my friend wants to start playing the piano. which do you recommend? I can read that kawai has a better action. Is it true?

Two of my more experienced piano students just shopped this segment. One bought a Roland FP30 and the other bought a Kawai ES110. Neither seemed impressed with the P125.

FP30 = unnaturally heavy action.

If you're thinking of going in this direction, you'll need to spend some time at the store with it, to feel it out.

It's almost certainly inappropriate for novices going into piano. Piano is not weight lifting. An unnaturally resistant action won't make you stronger. Too much weight increases the odds of developing Repetitive stress injury or improper technique. In fact you need to be extremely experienced to DEAL WITH heavier actions, or risk injury.

In general ES110 is the safer action to start with.

To clarify, FP30 is NOT good for more experienced players either. The vast majority of people who've tried it at length will tell you, it's exhausting to play.

Grand piano actions are about the same starting weight, but as it goes down, the resistance abates, and the key feels like it's falling on its own.

Not true on an FP30, it's Heavy at the top, and you feel like you're fighting a spring the entire way down. <it's not a spring> but a poorly designed lever.

To the OP:

Jeffcat has a strong opinion on this question. But there are a fair number of people here, who have FP-30's, and are happy with them.

IMHO, for a beginning pianist, any of the P-125 / FP-30 / ES-110 will work fine.

+1

I've played both the ES110 and P125 quite a bit, and I've test drove the FP30. I think a beginner would be fine with any of them since they haven't developed their own preference yet for touch or sound. Personally in terms of touch I'd put the ES110 and FP30 about even and would prefer both over the P125. I use a vst so don't have an opinion on builtin sounds.

Congratulations, you found the design limitation of any folded hammer action: no hammer escapement, no damper weight lifting


That's why a beginner needs to start on a real acoustic piano. This is how it used to be and pianists switched to stage pianos when they started gigging, not the other way around.

Digital pianos are not for beginners.

Correct, but you're not going to find a perfect action in a USD $500 instrument.

Furthermore, it's not simply a heavy action - the main problem is that the weight grading in uneven:

From A0 to about C3 all the keys are about the exact same weight (heavy), and then in the treble they become lighter and lighter. This is a common flaw with many Roland key actions. Acoustic, Yamaha digitals, and Kawai digitals do not suffer from this major flaw.

Note that the P-125 has it's own unique design flaw:
The weight of the ebony keys are not graded at all, whereas the ivory keys are graded nicely. However this flaw is far less noticeable (and until I pointed it out, probably undocumented!).

So, if the only thing you can afford is a digital piano, just give up playing any at all. Either you get the real deal or its closest (hybrids) or go playing ukelele.

Digital piano's are fine for beginners, and for more experienced players as well. In fact they are great.

If it wasn't for a digital I wouldn't have started playing piano at all, and I wouldn't have my acoustic piano now. And I'm very happy that I did start playing.

Sure going from my first digital to an acoustic took some adjustment, but other than that it's fine.

Sure a Steinway D in a privately owned concert hall is always best, but common... not everyone has the option to start with an acoustic...

Some people should maybe stop stating their strong opinions as facts, it can be misleading and demotivating to a beginner.

In fact my digital piano is still my most important piano as it gets the most use. Since I live in a townhouse I practice on it, and only use my acoustic to play pieces I can already play well.

Also, if you are planning to use p-125 with your PC, like with pianoteq, it is not a good idea. The very low and very high velocity values are missing.

I like quality construccion p125. It should has a better accion

Exactly!!! I bolded the main points of your post, emphasing what is the most important and what motivated my previous post.

It is OK stating ones opinions, but IMO, some of them should be refrained from being given for being a deservice to everybody.

I think I can afford one of those (so-called) hybrids.And that's quite fortunate, because I've been quite unsuccessful trying to find a digital ukelele.

Sure, but not those sub $1000 toys mentioned on the thread title. Compared to real pianos, these are awful, not "great".


Because "acoustic piano" only means "Steinway D in a privately owned concert hall".


If a forum post already demotivates you, you won't get far on any instrument. And no, you don't learn piano by using an app. Just to get that out of the way as well.

IMO, even the sound coming out from the AvantGrand cannot be compared to the lowest end of upright pianos from Yamaha and Kawai. It's a shame these acoustics are not something I can play at midnight and beyond without being a nuisance.

Nice find, KJ. If that's available at retail then I won't need to buy an NV10!

Damn, there goes my commission!

(joke)

Wait ... aren't **you** the ukelele salesman?I'm going to kj.com right now. I hope you offer free shipping.

As I've mentioned in other threads, broaden your choices and don't just follow the "herd" because Yamaha and Kawai are the top mentioned brands on this forum. In this price range, you can often find great cost-effective pianos from other brands like Roland, Casio and Korg.

Have you checked the PianoDreamers website? They have some good fair reviews for the pianos in this price range.

That only shows how good those low-end upright pianos have become.


Well, that's true with any acoustic instrument.

It's also a cultural thing: In America we have people converting saloon grands into digital pianos to jazz around (the only thing digital pianos are really good for), while in Asia we have people cramming a baby grand into the smallest apartment, so they can get some classical practice in while at home.

Europe is somewhere in the middle with upright pianos being most popular.

Space is cheaper in America -relative to income-.

Cramming big pianos into small apartments isn't the culture, it's due to limited options.

The other huge problem like in China, Everything is concrete. And people love tile flooring. Honestly, Pianos in most homes in this country sound awful.

I think you misunderstood my post. The culture influences what music is being played and that affects choice of instrument without actually taking living space into account. It's quite the opposite.

Your friend should just get whatever he / she likes the best - IMO they are all pretty much comparable.
If your friend wants to use computer / ipad software for learning then the P-125 has a very convenient feature - it has a built in audio interface so the sound from the ipad or computer can easily be routed through the piano - this is somewhat rare in digital pianos outside of Yamahas range.

I currently have a P125 in my office and a lovely old acoustic at home. The P125 is fine for what it is and would have suited me very well for my first year of playing. The build quaility seem very good and the sounds are well above average in my experience - at least through headphones which is all I use at the office.

Android tablets/phones now also work fine with Smart Pianist (previously it only supported iOS).

That problem is common to lots of DP's, from all makers.

Pianoteq lets you set up a "velocity curve", to compensate for the missing high and low "MIDI velocity" values. There's a whole section of the Pianoteq user forum devoted to that issue.

My PX-350 has the same issue; a custom velocity curve (in Pianoteq) corrects it nicely.

Another opinion, stated as a fact.

Of course you can learn piano by using an app. You can even learn without an app, I did. It all depends on your goal. Is your goal to be professional? In that case you're probably right, and you can't do without a teacher

Here's how far I got in a couple of years without a teacher, without an app, without learning to read scores. Just me and youtube, and mostly a (not too great) digital piano, a Yamaha cp33:

https://vimeo.com/437594050

It is my first performance in front of people ever. Of course I understand, someone that learned piano the traditional way probably immediatly spots all the bad technique I'm using. (please keep in mind I was very nervous and also never touched that Steinway before as well). But my point is, you can learn to play piano, however you like to do it.

Don't get me wrong. I do think the traditional way (teacher from the start etc.) Is probably best by far, but people might want to do it their own way for all kinds of reasons. I have noticed some people that are of the traditional ways seem to have some problems with accepting that.

Because it is a fact.


No.


Indeed, you didn't learn to play piano. Anyone can hit keys on a Steinway. And some people can do it properly. The latter learned to play piano. By definition.

ok, JoeT.

I guess anyone can hit keys on a Steinway..

Actually I don't really let myself get into negative discussion normally, but you truly seem to mistake your opinions for facts every time you post something, and like I said I think this can be misleading for beginners, newcomers etc. That's my issue with these posts.

You don't hold the absolute truth JoeT, I don't either, let our opinions be just that, opinions.

I think you're being way out of line, JoeT.

@U3piano: I saw your video and I think you should try to play more dynamically with your left hand. For us beginners without a teacher it is very difficult to achieve that (i.e. playing ppp/pp with left hand, mf/f with the right), but if you are conscious of this, you can exercise more on this aspect and reach good results. Unfortunately, many digital pianos make harder to learn this, because they have imperfect velocity curves, very few timbral variations, inferior actions, etc... But nevertheless it is worth trying!

@JoeT: as usual, you are always so kind with people!

Or in other words: Learn to play the piano.


If you dish it out, you have to be able to take it. If anything that video just confirms what I said about how well learning the piano using an app goes. That was actually just meant as a random remark, I didn't realize that I hit bullseye by accident. Well, still sets the experience into context.

I think you are right, thanks for the advice. I'm still having fun improving every day!


I think my video proves my point perfectly, which is that you can learn to play piano, with or without a teacher, with or without an app. I never said I was using correct technique or that i'm a great player, but the fact you call it "just hitting keys" or "not playing piano", well.. that's just not true. The fact is I am definitly playing piano. You don't have to be Nadal to play a fairly decent amateur tennis game that people can watch and enjoy, and guess what, it's actually still called tennis!

@ JoeT, where is this anger coming from ? LOLOL

I haven't played the ES110 but was pleased with the P125 I owned before I bought an acoustic. The action is OK and has the usual limitations of a mid-line digital but is sufficient for a beginner. The P125 also had a great pipe organ sound.

Someone continuously trying to police what I'm allowed to post (not only on this thread) as if he was appointed moderator provoked a reaction. I didn't intend it to go this way.


You have your own warped definition of "learning to play the piano", this obviously is also the reason, why you're constantly upset with someone stating "opinion as fact" (as if not everything posted on a forum is opinion anyway). Where I come from learning an art or skill means being able to prove mastery in front of a jury. That's not possible with an app.

I didn't intend it to go this way either. In all threads before this one, I never "tried to police what you said", I just disagreed with you in a polite manner. Only in this thread, I said "maybe some people should stop stating their opinions as facts", and I didn't even mention your name.

If someone ask a question on this forum, you state all your opinions as if they are facts. I will not take the effort to search into past threads to provide multiple quotes, but there are examples enough. "vst's are not designed for playability" is one of them. Comments like this are nothing more than an opinion, and you say all of them as if they are facts. Like I said before the only issue I have with this is that it can be misleading to other people, especially newcomers. It's no coincidence you constantly run into people strongly disagreeing with you.




See, this is your problem. You call my definition of learning to play the piano "warped", because it's different from yours. You think your opinions are the truth. They are not. They are opinions. You think my playing disqualify's as art? just because I didn't learn playing the traditional way? because i'm using incorrect technique? It's still art, just accept it. You don't have to like it.








These are comments from other people directed at you, just from this thread only. It seems you have a little trouble listening to anyone other than yourself. I think it's safe to say, if I didn't learn to play piano, you didn't learn how to have discussions with people.

I foresee a moderator entering this topic soon and sayin "guys, get back to the topic or cease this discussion or I will do it".

I think there will be no agreement on this matter so I suggest we all put our guns, pens, keyboards at rest on this matter and get back to the topic.

Back to the topic, many years ago I (re)started with a Casio PX-350. It was what I was willing to spend at the time, reviews were positive and it was a good acquisition to me and helped me to restart playing a keyboard after twenty years of not playing at all. Despite its shortcomings, it served me well. It is serving my sister well now, even served her church for a couple of weeks when their main keyboard was down.

I have no intent to becoming a Glenn Gould. I think most here are like me, i.e. they are just wanting to enjoy themselves and make some art.

Of course, there are some more serious beginners, aiming to learn piano in the traditional way, but that can only afford a DP at the moment. I don't think they would be let down for an ES110 or a P125 short term, if they are all they can afford. If that were the case (which I disagree, of course) they could still get the ukulele.

At that price range, I really like Casio's PX line. It does not sound as good as Yamaha's but Casio do make pretty nice actions.

Are you taking the mickey?

https://youtu.be/EqNK3w-2C6I

The Casio PX S1000 / PX S3000 action rates up there as one of the worst of all time!

It's so bad that even Casio refuse to discuss it!

The piano store I purchased my Roland & Yamaha from tried to give me a free 'upgrade' to a PX S1000 when the other brands were out of stock... I think we all know why they had plenty of PX S1000s in stock lol!

Taking... me... where? *confused*

:-)

That bad huh? I actually never tried the S1000 and 3000. My experience was with the 160 and 770 and they were really fine to me.

What does Mickey have to do with what I said anyway?

I don't think sx1000/3000 are bad, For compact mobile use, they're good value.

The issue really is, how many people actually do that, now with the pandemic, the death of live music, the continued decline of pianism...

Casio, GIVE US 24cm pivot in the $700 range. INSTANT BUY. YOU CAN DO THIS.

Make it out of plastic, wood is for chumps..

Nothing. :-) (I didn't know the phrase either.)

The PX-770 is about 30%/40% more expensive than the P-125/P-121 though, and I'm not sure how portable it is?

P.S. 'taking the mickey' is a euphemism for 'taking the p1ss':
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taking_the_piss
I.e. to make someone laugh so uncontrollably that they involuntarily urinate.

P.P.S. not to be confused with 'piece of p1ss', which means something exceedingly trivial to do.

OP never stated his friend needed something portable and last I checked, the PX770 is less than USD200 more expensive than the P-125 so that's not really 30%.

P-125 is around USD $500, so that would make $200 equal to 40% more. Certainly a different price bracket.

The P-121 is even cheaper, and the OP seems very price conscious.

Where does P-125 sell for that cheap?

I paid SGD $935 + tax (USD $680) for the P-125 + Yamaha L-125 stand + Yamaha LP-1B 3-pedal unit + Yamaha headphones + dust cover + adjustable height storage bench. So the piano alone was under USD $500.

You got a steal there. Last I checked the price on the online store is at SGD1150 for the full unit.

That's without the bench and dust cover

When I mentioned Casio, I was thinking more on the line of PX-560 or PX-5S, TBH.

USA black friday sale price for P125 is ~$500 piano alone.

By no means do I want to start an argument, but I don't think it's healthy to perpetuate the mindset where only "proper" classical training makes you a "real" pianist. U3Piano's performance wasn't exceptionally good, but I think we should acknowledge that he CAN play the piano reasonably well, and that it's quite an achievement to reach that level learning by oneself; it speaks of a lot of dedication.

Thanks alot!

To me playing piano is mostly about emotion and expression, not so much about perfection. Of course I do respect anothers point of view, and like I said before in this thread I realize proper classical training has to be the best way, this has just been my way.

That said, I think my playing has taken a good step of improvement since this video, because of getting a much better practice option, switching to a vpc-1 and vsl vst's. This combination gives me a level of control I didn't even know was possible on a digital piano before.

All this started with someone throwing a snarky side remark about scam apps trying to teach piano, which immediately someone did bite on. The latter wasn't intended, though it's funny to watch all the mental gymnastics from people seeking validation. There is of course a certain definition for a "real pianist", as there is a certain definition of a "real pianoforte", which are both not at the discretion of a random Internet forum.

Yep, you can write all day long on here, you won't change anything about that. So I don't think it's healthy to start sentences with "I don't think it's healthy" and mush everything into "it's right how ya feel it". But this thread is about two entry level digital pianos, not about hurt feelings of self-taught pianists...

I almost felt my moderator-aspirations come up again to report some people for their off-topic discussion about digital piano's in this thread about the definition of piano playing. ☺️

Kidding, in fact I have actually found something you said I agree with here, it might be only half of a sentence, but it's something. Let's end this useless discussion here and let the topic be about digital piano's again.

I think it doesn't exists a "real" pianist and a "fake" pianist. There are beginner pianists, amateur pianists, professional pianists, virtuoso pianists, dog pianists, cat pianists and more. They are all pianists.





The important thing is to have fun.

For a moment I was thinking these pets are just hitting keys on a piano, and I was like right, anyone can do that, until..

Yes, you can see how she (the cat-pianist) plays with nice dynamics between left and right paw. I think she is classical trained.

\

Well, I could not disagree with you more !!!

I just sold my Kawai MP11SE and I am currently using the Casio PX-S1000 keyboard.

I could not be happier with it.

The only flaw it has .... and it is well documented ... is that it is difficult to push the keys down near the back of the keys.

And THAT is true. However, everything else about the keyboard is very nice and I do not even notice this issue anymore.

I am planning to purchase the much anticipated Kawai ES920 when it becomes available where I am .... however, in the mean time ... I am enjoying this Casio.

Since you 'couldn't be happier with' the PX-S1000 - then why on earth would you be looking forward to upgrading to the ES920?!!!

Are you aware that you are contradicting yourself there?!


This is false: the front of the ebony keys are way too light. Please actually watch the video before making assumptions and shooting from the hip.

Given the very short pivot length its entirely possible dmd finds the increased force required at the back of the key much more noticeable than the difference in weight between the white and black keys.

Its also entirely possible to be happy with one's current instrument while still being able to appreciate improvements other instruments might offer.

BINGO !

My comments were mean't as my experience with the CASIO PX-S1000 .... not as a complete analysis.

And .... that experience was preceded by a 2 year relationship with the MP11SE .... so that issue at the back of the keys was very noticeable to me. Nothing else stood out to me.

My motivation for this was to help balance the impression a new user might get after reading the scathing review presented by Burkey on the CASIO product. I just felt there was a need to at least present my experience with it.



Absolutely. My "couldn't be happier" comment was in consideration that I only paid $700 for the Casio PX-S1000 and did not expect a grand piano action on it. When I play it, I enjoy the action that I feel and I also enjoy the sound I hear (through headphones) ... so ... I could not be happier.

A part of me wonders why I want to spend the money on the Kawai ES920.

The answer is .... because I just want to.

I am basically a big fan of the kawai action and sound so I am sure it will be enjoyable to play.

Not very scientific .... just me.