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Hi,

as promised in another thread I have been to the local piano dealer this afternoon for a quite lengthy test of several DPs and stage pianos, along with a comarison of several APs.

My original intent was to test drive the new Yamaha CP-1, but unfortunately it's not yet available, and the salesman couldn't give me an arriving date either... frown

Anyway, so I had lots of time to play all the others... I literally played through almost all the DPs they had, except for the stuff that obviously was nothing I would consider (like Technics and Casio, although Casio seems to have some very interesting stuff for people who are on a budget.

This is what I tried:
Kawai CA63 (just for comparison although I own it)
Kawai CA93 for the additional escapement effect in the keyboard
Kawai CA51 (for comparison of new RM3 keyboard and sound with the old keyboard and sound)
Roland HP-307 (finally I got my fingers on one after Dewsters technical review and others positive feedback)
Roland V-Piano (Is that modeling really that great?)
Yamaha CLP-370 (after a while and get used to Kawai sound I wanted to compare with my "old" favorite)
Yamaha CVP-509 (flagship with the same sound engine on DPs as CLP-380)
Avant Grand N3 (First time!! A must-try!!)

Then I played a lot of the available acoustic uprights and a KAWAI acoustic grand for comparison of digital versus analog keyboard and sound.

I played all the DP with a decent headphone, all the acoustics (naturally!) and the Avant Grand N3 were played without headphones.

Of course I have to say that I might be biased in favor of the Kawai CA63 since I own it, just that you know.

These are my impressions after playing these DP with direct comparison:

I first played the HP-307, because after all I heard in this forum this could have been the most interesting DP. First of all, the keyboard is really something different than the CA63 keyboard: It's heavier, and you have to press the key down deeper to get a tone. It was much more difficult to me to reach the correct volume on notes, but of course this is also a matter of adaption. But it was a lot more difficult to play very softly and at the same time quickly up and down the keyboard. This is something that works amazingly well on the CA63 keyboard.
The sound was, well, decent. I know this doesn't sound enthusiastic, but it is like it is: Its a mellow sound with lots of different effects on it, but it's just mellow. You have to press the key very hard to get a bright sound, and this happens all of a sudden, it's difficult to get something in between... It helps a little bit to set the touch of the keyboard from "normal" to "light", but it's still a very different keyboard feeling as the CA63, for my taste not better. Not really convincing. The damper effect: It sound quite real, but also quite light. So I set the intensity from 5 to 10/10, but that produced an almost "chorus"-like effect, not realistic at all. You can set the damper effect of CA63 to maximum without this "overprocessing" feeling.
One word of caution: For a real fundamental judgement I would have need to play a little bit longer with it.

Then I played the V-Piano. Well, at first it seemed that it was much superior to the HP-307. Maybe because of the good playability and reaction to velocity changes. But on the other side, after some playing time, I had the feeling that the mids are somehow on the thin side. But overall the playability of this one was way a tad better than the HP-307, the brightness does not come to suddenly after velocity goes up. I played some time with it (20-30 minutes), in this timeframe I didn't change any settings, just played with the first piano grand setting, just fiddled a little bit on the ambience adjuster, that's all. This shows that it's really playable, it was a lot of fun. On the contrary, from the beginning I had the feeling that the sound is not real, there is some artificial touch in it, I can't explain this better. Bottom line: This is a good beginning but nothing I would buy for lots of money. I have quite similar feelings to this piano sound as I have to the pianoteq sound which I just don't like (but the V-Piano sound is better).

Then I played the CLP-370:
It's the known, bright piano sound that many people love. And it sounds quite good when playing fast musical pieces. But: After reading Dewsters test, I checked the sustain of the notes: The higher notes have a really creepy looped sound. It starts very soon, you can clearly hear the start of the loop, and it's just plain static... Horrible! I'm sure I would have detected that after my buy and would have really regret the buy.
The keyboard again is a matter of taste: If you love a rather heavy keyboard that starts running after you have forced down the key a bit, then this is right for you. Ivory touch of the keys is very nice.

The CVP-509 is of course something completely different. I only tried this one because the CLP-380 was not available and this one should be quite similar on the DP part. And indeed: The sound was Yamaha-like and much better than the CLP-370 sound. Also the key action was much better than the CLP-370 (was this real or just imagination?). But this one costs a real bargain!

After that I played my CA63 again just for comparison purposes. An this time there was this big "aaaah"! The keyboard felt perfect, and also the sound was just right! Maybe is was because I'm used to it, who knows! But it festl just so - right compared to the others.
CA93 - This has an additional escapement mechanism on the keyboard. I don't care too much about that, I played in my life 90% piano uprights and max. 10% grand pianos, so I anyway don't care for this escapement feeling.
CA51 - It has a quite different keyboard feeling (much lighter and a little wobbly, and of course no ivory), and the sounds are much more mellow and not that much expressive.

After that I went to the acoustic piano department. While the DP department was quite crowded (about 6-8 people strolling around and trying this and that), I was the only one in the acoustic piano department. So I had no inhibition to play them all and very loud and expressive.

What I discovered at once was that almost all of the acoustics where heavily out of tune. Asking a salesman about this I got the answer that they know about this and that the reason for that is, that the door is opening and closing all the time, and they cannot tune all the acoustics every week. What the ...? The place for such an instrument at our home would be the space between two large windows/doors to our backyard which of course will be open all time... I don't want to pay endlessly for a tuner... Anyway, the sustain and the damperless play was really impressive, but these were my conclusions:

- Detune is a real pain
- The keyboard of acoustic pianos / grands are very different, from mediocre to very good
- Long sustain notes and damper effects etc. are the absolute strengths of acoustics (of course!)
- There are extreme quality differences between the cheapest model (2.500 Euro, Ravenstein?) and an expensive upright (Kawai and Schimmel upright). There was not one keyboard that felt the same.
I also tried a Yamaha model (can't remember which one it was, but it was more on the cheap side, 4.000 Euro?) which had a very good keyboard and sound (at least I can imagine it has a good sound if it would have been in tune). The keyboard action is although not comparable to the Yamaha DP action, it's was better.

All in all: After playing the acoustic I get really confirmend that buying the CA63 was the right choice: The keyboard feeling of it was quite comparable to an upright, and is somehow on par and within the wide range of keyboard feelings of the uprights.

Then I played the N3: This one is really an impressive instrument:
It really has a 100% feeling of a real piano, and it also sounds like one, when playing through the loudspeakers! Very impressive, you can play nuances very good! I played about 30 minutes on this one, because I couldn't stop. The price tag although is really hefty: It says 13.500 Euro (of course without any negotiation, don't know the end result). But if you have the money, this could be really a consideration!

One additional thing: Within the acoustic piano department this one (although digital) sounded best! But this was no wonder considering the other were all more or less out of tune! I really don't know how they want to sell any acoustic!

After all, this is my very subjective and very spontaneous ranking:

1 Avant Grand N3 (way ahead)
2 KAWAI CA63 / CA93
3 Roland V-Piano
4 Roland HP-307
5 Yamaha CVP-509
6 KAWAI CA51
7 Yamaha CLP-370

It's a real close call between V-Piano and HP-307. Both of them have areas in which they shine and some weaknesses.

My final conclusion of the visit was, that I made everything right with buying the CA63! It's the best sounding and especially the best keyboard action in this price range! Furthermore all others, except CA51, are more expensive.

Hope this review helps you a little bit with your decision making, but always remember: Only actual playing and comparing shows you which DP is for you!

Last edited by kawaian; 03/05/10 07:14 PM.

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I'll be very interested in trying a Kawai CA63...the dealers I visited while in Eastern Canada this week, Long & McQuade, did not carry the line...just Roland, Yamaha and Korg.

I can sympathize with the tuning issues on acoustics...you have to have a very stable environment in your home, or it's tuner madness.

I was lucky as I knew a Yamaha clinician who had a CP-1...they aren't in the stores in Canada till the end of this month, or even April.

Kawaian, does the CA63 use a wooden keyboard?

Snazzy


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Yes, the CA63 does indeed use a wooden keyboard, something I like very much (it's brand new, so it still smells like wood when you open the case!).

So I'm waiting to try a CP1 while you're waiting for a CA63... smile


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Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
I was lucky as I knew a Yamaha clinician who had a CP-1...they aren't in the stores in Canada till the end of this month, or even April.


L&M has one in downtown vancouver set up next to a v-piano, and has had it for at least 2 weeks that I know of

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Originally Posted by MarcoM
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
I was lucky as I knew a Yamaha clinician who had a CP-1...they aren't in the stores in Canada till the end of this month, or even April.


L&M has one in downtown vancouver set up next to a v-piano, and has had it for at least 2 weeks that I know of


Really! They aren't on the east coast at all...I was in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick....and not a one in any of the stores.

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Originally Posted by kawaian
...I have been to the local piano dealer this afternoon for a quite lengthy test of several DPs and stage pianos, along with a comarison of several APs....

Kawai CA63 (just for comparison although I own it)
Kawai CA93 for the additional escapement effect in the keyboard
Kawai CA51 (for comparison of new RM3 keyboard and sound with the old keyboard and sound)
Roland HP-307 (finally I got my fingers on one after Dewsters technical review and others positive feedback)
Roland V-Piano (Is that modeling really that great?)
Yamaha CLP-370 (after a while and get used to Kawai sound I wanted to compare with my "old" favorite)
Yamaha CVP-509 (flagship with the same sound engine on DPs as CLP-380)
Avant Grand N3 (First time!! A must-try!!)


For more reviews and comparisons between the top cabinet style digital piano lines of Kawai, Roland and Yamaha, please see also:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1363086/The

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Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
I'll be very interested in trying a Kawai CA63...the dealers I visited while in Eastern Canada this week, Long & McQuade, did not carry the line...just Roland, Yamaha and Korg.


There are many places in the world where it is impossible to play a Kawai. Further proof that being part of a huge, multinational consumer products marketing and distribution company like Yamaha is an enormous advantage for a digital piano compared to being part of a relatively small acoustic piano maker like Kawai.

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@kawaian,

thanks for your review - very informative!

A few questions, if you don't mind:

(1) From the description it seems you don't like the HP307 very much, and that you do like the CVP-509. But then in your final rating you place the HP307 in front of the CVP-509. Can you clarify how those two compare in your opinion in terms of sound and action?

(2) Did you play the N3 via headphones, too? I'm asking because that would be a fairer comparison to the other DPs. E.g. maybe you liked the N3 so much because of its action and the speakers, but maybe via headphones the sound wouldn't have been (much?) better than the other DPs? Haven't had a chance to play the N3 myself yet. Maybe Yamaha really pulled out all the stops on this one and doesn't use stretching/looping at all?

(3) How does the CVP-509 action compare to the CA63 action in your opinion? You mentioned that you liked the Ivory on the CVP-509. How does it compare to the Ivory on the CA63?

(4) Can you say some more things about CA63 vs. CA93? Additional sounds? Speaker system? Is there nothing that makes you want a CA93 over your CA63?

(5) Please add a post when you've had a chance to test play a CP1 or CP5... smile

Thanks!

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Originally Posted by kawaian
Of course I have to say that I might be biased in favor of the Kawai CA63 since I own it, just that you know.

In general, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that the "play the one that feels and sounds right to you" kind of subjective testing results mostly in people choosing whatever is closest to what they are used to hearing or playing.
Originally Posted by kawaian

These are my impressions after playing these DP with direct comparison:

I first played the HP-307, because after all I heard in this forum this could have been the most interesting DP. First of all, the keyboard is really something different than the CA63 keyboard: It's heavier, and you have to press the key down deeper to get a tone. It was much more difficult to me to reach the correct volume on notes, but of course this is also a matter of adaption. But it was a lot more difficult to play very softly and at the same time quickly up and down the keyboard. This is something that works amazingly well on the CA63 keyboard.

That is interesting, particularly given that one of the most consistent critiques of the Kawai on other forums and threads here is the feeling that one is balancing uncomfortably on knife's edge between mp and ff.
Originally Posted by kawaian

The sound was, well, decent. I know this doesn't sound enthusiastic, but it is like it is: Its a mellow sound with lots of different effects on it, but it's just mellow. You have to press the key very hard to get a bright sound, and this happens all of a sudden, it's difficult to get something in between... It helps a little bit to set the touch of the keyboard from "normal" to "light", but it's still a very different keyboard feeling as the CA63, for my taste not better. Not really convincing. The damper effect: It sound quite real, but also quite light. So I set the intensity from 5 to 10/10, but that produced an almost "chorus"-like effect, not realistic at all. You can set the damper effect of CA63 to maximum without this "overprocessing" feeling.
One word of caution: For a real fundamental judgement I would have need to play a little bit longer with it.

I also found the Roland in the past to sound sometimes overprocessed and muddily artificial. The Super Natural sound is more realistic for me.
Originally Posted by kawaian

Then I played the V-Piano. Well, at first it seemed that it was much superior to the HP-307. Maybe because of the good playability and reaction to velocity changes. But on the other side, after some playing time, I had the feeling that the mids are somehow on the thin side. But overall the playability of this one was way a tad better than the HP-307, the brightness does not come to suddenly after velocity goes up. I played some time with it (20-30 minutes), in this timeframe I didn't change any settings, just played with the first piano grand setting, just fiddled a little bit on the ambience adjuster, that's all. This shows that it's really playable, it was a lot of fun.

For me the VPiano is also much more fun to play than the HP307 and the keybed feels more solid.
Originally Posted by kawaian

Then I played the CLP-370:...
The keyboard again is a matter of taste: If you love a rather heavy keyboard that starts running after you have forced down the key a bit, then this is right for you. Ivory touch of the keys is very nice.

I find the Yamaha keyboard to be quite good, but the sound does indeed sound dead, especially if you have been playing with pianoteq and regularly play acoustic.
...
Originally Posted by kawaian
...CA93 - This has an additional escapement mechanism on the keyboard. ...

I didn't realize that the escapement effect which Roland has in all of their HP models is only included in the CA93, particularly considering the fact that the key selling factor for the Kawai is the keyboard not the piano sound.
Originally Posted by kawaian

...
What I discovered at once was that almost all of the acoustics where heavily out of tune.

It boggles the mind how many piano stores do not make any serious attempt at all to prep and tune the instruments on their floor.
Originally Posted by kawaian

All in all: After playing the acoustic I get really confirmend that buying the CA63 was the right choice: The keyboard feeling of it was quite comparable to an upright, and is somehow on par and within the wide range of keyboard feelings of the uprights.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-purchase_rationalization wink
Originally Posted by kawaian

Then I played the N3: This one is really an impressive instrument:
It really has a 100% feeling of a real piano, and it also sounds like one, when playing through the loudspeakers! Very impressive, you can play nuances very good! I played about 30 minutes on this one, because I couldn't stop. The price tag although is really hefty: It says 13.500 Euro (of course without any negotiation, don't know the end result). But if you have the money, this could be really a consideration!

Agreed. The AvantGrand feels great. I hope they come out with a silent version using the CPx+1 tone generation capability in future.

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Originally Posted by madshi
@kawaian,

thanks for your review - very informative!

A few questions, if you don't mind:

(1) From the description it seems you don't like the HP307 very much, and that you do like the CVP-509. But then in your final rating you place the HP307 in front of the CVP-509. Can you clarify how those two compare in your opinion in terms of sound and action?


Well... Right after my tour I just expressed my feelings without attempting to do an structure etc. on the review. So please don't consider this a real complete review, it's just some impressions after a long afternoon of trying this and that.

Especially in case of the HP307 the negative touch comes more from a slight disappointment since the HP307 got so much praise here on the forum. In contrary the Yamaha met my expectations. So all in all, still the HP307 is a very good DP which in m opinion has superior sound over the CVP-509. On the other side the 509 has a completely different concept, if I had the choice I would buy a 509 to also fun play with all the very nice accompaniment functions, the great TFT screen, the touch and the design. In this case I might even be able to live with a lower quality piano sound... I was also rather disappointed by the quality of the make of the Roland. The slider was not smooth at all....

Originally Posted by madshi

(2) Did you play the N3 via headphones, too? I'm asking because that would be a fairer comparison to the other DPs. E.g. maybe you liked the N3 so much because of its action and the speakers, but maybe via headphones the sound wouldn't have been (much?) better than the other DPs? Haven't had a chance to play the N3 myself yet. Maybe Yamaha really pulled out all the stops on this one and doesn't use stretching/looping at all?


Unfortunately not, there was no headphone on hand in the acoustic piano area, so I compared them actually with the acoustic pianos I was playing. Also one of the strengths of the N3 is the exceptional loudspeaker system. Lets see if I can catch up with this next time.

Originally Posted by madshi

(3) How does the CVP-509 action compare to the CA63 action in your opinion? You mentioned that you liked the Ivory on the CVP-509. How does it compare to the Ivory on the CA63?


Well the ivory felt a little bit better than the ivory of the CA63 key, but that is just a minor point. All in all I like the action of the CA63 much better.

Originally Posted by madshi

(4) Can you say some more things about CA63 vs. CA93? Additional sounds? Speaker system? Is there nothing that makes you want a CA93 over your CA63?


The only differences between CA63 and CA93 are:
- CA93 has escapement in it's keyboard
- CA93 has a resonance board so the loudspeaker sound should be more realistic. Didn't check this out since the DP area was too crowded for such a test
- CA93 has some additional sound (which I really don't care about)

Otherwise they are 100% identical. The only interesting thing to me is the resonance board, but since I mostly play with headphones I don't want to pay so much more for this feature.


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Originally Posted by theJourney
Originally Posted by kawaian
Of course I have to say that I might be biased in favor of the Kawai CA63 since I own it, just that you know.

In general, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that the "play the one that feels and sounds right to you" kind of subjective testing results mostly in people choosing whatever is closest to what they are used to hearing or playing.


I actually play a lot acoustic uprights at different locations, I play a Yamaha CLP-950 at our local church on Sunday worship. The only place I play the CA63 is at my home. So I'm really used to acoustics and other DP brands. I'm very strong in my opinion that the Kawai RM3 is the most acoustic like keyboard action currently on the market.

Originally Posted by theJourney

Originally Posted by kawaian

These are my impressions after playing these DP with direct comparison:

I first played the HP-307, because after all I heard in this forum this could have been the most interesting DP. First of all, the keyboard is really something different than the CA63 keyboard: It's heavier, and you have to press the key down deeper to get a tone. It was much more difficult to me to reach the correct volume on notes, but of course this is also a matter of adaption. But it was a lot more difficult to play very softly and at the same time quickly up and down the keyboard. This is something that works amazingly well on the CA63 keyboard.

That is interesting, particularly given that one of the most consistent critiques of the Kawai on other forums and threads here is the feeling that one is balancing uncomfortably on knife's edge between mp and ff.


This is not what I experienced. It's important not to set the keyboard touch to the setting "dynamic", that is way too much chance in dynamic, but the setting "normal" is very good. After three weeks of playing I now have created my own keyboard touch using the auto feature, and this setting is even better. I now use it all the time for piano playing, and it gives you great and consistent dynamic playing throughout the whole range. BTW, I have a tendency to play rather soft than heavy, so this might also be needed to take into consideration.

Originally Posted by theJourney

Originally Posted by kawaian
...CA93 - This has an additional escapement mechanism on the keyboard. ...

I didn't realize that the escapement effect which Roland has in all of their HP models is only included in the CA93, particularly considering the fact that the key selling factor for the Kawai is the keyboard not the piano sound.


Well, since I'm mainly used to playing acoustic uprights, this is no big deal for me. I actually like this keyboard better than the CA93 with escapement. But this could really be a matter of getting used to, since I recognize that the piano grands at the dealer Yesterday had the same subtle escapement.

Originally Posted by theJourney

Originally Posted by kawaian

All in all: After playing the acoustic I get really confirmend that buying the CA63 was the right choice: The keyboard feeling of it was quite comparable to an upright, and is somehow on par and within the wide range of keyboard feelings of the uprights.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-purchase_rationalization wink


Hehe, I know this! But it's real: I have no buyers remorse, what I sometimes had in the past, even with expensive purchases. So I'm not the kind of person that lies to himself to have a good feeling about a purchase. See my other posts about shortcomings of the CA63! But this time I really thought that the HP307 could give me a hard time not to keep m CA63 but to switch over to the Roland. But: No way! grin

Last edited by kawaian; 03/06/10 08:24 AM.

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Originally Posted by kawaian
Originally Posted by madshi

(2) Did you play the N3 via headphones, too? I'm asking because that would be a fairer comparison to the other DPs. E.g. maybe you liked the N3 so much because of its action and the speakers, but maybe via headphones the sound wouldn't have been (much?) better than the other DPs? Haven't had a chance to play the N3 myself yet. Maybe Yamaha really pulled out all the stops on this one and doesn't use stretching/looping at all?

Unfortunately not, there was no headphone on hand in the acoustic piano area, so I compared them actually with the acoustic pianos I was playing. Also one of the strengths of the N3 is the exceptional loudspeaker system. Lets see if I can catch up with this next time.

Kawaian, if you plan on coming back to do A-B on the N3 with headphones versus the other models, do you know if the store's headphones are pretty decent? If not, you may want to bring your own favorite headphones from home. A decent pair of headphones with good low frequency response will do a lot of justice to the N3's nice, warm bass notes.


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I have a Beyerdynamic DT770-pro at home, and I can get pretty much every headphone from Sennheiser, AKG and Beyer at that store, no problem.

Last edited by kawaian; 03/06/10 03:25 PM.

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