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Kawai CA-98 and CA-78 sound difference? #2772207
10/13/18 05:22 PM
10/13/18 05:22 PM
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Lepredom Offline OP
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Hi.
I want to buy a new DP to replace my MP11. Based on my overall satisfaction with Kawai and GrandFeel I've narrowed down the scope to CA-98 and CA-78.
However I can't decide if the 600€ bump from 78 to 98 is worth it. As usual, Yamaha holds a monopoly at local music stores and Kawai is nowhere to be seen, so I can't simply go and compare them side by side. What's worse, even if a store would order them for me, I fear the comparison in the shop would tell me nearly nothing about how they will sound in my room slapped against the wall.
So how much of a difference are we talking about? Is it just slightly noticable or a different league? Is there difference in clarity or volume? In frequency response evenness? In sound sweet spots / propagation?
And most importantly: Is it worth it?
There seems to be exactly 0 (zero) information about the sound difference between the 98 and 78, so I appreciate all opinions.
Thanks,
Martin

Last edited by Lepredom; 10/13/18 05:24 PM.
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Re: Kawai CA-98 and CA-78 sound difference? [Re: Lepredom] #2772211
10/13/18 05:44 PM
10/13/18 05:44 PM
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JoBert Offline
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For what it's worth, and highly anecdotal of course: Back then, I tested the CA67 for about an hour in a shop that didn't have the CA97. At the end I was convinced that I wanted either it or the CA97. The next day I went to a different shop that had both. It took me less than 5 minutes with the CA97 before I knew that I wanted it and not the CA67. I think I didn't even test the CA67 anymore in that second shop (but I went back to the first shop, a small local shop where I had tested the CA67 intensively, and ordered the CA97 there).
As said, highly anecdotal and I'm sure there are some for whom it was exactly the opposite. I can't describe the quality of the sound difference, but for me it was worth the higher price (but that of course also depends on how much the higher price hurts your bank account). And I was planning to play mainly without headphones. For anyone who plays mainly with headphones, the CA78 (in my time the CA67) is the better choice.

Re: Is Kawai CA-98 and CA-78 sound difference worth the money? [Re: Lepredom] #2772213
10/13/18 05:47 PM
10/13/18 05:47 PM
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arc7urus Offline
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The only difference between the 78 and 98 is the speaker system. If you plan on using the DP mainly with headphones, then the CA98 makes no sense. Otherwise, the CA98 soundboard will provide a degree of haptic feedback because of the cabinet and keyboard vibrations, something that the CA78 will not be able to do. When I tried both at a store, the CA98 sounded more “natural” and had a wider stage (you don’t feel the sound is coming from the speakers but from the whole cabinet). However, I never placed a 78 on the same location where I have my CA98. Maybe they would sound the same. I do not know. So, what you are getting for sure is the haptic feedback. I cannot judge objectively the differences In sound quality, and I doubt anyone will, unless the two models are tested side by side in a proper environment. Are the differences worth 600 EUR? Definitely not. But if that amount of money is not a critical decision point for you, then you risk nothing getting what should be, in theory at least, a superior speaker system. Cheers!

Re: Kawai CA-98 and CA-78 sound difference? [Re: Lepredom] #2772217
10/13/18 06:01 PM
10/13/18 06:01 PM
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Carey Offline
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It is my understanding that the two models are identical with the exception of the sound systems.

Per the Kawai website...….

"As the flagship model, the CA98 features a considerably improved speaker system that pairs premium Onkyo driver units with Kawai’s newly developed TwinDrive soundboard. This unique acoustic projection technology harnesses the latest Onkyo transducer components to channel sound energy onto a real wooden soundboard, resulting in a richer, more natural piano tone that immerses the performer."

CA98 Sound System - TwinDrive Soundboard System, 4 x 8cm Top Speaker + 2 x 2cm Tweeter; ONKYO Amplifier, ONKYO SpectraModule™ Headphone Amplifier, ONKYO Signal Processing
Amplifier - 3 x 45W
Power Consumption - 55W

Compared to the CA78

CA78 Sound System - 2 x 13cm with enclosure + 2 x 8x12cm Top Speaker and 2 x 5cm Tweeter; ONKYO Amplifier, ONKYO SpectraModule™ Headphone Amplifier, ONKYO Signal Processing
Amplifier - 2 x 50W
Power Consumption - 50W

Quite honestly, if you will be listening primarily through the headphones, the difference in sound would probably be negligible. Without headphones, the sound of the CA98 should be richer and more satisfying. When I bought my CA65 five years ago I also was able to play a CA95 in the dealer's showroom. Since I planned to use the digital primarily for practice with headphones, the extra boost in sound with the CA95 wasn't worth the extra cost - to me personally - nor did it blow my socks off at the time. However, the sound system has improved since then.


Mason and Hamlin BB - 91640
Kawai K-500 Upright
Kawai CA-65 Digital
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo
Re: Kawai CA-98 and CA-78 sound difference? [Re: Lepredom] #2772313
10/14/18 08:07 AM
10/14/18 08:07 AM
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MrKaramba Offline
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I was playing many times CA97 and 67 in a shops standing by the side. So yes, CA98 will do sound better. Mainly it has more depth, bass, better treble, you feel that you are not hearing only speakers, but the whole piano is vibrating, like a real one.

Is it big difference?
It all depends what you want and where you are coming from. For me it was clear that higher modern is more realistic, but I was playing whole life on acoustics only. The difference is not day and night, it's slight in general, but clearly I mproves in those few important elements.

If you are coming from MP11 I do not know whether it will be worth for you to pay extra 30% for soundboard system. You just have to play both and decide. There is improvement, of course, but it may be enough for you to justify the cost. If you want only best than get a higher model.

For non trainer ear they will sound very similar.

Re: Kawai CA-98 and CA-78 sound difference? [Re: Lepredom] #2772391
10/14/18 01:09 PM
10/14/18 01:09 PM
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This is a bit of a stupid reply, since I've never even seen either the CA98 or 78, (I currently own the CA65) but perhaps there are some questions you might ask yourself.

1) Do you want to use a CA piano just for practice, when you would only play for an audience on an acoustic piano? If so, why spend the extra money for the 98 when both units have the same action?

2) Are you going to use primarily headphones, will you be playing mostly live for yourself or an audience, or do you plan on balancing both? If you're only thinking of headphones, why pay the difference, since both would sound the same? Likewise, if you plan on playing live only for an audience's listening pleasure, why buy the 98, since both would sound exactly the same (at least according to expert reviews on YouTube, which you may perhaps be able to peruse)? Or do you want to play live primarily for your own musical pleasure? If so, enjoying the more enveloping sound and vibration that the 98 supplies might be the best purchase option.

3) How long do you plan on keeping a new CA piano, and how will that relate to the above questions? For what my opinion is worth, it seems to me that if you're going to keep it for five years or longer, playing live primarily for your own pleasure, the CA98 might just be the ticket. On a five-year basis that would encompass an extra cost over the 78 of 120 Euros per year. Honestly, that's not THAT much of a price increase in a year's time for a more enveloping sound (not to mention that the 98 also has a few more accompaniment voices). If you only plan on keeping it for a few years, though, even if it's just for yourself I personally couldn't justify the investment paid out for a 98. Just my opinion.

In closing, I applaud you for asking opinions in this forum; the time to get nervous about flying isn't when you're 30,000 feet in the air. Others here will give you much better advice on a piano purchase than I can, but it may not hurt to ask yourself the above questions. Hope this helps in some way.

Re: Kawai CA-98 and CA-78 sound difference? [Re: Lepredom] #2772395
10/14/18 01:18 PM
10/14/18 01:18 PM
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arc7urus Offline
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According to Kawai, the CA 78, 98 and NV10 share exactly the same sound engine and headphones amplifier. The only difference between the CA 78 and 98 is the speaker system and speaker amplifier. So, all these models should sound the same when used with headphones.

Re: Kawai CA-98 and CA-78 sound difference? [Re: Lepredom] #2772410
10/14/18 02:14 PM
10/14/18 02:14 PM
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Schuberto Offline
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I own CA-97. I have recently updated my set-up with speakers/monitors Presonus Eris 3.5 (pair for 120 USD). I have to say that the sound improves significantly. The soundboard is now rather bad for the sound (espcially at higher volumes).
I would say that CA-78+monitors>>CA-98(+monitors?)

Re: Kawai CA-98 and CA-78 sound difference? [Re: Schuberto] #2772425
10/14/18 02:48 PM
10/14/18 02:48 PM
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arc7urus Offline
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Originally Posted by Schuberto
I own CA-97. I have recently updated my set-up with speakers/monitors Presonus Eris 3.5 (pair for 120 USD). I have to say that the sound improves significantly. The soundboard is now rather bad for the sound (espcially at higher volumes).
I would say that CA-78+monitors>>CA-98(+monitors?)


Why do you say the soundboard is bad for the sound? I have a CA98 and I have no issues at high volumes - there is a lot of cabinet vibration at high volumes, but that is as expected. The soundboard produces is able to produce a strong bass without distortion, especially if you use to play other sounds or VST instruments than the pianos.

Unfortunately CAx8 + monitors is not an option anymore :-( It is either CAx8 internal speakers or monitors, but not both. In the CAx7 and other models there is a volume control for the line-out and another for the internal speakers. But Kawai decided to remove that feature from the new CAx8 and NV10. This means that line-out volume cannot be set independently and is now controlled by the same control that sets the volume of the internal speakers. The practical result is that it is not possible to use the internal speakers and external monitors at the same time, which is a major letdown and an unnecessary limitation.

Re: Kawai CA-98 and CA-78 sound difference? [Re: arc7urus] #2772428
10/14/18 02:59 PM
10/14/18 02:59 PM
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Schuberto Offline
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Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by Schuberto
I own CA-97. I have recently updated my set-up with speakers/monitors Presonus Eris 3.5 (pair for 120 USD). I have to say that the sound improves significantly. The soundboard is now rather bad for the sound (espcially at higher volumes).
I would say that CA-78+monitors>>CA-98(+monitors?)


Why do you say the soundboard is bad for the sound? I have a CA98 and I have no issues at high volumes - there is a lot of cabinet vibration at high volumes, but that is as expected. The soundboard produces is able to produce a strong bass without distortion, especially if you use to play other sounds or VST instruments than the pianos.

Unfortunately CAx8 + monitors is not an option anymore :-( It is either CAx8 internal speakers or monitors, but not both. In the CAx7 and other models there is a volume control for the line-out and another for the internal speakers. But Kawai decided to remove that feature from the new CAx8 and NV10. This means that line-out volume cannot be set independently and is now controlled by the same control that sets the volume of the internal speakers. The practical result is that it is not possible to use the internal speakers and external monitors at the same time, which is a major letdown and an unnecessary limitation.

My soundboard produces (at higher volumes) distorsions and "boomy" sound. It sounds now better and "cleaner" only using the monitors.
By using an audio interface with 2 outputs you can still operate internal speakers and monitors together.

Last edited by Schuberto; 10/14/18 03:00 PM.
Re: Kawai CA-98 and CA-78 sound difference? [Re: Schuberto] #2772441
10/14/18 04:16 PM
10/14/18 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Schuberto
By using an audio interface with 2 outputs you can still operate internal speakers and monitors together.


Hi! The issue is not operating the internal speakers together with external monitors. The issue is that (1) the line out level is controlled by the master volume that also controls the internal speakers and (2) the line out signal is only usable with the volume near maximum. That means that on the CAx8 and NV10 one needs to have the internal speakers near maximum volume in order to use the line out signal on external monitors. In other words, is not usable. How would an audio interface solve that?

This shortcoming does not exist on the CAx7 and on other DPs with line out, which either have a separate volume control for the line out or use a fixed line out level.

Re: Kawai CA-98 and CA-78 sound difference? [Re: arc7urus] #2772445
10/14/18 04:48 PM
10/14/18 04:48 PM
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Schuberto Offline
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Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by Schuberto
By using an audio interface with 2 outputs you can still operate internal speakers and monitors together.


Hi! The issue is not operating the internal speakers together with external monitors. The issue is that (1) the line out level is controlled by the master volume that also controls the internal speakers and (2) the line out signal is only usable with the volume near maximum. That means that on the CAx8 and NV10 one needs to have the internal speakers near maximum volume in order to use the line out signal on external monitors. In other words, is not usable. How would an audio interface solve that?

This shortcoming does not exist on the CAx7 and on other DPs with line out, which either have a separate volume control for the line out or use a fixed line out level.


With the audio interface you could regulate amplification for internal sound and monitors independently from each other. The signal for the monitors would be taken from the interface directly, and not from the DP.

Re: Kawai CA-98 and CA-78 sound difference? [Re: Schuberto] #2772455
10/14/18 05:25 PM
10/14/18 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Schuberto
With the audio interface you could regulate amplification for internal sound and monitors independently from each other. The signal for the monitors would be taken from the interface directly, and not from the DP.

You are suggesting to connect the line out of the DP to the audio interface, and from there to the monitors. If this is the case, then I do not understand how that would address the problem. The line out level is unusable (i.e. near zero) with the master volume on the DP below ca. 80%. When the master volume is set at 80-90%, the line signal can indeed be amplified if I use an external amplifier and crank up the volume to levels I never use. The line out starts working as expected when the master volume gets close to 100%. I have tested this with monitors and with two speaker amplifiers, all with the same results.

So, the only way I can get a usable line out signal is with the DP master volume close to the maximum, which means that the internal speakers would also be playing at near maximum volume. How would an audio interface help in this case? Am I missing something?

Re: Kawai CA-98 and CA-78 sound difference? [Re: arc7urus] #2772457
10/14/18 05:36 PM
10/14/18 05:36 PM
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Schuberto Offline
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Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by Schuberto
With the audio interface you could regulate amplification for internal sound and monitors independently from each other. The signal for the monitors would be taken from the interface directly, and not from the DP.

You are suggesting to connect the line out of the DP to the audio interface, and from there to the monitors. If this is the case, then I do not understand how that would address the problem. The line out level is unusable (i.e. near zero) with the master volume on the DP below ca. 80%. When the master volume is set at 80-90%, the line signal can indeed be amplified if I use an external amplifier and crank up the volume to levels I never use. The line out starts working as expected when the master volume gets close to 100%. I have tested this with monitors and with two speaker amplifiers, all with the same results.

So, the only way I can get a usable line out signal is with the DP master volume close to the maximum, which means that the internal speakers would also be playing at near maximum volume. How would an audio interface help in this case? Am I missing something?


Ok, I am using VST, meaning getting the piano sound via USB midi from a tablet computer into the audio interface, and from interface output with amplification A to the monitors and amplification B to internal CA speakers (line-in).

Last edited by Schuberto; 10/14/18 05:36 PM.
Re: Kawai CA-98 and CA-78 sound difference? [Re: Lepredom] #2772595
10/15/18 03:53 AM
10/15/18 03:53 AM
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Doug M. Offline
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Originally Posted by Lepredom
Hi.
I want to buy a new DP to replace my MP11. Based on my overall satisfaction with Kawai and GrandFeel I've narrowed down the scope to CA-98 and CA-78.
However I can't decide if the 600€ bump from 78 to 98 is worth it. As usual, Yamaha holds a monopoly at local music stores and Kawai is nowhere to be seen, so I can't simply go and compare them side by side. What's worse, even if a store would order them for me, I fear the comparison in the shop would tell me nearly nothing about how they will sound in my room slapped against the wall.
So how much of a difference are we talking about? Is it just slightly noticable or a different league? Is there difference in clarity or volume? In frequency response evenness? In sound sweet spots / propagation?
And most importantly: Is it worth it?
There seems to be exactly 0 (zero) information about the sound difference between the 98 and 78, so I appreciate all opinions.
Thanks,
Martin


Hi Martin,

I haven't tried either model; however, the earlier CA97, CA67 and the top non-hybrid (CS11) I have compared. The cabinet of the CS11 produces a better sound than the CA97.
Maybe try the CS11 too. Don't know if Kawai are going to replace the CS11/CS8 any time soon, but suspect the CS12 would be better sounding than the CA98 due to the cabinet being bigger and therefore more resonant.

Kind regards,

Doug.


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: Kawai CA-98 and CA-78 sound difference? [Re: Schuberto] #2772635
10/15/18 07:28 AM
10/15/18 07:28 AM
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arc7urus Offline
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Originally Posted by Schuberto
Ok, I am using VST, meaning getting the piano sound via USB midi from a tablet computer into the audio interface, and from interface output with amplification A to the monitors and amplification B to internal CA speakers (line-in).


Yes, that does work but it is a different use case. I would like to use external speakers and the internal speakers at the same time with the internal sounds. I find the acoustic pianos on the new Kawai models to be very good, and they would probably even sound better if I could use external speakers to support the internal speakers, but I cannot do that because of the line-out limitation on the new CA/NV models and that did not exist on the previous CA models.

I am also not happy with the results that I get when I connect an acoustic piano VST to the DP via line-in and use the internal speakers to reproduce the sound. The internal speakers of the CA98 sound excellent with synth-like sounds fed via line-in, but, for some reason, not that good with VST acoustic piano sounds. Maybe tweaking the sound output of the piano VST would help, but I have not spent time doing that. So, I only use headphones when I use a piano VST.

Re: Kawai CA-98 and CA-78 sound difference? [Re: Schuberto] #2773362
10/17/18 02:26 PM
10/17/18 02:26 PM
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Lepredom Offline OP
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Thanks everyone! After reading your comments I'm more inclined to go with the CA98, but I still need to think about it a little bit smile
And yes, I've sold the mp11 because I want to play primarily without headphones (even when practicing).
Originally Posted by Schuberto
I own CA-97. I have recently updated my set-up with speakers/monitors Presonus Eris 3.5 (pair for 120 USD). I have to say that the sound improves significantly. The soundboard is now rather bad for the sound (espcially at higher volumes).
I would say that CA-78+monitors>>CA-98(+monitors?)

Well I actually own a pair of Presonus Eris 4.5. But I would not want to play the piano through them. First there's the problem of correct positioning, and second, they suffer from quite strong thermal hiss so I tend to leave them turned off when not playing music. I'm surprised of you feel this way. I've always expected a piano worth 17 times more would have a better sound than a pair of budget monitors?


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