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Originally Posted by Piano*Dad
...I do not think our moderators are turning a blind eye to holocaust denial....


Sadly, I have personal proof that this has happened, Piano*Dad. At the time I gave forum management the benefit of the doubt, but now that I can compare it with the situation of Sotto Voce of which I know every detail, I realise that their sense of justice is horribly skewed, if it exists at all.


Last edited by Mary-Rose; 01/10/10 08:49 PM.
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Originally Posted by Piano*Dad
Well, not long if you keep this up.

Look, I generally agree with your POV here, but I'm not comfortable with how far you are pushing it. I do not think our moderators are turning a blind eye to holocaust denial or homophobia. Yes, they have allowed some things to stand too long, but to me that suggests their basic tendency toward moderation in moderating and patience in waiting things out.

They have zapped specific homophobic posts, for instance, (coming from our word-wrap challenged friend as one example), but they have not tended to ban anyone on the basis of these zapped posts. Reasonable people can disagree about whether a single zapped post (or two or three) merits a lifetime ban. In general, the moderating team here has tried to avoid that sort of precipitous action. I'm not sure I would have been so reticent, in their shoes. But that's how they have called it. They have taken action against this sort of behavior, but they seem to bend over backward to avoid being put in that situation. And they have talked to people when hot heads overreact.

I too think that some accommodation should be reached that allows Steven to come back. Perhaps that will happen over time. Those of us who think this should happen have made our will clear. Now we need to calm down a bit and take stock. Continued verbal challenges may not be the best approach.


This is very well-reasoned and -stated. What a lot of us want is to return to good, thoughtful discussions of music, with Steven's reinstatement. This cause is not helped by ratcheting up the language (e.g. "Stasi"). I disagree with the moderators' decision, and strongly disagree with their closing down these threads, but let's acknowledge that they're good people trying to do the right thing in a complicated situation. We should certainly continue to apply pressure and make our desires felt. But not in escalating language. It just doesn't *work*.

-Jason

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Originally Posted by Piano*Dad
Originally Posted by Mary-Rose
.....I wonder how long this thread will last before the Stasi step in with their jackboots?

Well, not long if you keep this up.
Look, I generally agree with your POV here, but I'm not comfortable with how far you are pushing it. I do not think our moderators are turning a blind eye to holocaust denial or homophobia. Yes, they have allowed some things to stand too long, but to me that suggests their basic tendency toward moderation in moderating and patience in waiting things out....

FWIW, +1

Quote
....I too think that some accommodation should be reached that allows Steven to come back....Those of us who think this should happen have made our will clear. Now we need to calm down a bit and take stock. Continued verbal challenges may not be the best approach.

Ditto

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Originally Posted by Piano*Dad
Originally Posted by Mary-Rose
Two threads in support of Sotto Voce have been closed by heavy-handed forum management. They allow Holocaust denial to be advertised on the forum without demur, but when it comes to a respected an openly gay poster using a naughty word backchannel - zap! It's a good excuse to get rid of him.

I wonder how long this thread will last before the Stasi step in with their jackboots?


Well, not long if you keep this up.

Look, I generally agree with your POV here, but I'm not comfortable with how far you are pushing it. I do not think our moderators are turning a blind eye to holocaust denial or homophobia. Yes, they have allowed some things to stand too long, but to me that suggests their basic tendency toward moderation in moderating and patience in waiting things out.

They have zapped specific homophobic posts, for instance, (coming from our word-wrap challenged friend as one example), but they have not tended to ban anyone on the basis of these zapped posts. Reasonable people can disagree about whether a single zapped post (or two or three) merits a lifetime ban. In general, the moderating team here has tried to avoid that sort of precipitous action. I'm not sure I would have been so reticent, in their shoes. But that's how they have called it. They have taken action against this sort of behavior, but they seem to bend over backward to avoid being put in that situation. And they have talked to people when hot heads overreact.

I too think that some accommodation should be reached that allows Steven to come back. Perhaps that will happen over time. Those of us who think this should happen have made our will clear. Now we need to calm down a bit and take stock. Continued verbal challenges may not be the best approach.


I agree with Piano*Dad. Let's be sure that we ourselves don't slip to the level of the posters that do annoy us. Of course, I am not talking about Steven here!


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Originally Posted by Horowitzian
Let's be sure that we ourselves don't slip to the level of the posters that do annoy us.


I've been begging people to do exactly that for a month or two, but it's fallen on deaf ears. People took the bait over and over again, then complained that I wasn't being heavy-handed enough.

I sort of gave up trying to make people happy a couple weeks ago. smirk


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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Originally Posted by Kreisler
[...]
I've been begging people to do exactly that for a month or two, but it's fallen on deaf ears. People took the bait over and over again, then complained that I wasn't being heavy-handed enough.

[...]


Which eventually results in the hammer being dropped...a lose-lose situation for everyone. frown


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This forum is the best moderated/run forum I know. I have had my own forum for a few years now and it is no where as big as this one so can appreciate the difficulty in having to deal with all the personalities, trolls and flamers. You cannot begin to please everyone. That said... I respect Piano Worlds decision. Were I to disagree I would PM the moderators and talk. If I still disagreed and so disliked the decision then I would leave. It's just a forum, not the real world. You can turn off a forum. smile

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Originally Posted by Peyton
You can turn off a forum. smile

But some of the addicts cannot....

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Quote
Were I to disagree I would PM the moderators and talk.


Been there. Done that. smile

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If there is consistency,

Keep your eye out for user

Ottos Cove

or perhaps

Nevets


....

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Originally Posted by Phlebas
I think the duel had a lot to do with establishing, and maintaining manners and good behavior among men in centuries past.
I know there are a few things I've said that I might have thought twice about if the consequence was coffee and pistols at dawn.
Maybe we should bring back the duel.
(not really)


No pistols. CAGE MATCH.

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sotto voce was gay? (not that I'm anti-gay or anything)


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I didn't know either. But then again, as I think he might be the first to say, there's a lot I don't know. ha

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Originally Posted by Debussy20
No pistols. CAGE MATCH.

I think even fewer people might get that than who knew "Brett Favre." ha

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Originally Posted by Mary-Rose
Originally Posted by Piano*Dad
...I do not think our moderators are turning a blind eye to holocaust denial....


Sadly, I have personal proof that this has happened, Piano*Dad. At the time I gave forum management the benefit of the doubt, but now that I can compare it with the situation of Sotto Voce of which I know every detail, I realise that their sense of justice is horribly skewed, if it exists at all.


Two points.
1. Holocaust denial? I must have missed those posts.
EDIT - OK, I did find what you were talking about. Agreed, antisemitism has no place on the forums.

2. Sexual orientation? That's not only nobody's business but also a ZERO factor in any decision regarding any member of this forum. I, myself, wouldn't even know anything about that except that it suddenly got thrown out as an issue in this debacle. And now that I do know, it's still not an issue with me (nor with any of the moderators).

Ken



Last edited by Ken Knapp; 01/12/10 03:58 AM.

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Originally Posted by Crow Wing
Originally Posted by Nikolas
just a note that as far as I know PartyPianist has been banned ......


Is PartyPianist really gone? This poster's style was unique and made extensive use of CAPITALIZED words for emphasis, adding "quotes" to single words, and adding (parenthetical comments within his/her sentences).
These are not all that unique.

They are fairly common within the hacker(as in computer knowledgeable) crowd. They probably aren't seen as often on Piano World, since it attracts a less technical crowd, but it is fairly common in some Internet subcultures.

The majority of that style comes from interacting with computers as well as the lack of bold and italics in plain text communication.

Clicky.


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Originally Posted by Ken Knapp
Originally Posted by Mary-Rose
Originally Posted by Piano*Dad
...I do not think our moderators are turning a blind eye to holocaust denial....


Sadly, I have personal proof that this has happened, Piano*Dad. At the time I gave forum management the benefit of the doubt, but now that I can compare it with the situation of Sotto Voce of which I know every detail, I realise that their sense of justice is horribly skewed, if it exists at all.


Two points.
1. Holocaust denial? I must have missed those posts.
EDIT - OK, I did find what you were talking about. Agreed, antisemitism has no place on the forums.

2. Sexual orientation? That's not only nobody's business but also a ZERO factor in any decision regarding any member of this forum. I, myself, wouldn't even know anything about that except that it suddenly got thrown out as an issue in this debacle. And now that I do know, it's still not an issue with me (nor with any of the moderators).

Ken




There was a guy who had a link in his sig to some awful holocaust denial site. Several people complained. The mods asked him to change the sig. He didn't, and was banned. It didn't happen in a microsecond - Frank was out of town, and there were some other dust ups at the same time being dealt with, etc. - but it was taken care of.

Sexual orientation? I have no idea where that came from. I know SV accused me of being homophobic after I disagreed with him on something (sorry, had no idea the guy is gay, and couldn't have cared less). I just considered the source, and laughed.


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Originally Posted by Debussy20
Originally Posted by Phlebas
I think the duel had a lot to do with establishing, and maintaining manners and good behavior among men in centuries past.
I know there are a few things I've said that I might have thought twice about if the consequence was coffee and pistols at dawn.
Maybe we should bring back the duel.
(not really)


No pistols. CAGE MATCH.


In this instance it would have been more likely we would have witnessed a LA CAGE AUX FOLLES MATCH.

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Originally Posted by theJourney
In this instance it would have been more likely we would have witnessed a LA CAGE AUX FOLLES MATCH.
Cover your ears Matt!

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For god's sake people - get a life.


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