2022 our 25th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Who's Online Now
33 members (Animisha, Cominut, brennbaer, crab89, aphexdisklavier, fullerphoto, admodios, busa, drumour, Foxtrot3, 3 invisible), 1,240 guests, and 263 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 3 of 3 1 2 3
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 17,272
B
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 17,272
Here's another article, by a concert pianist (which I've linked before on another thread):

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2007/apr/20/classicalmusicandopera1


If music be the food of love, play on!
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 6,374
6000 Post Club Member
Online Content
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 6,374
I have collected a bunch of links about the pros and cons of memorizing over the years:

from the New York Times 1999

from the New York Times 2012

from the Telegraph about stage fright

from The Guardian 2007

I must memorize my pieces at university because it has always been done that way. It doesn't matter that only pianists at the university have to memorize - everyone else get to use the music...

Sam


Back to School at 62: How I earned a BM degree in Piano Performance/Piano Pedagogy in my retirement!
ABF Online Recitals
ABF Recital Index
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,780
J
Gold Level
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
Gold Level
6000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,780
I memorize because my pro-musician brother would kill me if I used sheet music in public laugh

But seriously, I play for assisted living/memory care folks and occasional other freebie gigs, and, as others have said, I like to be able to just sit down and play without having to cart around a lot of music (or turn a lot pages, for that matter :\ ) I've also learned to sometimes look up at the audience and nod and smile (I practice this at home laugh ), and sometimes one of my regulars will ask for a particular piece - deColores or Amazing Grace often - and I can do that. And just last week I was playing with a fiddler and we kind of ran out of mutual repertoire and he asked if I could play some things I know to supplement and I played 3 pieces I use in other gigs.

I think I also listen to what I'm playing, or get into the music better when I've got it memorized than when I'm reading. Reading came awfully easy to me 60 years ago, so sight-to-hands is easy - but there was no music. Just notes.

When I first memorized a piece it was a ragtime piece for which the melody was just there, but since I was learning it from a fakebook I had to make up the bass. It took me forever - a year? - but I can tell you I now know that piece like the back of my hand laugh After that memorizing became easier. I use all of the above ideas to do it - I *hear* it, I know the chord progressions, when playing I have a whole phrase in my head, not just the part where I am, and that phrase keeps moving along with the music. I play it in chunks, and I often learn the ending before I learn the middle, knowing from experience how embarrassing it is to blow the ending and thinking that's what I'll be remembered by laugh

But that's for *me* - what gives you satisfaction my be completely different. And the latter is what counts.


Cathy
[Linked Image][Linked Image]
Perhaps "more music" is always the answer, no matter what the question might be! - Qwerty53
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 61
T
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
T
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 61
Sorry if I interrupt the flow of this thread but I'm still curious about the depth of memorization down to the ability of writing the sheet music on paper without additional help. It's quite obvious that muscle memory alone doesn't allow that. Here's a quote from 'Fundamentals of Piano Practice', 2nd Edition by Chuan C. Chang (which can be found online):

"Once you memorize, you are empowered to do many other things that most people would expect only from “gifted musicians”, such as playing the composition in your head, away from the piano, or even writing the entire composition down from memory. If you can play every note in the composition from memory, there is no reason why you can’t write them all down! Such abilities are not for show or bragging rights, but are essential for performing without flubs or memory lapses and come almost as automatic byproducts of these methods, even for us ordinary folks with ordinary memory. Many students can play complete compositions but can’t write them down — such students have only partially memorized the composition in a manner that is inadequate for performances."

Last edited by tlh1; 06/16/17 04:25 AM.

Oliver
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 6,374
6000 Post Club Member
Online Content
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 6,374
I tried writing out a portion of a score from memory that was giving me difficulty. It was a futile exercise. Didn't help me a bit. It was a complicated 8 measures of a Scarlatti sonata. Your results may differ...

Sam


Back to School at 62: How I earned a BM degree in Piano Performance/Piano Pedagogy in my retirement!
ABF Online Recitals
ABF Recital Index
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 17,272
B
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 17,272
Originally Posted by tlh1
Sorry if I interrupt the flow of this thread but I'm still curious about the depth of memorization down to the ability of writing the sheet music on paper without additional help. It's quite obvious that muscle memory alone doesn't allow that. Here's a quote from 'Fundamentals of Piano Practice', 2nd Edition by Chuan C. Chang (which can be found online):

"Once you memorize, you are empowered to do many other things that most people would expect only from “gifted musicians”, such as playing the composition in your head, away from the piano, or even writing the entire composition down from memory. If you can play every note in the composition from memory, there is no reason why you can’t write them all down! Such abilities are not for show or bragging rights, but are essential for performing without flubs or memory lapses and come almost as automatic byproducts of these methods, even for us ordinary folks with ordinary memory. Many students can play complete compositions but can’t write them down — such students have only partially memorized the composition in a manner that is inadequate for performances."

I'd take that with more than a pinch of salt - no, make that a barrelful of salt.

If you have a good ear and a good knowledge of harmony, you can 'recreate' simple pieces in your head and write it down accurately on paper, even if you can't actually play it from memory. In other words, you haven't memorized it, in any sense of the word.

Conversely, you can have memorized - securely (as much as that's possible) - Gaspard de la nuit, yet you can't write any of it down on paper other than the first few bars. That's because the vast majority of your memory you use to play Gaspard is muscle memory. But that's what you need to play a piece from memory that's full of notes and accidentals (and indeterminate harmonies, suspensions, diminished 7ths etc) as well as awkward rhythmic quirks and numerous key- and time-signature changes.

For example, I can write down the whole of Für Elise though I've only seen the score once, over ten years ago, and have never even played it complete in my life (though I did 'perform' it by ear once, in front of an audience, and basically improvised most of the music other than the recurring tune). That's because it's very straightforward harmonically & rhythmically, so I can recreate the score from what I 'hear' in my head - but I can't recreate it fast enough to play it on the piano as it is written, i.e. I can't play it accurately by ear. And I certainly never memorized it.

I'd love to know of any concert pianist (who's played the piece since he/she was a child prodigy, but hasn't got photographic memory) who can write down the complete piano part of, say, Rachmaninov's 3rd concerto from memory........is Mr Chang claiming that no pianist has ever memorized this popular piece adequately? wink


If music be the food of love, play on!
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,048
Z
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Z
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,048
Originally Posted by Tim1028
Are there any good reasons to memorize music?
Memorising music helps to understand it, internalise it and realise it the way you want to play it. It allows you to practise it away from the piano and it allows you to stretch your technique further.

We function better when we use all our tools to help our playing and our memory is one of those tools, it's a natural facility that we have evolved to use.

There's no need to commit everything you play to memory even though you're no longer reading. That can be stressful for some players, liberating to others. We each have our strengths.

If you didn't memorise your repertoire from practice, mostly muscle memory, you wouldn't be able to play it up to tempo. Memorising to the point of being able to play it without the score is something else. Memorising enough to write out the score is something entirely different and won't improve your playing - it's a translation process that isn't used in performance.

I always recommend people commit a new passage to memory every day, play something already in memory every day, read something new every day, learn something new by ear every day and improvise often, either freely or around a theme. These are all steps to better musicianship; they all improve with practise and deteriorate without.

When I work on a new piece I pick a small enough segment that I can play it from memory after a couple of minutes. If I can't do that I've picked too big a section and I reduce it the next day. I don't expect or try to memorise it overnight.

After I've been through the piece in detail, usually a few weeks, I try to memorise each phrase before I practise it. If I have difficulty I keep the music at my desk or on my computer, a good walk away from the piano room, and this forces more effort to memorise and recall it.

I would never play a piece in public that I couldn't play from memory. I don't care how easy or difficult the piece is, I want to believe the message of the music and tell it like it's mine. I can't do that if I don't know it well enough.


Richard
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 61
T
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
T
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 61
Hmm, another thing I can't do but is related to memorization is the skill to learn pieces away from the piano. I would love to memorize a new or newish piece while traveling. I've read several times that famous pianists do this routinely. How would an intermediate player pull this off? Memorize the notes or intervals? ... I couldn't determine the fingering without a piano/keyboard. I also have problems "hearing" the written music w/o playing it.

Edit: ... good point about Rachmaninov's 3rd, bennevis.

Last edited by tlh1; 06/16/17 07:57 AM.

Oliver
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,048
Z
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Z
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,048
Originally Posted by Tim1028
...How would an intermediate player pull this off?
For deliberate memorisation, mental play and audiation start with three notes melodies from a recorder tutor or similar (like Very Easy Guitar Tunes from Usborne Press) along the lines of Au Clair de la Lune or Fais Dodo. Progress to a piano method book in time. A little every day is all you need - don't try to cram it. It needs development in the brain so it takes a tiny effort followed by enough sleep.


Richard
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 17,272
B
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 17,272
Originally Posted by tlh1
Hmm, another thing I can't do but is related to memorization is the skill to learn pieces away from the piano. I would love to memorize a new or newish piece while traveling. I've read several times that famous pianists do this routinely. How would an intermediate player pull this off? Memorize the notes or intervals? ... I couldn't determine the fingering without a piano/keyboard. I also have problems "hearing" the written music w/o playing it.


You can't learn pieces away from the piano unless you can 'hear' the music in your head from reading through the score, and have enough familiarity with the keyboard such that you can 'imagine'/'visualize' your hands 'playing' the music without the keyboard in front of you.

I'm assuming of course that you haven't got photographic memory.


If music be the food of love, play on!
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 10,512
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 10,512
Lots o' stuff here; good subject.

Now, some of us could hardly see the music let alone read it. Even as a nipper, the only time I saw the writing on the school blackboard, or the music on a sheet, was when i just got new glasses.
I didn't like sitting at the front of the class, see. it's more fun at the back. I always managed to dodge the blackboard dusters that came my way from the teacher, though.
Music I had to learn somehow. And even lately, it was a case of peering at the damn thing and kinda remembering what I just saw. Not clever.
Now, i got a lens replacement, things got so much better I need to learn what to do and what not to do with music.
But I still like playing complete short classics from memory. I can do about 4, and they need maintaining.
Playing in a venue demands a lead sheet for prompting. Then I'm happy . . . .


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

"[Linked Image]"
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 6,374
6000 Post Club Member
Online Content
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 6,374
Originally Posted by bennevis

I'd love to know of any concert pianist (who's played the piece since he/she was a child prodigy, but hasn't got photographic memory) who can write down the complete piano part of, say, Rachmaninov's 3rd concerto from memory........is Mr Chang claiming that no pianist has ever memorized this popular piece adequately? wink


I wouldn't put to much confidence in Chang's book. When I looked into it, he was not a pianist, did not play piano, and was just reporting what he had observed and been told by others. I may be wrong, but that's what I remember...

Sam


Back to School at 62: How I earned a BM degree in Piano Performance/Piano Pedagogy in my retirement!
ABF Online Recitals
ABF Recital Index
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 2,430
I
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
I
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 2,430
I don't enjoy music that much when I play using score.

Only memorized music lets you close your eyes and get drawn in it.

Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 61
T
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
T
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 61
I know Chang has his critics but he still raises good points. To stay on the topic of memorization, I believe having a piece memorized can mean very different things: i) being able to write it down, ii) being able to start at many random spots in the piece, iii) only having a few memory posts, iv) being only able to start the different sections, v) only from start to end.

I find (ii) difficult even if I look at the sheet music, partly because I panic, partly because I usually don't know the fingering for random spots without the proper flow towards that spot. Obviously, the chances of getting stuck increase from i/ii) to v) (especially if one plays for other people).

Last edited by tlh1; 06/17/17 05:22 AM.

Oliver
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,479
Gold Subscriber
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
Gold Subscriber
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,479
And yet.....and yet I see all kinds of professional musicians, usually of the classical ilk, where adherence to playing what is written in the score is looked upon as a must, using the scores to play. Members of the orchestra for major (and minor) symphony orchestras. Chamber music players. These people are playing expertly and expressively, yet they have the score in front of them. Solo piano performances from memory haven't always been the norm.

I think it is useful to have some pieces committed to memory, but how many and with how much effort--that can vary. As with most things related to piano, it all depends--what you play, for how long you've been playing, what stage of the learning curve you're at, your personal learning preferences; it all depends.


[Linked Image]
Yamaha C3X
In summer, the song sings itself. --William Carlos Williams

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 17,272
B
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 17,272
It is interesting to note that pianist-composers today - like Stephen Hough - follow the protocol of the 19th century, where they played their own music from the score, to show the audience that they weren't improvising, but playing proper through-composed music........the same way they'd play from the score if they were playing anyone else's contemporary music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FmvkYURUKc

....whereas with 'normal' rep, they play from memory.


If music be the food of love, play on!
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 2,965
G

Platinum Supporter until July 22 2014
2000 Post Club Member
Offline

Platinum Supporter until July 22 2014
2000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 2,965
The more you can do, the better off you are in terms of your playing ability and likely all around musicianship as well.

Reading has a huge role to play and so does just being able to sit down and play from the top of your head.

Most of us are not perfectly well rounded and end up being stronger in some areas than others. This is perfectly fine and we all adjust accordingly and it suits us just fine. Nonetheless, reading and memorizing are both significant contributors towards becoming better, so best to be open to both. But nothing is mission critical. Of course 10's of millions that have managed without memorizing and there are plenty of successful musicians that have never learned to read. Still, the best musicians do both.


Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,272
J
Unobtanium Subscriber
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
Unobtanium Subscriber
6000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,272

I don't try to memorize, and usually play from the paper. But I find that it sort of just happens that eventually I remember stuff and can play without the chart. It helps when I run into a piano somewhere, like in a hotel or restaurant.....


-- J.S.

[Linked Image] [Linked Image]

Knabe Grand # 10927
Yamaha CP33
Kawai FS690
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 36,799
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 36,799
For almost all amateurs I think not memorizing is best for two main reasons:

1. Many amateurs get very anxious about performing in their teacher's recitals for fear of memory lapses. Playing with the music will take away much of this fear for many.

2. In an attempt to avoid memory lapses many spend an inordinate amount of time trying to securely memorize music, often using several techniques. This time could be spend far better in terms of musical education and pleasure by playing with the score.

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,870
W
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
W
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,870
Originally Posted by Sam S
I tried writing out a portion of a score from memory that was giving me difficulty. It was a futile exercise. Didn't help me a bit. It was a complicated 8 measures of a Scarlatti sonata. Your results may differ...

Sam


I also once did that. IMHO it's a useless way of memorizing.

Your brain needs a different structures than a picture of notes on a sheet of paper. What I memorize is mostly 'differential' and procedural. only key points, eg once every 4 measures, I really know the chord. The melody is stored differently again in lets call it 'melody memory'.

Last edited by wouter79; 06/19/17 11:08 AM.

[Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image]
Page 3 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  Bart K, platuser 

Link Copied to Clipboard
What's Hot!!
Piano World Has Been Sold!
--------------------
Forums RULES, Terms of Service & HELP
(updated 06/06/2022)
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
(ad)
(ad)
New Topics - Multiple Forums
How Much to Sell For?
by TexasMom1 - 04/15/24 10:23 PM
Song lyrics have become simpler and more repetitive
by FrankCox - 04/15/24 07:42 PM
New bass strings sound tubby
by Emery Wang - 04/15/24 06:54 PM
Pianodisc PDS-128+ calibration
by Dalem01 - 04/15/24 04:50 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums43
Topics223,384
Posts3,349,179
Members111,631
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010

Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations |

Advertise on Piano World
| Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map


Copyright © VerticalScope Inc. All Rights Reserved.
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community.