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I appreciate the example, it really makes sense now.

And I'll lay off the theory for a bit, at least on the board.

Thanks again for all the time you all have put in.


"There is no such thing as a wrong note."
Art Tatum
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Sweep.. I'm just starting on jazz & blues... thanks for the chord progressions!!!


Michael

====

He is so solemn, detached and uninvolved he makes Mr. Spock look like Hunter S. Thompson at closing time.'
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Thanks, sweep. I was really getting concerned, as I had no clue what the frig a BbBbdim is.


markb--The Count of Casio
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Helps to know that when someone talks about the blues they mean -- 12 bars blues. It's simplest form being:

|I---|I---|I--|I--
|IV--|IV--|I--|I--
|V---|IV--|I--|I--

Compare this to Big Lip and you should see some evolution having taken place:

|I---|V/iii-|iii-|I--
|IV--|IVo---|I-V-|I-Idim
|V---|V/V---|V---|I-

...same thing different interpretation:

|I--|V/iii--|iii-|I-------
|IV-|V7b9/I-|I-V-|I-V7b9/V
|V--|V/V----|V---|I-------

Ebdim is the same chord as F7b9 in bar 6.
Bbdim is the same chord as C7b9 in bar 8. These aren't substitutions, they're honestly truly the same chord (spelled differently).
They function exactly the same, they're voicings are interchangeable. Dim chords function as V in this tune (and most other tunes).

Cool tune, I will try it at home tonight.


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Quote

F7 Chord FAC+E-gbd
Technically an F7 chord is F-A-C-Eb.

Remember your chords in relation to the Major scale, reason being that most people teach/learn these major scales before anything else.

Fmaj7 = stacked thirds - 1-3-5-7 all the way up the major scale = F-A-C-E

F7 = same as Fmaj7 except with a flatted 7th = F-A-C-Eb

Fm7 = same as F7 except with a flatted third = F-Ab-C-Eb

...when you learn something new its always best to relate it to something you already know.


Haywood
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The books I was referring to are:

Thelonius Monk: Monk Plays Standards - Contains transcriptions of Monk's versions of these standards. Some of the arrangements are tough for an absolute beginner to work through but they will do wonders to improve your reading and playing skills. I'm working my way through Just a Gigolo.

Thelonius Monk: Easy Piano Solos - Good book with arrangements that a beginner should be able to handle.

Miles Davis: Solo piano arrangements of 17 of his greatest songs - Many of his best are in this collections - Blue in Green (truly a beautiful song), So What, Somethin' Else, All Blues, 7 Steps to Heaven - Good book with a mix of challenging and easier arrangements.

Giants of Jazz Piano: a collection of works by the great jazz pianists including Bill Evans, Art Tatum, George Shearing, Dave Brubeck, etc. - I'm working on a couple of Bill Evans tunes in this book. Some of the stuff - particularly the Art Tatum tunes - are way beyond my abilities right now. But it gives me something to shoot for.

All of these books are available at sheetmusicplus.com
They also have specific collections of Bebop, Latin, and Cool jazz.

Hope the list helps and inspires.

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giles... We need to BACK OFF a little...(laughing) BOTH of us.. We're throwing too much at them too fast...Do you remember those frustrating years??

MarkB, Mikh and Notta... Are you making sense of this progression? I mean are you REALLY starting to hear it? ..the chord changes? This is really important for you. Once you get this progression under your belt, the sky is the limit and you will soon be playing like a professional....


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Sweep: "MarkB, Mikh and Notta... Are you making sense of this progression?"

To which progression are you referring? I'm familiar with the 12-bar blues. Other than that, I can't really keep up much with a lot of what you and hgiles have been saying before it gets overwhelming.

I'm going to focus on the circles of fourths and fifths and chord construction. My book also has me go through the ii V I or ii V i progression for all of the chords in all of the keys.


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Markb......Your book is right... the 2-5-1,
1-6-2-5-1, and the 1-3-6-2-5-1 are vital to playing jazz.

My point is do you really feel you have to learn these in all keys before you start playing music? I say no. Transposing to other keys will come in time as you learn different tunes, and later you will realize why.

I say grab a key your comfortable with, and use that as your strong key for now. May I suggest C, F, or Bb. Try big lip blues in Bb as I wrote earlier. If Bb dosen't work for now, go to C. If you have a handle on the 12 bar blues, this chord progression will open up a whole new musical world for you. If you need help transposing to C, holler and I'll re-write it for you....ok??

My point is my friend..... Start learning songs NOW, and put theory on the backburner, just a little bit. One day your brain will litterally pop, and all this stuff will make sense. Trust me


I try to live, love and laugh as much as I can every day, because every day may be my last
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I think my brain popped a long time ago.

The book has you play the 2-5-1 as an exercise, but it doesn't have you memorize it like it does the circles of 5ths and 4ths.


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mark, I haven't read this thread completely yet, so I may be repeating something that's already been said, but

2-5-1 and 6-2-5-1 and 3-6-2-5-1 ARE the circles of 5ths, or PART of the circle of 5ths, anyway.

5-1 is obvious just start clockwise one "hour" from the home key on the circle of 5ths clock. if in C start at G, then go back home

2-5-1 is just moving the starting point "one more hour" if in C start at D drop to G then back to C.

6-2-5-1 starts "3 hours away" A (is Vof) D(is Vof) G (is Vof) C

To kick the starting point another notch, what key is A the Vof ? .... answer is E, (which is the 3rd of the homekey C )
so 3-6-2-1 just follows the circle of 5ths starting "4 hours from C"


I put up a small Cof5th pix, so for a reference, and I hope this post wasn't too much of a "Well, Duhhhh" but here it is. On the other hand, if one of them little cartoon light-bulbs goes off above your head, well then I've done my good deed for the day and can go back outside and set some more cats on fire. :rolleyes:

My point was, if you've got the Circle memorized, you also have (as a subset) these real common progressions memorized. They work so well, and ARE so common BECAUSE they fall right out of the circle.

[img]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y174/rkvs1/circle_fifths.bmp[/img]

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Holy chord progressions, Batman, it's starting to make sense! I'm so dense sometimes--I really should have seen this coming. It's a little disappointing that I need people to show me every little step, but I'll take what I can get.

I knew about the circle, and I knew that there are standard jumps from the "home" chord, but I just never put it all together. Thanks, Bob!


markb--The Count of Casio
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Quote
Originally posted by hgiles:
Rhythm changes divided in A and B sections, only roots:
A: Bb-G-C-F-D-G-C-F
B: D-G-C-F

Do you see the portions of the circle of fourths in there yet? It should be a lot easier to visualize and memorize now.
wink


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Sorry, that was too subtle. I need pictures, charts, graphs, PowerPoint presentations with audio and video, pyrotechnics, etc. A plain, simple, perfectly-clear explanation just doesn't cut it for this doughhead sometimes. smile

I think it's now clear that I don't qualify as an AB Beginner jazz pianist.


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Sure you do, Mark....stop thinking like that.. You ARE a jazz pianist. Now you have the basic info you need, take little steps and go with it.
Work on that tune I gave you, compare it to the circle, and you'll understand what we've been talking about.

I do though feel a little "looped"....THAT circle to me is backwards


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Sweep - I usually read it to the left also. My teacher emphasizes that the most common progressions are in fourths, so that's how I practice scales and chords.

Sometimes I break away but it makes it easy if I think of everything relative to a 4th.

Those progressions are making a lot of sense.

Did you guys already say who recorded the big lip blues besides Eubie Blake? I've been looking and can't find any of his recorded versions.


"There is no such thing as a wrong note."
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Try Jamie Wight from New Orleans with John Royen at the piano. You can pull up either of them, and are both good friends of mine, which is how I learned it


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Quote
Originally posted by Sweep88:
I do though feel a little "looped"....THAT circle to me is backwards
Me too, I think of the clockwise direction as fourths G-C-F-Bb, etc...


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Hey notta and markb and elssa....how's it going?? Did you guys get frustrated and shoot yourselves??


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Still working on it slowly. My teacher has me doing scale tone 7ths so I can get the B section of in a Sentimental mood down.

I bought the Edly's Music Theory for practical people and it's been helping.

I'm still having trouble with harmonizing though and it's kind of frustrating. Other than that, still plugging away.


"There is no such thing as a wrong note."
Art Tatum
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