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Re: Kawai ca78 (grand feel 2) problems with action [Re: Andy R] #2779880
11/10/18 05:46 PM
11/10/18 05:46 PM
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arc7urus Offline
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Originally Posted by Andy R
...In an acoustic action, the letoff point is where the jack is being flipped up against the hammer butt or knuckle to send the hammer into the string free to rebound unimpeded. The hammer is actually accelerated into the string slightly by this motion. The player feels the letoff resistance in the fingers when playing softly and it actually improves the sense of control for p and pp playing. In the GF2 action, the letoff feel is replicated, but the effect on the hammer traveling to the sensor (string) is the opposite of that in an acoustic action. The letoff bumper actually creates an impediment for the hammer travel that must be overcome. I think this actually reduces the control of p and pp playing. I would rather have no letoff feel than one that reduces control...

I think you are just partially right about the implementation of the let off on the GF2. I agree when you say that the let off on the GF2 is an obstacle to the hammer movement. On an acoustic you can accelerate a key near or at let off point and the action will still throw the hammer. On the GF2, accelerating the key near the let off requires extra force to overcome the rubber notch simulating the let off. So, in this situation, the GF2 is the opposite of an acoustic action.

However, the GF2 also features sensors _before_ the let off point. So, if the key is accelerated in the first part of key travel (before the let off), you can produce the full dynamic range without any interference from the let off notch. Let me put this in approximate numbers measured on a white key on my CA98 with GF2. Full stroke (from resting position to bottom-out) is 12mm. From resting position to the let off point is 8mm and from the let-off to bottom 4mm. This means that it is possible to control and accelerate a key wiithout contact with the let-off notch during the first 2/3 of key travel. If this is an issue or not will mainly depend on technique/playing style. I am not sure if removing the rubber notches would actually allow the hammer to move in a more realistic way.

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Re: Kawai ca78 (grand feel 2) problems with action [Re: Rohit04062] #2780048
11/11/18 11:18 AM
11/11/18 11:18 AM
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Maartin Offline
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The Kawai CA's seem to default to quite a 'muffled' sound for anything other than FFF, but you can make it as bright as you like by adjusting the virtual technician, tone control and other settings.

Last edited by Maartin; 11/11/18 11:19 AM.
Re: Kawai ca78 (grand feel 2) problems with action [Re: Rohit04062] #2780049
11/11/18 11:20 AM
11/11/18 11:20 AM
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Posts: 7,767
Raleigh, North Carolina
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Maartin: Are you saying "muffled through speakers" or "muffled through headphones"? Or both?

Re: Kawai ca78 (grand feel 2) problems with action [Re: Rohit04062] #2780139
11/11/18 04:37 PM
11/11/18 04:37 PM
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Tom F Wright Offline
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I am the prowd (!) Owner of a CA98 and like others, have also experienced great difficulty in trying to reproduce ppp soft levels. This is partly down to the let-off mechanism used by Kawai, but do appreciate that it is there to try and mimic the feeling of a grand piano mechanism.

To get round some of these issues, I too have also totally removed the silicon strips used by the let-off mechanism. For me, this has made it a lot better now to play quieter passages, but do remember that the keys will loose that "notchy" feel if you do - and you may not like that. If in doubt, just remove one small strip and see if you like the feel better or not 😎

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Re: Kawai ca78 (grand feel 2) problems with action [Re: Rohit04062] #2780143
11/11/18 04:46 PM
11/11/18 04:46 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 7,767
Raleigh, North Carolina
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Nice job. Some people like letoff, but I consider it a nuisance. It's necessary for an acoustic piano. But it's useless to me.

So ... how many strips must be removed? Is it one bit per key? Or one per octave? Or one for the entire width of the piano?

Re: Kawai ca78 (grand feel 2) problems with action [Re: Rohit04062] #2780152
11/11/18 05:14 PM
11/11/18 05:14 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,445
UK
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Alexander Borro Offline
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Originally Posted by Tom F Wright
I am the prowd (!) Owner of a CA98 and like others, have also experienced great difficulty in trying to reproduce ppp soft levels. This is partly down to the let-off mechanism used by Kawai, but do appreciate that it is there to try and mimic the feeling of a grand piano mechanism.

To get round some of these issues, I too have also totally removed the silicon strips used by the let-off mechanism. For me, this has made it a lot better now to play quieter passages, but do remember that the keys will loose that "notchy" feel if you do - and you may not like that. If in doubt, just remove one small strip and see if you like the feel better or not 😎


As a matter of interest does it effect the return speed of the key ? I presume it would, the key will jump back up more quickly to the top and not be slowed by the rubber strip. I wonder if it affects the feel of trills and repeated notes.

btw I have no intend on doing this mod. I am happy with mine. the lettof is consistent key to key on mine, and while I can't quite get he softest notes out of it like I could on my cheap Casio AP450. I feel it tallies much more realistically with an acoustic how soft you can go, soft enough. I am satisfied.

I use the default touch with the internal sounds. I feel if it gives the best balance overall for me, I tried light, sure I can get used to it and get a bit more of an ff with bite for the same effort, but that also compromises the timbre of pp, you get a better ff but a worse pp control, In other words for me it is not just about volume and dynamic range in the way Jobert describes as his best solution, but also resolution in timbre you can get. Heavy I just find too compromised for louder playing.

With VSTs I just leave it in on normal also, but max out the VST velocity at about 110 and I am set. As Gombessa notes you can get a bit of extra MIDI resolution, but for me I feel no difference whether I have around 100 steps or 127.


Selftaught since June 2014.
Books: Barratt classic piano course bk 1,2,3. Humphries Piano handbook, various...
Kawai CA78, Casio AP450 & software pianos.
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Re: Kawai ca78 (grand feel 2) problems with action [Re: MacMacMac] #2780159
11/11/18 05:32 PM
11/11/18 05:32 PM
Joined: May 2018
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Tom F Wright Offline
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Yes basically one stop covers one octave. As I mentioned , it might be a good idea just to pull out one strip and see if you prefer it removed.

(Could post picture of the removal but not sure how to post it here on the forum - seems it has to be uploaded first to a url)

Re: Kawai ca78 (grand feel 2) problems with action [Re: Rohit04062] #2780162
11/11/18 05:37 PM
11/11/18 05:37 PM
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Tom F Wright Offline
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Not absolutely sure if there any changes once the strips are removed, but the return speed is very good and yes, trills are no problem 😎

Re: Kawai ca78 (grand feel 2) problems with action [Re: Rohit04062] #2780405
11/12/18 02:04 PM
11/12/18 02:04 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
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Andy R Offline
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Originally Posted by Rohit04062

How did that impact the action and feel of the keyboard in general? Did you lose the escapement? Were there any negative impacts to doing what you did?


Yes, you lose the letoff feel completely. The key travel became completely smooth all the way to the bottom. That is the only thing you lose. There is no physical connection between the rubber letoff bumper and the key sensors. They are unaffected. For me, soft playing and trills are greatly improved.

Removing the bumpers is relatively easy and reversible. The back and top of the cabinet need to be removed, then the line of screws holding down the circuit boards for the sensors. Tilt the circuit boards back and the rubber bumper strips are exposed for removal. There are 7 strips of 12 bumpers and 1 strip of 4. I have stored mine in a ziplock bag for possible replacement if desired. They are covered in grease, so I had to be careful not to get any on other parts of the instrument.

Andy

Re: Kawai ca78 (grand feel 2) problems with action [Re: Andy R] #2780411
11/12/18 02:20 PM
11/12/18 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Andy R
Originally Posted by Rohit04062

How did that impact the action and feel of the keyboard in general? Did you lose the escapement? Were there any negative impacts to doing what you did?


Yes, you lose the letoff feel completely. The key travel became completely smooth all the way to the bottom. That is the only thing you lose. There is no physical connection between the rubber letoff bumper and the key sensors. They are unaffected. For me, soft playing and trills are greatly improved.

Removing the bumpers is relatively easy and reversible. The back and top of the cabinet need to be removed, then the line of screws holding down the circuit boards for the sensors. Tilt the circuit boards back and the rubber bumper strips are exposed for removal. There are 7 strips of 12 bumpers and 1 strip of 4. I have stored mine in a ziplock bag for possible replacement if desired. They are covered in grease, so I had to be careful not to get any on other parts of the instrument.

Andy


Interestingly, the letoff bumpers are the only part of that action that is greased, and Kawai uses a special, viscous "friction grease" that doesn't seem to be easy to source. So it's wise to try to keep the grease intact and not let it get on anything else.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Kawai ca78 (grand feel 2) problems with action [Re: Rohit04062] #2780431
11/12/18 03:22 PM
11/12/18 03:22 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
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Raleigh, North Carolina
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