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One thing that basic courtesy and everyday professionalism demands is, that nobody here puts him/herself in a particular good light by jumping on a piano brand which someone else just reported to be to his/her liking.

I,myself, just congratulated someone in another thread for buying a "beautiful Petrof",although after having been a dealer for this brand for a short time in the past,I had never grown to be a total fan of this particular brand myself.

And -in reverse - not everybody who has come to my store jumps up and down for never having played any better pianos around anywhere.

[except those who say they didn't..... ]

So,lets stay a little civil and congratulate those who have found or bought a piano which happens to suit their very own character and soul!

And show perhaps, a little of our own......

norbert

Norbert,

Point well taken! I wrote a couple things above that were a bit more harsh than I intended, especially since I was honestly trying to defend YC and the JP. So, I went back and softened them. Nitpicking the JP next to an RX doesn't really make any sense, considering the different price ranges.

I confess that I couldn't wait to read what you would have to say about the "beautiful Petrof", especially remembering some of your more outspoken and colorful comments about them in the past, lol! Very tactfully done. And I think your comment on the other thread may be right, I bet that Petrof is better now than when it was new. Negative comments aren't a concern for me, though, so don't feel like you have to hold back - nobody else here (except KB) has played this particular Petrof! :p

Ryan

After reading all the Pramberger debates on this forum, I finally played one last week. First time I've ever seen one. This was a JP-175, the 5'9" model. I was rather disappointed. Frankly, it was mediocre at best. The treble lacked tone quality and overall it was hard to coax any nuances out of the instrument's action. Also I didn't think the bass and treble were very well balanced. On the other hand, it didn't have that awful tinny quality that characterizes Yamahas. It wasn't awful sounding, but it wasn't anything special either. One thing that was weird... it felt to me like there wasn't enough key travel. Like the keys were bottoming out before I expected them to do so. I don't know if that was just me or something to do with the instrument.
Anyways... just my opinion. And yes, I know I'm basing it on just one time on one sample, and who knows how well it was prepped. But if this is what one can expect, I wouldn't buy it.

Again... just my opinion, no flames please!

It wasn't prepped. That is how they are out of the box. I know, I've seen a few right after they were uncrated and this is how all of them were. I know of other makes of pianos that arrive in this condition. Strangely, only some are criticized because of it.

Ryan

I agree with Ryan, it probably wasn't prepped. The Pramberger Signature Series instruments are generally not very well prepped at the factory. Keep in mind...neither is Steinway! Both companies as well as several other choose to have their dealers do the prep.

The Pramberger Plantinum Series (J Series) ARE very well prepped before they arrive at the dealership.

However, ALL pianos can be improved significantly by GOOD dealer regulation and voicing.

Which makes this thing harder and harder to compare.

heck, how many times did a guy wake up in the morning wondering what he took to bed before make up.

His own ,I mean of course.....

norbert

Hay, that's great. I have the same one. It's a wonderful piano. Personally, I think the PG-213 is the best thing out there in it's class.

And Kevin101,

For what it's worth, the YC is a great piano for what you pay. If the piano is well prepped and you like it, then it's the piano for you.

Listen to the comments on the board, most are really excellent and some are really crap--you don't have to be genius to figure out which is which.

Buy what you fall in love with, but with a bit of caution. In the end it's only your money and your happiness that matter.

Originally posted by Steve Cohen:
[QUOTE] Mark, the C3 sells for more that the 6'10" JP208 in most markets, so while some might prefer the C3 over the JP185 it isn't a very fair comaprison. You also compare the JP175 to the RX2. In most markets, for the price of the RX2 you could get a PG208 or even maybe a JP208. [QUOTE][/b]

Steve, I'm sure you fooled a few people with this pitch. But, a bigger piano for the same money it doesn't assure better quality or good performance in the long run.

We all know you don't sell Japanese pianos.We also know, they can cause some headaches if you don't have them.
Therefore dealers come-up with gimmicks, like yours. But in reality they have proven their quality over the years, something YC can't do.

iyi is doing his thing. As I said, you don't have to be a genius...JUST FOLLOW THE MONEY.

TomK, these are facts no BS!
Everybody knows it, unless you are selling YC. Are you?
I had you in a better category, don’t let me down

Iyiyiyi,

I have already long ago exposed you as nothing more than an ignorant, third rate Yamaha salesman, so what say you shut up and let these people have their discussion. You don't have anything worthwhile to add to *any* piano discussion, because you don't know anything about pianos except what you read in your brand's sales brochures the day they hired you.

Here it comes who I was looking for…Larry. So, whats going on pal?
Did you come to the rescue of your children?
I thought by now you had something else in your life, besides trying to be the “master” of the PIANOWORLD. Are you still given full prepping to Pearl Rivers or dusting antiques?

I sell only Britany Spears coffee mugs in the third world. (Well a little bit more than that, but mostly things in the area.)

iyi---I LOVE my Young Chang.

So sue me!

Come on TomK! No just because you do business with the third world you have to own a third world piano. Didn't you have a S&S?

In response to Iyi’s first post in this thread;

_________________________________________________

Originally posted by iyi bir piano:
[QB] Wait for few years and hear those noisy actions; besides they go out of regulation so bad.
I played a few of the new YC, same problem with the touch. They still can’t make a well-balanced keyboard. Voicing is another problem they don’t play consistently across all registers, I think more than voicing is the quality of the hammers.

__________________________________________________

I feel it important to educate other’s so as not to be mislead as to the quality of Young Chang’s actions and action parts. All Young Chang JP grand piano actions are currently made by Renner, some with all Renner parts and assembled by Young Chang, others with full Renner-built actions, depending upon the model. Since Iyi’s malignance is spread with such a broad brush one can only deduce that he doesn’t care for the quality of Renner actions. It would be only appropriate then for Iyi to also mention the actions in all of the other pianos produced with Renner actions, many considered by most to be “top-tier”. It is certainly his prerogative to exercise a lack of keen acumen but I must clarify this point if only just for others. I suppose if Yamaha or Kawai came with Renner actions he might be less inclined to disparage pianos using them. Personally, I’d rather have the same brand of German-crafted action used in my piano which is also found in Fazioli, Bechstein, Schimmel, Mason & Hamlin and Baldwin Artist Series pianos (to name a few), than to have an action made in Japan that might even be (God forbid), PLASTIC!

My good friend iyi bir:

Having this most un-english name to begin with, whilst being....strangely anonymous and evasive about all other personal data.....working from hidden or unknown places and...being primitively ignorant about worldly matters including pianos ...whilst,at the same time,deeply adulating all Japanese products [including presumably Toyota landcruisers.. ]....

...I have come to the inalienable conclussion that you are - in reality -

.... Bin Laden!!

Re Japanese God made guns:

Ever checked out a Heckler&Koch or Usi sub??

norbert

Originally posted by Dino: It is typical for a salesperson that is selling YC to talk about the Renner components in the piano.
That is the first thing you’ll hear at YC dealers. It is a way to justify the fact that is built in Korea or China.

Actions and Components are built to different specifications and price point. Renner actions and parts are built to the specs of the manufacture.

Components are not the only factor to make a quality piano. Design, workmanship and attention to detail are also important.
What is the use of the full Renner action when keys are not well balanced or the tone of the piano is undesirable?

As far as the plastic components in Japanese pianos, I don’t see any problem most likely is an advantage.

By the way Dino before you think of educating people, try to get more info about other pianos. I know you were taught to say, “ YC pianos don’t use plastic parts, they use Renner parts” “ These parts are use in some of the most expensive pianos in the world”

You should know better than that. First over all everybody knows that plastic parts it is not a problem.
Then, if Renner parts are everything on a piano. How come the action in YC does not feel the same as in a CW (grand), Hamburg S&S, Seiler etc?

Don’t make yourself look stupid in front of your customers, buyers are more informed now days. Sell your pianos for what they are, *cheap* pianos.

Bin Laden:

Ever tried a Mauser?

Heard some of the rocket launchers your pals are using in the Afgahn mountains are of [North]Korean descent!

Nix good?

norbert

I'm going to step up to the bat on Young Chang, since I've had recent occasion to play a few. I'm counting the Prambergers in here too since I've also played those.

I was generally impressed! Actually found them better to my liking than most Yamahas which is saying something. The character of the sound is what I liked better in all sections.

I'm beginning to suspect that if you start out with something that's decent, you can get a lot out of how a piano is prepped and if I managed to get a good tech (which I could count on at least two, one who likes to do action regulations while the other prefers voicing) then I could really make a piano that was ok into something really nice.

But would I buy one? You know I had the same question after playing a nice Samick WSG. It was very nice to play and sounded better than I would have expected, but... I just didn't get that particular sensation that's like an ache to own it. Which pianos have given me that sensation?

That famous side by side comparison between a Hamburg Steinway O 5'10" grand and Darrell Fandrich's 185 6'1" grand. Fandrich took it. I've thought about this ever since.

An August Forster 190 that I could have bought for $10K less than suggested retail price in ebony (which I prefer) though it was high gloss (which would be ok though I prefer the satin finish. It was a gem.

An Estonia 190 for 10K less than the Forster that was "perfection" though I still wonder how it would stack up against Fandrich's.

Many rebuilt Steinways of various models, M's, O's, B's. These are frequently each a unique universe in themselves.

Mason & Hamlin BB's are simply awesome, a recent rebuilt AA really got me, but it was in some exquisite wood that distracted me too easily. I'm a black piano man. The A's are nice but none has really grabbed me.

A Feurich "salon grand" 5'8" that was really nice sounding and fun to play.

A Sauter 185 that was also really responsive with a clear well balanced tone throughout. This one made me seem (to one observer anyway) as though I was a better pianist than I really am.

I think the comparison between a Young Chang and a good Baldwin is apt and what I've said about prep at the top is certainly true of Baldwins too. I've had occasion to sit behind some well prepped Baldwins that really gave me the ache. I just couldn't believe that the complexity of tones I was getting out of the instrument were coming from a mere Baldwin. In fact I'd still consider at least recommending Baldwins, especially the older ones from say the 1940's and 1950's, though since I've already owned one, I'd prefer something else for myself.

Iyi,

Please re-read my post. I was strictly responding to your comments about the actions in your quote below:
_________________________________________________

Originally posted by iyi bir piano:[QB] Wait for few years and hear those noisy actions; besides they go out of regulation so bad.I played a few of the new YC, same problem with the touch. They still can’t make a well-balanced keyboard. Voicing is another problem they don’t play consistently across all registers, I think more than voicing is the quality of the hammers.
__________________________________________________

Let me preface the following by saying; I by no means consider myself an expert and pale in comparison to many in this forum on the subject of piano engineering. That being said:

Your comments were in regard to Young Chang's actions, many of which are either completely built by Renner or use exclusively Renner supplied parts. To disparage them is to disparage Renner. Even though Renner does make actions to manufacturers specifications it is done primarily to accommodate the many different scales of piano that exist. I’m sure that even you’d agree that an action produced for a piano that is 6’1” is not going to fit properly in a piano that is 6’3” to put it simply. Renner still sticks it’s name on every action that they build and common sense and economics dictate that they are not going to produce numerous different whippens for example, to accommodate different qualities of action. Renner makes ONE grade of action. They use Hornbeam for all of their action parts. The only exceptions to these rules I believe are the hammer moldings. Young Chang and Schimmel prefer Walnut hammer moldings. Baldwin calls for Maple, Bosendorfer Hornbeam, etc. These particulars I am fairly sure of but it is hard to keep abreast of changes that occur within different lines. Other variances in manufacturing specs. can be found in the felts (harder vs. softer) and the use of under-felts or not. Regardless, none of these variations would explain the “noisy actions” and “problem with touch” or “voicing” that you refer to not to mention your claim that they “don’t play consistently across all registers”.

I made no claim of YC’s using “no plastic parts” as you’ve stated. As a matter of fact, to continue your education, Young Chang actually uses plastic regulation-buttons in their vertical pianos. Imagine! I was merely making light of plastic parts in Japanese pianos. There was no discount as to their quality however, there are other concerns I do have as to their use. I imagine that millions of years in the future, when talking apes unearth cities in Japan, they’ll find millions of ABS parts still in functioning order!

I must commend your efforts however as I know it is difficult to converse intelligently in what I assume is your second language and it is evident that you try hard to do this. Unfortunately for me, I may often “look stupid in front of my customers” and I’m sure that there are many who know me that think that I have looked stupid from birth. Fortunately for me however, it is not too often that I sound stupid, even in my second language.

Class dismissed.