Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
What's Hot!!
New in our online store...
Tea Light
Tea Light with Frosted Music Staff Candle Holder


-------------------
European Tour for Piano Lovers
JOIN US FOR THE TOUR!
--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2018
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


Who's Online Now
69 registered members (Aaron W, agraffe, anotherscott, asb37, 21 invisible), 1,093 guests, and 4 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 5 of 5 1 2 3 4 5
Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraber E-272 [Re: CyberGene] #2746049
06/21/18 10:33 AM
06/21/18 10:33 AM
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 668
Austria, EU
L
lophiomys Offline
500 Post Club Member
lophiomys  Offline
500 Post Club Member
L
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 668
Austria, EU
Originally Posted by CyberGene

...
First digital pianos had only one sample per key and there were still 127 velocities because the sample is replayed with different volume. And even if someone thinks there will be timbre jump, there's also sample interpolation used on digital pianos that will solve this problem too.

So, no Pianoteq won't make the piano more playable in terms of possible velocities/volumes or timbre variations. All that's also in the sample pianos.
...

You are actually describing in detail the shortcomings of sample technologiy, which are only mitigated in very expensive Multi-GB sample libraries. It is not only the lossy process of velocity layering and hopefully interpolation. It is also looping, aritifiacially adding extra noises, so that they are configurable, recording losses, ... you choose.
At a comparable price range as PianoTeq, for most digital pianos or sampleed VSTs you dont even know what exatly is inside the black box you are getting deliverd. (exceptions are probably Korg and Nord)

With physical modeling and its theoreticly infinite granularity is superior on its own.
If you like the actual sound is another topic, and a matter of personal taste.

Why is it, that Steingräber, Steinway and Grotian do actually cooperate with Pianoteq? They would not do it, if the generated piano sound would mock their products.

From my experience Pinaoteq made that difference, which made it possible for me to do my silent practice sessions with it - in other words: for me it is very much playable.

(ad) ROLAND

Click Here

Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraber E-272 [Re: lophiomys] #2746053
06/21/18 10:45 AM
06/21/18 10:45 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,129
Sofia, Bulgaria
C
CyberGene Offline
2000 Post Club Member
CyberGene  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
C
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,129
Sofia, Bulgaria
Originally Posted by lophiomys

You are actually describing in detail the shortcomings of sample technologiy, which are only mitigated in very expensive Multi-GB sample libraries. It is not only the lossy process of velocity layering and hopefully interpolation. It is also looping, aritifiacially adding extra noises, so that they are configurable, recording losses, ... you choose.
At a comparable price range as PianoTeq, for most digital pianos or sampleed VSTs you dont even know what exatly is inside the black box you are getting deliverd. (exceptions are probably Korg and Nord)

With physical modeling and its theoreticly infinite granularity is superior on its own.
If you like the actual sound is another topic, and a matter of personal taste.

I can counter-argument in the same way. Do you know how many parameters are modeled in Pianoteq. Did they model every single wooden corner and crease in the piano cabinet. The lacquer, the nuts, bolts, every single irregularity of the felt, the steel? They simply state they modeled a piano but there are thousands, millions, probably billions of tiny factors that add up to a piano sound. How can you be sure they didn't oversimplify that to only 10-20-30 parameters?

Originally Posted by lophiomys

Why is it, that Steingräber, Steinway and Grotian do actually cooperate with Pianoteq? They would not do it, if the generated piano sound would mock their products.

This isn't a real argument. And they didn't cooperate. They only allowed their name to be used. Read: they've been paid for the license. And BTW they allowed sample libraries to use brand names too.


Soundcloud Profile - solo piano compositions, arrangements, reharms
Currently: Kawai ES7 -> Garritan CFX
Previously: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraber E-272 [Re: lophiomys] #2746062
06/21/18 11:08 AM
06/21/18 11:08 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,521
A
anotherscott Online content
4000 Post Club Member
anotherscott  Online Content
4000 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,521
Originally Posted by lophiomys
Why is it, that Steingräber, Steinway and Grotian do actually cooperate with Pianoteq?


My guess is that the main reason is $.

And that if PIanoteq possibly came so close to the real thing that it would likely persuade many potential customers that they didn't need to buy one of their actual pianos after all, they would be *less* likely to do it.

Which is not to say that Pianoteq is not a good product.

In the 1970s, Hammond worked with Acetone to make the portable X2 and X5 organs, Hammond put their name on it, and these organs were quite good for what they were, but nobody would mistake them for the real thing, nor were they as good as the clonewheels available today. Years from now, we may look back at Pianoteq's current version of a Steinway as being "primitive" in the same way we now look at the early electronic Hammond simulations, which were good for their time.

Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraber E-272 [Re: CyberGene] #2746069
06/21/18 11:54 AM
06/21/18 11:54 AM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 415
S
slobajudge Offline
Full Member
slobajudge  Offline
Full Member
S
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 415
Originally Posted by CyberGene

Originally Posted by lophiomys

Why is it, that Steingräber, Steinway and Grotian do actually cooperate with Pianoteq? They would not do it, if the generated piano sound would mock their products.

And they didn't cooperate. They only allowed their name to be used. Read: they've been paid for the license.


Do you first check before you said something ? Read carefully from top to bottom especially cooperation partners.
https://www.steingraeber.de/en/innovationen/transducer/

Last edited by slobajudge; 06/21/18 11:59 AM.
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraber E-272 [Re: slobajudge] #2746079
06/21/18 12:25 PM
06/21/18 12:25 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,521
A
anotherscott Online content
4000 Post Club Member
anotherscott  Online Content
4000 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,521
Originally Posted by slobajudge
Read carefully from top to bottom especially cooperation partners.
https://www.steingraeber.de/en/innovationen/transducer/


What an interesting project, using Pianoteq modeling and transducers to supplement and alter a real acoustic piano's sounds in real time! (And Modartt was certainly a cooperating partner in that project, though I don't think that was really the question at hand.)

As for how much they feel that Pianoteq by itself fully captures all the nuances of their acoustic pianos, that's not really addressed... in fact, you could argue that if Pianoteq alone could sound fully acoustic, there would be no need for the acoustic piano in that demonstration at all! But yes, they are essentially endorsing it as current state of the art, when they say, "The startlingly-authentic grand piano sound is thanks not to out-dated sampling techniques, but to the physical modelling approach of piano sound ‘Guru’ Philippe Guillaume and his firm Modartt/pianoteq."

Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraber E-272 [Re: Tom Fort] #2746081
06/21/18 12:28 PM
06/21/18 12:28 PM
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 651
Europe
M
mcoll Offline
500 Post Club Member
mcoll  Offline
500 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 651
Europe
Thank you for the detailed answer, CyberGene!

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by mcoll
I recommend you try the Grotrian Player
...
Last thing - would it be possible to attach your preset from the CFX?


I actually legally own the Grotrian patch and it's probably my preferred Pianoteq patch among them all, although my dissatisfaction with Pianoteq as a whole still applies.

As to CFX, it's very simple: I use the stock CFX (Full version) classic patch. The only mods I apply are to switch stereo to player, decrease pedal noises, enable half-pedaling and apply my repedaling patch (described in a thread). Everything else is by default, including MIDI curve and I use the default normal touch on my Kawai ES7. BTW, I strongly suspect MIDI velocity has a lot to do with my Pianoteq struggles. I never find the touch control to be to my liking and I've tried to fix that in multiple ways, using Pianoteq curves created by other users or modifying the curve myself or just use the calibration feature and none of those work, quite on the contrary they make things even worse. This is all odd, maybe I am trying to blame my problems on the MIDI velocities while in fact the problems is simply the timbre that I don't like... Who knows. But I own the pro version of Pianoteq (I was once part of the beta testing team and my NDA has expired so I can revel that) and have a lot of options to tweak the sound and the model that I tried but it doesn't help a lot, the stock presets are already good enough.


I realized we have talked about this in the past, as I was a little surprised you already own the Grotrian.
Thank you for detailing your settings, I just sat down and tried them. They still don't do the trick for me (and I prefer mind more :)) ). The dynamic range set at 50 seems unrealistically high for me, for live playing (i.e.) the quiet notes sound too quiet and the loud ones jarringly loud. My guess (I may be wrong) is that with the normal touch curve on the ES8 and a linear curve in the CFX you don't really hit the top layers so you don't get such an extreme contrast between the quiet and the loud and you simply play the instrument at a louder volume without reaching fortissimo layers, if I may say so. But I may just as well be wrong. I tried it with a linear curve and the contrast wasn't so high, but it was because I wasn't hitting the highest velocity layers - and this also made the piano sound warmer.
One interesting side effect of the dynamic range at 50 is that the hissing in pianissimo layers is less obvious.
And my last observation sound wise is something I stated before - the quiet notes feel more distant than the normal and loud ones, which is somehow weird and the sound doesn't give me the illusion of coming from a piano in front of me.
The playability impressions remain unchanged - very good compared to other sampled pianos, but far from the feeling of realism I get with PT.

As for the debate above, that's starting to warm up, I don't see the point of trying to convince each other that one thing is "better" than the other. I was simply stating my impressions and I appreciated Gene doing the same, and was genuinely curious about the hows and whys smile
I put "Better" in quotation marks, because it's all relative for every person. It's great that there are some genuinely good options out there and everybody should enjoy what they like best.

Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraber E-272 [Re: slobajudge] #2746090
06/21/18 01:09 PM
06/21/18 01:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 268
S
stamkorg Offline
Full Member
stamkorg  Offline
Full Member
S
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 268
Originally Posted by slobajudge
Read carefully from top to bottom especially cooperation partners.
https://www.steingraeber.de/en/innovationen/transducer/


Interesting,
So there is at least a kind of partnership

Last edited by stamkorg; 06/21/18 01:09 PM.
Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraber E-272 [Re: Tom Fort] #2746092
06/21/18 01:18 PM
06/21/18 01:18 PM
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 164
Sydney, Australia
A
ArtlessArt Offline
Full Member
ArtlessArt  Offline
Full Member
A
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 164
Sydney, Australia
I have both the CFX Lite and Pianoteq with Grotian and Steinway D. To me the CFX Lite sounds nice and authentic but only for the first 5-10 mins, and then my ears get bored of it. I don't know what it is, and I can't put my finger on it, I've tried all the different settings (presets, timbre, saturation, touch curve, reverb, set to performer, all the EQ knobs) and just can't get it right. It seems 'laggy' and unresponsive to me (using 128 samples, 2.9 ms). I very much prefer the onboard sounds of 'pianist mode' than the CFX Lite. On the other hand, Pianoteq using the same 128 samples, is responsive and alive. I can play it for a couple of hours non stop switching between Grotian and Steinway D.


Kawai CA78 | Kawai ES110 | Kawai Upright | Alexander Herrmann Upright (Sold) | Korg SP170 (Sold) | JBL LSR305 // Pianoteq Stage // CFX Lite
Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraber E-272 [Re: slobajudge] #2746103
06/21/18 02:12 PM
06/21/18 02:12 PM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 301
Celestis
Granyala Offline
Full Member
Granyala  Offline
Full Member
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 301
Celestis
Originally Posted by slobajudge
Do you first check before you said something ? Read carefully from top to bottom especially cooperation partners.
https://www.steingraeber.de/en/innovationen/transducer/

Off topic:
The quartertone "music"... sounds like the battery of the piano is about to die. laugh


The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6.1 / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraber E-272 [Re: slobajudge] #2746113
06/21/18 03:24 PM
06/21/18 03:24 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,129
Sofia, Bulgaria
C
CyberGene Offline
2000 Post Club Member
CyberGene  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
C
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,129
Sofia, Bulgaria
Originally Posted by slobajudge
Originally Posted by CyberGene

Originally Posted by lophiomys

Why is it, that Steingräber, Steinway and Grotian do actually cooperate with Pianoteq? They would not do it, if the generated piano sound would mock their products.

And they didn't cooperate. They only allowed their name to be used. Read: they've been paid for the license.


Do you first check before you said something ? Read carefully from top to bottom especially cooperation partners.
https://www.steingraeber.de/en/innovationen/transducer/


It says Pianoteq helped Steingräber not the vice versa. So, still no proof of Steingräber cooperating with Pianoteq.


Soundcloud Profile - solo piano compositions, arrangements, reharms
Currently: Kawai ES7 -> Garritan CFX
Previously: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraber E-272 [Re: CyberGene] #2746129
06/21/18 04:29 PM
06/21/18 04:29 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,521
A
anotherscott Online content
4000 Post Club Member
anotherscott  Online Content
4000 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,521
Originally Posted by CyberGene
It says Pianoteq helped Steingräber not the vice versa. So, still no proof of Steingräber cooperating with Pianoteq.

Right, Modartt helped them with their transducer piano project. Whether they helped Modartt in developing their software is unknown, and kind of doubtful as I'm not sure what expertise they could have offered. I guess they could at least have cooperated to the extent of loaning them a piano (or the use of one at some studio for analysis). But really, what does it matter? If you like it, it's good. And if Steingräber recommends it as the next best thing to the real thing, that's cool. And if they don't explicitly come out and say that, it's still good. And if you don't like it, you still won't like it, regardless of what Steingräber says.

Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraber E-272 [Re: CyberGene] #2746132
06/21/18 04:32 PM
06/21/18 04:32 PM
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 533
K
karvala Offline
500 Post Club Member
karvala  Offline
500 Post Club Member
K
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 533
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I've seen a common misconception about multi-layered sampled pianos which is: there are velocity jumps between the layers. So, people assume sampled libraries will give them only say 10 velocities whereas Pianoteq will give them all 127 velocities. Wrong. First digital pianos had only one sample per key and there were still 127 velocities because the sample is replayed with different volume. And even if someone thinks there will be timbre jump, there's also sample interpolation used on digital pianos that will solve this problem too.

So, no Pianoteq won't make the piano more playable in terms of possible velocities/volumes or timbre variations. All that's also in the sample pianos.


I think that's only partly true because of a couple of important issues.

For timbre interpolation: that's far from straightforward and essentially requires some form of modelling. You do get it clearly on some VSTs; there are some where I strongly suspect there is no timbre interpolation, and others where there might be a bit of basic EQ at best. If there are sufficient samples across the dynamic range, it doesn't greatly matter; if there aren't, it can matter a great deal. Ironically, though, this is also an area in which Pianoteq has massively over-compensated; in v5, the timbre changes across velocity were excessive. One of the concrete and visible improvements in v6 in my view was that they reduced this timbre variation to a more realistic level but it's still far from perfect. So it's not a clear win for either sampled or modelled pianos.

For amplitude interpolation - yes, this happens on all DPs and VSTs, but that is dependent on properly processed samples which have an amplitude that matches their velocity layer. Surprisingly few VSTs seem to actually manage this; the Garritan CFX is one of the few that does. Some of the poorer VSTs have hugely uneven velocity response, and not because there isn't competent interpolation (which is very straightforward) but because the core samples from which the interpolation is derived are themselves not properly balanced or representative of their velocity layers. By contrast, for properly modelled pianos the amplitude will automatically match the velocity layer without needing anyone to match it up.


Broadwood, Yamaha U1; Kawai CA67; Pianoteq Std (D4, K2, Blüthner, Grotrian), Garritan CFX Full, Galaxy Vintage D, The Grandeur, Ravenscroft 275, Ivory II ACD, TrueKeys Italian, AS C7, Production Grand Compact, AK Studio Grand, AK Upright, Waves Grand Rhapsody; Sennheiser HD-600 and HD-650, O2 amp
Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraber E-272 [Re: Tom Fort] #2746136
06/21/18 04:57 PM
06/21/18 04:57 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,575
France
Frédéric L Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Frédéric L  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,575
France
When we load a Kontakt virtual piano and edit it, we see the regions : each one has its sample. With EWQL Bechstein, it is even more obvious : there is an obvious gap. I suppose that volumes of samples are not edited accurately and make the gap so obvious. (A pity, the timbre is nice!!)

Excepted this one, I didn’t hear gaps between layers on most sampled virtual piano.

If we really need many layers, VSL Vienna Imperial has 100 of them.

Last edited by Frédéric L; 06/21/18 04:59 PM.

Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Page 5 of 5 1 2 3 4 5

Moderated by  Piano World 

New Topics - Multiple Forums
Kawai RX6 heavy action
by Radio.Octave. 06/23/18 03:50 PM
Accident-prone accidentals in printed music
by FrankCox. 06/23/18 02:01 PM
Reyburn Grand Cyberhammer
by Miguel Rey. 06/23/18 12:37 PM
Should I say goodbye?
by eyeluvlucy. 06/23/18 11:48 AM
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Steingraeber
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Forum Statistics
Forums40
Topics186,108
Posts2,726,943
Members90,435
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2018 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1.1