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Re: Steinway has acquired Renner。
Pro-TAC #2881853 08/20/19 10:40 PM
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According to the legal opinion tendered to PTG, Steinway is in Trade Restraint right now. As soon as they removed the old decals from the vendors.


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Re: Steinway has acquired Renner。
Ed McMorrow, RPT #2881887 08/21/19 03:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
According to the legal opinion tendered to PTG, Steinway is in Trade Restraint right now. As soon as they removed the old decals from the vendors.


Until this is determined in a court of law, this legal opinion has little value.

Re: Steinway has acquired Renner。
Pro-TAC #2881958 08/21/19 07:54 AM
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And since Decals Unlimited appears to be unphased by the change, there is an implication that somewhere down the road the policy will get reversed and everything will go back to "normal".

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
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Re: Steinway has acquired Renner。
Pro-TAC #2883350 08/25/19 02:52 PM
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In my opinion the acquisition of Renner only serves the purpose of ramping up the value of the whole Steinway company and making it easier now for a potential buyer to negotiate a price that comprises all relevant elements of the Steinway company. Previously. Renner might have been seen as a stumbling block for a potential buyer, because as a traditional German craft manufacturer they would hesitate selling to a Chinese company. It was not a big mystery in the industry that Renner was for sale anyway, but they specificlly not looking for a Chinese buyer.

Now that this stumbling block is out of the way, I believe that Steinway as a whole will change ownership to a Chinese company within 12 months.

Re: Steinway has acquired Renner。
Pro-TAC #2883499 08/25/19 10:50 PM
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I'm in this ballpark too.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
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Re: Steinway has acquired Renner。
Pro-TAC #2883594 08/26/19 09:55 AM
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It makes sense to think that our piano tools, parts, and materials will increasingly be sourced from China. After all, how many pianos are made now in Europe and the USA, and how many in China?

Re: Steinway has acquired Renner。
David Boyce #2884252 08/28/19 12:17 AM
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Originally Posted by David Boyce
It makes sense to think that our piano tools, parts, and materials will increasingly be sourced from China. After all, how many pianos are made now in Europe, Japan and the USA, and how many in China?


Let me rephrase that for you:

How many pianos of outstanding quality, designed with a vision for sound, playability, durability, servicability and devotion to carrying on a long history of innovation and craftsmanship are manufactured in Europe, Japan and the US as compared to China?

I'll give you Steinway, Bösendorfer, Bechstein, Mason&Hamlin, Schimmel, Steingräber, W.Hoffmann, Petrof, Grotrian, Blüthner, Borgato, Förster, Yamaha, Maene, Kawai, Fazioli, Sauter.

Now, is there any Chinese piano manufacturer that meets the criteria of my rephrased question?

Sheer numbers never tell the whole story.

Re: Steinway has acquired Renner。
Pro-TAC #2884495 08/28/19 02:28 PM
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I did not intend a discussion about relative quality. My point was that sheer volume of manufacturing means that piano tools, materials, and parts will probably be increasingly sourced from China.

Steinway, Seiler, Forster, and others, are not above marketing ranges of pianos manufactured for them in China.

If you want to make a separate point about manufacturing quality, that's fine of course. But I don't require you to rephrase anything for me, thanks very much. I am reasonably fluent in English.

Last edited by David Boyce; 08/28/19 02:29 PM.
Re: Steinway has acquired Renner。
David Boyce #2884549 08/28/19 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by David Boyce
Steinway, Seiler, Forster, and others, are not above marketing ranges of pianos manufactured for them in China.

What Förster pianos are manufactured in China? Förster prides themselves in being entirely German made. A Chinese-manufactured Förster would be surprising, indeed. Enlighten me.


August Förster 215
Re: Steinway has acquired Renner。
David Boyce #2884561 08/28/19 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by David Boyce
I did not intend a discussion about relative quality. My point was that sheer volume of manufacturing means that piano tools, materials, and parts will probably be increasingly sourced from China.

Steinway, Seiler, Forster, and others, are not above marketing ranges of pianos manufactured for them in China.

If you want to make a separate point about manufacturing quality, that's fine of course. But I don't require you to rephrase anything for me, thanks very much. I am reasonably fluent in English.


Your fluency in English not withstanding, you should take a look at the brands I mentioned. None of the instruments that have Steinway, Bechstein, Seiler, Förster on their fallboards are manufactured or designed in China. There are companies behind those brand names and some of them have different lines of models and some of these are manufactured in China, such as Essex for Steinway.

I stand by my rephrasing and ask you to show me a single Chinese brand that is even close in terms of the criteria I mentioned as compared to the brands I listed.

Re: Steinway has acquired Renner。
Pro-TAC #2884929 08/29/19 03:59 PM
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But my post was not ABOUT quality of Chinese versus quality of top European. I am not disputing that.

Re: Steinway has acquired Renner。
David Boyce #2884966 08/29/19 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by David Boyce
It makes sense to think that our piano tools, parts, and materials will increasingly be sourced from China. After all, how many pianos are made now in Europe and the USA, and how many in China?


Why would anyone look at the current realities and even think that there is a future in cheap Chinese production? The China phenomenon is about over (cheap labor, cheap trade).
Rather, I really think what you are about to see is a historical economic/trade block with EU, Brittain, N. and S.America (western powers)- something bigger than TPP and TTIP (trans-Pacific/Atlantic-partnership plan of Obama)...Along with an economic 'reset'. There has to be a reset, as the current order simply cannot hold up much longer. The replacements are already being worked out-- an all-digital financial sector, along with a "Social-Credit-Score System"- you can see it already forming, if you are watching:

For our own reset- look here to see what's in your immediate future:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/science...ems-like-Chinas-used-Silicon-Valley.html

And here:
https://www.fastcompany.com/9039404...ing-a-chinese-style-social-credit-system


Russia and China will hold themselves aside, in their own camp (already have a trade/military pact going), along with the Iranians, Turks, Syria, and everyone else who cannot stomach the Western social ideologies. 2020-21 are going to be some really interesting years to be alive to say the least.
By the way this is all heading toward one major war in the end.


Anyway, my ramblings do have a point when it comes to this particular discussion- as, right now the view of anyone with an economic mind is that, 'at best, it is a major gamble to bet on any trade deal with China'... While the more likely view is that 'there is no working it out with China at all' -(hence Trump's recent 'suggestion' for US corporations to prepare for doing business with other countries, rather than with China...About as hopeful as the current economic order remaining the same.
So, all our tools and equipment are more than likely to be the future products of some other country (and more expensive than the Walmart products you get now).

And as far as all this gossip about Steinway selling off to China, and their purchase of Renner as proof of this plan--- this strikes me as simply S&S haters/railers at it again. Those who can not let go of the stupid decal decision, and insist on bad-mouthing S&S whenever possible.
Reminds me of a neighbor that is rather well known in our neck of the woods...They got in trouble with the local fire warden years back-- and well, have had a beautifully designed wooden shingly sign hanging in their front lawn for 6 years now--- "All Wardens Are Jerks".
Let it go people.
The purchase of Renner simply assures an excellent quality source for S&S into the distant future.

* Edit: (Inert)- By the way, those people decorate that sign every Christmas with their festive lights.

Last edited by Rick_Parks; 08/29/19 06:29 PM.

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Re: Steinway has acquired Renner。
OE1FEU #2884994 08/29/19 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by OE1FEU

How many pianos of outstanding quality, designed with a vision for sound, playability, durability, servicability and devotion to carrying on a long history of innovation and craftsmanship are manufactured in Europe, Japan and the US as compared to China?


The Yangtze River that I heard at the Tchaikovsky a couple of months ago was quite impressive. It actually sounded better in some ways than the Steinway: clearer bass for example. I didn't get to play it however.

Yangtze River is an unashamed facsimile of the Steinway in so many ways, from the scale design to the dimensions of components down to the pedal lyre. Even some parts may possibly be interchangeable, and I've heard a technician who saw it saying that it had Steinway actions and hammers.

While the example I played a few years ago in Shanghai was underwhelming, Terence Ng and his team is determined to make a better Steinway than Steinway does. It won't be long before the design evolves onto its own.

Also remember that the vast majority of concert grands being made today were based on the Steinway design.

Re: Steinway has acquired Renner。
Pro-TAC #2885004 08/29/19 10:01 PM
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It seems that it needs to be repeated that David made no aspersion about piano qualities but rather about volume of supply and the possible future source of parts. Funny how conversations can go off on a tangent sometimes.


Chris Leslie
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Re: Steinway has acquired Renner。
Chris Leslie #2885157 08/30/19 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
It seems that it needs to be repeated that David made no aspersion about piano qualities but rather about volume of supply and the possible future source of parts. Funny how conversations can go off on a tangent sometimes.


Thank you Chris.

Re: Steinway has acquired Renner。
Pro-TAC #2885352 08/30/19 09:55 PM
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It occurred to me this morning while watching the news and the subject was Dale Earnhardt Jr getting back into his Chevy for a race (after the plane crash), that his "Chevy" probably does not have hardly one OEM part in it since it is TOTALLY souped up for racing. If SS's position were law, he would not be able to call that thing a Chevy anymore since he would be making money using the trademark yet he has no GM parts in the vehicle.

Seems to me like it's the same basic idea. Seems like that specific type of situation would be a strong argument in a court of law AGAINST SS's position.

Chocolate does to me what caffeine does...makes me say and do things I might not ordinarily do. I just had some chocolate.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
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Re: Steinway has acquired Renner。
P W Grey #2885385 08/31/19 05:31 AM
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Originally Posted by P W Grey
It occurred to me this morning while watching the news and the subject was Dale Earnhardt Jr getting back into his Chevy for a race (after the plane crash), that his "Chevy" probably does not have hardly one OEM part in it since it is TOTALLY souped up for racing. If SS's position were law, he would not be able to call that thing a Chevy anymore since he would be making money using the trademark yet he has no GM parts in the vehicle.

Seems to me like it's the same basic idea. Seems like that specific type of situation would be a strong argument in a court of law AGAINST SS's position.

Chocolate does to me what caffeine does...makes me say and do things I might not ordinarily do. I just had some chocolate.

Pwg


In NASCAR races the stock parts are the hood, roof, trunk lid, and front grill - isn't that what makes a car a car? :-) The auto companies make the engines, or the basic engines, but they are limited production just for racing...

Not sure how all that relates to pianos. There is no NASPoC - National Association for Stock Piano Competition!

Sam

Re: Steinway has acquired Renner。
Sam S #2885419 08/31/19 07:52 AM
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[quote=Sam S


In NASCAR races the stock parts are the hood, roof, trunk lid, and front grill - isn't that what makes a car a car? :-) The auto companies make the engines, or the basic engines, but they are limited production just for racing...
Sam[/quote]


Actually, the sheet metal is made from thinner panels than a normal car, you can't buy them at the dealer. The motors are built, often, by the individual race teams, and there is nothing factory about them,( they are all dry-sump engines).
the only thing totally factory on a NASCAR racing car is the sponsorship decal.

Re: Steinway has acquired Renner。
Pro-TAC #2885420 08/31/19 07:53 AM
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SamS,

Well, that would be considered "cosmetic", not performance. SS contends that if one alters the PERFORMANCE aspects of the unit by introducing non-SS parts or processes, then it is no longer a SS, thus prosecutable under trademark protection law.

Of course since these issues have a strong tendency to boil down to money, probably the reason why GM's lawyers don't stoop to the stupidity of suing Dale Earnhardt Jr over trademark infringement for messing around with their car is that they get positive publicity out if it and ultimately revenue (money).

SS OTOH feels that they are losing revenue by anyone altering their product and profiting in any way from it. They feel that THEY are the only ones to decide performance parameters. No one else on the planet is authorized to do so. All must accept what SS says. At least that is how they would like it to be.

Edit: Good point Ed.

Pwg

Last edited by P W Grey; 08/31/19 07:54 AM.

Peter W. Grey, RPT
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