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Just asking from curiosity.
How is the key pivot length of the Kawai RM3 Grand II action compared to the key pivot length of the casual low end upright acoustic piano?
And how is the key pivot length of the Kawai Grand Feel\Grand Feel II action compared to the common key pivot length in acoustic grand pianos?
I'm asking more or less, because if I'm not mistaken there is no strict standard for key pivot length.
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AFAIK, there's not really a standard key pivot length. Also, uprights aren't really a fair comparison since the whole action is folded vertically - it's a different mechanism than a grand action.
private piano/voice teacher FT ![[Linked Image]](https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/gallery/42/thumbs/2529.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](https://forum.pianoworld.com//gallery/42/medium/9342.png)
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Acoustic pianos almost always have longer keys than their digital counterparts, because the placement of actual action and the (mechanical) energy required to play it asks for this. I think you need to look into what is now called "hybrid" digital pianos to get longer keys than some upright pianos.
Yamaha P-515
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AFAIK, there's not really a standard key pivot length. Also, uprights aren't really a fair comparison since the whole action is folded vertically - it's a different mechanism than a grand action. But I understand that the pivot length determine how equal the weight of the key from its backwards to its farwards. And that this is a universal rule, for grands, uprights, and digitals, and the upright different mechanism doesn't have any Influence obout this. Am I right? If so, I think the comparison is relevance.
Last edited by hag01; 04/21/17 01:06 PM.
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Hmm here's a grand piano action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGY87KUuz8EHere's an upright action: https://youtu.be/_QIvuCi1yTg?t=5m49sSeems like the grand piano pivot length is longer than the upright. I do believe this does vary depending on the size of the grand piano as well. Perhaps it's a good question for the Piano Forum.
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Last edited by clothearednincompo; 04/21/17 01:25 PM.
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I was fortunate to have played the various digital Kawai pianos alongside grand pianos at a showroom.
In a real world playing experience, I found that the GFII to be the closest in feel to a grand piano (unless you move up to an Avantgrand).
I found that the acoustic grand pianos varied in action feel, depending on its age (some were used but recent, others were old but restored, some brand new) and name (Steinway, Fazioli, Kawai, Yamaha).
When comparing digital vs acoustic, it seems easy to just treat acoustic pianos, even grands, as this monolith - as if the actions are all the same but they vary as widely if not more than digital vs digital.
And the GFII in the Kawai CA/CS series I played didn't vary *more* than the variation between the acoustic grands if that makes sense.
Where the difference lies still is the overall experience as a player. Even blindfolded, it's the way the sound hits you. In a grand or even upright, the way the sound travels to you is different than it does with speakers on a digital (even if they try their best to emulate that experience with where they place the speakers in a digital). That's why having a grand piano action feel, and grand piano sampled sounds (or modeled sounds in the future) will still feel a bit strange on a physically upright digital piano compared to a 7 or 9-ft concert grand where the sound is traveling to you in a very different way.
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Where the difference lies still is the overall experience as a player. Even blindfolded, it's the way the sound hits you. In a grand or even upright, the way the sound travels to you is different than it does with speakers on a digital (even if they try their best to emulate that experience with where they place the speakers in a digital). That's why having a grand piano action feel, and grand piano sampled sounds (or modeled sounds in the future) will still feel a bit strange on a physically upright digital piano compared to a 7 or 9-ft concert grand where the sound is traveling to you in a very different way.
Indeed, this might be the biggest (smallest?) bottleneck in acoustic piano emulation. Some day years from now I dream of some DIY attempt at putting high quality drivers in a digital piano cabinet in the style of some of the high end digital pianos. Unfortunately, I think general sound quality is currently far too heavily sacrificed in even the Roland LX-17 or Kawai CA-97 to favor this more natural presentation. Not sure if its the drivers or the integration or what, haven't looked into it yet. Haven't looked too much into custom or less common digital piano loudspeaker cabinets though. Would be excited if anyone around found better results elsewhere! Also current recording methods are predominately geared for traditional stereo reproduction. I assume this is also true in the quality piano sampling/modeling world (maybe some for headphones). I think specific recording, modeling and mixing techniques would need to be developed for proper piano emulation through a piano cabinet style reproduction. That will probably take a long time, if it ever comes to fruition! Anyways I might chalk up this as one of the areas of piano emulation that is less necessary for someone like myself who simply wants high quality music production, not necessarily feeling like an acoustic piano. But it could definitely be important for someone looking to practice for a real acoustic and/or in a traditional piano setting, for example.
Beethoven, Bach -> Kawai CA-97 -> Garritan CFX Full -> Neumann Klein and Hummel 310s
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Where the difference lies still is the overall experience as a player. Even blindfolded, it's the way the sound hits you. In a grand or even upright, the way the sound travels to you is different than it does with speakers on a digital (even if they try their best to emulate that experience with where they place the speakers in a digital). That's why having a grand piano action feel, and grand piano sampled sounds (or modeled sounds in the future) will still feel a bit strange on a physically upright digital piano compared to a 7 or 9-ft concert grand where the sound is traveling to you in a very different way.
Indeed, this might be the biggest (smallest?) bottleneck in acoustic piano emulation. Some day years from now I dream of some DIY attempt at putting high quality drivers in a digital piano cabinet in the style of some of the high end digital pianos. Unfortunately, I think general sound quality is currently far too heavily sacrificed in even the Roland LX-17 or Kawai CA-97 to favor this more natural presentation. Not sure if its the drivers or the integration or what, haven't looked into it yet. Haven't looked too much into custom or less common digital piano loudspeaker cabinets though. Would be excited if anyone around found better results elsewhere! Also current recording methods are predominately geared for traditional stereo reproduction. I assume this is also true in the quality piano sampling/modeling world (maybe some for headphones). I think specific recording, modeling and mixing techniques would need to be developed for proper piano emulation through a piano cabinet style reproduction. That will probably take a long time, if it ever comes to fruition! Anyways I might chalk up this as one of the areas of piano emulation that is less necessary for someone like myself who simply wants high quality music production, not necessarily feeling like an acoustic piano. But it could definitely be important for someone looking to practice for a real acoustic and/or in a traditional piano setting, for example. That's why I think the Avantgrands do such a great job of getting closer to the experience of an acoustic grand, simply because of the form factor - even if the sound samples are identical to say a slab or console digital. The way the speakers are placed in a digital grand that looks like an acoustic grand better approximates how sound bounces/moves out of that form factor - the direction in which the sound moves out of the piano and into the room itself. But in reality, it's getting to a point where these digital pianos are getting good enough for a serious musician as a rehearsal instrument (and for certain genres like pop or even jazz, for performance) - still a compromise but not to the same degree like years before.
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