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#2597884 - 12/25/16 04:40 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]  
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wouter79 Offline
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Thanks ivorytux!


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#2598501 - 12/27/16 06:59 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: ivorytux]  
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semiactive Offline
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Originally Posted by ivorytux
* 5:30-6:18 the obvious changes in tone color between adjacent notes. It sounds like the attack is the same for about an octave, then switches for the next octave, and so on, rather than being unique to each note.

* 6:38-6:42 what sounds like velocity switching, which again should not be and issue in true physical modeling

Anyone have some thoughts on the above?

I had an opportunity to compare the spectral pan views of note progressions from RP401R (probably the same as in F120/130/140) and from HP603 (posted here by Lophiomys). As far as I understood it, two findings were obvious and interesting:
1) Evident sample stretching of HP603 in groups of about 4 notes. No visually noticeable stretching in RP401.
2) Much more rich pan patterns in RP401 as compared to HP603.

Given the fully modelled sound of the HP series, observation No 2 is to be expected, while observation No 1 is very astonishing. If I was to make a decision based on the spectral pan views I had been shown, I would definitely chose the sampled RP401 (or its current incarnation F140) over the modelled HP603.

Last edited by semiactive; 12/27/16 07:02 PM.
#2599560 - 12/31/16 07:39 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: slobajudge]  
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Originally Posted by slobajudge
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
My concern with DPBSD is that it's not very useful.

The tests and charts and graphs mean little by themselves. But given an explanation, they all point to the same thing: mediocre sound performance.

That conclusion could more easily be reached by simply putting fingers on the keys.

Yes, there are differences in the sounds of the various pianos. But the ears tell the story much better than the data.


Sorry Mac, don`t judge too hard, point on this forum is talking about pianos. I agree, ears tell the story, but one day some story and another day other story. So if we measure only by the ears we can shut down this forum completely. Personally, I find this topic interesting in the beginning, but later I was lost, length of topic is too much for me and some conclusions I already have.


DPBSD is not likely to be helpful for a piano artist.
DPBSD is fairly helpful resource in addition to other reviews for those who are fairly new to piano, having almost no or little experience with the instrument.
Especially this is the case if learning at least partly self-educated way. (In case there is a piano teacher going to teach like a dozen of hours a week or more, it is of course better to ask the teacher to help with choosing the right digital piano).


Kawai KDP-90
#2618777 - 02/28/17 04:53 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: MacMacMac]  
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mabraman Offline
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
My concern with DPBSD is that it's not very useful.

The tests and charts and graphs mean little by themselves. But given an explanation, they all point to the same thing: mediocre sound performance.

That conclusion could more easily be reached by simply putting fingers on the keys.

Yes, there are differences in the sounds of the various pianos. But the ears tell the story much better than the data.

What your ears hear can't be translated into objectivable words, DSPB's contents can.


Learning piano from scratch since September, 2012.
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#2639446 - 05/03/17 07:00 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]  
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I did my own analysis of PX-860, and it is exactly as PX-350, posted here, it uses the same sample set with 34 sample groups.
No need to redo the whole tests, it is the same thing in different box. For fun I later compared it to PX-5S - same sample.

[Linked Image]

There is no distinction (or very little) between velocity layers, the AIR does work indeed.

[Linked Image]

Last edited by oscar1; 05/03/17 07:27 PM.

Casio PX-860, PX-150, Casio XW-P1, Roland jd-xi
#2646950 - 05/25/17 12:57 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]  
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Rador Offline
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Is anyone planning to analyze the current crop of DP's?

#2646967 - 05/25/17 01:57 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]  
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Is it just me, or do we really not need more analysis?

Yes, Dewster's findings are dated, based as they are on pianos that are now old, or even out of production.
But the conclusions were largely universal:
1. Short decay times ... not like a real piano
2. Looping ... not like a real piano
3. Faulty sustain and sostenuto implementations in many pianos
4. ... and on and on
5. ... and on and on

My take has been ... just visit the shops, sit in front of a piano and play. You won't be duped into thinking this is a fine grand (or even a mediocre upright). So just pick what sounds good. The specs and tests won't tell you what sounds good.

A reboot of this effort will likely find numerical improvements in the items listed above. But they still won't tell you which piano sounds best.

The try-it-and-see method will.

#2647212 - 05/26/17 09:45 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: MacMacMac]  
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Is it just me, or do we really not need more analysis?

Looking below the hood of how digital piano synthesis progresses is very interesting on its own. Dewster developed a standardized benchmark and I would love to see Roland's new modeled pianos being measured against it, just to see what makes them different from previous generations.

The most interesting point in a benchmark's history is when the products tested surpass its criteria completely, so it loses its purpose. This might have happened already, but we don't know for sure.

Quote
My take has been ... just visit the shops, sit in front of a piano and play.

I don't think this thread has ever been a primary source for choosing a piano. Also visiting "shops" (esp. in plural form) can get pretty hard in some places.

#2647228 - 05/26/17 10:15 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: JoeT]  
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Originally Posted by JoeT

The most interesting point in a benchmark's history is when the products tested surpass its criteria completely, so it loses its purpose. This might have happened already, but we don't know for sure.


I think the DPBSD still has value, but the problem is that nobody has taken up the mantle. It'd be pretty easy to leverage the test to tell, for instance, whether the RD-2000 V-Piano engine is identical to the original V-pIano, or identical to the fully-modeled SN in the LX-17/FP-90 generation DPs. But it really needs a warm body to drive it, and we no longer have that, so this is quickly becoming a historical relic.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai MP11
#2647285 - 05/26/17 12:53 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]  
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I do wonder why Roland by itself would not run Drewster's analysis and openly demonstrate the qualities of their modeled piano sounds?
Also when I tried to learn about the new modeling technology about a year ago, I could not find any hard facts, which would satisfy my curiosity.

For the other big players, IMO they continue to try to sell to the masses the same old sampled/looped/layered sounds, cheaply assembled in in a developing country.
What would you expect from this starting point?

If any manufacturer would put some really sophisticated sampled sounds into their devices, you would hear about it without needing to search a lot for it. It would be in the range of multi GB of data storage. (probably check out Nord, Kurzweil, Korg and Dexibell)

I think, the DPBSD thread is very valuable, in revealing the quality of piano sounds inside digital pianos by hard facts, from where the customers can compare those to the marketing speak of the respective manufacturer.

A great pity that it seems, no one of us forumites has the qualification and spare time to continue Dewster's analysis...

#2647341 - 05/26/17 03:24 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: lophiomys]  
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Originally Posted by lophiomys
I do wonder why Roland by itself would not run Drewster's analysis and openly demonstrate the qualities of their modeled piano sounds?
Also when I tried to learn about the new modeling technology about a year ago, I could not find any hard facts, which would satisfy my curiosity.


I think, because for the most part, it is not marketable. What is marketable, is how the piano feels, sounds, and looks. Those who really care are a small subset of the entire market.

Some points are mentioned in some reviews, but there are a few points, and good or bad, are never mentioned.

Maybe I will take a look at doing some analysis. That would probably fit in with some video/demos that I would like to do also.

Personally, I think modeling is the way to go and what needs to happen for all digital pianos (Or a blend of sampling/modeling).

Modeling has come a long way in the guitar world, I would love to see more than just Roland or Pianoteq pick up the mantle there.

#2647411 - 05/26/17 06:43 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]  
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My earlier point is that the ears can do everything needed to assess a piano's sound.

Dewster's analysis, in the hands of piano designers, might be used to learn what level of technical specs produce a level of satisfaction to the performer. Indeed, I imagine that designers do have some recognition of the relationships, based on their own (standardized?) test suites.

But the rest of us are not designers. We don't have means to know just how much reduction in looping (say), or other improvement produces a measurable amount of satisfaction.

And even if we did, there is nothing we can do about it. We don't produce pianos. We don't sample piano sounds, nor do we model them. So we have no means to effect change.

The DPBSD measurements may be interesting, but they are just not actionable.

So ... do you want a piano whose loop length exceeds 3 seconds, as measured in the Dewster specs?
Or do you want a piano that sounds good, as measured by your own ears and your own judgement?

#2647507 - 05/27/17 04:30 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]  
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I would want a piano, which is up to the technical possibilities of - say - 2016. Not the 1990s. The personal listening test, would be on top of that. And that is what we can do. We can vote with our money as customers.

The problem with the hearing of the untrained DP customer (including myself) is, that it is easily deceived, backed by soothing marketing materials. Unfortunately most people will discover the disturbing artificial artifacts only after some time playing and listening to the ROMplers. IMO that is, why the DPBSD measurements are interesting and valuable.

"Looping" and "layering" would not be necessary any more today, with the use of multi GB samples and faster data processing of a fully modeled piano sound generation. It's cheaply available nowadays. But scarcely to be found in mainstream digital pianos.

Pianoteq (and maybe Roland) has demonstrated to us what is possible with a weak processor and very less RAM for an affordable price.

#2656199 - 06/25/17 12:45 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]  
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A very interesting thread !

when it comes down to it its about how it all feels and how one note combines with others in your head via your ears ..via the walls via the speakers/soundboard.

I cannot compare what my 7.2 sound system with multiple pianos (except pianoteq) cued up in my daw .with an acoustic piano ..there is none ..the acoustic will always be out of tune just for a start.

Creating an immersive experience is available to us now but not with the furniture models and to compare a grand piano with a keyboard set up as above is not fair the the grand piano which can only ever be one instrument and one sound source however grand its sound may be .

I am always finding new immersive experiences with my daw setup that is available for far less than a single good piano and has the ability to create whatever your inspiration has to offer .

So please give this angle a good look, the piano has been reinvented in a way that gives the 88 keys so much more than the original designers could have ever dream pt of .
looping layering etc can be controlled and fine tuned to your hearts content and audio graphs will become meaning less.

I never though that i would put my guitar aside but i have (except for the bendy notes )

get on the daw band wagon ...you wont look back

PS BIG speakers are important as is to be in the centre of the sound field ...dont skip this!

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