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Hi, I have noticed quite an unpleasant behavior of the velocity sample switching on my Kawai MP7. Especially when playing the electric piano sounds you can hear very distinct switching, it seems there are only 6 samples layers. On the acoustic piano sounds it is much better regarding the sudden switching, though there is much less dynamic and it seems almost as if there would be 2-3 sample layers with added resonances on the top of it. Despite this actually I like very much the acoustic piano sound of the MP7, but always feel it being compressed or limited regarding the dynamic and tonal expression. Listen to the recordings I made.

The life could be easier if the manufacturer would clearly communicate number of layers and provide the transparent information about the switching techniques, sample length, memory, processors etc. Unfortunately all they usually give is a marketing blah-blah.

Of course I know that tech specs would not and can not be the only or maybe not even a main criteria but this could help. So whats left is our hearing. At the moment I own only the Kawai MP7, here are my recordings. Could the owners of other instruments test this and post the recordings? You can use the attached MIDI files or the MAX patch to easy "play" the 127 notes with stepping velocity value. I am really interested in the outcome. Maybe we will have more transparency that way Especially for the new Roland RD2000 v-piano based sound and their SN electric pianos as well - anyone there?

here my recording, have a look especially at the electric pianos (ep_* file names), password for the file: "velocity"

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1flBe5N3YXiu2O8neUeXOi0N_ZQHVnW8a/view?usp=sharing

P.S. to make it more interesting at the start-up I uploaded 3 electric piano examples also to the soundcloud for a quick listen.
soundcloud

Count your blessings. My Clavinova has only three velocity layers. The layer switching between layers two and three is striking ... and annoying ... especially in the C5 octave. VSTs to the rescue!

Very common on all sample-based EPs in hardware unfortunately. 6 layers is very good. VSTs can have up to about 20 (Scarbee, eInstruments Sesssion Keys-R). The only other solution is to smooth it out with some kind of modelling or go full modelled, as in the EP88 in Logic. They don't sound quite as organic, but adding warmth through amps emulations improves things.

Oh, I see, I am not in a very bad situation at all Of course I am kind of aware it must be expected with sample based piano, but still I was amazed after checking this with the midi control. So probably not a big chance the Super (un)Natural pianos of Roland RD2000 being any better. Let‘s see maybe some RD2000 player will come in.
I guess in a loudy live / stage context it is not very important and in studio I use software instruments anyway (Lounge Lizard / Pianoteq and Logic). That is just the dream to have a stage piano which sounds the same quality as the modeled virtual instruments. Actually technically should not be a problem with the know how of the big brands; and as the hardware (cpu/ram/ssd) is cheap, then why not? Lets hope for the future...

Anyone interested in "velocity switching" should browse through the "DPBSD" thread. There's a lot of information there, since one of the DPBSD tests was set up to display it.

My memory is that it was a problem in some DP's tested at the beginning of the thread. But by the end of the thread, the major makers were making DP's that were _very_ smooth, with very nice progressive mixing of layers, as MIDI velocity increased.

My guess: the main reason they are so stingy with tech updates is long term profitability. Release upgrades in tidbits and you can hook customers for decades to come.

Once you put full unlooped samples and 10+ velocity layers out there, where do you go?
Also 50-60GB of sample memory will impose rather nasty load times on slim hardware.

Though an unlooped SK-EX would certainly be nice. Of all the DP videos I have seen, I still like the warmth of KAWAI the most.

Hello memtrix, welcome to the forum.



I do not believe the electric piano sounds on Kawai DPs employ sample blending, so there will be some audible velocity switching - especially if replaying the same note repeatedly with gradually increasing velocity.



The acoustic piano sounds employ Kawai's Harmonic Imaging technology to produce smooth tonal transitions.

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,
James
x

Roland SuperNatural EPs use modeling so you do get smoother velocity transitions. That said, I don't think their EPs sound as good as numerous sampled competitors, but that's subjective. Velocity switching is only one piece of the puzzle.


That thread only deals with velocity switching in AP sounds, iirc. While the concept is the same, velocity switching in EPs is more demanding. It is not uncommon for a board's EP sounds to have more velocity layers than its AP sounds, yet still have more noticeable velocity shifts.


There's always a conspiracy theorist. ;-) Anyway, Kronos (and now GrandStage) pretty much give you what you describe (okay, 8 velocity layers), and yet not everyone thinks they are the best sounding boards. As I said in another thread, every manufacturer looks for a competitive edge over the others, and different companies take different approaches to get what they think is the best sound they can get at some targeted cost. Korg uses the method of large sets of sample data, other companies take different approaches based on their own technologies and areas of expertise. But if you want "VST performance," no board is going to give you that as cost-effectively as you can do it yourself with a VST.

Everything anotherscott said, plus 1.

You assume that the computer capable of running demanding VSTs is free.

1) Roland already gives us pianoteq like performance at competitive pricepoints.
2) The other manufacturers already have unlooped sample data handy (I seriously doubt that e.g.: KAWAI records their SK-EX with 4s samples Oo). All it would cost is a wee bit of memory and some processing power to use it. It would probably not be feasible to put PC hardware costing 800€ in products costing 2000€ total, given the CPU performance requirements. It boggles my mind that products like Novus and Avant grand do not use it though. These are so expensive, that a bit of CPU grunt and memory should be peanuts compared to the rest.

IF you already have a powerful PC at home, yes you would be right: no way a DP maker could compete with spending 100-300€ on a VST and 5€ on some cables.

No I don't.

There are two possibilities, though. One, you already own a sufficiently capable computer, in which case incremental cost is relatively low. Or two, you need to buy a sufficiently capable computer, in which case it's still going to be the most cost effective way to get those capabilities, because a low-volume niche product manufacturer is not going to be able to give you x amount of computing power as cheaply as Dell or even Apple can.

I see your point about being surprised that even a high priced Avant Grand has the technical limitations it does. OTOH, people who have played Avant Grands often say they are among the best DP experiences they've had. So Yamaha is apparently doing something right, even if lagging on technical specs.

Kurzweil Forte has 16GB of samples, nota bene, for all instruments. Does anyone here have experience of that not exactly entry level board?

There are so many offsetting pros & cons involved in trying to compare a DP with a VST, it seems almost pointless to wander down such rabbit holes...

One is a stand-alone replica of a real acoustic instrument, and the other is a replica of a stand-alone replica of a real acoustic instrument. You decide