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Re: Gov. regulations (pending) affecting pianos with ivory... [Re: Rickster] #2511580
02/17/16 02:32 AM
02/17/16 02:32 AM
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This thread was last updated over a month ago.

So, as someone who resides in California and hopes to move to Idaho in the next few years, does this mean I'll have to leave my 1948 piano with ivory keys behind? It can't cross into Oregon and then Idaho, unless I replace the ivory with plastic?

Some states are requiring the complete removal of piano ivory? If you own one in New Jersey, for example, you must replace the ivory, regardless of the age of the piano?

You can buy antique piano ivory on eBay. I've done my best to read everything, but maybe I've overlooked certain details. What exactly has been decided specific to the private ownership of these pianos?

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Re: Gov. regulations (pending) affecting pianos with ivory... [Re: Rickster] #2511626
02/17/16 06:47 AM
02/17/16 06:47 AM
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Posts: 631
Columbus, GA
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S. Phillips Online content
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As of this moment we are still waiting on the US Fish and Wildlife Service to adopt the rule regarding ivory. Everything is sort of in limbo right now. However no state law is requiring that you remove ivory from a piano you already own unless you are trying to sell or trade it. The issue is also not crossing state lines just to move it from one residence to another. The issue is selling it across state lines. If you retain ownership of the piano there should be no issue.

If you live in New Jersey you cannot sell it and other states have enacted similar laws but with some exceptions. But again this is regarding sales not personal ownership. The US regulation that is still being considered has an exception for musical instruments that allows anything under 200 grams of ivory that is part of another item (not solely ivory) to be sold. However this is the regulation that we are waiting on for adoption.

I agree that this is complicated but we all just have to sit tight and see the actual language of the adopted rule to be able to apply the restrictions to any activity.



Sally Phillips
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Re: Gov. regulations (pending) affecting pianos with ivory... [Re: Rickster] #2511638
02/17/16 07:58 AM
02/17/16 07:58 AM
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Thank you for continuing to update this Sally.

I think this clause covers pianos;

"We have chosen 200 grams as the weight limit because we understand that this is the approximate maximum weight of the ivory veneer on a piano with a full set of ivory keys and that this quantity would also cover most other musical instruments with ivory trim or appointments."


BTW, I find it kinda ODD that the US is considering ANYTHING in metric units of measure laugh

Re: Gov. regulations (pending) affecting pianos with ivory... [Re: Rickster] #2511710
02/17/16 11:46 AM
02/17/16 11:46 AM
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Seattle, WA USA
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Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
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I think grams have been used for a long time in US, State and Local Government laws. I remember being the only person in the courtroom who knew how many grams were in an ounce back in the early 1970's.


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Re: Gov. regulations (pending) affecting pianos with ivory... [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT] #2511736
02/17/16 12:54 PM
02/17/16 12:54 PM
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Tennessee
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Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
I think grams have been used for a long time in US, State and Local Government laws. I remember being the only person in the courtroom who knew how many grams were in an ounce back in the early 1970's.


Greetings,
I believe that grams are the official measurement in the U.S. in the we define the ounce by how many grams. And most of us that were familiar with "lids" in the '60's and 70's knew exactly how many grams were in an ounce, for some reason


Re: Gov. regulations (pending) affecting pianos with ivory... [Re: Rickster] #2511779
02/17/16 02:27 PM
02/17/16 02:27 PM
Joined: May 2008
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SE USA
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A crazy thought I know won't work . . .

Would it be THAT terrible to replace on key or two in an otherwise perfect set of ivories with a synthetic substitute (similar to caps, crowns, and replaced teeth)? Especially for very low or high keys (although I would speculate most damage is in the middle). Have a way to color match, as for teeth (which, of course, never do).

A gold key, like a gold tooth? 😁



WhoDwaldi
Howard (by Kawai) 5' 10"
Re: Gov. regulations (pending) affecting pianos with ivory... [Re: Rickster] #2511836
02/17/16 04:40 PM
02/17/16 04:40 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 631
Columbus, GA
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S. Phillips Online content
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Columbus, GA
For an imperfect set of ivories there are synthetic materials that can be used to patch. The problem we will have with the proposed rule is that repairs using real ivory will not be allowed if it is adopted as written.


Sally Phillips
Owner/ Technician
Piano Perfect, LLC
Steinway & Sons Pianos
Columbus, GA
New Steinway, Boston and Essex pianos
www.steinwaypiano.com
Acoustic Piano Technical Consultant - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
http://www.pianobuyer.com/current-issue/07a-should-i-have-my-piano-rebuilt.html
Re: Gov. regulations (pending) affecting pianos with ivory... [Re: Rickster] #2516693
03/02/16 02:05 PM
03/02/16 02:05 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
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Columbus, GA
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S. Phillips Online content
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Columbus, GA
Connecticut is trying to pass a law to make POSSESSION of ivory a crime.

https://www.cga.ct.gov/2016/TOB/s/2016SB-00227-R00-SB.htm

This law would mean that no sales of ivory keyed pianos would be allowed AND if you move into the state with a piano with ivory you could be in violation of this law. Enforcement includes a stiff $10,000 fine and 2 years jail time.

In the past these laws only prohibit import, export and sales. This one includes possession. If you already live in the state and own an ivory piano, you will have to be able to prove when you acquired it and that acquisition date predates this law. You will also be required to get a certificate for the piano to be able to keep it and will not be allowed to sell it unless the ivory is removed.


Sally Phillips
Owner/ Technician
Piano Perfect, LLC
Steinway & Sons Pianos
Columbus, GA
New Steinway, Boston and Essex pianos
www.steinwaypiano.com
Acoustic Piano Technical Consultant - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
http://www.pianobuyer.com/current-issue/07a-should-i-have-my-piano-rebuilt.html
Re: Gov. regulations (pending) affecting pianos with ivory... [Re: S. Phillips] #2516705
03/02/16 02:20 PM
03/02/16 02:20 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,721
Atlanta, GA
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Originally Posted by S. Phillips
Connecticut is trying to pass a law to make POSSESSION of ivory a crime.
That is terrifyingly stupid. The only justice would be if all of the state legislators & elected judges homes were raided, instruments seized, owners jailed the day after it passes. Let their lawyers sort it out in the coming months.


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Re: Gov. regulations (pending) affecting pianos with ivory... [Re: Rickster] #2516840
03/02/16 08:43 PM
03/02/16 08:43 PM
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It turns out I don't have ivory keys, but someday I'm sure I will when I rescue an antique upright on its way to the landfill.

While I respect the motivation behind some of these new laws, it's asinine to take it to this extreme.

It sounds more like bandwagon showmanship and Political Correctness Extremis Disorder than a sincere desire to play a meaningful role in halting the global ivory trade.


Re: Gov. regulations (pending) affecting pianos with ivory... [Re: Rickster] #2516851
03/02/16 09:19 PM
03/02/16 09:19 PM
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London
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I am glad we don't have this sort of idiocy in the UK.

Re: Gov. regulations (pending) affecting pianos with ivory... [Re: Rickster] #2516956
03/03/16 04:28 AM
03/03/16 04:28 AM
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France
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France
You just wait David, I wouldn't mind betting that there is a nasty little careerist in Brussels or Strasbourg (or even in Westminster) with a weather eye on these developments. If one day you decide to sell your square and get a proper piano you may find yourself faced with the prospect of a stretch in the Scrubs.


Re: Gov. regulations (pending) affecting pianos with ivory... [Re: Rickster] #2517026
03/03/16 09:37 AM
03/03/16 09:37 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 12,308
Georgia, USA
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Well, I have two pianos with the real, one-piece ivory key-tops. I do not plan to sell the pianos any time soon, or ever. I do have the bill-of-sale, with names, dates, and contact information of the original sellers, should I ever need it.

My conscience does not bother me because my pianos have real ivory key-tops, which I'm 99.9% sure were obtained legally.

I'm not sure where this issues will lead, or if there will be any fairness to owners of vintage musical instrument owners, but as with all government regulations, there is vagueness and ambiguity that is open to interpretation by whoever.

Rick


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