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New Pianoteq Piano #1961473
09/20/12 09:31 AM
09/20/12 09:31 AM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 142
Canada (Ottawa, ON)
Keegan Offline OP
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Keegan  Offline OP
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Canada (Ottawa, ON)
Bluthner Model 1 Grand Piano. Still sounds like Pianoteq, but a step in the right direction in my opinion! Great demos laugh

http://www.pianoteq.com/bluethner


Kawai CA-65, AKG K702, M-Audio Fast Track Pro
Pianoteq, VI Labs Ravenscroft
Macbook Pro 15-inch 2010
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Re: New Pianoteq Piano [Re: Keegan] #1961753
09/20/12 07:11 PM
09/20/12 07:11 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,019
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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Hamamatsu, Japan
Wow, it sounds terrific, thanks for the heads-up!

James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: New Pianoteq Piano [Re: Keegan] #1961769
09/20/12 07:55 PM
09/20/12 07:55 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,237
Wales
V
voxpops Offline
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Wales
Gosh, they just keep getting better and better! I wonder how long it will be before a hardware manufacturer licenses their product...


"you don't need to have been a rabbit in order to become a veterinarian"

mabraman, 2015
Re: New Pianoteq Piano [Re: Keegan] #1961776
09/20/12 08:19 PM
09/20/12 08:19 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,163
Sydney, Australia
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sullivang Offline
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Sydney, Australia
Originally Posted by Keegan
Bluthner Model 1 Grand Piano. Still sounds like Pianoteq.....


+1. Sorry to be a wet blanket, but after hearing the demos, I am in no way eager to try it out, I'm afraid.

Greg.

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Re: New Pianoteq Piano [Re: Keegan] #1961780
09/20/12 08:28 PM
09/20/12 08:28 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 22
Shrewsbury, MA
K
kmf123kmf Offline
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Shrewsbury, MA
I like this better than the D4, but it still doesn't sound "right". It's a very encouraging release however and shows great potential.

Re: New Pianoteq Piano [Re: Keegan] #1961790
09/20/12 08:41 PM
09/20/12 08:41 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 8,193
Raleigh, North Carolina
MacMacMac Offline
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Raleigh, North Carolina
Great potential?
That's what they said about v2.
That's what they said about v3.
That's what they now say about v4.
Apparently "great potential" means "disappointment"?

Re: New Pianoteq Piano [Re: MacMacMac] #1961798
09/20/12 08:59 PM
09/20/12 08:59 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 22
Shrewsbury, MA
K
kmf123kmf Offline
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K

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 22
Shrewsbury, MA
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Great potential?
That's what they said about v2.
That's what they said about v3.
That's what they now say about v4.
Apparently "great potential" means "disappointment"?


Haha. Yeah. Well when you put that way...

But seriously, it seems almost impossible that they won't get it right eventually. Theoretically the use of modelling should produce perfect results, but that is dependent on both a perfect model and perfect execution. They clearly have neither at this point, and yes, considering how they pitch it to you, that is somewhat of a disappointment.

Re: New Pianoteq Piano [Re: MacMacMac] #1961834
09/20/12 10:34 PM
09/20/12 10:34 PM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 142
Canada (Ottawa, ON)
Keegan Offline OP
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Keegan  Offline OP
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Canada (Ottawa, ON)
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Great potential?
That's what they said about v2.
That's what they said about v3.
That's what they now say about v4.
Apparently "great potential" means "disappointment"?


This is true, and as a fan/user myself I am usually slightly disappointed with the marginal at best improvements, but progress is progress; even if it will take them years to perfect (and if that never happens, well then at least the journey brought me some enjoyment and hope along the way :D). I think the demos sound better than D4, which I was particularly disappointed with. I will be buying the Bluthner to try in the next few days...it's not like it costs a fortune.

Last edited by Keegan; 09/20/12 10:36 PM.

Kawai CA-65, AKG K702, M-Audio Fast Track Pro
Pianoteq, VI Labs Ravenscroft
Macbook Pro 15-inch 2010
Re: New Pianoteq Piano [Re: Keegan] #1961846
09/20/12 11:11 PM
09/20/12 11:11 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 592
Mt View, CA
X
xorbe Offline
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xorbe  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 592
Mt View, CA
I really like the idea of a synthesized piano sound (as an engineer) but listening to the sample demos, it indeed sounds very obviously synthetic! Somehow it lacks dynamics or edge or something, like it's compressed.

Re: New Pianoteq Piano [Re: Keegan] #1961848
09/20/12 11:12 PM
09/20/12 11:12 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member
dewster  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
When you create a sampled piano there is no issue convincing people you actually put a microphone on the real thing and recorded it. You might blow the recording or especially playback in any number of ways, but the basic tone is generally there.

Modelers have a really tough row to hoe because everyone knows it's fake up-front and so some will never be convinced if only on unconscious principle. It doesn't help that the improvements to realism are perhaps too incremental, and that they tend to go long in the over-promising department. These guys really need to stay away from the cool-aid.

Re: New Pianoteq Piano [Re: dewster] #1961853
09/20/12 11:28 PM
09/20/12 11:28 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,494
P
pv88 Offline
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,494
Originally Posted by dewster
When you create a sampled piano there is no issue convincing people you actually put a microphone on the real thing and recorded it. You might blow the recording or especially playback in any number of ways, but the basic tone is generally there.

Modelers have a really tough row to hoe because everyone knows it's fake up-front and so some will never be convinced if only on unconscious principle. It doesn't help that the improvements to realism are perhaps too incremental, and that they tend to go long in the over-promising department. These guys really need to stay away from the cool-aid.


@dewster,

Wise words have been spoken here, as it is truly a real dilemma to see if modeling (the "sounds" at least) is ever going match sampling, as there isn't any best choice with either one, as of yet.

Re: New Pianoteq Piano [Re: kmf123kmf] #1961926
09/21/12 03:17 AM
09/21/12 03:17 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 805
M
Macy Offline
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Macy  Offline
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M

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 805
Originally Posted by kmf123kmf
Theoretically the use of modelling should produce perfect results, but that is dependent on both a perfect model and perfect execution.

Is that all? And I thought it was going to be difficult. We can also produce computers capable of perfect human intelligence, we just need a perfect model of the brain and perfect execution.

I received the Ivory II American (Steinway) Concert D today. Amazing how much it sounds like a the Ivory II German (Steinway) D, Vintage (Steinway) D and the Garritan Authorized Steinway D (may it rest in peace). All four of them are voiced a bit differently, but they are unmistakably Steinway's and don't sound like Yamaha's or Bosi's or any other pianos. Each applies modeling processes to actual samples. As an engineer, I'm fascinated by 100% modeling as a technology challenge. But as an amateur piano player looking for the best digital emulation of an acoustic piano, Pianoteq isn't even close to these sampling products.






Macy

CVP-409GP, Garritan CFX, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, Pianoteq, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad Pro/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere
Re: New Pianoteq Piano [Re: Macy] #1961935
09/21/12 03:42 AM
09/21/12 03:42 AM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 213
K
kurtie Offline
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kurtie  Offline
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K

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 213
Originally Posted by Macy
But as an amateur piano player looking for the best digital emulation of an acoustic piano, Pianoteq isn't even close to these sampling products.


Regarding sound, sampled pianos are going to be more like the real thing for obvious reasons (they are recordings of the real thing), and modelled are never going to be so good. Anyway digitals (sampled, modelled or whatever tech are you going to use) are never going to be as good as a real piano.

The question is, at what point they will be good enough? For me they are... for others, never will be.

Regarding playability, modelled pianos are much better than any sampled piano out there and modelled pianos behave more like an instrument. Sampled pianos does not behave like a piano, but more like a very ellaborated sampler. The pedal tends to be the weakest link on a sampled piano. At least for me, that is a huge difference and very noticeable... but others care more about sound than about playability (and I respect that smile ).

But it's good to have so many choices... each player may be looking for something different, and what is great for one may be not so great for other, and vice versa.

Regards,
Kurt.-

Last edited by kurtie; 09/21/12 03:43 AM.
Re: New Pianoteq Piano [Re: Keegan] #1961952
09/21/12 05:33 AM
09/21/12 05:33 AM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,410
The Netherlands
J
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member
JFP  Offline
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J

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,410
The Netherlands
I carefully layer Pianoteq - with tweaks - to my Kawai PHI piano. Works for the attack phase (Kawai) and sustain / release and resonances (Pianoteq). Takes a lot of tweaking, but works for me. (For classical work).

When I just wan't to play and have fun, I don't bother about such details and just play the Kawai. Not perfect but good enough for me.

Re: New Pianoteq Piano [Re: kurtie] #1961970
09/21/12 07:52 AM
09/21/12 07:52 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 805
M
Macy Offline
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Macy  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 805
Originally Posted by kurtie

Regarding playability, modelled pianos are much better than any sampled piano out there and modelled pianos behave more like an instrument. Sampled pianos does not behave like a piano, but more like a very ellaborated sampler. The pedal tends to be the weakest link on a sampled piano. At least for me, that is a huge difference and very noticeable...

I don't understand or experience the playability problem you are talking about. Half pedaling, re-pedaling work fine. Pedaling is modeled behavior for both the modeled piano and sampled piano, so what's the pedaling problem?


Macy

CVP-409GP, Garritan CFX, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, Pianoteq, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad Pro/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere
Re: New Pianoteq Piano [Re: JFP] #1962003
09/21/12 09:35 AM
09/21/12 09:35 AM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 3
D
Dax Offline
Junior Member
Dax  Offline
Junior Member
D

Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 3
@ JFP :
I am also getting results with experimenting to layer an "attack piano" sound with Pianoteq's beautiful sustain and resonance. Sometimes I use my Casio PX-330, and when I layer in a dash of Pianoteq via PX's audio inputs - the PX really feels more like the real thing, when you feel the piano vibrate with the onboard speakers. PX-330's (too) fast decay is more of a plus in this context!

In Apple's Mainstage, I use the EXS24's envelope to just fade out during the first seconds of sound, as a Pianoteq-layer then is left resonating alone. Of course you need to work a bit to mask the transition, but it's surprisingly doable...

I love the playability of Pianoteq, but it still need some help in the attack - it's the first second of the pianosound that's hard to nail, it seems...


---
Dax
Re: New Pianoteq Piano [Re: Macy] #1962006
09/21/12 09:45 AM
09/21/12 09:45 AM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 213
K
kurtie Offline
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kurtie  Offline
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K

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 213
Originally Posted by Macy
I don't understand or experience the playability problem you are talking about. Half pedaling, re-pedaling work fine. Pedaling is modeled behavior for both the modeled piano and sampled piano, so what's the pedaling problem?


It's all about how each one experiences playing... and experience is (luckily) not the same for everybody.

I have Galaxy Vintage D (that's what I can talk about... I've not tried every sampled piano out there so YMMV), and it has a great piano sound and I like it a lot, but sometimes I can notice the layers and that annoys me a bit. Does not happen with Pianoteq... it is more like a real piano in that department. Pedalling behaviour also seems to me more realistic in Pianoteq... Can be a bit weird sometimes with Vintage D (but it is quite good, anyway)...Vintage D half pedalling works quite bad in my computer (maybe I have something misconfigured, or it does not work well with my continuous pedal, don't know) and in Pianoteq works flawlessly.

Of course, regarding sound, Pianoteq loses hands down... but the last version has reached for me the "good enough" point. Anyway I usually don't play solo (I use Band in a Box sometimes, or play over an MP3, or with other virtual instruments) and in a mix, sound is not so important.

Anyway, IMHO, nothing plays like the real thing... modelled or sampled.

Regards,
Kurt.-

Last edited by kurtie; 09/21/12 09:53 AM.
Re: New Pianoteq Piano [Re: kurtie] #1962198
09/21/12 05:14 PM
09/21/12 05:14 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 805
M
Macy Offline
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Macy  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2010
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Originally Posted by kurtie
I have Galaxy Vintage D (that's what I can talk about... I've not tried every sampled piano out there so YMMV)...

Originally Posted by kurtie
Regarding playability, modelled pianos are much better than any sampled piano out there and modelled pianos behave more like an instrument. Sampled pianos does not behave like a piano, but more like a very ellaborated sampler. The pedal tends to be the weakest link on a sampled piano.

So your sweeping indictment of ALL sampled pianos is based on your experience with one sampled piano (which you probably never upgraded to the latest version that fixes its original buggy pedaling behavior?). Amazing!


Macy

CVP-409GP, Garritan CFX, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, Pianoteq, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad Pro/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere
Re: New Pianoteq Piano [Re: Keegan] #1962404
09/22/12 05:54 AM
09/22/12 05:54 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 219
Moscow, Russia
Yuri Pavlov Offline
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Yuri Pavlov  Offline
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Posts: 219
Moscow, Russia
I record Moon sonate at Blutner (sorry for mistakes... - play on memory without sheets) -
http://soundcloud.com/yuripavl/pianoteq-blutner
I liked the new piano, but it still need to adapt.
And unnaturalness of the sound is not felt.

Last edited by Yuri Pavlov; 09/22/12 06:24 AM.

DP: Korg Sp-250,Pianoteq 5.x, TruePianos 1.9x;
Grand piano: Blutner, Muhlbach, Yamaha, iRig Pro;
Upright: Kalujanka;
English (with some problems)
Re: New Pianoteq Piano [Re: Macy] #1962435
09/22/12 07:26 AM
09/22/12 07:26 AM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 213
K
kurtie Offline
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Originally Posted by Macy

So your sweeping indictment of ALL sampled pianos is based on your experience with one sampled piano (which you probably never upgraded to the latest version that fixes its original buggy pedaling behavior?). Amazing!


I'm stating my oppinion, not "sweeping indictments"... AFAIK there is not any court in this forum. I've tried some more but Vintage D is the only one I've played for hundreds of hours and I know it well.

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