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Re: Yamaha to Exhibit More Than 50 New Products At NAMM 2019 [Re: tangothomas] #2802385
01/15/19 07:02 PM
01/15/19 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by tangothomas
It’s not just a few buttons and some software over the CLP and can not be compared with PSR or Tyros/Genos.

Do you have any idea why Yamaha doesn't include the arpeggiator on any of the CVPs?

Seems like an interesting omission to me; and nobody I asked had an idea why.

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Re: Yamaha to Exhibit More Than 50 New Products At NAMM 2019 [Re: arc7urus] #2802943
01/17/19 03:53 AM
01/17/19 03:53 AM
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@arc7urus
Why do you think the CLP 685 would have a be "much better speaker system" compared to the CVP-709? I am really curious about that, because as far as I follow those lines the CVP always had the best speaker system of those product lines - and my first CVP was a CVP-75 back in the 90s. smile
I did not personally test the CLP 685, but I would really be surprised if it would outperform the 7-speaker system on the CVP-709.

The idea of getting a CLP and a Genos is interesting (and if there were a 88keys Genos-version I might be tempted *g*), but I would conclude a CVP is more than the sum of its parts.
CVP-709 is a nice package of
- good arranger functions
- home-use okay-ish sequencer
- awesome digital piano
- very good sound system for the purpose
- fun stuff like vocoder/vocal harmony/karaoke functions
All of this in a nice piece of furniture that can be but in any living room (I would definitly NOT put a Genos there - at least my XS8 sits in another room).

Especially the small goodies like the 'light-guide / follow lights"-function (which the CVP-75 also had) make this a very interesting instrument for pros and beginners alike. My 3yrs-old cannot read sheet music, but has a blast using the follow lights function.

Only downside on the current CVP gen is the keyboard (NWX) that I'm not a fan of. The Kawai CA-98 is much better in that regard (esp. the double-escapement / key repetition is a lot closer to a concert grand than the NWX).

The new CSP-series is an interesting concept - I do like the lack of buttons look-wise, but using a touch screen as your main input surface is... <insert some disgusting words here>
Youtube demos of those instruments show, that no one "wants" this. smile

You buy a CVP because of its integration - not for the sole features (connect your favorite keyboard via MIDI to a computer and there you have your instrument that easily outperforms ANY hardware keys/synth/whatever) - given a decent sound system. But a CVP: switch it on, and there you have it - everything nicely integrated and easy to use.

So on my side: If NAMM 2019 brings us a CVP-809 with improved action I would be "shut up and take my money!!!". smile

Last edited by TheKeyMaster; 01/17/19 03:54 AM.
Re: Yamaha to Exhibit More Than 50 New Products At NAMM 2019 [Re: halherta] #2802964
01/17/19 05:25 AM
01/17/19 05:25 AM
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TKM!

Thats right - you have to play it for a while to understand it’s potential and user friedliness, and not only talk about it as waaaaaay overpriced, without ever sitting in front of it.

Re: Yamaha to Exhibit More Than 50 New Products At NAMM 2019 [Re: tangothomas] #2803108
01/17/19 12:41 PM
01/17/19 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by tangothomas
to play it for a while to understand it’s potential and user friedliness, and not only talk about it as waaaaaay overpriced, without ever sitting in front of it.

My understanding is that CVPs intimidate many people by the presence of their control panel above the keyboard. It is not the price that they find intimidating. I observed that psychological effect myself multiple times.

And it is not just distraction of the blinking lights. Even the CVP with the control panel completely covered with a non-transparent baffle still continues to instill fear.

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Re: Yamaha to Exhibit More Than 50 New Products At NAMM 2019 [Re: halherta] #2803157
01/17/19 02:33 PM
01/17/19 02:33 PM
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Could be. But in my case I’m used to that interface since the early 90s when
I bought Technics KN 1000 & 2000. After that owned and played DGX 650, Roland FP 80 and others, so buttons and screens are friends of mine.

A lot of people on PW are looking for DPs that resemble pianos with as little as possible over the KB. I can understand that. But that’s not me. The first time I tried a CVP I found it as a major upgrade in all ways.

Yamaha made the decisions to not include arpeggiator, pads and R2 into the design on the CVPs. PSR, Tyros/Genos also have other functions that not did find their way into these Clavinovas. Mayby lack of space or knowledge of potential end users. Yamaha reps. can answer why that is so.

Re: Yamaha to Exhibit More Than 50 New Products At NAMM 2019 [Re: TheKeyMaster] #2803198
01/17/19 04:25 PM
01/17/19 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by TheKeyMaster
@arc7urus
Why do you think the CLP 685 would have a be "much better speaker system" compared to the CVP-709? I am really curious about that, because as far as I follow those lines the CVP always had the best speaker system of those product lines - and my first CVP was a CVP-75 back in the 90s. smile
I did not personally test the CLP 685, but I would really be surprised if it would outperform the 7-speaker system on the CVP-709.


Well, I never tried a CVP, but the speakers on the 685 are impressive :-)

Although these numbers do not translate into sound quality, both setups are pretty similar:

CVP-709
Amplifiers (30 W + 30 W + 20 W) x 2 + 40 W
Speakers (16 cm + 5 cm + 3 cm (dome)) x 2, Spruce Cone Speaker, Twisted Flare Port

CLP-685
Amplifiers (50 W + 50 W + 50 W) x 2
Speakers (16 cm + 8 cm + 2.5 cm (dome)) x 2, Spruce Cone Speaker, Twisted Flare Port

Re: Yamaha to Exhibit More Than 50 New Products At NAMM 2019 [Re: halherta] #2803211
01/17/19 05:04 PM
01/17/19 05:04 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 7,727
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I wish people would stop trying to evaluate a piano based on specs.

There's nothing in those speaker/amplifier specs to show any level of quality.

The 6" size of the speakers means little. There are good six inchers and there are crap six inchers. What's in this piano?
And the enclosure on a console piano is crap just by its shape. Don't expect much!
And the power specs in this type of equipment are not regulated by law. So they mean little.

Screw the specs.
Instead, trust you ears. They are the ONLY measuring instruments that have any value.

Re: Yamaha to Exhibit More Than 50 New Products At NAMM 2019 [Re: halherta] #2803220
01/17/19 05:24 PM
01/17/19 05:24 PM
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arc7urus, in addition to the six speakers you mentioned, the CVP-709 has a single 20 cm woofer (driven by the 40W amplifier).

I agree with recent comments by tangothomas and TheKeyMaster on the user friendliness of the CVP/DGX designs. If you can get past the "intimidation factor" of a large screen, a couple of dials and dozens of buttons, these instruments are very easy to use. It is much simpler to directly access a function through a button or scroll through voice options with a dial than deal with multiple menu layers on an iPad touch screen, as with the CSP line. The DGX even has a full numeric keypad to directly select voices!

I also agree with TheKeyMaster on the wish for a better key action on the higher-end CVP models. NWX is a great value on the $1,500 P-515 piano; not so much on CVP models priced at many multiples of this.

Re: Yamaha to Exhibit More Than 50 New Products At NAMM 2019 [Re: arc7urus] #2803361
01/18/19 02:44 AM
01/18/19 02:44 AM
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TheKeyMaster Offline
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@arc7urus
I agree (even without having tried) that the 685 speaker system is very nice (as it was already on its predecessors, but back then the corresponding CVP was always "a notch better" (anyways: whining on a very high level).
That's why I was surprised you called the 685 speaker system "much better than the 709er's". wink

As for the intimidation factor of CVPs: I can understand this. My wife was concerned as well - esp. with respect to the kids getting all distracted and only pushing buttons instead of actually playing (as often happens on my XS8). I pushed that argument off the table by putting our 3yrs-old in front of an acoustic upright.. he started to play with the sliding lid that thing had, instead of the keys. On the CVP then he followed the lights laugh
.. Those wife's facial expressions that are just priceless..

Nevertheless - at the end it's all about the fun! Music has only ONE purpose: entertainment! And if THAT is not [mostly] fun (even while practicing), something has to be changed or it'd better be stopped. So if a student should learn a piece, it's better when on the moment that he/she/it gets frustrated, he uses a different voice to continue practicing, or even starts to play Pop using arranger functions, than not playing at all and closing the lid - as would happen on an acoustic, because there are none of those options. As long as keys are being pressed, there is a training factor greater than zero - what I would call a win.

And who would be against Chopin's Nocturnes played with a banjo? ^^

Re: Yamaha to Exhibit More Than 50 New Products At NAMM 2019 [Re: TheKeyMaster] #2803644
01/18/19 04:40 PM
01/18/19 04:40 PM
Joined: Nov 2018
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90125  Offline
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Originally Posted by tangothomas
so buttons and screens are friends of mine.

You are so lucky to be able to overcome this problem or not ever being affected by it.
Originally Posted by TheKeyMaster
Nevertheless - at the end it's all about the fun! Music has only ONE purpose: entertainment! And if THAT is not [mostly] fun (even while practicing), something has to be changed or it'd better be stopped. So if a student should learn a piece, it's better when on the moment that he/she/it gets frustrated, he uses a different voice to continue practicing, or even starts to play Pop using arranger functions, than not playing at all and closing the lid - as would happen on an acoustic, because there are none of those options. As long as keys are being pressed, there is a training factor greater than zero - what I would call a win.

Your kids are so lucky! Many parents or teachers consider their duty to do a musical equivalent of taking away kids' colored pencils:
[Linked Image]
and replace them with the graphite ones:
[Linked Image]
until they develop "a proper technique". It is so grim and I've seen that happening so many times.

E.g.: kids discover or oversee/overhear somebody practicing slowly on a keyboard after switching the piano voice to accordion voice or some other synthesized voice with infinite sustain. That way they can fix their chord fingering mistakes by just moving the misplaced finger. Then comes a teacher/parent, yells at them and forces to switch back to piano voice and re-hammer all mistaken chords.

Last edited by 90125; 01/18/19 04:41 PM. Reason: fixed pencils make
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