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Re: Corner bass traps [Re: PhilipInChina] #2704981
01/15/18 12:31 AM
01/15/18 12:31 AM
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Kuwait
PhilipInChina Online content OP
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I am toying with the idea of making my own.

Probably a better idea is not to bother and invest the money saved in gin.


Currently working towards "Twinkle twinkle little star"
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Re: Corner bass traps [Re: PhilipInChina] #2704990
01/15/18 01:34 AM
01/15/18 01:34 AM
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Or find the best piano technician you can find and make sure the piano is tuned and voiced perfectly. Nothing that you do to the room will improve the sound if it is bad at the outset.


Semipro Tech
Re: Corner bass traps [Re: PhilipInChina] #2705026
01/15/18 05:52 AM
01/15/18 05:52 AM
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PhilipInChina Online content OP
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The piano in the music room is absolutely to my taste in every respect. It's just that the room is a bit bright. This applies across all the instruments in there.


Currently working towards "Twinkle twinkle little star"
Re: Corner bass traps [Re: David-G] #2705033
01/15/18 06:33 AM
01/15/18 06:33 AM
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Chapel Hill, NC
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Originally Posted by David-G
So, I am wondering why I don't seem to have this problem in my piano room. The room is about 23' x 13' x 8'8". The piano is in the corner, with the left side of the piano slightly angled to the long wall.

Do I not have a problem because:

(a) nobody else plays the piano, so I am always at the keyboard - I can't walk around looking for standing-wave nodes or antinodes,
(b) the room is carpeted and the far end wall is entirely covered by curtain,
(c) any other reason?

There could be a variety of reasons. The most common reason is that open floor plans give the low frequencies lots of places to go. But even living rooms in houses with open floor plans have corners where bass can get muddy and uneven.

Another possible reason could be the thickness of the walls. Walls made of a single layer of gypsum wallboard on studs allow a great deal of the bass to pass right through them, greatly mitigating the amount of bass reflecting off the walls and back into the room. This is why the problems are more pronounced in recording studios where the walls tend too be thicker.

The more massive a wall is, the lower the resonant frequency. And since frequencies above the resonant frequency of the wall are mostly reflected back into the room, rooms that are better isolated will have more internal problems at low frequencies. This is one of the great ironies of acoustics: the better isolated a room is, the worse it sounds, unless appropriate measures are taken to deal with the room boundary interference issues. In other words, soundproofing and sound treatment are two separate things, and the more you do of the former, the more you will need to do of the latter.


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Re: Corner bass traps [Re: PhilipInChina] #2705042
01/15/18 08:27 AM
01/15/18 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by PhilipInChina
I am toying with the idea of making my own.

Probably a better idea is not to bother and invest the money saved in gin.

I thought you had hired a technician to get things done. I say this because, while bass traps are more generic and massive, perhaps you don't need them.
There are tuneable bass traps (VARI-BASS TRAPS) and if you know wich frequencies are your target you tune the trap according to them. They aren't that big.


Learning piano from scratch since September, 2012.
Kawai ES7.Kawai K-200
Re: Corner bass traps [Re: PhilipInChina] #2705047
01/15/18 09:27 AM
01/15/18 09:27 AM
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Kuwait
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I, too. thought I had hired a technician! He hasn't been back to me since before Christmas and now his phone is off. When I am the customer, I don't do the chasing.


Currently working towards "Twinkle twinkle little star"
Re: Corner bass traps [Re: PhilipInChina] #2705056
01/15/18 10:29 AM
01/15/18 10:29 AM
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East Coast, USA
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Compressed fiberglass is pretty cheap, use that with say a layer of burlap over it and you will get good results. Other fabrics could be used as well. I do not know how much money building one would save.


I now have a signature.
Re: Corner bass traps [Re: PhilipInChina] #2705079
01/15/18 11:33 AM
01/15/18 11:33 AM
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Kuwait
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The slabs of rockwool available here are 1m x 50cm. I thought I could cut those into 2 squares, then each of those into 2 triangles. Thereby getting 4 triangles per piece That, I think, will give me 2 metres in height per pack, so I shall need 6 packs.

I have a very good joiner here, who could make me some frames to cover the fronts and it would be simple enough to cover the frames with some form of fabric.

If it ends up not working I shall simply dump the stuff in my roof space!

Last edited by PhilipInChina; 01/15/18 11:47 AM.

Currently working towards "Twinkle twinkle little star"
Re: Corner bass traps [Re: PhilipInChina] #2705194
01/15/18 04:21 PM
01/15/18 04:21 PM
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BDB, you Clearly have no clue as to what is being discussed here. No one is talking about improving the sound of the piano. Tha acoustics of the listening space needs to be flat. I.e. No resonant peaks, in order to hear the sound source accurately. Most people who purchase quality pianos want to hear them the way the builder intended.

Re: Corner bass traps [Re: PhilipInChina] #2705207
01/15/18 04:54 PM
01/15/18 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by PhilipInChina
The slabs of rockwool available here are 1m x 50cm. I thought I could cut those into 2 squares, then each of those into 2 triangles. Thereby getting 4 triangles per piece That, I think, will give me 2 metres in height per pack, so I shall need 6 packs.

I have a very good joiner here, who could make me some frames to cover the fronts and it would be simple enough to cover the frames with some form of fabric.

If it ends up not working I shall simply dump the stuff in my roof space!

Exactly what I did in my home studio, it worked very well.

Re: Corner bass traps [Re: PhilipInChina] #2705225
01/15/18 06:30 PM
01/15/18 06:30 PM
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A value in loading a duvet with rock wool and hanging that behind an upright?


Kawai GX-2
Re: Corner bass traps [Re: Mzrt] #2705271
01/15/18 09:07 PM
01/15/18 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Mzrt
BDB, you Clearly have no clue as to what is being discussed here. No one is talking about improving the sound of the piano. Tha acoustics of the listening space needs to be flat. I.e. No resonant peaks, in order to hear the sound source accurately. Most people who purchase quality pianos want to hear them the way the builder intended.

Why?

Do you think that builders listen to their pianos in flat listening spaces?


Semipro Tech
Re: Corner bass traps [Re: BDB] #2705392
01/16/18 09:54 AM
01/16/18 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by BDB
Originally Posted by Mzrt
BDB, you Clearly have no clue as to what is being discussed here. No one is talking about improving the sound of the piano. Tha acoustics of the listening space needs to be flat. I.e. No resonant peaks, in order to hear the sound source accurately. Most people who purchase quality pianos want to hear them the way the builder intended.

Why?

Do you think that builders listen to their pianos in flat listening spaces?



Recording studios are acoustically treated spaces to make them flat - equally responsive to all fequencies. Then additional adjustments are made within the recording spaces to rectify any issues with individual instruments being recorded whether piano, guitars, drums, organs, orchestra, vocals, etc. This thread is about extending those principles into the home to enhance the listening experience.

Maybe I need bass traps in my son's room so I don't hear the thumping bass from his music downstairs. lol.

Last edited by GC13; 01/16/18 09:56 AM.
Re: Corner bass traps [Re: BDB] #2705450
01/16/18 02:08 PM
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BDB. I think you're just screwing with us.

Re: Corner bass traps [Re: Mzrt] #2705600
01/17/18 03:04 AM
01/17/18 03:04 AM
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I think the people who make things like bass traps are screwing with us. Certainly I do not make any money by selling people something with vague properties that is supposed to solve a problem which may not even be what the person is complaining about.

I have solved a lot of acoustic problems in my lifetime. Not one of them involved bass traps.


Semipro Tech
Re: Corner bass traps [Re: BDB] #2705624
01/17/18 04:50 AM
01/17/18 04:50 AM
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Melbourne, Australia
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Originally Posted by BDB
I think the people who make things like bass traps are screwing with us. Certainly I do not make any money by selling people something with vague properties that is supposed to solve a problem which may not even be what the person is complaining about.

It's only vague because you are uneducated on the subject, BDB. You basically confessed that you have no interest in the subject when you denied that rooms even need to be treated for acoustic problems. You have rejected more than just bass traps in your scorn against acoustic treatments. When an actual acoustic expert assesses a room and installs real solutions, they do work. It's not vague, it's calculated. Some spaces have better results than others because some rooms have very severe limitations to overcome. But the only time it's vague is when people try to do it themselves but they fail to understand the issues at play. These two situations should not be conflated.

Quote
I have solved a lot of acoustic problems in my lifetime. Not one of them involved bass traps.

No, you haven't. You don't even believe in the science that leads to things like bass traps - you are on record as saying that. All you have done is voice some hammers and called that a solution. People might come to you to service their piano, but they call a real acoustic expert after you leave if what you do isn't sufficient.

Re: Corner bass traps [Re: PhilipInChina] #2705627
01/17/18 05:05 AM
01/17/18 05:05 AM
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To be fair, I'm not sure, too, about the amount of efficacy of either bass traps, absorbers, or diffussers FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE PLAYER.
Here we are not talking (are we?) about any audience or recording quality.
So, from a player's perspective, isn't the main sound font stronger enough than reflected sound?
If a piano has powerful bass...don't put it in a standard living room unless you have enough air for the waves to develope in a certain way. Perhaps what BDB is trying to say is: first the piano, then the room.


Learning piano from scratch since September, 2012.
Kawai ES7.Kawai K-200
Re: Corner bass traps [Re: PhilipInChina] #2705648
01/17/18 06:53 AM
01/17/18 06:53 AM
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Scotland
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Originally Posted by PhilipInChina
The piano in the music room is absolutely to my taste in every respect. It's just that the room is a bit bright. This applies across all the instruments in there.

Philip,

Remind me how you finished the roof of you ballroom? Was it not corrigated at one time?

Ian


I'm all keyed up
2016 Blüthner Model A
Re: Corner bass traps [Re: mabraman] #2705687
01/17/18 10:20 AM
01/17/18 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by mabraman
To be fair, I'm not sure, too, about the amount of efficacy of either bass traps, absorbers, or diffussers FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE PLAYER.
Here we are not talking (are we?) about any audience or recording quality.
So, from a player's perspective, isn't the main sound font stronger enough than reflected sound?
If a piano has powerful bass...don't put it in a standard living room unless you have enough air for the waves to develope in a certain way. Perhaps what BDB is trying to say is: first the piano, then the room.


It makes a difference from my experience. But not just bass traps, you need to delay the sound reflections with dispersion.

Just think as if you are sitting behind the piano in a concert hall or large recital all vs your living room. You will hear a difference because of the sound delay. Even minor piano room positions and turning on a ceiling fan will change the sound of the piano from the players perspective, that all has to do with reflections. Of course the living room scenario will be more tricky to tame but there will be a difference if panels are done correctly.

I would think a piano tech would be able to distinguish how different pianos sound in different room sizes and furnishings.


Last edited by Miguel Rey; 01/17/18 10:25 AM.



Re: Corner bass traps [Re: PhilipInChina] #2705690
01/17/18 10:37 AM
01/17/18 10:37 AM
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Kuwait
PhilipInChina Online content OP
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Beemer, the ballroom roof is what I think is known as a "Cathedral roof" in the colonies. It is peaked about 5 metres high with oak beams. The slates are underdrawn with 50mm of expanded polystyrene foam. The issue which I am looking at, here, though is the acoustics in the music room. That has oak beams supporting the floor above. Under those is a layer of glass wool and suspended under that is a plasterboard ceiling, which is what I think is also called drywall.


Currently working towards "Twinkle twinkle little star"
Re: Corner bass traps [Re: mabraman] #2705699
01/17/18 11:11 AM
01/17/18 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by mabraman
Perhaps what BDB is trying to say is: first the piano, then the room.

That's being much too generous. He clearly said that people who sell bass traps are conning their customers. If he meant first piano, then room, there are a thousand infinitely better ways to say it. It's his typical style - very knowledgable about some things, but scornfully dismisses things he doesn't understand. If I were an acoustic expert like Wes, I'd be pretty displeased with how BDB is misrepresenting my profession.

Re: Corner bass traps [Re: ando] #2705718
01/17/18 12:28 PM
01/17/18 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by BDB
I think the people who make things like bass traps are screwing with us. Certainly I do not make any money by selling people something with vague properties that is supposed to solve a problem which may not even be what the person is complaining about.

It's only vague because you are uneducated on the subject, BDB. You basically confessed that you have no interest in the subject when you denied that rooms even need to be treated for acoustic problems. You have rejected more than just bass traps in your scorn against acoustic treatments. When an actual acoustic expert assesses a room and installs real solutions, they do work. It's not vague, it's calculated. Some spaces have better results than others because some rooms have very severe limitations to overcome. But the only time it's vague is when people try to do it themselves but they fail to understand the issues at play. These two situations should not be conflated.

Quote
I have solved a lot of acoustic problems in my lifetime. Not one of them involved bass traps.

No, you haven't. You don't even believe in the science that leads to things like bass traps - you are on record as saying that. All you have done is voice some hammers and called that a solution. People might come to you to service their piano, but they call a real acoustic expert after you leave if what you do isn't sufficient.


Oh, so you claim to be an expert on me (from half a world away) as well as acoustics! I will leave it to others to decide whether or not you are creditable.


Semipro Tech
Re: Corner bass traps [Re: BDB] #2705727
01/17/18 01:16 PM
01/17/18 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by BDB


Oh, so you claim to be an expert on me (from half a world away) as well as acoustics! I will leave it to others to decide whether or not you are creditable.

You're on record as stating that acoustic treatment is a big con - even in this thread. You've said it in the past too. Maybe you should be less scathing of what you don't understand if you want to escape criticism.

Re: Corner bass traps [Re: PhilipInChina] #2705730
01/17/18 01:25 PM
01/17/18 01:25 PM
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One doesn't have to be an expert to see your game, BDB. Arguing with BDB is like wrestling with a pig. You get dirty and the pig loves it.

Will Truitt


fine grand piano custom rebuilding, piano technician and tuner
Re: Corner bass traps [Re: ando] #2705735
01/17/18 01:42 PM
01/17/18 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by BDB


Oh, so you claim to be an expert on me (from half a world away) as well as acoustics! I will leave it to others to decide whether or not you are creditable.

You're on record as stating that acoustic treatment is a big con - even in this thread. You've said it in the past too. Maybe you should be less scathing of what you don't understand if you want to escape criticism.


I did not say that. I said that buying a solution for a problem that has not been properly diagnosed and may or may not exist is unwise.


Semipro Tech
Re: Corner bass traps [Re: PhilipInChina] #2705746
01/17/18 02:06 PM
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I've seen plenty of Ando's discussions over the years, they are always thoughtful and reasoned. This is no exception. You on the other hand, have come to this thread with no knowledge of what you speak, and nothing constructive to offer the OP's original question. That pretty much qualifies as trolling. Please, go tune someone's piano.

Re: Corner bass traps [Re: PhilipInChina] #2705762
01/17/18 03:01 PM
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In coming up on 12 years of owning my D, I've have spent easily close to 5K in high quality Pro tunings - by someone I consider to be the best pure tuner in LA - along with a yearly voicing and regulation. Yet my humble studio space has always had serious acoustic deficiencies. It's 20' X 20' drywall with an A frame wood ceiling that peaks at 15' in the middle.

The parallel walls contribute to an ugly slap back echo and a harsh, sharp tone on any instrument - acoustic or electric. Basically I put up with it but the room could highly benefit from acoustical treatment.

I just spent 4K on a mini-split cooling and heating system last summer. I was torn between that and spending the money for acoustical treatment. But the brutal heat of the LA summers won out. On hot days the heat would build up to a point so by around 2:30 PM you couldn't stand to be in there, much less get any serious focused practicing in..

Les gave me some excellent advice on diffusors and some absorption. I still want the room to have a live sound , not dead like a rock recording studio. When I do this, I'd like to do it right and not cheese out. I'm not a DIY kind of guy so I know it won't be cheap to have it done really well. Work for me is slow, so not sure I can even swing it this year. I probably will have to wait indefinitely on it. But it is a high priority.

You know we should all be appreciative when someone like Les takes his time to post here . This was a monumental project and he received a nomination for the Tec Award, as well as a write up in Mix Magazine and other trade journals. This is very serious high end Pro stuff he does..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyFcTF5Y-Ec


https://soundcloud.com/dave-ferris

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Yamaha CP4, CP5
Re: Corner bass traps [Re: PhilipInChina] #2705813
01/17/18 06:19 PM
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Sorry, I was thinking about the wrong room.

Ian


I'm all keyed up
2016 Blüthner Model A
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