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I get what you are saying about allowing the notes to float in at the end of the measure.
My approach has been to line up the notes that are supposed to land on the first note of the thirds, and interpolate the others. It's very important to note that the final note in some of the runs must land on the fist beat of the next measure as it seems to anchor that measure, and in many instances the final note of the 16th note run is the only note on the first beat of the next measure.
So between the lining up, the interpolation, and the final note constraint, there's not much more to think about. I've practiced some of these measures dozens of times and I have it, but will practice it dozens of more times until it's more fluent and up to speed. Then I'll really have it. I can tell, though, that's it's getting there and feel it will pay dividends in my future playing abilities and ability to tackle similar pieces.
Of course the L hand notes are in a sequence and represent chords I haven't frequently encountered, so as they come together and I no longer have to think about them, that helps. It is also helpful that the L hand pattern is constant through most of the piece.
Isn't this a case where the left and right hands have different time signatures? The right hand is C and the left hand 12/8. I certainly try to play it that way and treat it as an exercise in hand independence - apart from being 'nice' to play.
My approach has been to line up the notes that are supposed to land on the first note of the thirds, and interpolate the others. It's very important to note that the final note in some of the runs must land on the fist beat of the next measure as it seems to anchor that measure, and in many instances the final note of the 16th note run is the only note on the first beat of the next measure.
So between the lining up, the interpolation, and the final note constraint, there's not much more to think about.
That's good to think about how things need to line up. Once you've gotten all that nailed down, the rest of it tends to fall into place naturally. I used to spend so much time trying to figure out exactly how 4 against 3 or 5 against 11 or whatever lined up mathematically...I never got better at playing it until I realized that is just almost never the intent of the composer. The most obvious constraints in any piece of music are the beats, so that's where I always start. That takes care of 90% of all rhythmic issues, I would estimate.
Originally Posted by cmb13
Of course the L hand notes are in a sequence and represent chords I haven't frequently encountered, so as they come together and I no longer have to think about them, that helps. It is also helpful that the L hand pattern is constant through most of the piece.
You should figure out what those chords are, and play them by themselves. When I look at this piece, the chord shapes do jump out at me, which certainly makes reading this easier for me. In time, that will happen for you too.
Originally Posted by Colin Miles
Isn't this a case where the left and right hands have different time signatures? The right hand is C and the left hand 12/8. I certainly try to play it that way and treat it as an exercise in hand independence - apart from being 'nice' to play.
That's a good question. I am not an expert on Liszt, so I don't feel comfortable giving a definite statement on this, but I will just tell you my opinion. The left hand plays 12 notes in every measure, yes, but 12 is too high a number for your brain to handle. I would treat both hands as being in 4/4. So, the left hand is playing triplets.
(As a general rule, I never like to think of hands as playing in separate time signatures. The beat needs to be felt in your whole body, so trying to separate like this is a recipe for confusion. You need to find something that works for both hands. The 'separate time signatures', if it exists, is more of an aural illusion for the listener, not the performer.)
Now, Liszt does not explicitly notate triplets in the left hand, but rather covers the whole measure with one slur. I think what he is trying to say is that the whole measure should be felt basically in 1 beat. However, practice the way I am suggesting, to start with. There are four beats in every measure, so make sure both hands can play together, landing on each of the four beats, together. Once you have mastered this, I think you will find it relatively easy to play around with the rhythm to make it subtler or more obvious, depending on your vision of the piece.
Also, it seems to me that one should be familiar with this kind of music in order to understand where Liszt is coming from:
[quote=MichaelJK That's a good question. I am not an expert on Liszt, so I don't feel comfortable giving a definite statement on this, but I will just tell you my opinion. The left hand plays 12 notes in every measure, yes, but 12 is too high a number for your brain to handle. I would treat both hands as being in 4/4. So, the left hand is playing triplets.[/quote]
It's 4 sets of 3. So you just play it that way and it shouldn't be difficult for the brain to manage it. What is more difficult is the fact that it is played slowly. Chopin's Fantasie - Impromptu is much 'easier' to play as it is much faster!
Last edited by Colin Miles; 01/18/1812:45 PM. Reason: corrections
That's a good question. I am not an expert on Liszt, so I don't feel comfortable giving a definite statement on this, but I will just tell you my opinion. The left hand plays 12 notes in every measure, yes, but 12 is too high a number for your brain to handle. I would treat both hands as being in 4/4. So, the left hand is playing triplets.
It's 4 sets of 3. So you just play it that way and it shouldn't be difficult for the brain to manage it.
Right, exactly. To me, that doesn't feel like the hands are independent, but rather like they are together. The left hand has 3 notes per beat, the right hand 2, but the beats line up.
That's a good question. I am not an expert on Liszt, so I don't feel comfortable giving a definite statement on this, but I will just tell you my opinion. The left hand plays 12 notes in every measure, yes, but 12 is too high a number for your brain to handle. I would treat both hands as being in 4/4. So, the left hand is playing triplets.
It's 4 sets of 3. So you just play it that way and it shouldn't be difficult for the brain to manage it.
Right, exactly. To me, that doesn't feel like the hands are independent, but rather like they are together. The left hand has 3 notes per beat, the right hand 2, but the beats line up.
I think you are over-thinking it. Just feel the music and let your hands take control - separately - and they will line up.
I think you are over-thinking it. Just feel the music and let your hands take control - separately - and they will line up.
My comments were addressed to someone who is having difficulty playing the piece. If feeling the music is working for you, then keep doing it. I don't mean to argue with that.
Is there a change in key in this piece? Right around M21-M28, the flats are removed from several notes, as if it changes to the key of C? We then begin to see C# and F# around M28. Thoughts?
I have the piece mostly completed but as I finish the final measures I had a few questions. The 3/2 is no longer a problem, it is basically coming naturally after a few weeks of practice. Even as I get to new measures, with new notes to learn, I can just play the rhythms without difficulty. I'm really pleased about this as it certainly adds to my skill set.
I also spent some time reading an older thread on the chord analysis of this piece, which is interesting. I've been meaning to try to play the chords blocked just to hear the progression, just for fun.
One thing I find challenging is playing the thirds, which of course have black and white keys together, perfectly simultaneously; seems I'm off by a few hundredths of a second, just barely noticeable, but I notice it. I'm working on getting those to be perfectly simultaneous even when played pp. I also have not yet worked on the 32nd notes towards the end. Overall, it's coming along, and is quite a lovely piece.
Of course, just to clarify the above post, Moo, I believe you meant Db major, not minor.
In measure 27, and 29, we see a B-C-E-G - a Cmaj7 with an F also - Cmaj6? Is this a modulation of key?
In measure 31-33, F-A-C; F maj chord rather than Fmin which would be expected in the key of Db major. Any thoughts on whether there is a change in key here?
Measures 38-40 A, D, E, G#, B. Emaj7? Again out of the original key.
I'm going to present this for the next recital; it took me 2 months to learn and 2 months to polish but it's nearly ready. Not 100%, but then again I'm still just an adult beginner . I think I can record a decent take now though. I figure I'll try a few times over the next couple of weeks.
Is anyone interested in a structural / chordal analysis of this piece? I have been meaning to delve more deeply into the structure of the music I'm learning (ala Mortensen) and think this piece is a perfect candidate on many levels (timing, chordal analysis, changes in key, etc).
If so, would you prefer on this thread or begin a new one?
But I was thinking of reprising and compiling this and more info into a complete analysis as a project. An academic project performed on an elective basis.....the horror!
I used to play the 4 against 3 in the Consolation according to the rules of polyrythm: divide each of the triplets into four beats and then you can position each of the four 16th notes mathematically and rythmically correct agains the triplet. See exemple 2 below, see link . Then tap the rhythm with both hands with a metronome and try it on the piano. Then I took some extra lessons from a concert pianist who told me that was not correct in this case. The 4 agains 3 in the Consolation should not be played according to the rules of polyrythm. It should be played as shown in exemple 1. I managed to adopt this “new polyrythm” after some practice with that teacher’s help and got the feel for it. As far as I know, it is not calculable. (But maybe some mathematically gifted person here can?)Yet, the 16ths are spaced rythmically exact in time against the triplets as shown in exemple 1. The last of the four 16th notes is played just before the last note of the triplet.
I always break down polyrhythms mathematically, usually setting 1 beat=1, so an eighth note =0.5 (so you play at 0, 0.5 for two eighth notes), triplets equal 0.333 (so 0, 0.333, 0.667), sixteenths equal to 0.25 (0, 0.25, 0.5, 0.75) so a 4 over three is 0___0.25___0.5____0.75 0_____0.33______0.67
It's not so tricky to learn if you use one of the figures as a kind of reference rhythm, because you can just play the other voice relative to the reference rhythm. So if you take the triplets as the reference, you have to play the second sixteenth note just before the second triplet, the third sixteenth note exactly halfway between the triplets, and the fourth sixteenth note just after the third triplet. To me that's easier than finding a common denominator and counting with the denominator, as I feel that takes up too much attention and doesn't work for fast music. I just practice with the math I've done until it sounds rhythmically even. It gets naturalized pretty quickly except for bigger polyrhythms like 11:4 or 17:8, but outside of modern music the larger polyrhythms largely happen in things like fioriture and runs, where a lot of people play them differently according to the music (faster at first to slower at the end or vice versa, depending on whether the music is waning or waxing in intensity).
Welcome to the forum Dan. This thread was from 5-6 years ago so I did manage to resolve this problem.
I completely agree with what your teacher suggests. It was exactly what my teacher suggested and worked well. I also learnt chopin novelle etude 1 which may be of interest if you want further practice on this 4:3.
. I think I can record a decent take now though. I figure I'll try a few times over the next couple of weeks.