Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
What's Hot!!
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Piano Tuning
How to Tune Pianos
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2017
(ad)
4th Finger Enigma Resolved!
Schumann's 4th Finger Enigma Resolved!
Who's Online Now
93 registered members (Agent88, bennevis, anotherscott, accordeur, ando, benoize, 21 invisible), 1,867 guests, and 1 spider.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Print Thread
Page 4 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
#1478542 - 07/21/10 02:16 PM Re: How to tune Tempered Octaves ? [Re: UnrightTooner]  
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,760
UnrightTooner Offline
5000 Post Club Member
UnrightTooner  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,760
Bradford County, PA
Gadzar:

If you stack octaves that are tuned as harmonious as possible, do you hear beats in the multiple octaves?


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
(ad 800)
PTG Journal
PTG Journal
#1478553 - 07/21/10 02:35 PM Re: How to tune Tempered Octaves ? [Re: UnrightTooner]  
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Gadzar Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Gadzar  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
Yes, if I stack clean octaves I do hear beats in the multiple octaves. But eventually I can stretch these single octaves to elliminate those beats.

For me harmony involves several, minimum 3, different notes. From a musical point of vue an octave involves only one note!

So I don't understand what you mean by tuning octaves as "harmonious" as possible.



Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
#1478784 - 07/21/10 10:35 PM Re: How to tune Tempered Octaves ? [Re: UnrightTooner]  
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,203
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member
pppat  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,203
Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted by UnrightTooner

Originally Posted by pppat

…..

Again, the 2:1 match between C3 and C4 is going to sound perfectly beatless, but inharmonicity messes with the higher partials. above the 2nd partial, C3's partials are going to be higher than those of C4, causing the overall pitch perception of the listener to experience C3 as higher in pitch than it should be for a sound-wisely perfectly pure octave.

…..


Now wait a minute! Who says that it is the higher partials that tell the ear what pitch a note is at? Someone else could say that it is the fundamental that tells the ear what pitch a note is at, and tuning to higher partials makes the higher notes too high.

Jeff, I did not say that it is the higher partials that tell the ear what pitch a note is at - to me it is much simpler than that. if the majority of the prominent partials are flat or sharp, the octave will be heard as too flat or too sharp.
This, and I stand by it, has to do with inharmonicity. The logical 2:1 octave leaves , because of the partial stretch in inharmonicity, all other intervals flat or sharp from the same side of pure, and as a result, the tone will be considered flat/sharp.

So what we aural tuners do is that we find the best clean-sounding spot for our octaves, where the 2:1 is a bit wide, the 4:2/6:3:s close to pure, and matches above that maybe slightly narrow. This is our clean-sounding octave, because it has taken the full piano tone into account.

Last edited by pppat; 07/21/10 10:37 PM.

Patrick Wingren, RPT

- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.
#1478942 - 07/22/10 07:03 AM Re: How to tune Tempered Octaves ? [Re: pppat]  
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,760
UnrightTooner Offline
5000 Post Club Member
UnrightTooner  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,760
Bradford County, PA
Thanks, Gadzar:

I would say that your use of “clean” and my use of “harmonious” are the same.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#1478945 - 07/22/10 07:28 AM Re: How to tune Tempered Octaves ? [Re: UnrightTooner]  
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,760
UnrightTooner Offline
5000 Post Club Member
UnrightTooner  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,760
Bradford County, PA
Pat:

Then it seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy that has no real meaning or reason to mention. Something like: When an octave is tuned to its best, clean sounding spot this utilizes all audible partials according to the strength of each one. And when the human ear is determining pitch, it utilizes all audible partials according to the strength of each one. So the best, clean sounding octave is also correct pitch-wise.

Now we could say that this particular octave is stretched from theoretical pitches because of the effects of inharmonicity. But we cannot say that this particular octave is stretched from what sounds best either harmonically or melodically.

Perhaps one of the confusing things is the adjective octave in the term “octave stretch”. It raises the question as to what octave is being stretched: the theoretical, the 2:1, the harmonic, or the melodic octave? If the adjective octave is not used, I think it is easier to define stretch in general.

What I am finding interesting in this discussion is what is perceived when harmonic octaves are stacked. To me the result is harmonic multiple octaves, but not melodic multiple octaves. To Gadzar the multiple octaves are not harmonic, beats are heard. I am not sure about BDB.

I think this is the best way to consider Mark's question about whether stretch beyond what occurs when tuning harmonic octaves is needed to create harmonic multiple octaves. In other words, is stretch necessary to satisfy iH or just the ear?

So what do you hear, Pat? When the best, clean sounding octaves (what I call harmonic octaves) are stacked, do you hear beats? And do they sound acceptable pitch-wise?


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
#1478948 - 07/22/10 07:30 AM Re: How to tune Tempered Octaves ? [Re: UnrightTooner]  
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,760
UnrightTooner Offline
5000 Post Club Member
UnrightTooner  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,760
Bradford County, PA
All:

I am sorry I was so antagonistic yesterday. I apologize. I was having a bad day, as is usual for me. Yesterday was a bit worse than others. I will try to do better.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
#1478960 - 07/22/10 07:53 AM Re: How to tune Tempered Octaves ? [Re: UnrightTooner]  
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,760
UnrightTooner Offline
5000 Post Club Member
UnrightTooner  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,760
Bradford County, PA
FWIW, I just compared the beatrates of double and triple octaves for some different tunings. Out of 4:2 octaves, mindless octaves, and twelfths, pure twelfths were definitely the best for keeping the beating of both the double and triple octaves slow. That is not to say that some other hybrid would not be better. It is just a comparison of these tuning schemes.

(Sorry Gadzar, I know you are not interested in the numbers from my simulation, but others may be.)


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
#1478961 - 07/22/10 07:57 AM Re: How to tune Tempered Octaves ? [Re: UnrightTooner]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
I'd say that beats are not particularely nonharmonic, (musically speaking, not theoretically) and that we may play with them, not fight them !

exemple :

http://www.ambassade-du-piano.eu/videos,concert-akihiro-sakiya-part-3-26759.html


Last edited by Kamin; 07/22/10 08:04 AM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#1479028 - 07/22/10 09:46 AM Re: How to tune Tempered Octaves ? [Re: UnrightTooner]  
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,265
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Mark R.  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,265
Pretoria, South Africa
Jeff,

I think it comes down to this issue:

What do you, Gadzar and each one of us call a "clean", "pure" etc. octave? If each one of us were to tune an octave as cleanly as we could, would all of us achieve the same width? My money is on the answer "no". How else do you explain that your stacked clean octaves give beatless multiple octaves, but Gadzar's don't?

Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Perhaps one of the confusing things is the adjective octave in the term “octave stretch”. It raises the question as to what octave is being stretched: the theoretical, the 2:1, the harmonic, or the melodic octave?


Well I think we can rule out the theoretical octave, because even a 2:1 octave is wider than a theoretical octave because of inharmonicity. So, even the "most basic" of octaves on a piano is already wider than theoretical.

As a layman, my understanding of a "clean", "pure" octave is exactly this "basic" 2:1 octave, because the only note that is compared to the lower note is the (fundamental of the) upper note. Hence, again in my understanding as a layman, any octave that is wider than 2:1 is stretched, but a 2:1 octave is not stretched (because anything narrower than 2:1 would be narrower than beatless, and surely you can't call a "narrower than beatless" octave "stretched"?).

And yes, inharmonicity can be unhappy - especially if the Tooner is having a bad day. wink


Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.
#1479055 - 07/22/10 10:15 AM Re: How to tune Tempered Octaves ? [Re: Mark R.]  
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,760
UnrightTooner Offline
5000 Post Club Member
UnrightTooner  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,760
Bradford County, PA
Mark:

You have a point. The only usable octave that can be accurately defined when talking about stretch is the 2:1 partial match octave.

But I think different tuners could tune exactly the same stacked aurally pure octaves and not agree whether the resulting multiple octaves have a beat or not.

For example, I often will listen to a double octave and it sounds beatless to me, but when I check with the M3-M17 test I find it does have a beat that I do not perceive. But I suppose if I had hands like Magilla Gorilla and could tune a double octave directly, I would tune it as a pure, beatless 4:1 double octave because my ear would lock onto the beat of that particular partial. This is definitely the case with twelfths. (I have a tool that spans the twelfth.)


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
#1479059 - 07/22/10 10:21 AM Re: How to tune Tempered Octaves ? [Re: Olek]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
Originally Posted by Kamin
I'd say that beats are not particularely nonharmonic, (musically speaking, not theoretically) and that we may play with them, not fight them !

exemple :

http://www.ambassade-du-piano.eu/videos,concert-akihiro-sakiya-part-3-26759.html



ABove : based on a "pure 5th" sequence , with double octaves beating as heck !

is it noticed ?


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#1479106 - 07/22/10 11:10 AM Re: How to tune Tempered Octaves ? [Re: Olek]  
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Gadzar Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Gadzar  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
Kamin,

I like the sound. I didn´t notice the beating octaves!

Last edited by Gadzar; 07/22/10 11:13 AM.

Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
#1479112 - 07/22/10 11:19 AM Re: How to tune Tempered Octaves ? [Re: Gadzar]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
Thanks Raphael !

so to say... it is not as noticed as one believe.


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#1479130 - 07/22/10 11:40 AM Re: How to tune Tempered Octaves ? [Re: Olek]  
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,920
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Bill Bremmer RPT  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,920
Madison, WI USA
I listened and did not hear anything dissonant at all. The sound has a fair amount of echo that would mask any beating that could be heard by a technician.


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
#1479288 - 07/22/10 03:44 PM Re: How to tune Tempered Octaves ? [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
Indeed, much echo, churchs ask for lot of stretch anyway ...the other recordings on that site a tuned in a similar way (Cordier basis) if I find other I will post them


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#1479304 - 07/22/10 04:14 PM Re: How to tune Tempered Octaves ? [Re: Mark R.]  
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,444
DoelKees Offline
2000 Post Club Member
DoelKees  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,444
Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted by Mark R.

As a layman, my understanding of a "clean", "pure" octave is exactly this "basic" 2:1 octave


I just tuned a precise G3G4 2:1 octave with my ETD. It beats and sounds out of tune. These are the 4:2 partial beats I assume.

Tuning an exact 4:2 octave sounds much better. Certainly not clean, but the beat is very slow.

A 6:3 octave sounds bad again, worse than a 2:1.

The octave that sound best to me is a 4:2 narrowed ever so slightly (so a 2:1/4:2 mix close to 4:2).

Not directly related; I think some people consider it too obvious to mention that octaves do not add up when taking inharmonicity into account, whereas others are not aware of this.

So if you tune for example a 2:1 C3C4 octave and then a 2:1 C4C5 octave, the double octave C2C5 is nothing in particular.

The flip side is if you tune a 4:1 double octave C3C5, and then tune C4 to C3 as a 2:1, the C4C5 octave is nothing in particular. If you tune C3C4 as 4:2 octave however, C4C5 will be a 2:1 octave.

Kees

#1479448 - 07/22/10 09:11 PM Re: How to tune Tempered Octaves ? [Re: UnrightTooner]  
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,203
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member
pppat  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,203
Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Perhaps one of the confusing things is the adjective octave in the term “octave stretch”. It raises the question as to what octave is being stretched: the theoretical, the 2:1, the harmonic, or the melodic octave? If the adjective octave is not used, I think it is easier to define stretch in general.


Yes, I agree completely - we might have to revise the tuning vocabulary a bit smile


Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
What I am finding interesting in this discussion is what is perceived when harmonic octaves are stacked. To me the result is harmonic multiple octaves, but not melodic multiple octaves. To Gadzar the multiple octaves are not harmonic, beats are heard. I am not sure about BDB.

I think this is the best way to consider Mark's question about whether stretch beyond what occurs when tuning harmonic octaves is needed to create harmonic multiple octaves. In other words, is stretch necessary to satisfy iH or just the ear?

So what do you hear, Pat? When the best, clean sounding octaves (what I call harmonic octaves) are stacked, do you hear beats? And do they sound acceptable pitch-wise?


no, I hear a slow sway in the octaves themselves (what others call 'air'), and a slow sway in the double octaves also, indicating that they are slightly wide at the 4:1, but the other partials seem to line up nicely. Just tuned a U3 this evening and checked it out.

If I, on the other hand, stack 2:1 up like in theoretical ET, I do quite clearly hear the upper partials beating (at least that is what I encountered in my brief research tonight.

Jeff, you seem to have a good grasp of inharmonicity, and I've always read your postings here with much interest. Sadly, my work wanted otherwise, kept me terribly busy at the time when you started the math thread, hope I can find the time to read that and, if I may, get back with some response.

I think that you several times have stated here that stacking two 4:2 octaves will always produce a wide 4:1. That is what I've encountered too. How about stacking two 6:3's, what kind of relationship would that have on the pure 12ths as inharmonicity kicks in?

For the extension of the temperament upwards into the treble (approx up to F6), I like to stretch slightly wide of 4:1, but keeping narrow 12ths. These gives me nice boundaries to stay inside. Is there any helpful math that you can throw into this practical goal of mine?


Patrick Wingren, RPT

- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.
#1479451 - 07/22/10 09:17 PM Re: How to tune Tempered Octaves ? [Re: DoelKees]  
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,203
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member
pppat  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,203
Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by Mark R.

As a layman, my understanding of a "clean", "pure" octave is exactly this "basic" 2:1 octave


I just tuned a precise G3G4 2:1 octave with my ETD. It beats and sounds out of tune. These are the 4:2 partial beats I assume.

Tuning an exact 4:2 octave sounds much better. Certainly not clean, but the beat is very slow.

A 6:3 octave sounds bad again, worse than a 2:1.

The octave that sound best to me is a 4:2 narrowed ever so slightly (so a 2:1/4:2 mix close to 4:2).

Not directly related; I think some people consider it too obvious to mention that octaves do not add up when taking inharmonicity into account, whereas others are not aware of this.

So if you tune for example a 2:1 C3C4 octave and then a 2:1 C4C5 octave, the double octave C2C5 is nothing in particular.

The flip side is if you tune a 4:1 double octave C3C5, and then tune C4 to C3 as a 2:1, the C4C5 octave is nothing in particular. If you tune C3C4 as 4:2 octave however, C4C5 will be a 2:1 octave.

Kees


Kees,

what size instrument was this? A larger scale grand often has the 2:1's, 4:2's and 6:3's so closely lined up that you sometimes when tuning those instruments start questioning everything you thought you've learned smile

On the other hand, there can be huge differences between these octave partial matches on a smaller instrument.


Patrick Wingren, RPT

- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.
#1479457 - 07/22/10 09:27 PM Re: How to tune Tempered Octaves ? [Re: Olek]  
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,203
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member
pppat  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,203
Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted by Kamin
Originally Posted by Kamin
I'd say that beats are not particularely nonharmonic, (musically speaking, not theoretically) and that we may play with them, not fight them !

exemple :

http://www.ambassade-du-piano.eu/videos,concert-akihiro-sakiya-part-3-26759.html



ABove : based on a "pure 5th" sequence , with double octaves beating as heck !

is it noticed ?


No dissonance that bothered me either. At least this tuning seems to work very great in a lively acoustic place, for that kind of sparkling piano writing!

What really interested me though, is that I found this kind of tuning more coherent than a pure 12th tuning! Very interesting. Is it the obvious sparkling quality of the triads (with their pure 5ths) that causes this?

Any comments are welcome. I have to try this wild stretch myself, too smile It is a cordier-based tuning, right?

Last edited by pppat; 07/22/10 09:28 PM.

Patrick Wingren, RPT

- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.
#1479499 - 07/22/10 10:21 PM Re: How to tune Tempered Octaves ? [Re: pppat]  
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,444
DoelKees Offline
2000 Post Club Member
DoelKees  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,444
Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted by pppat

what size instrument was this? A larger scale grand often has the 2:1's, 4:2's and 6:3's so closely lined up that you sometimes when tuning those instruments start questioning everything you thought you've learned smile

On the other hand, there can be huge differences between these octave partial matches on a smaller instrument.


A century old Heintzmann upright. It does not tolerate 6:3 octaves.

Kees

#1479515 - 07/22/10 10:42 PM Re: How to tune Tempered Octaves ? [Re: DoelKees]  
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 25,422
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 25,422
Oakland
Sure it does. It has no feelings. You are the one who might not tolerate whatever tuning may be done on it.


Semipro Tech
#1479583 - 07/23/10 12:54 AM Re: How to tune Tempered Octaves ? [Re: BDB]  
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,444
DoelKees Offline
2000 Post Club Member
DoelKees  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,444
Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted by BDB
Sure it does. It has no feelings. You are the one who might not tolerate whatever tuning may be done on it.

You may be right, but when I stretched the upper octave too much it lashed out at me with its A7 string, so I'm not sure about its inanimate status.

Kees

#1479686 - 07/23/10 07:12 AM Re: How to tune Tempered Octaves ? [Re: DoelKees]  
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,760
UnrightTooner Offline
5000 Post Club Member
UnrightTooner  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,760
Bradford County, PA
Kees:

You mentioned, “The octave that sound best to me is a 4:2 narrowed ever so slightly (so a 2:1/4:2 mix close to 4:2).” Since two stacked 4:2 octaves always produces a wide 4:1, I suspect that stacked, aurally best, octaves like you mention will produce an aurally beatless 4:1 double octave. If you try it, could you let me know?

Also, I was wondering in an earlier post about the best stretch to produce the purest double and triple octaves. With the tunings already in my simulator it seemed that pure twelfths worked well. If you have the time and inclination, could you see what your application comes up with? I’d be especially interested in the beat curve of the twelfths for a 4:1/8:1 compromise.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
#1479690 - 07/23/10 07:28 AM Re: How to tune Tempered Octaves ? [Re: UnrightTooner]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
I dont understand, all this is ih dependent, so the ih level may be given to have a reference.
at a 440 it seem to vary from 0,5 to 0,9 cts. is not that influeincing the beats 2/3 octaves above ?
I belive that an elegant solution is to use a fixed ratio, something that relate in the nearest way to the partial series (ex : 12-15)


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#1479697 - 07/23/10 08:03 AM Re: How to tune Tempered Octaves ? [Re: pppat]  
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,760
UnrightTooner Offline
5000 Post Club Member
UnrightTooner  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,760
Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted by pppat
…..

Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
…..

So what do you hear, Pat? When the best, clean sounding octaves (what I call harmonic octaves) are stacked, do you hear beats? And do they sound acceptable pitch-wise?


no, I hear a slow sway in the octaves themselves (what others call 'air'), and a slow sway in the double octaves also, indicating that they are slightly wide at the 4:1, but the other partials seem to line up nicely. Just tuned a U3 this evening and checked it out.

…..


Pat:

Are you saying that when you tune an octave to be aurally pure, it still has a beat?

Originally Posted by pppat
…..

I think that you several times have stated here that stacking two 4:2 octaves will always produce a wide 4:1. That is what I've encountered too. How about stacking two 6:3's, what kind of relationship would that have on the pure 12ths as inharmonicity kicks in?

…..


Except on very large pianos, and only in the upper bass, would it be necessary to tune 6:3 octaves to avoid narrow twelfths. The way that twelfths work is that when keeping with a octave type with a steady beat rate or steady compromise with another octave type (unless the octave is very narrow such as a straight 2:1) at some point in the treble the twelfths will become pure and then wide. Since the desire is for the octave type or compromise between octave types to become narrower, the twelfth is an excellent moderator to control this. And the twelfths need not be pure. The effect of mindless octaves also causes the octave types to become narrower.

Originally Posted by pppat
…..

For the extension of the temperament upwards into the treble (approx up to F6), I like to stretch slightly wide of 4:1, but keeping narrow 12ths. These gives me nice boundaries to stay inside. Is there any helpful math that you can throw into this practical goal of mine?


Well I can’t just show you some equations because my simulator has taught me empirically. I try things and then interpret the results. But I think that is what you want.

Your goal is mindless octaves, or something very close. Since stacked 4:2 octaves always produce wide double octaves, I would suggest extending your temperament with these. When the first twelfth is tuned evaluate whether it is narrow. On a short piano, it probably will be pure. Make any needed adjustments, continue to the double octave, and make more adjustments if needed.

Consider what a 12ths and a 15th with a common note on top is based on. It is based on the fourth between the bottom notes of these intervals. Now also consider what the test intervals for the 12th, the 15th and this P4 are. They are the M3, the M6 and the M17 from the note a M3 below the lowest note of the double octave. When the M6 beats faster than the M3 and slower than the M17 then the twelfth is narrow and the 17th is wide. How wide and narrow depends on the inferred fourth whose beat rate is the difference between the M3 and M6. The wider the fourth, the greater difference between the 12th and the 17th.

And here is a update: The best way I have found, and the method I use now, to tune exacting 4:2 octaves is to include the note a P4 above the lower note. By first listening to this fourth and matching the beat of the resulting fifth when playing all three notes at once, I am able to tune dead-on 4:2 octaves. So I just continue with 4:2 octaves, making corrections to previously tuned notes and retuning the octave as needed and monitoring the resulting twelfths and 17ths. Then I switch to pure twelfths where I choose with the SchwartzenFluegan tool. (I like to come up with a new, intentionally nonsensical, name for it on occasion. Hopefully I don't insult someone's pedigree in doing so!) The top octave doesn't usually work well with the tool, so octaves, usually with a little edge to them, are then tuned.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
#1479701 - 07/23/10 08:10 AM Re: How to tune Tempered Octaves ? [Re: Olek]  
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,760
UnrightTooner Offline
5000 Post Club Member
UnrightTooner  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,760
Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted by Kamin
I dont understand, all this is ih dependent, so the ih level may be given to have a reference.
at a 440 it seem to vary from 0,5 to 0,9 cts. is not that influeincing the beats 2/3 octaves above ?
I belive that an elegant solution is to use a fixed ratio, something that relate in the nearest way to the partial series (ex : 12-15)


Not sure just what you mean. A more detailed example may help.

Do you realize that iH doubles throughout the unwound strings about every 8 semitones? For smaller pianos the slope is less, so the iH in the tenor is higher.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
#1479716 - 07/23/10 08:41 AM Re: How to tune Tempered Octaves ? [Re: UnrightTooner]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
¤ I believe you have a finger on it!

Because depending of the iH level the beats in doubles or triples will vary, using an interval as the 12th as a moderator is a good idea.

I believe it is good because 12th is also in the harmonic serie.

Next step is that I believe there is some acoustical stability availeable in a floating compromize (mindless octave) It is not only a way to regulate stretch, it is a coherent level of resonance that the instrument naturally tend to grasp on.
I asked engineers (that build planes or building) because that acoustical equilibrium was not clear to me , soundEd a little mystical, but they told me that acoustical equilibrium is a valid concept.

It allow to avoid referrences to partial match, then "direct tuning" begin to be possible, the main difficulty is to install a skeleton that will allow the piano to settle in that form.

I have hard times to explain that .



Last edited by Kamin; 07/23/10 09:28 AM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#1479740 - 07/23/10 09:26 AM Re: How to tune Tempered Octaves ? [Re: Olek]  
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,760
UnrightTooner Offline
5000 Post Club Member
UnrightTooner  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,760
Bradford County, PA
Kamin:

I have to chuckle at myself. Acoustical equilibrium and spinets don't mix too well. Especially like the last one. 60 cents low, missing monochord, breaking a bichord, etc. Oh, that piano will definitely settle! Actually, it had a pretty nice treble and a better touch than most spinets.

Perhaps there are exceptional pianos that desire to settle to there own acoustical equilibrium. Or perhaps that is the best way to relate to what a piano is “telling” you. (Do I love her because she is wonderful, or is she wonderful because I love her?)


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
#1479747 - 07/23/10 09:30 AM Re: How to tune Tempered Octaves ? [Re: UnrightTooner]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
Jeff, it works on very small pianos, whatever the scaling is, in any case the "grip" exist.

I should have recorded that, 1 meter tall Chinese low end piano, get too musical for what I was expecting, I was really surprized.



Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#1479938 - 07/23/10 02:31 PM Re: How to tune Tempered Octaves ? [Re: Olek]  
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,760
UnrightTooner Offline
5000 Post Club Member
UnrightTooner  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,760
Bradford County, PA
All:

Going to the cabin for a long weekend. Might see some rattlesnakes, been a while. See ya Tuesday.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Page 4 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

Moderated by  Piano World 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World)
our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, Digital Piano Dolly, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping* on Jansen Artist Piano Benches, Cocoweb Piano Lamps, Hidrau Hydraulic Piano Benches
(*free shipping within contiguous U.S. only)
(ad)
Pearl River & Ritmuller
Ritmuller Pianos
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq 6 Out now
(ad)
Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restorations and sales
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


New Topics - Multiple Forums
Improve your sight reading series
by Scottswald. 10/20/17 06:34 PM
Piano with a harpsichord lever?
by Upex. 10/20/17 06:26 PM
New 2017. Fazioli Models
by Zedd01. 10/20/17 03:29 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics182,405
Posts2,666,048
Members89,007
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Check It Out!
There's a lot more to Piano World than just the forums.
Click Here to
Explore The Rest of Piano World!!
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0