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Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraber E-272 [Re: CyberGene] #2746049
06/21/18 09:33 AM
06/21/18 09:33 AM
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lophiomys Offline
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Originally Posted by CyberGene

...
First digital pianos had only one sample per key and there were still 127 velocities because the sample is replayed with different volume. And even if someone thinks there will be timbre jump, there's also sample interpolation used on digital pianos that will solve this problem too.

So, no Pianoteq won't make the piano more playable in terms of possible velocities/volumes or timbre variations. All that's also in the sample pianos.
...

You are actually describing in detail the shortcomings of sample technologiy, which are only mitigated in very expensive Multi-GB sample libraries. It is not only the lossy process of velocity layering and hopefully interpolation. It is also looping, aritifiacially adding extra noises, so that they are configurable, recording losses, ... you choose.
At a comparable price range as PianoTeq, for most digital pianos or sampleed VSTs you dont even know what exatly is inside the black box you are getting deliverd. (exceptions are probably Korg and Nord)

With physical modeling and its theoreticly infinite granularity is superior on its own.
If you like the actual sound is another topic, and a matter of personal taste.

Why is it, that Steingräber, Steinway and Grotian do actually cooperate with Pianoteq? They would not do it, if the generated piano sound would mock their products.

From my experience Pinaoteq made that difference, which made it possible for me to do my silent practice sessions with it - in other words: for me it is very much playable.

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Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraber E-272 [Re: lophiomys] #2746053
06/21/18 09:45 AM
06/21/18 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by lophiomys

You are actually describing in detail the shortcomings of sample technologiy, which are only mitigated in very expensive Multi-GB sample libraries. It is not only the lossy process of velocity layering and hopefully interpolation. It is also looping, aritifiacially adding extra noises, so that they are configurable, recording losses, ... you choose.
At a comparable price range as PianoTeq, for most digital pianos or sampleed VSTs you dont even know what exatly is inside the black box you are getting deliverd. (exceptions are probably Korg and Nord)

With physical modeling and its theoreticly infinite granularity is superior on its own.
If you like the actual sound is another topic, and a matter of personal taste.

I can counter-argument in the same way. Do you know how many parameters are modeled in Pianoteq. Did they model every single wooden corner and crease in the piano cabinet. The lacquer, the nuts, bolts, every single irregularity of the felt, the steel? They simply state they modeled a piano but there are thousands, millions, probably billions of tiny factors that add up to a piano sound. How can you be sure they didn't oversimplify that to only 10-20-30 parameters?

Originally Posted by lophiomys

Why is it, that Steingräber, Steinway and Grotian do actually cooperate with Pianoteq? They would not do it, if the generated piano sound would mock their products.

This isn't a real argument. And they didn't cooperate. They only allowed their name to be used. Read: they've been paid for the license. And BTW they allowed sample libraries to use brand names too.


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Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraber E-272 [Re: lophiomys] #2746062
06/21/18 10:08 AM
06/21/18 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by lophiomys
Why is it, that Steingräber, Steinway and Grotian do actually cooperate with Pianoteq?


My guess is that the main reason is $.

And that if PIanoteq possibly came so close to the real thing that it would likely persuade many potential customers that they didn't need to buy one of their actual pianos after all, they would be *less* likely to do it.

Which is not to say that Pianoteq is not a good product.

In the 1970s, Hammond worked with Acetone to make the portable X2 and X5 organs, Hammond put their name on it, and these organs were quite good for what they were, but nobody would mistake them for the real thing, nor were they as good as the clonewheels available today. Years from now, we may look back at Pianoteq's current version of a Steinway as being "primitive" in the same way we now look at the early electronic Hammond simulations, which were good for their time.

Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraber E-272 [Re: CyberGene] #2746069
06/21/18 10:54 AM
06/21/18 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene

Originally Posted by lophiomys

Why is it, that Steingräber, Steinway and Grotian do actually cooperate with Pianoteq? They would not do it, if the generated piano sound would mock their products.

And they didn't cooperate. They only allowed their name to be used. Read: they've been paid for the license.


Do you first check before you said something ? Read carefully from top to bottom especially cooperation partners.
https://www.steingraeber.de/en/innovationen/transducer/

Last edited by slobajudge; 06/21/18 10:59 AM.
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Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraber E-272 [Re: slobajudge] #2746079
06/21/18 11:25 AM
06/21/18 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by slobajudge
Read carefully from top to bottom especially cooperation partners.
https://www.steingraeber.de/en/innovationen/transducer/


What an interesting project, using Pianoteq modeling and transducers to supplement and alter a real acoustic piano's sounds in real time! (And Modartt was certainly a cooperating partner in that project, though I don't think that was really the question at hand.)

As for how much they feel that Pianoteq by itself fully captures all the nuances of their acoustic pianos, that's not really addressed... in fact, you could argue that if Pianoteq alone could sound fully acoustic, there would be no need for the acoustic piano in that demonstration at all! But yes, they are essentially endorsing it as current state of the art, when they say, "The startlingly-authentic grand piano sound is thanks not to out-dated sampling techniques, but to the physical modelling approach of piano sound ‘Guru’ Philippe Guillaume and his firm Modartt/pianoteq."

Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraber E-272 [Re: Tom Fort] #2746081
06/21/18 11:28 AM
06/21/18 11:28 AM
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Thank you for the detailed answer, CyberGene!

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by mcoll
I recommend you try the Grotrian Player
...
Last thing - would it be possible to attach your preset from the CFX?


I actually legally own the Grotrian patch and it's probably my preferred Pianoteq patch among them all, although my dissatisfaction with Pianoteq as a whole still applies.

As to CFX, it's very simple: I use the stock CFX (Full version) classic patch. The only mods I apply are to switch stereo to player, decrease pedal noises, enable half-pedaling and apply my repedaling patch (described in a thread). Everything else is by default, including MIDI curve and I use the default normal touch on my Kawai ES7. BTW, I strongly suspect MIDI velocity has a lot to do with my Pianoteq struggles. I never find the touch control to be to my liking and I've tried to fix that in multiple ways, using Pianoteq curves created by other users or modifying the curve myself or just use the calibration feature and none of those work, quite on the contrary they make things even worse. This is all odd, maybe I am trying to blame my problems on the MIDI velocities while in fact the problems is simply the timbre that I don't like... Who knows. But I own the pro version of Pianoteq (I was once part of the beta testing team and my NDA has expired so I can revel that) and have a lot of options to tweak the sound and the model that I tried but it doesn't help a lot, the stock presets are already good enough.


I realized we have talked about this in the past, as I was a little surprised you already own the Grotrian.
Thank you for detailing your settings, I just sat down and tried them. They still don't do the trick for me (and I prefer mind more :)) ). The dynamic range set at 50 seems unrealistically high for me, for live playing (i.e.) the quiet notes sound too quiet and the loud ones jarringly loud. My guess (I may be wrong) is that with the normal touch curve on the ES8 and a linear curve in the CFX you don't really hit the top layers so you don't get such an extreme contrast between the quiet and the loud and you simply play the instrument at a louder volume without reaching fortissimo layers, if I may say so. But I may just as well be wrong. I tried it with a linear curve and the contrast wasn't so high, but it was because I wasn't hitting the highest velocity layers - and this also made the piano sound warmer.
One interesting side effect of the dynamic range at 50 is that the hissing in pianissimo layers is less obvious.
And my last observation sound wise is something I stated before - the quiet notes feel more distant than the normal and loud ones, which is somehow weird and the sound doesn't give me the illusion of coming from a piano in front of me.
The playability impressions remain unchanged - very good compared to other sampled pianos, but far from the feeling of realism I get with PT.

As for the debate above, that's starting to warm up, I don't see the point of trying to convince each other that one thing is "better" than the other. I was simply stating my impressions and I appreciated Gene doing the same, and was genuinely curious about the hows and whys smile
I put "Better" in quotation marks, because it's all relative for every person. It's great that there are some genuinely good options out there and everybody should enjoy what they like best.

Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraber E-272 [Re: slobajudge] #2746090
06/21/18 12:09 PM
06/21/18 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by slobajudge
Read carefully from top to bottom especially cooperation partners.
https://www.steingraeber.de/en/innovationen/transducer/


Interesting,
So there is at least a kind of partnership

Last edited by stamkorg; 06/21/18 12:09 PM.
Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraber E-272 [Re: Tom Fort] #2746092
06/21/18 12:18 PM
06/21/18 12:18 PM
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I have both the CFX Lite and Pianoteq with Grotian and Steinway D. To me the CFX Lite sounds nice and authentic but only for the first 5-10 mins, and then my ears get bored of it. I don't know what it is, and I can't put my finger on it, I've tried all the different settings (presets, timbre, saturation, touch curve, reverb, set to performer, all the EQ knobs) and just can't get it right. It seems 'laggy' and unresponsive to me (using 128 samples, 2.9 ms). I very much prefer the onboard sounds of 'pianist mode' than the CFX Lite. On the other hand, Pianoteq using the same 128 samples, is responsive and alive. I can play it for a couple of hours non stop switching between Grotian and Steinway D.


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Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraber E-272 [Re: slobajudge] #2746103
06/21/18 01:12 PM
06/21/18 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by slobajudge
Do you first check before you said something ? Read carefully from top to bottom especially cooperation partners.
https://www.steingraeber.de/en/innovationen/transducer/

Off topic:
The quartertone "music"... sounds like the battery of the piano is about to die. laugh


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Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraber E-272 [Re: slobajudge] #2746113
06/21/18 02:24 PM
06/21/18 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by slobajudge
Originally Posted by CyberGene

Originally Posted by lophiomys

Why is it, that Steingräber, Steinway and Grotian do actually cooperate with Pianoteq? They would not do it, if the generated piano sound would mock their products.

And they didn't cooperate. They only allowed their name to be used. Read: they've been paid for the license.


Do you first check before you said something ? Read carefully from top to bottom especially cooperation partners.
https://www.steingraeber.de/en/innovationen/transducer/


It says Pianoteq helped Steingräber not the vice versa. So, still no proof of Steingräber cooperating with Pianoteq.


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Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraber E-272 [Re: CyberGene] #2746129
06/21/18 03:29 PM
06/21/18 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
It says Pianoteq helped Steingräber not the vice versa. So, still no proof of Steingräber cooperating with Pianoteq.

Right, Modartt helped them with their transducer piano project. Whether they helped Modartt in developing their software is unknown, and kind of doubtful as I'm not sure what expertise they could have offered. I guess they could at least have cooperated to the extent of loaning them a piano (or the use of one at some studio for analysis). But really, what does it matter? If you like it, it's good. And if Steingräber recommends it as the next best thing to the real thing, that's cool. And if they don't explicitly come out and say that, it's still good. And if you don't like it, you still won't like it, regardless of what Steingräber says.

Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraber E-272 [Re: CyberGene] #2746132
06/21/18 03:32 PM
06/21/18 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
I've seen a common misconception about multi-layered sampled pianos which is: there are velocity jumps between the layers. So, people assume sampled libraries will give them only say 10 velocities whereas Pianoteq will give them all 127 velocities. Wrong. First digital pianos had only one sample per key and there were still 127 velocities because the sample is replayed with different volume. And even if someone thinks there will be timbre jump, there's also sample interpolation used on digital pianos that will solve this problem too.

So, no Pianoteq won't make the piano more playable in terms of possible velocities/volumes or timbre variations. All that's also in the sample pianos.


I think that's only partly true because of a couple of important issues.

For timbre interpolation: that's far from straightforward and essentially requires some form of modelling. You do get it clearly on some VSTs; there are some where I strongly suspect there is no timbre interpolation, and others where there might be a bit of basic EQ at best. If there are sufficient samples across the dynamic range, it doesn't greatly matter; if there aren't, it can matter a great deal. Ironically, though, this is also an area in which Pianoteq has massively over-compensated; in v5, the timbre changes across velocity were excessive. One of the concrete and visible improvements in v6 in my view was that they reduced this timbre variation to a more realistic level but it's still far from perfect. So it's not a clear win for either sampled or modelled pianos.

For amplitude interpolation - yes, this happens on all DPs and VSTs, but that is dependent on properly processed samples which have an amplitude that matches their velocity layer. Surprisingly few VSTs seem to actually manage this; the Garritan CFX is one of the few that does. Some of the poorer VSTs have hugely uneven velocity response, and not because there isn't competent interpolation (which is very straightforward) but because the core samples from which the interpolation is derived are themselves not properly balanced or representative of their velocity layers. By contrast, for properly modelled pianos the amplitude will automatically match the velocity layer without needing anyone to match it up.


Broadwood, Yamaha U1; Kawai CA67; Pianoteq Std (D4, K2, Blüthner, Grotrian), Garritan CFX Full, Galaxy Vintage D, The Grandeur, Ravenscroft 275, Ivory II ACD, TrueKeys Italian, AS C7, Production Grand Compact, AK Studio Grand, AK Upright, Waves Grand Rhapsody; Sennheiser HD-600 and HD-650, O2 amp
Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraber E-272 [Re: Tom Fort] #2746136
06/21/18 03:57 PM
06/21/18 03:57 PM
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When we load a Kontakt virtual piano and edit it, we see the regions : each one has its sample. With EWQL Bechstein, it is even more obvious : there is an obvious gap. I suppose that volumes of samples are not edited accurately and make the gap so obvious. (A pity, the timbre is nice!!)

Excepted this one, I didn’t hear gaps between layers on most sampled virtual piano.

If we really need many layers, VSL Vienna Imperial has 100 of them.

Last edited by Frédéric L; 06/21/18 03:59 PM.

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Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraber E-272 [Re: Tom Fort] #2752306
07/18/18 03:05 AM
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Hi folks,

My rendition of Chopin's Nocturne Op.9 No.1 on Pianoteq's Steingraeber (Prelude preset, combined with the reverb of the warm preset).

https://youtu.be/XWcaXe0PKwo

Enjoy!


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Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraber E-272 [Re: David Izquierdo] #2752307
07/18/18 03:20 AM
07/18/18 03:20 AM
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Originally Posted by David Izquierdo
My rendition of Chopin's Nocturne Op.9 No.1 on Pianoteq's Steingraeber (Prelude preset, combined with the reverb of the warm preset). https://youtu.be/XWcaXe0PKwo

Nicely done, I enjoyed your rendition. The Pianoteq Steingraeber model is becoming my favorite ... on a side note, I also like the wall mounted computer screen. Now that I've committed to Pianoteq, it's interesting to see how people have setup their practice space.


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Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraber E-272 [Re: David Izquierdo] #2752322
07/18/18 05:31 AM
07/18/18 05:31 AM
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Originally Posted by David Izquierdo
Hi folks,

My rendition of Chopin's Nocturne Op.9 No.1 on Pianoteq's Steingraeber (Prelude preset, combined with the reverb of the warm preset).

https://youtu.be/XWcaXe0PKwo

Enjoy!


fantastic, this Steingraeber is a game changer for Pianoteq (which I never liked before)

Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraber E-272 [Re: Tom Fort] #2752358
07/18/18 09:47 AM
07/18/18 09:47 AM
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I've always been a fan of Pianoteq and this Steingraeber is really great, I sure will get the new Steingraeber at some point.

Last edited by hag01; 07/18/18 09:48 AM.
Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraber E-272 [Re: Tom Fort] #2752385
07/18/18 12:47 PM
07/18/18 12:47 PM
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What I've found is my biggest gripe with Pianoteq, is this high pitched piercing sound in the middle and high registers. The bass is all right, most VSTis, sampled and modelled, seem to get the low end right. Whether it's the easiest part to get right, the deep low frequency areas of the piano, I don't know, but I can't think of any virtual piano I've heard, with horrible sounding bass.

I don't know if I'm hearing anything others don't hear, we are all different in what we hear, and what our preferences are. I compared the sound of the Steingraeber in the above video, with the related YouTube video below, a Chopin piece played on a real piano. When the pianist was playing the middle and higher registers, it didn't hurt my ears as the Steingraeber, and most of the Pianoteq piano models, as far as I can recall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9oQEa-d5rU


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Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraber E-272 [Re: TheodorN] #2752391
07/18/18 01:18 PM
07/18/18 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by TheodorN
What I've found is my biggest gripe with Pianoteq, is this high pitched piercing sound in the middle and high registers.


I too find the sound somehow harsh around B5. And I also hear that with all the models.
Generally I use the EQ to give a little correction, and I have good results.

Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraber E-272 [Re: TheodorN] #2752404
07/18/18 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by TheodorN
What I've found is my biggest gripe with Pianoteq, is this high pitched piercing sound in the middle and high registers. The bass is all right, most VSTis, sampled and modelled, seem to get the low end right. Whether it's the easiest part to get right, the deep low frequency areas of the piano, I don't know, but I can't think of any virtual piano I've heard, with horrible sounding bass.

I don't know if I'm hearing anything others don't hear, we are all different in what we hear, and what our preferences are. I compared the sound of the Steingraeber in the above video, with the related YouTube video below, a Chopin piece played on a real piano. When the pianist was playing the middle and higher registers, it didn't hurt my ears as the Steingraeber, and most of the Pianoteq piano models, as far as I can recall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9oQEa-d5rU


compare it to this, without watching
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wmx5wpDyCFM

Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraber E-272 [Re: TheodorN] #2752443
07/18/18 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by karvala
I don't really get it. I tried it, it was okay, but very similar to the Grotrian. The tone is slightly more focused and less flabby than the Steinway D, for example, and maybe that's what people like? Honestly, though, to me it sounds like a small incremental change at best, and I'm not sure I even prefer over the other Pianoteq instruments.

What am I missing? This is all through headphones; are you guys using speakers/monitors? Are you adjusting the settings in some way? I'm genuinely curious.

Originally Posted by EssBrace
I use headphones. But I don't think that is helping or hindering.

I agree with you entirely. I don't feel it's some kind of leap forward. More of the same to my ears. Not bad. Very playable. But there's still this odd resonant ringing accompanying everything, all the time. It's not nice to my ears. And, like all modelled sounds, if you really smack it in the bass area it's just metallic clanking. Individual notes have that sine wave type of feel.

I occasionally play PT and always use the Grotrian Prelude patch. It's okay - great dynamics. Nice for a change for half an hour. Then I return to a sampled sound and everything falls back into place for me, sonically speaking.

I congratulate PT however on their policy of continuing development. It is edging forward with each update.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Downloaded the latest demo version of Pianoteq. Well, I guess it won't be a surprise that I simply can't get along with Pianoteq. And Steingraeber is no exception.

The very first notes I played were in the bass and there's this usual feeling of a sound that brings reminiscences of Mozart's time pianoforte, modern Yamaha CP80 electric grand, gypsy cymbalom and even a distant hint of a harpsichord. Which is even more pronounced the louder you play. And going across the keyboard there's still that nasal quality to the sound.

I am already 100% positive - there are people who love Pianoteq and those who dislike it and that won't ever change. Unless they change the entire engine. I don't personally need new piano brands recreated. I need a considerable refactoring of the underlying engine.

Originally Posted by TheodorN
What I've found is my biggest gripe with Pianoteq, is this high pitched piercing sound in the middle and high registers. The bass is all right, most VSTis, sampled and modelled, seem to get the low end right. Whether it's the easiest part to get right, the deep low frequency areas of the piano, I don't know, but I can't think of any virtual piano I've heard, with horrible sounding bass.

I don't know if I'm hearing anything others don't hear, we are all different in what we hear, and what our preferences are. I compared the sound of the Steingraeber in the above video, with the related YouTube video below, a Chopin piece played on a real piano. When the pianist was playing the middle and higher registers, it didn't hurt my ears as the Steingraeber, and most of the Pianoteq piano models, as far as I can recall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9oQEa-d5rU

Well said. And I have something to add:

I just tried out the Steingraeber demo myself and the first thing I noticed immediately was:

I didn't hear a Steingraeber piano.
I heard a Pianoteq 6.2.1!

This is entirely different with samples and I don't know why: When I use those I distinctively hear a Steinway, a Yamaha or a Kawai.

But Pianoteq has its own signature and it is in all "instrument models". It is so dominant, that at least for the more recent models of modern pianos, I cannot pretend anymore, that it is a different piano. And because I can't go back to believing, I think I exhausted the illusion of adding different instrument models to my Pianoteq library.


Kawai ES100 | Pianoteq 6 | Ivory II American Concert D | Steinberg UR22 | Sennheiser HD595
Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraber E-272 [Re: pold] #2752577
07/19/18 07:52 AM
07/19/18 07:52 AM
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Stamkorg I have tried with EQ, and not found the sweet spot, but I might try again.

Originally Posted by pold
compare it to this, without watching
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wmx5wpDyCFM

I'm not sure what's your point, but I listened to this, while watching, though I don't think it changed anything. If you're implying this (real) grand piano recording is also a bit high pitched, it is, but not quite like the Steingraeber. It sounded more like a Bösendorfer, a little hollow sounding, but nice sound nevertheless.


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Casio PX-5S. Garritan CFX. Prod. Voices: Grand 2 Gold, Concert Grand Compact, Est. Grand, Studio Grand LE. NI Giant. Galaxy II Blüthner Baby Grand. AcousticSamples C7. AK Studio Grand. Sampletekk Black. Kontakt 5. Reaper.
Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraber E-272 [Re: Tom Fort] #2752584
07/19/18 08:15 AM
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I appreciate and respect everyone’s taste who loves pianteq. I probably gave pianteq chances more than I did to anything/anyone in my life because I want to try so hard to make it my main piano and end this searching for the perfect sampled piano venture, but each and everytime I try it again, it fails miserably timbre wise. Its mid registers sound worse that the first Casio toy keyboard I received when I was 5 years old. It’s a shame because it has a very powerful bass and organic high registers, but the mid registers tip the scale so bad to the point where it’s useless to keep giving it more chances.

I’m glad I bought the 6.1 standard version only because i’m curious how far updates will lift it in terms of realism.

Luckily, I have a sampled piano which I believe is hands down the most playabale and accurately detailed sounding piano and it’s currently the number 1 candidate for me to use for my next solo piano album. Im talking about the Garritan CFX.

Last edited by tdwctdwc; 07/19/18 08:17 AM.
Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraber E-272 [Re: Tom Fort] #2752887
07/20/18 07:54 PM
07/20/18 07:54 PM
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If you like sampled grands, you need to try the Embertone 1955 Steinway. Not as playable as Pianoteq, mind you.

Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraber E-272 [Re: Tom Fort] #2760682
08/24/18 08:06 AM
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First I updates my 6.1.1 to 6.2.2 and was surprised how much better my existing pianos (Steinway D, K2, Bluethner) are sounding (more lively, more punch, pleasant attack compared to sampled VST such as CFX/Fazioli/Ravenscroft and very clean sounding without hurting my ears on the higher registers). The Steinway D is now more present, almost coming to live, K2 less ear piercing on higher registers and especially the Bluethner now back to the original glory when I bought it with Piaonoteq V5.
But then I tried the Steingraeber E-272 and wow, every key press seems to be having a particular character of its own: you can follow the sound made for a long time even having other subsequent keys pressed during sustain. And I believe: for the first time I can recognize whether I have too much sustain going on a VST. On an acoustic it becomes quickly obvious if you have too much resonance but now I can hear it in Pianoteq!
It's now my favorite as modeled piano sound. The shorter load time also makes it to my go-to practice VST on my VPC-1. My sample pianos are of course on their own league but the responsiveness of Pianoteq is very attractive!


[Kawai VPC1/ES100 - VSTs: Garritan CFX, VILabs Italian Grand, Ravenscroft 275 | Pianoteq 6 Standard: Steingraeber E-272, Bluethner - Ableton Live 9 Lite, Tascam US2x2, Mackie BIG KNOB, SMSL HP-AMP, Schiit Fulla 2 - Sennheiser HD700 / Sony MDRV6 - Presonus E5+T10, iloud micro monitors]
Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraber E-272 [Re: Tom Fort] #2760792
08/24/18 05:56 PM
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The ease of how modelled piano VSTi developers improve sound IMO showing how they effectively "milking" users. I exactly remember my emotions the day I bought Arturia - Piano V2. On those days it was a huge step ahead over Pianoteq in terms of sound. I was impressed by its sound. And it was widely discussed here and on VI-control, generally in a key: " Finally Pianoteq got a really strong competitor as in terms of possibilities and financial opportunities Arturia is a Giant company compared to Modart. And now as a developer with a big potential and experience in software and hardware design, Arturia will achieve success in piano modelling very fast. Pianoteq have to try hard to improve the sound".

And Pianoteq did! Only a few weeks later I updated Pianoteq and was shocked: They improved sound very much and became better than Piano V2. If you will install Piano V demo today you will not believe your ears how Pianoteq improved the sound still being unnatural. Please note, not excellent and natural, just better. These are just marketing games. With every new version, they have to be just a little bit better to have normal sales and growing business. The perfect product will destroy their business.

There is another strong player in the modelling field: "Applied Acoustics Systems" (AAS). With their amazing "Lounge Lizard EP-4" E-Pianos they already blew away Arturia and Pianoteq. They are not even close. AAS in e-pianos is competing with sample libraries and personally, I like it more than most sampled Rhodes and Wurlies. If they will decide to take part in the "piano race" we will get the really great modelled pianos from all these companies in a very short time.

Not talking about UVI now. They are too lazy to take part in such games. Their "Falcon" is IMO The Best synthesizer in the world. Nothing can sound like a real analog hardware like a Falcon does. But they even not release enough expansions for it, the easiest way all synth developers can earn the money. But if they would release modelled piano they definitely would shake the market.

Just dreaming...


Casio PX-350
Komplete 10 Ult.: UVI - Falcon; Pianoteq - 6 Std; Galaxy - Vintage D; PV - Concert Grand LE, Production Grand - 2 LE, Estate Grand; Lounge Lizard EP-4; Neo-Soul Keys; AS - C7 Grand; Addictive Keys- All
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Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraber E-272 [Re: Tom Fort] #2760795
08/24/18 06:17 PM
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Slightly off topic: I’ve noticed that the Studiologic SL88 Grand is not available at any of the major online retailers (Sweet, Kraft, Guitar C., Musician’s, American M. etc.) Are we to make something of this, or is it simply a coincidence?

Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraber E-272 [Re: Pete14] #2760796
08/24/18 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
Slightly off topic: I’ve noticed that the Studiologic SL88 Grand is not available at any of the major online retailers (Sweet, Kraft, Guitar C., Musician’s, American M. etc.) Are we to make something of this, or is it simply a coincidence?


Probably a regional distribution issue more than anything else. I hear about Studiologic controllers frequently in the EU but rarely in the US market. Maybe they just don't have their NA distribution channel set up.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraber E-272 [Re: Tom Fort] #2760798
08/24/18 06:29 PM
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That makes sense, so I won’t speculate about ‘new models on the way’. smile

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