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Re: ES-8 [Re: dmd] #2783814
11/23/18 05:44 PM
11/23/18 05:44 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 227
Mountain Brook, AL, USA
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jeffscot Offline
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Posts: 227
Mountain Brook, AL, USA
Originally Posted by dmd
Well, I am sorry but it is going to take more than some "stranger" coming to this forum for 2 days posting negatives about Kawai SK sampling for me to climb on the HORRIBLE Kawai sounds boat. I have played many Kawai keyboards and HORRIBLE is not a term that comes to my mind.

Call me Skeptical of your motives.

no problem when he posts about yamaha though, huh!? wink

seems as though there is someone to hate every native digital sound, as well as each vst...
wonder if they like any of the available acoustics?


.... Jeff ▫️ Yamaha P515 ▫️ Roll Tide
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Re: ES-8 [Re: dmd] #2783821
11/23/18 05:53 PM
11/23/18 05:53 PM
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 29
Warsaw, Poland
S
Szatanica Offline
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Szatanica  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 29
Warsaw, Poland
Would it be ok if used milder expressions like "questionable" or "doubtful" or be maybe less dramatic? Would that change how you perceive such opinion? Plus why am I a villain here - it was not my post about a buzzing Kawai, now was it? I have only shared my (as of today's) experiences after testing out several pianos and the resonance is horrible to my ears (and horrible is the word I decided to use because for me this piano is unplayable with this issue - maybe older models, or the once you get in States are different, which is also a possibility). I do hear it loud and clear and since this is an open forum, I don not attack anyone personally with my opinion, I do feel we are free to share what we feel. I can't and will not (because it makes no sense) convince you of my motives (and honestly the only one I have now is to buy myself new DP) as it's not doable. When I read that Yankovich is struggling with the same issue as I am, I figure I can help. Sorry I had good intentions. I'm on the other side of the Earth anyway, and honestly I do not see how this one tiny option should affect anything in a grand scheme of things. But if you want to double check that then you're always welcome to have a cup of coffee with me when you're in Warsaw, Poland.:)

Re: ES-8 [Re: yancovitch] #2783827
11/23/18 06:17 PM
11/23/18 06:17 PM
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 438
Istanbul
I
IosPlayer Online blank
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IosPlayer  Online Blank
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Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 438
Istanbul
Szatanica, DMD is a very good guy, but some of us are frustrated with Kawai quality control issues and the opinions expressed about them. There has been a lot of discussion which you have fortunately missed about certain models in particular. Whether Kawai is any better or worse than other brands is still up for grabs in my book. In spite of all the loud voices to the contrary I am going to get a Kawaii MP7se or aVPC1 tomorrow ( no 11se is available in Turkey) and there is not even a Kawai technician in Istanbul! That is because, in my price range, no action is as satisfying as these Kawais. So feeling for individual brands can run high here and you inadvertently crossed paths (or swords) with it.

Why we should feel so strongly about such stuff I haven't a clue. It's like my dad always buying Oldsmobiles. For him there wasn't a car any better than an Olds... Until he bought a Ford Mustang convertible as part of a midlife crisis celebration! LOL! So, please take it with a grain of salt and don't get turned off to the forum, and please continue to give honest opinions. You have demonstrated you can defend yourself quite well, so you don't need any help from me, except to extend a welcome to a very good forum with some really nice people, and the occasional controversy.

Actually I am not too far from Warsaw. Maybe a coffee is not impossible. Best, Mike


Jazz at www.newartistsrecords.com. Search Michael Levy. Use Safari for free tracks.
https://soundcloud.com/michael-levy-387395070
1915 Steinway B, Kawai MP11se, Casio AT5
Re: ES-8 [Re: IosPlayer] #2783832
11/23/18 06:35 PM
11/23/18 06:35 PM
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 29
Warsaw, Poland
S
Szatanica Offline
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Szatanica  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 29
Warsaw, Poland
IosPlayer - you do have a good point. I can understand the frustration of "old" members that struggle with "youngsters" trying to show off. It's even more difficult with regards to the fact we only read dry words, no non-verbal communication makes it so much harder to get the real meaning and intentions (I have the same with motorcycle forums - and I'm a 12 year old rider, when I read the same thing again and again and how strongly people feel about it). And I absolutely get that sometimes it's better to shut up and listen before speaking as I'm sure I know very little in comparison to what "oldies" know. I'll try to bear this in mind for the future. A little humility can hurt you right? smile It's just I'm a passionate person when it comes to expressing myself, hence "horrible" could have sounded like and exaggeration to some...and it is so hard trying to express your opinions about something as subjective as sound in a non-subjective and non-judgmental way:( But I'll try to be less confrontational.

And yes, let me know when you're here, we can check out some pianos and go get a coffee smile

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Re: ES-8 [Re: yancovitch] #2783840
11/23/18 07:05 PM
11/23/18 07:05 PM
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 438
Istanbul
I
IosPlayer Online blank
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IosPlayer  Online Blank
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Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 438
Istanbul
I think it was just the usual internet misunderstanding, Szatanica, you weren't particularly confrontational IMO. I am rereading Jean Auel's great trilogy Earth's Children. In Clan of the Cave Bear, Ayleh, a sapiens is brought up by Neanderthals who have little spoken language and use hand signals and subtle body language to communicate. When Ayleh returns to her own "kind" who only use spoken words she is at a tremendous loss as to what they really mean. Nothing new under the sun, huh? Btw you can hear these great books as audio on YouTube. Search Clan of the Cave Bear. Really an eye opening exploration of how things might have been In The really "old" days.


Jazz at www.newartistsrecords.com. Search Michael Levy. Use Safari for free tracks.
https://soundcloud.com/michael-levy-387395070
1915 Steinway B, Kawai MP11se, Casio AT5
Re: ES-8 [Re: yancovitch] #2783850
11/23/18 07:25 PM
11/23/18 07:25 PM
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 311
Ontario, Canada
H
halherta Offline
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halherta  Offline
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H

Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 311
Ontario, Canada
I'm no youngster. And I hate it when DP manufacturers exhibit poor QC year after year and refuse to do anything about it.Then blame shipping or the buyer's lack of experience when we complain about clicky keys. We pay hard earned money and when we buy a DP piano with this money we expect the DP to last for at least two freak'in years maybe more. If it doesn't....it's basically fraud. If I buy a DP only to find out that it has a clicky key after a couple of months (or as in some cases straight out of the box) and have to wait months to replace it under warranty only to get a replacement with even more clicky keys or have to deal with dealers who refuse to accept a brand new / almost brand new return by coming up with whatever BS excuse, then yes I have every right to complain about whichever manufacturer that made and sold that DP.

All DP manufacturers are guilty of this to some degree but some more than others. I said it before and I'll say it again. We need to use our dollars to make it clear to DP manufacturers that we want them to apply better QC to their manufacturing processes. I for one will gladly pay more for better QC. Its nothing personal against any DP manufacturer but if you want my hard earned dollars you are going to have to build a reputation around having good QC.

I really don't care about the sounds/tones. VSTs provide sounds and tones that are vastly superior to anything that you'll find built into a DP. Piano action, while it is more important in my mind, it is also deeply personal and having that 'perfect' action is in many ways an elusive goal. Even acoustic pianos suffer from inferior actions. What's more important in my opinion is: How durable is this DP? How long will it last before it needs some maintenance, and how easy is it to be maintained?

These are my opinions about this matter. I intentionally did not call out any brand names to get my message out without offending anyone's favorite DP brand.

Last edited by halherta; 11/23/18 07:33 PM.


Yamaha P-125, Pianoteq 6, Ravenscroft 275 VST, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4
Re: ES-8 [Re: jeffscot] #2783875
11/23/18 08:34 PM
11/23/18 08:34 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,312
Pennsylvania
D
dmd Offline
4000 Post Club Member
dmd  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,312
Pennsylvania
Originally Posted by jeffscot
no problem when he posts about yamaha though, huh!? wink


That has nothing to do with it.

I just happen to "know" the Kawai product and those HORRIBLE comments, I believe, are out of line.

And since the poster is does not have a track record here which we can count on …. I am skeptical.


Don

Kawai MP11SE, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs
Re: ES-8 [Re: yancovitch] #2783887
11/23/18 09:19 PM
11/23/18 09:19 PM
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 438
Istanbul
I
IosPlayer Online blank
Full Member
IosPlayer  Online Blank
Full Member
I

Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 438
Istanbul
Hmm, now I have read all the pertinent threads and understand DMD a bit better, though everyone is entitled to his opinion and maybe some are cursed with too sensitive hearing!

I have played the Shigeru patches a lot on the MP7se and detected no buzzing thru headphones at any level, but am curious to check again tomorrow before I purchase.

Perhaps Szatanica would do better with VSTs, or if that is too costly go the iOS route.

Halherta, I wonder if there is a difference between a sample defect ( if there truly is one) and clicking keys? Are they both QC issues? This thread seems to be about a sampling issue. I have noticed weaknesses in a lot of patches over several different boards, IMO it is not a QC issue as something is not actually breaking or malfunctioning. Perhaps more care should have been put into the sampling but I would say that is a deficiency, not a QC issue. Interesting thread wherever the truth lies and will not deter me from purchasing a Kawai. Wish me luck!


Jazz at www.newartistsrecords.com. Search Michael Levy. Use Safari for free tracks.
https://soundcloud.com/michael-levy-387395070
1915 Steinway B, Kawai MP11se, Casio AT5
Re: ES-8 [Re: IosPlayer] #2783899
11/23/18 10:01 PM
11/23/18 10:01 PM
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 311
Ontario, Canada
H
halherta Offline
Full Member
halherta  Offline
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H

Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 311
Ontario, Canada
@IosPlayer,
I use the term 'quality control' loosely here. It encompasses all manufacturing defects / problems including sampling. A sample defect could also be result of poor quality control while recording the sounds. Having said that the Kawai's I played always had very vibrant sounds. I have no problems with Kawai Sounds. In fact I have absolutely no problems with Kawai DPs.

I'm surprised to see that you haven't purchased a Kawai yet. I recall you were about to buy an MP11/SE like a month ago. What happened? In any case..Good luck!
They're great DPs. I'm more of a Yamaha person myself but that's OK. To each his/her own.

Doesn't matter what DP brand you are a fan of. So long as one is loud and clear about the importance of decent quality control. No one wants to spend a tonne of money on a DP only to get stuck with a lemon. I'd never wish it for myself nor for others.

Last edited by halherta; 11/23/18 10:03 PM.


Yamaha P-125, Pianoteq 6, Ravenscroft 275 VST, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4
Re: ES-8 [Re: yancovitch] #2783901
11/23/18 10:28 PM
11/23/18 10:28 PM
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 438
Istanbul
I
IosPlayer Online blank
Full Member
IosPlayer  Online Blank
Full Member
I

Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 438
Istanbul
Thanks for clarifying, Halherta. Yes, you are correct I have been moaning about getting a Kawai board for two effing months! You have to understand I live in Turkey and things can get, well, pretty Byzantine at times! Something accomplished overnight in the US or UK or Western Europe is often problematic here on the border between Europe and Asia ( I actually see both continents when I look out the window and they are both Istanbul)

Just briefly, only one store offers Kawai here and in Ankara. In this store I asked for a VPC 1. They said "No problem!" Well, the only one they had was broken when they set it up in the store. Okay, I will spend another grand and get an MP11 ( no 11se yet in Turkey). "You want MP11, no problem!" Except the only one they had was a floor model and after playing it a while there was a problem! You could not sound ppp and there was no escapement "bump" ( which I realize is just a flubdub as Lincoln said, and just a sensory illusion, but still, indicative) ok, so now I am looking at a 7se and the action is not as good as the first two and the lira has strengthened against the dollar by 25%. Ok, no problem. So they had offered to take my Roland FA 07 in trade ( no problem!) but when I went to close the deal it was... A problem! So okay, I have digested this and guess what's, the VP1 has been repaired and back in the store. I'll come try it, I say! No problem!

I hook up my iPad... You guessed it. PrObLeM! No sound. They haven't a clue.
Well PW forum when queried said I need a powered hub. Very sensible. I call the store. You have an iRig Pro I/O right? I say ( it is in their catalog!). Call back tomorrow. Tomorrow: I called my friend, he will get back to me, the salesman says. Huh? Wha? PROBLRM! The guy has to speak to his friend to see if the store has the iRig? To see if I am telling the truth? To ask the friend's sister on a date? What the heck is he calling his friend about!

Don't worry, it is just....Turkey! I am laughing, really. No problem. Tomorrow I will go down and wrassle them for the iRig and hopefully decide between theVPC1 and the 7se.... But then again... There might be a problem. Thanks for asking! This was very therapeutic.


Jazz at www.newartistsrecords.com. Search Michael Levy. Use Safari for free tracks.
https://soundcloud.com/michael-levy-387395070
1915 Steinway B, Kawai MP11se, Casio AT5
Re: ES-8 [Re: dmd] #2783904
11/23/18 10:37 PM
11/23/18 10:37 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 227
Mountain Brook, AL, USA
J
jeffscot Offline
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jeffscot  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 227
Mountain Brook, AL, USA
Originally Posted by dmd
Originally Posted by jeffscot
no problem when he posts about yamaha though, huh!? wink


That has nothing to do with it.

I just happen to "know" the Kawai product and those HORRIBLE comments, I believe, are out of line.

And since the poster is does not have a track record here which we can count on …. I am skeptical.



A lot of posters ‘know’ and appreciate their instruments.
Doesn’t make you right, and him wrong, just because your opinions and post counts differ!


.... Jeff ▫️ Yamaha P515 ▫️ Roll Tide
Re: ES-8 [Re: yancovitch] #2783905
11/23/18 10:41 PM
11/23/18 10:41 PM
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 311
Ontario, Canada
H
halherta Offline
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halherta  Offline
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H

Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 311
Ontario, Canada
Glad to be of help @Iosplayer! That's quite the ordeal. I wish you all the best! And best of luck with your piano purchasing adventure!



Yamaha P-125, Pianoteq 6, Ravenscroft 275 VST, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4
Re: ES-8 [Re: yancovitch] #2783915
11/23/18 11:54 PM
11/23/18 11:54 PM
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 438
Istanbul
I
IosPlayer Online blank
Full Member
IosPlayer  Online Blank
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Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 438
Istanbul
Thanks, Halherta, it was actually quite a bit more convoluted than that. I spared you! But will hopefully get it resolved tomorrow when I show them a wad of 9,000 lira. ( about $1800 US) No problem!


Jazz at www.newartistsrecords.com. Search Michael Levy. Use Safari for free tracks.
https://soundcloud.com/michael-levy-387395070
1915 Steinway B, Kawai MP11se, Casio AT5
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