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Re: Pianist magazine [Re: KevinM] #2920039 12/05/19 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by KevinM
Just for clarity I did not report Pianist Magazine and never wanted to see them banned. Just have them to be more circumspect in what they write.

I did feel that this post http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2916463/re-pianist-magazine.html#Post2916463 did step over the line and there were a couple of others in the same style. I may be wrong but I've never seen Kawai James do something like that. KJ announces and provides links to new products released by Kawai and I think that is quite a different thing, it is useful information about their products.

I'd happy to say I'd like to see Pianist Magazine back.

Personally, I never thought you reported Pianist Magazine. I suspect it was some member who was really annoyed and I never sense that level of annoyance from your posts smile I still hold to my theory it was Lola that did it but the evidence is weakly circumstantial and it could have just as easily been someone annoyed at the post you just linked smile Or maybe it wasn't someone annoyed at all and just a boyscout. smile


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
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Re: Pianist magazine [Re: Pianoperformance] #2920041 12/05/19 06:52 AM
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I think banning them for advertising is a bit gratuitous. How many times have people around here praised Henle to the skies - repeatedly - and not got banned for promoting a specific publisher? Not to mention the insane level of promotion J. S. Bach gets for free here (yes, silly remark of course, but change to Einaudi to get a living composer, who could in principle advertise). On the Digital pianos forum products are being advertised over and over ad infinitum; nobody ever gets banned for that. Nor should anyone be banned for that.


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Re: Pianist magazine [Re: Pianoperformance] #2920067 12/05/19 08:16 AM
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Well, we are bombarded with ads from all sides nowadays, so I can understand a certain level of suspicion when somebody has to sell something, but sometimes people sell things we actually are interested in, things we really want or even need! I'm actually grateful for some buying suggestions I get on Facebook or Amazon, etc. I use AdBlock everywhere but not on PianoWorld, because I like all things that have to do with pianos, even piano-related ads. So I didn't mind Pianist Magazine's posts at all. I don't stand people who advertise videos such as "learn piano in 5 minutes", "get my secret tips" and other clickbait, but I like serious teachers.

I think Pianist should pay PW to place ads on this Website and be allowed back to the forums for support issues. They would certainly gain even more subscribers.

Re: Pianist magazine [Re: QuasiUnaFantasia] #2920069 12/05/19 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
I think banning them for advertising is a bit gratuitous. How many times have people around here praised Henle to the skies - repeatedly - and not got banned for promoting a specific publisher? Not to mention the insane level of promotion J. S. Bach gets for free here (yes, silly remark of course, but change to Einaudi to get a living composer, who could in principle advertise). On the Digital pianos forum products are being advertised over and over ad infinitum; nobody ever gets banned for that. Nor should anyone be banned for that.
Someone promoting or praising a product they are not connected with is completely different from someone connected with the product praising the product. A random poster saying how much they like piano X is utterly different from a dealer saying how great piano X is if they sell piano X.

Re: Pianist magazine [Re: pianoloverus] #2920077 12/05/19 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Someone promoting or praising a product they are not connected with is completely different from someone connected with the product praising the product. A random poster saying how much they like piano X is utterly different from a dealer saying how great piano X is if they sell piano X.


I don't disagree completely, but on an internet forum no one knows who is connected to what, and to my knowledge Pianist magazine have not heaped praise on their own product here in PW (admittedly, I have not followed this thread closely, so I may be unaware of important parts).


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Re: Pianist magazine [Re: sinophilia] #2920078 12/05/19 08:48 AM
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I think what KJ does is advertising, inadvertently. If you make PM pay for advertising, then you need to make Kawai pay as well.

But we really need a Yamaha James instead.


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Re: Pianist magazine [Re: bSharp(C)yclist] #2920088 12/05/19 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
I think what KJ does is advertising, inadvertently. If you make PM pay for advertising, then you need to make Kawai pay as well.

But we really need a Yamaha James instead.

Obviously I get no vote and the website/forum is commercial so this explains why I get no vote smile , but I think it would be better getting a Yamaha James than to make KJ pay for advertising.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Pianist magazine [Re: Pianoperformance] #2920090 12/05/19 09:07 AM
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I really do not agree that KawaiJames should be classed as advertising. At least not from any of the posts I've seen of his (maybe I've missed some of late?). They're generally made in response to people asking specific questions about Kawai products.

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2916463/re-pianist-magazine.html#Post2916463

That on the other hand, seems far more like an advert. That said, I'm not sure I really have a problem with that post either as long as it's a one off and they don't bump that thread or plaster it into other threads every few week each and every time there's a sale. If the thread was bumped because of the christmas sale and the easter monday sale and... bit much and understandable why a forum would start to think hang on you should be paying for adverts and do so via the same advertising spots everyone else has to use smile

Which I'm sure they'd never do, certainly not unsolicited... http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...ke-for-me-to-play-piano.html#Post2917551 http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...-piano-learning-journey.html#Post2903971 http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2903965/re-2010-kawai-rx2-blak.html#Post2903965

Now if people think KawaiJames has also gone down the route of direct advertising, I'd like to see some relevant posts. Considering how much he posts and takes part in discussions on here in very on-topic ways, I just do not see it as the same thing. He posts under his own name and imo the Kawai part is useful to realise he's affiliated with the product and allow people to take bias into account.

and yes, I agree a YamahaJames would be a welcomed addition if it's someone willing to interact with the forum and not just post notes about each of their sales.

Last edited by Gary001; 12/05/19 09:13 AM.

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Re: Pianist magazine [Re: Gary001] #2920094 12/05/19 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Gary001
I really do not agree that KawaiJames should be classed as advertising. At least not from any of the posts I've seen of his. They're generally made in response to people asking specific questions about Kawai products.

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2916463/re-pianist-magazine.html#Post2916463

That on the other hand, seems far more like an advert. That said, I'm not sure I really have a problem with that post either as long as it's a one off and they don't bump that thread or plaster it into other threads every few week each and every time there's a sale. If the thread was bumped because of the christmas sale and the easter monday sale and... bit much smile

Which I'm sure they'd never do, certainly not unsolicited... http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...ke-for-me-to-play-piano.html#Post2917551 http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...-piano-learning-journey.html#Post2903971 http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2903965/re-2010-kawai-rx2-blak.html#Post2903965

Now if people think KawaiJames has also gone down the route of direct advertising, I'd like to see some relevant posts. Considering how much he posts and takes part in discussions on here in very on-topic ways, I just do not see it as the same thing. He posts under his own name and imo the Kawai part is useful to realise he's affiliated with the product and allow people to take bias into account.

The links you posted are product announcements with a comment. KJ posts product announcements with minimal to no comments. But in both cases they are product annoucements being posted.

(Although I am an expert at digging up past posts, I don't want to post 50 links to KJ's past product announcements as examples since this is going down a bad road and I don't want to have KJ banned. Regardless of whether or not any of his behavior can be classed as advertising or marketing, he does a real service on the digital forum and is a valued member of the community.)


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Pianist magazine [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2920095 12/05/19 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
[The links you posted are product announcements with a comment. KJ posts product announcements with minimal to no comments. But in both cases they are product annoucements being posted.


They sound more like sale announcements and special offers to me.

Or do pianist magazine have multiple models of magazine? I could understand a post announcing their new Jazz focussed pianist magazine, as in a new product line. But not announcements of new issues or sales of those issues. I do get the similarity you're trying to suggest, but, imho magazines and pianos feel different as far as product lines go.

Perhaps I'm drawing an arbitrary line? But issues of a magazine do not imo qualify as new products and need an announcement and sales/special offers imo are far closer to advertising.

Last edited by Gary001; 12/05/19 09:19 AM.

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Re: Pianist magazine [Re: Gary001] #2920097 12/05/19 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Gary001
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
[The links you posted are product announcements with a comment. KJ posts product announcements with minimal to no comments. But in both cases they are product annoucements being posted.


They sound more like sale announcements and special offers to me.

OR do pianist magazine have multiple models of magazine? I could understand a post announcing their new Jazz focussed pianist magazine, as in a new product line. But not announcements of new issues or sales of those issues. I do get the analogy you're trying to draw, but magazines and pianos feel different as far as product lines go.


The product of a magazine are the individual issues if those can be sold separately, which Pianist Magazine does do, and does a lot of. Understandably since sometimes pianists only want certain issues. There is also the product of an annual subscription. There is the product of various digital issues, and an annual digital subscription. These are all separate products.

That pianos are more expensive and one usually only buys one of them (except for a few people here!) doesn't make it less of a product or more of a product than Pianist Magazine products.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Pianist magazine [Re: Pianoperformance] #2920101 12/05/19 09:23 AM
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I don’t know who KJ is, but discussing him in this thread might bring him to someone’s attention...

Re: Pianist magazine [Re: Sam S] #2920104 12/05/19 09:24 AM
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Tyrone Slothrop Online Content
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Originally Posted by Sam S
I don’t know who KJ is, but discussing him in this thread might bring him to someone’s attention...

Quite right. If we continue, we may want to be more abstract about people unless we really think they are abusers.

But this is maybe talked out. Further discussion is unlikely to get Piano Magazine unbanned nor to make anyone feel better about the banning (that is anyone who feels badly about Piano Magazine being banned).


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Pianist magazine [Re: Pianoperformance] #2920108 12/05/19 09:33 AM
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Technically the product is each issue sure, but, I have never felt that way about magazines or news papers. To me, the announcement of a new product for those is when they branch out into a different line that runs alongside their main magazine. So you get a magazine focusing on classical and they start up a jazz line or a blues line etc that's worthy of a new product announcement.

Is it an arbitrary line I'm drawing? Yes and I think it comes down to frequency.

With a magazine you know a new edition is coming out every month (or weekly etc). With piano products you have a rough idea that new lines are released annually, but it's not a certainty. Products can be released soon/later, more might be released one year than the next. If new piano models shipped on a regular monthly schedule, I'd feel the same way about their announcements too, that they shouldn't be posted about on here.

I certainly wouldn't consider posts about sales appropriate from a company, be they Kawai, Yamaha or Pianist magazine either. At least not unless a regular forum member was asking about anyone knowing about upcoming sales (and only then as long as the account wasn't a astroturfing).

I think we both view magazines differently, if you're seeing each issue as a entirely new product worthy of announcement (I do not), so I'm not sure we're going to see eye to eye on whether their posts should be classed as advertising. But, I also don't think it matters, it's not up to either of us smile

All that said, I'd prefer rather than bans, we saw accounts moved to forced moderation and any post deemed advertising deleted before it sees the light of day. If the account owners then learn where the lines are and act in good faith, restore them to regular posting. If they continue to try to post ads, warn and then ban, since there's only so much time you can waste moderating.

Last edited by Gary001; 12/05/19 09:40 AM.

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Re: Pianist magazine [Re: Pianoperformance] #2920112 12/05/19 09:42 AM
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Both work for the respective company, and have their product in their forum name. So when an post/announcement is made, it's advertising. The best advertising isn't a direct announcement, but a bag of Jedi mind tricks to steer your thinking in a certain direction. It doesn't really matter though. Just make sure you buy the baby Yoda doll this Christmas.

I did reach out to Ellie and she mentioned that she reached back out to PW to see what could be done. Let's see what happens.


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Re: Pianist magazine [Re: bSharp(C)yclist] #2920117 12/05/19 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
Both work for the respective company, and have their product in their forum name. So when an post/announcement is made, it's advertising. The best advertising isn't a direct announcement, but a bag of Jedi mind tricks to steer your thinking in a certain direction. It doesn't really matter though. Just make sure you buy the baby Yoda doll this Christmas.

Say it ain't so! Certainly baby Yoda isn't advertising! I've already ordered one for my piano desk (btw, preorders being taken by Disney on Amazon.com! laugh laugh )

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Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
I did reach out to Ellie and she mentioned that she reached back out to PW to see what could be done. Let's see what happens.

Good news! I hope this is resolved. I've appreciated their presence on the thread.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Pianist magazine [Re: bSharp(C)yclist] #2920119 12/05/19 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
Both work for the respective company, and have their product in their forum name. So when an post/announcement is made, it's advertising. The best advertising isn't a direct announcement, but a bag of Jedi mind tricks to steer your thinking in a certain direction. It doesn't really matter though. Just make sure you buy the baby Yoda doll this Christmas.

I did reach out to Ellie and she mentioned that she reached back out to PW to see what could be done. Let's see what happens.



Sure, any announcement of a product IS an advertisement if the person announcing it has any affiliation directly back to the company.

A lot of this comes down to how posts come across though. Whether you believe they're been made in good faith to add value to a community or trying to just plug their product again and again without paying for advertising spots. Looking back over several pages of account posts PM and KJ imho give off very different vibes in that regard.

Posts made in good faith can actually bring a forum great benefit which in turn brings more users and advertising revenue. So there's a business decision to be made on where to draw the exact line for, "no those kind of posts must be done via our paid advertising spots".

Ultimately it's up to the forum owner to decide what they feel crosses their line on advertising. I do hope they at least have a discussion with PM so that they can contribute to this forum in the future without overstepping that line again. Maybe PM were posting in good faith and just became a little overly enthusiastic and in turn came across in the wrong way? Hopefully they get it sorted out.

Last edited by Gary001; 12/05/19 10:03 AM.

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Re: Pianist magazine [Re: Pianoperformance] #2920151 12/05/19 11:29 AM
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Just my 2 cents worth... I do not mind PM posting in this thread which is is fact about PM. And anyone wanting to know about them, about new issues or whatever, can come here. I can just ignore the thread if I don't want to see it.
There is a whole long thread dedicated to Faber for example, but it is not advertising, even it is 'something you can buy'. I we choose to discuss a product, whoever makes that product should be allowed to answer/advice.

What I DO mind is posts like this: http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...-piano-learning-journey.html#Post2903971
It's blatant advertising, It offers no advice, It's utterly OT, and I resent it. Does not mean I want them banned, just relegated to where they belong.


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Re: Pianist magazine [Re: Gary001] #2920174 12/05/19 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Gary001
I really do not agree that KawaiJames should be classed as advertising.
He should be classed as a humanoid.

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