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Posted By: Rille Stark New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/17/09 08:22 PM
CP1

CP5

CP50

"Spectral Component Modeling" sounds like an interesting technical term... cool
Time for a new generation?


Peace
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/17/09 08:30 PM
Thanks for the link, Richard....these look pretty slick.

Yamaha has developed an uncanny ability to nail the market right in the sweet spot every time.

Snazzy
Posted By: 7even Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/17/09 09:08 PM
Wow, interesting.... Comparison chart here: http://www.yamahasynth.com/jp/library/cp1_5_50_en/compare/comparison_eng.html
Video demonstration describing this "Spectral Component Modeling"
http://www.keyboardmag.com/article/yamaha-cp-1-stage/December-2009/105233

I wonder when they'll be in stores... the CP1 and CP5 look kinda nice.
Posted By: Huygens Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/17/09 09:12 PM
Seems the CP5 is the strongest one.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/17/09 11:55 PM
Originally Posted by Richard Stark
"Spectral Component Modeling" sounds like an interesting technical term...

I'll take a wild guess.

I think they are finally employing MP3-like spectral (FFT or DCT) compression to significantly reduce (~1/10) the size of the stored samples. I haven't researched it much, but it is probably the case that the compressed domain is linear, so they could scale / mix samples there and then run them through a single decompression stage.

If that is the case, then this is really good news. I'll take modern lossy compression (at an adequate bit rate) over stone age compression like note stretching and looping any day of the week.

However, if I were building a DP I don't think I'd go this route (particularly with flash memory so cheap). But I've thought about it a bit.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/18/09 12:07 AM
So what's better:

NW-STAGE keyboard (Wooden synthetic ivory weighted keyboard)

-OR-

GH keyboard

?

I don't think I would put a vacuum fluorescent display in a stage-type instrument. They are not as rugged as LED or LCD, require high voltages to operate, and they dim over time.

I don't understand what the numbers represent in the "SCM Piano Block" section of the comparison chart - is this memory? Whatever they are, the CP1 has more than the others.
Posted By: Kawai James Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/18/09 12:13 AM
Wow, these look very sexy!

I have my eye on the CP1 - that 55x2 character display is gorgeous!

Also, I note that all three instruments include the S6B acoustic piano sound, which I am assuming is similar to the highly regarded Natural S6 voice previously only available in the S90XS/S70XS.

And just a handful of vintage electric pianos too, rather than hundreds of poor quality sounds that no musician would ever consider using - good decision Yamaha!

Is 'NW STAGE' a new action? I haven't heard of this one before?

Originally Posted by Huygens
Seems the CP5 is the strongest one.


It's not immediately clear which instrument offers the highest specification, some are stronger in different areas rather than being arranged in a hierarchy - again, another interesting concept.

I'm really looking forward to trying these new models!

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/18/09 12:46 AM
"Yamaha even developed a special NW-STAGE wooden key action specifically to meet the demands of top pros." I guess this is a new action?

The piano (and other) samples over there sound pretty good, though I would like to hear individual notes decay over a long period of time (I really wish that was part of the Purgatory Creek MIDI demo). Demos are usually so frenetic that any compression issues are effectively hidden (the whole point of a blizzard of notes, I guess). To their credit, they let the sustain at the end go on for a while before damping the strings.

Anyone got any info on when these will be released into the wild?
Posted By: ChrisA Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/18/09 12:50 AM
Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by Richard Stark
"Spectral Component Modeling" sounds like an interesting technical term...

I'll take a wild guess.


I'll guess it's a little different. I think they have broken the samples down into "components" like hammer strikes and the "bright" sounds near the ends of the string and the mellow sounds near the center of the strings. then on playback they can add weighted sum with more of the center string sound for a low key velocity and more of the end string sound for the high velocity string. This is almost the way physical modling works but I think Yamaha is doing it with sampling. The proportion of end to mid string sounds would change over time as the note sustained. Yamaha talks about "12 components" so rather then just end and center strings sound they might have 10 other sounds and then they get blended with time varying weights.

I am pretty sure this is what Roland does in the RD700 and FP7 too. Roland calls is "performance modelling".

None of these new CP series pianos have speakers. So the dynamic range and the level of bass power is entirely up to the customer and his budget.

Last night I was at a live music performance, 2,000 seat auditorium. The dynamic range is amazing when you put 25 instruments on stage. I noticed the percussionist, when he did the cymbal hits his hair would literally blow backwards. I wonder what speakers it would take before the "crash cymbal" sample in my Roland synth would make my hair blow backwards when I press the key? Reminded me of that old Maxel ad.
Posted By: M. Doege Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/18/09 12:58 AM
Originally Posted by dewster

Anyone got any info on when these will be released into the wild?


CP-1 next January and the other two later that year is what I've read.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/18/09 01:10 AM
"Spectral Component Modeling" - I'm sure someone in the department of obfuscation got a raise for that one.

The heck of it is, if Yamaha would just come out and explain, in plain english, how the heck they are doing the pianos in these things I would either immediately sit up and take notice or strike them from the list. I think they could do it without giving anything proprietary away (DPs are notoriously behind the technology curve anyway) and it would make it so much easier on us tech savvy consumers.

I'm starting to think they just hate us.
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/18/09 01:14 AM
If the consumer was that tech savvy, they wouldn't need it explained to them. wink

Snazzy
Posted By: Kawai James Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/18/09 01:32 AM
dewster, the Yamaha America website seems to make a little more sense than the YamahaSynth.com site (I get the impression that the later is still in development).

http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/List/ModelSeriesList.html?CTID=205800&CNTYP=PRODUCT

Take a look at the brochure too, it's very sleek, and includes an explanation of SCM. Clearly, Yamaha have adopted physical modelling for these new instruments.

According to the Japanese press release, the CP1 will retail at 525,000 JPY which is approaching the V-Piano price-bracket.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/18/09 02:31 AM
Hey, thanks for the pointer K-James! SCM is still largely a mystery to me though, I need more info to sooth my savage techie breast.

A lower price would sooth it too.
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/18/09 04:56 AM
Originally Posted by dewster
"Spectral Component Modeling" - I'm sure someone in the department of obfuscation got a raise for that one.
It's just marketing speak. It doesn't HAVE to mean anything.

They might just as well have called it "sonic projection synthesis". Or "modulated audio stratification". Or "bibbidy bobbidy boo". smile

It just has to sound good, to attract attention. Nothing more.
Posted By: ChrisA Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/18/09 05:14 AM
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Originally Posted by dewster
"Spectral Component Modeling" - I'm sure someone in the department of obfuscation got a raise for that one.
It's just marketing speak. It doesn't HAVE to mean anything..


Correct but they do talk a little about it on the web site and give enough hints that we can make slightly informed guesses.

For example when they talk about components of the sound. This implies that what is stored is not a simple recording like a CD but that somehow they have broken the recording down some how into well, "components". What these are we don't really know.

They print in the FAQ
Quote
you can then adjust various parameters of physical components like "Hammer Stiffness" or "Stiriking Position"

This really says they are doing some form of modeling that is certainly not done in their current line of DPs We don't know the details but I'm sticking with my guess that Yamaha is using a hybrid of sampling and models and not a pure physics model.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/18/09 06:08 AM
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Originally Posted by dewster
"Spectral Component Modeling" - I'm sure someone in the department of obfuscation got a raise for that one.
It's just marketing speak. It doesn't HAVE to mean anything.

They might just as well have called it "sonic projection synthesis". Or "modulated audio stratification". Or "bibbidy bobbidy boo". smile

It just has to sound good, to attract attention. Nothing more.

What if Toyota told you the car you were considering purchasing had an engine that works via the new mysterious "bibbidy bobbidy boo" processes? You'd say "F that, I'm getting the Honda that uses internal combustion!"

It shows Yamaha don't respect their knowledgeable customers, which I have experienced directly.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/18/09 06:13 AM
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
If the consumer was that tech savvy, they wouldn't need it explained to them.

If I had some kind of idea of what it was that they were going out of their way to not explain to me, that would be one thing, but I don't even know that.

What are we supposed to do, read their frikkin' minds?

Honestly, corporate engineers need to take back a tiny modicum of control over how the products they so tirelessly labor over are represented by the suits.

These details MEAN something to some of us, and could easily stimulate sales, if they weren't endlessly obfuscated.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/18/09 06:22 AM
Originally Posted by ChrisA
For example when they talk about components of the sound. This implies that what is stored is not a simple recording like a CD but that somehow they have broken the recording down some how into well, "components". What these are we don't really know.

They print in the FAQ
Quote
you can then adjust various parameters of physical components like "Hammer Stiffness" or "Stiriking Position"

This really says they are doing some form of modeling that is certainly not done in their current line of DPs We don't know the details but I'm sticking with my guess that Yamaha is using a hybrid of sampling and models and not a pure physics model.

You may be 100% right. But this could also mean that they are only adjusting the cutoff and Q of a filter. Market speak can mean anything, at this point no one expects it to be truthful.

But how does Yamaha's crazy talk help me, the curious consumer, who wants to buy something based on solid engineering?
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/18/09 07:15 AM
Originally Posted by ChrisA
Correct but they do talk a little about it on the web site and give enough hints that we can make slightly informed guesses.
That's just what they want us to do. Make guesses. When we infer things that they did not state, we render them harmless from any claims of deception. That's standard procedure for marketing.
Posted By: LesCharles73 Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/18/09 05:47 PM
Originally Posted by dewster


I don't think I would put a vacuum fluorescent display in a stage-type instrument. They are not as rugged as LED or LCD, require high voltages to operate, and they dim over time.


Sounds like the same display Kurzweil uses. You're right, they do dim over time (though mine is 10 years old and has yet to noticeably dim), but they LOOK cool!

haha
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/18/09 05:57 PM
We have an old Ensoniq ESQ-1, in the studio with vacuum fluorescent display...it dates back to around 1986 and the display still works as new.

Not bad for a 23 year old instrument.

I agree with the above poster...I think Yamaha's displays look cool, and will be highly visible.

Snazzy
Posted By: voxpops Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/18/09 06:37 PM
Having watched the Keyboard Mag video and read some of the blurb, I'm thinking that what's going on in these new pianos seems to be a more advanced form of what happens in my GEM Prp800. There, the piano samples are modified by the modeling algorithms so as to create a complex interaction that simulates the resonances and harmonics present in a real piano. The new Yamahas appear to be using multiple velocity samples and re-blending them using the models, whereas the GEM uses just a single velocity sample (and so has absolutely no audible velocity switching). In both the GEM and Yamaha, the electric pianos are completely modeled without the use of samples. If my theory is correct, the text below, copied from the GEM manual MAY shed some light on what's going on. Of course, I'm no techie and therefore could have this completely wrong - in which case, my apologies - but at least it explains the principles of modeling in layman's terms.

FROM GEM's MANUAL:

Physical Modeling is a method of sound synthesis based upon a mathematical model which describes the physical construction of the instrument being simulated. Unlike sampling technology, in which an existing sound is simply recorded at a particular moment in time, (to remain essentially the same for ever), the sounds produced by a Physical Model continuously react and respond to the player’s input, maintaining all the little nuances and imperfections which provide the most reliable subconscious assurance that the instrument being played is the real thing. A sampled sound can be likened to a “snapshot” of a particular moment in time during which an instrument is being played. It’s like taking a photograph. The goal of Physical Modeling is this: Instead of simply recording the final audible product of an instrument like an electric piano, we replicate all the elements which are incorporated into its construction. If the physical model is constructed carefully and accurately with meticulous attention to detail, the resulting sound should be exactly like the real thing and, more importantly, the experience of playing and interacting with the instrument should be similarly convincing. In the Rp 800, all the acoustic piano sounds are created by combining sample playback with Generalmusic’s Natural String Resonance, Damper Physical Model, Advanced Release and FADE technologies, (described below). Other instruments such as RHODES, WURLI and CLAVINET are created using pure Physical Modeling.

Natural String Resonance
This physical modeling technology, patented by Generalmusic as Natural String Resonance, allows all of the complex harmonics normally produced by a piano’s soundboard to be faithfully re pro duced. This means that a note’s individual sound will always be slightly different depending upon which other notes are currently being held, (and consequently which strings are un-damped and free to resonate in sympathy with the note played). If you hold down a low C and let the note decay, the strings for that note are still un-damped for as long as the key remains depressed. If you now strike another C higher up the keyboard, (staccato), you will hear the sympathetic resonance of the low C strings in response to the new note played. This natural effect replicates exactly what happens inside a grand piano. If you experiment with different combinations of notes you will hear harmonic colors particular to each. Because this effect is produced by physical modeling and not by samples or DSP effects, the result is a musically and technically accurate simulation of a piano’s soundboard and virtually infinite combinations of harmonics can be produced.

Damper Physical Model
Another technology patented by Generalmusic is Damper Physical Model. Whenever the damper pedal is depressed, the damper physical model simulates the effect of sympathetic resonance being produced by the strings which the action of the pedal has now left free to resonate. Use the damper pedal to hear the effect of the Damper Physical Model by comparing the sounds of notes played in the highest octave of the instrument with and with out the damper pedal depressed.

Advanced Release Technology
The particular sound of a piano string being stopped by a damper while in motion is replicated by Generalmusic’s unique Advanced Release Technology. Sample based electronic pianos traditionally use an envelope generator to control what happens when a key is released. This simply allows the sample loop to continue playing for a set period of time until its amplitude is finally reduced to zero by the envelope generator. In an acoustic piano, vibrating strings are silenced when a felt damper comes into contact with the moving string. When this happens, depending on how hard the key was struck and the length of the string itself, certain frequencies are damped earlier than others while some other frequencies are even accentuated, (anyone who ever studied how to produce harmonics on a guitar will recognize this principle). This produces a distinctive harmonic “ring” as the different frequencies in the string’s tone dissipa te through out the piano soundboard. This Advanced Release Technology in the Rp700 series simulates these phenomena with complete accuracy throughout the 88 note range.

FADE - Filter Algorithm Dynamic Emulation
Reproduction of the complex harmonic and dynamic changes which take place as you increase or decrease the velocity of a key-strike on a piano have always presented a serious problem for traditional sample-playback technology. The only practical way to replicate these`changes has been to select three or four distinctly different levels and switch between these according to the velocity with which the key is struck. This produces the unnatural effect of having clearly audible steps between different velocity levels, further diminishing the authenticity of the sound reproduction. Unlike the velocity-switching methods used in other electronic pianos, Generalmusic’s unique FADE technology utilizes only one specially configured sound source per note. At the heart of the FADE engine is an extensive database which can be used to look up the precise harmonic content of any note played at any velocity level. Whenever a note is played, the FADE engine analyzes the velocity of the key-strike and constructs, in real-time, a model of the necessary harmonic content for that particular note played at that velocity. The note’s sound source is processed by the FADE engine with appropriate harmonic content being added or subtracted accordingly. In practice, FADE technology provides seamless transition from pianissimo all the way through to fortissimo for each note without any audible switching.
Posted By: signa Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/18/09 08:21 PM
video demo:

http://keyboardmag.com/article/yamaha-cp-1-stage/December-2009/105233
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/18/09 09:32 PM
The CP1 is listed at $5999.00 USD...street would be around $5000 USD.

The CP5 list is $3299.00 USD, so street should be around $2600 USD.

The CP50 is listed at $2,199.00 USD so street should be around $1700 USD.


Snazzy

C1...Estimated Arrival in US 12/30/09

C5 ETA will be 3/15/10

C50 ETA will be 3/15/10



Posted By: ChrisA Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/18/09 10:20 PM
Quote
In both the GEM and Yamaha, the electric pianos are completely modeled without the use of samples.


That is not exactly the way I heard it on the video, You have to listen to all three videos in sequence.

What I heard was there are four different classes of piano sounds, (1) acoustic piano, (2) Synthesizers, (3) Rhodes type and (4) reed type. All of these in their original incarnation are "real" analog instruments.

My interpretation is that 1, 3 and 4 are sample based and the synth sounds are created synthetically. Each of the four clases use a different sound generation system

I think he specifically said the synth souds were not samples, but he makes a distinction between synths and E. pianos.

When the yamaha guy talks about the electric piano he says the sound can come from hits on different locations on the string or tine.

Then he goes non to talk about digital modeling of the amp and speaker and various stomp boxes. I assume this is the same "electronic modeling" we see in various DSP gutiar amps. It's is not the same as modelling the sound of the piano. Those old e. pianos where a lot like electric guitars in that a lot of their tone was a result of the tube amps and speakers.

BTW. Most guitarists have the same opinion of "modeled amps" as pianists have of DPs. They are OK (maybe) but not at all like the real thing.

The CP1 is a vey complex instrument. It looks like it can do a lot more than a Roland v-piano and sells for $1k less. Bt I doubt many acoustic piano plays will rush to it because 3/4 of the the CP1 does is Rhodes and synths and simulation of old tube based amps and built-in EQ.
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/18/09 10:37 PM
I'd say the C5 will be the most versatile and probably the most popular.

It has a mic input for the solo performer, as well as the other sounds one may use performing in a band. It has FX from the Motif XS workstations and rhythm patterns for a wide range of musical applications(arranger?). Also the NW-STAGE wooden weighted keyboard. Pitch wheel.Record and playback functions for MIDI and audio.


I couldn't find the weight.

It is around the same price as Roland's RD-700GX.




The C1 will compete with Roland's V-Piano.

At 60 lbs, it's a bit lighter, and probably more portable than the Roland. It weighs about the same as my CP-300.

It also has master-keyboard functions which have been specially crafted for use on-stage, up to four virtual zones can be setup on the keyboard and assigned to four different tone generators, including other MIDI instruments. It also has a pitch wheel something Roland neglected to put on the V-Piano.


The C50 is hardly entry level; it skips the wood keyboard, and is probably the lightest but still retains the SCM (Spectral Component Modeling) technology of the other two. It also has a pitch wheel. Also has rhythm patterns.Record and playback functions for MIDI and audio.


This is going to get very interesting.

Snazzy
Posted By: voxpops Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/18/09 11:50 PM
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
I couldn't find the weight.


The C5 is 25.2kg (roughly 55lbs)

Originally Posted by ChrisA

What I heard was there are four different classes of piano sounds, (1) acoustic piano, (2) Synthesizers, (3) Rhodes type and (4) reed type. All of these in their original incarnation are "real" analog instruments.

My interpretation is that 1, 3 and 4 are sample based and the synth sounds are created synthetically. Each of the four clases use a different sound generation system

I think he specifically said the synth souds were not samples, but he makes a distinction between synths and E. pianos.


You may well be correct, but it's not completely clear from either the literature or the video. Either way, the Rhodes and Wurlitzer sounds are pretty good to my ears.
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/18/09 11:58 PM
Thanks Voxpops...I could live with 55 lbs, I believe, especially if it sounds better than my CP-300.

Won't be out till March next year, but I imagine playing the C1 will give a good approximation of what it will sound like.

These are a complete surprise; especially for Roland, I imagine. wink

I'm interested in what "rhythm patterns" means...maybe a basic arranger function, or preset drum/arpeggio patterns as on the Motif.

I think the keyboards are all wood this time (including the black notes) as the action is supposed to be all new. No doubt these will end up in the Clavinovas.

Snazzy
Posted By: M. Doege Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/19/09 12:17 AM
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer


I couldn't find the weight.


CP-1: 27.2 kg (60 lbs)
CP-5: 25.2 kg (56 lbs)
CP-50: 20.9 kg (46 lbs)

from http://www.yamahasynth.com/jp/library/cp1_5_50_en/compare/comparison_eng.html
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/19/09 12:19 AM
Cool Martin! None of them are what you would call heavyweights.

I gotta call Zeke tonight.

Snazzy
Posted By: M. Doege Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/19/09 01:38 AM
No, not much heavier than e.g. the SP-250 when you think about it. Given their features and NW action, I actually find that pretty amazing!
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/19/09 01:49 AM
They are pretty light, considering.

The acoustic pianos were awesome, but I thought the Rhodes emulations were superb. I could dump my old 73.

The Rhodes in my Avant Grand sounds similar, but is not adjustable like the C1's.

I think the idea of the vacuum fluorescent display, is that it's so highly visible on stage...wonder how it would be in sunlight, as in an outdoor gig?

Snazzy
Posted By: M. Doege Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/19/09 02:00 AM
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer

I think the idea of the vacuum fluorescent display, is that it's so highly visible on stage...wonder how it would be in sunlight, as in an outdoor gig?


Wikipedia says these kinds of displays can be made to be real bright, so that they could even work in sunlight. That's why VFDs are also popular for car dashboards...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_fluorescent_display
Posted By: signa Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/19/09 06:43 AM
Andy's Music has the prices of those CPs:

http://www.andysmusiconline.com/categories/portable-keyboards/1.html
Posted By: 4evrBeginR Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/19/09 09:24 AM
Won't you get in trouble with your employer when you are so enthusiastic about your competitor's products?
Posted By: 4evrBeginR Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/19/09 09:26 AM
Originally Posted by dewster
"Spectral Component Modeling" - I'm sure someone in the department of obfuscation got a raise for that one.


I knew someone in market that told me one time, "when in doubt, (like when they don't understand the write up from engineering) just make stuff up."
Posted By: Kawai James Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/19/09 09:43 AM
Originally Posted by 4evr88keys
Won't you get in trouble with your employer when you are so enthusiastic about your competitor's products?


No.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/19/09 03:41 PM
Originally Posted by voxpops
You may well be correct, but it's not completely clear from either the literature or the video.

Mission accomplished! The guys in Marketing are high-fiving as we speak.
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/19/09 03:55 PM
The only real proof is in the playing.

Videos and marketing hype mean very little to anyone who would be serious enough to buy one.

Specs rarely tell the whole story.

Snazzy
Posted By: voxpops Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/19/09 04:31 PM
Wouldn't it be nice if we had a YAMAHA Bob and a ROLAND Keith here to complement the invaluable input from KAWAI James? They wouldn't even have to be real, they could be just spectrally modeled...
Posted By: M. Doege Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/20/09 04:24 PM
Just checked the European price for the CP-1 -- €5,300, or about $7,600! frown

http://www.musik-schmidt.de/gb-Yamaha-CP1.html
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/20/09 04:32 PM
Originally Posted by Martin C. Doege
Just checked the European price for the CP-1 -- €5,300, or about $7,600! frown


Shucks, Martin. That's disgusting! It's highway robbery. shocked

We don't pay near that price in the USA; the most the C1 would sell for would be full retail which would be $5999...but the "street" price will probably be around $5000.

I'm kinda struck on the C5, as it gives more sounds and still retains the wood keybed and the basic, but probably not as detailed, core of the C1.

Snazzy
Posted By: sullivang Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/21/09 12:21 PM
Regarding sustain, one or two bass notes in the acoustics are held for quite a while in the demo video, and I did not hear a natural decay/evolution - they sounded like early looped samples. (anyone else notice that?)

Overall it sounds excellent though. The electric pianos are very strong!!

Greg.
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/21/09 12:46 PM
Strange you say that, Greg, as I found the bass notes incredibly realistic with a sustain not often found on digitals and no evidence of a loop as far as my ears can tell.

I guess the only real way to tell is to listen while actually playing those notes, which I intend to do at the very first opportunity.

I thought the Rhodes sounds were very authentic, but again, the proof will be in the actual playing through a good set of speakers.

The acoustics also sounded very natural in the mid range, which is where a lot of digitals, including Roland's fancy V-Piano, sound synthetic and/or thin.

I also think they did a terrific job on the display, and having had experience with them on other instruments, I think it's safe to say they'll be highly visible in just about any kind of light.

Snazzy
Posted By: sullivang Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/21/09 12:57 PM
Snazzy,
I'm sure they're not *actually* looped, but the sustain seemed to stay on a rather bright agressive timbre for too long, as *if* it were looped. Yes - we'll have to actually play one - very hard to tell anything for sure from demos.

Listening to more recordings of the acoustics, they lack the exquisite clarity that some software sample libraries have. Still very nice though. (perhaps some fidelity is being lost due to web streaming compression)

Greg.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/21/09 03:36 PM
Originally Posted by ChrisA
That is not exactly the way I heard it on the video, You have to listen to all three videos in sequence.

What I heard was there are four different classes of piano sounds, (1) acoustic piano, (2) Synthesizers, (3) Rhodes type and (4) reed type. All of these in their original incarnation are "real" analog instruments.

My interpretation is that 1, 3 and 4 are sample based and the synth sounds are created synthetically. Each of the four clases use a different sound generation system

I just watched the videos all the way through and agree that the acoustic pianos are samples. They say the velocity layers are undetectable, but layers are the hardest thing for me to detect just sitting at a DP (give me precise control over velocity and it becomes a much easier job). The FM DPs seem to utilize a lobotomized DX FM synth (blea!). The Rohodes and reed types I believe are using some other type of synthesis, not samples.

The only parameter they seem to have any control over on the acoustic piano is hammer hardness, which to me could easily be globally controlled via the velocity curve, coupled maybe with a high frequency control. The string resonance can easily be a sample or samples too, so probably no modeling going on there. Which is OK I guess, I generally hate fake string resonance.

They make a big deal about the preamp bands for the piano samples. EQ is a big deal? It's OK I guess but we've been doing EQ on DSPs for like forever. We got that down over a generation ago, hardly something to shout from the rooftops.

Originally Posted by ChrisA
Then he goes non to talk about digital modeling of the amp and speaker and various stomp boxes. I assume this is the same "electronic modeling" we see in various DSP guitar amps. It's is not the same as modeling the sound of the piano. Those old e. pianos where a lot like electric guitars in that a lot of their tone was a result of the tube amps and speakers.

Agree, they are throwing the term "modeling" around rather indiscriminately (and to their advantage). It means something completely different for a digital acoustic piano then it does for an effects chain.

Originally Posted by ChrisA
The CP1 is a vey complex instrument. It looks like it can do a lot more than a Roland v-piano and sells for $1k less. Bt I doubt many acoustic piano plays will rush to it because 3/4 of the the CP1 does is Rhodes and synths and simulation of old tube based amps and built-in EQ.

Yes, the DP for me is a total let down. The focus here is on the other instruments, which seem to be very well done but to me are just icing on an otherwise mediocre cake. Oh well...
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/21/09 04:08 PM
Of course, all this boils down to whether you have the money to buy and enjoy these new products on their own merits, or just be content to attempt to criticize an instrument without actually playing it and listening in the proper environment and through a good set of speakers or headphones.

My friend Zeke has ordered one (a CP-1) and has also agreed to take my Yamaha CP-300 on trade if I like it, so I'm reserving my deepest opinions until I actually sit down and play it for an extended period of time.

So far I'm very impressed with the quality of the acoustic piano, which obviously is a combination of modeling and sampling and sounds as smooth as a used car salesman's spiel at the end of the month. wink

The CP-1 is cheaper, and lighter than the V-Piano, offers controller functions that Roland stupidly forgot to put on the V-Piano, and has incredibly useful and intuitive editing, rather than the long-winded approach by Roland...all these advantages are very obvious, without even playing the Yamaha.

Somehow, I have the feeling that it's going to take the breath- and nearly the monthly paychecks -away from the employees of rival manufacturers.

Time will tell.

Snazzy

Posted By: M. Doege Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/21/09 04:16 PM
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer

The C1 is cheaper, and lighter than the V-Piano


It's CP-1! Don't ruin this forum's Google indexability, Snazzy! smile
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/21/09 04:19 PM
Originally Posted by Martin C. Doege
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer

The C1 is cheaper, and lighter than the V-Piano


It's CP-1! Don't ruin this forum's Google indexability, Snazzy! smile


Martin, you're a stickler for accuracy, and I'm glad you are. Thank you. I have revised my posts accordingly.

Snazzy blush
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/21/09 04:35 PM
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
Of course, all this boils down to whether you have the money to buy and enjoy these new products on their own merits, or just be content to attempt to criticize an instrument without actually playing it and listening in the proper environment and through a good set of speakers or headphones.

My friend Zeke has ordered one (a CP-1) and has also agreed to take my Yamaha CP-300 on trade if I like it, so I'm reserving my deepest opinions until I actually sit down and play it for an extended period of time.

So far I'm very impressed with the quality of the acoustic piano, which obviously is a combination of modeling and sampling and sounds as smooth as a used car salesman's spiel at the end of the month. wink

Snazz, you're criticizing me for technically judging it only from a video, but you're loving all over it judging it only from a video. I'm not sure who's got the moral high ground here.

I really don't think it is "a combination of modeling and sampling" the DP seems to be pretty much pure sampling. The low note sustain sounds good (again, from the poor quality audio in the video) but I would need some time with it to really tell (and so would you).

Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
The CP-1 is cheaper, and lighter than the V-Piano, offers controller functions that Roland stupidly forgot to put on the V-Piano, and has incredibly useful and intuitive editing, rather than the long-winded approach by Roland...all these advantages are very obvious, without even playing the Yamaha.

Except for the fact that the V-Piano is a real modeled acoustic piano, where the Yamaha DP is a sample set. I can't comment on the editing though, not having touched either of them (and there being no manual yet for the Yamaha).
Posted By: Merlion Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/21/09 04:43 PM
This new CP series looks like Yamaha's version of the 'Korg SV1' with modelling technology, option for Natural Wood keys, VFD display among others... They all focus basically on sounds of the acoustic grand pianos and vintage electric pianos with those amps modelling. Anyone has done a comparison of they sound? I did try the SV1 which has great piano sounds and feel.

The SV1 and the CP50 are of similar price, would be interesting to compare those two models. On the higher end, it's great to finally see some competition to the Roland V-Piano. Looks like it would be another 'battle' coming for the Modelling technology as what we have now with the multi-level Sampling technology....

Posted By: ChrisA Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/21/09 05:21 PM
Quote

I really don't think it is "a combination of modeling and sampling" the DP seems to be pretty much pure sampling.


It's what they call "performance modeling", not physical modelling as in Pianoteq.

The difference is at which level the model operates. What they've done is recorded lots of samples. But not just velocity layers. They have samples for higher level harmonics and fundamental string sound. Then the model applies an envelope to each of the components.

In a pure sample system the user can't adjust parameters such as the hardness of the hammer felt but the CP-1 allows this. What they've done is modelled the performance of a soft felt by changing the weights of the samples. The performance model, models the ratio of various overtone over time. A physical model would compute what a string does after being deformed by a hammer impact.
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/21/09 05:24 PM
From the literature available:

"A unique new SCM (Spectral Component Modeling) tone generation system faithfully recreates the 17 selected sounds of acoustic and vintage electronic pianos and responds to the player's touch to provide more creative expression than ever before possible.

The Spectral Component Modeling system starts with a fundamentally different tone generation system than Yamaha has ever used before. By combining Sampling and Modeling technology, it optimizes tone generation for each instrument so that every nuance of the player's touch is translated into expressive tone."

From the above, it appears the acoustic piano is using modeling as well as sampling.(My italics).I believe Roland does this with some of their higher end pianos, so it's no real surprise Yamaha picked up on it...maybe they already had it, but decided to carry it further with the additional sounds.

I think Korg has the modeling devoted to only the Electronic pianos and organs. I played an SV-1 and it's alternate sounds are far better than the acoustic...reminds me a lot of the Nord instruments.

Dewster, I apologize if I seemed to be using a double standard...I'm just plain old excited about this product, as you can plainly see, and sometimes I type faster than I think. blush

I'm surprised you think it is solely sampling, considering you're one of the smarter people on this forum (except for me, of course wink )...don't you think Yamaha is just as capable of combining the two technologies (Modeling & Sampling) as well as Roland?

I'm almost afraid it's gonna sound better than my Avant Grand. eek

Snazzy





Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/21/09 11:56 PM
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
Dewster, I apologize if I seemed to be using a double standard...I'm just plain old excited about this product, as you can plainly see, and sometimes I type faster than I think. blush

I came across kind of harsh, very sorry Snazz.

Even the Yamaha guy said it was really hard to hear the sample layers switching, so I have to believe it's just sampling. The rest I would chalk up to market-speak. Were it modeling in the Pianoteq sense it would be a huge deal, they would have a bunch more parameters they could change, and I think they would at least talk about that in the videos. Those features being so conspicuously absent in the video tells me all they have is some vaguely new spin on sampling (itself probably not very earth-shattering).

*Yawn*

They are very good at creating buzz, I'll give them that. If I wanted some vintage EP sounds I'd be all over this, but the acoustic grands seem to be almost an afterthought. Meh.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/22/09 12:12 AM
Originally Posted by ChrisA
It's what they call "performance modeling", not physical modelling as in Pianoteq.

The difference is at which level the model operates. What they've done is recorded lots of samples. But not just velocity layers. They have samples for higher level harmonics and fundamental string sound. Then the model applies an envelope to each of the components.

In a pure sample system the user can't adjust parameters such as the hardness of the hammer felt but the CP-1 allows this. What they've done is modelled the performance of a soft felt by changing the weights of the samples. The performance model, models the ratio of various overtone over time. A physical model would compute what a string does after being deformed by a hammer impact.


Oh lord, if they would just do a single, close-miked sample of ~2 minutes or so of each note @ 12 layers (6 up/down) I'd be satisfied. I don't need parameter changes at all if the source piano is good enough and the sampling done competently enough.

Why can't they do that before they go crazy with the too short samples to accommodate all these pseudo modeling parameters?

I just don't understand the DP industry.
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/22/09 12:14 AM
Perhaps we'll have to agree to disagree, Dewster.

Spectral Component Modeling ...to me it really does seem to be a hybrid of sampling and physical modeling. It's obviously better than pure physical modeling, especially when it comes to complex tones like the Acoustic Piano and the Rhodes.

Pure physically modeling works great with very simple, static waveforms, like modeled tone-wheels etc. But with the hybrid, you have both working for you with accurate sampled waveforms, but with virtually no velocity jumps and much more control over key elements of the sound and how it responds to touch.

The bottom line is, it doesn't really matter much how they do it, as long as it works...and it sounds pretty darn good in the demos I've heard.

The real proof is in the playing...hopefully we won't have to wait too long to get one, as they might be a bit popular. I think it is far more useful an instrument than the V-Piano, but, that's my opinion. I also think the CP-5 might be the more stage/band practical of the bunch.

It sure is generating a lot of buzz on other forums.

Snazzy

Originally Posted by snazzyplayer

The acoustics also sounded very natural in the mid range, which is where a lot of digitals, including Roland's fancy V-Piano, sound synthetic and/or thin.


That's encouraging. The weak / synthetic mid range of the V-Piano in my studio has become really tiresome.

Lawrence
More information:

CP1 / CP5 / CP50 Brochure

and

CP1 Illustrated Guide

Bah! The links don't seem to work. Click on one of the links above, and then click on RESOURCES, and you'll see the links for the items.

Lawrence
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/22/09 01:17 AM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music



That's encouraging. The weak / synthetic mid range of the V-Piano in my studio has become really tiresome.

Lawrence


Melodialworks,

How much of a hassle it is to access the alternate sounds inside the V-Piano from it's own keyboard, or is that actually possible ?

Could you place another keyboard(controller) on top, and access them through MIDI?

What is their quality like?

I have a friend thinking about getting one.

Snazzy
Posted By: Kawai James Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/22/09 01:31 AM
The illustrated guide is beautiful.

Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
How much of a hassle it is to access the alternate sounds inside the V-Piano from it's own keyboard, or is that actually possible ?


When I play-tested a V-Piano earlier in the year, I was unable to select any non-piano voices. I believe I tried pressing every button, however I did not have access to the owner's manual, so it may perhaps requite a combination of button presses.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/22/09 01:35 AM
Originally Posted by KAWAI James

When I play-tested a V-Piano earlier in the year, I was unable to select any non-piano voices. I believe I tried pressing every button, however I did not have access to the owner's manual, so it may perhaps requite a combination of button presses.

Cheers,
James
x


Apparently it will play SMF with these internal sounds, so it may just be a matter of using another keyboard to access the appropriate channel/voice.

We couldn't access them from the panel either.

Snazzy
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer

How much of a hassle it is to access the alternate sounds inside the V-Piano from it's own keyboard, or is that actually possible ?

Could you place another keyboard(controller) on top, and access them through MIDI?

What is their quality like?


I realized that I had missed reading a few posts, and thus have edited my response below, to more appropriate answer one of your questions.]

It is not a hassle at all to access the various PIANO presets, or PIANO user presets. You can program four buttons for direct access, or use the dial. (There are only 24 presets - variations of the two models that the V-Piano contains.

Accessing the GM sounds is another matter. You can't accomplish this with button presses, but only by playing from a sequencer with appropriate patch changes. YUCK!!! (I have no idea how the GM sounds sound. Never bothered with them).

You could possibly place a keyboard on top, depending on what it was. (A personal matter, in terms of ergonomics).

Quality? (Of the piano sounds). The models play superbly (a strength of Roland's approach) but the mid range is not good (a weakness of Roland's approach).

I play the V-Piano everyday, and now really work to avoid the midrange. How sad is that? As always, it depends on your approach, style of playing, style of music etc., so your friend's milage may vary.

BTW, check your email account listed in you profile. (I've sent you an email).

Lawrence
Posted By: EssBrace Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/22/09 04:16 PM
I took early delivery of my V-Piano yesterday. Spent the evening playing. I agree the midrange does have a slightly artificial sound. I improved this by tweaking hammer hardness, cross resonance and tone colour but it is a characteristic of the piano.

What I don't think some of you are fully acknowledging is the playability of the thing as a musical instrument. Its response to velocity change is remarkable and very piano-like. If you play sampled based sounds all the time (as I have done for the last 15 years), you get used to a kind of disconnection between player and instrument...I really mean you get used to it...to the point where you can live quite happily with it most of the time. When you really get into the V-Piano you realise what a leaden, plodding experience samples often provide. The tonal change they exhibit just doesn't get close to the dynamism of a real instrument.

Perhaps until modeling really does capture the sonic authenticity of a grand piano then the future might just be hybrids of samples and models. There's no doubt in my mind that modeled sounds are the most playable and expressive but I agree at this moment in time samples provide the best sonic realism.

Just one or two more things from me...having watched the Yamaha videos about the CP1 etc...there can be no doubt that the acoustic pianos are basically sample-based probably with some additional modeled elements, but the basic tone generator replays samples of a Yamaha Grand. The electric pianos are entirely modeled but this has been successful for some years now with General Music pioneering this on their "Real Piano" series. They look like really nice instruments to me.

One final point...my Roland man tells me there are rumours of additional sounds and/or updates to the V-Piano for early 2010 which will be retrofittable via the USB port.

Cheers and Happy Christmas,

Steve
Posted By: ChrisA Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/22/09 08:43 PM
Originally Posted by EssBrace
...having watched the Yamaha videos about the CP1 etc...there can be no doubt that the acoustic pianos are basically sample-based probably with some additional modeled elements, but the basic tone generator replays samples of a Yamaha Grand. The electric pianos are entirely modeled


Are you lumping together the true electric pianos with the synthesizers?

A quote from Yamaha's web site implies the electric and acoustic use the same technology
Quote
A unique new SCM (Spectral Component Modeling) tone generation system faithfully recreates the 17 selected sounds of acoustic and vintage electronic pianos


The guy on the video said that the Synth sounds where completely model based. But I'm pretty sure, and it's backed up by the above quote, that elct. pianos are hybrid sample/model based like the acoustics.

Terminology may be an issue an "electric piano" is an instrument that uses real hammers to strike objects like strings and tines that produce tones that excite a pickup that feeds an amp. Very much like an electric guitar.

Synths on the other hand, even the first ones back in the 70's were always models. In the beginning they used analog components but never physical hammers or strings.

The current generation of Yamaha DPs play sample synth sounds. It looks like the CP1 goes back to the old way
Posted By: Kawai James Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/22/09 09:59 PM
Originally Posted by EssBrace
One final point...my Roland man tells me there are rumours of additional sounds and/or updates to the V-Piano for early 2010 which will be retrofittable via the USB port.


Yes, I had intended to make this very point earlier. Because the V-Piano is entirely software based, it is highly like that Roland will release updates to improve the realism of the modelling, just as we have seen with Pianoteq. Indeed, I also suspect that electric piano (and possibly other modelled instruments) sounds will also become available, ideally as a free download.

Cheers,
James
x
As a V-Piano owner, I certainly hope that there will be updates.

My first wish would be for improved, i.e. more realism in the existing two models. Other models can be added after that. The mid range deficiencies must be addressed, in my opinion.

We'll see what happens. Perhaps something will be announced at NAMM?

Lawrence
Posted By: sullivang Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/26/09 09:41 PM
A good example of the "looped" sound in the CP1 is the S6 Grand demo recording here: http://www.yamahasynth.com/products/stage_pianos/cp1/

Listen to the bass note that is held at the end - to me it sounds like there is a lack of natural evolution to the sound.

Greg.
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/26/09 09:54 PM
My goodness that CP-1 sounds some good! I have to restrain myself, and actually wait to play one before I give my whole opinion.

I'm not getting fooled like I did with the V-Piano...I thought it was my next acquisition....till I played it.

I somehow feel this new Yammie will be the one to beat...the V-Piano only had a temporary visit to the top of the pile.

I've got one great consolation...my CP-300 is an awesome stage piano. and I'd be glad to stay with it if these newcomers aren't to my liking.

Snazzy

Well, the V-Piano is the best digital piano I've every played, but it's still not "the one" in terms of sound, although certainly it makes the grade in terms of playability.

Time will tell if the CP1 will make the grade in both departments.

Lawrence
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/26/09 10:16 PM
The Yamaha CP-1 has some stiff competition, in my opinion, both against the V-Piano (if they upgrade it and fix the questionable mid-range) and the new Korg SV-1.

It also has to beat my Yamaha CP-300 which has excellent pianos, strings, organs etc. and a lovely action...not to mention the awesome internal speaker system and midi controller capabilities. It also weighs about the same as the CP-1, which does not have on-board speakers.

Don't take my dismissal as a put-down of the V-Piano, Lawrence...I'm very fussy like you are, and my next instrument is competing against an instrument I already love (CP-300) and the incredible Avant Grand, which obliterates pretty well everything I've ever played, including my old Steinway B, which is one of the best pianos I've owned...too bad it goes out of tune like all acoustics. frown

Snazzy

Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/26/09 10:47 PM
Mark my words - and I sincerely hope I'm wrong - the CP-1 (indeed this whole product line) will be a disappointment to anyone expecting the next major step in acoustic DP sound realism. If you want an EP, great, but the acoustic piano stuff strikes me as more of an afterthought than anything else.

When are we going to get an open-source friendly DP? Something with enough processor and storage to do real DP sounds? Then just let the open-source community do the software. I'm tired of waiting on the DP manufacturers to catch up with the rest of the modern world.
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/26/09 11:15 PM
I hope you're wrong, dewster.

These CP's seem very good in the mi-range, where 90% of the Roland digital pianos are very thin.

It's like they sampled the same acoustic piano, but with progressively more expensive microphones, for each and every instrument they make that has a piano sound in it.

Even my recently sold Roland E-80 had that characteristic weakness in the mids on both it's main pianos.

It's a shame, because a lot of playing is done in the middle of the piano.

My 20 year old HP-1700 has great mids, but back then they used Structured Adaptive Synthesis which preceded their ventures into sample based pianos.

That's why I found it odd that the V-Piano sounded synthetic in the mids...one would hope they should be able to fix that with OS upgrades.

The CP-1 is using both sampling and modeling for the acoustic pianos, giving them a major edge, in my opinion, and, from what I've been hearing, the mids are very good because of it.

The mid-range on my Avant Grand, and CP-300 and P-85 is very good; again, very characteristic of nearly all Yamaha digitals, and that's without the assistance of modeling, which should only make these new CP's even better.

I hope they are very good...I'd hate to waste my money on frivolous things like food and shelter. wink

Snazzy
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer

Don't take my dismissal as a put-down of the V-Piano, Lawrence...I'm very fussy like you are, and my next instrument is competing against an instrument I already love (CP-300) and the incredible Avant Grand, which obliterates pretty well everything I've ever played, including my old Steinway B, which is one of the best pianos I've owned...too bad it goes out of tune like all acoustics. frown


Snazzy -

No. I unfortunately agree with you. The mids are a big problem. I've tweaked, and improved a bit, but the hollow, synthetic character is still there - all the worse since the ranges above and below are quite acceptable.

I would probably be happy with the N3 (or N2) except for two things:

(1) the price is WAY out of my range - the reality of becoming a pensioner in just over a year is, well, a reality!

(2) I want an instrument that I can record with, I guess without resorting to mics. I suspect that the N3's wonderfulness doesn't translate well to recording from the audio outputs.

I haven't played an N3 / N2 yet, and probably should - especially in comparison to the CP1.

I'm worried about the S6 sample in the CP1. On other forums (like SNinety.com) the S6 in the S90XS is trashed, big time. Apparently they are using samples from the same sampling session for the S6B in the CP1, although the sample will be much larger, and of course, there will be the modeling stuff.

I (perhaps foolishly) keep telling my wife - "this is the last keyboard, for a long time" . . . New Years resolution - stop lying to the wife . . .

Still, if the solution to the V-Piano means trading it for a CP1, I will be prepared to do it. I will, of course, first wait to see what the (possible) OS update brings.

Lawrence
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/27/09 04:55 AM
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
I hope you're wrong, dewster.


Me too. Believe me, if I could find something - anything - to hang my hopes on, I would.

Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
That's why I found it odd that the V-Piano sounded synthetic in the mids...one would hope they should be able to fix that with OS upgrades.


I see the V-Piano as a first generation Pianoteq - an oddity that might turn into something real if they put a ton more work into it. And I'll be damned if I'm going to pin my fragile hopes to software upgrades from the DP industry. Those guys will let you down every time.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/27/09 05:03 AM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
I unfortunately agree with you. The mids are a big problem. I've tweaked, and improved a bit, but the hollow, synthetic character is still there - all the worse since the ranges above and below are quite acceptable.

All kidding aside, my heart goes out to you.

Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
I want an instrument that I can record with, I guess without resorting to mics.

Abandon hope, all ye who enter here...

Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
I (perhaps foolishly) keep telling my wife - "this is the last keyboard, for a long time" . . . New Years resolution - stop lying to the wife . . .

Still, if the solution to the V-Piano means trading it for a CP1, I will be prepared to do it. I will, of course, first wait to see what the (possible) OS update brings.

Do like I'm doing and just swear off DPs until they make something real. Buy Pianoteq (or whatever floats your boat sound-wise) and bide your time. Life's way too short to be playing a fool's game.
Posted By: limavady Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/27/09 07:11 AM
At risk of bringing the converstion down a notch can someone tell me if the CP-50 will have the same piano sound(s) as the CP1. From a brief look at the decription (andys music) it looks like it does. Am i dreaming or is that too good to be true because the price is so radically different. i mean with a 20% off coupon you might be able to get the CP50 for $1360. I know there has to be features on the CP1 that justify the relative price but still...to answer my own question though now that i look a bit at the specs it does look like you'll be getting '6 selected' piano sounds on the cp50....11 on the cp5 and then 17 on the cp1. Of course the cp50 doesn't have the wooden or same quality of graded touch that both the other models do and i'm sure there's more but still...have to admit (and especially if you get the 20% off on any of these it would be hard not to at least go for the mid-priced model)
Posted By: sullivang Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/27/09 11:03 AM
Limavady,
There is some doubt as to whether the CP1 & CP5 actually have graded actions or not - they are wooden, but may not be graded. If so, this results in the peculiar situation of the cheapest model in the group having one aspect of the keyboard that is superior to the others.

Does anyone know for certain whether the CP1 & CP5 have graded actions or not?

Greg.
Posted By: Kawai James Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/27/09 12:14 PM
sullivang, I think it's safe to assume that the new 'NW Stage' action will be graded. Indeed, it may well be an improvement on the current GH3/NW action used in the CLP-3xx series.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: sullivang Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/27/09 01:10 PM
James,
I guess you're probably right. I notice that Yamaha sort of drop the term "graded" in the higher-end models that have the NW action, because it's obviously assumed knowledge that it is graded. Maybe it's the same situation with the NW-Stage action.

Thanks,
Greg.
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/27/09 03:35 PM
Originally Posted by dewster


Do like I'm doing and just swear off DPs until they make something real. Buy Pianoteq (or whatever floats your boat sound-wise) and bide your time. Life's way too short to be playing a fool's game.


One could also look at it thus; Swear off acoustic pianos until they make something maintenance free, with alternate sound like Rhodes, Wurly, Pipe Organ, Strings, plus, ease of tuning to other instruments, easy transposition, easy amplification.

Most importantly, "maintenance free" would mean no need of tuning.

I agree about life being "too short to be playing a fool's game", but in the context of wasting one's time with acoustic pianos...dinosaurs, all of them! Their bones will eventually be scattered about the dump-sites of the nations, with only the most special and historied instruments winding up in museums next to the pterodactyl and tyrannosaurus. wink

Acoustic pianos remind me of the old Underwood manual typewriters....cool, until you have to replace a ribbon, or get parts.....still, there are those who love them.

Snazzy
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/27/09 05:00 PM
Originally Posted by limavady
At risk of bringing the converstion down a notch

Ha ha! And I apologize for being such a negative vibe merchant.

Originally Posted by limavady
... with a 20% off coupon you might be able to get the CP50 for $1360 ... have to admit (and especially if you get the 20% off on any of these it would be hard not to at least go for the mid-priced model)

I agree. Sight unseen (a huge unknown) if I HAD to buy either the P155 or CP50 at this point, I'd probably pony up the extra dough and go with the CP50 - but only if the seller had a liberal return policy.

Sure would be nice to see a manual for the CP50.

KAWAI James, can you use your inside connections to light a fire under your counterparts at Yamaha ? ;-)
Posted By: Glenn NK Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/27/09 07:15 PM
I looked carefully at Yamaha's site, and kept seeing smoke and mirrors (sales speak).

If the CP's were truly modeled the site would say so (and not just cast out hints). Surely they realize that the future is not with samples, no matter how they are manipulated.

However, the problem with physical modeling is that the user is faced with too many variables that affect each other. As a Pianoteq user for well over a year, I'm still on a steep learning curve. I doubt that many DP users are interested in going through this, and the DP makers know this.

Glenn
Originally Posted by dewster

Do like I'm doing and just swear off DPs until they make something real. Buy Pianoteq (or whatever floats your boat sound-wise) and bide your time. Life's way too short to be playing a fool's game.


Ouch.

You have it backwards, actually. I've sworn off of a software solution. I actually own Pianoteq (was a beta tester for the lastest version) as well as tons of samples set.

Lawrence

Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/27/09 09:01 PM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
Originally Posted by dewster

Do like I'm doing and just swear off DPs until they make something real. Buy Pianoteq (or whatever floats your boat sound-wise) and bide your time. Life's way too short to be playing a fool's game.


Ouch.

You have it backwards, actually. I've sworn off of a software solution. I actually own Pianoteq (was a beta tester for the lastest version) as well as tons of samples set.

Lawrence



My apologies, I wasn't trying to call you a fool but I guess my post could be read that way.

I'm curious, what got you in the position of being beta tester for Pianoteq all those piano samples? What do you think of v3.5?
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/27/09 09:15 PM
Originally Posted by Glenn NK
I looked carefully at Yamaha's site, and kept seeing smoke and mirrors (sales speak).

If the CP's were truly modeled the site would say so (and not just cast out hints). Surely they realize that the future is not with samples, no matter how they are manipulated.

I agree. The most technical wording I've found is from the product line brochure:

Overview of SCM (Spectral Component Modeling)
The Spectral Component Modeling system starts with a fundamentally different tone generation system than Yamaha has ever used before. This system allows physical components of the instrument (hardness of the hammers, resonance of the sound board, striking position of the hammers) to be modeled. It also uses a complete different method of playback than normal sampling technology. Rather than multi-velocity layers of samples, SCM uses granular parametric data so every nuance of the player’s touch is translated into expressive tone.


My guess is they are using fine-grained frequency bands, like FFT or DCS, to encode the samples. Then they record stuff like harder hammers and the like, and adjust the envelope of frequency bands to simulate this. Essentially it is still just a sample playback system.

Originally Posted by Glenn NK
However, the problem with physical modeling is that the user is faced with too many variables that affect each other. As a Pianoteq user for well over a year, I'm still on a steep learning curve. I doubt that many DP users are interested in going through this, and the DP makers know this.

I think they could make a dumbed-down interface of some sort, or rely on totally brain-dead things like presets.
Posted By: Glenn NK Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/27/09 09:54 PM
Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by Glenn NK
However, the problem with physical modeling is that the user is faced with too many variables that affect each other. As a Pianoteq user for well over a year, I'm still on a steep learning curve. I doubt that many DP users are interested in going through this, and the DP makers know this.

I think they could make a dumbed-down interface of some sort, or rely on totally brain-dead things like presets.


The problem still remains with presets - who will not be tempted to "improve" them?

An example - an fxp posted during beta testing is so badly screwed up, that my guess is that the fellow was unknowingly compensating for his poor sound system.

On the other hand, a user recently developed an fxp of a Steinway D (with major changes in tuning among others) and is actually quite good (he knows what he's doing and takes the time to do it). It's quite easy to give up on PT, and conclude that it doesn't work (while waiting in vain for the perfect solution to come from the DP makers).

Pianoteq requires some knowledge of the physics of the acoustic piano, not something that most of us are interested in or willing to learn about.

Buying the latest Yamaha/Korg/Roland/Kawai/whatever DP is much easier.

Glenn
Originally Posted by dewster
[quote=Melodialworks Music][quote=dewster]

My apologies, I wasn't trying to call you a fool but I guess my post could be read that way.

I'm curious, what got you in the position of being beta tester for Pianoteq all those piano samples? What do you think of v3.5?


In that case, no offense taken!

Just to clarify, I was a beta tester for Pianoteq 3.5 Pro. I was invited to be part of the beta test program. Not actually sure why, but I suspect due to my reputation of constantly seeking "the one".

I've also beta tested another (sampled) piano.

Beta testing is hard work, and you have to be able to put a lot of time into it.

Lawrence
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/28/09 02:20 AM
Originally Posted by Glenn NK
The problem still remains with presets - who will not be tempted to "improve" them?

<snip>

It's quite easy to give up on PT, and conclude that it doesn't work (while waiting in vain for the perfect solution to come from the DP makers).

The Pianoteq presets sound so much better than anything I've heard on any DP (not that I've demoed all DPs by any means) - no looping, no stretching, no layer switching, tons of sympathetic resonance, nice long rich decays. I've played around with the parameters somewhat, mainly just to see what they do, but the presets are so far and away better when compared to DPs that I find it difficult to complain. Maybe that would change if I used it more, but nothing is really hitting me in the face when I use it (unlike every DP I've spent quality time with).

Originally Posted by Glenn NK
Pianoteq requires some knowledge of the physics of the acoustic piano, not something that most of us are interested in or willing to learn about.

Oh, it's really nice to know you can deep-dive if some minor thing is driving you crazy. This is why I buy name-brand PC motherboards (Gigabyte, ASUS) with full-featured BIOS.

Originally Posted by Glenn NK
Buying the latest Yamaha/Korg/Roland/Kawai/whatever DP is much easier.

But there's that little "waiting in vain" part you mentioned above that makes that proposition rather dicey. Yamaha is doing it's level best to rip my heart out with vague press releases regarding their latest DP line. I barely survived the V-Piano publicity wave (& need a T-shirt proclaiming that).
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/28/09 02:33 AM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
Just to clarify, I was a beta tester for Pianoteq 3.5 Pro. I was invited to be part of the beta test program. Not actually sure why, but I suspect due to my reputation of constantly seeking "the one".

So what did you think of it? Or are you not at liberty to say? Do they make you sign some kind of NDA or similar?

Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
I've also beta tested another (sampled) piano.

Wow, you get around! BTW, have you tried the VintAudio C7 sample? I'd be very interested how that measured up to your other experiences.
Posted By: Dave Ferris Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/28/09 06:17 AM
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Posted By: genemusic111 Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/28/09 07:06 AM
Thanks for sharing! Here's some video from the Yamaha website: http://www.yamahasynth.com/products/stage_pianos
Posted By: Kawai James Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/28/09 07:13 AM
Nord piano?

I like the sound of that!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NXRLDdyn7A

http://www.nordkeyboards.com/main.asp?tm=Products&clpm=Nord_Piano

NAMM 2010 will surely be keyboard heaven!

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/28/09 04:46 PM
Originally Posted by Dave Ferris
I've gotten many years gig-mileage out of the P120 but the time has come (actually about 3 yrs. ago) to get something new and more inspiring (although inspiring and DPs are mutually exclusive terms in my musical world smile ). I just haven't found anything lightweight that I think is a definite step up.

This is pretty much where I am too.

Originally Posted by Dave Ferris
I did get to check out the Korg SV-1 the other day.

I can't get past that "warm" tube staring me in the face. A complete and utter turnoff.

Originally Posted by Dave Ferris
Don't mean to derail but it's obvious the Korg, CP50 and new Nord piano (also previewing at NAMM) will be head to head competitors in that sub 2K gigging pianist market.

All of the new offerings so far cater more to the gigging band/rock pianist and less to the gigging solo/classical pianist. The focus is on the EPs, rather than the acoustic pianos, which is exactly the opposite of what I'm in the market for.
Posted By: Dave Ferris Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/28/09 06:01 PM
.
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/28/09 06:58 PM
I believe the trend is towards satisfying the solo player, with the focus lately being on better acoustic piano replication, rather than Rhodes, Tonewheels etc.

The V-Piano is focused on acoustic replication, as is the CP-1. The lower CP-5 and CP-50 are still much like the old CP-300.

The Avant Grand is on a whole other level, but again, it's main focus to is to replicate the acoustic piano experience using a digital.

It's about time.

Snazzy

Does the Avant Grand use the same method(s) of generating the tone as the AP part of the CP1? I'm confused on this point. If the AG is supposed to be the best, and the CP1 is supposed to be the best, then shouldn't they use the same engine? I'm thinking that the AG is strictly samples, whereas the CP1 is samples + modelling, but perhaps I've got it wrong.

I've tried to arrange to play the AG, but they are not yet available in my area. I have one dealer that is going to try to find out tomorrow. (The local head office of Yamaha is closed today . . . ). Apparently they "decide" which dealers will get it in, etc. Interesting.

I'm really enjoying this tread.

Lawrence
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/28/09 09:01 PM
Th Yamaha site says "Spatial Acoustic Sampling", so one would tend to believe it is all sampling, with no modeling involved.

The CP-1, however, seems to involve sampling and modeling for acoustic and electric pianos, but appears to use an FM tone generator for the DX-type EP.

Whatever they used, the Avant Grand sounds pretty darn good, although, I must say, the tactile feedback sure adds to the realism.

I played both my Steinway B and the Avant Grand...yes, you could probably tell the difference...maybe, but the experience is close enough for all but the hard core purist.

It's not a whole lot unlike trying two different acoustics.

I don't regret for one second buying the Avant Grand...it has soul. Only other keyboard that gives me the same kind of feeling, is my Hammond B-3.

Snazzy

Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/28/09 09:17 PM
Originally Posted by KAWAI James
Nord piano?

I like the sound of that!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NXRLDdyn7A

http://www.nordkeyboards.com/main.asp?tm=Products&clpm=Nord_Piano

NAMM 2010 will surely be keyboard heaven!

Thanks for those links!

I like the direction NORD is heading in, with uploadable sample sets, sympathetic resonance simulation, etc. I like the way the length of the keyboard is kept to a minimum, but the knobs look like they would snap off in a second - couldn't they recess the entire panel more?

But the deal-breaker? 512MB flash sample memory. 512MB? Come on! People everywhere are THROWING OUT thumb drives that small!

Why is it when I see promos for brand spankin' new DPs I get the feeling I somehow woke up a decade ago?
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
Th Yamaha site says "Spatial Acoustic Sampling", so one would tend to believe it is all sampling, with no modeling involved.


Avant Grand = Spatial Acoustic Sampling

CP1 = Spectral Component Modeling

No wonder I was confused! (I wonder why they didn't use Spectral Component Modeling in the Avant Grand)?

Lawrence

PS - have you tried recording the Avant Grand from the audio outputs? Is all of the magic lost?
Posted By: Kawai James Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/28/09 11:31 PM
Originally Posted by dewster
...but the knobs look like they would snap off in a second - couldn't they recess the entire panel more?


My experience of Nord instruments is that they are very solidly built. As such, I think it's rather unlikely that any knobs or buttons will snap off.

Originally Posted by dewster
But the deal-breaker? 512MB flash sample memory. 512MB? Come on! People everywhere are THROWING OUT thumb drives that small!


Maybe so, however as another forum member mentioned in a previous thread, flash memory used for storage is generally slow, while flash memory used within a musical instrument needs to offer near real-time access speeds, and is therefore more expensive.

It will be interesting to see where Clavia position the Nord Piano within the market place. Their Nord Stage is already an extremely popular board among stage musicians, thus I am curious as to how the two models will differentiate themselves. There will inevitably be a degree of overlap, however I get the impression that the Nord Piano is geared more towards classical piano players, hence the stripped down control panel and three pedal accessory.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/28/09 11:44 PM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music


PS - have you tried recording the Avant Grand from the audio outputs? Is all of the magic lost?


Just did the one recording when my acoustic aficionado buddy, Lowell was testing it out...just used the on-board recorder.

I did not buy it for recording...it's entirely for recreational playing.

Of course, the tactile bit would be lost in recording, but, again, my reason for buying it was to replace my Steinway B.

I never use headphones, as I have no need to worry about neighbours...nearest one is 3 miles away.

Snazzy
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/28/09 11:56 PM
Originally Posted by KAWAI James
My experience of Nord instruments is that they are very solidly built. As such, I think it's rather unlikely that any knobs or buttons will snap off.

No doubt they are solidly built, but those knobs look like they are really hanging out there. On Clavia's main page they have a side photo of it and the panel actually looks like it is protruding, not recessed. You would need a hard case to transport that baby. It's little things like that that drive me crazy.

Originally Posted by KAWAI James
Originally Posted by dewster
But the deal-breaker? 512MB flash sample memory. 512MB? Come on! People everywhere are THROWING OUT thumb drives that small!

Maybe so, however another member mentioned in a previous thread, flash memory used for storage is generally slow, while flash memory used within a musical instrument needs to offer near real-time access speeds.

Even fairly slow flash has sufficient bandwidth to pump out plenty of polyphony. The average cell phone would probably make a better DP brain than what those guys are building now.

And James, no disrespect, but don't trust posts made here, by me or anyone - talk to your EEs! I'd die to be as close to the synthesis industry as you are, please utilize that as much as you can. The rest of us will have to be content with the role of hearsay monger.

Seriously, talk to your EEs and prove me wrong, I'd be very content to be completely wrong here (for technical reasons) - it would go a long way to explaining the backward DP world I find myself living in.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/29/09 12:00 AM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music

Avant Grand = Spatial Acoustic Sampling
CP1 = Spectral Component Modeling

Oooh! Oooh! Can I play too?

Spectral Acoustic Sampling
Spatial Component Modeling
Spatial Acoustic Modeling
Spectral Component Sampling
Spatial Component Sampling
Spectral Acoustic Modeling

Hey, this is easy! Much easier than actual engineering...
Posted By: M. Doege Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/29/09 12:25 AM
Originally Posted by dewster

Spectral Acoustic Sampling
Spatial Component Modeling
Spatial Acoustic Modeling
Spectral Component Sampling
Spatial Component Sampling
Spectral Acoustic Modeling


Sounds like those digital piano companies have hired the ex-writers of Star Trek: Voyager... wink
Posted By: Kawai James Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/29/09 12:29 AM
Originally Posted by dewster
You would need a hard case to transport that baby.


Not necessarily, I believe it depends on the needs of the player.

May I ask what kind of transportation you have in mind?

I cycle to band practises with a Nord Electro strapped to my back (admittedly, only half the weight of the Nord Piano, but even so...), while I'm sure most performers will be content to place their piano in the boot or along the back seat of a car.

I expect Clavia will offer a dedicated bag or case for more extensive transportation (touring bands for example), however this is no different from every other stage piano/keyboard that I am aware of.

Cheers,
James
x
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer

Just did the one recording when my acoustic aficionado buddy, Lowell was testing it out...just used the on-board recorder.
Snazzy


And? What were your impressions of that recording? Stereo, I assume?

Lawrence
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/29/09 01:16 AM
Hi Lawrence,

I just recorded Lowell as he played, and played it back through the pianos speakers...it's a midi recording. Sounded great. Like a player piano, I guess. I think it's still on the piano as I did no recording afterwards. I'm more of a live player...that's how I worked for years; backing people up.

No luck finding one to try?

Snazzy
Posted By: surgtech Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/29/09 01:37 AM
Do you know how much this new Nord will cost?
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer

No luck finding one to try?


It's not yet available in my area. I guess my pennies are safe for a while longer!

(I'm also very interested in the CP1. A completely differently animal. And a completely different price point! No doubt more practical for recording. Another advantage is - less likely to result in divorce!)

Lawrence
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/29/09 01:56 AM
I see, Lawrence...yes, I was given the ultimatum a few years ago..."me or the keyboards"...nice lady...sometimes I even miss her. wink

I'm considering the CP-1 or CP-5 to replace my CP-300.

You know, it's strange, but I still love playing my P-85; something about it's simplicity that I liked ever since I first played one. I have mine running into a set of Logitech Z-2300 speakers. I'm planning on another set for the CP-1/CP-5 if I get one. I had a Yamaha Stagepas 300 home for a few days, and I still prefer the Logitechs....more bottom, and every bit as loud and clean. No effects, but you don't need them when keyboards today have their own built in.

Hope you get to try an Avant Grand...my friend Zeke has a CP-1 on order, but it won't arrive till sometime next month at the earliest. Sure looks/sounds like a winner on the demos, but the real test is a good couple of hours playing it.

Snazzy
Posted By: Kawai James Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/29/09 01:59 AM
Originally Posted by surgtech
Do you know how much this new Nord will cost?


I believe the pricing and availability is still TBA.

However, the Nord Stage 88 EX is currently 2,800 Euros (Thomann.de), so I expect the Nord Piano will be around the same price - if not less.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: surgtech Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/29/09 02:30 AM
===No doubt more practical for recording.===

What do you mean by this?
Originally Posted by surgtech
===No doubt more practical for recording.===

What do you mean by this?


The CP1 is in stereo, and has balanced outputs. The Avant is four channel, I believe, spread across 14 speakers - with line outs (unbalanced).

I'm not interested in recording with mics, but recording the output directly - dry - and then adding studio quality reverb. (I would first record using MIDI and then convert to audio.

I suspect that the CP1 output would translate more appropriately, since it is designed for stereo output in the first place, whereas the Avant is not. (I see the Avant as a "live" instrument). Of course recording with mics would change all of this, but this is not a path I would want to take at this point in time.

Lawrence
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/29/09 04:22 AM
Originally Posted by KAWAI James
I expect Clavia will offer a dedicated bag or case for more extensive transportation (touring bands for example), however this is no different from every other stage piano/keyboard that I am aware of.

Our P120 doesn't have any knobs sticking out in space just waiting to be snapped off, so I can throw it in an inexpensive generic padded case. Those NORD knobs look like a terrible transportation accident waiting to happen.

Not that it will happen to me, however. 1/2 GB just isn't enough to be taken seriously as a ROMpler. Wake me up when someone puts at least 4 GB in something with hammer action keys. By my calculations that will be around NAMM 2020 (at the earliest). DP years are like the opposite of dog years.
Posted By: Dave Ferris Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/29/09 05:02 AM
.
Posted By: Glenn NK Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/29/09 07:05 AM
Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music

Avant Grand = Spatial Acoustic Sampling
CP1 = Spectral Component Modeling

Oooh! Oooh! Can I play too?

Spectral Acoustic Sampling
Spatial Component Modeling
Spatial Acoustic Modeling
Spectral Component Sampling
Spatial Component Sampling
Spectral Acoustic Modeling

Hey, this is easy! Much easier than actual engineering...


It still sounds more like S.B.S. to me.
Posted By: Kawai James Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/29/09 07:46 AM
Dave Ferris, I am inclined to agree - the Fatar action is arguably the only thing holding the Nord Stage back.

I wonder if the Nord Piano will use a new, improved action?

Cheers,
James
x
Originally Posted by dewster

So what did you think of it? (Pianoteq 3.5 Pro) Or are you not at liberty to say? Do they make you sign some kind of NDA or similar?

BTW, have you tried the VintAudio C7 sample? I'd be very interested how that measured up to your other experiences.


Yes, signing a NDA is standard practice, but of course is only applicable during the beta cycle. PT 3.5 and PTP 3.5 is a substantial improvement over version 3. One thing that makes a BIG difference is the controller that you are using. For example, during the beta period I was using the Yamaha Motif XS8 as a controller. Not at all happy with the results. However, when I try it now, using V-Piano as a controller, the results are quite improved. There are 22 parameters to adjust, and with the Pro version, they can be adjusted on a per note basis. Hover pop ups really help to guide you as to what the parameter does. The sound is very pure, but is very playable WITH AN APPROPRIATE CONTROLLER. (The mid range lacks accuracy, but is much better than V-Piano's, which shows that it can be done, but still needs work). Like V-Piano, it sounds like a modeled piano, not a Steinway, or Yamaha etc. (Vanilla).

I likey have played the VintAudio C7 sample, but don't have any specific recollection.

Lawrence
Posted By: Psalm23 Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/29/09 02:45 PM
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
I see, Lawrence...yes, I was given the ultimatum a few years ago..."me or the keyboards"...nice lady...sometimes I even miss her. wink

I'm considering the CP-1 or CP-5 to replace my CP-300.


Snazzy


I would be very interested to review the CP5 as compared to my Roland RD700GX. I suspect that Roland will counter next year with a new RD model that incorporates the V technology.
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/29/09 03:04 PM
Originally Posted by KAWAI James
Dave Ferris, I am inclined to agree - the Fatar action is arguably the only thing holding the Nord Stage back.


It is my understanding that Korg has been using Fatar actions for some time now...previous to that, they used various Yamaha actions around the time they were rescued by the latter.

There is supposedly a Fatar semi-weighted action in my Korg PA2XPro that I can't really warm up to at all.

I do remember having a Korg SG-1D Piano in the studio for awhile, and I thought the action was almost identical to my Yamaha KX-88 controller.

You are someone who is in the know here on the forum...what are your thoughts about Fatar actions in general?

Snazzy
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/29/09 03:15 PM
Originally Posted by Psalm23
I would be very interested to review the CP5 as compared to my Roland RD700GX. I suspect that Roland will counter next year with a new RD model that incorporates the V technology.


I'm probably going to go for the CP-5, although I am very interested trying the CP-1.

I suspect Roland will offer a similar setup on their new pianos...most likely a combination of sampling and modeling, which seems to me to be the most effective way of producing piano tones.

It reminds me of when synths changed to sample plus synthesis i.e. the Korg DW-6000/8000, Roland's D-50, and Yamaha's SY-77/99 where the most difficult part to make real, the attack portion of a note, was handled by a sample...the body still used synthesis.

Personally I don't really care how they do it, but I think sampling plus modeling is the best choice so far.

Snazzy
Originally Posted by Psalm23

I would be very interested to review the CP5 as compared to my Roland RD700GX. I suspect that Roland will counter next year with a new RD model that incorporates the V technology.


I would say that for sure you will see this. Roland had already replaced the HP-207 (etc.?) with a newer model that uses a combination of sampling and V-Piano technology.

I predict that eventually modeling will replace sampling entirely.
Posted By: Glenn NK Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/29/09 08:11 PM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
I predict that eventually modeling will replace sampling entirely.


Does this mean you'll be coming back to the Pianoteq fold? wink

And yes, the future is not with samples, it's with modeling.

Glenn
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/29/09 09:15 PM
The future is with sampling and modeling...Roland will go the same way as Yamaha with this.

Snazzy

Originally Posted by Glenn NK

Does this mean you'll be coming back to the Pianoteq fold?


Glenn -

With V-Piano as a controller, it's on the possibility list.

Lawrence
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
The future is with sampling and modeling...Roland will go the same way as Yamaha with this.


Snazzy -

Makes me wonder why I invested in V-Piano.

Lawrence
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/30/09 03:55 AM
Lawrence,

I think it's very hard to get the mid-range as realistic as they would like with modeling only...Pianoteq suffers from the same issues. My friend Zeke has it in his studio, and neither of us like it all that much.

Maybe Roland will go with using both technologies, at least for the near future...didn't someone already mention that the highest end models are using both sampling and modeling? Hey! It was you! wink

I'm hoping the CP-5 isn't going to be much less than the CP-1 in the acoustic piano sound dept...I'd like to have the additional sounds.

Snazzy
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer

Maybe Roland will go with using both technologies, at least for the near future...didn't someone already mention that the highest end models are using both sampling and modeling? Hey! It was you! wink


Snazzy -

Don't quote me on that! I went back to check the source, and it's actually not clear re: the HP-307. Perhaps if I could read Japanese it would be more clear!

Anyway, if the HP-307 is in fact using samples + modeling, I would find that to be very interesting. Wouldn't it be rather an admission of some sort on Roland's part? Anyway, as I said, this needs to be confirmed. I'll track down the link to the original thread . . .

Lawrence

EDIT: here is the thread:
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb...and%20HP-307%20using%20sampling%20o.html
Posted By: Daniel J. Shapira Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/30/09 04:49 AM
Kawai's "harmonic imaging", is to my understanding, part modeling and part sampling. Would Yamaha's system be similar?
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/30/09 05:05 AM
But when will someone finally give us SuperNATURAL Harmonic Spatial Acoustic Spectral Component Imaging?

Come on, we're dying out here...
Posted By: Glenn NK Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/30/09 06:15 AM
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
Lawrence,

I think it's very hard to get the mid-range as realistic as they would like with modeling only...Pianoteq suffers from the same issues. My friend Zeke has it in his studio, and neither of us like it all that much.
Snazzy


Which is interesting because most of us that use Pianoteq exclusively tend to ask for a more realistic deep bass (more of a growling sound at ff and fff), and are quite satisfied with the midrange right up to the top.

The longer the string, the more harmonics it can develop; wire wound strings introduce another complex dimension in partials which requires computing power beyond what many gigging musicians can use practically (notebooks).

The major problem (I've pointed out here and on the Pianoteq forum) is that the learning curve is really quite steep, and without a good knowledge of the physics of a piano, AND a good sound system, adjusting for one's own sound is difficult and quite a bit of a moving target.

Also, the sound engine is regularly being updated; judging it based on versions 2.3 or 3.0 is misleading.

Glenn
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/30/09 07:00 AM
Originally Posted by Glenn NK


Which is interesting because most of us that use Pianoteq exclusively tend to ask for a more realistic deep bass (more of a growling sound at ff and fff), and are quite satisfied with the midrange right up to the top.
Glenn


I feel bad for you, Glenn, being stuck with nothing but Pianoteq. It's not something I would even dream of using exclusively....maybe if I couldn't get the CP-300 started in the morning.

What I think is going to happen is this new Yamaha CP-1 is going to knock the spots clear off Pianoteq, and mostly anything else out there.

Pianoteq reminds me of mostly every Roland piano I've played, ever since they dropped the old SAS engine...the mids are synthetic from A below middle C to the D or E above the octave C.

I agree the bass is kind of missing something, but even after Zeke upgraded it to the latest version, it's still not even in the same league as the V-Piano, in my opinion.

Things like pianos sounds are personal and subjective, right?

Well, personally and subjectively, I think Pianoteq is okay to use if you have a low or medium priced piano and want to add something to make it sound better, or if you're one that likes to tinker around, instead of playing.

Other than that, I wouldn't waste my money on it...seriously.

Snazzy

Originally Posted by dewster
But when will someone finally give us SuperNATURAL Harmonic Spatial Acoustic Spectral Component Imaging?


Oooooooooh. I have GAS for SHSAPCI!!! (Although it does sound like Japanese massage).

Lawrence
OK. I agree that both Pianoteq and V-Piano are lacking in the mid range. (V-Piano more so than Pianoteq). I also agree that it is because they are both modeled instruments.

My question is why?

After all, it's just numbers and real time computations isn't it? Why can't they get the mid range right? Using pure modeling?

Lawrence
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/30/09 05:27 PM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
OK. I agree that both Pianoteq and V-Piano are lacking in the mid range. (V-Piano more so than Pianoteq). I also agree that it is because they are both modeled instruments.

My question is why?

After all, it's just numbers and real time computations isn't it? Why can't they get the mid range right? Using pure modeling?

Every day I wake up and thank the lord that I'm not a member of the team that writes the PT software. They have the toughest audience in the world.

I'm not saying that you are doing this Lawrence, but I think there is something about people knowing that it is 99% modeled that makes them hyper critical of the PT sound. TruePianos sounds much, much worse to me, but many people give it what I consider to be a huge break in comparison.

Anyway, back to your question, maybe it has something to do with the human ear being most sensitive in the midrange. Or maybe they aren't putting enough into modeling the string longitudinal vibrations. Or maybe there is something slightly out of kilter with the impulse response of the soundboard they convolve with everything else. Maybe it is a slight non-linear thing going on somewhere. Who knows. They are rather tight-lipped about how any of it works (I asked some specific questions in an email a year or so back, the response to which told me they didn't use digital waveguides) - all we can do is speculate about the black box that is PT.

Whatever it's flaws, I would seriously entertain killing in order to get PT inside my DP, even if it never evolved past v3.5.
Posted By: EssBrace Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/30/09 07:23 PM
Hyper-critical is the term for it. I have a V-Piano. I also just traded my GranTouch GT2 against a CVP 405 Clavinova. I have played almost everything out there, in fact owned much of it. We need to understand the distinction between the way a piano PLAYS and the way it SOUNDS. Of course sampled pianos sound like a piano. I mean, get real here folks. It is a recording of a piano! Modeled pianos have yet to be perfected I think we can all agree and yet they are immeasurably...IMMEASURABLY better as musical instruments. The point of an instrument is expression in my view. If we didn't want to express ourselves musically then why bother, just put a CD on and immerse yourself in a decent recording of a Steinway. Expression and musical emotion requires an instrument to be responsive to the touch. I haven't played Pianoteq, only heard some demos. But the V-Piano is in another league to sampled pianos AS AN INSTRUMENT.

All this nonsense about Roland undermining its own V-Piano because the new HP307 appears possibly to be a hybrid is crazy. The V-Piano IS the top of the range, not the HP307. Roland marketing needs to protect the position of the V-Piano and so of course they won't come out with something too soon that has exactly the same sound engine....IT WILL HAPPEN in time though.

The issues with the V-Piano midrange are there, I don't deny that. But it is still the most expressive instrument I have played. Modeled pianos are the future. Sampling is at the limit of development and it will slowly be replaced by modeling. The midrange issues will be solved.

We are all hyper-critical...we should expect this I suppose as most normal people would not be motivated to take part in this forum...normal people have lives and don't get bogged down in mind-numbing details. The very people that say the V-Piano is inadequate would pick a brand new Steinway to death.

Yamaha were obviously caught out by the V-Piano and they have launched what looks like some decent stage pianos but the technology is yesterday's...all covered up with marketing nonsense and acronyms and fancy cryptic abbreviations to distract attention from the fact that it is just another stage piano with four or five sample layers. Yawn.
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/30/09 07:41 PM
Originally Posted by EssBrace
Hyper-critical is the term for it. I have a V-Piano.

Yamaha were obviously caught out by the V-Piano and they have launched what looks like some decent stage pianos but the technology is yesterday's...all covered up with marketing nonsense and acronyms and fancy cryptic abbreviations to distract attention from the fact that it is just another stage piano with four or five sample layers. Yawn.


Roland were obviously caught out with the introduction of the Avant Grand, as they have nothing to compare with it. As I said, the V-Piano feels like every other high end Roland instrument...the Avant Grand feels nothing like any other digital piano...it is on a whole new level.

The new CP-series is modeling plus sampling, obviously the ideal method till someone manages to get modeling down right...it sure ain't Roland, as we speak, but that may change, although Pianoteq has been whacking away at it longer than the former, and they haven't quite got the right formula either.

Just like the old synthesizers that finally ended up having to augment sampling with synthesis to make realistic acoustic representations...(in fact, Roland were among the first to embrace this concept with their D-50), it is highly likely that modeling instruments may have to take the same path.

The people at Yamaha are no fools...they have had modeling from way back with the VL-1 synth, so they do know a thing or three about it...hence the hybrid CP-1/5/50.

Modeling has a way to go, and may never get there...until that happens, hybrids (sampling + modeling) will rule the roost.

Snazzy


Posted By: EssBrace Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/30/09 08:00 PM
Snazzy, I think you are grossly overstating the role modeling plays in Yamaha's new CP pianos. The acoustic sound will be sampled, probably with the addition of some modeled elements...pedal sounds or resonance. That's my guess anyway. Your point about the Avant Grand is fair enough but I don't think Roland have been caught out by something they probably have no intention of making themselves. You might expect me to stick to my point, which you don't address...and that is the tonal response of an instrument to velocity change. The Avant Grand is a sampled piano that buzzes but that is not tonal change, albeit I don't doubt it adds to the sensation of playing an acoustic piano.

You have spent a fortune on your Avant Grand. I have spent a slightly smaller fortune on my V-Piano. I am happy to admit my ego needs to justify my choice so I will defend the V-Piano. But I really do think it is a better instrument than any other electronic piano I have played. If anyone's interested, the second best is my Roland RD-1000...modeled Structured Adaptive Synthesis from 1986...expressive and emotional BUT NOTHING LIKE A PIANO. Its lack of piano-ness does not detract at all from its ability as a method of musical expression. That is the point to me...expression, not a quest for an exact sonic replica of a piano pursued with an almost religious zeal. One day we will have what we want, our DPs will SOUND and PLAY just as we might wish but until that day I will choose an instrument that PLAYS the most responsively.

Steve
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/30/09 08:18 PM
Steve,

I have a 20 year old HP-1700 using the same SAS as your RD-1000....yes, I like it a lot...very expressive, especially the electric pianos.

I don't think I'm overstating Yamaha's hybrid modeling plus sampling...it's obviously the right solution to the failings of pure modeling.

I do, however, know what a joy it is to play the Avant Grand, the only digital with soul, in my opinion.

I've had lots of digital pianos, more than I want to admit, but the Avant Grand is far beyond anything I've owned, or anything I've tried, including some quality time on the V-Piano.

The latter has no tactile feedback...nada..it feels like any other digital that uses the same action...it sounds very good, except for the middle, where most people play, but it still is no different than hooking up a quality weighted graded hammer action controller to a PC with Pianoteq...that's old news....really it is.

I have a good suspicion that these new Yamaha's are going to raise the bar for stage pianos. I doubt if they'll impress you enough to get one, but for those of us who were underwhelmed by the V-Piano, they will be worth a look, for sure.

Snazzy


Posted By: M. Doege Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/30/09 08:35 PM
Originally Posted by EssBrace

Yamaha were obviously caught out by the V-Piano and they have launched what looks like some decent stage pianos but the technology is yesterday's...all covered up with marketing nonsense and acronyms and fancy cryptic abbreviations to distract attention from the fact that it is just another stage piano with four or five sample layers. Yawn.


No, no, no! There are no sample layers in these new stage pianos! That much is clearly spelled out in Yamaha's CP1/5/50 product brochure:

Rather than multi-velocity layers of samples, SCM uses granular parametric data...

Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/30/09 08:42 PM
Originally Posted by Martin C. Doege
No, no, no! There are no sample layers in these new stage pianos! That much is clearly spelled out in Yamaha's CP1/5/50 product brochure:

Rather than multi-velocity layers of samples, SCM uses granular parametric data...

Well, they are probably extracting the data from a multi-velocity set and interpolating in the spectral domain via FFT or DCT.

So I'd say yes and no. Yes to there being layers somewhere, even if reduced algorithmically. Probably no to audible layer switching, though I would need to spend some time with one and my MIDI sequencer to be sure.
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/30/09 09:05 PM
Originally Posted by EssBrace


You might expect me to stick to my point, which you don't address...and that is the tonal response of an instrument to velocity change. The Avant Grand is a sampled piano that buzzes but that is not tonal change, albeit I don't doubt it adds to the sensation of playing an acoustic piano.


Steve,

Yes the Avant Grand is a sampled piano...but I really don't give a hoot what layers respond to what velocity...the instrument quite obviously provides the player with the experience of playing an acoustic grand piano better than any other digital piano.

I love playing acoustic piano, but I don't love tuning. I had a CP-80 for years...same thing...tuning.

The Avant Grand really isn't meant to compared to the V-Piano, because it is in a different category altogether....it plays like an acoustic...it fills the room like an acoustic...it sounds like a CFIII Concert Grand...it has tactile feedback.

It wasn't a lot of money, considering what it does and how it makes a piano player feel when playing it...a good grand piano costs far more.

I already have a great grand piano with the Steinway B...I just want one without needing to tune it....I have found what I was looking for.

Snazzy
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer

I don't think I'm overstating Yamaha's hybrid modeling plus sampling...it's obviously the right solution to the failings of pure modeling.


I hope you are right, but I don't understand what you are basing your claim on - at this point. What instrument have you played that is a combination of sampling + modeling that is so wonderful? Why is Yamaha's hybrid modeling plus sampling the "obviously the right solution to the failings of pure modeling"?

Until we've had a chance to PLAY the C1, I don't see how the playability can be assume to be wonderful. Heck, it is even sporting an new keyboard action, which makes the playability an even less known factor.

And as to the sound, there are very good examples of what it sounds like, as far as the acoustic pianos are concerned.

So, spill it. Are you basing your assessment on a particular instrument or instruments, or is this just wishful thinking at this point?


Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/30/09 09:49 PM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music



So, spill it. Are you basing your assessment on a particular instrument or instruments, or is this just wishful thinking at this point?




I'm just doing like all the other "experts", Lawrence...basing my opinion on what was said during the on-line videos, and listening to the piano being played.

I'm impressed that they would finally go to an all-wood action, and from what I heard, I'm thinking the sampling is supplemented by modeling, but, we each can't totally be sure until more is revealed by Yamaha or a third party, or we actually get to play one.

My opinions on the V-Piano, Pianoteq, and the Avant Grand are based on experience.

The ones on the the CP-1 probably lean more towards hope right now, as it would be nice to get a stage piano that has both killer acoustic and electric pianos.

Snazzy

Posted By: Glenn NK Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/30/09 10:04 PM
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
Originally Posted by Glenn NK


Which is interesting because most of us that use Pianoteq exclusively tend to ask for a more realistic deep bass (more of a growling sound at ff and fff), and are quite satisfied with the midrange right up to the top.
Glenn


I feel bad for you, Glenn, being stuck with nothing but Pianoteq. It's not something I would even dream of using exclusively....maybe if I couldn't get the CP-300 started in the morning.

What I think is going to happen is this new Yamaha CP-1 is going to knock the spots clear off Pianoteq, and mostly anything else out there.

Pianoteq reminds me of mostly every Roland piano I've played, ever since they dropped the old SAS engine...the mids are synthetic from A below middle C to the D or E above the octave C.

I agree the bass is kind of missing something, but even after Zeke upgraded it to the latest version, it's still not even in the same league as the V-Piano, in my opinion.

Things like pianos sounds are personal and subjective, right?

Well, personally and subjectively, I think Pianoteq is okay to use if you have a low or medium priced piano and want to add something to make it sound better, or if you're one that likes to tinker around, instead of playing.

Other than that, I wouldn't waste my money on it...seriously.

Snazzy



So we agree that it all comes down to personal taste/choice in sounds.

I played the V-Piano (admittedly for only 45 minutes), and what I heard was a reincarnation of my current Roland KR7. The bass underwhelmed me, and the rest was "so Roland" that if it wasn't for the absolutely gorgeous keys, I would have sworn I was sitting at the KR7 (or the KR107 ten feet away in the showroom - jeez, maybe I was at the KR107 wink ).

My KR7 is definitely not a low or medium priced piano - however for the piano sound I got, it should have been.

At the price point of these "new" Rolands and Yamahas, we won't have to worry about playing barefoot.

Glenn

PS: I can't say that the new Avant Grand won't blow socks off - haven't seen one or heard one yet. From what I've read here, it's quite an instrument. But for the last few months, I've not seen any ravings about the V-Piano. A lack of someone raving about it tends to tell me something is lacking.

On the Pianoteq forum, one user has a V-Piano and he submitted some mp3 files along with his midi files. The sound from the V wasn't raved about by anyone.
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/30/09 10:27 PM
Originally Posted by Glenn NK


So we agree that it all comes down to personal taste/choice in sounds.

I played the V-Piano (admittedly for only 45 minutes), and what I heard was a reincarnation of my current Roland KR7. The bass underwhelmed me, and the rest was "so Roland" that if it wasn't for the absolutely gorgeous keys, I would have sworn I was sitting at the KR7 (or the KR107 ten feet away in the showroom - jeez, maybe I was at the KR107 wink ).



I spent more than a few hours on the V-Piano...luckily I have a buddy who owns a store and after hours is no problem.

It almost seemed to me that they are mimicking everything that their present digitals have...the thinness of the samples staring at A under middle C, up to the D or E above, I can't exactly remember...but I do remember several people remarking like you did..it sounded like a Roland.

Like my Canadian clinician buddy Ian, always says, "You have to like what comes out of your speakers, regardless of the brand. It has to please the ear and the senses...it sometimes is hard to put into words."

Yamaha tends to be bright punchy, and Roland tends to be rounder and less sparkly (actually, very reminiscent of my Steinway B)...we all have a sound that defines "piano" in our heads....Yamaha does it for me. so far....that could change.

What irked me about the V-Piano, supposedly being a stage/studio instrument, was lack of Rhodes sounds(which Roland does very well, by the way) and lack of controller features....for the price, those are pretty noticeable things to leave off.

The new CP-1 pianos are a little more than halfway there...and at least they gave e.pianos and controller features, albeit only one wheel(what were they thinking?).

Snazzy
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer

The new CP-1 pianos are a little more than halfway there...and at least they gave e.pianos and controller features, albeit only one wheel(what were they thinking?).


I agree about the single wheel. Huh? And if you for some bizarre reason could only have one wheel, surely a mod wheel would be more useful.

I guess none of the engineers or marketing wizards are actually musicians.
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/30/09 11:08 PM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music



I agree about the single wheel. Huh? And if you for some bizarre reason could only have one wheel, surely a mod wheel would be more useful.

I guess none of the engineers or marketing wizards are actually musicians.


Maybe the wheel is assignable, but that still isn't ideal. My CP-300 has two wheels, and very good ones at that.

The CP-1's keybed doesn't have aftertouch either...my old Yamaha KX-88 had weighted and aftertouch...it can't be that hard to implement.

I'm in agreement that sometimes it's engineer's wishes over musician's needs, though I remember playing one of Yamaha's first Midi-Grand Pianos...an actual grand with Midi and with pitch and mod wheels no less...cool! smile It still went out of tune...bummer! frown

Snazzy
Posted By: ChrisA Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/30/09 11:23 PM
Originally Posted by Martin C. Doege
Originally Posted by EssBrace

Yamaha were obviously caught out by the V-Piano and they have launched what looks like some decent stage pianos but the technology is yesterday's...all covered up with marketing nonsense and acronyms and fancy cryptic abbreviations to distract attention from the fact that it is just another stage piano with four or five sample layers. Yawn.


No, no, no! There are no sample layers in these new stage pianos! That much is clearly spelled out in Yamaha's CP1/5/50 product brochure:

Rather than multi-velocity layers of samples, SCM uses granular parametric data...



I have to agree. They are NOT using velocity layers.

What this means is that they have chopped up the sound samples using a different method. For example they have a sample of the fundamental and a sample of the overtones and these are mixed in proportion to the key velocity and the proportion is also allowed to vary over time as the note sustains. I think it is more complex than that but my point is that it is still sample based but controlled by a empirically derived performance model. This is a lot different from a Pianoteq-like physical model

The real different is that the components of the key sample are not velocity layers

But all this is based on reading between the lines of very sparse text.
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/31/09 03:58 AM
I've played the V-Piano (yes it sounds like a Roland to a point ...) and I liked it a lot. I currently have a RD700GX and love it but I also have a S90XS with the famous S6 (a) sample and I must say I like it too despite what people say about it.Different pianos but both with their place. I didn't buy a V-Piano as I felt the cost compared to the improvement to RD700GX didn't justify it. But I'm very interested in the CP-1 and particularly the CP-5.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/31/09 04:00 AM
Originally Posted by ChrisA
But all this is based on reading between the lines of very sparse text.

Yes, I should have added that caveat to every one of my posts in this thread.
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/31/09 04:11 AM
Well I'll let you know next Tuesday ... a CP -1 is available to play over here. ;-)
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Well I'll let you know next Tuesday ... a CP -1 is available to play over here. ;-)


Doc -

I'm really looking forward to your report, especially re: acoustic pianos, playability, and impressions of the mid range.

Thanks,

Lawrence
Am I correct that in order to get the best Yamaha action, you have to get a Clavinova? If accurate, I wonder if this will change with the advent of the CP1? (Leaving AvantGrand out of the discussion . . ).
Posted By: ChrisA Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/31/09 06:35 PM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
Am I correct that in order to get the best Yamaha action, you have to get a Clavinova? If accurate, I wonder if this will change with the advent of the CP1? (Leaving AvantGrand out of the discussion . . ).


Up until these new CP series pianos Yamaha did not put the wood keys in a portable piano. So it looks like you are right.
I wonder how the "Newly developed NW-STAGE wooden keyboard" for the CP1 differs from the Clavinova NW (Natural Wood) Keyboards found on the higher end Clavinovas.
Posted By: EssBrace Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/31/09 10:30 PM
It has a different name. Isn't that different enough for you?

Their Clavinova NW action is a joke...just a GH3 with wooden understructure for the white keys...insulting to the intelligence in fact. I actually think the GH3 is a great action but to sell the NW thing like it's genuine added value is just nonsense.

Most of the manufacturers are the same...marginal (if any) change dressed up in marketing jargon like it's the re-invention of the wheel. Nauseating.
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 12/31/09 11:01 PM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
I wonder how the "Newly developed NW-STAGE wooden keyboard" for the CP1 differs from the Clavinova NW (Natural Wood) Keyboards found on the higher end Clavinovas.


Perhaps we will encounter a fully "wood" action, as opposed to the half wood currently offered on the higher end Clavinovas.

It will have to go a long way in beating the action in my CP-300, which is definitely one the best in a digital, in my opinion, aside from the action in my Avant Grand.

I'm still annoyed that they are only implementing one wheel on the CP-1/5/50, and none of them are a whole lot lighter than my CP-300; and it has speakers!

If they aren't all they's cracked up to be, I'm buying an XK-1 Hammond to put on top of my CP-300 instead.

Snazzy




Interesting point about the wood action being only for the white notes, on the current high end Clavinovas. I wonder in a blind test if you could tell the wood action apart from, what, G3 - assuming that the key surface material is the same.

On Sat. I'm going to go to the local store that carries Clavinovas and see what I can determine. (I'll try to organize a blind test, which would be really interesting. Is the NW actually worth the extra expense?

I recall that I liked the wood keyboard Clavinova, when I was last looking for a DP. I ended up going with the Roland HP-207, because it seemed better up to the task of rehearsing a 30 voice choir. (At the time, though, I did prefer the Clavinonva for New Age piano work.)

Lawrence
Originally Posted by EssBrace
It has a different name. Isn't that different enough for you?





I'm not sure what you mean by this response.

Quote


Most of the manufacturers are the same...marginal (if any) change dressed up in marketing jargon like it's the re-invention of the wheel. Nauseating.


I can't agree when it comes to Roland. I've played PHA, PHA-II (with escapement) and PHA-III (with escapement). Is there a difference? You bet. Is it mere marketing hype? Nope.

Lawrence
Posted By: EssBrace Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/01/10 12:13 AM
Snazzy,

It is a credit to Yamaha that they can get close to the Avant Grand action (which more or less is a grand action) with the GH action in your CP-300. I agree with you, having just traded my Gran Touch for a GH3 equipped Clavinova...the GH3 is very nearly as good as the Gran Touch.

The GH3 is mechanically the same as the CP-300 with the addition of another sensor. The current Yamaha NW action is again mechanically the same as GH3 but with wooden white keys. Even if they make the black keys with wood, what does this achieve in reality?

Unless a manufacturer uses a grand action as per Avant Grand or Gran Touch or uses wood to make a very long, properly pivoted key as per Kawai, the use of wood is ridiculous because it achieves absolutely nothing.

Steve
Posted By: EssBrace Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/01/10 12:29 AM
Lawrence

As you know I have a V-Piano with PHA-III. It is nice, very nice. Smooth, agile, percussive. It is noisier than my GH3-equipped Clavinova. I played RD-700 GX with PHA-II and this in my opinion was just as nice. My Roland guy tells me that preference among his customers is divided between PHA-II or III. They are both good. Anyone that thinks PHA-III is some sort of quantum leap is deluded...at best it is a marginal improvement.

My other comment was in response to your question about how NW stage will differ to previous NW action. Well, it has a new name. THAT is the difference. If you are hoping for a Kawai-like long wood key then dream on.

I think the PHA-II and III are the best actions currently fitted to DPs apart from the full grand actions in the Avant Grand. The Yamaha GH3 forms the basis of all other higher end Yamaha actions and it is quite good enough in my opinion...swapping odd bits of plastic for wood makes no difference at all.

Steve
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/01/10 12:32 AM
Originally Posted by EssBrace
Kawai-like long wood

Oh my lord! Isn't this a family forum?
Posted By: EssBrace Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/01/10 12:38 AM
forgive my inadvertent smut!
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/01/10 04:13 AM
I'm more interested in the piano sound of the CP-1 (or 5)...if the action was made out of all plastic, it wouldn't matter, as long as it is as good as the CP-300 (better would be nice, but not necessary).

I was hoping they would be lighter in weight than the specs state, as it would be nice to have a piano around 30 lbs that I could take gigging...I'm not fond of lugging the CP-300. Thankfully, the P-85 through a decent stereo sound system sounds pretty darn good.

I get my acoustic fix daily on the Avant Grand...it would be nice to get almost the same piano sound quality in a more portable rig...the CP-300 is excellent...the on-board speakers are really good, and almost give the experience of sitting at a real piano, at least sound wise...still no tactile feedback, but I don't mind missing that with a stage piano.

They can make the action out of whatever they want, aluminum, titanium, cork...as long as it still has a good piano feel.

I'm not going to feel awful if the CP-1 doesn't quite do it for me...there'll be others, and perhaps we'll get a new P-85 replacement with the same light weight. One thing thing for sure is I'm in no hurry...I can stand pat if I have to.

Snazzy
Posted By: sid4iwpa Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/02/10 01:10 AM
if you wish to hear the cp-1 piano patches, i found 6 videos on youtube where the pianist play the patches one by one. there are the links:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtVSQOHSNvw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UUamUeceh4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdYtfegYwTQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mznOAVzAXo&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3UhJbvy2fQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ognm-PMPCTk&feature=related

enjoy!
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/02/10 01:17 AM
I don't like the sound of the acoustic piano on the demo...I'm going to have to wait and try it in person through a decent sound system and headphones...that's the only way. Very hard and almost tubby in the low-mid range....eeeccchh!

Snazzy
Posted By: M. Doege Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/02/10 01:43 AM
Ugh, it's all some kind of strange Jazz or Pop noodling. Almost any piano sounds good that way. And the audio quality completely sucks. (Not recorded directly from line out!)

Hopefully Olaf Brauns will do another one of his glorious DP demo videos for Musik Schmidt with the CP-1. At least he's able and willing to throw in a few bars of classical music now and then...
Posted By: sullivang Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/02/10 03:22 AM
According to this link http://music.yamaha.com/products/highlights/keyboardsAST/8.html the NW action is different to GH3, in that it reproduces the extra delay in the low notes. Can anyone confirm this, or does the GH3 also have this varying delay?

I'm not at all convinced that NW-Stage is the same as NW yet. In the literature, and also in the presentations, it is described as being "weighted", not "graded". For the CP-1, they say "graded".

Greg.
Originally Posted by sid4iwpa
if you wish to hear the cp-1 piano patches, i found 6 videos on youtube where the pianist play the patches one by one.


Those demos have been on YouTube for awhile, and are useless in terms of demonstrating what the keyboard sounds like. (In fact, they do more harm than good, IMHO).

We need good demos, recorded directed with no room sound.

Lawrence
Posted By: sid4iwpa Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/03/10 02:34 AM
Official CP-1 video by yamaha :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzL-e-0TR-4&feature=related

Xan playing the CP1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulhgTY33Dxs&feature=related

more CP1 demo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BD7uRa6F1Y&feature=related
(piano patch at 1:07 sounds warm and rich)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wd38_jCTIFo
(it's in japanese, dun understand that the demonstrator is saying...)

Originally Posted by sid4iwpa


I hadn't heard the Xan demo before. His demonstrating the smooth volume changes was very interesting. If we truly don't hear any velocity switching in a sample based instrument, that is a remarkable advancement.

As always, though, listening to audio via video does not provide the best demonstration.

Lawrence
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/03/10 07:35 AM
I play it Tuesday .... we shall see what the verdict is.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/03/10 01:55 PM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
Originally Posted by sid4iwpa


I hadn't heard the Xan demo before. His demonstrating the smooth volume changes was very interesting. If we truly don't hear any velocity switching in a sample based instrument, that is a remarkable advancement.

As always, though, listening to audio via video does not provide the best demonstration.


Agreed. Though often I can't hear layers unless I'm using a MIDI sequencer, which gives me exact control over the velocity - then it jumps right out. Of course, some voices like electric piano where they use two layers for the distortion effect almost always have an annoyingly abrupt switch. At least in this keyboard they are doing the EP distortion effects the right way with effects.

The section of the video where Xan demos the acoustic piano was way too short, and was the usual "flurry of notes" thing that would make a cheap Casiotone sound like a Bösendorfer Imperial Grand. The universal shortness of this section in all the videos is helping to lower my expectations of this part of the DP.

And claiming he'd only played with it for a few minutes - yet inexplicably was somehow able to press a vaguely named button, turn a random knob until something cryptic came up on the tiny screen, and then play a key to move the split point - was hilarious. Looks like the generally terrible UI that Yamaha is (in)famous for.
Agreed. All the demos do a wee bit of piano and then move on. Personally, I'm only interested in the AP. And, yes, we need slow sustained playing, in all the ranges, especially the all important mid. And, DON'T TALK over the playing.

And, since I'm interested in the AP, why not showcase both pianos from the CP1, and even the various presets. That would be interesting.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to Dr Popper's review, and hoping that it will be positive. (Hey, Dr Popper, some of us are REALLY interested in the AP sounds. Hint. Hint!)

Lawrence
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/03/10 03:22 PM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
And, since I'm interested in the AP, why not showcase both pianos from the CP1, and even the various presets. That would be interesting.

I can't figure out why the marketing is coming across this way. Is it because the engineers and marketing guys are particularly excited about the EPs and they way they were implemented (even though it all seems very pedestrian and straightforward to me)? Or is it because they know exactly what went into the APs and they are really nothing to write home about (e.g. maybe a relatively small section of the sample memory is dedicated to the APs)? Or is it all just chance that they are heavily favoring the EPs over the APs? Yamaha is a huge tightly run ship, it's hard for me to believe something so basic to a new product line roll-out would be mismanaged.

Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
Anyway, I'm looking forward to Dr Popper's review, and hoping that it will be positive. (Hey, Dr Popper, some of us are REALLY interested in the AP sounds. Hint. Hint!)

I second that! I can stand a bit of stretching, and layering is generally rather inaudible if it is done even half-way right, but looping I just can't abide. Dr Popper, could you keep a particularly sharp ear out for looping? Any looping or otherwise lame decay and I'm marking this one off the list (which is a list of one, by the way).

[edit]Oh, and I forgot about sympathetic resonance (or whatever reasonable facsimile of that is implemented on this line). If it sounds fake when this effect is turned up then that's also a no-go for me. I demand realistic decay and resonance, or it's a continuation of my long, slow, dreary waiting game.
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/03/10 03:40 PM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music


Anyway, I'm looking forward to Dr Popper's review, and hoping that it will be positive. (Hey, Dr Popper, some of us are REALLY interested in the AP sounds. Hint. Hint!)

Lawrence


I'll give it a go I'm not really a acoustic player in the classical/soloist style I tend to bash away like Eno on acid (did I mention I'm a keyboard player for a rock band ?).I'd better brush up so I can give it the full Zabraski Point treatment just for you ...Its interesting as I have a big 142mb S6 sample on my s90xs and that's (despite what I've heard people say) a really fantastic AP patch that plays warm and rich just like a real S6 that's done a few miles. I also have a real live C7 at my house which I fiddle around on (bash away really) when nobody's about to offend and I'd like to see the CP1 able to match it ( I don't think it will but if it gets close I'll be impressed) I've got a bit of a "in" with Yamaha at the moment and I'll be making the most of it don't you worry and I will certainly post my impressions (and samples if I can) here for you to check out.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/03/10 03:57 PM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
I'll give it a go I'm not really a acoustic player in the classical/soloist style I tend to bash away like Eno on acid (did I mention I'm a keyboard player for a rock band ?).I'd better brush up so I can give it the full Zabraski Point treatment just for you

Thanks much but that's not really necessary. Just play some notes by themselves and listen for lameness. Press the damper and repeat.

Originally Posted by Dr Popper
...Its interesting as I have a big 142mb S6 sample on my s90xs

Not trying to harsh on your s90sx, but I find "big" followed by "142mb" a rather depressing accurate description of the size of DP sample sets these days. Yamaha themselves claim it to be "huge". What passed for an average sized AP sample on the PC years ago was 20x this, and Yamaha will have to invent entirely new descriptive words for over-the-top massive hyper hugeness when they put a sample anywhere near that size in one of their DPs (circa 2020). Those guys are wearing out the English language.
Posted By: wildpaws Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/03/10 06:17 PM
If you truly believe that DPs are so far behind in technology and you think that "huge" sample based PC software pianos are so advanced, then why are you bothering to look for a DP to fit your needs?? I have found it best to find out which gear works best for my wants/needs and to then purchase it. You cannot force manufacturers to make something to exactly your specifications, you look at what is offered, if it works for you then purchase it and use it.
Clyde
Originally Posted by Dr Popper

. . . I will certainly post my impressions (and samples if I can) here for you to check out.


If you can record directly that would be great. (Perhaps you can record to a USB jump drive / stick / key). Some of the newer Yamahas have this feature. I find that recording using a (cheap) mic or video camera mic are less than useful, when it comes to evaluating the sound quality!
Originally Posted by dewster

Not trying to harsh on your s90sx, but I find "big" followed by "142mb" a rather depressing accurate description of the size of DP sample sets these days. Yamaha themselves claim it to be "huge".


That actually IS large for ROM. Don't forget these will be compressed samples with real time decompression going on. The sample libraries on your computer are not compressed.

We need to compare apples to apples, in terms of size here. RAM / uncompressed v. ROM / compressed.

Also, don't forget that some of the modeling magic will result in the samples being smaller, I suspect.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/04/10 12:38 AM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
That actually IS large for ROM. Don't forget these will be compressed samples with real time decompression going on. The sample libraries on your computer are not compressed.

We need to compare apples to apples, in terms of size here. RAM / uncompressed v. ROM / compressed.

Except the forms of compression they've used in the past to make these smaller are stretching, looping, and fewer velocity layers. Sorry, I stopped wanting to hear that tired kind of compression years ago. Maybe this DP line will finally be different, but who knows?

Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
Also, don't forget that some of the modeling magic will result in the samples being smaller, I suspect.

No offense, but you have an awful lot of faith in a bunch of guys who never met a microscopic ROM they didn't love.

I'm always surprised when I see the insides of a DP - I expect to find ferrite core RAM and diode ROM.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/04/10 12:53 AM
Originally Posted by wildpaws
If you truly believe that DPs are so far behind in technology and you think that "huge" sample based PC software pianos are so advanced, then why are you bothering to look for a DP to fit your needs?? I have found it best to find out which gear works best for my wants/needs and to then purchase it.

Oh, if it were only that simple. The thing is, I really want a state-of-the-art DP, something you just turn on and play, not some software running on a PC (though that has it's place). Now and then I'm asked to recommend DPs for various people and installations, and most people just aren't technically up to a SW piano setup. Most can barely turn on the powerstrip to the PA.

V-Piano was looking good for a while, though it's definitely not very portable, and then I realized that modeling takes multiple generations to get anywhere near right. At least Pianoteq gives free updates, but who knows what Roland will offer? In the non-modeled category no one offers a large enough sample.

Originally Posted by wildpaws
You cannot force manufacturers to make something to exactly your specifications, you look at what is offered, if it works for you then purchase it and use it.

Well, that's the point, nothing I want is being offered by anyone. Don't you want a DP that is good enough to record with? Don't a lot of people here want that? This isn't just pointless bitching, I know manufacturers watch sites like this to at least some degree. And we all know they can build it, they just won't for some reason. I've asked KAWAI James about it pointedly and repeatedly, but he's been totally mum on the subject.

Are there any other industry types here that can weigh-in on this subject?
Originally Posted by dewster

. . . I really want a state-of-the-art DP, something you just turn on and play, not some software running on a PC (though that has it's place).


dewster -

Exactly! That's what I'm looking for as well, although of course I'm willing to use the computer when I need to record. However, really, I'd like to simply press the power button and play. Not deal with multiple program loads, and configuring files, and click, click, click with the mouse.

What is your opinion of the Yamaha CLP-380?

Lawrence
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/04/10 01:44 AM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
What is your opinion of the Yamaha CLP-380?

Haven't heard it, but 5 velocity layers is sort of barely getting there. 8 key up + 8 key down = 16 is what I would consider to be minimum for a sampled piano (as would many I suspect if they were buying a PC sample set 5 years ago). The real question is the size of the sample, which Yamaha probably doesn't want to tell you. They idiotically consider that kind of info to be proprietary - funny, those who sell PC sample sets know it is a huge (some would say THE) selling point and advertise it all over the place.

OK, I'll say it again: I can buy a 4GB USB flash drive at newegg for $10. Why are there no 4GB AP samples to be found in any DPs???? It simply can't be economics at this point...
Posted By: madshi Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/04/10 08:26 AM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
That actually IS large for ROM. Don't forget these will be compressed samples with real time decompression going on. The sample libraries on your computer are not compressed.

Lossless compression (e.g. FLAC, TrueHD) achieves about a compression ratio of 3:1 with 16bit material. So even if the ROMs are compressed by using lossless compression, those 142mb would just become 450mb. That's still really low compared to what PC software does. Ivory comes with 40GB worth of sample data. Of course it's possible that they use lossy compression for the ROMs, but that comes with its own problems. Lossy compression works well enough for a final song. But if you actually compress the original PCM data, which must still be processed, mixed together etc, the loss by lossy compression hurts much more. Furthermore I would guess that typical DP CPUs aren't fast enough to uncompress 128 (polyphony) lossy samples at the same time, when using really high quality codecs like MP3 or AAC. So if ROMs are compressed, it's probably a rather simple compression algorithm. Which means that either quality suffers, or the compression ratio can't be too great.

Originally Posted by dewster
OK, I'll say it again: I can buy a 4GB USB flash drive at newegg for $10. Why are there no 4GB AP samples to be found in any DPs???? It simply can't be economics at this point...

As was said before, you need a certain speed which may or may not be delivered by standard off the shelf flash components. Furthermore, not only the storage itself must be more capable, also the data bus and the main processing chip must be able to handle the higher load. It's possible that there are simply no standard hardware chips available yet which have the power/functionality to handle such large samples without getting too hot. We don't want fans in our DPs, do we? But I don't really know.

I do think, though, that top-of-the-line DPs are expensive enough that manufacturers should really pull out all the stops. If temperature is a problem, they could implement large external heatsinks and connect them to the CPU with heatpipes. Going the extra mile would also give manufacturers a valid reason for the much higher price of top-of-the-line DPs compared to budget DPs.
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/04/10 09:25 AM
If I can record myself playing my S6 sample on my S90XS and then record myself playing a real S6 and guarantee you all that none of you could pick by ear which is which.... Whats the issue ?
Big sample , small sample , no sample ....if it works don't be picky. Because then you've stopped becoming a musician and started being a technician.

Posted By: Pianisti Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/04/10 09:31 AM
Originally Posted by madshi

I do think, though, that top-of-the-line DPs are expensive enough that manufacturers should really pull out all the stops. If temperature is a problem, they could implement large external heatsinks and connect them to the CPU with heatpipes. Going the extra mile would also give manufacturers a valid reason for the much higher price of top-of-the-line DPs compared to budget DPs.



Yeah, you need quite a bit of watts to keep a decent processor and memory running even these days so heat, noise and reliability is really a problem. Think about fitting a 500 watt power supply unit into your DP with a quad core 2,5 GHz processor, 4-8 GB of DDR2/DDR3 ram, and some kind of storage device for 40-80 GB. In addition to that you need the motherboard, high quality audio chip + the normal gear of a DP.

So you've got 500 watts of power that needs lots of cooling but has to be very silent, and the whole system has to be robust in any kind of use for more than 5 years (physical shocks, humidity and temperature changes...) - no wonder why the DP manufacturers go under the fence here.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/04/10 05:59 PM
Originally Posted by madshi
Lossless compression (e.g. FLAC, TrueHD) achieves about a compression ratio of 3:1 with 16bit material. So even if the ROMs are compressed by using lossless compression, those 142mb would just become 450mb. That's still really low compared to what PC software does. Ivory comes with 40GB worth of sample data. Of course it's possible that they use lossy compression for the ROMs, but that comes with its own problems.

PC sample sets are not compressed. It doesn't make any sense to do that when memory and hard drive space cost so little.

Originally Posted by madshi
Lossy compression works well enough for a final song. But if you actually compress the original PCM data, which must still be processed, mixed together etc, the loss by lossy compression hurts much more.

What do you base that assertion on? What did you mean exactly by "hurts much more"?

Depending on the how the sample data is encoded in the compressed domain, it might be entirely possible to do simple transformations like scaling single samples, and interpolating and mixing multiple samples before bulk decompression (i.e. if compression / decompression is largely a linear operation). But that's educated guessing on my part, and I don't think compression and its associated computational overhead are necessary at all the minute cheap flash is available (~4 years ago).

Originally Posted by madshi
As was said before, you need a certain speed which may or may not be delivered by standard off the shelf flash components.

Flash bandwidth is not an issue.

Interpolating between two samples for detuning purposes, and also interpolating between two velocity layers for layer blending purposes, would require 4 Flash accesses per sample. For 128 polyphony at 44.1kHz:

4 * 128 * 44100 = 22,579,200 samples per second, or one sample every 44.29 ns. Two banks of relatively slow Flash operating at 70 ns could easily do this.

Originally Posted by madshi
Furthermore, not only the storage itself must be more capable, also the data bus and the main processing chip must be able to handle the higher load. It's possible that there are simply no standard hardware chips available yet which have the power/functionality to handle such large samples without getting too hot. We don't want fans in our DPs, do we? But I don't really know.

As you can see from the calculation above, the processor and memory have to handle 22.6 million samples per second peak. If the processor runs at 1 GHz, this gives 44 clocks per sample, which should be plenty (if the operating system overhead can be managed, which an RTOS is designed to do).

Also, you can easily buy a DP or synth that will do 128 polyphony. And I would submit that looping requires the same or more computation than simple sample playback, so we're already there in terms of processor power - we've been there for a while now.

Originally Posted by madshi
I do think, though, that top-of-the-line DPs are expensive enough that manufacturers should really pull out all the stops.

Amen brother, amen.

Originally Posted by madshi
If temperature is a problem, they could implement large external heatsinks and connect them to the CPU with heatpipes.

Take a look at this product for ballpark processing power and memory / storage bandwidth:

WD TV

It streams and decompresses HD video. Sells for $80. No heat issues.

Originally Posted by madshi
Going the extra mile would also give manufacturers a valid reason for the much higher price of top-of-the-line DPs compared to budget DPs.

Yes, this is what I really don't get. I believe they could charge something of a premium for a recording quality DP, and I believe there is a demand for one, yet for some reason it doesn't exist.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/04/10 06:08 PM
Originally Posted by Pianisti
Yeah, you need quite a bit of watts to keep a decent processor and memory running even these days so heat, noise and reliability is really a problem. Think about fitting a 500 watt power supply unit into your DP with a quad core 2,5 GHz processor, 4-8 GB of DDR2/DDR3 ram, and some kind of storage device for 40-80 GB. In addition to that you need the motherboard, high quality audio chip + the normal gear of a DP.

You could do it with 5 watts, 10 if you're sloppy. No need for fans at those levels of power dissipation. No need for tons of RAM or multiple cores either.

I'm not really talking PC stuff here, but a 1 GHz ARM or equivalent, which is much more power efficient than even the Atom.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/04/10 06:18 PM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
If I can record myself playing my S6 sample on my S90XS and then record myself playing a real S6 and guarantee you all that none of you could pick by ear which is which.... Whats the issue ?

Ever heard the soundtrack to "To Live and Die in LA"? On the track "The Red Stare" single piano notes are played very slowly with the pedal down. If you listen through headphones you can hear the sympathetic resonance of the entire piano. You can hear the felt hitting the strings when he releases the pedal to damp the strings. I bet I could tell the difference between your real piano and your S90SX if you were playing that.

That's the kind of realism I demand in a DP, I want it to fool me playing anything.

Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Big sample , small sample , no sample ....if it works don't be picky.

Well, that's the point, it doesn't work for me. I really wish it did.

Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Because then you've stopped becoming a musician and started being a technician.

We all become technicians to one degree or another when we are confronted with the purchase of a DP. I bet the size of the piano sample in your shiny new S90SX was a selling point for you - of so, then who's being the technician now?
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/04/10 08:12 PM
Now you've embarrassed me because I didn't remember that track which considering I played with Jack and Nick for nearly a year many moons ago got me to go find it. You might have picked the one track which would show up any DP in contemporary music but I could play it on a Roland Fantom G8 without you knowing as its got a separate sample for the kind of resonance effect your hearing on that track. Seriously I didn't know the size of the sample before I got the S90XS I just played it and it sounded good to me.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/04/10 08:42 PM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
I played with Jack and Nick for nearly a year many moons ago got me to go find it.

Wow! That is seriously cool. Please do elaborate.

Originally Posted by Dr Popper
You might have picked the one track which would show up any DP in contemporary music

Anyone else that is interested can listen to the beginning of it here:

The Red Stare

Originally Posted by Dr Popper
but I could play it on a Roland Fantom G8 without you knowing as its got a separate sample for the kind of resonance effect your hearing on that track.

The G8 resonance may be nice (I haven't heard it) but I would probably be able to hear the looping, which would kill it for me. They list the wave memory as "256MB (16-bit linear equivalent)" which I would guess unfairly counts stretching and looping. It's not clear how much of that memory is dedicated to the AP voices.

Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Seriously I didn't know the size of the sample before I got the S90XS I just played it and it sounded good to me.

I would submit that it sounds good because it is much larger than normal for a DP (though still quite small by PC sample standards). An even bigger sample would sound even better.
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/04/10 09:14 PM
Not much to elaborate on my years of being a DX7 /Prophet /Fairlight geek are kind of a blur these days. I played with quite a few acts both touring and in the studio after my band broke up in 1984. Then I settled down married had kids and ended up in studio and stage production and the dreaded advertising business. I've been working on movie and tv music as well as stage shows and doing the odd album production since. Just got the band back together for a reunion tour in September and that's reminded me why I never missed it ;-)
Posted By: Pianisti Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/04/10 09:32 PM
Originally Posted by dewster

You could do it with 5 watts, 10 if you're sloppy. No need for fans at those levels of power dissipation. No need for tons of RAM or multiple cores either.

I'm not really talking PC stuff here, but a 1 GHz ARM or equivalent, which is much more power efficient than even the Atom.


But where do you store those 40 GB samples like in Synthogy Ivory or Best Service Galaxy and read them fast enough to produce real-time no-latency playback?

Posted By: madshi Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/04/10 09:40 PM
Originally Posted by dewster
PC sample sets are not compressed. It doesn't make any sense to do that when memory and hard drive space cost so little.

Never said they were. I was talking about DP ROMs.

Originally Posted by dewster
What do you base that assertion on? What did you mean exactly by "hurts much more"?

If you take lossy sources and process/mix/modify them, things can only get worse. There are many examples in the audio and video processing world that show this. E.g. if you post process lossily compressed video, things can get ugly very fast. Lossy compression is great, but I'd use it only for the final step. At least that's my opinion. I don't have a scientific proof.

Originally Posted by dewster
Flash bandwidth is not an issue.

Interpolating between two samples for detuning purposes, and also interpolating between two velocity layers for layer blending purposes, would require 4 Flash accesses per sample. For 128 polyphony at 44.1kHz:

4 * 128 * 44100 = 22,579,200 samples per second, or one sample every 44.29 ns. Two banks of relatively slow Flash operating at 70 ns could easily do this.

One sample consists of 4 bytes, though (16bit * stereo). Also there is *always* some overhead. Plus read spead must be noticeably faster than the theoretical needs, because you want a safety net.

Originally Posted by dewster
As you can see from the calculation above, the processor and memory have to handle 22.6 million samples per second peak. If the processor runs at 1 GHz, this gives 44 clocks per sample, which should be plenty (if the operating system overhead can be managed, which an RTOS is designed to do).

Also, you can easily buy a DP or synth that will do 128 polyphony. And I would submit that looping requires the same or more computation than simple sample playback, so we're already there in terms of processor power - we've been there for a while now.

I don't have enough information about the internal design of a typical DP. If you loop samples a lot, you have to read much less data. Yes, the amount of data going to the DAC/outputs is the same. But the CPU does not only process, it's also responsible for controlling the data transfer, I think. So higher data transfers from ROM to CPU will also stress the CPU more. It's also possible that the CPUs typically used for DPs are simply not built in such a way that they can read data that fast from any source. I don't know that, though...

Originally Posted by dewster
Take a look at this product for ballpark processing power and memory / storage bandwidth:

WD TV

It streams and decompresses HD video. Sells for $80. No heat issues.

I'm well aware of these devices. The Sigma Designs 8625 chip typically used by these HD video players gets quite hot. There are heat issues with some such players out there. And many of them have fans inside. I have one of these devices at home - fanless. I can barely touch it when it's playing back HD video. Also I believe the 8625 would be much too slow for a DP situation. Ok, it does decode HD video and that needs a lot of performance, but it's all done hard wired and not by the general processing part of the chip. The general processing part of the 8625 is so slow that it can't move more than about 10MB/s over a Gigabit Ethernet port, IIRC.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/04/10 09:46 PM
Originally Posted by Pianisti
[quote=dewster]But where do you store those 40 GB samples like in Synthogy Ivory or Best Service Galaxy and read them fast enough to produce real-time no-latency playback?

On a SSD :

PQI 32 GB Solid State HD

Much, much higher read data speeds (lower access time, higher sustained bandwidth), much more durable, and lower power consumption than spinning platter-based drives. Cost is ~$100 (and dropping like a rock).
Posted By: Pianisti Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/04/10 10:05 PM
Originally Posted by dewster

On a SSD :

PQI 32 GB Solid State HD

Much, much higher read data speeds (lower access time, higher sustained bandwidth), much more durable, and lower power consumption than spinning platter-based drives. Cost is ~$100 (and dropping like a rock).


Sequential Access - Read: Up to 170MB/s

You do get the low power consumption with that though and if combined with a low power consuming processor - it could work without noisy fans in there.

I think you would still need atleast some kind of fast ram for this system to work? That 170 MB/s is not enough, but it could be enough to feed the memory buffer of about 1GB or something. Why not just put 8GB-16GB of memory and load all needed samples to memory on start-up?

But, if you would want any kind of adjustable effects in order to mimic the acoustics of a concert hall for example, it would require a lot more computing power or some kind of DSP.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/04/10 10:13 PM
Originally Posted by madshi
One sample consists of 4 bytes, though (16bit * stereo). Also there is *always* some overhead. Plus read spead must be noticeably faster than the theoretical needs, because you want a safety net.

DP and synth manufacturers often count a single stereo note playing as polyphony 2. Even in that case 128 should be fine for almost any kind of playing on a DP.

The sample banks would be 16 or more bits wide, and my example was with old flash just to show that it was possible long ago. These days the sample playing would most likely be placed, in whole or in chunks, in dynamic RAM, from a SSD. It's more efficient to use DMA for this transfer, which is dedicated hardware that doesn't depend on the processor core.

Originally Posted by madshi
I don't have enough information about the internal design of a typical DP. If you loop samples a lot, you have to read much less data. Yes, the amount of data going to the DAC/outputs is the same. But the CPU does not only process, it's also responsible for controlling the data transfer, I think. So higher data transfers from ROM to CPU will also stress the CPU more. It's also possible that the CPUs typically used for DPs are simply not built in such a way that they can read data that fast from any source. I don't know that, though...

Looping is a two stage process, and the transition from pure sample playback to pure loop playback is generally a crossfade. Which means that during the crossfade both processes are running concurrently. Clearly even this double load is not too much for the current inexpensive processors used in DPs.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/04/10 10:23 PM
Originally Posted by Pianisti
Sequential Access - Read: Up to 170MB/s

<snip>

I think you would still need atleast some kind of fast ram for this system to work? That 170 MB/s is not enough, but it could be enough to feed the memory buffer of about 1GB or something. Why not just put 8GB-16GB of memory and load all needed samples to memory on start-up?

You only need that full bandwidth if someone mashed 64 keys all at once and you wanted a realistic representation of that.

SSDs are much faster than regular hard drives - if you can run a PC sampler off of a regular hard drive (and you can) then it should run even better off of a SSD.

No need to load all samples at start-up, streaming from a conventional HD has worked fine for years now.

Originally Posted by Pianisti
But, if you would want any kind of adjustable effects in order to mimic the acoustics of a concert hall for example, it would require a lot more computing power or some kind of DSP.

The processor doesn't really do that much in a sample playback environment. I'm sure there would be cycles to spare for reverb and the like. You can always use a sample that captures the room acoustics too.
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/05/10 06:09 AM
Ok I am back from the demo with the CP1 (and the CP5, CP50) and although i only had about 10 mins with each board and couldn't record any samples I can offer a opinion of sorts.
1) Keyboard ... its very good in fact close your eyes and you simply wouldn't be able to tell. I strongly suspect its the same or a very similar keyboard that's used in the Aavant Grand series and along the same lines as the V-Piano keyboard. Both the CP1 and CP5 have this same keyboard and its good. The CP50 has a different keyboard same as the S90XS I think and its very good but not quite like the others that really do feel authentic.
2) AP sounds ...the CP1 has 2 each of the SCM patches from the S6 and CFIII grands the CP5 has one of each. In AP (S6b -1) the sound was excellent noticeably better then my S90Xs which has the same S6 patch (a normal sample not the SCM) The Yamaha tech informed me that SCM is not sampling or modeling but rather a combination taking the best of each. The S6B SCM (1) on the CP1 was noticeably brighter then the CP5 in the mid-range but the 2nd S6 sample was a softer more traditional Yamaha sound. In the short time I had to play the boards I did not notice any obvious stretching or looping even when I tried however to my ear there are still some artifacts in the decay but its doubtful you would describe them as looping its a more acoustic artifact you sometimes hear on older pianos and I cannot even be sure I didn't imagine it. It is not unpleasant or noticeable. The CP1 sounded better and more rounded in both CFIII patches then the CP5 did in its one CFIII patch but both were more then acceptable (to my ear) and sounded better then the Advent Grand we played as well. Both piano's I felt were a improvement on the already excellent S90XS S6 based AP as was the CP50 which while offering the same keyboard as the S90XS was a nicer AP sound.
3)The pick of the bunch for me was the CP5 which has really nice strings and Clav's as well as some of the better EP's from the CP1 plus normal Yamaha range ( a lot of my S90XS's sounds were there). The CP1 has amazing EP's ...great Rhodes (5 of them !) Controls look good for stage use and the CP1 offers almost infinite adjustment similar to the V-Piano. The CP5 appears to offer similar but less intricate adjustment. I didn't get into the tech stuff much more then that. I can't help feel I personally would be happy with either but I'm not as picky as some ;-)

All three of these cases are well built and would take punishment on the road but the CP1 and to only a slightly lesser extent the CP5 are simply beautiful too ...very retro...very slick looking boards. I'm not sold on the displays but they are easy to read however to my eye while looking retro also look slightly "cheap" and don't really fit with the nice polished buttons.

In conclusion ... It sounds promising but I'm not singing its praises to the really picky bunch in here just yet. I'd like to spend a few hours alone with each of them before I'd do that. But from what I heard today I'm encouraged.
Posted By: madshi Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/05/10 10:31 AM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
AP sounds ...the CP1 has 2 each of the SCM patches from the S6 and CFIII grands the CP5 has one of each. In AP (S6b -1) the sound was excellent noticeably better then my S90Xs which has the same S6 patch (a normal sample not the SCM) The Yamaha tech informed me that SCM is not sampling or modeling but rather a combination taking the best of each. The S6B SCM (1) on the CP1 was noticeably brighter then the CP5 in the mid-range but the 2nd S6 sample was a softer more traditional Yamaha sound.

So the CP5 AP sound does not match any of the CP1 sounds? How much difference is there in sound quality is between CP1, CP5 and Avant Grand AP? Do you think the CP1 is worth the added money over the CP5?

Originally Posted by Dr Popper
The pick of the bunch for me was the CP5 which has really nice strings and Clav's as well as some of the better EP's from the CP1 plus normal Yamaha range ( a lot of my S90XS's sounds were there). The CP1 has amazing EP's

Not sure what you're saying. You picked the CP5 because it has more/other sounds than the CP1? Or because it's cheaper while still having good sounds? Does the CP5 has any sounds the CP1 does not have? It would be great if you could bring some light into the sound/feature jungle. I'm totally unsure right now whether the CP5 has anything the CP1 does not have.

Thank you!

Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Aavant Grand

Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Advent Grand

<shrink mode> It seems you don't like the Avant Grand very much? grin </shrink mode>
Posted By: Kawai James Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/05/10 10:35 AM
Great review Dr. Popper!

I hope to try out the new CPs this week, if I find the time.

Five different Rhodes patches on the CP1 sounds just up my street! I wonder how they compare to the new SV-1 or the Nord Electro 3?

Cheers,
James
x
Originally Posted by madshi

So the CP5 AP sound does not match any of the CP1 sounds?


It's clear from examining the block diagrams that the AP and EP piano sounds will not sound the same, when comparing the CP1 and CP5.

Looking at the SCM Block Diagram demonstrates this.

AP: The CP1 has a preamp stage and a speaker simulator stage that he CP5 lacks.

EP: The CP1 has the simulator stag that the CP5 lacks.

Check out the bottom of the CP Comparison Chart (and the rest of the chart, for that matter) to get some clarity on the differences between the models.

Lawrence
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/05/10 11:40 AM
The CP1 has just pianos the CP5 has the most of the pianos plus a lot of other patches , strings ,clav's, guitars etc its a more full featured board rather then a specialist DP only like the C1.

Personally for me the CP5 makes more sense. If you play a lot of Acoustic then the CP1 makes more sense as it has a few more AP patches.

There is little difference in the quality of the sounds between the CP1 and CP5 they are simply different just like no two acoustic pianos are the same.

I liked the Avant Grand just fine but I also saw a couple of other boards today both DP's, GDP's and others none of which I can discuss publicly that I was more impressed with.
Posted By: Kawai James Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/05/10 12:39 PM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
I liked the Avant Grand just fine but I also saw a couple of other boards today both DP's, GDP's and others none of which I can discuss publicly that I was more impressed with.


What a tease!
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/05/10 02:39 PM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
I liked the Avant Grand just fine but I also saw a couple of other boards today both DP's, GDP's and others none of which I can discuss publicly that I was more impressed with.

You played with a Gross Domestic Product? Wasn't the country that it belongs to rather upset?

OK, I Googled it and everything & I give up: what's GDP?

You probably can't answer this, but did you see anything in the same price range as the CP50 ($1700 USD) with a better AP sound? I'd be happy with a recording quality AP in a rackmount or desktop box too.
Posted By: TTigg Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/05/10 02:45 PM
Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
I liked the Avant Grand just fine but I also saw a couple of other boards today both DP's, GDP's and others none of which I can discuss publicly that I was more impressed with.

You played with a Gross Domestic Product? Wasn't the country that it belongs to rather upset?

OK, I Googled it and everything & I give up: what's GDP?

You probably can't answer this, but did you see anything in the same price range as the CP50 ($1700 USD) with a better AP sound? I'd be happy with a recording quality AP in a rackmount or desktop box too.

I believe GDP just refers to Grand Digital Piano. I'm curious as to what these new DPs are going to do to the prices of the current CP33 (circa $1100) and CP300 $2100. Seems there may be some discounts to be had pretty soon thumb
- SC
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/05/10 03:44 PM
Originally Posted by dewster
[
You played with a Gross Domestic Product? Wasn't the country that it belongs to rather upset?

OK, I Googled it and everything & I give up: what's GDP?

You probably can't answer this, but did you see anything in the same price range as the CP50 ($1700 USD) with a better AP sound? I'd be happy with a recording quality AP in a rackmount or desktop box too.


Avant Grand,CGP-1000,CVP-409GP.etc etc .Grand digital Pianos :-)

I didn't see anything @$1700 or less that was as good (AP wise) as the CP50 but the CP was a noticeable step down from the CP5.
I did however see another interesting product (not strictly a DP) that offered a new and superior AP patch ( to current ones) that I can't discuss. I saw some other nice AP sounds in a couple of other expensive unannounced products. I didn't get long enough with any one board to reach any conclusions.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/05/10 05:41 PM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
I didn't see anything @$1700 or less that was as good (AP wise) as the CP50 but the CP was a noticeable step down from the CP5.

I'm confused. From the features comparison chart they show the CP50 with one CFIIIS SCM block. Shouldn't that block be the same patch as the one on the other two models and thus sound the same? Granted, it doesn't have the same effects chain, but I generally don't want to use compressed preamps or speaker simulations on an AP patch.
Posted By: madshi Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/05/10 06:01 PM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
The CP1 has just pianos the CP5 has the most of the pianos plus a lot of other patches , strings ,clav's, guitars etc its a more full featured board rather then a specialist DP only like the C1.

So the CP1 has "no strings attached" at all? Not even as a background layer in combination with a nice EP? I'd find that rather weak. How about the DX7 sounds? Does the CP1 have those?

Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Personally for me the CP5 makes more sense. If you play a lot of Acoustic then the CP1 makes more sense as it has a few more AP patches.

I find that a quite stupid decision on Yamaha's side. The CP1's price is so much higher than the CP5. The CP1 should have all the features the CP5 has and then some. Shouldn't Yamaha try their best to attract consumers to the most expensive model? Instead they rather seem to try not to sell the CP1.

Originally Posted by Dr Popper
I liked the Avant Grand just fine but I also saw a couple of other boards today both DP's, GDP's and others none of which I can discuss publicly that I was more impressed with.

Can you say in which time frame these other interesting (G)DPs are expected to be publically announced? Or in other words: How long should I wait before I can "safely" decide on my next DP purchase without getting immediate buyers remorse? I'm in need of a new DP, but I guess I can wait a few weeks/months, so...

Thanks!
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/05/10 06:32 PM
Originally Posted by madshi
I find that a quite stupid decision on Yamaha's side. The CP1's price is so much higher than the CP5. The CP1 should have all the features the CP5 has and then some. Shouldn't Yamaha try their best to attract consumers to the most expensive model? Instead they rather seem to try not to sell the CP1.

Agree 100%. I can only assume that after cramming all those APs and DPs into the CP1 they must have run out of space in that gold plated, diamond encrusted, platinum sample memory they only seem to use in DPs.

Originally Posted by madshi
How long should I wait before I can "safely" decide on my next DP purchase without getting immediate buyers remorse?

As soon as they make something you can barely live with, which in my case seems like it might be never.
Posted By: Kawai James Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/05/10 09:35 PM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
I did however see another interesting product (not strictly a DP) that offered a new and superior AP patch ( to current ones) that I can't discuss. I saw some other nice AP sounds in a couple of other expensive unannounced products.


Further additions to the Avant Grand range? An N1 perhaps?

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/05/10 10:19 PM
Its not the same board ...the CP1 and CP5 sound much nicer.
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/05/10 10:22 PM
To clear it up

the CP1 = V-Piano competitor
the CP5 = RD700GX competitor
the CP50= RD300GX competitor

All do the job they were designed for.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/06/10 02:13 AM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
To clear it up

the CP1 = V-Piano competitor
the CP5 = RD700GX competitor
the CP50= RD300GX competitor

All do the job they were designed for.

OK, now I'm completely confused.

If Yamaha is playing games by downgrading the supposed same sample sets from the CP1 to the CP5/50 then I'm not sure I want to buy anything from Yamaha ever again.
Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
To clear it up

the CP1 = V-Piano competitor
the CP5 = RD700GX competitor
the CP50= RD300GX competitor

All do the job they were designed for.

OK, now I'm completely confused.

If Yamaha is playing games by downgrading the supposed same sample sets from the CP1 to the CP5/50 then I'm not sure I want to buy anything from Yamaha ever again.


Huh? What's confusing? If you listed the prices for each of the above models, it makes sense. I don't think Yamaha is playing games. I do think that they should have called the CP1 something quite different from the CP5 and CP50. (Like Y-Piano and RD-700YAM and RD-300YAM).

Still confusing? Not to me!

Lawrence
Posted By: Kawai James Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/06/10 02:59 AM
It makes sense here too.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/06/10 03:36 AM
The sample sets are the same the processing is different according to the model the CP1 has higher quality processing then the CP5 which is better then the CP50 etc

Its similar to Roland's V-Piano, RD700GX , RD300GX or Kawai's MP8, MP5 etc ....

Look here for a comparison chart between the CP1,CP5 and CP50....

CP series comparison chart
Posted By: limavady Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/06/10 06:55 AM
When i look at the Andy's music link on pg 2 the decription there give me the idea that the cp5 will have 11 of the 17 scm sounds that the CP1 has and the cp50 will have 6 of those 17 scm. So the comparison chart just shown is saying that the cp5 will have 17 piano voices and the cp50 will have 12....and some of those in each case will be awm2...but again the idea I'm getting from comparing both charts is that 11 of those (on cp5) and 6 of those (on cp50) will be pure scm.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/06/10 07:09 AM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
The sample sets are the same the processing is different according to the model the CP1 has higher quality processing then the CP5 which is better then the CP50 etc

Its similar to Roland's V-Piano, RD700GX , RD300GX or Kawai's MP8, MP5 etc ....

Look here for a comparison chart between the CP1,CP5 and CP50....

CP series comparison chart

Jesus, I'm literally drowning in Yamaha marketspeak here and that damned comparison chart is part of the problem.

So because the CP1 has two SCM Piano Blocks dedicated to the CFIIIS AP, and the CP50 only has one that's supposed to mean something to me? How does one even care about the presence or absence of SCM Piano Blocks? I don't even know what they are for god's sake. All other differences in the synthesis chains between the two models looks entirely meaningless from the standpoint of an AP sample set (unless you want to do something outlandish with the natural sound of a grand piano like distort it, or compress it, or run it through an amp simulator).

But you're seriously telling me the difference between one SCM block and two is equivalent to the difference between a RD300GX and a V-Piano? Pulease...

KAWAI James, you seem to understand this and you do this for a living - can you interpret this gibberish into plain EE for me?
Posted By: Kawai James Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/06/10 07:15 AM
plain EE?

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/06/10 07:17 AM
Originally Posted by KAWAI James
plain EE?

Electrical Engineering.

OK, I'm so desperate I'll take any explanation whatsoever that even attempts to describe the utter magic going on in those crazy Yamaha SCM piano blocks. It must be clear to you how the presence of one is pure mediocrity, but two somehow get you to the cutting edge of barely-out-of-the-lab physical modeling V-Pianoisms.

Originally Posted by KAWAI James
It makes sense here too.

Please explain.

Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
Still confusing? Not to me!

Feel free to chime in here too Lawrence.

Seriously, I'm lost. Either everyone is on drugs or I'm insane.
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/06/10 09:54 AM
Originally Posted by dewster

Either everyone is on drugs or I'm insane.


Either work for me ;-)
Posted By: Kawai James Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/06/10 02:42 PM
Lol! wink
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/06/10 04:46 PM
Yea, probably the latter (for me I mean) - please excuse my impassioned posts. I'm letting Yamaha get the better of me.

Someday maybe they'll have "DP marketing hype overload" in the list of valid psychological disorders. Probably no known cure.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/08/10 03:20 AM
The public promo material for this line confirms one of my worst suspicions about the AP voices / signal chain:

From Illustrated_Guide_to_the_CP1.pdf

When an acoustic piano is played live as part of a band, the sound thereof is normally picked up using a number of microphones and then mixed in order to prevent it from being drowned out by the other instruments. As part of this process, the signal from the microphones is boosted using pre-amplifiers and its frequency characteristic is adjusted using tone control in order to realize the best possible sound for the overall ensemble. For this reason, the acoustic piano voices of the CP1 feature microphone pre-amp simulators that can be used to optimize the sound in the very same way.

Next page (CFIIIS; CF 3Band, CF 2Band):

...microphone pre-amps featuring two- or three-band tone control and perfectly tuned to the characteristics of the CFIIIS have also been included to complete the sound of this remarkable instrument.

Next page (S6B; S6 3Band, S6 2Band):

In combination with this piano voice, furthermore, you can also use a microphone pre-amp unit with two- or three-band tone control perfectly tuned to the S6B sound.


Come and see our brand new 2 and 3 band preamp tone controls! "Perfectly tuned" (WTF?) to the piano sample no less! Our engineers finally figure out how to independently adjust bass, midrange, and treble! Or just bass and treble, if you prefer that instead.

This is some of the most shamelessly empty hype I've seen lately. Quite frankly, I'm shocked to see a company like Yamaha sink this low - it makes me fundamentally question the intelligence of their management.
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/08/10 06:09 AM
You got to relax .... take a chill pill ;-)

Sounded all good to me ....
Posted By: theJourney Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/08/10 08:19 AM
No more coffee for dewster.
Is New Jersey in general one of the most agitated of today's Excited States of America?

Posted By: madshi Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/08/10 09:52 AM
Let their marketing say whatever they want. The marketing of most big companies is useless. Let's try to read the real information between the lines. For me the biggest differences between CP1 and CP5 seem to be this:

CP1:
+ more AP/EP SCM sounds
+ DX7 sounds use SCM
+ AP SCM processing has a few more steps (let's suppose they serve a "good" purpose)
+ bigger display
- twice the price of the CP5
- no extra sounds like strings (or similar soft sounds for background layers) at all

CP5:
+ half the CP1 price, but same action and near in AP/EP sound quality
+ all the usual extra sounds like strings etc
- less AP/EP SCM sounds
- DX7 sounds use conventional sampling technique, only
- AP SCM processing is a bit less capable compared to CP1
- smaller display

Personally, I think the CP1 should only have one "-", namely the much higher price. The 2nd "-" sucks balls big time, IMHO.
Originally Posted by madshi


CP1:
We could add:
- useless pitch bend (no actual sounds on the board that need pitch bend)

CP5:
+ half the CP1 price, but same action and near in AP/EP sound quality

It's not clear on what "near in AP/EP sound quality" actually means, until an A/B test can be done.


Originally Posted by dewster
The public promo material for this line confirms one of my worst suspicions about the AP voices / signal chain:


Why is "tone control" a bad thing?
Originally Posted by dewster

Someday maybe they'll have "DP marketing hype overload" in the list of valid psychological disorders. Probably no known cure.


I for one, am going to have a giggle when "dewster" ends up buying one of these new Yamaha stage pianos. Just sayin' . . .
Posted By: M. Doege Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/08/10 11:34 AM
Originally Posted by dewster

Come and see our brand new 2 and 3 band preamp tone controls! "Perfectly tuned" (WTF?) to the piano sample no less! Our engineers finally figure out how to independently adjust bass, midrange, and treble! Or just bass and treble, if you prefer that instead.


If their "tone control" is nothing more than a 2- or 3-band equalizer I would agree it's not a very impressive feature. More or less every radio has those controls...
Posted By: madshi Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/08/10 11:48 AM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
We could add:
- useless pitch bend (no actual sounds on the board that need pitch bend)

Well, I don't have much of a problem with superfluous features. I have a much bigger problem with missing features.

Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
It's not clear on what "near in AP/EP sound quality" actually means, until an A/B test can be done.

Dr Popper made an A/B test - though only a very short one. But it's the only thing we have right now and he stated:

Quote
There is little difference in the quality of the sounds between the CP1 and CP5 they are simply different just like no two acoustic pianos are the same.

Quote
both were more then acceptable (to my ear) and sounded better then the Advent Grand we played as well
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/08/10 02:25 PM
Originally Posted by madshi

CP1:
- no extra sounds like strings (or similar soft sounds for background layers) at all

Exactly. When is top-of-the-line not top-of-the-line? If I'm paying top dollar, I want the kitchen sink model. Couldn't they have left out the (probably fairly expensive) three-level backlit YAMAHA logo and instead given me all of the (essentially free) extra sounds instead?

The lack of the extra sounds is most likely what would keep me from buying the CP1. The heck of it is, it's probably as trivial as commenting in/out a few INCLUDE statements in the code.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/08/10 02:34 PM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
Why is "tone control" a bad thing?

It's not, in and of itself. But they waste a lot of space in a big glossy multi-page full color promo, something that doesn't have much text in the first place, crowing about their precious new 2 and 3 band tone controls. If this is some kind of Chewbacca defense, then what are they hiding / defending?

It's like the brochure for a new car not telling you how many pistons are in the engine or whether the transmission is manual or automatic - but then going on and on about how it rolls around on these special things called tires, and how the cigarette lighter is totally innovative.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/08/10 02:37 PM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
I for one, am going to have a giggle when "dewster" ends up buying one of these new Yamaha stage pianos. Just sayin' . . .

Oh, I'm not saying that won't happen, it could. But Yamaha is doing their level best to completely turn me off to this line by being so coy with real technical details, yet at the same time being so strangely fixated on minor BS details.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/08/10 02:48 PM
Originally Posted by theJourney
No more coffee for dewster.

Ha ha!

Originally Posted by theJourney
Is New Jersey in general one of the most agitated of today's Excited States of America?

I'm just a transplant here, but have noticed that New Jerseyans in general tend to speak their minds. I guess it's catching.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/08/10 03:53 PM
I'm noticing a correlation in the promo material.

From the promo material I linked to, they show a piano block as a container for "Piano type" and "Pre-Amplifer".

From the table mentioned earlier, the CP1 has the number two in the "SCM Piano Blocks <Piano sounds>" in the CFIIIS column.

In the AP sound descriptions, the subtitle for CFIIIS is "CF 3Band, CF 2Band".

I think the only difference between these two AP patches in the CP1 is the preamp block, which contains the magic tone controls. In other words, the sample is the same, but the preamp is either 2 or 3 band.

I would guess (and am hoping, actually) that the CFIIIS sample in the CP50 is one or the other (2 or 3 band preamp, I don't really care which) but otherwise the same as in the CP1.

Why are simple tone controls being given the lofty status as sole differentiator between entire AP patches?
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/08/10 04:28 PM
I wouldn't call them simple tone controls ....
Your just going to have to wait to play these boards...
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/08/10 07:28 PM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
I wouldn't call them simple tone controls ....

Please don't think that I'm trying to be accusatory, but did you play with the tone controls at all? If they are more than simple tone controls I'm all ears. I mean, you're saying they're not, what information do you have that makes you say that?
Posted By: ElmerJFudd Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/08/10 10:02 PM
For those of you are hungry for more info on the CP1.
There are some videos up on Keyboard Magazine's site.

http://www.keyboardmag.com/article/yamaha-cp-1-stage/December-2009/105233

There are a few things about this instrument that are immediately appealing for the gigging keyboard player/pianist even before playing it.

1. The focus of this instrument is on bread and butter sounds that we call up over and over again. It's nice to see Yamaha blow their own horn a bit in the sound set, as the CP70/80 and the DX7's electric pianos do indeed deserve a place along side the Rhodes (MkI and beyond, modded or otherwise) and Wurlitzer type keyboards. The S6B and CFIIIS are instruments worthy of sampling (although since Yamaha owns Bosendorfer, it would be nice to start seeing something develop from that acquisition). They certainly appear to have kicked it up a notch with the wooden keys and new action. Regardless of what is being done through samples or modeling, I am sure we can all agree that musicality is most important. How does it actually sound and play. We shall see.

2. The focus on signal path shows that Yamaha has been paying attention to what electromechanical players actually do. Preamp mods, fx inserts, tube amps, and reverb/echo fx are all a part of the culture. Tweaking these settings with knobs is the method of choice. Getting away from excessively deep hierarchies when tweaking parameters is a must for many players. I dare say that turning a knob to get more or less distortion just feels good. These days instruments are by and large a PC in a box anyway, so the key to continuing to make hardware relevant is in the design and user interface. Nord knows this, and apparently Korg has an inkling too as their SV-1 suggests.

3. I think the CP1,5,50 will compete with the SV-1 and the both of them clearly are making a play for Nord's business. For those that like the Nord Electro, I would argue that although the sound set is quite nice, and their user interface for the organ model is inventive (and the light weight is nice when you need to walk across Manhattan for a show) it just feels lousy to actually play for a pianist or electromechanical player. The waterfall keys are definitely for the organists, and aggressive play will knock the feather light construction right off its stand. It doesn't necessarily sound toy-like, but it sure feels it. The Nord stage is a pricey red beast, feature-filled to say the least and they are working on a Nord Piano 88. I have to imagine neither of these are aesthetically appealing to most here at pianoworldforums. But perhaps how they sound makes up for it. wink I don't think we really want the CP1 to weigh as much as a CP80, but again, I am sure pianists will agree, we expect a piano to sit still regardless of what cruelty we impose upon it. Besides, if you really must drag it across town, the 5 or 50 are a bit on the lighter side perhaps.

4. Aesthetics. The tolex case with wood ends is quite sexy for the vintage market. It makes the SV-1's styling look 2000 and late. Although, the SV-1's interface in general is very appealing (knobs and buttons galore, and of course their trademark glowing tube - is it even actually in the signal path?). The CP1's audience side is looks quite fit, don't you think? It looks like they took some design pointers from their motorcycle division. Those Yamaha and CP1 logos could be on a chopper, and backlit no less! We're living in a very superficial world, my friends. Looks are everything. wink

I'll have a chance to actually sit down and play the CP1 at NAMM. I'll report back.
Attention!

Go to http://www.yamahasynth.com/downloads/manuals/ and select

Stage Pianos / CP1 / Japanese as the search criteria.


The first item it will find is CP1 DATA LIST - and it is in English!

The second item is the USER MANUAL, but it is in Japanese.
O crap. What HAVE I done? "dewster" is going to read the CP1 Data List and start/continue/ramp up the ranting and the raving!

Seriously, though. Does make for some interesting reading.

Lawrence
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/09/10 01:02 AM
Patch 5 is the nicest .... its about the best AP patch I've played on a DP.
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/09/10 01:07 AM
Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
I wouldn't call them simple tone controls ....

Please don't think that I'm trying to be accusatory, but did you play with the tone controls at all? If they are more than simple tone controls I'm all ears. I mean, you're saying they're not, what information do you have that makes you say that?


No I just played the standard patches ... but they were fine and there were no amp artifacts in the sound. As I said the only thing I could hear that MAY have been slightly off was a barely noticeable artifact on the decay and I can't even be sure I heard that it was so subtle it certainly wasn't any looping or stretching you hear on some other boards. That was it everything else sounded fine to my ears.
So, that's "Lush Piano"?
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/09/10 02:10 AM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
No I just played the standard patches ... but they were fine and there were no amp artifacts in the sound. As I said the only thing I could hear that MAY have been slightly off was a barely noticeable artifact on the decay and I can't even be sure I heard that it was so subtle it certainly wasn't any looping or stretching you hear on some other boards. That was it everything else sounded fine to my ears.

I was asking about the tone controls, which you said aren't simple tone controls. What about the tone controls and why aren't they simple?
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/09/10 02:25 AM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
O crap. What HAVE I done? "dewster" is going to read the CP1 Data List and start/continue/ramp up the ranting and the raving!

Too late!

From the MIDI parameters, the 3 band is the standard lo, mid, mid freq, hi EQ thing on just about every cheap mixer worth it's salt. The 2 band is lo, lo freq, hi, hi freq, which is more parametric I guess, but who really cares.

Mystery solved. Entire freakin' patches, (oh, excuse me, PIANO BLOCKS) wasted on EQ. Entire paragraphs in their glossy promo materials wasted on EQ. Unbelievable.

The state rests its case Your Honor. We find Yamaha guilty of depraved lameness.
Posted By: theJourney Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/09/10 07:32 AM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
So, that's "Lush Piano"?


Until now we had to make do with lush pianists...
Originally Posted by dewster


Mystery solved. Entire freakin' patches, (oh, excuse me, PIANO BLOCKS) wasted on EQ. Entire paragraphs in their glossy promo materials wasted on EQ. Unbelievable.



However, if the AP sounds are accurate (sampling), and highly playable (modeling) who cares how they do it? I'm interested in the CP1 because it may sound better (more accurate) than V-Piano, but I will only seriously consider it if it plays as well as the V-Piano.

I'll have to be convinced on both points buy playing the CP1 myself.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/09/10 10:36 PM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
However, if the AP sounds are accurate (sampling), and highly playable (modeling) who cares how they do it?

Well, if it's traditional sample compression then the size of the sample set is very important as it dictates how far into the decay looping begins. If it is non-traditional sample compression then, I agree, it can matter less as to how they do it.

Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
I'm interested in the CP1 because it may sound better (more accurate) than V-Piano, but I will only seriously consider it if it plays as well as the V-Piano.

I'll have to be convinced on both points buy playing the CP1 myself.

I'm very interested in this line myself, hence my agitation at the deceptive way Yamaha is explaining things. If EQ is such a huge thing in their literature, then can the sample compression be very new? The odd focus leads me to believe it isn't, which would disappoint me - but, yeah, time will tell.
Posted By: Kawai James Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/09/10 10:45 PM
I popped into the main Yamaha store in town yesterday, however as I rather expected, the new CP instruments were unfortunately not on display.

I had a brief play on their Avant Grand though - quite impressive.

The store clerk I spoke to believed the CP1 and CP5 were available at one of the chain music stores in an out-of-town shopping mall. I'll try to head over there later today.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Moose Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/10/10 05:33 PM
Hi guys, let me quickly introduce myself:

Going on 30, music professional, working for Yamaha Music Europe, playing a damn lot of music in different setting: solo, funk, soul, classical,...

Wanted to let you all know my experience with the new CP1. I played on it a long time ago when it was still in prototype phase and LOVED it immediately. Touch, response, sound, all perfect to me. I owned a CP300 at that time and found the new CP1 a major improvement. A few months ago when first production started I played it again and then decided to get one. It should arrive sometime this week, I'll keep you posted.

My other gear: Fantom G7, Hammond XK2 with Neo Instruments Ventilator, Leslie 815. Grand piano Kawai GE-1.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/10/10 05:49 PM
Originally Posted by Pedro Gordts
working for Yamaha Music Europe

So, what's the deal between the CP1/5/50? Is the CFIII patch the same on all of them? Or is that sample set somehow inferior on the CP50?

Do you have any technical information to share, such as whether the the CP line sample compression utilizes stretching, looping, and/or layering (i.e. old-school junk) or something completely new? I'm very interested in this line but your company is publishing technically vague promo materials for it that I find more annoying than informative.

Oh yeah, I forgot, welcome!
Posted By: Rille Stark Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/10/10 05:49 PM
Welcome to Piano World Moose! smile
Posted By: theJourney Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/10/10 06:21 PM
Welcome Moose. Good to have more industry insiders posting here!
Posted By: ElmerJFudd Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/10/10 07:10 PM
Just as a price comparison for what is available right now in the US...

Yamaha CP50, $1,699.99
Kawai MP8II, $1,899.97
Korg SV-1 88, $2,199.97
Yamaha CP300, $2,199.99
Yamaha S90XS, $2,399.99
Roland RD700GX, $2,599.97
Yamaha CP5, $2,599.99
Kurzweil PC3X, $2,995.97
Nord Stage EX 88, $3,499.97
Yamaha CP1, $4,999.00
Roland V-Piano, $5,999.97

So, what does the CP1 compete with? Dewster's point is well taken. At $4999 the CP1 is clearly priced out of the mid-range and thus should be offering some technological advancements. Most would agree that Nord in general is overpriced from a purely hardware standpoint, but they do have some black magic going on under the hood. How will Nord price the forthcoming Nord Piano?

The CP1 undercuts the V-Piano significantly. So, perhaps the CP1 is not intended to be Yamaha's case study in modeling (not meant to compete with the V-Piano). From a style standpoint, The CP1 appears to reach out to the same audience as the SV-1 with the CP5 closest in price. One thing is for sure, the CP50 is priced aggressively.
Originally Posted by Moose
Hi guys, let me quickly introduce myself:

Going on 30, music professional, working for Yamaha Music Europe, playing a damn lot of music in different setting: solo, funk, soul, classical,...


Welcome to Piano World. Mostly a great bunch here, but the odd member drinks far too much coffee!

To avoid confusion, we should call you YAMAHA Moose!

Lawrence
Posted By: Kawai James Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/10/10 09:42 PM
Welcome to the forum Moose!

Soul and funk you say? Good stuff - a man after my own heart! wink

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/11/10 01:18 AM
Crap. I hope I didn't scare him off by being too inquisitive about the products his company makes.
Originally Posted by dewster
Crap. I hope I didn't scare him off by being too inquisitive about the products his company makes.


Doubt it. He'll probably ignore your questions if he either can't on won't answer! Or he'll search for all posts by "dewster", and run, Forest, run . . !

I did try to warn him about a coffee swilling maniac on the forum . . .

I'm hoping Yamaha will release the full manual (in English) when Winter NAMM 2010 becomes a reality, and some excellent demos of the AP, with slow, long notes, high quality, and no one yapping over the top.

Now I should wake up, 'cause I'm dreaming, at least about the demos part.

Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/11/10 02:09 AM
Dewster, you're the least scary guy here...we all know you're an old softy.

Sold my Avant Grand yesterday...made a little bit on it actually...the guy, Lowell, who would only play acoustics (he was the guy we blindfolded) bought it...I bought a pair of Bose L1 speaker systems so I can play in stereo....gonna start giggin' again...I'm looking forward to the CP-5 (or CP-1) and how it compares to the CP-300.

Snazzy
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/11/10 02:43 AM
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
Sold my Avant Grand yesterday

Has anyone checked the temperature in heck lately?
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/11/10 02:48 AM
Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
Sold my Avant Grand yesterday

Has anyone checked the temperature in heck lately?


I'll see if I can set up a séance to contact my former mother-in-law...she'd know. wink

Snazzy
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer

Sold my Avant Grand yesterday...


OK. Now I'm really, really confused. Is it backwards day? Has the world ended? (Never saw that one coming!)
Posted By: Kawai James Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/11/10 02:57 AM
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
Sold my Avant Grand yesterday...made a little bit on it actually...


Wow, now that's what I call a play-test! wink

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/11/10 03:03 AM
James, I got the Avant Grand for roughly dealer cost...we sold several on my demos alone...Lowell made me an offer I couldn't refuse...he's happy, and so am I.

I'm going to go for the nest iteration of the Avant Grand...remember, it is the beginning of a series.

Snazzy
Posted By: Moose Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/11/10 08:15 AM
Originally Posted by dewster
Crap. I hope I didn't scare him off by being too inquisitive about the products his company makes.


Nah, you'll have to try harder to scare me off...

Can't answer your questions though... I said I was working for Yamaha Music, but not for Stage Piano's, so I know just as many details about the new CP-line as you do (and probably even less :-) )

Only advice I can give you: wait forming your opinion until you've played them all. A comparison between CP1/5/50 will answer your questions easily.
I know I've made my choice by comparing them. CP1 it is.
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/11/10 09:21 AM
Yeah CP1 is great but the CP5 is more versatile .... CP50 is ....well I dunno what it is really ...
Posted By: madshi Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/11/10 01:05 PM
Originally Posted by Moose
I know I've made my choice by comparing them. CP1 it is.

Can you comment on which advantages of the CP1 made you favor the CP1 over the CP5? I'm sure most/all of us would appreciate a detailed description of your impressions. Thanks! smile
Posted By: RDW Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/11/10 01:11 PM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
CP50 is ....well I dunno what it is really ...


Affordable?
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/11/10 01:38 PM
Yeah its more .... "Affordable" sleep
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/11/10 04:34 PM
Originally Posted by Moose
Nah, you'll have to try harder to scare me off...

Here goes nothing ;-)

Originally Posted by Moose
Can't answer your questions though... I said I was working for Yamaha Music, but not for Stage Piano's, so I know just as many details about the new CP-line as you do (and probably even less :-) )

Only advice I can give you: wait forming your opinion until you've played them all. A comparison between CP1/5/50 will answer your questions easily.
I know I've made my choice by comparing them. CP1 it is.

I'm not trying to beat you up - I certainly would appreciate any information you can give, and I understand how working for a large, publicly traded company can tie your hands.

But all you've done so far is tease us, which I feel is rather cruel. Your post is like Roger Ebert giving a thumbs up/down with no review attached - what are we to make of it? And you work for Yamaha which confuses things even more.

OK, here's the thing. Many of us here are mainly interested in the CFIII patch (and to a lesser degree the S6 patch). All the other EPs, sounds, preamps, effects, wooden/plastic keys, vacuum fluorescent displays, glowing logos, etc. are just icing on the cake. The CFIII appears on all models in this line. Since you have compared them, can you at least tell us if the CFIII patch is the same on all three?

I don't think that is asking too much. I mean, revealing that shouldn't cause Yamaha's stock to go into the toilet. And I'm not a competitor asking this, I'm a fairly loyal customer who regularly recommends Yamaha keyboards to piano students. Shouldn't that count for something?
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/11/10 05:02 PM
My Yamaha clinician buddy in Canada, Ian, had to sign an NDA agreement (non-disclosure) so I imagine Moose might be in the same situation.

Snazzy
Posted By: madshi Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/11/10 06:32 PM
There seem to be some short demo songs up here:

http://www.yamahasynth.com/products/stage_pianos/cp1/

Not sure if they were up before already, just noticed them the first time. *Damn*, I like that DX7 sound (last one in the list)! I'd really like to know how much better the SCM DX7 sounds of the CP1 are, compared to the sampled-only DX7 sounds in the CP50.

Anybody going to NAMM? Could you please compare the DX7 sounds of CP1 vs. CP50? That should be a good indication of how well SCM works.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/11/10 08:07 PM
Originally Posted by madshi
*Damn*, I like that DX7 sound (last one in the list)! I'd really like to know how much better the SCM DX7 sounds of the CP1 are, compared to the sampled-only DX7 sounds in the CP50.

Anybody going to NAMM? Could you please compare the DX7 sounds of CP1 vs. CP50? That should be a good indication of how well SCM works.

According to the MIDI parameter list, you don't have any real control over the FM operator count, configuration, mixing, etc. All they give you is four patches ("variations" in the video) and some extremely limited twiddle room. Meh.

They could have easily thrown a real DX7, or even better an FS1r, in there. The tons of patches floating around the web would have made it really useful. Ever read the patents on those things? The DX7 was a model of efficiency in hardware requiring no multiplications (they did it all with logs).
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/11/10 08:13 PM
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
My Yamaha clinician buddy in Canada, Ian, had to sign an NDA agreement (non-disclosure) so I imagine Moose might be in the same situation.

Yea, but an NDA is for two companies that enter into a limited technology sharing arrangement.

I'm a very interested consumer who can't even get the time of day out of Yamaha.
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/11/10 08:28 PM
Originally Posted by dewster
I'm a very interested consumer who can't even get the time of day out of Yamaha.


Nah...they ain't gonna tell you anything on a public forum.

You'll just have to wait like the rest of the interested consumers and try one.

Are you seriously considering getting one? If so, which model?

I heard the CP-1 is a real gem. The CF-III sample/model is supposedly awesome.

Be patient...they'll no doubt sell all they can make.

Snazzy
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/11/10 08:49 PM
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
Nah...they ain't gonna tell you anything on a public forum.

All I want to know is if the CFIII patch is the same across models. That doesn't seem like proprietary information at all.

Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
You'll just have to wait like the rest of the interested consumers and try one.

I fully intend to try one. But how many will I have to try to know which one I should buy in order to get a good CFIII sample? I'd have to have all three in a quiet room with a MIDI sequencer to see if the patches are identical enough, almost no chance of that. heck just finding ONE in a noisy Sam Ash / Guitar Center in operating condition (plugged in, etc) will be a stretch. Yamaha seems to be going out of their way to make my shopping experience something of a nightmare.

On the other hand, if I can find the CP1 somewhere (fat chance) and the CFIII sounds lame on it, I guess I can scratch this whole line off the list and go back to the waiting game.

Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
Are you seriously considering getting one? If so, which model?

I have my eye on the CP50 due to the plastic keys, lighter weight, lower cost, and extra sounds (compared to the CP1). I don't really need the EPs, but do need church/chapel organs & strings & such - I hope there are some in there.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/11/10 09:17 PM
You know, I'm rather shocked that Yamaha publishes the MIDI implementation for their keyboards.

They "give away" more info in there than you would ever be able to pry out of any of their employees in a million years.
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/11/10 09:32 PM
Yes, they are rather free with all that info...must be because people rarely use MIDI anymore wink.

I'm in no hurry...I'll pick up one of the next generation Avant Grands when they come out...made nearly enough selling mine to buy a CP-1, although, like you, I'd like to have more than just piano sounds (one of my only beefs with the AG) so I might be more tempted by the CP-5.

I seriously doubt if the CF-III sample is the same for all models...that would be against the rules.

Snazzy
Posted By: Moose Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/11/10 10:22 PM
Ok, here goes.

Please, all of you, bear in mind timezones differ, the times you guys are in here, I'm trying to catch some sleep, ok?

Impatience is one, but please, let's stay reasonable. Dewster, please, stop drinking so much coffee ;-)

A few things I can tell you.

NO, CFIII is ofcourse not the same for CP1/5/50.

Main difference is the amount of blocks the "SCM" is based on, I'll give you the figures:
CP1: Spectral Component Modeling System based on 5 system blocks: piano (AP, EP, FM), pre-amp, modulation effect, power amplifier/compression, speaker simulator.
CP5: SCMS based on 4 system blocks: piano (AP, EP), Pre-amp, mod. effect, power amp./compression
CP50: SCMS based on 3 system blocks: piano (AP, EP), pre-amp, mod. effect.

Other specs I can give you, and next to previous specs these explain why I chose for the CP1

CP1: Piano types (17) have unique sound enhancement: damper resonance, hammer stiffness, striking position,...
A real FM engine is used for DX piano
5 band master EQ

This is A LOT of info to help you all choosing one of these amazing instruments, but please, if you can, try them. Might as well be that you prefer CP5 better, or the CP50... As the French say: Les goûts et les couleurs ne se discutent pas.

P

Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/11/10 10:48 PM
Don't mind Dewster he's a bit manic but we still love him ;-)
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/11/10 11:01 PM
Originally Posted by Moose
NO, CFIII is ofcourse not the same for CP1/5/50.

Main difference is the amount of blocks the "SCM" is based on, I'll give you the figures:
CP1: Spectral Component Modeling System based on 5 system blocks: piano (AP, EP, FM), pre-amp, modulation effect, power amplifier/compression, speaker simulator.
CP5: SCMS based on 4 system blocks: piano (AP, EP), Pre-amp, mod. effect, power amp./compression
CP50: SCMS based on 3 system blocks: piano (AP, EP), pre-amp, mod. effect.

OK, and thanks, but like I said I really don't care about pre-amp (EQ), modulation effect, power amplifier/compression, or speaker simulator for the CFIII. Except for some mild EQ, virtually no one is interested in effects on a grand piano sample.

Originally Posted by Moose
CP1: Piano types (17) have unique sound enhancement: damper resonance, hammer stiffness, striking position,...

Yes, but all I care about is how this relates to the CFIII sample. From the MIDI implementation for the CP1 I see decay & release time, key-off level, damper resonance level, and five levels of hammer stiffness. What parameters of those I just listed are in the CP50?

Originally Posted by Moose
A real FM engine is used for DX piano

No disrespect, but one wouldn't know it from the skimpy MIDI implementation. When I hear DX7 I think of all the DX7 patches I might want to use. Which I evidently can't use on the CP1.

Originally Posted by Moose
This is A LOT of info to help you all choosing one of these amazing instruments, but please, if you can, try them. Might as well be that you prefer CP5 better, or the CP50... As the French say: Les goûts et les couleurs ne se discutent pas.

I don't want the tastes or colors to describe themselves, I just want to know if the fundamental CFIII sample in the CP1 is the same as in the CP50. Forget about the effects chain.

Here it is in French: Je veux savoir juste si l'échantillon fondamental de CFIII dans le CP1 est le même comme dans le CP50.
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/11/10 11:23 PM
Ok I think your approaching this from the wrong angle completely ...

The sound produced by ANY keyboard is the SUM OF ITS PARTS and that means sample PLUS effects chain. Without the effects chain you are not going to hear anything like a reasonable piano sound.

Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/11/10 11:37 PM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Ok I think your approaching this from the wrong angle completely ...

The sound produced by ANY keyboard is the SUM OF ITS PARTS and that means sample PLUS effects chain. Without the effects chain you are not going to hear anything like a reasonable piano sound.

If you're talking EPs, sure, absolutely.

But when it comes to grand pianos, I have no interest in amp simulators, triggered wah, etc. Mild EQ (and perhaps some mild compression in a live combo situation) is as far as I would go. And that can easily be outboard, so I almost don't care if it is in my DP or not.

The sample is the thing, if that isn't good enough then nothing else matters. And we have never, ever had a good enough grand piano sample in a DP (IMO).
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/11/10 11:42 PM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Don't mind Dewster he's a bit manic but we still love him ;-)

All I desire is some very mild technical assistance in spending $1700 (or more) of my hard earned money on a product from Yamaha. Is that seriously too much to ask? I'm not being belligerent, I'm being responsible about a possible major purchase.
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/12/10 12:05 AM
Originally Posted by dewster

If you're talking EPs, sure, absolutely.

But when it comes to grand pianos, I have no interest in amp simulators, triggered wah, etc. Mild EQ (and perhaps some mild compression in a live combo situation) is as far as I would go. And that can easily be outboard, so I almost don't care if it is in my DP or not.

The sample is the thing, if that isn't good enough then nothing else matters. And we have never, ever had a good enough grand piano sample in a DP (IMO).


If its a EP playing a AP patch its NOT JUST the sample its the sample PLUS effects that makes the AP sound... we are not talking about mikeing up a AP then adding effects. We are making a AP "like" sound from a EP and that is a process that requires a lot more then a basic sample. The CP1/5/50 sound slightly different to each other because of the different processing ...the basic samples are exactly the same in each one. The original piano sample is only the base on which KB's build their sound.

Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/12/10 12:09 AM
Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Don't mind Dewster he's a bit manic but we still love him ;-)

All I desire is some very mild technical assistance in spending $1700 (or more) of my hard earned money on a product from Yamaha. Is that seriously too much to ask? I'm not being belligerent, I'm being responsible about a possible major purchase.


No I don't think your asking too much at all ( I did say we still love you didn't I ?) in fact its prudent to invest time in research before making a purchase decision but I do think your placing too much emphasis on the samples and not enough on the sound. You have to wait to play it yourself and only then will you be able to have the knowledge that allows you to make the decision to pull the trigger and buy it or not. The only way your going to know is to hear it live yourself.
Originally Posted by dewster

OK, here's the thing. Many of us here are mainly interested in the CFIII patch (and to a lesser degree the S6 patch).


I'm certainly interested in the S6 piano, and hope it is treated as wonderfully as the CFIII piano.
Originally Posted by Moose

NO, CFIII is ofcourse not the same for CP1/5/50.


Thank you. Does the same apply to the S6?

Lawrence
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/12/10 12:36 AM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
If its a EP playing a AP patch its NOT JUST the sample its the sample PLUS effects that makes the AP sound... we are not talking about mikeing up a AP then adding effects. We are making a AP "like" sound from a EP and that is a process that requires a lot more then a basic sample. The CP1/5/50 sound slightly different to each other because of the different processing ...the basic samples are exactly the same in each one. The original piano sample is only the base on which KB's build their sound.

OK, let's synchronize our terminology:

AP = Acoustic piano (a grand piano usually)
EP = Electric piano (Wurlitzer, Rhodes, DX7, etc.)
DP = Digital piano (something with weighted keys that contains AP and usually EP samples)

So, when you say "If its a EP playing a AP patch" I'm completely lost. When you say "EP" do you mean "DP" or synthesizer?

EPs and EP sample sets definitely do need a more complex effects chain. Outside of a bit of EQ and reverb, APs and AP sample sets generally need nothing (IMO).
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/12/10 12:40 AM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
I'm certainly interested in the S6 piano, and hope it is treated as wonderfully as the CFIII piano.

Since the S6 isn't in the CP50 (and I really wish it were) I'm somewhat less interested in it.

Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/12/10 12:42 AM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
I do think your placing too much emphasis on the samples and not enough on the sound.

If the sample doesn't fit, you must acquit!
Posted By: ChrisA Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/12/10 01:03 AM
Originally Posted by dewster

All I desire is some very mild technical assistance


I doubt you will find many people who know the answers. Part of rolling out a new product is training the sails and support people. I doubt that is yet done. And then the Yamaha sales reps, after they do the "CP class" will have to talk to the people in the retail stores and explain the new products. Even then I doubt any real technical details will ever be available.
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/12/10 03:09 AM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
Originally Posted by Moose

NO, CFIII is ofcourse not the same for CP1/5/50.


Thank you. Does the same apply to the S6?

Lawrence



It applies to all patches the samples are the same but the processing is different.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/12/10 03:29 AM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
Originally Posted by Moose

NO, CFIII is ofcourse not the same for CP1/5/50.


Thank you. Does the same apply to the S6?

Lawrence



It applies to all patches the samples are the same but the processing is different.

If I've got this straight, one of you is saying the basic AP (CFIII & S6) samples are the same across the line, the other is saying they aren't. Could you work this out amongst yourselves and get back to us?
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/12/10 04:20 AM
They come from the same capture ... but they sound different for reasons you don't seem to believe ;-)
Posted By: ChrisA Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/12/10 05:02 AM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
They come from the same capture ... but they sound different for reasons you don't seem to believe ;-)


This might be true. People get all hung up about the samples and how many layers. You can do a pretty simple experiment to show how important the playback can be. Just use a modern sophisticated sampler software and any instrument sample you like. One example of a software sampler is Kontakt 4 from Native Instruments. It is I'm sure the number one most commonly used sampler. Apple's EXS24 is also well used. Both of these and others like them allow great control over the sound of sample playback. Try it, connect the sampler to your MIDI keyboard and play a few notes, turn one of the virtual knobs and play again. You can do a lot to the sound. Notice that Yamaha exposes some of this to the user with buttons for "bright" and "mellow". The same sample set is used for either setting. I'm sure these buttons change parameters in the sampler playback engine. I think the keyboard setting for "hard" or "soft" works the same way. Point is the samples are only a foundation and framework, not the final sound you hear. I think NI has a "lite" version that's free. It don't take long, playing with this to see that much of the art is in the playback of the samples

I'm sure Yamaha uses techniques like what are available in common samplers to play the samples. Things like time variant filter parameters and real time envelope generators, sample looping and pitch bending. How else do they get such good sound in the P85 with just one layer.
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/12/10 08:00 AM
Indeed they do I have a very nice s700 patch in my motif XS and S90XS which I made myself using the original waveforms and the ARX Rhodes on my Fantom G8 is a very different patch to the standard but it uses the same original waveform. If you use logic and the EXS24 you can do a lot with samples and its not exactly difficult. I do not believe that given enough time and effort that a instrument exists on the planet I couldn't emulate in the studio to the point nobody could tell. That said ... I've just bought a Rhodes ...because I'm a romantic cool
Posted By: madshi Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/12/10 08:10 AM
Originally Posted by Moose
This is A LOT of info to help you all choosing one of these amazing instruments

Unfortunately, it doesn't help at all. We've already known most (all?) of that for weeks.

I appreciate you trying to explain your reasoning for choosing the CP1 over the CP5. However, what I *really* wanted to hear is your subjective impression about how the CP1 sound compares to the CP5 sound. All you've listed in your post are some technical specs, most of which we already knew. Basically, reading your post contains no information which you've collected while actually playing the CP1 vs. CP5! What we all REALLY wanted to hear, is not some technical specs, but your subjective comparison of how the CP1/5/50 actually sound in real life. Do the AP sounds in the CP1 really sound noticeably better than those in the CP5? Do the EP sounds sound noticeably better? Do the DX7 sounds sound noticeably better? If so, in what way exactly? I want your subjective description of what you experienced when playing the CP1 vs. CP5. I'm not interested in a comparison of technical specs. Any guy looking at the spec sheets can do that (myself included). You are one out of two people who actually played the CP1 vs. CP5. So please make use of that experience in your posts.

Thanks!

Let me repost Dr Popper's preview, to give you an impression about what kind of report I'd like to get from you, too:

Quote
Ok I am back from the demo with the CP1 (and the CP5, CP50) and although i only had about 10 mins with each board and couldn't record any samples I can offer a opinion of sorts.
1) Keyboard ... its very good in fact close your eyes and you simply wouldn't be able to tell. I strongly suspect its the same or a very similar keyboard that's used in the Aavant Grand series and along the same lines as the V-Piano keyboard. Both the CP1 and CP5 have this same keyboard and its good. The CP50 has a different keyboard same as the S90XS I think and its very good but not quite like the others that really do feel authentic.
2) AP sounds ...the CP1 has 2 each of the SCM patches from the S6 and CFIII grands the CP5 has one of each. In AP (S6b -1) the sound was excellent noticeably better then my S90Xs which has the same S6 patch (a normal sample not the SCM) The Yamaha tech informed me that SCM is not sampling or modeling but rather a combination taking the best of each. The S6B SCM (1) on the CP1 was noticeably brighter then the CP5 in the mid-range but the 2nd S6 sample was a softer more traditional Yamaha sound. In the short time I had to play the boards I did not notice any obvious stretching or looping even when I tried however to my ear there are still some artifacts in the decay but its doubtful you would describe them as looping its a more acoustic artifact you sometimes hear on older pianos and I cannot even be sure I didn't imagine it. It is not unpleasant or noticeable. The CP1 sounded better and more rounded in both CFIII patches then the CP5 did in its one CFIII patch but both were more then acceptable (to my ear) and sounded better then the Advent Grand we played as well. Both piano's I felt were a improvement on the already excellent S90XS S6 based AP as was the CP50 which while offering the same keyboard as the S90XS was a nicer AP sound.
3)The pick of the bunch for me was the CP5 which has really nice strings and Clav's as well as some of the better EP's from the CP1 plus normal Yamaha range ( a lot of my S90XS's sounds were there). The CP1 has amazing EP's ...great Rhodes (5 of them !) Controls look good for stage use and the CP1 offers almost infinite adjustment similar to the V-Piano. The CP5 appears to offer similar but less intricate adjustment. I didn't get into the tech stuff much more then that. I can't help feel I personally would be happy with either but I'm not as picky as some ;-)

All three of these cases are well built and would take punishment on the road but the CP1 and to only a slightly lesser extent the CP5 are simply beautiful too ...very retro...very slick looking boards. I'm not sold on the displays but they are easy to read however to my eye while looking retro also look slightly "cheap" and don't really fit with the nice polished buttons.

In conclusion ... It sounds promising but I'm not singing its praises to the really picky bunch in here just yet. I'd like to spend a few hours alone with each of them before I'd do that. But from what I heard today I'm encouraged.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/12/10 08:24 PM
Originally Posted by ChrisA
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
They come from the same capture ... but they sound different for reasons you don't seem to believe ;-)

Point is the samples are only a foundation and framework, not the final sound you hear. I think NI has a "lite" version that's free. It don't take long, playing with this to see that much of the art is in the playback of the samples

Maybe my expectations are completely unrealistic, but when three keyboards are in the same line, are released at the same time, and are marketed as very clear sets and subsets of each other - then except for things like polyphony limits and differences in the effects chain - I expect identically named patches to be pretty much identical across all units.
Posted By: theJourney Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/12/10 09:01 PM
$6000 is not equal to $1800.
If it were, $6000 would be equal to $1800.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/12/10 09:53 PM
Originally Posted by theJourney
$6000 is not equal to $1800.
If it were, $6000 would be equal to $1800.

In a market situation, price is set to maximize profit. It isn't necessarily related to the manufacturing cost. Though the wooden keys and that glowing logo undoubtedly are undoubtedly somewhat pricey items to add to a keyboard.

Look at Cassette vs. CD, or VHS vs. DVD. Tapes are more expensive to manufacture, both in materials and time, but the higher fidelity and convenience of digital optical disks command a higher purchase price, even though they are very economically just stamped out.

Yamaha is charging a premium for the more extensive feature set, partly to recoup the development NRE, and partly because they know they can as they have something of a monopoly on this unique and interesting DP.

Does it cost more than three times the CP50 to manufacture the CP1? I very much doubt it.
Posted By: alekkh Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/13/10 12:41 AM
"Does it cost more than three times the CP50 to manufacture the CP1? I very much doubt it."

not if you take patents into account. If Yamaha has to add an extra technology, a small chip, to the instrument, and there's a separate patent on this chip - here comes the 3x price tag. Nothing Yamaha could do.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/13/10 01:03 AM
Originally Posted by alekkh
"Does it cost more than three times the CP50 to manufacture the CP1? I very much doubt it."

not if you take patents into account. If Yamaha has to add an extra technology, a small chip, to the instrument, and there's a separate patent on this chip - here comes the 3x price tag. Nothing Yamaha could do.

Yamaha most likely owns the patents on the products they build. They're the 500lb gorilla in the DP room.

Also, when you buy an IC you pay for the patent when you buy the chip (it is amortized in the price).

In conclusion, they're using the same technology in all three, so there should be no price differential.
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/13/10 01:21 AM
Originally Posted by dewster
[quote=theJourney]



Does it cost more than three times the CP50 to manufacture the CP1? I very much doubt it.


No way it would cost 3 times as much to make the CP1. I'd suggest that Yamaha has priced and set up the three models to directly compete with what Roland, Korg, Nord and Kruzweil offer.

They are just being a business and selling for what they think they can get.
Its got nothing to do with what it costs them to make it.
I'd be surprised if the CP1 cost anything more then the CP5 to make.

Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/13/10 04:47 AM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
No way it would cost 3 times as much to make the CP1. I'd suggest that Yamaha has priced and set up the three models to directly compete with what Roland, Korg, Nord and Kruzweil offer.
They are just being a business and selling for what they think they can get.

I agree. It's what I would consider to be price fixing, but the accepted sort that goes on with modern capitalism.

Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Its got nothing to do with what it costs them to make it.
I'd be surprised if the CP1 cost anything more then the CP5 to make.

That glowing logo is $25 easy. It's pretty , but I for one don't want to pay for it.

I really do wish they had thrown the S6 sample in the CP50 though.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/13/10 04:49 AM
Originally Posted by Keron
I saw a funny software to help people learn music before. Its name is pianoeasy.

Welcome to my ignore list.
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/13/10 05:29 AM
Originally Posted by Keron
I saw a funny software to help people learn music before. Its name is pianoeasy.




SPAM SPAM SPAM !
Posted By: theJourney Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/13/10 09:01 AM
I didn't say anything about manufacturing cost.

In a lineup of a family of three instruments ranging from $1800 to $6000, it is unreasonable and unrealistic to expect that the $1800 instrument will offer the same feature set, value or user utility as the $6000 instrument.

Yamaha is smart, they introduce a new top of the line instrument that exudes Yamaha-ness from the tone of their top acoustic and vintage electronic instruments to the branding of their black box technology to literally putting a halo around their audience facing brand name with a very high, but competitive top of line market price.

Unlike Roland, who may be losing more business than they are gaining by not having a cheaper alternative or alternatives to their VPiano sharing the core technology, Yamaha has a way to capture sales for Yamaha. What is important in pricing policy is to make a determination of what the market will bear and who will pay for what. In fact, you might say that the demand which Roland has postponed this year ("I want a VPiano but not until they come in under $2000 and I would really like more non-piano tones") might now quite easily be harvested by Yamaha.



Posted By: madshi Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/13/10 10:26 AM
Originally Posted by theJourney
you might say that the demand which Roland has postponed this year ("I want a VPiano but not until they come in under $2000 and I would really like more non-piano tones") might now quite easily be harvested by Yamaha.

How about those (like me) who want the top model, but some non-piano tones, too? Yamaha seems to have forgotten about those...
Posted By: EssBrace Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/13/10 11:06 AM
Rumours of new models (tones) for the V-Piano this year....

Steve
Originally Posted by EssBrace
Rumours of new models (tones) for the V-Piano this year....

Steve


But first, Roland, please fix the mids of the existing two models.
Posted By: theJourney Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/13/10 12:21 PM
There is no law against buying multiple instruments. Many of us here own multiple instruments and our collections are often growing rather than shrinking. smile

The CP-1 seems to me to be positioned against the VPiano while the CP-5 is more of a RD700GX. At least the CP-5 has the same keybed as the CP-1...
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/13/10 12:38 PM
Originally Posted by theJourney
There is no law against buying multiple instruments. Many of us here own multiple instruments and our collections are often growing rather than shrinking. smile

.


your telling me ... I have no fewer then 31 keyboards ....ridiculous
Posted By: theJourney Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/13/10 12:40 PM
Wow. This deserves its own thread. I wouldn't be surprised if you won the "How many keyboards do you have in your collection?" thread!
I've probably owned 31 instruments, but only keep one or two at any given time. I used funds from instrument #1 to help pay for instrument #2 and so on. A wonderful addiction . . . !
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/13/10 01:28 PM
Originally Posted by theJourney
I didn't say anything about manufacturing cost.

Sorry, I guess I was reading between the (two) lines of your post.

Originally Posted by theJourney
In a lineup of a family of three instruments ranging from $1800 to $6000, it is unreasonable and unrealistic to expect that the $1800 instrument will offer the same feature set, value or user utility as the $6000 instrument.

I'm just hoping one of the CFIII patches is the same across all three.

One of the things that is encouraging my hope is the SCM Piano Block <Piano sounds> table in the CP1/5/50 family brochure. For the intersection of CP5/50 and DX7 they use an asterisk to tell you "DX7 sounds for CP5/CP50 are AWM2 (PCM sampled) voice" rather than SCM. If the CFIII patch were somehow inferior in the CP5/50 I would hope they would point that out too.

But they don't, hence my optimism (albeit very guarded).

Also, it would be extra work for them to somehow hobble voices based on the model. The basically lazy disposition of humans (not necessarily a bad thing) leads me to believe the patches have a chance of being the same across models.
Posted By: theJourney Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/13/10 01:41 PM
It is interesting to note that (based on the brochure) the CP5 & 50 will be limited to one patch each which is not configurable on the front end as on the CP1. I can't imagine it wouldn't sound good, it just may not be as high resolution, diverse or tweakable as on the CP1.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/13/10 02:22 PM
Originally Posted by theJourney
It is interesting to note that (based on the brochure) the CP5 & 50 will be limited to one patch each which is not configurable on the front end as on the CP1. I can't imagine it wouldn't sound good, it just may not be as high resolution, diverse or tweakable as on the CP1.

Based on the CP1 MIDI implementation, the two patches of the CF (& S6) are differentiated only by the number of EQ bands in the "preamplifier" (2 or 3).

Also, on their CP50 page, Yamaha has the following bullet items at the top:

- The core Spectral Component Modeling technology added with a wide
- Customizing totally original piano sounds

With the text:

The CP50 take the core sounds and technology of the CP1

Take from that what you will, but for me it is encouraging.
Posted By: madshi Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/13/10 08:10 PM
Originally Posted by theJourney
The CP-1 seems to me to be positioned against the VPiano while the CP-5 is more of a RD700GX.

Ah. The V-Piano has no sounds other than AP and EP, so the CP1 doesn't need other sounds, either, because it's meant to be positioned against the V-Piano. Right? And since the CP5 is positioned against the RD700GX, and the RD700GX has other sounds, Yamaha had to add other sounds to the CP5, as well. Is that what you're saying? And you actually agree with this logic?

Here's a fancy new idea: How about designing DPs with the wishes/needs of their customers in mind? I know, I'm being unrealistic here. Just thought I'd share this revolutionary new concept...
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/13/10 09:32 PM
Originally Posted by madshi
Here's a fancy new idea: How about designing DPs with the wishes/needs of their customers in mind? I know, I'm being unrealistic here. Just thought I'd share this revolutionary new concept...

Then how would the 10 layers of management between the EEs and customers justify their existence? For god's sake, think of the poor suits and their bonuses.

All the games they play with tiering lately are driving me a little crazy. Strip the product down and sell it for a somewhat fair price. Then add seemingly random groups of options back in until you have the thing everyone wants, but charge an exorbitant price for it. Offer the 10 haphazard models in between at in between prices. Spend months in meetings hammering it out via Powerpoint and email, while the EEs watch from the sidelines, wondering how the dust will settle.

In the case of the CP1 they didn't even add it all back for the top tier, which is so daring and deviously twisted that the second some mid-level weasel came up with the concept you know they just had to try it. Even if for nothing else than to mess with our heads.
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/13/10 10:49 PM
Originally Posted by dewster

Then how would the 10 layers of management between the EEs and customers justify their existence? For god's sake, think of the poor suits and their bonuses.

.


LOL this is just so TRUE its scary .....
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/13/10 10:53 PM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
I've probably owned 31 instruments, but only keep one or two at any given time. I used funds from instrument #1 to help pay for instrument #2 and so on. A wonderful addiction . . . !


My problem is I never get around to selling instrument #1 ... so I have things lying around I never use and never will but I just can't seem to part with them. And I still want more .... I really really really want a CP-80m but I cannot find one in good condition for a reasonable price.
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/13/10 11:24 PM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper


My problem is I never get around to selling instrument #1 ... so I have things lying around I never use and never will but I just can't seem to part with them. And I still want more .... I really really really want a CP-80m but I cannot find one in good condition for a reasonable price.


You know, it's strange you mention the old CP-80M...I gigged with one for quite some time...horrible low end, which was quite difficult to tune due to the shorter strings, but the instrument held it's tune overall remarkably well, but one seldom did a big concert without a tuning; at least not willingly. wink

It did a remarkably good job as an acoustic stage piano, although it was barely able to squeak under the title of "portable".

I never used the MIDI on mine...I had a Solina string machine on top of it, and my B-3 was next to it in an L configuration, and to my left...I played mostly Country music back then.

I sold mine a few years ago, after I retired; it was still in fairly good shape because I had good road cases...good CP-80M's are very rare, as the instrument was usually gigged (in place of a real grand)but you may be lucky to find one that got mostly studio work. They were very seldom purchased as a home piano.

Good luck in your search, and thanks for bringing back some good old memories.

Snazzy
Posted By: voxpops Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/13/10 11:37 PM
Played the CP-80 on a 12-month gig in a London theater back in the 80s. Loved it. It was tuned weekly, particularly as the band was positioned on the upper floor of a moving stage-set and the whole contraption shook alarmingly with each motion. Had a Jupiter-8 (if memory serves) on top. What fun!
Originally Posted by dewster
Then how would the 10 layers of management between the EEs and customers justify their existence?


I know what an ET is. What's an EE?
One more day, and perhaps the flow (trickle) of information will increase re: the CP1 / CP5 / CP50.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/14/10 12:17 AM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
I know what an ET is. What's an EE?

They are somewhat similar, in that most assume they both come from another planet.

Electrical Engineer (me).
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/14/10 01:22 AM
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer

You know, it's strange you mention the old CP-80M...I gigged with one for quite some time...horrible low end, which was quite difficult to tune due to the shorter strings, but the instrument held it's tune overall remarkably well, but one seldom did a big concert without a tuning; at least not willingly. wink
Snazzy


Yeah I sold my CP-80 (stupidly) about 1985 back then I figured with FM now running wild and sampling and sequencing beginning to really work that pretty much all traditional instruments were dinosaurs.We had just had a run of successful records and tours and we thought we knew everything there was to know about everything. I never quite got over selling it ,much like losing a beloved pet. I also sold (actually I gave them away believe it or not) my Rhodes Mk I suitcase and Mk 1 Stage 88 around the same time and I never got over that either. But I've got both of them back now plus a a shiny new Mk VII but the CP-80 has been harder to find many are trashed,parts are impossible to find and the ones in studios just don't come up for sale (they know they have a good thing thats irreplaceable). I wish it was as easy to get one as it was to get my C7 because I would have had one years ago if that was the case.
On the CP-80 sound when I played the CP1 it did have a VERY VERY good CP-80 ,best I've heard. So while the CP-80 might be dead its sound lives on quite well.
Yamaha CP1 has been posted on Yamaha Design website " Synapses":

http://www.yamaha.co.jp/design/synapses/product/list/?productId=024&lng=en

( http://www.global.yamaha.com/design/ )
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/14/10 03:36 AM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music

No disrespect to you Lawrence, and I truly appreciate the heads-up, but they seriously need to add that to www.webpagesthatsuck.com - I think they spent more engineering dollars on that web site than they do on most DPs.

Maybe it's me, but there's something very depressing about the title "Déjà vu... but new!" There is so little real innovation going on in the electronic music field right now. We keep falling back on emulations of things like the DX7, CP80, etc. which is fine - it was the golden age of EPs and synths and all - but where is the next big thing? If I see one more "virtual analog synth" I swear I'm going to hurl...
Posted By: ChrisA Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/14/10 03:57 AM
Originally Posted by dewster

Maybe it's me, but there's something very depressing about the title "Déjà vu... but new!" There is so little real innovation going on in the electronic music field right now. We keep falling back on emulations of things like the DX7, CP80, etc. which is fine - it was the golden age of EPs and synths and all - but where is the next big thing? If I see one more "virtual analog synth" I swear I'm going to hurl...


I have to agree the sampling of an analog synth is stupid. But real analog synths aren't. They allow you to be creative and make sounds never before heard. A virtual analog synth can do the same thing.

If you are looking for innovation you are just not looking in the right place. It's all moved to computers.

But I'd like to see new kinds of keyboard too. Maybe the keys that can slide backwards and forwards to allows vibrato and note bending combine that with an analog synth ad also could play samples. What about keys with touch sensitive surfaces like the track pad on a notebook computer. A hundred things they might do, but no just samples of 50 year old Rhodes and B3s
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/14/10 04:26 AM
Originally Posted by dewster

No disrespect to you Lawrence, and I truly appreciate the heads-up, but they seriously need to add that to www.webpagesthatsuck.com - I think they spent more engineering dollars on that web site than they do on most DPs.



ROTFLMAO !!!!! Thats the funniest sh!t I've seen all day ...... so true , so stark so ...... hilariously bad how did Yamaha think that this rubbish would promote their DESIGN ??? Thats the worst crap ever !!!!
LOL
Posted By: ElmerJFudd Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/14/10 04:45 AM
Quote
Maybe it's me, but there's something very depressing about the title "Déjà vu... but new!" There is so little real innovation going on in the electronic music field right now. We keep falling back on emulations of things like the DX7, CP80, etc. which is fine - it was the golden age of EPs and synths and all - but where is the next big thing? If I see one more "virtual analog synth" I swear I'm going to hurl...


Dewster, I would have thought you've nothing but bile left to hurl. After all, certainly enough time has been spent on recreating the sound of an acoustic piano... I mean, the instrument is over 300 years old and you clearly lust for the ultimate digital replica (as do I). wink

With that said, there is clearly a reason why we pursue this endeavor. The same reason why you would want to have the sound of the DX7, Wurlitzer, CP80, etc. at your fingertips (including modeling the preamps, fx stages, and amplifiers). Because these instruments sound great. We love the pieces/songs that were written for them. I'd like to own them all, but the technological advancement is of course getting "those sounds" and "that feel" without owning them all.

I do agree, however, that recent advancements in modeling technology are leading us toward more expressive instruments. However, many of the current products (like Pianoteq and the V-Piano) do not necessarily sound better than a really well done sample library (I own VintAudio's C7 as well for EXS24). Perhaps the better solution right now is in fact a hybrid instrument offering the benefits of both sample libraries and modeling technology. A hybrid approach of sorts yielded Yamaha's AvantGrand, an instrument that caught the attention of many people on this forum.
Originally Posted by dewster

No disrespect to you Lawrence, and I truly appreciate the heads-up, but they seriously need to add that to www.webpagesthatsuck.com - I think they spent more engineering dollars on that web site than they do on most DPs.


I had only found the site last night, and then posted the link, 'cause it was bedtime.

When I checked it out this morning, including having my monitors turned on, I was left scratched my head. I thought it would hopefully offer some additional information about the CP1. Unless I'm missing something it just seems to be a few pictures, with a bit of lame background audio. Huh?

(Maybe I'm not navigating the site properly, but either way, I'm still left with huh?)

Lawrence
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/14/10 01:07 PM
I'll second that "huh", Lawrence...t'would be nice if they'd give us more info and more sound samples, but I believe this is just Yamaha's way of teasing us.

We'll have to get the Dewster medicated. wink

Snazzy
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/14/10 02:22 PM
Originally Posted by ChrisA
If you are looking for innovation you are just not looking in the right place. It's all moved to computers.

Oh, I know, and thanks. I'm just feeling extra cranky for some reason.

Originally Posted by ChrisA
But I'd like to see new kinds of keyboard too. Maybe the keys that can slide backwards and forwards to allows vibrato and note bending combine that with an analog synth ad also could play samples. What about keys with touch sensitive surfaces like the track pad on a notebook computer.

Bob Moog thought of these two things decades ago. He felt the sound side of synths had largely been done, but the controller part had a long way to go. I completely agree with that, and have become much more interested in innovative controller design than synthesis. There's no need for a key to be anywhere near a string or soundboard, no specific need for keys as we know them. So where are all the new controllers?

What passes for radical innovation these days is that stupid D-Beam festooning otherwise numbingly insipid fare. Which of course leads to NAMM videos with much waving of hands and other embarrassments.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/14/10 03:28 PM
Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
acoustic piano... I mean, the instrument is over 300 years old and you clearly lust for the ultimate digital replica (as do I). wink

I'm really not on a snipe hunt. I don't need an ultimate piano sample, just a sufficiently decent and realistic one not residing on a PC.

Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
With that said, there is clearly a reason why we pursue this endeavor. The same reason why you would want to have the sound of the DX7, Wurlitzer, CP80, etc. at your fingertips (including modeling the preamps, fx stages, and amplifiers). Because these instruments sound great. We love the pieces/songs that were written for them. I'd like to own them all, but the technological advancement is of course getting "those sounds" and "that feel" without owning them all.

The field of synthesis has become overly corporate, and so the rate of real innovation has slowed to a crawl. It now appears to be entirely content with simply mining the past.

Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
Perhaps the better solution right now is in fact a hybrid instrument offering the benefits of both sample libraries and modeling technology. A hybrid approach of sorts yielded Yamaha's AvantGrand, an instrument that caught the attention of many people on this forum.

I don't see the AvantGrand as a hybrid, or anything innovative at all. It's just a souped up Clavinova with buttkickers.
Posted By: Rille Stark Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/14/10 06:40 PM
Review from The Keyboard Corner by David Bryce :

Yamaha CP1 first impressions


Peace
Originally Posted by dewster

I don't see the AvantGrand as a hybrid, or anything innovative at all. It's just a souped up Clavinova with buttkickers.


Agreed.
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/14/10 11:06 PM
Originally Posted by dewster
I don't see the AvantGrand as a hybrid, or anything innovative at all. It's just a souped up Clavinova with buttkickers.
Yeah. But I hear it really kicks butt! smile smile
Originally Posted by MacMacMac

But I hear it really kicks butt! smile


Out of your pocket book . . . !
NAMM CP1 Video on youtube. Typical. 1,000 of quickly played notes, captured through a video cam mic. Useless.
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/14/10 11:27 PM
The Avant Grand was the best feeling and sounding digital I've ever played, especially with the tactile feedback....however, for the price, it should have had more sounds(especially strings) and it should have had audio to USB recording.

It certainly had far more "soul" than the V-Piano, and perhaps even the new CP-l.

The CP-5 seems to be the best all-rounder, and still has that new wooden action.

Still, if all you want is a terrific piano sound and incredible tactile feedback that is as close to playing an acoustic grand as it gets, the Avant Grand is still the ticket to ride.

Snazzy
Posted By: theJourney Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/15/10 09:32 AM
I bet the CP-5 is the unit that will sell the most.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/15/10 03:09 PM
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
Still, if all you want is a terrific piano sound and incredible tactile feedback that is as close to playing an acoustic grand as it gets, the Avant Grand is still the ticket to ride.

Sorry Snazz, I'm sure it's more than the sum of its parts and a great play.

I just figured, with you having sold yours and all, that the thrill was gone and it was fair game to take pot-shots at again.
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/15/10 03:59 PM
Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
Still, if all you want is a terrific piano sound and incredible tactile feedback that is as close to playing an acoustic grand as it gets, the Avant Grand is still the ticket to ride.

Sorry Snazz, I'm sure it's more than the sum of its parts and a great play.

I just figured, with you having sold yours and all, that the thrill was gone and it was fair game to take pot-shots at again.


No insult taken, Dews; my disappointment was not in how it played and sounded...it was the lack of features that I figured should have been part of the very expensive package, namely Audio to USB recording and at least a strings and perhaps a pipe and/or jazz organ voice. I had to midi a tone module to get a sound that is available on my lowly but goodie P-85.

So, when the suddenly acoustic-turned-digital aficionado Lowell made me a generous offer to buy my Avant Grand, I decided to sell and wait for the subsequent Avant Grand models that were implied at the N3's introduction.

As far as a "realistic piano playing experience", I haven't played anything that comes close to the Avant Grand N3...as I said in several of my posts, it has "soul".

I've put the loot away for another Avant Grand, and I've made enough profit from selling my N3 to actually pay for a new CP-1 (or CP-5), which isn't a bad thing at all, although I do miss the the former quite a bit.

I'm kinda hoping the new CP's satisfy my lust for a very capable stage piano, and I hope they will meet your criteria as well...Dave Bryce's review is very enlightening, but the real proof will come when we actually play it.

Snazzy
Posted By: Rille Stark Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/15/10 04:34 PM
Originally Posted by theJourney
I bet the CP-5 is the unit that will sell the most.


That would make the market department at Yamaha very disappointed. frown
The CP-50 is the high volume model for sure. smile


Peace
Posted By: theJourney Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/15/10 05:06 PM
And the CP50 may in fact flop...
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/15/10 05:50 PM
Originally Posted by theJourney
And the CP50 may in fact flop...

Bite your tongue! That's my possible future lover you're bad-mouthin' there.

Uh-oh, I think I've been hanging around Snazz too long... ;-)
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/16/10 01:21 AM
Anyone else notice the conspicuous absence of Yamaha Moose?

What is it with these guys that you ask one slightly technical question and they're gone faster than you can say "inside man"?
Posted By: madshi Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/16/10 08:26 AM
English CP1 manual available here:

http://www.yamahasynth.com/downloads/manuals/stage_pianos/cp1/english/
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/16/10 09:32 AM
I've had a number of conversations today with people who have played the CP1, CP5 and CP50 at NAMM ... all of them (and two of them also own real Yamaha grands like I do ..a C7 and S6) have said (of the CP1) "This is the best sounding DP I've ever played ..period" Another one said "this CP5 is simply the best thing I've heard on a board"

Looks like Yamaha has a winner , I thought they sounded good ... its nice to see others agreeing with me.
Posted By: madshi Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/16/10 01:01 PM
Originally Posted by dewster
The public promo material for this line confirms one of my worst suspicions about the AP voices / signal chain:

From Illustrated_Guide_to_the_CP1.pdf

When an acoustic piano is played live as part of a band, the sound thereof is normally picked up using a number of microphones and then mixed in order to prevent it from being drowned out by the other instruments. As part of this process, the signal from the microphones is boosted using pre-amplifiers and its frequency characteristic is adjusted using tone control in order to realize the best possible sound for the overall ensemble. For this reason, the acoustic piano voices of the CP1 feature microphone pre-amp simulators that can be used to optimize the sound in the very same way.

Next page (CFIIIS; CF 3Band, CF 2Band):

...microphone pre-amps featuring two- or three-band tone control and perfectly tuned to the characteristics of the CFIIIS have also been included to complete the sound of this remarkable instrument.

Next page (S6B; S6 3Band, S6 2Band):

In combination with this piano voice, furthermore, you can also use a microphone pre-amp unit with two- or three-band tone control perfectly tuned to the S6B sound.


Come and see our brand new 2 and 3 band preamp tone controls! "Perfectly tuned" (WTF?) to the piano sample no less! Our engineers finally figure out how to independently adjust bass, midrange, and treble! Or just bass and treble, if you prefer that instead.

This is some of the most shamelessly empty hype I've seen lately. Quite frankly, I'm shocked to see a company like Yamaha sink this low - it makes me fundamentally question the intelligence of their management.

I've just read the English manual, and I think your analyzation is spot on. Basically, for AP sounds, except for bass, midrange and treble adjustments, the CP1 does not seem to be any better than the CP5. The CP50 lacks the S6 sounds and the "VCM Compressor 376", which the CP1 seems to use for many AP sounds. Not sure exactly what purpose the compressor has. But IIRC Dr Popper liked the "Lush Piano" sound best and that one does not use the compressor. So the Lush Piano sound should be identical between CP1 and CP50. Unless, of course, the CP50 has a cut down sample size. But I kind of doubt that...

For me this is good news, because it means that the CP5 (and also the CP50) should sound just as good as the CP1 for AP. The CP1 has just a few more controls/variations.

For EPs, however, I see a noticeable advantage for the CP1. The speaker simulation seems to be used by default for most EPs. And the DX7 sounds being SCM should also be an advantage. I don't really know, though, how much difference these theoretical advantages make to the final sound quality.
Posted By: Rille Stark Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/16/10 01:51 PM
[quote=madshi The CP50 lacks the S6 sounds and the "VCM Compressor 376", which the CP1 seems to use for many AP sounds. Not sure exactly what purpose the compressor has. [/quote]

The compressor is essential when playing in a band situation and in the studio to make the piano voice cut through and to be placed correctly in the mix. A soundman like me will add compressor to the piano voice at the mixing table.
It can also be used to give flavor to the sound. smile


Peace
Originally Posted by Richard Stark
Review from The Keyboard Corner by David Bryce :

Yamaha CP1 first impressions



Just a bump, and comment that it is worth reading this thread over at the Keyboard Forum. (Even though one poster's response to a suggestion there, to check out our forum here, was "pass".

Still, I'm learning a bit "over there . . . "! (Especially relevant, IMHO, are the opinions expressed by those who have played it).
Posted By: robipiano Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/16/10 03:34 PM
another video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTbl0YinZn8
Yamaha CP Series Pianos Winter NAMM 2010 Demo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVhi8mMu9iE

Interesting that he said that Stage NW stands for Stage New Wood. (Whatever the heck that means?)

Anyway, better sound quality on this demo, but still using video mics. Yikes. Connect the audio out to the camera, already!

Time to read the manual.

Lawrence
Posted By: pianodilemma Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/17/10 04:40 AM
I haven't been this excited about an instrument in a long time. The sounds are amazing, the top-notch Yamaha action is there (if the NW keys of the CLP380 are any indication) and the suckers are chock full of features.

Some of you may recall my "dilemma" from this thread a few months back: http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1224271/Re:%20CP300%20vs.%20RD700GX.html

Basically, I decided to wait at that time because I had this hunch that Yamaha would release a response to the RD700GX, and boy have they ever. What blows me away is that it sounds very realistic. It's too bad that they don't include some of the upright pianos. I grew up playing a U3, so either that or a U5 would've been nice. Nevertheless, it looks like I'm going to pull the trigger on one of these guys.

One question that I have that's of some concern is that I'd like the wider variety of sounds coming out of the CP5, but notice that there are only two foot switch connections, so it looks like I'd have to go with two out of three of the standard piano pedals. Now, being from a classical piano background, this is somewhat disconcerting and I'd rather not have to pay another $2.5k for just this feature or to have to reassign one to the other depending on what I'm playing.

My question is this: Can a separate foot switch be connected to one of the other jacks on the CP-5 to assign it to one of the missing piano pedals? It looks like the possibilities are the foot controller inputs, MIDI, and maybe USB.

I hope I don't have to wait another six weeks to find this out, though I'm just waiting to get my hands on even a CP-1 at my local Yamaha dealer to try out.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/17/10 06:31 AM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
Just a bump, and comment that it is worth reading this thread over at the Keyboard Forum. (Even though one poster's response to a suggestion there, to check out our forum here, was "pass".

Read most of it and "pass" is my recommendation.

For example:

Quote
But the sounds....that's where I got lost. I got so lost, that I didn't fall into my usual analysis thing...didn't start picking apart the sound design - I just played...and played. It's just the best when that happens....

And:

Quote
I'm not a big fan of FM DX samples -the don't have the same life as a DX7. This did. It was a ton of fun to play - especially stacked on top of the CFIIIS.

I just can't believe there isn't something negative to say about the CP1. I mean, it wasn't handed down from on high for frick's sake, and most PC samplers could probably kick its ass all the way around the block, so why the 100% positively magical review? I know, money talks...

I just want something with a realistic, non-looped sustain. I don't need ponies and unicorns and god shining down on me every waking moment like they seem to be promising. Talk about oversell...

The problem with this whole thing is that the DP industry has set the bar for success so low I can't believe anyone anymore. There are too many people all too willing to assist in catapulting the hype into the stratosphere in exchange for a couple of bucks and sullying their good name.
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/17/10 07:57 AM
Originally Posted by dewster


The problem with this whole thing is that the DP industry has set the bar for success so low I can't believe anyone anymore. There are too many people all too willing to assist in catapulting the hype into the stratosphere in exchange for a couple of bucks and sullying their good name.


Do you feel that someone is being paid to praise the CP-!? If so, who is it, please?

I, for one, would like to know who it is, as that seems a bit unfair, wouldn't you agree, friend Dewster?

Snazzy
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/17/10 08:38 AM
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
Do you feel that someone is being paid to praise the CP-!? If so, who is it, please?

I, for one, would like to know who it is, as that seems a bit unfair, wouldn't you agree, friend Dewster?

No individual can be singled out if they are all playing the game.

It's like having every new Hollywood movie get 5 stars. I'm just sick of the endless hype emanating from NAMM.
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/17/10 09:54 AM
Making new friends over at Keyboard forums I see ha
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/17/10 10:04 AM
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/17/10 12:46 PM
Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
Do you feel that someone is being paid to praise the CP-!? If so, who is it, please?

I, for one, would like to know who it is, as that seems a bit unfair, wouldn't you agree, friend Dewster?

No individual can be singled out if they are all playing the game.


Can you be a little more vague? wink
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/17/10 05:00 PM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Making new friends over at Keyboard forums I see ha

Just spreading the love...
Posted By: Vid_w Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/17/10 06:35 PM
Originally Posted by dewster

I just can't believe there isn't something negative to say about the CP1. I mean, it wasn't handed down from on high for frick's sake, and most PC samplers could probably kick its ass all the way around the block, so why the 100% positively magical review? I know, money talks...

I just want something with a realistic, non-looped sustain. I don't need ponies and unicorns and god shining down on me every waking moment like they seem to be promising. Talk about oversell...

The problem with this whole thing is that the DP industry has set the bar for success so low I can't believe anyone anymore. There are too many people all too willing to assist in catapulting the hype into the stratosphere in exchange for a couple of bucks and sullying their good name.


shocked
Shun the non-believer!
j/k lol

I'm really liking these new keyboards from what I'm seeing!
I hope the action and the sounds are as sweet as they make it out to be.
But, I agree with dewster, you just can't believe what you hear anymore, it's usually biased.
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/18/10 11:59 AM
CP 5 demo by none other then BAD MISTER himself mad

Posted By: theJourney Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/18/10 12:21 PM
cool
Posted By: Kawai James Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/18/10 01:27 PM
So the CP5 was being exhibited?
Very nice. Great playing, great product.

I like the look of those mixer knobs towards the left - setting different levels for mic, line-in, USB audio, etc.

That Rhodes MkII sounded pretty crunchy too!

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/18/10 04:44 PM
Uh-oh!

"Over there" the CP honeymoon seems to be over - the long knives are coming out and they're starting to get their hate on:

http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbth..._Yamaha_CP1_first_impression#Post2154654

http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbth..._Yamaha_CP1_first_impression#Post2154695


I find the technical vagueness of their reviews to be very frustrating. e.g.:

"I'm always a little hesitant to try and put into words what I'm hearing but I didn't dig it."
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/18/10 05:19 PM
The acoustic piano on the CP-5 is very nice. I think coupled with that beautiful new wooden action, this is going to a great stage piano.

It doesn't sound any less robust than the CP-1.

I like the easily accessible knobs, and that great screen...now, I wonder what the organ sounds are like the in the CP-5?

Snazzy

Posted By: madshi Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/18/10 05:43 PM
Originally Posted by dewster
Uh-oh!

"Over there" the CP honeymoon seems to be over - the long knives are coming out and they're starting to get their hate on

I believe you misread the 2nd quote. He wrote "beyond" which is positive. I guess you misread it as "below"?
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/18/10 06:02 PM
Originally Posted by madshi
I believe you misread the 2nd quote. He wrote "beyond" which is positive. I guess you misread it as "below"?

Oops! Thanks! I had my skim knob set too high...

The OP reviewer sure changed his tune though.
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
CP 5 demo by none other then BAD MISTER himself


I thought it was a rather uninspiring demo. He didn't seem very comfortable with the instrument. Where's Bert? We need Bert! We need excitement, energy!

What's the actual point of posting a video recorded using the video cameras mic? I don't get it? How does this piano actually sound? No clue, based on this (and many other) videos.

Pa-leze, SOMEONE record from the audio outputs. Otherwise, its like teasing from a cheap hooker. (Not sure if I would want to dabble there, or not . . . )
Posted By: wildpaws Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/19/10 01:39 AM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
CP 5 demo by none other then BAD MISTER himself


I thought it was a rather uninspiring demo. He didn't seem very comfortable with the instrument. Where's Bert? We need Bert! We need excitement, energy!


I certainly felt that Phil at least played the piano, unlike the CP1 Demo where you were lucky if they played a dozen notes.
Clyde
Posted By: Kawai James Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/19/10 02:12 AM
I'm hearing that the NW Stage action is largely the same as NW (ie. plastic keys with pieces of wood attached to either side), yet without grade-weighted hammers.

Can anyone confirm this?

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/19/10 02:54 AM
Nah its more like the keys on one of the top line Clavinova's its a fantastic action actually.
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/19/10 02:57 AM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
CP 5 demo by none other then BAD MISTER himself


I thought it was a rather uninspiring demo. He didn't seem very comfortable with the instrument. Where's Bert? We need Bert! We need excitement, energy!

What's the actual point of posting a video recorded using the video cameras mic? I don't get it? How does this piano actually sound? No clue, based on this (and many other) videos.

Pa-leze, SOMEONE record from the audio outputs. Otherwise, its like teasing from a cheap hooker. (Not sure if I would want to dabble there, or not . . . )


He'd been there all day ...he was tired.

But it WAS Phil ... not as entertaining as Bert but 10 times the player.
Posted By: Kawai James Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/19/10 03:02 AM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Nah its more like the keys on one of the top line Clavinova's...


Yes, that's what I mean. NH (as found on the CLP-370/CLP-380) is essentially GH3 with pieces of wood attached to the sides of the keys.

Can you confirm whether or not the action uses grade-weighted hammers?

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Rille Stark Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/19/10 06:18 AM
Originally Posted by Richard Stark
"Spectral Component Modeling" sounds like an interesting technical term... cool

From a Yamaha Professional called Athan at the Music Player forum:

Originally Posted by dewster
They won't tell us so we end up speculating. That was a very confusing issue, even Yamaha's people couldn't communicate it very clearly.


Sorry, thought the post last week was pretty clear , but it WAS 6 am on the second day of NAMM

Spectral Component Modeling - Spectral Components Modeling is somewhat of a play on words. If you look at the diagrams in the CP Series brochure, you can see the different component blocks - The piano type, the preamp type , the VCM modulation effect, the power amp compressor block and reverb block. So one meaning of the Component Modeling is that we modeled different components of the signal chain.

At Yamaha when we use the term modeling we mean an actual mathematical model of a process or instrument. The VL1, VL70M and Virtual Circuit Modeling are all examples of Yamaha modeling and actually the same engineer who developed those models developed the CP series modeling. So the VCM effects, Preamps, Power Amp. Compressors, and speaker simulation are all models.


The CP1 has three different Piano Types (Acoustic, Electric and Synthesizer) each with a different core tone generation system. We selected the technologies that we felt were the best sounding available for that sound.

Acoustic Piano Type -Samples with some components of the piano itself modeled like hammer stiffness and sound board resonance and also a modeled mic preamp.

Electric Piano Type - This is the other part of the meaning of Spectral Component Modeling. We use spectral components of the sound for the electric piano models. Rather than multi-velocity layers of samples, SCM for the electric piano uses granular spectral parametric data so every nuance of the player’s touch is translated into expressive tone. There is nothing that is at all like what is normal referred to as a sample in the core ounds of the electric pianos. We did record many different vintage EPs to get information for the models , but there are no split points ot velocity switches or anything that is a " waveform".

However we do have multiple technologies available in the CP1. So for example some one commented that they did not think the electric pianos had note offs- actually they do. We didn't model the note offs as they do not have different characterisitics based on how hard you play. We just used sampled note offs.

Synthesizer Piano Type - In the CP1, it is real FM. Period. There are 4 of the most popular DX7 EP algorithms. On the VCM effects block there is a model of the TX816 chorus. There is a separate DSP chip to do the calculations necessary for FM.

Yamaha (and other companies) have done products with multiple synthesis methods before.

The CP5 does not have the mic preamp Models ( which accounts for the difference in the number of acoustic pianos listed in the brochure- there are 2 band mic preamps and a 3 band mic preamps in the CP1 and these are listed as different acoustic piano types) , the extra DSP for FM and of course the design elements and price are different.

The CP50 has one acoustic piano the CFIII and one tine model, the 75 and both reed models ( 69 and the 77). n

You can gleen all this information from either the CP Series catalog or the Illustrated Guide. They are available here. CP1 Resources Page

Anyway, we just try to provide the information we have in as clear a way as possible and stay away from opinions or value judgements.

It will be up to you to play the new CP Series and make up your own mind about it.

Hope that helps !
Posted By: Dave Ferris Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/19/10 06:23 AM
.
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/19/10 06:35 AM
Originally Posted by Dave Ferris


Hobbyists and hacks of the world unite @ pianoworld.com


Geeze..... careful with that axe Eugene ....
Posted By: Kawai James Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/19/10 07:01 AM
Richard Stark, many thanks for pasting Athan's post - I think he explains SCM very clearly, without going into too much technical detail.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: box Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/19/10 09:27 AM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Originally Posted by Dave Ferris


Hobbyists and hacks of the world unite @ pianoworld.com


Geeze..... careful with that axe Eugene ....


Not surprising. mr. dewster's antics over there have not exactly made pianoworld look good. He's been moderated a bit now, so hopefully the CP thread can get back on track.
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/19/10 10:49 AM
Originally Posted by box
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Originally Posted by Dave Ferris


Hobbyists and hacks of the world unite @ pianoworld.com


Geeze..... careful with that axe Eugene ....


Not surprising. mr. dewster's antics over there have not exactly made pianoworld look good. He's been moderated a bit now, so hopefully the CP thread can get back on track.


They just don't know him like we do ... if you accept from the outset that he's obsessed he's as lovable as a new puppy wink
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/19/10 10:53 AM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
They just don't know him like we do ... if you accept from the outset that he's obsessed he's as lovable as a new puppy wink


As long as there's newspaper on the floor. wink
Posted By: theJourney Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/19/10 12:02 PM
Originally Posted by KAWAI James
Richard Stark, many thanks for pasting Athan's post - I think he explains SCM very clearly, without going into too much technical detail.

Cheers,
James
x


+1
Posted By: madshi Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/19/10 05:26 PM
More info from Athan in the other forum about the DX7 sounds:

Quote
The biggest difference between the CP1 and a DX7 is not in the digital domain, but rather in the quality of the D/A (digital to analog) convertors. The FM algorithms are the same as in the DX, but it sounds more like an FS1r in the output because D/A technology has come along way in the last 20 years. To be clear, there is no FM programming available. It is just 4 EP algorithms with some simple parameters like attack and release


And about the CP1 missing features compared to the CP5:

Quote
It is definitely not typical that the flagship has less features than the other products in the line. But then again a samurai sword doesn't have a bottle opener on it. :rolleyes

For a majority of people, the CP5 is going to have the best feature set for their needs and budget. Again if you read the threads here people have confirmed that the keyboard action and core sounds are the same between the CP1 and CP5. The CP1 is a design statement and you probably have to see it in person to really appreciate it.
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
CP 5 demo by none other then BAD MISTER himself


I thought it was a rather uninspiring demo. He didn't seem very comfortable with the instrument. Where's Bert? We need Bert! We need excitement, energy!

What's the actual point of posting a video recorded using the video cameras mic? I don't get it? How does this piano actually sound? No clue, based on this (and many other) videos.



He'd been there all day ...he was tired.

But it WAS Phil ... not as entertaining as Bert but 10 times the player.


OK. I agree. He was tired. He's a great player and musician. However, it was uninspiring at least to me, and the sound quality was terrible. I'd really like to see / hear someone that is passionate about this instrument, playing it so that we can hear the quality. That's all.

It's like my music. If I posted crappy examples, I wouldn't exactly get a lot of folks interested in buying it, would I? (Trust me - it really sounds better than what I've posted).

Yamaha apparently spent 5 years developing the CP1. Is it too much to ask for some quality demos?

Apparently it is.

Then the typical response is going to be "you've got to play it". I agree with this BUT, the only stores (at least in my area) that will bring it in are big box, loud, noisy (think guitar heads a few feet away). It will be hooked up to crappy monitors, so far apart that you're really listening to one channel of the stereo.

I'm supposed to evaluate the keyboard under these circumstances? Well, I can get something of an idea, but really I'd like a whole bunch of CD quality demos as well. So I can listen, in the quiet of my studio, through my monitors.

Lawrence
Posted By: Kawai James Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/20/10 02:13 AM
Lawrence, I'm sure Yamaha will put out some excellent demos in due course.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/20/10 04:21 AM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
What's the actual point of posting a video recorded using the video cameras mic? I don't get it? How does this piano actually sound? No clue, based on this (and many other) videos.

Shaky video with crap audio must be some kind of NAMM tradition. A little work on the presentation here would go a long way.

Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
Yamaha apparently spent 5 years developing the CP1.

Wow, where did you hear that? Not that I don't believe it.

Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
Then the typical response is going to be "you've got to play it". I agree with this BUT, the only stores (at least in my area) that will bring it in are big box, loud, noisy (think guitar heads a few feet away). It will be hooked up to crappy monitors, so far apart that you're really listening to one channel of the stereo.

That's why I was pushing them so hard to give any technical info at all (and caught holy heck over it - my fault for not being more tactful, and for not knowing I was walking into more of a club than a forum). I can't spend the rest of my life tracking these things down and comparing them in noisy Guitar Centers and such. Just tell me if the CFIII sample is the same across all models. Then if I happen to run across one of them somewhere in a less than unideal demo environment, I'll know the sound at least will be comparable regardless of which one I might chose or recommend.

They're playing their cards too close to the chest. I might be reading it wrong, but it seemed to me that people had to really make a fuss before they came clean on the FM thing for instance. And after all that I wonder what the fuss was about - an exceedingly limited and so disappointing DX7 implementation.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/20/10 04:24 AM
Quote
It is definitely not typical that the flagship has less features than the other products in the line. But then again a samurai sword doesn't have a bottle opener on it. :rolleyes

Funny, "rolls eyes" was pretty much my reaction to that statement too.
Posted By: Kawai James Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/20/10 05:52 AM
dewster, my apologies, I haven't been keeping up with the discussion on the other forum, however may I ask you to clarify what you mean by "came clean on the FM thing"?

The FM simulation is entirely modelled, is it not?

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Rille Stark Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/20/10 06:17 AM
This is how Athan a Yamaha Professional expressed it on The Keyboard Corner:

Synthesizer Piano Type - In the CP1, it is real FM. Period. There are 4 of the most popular DX7 EP algorithms. On the VCM effects block there is a model of the TX816 chorus. There is a separate DSP chip to do the calculations necessary for FM.


Peace
Posted By: madshi Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/20/10 10:33 AM
BTW, there are some new CP5 demo songs available here:

http://www.yamahasynth.com/products/stage_pianos/cp5/
Posted By: EssBrace Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/20/10 11:34 AM
Rhodes sounds nice.

Pianos are pleasant but you can't make any more of a judgment than that with the demos. They have that Yamaha sound...the slightly intrusive bell-like thing a few notes above middle C. I KNOW Yamaha believe they make the best acoustic pianos and I understand from a marketing/corporate point of view why you only get a Yamaha sound on a Yamaha DP but with all their wealth of experience and technical know-how maybe it would be nice if at least they offered you an alternative. The best sampled/modelled result in the world is no good if you don't like what they've sampled or tried to emulate. An additional American or European piano sound would provide a much a more interesting, versatile instrument for their customers.

Steve
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/20/10 12:05 PM
I have to agree with Steve above...the acoustics are definitively "Yamaha". A familiar sound to those who play Yamaha, and excellent for either sitting in the mix, or on top of it.

So far my recently sold Avant Grand sounds far more authentic, but I'm wondering if that characteristic that Steve speaks of, can be changed via the EQ.

The Rhodes pianos are really nice, but nothing so far has leaped out and said, "Buy me!"

I've got to hear the Hammond emulations as well as the strings patches, because I'd like to carry only one instrument if possible.

My CP-300 ain't gonna be replaced too soon, methinks.

Snazzy

Originally Posted by madshi
BTW, there are some new CP5 demo songs available here:

http://www.yamahasynth.com/products/stage_pianos/cp5/


Thanks. I had missed those. (Had only looked at the CP1 page.) The AP's sound pretty good, at least for the playing styles represented. I like what I'm hearing.
Originally Posted by dewster


Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
Yamaha apparently spent 5 years developing the CP1.

Wow, where did you hear that? Not that I don't believe it.



Notice that I said "apparently". It was one of things that the store sales rep (who attended NAMM) told me.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/20/10 01:50 PM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
Originally Posted by dewster

Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
Yamaha apparently spent 5 years developing the CP1.

Wow, where did you hear that? Not that I don't believe it.

Notice that I said "apparently". It was one of things that the store sales rep (who attended NAMM) told me.

Interesting they don't use the term "man-years" anymore. When they did it was always some huge, and therefore more impressive sounding, number. It's a potentially better indication of the work put in to develop something. This could have been one guy working on it an hour a day for five years, or a large team beavering away 24/7 (though almost certainly something in between).
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/20/10 03:13 PM
Originally Posted by KAWAI James
dewster, my apologies, I haven't been keeping up with the discussion on the other forum, however may I ask you to clarify what you mean by "came clean on the FM thing"?

The FM simulation is entirely modelled, is it not?

Over there I pointed out the skimpy MIDI implementation, one not very consistent with real FM parameters, and it seemed to me anyway that that is perhaps what prompted the more complete technical response from Yamaha (i.e. it's real 100% FM, not sure if that is what you consider to be modeled or not). Who really knows though. I'm coming to the realization that NAMM is a big musical party that just happens to involve new equipment, and if you aren't actually attending the party you're out in the cold.

When the Yamaha rep Athan (see Richard's post above) explained SCM he said it was "something of a play on words" and then goes on to use the word "modeled" for the things like EQ and reverb, so I guess I agree.

Most interesting, I thought, was that he says the EPs use what sounds to me like spectral envelopes, whereas the AP are just samples, with hammer stiffness and soundboard resonance as "modeled" (?) elements.

I think SCM started out for real in the EPs where it actually made sense as a term, and then someone ran with it and applied it to everything going on in the signal chain, pasting it at the top of the main table in their literature (which lumped the APs, EPs, and FM together under the SCM banner) etc.

I must say it's not looking too good for the APs in this trio of boards. If they're not using something like SCM to compress the AP samples, then they are likely using looping. I still think of the guys in one of those first videos saying it's really hard to hear the layer switching, which leads me to believe they are just doing that more smoothly somehow, but other than that it's just the same old layer thing.

The EPs, particularly the they way they are doing them, is the real new feature here, and the APs, while probably better than most DPs, are clearly secondary, with the FM dead last. As a result, my expectations of the APs have been correspondingly lowered. Anyone who was hoping for a full DX7 in there after hearing "real FM synth in there!" must be even more disappointed.

This is just me speculating, but less wildly this time as it is based on the direct statements of a Yamaha rep.
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/20/10 04:13 PM
Originally Posted by dewster


This is just me speculating, but less wildly this time as it is based on the direct statements of a Yamaha rep.


So Dewster, tell me this...if you actually played the CP-1 or CP-5, and you really loved what you heard, would you buy one?

Or, are you just another speculator?

Snazzy
Posted By: madshi Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/20/10 05:49 PM
Originally Posted by dewster
Anyone who was hoping for a full DX7 in there after hearing "real FM synth in there!" must be even more disappointed.

Not really. Ok, a full DX7 FM synth implementation would have been nice. But personally, all I'm looking for is great AP and EP sounds. So if those 4 selected DX7 EPs in the CP1 play as good as the best DX7 EPs did, then that would be plenty good enough for me. Which other current DP can offer DX7 EP sounds in full FM quality? None, that's right. So I only see reason for praise here, not for complaints. My only complaint is that the top model lacks some important features, which the step down model has.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/20/10 06:20 PM
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
So Dewster, tell me this...if you actually played the CP-1 or CP-5, and you really loved what you heard, would you buy one?

Oh, I'd buy the CP50 in a second if the CFIII was sufficiently good enough to record solo.

Here's the thing though: DPs are part computer, part algorithm, part the piano they actually sampled, etc. Once I am reasonably sure that the computer in there is up to snuff in terms of sufficiently supporting the algorithm they are using to play back the original piano (enough Flash or HD space if it is a pure sample, enough processor it it is largely modeled, some mix if it is some mix) only then do I start caring about how it sounds. If the computer isn't up to snuff, then I almost don't care how the keys feel, or which specific piano was sampled, etc.

Say someone is printing a very well written book on a somewhat lame printer. People who review it say the content is awesome, and from a distance the book looks fine, so you buy it. But up close you can easily see the dots that make up the fonts and pictures, and because of this when you actually sit down to read it you get eye fatigue and a headache, to the point where you can't concentrate and have to set the book aside, good content or no. Since most books are printed on sufficiently decent printers, we don't really think about the technical end of printing very much, and so we mainly discuss the content. But if most books were poorly printed you would most likely have print quality near the top of your list of things to find out about any promising new publication.

If the same were true for DPs (i.e. the hardware being technically sufficient), my interest in how they work would be much more academic. Other people (and I'm not trying to single anyone in particular out for ridicule) only seem to care about the sound when they play some piece on it or other. For me it all falls apart the second I hear any obvious compression artifacting.
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/20/10 06:38 PM
Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
So Dewster, tell me this...if you actually played the CP-1 or CP-5, and you really loved what you heard, would you buy one?

Oh, I'd buy the CP50 in a second if the CFIII was sufficiently good enough to record solo.



That's comforting to know. wink

I'll know if I want it after about an hour of playing it...I have my system of checking things out.

I think the CP-5 is the best of the bunch, so far, but again, I'll know once I've spent some quality time with it.

I try not to get bogged down with specs and details...that's mostly a waste of time and a path that goes nowhere...and I take other people's opinions as just that...other people's opinions...they'll be based on their own criteria, which will include brand loyalty, what celebrity plays it, and countless other drivel I don't have any interest in, or has no connection to my wants and needs.

It's best to test fresh, with as few preconceptions and technical fluff as possible...it's a musical instrument dammit, and it has to appeal to me in a way that specs and so called expert reviews can't express.

I knew right away that the Avant Grand was special...a level above anything else...it lacks vital sounds for my needs, like strings and perhaps a great jazz organ...otherwise I would have kept it. I couldn't see needing to use a midi module on a high end digital.

It's good that you're being fussy...that's a good trait...just don't let it get in the way.

Snazzy

Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/20/10 06:51 PM
Originally Posted by madshi
Which other current DP can offer DX7 EP sounds in full FM quality? None, that's right. So I only see reason for praise here, not for complaints.

The DX7 was one of the best selling synths of all time. And since it is wholly algorithmic, a patch for it completely defines what can be an entirely new and different voice. I think it's a shame they didn't develop the CP series enough for it to take the ocean of patches floating around out there. I mean, they're probably 90% there already, why not go all the way?

Perhaps software is just getting too expensive to fully develop any sufficiently complex HW/SW music product for profit? Or maybe it was UI issues that held them back? I don't use FM much, but knowing I was getting a full DX7 in my DP would definitely give me a thrill. Four similar sounding patches with no control over the operators is a total bore.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/20/10 10:10 PM
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
I'll know if I want it after about an hour of playing it...I have my system of checking things out.

I'll probably be able to rule it out in a matter of minutes. Failing that (and oh please be true) ruling it in might take a bit longer.

Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
I try not to get bogged down with specs and details...that's mostly a waste of time and a path that goes nowhere...

For me it is quite the contrary. Specs tend to be so poor that I can instantly rule almost everything out. Saves me tons of time and money (but would make me no fun at NAMM parties).

Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
and I take other people's opinions as just that...other people's opinions...they'll be based on their own criteria, which will include brand loyalty, what celebrity plays it, and countless other drivel I don't have any interest in, or has no connection to my wants and needs.

Yes I feel this too, particularly for the non-technical good reviews. I guess that's why I reacted so poorly to the reviews on that other forum - basically the CP1 experience blew them away so hard they couldn't reach the switch in their brain that engages conscious thought. I mean, what is one supposed to do with that except freak out? It's so impossible on its face that you have to start questioning everything, including whether money, drugs, or sex were involved. No real piano has ever affected me that strongly!

Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
It's best to test fresh, with as few preconceptions and technical fluff as possible...it's a musical instrument dammit, and it has to appeal to me in a way that specs and so called expert reviews can't express.

Perhaps once DPs get sufficiently technically complex and polished enough to offer a similar organic experience as a real piano I'll start seeing them that way. For now at least all I see is a box containing a tiny computer running mediocre software, with sometimes better or worse keys on top.
Posted By: madshi Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/21/10 01:33 PM
Originally Posted by dewster
Four similar sounding patches with no control over the operators is a total bore.

If playing around with synth parameters and downloading patches from the internet is your main interest in a DP, then yes, the DX7 subset implemention in the CP1 is a bore. If very playable and good sounding sounds are your main interest, then the DX7 subset implementation in the CP1 is far from a bore. Actually it's probably much better in quality than what any DP competitor currently has to offer.

A few days/weeks ago we all suspected that the CP1 DX7 EPs were built by using a mixture of sampling and modeling (called "SCM"). And most of us were happy to get that. Weren't you reasonably happy, too, at that time, to get something better than just sampled DX7 EP sounds? Now we actually get better quality than we original suspected (true FM instead of SCM), but all you comment on is that you're disappointed. IMHO you're being very unfair here.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/21/10 08:56 PM
Originally Posted by madshi
If playing around with synth parameters and downloading patches from the internet is your main interest in a DP, then yes, the DX7 subset implemention in the CP1 is a bore.

No, it's definitely not my main interest. But if I owned it, and a DX7 was in there, yes I would download patches to it, and yes I would play around with the parameters. It would add a whole new dimension to the instrument, one I and probably others would really welcome.

I think too that it would be a really nice selling point for the flagship model, and would go some way towards justifying it's huge price differential with the CP5.

Originally Posted by madshi
A few days/weeks ago we all suspected that the CP1 DX7 EPs were built by using a mixture of sampling and modeling (called "SCM"). And most of us were happy to get that. Weren't you reasonably happy, too, at that time, to get something better than just sampled DX7 EP sounds? Now we actually get better quality than we original suspected (true FM instead of SCM), but all you comment on is that you're disappointed.

When we thought the DX7 was sampled, what was in there seemed like maybe all they could do. Now that we know it is 100% FM, call me crazy, but I kind of expect more. It's like making a car with 4 gears but no gear shift. Actually it's worse than that.

Originally Posted by madshi
IMHO you're being very unfair here.

I'm not sure how one can be fair or unfair when it comes to large corporations. Yamaha manufacturers things to make money. They want our money, not for us to love or respect them, so in many ways our relationship with them is cold and somewhat adversarial. As long as I'm buying things from them, Yamaha doesn't care if I live or die. That doesn't make them monsters, it's just the way things are.

And not that I'm anyone by any means, but if they want my tiny bit of money they have to build things I need or want, at price points I consider to be reasonable for what I am getting.
According to the literature on the CP1, it "uses a complete different method of playback than normal sampling technology. Rather than multi-velocity layers of samples, SCM uses granular parametric data so every nuance of the player’s touch is translated into expressive tone."

So the question is - how many velocity levels does the CP1 have, or does the above quote invalidate this question? On V-Piano, there is no velocity switching, because there are no samples - resulting in superior playability. Same for CP1? In terms of playability? This is an extremely important question. Is the playability of the V-Piano going to be matched by the playability of the CP1?

Dr. Popper? (I think you are the only one here who has played the CP1).

Lawrence
Posted By: sullivang Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/22/10 03:48 AM
Judging by the Keyboard Mag video review, the acoustic pianos have virtually indistinguishable velocity layers, whereas the electric pianos have completely indistinguishable velocity layers. smile (or words to that effect). I.e - the Yamaha chap stopped short of stating that the A.P's were completely seamless, but he was quite adamant that the E.P's are in fact seamless.

Greg.
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/22/10 04:18 AM
I could detect no velocity switching whatsoever on the CP1 or CP5 as I've previously said the only tiny thing I "might" have noticed was a slight artifact of some sort on the decay but I wasn't even 100% sure of it.

Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/22/10 05:39 AM
Everyone here is probably tired of me saying this, but I have a hard time hearing the velocity switching on our old P120 - it's not easy without surgically controlled MIDI data feeding it, and it's only a triple-strike I believe (and did I say it's really old?). Stretching is a bit easier to hear if you listen for it, and looping is super easy on almost any note.

That's why the "I almost can't detect any velocity switching" line in the CP1 video didn't impress me much. Now if they had been discussing looping I'd have been all ears. No one but the good Dr. has addressed this even once, which is either people just ignoring me (which I completely understand) or something to be taken as rather ominous.

That the EPs should have no discernible velocity switching makes sense from the info beaten out of Yamaha (so far) since they are the only voices that I would consider to be truly SCM (an acronym so abused in its infancy that someone should call the child protective services hot line).
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/22/10 06:24 AM
No discernible stretching or looping on the CP1 or CP5 like you would hear on almost any other Yamaha DP.
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
I could detect no velocity switching whatsoever on the CP1 or CP5 as I've previously said the only tiny thing I "might" have noticed was a slight artifact of some sort on the decay but I wasn't even 100% sure of it.


Originally Posted by Dr Popper

No discernible stretching or looping on the CP1 or CP5 like you would hear on almost any other Yamaha DP.


OK. Thanks. That's VERY encouraging.

One more (related) question - maybe two. How is the dynamic range / timbre change (from ppp playing to fff playing)?

(It seems to me that the folks who have played the CP1 (a) really like the sound of the AP's, and (b) really like the action. Both good points, but the above issues are pretty critical as well - at least for my style of playing.

Lawrence

Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/22/10 01:44 PM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music


One more (related) question - maybe two. How is the dynamic range / timbre change (from ppp playing to fff playing)?



Oh its excellent but Yamaha have had this down for a while. The MotifXS Xpanded CFIIIs sample was very good in this regard and the S90Xs's S6 patch was even better. They actually can take quite a high degree of finesse well in fact more then I would ever use. The smooth even graduations are typical of the S6 piano ... they do capture the essence of the S6 in this regard.

All that said it was a noisy room and I was so caught up listening for Dewsters sampling artifacts that my impressions might indeed be premature. But I can say I heard nothing but pure S6 ..good or bad (lets not start on how people think its too bright for its own good because for me its perfect) I can't actually think of much bad to say about it.



Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/22/10 03:05 PM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
All that said it was a noisy room and I was so caught up listening for Dewsters sampling artifacts that my impressions might indeed be premature. But I can say I heard nothing but pure S6 ..good or bad (lets not start on how people think its too bright for its own good because for me its perfect) I can't actually think of much bad to say about it.

I agree, this is encouraging! Thank you Dr. for elaborating somewhat on your earlier observations, and thank you again for taking the time to perform these experiments!

I for one love a bright piano, and sure wish they had put the S6 patch in the CP50. *sigh*
Originally Posted by dewster

I for one love a bright piano, and sure wish they had put the S6 patch in the CP50. *sigh*


I'm confused, apparently. I thought that the S6 was a darker piano - at least darker than than CFIIIs. (I seem to recall that's how the Yamaha videos described the S6 when the S90XS came out).
Originally Posted by dewster


That's why the "I almost can't detect any velocity switching" line in the CP1 video didn't impress me much.


Wow. Does anything, every impress you, dewster?
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/22/10 10:39 PM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
Originally Posted by dewster

I for one love a bright piano, and sure wish they had put the S6 patch in the CP50. *sigh*


I'm confused, apparently. I thought that the S6 was a darker piano - at least darker than than CFIIIs. (I seem to recall that's how the Yamaha videos described the S6 when the S90XS came out).


No I wouldn't say that at all. I'd say the CFIIIS is definitely a slightly darker richer tonality then the S6B both are richer then the G or C series pianos but compared to say a Steinway or another European board they both are brighter then a full moon. The S6 is a more even piano with the CFIIIS being very expressive in the higher ranges. I've been offered one or the other for my C7 when the new X models come out. Don't know if I really want to replace my C7 at all ... its lovely.

In terms of brightness, how would the piano on the CLP370, for example, compare?
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/22/10 10:53 PM
Couldn't say I've never played it. I've played a CVP-509 and its clearly got both S6 and a CFIIIS in there. Its hard to tell on Clavinovas with their rubbish speakers.
Thanks. I'll just have to play the CP1 for myself, and decide! Can't wait, but apparently have to! (Hopefully soon. It's so hard when the GAS is building up!)

In any event, I assume that judicious use of the Bass/Mid/Treble knobs would moderate if too bright. (I'm thinking of for solo piano applications).

It's interesting. When play the V-Piano, I dial down the brightness a bit (using the color parameter). The range is -7 to +7, with default at 0 ). I typically adjust it to -2 or -3 and soften the hammers a bit. However, when I play back the recording, now I want to add back in some of the brightness!

So, when I play, and when I listen, I'm apparently hearing different things - in terms of brightness / tone color. Interesting, huh?
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/23/10 01:13 AM
Its always the way for me too. When I hear myself play on stage and listen to the recording afterward it always sounds less muddy. I think its speakers nothing quite sounds like a pure connection straight into a DAW to capture a instrument.
Posted By: ChrisA Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/23/10 02:31 AM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music

So, when I play, and when I listen, I'm apparently hearing different things - in terms of brightness / tone color. Interesting, huh?


What kind of speaker, headphone moditor setup do you have. I assume when you play the line out on the v-piano goes direct to monitor speakers or headphones. Then how do you play it back? Swap cables, have a mixer? Does the sound go through the exact same path? How about you, how far did you move. Monitors likely have a very small sweat spot.

How are you recording? If it were me I'd be recording the S/PDIF output.

If you are recording the line out then you are adding two passes through an interface box which has a few op-amps and a/d and d/a converters.
The recording is MIDI, so same speakers, same sweet spot, same everything. The sound source is the V-Piano itself. Can't much more "pure" than that!
Posted By: ChrisA Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/23/10 04:06 AM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
The recording is MIDI, so same speakers, same sweet spot, same everything. The sound source is the V-Piano itself. Can't much more "pure" than that!


Using sequencer software?
When the v-piano plays from MIDI-IN I wonder how it determines which patch to use. When you tweak the sound for playing live do you save the adjustments so thay can be used when using the v-paino as a midi tone generator or do the adjustments only apply to the keyboard? I wonder if the midi file has the program switch commands correct?
Yep. Same patch, same settings. V-Piano's on board sequencer. That's my point. The actual sound is the same, but my perception changes.
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Couldn't say I've never played it. I've played a CVP-509 and its clearly got both S6 and a CFIIIS in there. Its hard to tell on Clavinovas with their rubbish speakers.


This is certainly one limitation of console style digital pianos. Once I (hopefully) have the CP1 in place, the next step will be to match it with the best (that I can afford) audio system. (Upgrade the monitors, at least).

I'm also considering getting something like IK Multimedia's ARC system (Advanced Room Correction System ) to tune my audio system.

http://www.ikmultimedia.com/arc/features/
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/23/10 05:26 AM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
Wow. Does anything, every impress you, dewster?

My cat does now and then. But that's about it.
Posted By: EssBrace Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/23/10 10:18 AM
There's only one thing a cat can do that impresses me and the less said about that the better....

Lawrence, I think it is your brain that is responsible for the different perception you have between playing/listening...My experience is that I am NEVER satisfied when I play but when I listen to the playback I often think it's better. And this is not just about the sonic performance but my playing too.

Steve
Originally Posted by EssBrace
There's only one thing a cat can do that impresses me and the less said about that the better....


Awkward!

Quote

Lawrence, I think it is your brain that is responsible for the different perception you have between playing/listening


Agreed.

Quote

...My experience is that I am NEVER satisfied when I play but when I listen to the playback I often think it's better. And this is not just about the sonic performance but my playing too.


I'm the opposite. I often will like the sound when I'm playing, but when I listen to playback, I don't like what I'm hearing.

Lawrence
Posted By: theJourney Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/23/10 11:46 PM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music

Quote

...My experience is that I am NEVER satisfied when I play but when I listen to the playback I often think it's better. And this is not just about the sonic performance but my playing too.


I'm the opposite. I often will like the sound when I'm playing, but when I listen to playback, I don't like what I'm hearing.

Lawrence


This topic would warrant its own thread in the piano corner. Are either of you up to starting one there. I for one would like to see how this discussion would develop.
Posted By: EssBrace Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/24/10 05:55 AM
I agree it is interesting as our perception alters between playing and then listening/reviewing...interesting also that the shift towards/away from satisfaction is in the opposite direction for Lawrence and me...I wonder what is typical?

Steve
Posted By: madshi Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/27/10 07:55 AM
In the other forum a user already received his CP1:

Originally Posted by Andy Seattle
I got an SV-1 in December and returned it due to some deal breaking issues, so there was a hole ready to be filled. When the CP1 was announced I pounced on it - the spec read like a list of everything I've been asking for for years.

First impression after a couple of hours - I love the action and the pianos - the CFIIIS is fabulous. I need to dig deeper with the Rhodes sounds - they are very tweakable but just going through the presets, the amp sims are much more subtle than the SV-1 and the bark is less accentuated. I do miss the UniVibe though... cry

No CP1 owners in this forum yet?
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/27/10 08:17 AM
Not yet I'm expecting one before the end of the month wink
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/27/10 08:53 AM
I've got one order too...expected at the end of the month...next month that is (February)...they are back ordered quite a bit.

Snazzy
I haven't played it yet, but hope to soon. My order will follow, if I like it. (I'll be going from V-Piano to the CP1, so I need to make sure it's the right decision. (I don't want to give up any of the advantage of the V-Piano (playability) for the the improved sound. Yep, that's correct. I want my cake, and to eat it too.)
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/27/10 03:01 PM
I called around the shops here in norther NJ. No one has even heard of the CP1, which is kind of sad. The Manhattan GC said to call back during the week - they have a V-Piano in the demo room, so they at least have some high-end stuff out.
Posted By: KrAYZEE Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/27/10 08:38 PM
I played both the 1 and the 5 plus both Avant Grands (at NAMM). My family had to pull me off the CP-1 at risk of missing the rest of the show. I really enjoyed playing it and it felt really responsive. I might even use the term "alive" if it didn't sound slightly implausible. I've played the V-piano and it doesn't have the same kind of pull for me. I need to replace an old triton pro for myself and my son and had thought I was going to get an entry level upright; a used U model or a new chinese piano but after playing the Cable-Nelson, the P22, the T118 and the U3 all within 15 minutes of the CP-1, I now have to rethink the decision. The acoustic sounds in the CP's are rewarding enough that maybe I want to keep the volume control and skip tuning and service issues. After all, I'm a 52 year old beginner and my son is a 3 yr intermediate. Will it replace a grand for a serious conservatory student? Maybe not yet but only by a little and it certainly creates a new standard for a digital practice device. I used to be a Roland fan when it came to DP's but I think Yamaha has the leg up right now across the lines/price points.

I tried the SV-1. I thought it was gimmicky and it only sounded okay. The rhodes on the CP was better and so were the harpsichords. I didn't really work out the organ patches since that isn't where I live when it comes to keyboard playing. I also cant abide Korg as a company. The fact that I have a Triton is a ironic happenstance.

One mans anecdotal opinion(s)

Kurt
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/27/10 08:46 PM
Originally Posted by KrAYZEE
I played both the 1 and the 5 plus both Avant Grands (at NAMM). My family had to pull me off the CP-1 at risk of missing the rest of the show. Kurt


Kurt, I know it might have been hard to distinguish in the hub-bub of the show, but how the the CP-5's piano compare with the CP-1's? Were they reasonably close?

What about the actions...the same for both the CP-1 and CP-5?

Snazzy
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
I've got one order too...expected at the end of the month...next month that is (February)...they are back ordered quite a bit.

Snazzy


I thought you were going to get the CP5. Did you change your mind and opt for the CP1? (Or perhaps I'm confused . . . )

Lawrence
Originally Posted by KrAYZEE
I played both the 1 and the 5 plus both Avant Grands (at NAMM). My family had to pull me off the CP-1 at risk of missing the rest of the show. I really enjoyed playing it and it felt really responsive. I might even use the term "alive" if it didn't sound slightly implausible. I've played the V-piano and it doesn't have the same kind of pull for me.


Music to my ears!
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/27/10 10:07 PM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
I've got one order too...expected at the end of the month...next month that is (February)...they are back ordered quite a bit.

Snazzy


I thought you were going to get the CP5. Did you change your mind and opt for the CP1? (Or perhaps I'm confused . . . )

Lawrence


The CP-1 will be store stock if I don't take it...I'm hoping the CP-5 (also on order) will have the same acoustic piano patch (with less editing and other things) and the basic Rhodes will be as good...plus the wooden action to be the same.

If possible I want a piano to replace my CP-300, which has organ, strings, pads etc.

I'm hoping the CP-1 will be an indication of what we might expect with the CP-5...then again, if they are very different, and I really love the CP-1, I might go for it.


Yes I know....I can be confusing. crazy

Snazzy

Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/27/10 10:54 PM
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
I'm hoping the CP-1 will be an indication of what we might expect with the CP-5.

And the CP50! Don't forget the CP50!!

Oh please, please, please...
Posted By: daviel Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/27/10 10:59 PM
The cp-50 is the one I want to know about. From what I have read it has the new piano and the '75 rhodes - and that is all I want. period.
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/27/10 11:04 PM
Yeah, that's right...it's definitely another consideration...I wonder what action will be in the CP-50?

Probably the same as the CP-33?

Snazzy
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/27/10 11:16 PM
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
Yeah, that's right...it's definitely another consideration...I wonder what action will be in the CP-50?

Probably the same as the CP-33?

Yammy web site says "Keyboard 88 keys, GH keyboard".

Same Clavinova keys as on the P-155 I assume?
Posted By: KrAYZEE Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/27/10 11:21 PM
SnazzyP,

I wasn't able to a/b directly the 5 to the 1. There was about 45 minutes of playing 5-6 uprights and several other DP's between playing the two of them. I really liked the 5. I loved the 1 yet I can't tell you why. Normally I'm pretty analytical but I am not a specs nor feature memorizer. It may have been how fun and responsive the 1 was after some pretty dull uprights.

Here's what I noticed. Fidelity is tremendous. Bass is full and un muddy in a decent but unremarkable set of 'phones. On the electrics there's a phenomenal amount of control over the chime and growl under the fingers. On the acoustic grand sound, for the first time I didn't sense the steps in the velocity response and a full range of dynamic response was available within reasonable variances of velocity. I didn't have the urge to fiddle with the velocity repsonse curve like I do on most digitals, The note under each finger felt independent of the other in a good way. Even though I don't have a lot of experience on acoustics, any time I've sat at any digital, I've chafed at some aspect of what they do or don't do after a very short while. The CP-1, for the 10 minutes I played it didn't chafe. I just wanted to keep playing. It was a digital that was fun, not just acceptable or worse. Like I said, I really thought I was going to buy a $3-4 thousand upright but know I'm not so sure.

Caveat to all: I'm a 6 month beginner on the piano but a 40 year vet of playing other instruments.

Kurt
Posted By: Kawai James Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/27/10 11:49 PM
Is there any word on whether the NW Stage action used in the CP1/CP5 is grade-weighted from bass to treble, or the same weight across the entire keyboard?

If I was searching for a stage piano to replace an acoustic, this would be something of a deal-breaker for me.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/28/10 12:08 AM
I can't possibly imagine the action in the CP-1 and CP-5 to be un-graded, James...it is de rigueur for high end digitals.

Are you interested in getting a CP-1/CP-5?

Snazzy
Posted By: daviel Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/28/10 12:36 AM
Originally Posted by KrAYZEE
SnazzyP,

I just wanted to keep playing. It was a digital that was fun, not just acceptable or worse. Like I said, I really thought I was going to buy a $3-4 thousand upright but know I'm not so sure.

Caveat to all: I'm a 6 month beginner on the piano but a 40 year vet of playing other instruments.

Kurt


That's a good sign - just about every grand piano I have played seems to want me to keep playing it. It is hard to stop. The reason I quoted that piece above is that if I had the room and did not have to tote a keyboard to gigs and was just starting out - 6 months in to it [jeez I hope you're taking lessons] - it would be a big mistake not to get the upright. I'd want to learn on the real thing - at least practice on it...or get them both! Just my 2 cents.
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer


Yes I know....I can be confusing. crazy



Actually, makes perfect sense.

Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/28/10 12:47 AM
Originally Posted by KrAYZEE
SnazzyP,

I really liked the 5. I loved the 1 yet I can't tell you why. Normally I'm pretty analytical but I am not a specs nor feature memorizer. It may have been how fun and responsive the 1 was after some pretty dull uprights.

Here's what I noticed. Fidelity is tremendous. Bass is full and un muddy in a decent but unremarkable set of 'phones. On the electrics there's a phenomenal amount of control over the chime and growl under the fingers. On the acoustic grand sound, for the first time I didn't sense the steps in the velocity response and a full range of dynamic response was available within reasonable variances of velocity. I didn't have the urge to fiddle with the velocity repsonse curve like I do on most digitals, The note under each finger felt independent of the other in a good way. Even though I don't have a lot of experience on acoustics, any time I've sat at any digital, I've chafed at some aspect of what they do or don't do after a very short while. The CP-1, for the 10 minutes I played it didn't chafe. I just wanted to keep playing. It was a digital that was fun, not just acceptable or worse. Like I said, I really thought I was going to buy a $3-4 thousand upright but know I'm not so sure.

Caveat to all: I'm a 6 month beginner on the piano but a 40 year vet of playing other instruments.

Kurt


Excellent assessment, Kurt, and very encouraging. I felt like that when I first played the Avant Grand...it was more of an "experience" than just playing.

It's nice to know about the independent feeling of the notes. They must have really worked on this action.

Did you notice if the action was graded? James is curious to it's construction.

Snazzy
Isn't it weird that the literature doesn't state if the action is graded or not?
Posted By: Kawai James Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/28/10 01:35 AM
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
I can't possibly imagine the action in the CP-1 and CP-5 to be un-graded, James...it is de rigueur for high end digitals.

Yes, that's exactly what I thought. However the reports I have received from colleagues who attended NAMM would suggest otherwise.

By the way, I'm not attempting to undermine Yamaha's latest models - I'm just trying to establish the facts (gosh, I sound like dewster...) about the new NW Stage action. Believe me - I'm looking forward to trying the CP1/CP5 as much as everyone else here (I very much doubt I'll be buying one myself, however...).

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/28/10 05:42 AM
Originally Posted by KAWAI James
(gosh, I sound like dewster...)

You say that like it's a bad thing...
Posted By: Kawai James Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/28/10 05:59 AM
wink
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/28/10 03:55 PM
Originally Posted by KAWAI James
If I was searching for a stage piano to replace an acoustic, this would be something of a deal-breaker for me.

Seeing as how we have a month or two to kill before anyone gets one of these babies in their hot little hands... smile

I'm probably too easy to please when it comes to keys, but I'm curious: is graded really that big of a deal? I can barely tell that our P155 is graded. And I'm not sure if our Studiologic SL-880 (not PRO) is graded or not. Isn't this generally a three zone step function thing anyway, and not a true grading like in a real piano? If so, does anyone ever feel the grading transitions? If so, is it annoying?

If they are really shooting for realism, why don't they "wear in" the keys near the center? Or is that just too real?

I see this grading as a non-ideal thing in a real piano, and if I played more would probably want non-graded just for consistency's sake.
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/28/10 04:05 PM
The best allround weighted action I've ever played was a Yamaha KX-88 controller.

It wasn't graded, nor did I miss it, even after going directly to it from the CP-80M or my Steinway.

My HP-1700 does not have graded or even hammer action, but it is one of my favorites...Roland took a step backwards when they stopped making this action...it was also very reliable and quiet.

Snazzy

Posted By: EssBrace Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/28/10 05:49 PM
Yes, I would ask why the grading is important. I can see in the cases of people switching between a digital and a grand regularly I suppose (although I can barely recognise the grading anyway). But, if you were to design a piano from scratch or set out to make a perfect action then surely all the weighting along the keys would be exactly the same so the keys responded consistently. An acoustic has graded keys because it has to, not because it is desirable.

I've always wondered why there is this obsession to recreate a grand piano action...the action of which is a product of the mechanical necessities involved. I mean in a digital there doesn't need to be hammers because there are no strings. Although I salute their technical achievement I don't get the Roland "escapement" thing either. Again, in a grand that is a side-effect if you like of the mechanics, not any benefit to the player as far as I can tell.

I say the objective should be to create a smooth, agile, responsive and linear feel to the keys rather than to replicate the exact feel of a grand piano, which itself is borne out of a hundred physical compromises because of the task it has to perform. Maybe this is controversial but in theory a DP should have a SUPERIOR action because it is not subject to the constraints/limitations/necessities of an acoustic.

Just my thoughts.

Steve
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/28/10 06:26 PM
Originally Posted by EssBrace
I say the objective should be to create a smooth, agile, responsive and linear feel to the keys rather than to replicate the exact feel of a grand piano, which itself is borne out of a hundred physical compromises because of the task it has to perform. Maybe this is controversial but in theory a DP should have a SUPERIOR action because it is not subject to the constraints/limitations/necessities of an acoustic.

Steve, I totally agree. As DP keyboards are not physically constrained by the mechanics of hammers, strings, dampers, and such, you would think that someone would see it as an opportunity to improve on key actions in general.

This slavish copying of everything in the past is an indication to me that everyone is either too frightened or unimaginative to try anything fundamentally new. Call me a middle-aged fogy, but I miss the old days when nerds were nerds, and the real pioneering work was happening.
Posted By: sullivang Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/29/10 12:31 AM
There's a new (folding!) MIDI controller that has "constant spring force" keys which apparently is very responsive:
http://www.infiniteresponse.com

Only 77 keys, and a tad pricey.

Greg.

Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/29/10 01:08 AM
Originally Posted by sullivang
There's a new (folding!) MIDI controller that has "constant spring force" keys which apparently is very responsive:
http://www.infiniteresponse.com

Only 77 keys, and a tad pricey.

Greg.



This looks pretty cool...it's been talked about and some info was put on the Internet for some time now, but these are the first indications it will actually be sold.

Great design...and definitely pricey.

Snazzy
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/29/10 02:40 AM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
Isn't it weird that the literature doesn't state if the action is graded or not?


In case you haven't seen it yet, Lawrence, someone on the The Keyboard Corner confirmed that it is not graded.

Here is his post,

"No, the NW stage is not graded. In developing this action, a number of different prototypes of the action ( some graded , some not) were developed and evaluated by a selection of pro players playing both the acoustic pianos and the electric pianos. They all felt that overall this action worked better for both the acoustics and the electrics.

The physics of the action in a reed or tine piano is very different than an acoustic piano. Of course , you really have to play it to decide for yourself, but the reaction to the keyboard action at NAMM was very, very positive."


Certainly wouldn't be a deal-breaker for me...as was said earlier, acoustic pianos have to have graded action...digitals can have one that's perfectly even.

Snazzy
Thanks, Snazzy. I had read that.

Interesting that the action represents a compromise for what will work effectively for both the acoustic and electric pianos.

I've certainly read many high opinions of the action, so I suspect that this will not be a deal-breaker for me, either.

I can't wait to try out the CP1 for myself . . . !
Posted By: KrAYZEE Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/29/10 02:53 AM
Originally Posted by daviel




That's a good sign - just about every grand piano I have played seems to want me to keep playing it. It is hard to stop. The reason I quoted that piece above is that if I had the room and did not have to tote a keyboard to gigs and was just starting out - 6 months in to it [jeez I hope you're taking lessons] - it would be a big mistake not to get the upright. I'd want to learn on the real thing - at least practice on it...or get them both! Just my 2 cents.


Real is just a word that means different things to different people. It's an instrument with a slightly odd arrangement of black and white keys that make pitched sounds. For me, personally, it's more about, is it fun to play? Does it reward my technique? Does it suit the music I'l likely want to play? In the case of the CP-1 the sound is much better than the average console that I've ever heard and they've really accomplished a lot in minimizing the digitalitis. I don't think it's as revolutionary as Roland would like us to believe the V-Piano is but I stand by my statement that at the low end, this thing could be a game changer but of course, every player/family will have to come to their own decisions. I do assure you though that I won't be buying anything until I've played a lot more uprights (no space for a grand) and have spent a lot more than 10 minutes with the CP-1.

Yes, I take lessons and practice 1-2 hours a day and am no stranger to other instruments having played drums, guitar, cello and recorder. I hope that gives me more perspective on what's responsive in an instrument than might be inferred from hearing that I've only been playing six months.

Kurt

Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/29/10 02:58 AM
Lawrence,

Two of my favorite actions, the one on the Yamaha KX-88, and the Roland SK-6 Rotary Oil Damped, as found on older RD and HP pianos, are not graded.

Yes, it will be nice to have an actual hands on.

Snazzy
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/29/10 03:36 AM
I don't know it had the best "feel" of any DP board I've played. If its not graded its damm good anyhow.
Posted By: Kawai James Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/29/10 04:23 AM
snazzy, thank you for posting that explanation - it's clear that the Yamaha engineers gave the matter a considerable amount of thought before reaching a decision.

It's very interesting to read everyone's thoughts on this topic.
Fortunately, I'm not searching for an instrument to replace an acoustic - I'm more of an electric piano player (and not much of one at that...), so the non-graded action isn't personally a problem for me.

However, we regularly encounter folks visiting this forum, seeking advice on the purchase of a new digital piano. More often than not they state requirements such as "it should feel as close to an acoustic piano as possible" - surely this also includes characteristics - as antiquated and undesirable as they may be - like graded hammer weights, and even escapement?

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/29/10 04:39 AM
I'd rate the key feel of the top 7 stage boards I've played as follows ...
rated in order of practical playing feel from best to worst the top 7 would be

1) Cp1 Cp5
2) Kawai MPII
3) V-Piano
4) RD700GX Fantom G8
5) Nord Stage
6) Yamaha P155, CP300 etc
7) Yamaha S90XS, XS8, KX88 etc
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/29/10 04:46 AM
I'm thinking these CP-series will be viewed strictly as Stage Pianos and therefore not needing to rigorously adhere to feeling exactly like an acoustic.

Having said that, I doubt if this action will appear on the CLP-series (or CVP), because these are intended for those desiring a replacement for an acoustic...i.e. those taking piano lessons, or who need the feel and response of an acoustic in a more convenient and practical instrument for their circumstances.

And I agree James...graded is an "antiquated feature", but it is desirable to those who want total accuracy in the replication of the acoustic instrument.

I have a feeling I'm going to really like these new CP's.

I wonder if the non-graded applies to the CP-50, which does not use the same action as the CP-1/CP-5?

Snazzy
Posted By: Kawai James Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/29/10 05:12 AM
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
I wonder if the non-graded applies to the CP-50, which does not use the same action as the CP-1/CP-5?


Yes, good point. According to the specifications it uses 'GH keyboard', but doesn't 'GH' stand for 'Graded Hammer'?

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/29/10 05:16 AM
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
I wonder if the non-graded applies to the CP-50, which does not use the same action as the CP-1/CP-5?

Yamaha website says "GH" keyboard on the CP-50, which I assume means Graded Hammer.

I guess I don't really care either way. As long as the AP sound is realistic enough.
Posted By: losthorizon777 Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/29/10 06:35 AM
the price on the CP-300 has come down to 2000 at guitar center and a number of online retailers. Are these new pianos the reason?
The Yamaha literature states that the CP50 action is graded.
Posted By: daviel Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/29/10 02:51 PM
Gig-wise, if the cp50 feels ok, I'll home in on that - preapproved by the hacienda accounting dept. I'd still get a cp300, but if the new piano is good in the cp50 that'll be it. I just need one good piano and one good rhodes, that's all. Even in the boards I have now, I tend to just home in on one favorite piano patch. I'd bet the new models are the reason the cp300 is reduced. Yamaha reduced the cp33, too.
Posted By: pianodilemma Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/29/10 05:20 PM
The lack of a graded action in the Yamaha is a total deal breaker for me with respect to the CP5 and CP1. What were Yamaha product managers and senior management thinking?

To be perfectly blunt, Yamaha has made an extremely serious error. This whole fervor regarding its NW-stage keys without a graded action is far overblown. What's the point of having natural wood keys if the action isn't weighted similar to a real piano? If I wanted to buy a non-graded action, I would buy an S90XS. Of course, that doesn't have the new sound generation engine. It's like they couldn't take the step of deciding one action versus another because they're emulating EPs and APs. I supposed all of the dismay regarding the S90XS is actually warranted given that it doesn't have the new SCM engine and which many of those owners felt left out to the lurch. If the product managers were confused about EP action, the S90XS would've been the DP to have targeted. The Yamaha product managers really appear not to understand the concept of market segmentation particularly well, and I work as an experienced product manager in a sound technology company. Yamaha now has a major gap in their product line (i.e. GH3 or NW-piano action with SCM engine).

And before anyone criticizes me in this regard or becomes an apologist for Yamaha, let me say this: realistic graded actions are very important on a stage piano when you want to transition to a real piano. It's difficult to transition back to a real instrument (in my case, a 1980 Yamaha U3) without some type of realistic action on the DP being playing primarily. I know I would definitely notice since I've been playing acoustic for the last 30+ years and working on several Beethoven sonatas.

My sincere appreciation goes to Kawai James for being persistent on asking this question. Still don't know if you can attach three regular piano pedals, however. If not, then even the CP50 would be out of the running for me, and may yet be anyway given what's coming from other companies.

I think I'll be waiting to see what Kawai puts out in the next few months and making my final decision then since I do like the feel of those pianos. I may even be re-evaluating my decision on the Roland RD700GX. Maybe I should pick up a CP300 for cheap, but it's old technology from a sound generation perspective without tethering a PC with MIDI to it for something like Lounge Lizard or Ivory.

Yamaha, do you not realize that you have purposely put yourselves behind your competitors because of this decision? Do you know you've alienated a significant base of your potential customers because of a major gap in your product line?
Posted By: ChrisA Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/29/10 05:32 PM
Originally Posted by pianodilemma
The lack of a graded action in the Yamaha is a total deal breaker for me with respect to the CP5 and CP1. What were Yamaha product managers and senior management thinking?


I don't know but I can guess..

(1) Most performers never transition between acoustic and digital. For most of them the digital CP1 is the "real thing" meaning that most view it as a instrument in itself and not a copy of something.

(2) Most of the sounds inside are not acoustic pianos but electric pianos and and an organ. Graded would be wrong for those sounds. What was the key feel like on a Fender/Rhodes or a CP-80? If they made the keys like a grand piano it might be unrealistic for the Rhodes.

The CP series are performance instruments. Not home practice instruments (I think that is what the P series is for) CP is for use on stage. Almost by definition if you are on stage with a digital you are NOT playing a classical solo piano piece. So I think these CPs are designed for music where graded weights are not wanted.

Look at some of the other features in CP that work against grated weighting. dividing the keyboard into "zones" is the best example.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/29/10 05:47 PM
Originally Posted by ChrisA
Most of the sounds inside are not acoustic pianos but electric pianos and and an organ. Graded would be wrong for those sounds.

This is the key. The CP1/5/50 are primarily EP, with a side of AP.

I, however, am looking for the exact opposite. Though perhaps the AP (CFIII sample) will be good enough, and the GH action on the CP50 is supposedly better than the keys on our P120.

I really wish I could try one, but it's going to be a while I guess...
Posted By: pianodilemma Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/29/10 05:48 PM
Originally Posted by ChrisA
Originally Posted by pianodilemma
The lack of a graded action in the Yamaha is a total deal breaker for me with respect to the CP5 and CP1. What were Yamaha product managers and senior management thinking?


I don't know but I can guess..

(1) Most performers never transition between acoustic and digital. For most of them the digital CP1 is the "real thing" meaning that most view it as a instrument in itself and not a copy of something.

(2) Most of the sounds inside are not acoustic pianos but electric pianos and and an organ. Graded would be wrong for those sounds. What was the key feel like on a Fender/Rhodes or a CP-80? If they made the keys like a grand piano it might be unrealistic for the Rhodes.

The CP series are performance instruments. Not home practice instruments (I think that is what the P series is for) CP is for use on stage. Almost by definition if you are on stage with a digital you are NOT playing a classical solo piano piece. So I think these CPs are designed for music where graded weights are not wanted.

Look at some of the other features in CP that work against grated weighting. dividing the keyboard into "zones" is the best example.


I never said it should be a home practice instrument. What I am saying is this: if someone plays acoustic piano and can't afford piano movers to move a real piano to every gig t, then one needs a weighted action DP.

Even if all of what your saying is true, then why does the S90XS (with, as I interpret, essentially the same action without wood) exist? Seems like a lot of product overlap to me except that the S90XS appears deficient. And if Roland has this market targeted, then why did they go with a graded action? If Korg targeted the SV-1 at EPs, then why did they go to a graded action?

Again, I've owned a U3 since 1980 and am generally a big fan of Yamaha's pianos. This decision, however, makes no sense.
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/29/10 06:05 PM
Originally Posted by ChrisA


I don't know but I can guess...
The CP series are performance instruments. Not home practice instruments (I think that is what the P series is for) CP is for use on stage. Almost by definition if you are on stage with a digital you are NOT playing a classical solo piano piece. So I think these CPs are designed for music where graded weights are not wanted.

Look at some of the other features in CP that work against grated weighting. dividing the keyboard into "zones" is the best example.


Well said Chris. thumb

Anyone needing an superior instrument for home practise will invariably choose a P-155...one of the best instruments in it's class.

The next P-series will no doubt have the same acoustic piano as the CP-series. Yamaha rarely introduces new home and pro product features at the same time.

These CP instruments are perfect for the performing keyboard/piano player who wants a nice compromise in acoustic and electric piano actions, as well as an evenly balanced controller.

It's not unlike Yamaha to find an opening in the market and develop a superior product to fill it.

I think these new instruments will be a great success. My buddy Zeke has quite a few orders already

Snazzy
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/29/10 06:13 PM
Originally Posted by pianodilemma
Again, I've owned a U3 since 1980 and am generally a big fan of Yamaha's pianos. This decision, however, makes no sense.

I think Yamaha pissed a lot of people with their very strange tiering of these latest CPs. It's like a schizophrenic rabid chimp led the product development meetings.

For instance, everyone is scratching their heads over why the CP1 sounds aren't a true superset of the 5 & 50. A totally boneheaded move on their part, and for most people that's the biggest deal breaker of the lot. Me, I just wish they'd included the other AP in the CP50.
Posted By: EssBrace Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/29/10 06:18 PM
Firstly I don't believe the lack of grading will frustrate a player's ability to switch between a CP-1 and an acoustic. Switching between two acoustics is much more of a problem in my experience because they are all so different.

Secondly I think you will find that most manufacturers use their own or others' generic parts or assemblies. Because graded actions are the norm these days in weighted keyboards, Roland and Korg use what they have as the expense of changing their production lines to make non-graded actions would be prohibitive. In any event Roland's V-Piano is slightly different to the CP-1 (and SV-1) in that it only emulates a piano so I suppose we can understand why their action is graded. But I genuinely believe it is so because Roland and all the other companies have stupidly created this expectation on the part of the customer that actions will be graded...regardless of the benefits...and I perceive the claimed "benefits" to be largely mythical. When graded actions came along on DPs I refuse to accept that it was due to customer demand...initially it was probably a marketing man's idea of product differentiation or a way to claim their product had some added value.

Yamaha are the biggest company in the field and for them it is probably acceptable in economy terms to make a dedicated weighted but non-graded action. Whilst I am a bit sceptical of their "modelling" claim in the CP-1, 5 and 50, I applaud them for equipping the 1 and 5 with a new action that is probably very well suited to the full range of onboard sounds.

Steve
Posted By: pianodilemma Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/29/10 06:38 PM
Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by pianodilemma
Again, I've owned a U3 since 1980 and am generally a big fan of Yamaha's pianos. This decision, however, makes no sense.

I think Yamaha pissed a lot of people with their very strange tiering of these latest CPs. It's like a schizophrenic rabid chimp led the product development meetings.

For instance, everyone is scratching their heads over why the CP1 sounds aren't a true superset of the 5 & 50. A totally boneheaded move on their part, and for most people that's the biggest deal breaker of the lot. Me, I just wish they'd included the other AP in the CP50.


Absolutely correct. There's no reason, technical or otherwise, that Yamaha wouldn't have been able to include the CP5/50 sounds in the CP1. Nor was there any reason to not include downloadable or customizable DX7 banks. The amount of DSP horsepower in todays embedded processors is much greater than what existed today, and this was easily doable to replace the FS1R or a slaved DX7 to do FM that's required now.

I also mentioned the S90XS, and the controversy that surrounded that appears now to be fully warranted. As you can see, the apologists came out in force very quickly on this one and none addressed that issue, i.e. a non-graded action S90XS should have taken the place of the CP1/CP5, and at least one of the CP1 or CP5 should have had GH3 or NW-piano even if both didn't offer it. Granted, the CP50 has a graded action, but there are newer and better actions coming from numerous other manufacturers. And I still don't know if you can attach three piano pedals to a CP50. Regardless of the variations between APs, the relative variation on any one AP is the point of having graded actions and that might be my last hope before I move on seriously to a competitor.

If I were in Roland's, Korg's or Kawai's marketing department, I'd be harping on this point incessantly in my web and print literature.
Posted By: sullivang Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/29/10 06:39 PM
It would be nice if Yamaha provided the option of choosing a graded action in the CP1/5 at some stage.

Greg.
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/29/10 07:02 PM
Originally Posted by pianodilemma


If I were in Roland's, Korg's or Kawai's marketing department, I'd be harping on this point incessantly in my web and print literature.


Thankfully for those companies you aren't...drawing more attention to Yamaha's clever new action would be disastrous if not downright suicidal.

It's more likely they'll be all trying to copy it, in one form or another, in the near future.

Snazzy
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/29/10 07:18 PM
Originally Posted by pianodilemma
Absolutely correct. There's no reason, technical or otherwise, that Yamaha wouldn't have been able to include the CP5/50 sounds in the CP1. Nor was there any reason to not include downloadable or customizable DX7 banks. The amount of DSP horsepower in todays embedded processors is much greater than what existed today, and this was easily doable to replace the FS1R or a slaved DX7 to do FM that's required now.

While we're sitting here wishing for things Yamaha would never even consider doing for us:

1. For the CP50 I'd pay $200 to $300 extra (retail) for a DX7 in there that would take legacy patches.
2. Depending on what it sounds like, I'd maybe pay $100 extra for the S6B patch - or, even better, a downloadable AP option.

Call it an even $2k USD retail and I'd be all over it (provided the APs have acceptable decay).
Posted By: pianodilemma Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/29/10 07:38 PM
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
Originally Posted by pianodilemma


If I were in Roland's, Korg's or Kawai's marketing department, I'd be harping on this point incessantly in my web and print literature.


Thankfully for those companies you aren't...drawing more attention to Yamaha's clever new action would be disastrous if not downright suicidal.

It's more likely they'll be all trying to copy it, in one form or another, in the near future.

Snazzy


It's not a "clever" action, and it's unfortunate and apparently sensitive for some people that I've exposed the gap. NW-piano wood slapped onto what appears to be a S90XS' action. Not only is that not ground breaking, it's poor segmentation and a gap in a product line. Obviously if people are asking for a modern graded action and a modern sound engine in a stage piano, and not getting what they ask for, there's a gap regardless of what your opinion is. There is only an old graded action with the new sound engine (GH and SCM on the CP50).

The product line should, in my opinion, look like this:

Synths:
S70XS - BHE action, SCM and AWM2 engine, limited EPs
S90XS - NW-stage action, SCM and AWM2 engine, FM Synthesis and Motif engine, special emphasis on EPs

Digital Pianos:
CP50 - GH action, SCM engine with more limited selection of APs and EPs
CP5 - GH3 action, SCM and AWM2 engine
CP1 - Graded NW-piano (i.e. GH3+wood) action, SCM and AWM2 engine, FM synthesis engine w/tweaks, special emphasis on DPs and EPs

Given the above, there is clear differentiation across the product line based primarily on actions, but also on capabilities of the sound engines involved. Basically, the CP1 tends towards what the S90XS should have been, and the S90XS would have had the "clever" action. The top-of-the-line Synth and top-of-the-line digital piano would have a clear differentiation across specific markets with similar pricing depending on which action you wanted. I didn't cover workstations, though the flagship workstation should definitely have all of the sound engines listed above and then some. In fact, I'd question whether the CP5 would need to exist.

In any event, it's a much more thorough analysis than anyone has given at this point in the thread.
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/29/10 07:59 PM
Originally Posted by pianodilemma



It's not a "clever" action,



Again, another reason why you shouldn't be allowed anywhere near marketing departments, old chum. wink

I think it's very clever, and a very clever marketing move, and so do quite a few others.

So, the product doesn't suit you? The U3 doesn't suit me.

It's hard to please everybody, but trying to that usually ends in failure anyway.

Yamaha's marketing mavens are very thorough, and the company seldom makes mistakes....and, in my opinion, it hasn't made one in this case.

Snazzy

Posted By: pianodilemma Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/29/10 08:25 PM
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
Originally Posted by pianodilemma



It's not a "clever" action,



Again, another reason why you shouldn't be allowed anywhere near marketing departments, old chum. wink

I think it's very clever, and a very clever marketing move, and so do quite a few others.

So, the product doesn't suit you? The U3 doesn't suit me.

It's hard to please everybody, but trying to that usually ends in failure anyway.

Yamaha's marketing mavens are very thorough, and the company seldom makes mistakes....and, in my opinion, it hasn't made one in this case.

Snazzy



Again, I work as a product manager at a successful sound technology company that does CODEC and audio post-processing implementations on embedded DSPs and SoCs for live sound equipment. Apparently, you are either (a) affiliated with Yamaha, in which case you are attempting to defend them without addressing anything else I've mentioned above, or (b) not affiliated with Yamaha, in which case you have no idea of their competence other than to analyze their products on the outside. You don't even use product management terminology in your speech, so I can only speculate on your expertise based on your comments, much less your conceptually limited qualification of my skills and experience.

Would you now care to address my comments on the S70/90XS vs. CP1/5/50 above, particularly as regards modern graded versus non-graded actions?
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/29/10 08:34 PM
Originally Posted by pianodilemma



Again, I work as a product manager at a successful sound technology company that does CODEC and audio post-processing implementations on embedded DSPs and SoCs for live sound equipment.


So that's why you feel you are qualified to analyse Yamaha's marketing strategies?

Don't wait by the phone. wink

Snazzy
Posted By: daviel Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/29/10 08:35 PM
I think the CP1 is just intended to be a statement by Yamaha. For $5,000 it is the best iteration of the best piano. It's not intended for a mass market do all with synth sounds general midi board. It's to show what Yamaha can do. So far as action goes, there are so many boards on the market these days if one cannot find an action that suits it puzzles me. That is all subjective and preference based anyway. Maybe I don't understand the issue because the actions don't bother me. I have never had an issue with boards' action. And Yamaha product buzz words/language - should we be posting in Japanese? excuse me, I have scales to run...
Posted By: pianodilemma Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/29/10 08:37 PM
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
Originally Posted by pianodilemma



Again, I work as a product manager at a successful sound technology company that does CODEC and audio post-processing implementations on embedded DSPs and SoCs for live sound equipment.


So that's why you feel you are qualified to analyse Yamaha's marketing strategies?

Don't wait by the phone. wink

Snazzy


So tell me about the S90XS comment above. What do you think?
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/29/10 08:40 PM
Originally Posted by daviel


Maybe I don't understand the issue because the actions don't bother me. I have never had an issue with boards' action.


They don't bother me much either, unless they are noisy or uneven.

We must remember, it's the cook, not the stove. wink

Snazzy
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/29/10 08:44 PM
[quote=pianodilemma
So tell me about the S90XS comment above. What do you think? [/quote]

Sorry son, I'm no more qualified than you are.

Snazzy
Well, I discovered that the CP1 is at my "local" music store - 30 min down the highway. They were supposed to call me when it came in, but didn't. It apparently arrived at the store and was setup TWO days ago (sigh).

I'll post my impressions later this evening.

Lawrence
Posted By: Colleen_500 Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/29/10 09:30 PM
Originally Posted by pianodilemma


Again, I work as a product manager at a successful sound technology company that does CODEC and audio post-processing implementations on embedded DSPs and SoCs for live sound equipment.


I'm usually a unregistered lurker on this forum, but I have been following this thread with some interest, and just had to make a comment, or perhaps, a query.

What does your job as a "product manager a successful sound technology company that does CODEC and audio post-processing implementations on embedded DSPs and SoCs for live sound equipment" have to do with the design, promotion and implementation of graded or non-graded key mechanisms in digital pianos and synthesizers?

Maybe I'm missing something, but how does that put you in a position to decide if a company has made dumb decisions?

Wouldn't it be far wiser to let the product come to market, and let, not only qualified musicians decide whether it's the "cat's meow", but also let it's sales success, or lack thereof, indicate just how "clever" or not so clever it is?

Colleen
Posted By: pianodilemma Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/29/10 10:24 PM
Originally Posted by Colleen_500
Originally Posted by pianodilemma


Again, I work as a product manager at a successful sound technology company that does CODEC and audio post-processing implementations on embedded DSPs and SoCs for live sound equipment.


I'm usually a unregistered lurker on this forum, but I have been following this thread with some interest, and just had to make a comment, or perhaps, a query.

What does your job as a "product manager a successful sound technology company that does CODEC and audio post-processing implementations on embedded DSPs and SoCs for live sound equipment" have to do with the design, promotion and implementation of graded or non-graded key mechanisms in digital pianos and synthesizers?

Maybe I'm missing something, but how does that put you in a position to decide if a company has made dumb decisions?

Wouldn't it be far wiser to let the product come to market, and let, not only qualified musicians decide whether it's the "cat's meow", but also let it's sales success, or lack thereof, indicate just how "clever" or not so clever it is?

Colleen


This is a valid question, and I will give a valid answer.

First, you should re-read what I wrote above regarding market and product segmentation. To be clear, the product segmentation is primarily based on action and sound generation. This is how all instruments are ultimately evaluated for most people. There are other issues such as connectivity, user interface, and the like, but none is of as much significance as these two characteristics.

Second, and on that basis, the simple conclusions that one comes to are:

a. Yamaha does not currently offer a stage piano with a more modern graded action and a modern sound engine.
b. In making a flagship stage piano with non-graded action, they encroach on the feature set of the S90XS product line.
c. The concept of
d. It would not have been difficult to put a more modern or complete action.

Third, regarding why I mentioned my job qualifications and where I work, I will say that I have heard it time and again that a realistic piano simulation is extremely difficult to do but a necessary part of performing from the folks we support. We hear this all the time from performing artists, and they struggle to find a balance between cost and convenience. The folks who run the board are hard-pressed to do a proper mix and compensate for the deficiencies of the system (i.e. instrument, amps/speakers, mic (unless DI), etc.). The largest artists simply don't care, since they have enough money to haul around everything they want and have some pretty ridiculous riders (though some of the more famous folks in country music are REALLY nice). But there's a large segment of regional and local artists that have the same concerns and don't make as much money, frequently holding down multiple jobs to make a living. They want authenticity of feel and they want sound because both go hand-in-hand for live performance. My company deals with the sound aspect of this, but I've discussed this new stage piano with our support people and I ask them what they want. We reflect market reality in products, and there are a lot of instruments that are or have been controversial in one way or another. I truly don't believe, given what I've heard from our support guys, that this feature set in the new Yamaha CPs reflects market reality across the board. I'm sure they will get a lot of customers, don't get me wrong. I simply believe they will alienate a certain significant portion of their customer base who is looking for a stage piano, i.e. a piano replacement. Not a weighted keyboard, not a keyboard with piano sounds, but a stage piano.

One more thing that I will mention to you and everyone else: if you want to discuss the facts of my concerns, then address them. I still haven't heard a single word addressing them other than a lot of odd emotionally-based responses.
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/29/10 10:34 PM
Originally Posted by pianodilemma
The lack of a graded action in the Yamaha is a total deal breaker for me with respect to the CP5 and CP1. What were Yamaha product managers and senior management thinking?



So what did you think of the feel of the CP1 action when you played it ?
Posted By: Colleen_500 Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/29/10 11:06 PM
Originally Posted by pianodilemma


I simply believe they will alienate a certain significant portion of their customer base who is looking for a stage piano, i.e. a piano replacement. Not a weighted keyboard, not a keyboard with piano sounds, but a stage piano.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but how do you know they aren't planning to come out with a new "P" series piano, as has been mentioned?

It seems quite obvious to me, but not to you, that the CP is not intended for people looking for a "piano replacement"; that is already taken care of with products in the home segment such as the "P" pianos, and of course the CLP as well.

I believe, as has also been stated here, that there is no need of graded action on a piano that strives to cover both electric and acoustic; this concept of grading, in my view, is more of a marketing tool than anything else, and I also feel that Steve's opinion, that the other companies are forced to use what they have, instead of a developing a more appropriate action for a versatile stage piano, is dead on.

Let's face it; Korg's SV-1 action is third party Fatar (and frowningly horrible for it's intended purpose), and Roland has no actions in their stable whatsoever so fitting for this type of instrument.

I play primarily classical, and I for one, will not mind using an ungraded keyboard; just because an acoustic piano is forced to have these characteristics, does not mean we have to suffer through them on an electronic piano, especially one designed to embrace the more contemporary player.

I'm not interested in how Yamaha does it's product placement, but, so far, they have always managed to find and fit the right tool to the job.

What we are discussing here, is complaints after the fact; the instruments are made and being sold. No amount of grinding your teeth, and wishing this and that, and criticizing their methods and motives is going to change anything.

If you need a "piano replacement" wait and buy one of the bound to be updated "P" series when they come out, and make your wishes and wants known about a future instrument; not one we haven't a hope in heck of changing.

Colleen
Posted By: daviel Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/29/10 11:23 PM
We are over-thinking this thing. IIRC a couple of the forumites are awaiting delivery, and another is going to report back on his impressions playing the C1 tonight. I personally do not give a rat's backside how Yamaha markets its products, but so far they're doing a good job of satisfying me. Thank God their accelerators don't stick.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/29/10 11:26 PM
I'm living in hope (veiled Rutles reference) that someone influential in Yamaha product development reads these forums, and uses our opinions as constructive feedback for future products.

I just hope he or she is the amiable sort who doesn't take being called a schizophrenic rabid chimp too much to heart.
Posted By: daviel Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/29/10 11:38 PM

Is the complaint that Yamaha CP1,CP5,and CP50 have graded action, or is the complaint that they don't have it?

All the stuff I read says all three have a "graded hammer action", for example,

<http://europe.yamaha.com/en/news_events/musical_instruments/2009/cp_pianos/>

Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/29/10 11:46 PM
Originally Posted by daviel
Is the complaint that Yamaha CP1,CP5,and CP50 have graded action, or is the complaint that they don't have it?

Those who care about graded hammer action are complaining about the reported absence of it in the CP1/5.

Originally Posted by daviel
All the stuff I read says all three have a "graded hammer action", for example,

<http://europe.yamaha.com/en/news_events/musical_instruments/2009/cp_pianos/>

If you look closely at that, they only mention "graded hammer action" in the CP50 section.
Posted By: Colleen_500 Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/29/10 11:46 PM
Originally Posted by dewster
I'm living in hope (veiled Rutles reference) that someone influential in Yamaha product development reads these forums, and uses our opinions as constructive feedback for future products.

I just hope he or she is the amiable sort who doesn't take being called a schizophrenic rabid chimp too much to heart.


I know for certain these forums are read by Yamaha reps.

Don't ask me how I know, but I know.

If we were to read back on this forum, and perhaps on Keyboard Magazine's forum, we might be surprised at how many requests (in bits and pieces) there were for Yamaha to make the CP the way it is.

Now that it's here, every arm chair keyboard designer and digital piano expert are all over it; too late friends. It's done. It's here. Buy or don't buy.

I play in a band, and the CP-1 (or CP-5}looks very promising to me; hopefully I'll get to try one very soon.

I really believe the ungraded action idea will be copied by the others, because these CP pianos have set a new standard, in my opinion.

Colleen

Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/30/10 12:01 AM
Originally Posted by Colleen_500
I know for certain these forums are read by Yamaha reps.

Don't ask me how I know, but I know.

You're teasing us Colleen. Can't you dish in a way that won't get anyone in trouble?
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/30/10 12:04 AM
Originally Posted by Colleen_500


What we are discussing here, is complaints after the fact; the instruments are made and being sold. No amount of grinding your teeth, and wishing this and that, and criticizing their methods and motives is going to change anything.

Colleen


Well said, Colleen.

What amuses me even more, is that most of these "armchair keyboard designers"(your words, not mine) have not even seen or played the CP series pianos...yet they complain, without even so much as trying the instruments.

A tad presumptuous, if not actually closed minded, I think. wink

Snazzy
Posted By: daviel Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/30/10 12:20 AM
+1 Snazz! The Lazy-boy-Horowitz-radio-shack faction is assuming the "nw-stage weighted keys" means no graded hammer or whatever the heck, without as much as having driven past a GC with a CP1 inside on the floor, much less having actually played one! I will bet lunch on me that a blindfold test with 95% of them could not tell the difference playing one. Preemptive complaining!!
Posted By: Colleen_500 Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/30/10 12:40 AM
Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by Colleen_500
I know for certain these forums are read by Yamaha reps.

Don't ask me how I know, but I know.

You're teasing us Colleen. Can't you dish in a way that won't get anyone in trouble?


I'm sorry, but I can't say much more or name names.

But, you have my word that this forum is regularly read by Yamaha reps.

I'm pretty sure that Roland and Kawai have this place checked out as well; there must be one or the other represented here by someone?

Are you considering the CP-50? Does graded hammer action play that much of a role in your playing? Perhaps you prefer acoustic piano sounds over the electric, and want more realism?

I like the idea of ungraded; I've played Rhodes piano in church, and loved the even feel, but I wasn't entirely happy with the action; it probably could have been set up better(regulation on a Rhodes?).

It may be woman's intuition, but I have a feeling these pianos will be embraced by many well known top drawer players, which will guarantee their acceptance by regular Joes and Janes. I've heard it said that we often "hear with our eyes" and many players like to mimic their heroes and heroines; not that the CP's won't be worthy. It's just human nature to copy.

Colleen


Posted By: pianodilemma Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/30/10 12:51 AM
Originally Posted by Colleen_500
Originally Posted by pianodilemma
I simply believe they will alienate a certain significant portion of their customer base who is looking for a stage piano, i.e. a piano replacement. Not a weighted keyboard, not a keyboard with piano sounds, but a stage piano.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but how do you know they aren't planning to come out with a new "P" series piano, as has been mentioned?


I think there's an issue of semantics on whether CP's vs. P's are stage pianos. The fact is that the CP300 is the predecessor in that stage piano product line from Yamaha's own website and has a superior action with regards to grading than the new pianos. Maybe this is a brand/product category issue. Maybe it means that I go for the CP50 (although nobody has answered my three pedal question).

Quote
It seems quite obvious to me, but not to you, that the CP is not intended for people looking for a "piano replacement"; that is already taken care of with products in the home segment such as the "P" pianos, and of course the CLP as well.


I think it's quite clear to me what the new CPs are and aren't replacing based solely on the basic features I've already said. Remember what happened with Coke and New Coke? It caused a lot of confusion and backlash because of people's expectations. That's Yamaha's job to manage the product line impressions for customers in an easy way, not for me to sit and sift through detailed technical specifications to try to find what I like when the predecessor product had a clear feature set and purpose.

Quote
I believe, as has also been stated here, that there is no need of graded action on a piano that strives to cover both electric and acoustic; this concept of grading, in my view, is more of a marketing tool than anything else, and I also feel that Steve's opinion, that the other companies are forced to use what they have, instead of a developing a more appropriate action for a versatile stage piano, is dead on.


Dead on for you and others, not dead on for me and others. If you sincerely believe that graded actions are a marketing tool, then I believe that you are mistaken. I've played the S90ES and XS, and still prefer the CP300. I can feel more weight in the bass keys as is on a real piano, and there hasn't been a single non-graded action I think feels anywhere near an acoustic piano. That you claim to play piano and can't realize this is puzzling, but I won't make an issue of it. And as far as actions goes, there are actions for all types of music. The action of the DX7 we had in middle school was very different than my U3, and took a lot of time to get used to. At that time, merely having velocity-sensitive keys was appreciated, but they were all equal and it took a while to use. Even more importantly, the piano action is noticeably heavier, and this can affect one's ability to play an acoustic. I certainly wouldn't have had the chops on piano that I do if I learned on a non-weighted action.

Quote
Let's face it; Korg's SV-1 action is third party Fatar (and frowningly horrible for it's intended purpose), and Roland has no actions in their stable whatsoever so fitting for this type of instrument.


I agree that Korg's action isn't that great compared to the Yamaha, Kawai or Roland actions (and I have other issues with the SV-1 after playing it such as relative non-tweakability of the EPs). It is still graded, however. It's a feature. But again, this is a stage piano, i.e. a replacement for it.

I think I see now part of the confusion between your position and mine - that Yamaha hasn't clearly delineated that the new CPs are more for electric piano simulations than real pianos. And that's fine. I just don't think they're being as up front about it as they need to be, and this is the point of discussing this in a thread. And IF that is the case, then the action is definitely more appropriate to be non-graded as it was in the older EPs. But to say this is a replacement for the CP300 is untrue, and I think a lot of Yamaha fans like myself have been waiting to get the higher-end piano actions (GH3 and NW-piano) in a portable instrument.

Quote
I play primarily classical, and I for one, will not mind using an ungraded keyboard; just because an acoustic piano is forced to have these characteristics, does not mean we have to suffer through them on an electronic piano, especially one designed to embrace the more contemporary player.


Let me state again: real acoustic instruments will continue to exist for the foreseeable future. That being the case, we need to be able to sit down at one and play one when that's all that's around. I can guarantee that long-term playing on a non-graded action will result in a more difficult transition back to a real acoustic instrument. That is why I don't want this in the instrument I buy.

Quote
I'm not interested in how Yamaha does it's product placement, but, so far, they have always managed to find and fit the right tool to the job.


I think you mean product segmentation, but I actually am interested because I see a gap.

Quote
What we are discussing here, is complaints after the fact; the instruments are made and being sold. No amount of grinding your teeth, and wishing this and that, and criticizing their methods and motives is going to change anything.


Why do you assume I'm grinding my teeth over this issue? Frankly, I'm trying to have a level-headed discussion with a very minimum of emotion and I keep seeing a bunch of these emotionally-driven comments which is simply bizarre to me. I fully recognize that "that's that" when it comes to Yamaha's line for now. But I'm a consumer, and if my needs are not met (which appears that they may not be), then I vote with my feet and see what else is out there.

Quote
If you need a "piano replacement" wait and buy one of the bound to be updated "P" series when they come out, and make your wishes and wants known about a future instrument; not one we haven't a hope in heck of changing.

Colleen


I guarantee that I will buy what meets my needs. I would've preferred it be Yamaha, but I'm loyal to myself before I'm loyal to a political party or brand or whatever other identifiable group there is.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/30/10 01:00 AM
Originally Posted by Colleen_500
Are you considering the CP-50?

On the off-chance the CFIII patch is good enough. If it is I'll get one in a second.

Originally Posted by Colleen_500
Does graded hammer action play that much of a role in your playing? Perhaps you prefer acoustic piano sounds over the electric, and want more realism?

Like you, ungraded keys are a plus, but it doesn't really make that much difference to me, Yamaha keys are always fine.

It's all about the AP patch.
Posted By: Colleen_500 Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/30/10 01:24 AM
Originally Posted by pianodilemma



That you claim to play piano and can't realize this is puzzling, but I won't make an issue of it.


There is really not much of an issue you can make.

I adapt very quickly to different keyboard actions; some people do not.

I still think you are making a big fuss over something that's all done. Do you expect to change it, now that it is in production?

But, persist if you must; I think your energy and persistence would be better directed at the home piano division. The "P" will be made over, so why not start a thread on what you (or we) would like to see on the next model? It's rather late discussing the CP series, but a new "P" series won't be here for about two years, unless they are planning to produce a model above the P-155.

So, get your druthers in now, while it's possible to steer the good ship Yamaha (more like a tanker) slowly towards a super portable home piano.

I think it's silly, and much too late, to criticize the CP pianos; the horse is gone, and it's too late to close the barn door. We will soon enough know if Yamaha was wise or not to make these instruments ungraded. Remember, they have researched this market ahead of production; you are trying to find a reason behind it after the fact; you won't find it, unless you know somebody deep within Yamaha's design department.

The Avant Grand was a breakthrough in digital design. I played one, and it's the best electronic piano made anywhere, if one wants to be swept up in the experience of an acoustic piano without the fuss and muss. These past years Yamaha have been changing, and are focusing more on the player's experience when playing, and I feel these CP pianos are the by-product of this alteration in thinking.


Colleen
Posted By: ChrisA Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/30/10 01:37 AM
Originally Posted by pianodilemma

b. In making a flagship stage piano with non-graded action, they encroach on the feature set of the S90XS product line.


Perhaps the S90 is not going to be continued. This could be part of a reorganization of the various product lines. We don't really know.

We don't have access to their market research. It could be they found enough keyboard player who complained about "those darn grand piano-like" key actions on their electric pianos.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/30/10 01:50 AM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
I'll post my impressions later this evening.

Am I the only one here biting their fingernails and refreshing the page every two minutes?

Someone who beta tests PC pianos & piano samples, and who owns a freakin' V-Piano (and is dissatisfied with the sound, no less!) is the perfect person for this mission.

Godspeed Lawrence, I hope you brought some good headphones with you behind enemy lines.
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/30/10 01:52 AM
Originally Posted by Colleen_500
Originally Posted by pianodilemma



That you claim to play piano and can't realize this is puzzling, but I won't make an issue of it.


There is really not much of an issue you can make.

I adapt very quickly to different keyboard actions; some people do not.

The Avant Grand was a breakthrough in digital design. I played one, and it's the best electronic piano made anywhere, if one wants to be swept up in the experience of an acoustic piano without the fuss and muss. These past years Yamaha have been changing, and are focusing more on the player's experience when playing, and I feel these CP pianos are the by-product of this alteration in thinking. Colleen


I'm the same way with different actions...never a problem.

When you think of it, guitar players usually play/own several guitars, each with it own action...they adjust pretty easy.

I'm also with you on the Avant Grand....I've often described it as "an experience" rather than just a play. I sold mine, because I expect them to come up with an even more featured model.

Yamaha certainly seems to have a different approach lately...like you, I'm really looking forward to the CP-series.

Snazzy

Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/30/10 01:55 AM
And here I was just about to formally introduce you two. smile

*ahem*

Colleen, meet Snazzy. Sanzzy, this is Colleen.
Posted By: Kawai James Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/30/10 02:10 AM
I believe ChrisA/dewster are spot on about the intended purpose for these new models - the emphasis appears to be on electric pianos (hence the amp simulations), rather than acoustic.

I'm sure the acoustic piano sounds are absolutely fantastic (they certainly impressed my colleagues who attended NAMM), and will offer a considerable amount of 'tweak-ability' - second only to the V-Piano - allowing performers to match that popular 'Elton John' sound.

Therefore it arguably doesn't matter if the keyboard is not graded and a little light - these new instruments are not intended to replace an acoustic. They're for band players who need a barking Rhodes and an acoustic patch that 'cuts through' the mix.

Individuals that play a largely classical repertoire (or 'big-time concertos' as one of the more idiosyncratic PW members would say) are not the target audience for these new CP instruments. Such players that require the touch of an acoustic piano will, as others have suggested, purchase a P155 (or successor model), Clavinova, or an instrument from an alternative brand such as Roland or KAWAI.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Colleen_500 Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/30/10 02:15 AM
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer


When you think of it, guitar players usually play/own several guitars, each with it own action...they adjust pretty easy.

I'm also with you on the Avant Grand....I've often described it as "an experience" rather than just a play. I sold mine, because I expect them to come up with an even more featured model. Yamaha certainly seems to have a different approach lately...like you, I'm really looking forward to the CP-series.

Snazzy



Hi Snazzy,

I think we may have a mutual friend here in Canada.

What a great analogy with the guitars and players; I could never understand why people made such a fuss from switching from one type keyboard instrument to another. I think it mostly affects the die-hard, starched shorts piano players. Hee hee.

If the rumors are true, we may be seeing another Avant Grand next year, but it is unclear whether it will be below the N2, or above the N3.

I understand you are a vintage synthesizer collector; how very interesting. The only things I collect are shoes; I'm a regular Imelda Marcos. Ha Ha.

I believe you and I and Dewster are all very excited about these new CP pianos. I'm looking forward to hearing Lawrence's review.

Colleen



Posted By: pianodilemma Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/30/10 02:23 AM
Originally Posted by Colleen_500
Originally Posted by pianodilemma


That you claim to play piano and can't realize this is puzzling, but I won't make an issue of it.


There is really not much of an issue you can make.

I adapt very quickly to different keyboard actions; some people do not.


I admit I've gotten better over time at adapting, but I don't want to veer too far from my primary instrument. If you think adapting to different piano actions is difficult, try adjusting from a four-string Geddy Lee Fender Jazz bass to a six-string Warwick Thumb. Doable, but if you have small hands it can be very challenging, and if the action is too high may not even be possible to play at the same speed on both. The other aspect of my comment was simply one of your statement regarding graded actions being marketing. From a pure technical perspective, and from the perspective of those it's important to, it's a critical feature. That you don't value it does not mean that others find no value in it. But it's a very real and tangible feature regardless of your opinion or mine.

Quote
I still think you are making a big fuss over something that's all done. Do you expect to change it, now that it is in production?


I already answered what I can change and what I can't. Please re-read my post above if you have any questions on this. However, I believe that a proposed product line merits continued discussion in order to explore what might or might not be good in general for people.

Quote
But, persist if you must; I think your energy and persistence would be better directed at the home piano division. The "P" will be made over, so why not start a thread on what you (or we) would like to see on the next model? It's rather late discussing the CP series, but a new "P" series won't be here for about two years, unless they are planning to produce a model above the P-155.


I can't do that, because I technically haven't excluded the CP50. Granted, it's a lot more of a compromise from the availability of EPs and APs, but it's also cheaper and lighter.

Quote
So, get your druthers in now, while it's possible to steer the good ship Yamaha (more like a tanker) slowly towards a super portable home piano.


If Yamaha cares enough to change in the next three months, or six months, then so be it. I'm here to air valid concerns. If they don't care, so be it. I'm still going to discuss their pianos, existing or proposed, as I see fit.

Quote
I think it's silly, and much too late, to criticize the CP pianos; the horse is gone, and it's too late to close the barn door. We will soon enough know if Yamaha was wise or not to make these instruments ungraded. Remember, they have researched this market ahead of production; you are trying to find a reason behind it after the fact; you won't find it, unless you know somebody deep within Yamaha's design department.


It's not silly to criticize. The ability to criticize is one of the most important aspects of any process, be it business or technical or educational or political. This is an open forum, and we're free to make our opinions made known. If we don't criticize, we don't improve or learn. Everything is ok as-is.

Quote
The Avant Grand was a breakthrough in digital design. I played one, and it's the best electronic piano made anywhere, if one wants to be swept up in the experience of an acoustic piano without the fuss and muss. These past years Yamaha have been changing, and are focusing more on the player's experience when playing, and I feel these CP pianos are the by-product of this alteration in thinking.

Colleen


I agree that Avant Grand is fantastic even if it's not portable. Obviously, some aspects of it could be (the electronics and keys), and some just can't be (like the speaker system and its cabinet). What I guess you seem to not be able to acknowledge is that some of us value some of those features even if we can't get all of them. Studio monitors are great but don't replicate the sound the same way as the Avant Grand's speakers and chassis do.

What is quite fascinating to me, however, is (a) that you joined simply to comment to me, (b) your continued avoidance of discussion of a proposed set of features which might have made more sense, (c) your certainty that Yamaha people are reading this forum, and (d) your continued insistence on referring the P series. Is there a Myspace or Facebook page for your band? I would really like to see the type of music you play so I could get a better perspective of possibly understanding why you might not value graded actions (e.g. lots of synth parts where a straight-up synth action might be better, soundscaping, etc.).
Posted By: pianodilemma Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/30/10 02:30 AM
Originally Posted by ChrisA
Originally Posted by pianodilemma

b. In making a flagship stage piano with non-graded action, they encroach on the feature set of the S90XS product line.


Perhaps the S90 is not going to be continued. This could be part of a reorganization of the various product lines. We don't really know.

We don't have access to their market research. It could be they found enough keyboard player who complained about "those darn grand piano-like" key actions on their electric pianos.


You're 100% correct. All I'm wondering is why Yamaha hasn't made an affirmative statement on this. I think it's fine to have a DP that tends towards EP roots (which is patently obvious by the sounds), but some of us have been forgotten about and some other manufacturers have some suddenly more attractive alternatives that could have easily been fulfilled.

The amount of effort to fully develop and launch a product is not something that would be warranted by such a short product lifespan. They'd just lose money, and there's no point to losing money unless you're strategically displacing someone else's product (which I'm certain the S90XS hasn't).
Posted By: Kawai James Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/30/10 02:33 AM
Originally Posted by pianodilemma
Still don't know if you can attach three regular piano pedals


Judging from the specifications table printed in the new CP brochure and listed on the Yamahasynth.com website, I don't believe so. The CP1 includes a three pedal unit (brand new?), and offers sustain, sostenuto, soft, and assiganable foot switch connectors. However the CP5/CP50 includes the regular FC3 pedal, and just sustain and assignable foot switch connectors.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: pianodilemma Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/30/10 02:44 AM
Originally Posted by KAWAI James
Originally Posted by pianodilemma
Still don't know if you can attach three regular piano pedals


Judging from the specifications table printed in the new CP brochure and listed on the Yamahasynth.com website, I don't believe so. The CP1 includes a three pedal unit (brand new?), and offers sustain, sostenuto, soft, and assiganable foot switch connectors. However the CP5/CP50 includes the regular FC3 pedal, and just sustain and assignable foot switch connectors.

Kind regards,
James
x


That's what I thought too. However, I'm wondering if MIDI pedals might work. Somewhat clunky, but ok to me.
Posted By: Colleen_500 Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/30/10 02:51 AM
Originally Posted by pianodilemma


What is quite fascinating to me, however, is (a) that you joined simply to comment to me, (b) your continued avoidance of discussion of a proposed set of features which might have made more sense, (c) your certainty that Yamaha people are reading this forum, and (d) your continued insistence on referring the P series. Is there a Myspace or Facebook page for your band? I would really like to see the type of music you play so I could get a better perspective of possibly understanding why you might not value graded actions (e.g. lots of synth parts where a straight-up synth action might be better, soundscaping, etc.).


Let me see; I'll try and address your fascinations.

(a)I actually registered two days ago, and my response to your post was merely because I wondered why you criticized Yamaha's approach to the CP series.

(b) I'm simply not interested.

(c)I know what I know, and I'm simply not at liberty to reveal names.

(d) The "P" series seemed to be more what you'd be looking for; the CP's ungraded action is not to your liking.

The "band" is a church group, and no, we're not on Facebook. I played in a band in high school as well.

I don't feel graded actions have no value; I simply think Yamaha's idea for an ungraded actioned stage piano is better than if it was graded. I do feel that graded isn't necessary for my playing, and I do feel it was only implemented on acoustic pianos because of the inherent nature of the instrument.

Wouldn't you rather if all keyboards had an even action? If they could make an acoustic piano with ungraded keys, would you still prefer graded?

The only time I would prefer a synth type action would be for organ playing, but I already have an A-100 with a 122 Leslie cabinet at the church.

Do you play in a band?

Colleen







Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/30/10 03:13 AM
Originally Posted by Colleen_500


I understand you are a vintage synthesizer collector; how very interesting. The only things I collect are shoes; I'm a regular Imelda Marcos. Ha Ha. Colleen


Yes, I am Colleen, but it is a modest collection compared to some...I do have two that are considered very rare...a Korg PS-3200, and a Yamaha GS-1.

Yes, our mutual friend was instrumental (pun intended) in my procuring these two synths...I was up to see him a few weeks ago and got back on the 26th. Cool guy.

I'm probably going to go for the CP-5, although I'll be trying the CP-1 as soon as it arrives at the store.

PM me and I'll give you my phone # and email addy.

Snazzy
Posted By: Zinfan Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/30/10 03:24 AM
Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
I'll post my impressions later this evening.

Am I the only one here biting their fingernails and refreshing the page every two minutes?

Someone who beta tests PC pianos & piano samples, and who owns a freakin' V-Piano (and is dissatisfied with the sound, no less!) is the perfect person for this mission.

Godspeed Lawrence, I hope you brought some good headphones with you behind enemy lines.


Raises hand. I'm with you dewster, really looking foward to Lawrence's comments on the CP-1. As for the action, I'm never going to play a real Steinway, Rhodes, Hammond, Wurly etc and whatever I decide to buy is going to be the only thing I'm playing so if the action feels good to me graded or not graded won't make a bit of difference. Of course I'm just a bare beginner using a Casio PX-800 at home (graded action) so my needs are much less detailed than those of you gigging. Can't wait to try em out, right now the CP-5 seems to be the leading Yamaha product for me with price/features considered.
Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
I'll post my impressions later this evening.

Am I the only one here biting their fingernails and refreshing the page every two minutes?

Someone who beta tests PC pianos & piano samples, and who owns a freakin' V-Piano (and is dissatisfied with the sound, no less!) is the perfect person for this mission.

Godspeed Lawrence, I hope you brought some good headphones with you behind enemy lines.


Well, I'm back. My trip certainly didn't work out as planned.

First, my wife decided to go with me, since we "haven't seen each other much all week". (I could hardly refuse her, but it meant that the first time we went to the store, she sat in the car waiting - in the very cold car, so I of course was feeling the pressure to rush). I don't EVER recall her volunteering before to go with me on a trip to the music store. D'oh! (First time for everything, I guess).

It turned out that it didn't matter much, though. Talk about heck. The CP1 was nicely situated, with tiny Yamaha monitors of some sort. I turned them off, and plugged in my AKG K240 (600 ohms) headphones. Right behind me was a giant acoustic grand, and you guessed it, no sooner did I start playing than some BASTARD started banging on the grand. I did manage to scare him off using my "teacher look" BUT, then another acoustic grand started up. (I was thinking, man those acoustic grands are LOUD and really like bullies, at least given the environment and what I was trying to accomplish). Then the trombone started up, and the guitars in the background, and you get the idea. At this point I decided to rescue my sweetie waiting in the freezer, er, car. We went to an Indian restaurant, had a nice dinner, and after I realized that I could return to the music store with 15 min. 'til close. It should be quieter then, right? Well, not exactly.

When I arrived for my second visit, there was a girl pounding an acoustic grand. She might have even been pounding ON an acoustic grand, but I'm not sure there was actually a distinction! A sales dude asked what I thought of the CP1, and I explained that I had no clue, because I couldn't hear over the grand. He politely kicked her off. (Turns out she WORKED at the store, and was I guess putting in time until closing). The store was still noisy, but less so than before. Still, very very hard to do any real critical listening.

My true impressions will have to wait for another more successful (quieter environment) visit.

However, my initial impression - comparing to V-Piano, which is where I'm coming from.

1) action - graded or not graded is irrelevant. (Play it if you think it will be a factor, and then decide). Much lighter than V-Piano, in the sense that less effort produces greater effect, for example accenting. The action seemed lighter to me than V-Piano. I couldn't tell for sure, in the noisy environment, if it was quieter than V-Piano's, but I suspect it was. The CP1 action will take a bit of getting used to, having played the V-Piano's so much.

2) sound - I checked out only the four AP patches. The sound is much less processed than V-Piano's. More authentic. However, I REALLY needed it quieter to make a proper assessment. I really liked what I did manage to hear, but . . . . I need to go back when it's quiet. I'll only need a few minutes, maybe 10, to be sure. Fantastic bass on one of the S6 patches - very authentic, and using headphones, no less!

3) dynamic range - superb, freaky, greater than V-Piano's which was already superb. Better? I'm not so sure. At some point the dynamic range becomes too great, and unnatural. However, this is probably easy to deal with after getting more accustomed to the action.

4) velocity curves - the default ("normal") was fine. "Wide" was interesting, and possibly useful, but again, not much time or environmental quality to try out and assess properly.

5) build quality - excellent - feels like a real instrument

6) controls - I liked the six knobs - very intuitive (I had studied the manual ahead of time, but it is pretty straight forward. Tweaking bass/mid/high was effective. I tried tweaking the reverb, but couldn't hear any changes. (I guess I didn't read the manual well enough!)

7) screen - fine

8) I liked one of each of the two AP types better than the other. If they are the two that will be in the CP5, then that would become quite tempting.

9) the pedal unit is bad ass - solid, with the length of the pedal being "proper". (With V-Piano the pedal's feel too short, stubby, and you feel you can't get your toes properly seated on them properly. You shouldn't in any way notice the mechanics of the pedals). With the V-Piano I do, with the CP1, I don't.

There is probably more I can add, but my wife is wanting my company. (After 31 years of marriage, I've learned not to ignore her! Actually, truthfully, after 31 years of marriage we are better friend than ever. How cool is that?)

Sorry, I feel like I've let the team down, in terms of expressing my impressions, but the noisy store and limited time are to blame.

Am I interested enough to try again? Absolutely.

Lawrence



Originally Posted by Colleen_500



I believe you and I and Dewster are all very excited about these new CP pianos. I'm looking forward to hearing Lawrence's review.



Don't forget Dr Popper. He has already ordered a CP1 AND a CP5.

How cool is that?

Lawrence
Posted By: Colleen_500 Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/30/10 04:03 AM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music


Don't forget Dr Popper. He has already ordered a CP1 AND a CP5.

How cool is that?

Lawrence


I'm immediately envious of Dr. Popper. (Just kidding) Ha Ha.

I am envious of you, Lawrence, having had at least an opportunity, however brief and distressing, to get a feel for the CP-1's action.

We'll be waiting with great anticipation for your follow-up, and of course, Dr.Popper's valuable impressions as well.

It sounds encouraging, for sure.

Thank you for your review.

Colleen
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/30/10 05:52 AM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
Sorry, I feel like I've let the team down, in terms of expressing my impressions, but the noisy store and limited time are to blame.

Lawrence thank you so much! Not a let-down at all. Please do thank your wife too for putting up with all this. I'm hoping these CPs pan out for everyone wanting a decent AP patch in a DP - if they don't, well story of my DP life - but between your experiences and those of the good Dr. Popper it is very encouraging so far.

I apologize for putting you on the spot. But dude, you actually touched one!
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/30/10 06:42 AM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
Originally Posted by Colleen_500



I believe you and I and Dewster are all very excited about these new CP pianos. I'm looking forward to hearing Lawrence's review.



Don't forget Dr Popper. He has already ordered a CP1 AND a CP5.

How cool is that?

Lawrence



Yes Yamaha have been very good to me Lawrence and I can't wait to get the CP1 hopefully next week. A friend of mine got his yesterday (and this is a guy who has played for years with a major act and sold literally millions upon millions of CD's) his quote "its the best piano I've ever played ...period" I'm thinking that this is the real deal.
Originally Posted by dewster

I apologize for putting you on the spot. But dude, you actually touched one!


Dude, don't be getting me excited . . . !
Originally Posted by Dr Popper

Yes Yamaha have been very good to me


I'd already figured that, due to your VIP status, but your enthusiasm for the instrument is sincere, IMHO.

Lawrence
Posted By: madshi Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/30/10 12:24 PM
Originally Posted by pianodilemma
NW-piano wood slapped onto what appears to be a S90XS' action.

How can you make such a call without ever actually having played the action?

It seems that (see post in the other forum) Yamaha experimented with various actions (some graded, some not) and decided on the CP1/CP5 action based on the feedback they received. Whether the CP1/CP5 action is a totally new development or just an older action with NW slapped onto it, we don't know. And it doesn't really matter. The only thing that matters is how good the final result is. Personally, everything else being equal, I might have preferred a graded action. But I'd definitely like a good non-graded action *MUCH* better than an average graded action.

Originally Posted by pianodilemma
The product line should, in my opinion, look like this:

[...]

Digital Pianos:
CP50 - GH action, SCM engine with more limited selection of APs and EPs
CP5 - GH3 action, SCM and AWM2 engine

And maybe those actions, while being graded, would be worse than what the CP1/CP5 has? You know, graded or not graded is not the only thing that matters.

I'm not saying that there's no reason to mourn the absense of the graded action. But I think that action quality should only be judged after having actually played it.
Posted By: madshi Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/30/10 12:32 PM
@Melodialworks Music, thanks for your report!

Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
1) action - graded or not graded is irrelevant. (Play it if you think it will be a factor, and then decide). Much lighter than V-Piano, in the sense that less effort produces greater effect, for example accenting. The action seemed lighter to me than V-Piano. I couldn't tell for sure, in the noisy environment, if it was quieter than V-Piano's, but I suspect it was. The CP1 action will take a bit of getting used to, having played the V-Piano's so much.

You're describing the action properties here, but I'm not how much you really liked or disliked it. Could you add a few more comments about that?
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/30/10 03:27 PM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
Fantastic bass on one of the S6 patches - very authentic, and using headphones, no less!

I was really hoping you would say the S6 patches sucked, so I wouldn't miss them should the CP50 somehow magically appear on our keyboard stand smile

Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
I tried tweaking the reverb, but couldn't hear any changes.

From my limited experience with adding reverb in post-process to close-mic recordings of real pianos, the string resonance is often so strong and reverb-like that it swamps out any reverb I am adding. Unless I add a ton of reverb I can't hear it very well. So, if you really were adjusting the reverb level, this might be considered a good sign.

Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
I liked one of each of the two AP types better than the other. If they are the two that will be in the CP5, then that would become quite tempting.

An interesting experiment would be to set the EQ of the two CFIII patches (or the two S6 patches mad ) to flat and see if they then sound the same. If so, then who cares about the two preamp thing (and the CP5/50 are again perhaps viable choices).

I know it must have been hard to hear with bombs blowing up all around you and all, but could you heard any looping or strangeness in the AP decay? In that one video of the CP1, the guy holds a bass note for a long time while yacking over the top of it, and it sounded impressively long. Did the decay seem long like a real piano, or did it seem shorter (like a real DP smile )?

Also, you might want to invest in some sealed phones. I have a pair of AKG K271 that are pretty good at blocking noise, and they sound great as well (for sealed phones). I wear them for hours every day while my wife teaches her piano lessons. They help me hold onto what little sanity I have left.
OK. I returned to the store this morning for a second try. A 40 min. warp speed drive down the highway. The store opens at 10AM, so I arranged to be early, get in right at opening, and hopefully spend some quality time with the CP1 before the store got noisy. (No wife with me this time . . . . ). I went this time armed with a few pages from the manual & data list, in case I would get stumped and need to look something up.

Upon reviewing the documentation last night, I realized that for changing the reverb settings, for example, I had missed a step. First you have to hold the reverb block button down for a few seconds, a new screen pops up, and then you have access to the reverb settings. (Last night I was just pressing down Knob 6 RevSend, with apparently no success . . . . at least that I could hear).

BTW, there have been posts appearing stating that the CP1 is a electric piano with acoustic added on - using the lack of graded action to prove the point. With respect, I think that the point is being missed, regarding this position. The AP's on this instrument PLAY better than ANY other hardware digital piano that I've played (with the exception of V-Piano). They sound great. It's obvious to me that great strides have been made with the AP. (Samples + Modeling, remember!) The player/instrument connectivity is superb with the AP's. That's what I'm after - superb player/instrument connectivity AND superb sound. With sampled libraries, great sound can be found, but not with effective player/instrument connectivity. Am I happy with what Yamaha has done in this regard? Absolutely. My sampled libraries will remain in retirement.

I also again realized from reviewing the documentation that last night I had only checked out the first four patches, thinking that that covered the 2AP patches of the CF and S6 respectively. I had totally missed patch 5 Lush Piano. (I seemed to recall that Dr Popper liked this patch in particular . . . ).

So, I started at the store this morning with a factory reset, checked that stretch tuning was enabled (it was), and then straight to auditioning the first five AP patches. I spent about 40 min. before the store started to get loud. The first 30 was very good, and the first 15 or so was basically just little old me.

Impressions.

Action.
I liked it very much. I was really concentrating on the sound (since I could actually hear it this time) and comparing the AP's and the effect of tweaks. I realized two things about the action (1) much more expressive than V-Piano (and easier to be expressive) with greater timbral change - dig into the keys and you get a great response, and (b) I wasn't actually noticing the action, it was there, worked, natural, a pleasure to play - not much to say about it really. I really wonder in a blind test if you could tell if it was graded or not? I don't know, but I certainly didn't feeling like I was missing anything in the action.

AP Sound.
I found the CFIII to be bright, but I'm not actually all that accustomed to Yamaha piano sound. The tone knobs work for taming this, but I also found adjusting hammer hardness (to Soft 1 or even Soft 2) worked very well. (On the V-Piano I typically softened the hammers as well. Don't forget I doing new age piano, not rocking out!) I liked the CFIII better than the S6, which actually surprised me, with patches 1 (CF Grand) and 5 (Lush Piano) being the best. Both are versions of the CF 3Band. These patches seem to have personality with a character for each of the bass/ mid/ treble, but in a good way. All three ranges worked very well.

Reverb.
Understated. Tweaking seemed to not have a great deal of effect (no pun intended) but the store was starting to get noisy but this point. However, this is definitely not a "drowned in reverb" type of instrument, as far as the AP's are concerned. (I didn't check out any of the EP's). This is a good thing! The AP's were standing TALL on their own.

Bottom line?
The V-Piano will be going. I will be replacing it with either the CP1 or the CP5. I need to determine if I can get an identical AP sound on the CP5 (identical to the CP1) by using the same settings. Dr Popper had mentioned when he tried the CP1 and CP5 that "The CP1 sounded better and more rounded in both CFIII patches than the CP5 did in its one CFIII patch . . . " This was based on only a few minutes with each board. I wonder if the settings were the same? If not, could the CFIII's be made to sound the same on both boards? If so, then I would opt for the CP5 to (a) spend fewer scrumbeanies, and (b) have the on-board strings, pads etc. which would be useful. However, if the CP5 AP cannot be made to sound identical to the CP1, then I would opt for the CP1.

In either case, this is going to be a great instrument to own and play and explore and compose and record with! I feel like I will be entering an exclusive club - the "nitpicky but satisfied with a DP club"! Hint to "dewster", new members welcomed!
One thing I forgot. I liked the vinyl look / feel on the top of the keyboard deck. I suspect it will not show finger prints / smudges like the (high) gloss finishes do, and also be less prone to showing dust - although I'm a good boy and keep my keyboard covered with a dust cover, when not in use.
D'oh! I just checked the SCM Block Diagram for the A. Piano Type

CP1: A. Piano Type to Pre Amp to Modulation Effect to Power Amp/Compressor to Speaker Simulator
CP5: A. Piano Type to Modulation Effect to Power Amp/Compressor

So, I guess this means that the CP5 AP cannot be made to sound the same (i.e. as good as) the CP1.

Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/30/10 05:30 PM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
I liked the CFIII better than the S6

Music to my (CP50 wannabe) ears!

Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
My sampled libraries will remain in retirement.

Wow!

Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
The V-Piano will be going. I will be replacing it with either the CP1 or the CP5

Now you're the one getting me excited!

I take it there is absolutely no hint of looping in the decay of individual notes? Could you state that for the record?
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/30/10 05:35 PM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
CP1: A. Piano Type to Pre Amp to Modulation Effect to Power Amp/Compressor to Speaker Simulator
CP5: A. Piano Type to Modulation Effect to Power Amp/Compressor

If there is no "Pre Amp" stage in the CP5, that means you probably have to use the global tone controls, which doesn't strike me as all that crippling.

And what kind of modulation effect could you possibly want in an AP signal chain? Or speaker simulator for that matter? That stuff is usually used on EPs.

I'm not giving up quite yet.
Posted By: EssBrace Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/30/10 05:49 PM
This went up about an hour ago...

http://www.youtube.com/user/MusikSchmidt#p/u/0/p1ZXowO-3s0

Steve
Posted By: EssBrace Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/30/10 06:00 PM
Ref the link above...have just watched it. It's a shame that their usual guy hasn't done the demo because he's a much better player and tends to demonstrate the other sounds too.

There are a couple of moments when this particular guy leaves his foot on the sustain pedal and it is ringing away very nicely. Difficult to tell Dewster but I don't think I heard looping...could be promising for you!

Steve
Posted By: pianodilemma Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/30/10 06:37 PM
Originally Posted by Colleen_500
Originally Posted by pianodilemma


What is quite fascinating to me, however, is (a) that you joined simply to comment to me, (b) your continued avoidance of discussion of a proposed set of features which might have made more sense, (c) your certainty that Yamaha people are reading this forum, and (d) your continued insistence on referring the P series. Is there a Myspace or Facebook page for your band? I would really like to see the type of music you play so I could get a better perspective of possibly understanding why you might not value graded actions (e.g. lots of synth parts where a straight-up synth action might be better, soundscaping, etc.).


Let me see; I'll try and address your fascinations.


They're only questions. Your ascription of the quality of fascination is incorrect.

Quote
(a)I actually registered two days ago, and my response to your post was merely because I wondered why you criticized Yamaha's approach to the CP series.


Your first post was about why you thought I was or wasn't qualified, which is an ad hominem. You discussed very little about the content in question, and you've tried very hard to distract from the issues I brought up.

Quote
(b) I'm simply not interested.


But other people are interested, including me. That's why I'll continue discussing it whether or not you want to.

Quote
(c)I know what I know, and I'm simply not at liberty to reveal names.


I don't really care who specifically, but it's more that you know this is occurring that is interesting. And given that you know for certain that specific unnamed Yamaha people are here, your very recent registration and your extremely strong and unyielding position represented by your comments, I'm led to believe that you have some other motive. Naturally I can't confirm that, but circumstantially it appears odd.

Quote
(d) The "P" series seemed to be more what you'd be looking for; the CP's ungraded action is not to your liking.


I'm not looking for a home-grade instrument. I'm looking to be able to have more fine-grained MIDI control, additional good sounds, better and more durable actions, and overall durability.

Quote
The "band" is a church group, and no, we're not on Facebook. I played in a band in high school as well.


Assuming this is true, it is odd that you would take such a strong position given your limited exposure.

Quote
I don't feel graded actions have no value; I simply think Yamaha's idea for an ungraded actioned stage piano is better than if it was graded. I do feel that graded isn't necessary for my playing, and I do feel it was only implemented on acoustic pianos because of the inherent nature of the instrument.


I think your position has been made patently clear numerous times. Would you at least acknowledge the fact that there are individuals who do value a graded action (and, for that matter, the ever-controversial "escapement") in a stage piano?

Quote
Wouldn't you rather if all keyboards had an even action? If they could make an acoustic piano with ungraded keys, would you still prefer graded?


What I wish for and what is real are two different things. So long as real instruments cannot be made with an even action, they will be graded. For so long as they are graded, I and many others will wanted a graded action in a portable format. There are video games that simulate reality by attempting to recreate flaws such as fine wrinkles in skin. To not recreate them is to deny the reality, even though nobody wants their skin to wrinkle. Doing any less means it's less authentic and, therefore, less accessible to certain segments of the population.

Quote
The only time I would prefer a synth type action would be for organ playing, but I already have an A-100 with a 122 Leslie cabinet at the church.


All the more reason why someone who is an organ player (playing real pipe organs) would want that specific action to practice on. Hence why a balanced action is good for EPs, a graded action for APs, and a sprung organ action for organs. This is why the CP1 and CP5 appear fine from an EP perspective, but not an AP perspective. This is why I pointed out that there is a gap here, particularly given the previous CP300.

Quote
Do you play in a band?

Colleen


Not currently. Years ago I did some session work on bass for a local group putting some demos together, but it never went anywhere. I was also the keyboard and bass player in my stage band in middle school. I do work with live artists directly and indirectly in defining my products, but no live band right now. My hope is to do some jazz and rock work eventually with the right group of people, either on bass or piano.
Posted By: Colleen_500 Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/30/10 06:59 PM
Lawrence,

Thank you so much for your very informative review.

I'm even more excited about the CP series now that you've basically confirmed the acoustic pianos are great.

It's also good to know the ungraded action felt wonderful.

Now, we must wait on Doctor Popper for his point of view.

Thanks again,

Colleen
Posted By: Colleen_500 Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/30/10 07:22 PM
Originally Posted by pianodilemma



I don't really care who specifically, but it's more that you know this is occurring that is interesting. And given that you know for certain that specific unnamed Yamaha people are here, your very recent registration and your extremely strong and unyielding position represented by your comments, I'm led to believe that you have some other motive. Naturally I can't confirm that, but circumstantially it appears odd.



First of all, I do not care for your confrontational and suspicious attitude.

I find you a very unpleasant and tiring individual, and you can consider this my last reply to you.

Peace,

Colleen
Originally Posted by Colleen_500

Now, we must wait on Doctor Popper for his point of view.


He has posted his views throughout this 56 page thread, and probably others as well. Search the forum for dr popper and you'll find plenty of reading!
Posted By: Colleen_500 Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/30/10 07:41 PM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
Originally Posted by Colleen_500

Now, we must wait on Doctor Popper for his point of view.


He has posted his views throughout this 56 page thread, and probably others as well. Search the forum for dr popper and you'll find plenty of reading!


Thank you Lawrence, I'll have a look.

You guys are so cool.

Colleen

Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/30/10 08:05 PM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music

In either case, this is going to be a great instrument to own and play and explore and compose and record with! I feel like I will be entering an exclusive club - the "nitpicky but satisfied with a DP club"! Hint to "dewster", new members welcomed!


Excellent report, and very well covered, Lawrence. I'm just in the not so exclusive-the "picky club", but I'm gettin' my hopes up that I'll have a replacement for my CP-300.

Hopefully the CP-5 will have an AP sound that compares favorably with the the CP-1's...I need those extra sounds, especially strings and organ, so I'll only need one instrument for any gigs...the idea of the non-graded action is very appealing to me.

Thanks for sharing your perceptions and views.

Snazzy

Posted By: daviel Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/30/10 08:08 PM
Thank you Lawrence.
Posted By: Colleen_500 Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/30/10 08:53 PM
Originally Posted by EssBrace
This went up about an hour ago...

http://www.youtube.com/user/MusikSchmidt#p/u/0/p1ZXowO-3s0

Steve


This is impressive Steve. It's not like I'm going to use it all the time, but the CP-80 patch was fabulous; the bottom notes were replicated perfectly.

It is a shame he didn't showcase the Rhodes and FM piano.

The pedal unit looks okay, but I'd like to see 3 pedal designed with a rubber extension plate that your heel can rest on; something like the Roland DP-10.
I can't recall, but does the Roland V-Piano's pedals have a plate to rest your heel?

Thank you for the link.

Colleen


Originally Posted by Colleen_500
[quote=EssBrace]
I can't recall, but does the Roland V-Piano's pedals have a plate to rest your heel?


Yes it does.
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music

In either case, this is going to be a great instrument to own and play and explore and compose and record with! I feel like I will be entering an exclusive club - the "nitpicky but satisfied with a DP club"! Hint to "dewster", new members welcomed!


Excellent report, and very well covered, Lawrence. I'm just in the not so exclusive-the "picky club" . . .


Snazzy -

No, not "picky club". The "nitpicky" (also spelled "nit picky"). There's a BIG difference!
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/30/10 09:46 PM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music


No, not "picky club". The "nitpicky" (also spelled "nit picky"). There's a BIG difference!


You're right...my bad. For my penance I will play an upright piano, perhaps a U3, for 15 minutes. wink

Lawrence, the pedal unit, for the V-Piano, that my friend Colleen was talking about...does it have three separate plugs...like, one for each pedal?

I'm thinking it would be a mite handy if it would work in the CP-1.

I'm already using Roland DP's (I think they're DP-10's) on my CP-300 and P-85...those rubber foot plates are slicker than frog hair.

Snazzy

BTW, your website is really nice. Beautiful music. You are very talented, my friend.


Originally Posted by snazzyplayer


Lawrence, the pedal unit, for the V-Piano, that my friend Colleen was talking about...does it have three separate plugs...like, one for each pedal?

I'm thinking it would be a mite handy if it would work in the CP-1.



No. It's one plug. I looks like a MIDI plug, but it is smaller and with more pins. The CP1 comes comes with its own triple plug unit. Did you mean CP5?

The rubber extension for the heel to rest on is nice. I'm on laminate flooring and it's slip and slide if steps are not taken.

Quote

BTW, your website is really nice. Beautiful music. You are very talented, my friend.



Thanks! Reminds me that I've got to resurrect the Melodialworks Music header graphic on the website. So much to do, so little time.

Lawrence
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/30/10 10:37 PM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music


No. It's one plug. I looks like a MIDI plug, but it is smaller and with more pins. The CP1 comes comes with its own triple plug unit. Did you mean CP5?

The rubber extension for the heel to rest on is nice. I'm on laminate flooring and it's slip and slide if steps are not taken.

Quote

BTW, your website is really nice. Beautiful music. You are very talented, my friend.



Thanks! Reminds me that I've got to resurrect the Melodialworks Music header graphic on the website. So much to do, so little time - BUT, I'm a year from retirement (from teaching) so I'll be less able to use that excuse. Although all these retired people I know keep saying how busy they are! Crazy.

Lawrence


Does the CP-5 use the same pedal unit? It wouldn't be too hard to attach some sort of rubber plate to the bottom...if not, I can always use my DP-10's.

I see you're in Hamilton Ontario, Canada...I have passed through there several times, on road gigs, a long time ago. I also took a few trips to a place called Cape Breton Island, where I have a good buddy, a Yamaha clinician/demonstrator who finds vintage synths for me...bought my Yamaha GS-1 and Korg PS-3200 from him as well as a few other soon to be vintage/collectible synths.

What synthesizer(s) did you use in recording?

I really appreciate your synthesizer work...very creative and just the right amount of restraint in the arrangements.

Snazzy

Originally Posted by snazzyplayer


Does the CP-5 use the same pedal unit? It wouldn't be too hard to attach some sort of rubber plate to the bottom...if not, I can always use my DP-10's.


No, just the single type. From the Comparison Chart:

Connectors - Foot Switch
CP1: Sustain, Sostenuto, Soft, Assignable
CP5: Sustain, Assignable

I'll send you a private message about my music.


Posted By: KrAYZEE Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/30/10 10:49 PM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
OK. I returned to the store this morning for a second try.

snip

Action.
I liked it very much. I was really concentrating on the sound (since I could actually hear it this time) and comparing the AP's and the effect of tweaks. I realized two things about the action (1) much more expressive than V-Piano (and easier to be expressive) with greater timbral change - dig into the keys and you get a great response, and (b) I wasn't actually noticing the action, it was there, worked, natural, a pleasure to play - not much to say about it really. I really wonder in a blind test if you could tell if it was graded or not? I don't know, but I certainly didn't feeling like I was missing anything in the action.

snip


This validates my beginner's impressions. Maybe I am wise beyond my 6 months of lessons.

Kurt
Posted By: Kawai James Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/30/10 11:13 PM
Lawrence, many thanks for posting your second review, and Steve, thanks for the MusikSchmidt clip.

Wow, it looks beautiful - I just love that big, wide glowing display. Sounds pretty good too! wink

Now I'm really eager to play the CP1 for myself?
Perhaps a trip to the capital is in order? wink

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/30/10 11:23 PM
Originally Posted by dewster
Did the decay seem long like a real piano, or did it seem shorter (like a real DP smile )?


Yeah he does and it is that long ...its real alright. I'm thinking ...you want a CP1 Dewster ...beg borrow steal ...its totally your thing.
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer

I see you're in Hamilton Ontario, Canada...I have passed through there several times, on road gigs, a long time ago. I also took a few trips to a place called Cape Breton Island, where I have a good buddy, a Yamaha clinician/demonstrator who finds vintage synths for me...bought my Yamaha GS-1 and Korg PS-3200 from him as well as a few other soon to be vintage/collectible synths.

What synthesizer(s) did you use in recording?



Snazzy -

OK. I've decided that this is actually some what on topic . . .

I don't actually live in Hamilton, but about 30 min. from there. I was born and raised in big bad Toronto, which you no doubt would be familiar with.

My first CD project was a mix of hardware, samples and soft synths. One track used the Kurzweil K2500X optional piano block. The other piano sounds were samples. Two few layers, and BAD connectivity with the keyboard, resulting in a lot of post recording editing.

With V-Piano and now the CP1, I can finally realize the dream of recording WITHOUT having to do a ton of editing. It's pretty much what you play is what you get with these instruments. True, there might be the odd note where you may need to adjust the velocity, but it would be the (rare) exception, not the rule, as it was in the "old days".

My second CD was strictly soft synths, including heavy use of Atmosphere. (In fact in became a bit of a joke with the engineer - "Larry, you can't seem to do a track without using that blanky blank Atmosphere"!).

I'm now working on a solo piano project, and plan to use the CP1 (or CP5) as the instrument. I can't tell you how exciting it will be for me to realize this project. I've suffered the disappointment of many, many sample sets . . .

I do feel that I have something significant to contribute to the new age piano community. I've just been waiting for the appropriate instrument to use . . .

Lawrence
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/31/10 01:40 AM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music



I'm now working on a solo piano project, and plan to use the CP1 (or CP5) as the instrument. I can't tell you how exciting it will be for me to realize this project. I've suffered the disappointment of many, many sample sets . . .

I do feel that I have something significant to contribute to the new age piano community. I've just been waiting for the appropriate instrument to use . . .

Lawrence


Yes, I have been to good old T.O. several times.

My friend in Cape Breton, Ian, is into new age stuff as well..hence the synths...but this time he's limiting himself to one keyboard, a PSR-S910, as he says it forces you to push the limits.

He's really talented, as are you....I think your contributions are already significant, Lawrence...I wish I had half of your imagination and talent..I'm just an old piano plunker who managed to play with the right people and actually made a good living with my musical abilities...I feel lucky and grateful for that alone...you got "the touch", as they say.

These new pianos are going to give a lot of people a boost...maybe we'll even get an album out of friend Dewster. wink

Snazzy

Originally Posted by snazzyplayer


....I think your contributions are already significant, Lawrence...I wish I had half of your imagination and talent..



Thanks, Snazzy. That really means a lot to me. Seriously.

I totally get what you say about your Cape Breton friend limiting himself to one keyboard. It does in fact create a disciplined framework for the creative process. For me a SUCCESSFUL solo piano project will be way harder to pull off than a synth project, or even a solo based project (piano plus other instruments).

You're really exposed, so to speak, it's just you and your instrument and that's it. I guess this is true of doing a solo album with any instrument.

An album from "friend Dewster" would be AWESOME. Imagine the passion!

Lawrence
Posted By: Kawai James Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/31/10 08:01 AM
Does dewster play?

I thought all this CP discussion was largely for his wife's benefit? wink

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: EssBrace Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/31/10 09:27 AM
No album because all his creative energy has been spent devising novel and imaginative, and quite often funny, put-downs over the last few years. He's probably the author of those epic hilarious complaint letters - sent to large, faceless and uncaring corporations - that occasionally surface. Life on the forum would be barren and unfulfilling without his restless spirit. The scary thing is what will happen if one of these Yamahas (or any other keyboard) fully addresses his concerns. He will be like a rudderless ship drifting on an ocean of contentment for the rest of his days.

All the above written with tongue firmly in cheek of course!

Steve
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/31/10 10:36 AM
Don't worry he can always start on the Taurus III ... is it a real Moog...?

LOL gotta love the Dewster ....


Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/31/10 11:06 AM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Don't worry he can always start on the Taurus III ... is it a real Moog...?






After he interprets it's horoscope. wink


Snazzy
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/31/10 05:17 PM
Originally Posted by KAWAI James
Does dewster play?

Some, though I play acoustic guitar much better, and dabbled with electric bass for a few years. I really wish I'd learned percussion first.

Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Don't worry he can always start on the Taurus III

Does anyone - outside of Geddy Lee maybe - actually play that thing? It looks kinda cool, but you'd have to be a wizardly virtuosic wunderkind to use it on stage and not look like something of a dork.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/31/10 05:37 PM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
...with patches 1 (CF Grand) and 5 (Lush Piano) being the best.


NO. | NAME | P. TYPE | MODULATION | POWER AMP | REVERB
001 | CF Grand | CF 3Band | D Chorus | VCM Compressor 376 | Rich Hall
005 | Lush Piano | CF 3Band | Small Phaser | Clean Amp | Rich Hall


Maybe someone can do a MIDI dump, or manually walk through the menus for the piano settings and the settings for each of the effects in the chain to see what the parameters to these patches are set to by default. It's hard for me to believe the chorus or phaser are doing anything (e.g. placeholder / pass-thru), and the clean amp appears to be just a volume control (the only parameter for it in the CP1 MIDI implementation).

If the LED on the button in the effects chain is off, then the effect is bypassed, correct? In the latest German video (thanks Steve!) he starts off playing patch 1, and the modulation and power amp LEDs are clearly off.

[edit]I guess I'm still living in hope the CP50 basic CFIII patch can sound as good across all three CPs.
Posted By: pianodilemma Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/31/10 11:20 PM
Originally Posted by Colleen_500
Originally Posted by pianodilemma



I don't really care who specifically, but it's more that you know this is occurring that is interesting. And given that you know for certain that specific unnamed Yamaha people are here, your very recent registration and your extremely strong and unyielding position represented by your comments, I'm led to believe that you have some other motive. Naturally I can't confirm that, but circumstantially it appears odd.



First of all, I do not care for your confrontational and suspicious attitude.


Considering that you were the one who first confronted me about my credentials, the pure irony of this comment is bizarre. If you came to confront my credentials, expect no less a treatment in return.

Quote
I find you a very unpleasant and tiring individual, and you can consider this my last reply to you.

Peace,

Colleen


What you find me to be is irrelevant to the discussion of the subject matter, but entirely initiated by you.
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/31/10 11:24 PM
Originally Posted by dewster
It looks kinda cool, but you'd have to be a wizardly virtuosic wunderkind to use it on stage and not look like something of a dork.


Nah it just sits underneath with all your other pedals I've been guilty of using one and I'm seriously considering getting the new one. Nothing is a fat as a Taurus ... its the fattest bass around. Its a credit to the Taurus that even with all the VST's around and all the other boards when James Schaffer wanted a fat swirly bass line for Sweet Dreams by Beyonce he went straight for the good old analog Taurus.

Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 01/31/10 11:56 PM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
I've been guilty of using one and I'm seriously considering getting the new one.

Good Dr. I apologize blush. The second I hit "Submit" I figured that bullet might have someone's name on it that I had no intention for it to hit.

I keep wanting to make some bass keys, obtain a decent pipe organ soft synth, and persuade my wife to play through the organ works of Bach.

And if Yamaha is currently eavesdropping, I would like a small (1/3 to 1/2 rack) box that has three MIDI in ports (two for keys, one for bass keys) with pipe & reed organ modeling and/or sampling. I'd pay $1000 if it was just OK, $1500 if it kicked ass (and so would a lot of churches).
Posted By: Colleen_500 Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/01/10 12:22 AM
Originally Posted by pianodilemma


Quote
I find you a very unpleasant and tiring individual, and you can consider this my last reply to you.

Peace,

Colleen


What you find me to be is irrelevant to the discussion of the subject matter, but entirely initiated by you.


My my my, you are a persistent little fellow, aren't you?

I had already made it quite clear to you, in an earlier reply, that I was not interested in a discussion of a proposed set of features which might have made more sense.

I also said I wouldn't reply, but in your case, and because you are so special, I will bend the rules; but just this once.

Let's just end this here, with an apology by me, so you can finally let this go, and you can devote yourself to some other mission, and I can go about my enjoyment of this forum in peace.

Ready?

I am extremely sorry that you are a very unpleasant and tiring individual.

Regards,

Colleen



Originally Posted by Colleen_500


I am extremely sorry that you are a very unpleasant and tiring individual.



Heh. Heh. I'm really liking this Colleen person!

Lawrence
Posted By: daviel Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/01/10 02:48 AM
Hi Colleen. Nice way to handle the situation. Might I recommend the 'ignore' feature?
Posted By: pianodilemma Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/01/10 02:56 AM
Originally Posted by Colleen_500
Originally Posted by pianodilemma


Quote
I find you a very unpleasant and tiring individual, and you can consider this my last reply to you.

Peace,

Colleen


What you find me to be is irrelevant to the discussion of the subject matter, but entirely initiated by you.


My my my, you are a persistent little fellow, aren't you?

I had already made it quite clear to you, in an earlier reply, that I was not interested in a discussion of a proposed set of features which might have made more sense.

I also said I wouldn't reply, but in your case, and because you are so special, I will bend the rules; but just this once.

Let's just end this here, with an apology by me, so you can finally let this go, and you can devote yourself to some other mission, and I can go about my enjoyment of this forum in peace.

Ready?

I am extremely sorry that you are a very unpleasant and tiring individual.

Regards,

Colleen





So you essentially lied about that post being your last reply to me.

I believe this, and the fact that you again decided to attack me rather than speak about facts, speaks volumes regarding your credibility and your agenda here.

Your insult veiled as an apology is meaningless given that the facts that remain unaffected. Yamaha simply doesn't have a true replacement for the CP300 at this time for those desiring a high-end sound generation engine and a high-end graded weighted action. They have something different that is not desirable to a segment of the market, and their top-line model appears to omit the functionality of a lower-end model which would be quite easy to implement. This is not a proposal, but a reality that you appear to be overly emotionally vested in, and one you appear not to be able to accept. Focus on facts will allow everyone to move on, including you, without insults or emotion.
Originally Posted by daviel
Might I recommend the 'ignore' feature?


There's an "ignore feature"? Where? (I've actually looked).

Thanks.
Posted By: daviel Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/01/10 03:03 AM
Click on the poster's name in the upper left corner, then click 'view profile'; right below the 4 line simple intro about mid-left click on "ignore this user."
Sometimes it makes a forum visit more tolerable!
Posted By: Colleen_500 Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/01/10 03:04 AM
Originally Posted by daviel
Hi Colleen. Nice way to handle the situation. Might I recommend the 'ignore' feature?


Hi Daviel,

I'm not well schooled in defending myself on forums, so it's a "go by the gut" approach I've used, but dealing with two small children on a daily basis does have it's advantages.

What is this "ignore" feature?

Colleen

Originally Posted by daviel
Click on the poster's name in the upper left corner, then click 'view profile'; right below the 4 line simple intro about mid-left click on "ignore this user."


Thanks. Hidden in plain sight, apparently! This will be a useful feature.
Posted By: daviel Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/01/10 03:07 AM
I get enough grief in the real world to mess with it on a discussion forum.
Posted By: Colleen_500 Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/01/10 03:13 AM
Originally Posted by daviel
Click on the poster's name in the upper left corner, then click 'view profile'; right below the 4 line simple intro about mid-left click on "ignore this user."
Sometimes it makes a forum visit more tolerable!


Thank you very much, Daviel; I shall use it right away.

This person's aggressive attitude is rather unsettling; I would hope they seek professional help.

Colleen
So, if I understand this feature correctly, it would prevent me from seeing anyone's posts that I had blocked, but I would still see replies to their posts? Or posts and replies to their posts would all be blocked?
Posted By: daviel Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/01/10 03:26 AM
Yes, you can see everything but their post's content - and you can 'toggle' the ignored post if you want to read it. It's funny, I deal with conflict situations for a living and it strikes me that picking fights on the internet is just like arguments on the phone. Since it takes two to argue, one can always hang up. That's why I don't argue over the phone, and I never argue with someone I want to convince of my point of view on an issue, or ask for something. I deal with enough people who want to do that so I am used to hanging up on them!
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/01/10 03:29 AM
Originally Posted by Colleen_500
Originally Posted by daviel
Click on the poster's name in the upper left corner, then click 'view profile'; right below the 4 line simple intro about mid-left click on "ignore this user."
Sometimes it makes a forum visit more tolerable!


Thank you very much, Daviel; I shall use it right away.

This person's aggressive attitude is rather unsettling; I would hope they seek professional help.

Colleen


Wise move, Colleen...I've got one person on "ignore", and now it looks like I will have two.

It's a shame these people spoil an otherwise very interesting, and friendly forum.
Yep. Two for sure.
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/01/10 03:47 AM





Originally Posted by pianodilemma
Focus on facts will allow everyone to move on, including you, without insults or emotion.


Ok sure .... just the facts then.

FACT : Not many people here seem like you much or give a toss what you think about anything because you come across as a aggressive argumentative person. The fact that well regarded people here are already discussing amongst each other how they might ignore your posts after you have only made 23 of them might tell you something. But somehow I doubt you will heed that message.










Posted By: pianodilemma Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/01/10 03:54 AM
Originally Posted by Colleen_500
Originally Posted by daviel
Click on the poster's name in the upper left corner, then click 'view profile'; right below the 4 line simple intro about mid-left click on "ignore this user."
Sometimes it makes a forum visit more tolerable!


Thank you very much, Daviel; I shall use it right away.

This person's aggressive attitude is rather unsettling; I would hope they seek professional help.

Colleen


Your hyperbole is, again, a failed attempt to discredit my point, utterly baseless, and again something that brings into question your credibility and agenda.
Posted By: Kawai James Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/01/10 03:54 AM
pianodilemma, I agree that the new CP models are not a true replacement for the CP300. However the market has moved on considerably since this instrument was first released.

Perhaps Yamaha believe that the market no longer requires a grade-weighted keyboard action and built-in speakers in a stage piano instrument?

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/01/10 04:09 AM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper

FACT : Not many people here seem like you much or give a toss what you think about anything because you come across as a aggressive argumentative person. The fact that well regarded people here are already discussing amongst each other how they might ignore your posts after you have only made 23 of them might tell you something. But somehow I doubt you will heed that message.


This person is very aggressive and argumentative.

Another coward hiding behind the skirts of the Internet.

On a more important note, when are you you getting the CP-5, Doc, and how long before the CP-1 is under your anxious fingers?

I'm real curious about this NW ungraded action...I think I'm going to like it. My Roland HP-1700 is ungraded, and it is a lovely piano to play...I mostly midi my arranger keyboard to it, as the piano sound isn't as authentic as I'd like, but it is pleasant enough.

Snazzy

Posted By: pianodilemma Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/01/10 04:11 AM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper


Originally Posted by pianodilemma
Focus on facts will allow everyone to move on, including you, without insults or emotion.


Ok sure .... just the facts then.

FACT : Not many people here seem like you much or give a toss what you think about anything because you come across as a aggressive argumentative person. The fact that well regarded people here are already discussing amongst each other how they might ignore your posts after you have only made 23 of them might tell you something. But somehow I doubt you will heed that message.




I understand completely where you're coming from. But I only ask you this: did I start this?

snazzyplayer has repeatedly made insulting and ridiculous comments.
Colleen insulted me repeatedly.
Others discuss me in third person but direct comments at me.

If these are the well regarded people, then apparently the derogatory comments made on some of the other forums regarding this forum may be truer that I would have thought. Others have shown positive interest in my comments. Do not mistake my tenacity for arriving at the truth for purposeless argumentation. I will defend my points, and I've been quite conciliatory in my views (specifically that maybe the new CP series pianos is focused on an EP feel, which is totally fine but simply has been unclear from the reviews, NAMM demonstrations and literature).

A couple of individuals seems to have answered some of my valid questions (pedals, weighted actions), for which I'm appreciative. I'm here to try to explore a decision and to give my feedback on something that appears to be lacking. My first post wasn't to argue someone's credentials, and it wasn't to insult someone or to tell them they should seek professional help.

If you're comfortable with the way that some of the other people have conducted themselves here by using insults and antagonizing comments of their own, regardless of how mine may or may not be viewed, then I believe some introspection is in order.

Now that that's out of the way, I believe the thread should get back on topic of discussing the new Yamaha CPs and related competitors. After all, this is why we're all here.
Posted By: pianodilemma Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/01/10 04:22 AM
Originally Posted by KAWAI James
pianodilemma, I agree that the new CP models are not a true replacement for the CP300. However the market has moved on considerably since this instrument was first released.

Perhaps Yamaha believe that the market no longer requires a grade-weighted keyboard action and built-in speakers in a stage piano instrument?

Cheers,
James
x


You're right, James. Particularly with regards to speakers, they're useless to mic (DI is preferable anyway for an electronic instrument of this type) and add unnecessary weight to an instrument that's supposed to be hauled around. The EP sounds are actually not too bad, though nothing will beat an authentic B3 or a Leslie speaker. Not the point of a portable electronic instrument given economic and engineering constraints. It sure looks like Yamaha took a different direction with these, and it's just simply good to know. Disappointing from a personal perspective, but it is what it is. And we still haven't seen the CP50 which actually comes closer to fitting the bill for me. I just need to get my hands on it.

Of course, this leaves an opportunity for some of the others to move forward on some other feature sets. I would love nothing better than to see the MP8 (not the MP8-II) action or better in another Kawai stage piano. I'm not sure what you can or can't say regarding the timing of future Kawai's given what's publicly available. I like the Roland RD700GX, but I don't love it. I guess it might take some getting used to. I'm just worried about reading some of the stories of keywear and some replaced keybeds given the short warranty period. There are 20 year old keyboards out there that still play like a charm without any maintenance (and I'm sure not much abuse either), and that's what I hope to get out of whatever I buy.
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/01/10 04:26 AM
Originally Posted by KAWAI James

Perhaps Yamaha believe that the market no longer requires a grade-weighted keyboard action and built-in speakers in a stage piano instrument?

Cheers,
James
x


Could be, James. Nord seems to be moving in that direction as well. Could be a trend, maybe not.

Perhaps there is a possibility the CP-300 will be updated or replaced by a new but similar instrument...one bearing the new piano technology in the CP-1/CP-5, but with speakers and graded action?

Personally, I can't see the ungraded action winding up in a home piano.

Snazzy


Posted By: Kawai James Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/01/10 04:44 AM
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
Could be, James. Nord seems to be moving in that direction as well.


I do not believe Clavia (manufacturers of Nord instruments) have every featured built-in speakers, however I may be wrong. As for action, is the Nord Piano keyboard grade-weighted?

It seems a little strange to me that a manufacturer would market an instrument as an acoustic piano replacement/alternative, include a three-pedal unit, yet not use grade-weighted keys. However, this is of course true of the CP1, so we're essentially back to where we started. wink

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/01/10 04:58 AM
Originally Posted by KAWAI James



I do not believe Clavia (manufacturers of Nord instruments) have every featured built-in speakers, however I may be wrong. As for action, is the Nord Piano keyboard grade-weighted?



James,

It is my understanding, the CP-300 was a very good seller, so that's why I'm speculating it may be replaced next year.

The CP-300 is apparently being kept on for now.

The new Nord Piano 88 doesn't list the keyboard as graded, nor does the Stage EX. I'm not all that familiar with Nord, except for the C1/C2 organ.


I really think there will be another CP-300 type instrument (with speakers), but, again, it's only a semi-educated guess.

Snazzy



Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/01/10 05:07 AM
Originally Posted by pianodilemma


Now that that's out of the way......


As I said I doubted you would get it ...and as usual about most things I'm right.

You want to discuss the CP1 or CP5 ?? sure tell what you think when you have PLAYED both of them. Everything you say is simply speculation until you play them. Until you have played the boards your not really qualified to comment of the "feel". A couple of us here have played these boards and think the feel of them is fabulous.. graded or ungraded... in fact I didn't believe it wasn't graded such was the natural feel of these boards.

Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/01/10 05:12 AM
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer


It is my understanding, the CP-300 was a very good seller, so that's why I'm speculating it may be replaced next year.

The CP-300 is apparently being kept on for now.

The new Nord Piano 88 doesn't list the keyboard as graded, nor does the Stage EX. I'm not all that familiar with Nord, except for the C1/C2 organ.



Yeah the CP300 will continue until a replacement is released or stocks run dry.

The Nords are great boards ...good feel but not graded from what I recall. They don't like me as much as I like them so I've never owned one wink
Posted By: pianodilemma Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/01/10 06:54 AM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Originally Posted by pianodilemma


Now that that's out of the way......


As I said I doubted you would get it ...and as usual about most things I'm right.


I know I'm right about most things too including this, but unfortunately we have to agree to disagree. As you can see by my subsequent posts, I've really tried to move on. I'd suggest doing the same.

Quote
You want to discuss the CP1 or CP5 ?? sure tell what you think when you have PLAYED both of them. Everything you say is simply speculation until you play them. Until you have played the boards your not really qualified to comment of the "feel". A couple of us here have played these boards and think the feel of them is fabulous.. graded or ungraded... in fact I didn't believe it wasn't graded such was the natural feel of these boards.



I've played several ungraded boards. They feel fine to play, but they don't feel like a real acoustic to me and in particular in the bass. Of course I will reserve final judgment, but I really can't see myself getting one of these. By the admission of others, What I really don't understand is why there's wood there. Seems like effort could've been spent somewhere else. In fact, the one picture I saw didn't even look like wood grain but something approaching particle board. Again, purely aesthetic, but it is what it is. To Yamaha's credit, it's not like the RD700GX which is clearly some synthetic wood-colored material.

I also want to say that I really think Yamaha has done a very good job on the sounds based on the demos I've heard. I wish they would've put more uprights in there and the other sounds of the CP5/50 in the CP1, but it is what it is.

So, I will again say that I will reserve final judgment, but an action is either graded or not. An acoustic piano has a graded action by virtue of its construction. The action on the CP1 and CP5 may feel fantastic, but my fundamental question goes to its authenticity to an acoustic instrument. It either is authentic to an acoustic, or it isn't authentic to an acoustic, no matter how good it feels on its own. If it's not graded, it won't feel authentic. Authenticity is what I and others are looking for. If I could get an original MP8 action, I'd get it tomorrow. Nobody appears willing to part with those boards, however, and their sound leaves something to be desired. I'm still quite curious about the CP50 and what it feels like. According to Yamaha's website, it's simply the GH. I suppose I'll know for certain by the end of March or April sometime.
Posted By: EssBrace Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/01/10 08:45 AM
So if authenticity is what you're after...how about a DP that drifts out of tune the moment the tuner puts his car in reverse? How about one without a volume control, headphone jack, effects etc etc.

The problem with a truly faithful replication of an acoustic is that it doesn't allow for the good bits and the bad bits to be identified and selected (or rejected), and there are some elements of a real piano that most of us would certainly reject...we all agree there are issues with acoustics that on a personal basis we don't want replicated otherwise this forum would probably not exist. In my case I can't physically accommodate a grand piano for starters. I would never choose an upright piano because I've never heard one I like. Uprights themselves are the manufacturers' way of replicating a proper piano whilst addressing the issue of size.

I have come to see these Yamahas as very promising instruments and I sincerely hope they meet the needs of some of the contributors to this forum. If you rule them out due to the lack of graded keys then that's up to you. Personally, graded keys are not on my agenda although I would accept that they are desirable to a segment of the market.

Cheers,

Steve
Posted By: Kawai James Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/01/10 08:51 AM
Originally Posted by EssBrace
Personally, graded keys are not on my agenda although I would accept that they are desirable to a segment of the market.

Amen.
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/01/10 10:22 AM
Originally Posted by EssBrace
I have come to see these Yamahas as very promising instruments and I sincerely hope they meet the needs of some of the contributors to this forum. If you rule them out due to the lack of graded keys then that's up to you. Personally, graded keys are not on my agenda although I would accept that they are desirable to a segment of the market.

Cheers,

Steve


Exactly, Steve...they are most promising. Most of the players I've discussed this with off forum proper, would be happy whether they are graded or not.

I also think the segment for which graded is desirable (or more importantly a deal-breaker on a stage piano if it isn't there), is a lot smaller than some seem to think. Nord has probably clued in on this as well.

Time will tell if Yamaha has made the right decision.

Snazzy
Posted By: daviel Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/01/10 04:59 PM
I don't think I ever notice whether the keyboards are graded or not. The Yamahas interest me because I know the company's products are excellent - I have had a dx21, dx7, P80 and now a cp33 - and I need something that sounds great - piano and rhodes - that I can get to a gig without needing a truck.
Posted By: sullivang Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/02/10 06:42 AM
Originally Posted by KAWAI James
Sounds pretty good too! wink


This is my impression so far too - just "pretty good", at least for the acoustics. The electric pianos sound excellent though. I'm wondering whether my opinion will change when I hear some really high fidelity recordings, though. (or of course when I actually try one!)

Greg.
Posted By: pianodilemma Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/02/10 07:02 AM
Originally Posted by EssBrace
So if authenticity is what you're after...how about a DP that drifts out of tune the moment the tuner puts his car in reverse? How about one without a volume control, headphone jack, effects etc etc.

The problem with a truly faithful replication of an acoustic is that it doesn't allow for the good bits and the bad bits to be identified and selected (or rejected), and there are some elements of a real piano that most of us would certainly reject...we all agree there are issues with acoustics that on a personal basis we don't want replicated otherwise this forum would probably not exist.


I'd like to offer an alternative view here. From the perspective of feel, replicating the AP feel (including the ever-controversial escapement) is part of making an action authentic, even with its "flaws". The reason is that is exactly what the interface to the real instrument itself is and how one would interact with it.

As for tuning, I'm not talking about what happens when one moves an old CP70 too much (which is, of course, to go out of tune).
Ironically, being out of tune can both be useful, as in some piano samples that attempt to replicate an old-time piano that's out-of-tune, and not useful, as in random notes being out of tune in a straight-up Steinway D that's you'd play a sonata on. Another example is damper noise - some like it, some don't. Heck, even the highest end pipe organ simulations ensure that you can hear the blower fan. The blower fan is only necessary for authenticity to what one would hear with a real organ. It's an artifact, but a useful one to have realism.

In short, I believe there are some things that can be captured from a realism standpoint that are desirable and some that aren't, but that touch is paramount to transitioning between a real and a digital instrument. Essentially, if the particular "flaw" at hand wouldn't require calling a piano repairman to get the issue repaired, it should be a candidate for inclusion in the simulation both from a touch and from a sound generation perspective. If it makes something convenient, it's always a nice option as long as it can be dialed down to whatever extent necessary.

Quote
In my case I can't physically accommodate a grand piano for starters. I would never choose an upright piano because I've never heard one I like. Uprights themselves are the manufacturers' way of replicating a proper piano whilst addressing the issue of size.


Yet a good upright piano has a place and a tone that some people like. I agree that it isn't ideal in many ways, but it is what it is. People still use them for effect, they still record with them, and they're still tonally useful in certain situations. In the bass world, a lot of people pan the Precision bass because it's got supposedly so little character compared to the wide range of Jazz basses, but nothing punches through a mix like a P-bass.

Quote
I have come to see these Yamahas as very promising instruments and I sincerely hope they meet the needs of some of the contributors to this forum. If you rule them out due to the lack of graded keys then that's up to you. Personally, graded keys are not on my agenda although I would accept that they are desirable to a segment of the market.

Cheers,

Steve


The issue with the CP1 and CP5, as I've said before, is that they have a big emphasis on EPs. EPs have a different action than APs, and that is what these pianos appear to be addressing. I'll see what they all feel like when they get here, but right now it looks like I'll be tending towards either the CP50, the RD700GX, or a new Kawai if they announce something in the next couple of months comparable to their original MP8 action.
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/02/10 09:24 AM
Originally Posted by pianodilemma

The issue with the CP1 and CP5, .....,


I have played them both and there is no issue with the CP1 and CP5 its all in your fertile imagination.
Posted By: daviel Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/02/10 01:09 PM
My issue with the CP5 is that it's not in any stores around here yet.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/02/10 03:33 PM
Originally Posted by daviel
My issue with the CP5 is that it's not in any stores around here yet.

Ha! That's my problem with the CP1. Does anyone here in the NY/NJ/PA area know of any store with a demo set up for tickling?
Posted By: pianodilemma Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/02/10 04:49 PM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Originally Posted by pianodilemma

The issue with the CP1 and CP5, .....,


I have played them both and there is no issue with the CP1 and CP5 its all in your fertile imagination.


You are incorrect. The CP1 and CP5 do not have a graded action presumably since they are trying to simulate EPs more authentically then APs. For those who seek an EP simulation, this is perfectly acceptable. Since acoustic pianos all have a graded piano action, and since the CP300 has a graded action, only the CP50 that has not been released yet has a chance to fulfill this function as a successor to the CP300 given the current model lineup, and may not be able to compete against other more mature actions.

If the CP1 and CP5 do not have a graded action, it is an issue for those who want a graded action. No amount of your incorrect characterization of this will change the facts or allow them to be diluted.
Posted By: EssBrace Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/02/10 04:57 PM
Try them out or choose not to...but constantly revisiting this issue will do you no good. You might like them when you play them and you might feel that your concerns were unfounded. Your opinions (at the moment just guesswork) will be more valid when you can say that you have played the CP1 and/or 5. Until then I don't think you are adding much to the debate.

Cheers,

Steve
Posted By: pianodilemma Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/02/10 05:43 PM
Originally Posted by EssBrace
Try them out or choose not to...but constantly revisiting this issue will do you no good. You might like them when you play them and you might feel that your concerns were unfounded. Your opinions (at the moment just guesswork) will be more valid when you can say that you have played the CP1 and/or 5. Until then I don't think you are adding much to the debate.

Cheers,

Steve


Dr Popper somehow thinks this issue is in my imagination, and brings the subject up again. Make sure you place equal cause on Dr Popper, unless you think that his comment on my imagination adds to the debate.
Posted By: Moose Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/02/10 08:49 PM
This is exactly the reason why I decided to stop posting after two or three posts. Everyone can have their own opinion, your is not better than mine, nor vice versa.
I work (and still do) for the Yamaha Company, but am or was in no way involved in the developement of the new CP-line. I work in a totally different area, but as a keyboardplayer I am ofcourse interested in our new stuff. Asking me about details I don't know anything about and then getting mad you don't get them is just one step to far, that's why I decided not to post anymore. It's true I was among a select few who had the chance to play on both CP1 and CP5 first, but similarities/differences between them, not a clue, I only had them for like ten minutes. But those ten minutes were enough for me to decide I simply HAD to get one.

And so I did, picked up my brand new CP1 today and spent somewhat two hours playing it and taking a much closer look on the details.

Here we go.

First of all, matter of taste or not, but the intensity of the backlit Yamahalogo can be changed and even switched off.

Building quality is simply superb, the instrument looks and feels solid, nice wood finish on the sideboards, similileather on top. It's neat. Few buttons, but very hands on, no unnecessary extra's, just keyboards.

Display is nice and clear and gives the information you need, three band EQ, hammer stiffness, Reberb Level, Chorus on the Rhodes patches,... I tampered a bit with the CFIII-sample and like the sound a bit better with hammer stifness soft, it just sounds warmer.

The pedal-unit is great. It has a good feel to it, and very important, it doesn't slide away from underneath your feet.

The keyboard itself then. Man, this feels amazing. I'm very used to a CP300, but man, do I prefer this one. It's somewhat lighter but so fantastically responsive. They've outdone themselves.

Sound then. The CFIII is the patch I will use the most, I already decided. I started of with some impro, high register, very low register, mid section, all great. Great sustain, no sign of looping or stretching. Clear discant and nice and full lower register. Dynamic range is fine. I tested it by playing Brahms op.10 Ballade nr. 1. Those who know the piece, know what I'm talking about :-)

Rhodes, to be explored further but up until now I prefer the Case73.

Right, a small report, I will try to make some sound examples tomorrow or later this week.
Posted By: madshi Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/02/10 09:07 PM
@Moose, thanks!! That's exactly the type of feedback we were hoping to get. Some sound examples would be awesome! Would be great if you could create one sound example which simply lets the AP sound decay, so we can hear for ourselves the lack of looping. smile
Welcome back, "Moose". I hope that you will continue to post, and will be treated will appropriate respect.

Thanks for your review. Interesting to note the number of points that are similar to my impression! (Great minds must think alike, huh!)

Lawrence

Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/02/10 10:21 PM
Yes, thank you Moose. I do apologize if I had anything to do with driving you away.

And I agree, the biggest problem with other people trying a keyboard and reporting back is the subjective nature of the feel and sound.

Sites like the Purgatory Creek DP Shootout attempt to address the sound question. And don't get me wrong, it is a tremendous service to those of us shopping for sound sets, modelers, and DPs. But to me the MIDI file they use has too many notes playing at the same time, which makes it difficult to hear details of the individual notes.

In an attempt to make any sound questions less subjective, I'm working on a diagnostic MIDI file that could be played on any DP, recorded, then an MP3 posted for all to listen and comment on. It reveals looping, stretching, layer switching, sympathetic resonance, and partial pedaling. Would you be interested in it? That is, could you perhaps run the MIDI file through the CP1 and post an MP3? If so, I would be deeply in your debt.
Posted By: box Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/03/10 12:11 AM
Originally Posted by pianodilemma

Dr Popper somehow thinks this issue is in my imagination, and brings the subject up again. Make sure you place equal cause on Dr Popper, unless you think that his comment on my imagination adds to the debate.


It would be a whole lot more accurate to characterize this as "your issue", rather than an issue with the CP1/5. And you are certainly entitled to have issues.

I think Yamaha has a wee bit of experience with this sort of thing and has done the necessary research to bring forth products that meet the needs of the intended markets.

You are just not part of that market. You need to be over there, in the graded key product line, waiting for the cool new AP sound technology to get incorporated.

Now who said the CP5 may not be the replacement for the CP300. Is there actually any real chance this might be true? That could have a large effect on my purchasing plans.
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/03/10 12:15 AM
Originally Posted by pianodilemma


If the CP1 and CP5 do not have a graded action, it is an issue for those who want a graded action. No amount of your incorrect characterization of this will change the facts or allow them to be diluted.


You have not PLAYED them ... you cannot possible comment on the action's suitability for AP play.

Until you have your just speculating.

Originally Posted by dewster

I'm working on a diagnostic MIDI file that could be played on any DP, recorded, then an MP3 posted for all to listen and comment on. It reveals looping, stretching, layer switching, sympathetic resonance, and partial pedaling.


+1
Originally Posted by Dr Popper

You have not PLAYED them ... you cannot possible comment on the action's suitability for AP play.

Until you have your just speculating.



I agree with this, Dr Popper.

And further, for pianodilemma's edification, once again from Athan, a respected Yamaha representative (posted originally at Keyboard Forum):

"... the NW stage is not graded. In developing this action, a number of different prototypes of the action ( some graded , some not) were developed and evaluated by a selection of pro players playing both the acoustic pianos and the electric pianos. They all felt that overall this action worked better for both the acoustics and the electrics.

The physics of the action in a reed or tine piano is very different than an acoustic piano. Of course , you really have to play it to decide for yourself, but the reaction to the keyboard action at NAMM was very, very positive."

And, to repeat myself - who actually has played the CP1 - I had no issues with the keyboard for playing AP's. None.

"pianodilemma" please play the CP1 and then share your opinions . . . .
Posted By: Dave Ferris Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/03/10 01:20 AM
.
Posted By: pianodilemma Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/03/10 03:35 AM
Originally Posted by box
Originally Posted by pianodilemma

Dr Popper somehow thinks this issue is in my imagination, and brings the subject up again. Make sure you place equal cause on Dr Popper, unless you think that his comment on my imagination adds to the debate.


It would be a whole lot more accurate to characterize this as "your issue", rather than an issue with the CP1/5. And you are certainly entitled to have issues.


It's not just my issue, and that's the point. Otherwise, the conclusion is that Roland has totally missed the mark with the RD700GX. Yet there are artists that endorse it today. If they didn't see value in it, they wouldn't use a graded action.

Quote
I think Yamaha has a wee bit of experience with this sort of thing and has done the necessary research to bring forth products that meet the needs of the intended markets.


If this was really the case, then the CP50 wouldn't have an older graded action. If this statement is wrong, we arrive back at the product segmentation issue I mentioned in an earlier post and is what needs to be discussed. It's not as cut and dried as you make it out to be, and even experienced companies can take different directions that leave certain market segments out in the cold.

Quote
You are just not part of that market. You need to be over there, in the graded key product line, waiting for the cool new AP sound technology to get incorporated.

Now who said the CP5 may not be the replacement for the CP300. Is there actually any real chance this might be true? That could have a large effect on my purchasing plans.


Actually the CP1 and CP5 are more like spiritual successors to the CP80. That's entirely ok. But that doesn't make Roland wrong either. The closest thing to a CP300 successor is the CP50 with the GH action. Maybe that's it. Then again, it's unclear if it can be played like a real piano with three pedals (though it's looking like it's not).
Posted By: pianodilemma Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/03/10 03:42 AM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Originally Posted by pianodilemma


If the CP1 and CP5 do not have a graded action, it is an issue for those who want a graded action. No amount of your incorrect characterization of this will change the facts or allow them to be diluted.


You have not PLAYED them ... you cannot possible comment on the action's suitability for AP play.

Until you have your just speculating.



Let me clarify one thing: does it feel graded, or doesn't it? It's irrelevant if the action feels good, better or best. From a pure physics perspective, is the force required to move keys different across the board or not? I am most certainly qualified to ask this no matter what your opinion is.

Let's focus on this question of actual physical force of each key on the CP1 and CP5 instead. Not my opinion or yours, but actual physical fact. Then we can move on to the semantics and nomenclature.
Posted By: pianodilemma Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/03/10 03:48 AM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
Originally Posted by Dr Popper

You have not PLAYED them ... you cannot possible comment on the action's suitability for AP play.

Until you have your just speculating.



I agree with this, Dr Popper.

And further, for pianodilemma's edification, once again from Athan, a respected Yamaha representative (posted originally at Keyboard Forum):

"... the NW stage is not graded. In developing this action, a number of different prototypes of the action ( some graded , some not) were developed and evaluated by a selection of pro players playing both the acoustic pianos and the electric pianos. They all felt that overall this action worked better for both the acoustics and the electrics.

The physics of the action in a reed or tine piano is very different than an acoustic piano. Of course , you really have to play it to decide for yourself, but the reaction to the keyboard action at NAMM was very, very positive."


I understand all of that. The key word (my emphasis) is electric pianos. I've stated repeatedly on this thread that the CP1 and CP5 appear to be more focused on EPs than APs. This is also obvious when one downloads the manual for the CP1 - there is a big focus on EP sound generation.

Quote
And, to repeat myself - who actually has played the CP1 - I had no issues with the keyboard for playing AP's. None.

"pianodilemma" please play the CP1 and then share your opinions . . . .


I will ask the same thing I asked Dr Popper above: is the physical force required the same or different across the keys? No opinions, just facts.
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/03/10 04:26 AM
Originally Posted by pianodilemma


Let me clarify one thing: does it feel graded, or doesn't it?


Yeah it does , I couldn't believe it wasn't graded after I played it.
Posted By: ChrisA Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/03/10 05:03 AM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Originally Posted by pianodilemma


Let me clarify one thing: does it feel graded, or doesn't it?


Yeah it does , I couldn't believe it wasn't graded after I played it.


There is a very good chance that the "grading" of the keys is done by adjusting the velocity curves. The grading could be different for different voices
Posted By: madshi Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/03/10 08:46 AM
A few more infos from the other forum. I had asked:

Quote
(1) The CP1 seems to have a 2-band and a 3-band variant of the CFIII. Does the CP5/CP50 CFIII match the 2-band or 3-band CP1 CFIII?
(2) Does the CP5/CP50 CFIII have a cut down sampling storage size compared to the matching CFIII sound in the CP1? Or is the sampling size identical?

Reply (from seemingly a Yamaha support guy):

Quote
The 2-band and 3-band variants are referencing the modeled preamp that is in the CP1. The CP5/CP50 do not have the preamp so the CFIIIS and S6 are the same source instrument minus the preamp. And yes the CP50 CFIIIS is identical to the CP1 minus the modeled preamp.

I think dewster should be happy to hear that... smile
Posted By: Moose Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/03/10 09:19 AM
So, I uploaded some sound clips to my iDisk. Take a look there, you'll find Claire de Lune on CF and S6.
Only mistake I made, I recorded the CF clip in mono (sorry), but you'll get a good impression anyways.
Also a soundclip of DX, Case 73 and Wurly. Don't pay too close attention to my playing, it's the sound that matters :-)

http://public.me.com/pedro.gordts

Requests I'll try to handle but haven't got much time lately.

Originally Posted by Moose
Take a look there, you'll find Claire de Lune on CF and S6.


Wow. I love the woodiness of the S6!
Posted By: theJourney Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/03/10 12:53 PM
I actually have been enjoying the woodiness of many of the reactions of the Yamaha CP line admirers here.
Originally Posted by theJourney
I actually have been enjoying the woodiness of many of the reactions of the Yamaha CP line admirers here.


D'oh!
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/03/10 01:14 PM
Hi Moose,

Thanks for taking the time to upload these demos.

The CFIII was disappointing...I liked my Avant Grand far better, but perhaps hearing the CF in stereo would help.

The S6...nice! "Woody" is definitely the appropriate term. wink

The case 73...really nice, and suitably Bob Jamesian.

The DX is very accurate...I have a TX-802.

The Wurly was also spot on.

Now, if we could hear the CFIII in stereo, it would really be great.

Snazzy
Posted By: EssBrace Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/03/10 02:56 PM
Thanks Moose!

I need to hear more of the APs. The CF in mono is impossible to judge. On the S6 I hear some lovely sustain on the bass but its final decay occurring behind other notes (whilst the piece continues) sounded a bit step-like, like it faded markedly in a couple of stages. It might just be the pedaling technique used.

The Rhodes and DX are spectacular - I'm totally convinced! Although I love the sound of them I've never been sure that a Wurlitzer works as a solo instrument. Fantastic in a mix but not all that pleasant on its own. This one is very good though.

I would love to have a play of the CP1 and would actually be genuinely excited about it. The APs are maybe just slightly lacking a bit of soul, I don't know. Like I said, I'd love to hear more.

Steve
Posted By: daviel Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/03/10 03:11 PM
Nice playing. The patches - all are terrific. Of course I am a true Yamaha-phile, but all sound better than what I am playing now. My iMac is in mono, though [flogging-dead-horse icon inserted here] wink
Posted By: JGonzalezGUS Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/03/10 03:45 PM
Originally Posted by Moose
And so I did, picked up my brand new CP1 today...
Man, this feels amazing. I'm very used to a CP300, but man, do I prefer this one.

Moose,
Since you have both the CP1 and CP300, maybe you can answer my question: the CP300 has 3 jacks for sustain, sostenuto and soft pedals (FC3/FC4/FC5 models). The CP1 also has 3 jacks for pedals. Can the CP1 pedal unit be connected to a CP300 and if so, will Yamaha sell it separately?
Thanks,
Jose
Posted By: Moose Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/03/10 03:53 PM
JGonzalezGUS, I'd have to try. I'll let you know later.

I uploaded two more pieces to my iDisk, this time simple impro's, but I tried to show you all the sustain this thing has got.

One clip is CF Grand in Stereo this time, other one is also CF Grand Stereo but hammerstifness one click softer (Soft1)

Let me know what you think. I can't seem to stop playing, the CP1 is addictive as heck...

Just for the record: recorded with LogicPro thru an Apogee firewire interface. Playback on Yamaha HS80M Studio Monitors, so very clear, focused and no chance to hide behind poor speaker quality :-)

M
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/03/10 04:14 PM
Moose,

The CFIII in stereo is astonishing...your playing is very nice as well, and does a great job of showcasing these sounds.

The soft hammered CFIII would be so sweet for jazz.

The sustain is better than most acoustic grands, and far, far better than uprights like the U3.

Methinks the other manufactures and owners of said products, will be very disappointed in the sound. wink

On the other hand, we Yamaha people are very impressed with these instruments.

Thank you for your uploads and for sharing your precious time making these demos.

Snazzy
Posted By: EssBrace Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/03/10 04:26 PM
CFIII....I am in love. I'm not by instinct a fan of the Yamaha sound but it blows me away on this new piano. I've heard enough. The CP1 is a cracker!

Steve
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/03/10 04:53 PM
Originally Posted by madshi
Quote
The 2-band and 3-band variants are referencing the modeled preamp that is in the CP1. The CP5/CP50 do not have the preamp so the CFIIIS and S6 are the same source instrument minus the preamp. And yes the CP50 CFIIIS is identical to the CP1 minus the modeled preamp.

I think dewster should be happy to hear that... smile

My strong supposition from the start. Nice to hear that Yamaha is probably not playing games with the sample sizes of identically named voices across these three DPs.
Posted By: pianodilemma Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/03/10 08:40 PM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Originally Posted by pianodilemma


Let me clarify one thing: does it feel graded, or doesn't it?


Yeah it does , I couldn't believe it wasn't graded after I played it.


Is the physical force required the same or different across the keys? No opinions, just facts.
Posted By: Moose Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/03/10 08:42 PM
Originally Posted by pianodilemma
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Originally Posted by pianodilemma


Let me clarify one thing: does it feel graded, or doesn't it?


Yeah it does , I couldn't believe it wasn't graded after I played it.


Is the physical force required the same or different across the keys? No opinions, just facts.


Not until you say the magic word, my friend...

Posted By: pianodilemma Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/03/10 08:57 PM
Originally Posted by Moose
So, I uploaded some sound clips to my iDisk. Take a look there, you'll find Claire de Lune on CF and S6.
Only mistake I made, I recorded the CF clip in mono (sorry), but you'll get a good impression anyways.
Also a soundclip of DX, Case 73 and Wurly. Don't pay too close attention to my playing, it's the sound that matters :-)

http://public.me.com/pedro.gordts

Requests I'll try to handle but haven't got much time lately.



The DX sounded fantastic, which was to be expected if they're emulating FM synthesis. Very well done, as was the Wurli and the '73. Lots of depth, didn't hear any looping. For sure I'm happier with these.

As for the pianos, it's a mixed bag. I actually was a bigger fan of the S6 than the CFIII. I thought the CFIII was a touch too bright up top for my tastes. I think some slight EQing could take care of my concerns, but I was more partial overall to the S6. Again, no looping, and much better than anything I've heard before.

Overall, fantastic sound and zero real complaints in that department. I would've liked to have seen at least a U5, though I guess there's always Ivory if I'm really going for that sound.
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/03/10 10:08 PM
This is driving me crazy waiting for mine to arrive.
Posted By: Moose Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/03/10 10:10 PM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
This is driving me crazy waiting for mine to arrive.


I'm so sorry...
Posted By: daviel Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/03/10 11:19 PM
Moose, Thank you for all the valuable information. Have you got any idea when the CP5 and CP50 are going on the market in the US?
I'm excited even by the less woody CFIII!
I'm excited even by the less woody CFIII!
Moose -

Are your demos of the AP's recorded with the default effects, or did you do external processing?

Thanks,

Lawrence

PS - Yamaha should use your demos at yamahasynth.com!
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/04/10 12:41 AM
Hello Moose,

Truly amazing sound clips!

I really appreciate the effort you went through to play and post them! Both you and the CP1 sound fantastic!

Originally Posted by Moose
Requests I'll try to handle but haven't got much time lately.

Well, now that you mention it... smile

I've been busy for the past couple of days, working on something like the MIDI file they use over at Purgatory Creek for the Digital Piano Shootout only much more laser-like in its diagnostic abilities.

I've honed it as best I can, and it's pretty good at revealing looping, stretching, layer switching, sympathetic resonance, and half-pedaling in whatever it's played on. I call it:

THE DIGITAL PIANO BS DETECTOR

or the dp_bsd for short. It can be found here:

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=7ef2fd9c0f59e62824a64199ac7f73e562543888620acf74e91dc00c2f906379

Along with the MIDI file (currently dp_bsd_v1.3.mid) you can find a readme file that explains what it does and how to use it. I also put several MP3 sound clips there - test output from Pianoteq, Windows Media Player, VintAudio C7, and TruePianos Diamond. I intend to do my P120 as soon as I can get it near my computer.

Anyone else that wants to upload an MP3 to that directory from the MIDI file played on their DP (a P155 would be nice, as would one of the newer Casios) please feel free, but please peruse the readme file first for directions. I can then help you interpret the results. I'll probably start another thread for that. But I digress...

So, if you could run that MIDI file through your shiny new CP1, capture the sound, and post an MP3, either back in that directory at mediafire, or in your share point, I would be terribly, terribly appreciative.

Please?
Posted By: FogVilleLad Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/04/10 12:44 AM
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
The CFIII in stereo is astonishing...your playing is very nice as well, and does a great job of showcasing these sounds. The soft hammered CFIII would be so sweet for jazz.

Methinks the other manufactures and owners of said products, will be very disappointed in the sound. On the other hand, we Yamaha people are very impressed with these instruments.


Originally Posted by pianodilemma
I thought the CFIII was a touch too bright up top for my tastes.


One of the things which makes pianos so fascinating is how different people are affected differently by the same tonal palette. The CFIII-Soft was the first Yamaha I've heard which sounded as if it might be enjoyable to play for long periods.

The brightness of the default AP sounds of the two Yamaha P-series DP's that I own/have owned was what pushed me toward software pianos. Currently my daily player has become Galaxy II's Bosendorfer. Took a while to get used to it, but I don't want to play anything else. All that said, the quality of the CP1's AP sounds as downloaded is outstanding.

Moose, thanks for the uploads. Your improvising would be easy to listen to for hours.
Posted By: Moose Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/04/10 08:07 AM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
Moose -

Are your demos of the AP's recorded with the default effects, or did you do external processing?

Thanks,

Lawrence

PS - Yamaha should use your demos at yamahasynth.com!


Just default effects, no extra processing!

@Dewster: I'll try to run it thru this afternoon but can't promise anything, lots of work to do

Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/05/10 01:46 AM
Originally Posted by Moose
@Dewster: I'll try to run it thru this afternoon but can't promise anything, lots of work to do

Thanks! Not trying to push you into something you are too busy to accommodate.

I ran the DP BSD MIDI file over my P120 today and it took forever! Had to drag the P120 downstairs, install my MIA card & drivers, figure out L&R (the worst part believe it or not), record it, re-record it in stereo (MIA and Audition are complex), analyze it, etc.

But I do hope someone will do it very soon - I have bated breath and everything...
Posted By: PhilipK Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/06/10 08:50 PM
Daviel: i dont know the release dates for allt the world, but from Yamaha Scandinavia they told me the new CP line should be available from May this year.
I could't wait myself until then, so i bought a CP33 which im wery happy with so far. =)
The old CP line has dropped in price, i got mine CP33 for 1080 EUR.
Posted By: daviel Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/06/10 10:23 PM
The USA sites like Sweetwater are listing May, too. I am sure that's it. I don't need to be spending any money right now anyway, and I am happy with MY CP33, too. You made a very wise buy - enjoy it!
Posted By: Zinfan Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/07/10 06:17 AM
I guess I’m a shallow person but I’d like to know how the synthetic ivory keys felt compared to a Roland RD-700GX keyboard or something similar? I picked the Roland since I got a chance to demo it in a Guitar Center the other day and really liked the feel of it both in action and how my fingers liked the ivory-like keys. I’ve read all the glowing reports of the action on the CP-1/CP-5 but not much on the keys themselves. I had been recounting my demos of the Roland along with a Korg SV-1 and a RD-300GX and a CP-300 to some friends and one of them remarked how often I had commented on the 700GX’s keys. That got me re-evaluating my conclusions from the demos where I had honed in on the SV1-73 as the front runner for purchase since I dug its smaller size and weight compared to the 700GX and the CP-300. With out getting too off topic in a thread about the new CP’s I now feel I could handle the larger keyboard if the features and price met my needs and since I was considering the 700GX of course the CP-5 is of similar size/weight/price hence my desire to see what the lucky people who got to try the CP1 and CP5 thought of the ivory like keys. I don’t have a good description of why the 700GX keys were better but they had a nice texture to them while all the other ones I tried had a slicker plasticiky surface. Oh and I liked the acoustic piano sounds on both the Korg and Roland so it isn’t all about the key feel but I’d say I liked the action of the Roland keyboard above that of the Korg which seemed to have a bit too much rebound for me.
Posted By: EssBrace Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/09/10 08:20 PM
Guys,

MusikSchmidt in Frankfurt have updated their CP1 demo a few hours ago...now features a much better player...doesn't move us on too much but it's nice to hear more of the CP1 (too much talking, not enough playing though, unless you can understand German in which case it is probably very useful!).

http://www.youtube.com/user/MusikSchmidt#p/u/0/EV-CT-SJP8Q

Cheers,

Steve
Posted By: M. Doege Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/10/10 12:00 PM
Isn't that the same player as before, just in a new video? Still no sign of Olaf Brauns. Too bad, his videos were always so wonderful and he was never shy to express some criticism if there there was something he didn't like about a piano.
Posted By: EssBrace Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/10/10 03:53 PM
No, different player this time, who I think is better than Olaf. The previous player just banged some chords out rather clumsily. But you are quite right, Olaf makes the best videos and has nice modest playing style.
Posted By: M. Doege Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/10/10 04:49 PM
The problem is that Olaf is the only player who will occasionally play something recognizable like Bach. The others just noodle around as if they are playing in a bar. To evaluate the tone of a piano I need to hear a piece I know, not some laughable improvisations. I'm more interested in how the CP-1 sounds in counterpoint, not as a terrible 1980s Pop piano.

I suspect Olaf is the only one of them who has had real (Classical) piano lessons at some point, and boy does it show...
Posted By: eep Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/10/10 05:48 PM
Does anyone know how the sympathetic resonance model behaves in the CP-1/5/50? If you hold down middle C without sounding it, and then you bang staccato on low C, does it do the right thing? That is to say, is resonance modeled for individual key dampers?

And does anyone know if the CP-33 does this? I'm also trying to decide between cheaper now or pricier later... Thanks!
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/10/10 05:48 PM
Originally Posted by EssBrace
No, different player this time, who I think is better than Olaf. The previous player just banged some chords out rather clumsily. But you are quite right, Olaf makes the best videos and has nice modest playing style.

Thanks for the pointer Steve! He seems to have a decent touch.

Too bad the audio is mono though. And I suspect these guys are paid by the note. smile
Posted By: Zinfan Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/10/10 09:08 PM
I keep expecting to see Dr. Popper drop in here with more impressions of the CP-1 but perhaps he hasn't gotten his yet or maybe he can't tear himself away from the keyboard to post a reply. I'm hoping it is the later choice.
Posted By: FogVilleLad Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/11/10 01:11 AM
I hope he'll include his impression of the CFIII-Soft.
Posted By: EssBrace Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/11/10 03:23 PM
I agree, CFIII-Soft is the one that made me think again about the Yamaha sound....just beautiful from what we've heard so far. What impressed me particularly was the fact that some "mellow" or "soft" patches on DPs in general sound dull and just basically EQ'd down in the treble. The CP1-Soft sounded completely articulate and lacked that muffled sound you sometimes get.

Steve
Posted By: linken Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/11/10 06:26 PM
I have bought a CP1, just played a small session and recorded in different piano modes

http://www.solopianodiary.com/yamaha-cp1.html

Posted By: madshi Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/11/10 06:30 PM
Thanks linken! Would you mind recording the test file from this thread?

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1365103/The DP BSD Project!.html

That would be awesome!!

P.S: Like your playing, btw.
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/11/10 07:15 PM
Originally Posted by linken
I have bought a CP1, just played a small session and recorded in different piano modes

Nice playing linken! And congratulations on the new CP1!

I second the request for a DPBSD MP3 (just make sure the MIDI tempo is set to 120 and the reverb is turned off). If you can do it, I'm sure many people here would be very grateful.
Posted By: FogVilleLad Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/11/10 07:29 PM
Originally Posted by EssBrace
I agree, CFIII-Soft is the one that made me think again about the Yamaha sound....just beautiful from what we've heard so far. What impressed me particularly was the fact that some "mellow" or "soft" patches on DPs in general sound dull and just basically EQ'd down in the treble. The CP1-Soft sounded completely articulate and lacked that muffled sound you sometimes get. Steve
+1!
Posted By: losthorizon777 Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/12/10 11:44 PM
Someone at Guitar center told me the CP50 will only come out in august. Is this true?
Posted By: 10fingers Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/13/10 01:21 AM
Well, their website says "due 3/31/2010", so someone's telling porkies...
Posted By: Kawai James Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/13/10 01:30 AM
10fingers, is cockney rhyming slang popular in California...?

Cheers,
James
x

Posted By: voxpops Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/13/10 05:03 AM
Septic Tanks talking Cockney? I wouldn't 'ave Adam and Eved it unless I'd seen it with my own mince pies.

Sorry about the OT response, but there's still at least a month or more to go before we get to actually handle the CP5 and CP50, and I'm getting bored...
Posted By: Peakly Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/13/10 08:26 AM
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
It will have to go a long way in beating the action in my CP-300, which is definitely one the best in a digital, in my opinion, aside from the action in my Avant Grand.

I'm still annoyed that they are only implementing one wheel on the CP-1/5/50, and none of them are a whole lot lighter than my CP-300; and it has speakers!

If they aren't all they's cracked up to be, I'm buying an XK-1 Hammond to put on top of my CP-300 instead.

Snazzy


Hi, I'm new to the forum. I'm a pianist, and make my living as a musician. I've got a 7' Bosendorfer, and some synths and keyboards. I'm interested in updating my digital piano rig, and this forum discussion is the best I've found concerning these new CPs.

What Snazzy said there caught my interest. The digital piano that looks the most interesting to me, other than these new CPs, is the CP-300. I like that I could put another keyboard directly on top of the CP-300. I can see from the pictures that it's a different arrangement on the CP1/5 - there are knobs and the display up on top of the keyboard. So it would be harder to figure out a way to put another keyboard on top. What is that material on top of the CP1 and CP5? Is it plastic? Is it hard, or does it give pretty easily if you push on it? Is the whole top slanted down towards the keys?

Also, the extra sounds on the CP5 - are they the same as the extra sounds on the CP-300? They call them "XG Voices" on the 300. Any idea if they are better, or different on the CP5, than what's included on the CP-300?

Thanks very much if anyone can help me with these questions. I just found this forum today, and I read almost this entire thread about the new CPs, but I did skim a little in the middle. I apologize if these questions have already been answered earlier in the thread.

Mychal
Posted By: 10fingers Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/13/10 08:59 AM
Originally Posted by KAWAI James
10fingers, is cockney rhyming slang popular in California...?


Only amongst transplants, James. And as voxpops voiced, there's a month to go (at least!!!) 'til these boards come out, and so I'm doing my bit to keep the thread near the top of the list while not actually contributing anything of substance.

Could it all be a Yamaha plot (a la Steve Jobs) to stir up interest to a frenzy before the arrival?

Jonathan
Posted By: TTigg Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/13/10 03:29 PM
Originally Posted by Peakly


Hi, I'm new to the forum. I'm a pianist, and make my living as a musician. I've got a 7' Bosendorfer, and some synths and keyboards. I'm interested in updating my digital piano rig, and this forum discussion is the best I've found concerning these new CPs.

What Snazzy said there caught my interest. The digital piano that looks the most interesting to me, other than these new CPs, is the CP-300. I like that I could put another keyboard directly on top of the CP-300. I can see from the pictures that it's a different arrangement on the CP1/5 - there are knobs and the display up on top of the keyboard. So it would be harder to figure out a way to put another keyboard on top. What is that material on top of the CP1 and CP5? Is it plastic? Is it hard, or does it give pretty easily if you push on it? Is the whole top slanted down towards the keys?

Also, the extra sounds on the CP5 - are they the same as the extra sounds on the CP-300? They call them "XG Voices" on the 300. Any idea if they are better, or different on the CP5, than what's included on the CP-300?

Thanks very much if anyone can help me with these questions. I just found this forum today, and I read almost this entire thread about the new CPs, but I did skim a little in the middle. I apologize if these questions have already been answered earlier in the thread.

Mychal


Mychal,
There is actually a used CP300 going in our neighborhood. Considering the recent drop in price they may be willing to bargain even more - just thought I would pass it on thumb

CP300 on Local Southern Cal Cragislist

- SC
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/13/10 10:20 PM
In case anyone is interested, I just posted a DPBSD review of Lawrence's CP1 over on that thread.

Linkeydink
Posted By: Peakly Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/13/10 11:53 PM
Originally Posted by TTigg
There is actually a used CP300 going in our neighborhood. Considering the recent drop in price they may be willing to bargain even more - just thought I would pass it on thumb


Thanks very much for that link! I just sent him an email, so we'll see what happens.

Does anyone know if the sounds (besides the piano and EP) in the new CP5 are the same as the CP-300?

Also, I'm curious if that's plastic on top of the CP1 and CP5. I'm guessing it is.

Mychal
Originally Posted by Peakly

Also, I'm curious if that's plastic on top of the CP1 and CP5. I'm guessing it is.



I believe it's vinyl. It's got a textured design and look.
Posted By: EssBrace Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/14/10 12:37 AM
Yes it's supposed to mimic the stuff on top of the old electric grands...Tolex did they call it?
Posted By: linken Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/14/10 06:10 AM
I played on a live concert yesterday with my CP1 and a band. It looks nice and a bit retro. A beautiful instrument.
CP-300 is the most practical and ugliest piano Yamaha has ever made, BIG place to put computer keyboard, mouse and extras. Live you could put scores etc. My CP1 has those enormous knobs in the middle and even though I put some scores they dont feel "safe" and you cant change sounds easily.

The "vinyl" material is hard plastic vinyl imitation.
That area is a bit sloped (very little)
Forget about putting a extra synth on top. (the CP-300 is very capable)
There is of course no onboard speakers.

The CP-300 has graded action and has one of the industries best stage piano key action.
The CP1 has a very unique hammer action that is very easy to play on and once you adapt you can use all your dynamics. The action is miles from the N3 etc.
A pure classical pianist would probably hate the Yamaha CP1 the first two days.
The rhodes sounds goes superb with the new action.

I did a quick recording
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqLtN4TKWQw

//Linken



Posted By: Peakly Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/14/10 08:05 AM
Originally Posted by linken
My CP1 has those enormous knobs in the middle and even though I put some scores they dont feel "safe" and you cant change sounds easily.


Linken, thanks for the review and comparison with the CP-300. Everytime I look at the CP1 or CP5 I wonder why they put those big knobs and screen right smack in the middle like that. I'm sure it's easy to see, and the big knobs would be easy to turn, but for me at least, it's impractical. It sounds like it was a bit of a hassle for you too.

I'm wondering why you think the CP-300 is ugly. I can see why you would say it's practical, though. I think it was brilliant to arrange everything on that small sloped panel, and leave the top flat and open. I've tried it a few times in stores, and it was easy to get around and adjust different parameters.

How would you compare the piano sounds of the CP1 and CP-300? How about the Rhodes sounds? Have you gigged with the CP-300? If so, any shortcomings that made you wish you had something else? Thanks for any help!

Mychal
Posted By: theJourney Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/15/10 07:08 AM
It will be very interesting to see if the CP-300 is kept on or if something comes out that bridges between the CP-50 and the P-155 later.
Posted By: EssBrace Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/15/10 10:42 AM
Shallow I know but the thing that would prevent me ever having a CP-300 is its ugliness! It's just a shapeless black slab. I had a P-200 which was its forerunner and it was a very good piano but no visual charisma at all.

Steve
Originally Posted by EssBrace
Shallow I know but the thing that would prevent me ever having a CP-300 is its ugliness! It's just a shapeless black slab. I had a P-200 which was its forerunner and it was a very good piano but no visual charisma at all.

Steve


I don't know if that position is shallow, but I did at one point have a Motif XS8 in the studio, and really didn't like the colour. It bugged me. (My wife, though, actually like it). So there you go, to each their own.

Bottom line, function (how it plays / sounds) has to come before form and aesthetics, but it's nice to all three. (Now I want some cake for breakfast . . . !)
Posted By: linken Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/15/10 05:43 PM
The Yamaha CP-300 tweaked mellow piano sound is here
http://www.solopianodiary.com/music_sample/LoveWithoutLimit.m3u

The Yamaha CP1 piano sound is here
http://www.solopianodiary.com/music_sample/Yamaha_CP1/Christian_Lindquist_2010-Feb-12_Melankolia.mp3

The Yamaha S90 ES piano sound is here
http://www.solopianodiary.com/mp3s/...o%20Diary%20-%2009%20-%202007-Dec-16.mp3

The Ivory Italian Grand is here
http://www.solopianodiary.com/music_sample/hesitation.m3u

The Ivory Upright Piano is here
http://www.solopianodiary.com/music_sample/varmland.m3u

The rhodes sound is not from the same planet, comparing CP-300 with CP1. CP1 has top notch detailed sounds.

It is very easy to gig with a "tank" like CP-300. Good master keyboard for layers etc. If I would go on a club tour, I would take the CP-300. If I would go "concert" I would go CP1.



Posted By: FogVilleLad Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/15/10 06:58 PM
linken, the "tweaked" CP 300 mellow, what does tweaked mean? I'm asking because Piano 2 on the two P-series Yammies that I own/have owned sounds like mush, whereas the CP's is actually enjoyable to listen to - as is your playing - and I may have to go back to playing a stage piano at home.



I'm digging my CP1!

My default go to patch is #5 Lush Piano, either with the Hammer set to Normal, or to Soft 1. This is using the CF 3Band Adjusting the hammers does change the character, and I find my self actually playing differently, depending on what setting I'm using. This is as it should be.

My second default go to patch is #04 S6 Lounge, either with Hammer set to Soft 1 or Soft 2. This patch uses the S6 3Band.

However, some of the other patches are awesome, as well, and may become my default go to patches!

I've experimented with some tweaking, but not to improve the sound, but to explore what the parameters will actually do. So often with DP's or samples, the patch programming is not that great, and you need to work very hard to improve the situation. Not so with the CP1. The patches are excellent. This machine is totally useable right out of the box.

Man, are these pianos detailed and alive. I'm in love with them. I have the day off, due to a provincial holiday, and have a giant to-do list, but find myself instead drawn to the CP1, not just because it is new in the studio, or because I'm trying to avoid my to-do list, but because it is so enjoyable to play.

The range of expression on both pianos is amazing, and allows for very creative results. In other words, you play differently. It feels like you're playing AP's not a digital piano.

Best DP I've ever played? Yes.

Better than sampled pianos I've played? I would have to say yes.

This thing sounds alive! It sounds real!

I also love how it sounds recorded, which is not something that I can always say. Some DP's / samples sound good while you're playing them, but disappointing on playback after you've recorded them.

Yesterday I turned on the CD player in my car. Some nice piano started playing. I thought, that sounds really nice, I wonder what this is? Oh, its the CP1! (I had dumped some of the user demos from Moose and linken to CDR and had forgotten about it being in the car).

So, of course, your milage may vary, but anyone considering a stage piano would be well advised to check out the new CP1, and subsequently CP5 or CP50 depending on your needs.

And no, I don't work for Yamaha. I've just become a real fan of this keyboard.
Posted By: linken Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/15/10 08:19 PM
The tweaked CP-300 is the "mellow piano" patch. with voice edits.
The ordinary CP-300 piano sound has a very characteristic "twing" in the tone. (instantly recognized as Yamaha) But I have put a foot pedal in the soft pedal jack and left it "on" all the time. This removes the "twing" and if you then increase brightness you get a woody sound that goes well for solo piano. In a band NOT.

Posted By: KrAYZEE Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/15/10 11:28 PM
Originally Posted by linken
The tweaked CP-300 is the "mellow piano" patch. with voice edits.
The ordinary CP-300 piano sound has a very characteristic "twing" in the tone. (instantly recognized as Yamaha) But I have put a foot pedal in the soft pedal jack and left it "on" all the time. This removes the "twing" and if you then increase brightness you get a woody sound that goes well for solo piano. In a band NOT.




You can accomplish the same thing with an 1/4 inch (mono) plug with no cable attached. You just have to know whether the Yamaha wants normally open or normally closed (sometimes called the polarity of the pedal). With a normally open jack you have to jumper the two lugs of the plug with small wire (after unscrewing the shell). With a normally closed jack you have to leave the two lugs alone and it will activate the soft circuit just by being plugged in. Either way you buy the same plug for a few dollars at Rat Schack

It would be an odd keyboard that this didn't work on. It's how they check the jacks on keyboards at the shop my wife owns.

KZ
Posted By: Kawai James Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/16/10 02:06 AM
Wow, nice hack. wink

That reminds me of this trick, used to 'ghost' an external VGA display among the Hackintosh community.

[Linked Image]

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Peakly Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/16/10 04:54 AM
Originally Posted by linken
The rhodes sound is not from the same planet, comparing CP-300 with CP1. CP1 has top notch detailed sounds.


Thanks very much for posting those links! That is very helpful. You play really nicely too - I'm assuming that's you?

Your new CP1 stands out for the clarity of its tone. It sounds good. I'm curious why you didn't wait to try a CP5 with the additional sounds. Would you have bought the CP1 over the CP5 even if both were available now?

The CP1 does have a nice look to it. Somehow it reminds me of my Rhodes from a million years ago.

Mychal
Posted By: Peakly Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/16/10 05:00 AM
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
Best DP I've ever played? Yes.


That's cool you are so happy with it. I'm in the market for a new digital piano right now for live use, and this one and the CP5 are at the top of the list.

I asked Linken the same question - I'm wondering why you sprang for the CP1 instead of checking out the CP5. Is the CP1 clearly superior to the CP5 as a piano/rhodes axe? Obviously you know it's double the price, without the additional sounds. So I'm wondering what it is that made you choose the CP1.

Mychal
Posted By: Kawai James Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/16/10 05:12 AM
Originally Posted by Peakly
The CP1 does have a nice look to it. Somehow it reminds me of my Rhodes from a million years ago.


+1

James
x
Posted By: Dave Ferris Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/16/10 07:50 AM
.
Posted By: FogVilleLad Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/16/10 09:16 AM
linken, I would never have thought to do that. Amazing!
Posted By: Peakly Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/16/10 03:30 PM
Originally Posted by linken
The rhodes sound is not from the same planet, comparing CP-300 with CP1. CP1 has top notch detailed sounds.


I'm slowly but surely figuring this out. The CPs look like an old Rhodes, the keyboard is not graded, and the electric piano sounds are one of its biggest selling points. So a big part of its market niche is being able to get great EP sounds and also get some of that feel of playing on one.

I wish I wasn't worried about the fact that the action isn't graded. I wonder if there was much of a debate on whether to have a graded action in there or not.

Mychal
Posted By: Kawai James Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/16/10 09:39 PM
Originally Posted by Mychal
I wonder if there was much of a debate on whether to have a graded action in there or not.


This point was discussed earlier on in the thread. I believe the general consensus was that the non-graded action on the CP1/CP5 was not a problem for most players. However it's perhaps worth nothing that the CP50 uses the GH action, which one would assume is graded (GH = Graded Hammer).

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/16/10 09:50 PM
I believe the actions in Nord's stage pianos are not graded.

I believe Kurzweil are the same.

I suspect when the CP-series technology winds up in CLP (home use)instruments, the action will be graded.

Snazzy
Posted By: Kawai James Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/16/10 10:06 PM
[quote]I suspect when the CP-series technology winds up in CLP (home use)instruments, the action will be graded.[quote]

Yes, I believe a number of other folks have made similar predictions.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/16/10 10:14 PM
The bottom line will be if these ungraded action stage pianos are successful, Roland and perhaps others, will be soon be making their own versions.

I wish they'd (Roland) bring back the SK-6 Rotary-Oil Damped action...that was ungraded and a beauty too. Those old RD pianos were great feeling instruments.

Snazzy



Posted By: linken Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/16/10 10:40 PM
I was on the hunt for CLAVIA Nord Piano. It's a Swedish company so I called them (I'm Swedish) and they said it would not be launched until april + -. So I went to my regular shop and a box with a CP1 was incoming. They asked me if I wanted to try it. I bought it after about 1 minute of testing. I did not have a clue about CP5 or the price levels when I was driving home. I still don't. (and now it is to late to turn back :-)
-------------------
My recording chain on the CP300 was (I am selling it) balanced out in to Yamaha MR816CSX connected to Cubase 5 64 bit, on a Win 7 DAW.
After normalization (minus 2-3 DB) I sometimes use Ozone from Izotope and their "cd master" preset.

There is no additional effects than the CP300 it self.
--------------------
It's my recordings. I do that as a meditation to survive my work as a marketing director in the marine business. I would quit and play piano full time if I could afford it. Sweden don't have any market for Solo Piano and my daughter is 13 and very demanding in her personal cash flow :-)


Posted By: Peakly Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/17/10 01:06 AM
Originally Posted by linken
Sweden don't have any market for Solo Piano and my daughter is 13 and very demanding in her personal cash flow :-)


Funny how that works isn't it? A lot of money going that direction here too.

Thanks for describing your keyboard search. I've considered the Nord too, but it's too red! I've narrowed it down to the CP-300 or the CP5 - the black tank, or the Fender Rhodes look-alike.

Mychal
It will only get worse, as your daughter gets older. Believe me.
Interesting to note a number of very positive posts about the CP1 have appeard, from people who have played it, at Keyboard Corner.

(I'll be posting there myself, when I get a chance). Nice.
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/24/10 01:16 AM
Yep, actually playing an instrument somehow makes a big difference in one's experience in how it feels and sounds.

What a concept, eh? (I'm practicing my Canadian) wink

Snazzy

Posted By: daviel Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 02/24/10 02:10 AM
I like hearing what people say who have really played the instrument.
Posted By: Peakly Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/02/10 02:25 AM
Well, this is bad news, at least for me. I was told today that the CP-5 won't be available until late May, or early June at the soonest. A sales person at Sweetwater gave me this information, and said he had it straight from the Yamaha rep. I was on the waiting list, but I don't think I'm going to wait that long.

Besides, he said they could easily push the date back even farther if they run into more delays. I'm disappointed. I was looking forward to checking one out, and hopefully buying it.

Mychal
Posted By: Kawai James Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/02/10 02:28 AM
Perhaps they heard about dewster's test? wink

I'm sure any delays will be absolutely worth it.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/02/10 02:32 AM
Originally Posted by Peakly
Well, this is bad news, at least for me. I was told today that the CP-5 won't be available until late May, or early June at the soonest.

Mychal


Not sure that's actually true because a few CP5's are around already at Artist services and the stores cannot be far behind. It usually it takes a few weeks for them to show up in stores after artist services gets their first batch.
Posted By: Zinfan Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/02/10 03:34 AM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Originally Posted by Peakly
Well, this is bad news, at least for me. I was told today that the CP-5 won't be available until late May, or early June at the soonest.

Mychal


Not sure that's actually true because a few CP5's are around already at Artist services and the stores cannot be far behind. It usually it takes a few weeks for them to show up in stores after artist services gets their first batch.


<sigh> I can only hope that is the case Dr. Popper, I really want to try this thing out. I'm going to have to buy it with out playing it though since there isn't a store within 100 miles of me that will carry it. I'll just have to make sure there is a good return policy on it. I need to just chill out and wait for this to hit the streets and not go buy that SV-1 even if it delays things by a month or two. I'm sure about the time the CP-5 arrives in stores that Kawai will announce a brand new series of DP's with even better specs smile
Posted By: Peakly Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/02/10 06:03 AM
Originally Posted by KAWAI James
I'm sure any delays will be absolutely worth it.


Quote
Not sure that's actually true because a few CP5's are around already at Artist services and the stores cannot be far behind. It usually it takes a few weeks for them to show up in stores after artist services gets their first batch.


Well, I'm glad I said something then, although I'm confused about where this salesman is getting his information. He was certain that there wouldn't be any available for at least three months, yet Dr Popper, you're saying that some are already in circulation.

Also, does it make sense that there would be a fully operational CP5 at NAMM, but there wouldn't be any sold until almost six months later?

Mychal
Posted By: Volusiano Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/02/10 07:07 AM
Originally Posted by KAWAI James
Perhaps they heard about dewster's test? wink

I'm sure any delays will be absolutely worth it.

Cheers,
James
x


Haha, very subtle, James! I appreciate the humour. grin
Posted By: p120player Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/02/10 08:01 AM
Originally Posted by Peakly
Well, this is bad news, at least for me. I was told today that the CP-5 won't be available until late May, or early June at the soonest. A sales person at Sweetwater gave me this information, and said he had it straight from the Yamaha rep. I was on the waiting list, but I don't think I'm going to wait that long.

Besides, he said they could easily push the date back even farther if they run into more delays. I'm disappointed. I was looking forward to checking one out, and hopefully buying it.

Mychal
Unfortunately I can confirm this. I talked to a salesperson at Thomann in Germany and he said the CP5/CP50 will be available mid/end of May earliest. That sucks. I really don’t feel like waiting that long.

Posted By: Kawai James Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/02/10 08:14 AM
Come on guys, it's only a couple of extra months - I'm sure the new models will be worth the wait.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: theJourney Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/02/10 08:35 AM
Originally Posted by KAWAI James
Perhaps they heard about dewster's test? wink

I'm sure any delays will be absolutely worth it.

Cheers,
James
x


LOL. thumb
Posted By: daviel Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/02/10 02:49 PM
I like reading the jonesing GAS posts. Why not rent something for a few months?
Posted By: EssBrace Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/02/10 06:03 PM
I agree it would probably be worth the wait in the long run...the CP5 looks like the pick of the range and it seems everyone that has played a CP1 loves it...the CP5 must be very very close to a CP1 in terms of pure piano performance.

If it was me though I wouldn't wait despite my words above...I'm too impatient. You could always put a dodgy wig on, big glasses and have a temper tantrum and tell Yamaha Artist Services you are Elton John...you'd probably find a CP5 would be forthcoming!

Steve
Posted By: Swamp Crocodile Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/02/10 08:22 PM
Repeat this mantra 896 times: it really works

I have no problem waiting a couple of months ...
It gives me two more months of training to be less unworthy of such an instrument ...
See, I am calm ... relaxed ...
Ommmmmmmmm

Posted By: mal777 Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/02/10 09:15 PM
I'm currently waiting on the Cp5, Ivory 2, Roland Supernatural expansion, Scarbee CEP, as well as the new Ipad.
I really wish they wouldn't announce new products until they are ready to ship :-(
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/02/10 11:21 PM
Originally Posted by EssBrace

If it was me though I wouldn't wait despite my words above...I'm too impatient. You could always put a dodgy wig on, big glasses and have a temper tantrum and tell Yamaha Artist Services you are Elton John...you'd probably find a CP5 would be forthcoming!

Steve


You don't have to go to those lengths Yamaha AS offer a pretty good service.You just ask your rep and usually if they have it it arrives within a month or so. The CP5 is available now from Artist services in the West Coast of USA I'd give them a few weeks and most offices will have it. Then about 3-4 weeks later it will show up in retail.
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/03/10 05:16 PM
Greetings from Canada, guys,

I played a Yamaha CP-1 last night at a friend's place.

Awesome. Simply awesome. The new action is, for my purposes, perfect, and the panel layout is so simple, yet so effective, it takes no time at all to get comfotable.

The connection between action and sound, soundly trumps any VST pianos I have played...in my opinion, this is where the all-in-one instrument rules.

The acoustic pianos are incredible....this is an instrument that must be played to be appreciated. The Rhodes pianos were, combined with the great keyboard, like playing a perfectly set up Rhodes.

My friend had to practically drag me away from it...it is just so "playable" and responsive/expressive...it almost feels like the keyboard works differently for each patch.

I wish I had got more time on it, but may have another chance on Thursday.

If they put this sound engine in a Clavinova home piano, they will have another winner on their hands.

I'm going to try out a Roland HP-307 this afternoon, and this evening, I'll get to try an RD-700 with the Supernatural piano, as the Roland rep just happens to be doing a clinic at the local music store.

I can understand why Lawrence and Doc Popper were so enthusiastic about the CP-1...they were spot on with their impressions.

Hopefully the Roland instruments will measure up to the hype the same as the Yamaha.

Snazzy




Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/03/10 05:53 PM
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
Awesome. Simply awesome. The new action is, for my purposes, perfect, and the panel layout is so simple, yet so effective, it takes no time at all to get comfotable.

Yamaha is infamous for their horrible user interfaces, particularly on their synths. Nice to see them putting a bit more effort into it.

Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
The connection between action and sound, soundly trumps any VST pianos I have played...in my opinion, this is where the all-in-one instrument rules.

Yeah, but you're comparing a DP to a VST. All DPs pretty much rule there.

Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
The acoustic pianos are incredible....this is an instrument that must be played to be appreciated. The Rhodes pianos were, combined with the great keyboard, like playing a perfectly set up Rhodes.

Too bad the sample set is so small. I predict the normal DP burnout will happen to some owners.

Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
If they put this sound engine in a Clavinova home piano, they will have another winner on their hands.

If the CLP-330 is any indication, the Clavinova line is in desperate need of serious attention.

Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
I'm going to try out a Roland HP-307 this afternoon, and this evening, I'll get to try an RD-700 with the Supernatural piano, as the Roland rep just happens to be doing a clinic at the local music store.
...
Hopefully the Roland instruments will measure up to the hype the same as the Yamaha.

Yamaha hyped the heck out of the latest CPs. Their Yamaha's "Spectral Component Modeling" boils down to the regulation tiny sample set, with blended velocity samples and well done looping samples (for small loop samples that is), modeled in-line effects, and some stretching thrown in - i.e. a slightly newish spin (for DPs - modeled electric guitar effects have been around forever) on really ancient stuff.

However, I'm not sure I would call what Roland is doing with their SuperNATURAL piano technology "hype". Roland technically accomplished what they claimed to have done in their videos and brochures. They can talk the talk and walk the walk.
Posted By: FogVilleLad Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/03/10 07:36 PM
Originally Posted by dewster
Yamaha's "Spectral Component Modeling" boils down to the regulation tiny sample set, with blended velocity samples and well done looping samples (for small loop samples that is), modeled in-line effects, and some stretching thrown in - i.e. a slightly newish spin on really ancient stuff.

Roland technically accomplished what they claimed to have done in their videos and brochures.
IMO it all comes down to how the pianos sound. I think you posted earlier re not equating your test results with what reaches the player's ears.

Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/03/10 08:03 PM
Originally Posted by FogVilleLad
IMO it all comes down to how the pianos sound. I think you posted earlier re not equating your test results with what reaches the player's ears.

Does the CP1 CFIII voice sound good? Yes, better than one would expect considering the small size of the sample set. It's quite an achievement to shoehorn that nice sound into such a tiny, inexpensive bit of ROM (my rough guess is around $0.25 USD). Impressive, but unnecessary and actually rather tragic with Flash so cheap.

Is it noticeably looped? If you pitted it against a real piano I think you might be able to tell the difference, the decay is looped after all.

Is it stretched? Yes, definitely. Some claim they can hear the stretching (I can) while others claim they can't (Dr P. et al).

Does the fact that it is looped and stretched really matter if you can't normally hear either, and it sounds good when you play it? I would argue that they do, particularly in the long-term. When you remove any of the realistic variation of the sample set in order to cram it into a microscopic ROM, as these techniques unquestionably do, you set the stage for listener fatigue down the road. At which point the professionals are able to dump it and move on to the next big thing, while the rest of us are left with buyer's remorse.

Is the CP line a bust? Heck no, the CP50 should blow the P-155 and any other DP in that price range out of the water. And for the wood-keyboard-or-die crowd the CP5 looks like a deal. But the CP1 is really weird: no extra sounds, real but lobotomized FM, sky-high price, etc.
Posted By: sullivang Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/03/10 10:05 PM
Originally Posted by dewster
Is it noticeably looped? If you pitted it against a real piano I think you might be able to tell the difference, the decay is looped after all.


Yes, it is noticably looped - I immediately pointed out that I could hear looping in the video clips & demo recordings, even before you began this testing. After playing Pianoteq and sample libraries that have full-length samples, this deficiency becomes very obvious. I cannot hear the very bad/obvious type of looping where you can hear a repetitive "warble", but I can hear that the sound stops evolving in a natural manner - it sounds too static. I didn't notice any stretching in the demos though.

Greg
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/04/10 12:07 AM
Originally Posted by sullivang
Yes, it is noticably looped - I immediately pointed out that I could hear looping in the video clips & demo recordings, even before you began this testing.

Wow you have some good ears!
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/04/10 12:10 AM
Didn't get to play the RD-700 with Supernatural; maybe tomorrow morning.

I did play the HP-307...not bad. Still that characteristic thinness in the midrange, but less than the V-Piano, and much less than other HP's.

The action was nice, very nice actually, but I didn't like the ivory feel at all...so sounds and touch were a little disappointing considering all the hype that was posted here and elswhere, but, again, piano sounds and playing feel will always be personal and subjective.

I did notice one of the keys was clicking a bit...the "D" above middle "C"...might have been because it was a demo, but disconcerting nevertheless.


If the RD with SN sounds like the HP-307, then my choices will then be narrowed down to the CP-1 and CP-5, the latter I hope to try here some time late in April, on my next trip, if not before.

I'm convinced the CP-1's action is perfect for a stage piano...not at all a compromise, and the lack of graded touch is far more of an advantage than any sort of disadvantage.

Snazzy

Posted By: sullivang Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/04/10 12:21 AM
Originally Posted by dewster

Wow you have some good ears!


Thanks. In fairness, though, I should also mention that I have dabbled in sampling, and I'm also a technical person. I've also been following the technology for decades. So, I'm sure I listen in a way that is not typical of the general public. ;^)

Greg.
p.s I have fond memories of discussing digital pianos on a corporate network when I probably ought to have been working - does the word "COMMUSIC" mean anything to anyone here? ;^)
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/04/10 03:19 AM
Check the SN RD700 for a slightly synthetic sound above middle C on the main voice. The others are much better. I think the SN RD700 is neck and neck with the CP5 for piano's but the CP5 has the nice motif voices in it for the strings etc


Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
Didn't get to play the RD-700 with Supernatural; maybe tomorrow morning.


Snazzy

Posted By: Peakly Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/04/10 07:14 AM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
CP5 has the nice motif voices in it for the strings etc


So then the extra sounds in the CP5 are clearly superior to the CP-300?

Mychal
Posted By: madshi Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/04/10 07:57 AM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
I think the SN RD700 is neck and neck with the CP5 for piano's

I'm slightly confused. I thought you said earlier that you liked the CP1 APs better than the SN RD700? Now you say the CP5 APs are neck and neck with the SN RD700? Does that mean that you find the CP1 noticeably better than the CP5? According to a Yamaha guy (from another forum), the CP1 and CP5 APs should sound pretty much the same. Ok, so you have a two band or three band equalizer ("pre-amplifier simulation") on the CP1 which is missing on the CP5. But that's (supposedly) the only difference between CP1 and CP5 in terms of AP sounds...

Thanks...
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/04/10 08:58 AM
Originally Posted by Peakly
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
CP5 has the nice motif voices in it for the strings etc


So then the extra sounds in the CP5 are clearly superior to the CP-300?

Mychal


Oh god yes ...by miles
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/04/10 09:02 AM
Originally Posted by madshi
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
I think the SN RD700 is neck and neck with the CP5 for piano's

I'm slightly confused. I thought you said earlier that you liked the CP1 APs better than the SN RD700? Now you say the CP5 APs are neck and neck with the SN RD700? Does that mean that you find the CP1 noticeably better than the CP5? According to a Yamaha guy (from another forum), the CP1 and CP5 APs should sound pretty much the same. Ok, so you have a two band or three band equalizer ("pre-amplifier simulation") on the CP1 which is missing on the CP5. But that's (supposedly) the only difference between CP1 and CP5 in terms of AP sounds...

Thanks...


CP1 is better then the CP5 for AP's and EP's without a doubt but they are close. The SN RD700's is very close to the CP5 with the exception of some synthetic sounding keys in the upper range. Where the CP5 kill's the Rd is in the other sounds (EP's, Strings, PADS etc etc) and the user interface. It is was purely AP sounds then SN RD700 is very close to the CP5 but of course its not a Yamaha in the RD700 so it doesn't have the Yamaha acoustic sound I prefer.

Posted By: theJourney Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/04/10 09:22 AM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper

CP1 is better then the CP5 for AP's and EP's without a doubt but they are close. The SN RD700's is very close to the CP5 with the exception of some synthetic sounding keys in the upper range. Where the CP5 kill's the Rd is in the other sounds (EP's, Strings, PADS etc etc) and the user interface. It is was purely AP sounds then SN RD700 is very close to the CP5 but of course its not a Yamaha in the RD700 so it doesn't have the Yamaha acoustic sound I prefer.



Interesting turn of phrase, and an important piece of information for those of us considering a CP1 above a CP5.

In what way are you hearing a difference on the those same acoustic piano sounds featured between the CP1 and CP5 making the CP1 "without a doubt better, but close" as compared to the CP5?
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/04/10 10:51 AM
Originally Posted by theJourney


Interesting turn of phrase, and an important piece of information for those of us considering a CP1 above a CP5.

In what way are you hearing a difference on the those same acoustic piano sounds featured between the CP1 and CP5 making the CP1 "without a doubt better, but close" as compared to the CP5?


I describe the CP1 as having a slightly deeper richness of tone in both the S6 and CFIII samples that is more appealing to my ear on a raw level then the CP5. I'd suggest it has additional layers of processing that add this depth. But its incremental at best and is actually more evident on the EP patches. I'm beginning to find it strange that the CP1 is lacking the strings and pads of its little brother as when I'm tending to do is set up a master performance that grabs the strings or pads from the S90XS to achieve the results I'm looking for.
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/04/10 02:09 PM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Check the SN RD700 for a slightly synthetic sound above middle C on the main voice. The others are much better. I think the SN RD700 is neck and neck with the CP5 for piano's but the CP5 has the nice motif voices in it for the strings etc


Yep...the HP-307 is very similar.

The keys on the RD were in better shape than the HP...no clicking and the action was tighter...still, it makes one wonder what effect long term use would have...it's strange, my nearly 20 year old HP-1700 has been played quite a lot, and yet the old SK-6 action is still smooth and pretty quiet as well.

Doc,I would say without a doubt, the CP-1's acoustic pianos are far more robust than either Roland...I would almost say, more "musical"...more expressive. I really understand why you and Lawrence were so taken with the instrument...the keys and the sound have an "intimate" connection...the instrument invites you to keep playing....pretty amazing.

It's not a sound that tires the ears...you just want to keep playing it.

Well, that takes the two Roland pianos out of the running, and now it's just a matter of getting some quality time on a CP-5 before I make the decision.

Heading back to "Earth" later this evening.

Snazzy
Posted By: bkmz Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/04/10 02:19 PM
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
I played a Yamaha CP-1 last night at a friend's place.


Snazzy, I see a problem with your review. Before your (very subjective) test was even started, you had already formed an opinion on CP1, which you expressed in several posts on this forum.
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/04/10 04:10 PM
Originally Posted by bkmz
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
I played a Yamaha CP-1 last night at a friend's place.


Snazzy, I see a problem with your review. Before your (very subjective) test was even started, you had already formed an opinion on CP1, which you expressed in several posts on this forum.


It would have been a "problem" if the CP-1 had not lived up to my expectations...but it actually surpassed them...there is no substitution for "hands on", and if I was disappointed, I would have had no problem making it known.

I was hoping the Roland pianos matched my expectations as well, as it appeared the thin synthetic mids in the V-Piano may have been solved with the addition of SuperNatural...well, it wasn't "Super" and it didn't sound all that "Natural".

It's hard to have zero preconceived expectations and opinons with all the talk that goes on on this forum, but I must say, Doc and Lawrence were totally accurate in their "reviews" of the CP-1, and, if anything, they were a tad understated.

The user interface on the CP-1 was about as intuitive as one could hope for, and again, the action was very imptressive...I always had the feeling I was connected intimately with whatever sound I selected.

Am I glad I liked the Yamaha more? Of course...it's a good strong company, and my dealings with them over the years have always been positive.

I got the feeling that the SuperNatural addition to the Roland, was a "patch" to try and fix the thin mids.

I felt Yamaha's CP-1's new keyboard and tone generator were made as an integral system.

Snazzy




Posted By: madshi Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/04/10 05:02 PM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
I describe the CP1 as having a slightly deeper richness of tone in both the S6 and CFIII samples that is more appealing to my ear on a raw level then the CP5. I'd suggest it has additional layers of processing that add this depth. But its incremental at best and is actually more evident on the EP patches.

Did you have time to play with the CP1 and CP5 controls? Obviously the CP1 is a bit different to the CP5 and so it's understandable that they sound slightly different out of the box. But maybe it's possible to match the CP1 sound by playing around with the CP5 settings? Maybe it's even possible to improve the CP1 sound somewhat by modifying the settings a bit? (E.g. it seems that many people prefer CIII with hammers set one notch softer).

With the EPs do you mean the Rhodes or the DX7 sounds? The CP1 should be very much superior on the DX7 sounds (CP1 = FM; CP5 = sampling). But I thought the Rhodes would be pretty much the same between CP1 and CP5?

Originally Posted by Dr Popper
I'm beginning to find it strange that the CP1 is lacking the strings and pads of its little brother as when I'm tending to do is set up a master performance that grabs the strings or pads from the S90XS to achieve the results I'm looking for.

That's the one big thing that turned me off from the get go. Stupid move by Yamaha IMHO. If the CP1 had had strings/pads, I might have (test played and then) bought it. The way it's right now, the CP1 is no go for me. For that kinda money it should be feature complete and not require any external MIDI expanders...
Posted By: bkmz Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/04/10 05:54 PM
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
Originally Posted by bkmz

Snazzy, I see a problem with your review. Before your (very subjective) test was even started, you had already formed an opinion on CP1, which you expressed in several posts on this forum.


It would have been a "problem" if the CP-1 had not lived up to my expectations...


I was saying that you're highly biased and it's not a problem for you, but rather for those who will read your review.

Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
and my dealings with them over the years have always been positive.


Hm, that makes you even more biased.


And actually my comment was a reminder of this post of yours. Please don't pretend you haven't uderstood.
Posted By: jmmec Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/04/10 06:04 PM
Be careful, bkmz, Colleen/Snazzy is moments away from demonstrating that "heck has no wrath like a woman scorned".
Posted By: theJourney Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/04/10 07:45 PM
LOL
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/04/10 08:08 PM
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
I was hoping the Roland pianos matched my expectations as well, as it appeared the thin synthetic mids in the V-Piano may have been solved with the addition of SuperNatural...well, it wasn't "Super" and it didn't sound all that "Natural".

I'm almost to the point where I'd accept something that sounds unnatural, if only as a respite from all the lifeless looping and stretching going on.

Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
I got the feeling that the SuperNatural addition to the Roland, was a "patch" to try and fix the thin mids.

I've tested two stock SX AP pianos as well as the GX AP expansion and the HP-307. Whether you prefer the sound or not, the SuperNatural AP is technically a rather large step forward, and I see it is a positive thing that Roland offers the expansion card for the GX. From purely a sound perspective, it breathes new life into it, and rounds out the stock SuperNATURAL EPs in there.
Posted By: EssBrace Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/04/10 08:38 PM
Hi All,

V-Piano swapped today with RD-700GX with Supernatural upgrade...been playing it all afternoon. I like it very much indeed. I hate to say this because of the many many good things it does so very well but I'm very relieved to no longer be a V-Piano owner. I think the RD with SN upgrade is fantastic, lots of harmonics and resonance and a really natural (to my ears) and long note decay. Switching back to the stock sounds is very revealing after a while and they are one dimensional by comparison. I hear none of the "synthetic" mids that others are on about although my favourite of the SN pianos is not the power-up voice, it is actually Grand Piano 4.

Dr Popper and Snazzy are self-confessed Yamaha fans and are used to the Yamaha sound so perhaps the Roland character sounds a bit alien to them, who knows?

I'm happy anyway!

Cheers,

Steve
Posted By: BazC Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/04/10 08:43 PM
Congrats sounds gorgeous! Any chance you could record something slow so we can hear it properly?
Posted By: EssBrace Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/04/10 08:45 PM
I'll see what I can do!

Steve
Posted By: BazC Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/04/10 08:59 PM
Ta! smile
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/04/10 09:03 PM
Originally Posted by EssBrace
I think the RD with SN upgrade is fantastic, lots of harmonics and resonance and a really natural (to my ears) and long note decay. Switching back to the stock sounds is very revealing after a while and they are one dimensional by comparison.

Congratulations! They test like night and day too. The decays in the SN sound pretty realistic to me. The stock APs don't sound that good to me, they don't have much if any stretching though.

How about the harpsichord samples? They sound really loopy to me in the HP-307 video, wondering if the voice is the same and how well it's done.

What do you think of the EPs? Strings? Church organs?

If you can crack the nut as to why there aren't any audible key up or pedal sounds via MIDI playback, that would be welcomed info.
Posted By: EssBrace Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/04/10 09:31 PM
I'll have a play with it. I've just skimmed through the non-AP sounds so far. In general I think they are ok, couple of the string sounds are nice. I've never used organ sounds so really shouldn't comment. EPs are surprisingly noisy but they are modelling vintage amps and tremelos etc and I guess that's where the noise comes from. They probably need a fair bit of tweaking and they could be very nice. Harpsichord seems ok but nowhere near as good as Yamaha. In fact many of the sounds on my Clavinova are pretty good. In terms of orchestral sounds I would put Yamaha well ahead of Roland actually based on my experience with my CVP Yamaha and this RD.

But pianos are another matter. The Clavinova (4 level dynamic sampling etc) is awful. Not in the way it sounds...Despite the looping and the rest of it I like the sound of it but playing it after being used to the response of the V-Piano is like flogging a dead horse...it just doesn't respond. So I'm getting rid of the Yamaha and bought a Roland HP-307 with the rest of my shop credit from the V-Piano. I wouldn't have chosen an all Roland set-up to be honest as it is nice to have the alternative character of another manufacturer's products and I had my heart set on a CP5 actually but with the Clavinova almost unplayable to me these days it has to go.

CP5 next year maybe or who knows what might be about.

As an aside the shop had three KORG pianos including a SV-1...I don't want to cause offence but they look like toys. Three different models and they all had uneven gaps between the piano keys...really looked cheap and nasty things. Had a fiddle with the RD-300GX...horrible action. Yamaha CP-33 looked very good value though...arrival of CP50 will drive the price down further I suppose.

Cheers,

Steve
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/04/10 09:44 PM
Originally Posted by EssBrace
Harpsichord seems ok but nowhere near as good as Yamaha.

Drat.

We need boards that are blank slates, just waiting for our favorite 20 or so voices to be downloaded into them. This taking the bad with the good, for better or for worse, is a bit too close to entering into marriage.
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/04/10 10:28 PM
Originally Posted by EssBrace
Hi All,



Dr Popper and Snazzy are self-confessed Yamaha fans and are used to the Yamaha sound so perhaps the Roland character sounds a bit alien to them, who knows?



Oh I have Roland's too including a RD700GX with SN upgrade but its true that I like the bright Yamaha Acoustic piano sound best so I guess its natural that I gravitate towards DP's based on Yamaha samples.
Posted By: EssBrace Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/05/10 12:27 AM
Yeah I fully understand but I think the SN RD is actually quite bright; brighter than the stock sounds and brighter than the average Roland. Roland sample Steinway I believe. It's interesting that because Yamaha have such huge market penetration I think our ears are becoming slightly re-educated towards the Yamaha sound, which I always find clear, bright and powerful throughout the entire range. The soft CF on the CP1 that I've heard is truly delightful and has more subtlety than Yamahas I've heard before but in general I find the Roland just slightly more characterful. Sometimes it's the imperfections that give the sound a likeable signature.

Steve
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/05/10 01:19 AM
Originally Posted by bkmz


Please don't pretend you haven't uderstood.


Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand. wink

I can't help it if the Dewpster is biased...that's his problem...if you consider me biased, that's your problem, not mine. Tell someone who cares.

Dewpster's ongoing effluent drives you to worship squiggly lines on a screen...you are just a part of the over-analysis cult led by an amateur and very biased tester...you'll have to get yourselves some robes and burn solder, and chant the official mantra given to you by your leader...we'll call you the Sheepsters of The Dewpster. grin

Real musicians. like myself, Steve, Doc Popper and Lawrence and a few others simply sit down and play an instrument to evaluate it...how quaint eh? It must be hard for you to understand how we rely on our senses to evaluate an instrument rather than depend on an amateur's analysis using a machine and possibly inaccurate data.

You know, bkmz, "anal" is the first part of analysis. wink



Snazzy

Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/05/10 01:44 AM
Originally Posted by EssBrace


It's interesting that because Yamaha have such huge market penetration I think our ears are becoming slightly re-educated towards the Yamaha sound, which I always find clear, bright and powerful throughout the entire range. The soft CF on the CP1 that I've heard is truly delightful and has more subtlety than Yamahas I've heard before but in general I find the Roland just slightly more characterful. Sometimes it's the imperfections that give the sound a likeable signature.

Steve


I agree, Steve...the Yamaha piano sound is on a lot of recordings and we tend to identify a bit more with it than when Steinway and Baldwin were the norm.

I thought the SuperNatural was better sounding, out of the box, to my ears than the V-Piano...perhaps, if I had done some tweaking, I might have been able to adjust the mids more to my liking...I didn't have time, and perhaps, my next whack at it will give me a bit more time to fiddle with it.

The V-Piano seemed to defy any attempts at making the mids more robust.

To my ears, Roland has always had thinner mids...even my HP-1700 has them, but the SuperNatural piano was far better than any other Roland I've played.

You do sound very pleased with your choice, and that's the bottom line...congratulations and happy playing.

Snazzy
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/05/10 03:49 AM
Originally Posted by EssBrace
Yeah I fully understand but I think the SN RD is actually quite bright;

Steve



Yeah its brighter then your average Roland for sure ... not as bright as a Yamaha though.

Has anyone realised just how good the CP1's EP's are BTW ???

The CP80 and 88 patches are about as good as it gets ....
Posted By: dewster Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/05/10 04:31 AM
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
Dewpster's ongoing effluent drives you to worship squiggly lines on a screen...you are just a part of the over-analysis cult led by an amateur and very biased tester...you'll have to get yourselves some robes and burn solder, and chant the official mantra given to you by your leader...we'll call you the Sheepsters of The Dewpster. grin

3.) What Is/Isn't Allowed?
We are a family-oriented web site. Please be careful what you post. Keep it clean, refrain from vulgarity or slander.

Do not be mean-spirited or decidely negative.
Posted By: Peakly Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/05/10 07:01 AM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Has anyone realised just how good the CP1's EP's are BTW ???


That's one of the main reasons I can't commit to buying a CP300. The Rhodes sounds in the CP1 and CP5 demos sound better to me than anything I've heard since I had my Rhodes 73 suitcase.

Mychal
Posted By: Peakly Re: Top of CP5 - 03/05/10 09:00 AM
I know someone already said it wouldn't be feasible to put a keyboard on top of the CP5. But what about a very light, small one? If I could figure out a way to set it up there, by making a small stand for it out of something light, would that plastic on top of the CP5 support it?

If you push down on the top of the CP5, does it bend? Or could you, for instance, put a couple of six packs of beer on it without it bending? How much will that top support? I like putting a small keyboard on top of the main one if I can. I can do that with my current Yamaha stage piano, and I know I can do it with the CP 300.

Shoot I wish I could grab one of these and figure out if it will work for me, and if not, move on to the next thing.

Mychal
Posted By: madshi Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/05/10 09:53 AM
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
Dewpster's ongoing effluent drives you to worship squiggly lines on a screen...

Do you think that describing phase/frequency spectrum analyis as "worshipping squiggly lines on a screen" makes your point any stronger? It only makes you look like you don't understand the scientific background of what dewster is doing.

Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
you are just a part of the over-analysis cult led by an amateur and very biased tester...

So technical analysis is cult like and bad? You know, Galileo Galilei was once condemned by the Catholic Church for claiming that the earth wasn't at the center of the universe. Not saying that dewster's technical analysis is anywhere even *remotely* near in importantance to Galileo Galilei's scientific work, of course. But science has been condemned as cult like before. I thought this wouldn't happen today, anymore, but it seems I was wrong...

Dewster is definitely biased. But not for/against specific manufacturers. He's biased against looping and stretching. Saying that his bias is bad is kind of similar to saying that a person's bias against e.g. plastic keys is bad. You are clearly biased, too, btw, namely against technical analysis.

Now if you argue that your subjective impression of actually playing an instrument is much more important to you than technical analysis, then that's just fine with me. I've no problem with that *at all*. And I honestly value your CP1 review/impressions. But are you tolerant enough to let other people have their own opinion about how to evaluate the available instruments? It doesn't seem like that to me, sadly...
Posted By: mucci Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/05/10 10:23 AM
Well, snazzy, that's more than enough now from your side. This ist gettng way too dirty. There is no basis left for any meaningful discussion. Hope some moderator will be helpful and stop this.
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/05/10 11:23 AM
Originally Posted by dewster


We are a family-oriented web site. Please be careful what you post. Keep it clean, refrain from vulgarity or slander.

Do not be mean-spirited or decidely negative.


Yes, like you keep it clean...an excert from a post of yours on the AvantGrand quick first impression thread...

Originally Posted by dewster


[censored] happens.


Certainly my posts are peppered with smileys and never mean spirited....nor do I use foul language, like you have done above.

In another post, same thread, you took the Lord's name in vain...

Originally Posted by dewster


Jesus, it's Adobe Audition, not something I wrote in my basement over a weekend.


Now, I'm not super religious, but I believe that crosses the line, wouldn't you think? grin

Thank you for pointing out the rules....read them yourself while you're at it. wink


Snazzy
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/05/10 11:32 AM
Originally Posted by madshi


Dewster is definitely biased. But not for/against specific manufacturers. He's biased against looping and stretching. Saying that his bias is bad is kind of similar to saying that a person's bias against e.g. plastic keys is bad. You are clearly biased, too, btw, namely against technical analysis.



No, Dewpster is clearly biased against pretty well all digital pianos which he assumes are crap...great fellow to do an objective test. wink

And, by the way, I am not against technical analysis per se...nothing wrong with a professionally done test...I'm just realistically assessing the amateur test being done here that has already been inaccurate several times.

Being biased and being realistic are different, sir, and I am more of the latter than the former.

Snazzy

Posted By: Nachtschatten Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/05/10 11:37 AM
Wow, what a low point in 1.5 years of reading these forums. I've never before read such a pretentious, arrogant post here. These forums are of great value to a lot of people, but some recent threads go down the drain, with personal insults, language etc..

Dewster has been ranting a lot in his early days, but has calmed down a lot and seems really interested in doing a good job. Some people agree with his approach, some don't. OK, that's normal, but he clearly states that this does not replace playing yourself and making up your own mind.

Certainly, people like snazzy, Dr. Popper et al. have very valuable opinions, based on long-term experience, and I read them with great interest (at least, until now). Maybe you play in bands, since a long time. But snazzy, does this make you the only 'real musicians' around here and allow you to denigrate others?

My 2 cents on this debate: there's always a lot of hype about new products. When I started here, it was, e.g. discussions on the speed of repetition from the PHA-II (in the HP-207) vs. NW (Yamaha) keyboards. Then came the V-Piano, and some time later the first negative posts about the mid-range. Now we're at the next step, with the new Yamahas. Probably the future will bring a debate about new CLP's. So, even Gyro has a point comparing DP's to computers, yet with slower development (no, I still don't want a Williams).

Being myself far away from a 'real musician' (but at least, I have good ears or so I'd like to think) I have learned a lot here - especially what to search for and how to test a DP beyond the initial 'do I like the sound & feel' (and also, to go several times to several shops for playing, even if well-informed). When I played DP's myself for the first time, I preferred the Yamaha 'bright' and crisp sound. Playing more over time has brought me to the Roland 'warm' or mellow sound. I've only been able to play Kawai once during a visit to Germany - too short to form an opinion. In the beginning I didn't know anything about stretching, looping, implementation of key-off sounds, string resonance etc. While I still have difficulties to detect the start of a loop, I clearly recognize stretching now. This will probably not impact day-to-day playing very much, but it could impact long-term pleasure (and I'm not someone able to buy a new DP every 1-2 years to have the latest and greatest).

And still, in the end I might end up with a DP with 2 year old technology (the FP-7), just because it also sounds great when put into a good cabinet, and connected with good speakers (see my digitalclassic.nl thread) - owing to my wife's wishes of good looks (pending another visit to dry the RD700GX with the SN expansion).


I like the comparison with digital cameras. Maybe another comparison (from a European perspective): Yamaha doesn't look like the great innovator these days, recent steps came from software pianos, followed by Roland. But Yamaha could be just like Volkswagen: watching for some time how the development goes, and then roll up the market from behind with good and reliable products. VW has waited a long time with common-rail motor technology, and took a long time to get out SUV's. When they finally came with the Touareg and Tiguan, they were still able to overtake the others. Still, I don't have any car myself - it's simply not needed here, public transport (+ bikes!) are sufficient, and renting a car for the few occasions one is needed is really sufficient.


There once was a sticky with excellent (newbie) advice on DP shopping. Could it be put back?

Btw: I have no affiliation with any company / shop / any side of the discussion here etc., just my (humble) opinions.
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/05/10 11:47 AM
Originally Posted by madshi
Do you think that describing phase/frequency spectrum analyis as "worshipping squiggly lines on a screen" makes your point any stronger? It only makes you look like you don't understand the scientific background of what dewster is doing.



I do understand the scientific background of this type of test...that's easy...but what I don't agree with, is that it has the distinct possibility of errors, and that it may influence a first time visitor not to try a specific product...one that may prove to sound perfect to their ears, one they would miss out on, as well as the manufacturer losing a customer. shocked

I also think that you using the word "scientific" to describe a test done by a clearly, and self admitted, biased amateur individual is a hoot. grin

The tester, in this case, is akin to the vegetarian who eats veggies, not because they love animals, but because they hate vegetables. wink

Snazzy
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/05/10 11:57 AM
Originally Posted by Nachtschatten


Certainly, people like snazzy, Dr. Popper et al. have very valuable opinions, based on long-term experience, and I read them with great interest (at least, until now). Maybe you play in bands, since a long time. But snazzy, does this make you the only 'real musicians' around here and allow you to denigrate others?



Well sir, anyone putting that much faith in an amateur test is hardly what I would call a real musician...that's my opinion.

BTW, for those clinging to the squiggly lines on the screen, "denigrate" means..."Cause to seem less serious; play down". wink

Snazzy


Posted By: mucci Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/05/10 11:57 AM
@Nachtschatten, thank you so much for your very balanced comment! That should be the spirit of all the postings here, and we should handle different opinions here with all due respect which they really deserve.

And as I said, I no longer comment on any of snazzy's and alike posts, as this is like talking to an (IMHO very unpolite) answering machine... my time is too precious for wasting it.
Posted By: mucci Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/05/10 12:03 PM
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
Originally Posted by madshi
Do you think that describing phase/frequency spectrum analyis as "worshipping squiggly lines on a screen" makes your point any stronger? It only makes you look like you don't understand the scientific background of what dewster is doing.



I do understand the scientific background of this type of test...that's easy...but what I don't agree with, is that it has the distinct possibility of errors, and that it may influence a first time visitor not to try a specific product...one that may prove to sound perfect to their ears, one they would miss out on, as well as the manufacturer losing a customer. shocked

I also think that you using the word "scientific" to describe a test done by a clearly, and self admitted, biased amateur individual is a hoot. grin

The tester, in this case, is akin to the vegetarian who eats veggies, not because they love animals, but because they hate vegetables. wink

Snazzy


self-repetitive, answering machine like BS.
Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/05/10 12:06 PM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper


Has anyone realised just how good the CP1's EP's are BTW ???

The CP80 and 88 patches are about as good as it gets ....


The Rhodes is excellent, and having owned a CP-80 for many years, the CP-1's emulation is astonishing.

My favorites are still the acoustic pianos.

The action seemed to change to suit each patch...I know it doesn't physically adjust, but the illusion is uncanny.

I'm really looking forward to the CP-5 and the new alternate sounds....what's the Hammond emulation like, Doc?

Snazzy

Posted By: snazzyplayer Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/05/10 12:15 PM
Originally Posted by kawaian
#1388676 - 03/05/10 07:57 AM

And as I said, I no longer comment on any of snazzy's and alike posts, as this is like talking to an (IMHO very unpolite) answering machine... my time is too precious for wasting it.




Mmmmm...but not "precious" enough to break your own rules? wink

Originally Posted by kawaian
#1388681 - 03/05/10 08:03 AM


self-repetitive, answering machine like BS.


And of course, you're not being repetitive? confused

You are too funny...thanks for the chuckle. grin

Snazzy
Posted By: madshi Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/05/10 12:57 PM
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
No, Dewpster is clearly biased against pretty well all digital pianos which he assumes are crap...great fellow to do an objective test. wink

You're reducing him to be nothing but a DP hater. I think that's not a fair interpretation of his point of view. He's a hater of stretching and looping. And I happen to agree with him in that aspect. In case you didn't notice, the Roland HP307 does pretty well in his test. So there goes your idea of him hating all DPs.

Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
And, by the way, I am not against technical analysis per se...nothing wrong with a professionally done test...I'm just realistically assessing the amateur test being done here that has already been inaccurate several times.

Ok, then please enlighten me:

(1) Where exactly has the technical analysis been "inaccurate several times"? Please let me know, I really want to know!

(2) What does it matter if it's done by an amateur or a professional? I my experience often enough so-called amateurs are doing a better job than many professionals. I've stopped buying certain print magazines a long time ago, because the so-called professional reviewers are often doing a worse job than many so-called amateurs who sometimes write very fine online reviews. You should judge based on the methology of the analysis, not based on by whom it's done.

Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
what I don't agree with, is that it has the distinct possibility of errors

As has everything done by human beings - including subjective reviews.

Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
and that it may influence a first time visitor not to try a specific product...one that may prove to sound perfect to their ears, one they would miss out on, as well as the manufacturer losing a customer. shocked

That's the same old knockout argument as always. Do you also think that car reviews should leave out engine measurements, because some people might be stupid enough to buy a car only based on engine specs? Do you think AV processor reviews should leave out Watts measurements because some people might be stupid enough to buy a processor only based on how many Watts it can output?

Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
The tester, in this case, is akin to the vegetarian who eats veggies, not because they love animals, but because they hate vegetables. wink

Once again you're misinterpreting dewster's position. He *wants* to love DPs. He just hates the way most current DPs are built, technically. There's quite a difference. And, as said above, he does like the technical implementation of the HP307's sound engine. So please do yourself a favor, and stop reducing dewster to a one-dimensional DP hater.
Posted By: mucci Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/05/10 01:19 PM
I would suggest to stop this discussion right away. There is nothing more to add to it. This thread is about the new Yamaha stage pianos, and it should stay on-topic.

If someone wants to continue with this fruitless discussion, one can start a new thread with a heading like: "Is dewster a biased amateur using untested software with possibly inaccurate data?"
Posted By: jve Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/05/10 01:22 PM
Hi,

It's been several weeks now since I played the CP1 for the first time at a local distributor. I wrote most of the text below back then, but didn't find the time to finish it until now.

In addition to the CP1, the shop also had a V-Piano, AvantGrand N2 and a Modus F01. The CP1 was the one I spent most time with, almost two hours. The others I played only briefly since I've tried them before. They were also unpacking a Roland HP-307, but didn't get to play that.

The first thing that strikes you about the CP1 is the lightness of the action -- very smooth and responsive. When shopping for a DP I don't necessarily look for an action that immediately feels familiar. A good action to me is one that I feel I will be able to adjust to during a reasonably short period of time. The CP1 action has that "confidence factor".

Now for the sound -- and I've got to say I'm rather demanding in this department, I've developed somewhat of an aversion to sampling artifacts over the years. Oddly enough, I don't mind a little digital-ness here and there when listening to recordings of digital instruments, but when I play a DP myself, I just find any artifacts incredibly off-putting. Almost as if my playing wasn't being taken seriously.

For analytic listening tests I tend to divide the sound of a playing note into three sections -- percussive attack, early sustain, and final decay. The attack portion is often well captured on modern DPs, so is the final decay as long as it isn't implemented as a static single-cycle oscillator. The intermediate section is, however, where much of the tonal character of a piano lies, and unfortunately also where most DP manufacturers make compromises. You need lots of sampling memory to capture the harmonic motion and detuning that occurs during the early sustain stage, so what DP manufacturers tend to do is that they either omit this stage altogether, or apply time compression so that they can go into the less demanding final decay at an earlier point, thus saving on sample storage. The former leads to a dull and characterless sound, the latter to a too percussive, almost typewriter-like sound.

Back to the CP1 and its main acoustic sound, the CFIIIS. I liked this very much. In fact, this was so much fun to play I didn't even bother to go into "analysis mode" for a while. This is the Yamaha acoustic piano tone at its best, lots of clarity and definition, but still with a nicely rounded body. The S6 is equally impressive, featuring a warmer overall tone, although with slight nasality in the lower mids that I find very attractive.

As far as authenticity is concerned, the CP1 acoustics score high, IMO. There are some digital artifacts here and there (see below), but you mostly have to look for them to hear them. My guess is that the basic acoustic piano tone is sample based, and they then use additional signal generation/processing techniques for enhancement. For instance, the critical early sustain portion sounds like samples overlayed with synthesized harmonics. The beauty of this implementation is that there is no detectable velocity switching. The tone is lush and vibrant, and the playing response smooth and continuous. I'd imagine this hybrid technology also allowed Yamaha to include adjustable features such as hammer hardness. Well done!

The final decay surprised me a bit though, as it has a static, metallic quality that I immediately associate with the Modus series digital pianos. The Modus pianos use sampling technology that is several generations old, although the sampling itself is reportedly more advanced than that in the current Clavinovas. In the CP1 the note decay is apparently processed with diffusion effects -- the same technique you use to simulate the reverb part of string resonance effects. Whether the effect is there to mask sample looping I'm not sure. The effect also seems more prominent on the S6 than the CFIIIS. Overall, the final decay characteristic is perhaps the weakest point of the CP1 in terms of authenticity, although not nearly as digital sounding as the Modus series, or many newer DPs for that matter. It's not a big deal, unless 100% authenticity under all circumstances is what you're after.

The CP80 Electric Grand is good, the best yet in a digital instrument. I still own a CP70 which I'm quite fond of and regularly play. It has to be said that the CP80 patch is often a mixed bag in DPs -- it's invariably a secondary sound, so to speak -- one that gets less sample memory and less attention from engineers, and mostly ends up sounding rather horrible. The one in the CP1 is refreshingly different, as it features the same kind of playability that the acoustic grands have. The low notes are spot on, exactly like the real thing. In the mid and upper note ranges, however, Yamaha seem to have gone a little too far with modelling. There are some very bright metallic sounding harmonics coming through, harmonics that I only hear a hint of in my CP70, even with the Treble control set to maximum (which is my default setting). I tried tweaking the CP1's EQ and other controls, but could not defeat the metallic quality. Shame, because to me this almost spoils an otherwise promising sound.

At this point I found I was running out of time, so I didn't audition the other electric piano sounds. Will try them next time I get a chance to play the instrument.

In conclusion, the CP1 is a very impressive piano type instrument. It's not necessarily the most authentic acoustic piano replacement -- definitely no AvantGrand killer -- but feels great to play, and is capable of producing lush, shimmering sounds.

Here are some brief comments on the other instruments I played that day:

V-Piano: Still one of the most responsive DPs, but sounds a bit academic. The variabilty of sound is attractive, but I prefer the tone and overall feel of the CP1.

Modus F01: Very firm and stylish (looks better in real life than on pictures), no distracting big displays or arrays of buttons. More expressive and fun to play than the Clavinovas, but the underlying technology is really starting to show its age.

AvantGrand N2: Can only echo what others have said: The most authentic digital yet. Apparently many serious keyboardists now tour with an N2, so maybe there will be a portable version (N1?) available at some point. Although that would of course be treading into CP1 territory!

-joachim

Posted By: mucci Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! - 03/05/10 01:42 PM
Joachim, what a great review! BTW I reach out to the local piano store today to play some DPs including the CP1. Sounds promising. I won't buy anything but I want to be up to date what's on the market.