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Re: Duane Shinn 52 Week Crash Course [Re: TonyB] #2831663
5 hours ago
5 hours ago
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,318
Pennsylvania
D
dmd Offline
4000 Post Club Member
dmd  Offline
4000 Post Club Member
D

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,318
Pennsylvania
Originally Posted by TonyB
OK. Yes, I am working through the course.



Well, good … I am glad you found it to be a "fit" for you.

Quote
Are you working through the course?


I am not.

It is not a good fit for me.

Quote
You are participating in the course thread and doling out opinion and advice about the course to folks interested in it.


Yes I am. I have the entire course and have experienced a good portion of it.

Do you find something wrong about that ?


Don

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Re: Duane Shinn 52 Week Crash Course [Re: TonyB] #2831667
5 hours ago
5 hours ago
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,369
Twin Cities
T
TonyB Online content OP
1000 Post Club Member
TonyB  Online Content OP
1000 Post Club Member
T

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,369
Twin Cities
I have stated elsewhere in this thread that I feel the Duane Shinn crash course is the closest thing to a "live" teacher of any course that I have personal experience with. Like many self-teaching folks here have shared over the years, I have several of these courses. Each has its merits and its "lacks", but the Duane Shinn course seems to me to be very complete for providing a solid foundation for a lifetime of enjoying playing the piano without having to go through the rigors of a purely classical piano study. It is by no means a shortcut, but instead is intent on laying a decent foundation for those wishing to pursue playing piano outside of a full blown classical course of study.

That said, over the years here, folks have discussed some of Duane Shinn's other, shorter courses, often expressing the feeling that these are too short and don't do a good job of covering the intended material. Being personally familiar with a number of his courses that I personally own and use, I can safely say that the crash course is the centerpiece of Duane's products, and that the other course I own all assume the student has a level of competence equivalent to one having completed the crash course. Skipping that experience, whether obtained from the crash course or elsewhere, will only lead to the kinds of complaints some folks have expressed about the other courses in his product line.

I bought the entire crash course, along with the other large courses such as the one on improvisation, the pro secrets, and the music theory course a number of years ago, with the intention of pursuing these in retirement. I felt that I may be difficult to afford on a fixed income, so I decided to purchase these while I had a pile of disposable income. I now feel that was a wise choice, though I am financially doing just fine in retirement. Other people might move to a location on or near a golf course, the beach, or where ever best suits their desired activities in retirement. I planned on teaching myself to play the piano, and on staying right where I am. Now I am in retirement, and have been for a few years. I bought a Roland V-Grand digital piano new about 6 years ago, and have been enjoying pursuing, as a hobby/avocation, the piano.

At the center of this pursuit has been the courses I purchased from Duane Shinn those years ago. Along with these, I also take time to explore other courses I own, some of which were recommended by Don (dmd). But the center of my piano playing has been, and remains, Duane Shinn.

Duane Shinn's crash course actually takes YEARS to complete, and the process is to be savored, not rushed. That is exactly what I am doing. However, I have found that, for me (not necessarily for others!!!), posting often in forums and talking about what I am doing, seems to dissipate my interest in actually playing, and becomes instead an ongoing conversation ABOUT playing the piano. I tend to work better alone.

What I am sensitive to is not directly Don or any of his posts, which are often quite helpful. Instead, it is the language that people use at times that can be demotivating for those engaged in self-teaching. This isn't usually in Don's posts, and I probably just happened on one that used some of that terminology. However, I have seen, over the years, folks taking lessons from "live" teachers, taking a rather dim view of those of us who have chosen the self-teaching route rather than going with a "live" teacher. It is in those posts, rather than Don's, where we usually see claims that we self-teachers don't stick with anything and therefore make no progress, along with the idea that we therefore are simply seeking a shortcut rather than being willing to do the work.

Though clearly Don wasn't saying any of that, he did use some of that terminology to explain his reasoning regarding the crash course. I just wanted to make sure folks didn't feel like failures if they didn't stick with the crash course, even if that is not what Don intended to imply.

My only reason for addressing SOME of Don's post was to address the idea of the "easy" path or way out. It is especially true in this thread about what is probably one of the longest and must rigorous self-teaching courses, that motivation and support are very important. I get that Don was simply saying that the course isn't for everybody, and I agree with that. However, for those who choose a different path, I applaud you and fully support you in whatever alternative path to your own musical enjoyment you eventually decide upon. That, in short, is my entire point.

I truly don't want to spend a lot of time posting here and going around in circles about this thing. If folks take exception to what I am saying, that is fine. If you agree, that is fine too. If you simply don't care one way or another, even better, because it is best to stay focused on your own path regardless of what others do or don't think about that path.

Hopefully, this post explains my position, addresses the fact that I am actively engaged in the Duane Shinn crash course, and puts an end to this exchange before it gets out of hand.

Thanks,

Tony

Re: Duane Shinn 52 Week Crash Course [Re: dmd] #2831747
29 minutes ago
29 minutes ago
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,369
Twin Cities
T
TonyB Online content OP
1000 Post Club Member
TonyB  Online Content OP
1000 Post Club Member
T

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,369
Twin Cities
Originally Posted by dmd
Originally Posted by TonyB
OK. Yes, I am working through the course.



Well, good … I am glad you found it to be a "fit" for you.

Quote
Are you working through the course?


I am not.

It is not a good fit for me.

Quote
You are participating in the course thread and doling out opinion and advice about the course to folks interested in it.


Yes I am. I have the entire course and have experienced a good portion of it.

Do you find something wrong about that ?


No. Just curious since you asked me after suggesting that maybe I am not working with the course and have some sensitivities as a result. Why not just stop this back and forth now? I really am not interested in spending my time verbally jousting on an internet forum. It is a poor substitute for actually playing piano. I feel that I have explained my position enough now and will leave you to accept or reject that as you wish.

However, I intend to drop in here for time to time, since I am actively involved with the course, and will be for a long time to come, and the fact that I did start this thread. Rather than engaging in this back and forth with you, I will avoid that in the future and engage with the folks here who are involved with the course or are considering doing so, since that was the intention of the thread in the first place.

Tony

Re: Duane Shinn 52 Week Crash Course [Re: TonyB] #2831749
21 minutes ago
21 minutes ago
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 3,214
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
Tyrone Slothrop  Online Content


Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 3,214
Originally Posted by TonyB
I have stated elsewhere in this thread that I feel the Duane Shinn crash course is the closest thing to a "live" teacher of any course that I have personal experience with. Like many self-teaching folks here have shared over the years, I have several of these courses. Each has its merits and its "lacks", but the Duane Shinn course seems to me to be very complete for providing a solid foundation for a lifetime of enjoying playing the piano

I am really impressed by those that stick with the 52 week crash course. It's awesome what they've accomplished. I've seen some of the videos - people making their own arrangements based on what D.S. apparently teaches in his course. I haven't purchased his course and as an outsider, I have two small nits about it. One just came up and I am not sure that it's a nit about the course or D.S. per se, perhaps it's just a nit with your point of view about this course.

Originally Posted by TonyB
It is by no means a shortcut

The first nit is the name. It embodies everything that I think is wrong with late night TV-style marketing. This name of the course is dated and hype-y. Makes me feel like something from the 60's. The webpage is modern, but modern Internet marketing which is a take off from late night product shows. It screams "5-day diet," "12 weeks to a Charles Atlas physique," etc. That something isn't worth starting unless one can accomplish it fast. Why should piano be any different? How many would buy a "D.S. 208 week crash course?" The worst thing for me is how misleading the title really is. There have been a few that have finished this course, however I have not seen anyone that has finished it in 52 weeks. I've asked this almost rhetorical question already on this thread before: Could D.S. himself finish his own course in 52 weeks if he didn't already play the piano?

Originally Posted by TonyB
without having to go through the rigors of a purely classical piano study ... but instead is intent on laying a decent foundation for those wishing to pursue playing piano outside of a full blown classical course of study.

My second nit, as I said, is not so much with the course perhaps as it is with what you said about it. But what you said about it also reflects the D.S. literature I've seen. Yes, I looked at the course myself when I was just starting and was turned off by nit#1 above. But the other thing I was almost taken in by was that the D.S. course is a general course of piano study, only done in a self-study format.

Well that, not really it, is it? D.S. teaches a certain style/school of piano playing and it is no more a general piano course than a course in pop/rock/jazz/gospel vocals is a course in general singing, is it? So I think your line here presents a false dichotomy: the D.S. approach vs. "full blown" classical course of study with rigors.

By using the phrase "full blown," it makes it seem as if the D.S. course is an alternative to traditional piano teachers teaching classical piano, when actually, the D.S. course is an alternative to classical piano altogether, whether "full blown" or not. Because a classical piano course in a self-study format such as PCA is also an alternative to a "full blown" classical course of study, and yet one would still be learning classical piano in that case, in a non-fullblown way.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting something different from classical piano, but it really is not the case that D.S. is on one side of the two-pan balance and piano teachers are on the other side. One can learn classical piano self-study, as mentioned above. One could also learn the non-classical piano D.S. teaches with teachers. There are a lot of alternatives to "full blown" and other alternatives to "classical course of study."

Tying in with my first point, the idea that one is not engaging in a "full blown" course of study is also misleading because the course is not typically completed in 52 weeks. I think the few that complete it (because it's very clear to me that of those that buy the course, something much less than 25% actually complete it, and the real number might be much much much less than 25%), they appear to take closer to 3 years. But how is that different from a classical course of study? How is there no "rigors?" PCA also takes 3 years to complete, only PCA doesn't try to bill itself as a 52-week course.

There is no shortcut here even if D.S. himself tries to make it seem like his 52-week course is a short-cut. If D.S. renamed his course to the 208 week course, it would more accurately express that "there is no free lunch." Learning piano, whether classical, jazz, blues, gospel, pop, rock, etc. as a fine motor-control activity just takes time. There is no "rigorous" vs. "non-rigorous" if you want to learn to play well. There is only the need to do and practice over a period of time.

Again, I want to say that I'm in awe of those, like David B, who have made it so far in this course. Your results prove the method works! Keep it up! Keep posting your videos David B! But it seems obvious to me that those who have gone far in the course have mentally moved pass the "52 week" slogan, and treat piano as something which takes effort to do well and are taking what time it takes to learn it and not something one can blow though in a 52-week flash and end up with Ray Charles skillz. So big thumb thumb to you few and proud! grin


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
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