Piano World Home Page
Hello everyone,

Here's some new product information that may be of interest:

Quote
Kawai Japan is delighted to announce the ES920 and ES520, the latest additions to Kawai’s popular ES series of portable digital pianos. The flagship ES920 is the long-awaited successor to the award-winning ES8, while the intermediate ES520 is a new mid-range model that delivers many of the features of the ES920 at a more affordable price.

Read more...

Kawai Global website: ES920 product page
Kawai Global website: ES520 product page

Kind regards,
James
x
[Linked Image]

ES920: Main Features
- Responsive Hammer III keyboard action with grade-weighted keys, counterweights, triple-sensor system, let-off simulation
- Harmonic Imaging XL sound technology with 88-key stereo sampling
- 38 authentic sounds, including acoustic pianos, electric pianos, organs, strings, bass etc.
- Motherboard and amplification developed in partnership with Onkyo, 40W speaker system
- Bluetooth MIDI and Audio functionality with aptX support for wireless communication and audio playback
- Standard MIDI, USB to Host/Device, Audio In/Out connectivity
- WAV/MP3 audio file record and playback via USB memory
- Support for latest PianoRemote control app for iOS/Android*
- Integrated Rhythm Section function with 100 backing accompaniment styles
- Intuitive control panel layout with 4-band EQ faders and high quality OLED display
- Stylish rounded case design and lightweight chassis weighing 17 kg
- Modern HM-5 designer stand and F-302 triple pedal bar, support for GFP-3 triple pedal unit


ES520: Main Features
- Responsive Hammer Compact II keyboard action with grade-weighted keys and triple-sensor system
- Progressive Harmonic Imaging sound technology with 88-key stereo sampling
- 34 authentic sounds, including acoustic pianos, electric pianos, organs, strings, bass etc.
- Motherboard and amplification developed in partnership with Onkyo, 40W speaker system
- Bluetooth MIDI and Audio functionality with aptX support for wireless communication and audio playback
- Standard MIDI, USB to Host/Device, Audio In/Out connectivity
- Support for latest PianoRemote control app for iOS/Android*
- Intuitive control panel layout with high quality OLED display
- Stylish rounded case design and lightweight chassis weighing 14.5 kg
- Modern HM-5 designer stand and F-302 triple pedal bar, support for GFP-3 triple pedal unit


_____________________________________________________


ES920: New Features & Improvements (compared to ES8)
- IMPROVED: Responsive Hammer III keyboard action with redesigned key switches
- IMPROVED: Improved acoustic piano sounds and updated Virtual Technician parameters
- IMPROVED: Enhanced Touch Curve setting with 10 selectable touch presets
- NEW: Electric Piano, Drawbar and Jazz Organ, Electric Bass, Harpsichord, and Strings sounds
- NEW: Motherboard developed in partnership with Onkyo for improved tonal clarity
- NEW: Updated control panel with 4-band EQ faders and modern OLED graphic display
- NEW: Support for latest PianoRemote control app for iOS/Android
- NEW: Bluetooth MIDI and Audio functionality with aptX support for wireless audio playback
- NEW: Stylish rounded case design and lightweight chassis weighing 17 kg
- NEW: Modern HM-5 designer stand and F-302 triple pedal bar, support for GFP-3 triple pedal unit
Yes, James, I’m the first to post (again), and I’m sure you know what that means; however, I will spare you for now because I’ve not had my coffee and medications! grin
Ok, I'm just the second to post. Pete14 is too athletic for me... laugh
I anticipate this will be the best bashing festival ever to take place @ PianoWorld! laugh
🥳🥂🎈
Originally Posted by Pete14
I anticipate this will be the best bashing festival ever to take place on PianoWorld! laugh

Why? These instruments might, in fact, be pretty interesting. Isn't the features/weight ratio astonishing, in both cases? I'm looking forward to any feedback from people who actually played these pianos!
There’s no need to play the ES-920; it’s basically identical to the ES8. As I’ve said before, specs do tell part of the story.

Kawai’s newest sound engine (with modeling) is eons ahead of this ‘old’ engine; also, the action is basically the same as for the previous generation (almost 5 years later).

Even something as simple and basic as the stand has been ‘uglified’. The old stand used a pedal lyre that resembled the look of a real grand piano; that is now gone!
Hi James,

These look good cant wait to try them .

Any idea when shops will get them?

Also is there any demos of the 520 i have listened to the 920 ones.

thanks
I noticed in the ES920 they added Cabinet Resonance (until now this was only in the CN/CA series), Hammer Noise and Low Volume Balance parameters. That's nice.

But... No videos yet from bonners, merriam music, leather jacket boy, etc.?? That's strange...
Originally Posted by musicman100
[...]Also is there any demos of the 520 i have listened to the 920 ones.
Considering the very similar specs, you can hear the CN29 demos. With headphones, the 2 main piano patches should sound exactly the same.
Originally Posted by Pete14
There’s no need to play the ES-920; it’s basically identical to the ES8. As I’ve said before, specs do tell part of the story.
I don't follow Kawai specs, so don't understand your comment in the context of what KJ put here:
Quote
ES920: New Features & Improvements (compared to ES8)
- IMPROVED: Responsive Hammer III keyboard action with redesigned key switches
- IMPROVED: Improved acoustic piano sounds and updated Virtual Technician parameters
- IMPROVED: Enhanced Touch Curve setting with 10 selectable touch presets
- NEW: Electric Piano, Drawbar and Jazz Organ, Electric Bass, Harpsichord, and Strings sounds
- NEW: Motherboard developed in partnership with Onkyo for improved tonal clarity
- NEW: Updated control panel with 4-band EQ faders and modern OLED graphic display
- NEW: Support for latest PianoRemote control app for iOS/Android
- NEW: Bluetooth MIDI and Audio functionality with aptX support for wireless audio playback
- NEW: Stylish rounded case design and lightweight chassis weighing 17 kg
- NEW: Modern HM-5 designer stand and F-302 triple pedal bar, support for GFP-3 triple pedal unit
Yaay! Also on instagram: https://www.instagram.com/p/CE6a2nUjfam/?igshid=1ga001nt9n411

Now what a surprise, who had thought they would release two new models? I mean, it wasn’t like there were signs beforehand, right :p?
Hello Nigel,

Originally Posted by musicman100
These look good cant wait to try them .

Any idea when shops will get them?

I believe some distributors may already have received their first shipment, so the new products could theoretically be available before the end of the month. However, as always whenever new models are released, demand will outstrip supply, and pre-orders will be fulfilled first.

Originally Posted by musicman100
Also is there any demos of the 520 i have listened to the 920 ones.

Not yet, however I plan to edit and upload them tomorrow. The contents of the audio demos will be similar to those of other models that share the same sound engine, however the ES920 and ES520 include new sounds that are not found on any other instruments.

In addition to the "stock" demo songs, I hope to add some new tracks that showcase some of these new sounds.

Kind regards,
James
x
One of the new EP sounds is actually recorded from a Hohner Pianet N!

This is the first time that a Kawai DP has included a digital version of this rare electric piano. I'm a big fan of the unique "crispy", "sticky" Pianet N sound, so was absolutely delighted when I stumbled upon when testing the ES920.

Cheers,
James
x
I like that there is a special focus on the redesign of RHIII action. As Kawai James mentioned in his post:
"IMPROVED: Responsive Hammer III keyboard action with redesigned key switches".

And also Kawai website says:
"<…> while structural reinforcements throughout the action assembly help to minimise noise and key wobble during staccato and fortissimo passages".

Hopefully this will help fix some issues that some users have complained about. I always knew what they were talking about, using my MP7, although there is a slightly different action.

I also like that it is possible to connect Kawai GFP-3 Triple Pedal Unit, the same one that comes with MP11SE. As far as I understand, there is no even simple pedal included with ES920? Only when choosing an optional stand, or buy separately mentioned above Kawai GFP-3 Triple Pedal Unit?

But anyway, this is not my model. I'll sit for a while with my old man MP7.
I owned ES8 and liked its metal case, the look was so classy, but.. lowering weight is worth loosing 'the look'. Gigging with heavy ES8 was not so convenient. I also appreciate adding better speakers - I believe some small, intimate gigs can nowt be done with internal speakers. Regarding key action, frankly I don't think RHIII needed any upgrade - it's my favorite portable action so far. I hope "redesigned key switches" do not change the feel, only improve reliability.

I'm curious to validate "improved acoustic piano sounds" - maybe Kawai James can share some more info what exactly has been changed wink
Originally Posted by 9190
As far as I understand, there is no even simple pedal included with ES920? Only when choosing an optional stand, or buy separately mentioned above Kawai GFP-3 Triple Pedal Unit?

As with the previous generation ES8 (and current generation ES110), the ES920 and ES520 include the F-10H damper pedal.

My apologies if this point was not clear.

Kind regards,
James
x
Thank you, that's good.
I think the black ES920 looks beautiful.
Excellent! I will be putting in my pre order on guitarcenter soon. When will US prices be available?
Also, can you expand on the
“IMPROVED: Improved acoustic piano sounds“ for the es920 compared to the ES8 please?
I’ll try to be more constructive.

Okay, so it’s obvious the ES-920 and ES-8 are not literally identical. I assume people can deduce that, but just in case.

Do I also need to repeat that these are simply Pete14’s onions all the time? For some odd reason I thought that was also implied; but just in case:

These are Pete14’s onions, and they do not necessarily represent the onions of PianoWorld and affiliated partners!

I believe that for such an iconic instrument, this update is indeed a disappointment. Once again, I go back to the sound engine: I’ve played the new engine (Novus), and the first thing I noticed was that “liveliness” that is lacking in purely sampled instruments. That sense of the instrument being alive and not static is not there in the old engine. I owned a cabinet-type Kawai with that ‘old’ engine and fairly quickly switched to Pianoteq. Conversely, I could see myself enjoying the new engine solo, and perhaps blending Pianoteq simply because I enjoy the added dimension this provides, but not because the new engine needs any ‘help’.

Regarding the improvements to the action, these seem to be mostly structural; not bad, but this should be a given considering five years in the making. A true upgrade would be stepping up to at least wooden keys (if still a folded action). “This adds weight”, you say; well, who cares! This piano is not primarily about portability; unless you consider it practical to take apart the dedicated stand (separating) from the piano and then re-screwing it when you get back home from your recital/gig. Yes, I know the stand is optional, but do you really want to place this instrument on a conventional “X” wobbling stand and use a flimsy -always moving around- pedal instead of a solid stand/pedal that adds both structural stability and beauty? (the ‘beauty’ part refers to the old stand with the pedal lyre; the new one is hideous, but still it does provide -I assume- the same kind of structural support).

A few more sounds? Is that supposed to be a big deal, considering five years in the making?

So no, they’re not identical; but the so-called improvements are not proportional to five years in the making; and therefore, this is, again, a disappointment.
Originally Posted by Pete14
[...]Even something as simple and basic as the stand has been ‘uglified’. The old stand used a pedal lyre that resembled the look of a real grand piano; that is now gone!
I agree on this one... Probably that's just another cost saving decision from the manufacturer.
Under 38 pounds.

Pete, if you don’t understand the significance of that, you seem to have little grasp of how the majority of customers are buying these slabs...i.e. not “fully dressed” with the factory stands and pedal units. Portability aside, that part of the equation tends to ruin the value proposition in favor of just getting a lower-end console instead.
Regarding the new touch options, I don't understand this from the manual:

...
Heavy 2: Suitable for dynamic performance with accents.
Heavy 1: Suitable for contrasting soft sound from quiet performance and bright sound from strong performance

...

Heavy 1 and 2 descriptions look to me like they say exactly the same thing with different words...
P.S.: And in the ES920 manual I don't see anywhere the illustrations of the velocity curves related to the touch options... Maybe these are not relevant for beginners, but for more experienced users they could be very important. In my CN37 user's manual I have them:

[Linked Image]
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Regarding the new touch options, I don't understand this from the manual:

...
Heavy 2: Suitable for dynamic performance with accents.
Heavy 1: Suitable for contrasting soft sound from quiet performance and bright sound from strong performance

...

Heavy 1 and 2 descriptions look to me like they say exactly the same thing with different words...

Maybe Heavy 2 is more suitable for changing rapidly from soft to loud (hence the "accents")?
It's possible they literally translated a Japanese phrase which would have a clearer meaning to Japanese speakers.
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Under 38 pounds.

Pete, if you don’t understand the significance of that, you seem to have little grasp of how the majority of customers are buying these slabs...i.e. not “fully dressed” with the factory stands and pedal units. Portability aside, that part of the equation tends to ruin the value proposition in favor of just getting a lower-end console instead.

I still maintain that the go-to choice for portability are slabs without speakers. In many cases not even 88 keys are needed for gigging (unless you’re playing the Rach III), so 61 keys can do the job; further contributing to even smaller dimensions. It’s not all about weight when it comes to portability, and hauling 88 keys around is a pain in the arse regardless of weight.

I’ll be even more cynical: The weight reduction in these new pianos is not Kawai’s way of saying “you guys, we want to make it easier for you to haul around the ES-920”, but rather a shrewd decision to save on quality materials; they’re most likely using cheap, flimsy, light plastic, etc..!
I'm looking forward to the discussion "Kawai ES920 vs Yamaha P-515".
How can I get the one with the clear keys? smile

[Linked Image]
Originally Posted by Pete14
I’ll be even more cynical: The weight reduction in these new pianos is not Kawai’s way of saying “you guys, we want to make it easier for you to haul around the ES-920”, but rather a shrewd decision to save on quality materials; they’re most likely using cheap, flimsy, light plastic, etc..!

Pete14, I know you've got a P-515 too. That one is promoted, among others, as a gigging piano (even though there's a stand for it, including triple pedal bar, which I use with mine). The P-515, like the ES8, weighs 22 kg. Should I have to regularly move my P-515 around, that would be way too heavy for me. So... (less) weight definitely is a selling point, even if the piano's inner life hadn't changed at all. (Maybe some components are "cheaper", that I don't know. I just don't find it fair to throw accusations around, just by reading specs.)
Originally Posted by PianoEntropy
I'm looking forward to the discussion "Kawai ES920 vs Yamaha P-515".

I guess I've just started it. :-)
The specs look terrific. I like the modern console design too, especially the clear book stand -- unobtrusive & unfussy. The slab detaches easily from the stand by thumbscrews -- what a nice feature.
Originally Posted by PianoEntropy
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Regarding the new touch options, I don't understand this from the manual:

...
Heavy 2: Suitable for dynamic performance with accents.
Heavy 1: Suitable for contrasting soft sound from quiet performance and bright sound from strong performance

...

Heavy 1 and 2 descriptions look to me like they say exactly the same thing with different words...

Maybe Heavy 2 is more suitable for changing rapidly from soft to loud. (hence the "accents")?
Well, I'm not an english speaker but to me they mean exactly the same thing... Heavy 1: suitable for contrasting from quiet to strong... Heavy 2: suitable for dynamic performance... Isn't it the same thing? This is why an illustration would have helped a lot here...
The only reason I’d get the P515 is for the Bosendorfer sample. They did a phenomenal job there. The default CFX sample on the other hand... yikes, very digital sounding.

Pete, you want Kawai to put their flagship novus sound engine into their sub 2k range? That is not a fair ask. It’s like asking Yamaha to put their CLP Grand Expression Modeling in the P515 (which they don’t).
There is no discussion to be had. End of story. Period!

If anything the comparison should be between the ES-920 and the P-125.

They both use yesterday’s sound engine; Yamaha is using their ‘critically acclaimed’ “Pure BS” engine; Kawai is using “Kumbaya Imaging II” (with extra sauce).

Since some have decided that ‘lighter’ is better, The P-125 wins in this department; weighing in at a nice 26 pounds; it’s also smaller; so yeah, Yamaha wins in the so-called portability department.

Both pianos use plastic keys, so they’re even there. One is not quantifiably better than the other; it’s simply a matter of preference.

In terms of pure wattage, Kawai wins; ‘wattaging’ in at 40 watts. The P-125 is lacking in the wattage department.



P.S.

Regarding Yamaha’s claim that the P-515 is meant to be portable, yes, they’re full of it; but it doesn’t bother me because they’ve delivered on all other ends; whereas, Kawai has not delivered on any of the essentials and is hanging on mostly to ‘portability’ whilst quietly trying to get away with the fact that this piano, costing more than the P-515, is using both yesterday’s sound engine and action. “Oh these are just specs”, you say. Well, go and try one of the new Novee (plural for Novus), and then try the ‘old’ -now passing for new- engine; and then get back to me.


P.S.S.

It doesn’t have to be a Novus; any of Kawai’s instruments using the new engine (with modeling) will do.
Originally Posted by Pete14
A true upgrade would be stepping up to at least wooden keys (if still a folded action). “This adds weight”, you say; well, who cares! This piano is not primarily about portability;

I disagree. The ES8 is supposed to be portable. Used for gigging with a premium instrument.
If they put in the wooden action it would become a lot heavier and more expensive.
Reducing the weight by 20% and giving it much better speakers it's actually a big upgrade for gigging.

"5 years in the making" doesn't mean that they have to make big changes just because it's been a long time. That's a logical fallacy.

They gave the ES8 a nice update, simple as that. Many people liked the RH3 action and they addressed and fixed the few issues people had with it. Just because they don't call it RH4 doesn't mean it's not a nice improvement.
Old design vs New design. Who wins?

[Linked Image]
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Old design vs New design. Who wins?

[Linked Image]

I rest my case! (Sort of) laugh
the funny thing is , i thought the es8 looked better than the p515, but the es 920 looks like the p515 lol
I was hoping to upgrade my ES8, but I find these offerings disappointing. I can't justify an upgrade based off the new features.

From an aesthetics point of view, I'm worried this trend will carry over to the MP line. One of the reasons I never considered the Yamaha P-515 was the fake plastic wood. I really hope the next MP keyboards aren't all plastic.
Originally Posted by Jitin
the funny thing is , i thought the es8 looked better than the p515, but the es 920 looks like the p515 lol

With a little touch of FP90's styling (look at buttons) :P
Originally Posted by DigitalSpace
From an aesthetics point of view, I'm worried this trend will carry over to the MP line.
I had the same thoughts. The new design is more like a synth design than a digital piano. Flat.
Originally Posted by AlphaBravoCharlie
Originally Posted by Jitin
the funny thing is , i thought the es8 looked better than the p515, but the es 920 looks like the p515 lol

With a little touch of FP90's styling (look at buttons) :P



Then again, if it sounds good, and speakers on paper is better, and most of all the action is good and has no issues like before, this would be an improvement.
Originally Posted by Jitin
the funny thing is , i thought the es8 looked better than the p515, but the es 920 looks like the p515 lol
Jitin, the similarities end there!
Originally Posted by Pete14
Originally Posted by Jitin
the funny thing is , i thought the es8 looked better than the p515, but the es 920 looks like the p515 lol
Jitin, the similarities end there!

Look what I've discovered! I didn't know someone can dedicate his time to post 3000 BS posts on the forum! LOL
Originally Posted by Abdol
Originally Posted by Pete14
Originally Posted by Jitin
the funny thing is , i thought the es8 looked better than the p515, but the es 920 looks like the p515 lol
Jitin, the similarities end there!

Look what I've discovered! I didn't know someone can dedicate his time to post 3000 BS posts on the forum! LOL

Are you jealous because you don't have dedication like Pete14?
Originally Posted by Jitin
Originally Posted by Abdol
Originally Posted by Pete14
Originally Posted by Jitin
the funny thing is , i thought the es8 looked better than the p515, but the es 920 looks like the p515 lol
Jitin, the similarities end there!

Look what I've discovered! I didn't know someone can dedicate his time to post 3000 BS posts on the forum! LOL

Are you jealous because you don't have dedication like Pete14?

LOL probably!
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Old design vs New design. Who wins?

[Linked Image]

The new design. The legs & pedal attachment are sleeker. Looks like the Korg C1 Air I just bought that looks like a console table when the keyboard cover is closed.
Your count is incorrect, Abdol, only 987 BS posts; the rest is gospel!
Congratulations to everyone at Kawai for getting this out despite Covid-19.

The improvements seem like lots of incremental upgrades, can't wait to try the new models side by side with the ES8
Awesome job!
Wow, this is just mediocre.
At least there are some minor improvements and it’s not exactly an es-8 but I’m still disappointed. I’d have to try it myself but it sounds just like minor touches to sound and action. Not what I was looking for to upgrade. Only reason I was considering this is because of the form factor which fits much better into my house than a fake upright, but I guess I’ll have to buy one of the new CLP or something instead of getting one of these.
I’m sorry for your dissatisfaction; might I interest you in a P-515?
Originally Posted by Pete14
I’m sorry for your dissatisfaction; might I interest you in a P-515?
Do you want to sell yours so you can run to shop and buy brand new shiny ES920? wink Btw. you mentioned new Kawai modelling engine - what have you meant? The pianist mode in CA series?
Originally Posted by Raekon
At least there are some minor improvements and it’s not exactly an es-8 but I’m still disappointed. I’d have to try it myself but it sounds just like minor touches to sound and action. Not what I was looking for to upgrade. Only reason I was considering this is because of the form factor which fits much better into my house than a fake upright, but I guess I’ll have to buy one of the new CLP or something instead of getting one of these.

The improvements in sound clarity might be more significant than most of the other updates. Getting the weight down is great for gigging musicians, and I can see that helping people decide to go with the Kawai, but only if the sound competes well (playing it, not hearing a demo).

I don't see any reason to be very negative till after trialling the instrument.

Also, the upgrades in the string sounds interest me.
No, to selling my little truck; and yes, to ‘pianist mode’.

If someone gives me a free ES-920, I will turn it upside down and use it as an ironing board; oh wait, it’s mostly made of plastic, so that could be a fire hazard. I guess I’d have to sell the ES-920 and use the cash for a much needed refrigerator! laugh
Congrats on a new release, Kawai!

Good to see the company able to pull off new releases like this, in these times. Weight improvements and better speakers are pure goodness, so I think this is a pretty great iteration with all the other improvements.

James, is my memory incorrect, or did you recently say the ES8 wasn't being replaced and the stock shortage was just supply chain issues? laugh
@pete14, get a life dude. You’ve been derailing conversation and turning the discussion back to your own narcissistic posts and repeating the same drivel over and over. If you don’t like the product, buzz off and go shill for Yamaha somewhere else.

There have been some good questions raised by everyone here that James could address please.
......and who made you the overseer?

We all have our own ways of saying things. Perhaps I sometimes go a bit too far on the sarcasm, but I’m not the only one believing this to be a disappointing release.

“Shill” for Yamaha? I’m constantly beating Yamaha up. But most importantly, who cares about what Pete14 has to say. I certainly couldn’t care less about your positivity bubble (that might be a contradiction because here I am responding to you, so perhaps I care just enough to make the clarification).
Originally Posted by Pete14
“Shill” for Yamaha? I’m constantly beating Yamaha up.

What is your claim?

That ES920 RHIII is better or worse than P515 NWX? That ES920 HI-XL is better or worse than P515 CFX? That ES920 Onkyo speaker system is better or worse than P515 speaker system?
1555 for the Ee920 at Gear4Music ES920
1299 for the MP7-SE MP7-SE

The 256 difference gets you a reasonable set of monitors. I know I mentioned this in the other thread, but I'm just not sure I see the value at the price point.
Kudos to the Piano N - nice job!

Greg
Originally Posted by navindra
Originally Posted by Pete14
“Shill” for Yamaha? I’m constantly beating Yamaha up.

What is your claim?

That ES920 RHIII is better or worse than P515 NWX? That ES920 HI-XL is better or worse than P515 CFX? That ES920 Onkyo speaker system is better or worse than P515 speaker system?

My biggest beef is with the sound engine; this is one spec that is truly important, and will make a significant difference.

For Kawai to bypass their much better sound engine and stick an aging engine into the ES-920 is akin to taking Kurzweil’s award-winnng sound engine (based on the so-called triple-strike samples) from the 80s, pairing it with a grand piano action and expecting great results. Granted, Kawai’s engine is not from the 80s, but the point is that a ‘good’ action can only go so far if the engine is simply not equipped for a higher level of complexity.

The action makes the engine and the engine makes the action. It’s a two part equation. And yes, a sound engine can be objectively deconstructed: more/longer samples= better; modeling= way better; newer/faster processors= better; more mic perspectives= better; experience accumulated by years of programming= better, etc..
(I see the ‘engine’ as an accumulation of all of the above; technically, ‘the samples’ are not the engine, but the engine has to render them, etc.....)

The action is more of a personal thing, I guess, but I do feel that wood not only looks better but also feels better (I know, some people can’t tell or care for a difference; hence, personal).

Lastly, I truly do feel that the weight reduction for the ES-920 is a reference on the build quality (cheaper), and not something Kawai set out to do to make the ES-920 more portable. When one thinks portability, one thinks MP7 and not ES-8\ES-920 (yes, this is just my opinion).



P.S.

There is not an ounce of sarcasm above.
Originally Posted by Doug M.
The improvements in sound clarity might be more significant than most of the other updates.[...]
They never say exactly what is improved in the samples (if really they are improved), if they improved all the notes or just some of them, etc... And why not make a comparison between the sound from the "old" samples and the new "improved" ones? That could convince some undecided/picky users to make the purchase. Personally I fail to spot differences from the audio demos/videos/reviews of the new and the old model, even in the similar cases of CA58 vs CA59, CN37 vs CN39, etc...
Originally Posted by Pete14
My biggest beef is with the sound engine; this is one spec that is truly important, and will make a significant difference.

Harmonic Imaging XL still sounds excellent and holds its own against other brands’ newer offerings. If you’re upset that Kawai isn’t offering their newest flagship Novus sound engine for sub 2k products, where are your posts regarding the Yamaha P515 not having Yamaha’s CLP Grand Expression Modeling? But you have no problem with that and keep promoting the P515. If not a Yamaha shill, then you’re a biased fanboy
Originally Posted by navindra
That ES920 RHIII is better or worse than P515 NWX? That ES920 HI-XL is better or worse than P515 CFX? That ES920 Onkyo speaker system is better or worse than P515 speaker system?

In the end these are the questions that matter because despite all the criticism, the ES920 is offering improvements (albeit small ones) over the ES8 at what will likely be the same price. We can quibble about the looks and the weight savings vs metal case trade-off till the cows come home, but in every other objective sense the ES920 is an improvement over the ES8.

Its also perfectly reasonable to want more and expect a brand new model released 5 years after the ES8 to push the envelope and overtake the P-515. Of course that means different things to different people. As someone who would really like an integrated USB/Audio interface, the absence of that feature disappoints me. The lack of wooden keys may disappoint other people. But for the majority of customers interested in this product what matters most is how the action feels and how it connects to the sound coming out of the speakers. And until we try it none of us can make a judgment on that front.
You are mistaken, Keys98 (I feel that ‘Keys88’ sounds more catchy; was that already taken?)

At the time the P-515 was released, Yamaha gave it the best/newest sound engine available; this is the exact sound engine used in the 600 series. The new engine with GEM was just recently released, so there’s no way Yamaha can go back in time to use it for the P-515 (time travel might be possible, but I don’t think Yamaha has achieved that level of advancement).

P.S.

Some mild sarcasm used above, but still, I meant what I said. grin
ES920: New Features & Improvements (compared to ES8)

- IMPROVED: Responsive Hammer III keyboard action with redesigned key switches

Technical guff, designed to sound like the action is a substantially improved, when we know it will all but play the same.🤨

- IMPROVED: Improved acoustic piano sounds and updated Virtual Technician parameters

On paper looks virtually identical to the es8, again no real substance that will be heard unless you have the ears of a 🦇

- IMPROVED: Enhanced Touch Curve setting with 10 selectable touch presets

I'm sure most digital piano have settings for touch and enhanced to a degree so the average Joe will notice? 😕

- NEW: Electric Piano, Drawbar and Jazz Organ, Electric Bass, Harpsichord, and Strings sounds

Not impressed with 6 new sounds, my casio ctk has 500😁

- NEW: Motherboard developed in partnership with Onkyo for improved tonal clarity

Partnership sounds like marketing hype, let onkyo send a engineer to the headquarters for a brainstorm and then add Onkyo to the spec sheet, looks good for kawai, and a few quid for the association for Onkyo which believe it or not aren't very highly rated in the world of hifi/Pro audio👎

- NEW: Updated control panel with 4-band EQ faders and modern OLED graphic display

OLED been available since 2008, just 12 years late👍

- NEW: Support for latest PianoRemote control app for iOS/Android

Who cares? 🤔

- NEW: Bluetooth MIDI and Audio functionality with aptX support for wireless audio play back

Most CHEAP Pianos have this, again old hat😴

- NEW: Stylish rounded case design and lightweight chassis weighing 17 kg

Metal es8 looks way more durable and of substantially better quality👍

- NEW: Modern HM-5 designer stand and F-302 triple pedal bar, support for GFP-3 triple pedal unit

😒

Kawai Es8 £1100 kawai Es920 £1500

No comment 🤐
Well, what other portable piano, except P515, has audio interface built-in? By 'portable' I mean slab digital piano. Heck, even with 'professional' stage pianos you only get it with flagship models (not in Nord). It's much easier for Yamaha than for other manufacturers to put it inside since they own Steinberg.

I will wait with my opinion about new casing until I try it in a shop and actually touch it. On pictures I like ES8 looks much more. It had something special, the premium feeling which I haven't experienced with any other slab digital. The vertical 'wall' behind keybed with 'Kawai' looks soo classy. Featurewise ES920 is an improvement. ES8 needed better speakers, some BT connectivity and now it's there.
Originally Posted by AlphaBravoCharlie
Well, what other portable piano, except P515, has audio interface built-in? By 'portable' I mean slab digital piano. Heck, even with 'professional' stage pianos you only get it with flagship models (not in Nord). It's much easier for Yamaha than for other manufacturers to put it inside since they own Steinberg.

I will wait with my opinion about new casing until I try it in a shop and actually touch it. On pictures I like ES8 looks much more. It had something special, the premium feeling which I haven't experienced with any other slab digital. The vertical 'wall' behind keybed with 'Kawai' looks soo classy. Featurewise ES920 is an improvement. ES8 needed better speakers, some BT connectivity and now it's there.

Well, there's the Yamaha P-125, P-121, Roland RD-2000, I think a few Dexibells as well... I do think this should become a standard feature. Are manufacturers really still scared of people capturing digital copies of their samples?
Originally Posted by AlphaBravoCharlie
Well, what other portable piano, except P515, has audio interface built-in? By 'portable' I mean slab digital piano. Heck, even with 'professional' stage pianos you only get it with flagship models (not in Nord). It's much easier for Yamaha than for other manufacturers to put it inside since they own Steinberg.

I will wait with my opinion about new casing until I try it in a shop and actually touch it. On pictures I like ES8 looks much more. It had something special, the premium feeling which I haven't experienced with any other slab digital. The vertical 'wall' behind keybed with 'Kawai' looks soo classy. Featurewise ES920 is an improvement. ES8 needed better speakers, some BT connectivity and now it's there.

I initially admired the idea of embedded audio interface until I started buying a digital mixer! Then I realized that they are useless for performance and studio recording.

S/PDIF or ADAT is what an instrument should have. Just like Genos. Most professional interfaces/mixers support these two and there is no reason to have one in a stage piano.

The modularity of having a standard optical output will last forever. It probably will never gets outdated and can be used with almost every pro gear I can think of.

This is somthing I'd love to see in the next iteration of MP series!
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by AlphaBravoCharlie
Well, what other portable piano, except P515, has audio interface built-in?

Well, there's the Yamaha P-125, P-121, Roland RD-2000, I think a few Dexibells as well... I do think this should become a standard feature. Are manufacturers really still scared of people capturing digital copies of their samples?

The RD-88 too. Plenty of people use VSTs and DAWs at home and on stage. Having a built-in audio interface makes setting this up so much easier.
How dare you show up in here with all this negativity, Jdjboz?

I shall give thee one Bannon for this behavior; do not force me into giving thee two Bannons! laugh

Henceforth, thou shall take a knee when referring to Kawai’s new offerings and ask for forgiveness from thy lord upon which one Bannon will be removed. wink
Originally Posted by Pete14
How dare you show up in here with all this negativity, Jdjboz?

I shall give thee one Bannon for this behavior; do not force me into giving thee two Bannons! laugh

Henceforth, thou shall take a knee when referring to Kawai’s new offerings and ask for forgiveness from thy lord upon which one Bannon will be removed. wink

Let us know what you've been smoking as well. Seems to be a really good stuff. It is legal here in Canada.
laugh
Originally Posted by Abdol
Let us know what you've been smoking as well. Seems to be a really good stuff. It is legal here in Canada.

It's not the weed Abdol, he actually is like this. 😛
Originally Posted by Svennig
1555 for the Ee920 at Gear4Music ES920
1299 for the MP7-SE MP7-SE

The 256 difference gets you a reasonable set of monitors. I know I mentioned this in the other thread, but I'm just not sure I see the value at the price point.
I fully agree with you. Unless I’m able to buy this for 1300€ something I’d rather spend more and buy a CA or a CLP, or spend less and buy an older/different product. It’s like that middle ground without any real advantage that doesn’t make much sense. Price on these has to go down to 1200-1300 to make sense and eventually after the initial launch hype it will.
ES920: Am I right in calculating a 6kg weight saving vs FP-90, and 5kg weight saving vs the P515 (approx)?

Provided everything else adds up for a prospective buyer (sound, action, functionality)... it could well make more sense RE portability/gigging...

...for which purpose, a larger Kawai logo is required at the back (just to rub the haters' faces in it at gigs).

I suggest a free sticker in the box, for those who want to do that. 😈
Originally Posted by OscarRamsey
ES920: Am I right in calculating a 6kg weight saving vs FP-90, and 5kg weight saving vs the P515 (approx)?

Yep! That's quite a lot, isn't it?

(Of course, depending on its size, an extra sticker could reduce the weight saving massively. So be careful what you wish for. :-))
These look really excellent. I'll likely be getting one, and I really appreciate the more powerful speakers and the lighter weight. I've been slightly nervous ever since I got down to one potable keyboard, and not having a backup in case it needs fixing.

I'm curious about the extra sounds, especially the improvements to the acoustic piano sounds and harpsichord. And I'll need to try both to see whether the lighter weight of the 520, which is a pretty big attraction, comes with still acceptable action and sound.

My ES8 will likely stay as my recording/music office/MIDI input keyboard, and this the gigging and jamming board. As someone who mostly plays on real pianos, thanks to Kawai for keeping these models up to date.
Originally Posted by Mickey_
(Of course, depending on its size, an extra sticker could reduce the weight saving massively. So be careful what you wish for. :-))

lol

Provided one is satisfied with the action of the ES520, it makes an even more compelling case concerning portability and price. For many people I'm not sure the sound and action improvement of the ES920 will be worth the extra cost.
Originally Posted by Kawai James
One of the new EP sounds is actually recorded from a Hohner Pianet N!

This is the first time that a Kawai DP has included a digital version of this rare electric piano. I'm a big fan of the unique "crispy", "sticky" Pianet N sound, so was absolutely delighted when I stumbled upon when testing the ES920.

Cheers,
James
x

Had one! Quite nice, but lacked the bit of the Wurly. Never went out of tune, though.
I feel the P-225 was really in need of a major upgrade, so Yamaha made the right choice and completely overhauled it, in a compelling and price-effective way.

The ES8 was still competitive, and there were plenty of folks comparing it to the P-515 and FP-90 (the other main competitors) toe to toe. So while it's not a particularly exciting/revolutionary update, it really didn't need one in the first place. it's unfortunate for some of us in the peanut gallery that not everything was new--new sound engine, new action, etc....and perhaps the naming scheme raised expectations too. IMHO this seems kind of like an ES8-Mk2 or ES8SE. A replacement for the ES8 but not really a huge improvement in the aspects that may of us care about (maybe to the light giggers, the new plastic body and lower weight may make it a better choice for live performances?).

Now we get to direct our attention to the FP-90, which as of today is officially four years old? smile
Is the es520 supposed to be a replacement for the es110 (seeing as the 110 has been on back order for months on dealer websites)? If so the price jump is ridiculous.
Originally Posted by AlphaBravoCharlie
Well, what other portable piano, except P515, has audio interface built-in? By 'portable' I mean slab digital piano. Heck, even with 'professional' stage pianos you only get it with flagship models (not in Nord). It's much easier for Yamaha than for other manufacturers to put it inside since they own Steinberg.

I will wait with my opinion about new casing until I try it in a shop and actually touch it. On pictures I like ES8 looks much more. It had something special, the premium feeling which I haven't experienced with any other slab digital. The vertical 'wall' behind keybed with 'Kawai' looks soo classy. Featurewise ES920 is an improvement. ES8 needed better speakers, some BT connectivity and now it's there.

I do miss that mini fallboard, looked high quality and more piano-like.
Originally Posted by maul
Originally Posted by AlphaBravoCharlie
On pictures I like ES8 looks much more. It had something special, the premium feeling which I haven't experienced with any other slab digital. The vertical 'wall' behind keybed with 'Kawai' looks soo classy.

I do miss that mini fallboard, looked high quality and more piano-like.

Oh yes, to me this design element is very important, probably the most important in design, whether it be a slab or a console. The apotheosis of this design is, of course, MP11/SE. Every time I see this element in it, I never get tired of admiring it. For me, it is extremely important not just for aesthetic pleasure, but also from the point of view of maintaining the correct technique (feeling the border without moving fingers too far). Now there are even practically no console digital pianos left (not counting hybrids), where this element is preserved, so that it is monolithic, solid, without a gap where the sliding keyboard cover slides. Until recently, Kawai console pianos had this element, but in the CA79/99 models they also destroyed it, as I wrote about here.
According to the Kawai press release, the 520 is a mid range between the 110 and the 920. I would expect the 110 to continue for a bit, and eventually be upgraded. The current shortage of 110s is not surprising, it is a logical starter piano for people stuck in due to the pandemic.
Originally Posted by 9190
Originally Posted by maul
Originally Posted by AlphaBravoCharlie
The vertical 'wall' behind keybed with 'Kawai' looks soo classy.

I do miss that mini fallboard, looked high quality and more piano-like.

Oh yes, to me this design element is very important, probably the most important in design, whether it be a slab or a console. The apotheosis of this design is, of course, MP11/SE. Every time I see this element in it, I never get tired of admiring it.

It's interesting to learn what details others like so much, or even regard as important – because for them (you!) it is not a detail. I'll never look at that "mini fallboard", as maul calls it, the same... and I don't mean this jokingly.
Originally Posted by 9190
Until recently, Kawai console pianos had this element, but in the CA79/99 models they also destroyed it, as I wrote about here.
Correction: I meant only CA79, since the CA99 originally in the design of upright pianos, not grand pianos.
I remember the question of the 'mini fall-board' on Kawais came up some time ago, and there was at least one person who did not like the idea because it could impede playing. I have no horse in this race, but bring this up as a kind of 'alternative view.' At the time somebody posted a link to a video about 'scratches on the fall-board' - probably this one:
[video:youtube]https://livingpianos.com/do-pianists-scratch-the-fallboard-on-a-piano/[/video]
Yes, it was discussed here.
Not sure what the big deal is, but the ES920 still seems to have a "mini-fallboard" as you can see here:

[Linked Image]

It's smaller, but a totally valid trade-off given what you get back. This is not a 3.5mm jack we're talking about.
ES8 for comparison
[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

And even bigger with MP7/SE
[Linked Image]
Originally Posted by 9190
ES8 for comparison
[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

And even bigger with MP7/SE
[Linked Image]

I am not trying to derail, but seriously, why give up that elegance (ES-8) over whatever the end goal was for the ES-920? The ES-920 looks like the old, less-refined version of the ES-8. This just doesn’t make any sense; and please don’t tell me it’s all in the name of portability because it isn’t. For god’s sake, even the speaker grill is nicer on the ES-8.

Why didn’t they simply create a new more ‘portable’ lineup and not mess around with the ES-8’s classic elegance. If anything, the ES-8 successor should’ve been even more robust. Don’t you get it? That’s what the ES-8 is all about, and not cute, flimsy lightness.


P.S.

Believe it or not, I’m not trying to be negative for the sake of it; this is really just the way I feel about this. The last time I felt so disillusioned was back in 2013 when Apple released the trash can. Why Cook, why?😩
Originally Posted by Pete14
My biggest beef is with the sound engine; this is one spec that is truly important, and will make a significant difference.

Plenty of P515 users ditch the native sound engine in favor of VSTs. You still use Pianoteq, right?

Point to P515 if it has good resonance modeling but the ES920 doesn't.

Originally Posted by Pete14
The action is more of a personal thing, I guess, but I do feel that wood not only looks better but also feels better (I know, some people can’t tell or care for a difference; hence, personal).

Right. P515 has real wood, ES920 has real Ivory Touch... but the more important question is how the actions themselves compare.

Finally, it appears that the ES920 has a significantly improved and redesigned speaker system that is class-leading.
Well, my playing doesn't improve much by the design of the instrument.

I'm not going to be overly drawn into speculations on the value of these new instruments till I've had a good time playing them.

Accepting change of features one likes is hard as it involves loss aversion, a feeling which Kahnemann determined to be almost twice as emotionally impactful as the perceived value of improvements. So the metal has gone, and the fallboard is less pronounced. If it doesn't bother Stevie Wonder, I'll get over it. On the plus side, users can cut back on their deadlift sets.

Am I so good at piano that I've endless energy to argue/discuss an instrument (albeit long anticipated) on paper? I'm thinking not this time.

Made that mistake with the CLP685 when I trashed Yamaha for not releasing an instrument with better specs. Was forced to swallow my words after playing it. I'm hoping the Kawai ES920 will feel like a decent step forward, or why release it? They must believe it is...

Let's not trash talk the thing to death, but instead go practice. We should suspend this discussion till there are some actual playing experiences to share.
If portability is not important and looks matter so much why not get a console style piano instead?
...because they’re bigger and more expensive. The ES-8 is the poor man’s console piano that is big enough, yet somehow fits anywhere in the house.
Originally Posted by Pete14
...because they’re bigger and more expensive. The ES-8 is the poor man’s console piano that is big enough, yet somehow fits anywhere in the house.

Fair enough
Originally Posted by 88snowmonkeys
If portability is not important and looks matter so much why not get a console style piano instead?

Well, in my case I don't like console style digital pianos. If I'm going to get something that big, I'm getting a real piano and not something that is attempting to look like a piano I learned on as a kid. In my mind, a digital piano can be classy without trying to be something that it is not. Obviously, this is just me and to each his/her own; I'm just giving a perspective on why somebody wouldn't want a console style.
Originally Posted by 88snowmonkeys
If portability is not important and looks matter so much why not get a console style piano instead?

Last paragraph of this message. Perhaps I went overboard there. Recently I have been trying to be more calm and indifferent. Trying not to prove anything to anyone. To each his own. This is one of the reasons for me, which also few people think about.
That is, a proper, solid, flexible in its adjustments music stand with proper height, comparable with grands.
[Linked Image]

But a person's opinion can change. Or he simply sees different advantages/disadvantages in both solutions.

But there is an uncompromising solution — hybrids. They have a real fallboard and an authentic music rest height. But my financial situation is compromise…
I'm guessing the rendering engine isn't free, CPUs cost money. More so in lower volume items like these, compared to say a laptop. The decision seems sensible in context:

Pianist mode: SK-EX Rendering - NV5 / NV10
SK-EX Rendering - CA79 / CA99
Harmonic Imaging XL (HI-XL) - ES920 / CA59 / MP7SE / MP11SE
Progressive Harmonic Imaging (PHI) - ES520 / DG30 / CN39 / CA49
Harmonic Imaging (HI) - ES110 / KDP110

I'll join the "a bit disappointed with the looks" camp, but I think it makes sense in the current market, and brings a consistent look to the ES line. I expect it to review well when people actually try playing it.

My hope is that they release a new MP model with improved action and rendering engine, retaining the good looks of the MP7SE and MP11SE. I'll build my own stand, echoing the design of the ES8.
Originally Posted by MartF
I'm guessing the rendering engine isn't free, CPUs cost money. More so in lower volume items like these, compared to say a laptop. The decision seems sensible in context:

Pianist mode: SK-EX Rendering - NV5 / NV10
SK-EX Rendering - CA79 / CA99
Harmonic Imaging XL (HI-XL) - ES920 / CA59 / MP7SE / MP11SE
Progressive Harmonic Imaging (PHI) - ES520 / DG30 / CN39 / CA49
Harmonic Imaging (HI) - ES110 / KDP110

I'll join the "a bit disappointed with the looks" camp, but I think it makes sense in the current market, and brings a consistent look to the ES line. I expect it to review well when people actually try playing it.

My hope is that they release a new MP model with improved action and rendering engine, retaining the good looks of the MP7SE and MP11SE. I'll build my own stand, echoing the design of the ES8.

It is very unlikely.
Korg: Can't compete in the stage piano section with Kawai at all.
Roland: RD-2000, the sound isn't competetive enough. The rest are
Nord: The action isn't competetive and the sound is subjective. Also higher price than Kawai
Yamaha: CP-88's is inferior both in action and sound set. No piano emulation, inferio action, inferior stage voices in general.
Others: Don't matter

Kawai doesn't even have to try to introduce anything better to win the competition. Kawai is probably selling every MP series board it's manufacturing at the moment.
a new version of RHIII? I hated the RHIII on the pianos I tried up before the pandemic. Would love to try these out whenever the vaccine comes out, but I've literally never seen an ES piano in any store in Nebraska. Last time I asked about one (late 2018) the store said they only had them for order. Maybe that will change. In the meantime I'll look forward to hearing it online

the comment above me seems to think Kawai is the top selling digital piano maker in the world when they're not. Everyone has their own opinion on things like who has the best sound. there's also always room to improve
[quote=9190]
[Linked Image]

I couldn't live with that. Speakers should be heard and def. not seen. But the idea of watching tv whilst practicing might work if you can multitask . . .
Originally Posted by Pete14
[...]I am not trying to derail, but seriously, why give up that elegance (ES-8) over whatever the end goal was for the ES-920?
Cost reduction.
And with time (of course not in the first year) they can lower the prices, because the cheaper materials allows for the price reduction. The less weight is an added bonus.
Competitors will not be able to do the same thing, unless they want to lose money (or unless they too will use cheaper materials for their new products).

Quote
[...]For god’s sake, even the speaker grill is nicer on the ES-8.
Yes, it was more nice looking because it was just a single band running from side to side along the entire length of the instrument. Now in the ES920 the grill is split into 2 parts because they put other controls and the display in between. Usually, in design, when you break a long line, the end result is worse.
Originally Posted by Kougeru
a new version of RHIII?


I don't think so. They just replaced "this time we (hopefuly) managed to fix ES8's action flaws" with a more embelished marketing version to look like a new thing. wink

My understanding is Kawai changed not only the contact strips but also the circuit board where the contacts go. Hopefuly this fixed the clicks and occasional loud notes for good.
Originally Posted by EVC2017
My understanding is Kawai changed not only the contact strips but also the circuit board where the contacts go. Hopefully this fixed the clicks and occasional loud notes for good.

I wonder if these 'improvements' to the RHIII action are carrying over to other boards currently using it, like the MP7SE.
I wonder if these 'improvements' to the RHIII action were carried over from other boards currently using it, like the ES-8 and MP7SE.

Weren't there report(s) of ES-8 unit(s) being repaired under warranty with redesigned sensor strips/boards? As in: http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...ey-switch-circuit-board-replacement.html
Originally Posted by John_C
I wonder if these 'improvements' to the RHIII action are carrying over to other boards currently using it, like the MP7SE.
I don't think they have interest in mantaining 2 different production lines for the same RHIII action, one more prone to issues, the other one sturdier, so it's very likely that from now on all the produced RHIII keyboards will get the new improvements. Unless they still have stocked many old RHIII actions...
IMHO this is a statement for advertisement. Kawai is aware of the keybed issue and in the specs they are addressing it by saying "improved" that they solved this issue.

So they should be the same.
After much consideration and endless debating with myself, I've finally decided to neglect the ES-920 and buy a Yamaha P-515. Sorry Kawai, but I'm not prepared to pay €200 more for a DP that in terms of specs only has incremental improvements from the ES-8. Also, I don't have the time to wait for the models to come into shops, test the ES-920 out and read 100 reviews, which would inevitably further delay my purchase as well as my time without any piano to play on.

Since I was one of the first to spread the rumor of new Kawai models by starting the thread "New Kawai models in August", I feel guilty of unleashing a storm of leaks and disrupting the company's business. My intentions were good - I just tried hyping up the product - but the leaks were not intended. They were probably caused by people googling the ES-920, whose name became known because I was the first to spread it around after hearing about it from my dealer. To make things even worse, I've just bought their competitor's product. If the company had a prison, they would probably want to put me on it. To make up for my crime, I will erect a Kawai shrine by my P-515 and pay respect to master Shigeru every time I play my brand new P-515. It will probably make him turn in his grave.
We have the first indication of the actual street prices for these two models in the US:
https://www.clvmusic.com/category/Keyboard/Digital_Piano/Kawai/

The ES520 is listed at $1199.
The ES920 is listed at $1599, which is actually $50 LESS than the ES8 was going for before the new products were announced.

Surprisingly low — hopefully not below Kawai’s Minimum Advertised Price.

I have no affiliation with LV Music — just providing some reference info, I haven’t seen these models listed anywhere else on US-based retailer sites.
Originally Posted by PianoEntropy
After much consideration and endless debating with myself, I've finally decided to neglect the ES-920 and buy a Yamaha P-515.

Congrats, the good news is you had the chance to consider all the options, and make an informed decision on them. I haven't followed your search, but have you had the chance to try a P-515 and ES8 in person? It's one thing to go by the specs, but you may find that the specs don't end up being very meaningful if you find one or the other much more realistic/pleasant to play in person.
Originally Posted by Mickey_
Originally Posted by OscarRamsey
ES920: Am I right in calculating a 6kg weight saving vs FP-90, and 5kg weight saving vs the P515 (approx)?

Yep! That's quite a lot, isn't it?

(Of course, depending on its size, an extra sticker could reduce the weight saving massively. So be careful what you wish for. :-))

HAHA (RE the sticker) - you're not an ultralight wild camper are you? 😜

So, the direct competition is approx 1/3 heavier than the ES920...

...or the ES920 is 1/4 lighter (depending on how you look at it).

It's a substantial difference... the weight of my carry-on luggage when I fly (albeit a short trip)... and not far off the weight of my bicycle. Impressive!
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
I wonder if these 'improvements' to the RHIII action were carried over from other boards currently using it, like the ES-8 and MP7SE.

Weren't there report(s) of ES-8 unit(s) being repaired under warranty with redesigned sensor strips/boards? As in: http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...ey-switch-circuit-board-replacement.html
Based on info I was given by Kawai America tech support, there were two new versions of the MIII action:

1. A version with different key switches to address some reliability issues. This version has been shipping in the ES8 and MP7SE since late 2018 per Kawai America support.

2. A version with the upgrade in '1' and other changes requested by Clavia to include in a version used in the Nord Grand. There are various rumors about what Clavia wanted, none substantiated outside of Kawai. These version changes have not been publicly disclosed by Clavia or Kawai. My guess is that Clavia is bound to a non-disclosure agreement regarding the action, and Kawai does not want the info public.

Hard to know what changes are in the actions of the new keyboards, but I would venture a guess that the newly released ones have the same action as has been shipped in the ES8 and MP7SE since late 2018.
Originally Posted by MartF
I'm guessing the rendering engine isn't free, CPUs cost money. More so in lower volume items like these, compared to say a laptop. The decision seems sensible in context:

Pianist mode: SK-EX Rendering - NV5 / NV10
SK-EX Rendering - CA79 / CA99
Harmonic Imaging XL (HI-XL) - ES920 / CA59 / MP7SE / MP11SE
Progressive Harmonic Imaging (PHI) - ES520 / DG30 / CN39 / CA49
Harmonic Imaging (HI) - ES110 / KDP110

I'll join the "a bit disappointed with the looks" camp, but I think it makes sense in the current market, and brings a consistent look to the ES line. I expect it to review well when people actually try playing it.

My hope is that they release a new MP model with improved action and rendering engine, retaining the good looks of the MP7SE and MP11SE. I'll build my own stand, echoing the design of the ES8.

Actually I would hope for a digital piano GF-C combined with HI-XL which is far more portable than the CA-59 and significantly more affordable. Until then, I guess am just keeping an eye at offers on used CA-17 advertisments in my area...

Originally Posted by No Expectations
like the modern console design too, especially the clear book stand -- unobtrusive & unfussy. The slab detaches easily from the stand by thumbscrews -- what a nice feature.
This nice feature is to be highly appreciated as well smile
Actually, I am pretty interested to hear some real musician experience based comparisons of CA-49 and ES-920, as CA-49 has a better action and ES-920 has a better sound engine, even though they are in very different product lines.

Sharing experience on that comparison might give some clue on how important is a better key action vs. to have a better sound engine. (of course not thinking about VSTs this time).
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by PianoEntropy
After much consideration and endless debating with myself, I've finally decided to neglect the ES-920 and buy a Yamaha P-515.

Congrats, the good news is you had the chance to consider all the options, and make an informed decision on them. I haven't followed your search, but have you had the chance to try a P-515 and ES8 in person? It's one thing to go by the specs, but you may find that the specs don't end up being very meaningful if you find one or the other much more realistic/pleasant to play in person.

Absolutely, I tried both in stores quite recently (this was where I heard rumours about the ES-920). To be fair, I think the ES-8 is absolutely a great piano and the two are really on par. Perhaps I even liked the sound of the ES-8 a little better, but on the other hand I slightly preferred the action of the P-515 (even though NWX is only partly wood). The piano sounds of the SK-EX vs CFX and Bosendorfer do sound considerably different to me. I was really impressed by the Kawai sound at first, but after several listens I was convinced the P-515 sounds are also very good. Having grown up with a Yamaha piano, the CFX sounds more familiar to me, and the Kawai more novel, thus the initial excitement, but in the end it was not a deal breaker.
All in all the differences more or less balance out between the ES-8 and P-515. So the decision is mainly based on not wanting to put in the extra bucks to get a new product, which I expect to be fairly similar to the ES-8.
So this begs the question: if the action of the new ES920/520 are pretty close to or maybe identical to the ES-8, how would you describe the difference between the ES110 and the ES8?

I'm relatively new to the ES110 and have been thrilled with the action. "Pianistic" for me refers to the best acoustic piano playing experiences I've had, where I command, fly, gracefully land, leap... you get the idea. A level of expressiveness that I haven't experienced with other DPs. I also like the 'light touch' (to me it just seems right). So what is better/different compelling about the ES8 action compared to the ES110?

I read user reviews on SW for the MP11SE, and their rave reviews about it being a real instrument and the joy of playing it- I guess that's the bench mark, if you're able to shleep 75 pounds and can shell out $2,799. Negativo for me, so having a keyboard with at least as good an action as the ES110, more and improved sounds, and kick ass built-in speakers, that would be worth saving pennies for.
I also notice the ES110 has the Responsive Hammer Compact action and the ES520 has the Mark II of that.

And, I just checked out SW: "Sorry, the Kawai ES8 88-key Digital Piano with Speakers - Gloss Black is no longer available."
The RHCII in the ES520 will probably have a very similar feel to the ES110 but with a few improvements. The RHCII is also in the KDP-110 and I've read it is more refined (less noise and bounce when the key rebounds), although perhaps it is a little heavier. Of course Kawai could have implemented this action slightly differently in the ES520 compared to the KDP110. It also has a triple sensor which makes it possible to repeat notes without silencing them (without the pedal). But the basic geometry of both actions are the same.

The RHIII in the ES8 and ES920 has counter weights, let off simulation, and a slightly longer pivot length so theoretically it should feel more like an acoustic piano, but in the end its all about personal preference. Many people seem to really like the lightweight RHC.
Originally Posted by 88snowmonkeys
The RHCII in the ES520 will probably have a very similar feel to the ES110 but with a few improvements. The RHCII is also in the KDP-110 and I've read it is more refined (less noise and bounce when the key rebounds), although perhaps it is a little heavier. Of course Kawai could have implemented this action slightly differently in the ES520 compared to the KDP110. It also has a triple sensor which makes it possible to repeat notes without silencing them (without the pedal). But the basic geometry of both actions are the same.

The RHIII in the ES8 and ES920 has counter weights, let off simulation, and a slightly longer pivot length so theoretically it should feel more like an acoustic piano, but in the end its all about personal preference. Many people seem to really like the lightweight RHC.

My goodness, thanks for such a comparative, detailed description. I'm going to have to memorize parts of what you wrote, the language of piano actions is one I care to cultivate! There is the poetic, floral wine-sniffing equivocations, and then there's the nerd-out of all the technical details, what everything is called, and how it works.

I've never noticed any particular noise and bounce from the keys. Cool, so a small upgrade from the ES110 action. Didn't think it needed upgrading.

I'm really wondering about let off simulation / escapement, ever since I heard one person describe it as the space AFTER you've pushed down, and in that relaxed portion of the key travel, there's no upward pressure, so you literally don't have to make as much constant, continual effort, like you would if a spring was pushing the key back up. But perhaps it's not so much the effort needed, but the fact that you don't automatically have to 'hold the key together', or 'take care of the key', or 'be strong for the key' (whatever, it's sounds funny to me).

Yeah, I'd love to try the ES8 and the MP11SE. If I'm already happy with the ES110, anything more would be gravy. Once 'pianistic' joy and satisfaction is found with a keyboard, it opens the world to you, gives you a voice-
I am happy to help. But be careful about memorizing what I write! lol I am far from an expert, there are many people here in this forum more knowledgeable than myself!

Just want to clarify that digital pianos can't perfectly replicate let off/escapement (unless its a true grand piano action like the Kawai NV10). Most digitals just simulate the bump that you feel part way down when you press the key. At this point on an acoustic piano the hammer is released and you can hold down the key without too much effort. But in a digital there is no hammer being released, you still need to exert force to hold down the key which is holding up a metal weight on a lever. However the counterweights that exist in the RHIII (and a few other actions) will contribute some force and make holding down the key easier. Check out a few digital piano reviews on pianodreamers if you want to read about some of the basics of digital piano actions (and of course there are many great threads here on pianoworld!). But don't let the technical stuff override the music because in the end what matters is how the keys feel under your fingers, and it seems like you are very satisfied with your ES110!
Very official prices at my local very official Kawai dealer:
- ES920 1799€
- HM-5 stand 149€

The ES8 was around 1300€ ("reduced from 1600€") when they still advertised it.
You guys, I just figured it out, the ES920 is not the successor for the ES-8 but rather a new entry into the lineup. Kawai simply needs more time for the ES-9 to be completed. It will be glorious, the ES-9!

I have to tell myself this story every night before I go to sleep or else I stay up pacing back and forth; asking ‘why, Kawai, why? (Please, do not spoil it for me with all your objectivity and such).
I thought you'd just think of the Yamaha P-515 and fall asleep with a smile on your face.
I’ve tried that, and it helps; but the trauma is so severe that my mind just won’t let go until I tell the story I told (I have to be very convincing or else my mind knows I’m tricking it).


Sometimes I even sing myself a lullaby:

Twinkle, twinkle, little Pete,
For I have a little treat,
ES-9 is coming soon,
Wait and see but please don’t peek.
Pete14, I thought you were happy with your P-515? And, possibly, in the market for a new Clavinova? So... what's with your obsession with a product you never seemed to care for in the first place? Why not just be happy with your P-515, and/or keep on looking for some other fish in the sea? Because, you know... there are other fish in the sea!

Sometimes you just have to let go, Pete14. Sometimes you just have to let gooo...
Mickey, you don’t understand; I am sick (obsessed), and at this point it doesn’t even matter if I’m in the market for a new digital. Every time a ‘major’ product is rumored, my anxiety kicks in: is this it? Is this the one with alien tech so advanced that not even 100 years of solitude will render it obsolete? Is this the one capable of shape/color shifting at my command? Today it’s a purple slab, tomorrow it’s a black and shiny baby-like grand?

For you see, before I met this place, I was at peace with whatever was available. heck, I only upgraded when my piano broke (seriously). Now, several pivot threads later, I’m never satisfied; not even when I’m perfectly happy with my P-515 (a contradiction, it seems, but that’s how bad it can get).

“No”, I say. “I can’t be happy; Gombessa says there’s something newer out there with longer pivots, longer samples, real this, real that”.

You still have time, Mickey, but it’s too late for Pete; he is stuck at the hotel PianoWorld forever, and perhaps not even alien tech could save him!




P.S.

“Welcome to the hotel PianoWorld,
Such a lovely place, such a lovely place,
Plenty of stuff at the hotel PianoWorld,
Any type of gear, you can find it here”!

I fell for that chant, and now I’m stuck forever at the hotel PianoWorld! laugh
After the long wait for the ES920 release, I'm now waiting for video reviews and demos and reviews in the likes of Keyboard Magazine that aren't just a reprint of the Kawai press release or a list of features. Stu Harrison at Merriam Music makes especially good demo videos covering features which also include honest impressions of the instrument.
Originally Posted by Pete14
[...]“I can’t be happy; Gombessa says there’s something newer out there with longer pivots, longer samples, real this, real that”[...]
Unless the length of the pivot is really too short, it's all ok. It's not the length of the pivot to be important, it's how you use it! laugh grin laugh
Originally Posted by Paul in Navarre
After the long wait for the ES920 release, I'm now waiting for video reviews and demos and reviews in the likes of Keyboard Magazine that aren't just a reprint of the Kawai press release or a list of features. Stu Harrison at Merriam Music makes especially good demo videos covering features which also include honest impressions of the instrument.
Well, I agree they make good videos to get an idea of how these beasts sound, but they will never tell you they are disappointed for something in a digital piano. They have to sell ALL of them, even the most horrible thing they have in their stock! smile
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Originally Posted by Pete14
[...]“I can’t be happy; Gombessa says there’s something newer out there with longer pivots, longer samples, real this, real that”[...]
Unless the length of the pivot is really too short, it's all ok. It's not the length of the pivot to be important, it's how you use it! laugh grin laugh
blush
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Well, I agree they make good videos to get an idea of how these beasts sound, but they will never tell you they are disappointed for something in a digital piano. They have to sell ALL of them, even the most horrible thing they have in their stock! smile

In his review/overview of the ES8, Stu Harrison acknowledged there were some sounds that he felt were "a bit of a poor effort." And in his comparison of the ES8 and P515, he makes a very interesting demonstration of the difference in the actions, particularly the weight required to press the keys. At 24:51 he uses an iPhone to make an eye-opening comparison of the weight-sensitivity of the actions.

Yes, his store sells both, but he wants his customers to be aware of the advantages and disadvantages of each.
Originally Posted by Paul in Navarre
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Well, I agree they make good videos to get an idea of how these beasts sound, but they will never tell you they are disappointed for something in a digital piano. They have to sell ALL of them, even the most horrible thing they have in their stock! smile

In his review/overview of the ES8, Stu Harrison acknowledged there were some sounds that he felt were "a bit of a poor effort." And in his comparison of the ES8 and P515, he makes a very interesting demonstration of the difference in the actions, particularly the weight required to press the keys. At 24:51 he uses an iPhone to make an eye-opening comparison of the weight-sensitivity of the actions.

Yes, his store sells both, but he wants his customers to be aware of the advantages and disadvantages of each.

I'd also say Stu has been fairly critical/frank about his feelings on the NV10.
Yes, I remember he made a face of disappointment when he tried the Rock Piano patch of a Kawai DP (I think it was an ES110 compared with an FP-30 or a P125). Well, he is a guy that sometimes isn't able to hide his personal opinions, even if it's a seller (but objectively that Rock Piano patch was really horrible sounding!)... laugh
Originally Posted by Paul in Navarre
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Well, I agree they make good videos to get an idea of how these beasts sound, but they will never tell you they are disappointed for something in a digital piano. They have to sell ALL of them, even the most horrible thing they have in their stock! smile

In his review/overview of the ES8, Stu Harrison acknowledged there were some sounds that he felt were "a bit of a poor effort." And in his comparison of the ES8 and P515, he makes a very interesting demonstration of the difference in the actions, particularly the weight required to press the keys. At 24:51 he uses an iPhone to make an eye-opening comparison of the weight-sensitivity of the actions.

Yes, his store sells both, but he wants his customers to be aware of the advantages and disadvantages of each.

The flagship piano sound and action are 99% of what matters on a digital piano whose function is to be a piano used in a home for playing piano repertoire. If I prefer piano A to piano B on those two features, the remaining sounds of piano A can be complete garbage and I still would prefer piano A for piano repertoire.
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
The flagship piano sound and action are 99% of what matters on a digital piano whose function is to be a piano used in a home for playing piano repertoire. If I prefer piano A to piano B on those two features, the remaining sounds of piano A can be complete garbage and I still would prefer piano A for piano repertoire.
Of course, it was just to say that often Mr. Harrison is not able to hide his sincere opinions, rather than describing just the positive aspects while hiding the negative ones (like most of the others sellers do on youtube).
Originally Posted by Randyman
Originally Posted by 88snowmonkeys
The RHCII in the ES520 will probably have a very similar feel to the ES110 but with a few improvements. The RHCII is also in the KDP-110 and I've read it is more refined (less noise and bounce when the key rebounds), although perhaps it is a little heavier. Of course Kawai could have implemented this action slightly differently in the ES520 compared to the KDP110. It also has a triple sensor which makes it possible to repeat notes without silencing them (without the pedal). But the basic geometry of both actions are the same.

The RHIII in the ES8 and ES920 has counter weights, let off simulation, and a slightly longer pivot length so theoretically it should feel more like an acoustic piano, but in the end its all about personal preference. Many people seem to really like the lightweight RHC.

My goodness, thanks for such a comparative, detailed description. I'm going to have to memorize parts of what you wrote, the language of piano actions is one I care to cultivate! There is the poetic, floral wine-sniffing equivocations, and then there's the nerd-out of all the technical details, what everything is called, and how it works.

I've never noticed any particular noise and bounce from the keys. Cool, so a small upgrade from the ES110 action. Didn't think it needed upgrading.

I'm really wondering about let off simulation / escapement, ever since I heard one person describe it as the space AFTER you've pushed down, and in that relaxed portion of the key travel, there's no upward pressure, so you literally don't have to make as much constant, continual effort, like you would if a spring was pushing the key back up. But perhaps it's not so much the effort needed, but the fact that you don't automatically have to 'hold the key together', or 'take care of the key', or 'be strong for the key' (whatever, it's sounds funny to me).

Yeah, I'd love to try the ES8 and the MP11SE. If I'm already happy with the ES110, anything more would be gravy. Once 'pianistic' joy and satisfaction is found with a keyboard, it opens the world to you, gives you a voice-

I have the ES-110; bought 2.5 months ago.... Happy with the action (also own the MP11), but would like triple sensor (for fast repeated notes like Chick Corea). Happy with the sounds but would like audio in and an screen and enough buttons without key diving.

Not gassed about an extra 5 pounds (I gig, schlep everywhere even at home (play outside; daily schlep), public transportation in LA and NYC. And I would HATE a heavier action! The lightness of the ES-110's action makes it almost better than the MP-11's!
Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
I have the ES-110; bought 2.5 months ago.... Happy with the action (also own the MP11), but would like triple sensor (for fast repeated notes like Chick Corea). Happy with the sounds but would like audio in and an screen and enough buttons without key diving.
Do you noticed a big difference in quality between the main piano patch of the MP11 (not SE) and that of the ES110?
Quote
Not gassed about an extra 5 pounds (I gig, schlep everywhere even at home (play outside; daily schlep), public transportation in LA and NYC. And I would HATE a heavier action! The lightness of the ES-110's action makes it almost better than the MP-11's!
So, keep the ES110 and be happy. wink
“So, keep the ES110 and be happy”, you say.

Why be happy when happier is just around the corner? But then happier will not be enough when super-happier is being rumored; and round and round we go.

It never ends, magicpiano, it never ends! wink



P.S.

Please notice the ‘winky’ face; indicating a certain level of jest.
Originally Posted by Pete14
Why be happy when happier is just around the corner? But then happier will not be enough when super-happier is being rumored; and round and round we go.

*Grabs pitchfork*


Originally Posted by Pete14
Please notice the ‘winky’ face; indicating a certain level of jest.

*Sets down pitchfork (slowly)*
You see, Gombessa gets it! smile
Originally Posted by Pete14
Why be happy when happier is just around the corner? But then happier will not be enough when super-happier is being rumored; and round and round we go.

It never ends, magicpiano, it never ends! wink
So, why get married? confused laugh grin laugh

Anyway, that user thinks the lightness of its ES110 is better than the new features of the ES520, so it's likely the ES520 would not make him happier...
Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
I have the ES-110; bought 2.5 months ago.... Happy with the action (also own the MP11), but would like triple sensor (for fast repeated notes like Chick Corea). Happy with the sounds but would like audio in and an screen and enough buttons without key diving.

Not gassed about an extra 5 pounds (I gig, schlep everywhere even at home (play outside; daily schlep), public transportation in LA and NYC. And I would HATE a heavier action! The lightness of the ES-110's action makes it almost better than the MP-11's!

Sounds like the ES110 is a good fit for your gigs. But if I were playing outside, I would give a listen to the ES520's speakers once you get a chance... they're a lot louder than those you've got, and will make a noticeable difference, especially when playing outdoors.
17kg is excellent. Maybe they can use some of those savings towards a longer action.

I've said it a lot of times, but the first company to release a 23cm+ folded action in a slab piano at <2k I'm going to buy 2 of them new.
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Originally Posted by Pete14
Why be happy when happier is just around the corner? But then happier will not be enough when super-happier is being rumored; and round and round we go.

It never ends, magicpiano, it never ends! wink
So, why get married? confused laugh grin laugh

Well, that's why marriages sometimes end, magicpiano, that's why they end...
Originally Posted by trigalg693
I've said it a lot of times, but the first company to release a 23cm+ folded action in a slab piano at <2k I'm going to buy 2 of them new.

The Roland FP90 is pretty close on both those criteria.
As I have predicted, there’s nothing that can be improved or added to the already good ES8 without cannibalizing the CA and NV-series which is why the upgrades are nothing to speak of. One should look at the ES920 as a facelift rather than a new model.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
As I have predicted, there’s nothing that can be improved or added to the already good ES8 without cannibalizing the CA and NV-series which is why the upgrades are nothing to speak of. One should look at the ES920 as a facelift rather than a new model.
I suspect the updated amp&speakers don't cost so much more than the previous, and it's likely that the cost savings from the chassis are much bigger than the added cost for the slightly more powerful speakers. So, in the long run, the manufacturer will get more money by selling X units of ES920 rather than X units of ES8. And they have more room to lower prices if necessary...

IMHO this was a move mostly dictated by this period of economic uncertainty on a global scale... That's what I guess...
Originally Posted by CyberGene
As I have predicted, there’s nothing that can be improved or added to the already good ES8 without cannibalizing the CA and NV-series which is why the upgrades are nothing to speak of. One should look at the ES920 as a facelift rather than a new model.

Most of this thread is about the ES920, which I have no knowledge about to state an opinion. I'm a recent Kawai believer when I bought an ES110, which I still am very happy with although, I wish it did a few things better. I would of opted for something in between, kind of like the Roland RD88. This is where the ES520 has got my attention. It's still relatively light, presumably has better internal speakers and amplifier, and has some controllable digital effects. Everything I wanted.
Originally Posted by 36251
Most of this thread is about the ES920, which I have no knowledge about to state an opinion. I'm a recent Kawai believer when I bought an ES110, which I still am very happy with although, I wish it did a few things better. I would of opted for something in between, kind of like the Roland RD88. This is where the ES520 has got my attention. It's still relatively light, presumably has better internal speakers and amplifier, and has some controllable digital effects. Everything I wanted.

You should take the es110 apart and measure the pivot length and take a picture with a ruler -for science-. laugh

PIvot Length Thread
Originally Posted by Mickey_
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Originally Posted by Pete14
Why be happy when happier is just around the corner? But then happier will not be enough when super-happier is being rumored; and round and round we go.

It never ends, magicpiano, it never ends! wink
So, why get married? confused laugh grin laugh

Well, that's why marriages sometimes end, magicpiano, that's why they end...

As long as a man keeps earning money, he can upgrade his wife just like his pianos. Haha.. I'm just kidding..
Originally Posted by Mickey_
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Originally Posted by Pete14
So, why get married? confused laugh grin laugh

Well, that's why marriages sometimes end, magicpiano, that's why they end...

Thou shall be punished with one Bannon each. This giveth no pleasure, for I am fond of ye; but it must be done, for ye have trivialized the union between two souls -“till death do us part”- marriage!

Two more Bannons, one each, shall cometh down upon ye if this unholy behavior continues!
Originally Posted by 36251
Originally Posted by CyberGene
As I have predicted, there’s nothing that can be improved or added to the already good ES8 without cannibalizing the CA and NV-series which is why the upgrades are nothing to speak of. One should look at the ES920 as a facelift rather than a new model.

Most of this thread is about the ES920, which I have no knowledge about to state an opinion. I'm a recent Kawai believer when I bought an ES110, which I still am very happy with although, I wish it did a few things better. I would of opted for something in between, kind of like the Roland RD88. This is where the ES520 has got my attention. It's still relatively light, presumably has better internal speakers and amplifier, and has some controllable digital effects. Everything I wanted.

Same here; the ES-110 needs audio in, a screen (key menu diving blows), Bluetooth in, their best piano sample. But it does NOT need an extra 5 pounds and a heavier action! So we may be better off with our 110s... I have to schlep mine and my hands get fatigued on heavier actions. The goal for the pro market should be light and feature packed; so what if the price is higher?
perfect time to buy a used Kawai with GF action.
Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
Same here; the ES-110 needs audio in, a screen (key menu diving blows), Bluetooth in, their best piano sample.

...plus: a USB port, in order to connect a flash drive (recording to USB). If I'm not mistaken, this is something else the ES110 lacks. In this regard, too, the ES520 is a welcome upgrade.
Originally Posted by Mickey_
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Originally Posted by Pete14
Why be happy when happier is just around the corner? But then happier will not be enough when super-happier is being rumored; and round and round we go.

It never ends, magicpiano, it never ends! wink
So, why get married? confused laugh grin laugh

Well, that's why marriages sometimes end, magicpiano, that's why they end...

As Roger Scruton said, happiness, the "highest human end", is "that elusive but abundant thing which we obtain only so long as we do not pursue it."

(Before someone comes to say we are going off-topic, this is a quote from "The Aesthetics of Music", page 458.)
So, summarizing, now Kawai offers 3 ES digital pianos:

ES110: slab version of the KDP110 (but the KDP110 replaced the EX piano patch with the SK-EX and got rid of the oldest Kawai piano patch you can still use on the ES110: "Concert Grand 2" and its variants);
ES520: slab version of the CN29 with the addition of an USB PENDRIVE input;
ES920: slab version of the CN59, but with plastic action and less powerful speakers. However, the 920 adds an arranger and 4 sliders for real-time EQ variations.

The ES520 costs about 120 euros less than the CN29... But actually if you buy an ES520 bundled with stand and triple pedal system, you'll pay much more than a CN29, so I expect the price of the ES520 to drop in the near future. Apart from the people that need portable DPs for gigs, there are people that like more to have slab DPs in their rooms, rather than cabinet-style DPs. But I don't think they would gladly accept to spend more for the slab version rather than for the cabinet-style one...

The ES920 costs much less than a CA59 and its price should drop even more because the competition with the (now with a lower price) Yamaha P515. But the price of a CA59 actually is a little too high IMHO. I remember before the pandemic, the last price of the CA58 was ~2059 euros. Now a CA59 costs 2599 euros!
The es520 aint a cn29; it has the Responsive Hammer Compact II , not a Responsive Hammer III, which is on the cn29. Unless they changed this RHC2, it is basically the rhc1... but with some third sensor that may or may not matter. It seems that kawai really doesn't want to make their cn and ca line redundant, thus the complete lack of upgrades in actions. Like, come on, the es520 may aswell be a es110 with 'new' technology. Atleast yamaha had the balls to put a wooden action in their p515. These just seem like handicapped versions of their bigger brothers.
Oh, you are right, so the ES520 is like the CN29 but with a cheaper action and an USB pendrive input. I wonder if the RHIII action is really better than RHC2 and how much...

About the P515, the action is not really a full-length wooden action like the Kawai in the CA series. AFAIK the NWX (white) keys are plastic with a wood core inside. The black keys are plastic inside and outside. And I think it's always a folded action, like the RHIII.
Originally Posted by infermitydood
the es520 may as well be a es110 with 'new' technology.

That's pretty much what it is. Beyond yet another new compact and lightweight action there's not much else Kawai could add to a piano positioned in between the ES110 and ES920 (although I think we all have our own wish list!). I think we need to hold out on judgment of the RHCII in the ES520 until people try it out and see how different or similar it is in practice versus the ES110. Sometimes small refinements of the action are a better way to go. Additionally most complaints on this forum about the ES110 action probably don't require a completely new action to address, just a little refinement.

Originally Posted by infermitydood
These just seem like handicapped versions of their bigger brothers.

Just like the FP-10 and FP-30 are handicapped versions of the FP-60. Keeping certain components the same reduces costs and usually gives buyers better value. I think its fantastic the ES520 gets the same connectivity, user interface and speakers as the ES920.

Originally Posted by infermitydood
At least yamaha had the balls to put a wooden action in their p515.

Like magicpiano said, its a bit of a stretch to call the NWX a wooden action. The white keys are about 3/4 wood, which might help with the structure of the keys, noise dampening etc. but the rest of it's important moving parts are metal/plastic.

http://forum.pianoworld.com//ubbthr...h-action-vs-nwgh-action.html#Post2435085
Many posting in this thread have looked mostly at the ES920. But for me and I suspect many others, the ES520 is the one that commands attention.

Price is the main thing. At this time it'd be challenging to pony up for even the 520, so end of discussion. And weight- I want to schlepp this to gigs, parties, family gatherings, and after hauling a Nord Stage 88 around, 40-41 pounds plus case, recently sold, I vowed never again get a board that was so damn heavy.

So yes, the 520 and not that stay-at-home weighty and pricey beauty with the 4 band eq!

After falling in love with my new ES110 I wanted more. No need for upgrades on the action, it inspires me to play like no other has, so that's all good. But it needed basic upgrades. Aux In! I wrote a separate foretelling thread on that, and look at that, now it has one. BT audio: Big FY! Going from 19 sounds to 34 sounds is helpful, I wish it was twice as many, but still, an upgrade. And that damn 40 watt sound system. That makes me as happy as any of the other upgrades.

My desire here is to show up at a family gathering and have an easy to understand piano that myself and others could play, no external speakers needed, it sounds powerful and rich to those gathered round. Etc.

Now, if only they came out with a 520 with a mic input! The ES530! I think I'll hold out for that model to come out.....

No..... just kidding. I receive my new JBL Eon One Compact this Tuesday- that has a 4 channel mixer with phantom power and BT streaming.JBL EOC SW link

And look at that, I even predicted the ES520, I just called it the ES120 or ES200 in my thread on needed upgrades for the ES110 (very close, right?). I must have felt it in the air, how else to explain how so many of my desired upgrades made it into the final product? Makes you wonder.
for me- the two questions for Kawai 920-so far it's "improved this and improved that"-but DID THEY GET RID OF THE UGLY MUSIC STAND??? The wiry one that comes with benchtop only? What I saw it I was like "really??" Also, not a word on polyphony. You can "preorder" it, but they do not give much info, not even a vid, but already want my money. Also, I hope they added honky tonk sound to a whole array of sounds-this ultimate piano sound is not in ES8! And they call themselves experts in piano production... I had to "cheat" and play honky tonk through MIDI-why do I have to work that hard after I paid a good money for ES8?
https://www.kawai-global.com/product/es920/ just looked at sounds-NO HONKY TONK! Not a word on what stand comes with the top only...
Woo hoo-at the bottom of the description it says that it comes with a transparent music rest! So, just Honky Tonk missing then... I would be curious what did Kawai have to take out to make it 3 kg lighter... Lighter materials? Same trick as with Casio-making black keys lighter? Anybody knows?
Originally Posted by Siberialina
[...]I would be curious what did Kawai have to take out to make it 3 kg lighter...[...]
Well, from the pictures the ES920 looks much more "plasticky" (and dull-looking, IMHO) than the ES8... This should be the answer.
I think it is more than 3kg. ES8 has 23kg or so (I think, without the music stand, that is also heavy). ES920 is 18kg? Anyway, ES8 body is made of steel. I guess half of its weight is because of the body. ES920 must be plastic. Being plastic itself is not necessarily a bad thing, as long as it is well engineered (which still has to be determined - let's wait for the guinea pigs early adopters to find it out for us. smile ).
The one think putting me off is the saving of the inbuilt sequencer is that it saved it on to USB with the KSO type!! What is the point of that. Why not the midi file format which then can be used to put into sibelius or other programs.

Does anyone know if you can convert KSO to midi. But to me that is a totally waste why not save in midi file format which everyone uses. I notice the ES920 saves midi files.

that for me puts me off buying this keyboard.

If james is reading this why would Kawai do this a useful feature totally ruined!!! Also why not include a wav file recorder as well. At least that is something Yamaha does not do!!
You can save a recorded song from the internal memory to the USB pendrive in standard midi file format as well. => Page 65 of the Owner's Manual.
And of course you can save audio files in MP3 or WAV.
Not on the es520 you can on the 920!! see page 46



Manual
Sorry I meant to say on the ES520 . You can save both wave and midi on the ES920 but why not do it on both like other manufacturers do!! It does cost that much and it is £1000 keyboard. I think kawai has made a big mistake with that.!!
Originally Posted by musicman100
Sorry I meant to say on the ES520 . You can save both wave and midi on the ES920 but why not do it on both like other manufacturers do!! It does cost that much and it is £1000 keyboard. I think kawai has made a big mistake with that.!!

I think that's pure product differentiation. No reason why it's not possible, Kawai just disables some features that it wasn't too save for its more expensive models hoping that some people who need it will be upsold to the higher tier product.

All manufacturers do it, it's just more "noticeable" in some cases with small features that are more "nickel and dime"ish.
It should be illegal to include a feature/tech and then simply disable it for the heck of it, or to differentiate it from more expensive models.

I have an idea for clear and marked differentiation: simply make the more expensive model truly better and there won’t be any need to cripple the cheaper piano!
Originally Posted by Pete14
It should be illegal to include a feature/tech and then simply disable it for the heck of it, or to differentiate it from more expensive models.

I have an idea for clear and marked differentiation: simply make the more expensive model truly better and there won’t be any need to cripple the cheaper piano!

When it's very obvious (or at least perceived to be) it can insulting to the user. But I'm not really against the practice. You have to take advantage of economies of scale, and forcing manufacturers to be less efficient by requiring different, bespoke components be used in all cases means fewer and more expensive products overall.

Plus, there are always options for more features to be "unlocked" or upgraded via firmware or OTA, and that would preclude any such possibility.
I wonder if what Yamaha did with the CLP-775 is, in a way, something similar to disabling features?

I mean, the 775 seems to me the sweet spot because if you go up for the 785 it becomes very difficult to justify it against the NU1X which costs about the same.

Yamaha does omit some ‘features’ from the 775, but in my opinion these are incidental and sometimes even useless (counterweights in a digital, duh)! So I guess at some point they realized that they should’ve disabled more features for the 775 and decided to outright remove it from the lineup to truly force us up into the 785 (only in the US for some reason).

If I were in the market for a new Clav, I’d go for the 775; but Yamaha is ahead of me and thought it too sweet for Pete. Damn you, Yamaha!
Yes but the whole of the Yamaha digital keyboard has the same sequencer and wav features from the Psr sx600 to the top model. We are talking about a thousand pound keyboard not a cheap and there are already big differences although i think the prices for both are quite high compared to the competition!!
Originally Posted by Pete14
It should be illegal to include a feature/tech and then simply disable it for the heck of it, or to differentiate it from more expensive models.
It seems nefarious on first glance but actually makes some sense: reduce consumer prices, speed innovation, reduce lead time, reduce delivery time, and offer environmental benefits.

For example, industrial equipment makers can produce say one adjustable "gizmo" rather than make and warehouse say 200 different models around the world. Simple firmware changes allows the maker to adjust for performance and efficiency (maybe requires changing a few small parts also).

Oscilloscope makes do this too; some are so easy to hack that the makers must be giving a "bonus" to electronics hobbists. Professional labs will not hack the equipment as livelihoods depend on calibrated equipment, pros respect IP, and companies have less price sensitivity than consumers do.

Disclosure - related party works on "gizmos" with such features.
Originally Posted by musicman100
Sorry I meant to say on the ES520 . You can save both wave and midi on the ES920 but why not do it on both like other manufacturers do!! It does cost that much and it is £1000 keyboard. I think kawai has made a big mistake with that.!!
I didn't know it was not possible on the ES520. I think that's so stupid... You keep the USB port on the device chassis, but don't give the user the ability to save MIDI/WAV/MP3? Utterly stupid... Thanks for the info.
Considering the actual prices of the ES520, IMHO an ES110 gives you much more value (and honesty) for its price.
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Originally Posted by musicman100
Sorry I meant to say on the ES520 . You can save both wave and midi on the ES920 but why not do it on both like other manufacturers do!! It does cost that much and it is £1000 keyboard. I think kawai has made a big mistake with that.!!
I didn't know it was not possible on the ES520. I think that's so stupid... You keep the USB port on the device chassis, but don't give the user the ability to save MIDI/WAV/MP3? Utterly stupid... Thanks for the info.
Considering the actual prices of the ES520, IMHO an ES110 gives you much more value (and honesty) for its price.

Thats what I feel Its shame I would gone for the ES520 the ES920 is to heavy and expensive for what it is so the ES520 would have been ideal for me with the weight but not having a midi file/wav i think is a massive oversight!!
Originally Posted by newer player
Oscilloscope makes do this too; some are so easy to hack that the makers must be giving a "bonus" to electronics hobbists. Professional labs will not hack the equipment as livelihoods depend on calibrated equipment, pros respect IP, and companies have less price sensitivity than consumers do.
Well, selling products to hobbyists taking apart and solder electronics and then expect them to treat their own product like a black box would be kinda contradictory. If these people would do that, they wouldn't buy an oscilloscope in the first place. So instead of throwing a hissy fit about paying customers, they give the "bonus features" away with a smirk while letting professionals shoulder the R&D cost.

Originally Posted by Gombessa
I think that's pure product differentiation. No reason why it's not possible, Kawai just disables some features that it wasn't too save for its more expensive models hoping that some people who need it will be upsold to the higher tier product.
According to spec the ES520 contains a much older sound engine than the ES920, which might simply not be able to process standard MIDI files. Is this engine even General MIDI compatible? Not according to the specs.

So what you accuse Kawai of is what they are actually not doing, but should start doing: Get rid of "HI" and "PHI" engines entirely, built HI-XL into everything and then differentiate via firmware and keyboard action.

My personal expectation would be a Pianist mode slab with a wooden action at a competitive price point (P-515) and a cheaper offer without it.
A keyboard example of that is that Kurzweil included the full PC3 ROM in later, cheaper derivative models. Even the SP4-7, for a while their entry model with 128 programs, had the ROM with the wave data for all 1074 PC3 Programs, it just had no way to select those programs. (This is why loading PC3 Programs into the 64 user slots of the SP4-7 worked.) But yes, it makes sense... it was apparently cheaper to use more of the ROM they already designed and manufactured than to design and manufacture new ROMs with less data. Making all 1074 programs available would have added *some* expense (there would have had to have been some system for navigating them), but it was presumably also a way to offer a high value board to those who wanted to spend less while maintaining further distinction from the high end boards that appeal to those able to spend more. Cannibalizing your own market for your higher profit products is not good for the bottom line. Companies aim to strike a balance of offering good value for the consumer on lower priced items while also making sure there are good reasons for people to spend more. Each set of features-per-price-point has to make sense for the buyer and the seller for the products and the company to be successful.
Originally Posted by JoeT
According to spec the ES520 contains a much older sound engine than the ES920, which might simply not be able to process standard MIDI files. Is this engine even General MIDI compatible? Not according to the specs.

Oh, that'a a good point. But I just did a quick check of another Kawai DP, the CN-39, which also uses the same PHI sound engine as the ES520: https://kawaius.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Kawai-CN39-Owners-Manual.pdf. That supports recording to MIDI as well as KS0 to USB (and MID playback too). Some older PHI DPs don't appear to have USB-to-device jacks, in which case they don't support MID recording. But as the ES520 has the feature, why would they use an old version of the PHI sound engine and modify it to support USB to device but not MIDI recording, when the current PHI sound engine already supports both the hardware and MIDI recording?
Originally Posted by JoeT
[...]According to spec the ES520 contains a much older sound engine than the ES920, which might simply not be able to process standard MIDI files. Is this engine even General MIDI compatible? Not according to the specs.[...]
The PHI engine has nothing to do with the General MIDI compatibility. My CN37 uses the PHI engine and it's fully General MIDI compatible. And the MIDI compatibility, in the case of the ES520, should be just the bare minimum to record a piano track (you don't need to have all the 128 sound effects + 47 percussion sounds of the General MIDI Standard just to record/play a piano track).
Quote
So what you accuse Kawai of is what they are actually not doing, but should start doing: Get rid of "HI" and "PHI" engines entirely, built HI-XL into everything and then differentiate via firmware and keyboard action.
Personally, I think that the PHI and HI-XL use already almost the same hardware from many years. What differentiate them is the size of the ROM used to store the samples, much bigger on the HI-XL devices, because the main piano sounds have longer samples and 1 or 2 more velocity layers. And I'm not sure that the SK-EX Rendering Engine is used on DPs with better hardware, considering that the max polyphony is about halved when you use the Pianist mode, instead of the Sound mode (there are some thread were this was discussed and confirmed). At least this was on the CA78/98. I don't know if they improved the processing power in the CA79/99 series.
Quote
My personal expectation would be a Pianist mode slab with a wooden action at a competitive price point (P-515) and a cheaper offer without it.
Considering the high prices of the current offers (ES520/ES920) I doubt Kawai will make in the near future another DP with wooden action and a price competitive with the P515. Actually the Yamaha DP has the best value for money (IMHO), but things could change if Kawai lower the prices.
Originally Posted by Otavio
Nice video. It confirms to me that the new chassis looks cheaper and less refined compared to an ES8 (of course that's just my personal opinion).
And incidentally, it looks very similar to the design of that white FP90 in the video, especially the upper part with those rounded corners!

Anyway, the speakers sound almost decent in the video. Usually when you record a digital piano sound with a microphone the result is much worse.
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Originally Posted by JoeT
[...]According to spec the ES520 contains a much older sound engine than the ES920, which might simply not be able to process standard MIDI files. Is this engine even General MIDI compatible? Not according to the specs.[...]
The PHI engine has nothing to do with the General MIDI compatibility. My CN37 uses the PHI engine and it's fully General MIDI compatible. And the MIDI compatibility, in the case of the ES520, should be just the bare minimum to record a piano track (you don't need to have all the 128 sound effects + 47 percussion sounds of the General MIDI Standard just to record/play a piano track).
My educated guess would that the component, that makes a Kawai DP General MIDI 2 compatible is also the one that processes Standard MIDI files. That's clearly missing from CN29 and ES520 and the sound engine itself might only process KSO files.

Quote
Quote
My personal expectation would be a Pianist mode slab with a wooden action at a competitive price point (P-515) and a cheaper offer without it.
Considering the high prices of the current offers (ES520/ES920) I doubt Kawai will make in the near future another DP with wooden action and a price competitive with the P515. Actually the Yamaha DP has the best value for money (IMHO), but things could change if Kawai lower the prices.
Yamaha offering that convincing package in a slab was the only reason I chose to buy another slab. Otherwise I would have stuck with my ES100. I know that only the white keys are wooden, but it's still leaps and bounds ahead of any plastic action I tried back in fall 2018. I also know that some don't like the CFX sample, but I enjoy it and it was on par with the premium Clavinova models (which I tried using headphones) and that closed the deal.
Originally Posted by JoeT
My educated guess would that the component, that makes a Kawai DP General MIDI 2 compatible is also the one that processes Standard MIDI files. That's clearly missing from CN29 and ES520 and the sound engine itself might only process KSO files.

However, that doesn't account for the fact that there are already PHI DPs that include the USB to device port and MIDI recording to USB, that predate the ES520. So it doesn't seem likely to me that this was left out due to necessity.
with the exception of potential keyboard issues being fixed, which is what they said about ca99, but it seems to be not have made a difference, the es8 still seems like a nicer more refined instrument.
Originally Posted by JoeT
My educated guess would that the component, that makes a Kawai DP General MIDI 2 compatible is also the one that processes Standard MIDI files. That's clearly missing from CN29 and ES520 and the sound engine itself might only process KSO files.
It doesn't exists a "specific component" just to "save" a file in MIDI format. Whatever processor inside our DPs, even the most basic and cheap, is capable to save a file in standard midi format rather than a proprietary one. Come on, it's just a file format... It's not something that requires some heavy computations like it could be a reverb, a modeled resonance, a special filter, etc... The hardware of the ES520 is perfectly capable of saving a piano track in standard midi format. And consider it already does it (save a song in a file) but just in a proprietary file format (KSO), so there are no technical impediments to achieve the same thing but using another file format.
We have to accept the sad but very likely truth: they just "removed" the relevant part of the code or maybe they just "disabled" the option (as well as many others, I guess) inside the firmware of the ES520 (and maybe the code is always there, inside the eprom).
Quote
[...]I also know that some don't like the CFX sample, but I enjoy it and it was on par with the premium Clavinova models (which I tried using headphones) and that closed the deal.
Well, personally, I think Yamaha has the most well balanced and clean, realistic (or less digital sounding, if you prefer) main piano sound between the 3 big manufacturers (Roland, Yamaha, Kawai). Roland piano sounds, usually, are too big in the low frequencies and a little metallic in the upper range. Kawai SK-EX (in DPs) is too midrangey and it sounds a little "dirty" at the highest velocities. All IMHO, of course.
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Nice video. It confirms to me that the new chassis looks cheaper and less refined compared to an ES8 (of course that's just my personal opinion).
And incidentally, it looks very similar to the design of that white FP90 in the video, especially the upper part with those rounded corners!

And the buttons too... highly influenced by the FP-90 design I would say wink
I've been waiting 2+ years for this update, and delaying buying an ES8.

This ES920 was going to be the one I was planning to buy. But now I'm swayed towards to the P515 which has the bright CFX also has the mellow Bosendorfer Imperial. However, the video above shows the EQ on the ES920 is quite nice.

Have to see what the price is as stock starts to come in. Since Corona, prices on many models has shot up and availability reduced. Also want to see some good reviews.

So maybe I'll be waiting a while yet!
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by JoeT
My educated guess would that the component, that makes a Kawai DP General MIDI 2 compatible is also the one that processes Standard MIDI files. That's clearly missing from CN29 and ES520 and the sound engine itself might only process KSO files.

However, that doesn't account for the fact that there are already PHI DPs that include the USB to device port and MIDI recording to USB, that predate the ES520. So it doesn't seem likely to me that this was left out due to necessity.

Can you point me to any Kawai model, which doesn't feature GM compatibility but stores SMF via USB To Device? Because I can't find one in the current product catalog.

For example going back to the CN33, the manual states:

Quote
The USB Play function recognises SMF (Standard MIDI File) format songs, however as the CN33 does not contain the full General MIDI/GM2 sound bank selection, some SMF song files may not be reproduced entirely accurately when played through the instrument

Needless to say, while a CN33 loads SMF files, it doesn't store recordings in SMF format. That feature appeared first in CN35, which does have full GM2 support. Let's have a look at the ES520 manual:

Quote
The ES520 digital piano also supports the playback of Standard MIDI File (SMF) and KSO file songs stored on a USB memory device, allowing a vast selection of widely accessible music to be heard through the instrument’s exquisite Progressive Harmonic Imaging sound engine.

Footnote:

Quote
* The ES520 digital piano does not contain the full General MIDI/GM2
sound bank selection. Consequently, some SMF song files may not be
reproduced entirely accurately when played through the instrument.

Conclusion: That's just older tech from Kawai's attic, no need to remove something, which has never been there.
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Originally Posted by JoeT
My educated guess would that the component, that makes a Kawai DP General MIDI 2 compatible is also the one that processes Standard MIDI files. That's clearly missing from CN29 and ES520 and the sound engine itself might only process KSO files.
It doesn't exists a "specific component" just to "save" a file in MIDI format.

That's wrong. The "specific component" is a software or hardware module, which is not present on the device.

Quote
Whatever processor inside our DPs, even the most basic and cheap, is capable to save a file in standard midi format rather than a proprietary one. Come on, it's just a file format... It's not something that requires some heavy computations like it could be a reverb, a modeled resonance, a special filter, etc... The hardware of the ES520 is perfectly capable of saving a piano track in standard midi format.

With my engineering background I'm able to make educates guesses, while you clearly don't have a clue what you're talking about. You seem to confuse a digital piano with a smart phone or any other general purpose computer. Please refrain from teaching someone about "heavy computations", that makes you look like a fool. DSP effects like reverb are processed by specialized hardware, which does that at ease for hundreds of samples in parallel, while being entirely useless for anything else.
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Originally Posted by JoeT
My educated guess would that the component, that makes a Kawai DP General MIDI 2 compatible is also the one that processes Standard MIDI files. That's clearly missing from CN29 and ES520 and the sound engine itself might only process KSO files.
It doesn't exists a "specific component" just to "save" a file in MIDI format.

That's wrong. The "specific component" is a software or hardware module, which is not present on the device.
Well, you didn't specify that you could mean even a "software" component. Of course that's something missing in the ES520, that's obvious.
What I was saying is that the ES520 is perfectly capable, at hardware level, to save a song in a file format different from the Kawai internal one. Now, if you (the manufacturer) put an USB pendrive input port into the unit, and you let me save songs on it, I would expect (at least) to be able to save the songs in standard midi format as well. And, honestly, I would expect to be able to save in MP3/WAV too. Without these functions, that USB port IMHO is almost useless.
If I had bought this DP and only after purchasing it had I noticed this flaw (usually you don't read the entire owner's manual "before" buying the instrument), I would have returned it immediately.

Quote
Quote
Whatever processor inside our DPs, even the most basic and cheap, is capable to save a file in standard midi format rather than a proprietary one. Come on, it's just a file format... It's not something that requires some heavy computations like it could be a reverb, a modeled resonance, a special filter, etc... The hardware of the ES520 is perfectly capable of saving a piano track in standard midi format.

With my engineering background I'm able to make educates guesses, while you clearly don't have a clue what you're talking about. You seem to confuse a digital piano with a smart phone or any other general purpose computer. Please refrain from teaching someone about "heavy computations", that makes you look like a fool. DSP effects like reverb are processed by specialized hardware, which does that at ease for hundreds of samples in parallel, while being entirely useless for anything else.
I've an engineering background myself, I know well what DSP are and I don't understand from what you would have deduced that I don't know what they are. I never mentioned DSP because there was no need to in my previous reasoning about the standard midi file format.

I don't want to teach anyone anything, I was just stating my opinions and I choose to use simple words because this is not a forum for engineers. Sorry if I look a fool to you but please, don't offend people that you don't know. Thanks.
Originally Posted by JoeT
Can you point me to any Kawai model, which doesn't feature GM compatibility but stores SMF via USB To Device? Because I can't find one in the current product catalog.

I'm not as familiar with the product lineup in this range so I'm happy to concede this point. It still seems a bit odd to me that there are multiple SKUs of PHI that don't have USB-to-device, have it but only support KS0, and which have it and support MIDI write as well. I guess what seems somewhat unintuitive to me is that all of these keyboards clearly support MIDI format, provide for MIDI-IN/OUT and have some form of translating keystrokes into MIDI and outputting MIDI realtime, so it's odd that it wouldn't be able to output that same MIDI to USB. My guess is that Kawai may tie MIDI output to input requirements, and they want to ensure they can play back ANY MIDI file, including ones with other instrument tracks that could be included in a playback file (which I guess is your GM2 tie-in). But if that's the case, then why support partial playback with missing instrument sets in the 520?
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by JoeT
Can you point me to any Kawai model, which doesn't feature GM compatibility but stores SMF via USB To Device? Because I can't find one in the current product catalog.

I'm not as familiar with the product lineup in this range so I'm happy to concede this point. It still seems a bit odd to me that there are multiple SKUs of PHI that don't have USB-to-device, have it but only support KS0, and which have it and support MIDI write as well. I guess what seems somewhat unintuitive to me is that all of these keyboards clearly support MIDI format, provide for MIDI-IN/OUT and have some form of translating keystrokes into MIDI and outputting MIDI realtime, so it's odd that it wouldn't be able to output that same MIDI to USB. My guess is that Kawai may tie MIDI output to input requirements, and they want to ensure they can play back ANY MIDI file, including ones with other instrument tracks that could be included in a playback file (which I guess is your GM2 tie-in). But if that's the case, then why support partial playback with missing instrument sets in the 520?

To me this does not matter at all playing back midi files is not the problem!!. I want a portable piano that i can gig with and also record my improvisations and playing and saving as a midi file (and wave) to take over to my computer and use them in my recordings and composing!!

Like magicpiano the usb is totalling useless if you cant do that. what use is having the KSO file format !! Unless any one knows how you can turn them into midi files without hooking the keyboard to a laptop or phone etc.
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by JoeT
Can you point me to any Kawai model, which doesn't feature GM compatibility but stores SMF via USB To Device? Because I can't find one in the current product catalog.
I'm not as familiar with the product lineup in this range so I'm happy to concede this point. It still seems a bit odd to me that there are multiple SKUs of PHI that don't have USB-to-device, have it but only support KS0, and which have it and support MIDI write as well. I guess what seems somewhat unintuitive to me is that all of these keyboards clearly support MIDI format, provide for MIDI-IN/OUT and have some form of translating keystrokes into MIDI and outputting MIDI realtime, so it's odd that it wouldn't be able to output that same MIDI to USB. My guess is that Kawai may tie MIDI output to input requirements, and they want to ensure they can play back ANY MIDI file, including ones with other instrument tracks that could be included in a playback file (which I guess is your GM2 tie-in).

There is "MIDI" and there "General MIDI" and "SMF" ("Standard MIDI File format"). Basic MIDI is just three byte messages over a serial wire, GM/GM2 is a complete hundreds-of-voices digital synthesizer implementation and SMF is a file format for a 16 track MIDI sequencer.

The accusation was that generating SMF is functionality deliberated removed from the ES520 while I pointed out, that it's completely consistent with what much older Kawai digitals offer. SMF playback has been tacked on obviously at some point, which is available on the ES520 as well, while the full recording/editing implementation is only available with Kawai's GM implementation. Even if it's hidden away like in the ES7 and ES8.

Quote
But if that's the case, then why support partial playback with missing instrument sets in the 520?

Because that's what has been available on older Kawai digitals as well.
For anyone looking to buy the now hard-to-find "classic" ES8 . . . if you're in the SF Bay Area there's a nearly new one on CL for $1200 and the seller is "willing to discuss price".
Does the es920 have a built in audio interface? If so, why would that be a benefit?
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by musicman100
Also is there any demos of the 520 i have listened to the 920 ones.

Not yet, however I plan to edit and upload them tomorrow. The contents of the audio demos will be similar to those of other models that share the same sound engine, however the ES920 and ES520 include new sounds that are not found on any other instruments.

In addition to the "stock" demo songs, I hope to add some new tracks that showcase some of these new sounds.

As far as I know, unfortunately, still no demo recordings. I'm sure, James, there are good reasons for this (workload, etc.), but just wanted to let you know that there are people out (t)here that haven't forgot. :-)
Originally Posted by Tigris90
Does the es920 have a built in audio interface? If so, why would that be a benefit?
The main benefit is that you can send to a DAW on your PC what you play on your DP, without DAC/ADC conversions, so with the best audio quality. Another cool thing is that you can hear in the internal speakers of the DP what you play on your PC (for example, the audio from a youtube video) and of course you can continue to play the keyboard while it plays sounds from your PC. And with Bluetooth Audio you don't need to use USB cables.
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Originally Posted by Tigris90
Does the es920 have a built in audio interface? If so, why would that be a benefit?
The main benefit is that you can send to a DAW on your PC what you play on your DP, without DAC/ADC conversions, so with the best audio quality. Another cool thing is that you can hear in the internal speakers of the DP what you play on your PC (for example, the audio from a youtube video) and of course you can continue to play the keyboard while it plays sounds from your PC. And with Bluetooth Audio you don't need to use USB cables.


Thank you for the explanation. So does the ES920 have a built in audio interface? I searched the manual for keywords but couldn't determine.
If it had one, I am sure Kawai would trumpet it. Yet another evidence of old technology in a new clothing.
None of these keyboards have built-in audio interfaces, but they can do some audio interface tasks. They will send midi data back and forth between the computer and the keyboard via USB or Bluetooth. And if it works at all like my ES8, you can record high-quality digital audio to a USB thumb drive and then copy that audio from the thumb drive to your computer.
I've got a question regarding the ES920's action (RH III), which, as far as I know, is the same as the ES8's action. Now, in a ES8/P-515 comparison video, JPS stated (and showed) that the RH III action is quite noisy – interestingly enough, especially when one is letting the keys bounce back (and much less when pressing them). You'll find the video segment I'm referring to here.

Can anyone who owns an ES8 confirm that this is true? Does it bother you? And could anyone, e.g. Kawai James, say whether this aspect of the RH III action was improved as well?
Originally Posted by Tigris90
Thank you for the explanation. So does the ES920 have a built in audio interface? I searched the manual for keywords but couldn't determine.
It doesn't have a built in audio interface, but it has Bluetooth Audio, so you can play the audio from a PC/smartphone/tablet and listen to it wireless on the ES920 internal speakers (or headphones)... But you cannot do the other way around, unless you connect with a cable the line-out of the ES920 to the line-in of your PC.
I read in a Piano Dreamer review that the 520 action is a little heavier than the 110 action. And the 520 is 6 pounds heavier to carry. Those two differences turn me of the 520.
Thomann Music (Germany, Switzerland, and UK) list the ES920 as "available shortly (2 to 5 days)", and the ES520 as "in stock within 5 to 7 weeks". So it's possible we'll get some early buyers's feedbacks very soon, at least for the ES920.

In the meantime, here's a video of some improvised playing on an ES920 (however, acoustic piano sounds only, which we already know):

Originally Posted by rintincop
I read in a Piano Dreamer review that the 520 action is a little heavier than the 110 action. And the 520 is 6 pounds heavier to carry. Those two differences turn me of the 520.

While going from 14W to 40W in the speaker system, with only a 6 pound increase in weight, makes the 520 far more interesting to me than the 110. Fortunately for you, the 110 is still an option.
I have an ES110 which I think I will stick with. I don't want to change to a board with a heavier action and a heavier carrying weight.
Originally Posted by rintincop
I read in a Piano Dreamer review that the 520 action is a little heavier than the 110 action. And the 520 is 6 pounds heavier to carry. Those two differences turn me of the 520.
I can't find the review you mentioned. Can you share the link?
Originally Posted by rintincop
I have an ES110 which I think I will stick with. I don't want to change to a board with a heavier action and a heavier carrying weight.
Yeah, IMHO there are no incredible benefits in upgrading from an ES110 to an ES520. And, above all, not with the current prices (2x an ES110)!
I own the ES8 and the noise doesn't distract me. In the vid that you sent, one piano is flat and one is placed at an angle, which makes the comparison unfair. The acoustic pianos make noise too, it's just determining what you can live with. I have other issues with ES8 is that some keys have more noise than others and couple of them annoy me. I think Kawai became victims of their own success-when the keywork is so good than when something goes wrong, you notice it immediately and it might bother you. Unless you sit at night and play with the sound off, listening to the key noises, it should be fine when you play the piano when it's on. I came from an old Casio background and the key rattle is much worse, so I am enjoying the ES8 for now.
Originally Posted by Mickey_
Thomann Music (Germany, Switzerland, and UK) list the ES920 as "available shortly (2 to 5 days)", and the ES520 as "in stock within 5 to 7 weeks". So it's possible we'll get some early buyers's feedbacks very soon, at least for the ES920.

I was surprised to see that Thomann Music list the ES920 as "available shortly (2 to 5 days)" while other dealers list it as available, possibly, in October or even November. So I sent an e-mail to Thomann's customer service. It is true: They do have the ES920 in stock.
Hello folks,

I'm a little late to the party, but here are some responses to your comments/queries raised so far:

Originally Posted by Keys98
Is the es520 supposed to be a replacement for the es110 (seeing as the 110 has been on back order for months on dealer websites)? If so the price jump is ridiculous.

The ES520 is not a replacement for the ES110, but a new mid-range model that is positioned between the ES110 and ES920.

Originally Posted by musicman100
The one think putting me off is the saving of the inbuilt sequencer is that it saved it on to USB with the KSO type!! What is the point of that. Why not the midi file format which then can be used to put into sibelius or other programs.

I'm trying to clarify whether or not saving to SMF is possible, and the extent to which KSO differs from SMF.

Originally Posted by Jitin
with the exception of potential keyboard issues being fixed, which is what they said about ca99, but it seems to be not have made a difference...

I'm not sure which posts you're referring to, however to my knowledge, all of the criticisms of the GFII action were addressed by GFIII. However, that's not terribly relevant to this particular thread.

Originally Posted by musicman100
Also is there any demos of the 520 i have listened to the 920 ones.

ES520 audio demos can be found on the ES520 product page of the Kawai Global site, here. The ES520 shares the same PHI sound engine with the CA49, so many of these stock MIDI-based demos will sound largely the same, although the recording process itself was a little different (ES520 demos captured from Line Out, CA49 demos captured from headphone output).

Originally Posted by Tigris90
Does the es920 have a built in audio interface?

No, however it does allow WAV and MP3 audio files to be recorded to a USB memory device.

Originally Posted by Mickey_
Is the RHIII action noisy? Has this aspect of the action been changed.
(paraphrased question)

I'm not aware of any changes to the RHIII action cushioning for the ES920. It's not perfectly silent, but I don't find it overly noisy. Some players are more sensitive to these things than others, therefore it's probably best to play the instrument in person and check for yourself.

Originally Posted by rintincop
I read in a Piano Dreamer review that the 520 action is a little heavier than the 110 action. And the 520 is 6 pounds heavier to carry. Those two differences turn me of the 520.

As with Mickey_ above, I would recommend playing the instrument in person, rather than relying too much on online reviews. The ES520 is 2.5 kilos heavier than the ES110 due to the larger case and more powerful speaker system, among other things.

Originally Posted by magicpiano
IMHO there are no incredible benefits in upgrading from an ES110 to an ES520.

This is a strange comment. Compared to the ES110, the ES520 offers: a superior keyboard action, superior piano sounds, superior non-piano sounds, a larger number of sounds, more powerful amp/speaker system, larger (more intuitive) control panel, OLED display, Bluetooth Audio, Line In, USB to Host/USB to Device connectivity, GFP-3 pedal support, and PianoRemote app support.

rintincop's needs are quite specific. He's obviously a big fan of the ES110's RHC keyboard action, enjoys the Kawai EX-based piano sounds, and requires the most portable instrument possible. For him, the additional 2.5kg in weight, and cost of part-exchanging his used ES110 for a brand-new ES520 may not be justified, however for other users, the ES520 would represent a significant upgrade over the ES110.

In preparing to write this post, I re-read the entire thread again, and noticed quite a lot of misinformed conjecture in your numerous posts. I believe you mean well, and wish to contribute useful information to this forum, however a considerable amount of what you've written in thread is incorrect and misleading.



Here are a few other general comments regarding other topics raised in this thread:

- Regarding price: Please note that the ES8 was announced 5 years ago, and its price has gradually fallen over time. The ES920 and ES520 have just been announced, are brand new, and in extremely high demand. I don't believe it's logical to make direct comparisons between the price of a product that's been on the market for 5 years, and one that was announced just a couple of weeks ago.

- Regarding technology: Please also note that just because the sound engine used by an instrument (e.g. HI-XL) has "not changed", it doesn't necessarily mean that the hardware inside the product is the same. For example, the ES920's CPU board is based on the CA59, which is completely different to that of the ES8. Comparing specification tables alone does not begin to tell the full story.

- Regarding "disabled features": The ES520 hardware is based on the CA49. That instrument does not support MP3/WAV audio playback, therefore this feature is not possible on the ES520. Suggesting that a feature has been purposely removed or disabled in the firmware simply to differentiate products is completely inaccurate and misleading.

- Regarding no "Pianist mode" on ES920: As noted above, the ES920's CPU board is based on the CA59, which also does not include "Pianist" mode. Unfortunately, the hardware required to run the "SK-EX Rendering" sound engine does not align with the target pricing of these instruments.

That's all for now. I hope this answers some (most?) of your queries. Please let me know if you have any further questions.

Kind regards,
James
x
James, I noticed you did not comment on my comments.
I can’t say I’m happy about this, for I invested many hours researching, investigating, and deconstructing the available data in order to form an objective devoid of any subjective.

It seems like you’ve paid more attention to ‘anecdotal’ perspectives rather than the highly scientific and objective research presented by yours truly.
Originally Posted by Pete14
James, I noticed you did not comment on my comments.

Yes, that’s because they were mostly nonsense.

Cheers,
James
x
Thanks, James.
Thanks, maurus.....for thanking James.
I bought my ES-110 about 3 months ago when one magically showed up at Sam Ash in Hollywood. I had waited over 2 months for an online store (or anywhere) to locate one. I'm very happy with the action. I had previously bought (and returned) the new Casio PXS-3000. That action was horribly heavy and fatiguing, and it actually HURT to play it more than 15 minutes. I can play the ES-110 for hours straight with no fatigue, and it's inspiring to play. And it weighs 25 pounds; and I bought the Casio Privia bag for it (I might switch that to the heavier / more sturdy Kawai bag, the Casio one arrived from the online store when the 110 did not...). This is about the "upper limit" for public transportation schlepping (NYC, if it's ever safe to go back there; La La Land for the moment [much less crowded subways..]).

Having read this entire post, as to the action on the 520, if it's heavier, I don't want it. And the extra 2.5 kilos would be a schlep-killer. I do want audio-in, but I see no reason why I cannot implement that myself (warranty issues aside). I also own the MP-11 (although it's 3000 miles away presently). I see no reason to turn it in for the MP-11se. The one really cool thing the Casio PXS-3000 had was Bluetooth IN. So, one could play along with YouTube videos and hear the result through the internal speakers. The better speakers on the 520 would be of interest. Whether or not they outshine my 9 pound Vox keyboard amp is unknown, but I have to schlep a separate amp anyway (for busking). And it's easier to schlep 34 pounds if those pounds are not all in one item, if that makes sense.

I'll try one in the store if / when it arrives. But if the above report of $1400 is accurate, I'll probably stick with my 110.
Hi James, thanks for the info!

In your first post you mentioned that (vs. ES8) the RHIII action has been improved (Key switches? what are key switches?) and that the acoustic piano sounds have been improved.

It would be great to know exactly what these two sets of improvements consisted in before I think about purchasing one over an ES8.

Thanks!
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by magicpiano
IMHO there are no incredible benefits in upgrading from an ES110 to an ES520.

This is a strange comment. Compared to the ES110, the ES520 offers: a superior keyboard action, superior piano sounds, superior non-piano sounds, a larger number of sounds, more powerful amp/speaker system, larger (more intuitive) control panel, OLED display, Bluetooth Audio, Line In, USB to Host/USB to Device connectivity, GFP-3 pedal support, and PianoRemote app support.[...]
You have decontextualized my post. My comment was referring to the rintincop one. I think FOR HIM there are no incredible benefits in upgrading from an ES110 to an ES520.

But, generally speaking, I think the actual prices of the ES520 make this device not yet convenient. IMHO 2x the price of the ES110 is a little too much, considering that with a very little more you can buy an MP7SE that is a product on a completely different level... I know the MP7SE is already on the market from 3 years, but it's always a great product, undeniably better than the "intermediate" ES520.

P.S.: I hope afer this post Kawai doesn't raise the prices of the MP7SE... laugh
Originally Posted by Pete14
James, I noticed you did not comment on my comments.
I can’t say I’m happy about this, for I invested many hours researching, investigating, and deconstructing the available data in order to form an objective devoid of any subjective.

It seems like you’ve paid more attention to ‘anecdotal’ perspectives rather than the highly scientific and objective research presented by yours truly.

You are not even worthy of Our time, you, little traitor of Our noble House!

[Linked Image]

laugh
Originally Posted by magicpiano
But, generally speaking, I think the actual prices of the ES520 make this device not yet convenient. IMHO 2x the price of the ES110 is a little too much, considering that with a very little more you can buy an MP7SE that is a product on a completely different level... I know the MP7SE is already on the market from 3 years, but it's always a great product, undeniably better than the "intermediate" ES520.

You don't know anything. The MP7SE doesn't have amplification, doesn't have speakers, doesn't have a furniture stand with three pedals built in available, doesn't have a acrylic glass music stand. It's more complicated to operate and it's heavier due to its rugged case.

It's a product for an entirely different market: aimed at pros, while the ES520 is aimed at beginners.
Originally Posted by JoeT
You don't know anything. The MP7SE doesn't have amplification, doesn't have speakers, doesn't have a furniture stand with three pedals built in available, doesn't have a acrylic glass music stand. It's more complicated to operate and it's heavier due to its rugged case.

It's a product for an entirely different market: aimed at pros, while the ES520 is aimed at beginners.

For a contrary view, consider that I am a professional musician, own the REALLY heavy MP-11 (no, I don't take it to gigs!), and just bought the ES-110... FOR GIGGING, a/k/a professional use (as well as home practice).

Previously, I used my 24 pound Casio PXS5 for gigs. The MP7 is nearly 50 pounds, quite heavy to schlep for gigs (although my longtime pianist (when I gig on saxophone) brings his MP6. But, this is with a station wagon and dolly.

"Weight matters" - unless one has roadies....
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by Pete14
James, I noticed you did not comment on my comments.

Yes, that’s because they were mostly nonsense.

Cheers,
James
x

Classic laugh You made my day. And James ended it like a pro with a "Cheers":

[Linked Image]

So Pete14 you fell into your own trap. Can't stop laughing about what you did to yourself.
Originally Posted by JoeT
You don't know anything.
As usual, you are always very kind and polite. What a pleasure talking with you! laugh
Quote
The MP7SE doesn't have amplification, doesn't have speakers, doesn't have a furniture stand with three pedals built in available, doesn't have a acrylic glass music stand. It's more complicated to operate and it's heavier due to its rugged case.

It's a product for an entirely different market: aimed at pros, while the ES520 is aimed at beginners.
It's true that the MP series is aimed at pro users, but that doesn't mean you cannot use it at your home. I know many people that use MP7/11SE products as home digital pianos and they are very happy. The fact they are sturdier and heavier it's a good thing for an home use where usually you place the piano inside a room and there it stays. IMHO their user interface is very easy to operate and you can make real-time changes not possible (or more difficult to achieve) with the control panel / user interface of other Kawai DPs.

Slab piano internal speakers don't sound very good to my ears. Usually, they lack in very high and very low frequencies, so their sound is always somehow mid-rangey. Therefore, to me it's not a tragedy if there are no internal speakers... I bet most home users use headphones to not disturb others. And you can always add some good monitor speakers to make the DP sound better than any internal speaker system.

The argument about the furniture stand and the glassy music stand is very... Weak... They are not the main reason to buy an ES520...

And pro or beginner doesn't matter. If I can allow a better product today, I'll buy the better product today, even if I'm a beginner, being that a better instrument (better action, better piano engine, etc.) facilitates learning for the beginner and gives more satisfaction to the expert.

So, if I need an home digital piano and with just 200euros more I can buy an MP7SE, personally I would buy the MP7SE rather than the ES520. Of course, that's just my opinion and you are free to disagree (of course, always with your usual politeness).
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Originally Posted by JoeT
You don't know anything.
As usual, you are always very kind and polite. What a pleasure talking with you! laugh
Quote
The MP7SE doesn't have amplification, doesn't have speakers, doesn't have a furniture stand with three pedals built in available, doesn't have a acrylic glass music stand. It's more complicated to operate and it's heavier due to its rugged case.

It's a product for an entirely different market: aimed at pros, while the ES520 is aimed at beginners.
It's true that the MP series is aimed at pro users, but that doesn't mean you cannot use it at your home. I know many people that use MP7/11SE products as home digital pianos and they are very happy. The fact they are sturdier and heavier it's a good thing for an home use where usually you place the piano inside a room and there it stays. IMHO their user interface is very easy to operate and you can make real-time changes not possible (or more difficult to achieve) with the control panel / user interface of other Kawai DPs.

Slab piano internal speakers don't sound very good to my ears. Usually, they lack in very high and very low frequencies, so their sound is always somehow mid-rangey. Therefore, to me it's not a tragedy if there are no internal speakers... I bet most home users use headphones to not disturb others. And you can always add some good monitor speakers to make the DP sound better than any internal speaker system.

The argument about the furniture stand and the glassy music stand is very... Weak... They are not the main reason to buy an ES520...

And pro or beginner doesn't matter. If I can allow a better product today, I'll buy the better product today, even if I'm a beginner, being that a better instrument (better action, better piano engine, etc.) facilitates learning for the beginner and gives more satisfaction to the expert.

So, if I need an home digital piano and with just 200euros more I can buy an MP7SE, personally I would buy the MP7SE rather than the ES520. Of course, that's just my opinion and you are free to disagree (of course, always with your usual politeness).

The modern mid century look of the MP series is gorgeous and timeless. To the point that even Nord copied it in their recent Nord Grand.

One can't really compare the elegant design of MP series with E series. The acoustic piano look blends into a slab digital instrument. There is simply no stage piano in the market with this design.
“So Pete14 you fell into your own trap. Can't stop laughing about what you did to yourself.”


You don’t get it, Professor Chaos, do you?


Let me explain it down to your level of wit:

I asked the question deliberately; knowing that James, if he responded at all, would not be forthcoming because I have not been too kind and/or objective towards Kawai as of lately. You get it, dum-dum?

I had the biggest laugh ever when James actually responded in exactly the way I hoped for, but what would you know, you have no capacity for nuanced irony.



P.S.

By the way, you didn’t get banned for being ‘funny’ (ask CG), but rather for being obnoxious. laugh



P.S.S.

I am not pissed off (quiet the contrary), but I felt it necessary to explain to you something that most everyone else gets.
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Originally Posted by Pete14
James, I noticed you did not comment on my comments.
I can’t say I’m happy about this, for I invested many hours researching, investigating, and deconstructing the available data in order to form an objective devoid of any subjective.

It seems like you’ve paid more attention to ‘anecdotal’ perspectives rather than the highly scientific and objective research presented by yours truly.

You are not even worthy of Our time, you, little traitor of Our noble House!

[Linked Image]

laugh

You get it, magicpiano. wink
Nope.

All the others here have used NLP to make you think that you made Kawai James to behave according to your plan. We actually put the plan into your head.

You'll realize it if you read all the messages again, but backwards.
We got help from Derren Brown.
blush
Originally Posted by Pete14
“So Pete14 you fell into your own trap. Can't stop laughing about what you did to yourself.”


You don’t get it, Professor Chaos, do you?


Let me explain it down to your level of wit:

I asked the question deliberately; knowing that James, if he responded at all, would not be forthcoming because I have not been too kind and/or objective towards Kawai as of lately. You get it, dum-dum?

I had the biggest laugh ever when James actually responded in exactly the way I hoped for, but what would you know, you have no capacity for nuanced irony.



P.S.

By the way, you didn’t get banned for being ‘funny’ (ask CG), but rather for being obnoxious. laugh



P.S.S.

I am not pissed off (quiet the contrary), but I felt it necessary to explain to you something that most everyone else gets.

You are very smart Pete and I'm so jeleous. Wish I could be in your shoes for just 1ms you know!?
Piano World should sell popcorn machines... they'd be filthy rich!
Originally Posted by magicpiano
So, if I need an home digital piano and with just 200euros more I can buy an MP7SE, personally I would buy the MP7SE rather than the ES520. Of course, that's just my opinion and you are free to disagree (of course, always with your usual politeness).

I think that's a perfectly fair comment.

The individual needs of the customer can vary quite considerably, so it's good that there are a range of different options to chose from.

Kind regards,
James
x
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by magicpiano
So, if I need an home digital piano and with just 200euros more I can buy an MP7SE, personally I would buy the MP7SE rather than the ES520. Of course, that's just my opinion and you are free to disagree (of course, always with your usual politeness).

I think that's a perfectly fair comment.

The individual needs of the customer can vary quite considerably, so it's good that there are a range of different options to chose from.

Kind regards,
James
x

James, the Rhodes soundclip stereo vibrato effect sounds like engineers at Kawai were drunk when dialing in. Maybe the jazzers who post piano reviews with do a better job smile
Originally Posted by 36251
James, the Rhodes soundclip stereo vibrato effect sounds like engineers at Kawai were drunk when dialing in. Maybe the jazzers who post piano reviews with do a better job smile

Are you referring to this clip?

The effect is quite strong, it's not personally my cup of tea, however I think it matches the song reasonably well.

James
x
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by 36251
James, the Rhodes soundclip stereo vibrato effect sounds like engineers at Kawai were drunk when dialing in. Maybe the jazzers who post piano reviews with do a better job smile

Are you referring to this clip?

The effect is quite strong, it's not personally my cup of tea, however I think it matches the song reasonably well.

James
x

Yeah, that's it. Let's agree to disagree. No producer is putting that on an album.

At 2:40 is example of proper stereo vibrato IMO (of course w/o the distortion.) I remember getting this demo at music store. It was one of those plastic records that came with a magazine.

Kawai's sound sample has a tremolo effect. Herbie's "stereo vibrato" is a panning effect. Neither one is actually "vibrato".

But I'm nitpicking and focusing on an irrelevant detail. 🤓

And the terms are sometimes messed up anyway, like e.g. an electric guitar having a "tremolo arm" which actually can only be used for vibrato and pitch bend.
Looking at the specs I'm really struggling to see that the ES920 is going to be materially better than the ES8? Same SK-EX sample set, XL Harmonic Imaging.... the speakers are an obvious upgrade, but apart from that, I can't really see that there's much difference between the two, at least to the extent that it'd be audible to 99% of the population?
Yes, and Stu did describe most of the sounds on the ES8 as "quite exceptional".

Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Originally Posted by Paul in Navarre
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Well, I agree they make good videos to get an idea of how these beasts sound, but they will never tell you they are disappointed for something in a digital piano. They have to sell ALL of them, even the most horrible thing they have in their stock! smile

In his review/overview of the ES8, Stu Harrison acknowledged there were some sounds that he felt were "a bit of a poor effort." And in his comparison of the ES8 and P515, he makes a very interesting demonstration of the difference in the actions, particularly the weight required to press the keys. At 24:51 he uses an iPhone to make an eye-opening comparison of the weight-sensitivity of the actions.

Yes, his store sells both, but he wants his customers to be aware of the advantages and disadvantages of each.

The flagship piano sound and action are 99% of what matters on a digital piano whose function is to be a piano used in a home for playing piano repertoire. If I prefer piano A to piano B on those two features, the remaining sounds of piano A can be complete garbage and I still would prefer piano A for piano repertoire.
Originally Posted by Jonesy038
Looking at the specs I'm really struggling to see that the ES920 is going to be materially better than the ES8? Same SK-EX sample set, XL Harmonic Imaging.... the speakers are an obvious upgrade, but apart from that, I can't really see that there's much difference between the two, at least to the extent that it'd be audible to 99% of the population?

How dare you, Jonesy038! To show up here and outright call the ES-920 a ‘nothing burger’!


You’ve gotten yourself one Bannon for this behavior!
Originally Posted by Jonesy038
Looking at the specs I'm really struggling to see that the ES920 is going to be materially better than the ES8? Same SK-EX sample set, XL Harmonic Imaging.... the speakers are an obvious upgrade, but apart from that, I can't really see that there's much difference between the two, at least to the extent that it'd be audible to 99% of the population?
The product number is much bigger: 920 instead 8. That's at least 115 times better.
You see, JoeT had something good to say about the ES-920; Kawai didn’t just go up 1 step, no, they went 115 levels up!

One gold star for Joe! wink
Quote
One gold star for Joe!

Man you are a hard grader. Joe shows his logic and you only give him one Gold Star shocked confused wink
The highs are much cleaner on the 920 vs the 8.
Originally Posted by emenelton
The highs are much cleaner on the 920 vs the 8.
Do you mean from the internal speakers or from headphones?
Originally Posted by Mickey_
I was surprised to see that Thomann Music list the ES920 as "available shortly (2 to 5 days)" while other dealers list it as available, possibly, in October or even November. So I sent an e-mail to Thomann's customer service. It is true: They do have the ES920 in stock.

Only two units left at Thomann Music. Bonners Music, according to their website, have 5+ (black) units in stock.

And here is the first review I found, in German. (Automatic translation by Google Translate here.)
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Kawai's sound sample has a tremolo effect. Herbie's "stereo vibrato" is a panning effect. Neither one is actually "vibrato".

Right, they're different effects, and not directly comparable.

The ES920 has "Auto Pan" effects if the player wishes to recreate the sound of the Herbie example above.

Cheers,
James
x
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Kawai's sound sample has a tremolo effect. Herbie's "stereo vibrato" is a panning effect. Neither one is actually "vibrato".

Right, they're different effects, and not directly comparable.

The ES920 has "Auto Pan" effects if the player wishes to recreate the sound of the Herbie example above.

Cheers,
James
x

I'm old school and use the vernacular from Fender Rhodes "Stereo Vibrato." Yes, I understand it is stereo panning and I assumed the Kawai sample was that.

I just checked manual for 520 and it does have autopan. This feature with a good Rhodes sound and better sound system might seal deal for me to upgrade at some point. Already happy with the acoustic sounds.
Hello Jonesy038,

Originally Posted by Jonesy038
Looking at the specs I'm really struggling to see that the ES920 is going to be materially better than the ES8?

Well, to quote myself from a couple of days ago...

Originally Posted by myself
- Regarding technology: Please also note that just because the sound engine used by an instrument (e.g. HI-XL) has "not changed", it doesn't necessarily mean that the hardware inside the product is the same. For example, the ES920's CPU board is based on the CA59, which is completely different to that of the ES8. Comparing specification tables alone does not begin to tell the full story.

[Emphasis mine.]

Originally Posted by Jonesy038
I can't really see that there's much difference between the two, at least to the extent that it'd be audible to 99% of the population?

Well, I believe 99% of the population would probably say that the ES8 already sounded really good. wink

As with the change from CAx8 --> CAx9, there have been improvements to the core piano sounds, based on user feedback. They are perhaps not the wholesale changes that some were hoping for (e.g. no "SK-EX Rendering" sound engine, due to the cost of the hardware required to realise this spec - again see explanation post linked above), but there are definite enhancements to the way the core piano sounds play, along with brand new non-piano sounds, higher quality audio hardware, and a more powerful speaker system.

Then you factor in the improved keyboard action, more intuitive control panel (including EQ faders), larger display, Bluetooth MIDI+Audio, PianoRemote app support, GFP-3 pedal support, transparent music rest, new case design, and ~6kg weight reduction, etc.

The ES8 remained an incredibly popular product, even up until it was discontinued. The ES920 retains the core qualities of the ES8, and delivers better sound, a better action, louder speakers, more functionality, and lighter weight, while keeping the price more-or-less unchanged.

My apologies if this post comes across as a little "preachy", however I hope it helps you to understand why the ES920 is "materially better than the ES8".

Kind regards,
James
x
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by myself
- Regarding technology: Please also note that just because the sound engine used by an instrument (e.g. HI-XL) has "not changed", it doesn't necessarily mean that the hardware inside the product is the same. For example, the ES920's CPU board is based on the CA59, which is completely different to that of the ES8. Comparing specification tables alone does not begin to tell the full story.

[Emphasis mine.]
I think the user is more interested in knowing what are the sonic improvements of the piano engine itself, rather than knowing (just as an example) that the new CPU has 100MHz more and/or that now it needs a little less power to do the same things as before (well, actually, I think this could be nice, being that I am always in favor of energy saving! smile ).
It would be a different thing if the piano engine now has more resonance effects that were not possible to achieve in real-time with the old CPU. Is this the case?
Quote
Originally Posted by Jonesy038
I can't really see that there's much difference between the two, at least to the extent that it'd be audible to 99% of the population?

Well, I believe 99% of the population would probably say that the ES8 already sounded really good. wink

As with the change from CAx8 --> CAx9, there have been improvements to the core piano sounds, based on user feedback. They are perhaps not the wholesale changes that some were hoping for (e.g. no "SK-EX Rendering" sound engine, due to the cost of the hardware required to realise this spec - again see explanation post linked above), but there are definite enhancements to the way the core piano sounds play, along with brand new non-piano sounds, higher quality audio hardware, and a more powerful speaker system.
I will never stress enough that Kawai should make a simple comparative of these improvements to the SK-EX piano sound. Something like a chromatic scale played on the ES8/CA48/CA58/etc. and the same chromatic scale played on the ES920/CA49/CA59/etc. to make more clear the differences (to me the new demos sound exactly as the old ones). You talk about user feedback... Exactly what improvements these users wanted?
Quote
Then you factor in the improved keyboard action, more intuitive control panel (including EQ faders), larger display, Bluetooth MIDI+Audio, PianoRemote app support, GFP-3 pedal support, transparent music rest, new case design, and ~6kg weight reduction, etc.

The ES8 remained an incredibly popular product, even up until it was discontinued. The ES920 retains the core qualities of the ES8, and delivers better sound, a better action, louder speakers, more functionality, and lighter weight, while keeping the price more-or-less unchanged.
Well, it's debatable whether the new case design is an "improvement" (regarding the looks, not the weight) but I will not discuss this further, because it is a fairly subjective thing and I think everything there was to say has already been said... But regarding the price, for now, in Europe the ES920 is 300 euros higher than the last price of the ES8. That's a +23% increase in the previous last price, so not exactly "more-or-less unchanged"...
Originally Posted by Kawai James
As with the change from CAx8 --> CAx9, there have been improvements to the core piano sounds, based on user feedback. They are perhaps not the wholesale changes that some were hoping for (e.g. no "SK-EX Rendering" sound engine, due to the cost of the hardware required to realise this spec - again see explanation post linked above), but there are definite enhancements to the way the core piano sounds play, along with brand new non-piano sounds, higher quality audio hardware, and a more powerful speaker system.

I think the mistake was adding a lower tier to the ES series. Kawai could have turned the ES8 into a ES520 with a lighter casing and simply continue to sell it unchanged. And then get some really good stuff (SK-EX rendering, compact wooden action and really punching amplification) into an ES920 a tier above. Keep the price and the weight below the MP11SE and everyone will be happy.

At the current ES line-up I'm looking as I looked at Yamaha's P-255: Four digits price tag, but nothing really special inside.
Originally Posted by magicpiano
It would be a different thing if the piano engine now has more resonance effects that were not possible to achieve in real-time with the old CPU. Is this the case?

Well, as I believe you're aware, the ES920's piano engine does now have more resonance effects than the previous generation ES8. I'm afraid I do not know the specifications of the CPU, however I doubt this is a significant detail for the vast majority of customers.

Originally Posted by magicpiano
You talk about user feedback... Exactly what improvements these users wanted?

I don't have a list to hand, unfortunately. And I doubt this kind of information can be shared publicly.

Originally Posted by magicpiano
Well, it's debatable whether the new case design is an "improvement" (regarding the looks, not the weight)

Agreed. Appearance is subjective.

Originally Posted by magicpiano
But regarding the price, for now, in Europe the ES920 is 300 euros higher than the last price of the ES8...

Please allow me to quote myself again:

Originally Posted by myself
I don't believe it's logical to make direct comparisons between the price of a product that's been on the market for 5 years, and one that was announced just a couple of weeks ago.

Cheers,
James
x
Originally Posted by JoeT
I think the mistake was adding a lower tier to the ES series.

I think it's an interesting idea - broadening-out the range, and providing customers with an alternative option at a lower price.

Not everyone can afford to purchase a €1500~1600 instrument (ES920), yet at the same time, those consumers may be willing to invest a little more than €500~600 (ES110) in order to achieve a step-up in quality and features.

Cheers,
James
x
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Not everyone can afford to purchase a €1500~1600 instrument (ES920), yet at the same time, those consumers may be willing to invest a little more than €500~600 (ES110) in order to achieve a step-up in quality and features.

I get the idea, Kawai is just copying Roland's approach. However their later introduced FP-60 sells much worse than both FP-30 (a best seller with the ES110 following behind) and FP-90 (Roland's premium slab).

It's the same for ES520 vs. ES920. The latter currently sells better than the FP-90, the former sells much worse than even the FP-60 despite being cheaper. There is a reason why Yamaha didn't bother with continuing to sell the P-255 (which could have served as their compromise model).

This is why I suggested rebranding the ES8 to ES520, which already sold at ~ 1.300 € (a cheaper casing can cut cost down to 1.200 € retail) and adding premium-tier slab at Roland's price point.
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by magicpiano
It would be a different thing if the piano engine now has more resonance effects that were not possible to achieve in real-time with the old CPU. Is this the case?

Well, as I believe you're aware, the ES920's piano engine does now have more resonance effects than the previous generation ES8.
Yes, from the manual, the ES920 added Cabinet Resonance and Hammer Noise, compared to the ES8. But I have Cabinet Resonance on my CN37 too, which has an inferior piano engine (PHI) compared to the ES8, so I wonder if really the better CPU of the ES920 was necessary to achieve those 2 more resonances or it's just... Natural advancement in hardware technology (i.e.: today, for the same price, I can buy a better CPU than what I could buy 3 years ago). Of course this is just a technical curiosity of mine that only Kawai engineers could answer to, but of course they would never do (for obvious reasons).
Quote
I'm afraid I do not know the specifications of the CPU, however I doubt this is a significant detail for the vast majority of customers.
Yes, that's what I meant in my previous post. Most customers want to know if it sounds better, not if the CPU has more MHz. wink
Quote
Originally Posted by magicpiano
But regarding the price, for now, in Europe the ES920 is 300 euros higher than the last price of the ES8...

Please allow me to quote myself again:

Originally Posted by myself
I don't believe it's logical to make direct comparisons between the price of a product that's been on the market for 5 years, and one that was announced just a couple of weeks ago.
And I agree, but it's you who started with the price comparison when you said "The ES920 retains the core qualities of the ES8 [...] while keeping the price more-or-less unchanged"... grin
Originally Posted by JoeT
I get the idea, Kawai is just copying Roland's approach. However their later introduced FP-60 sells much worse than both FP-30 (a best seller with the ES110 following behind) and FP-90 (Roland's premium slab).

It's the same for ES520 vs. ES920. The latter currently sells better than the FP-90, the former sells much worse than even the FP-60 despite being cheaper. There is a reason why Yamaha didn't bother with continuing to sell the P-255 (which could have served as their compromise model).

Where did you find the sales figures for the (newly released) ES920, and the FP-90, and the (mostly not yet available) ES520, and the FP-60?
Originally Posted by Mickey_
Originally Posted by JoeT
I get the idea, Kawai is just copying Roland's approach. However their later introduced FP-60 sells much worse than both FP-30 (a best seller with the ES110 following behind) and FP-90 (Roland's premium slab).

It's the same for ES520 vs. ES920. The latter currently sells better than the FP-90, the former sells much worse than even the FP-60 despite being cheaper. There is a reason why Yamaha didn't bother with continuing to sell the P-255 (which could have served as their compromise model).

Where did you find the sales figures for the (newly released) ES920, and the FP-90, and the (mostly not yet available) ES520, and the FP-60?

Europe's largest music store publishes sales ranks. They already take orders for the ES520.
Originally Posted by JoeT
I think the mistake was adding a lower tier to the ES series.

Depends on the use. I just requested our administrators purchase an ES 520 for our department at the university. It seemed more versatile than a "pure" stage piano given our budget, because it's lightweight, but appears to have more amp/speaker power than the ES110/FP30/P125 tier of lightweight pianos, for those times where we're not plugging into a PA system. And, at 32 pounds I can just have a soft case to transport it.
Looks like a Germany's ES-920s are deployed. One video review is up I think. Can anyone translate? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpqCiWW2-IA

There's also this other test video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcGqHA6Lyks
Originally Posted by Tigris90
Looks like a Germany's ES-920s are deployed. One video review is up I think. Can anyone translate? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpqCiWW2-IA

There's also this other test video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcGqHA6Lyks

The magic of YouTube can translate for you. Turn on captioning and set it to Autotranslate and pick your language....
Originally Posted by Tigris90
Looks like a Germany's ES-920s are deployed. One video review is up I think. Can anyone translate? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpqCiWW2-IA

There's also this other test video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcGqHA6Lyks


I can't wait for people here to get their fingers on the keys, as the quality of the critique here fragments wildly along specification arguments and lacks any objectivity from a holistic perspective.
Originally Posted by Tigris90
Looks like a Germany's ES-920s are deployed. One video review is up I think. Can anyone translate? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpqCiWW2-IA

There's also this other test video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcGqHA6Lyks

Thanks a lot for the links, Tigris90!

By the way, in the first video, they mention that they've tested the ES-520 as well, so I'm sure they'll upload a review of that one soon, too.
Originally Posted by Tigris90
Looks like a Germany's ES-920s are deployed. One video review is up I think. Can anyone translate? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpqCiWW2-IA

I don't think these guys are ever critical about anything on the videos. It's more about pointing out all the good things. "Good for the price" if nothing else.

They say something like:
- It feels and sounds good and is fun to play. Not too heavy and the key texture is nice.
- The speakers are good, also with music via Bluetooth audio.
- Good dynamics.
- The loud accents in the Beethoven piece work fine.
- The escapement simulation helps with the quiet parts in the Schubert piece.
- The e-pianos are good and better than in the ES-520(?)
- They like the overall design and the intuitive control panel, the EQ is useful to have.
- The accompaniments are fun and nice to have.

A lot is just explaining the features.

And there's again the jazz guy (Yacine) playing jazz.

But lately the other guy (Jörg) has been playing some classical too. It's like they read this forum. 😉
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Hello Jonesy038,

Originally Posted by Jonesy038
Looking at the specs I'm really struggling to see that the ES920 is going to be materially better than the ES8?

Well, to quote myself from a couple of days ago...

Originally Posted by myself
- Regarding technology: Please also note that just because the sound engine used by an instrument (e.g. HI-XL) has "not changed", it doesn't necessarily mean that the hardware inside the product is the same. For example, the ES920's CPU board is based on the CA59, which is completely different to that of the ES8. Comparing specification tables alone does not begin to tell the full story.

[Emphasis mine.]

Originally Posted by Jonesy038
I can't really see that there's much difference between the two, at least to the extent that it'd be audible to 99% of the population?

Well, I believe 99% of the population would probably say that the ES8 already sounded really good. wink

As with the change from CAx8 --> CAx9, there have been improvements to the core piano sounds, based on user feedback. They are perhaps not the wholesale changes that some were hoping for (e.g. no "SK-EX Rendering" sound engine, due to the cost of the hardware required to realise this spec - again see explanation post linked above), but there are definite enhancements to the way the core piano sounds play, along with brand new non-piano sounds, higher quality audio hardware, and a more powerful speaker system.

Then you factor in the improved keyboard action, more intuitive control panel (including EQ faders), larger display, Bluetooth MIDI+Audio, PianoRemote app support, GFP-3 pedal support, transparent music rest, new case design, and ~6kg weight reduction, etc.

The ES8 remained an incredibly popular product, even up until it was discontinued. The ES920 retains the core qualities of the ES8, and delivers better sound, a better action, louder speakers, more functionality, and lighter weight, while keeping the price more-or-less unchanged.

My apologies if this post comes across as a little "preachy", however I hope it helps you to understand why the ES920 is "materially better than the ES8".

Kind regards,
James
x

I appreciate the response.

In terms of the stuff I've highlighted in bold, none of that really goes to the quality of the flagship acoustic piano sounds (if that's the buyer's main concern), and indeed some would say they prefer the slightly heavier/sturdier construction of the ES8.

There will doubtless be some people who are very much taken by some of the additional bells and whistles you've highlighted.... but based on what I've heard from recordings taken from the line outs, and using high quality headphones, my feeling is that if you fire up the ES8 and ES920 and go straight to the default SK-EX sample, the sound is really going to be pretty much the same, with any difference almost imperceptible.


I already knew that youtube channel, but actually I never heard playing the man with the black shirt! I didn't know he plays the piano... And actually he can play very nicely these classical pieces, with good dynamics control. The Grieg's piece he plays at the end (before giving the place back to the other guy) is very good sounding with the SK-EX piano patch. But I continue to think the SK-EX sound is better suited for jazz (but expressive, warm jazz, not "banging-on-the-keys-as-strong-as-you-can" jazz).
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
I don't think these guys are ever critical about anything on the videos. It's more about pointing out all the good things.[...]
Yes, that could be true, but, I mean, the black shirt guy actually plays the piano!! That's the thing of that video, don't you understand? laugh
Yes, actually playing the piano on a review video is always a nice bonus. 😉

And I'm happy with their new jazz + classical format.
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Originally Posted by emenelton
The highs are much cleaner on the 920 vs the 8.
Do you mean from the internal speakers or from headphones?

On YouTube videos I've watch.
Originally Posted by emenelton
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Originally Posted by emenelton
The highs are much cleaner on the 920 vs the 8.
Do you mean from the internal speakers or from headphones?

On YouTube videos I've watch.
Maybe some links to compare?
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Originally Posted by Tigris90
Looks like a Germany's ES-920s are deployed. One video review is up I think. Can anyone translate? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpqCiWW2-IA

I don't think these guys are ever critical about anything on the videos. It's more about pointing out all the good things. "Good for the price" if nothing else.

I agree: "Yacine & The Black Shirt Guy" (:-)) are not a very critical combo. And they don't dig very deep. Usually, it's Jörg talking about specs, then Yacine improvising a little something. But even though these reviews, to me, don't offer much information (and are, as said, overall positive), I somehow like them. Well... "even though" may, in fact, not be correct; maybe "because" fits better. Maybe it's because, as we say in German (regarding dogs), "they don't bite, they just want to play"? :-)
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Mickey_
Originally Posted by JoeT
It's the same for ES520 vs. ES920. The latter currently sells better than the FP-90, the former sells much worse than even the FP-60 despite being cheaper.

Where did you find the sales figures for the (newly released) ES920, and the FP-90, and the (mostly not yet available) ES520, and the FP-60?

Europe's largest music store publishes sales ranks.

May I ask if you know how these rankings are calculated?

Please note that I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, just that I feel that it's a little early to be drawing conclusions, given that the products in question were announced a couple of weeks ago, and have only just started shipping in relatively limited quantities.

Kind regards,
James
x
On looks, the ES8's marketing was more to my taste. I prefer one of these pictures.. but the look of the piano doesn't have much to do with it:
https://www.kawai-global.com/mgr/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/img_es8_slide_pc_5_982.jpg
https://www.kawai-global.com/mgr/wp...g_es920_delivery_liveperfromance_930.jpg

I never got to see the ES8 in person, but I suspect up close it's not much better. It might have been nice if the front of the ESxxx was lower and kept the USB position like the MP models. But that might make the whole thing taller. I think I like the ES8's grand pedal look though. It was a nice differentiator from all the other brands.

If I end up buying one, my youngest will miss concert magic.
Hello Jonesy038,

Originally Posted by Jonesy038
based on what I've heard from recordings taken from the line outs, and using high quality headphones, my feeling is that if you fire up the ES8 and ES920 and go straight to the default SK-EX sample, the sound is really going to be pretty much the same, with any difference almost imperceptible.

That's a fair comment. The SK Concert Grand sound in both instruments is sourced from the same SK-EX recording sessions, so I would expect the overall tonal character to be largely the same.

Hopefully you will have an opportunity to play the ES920 in the near future, and will return to the forum to share your feedback.

Kind regards,
James
x
Originally Posted by Tigris90
Looks like a Germany's ES-920s are deployed. One video review is up I think. Can anyone translate? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpqCiWW2-IA

Thank you for sharing the video.

My German is not so good, however I was able to follow their explanation thanks to YouTube's audio transcribe+translate feature. wink

Cheers,
James
x
Originally Posted by MartF
If I end up buying one, my youngest will miss concert magic.

Maybe not.

Watch this space... wink

James
x
KJ: do I read in your post that PianoRemote is getting new features in the near future? Like concertmagic (not a fan) and scores (really a fan)? That would bring the new ES closer to the competition...

BTW: do any of the lesson books in Piano Remote work on the new ESs? The specs do not mention onboard books (citing from memory... Maybe I am mistaken) but was curious to know if PianoRemote adds this functionality... I've only tried it on demo mode.
Originally Posted by vagfilm
KJ: do I read in your post that PianoRemote is getting new features in the near future? Like concertmagic (not a fan) and scores (really a fan)? That would bring the new ES closer to the competition...

I believe there is scope for PianoRemote's functionality to be extended, however I'm afraid I cannot provide any details until they are formally announced.

Originally Posted by vagfilm
BTW: do any of the lesson books in Piano Remote work on the new ESs? The specs do not mention onboard books (citing from memory... Maybe I am mistaken) but was curious to know if PianoRemote adds this functionality... I've only tried it on demo mode.

Correct, the ES920/ES520 do not include built-in lessons. However, I believe this functionality will be available when PianoRemote is updated to support the ES920/ES520 (i.e. the lesson songs will be selected and controlled via the app). The current PianoRemote internal beta version does allow me to select and play lesson songs (or select Concert Magic), although I have not tested this with the ES920/ES520 myself.

By the way, if you're seeking scores for the lesson songs, there is also the PiaBookPlayer app for iOS/Android, which should function with more or less any Kawai DP. This app is available in Japan, and is being rolled-out to other markets, however I don't believe it's available in Europe yet.

Kind regards,
James
x
KJ: Thank you for your reply... I believe that in your second portion of the post you said more than you wanted ("cannot provide any details") 😊😊😊

I will check piabookplayer. But having all within the same app is preferable. I have separate solutions for displaying score (for my begginwr level, I find the most convenient to be Synthesia: has wait function, highlight, mute and loop for each hand... Who would think of that from synthesia?). I know that I will be bashed for even mentioning that name.
@KJ: I checked piabookplayer... From the title I assumed it was somehow related to piascore. Now I realize that it is a dedicated app from kawai. And you are correct. It is not available for me to download (Alfred licensing issues in europe?). As I think I mentioned before, I am not AT THIS MOMENT shopping for an upgrade, but when I will be, app integration is something I value. And it is good to see Kawai keeping app development and not forgetting Android users.
Hopefully they fixed the horrendous implementation of their damper resonance that makes half pedaling and re-pedaling something you want to desperately avoid. But it doesn't seem to bother enough people for Kawai to want to fix it. Quite shocked too that they're still using HIXL for the sound generation.
Originally Posted by Yojimbo
Hopefully they fixed the horrendous implementation of their damper resonance that makes half pedaling and re-pedaling something you want to desperately avoid. But it doesn't seem to bother enough people for Kawai to want to fix it. Quite shocked too that they're still using HIXL for the sound generation.

Wait, what's so wrong with the damper resonance? Do you mean the damper noise setting that plays the "clunk" when you pedal? I turn that off in VT on my Kawai.
No, it's a static noise resulting from the damper resonance effect getting "cut off" when half pedaling or when releasing the damper pedal quickly after engaging it. It's only noticeable when damper resonance is set to high levels. It's quite a gross noise though. It doesn't seem to be an issue with the SK-EX rendering engine though.
Another video, but only Twitter this time. I assume it's in German: https://twitter.com/Keyboardcentrum/status/1309131875424833549?s=20

I'm enjoying the look of ES920
It's Dutch.
Originally Posted by Yojimbo
No, it's a static noise resulting from the damper resonance effect getting "cut off" when half pedaling or when releasing the damper pedal quickly after engaging it. It's only noticeable when damper resonance is set to high levels. It's quite a gross noise though. It doesn't seem to be an issue with the SK-EX rendering engine though.
It's not really a cutoff, but just a fast transition from damper ON resonance to damper OFF. If it was really a cutoff you would hear an horrible high-pitched 'click' every time you release the sustain pedal.
But if you release the pedal more slowly it should sound much better even with high Damper Resonance values.
Originally Posted by Yojimbo
[...]Quite shocked too that they're still using HIXL for the sound generation.
Yes, personally if I were to make the decisions in Kawai, I would have made 3 products with the same chassis (but not 'that' chassis grin):
- ES520 (PHI engine)
- ES720 (HI-XL engine)
- ES920 (SK-EX Rendering engine)

Fortunately the HI-XL engine still produces some very nice piano sounds and it's a little improved (some more effects) compared with the ES8 generation... But it's true that many of us expected the top piano engine for the top digital piano of the ES series.
es920 getting delivered on tuesday (UK)
Originally Posted by big-vern
es920 getting delivered on tuesday (UK)

Cool, bigvern – I wish you lots of fun with it!

Will you be writing about your experience(s) here? This would be highly appreciated (by me, myself, and I, at least :-)).
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Originally Posted by Yojimbo
[...]Quite shocked too that they're still using HIXL for the sound generation.
Yes, personally if I were to make the decisions in Kawai, I would have made 3 products with the same chassis (but not 'that' chassis grin):
- ES520 (PHI engine)
- ES720 (HI-XL engine)
- ES920 (SK-EX Rendering engine)

My point exactly!

The P-515 used Yamaha’s newest sound-engine available at that moment (RGE with VRM); that alone made it a worthwhile upgrade.

Kawai decided to use their aging sound-engine and claim that they ‘added more resonances’. Who cares?

Their new engine uses modeling for resonances, and yes, this is much better.
Originally Posted by Pete14
Kawai decided to use their aging sound-engine and claim that they ‘added more resonances’. Who cares?

You, obviously. :-)

You know, Pete14... my little daughter, when she doesn't like a certain kind of food, she simply doesn't eat it, and then eats something else instead. There's so much to choose from! Isn't it funny how, when we're adult, we suddenly seem to obsess about stuff we don't like? Why is that? (Yes, some "food" for thought.)
Isn’t that what we do ‘round here?

We are all obsessing over instruments we’re not buying simply because that’s what we do.

I see you commenting on many threads; are you interested in buying any of the instruments discussed in those threads?

Incidentally, I said the exact same thing Yojimbo and magicpiano said, yet I don’t see you scolding them.

Believe it or not, my perceived ‘negativity’ towards this ES-920 is shared by many here.

We cannot allow this place to become yet another ‘positivity bubble’ because that’s exactly what manufacturers would love: for people to come here looking for not-paid-for information (negative or positive) and find exactly the same gibberish they will find @manufacturers’ website; only worded differently.
New Coke?
Originally Posted by Pete14
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Originally Posted by Yojimbo
[...]Quite shocked too that they're still using HIXL for the sound generation.
Yes, personally if I were to make the decisions in Kawai, I would have made 3 products with the same chassis (but not 'that' chassis grin):
- ES520 (PHI engine)
- ES720 (HI-XL engine)
- ES920 (SK-EX Rendering engine)

My point exactly!

The P-515 used Yamaha’s newest sound-engine available at that moment (RGE with VRM); that alone made it a worthwhile upgrade.

They just reused the CLP-575 tech with no additional R&D cost. Put an USB audio interface in and backported the SmartPianist app. (You can tell that's a backport by the fact, that the P-515 disables its button interface, when it's in "app mode". More recent instruments can be controlled by the app and the front panel in parallel.) Having a three year cycle for the Clavinova series they can do that.

I remember looking for an action upgrade, the CA17 (lower-tier wooden action, HI-XL) was already on my short-list, then the CA17 disappeared and its replacement got PHI with 192 note polyphony. Later Yamaha jumped in with their RGE/VRM NWX killer slab...

BTW: I absolutely enjoy the central display with lots of easily reachable buttons above the keyboard and I'm glad to see that the ES520/ES920 kept that design. It's a bummer that we can't have that in console pianos anymore. And please let me program these buttons with functions of my choice. I need to turn Binaural on and off all the time through a cascaded submenu, while I have a reverb button I never use.
Originally Posted by Pete14
We are all obsessing over instruments we’re not buying simply because that’s what we do.

...and then we forget to practice on the ones we have! But, yes, of course, you're right. :-)

Originally Posted by Pete14
I see you commenting on many threads; are you interested in buying any of the instruments discussed in those threads?

My GAS is softly, yet hauntingly whispering "yes!", my wallet is firmly proclaiming "no!" – and won't back down. (No, it won't back down.)

Originally Posted by Pete14
Incidentally, I said the exact same thing Yojimbo and magicpiano said, yet I don’t see you scolding them.

You are probably right. With me, it's often also about the way something is being said. And I remember you were the first one commenting on Kawai James's initial posts, in your second comment already stating you were looking forward to "the best bashing festival ever to take place @ PianoWorld". So, yes, sure, many others are very critical as well (why shouldn't they be?), but I guess I just couldn't forget that comment which I found, let's say, "unnecessary".

Originally Posted by Pete14
We cannot allow this place to become yet another ‘positivity bubble’ because that’s exactly what manufacturers would love: for people to come here looking for not-paid-for information (negative or positive) and find exactly the same gibberish they will find @manufacturers’ website; only worded differently.

Hey, I'm no fanboy either! I have no reason to defend Kawai, and, as I wrote to you before in my last private message, I'm sure Kawai wouldn't need nor want my help anyway. "Positivity bubble"? Doesn't have to be, sure! "Negativity bubble (including more than a pinch or two of cynicism)"? Well, I guess that's where are differences start. :-)

Hm, thinking about it again, my earlier comment may have been "unnecessary" too. If that is the case, I'm sorry. Maybe there has simply been enough negativity in my life recently...
Originally Posted by Mickey_
Originally Posted by Pete14
”...And I remember you were the first one commenting on Kawai James's initial posts, in your second comment already stating you were looking forward to "the best bashing festival ever to take place @ PianoWorld". [quote=Pete14]

Oh yeah, I ‘member that; we used to have so much fun back then. The good ol’ days!😎

However, I do see how that might seem unnecessary and somewhat negative. There is no reason to have a bashing festival at the expense of Kawai; that is wrong, Pete!

Of course, those things are meant in jest, in the same way I do not intend to ‘turn the ES-920 upside down and use it as an ironing board’.

....but please do continue the conversation; I’ll try to hang by the sidelines as an observer. Perhaps I’ve said enough already; it’s time for others to chime in.😔
Originally Posted by magicpiano
But it's true that many of us expected the top piano engine for the top digital piano of the ES series.
This is true. Once in my message, opening a new topic of discussion, I expressed my wishes/suggestions. But in the end, none of this was implemented, and this model completely failed to meet my expectations. It also came out more than two years later than I expected. And even in a degraded design for my taste. So for me, this is a complete disappointment.

Unfortunately, if you want to get better action (at least GFC) and sound engine, you only have to look at console versions of Kawai pianos (yes, I don't mention MP11SE model with an outdated GF action, that has a known slip tape problem, and not the best sound engine).
I'm thinking of replacing my Kawai AHA III action some day. Maybe this day has come with the ES920.

All the other new features of the new ES-series are uninteresting to me. Important would be just the RH III action (and the slab-formfactor and -weight).

I can't find information, if the RHIII action is using "slip tape" at the friction-point between key and hammer? (blue circle in the picture)

Thanks
[Linked Image]
No need for "slip tape", the plastic itself is slippery. Kawai allegedly fixed the issues with RHIII that caused contacts to click and occasionally play loud notes so, assuming the latter is true, no reasons for concern. BTW I understand they redesigned the actions that use the infamous tape, replacing it with a piece of plastic.
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Mickey_
Where did you find the sales figures for the (newly released) ES920, and the FP-90, and the (mostly not yet available) ES520, and the FP-60?

Europe's largest music store publishes sales ranks. They already take orders for the ES520.

Thanks, JoeT!

I'm wondering whether these sales ranks are correct. For example, right now, Thomann Music are stating that there's only 1 unit of the ES-920 left... but they have been stating this for the two or three days now. Either this is true, but then, the ES-920 isn't selling as well as they want us to think, or it's not true, but then, why should we trust their sales figures? Of course, there's also a third option, and that is: I'm drawing a mental blank. :-)

What do you think?
A few sound samples. Sounds really good IMO. I know, cant truly judge a DP by a YouTube video.

Well, from what I can hear, absolutely no differences from an ES8 in the main piano sound.

Jump at 1:24 in the following video to hear the ES8 SK-EX and tell me if you hear less quality in its sound:

If I ever find a need for piano with integrated speakers, I will buy ES8 again. Or maybe ES920. For solo playing with headphones VST beats whatever is out there, but for playing with other people the sophistication of the sound does not matter so much. And ES8 used to sound sooo good when I was playing with others.

The new ES video just reminded me how Kawai nailed Rhodes sound. To be honest, because of its warmness I like it more than the one from Korg Grandstage or any VST I've tried.
Does the es920 have binaural recordings for headphones? Or does yamaha only do that.
If you believe in a sales ranking from a retailer, I have a nice bridge to sell you...

BTW, have you noticed the sales ranking of the pianos from their own thomann brand? It's an eye opener, isn't it?
Originally Posted by EVC2017
No need for "slip tape", the plastic itself is slippery.

I hope you are right. On the other hand, what are these black parts on the foto of the Demo-RHIII?

[Linked Image]
Originally Posted by infermitydood
Does the es920 have binaural recordings for headphones? Or does yamaha only do that.
No binaural samples. Just a sort of "surround" effect for headphones, called SHS.
I have no idea. Next time I disassemble my ES8 I will take a closer look (and take pictures smile ). But I don't believe it is any kind of tape, maybe a different type of plastic to make the part of the key that presses the lever beneath more rugged (just guessing). The tapes make the actions where they are used sticky after not too long. I have some complaints about my ES8, sticky keys are not one of them.

Originally Posted by Myon
Originally Posted by EVC2017
No need for "slip tape", the plastic itself is slippery.

I hope you are right. On the other hand, what are these black parts on the foto of the Demo-RHIII?

[Linked Image]
Originally Posted by EVC2017
I have some complaints about my ES8, sticky keys are not one of them.

May I ask you what these complaints are about, EVC2017, and whether those issues may be resolved now, in the ES920 (and, possibly, the ES520)?
Mickey, if you search the forum you will find some of my posts about the keys starting clicking after a couple of weeks. Besides clicking, there were loud notes on occasion. I replaced the contact strips (the "sensors") and, after that, the loud notes are gone (for the time being) but the clicks returned after some time. I got "used" to them (by resignation). Some other folks have had the same issues with their RHIII based DPs.

My understanding is Kawai fixed the design and that involved redesigning the contact strips AND the PCB where they go and new DPs, including ES920 should be using them and so, hopefully, not show these issues.
Thanks a lot, EVC2017!
Yet, another vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TjMvk1N6ks
Add a little more reverb and I think the cleaner and underrated EX piano sound patch is so much better than the mellow SK-EX for some genres:

Quote
ES920: New Features & Improvements (compared to ES8)
- IMPROVED: Responsive Hammer III keyboard action with redesigned key switches
[...]

Is something known already about those "redesigned key switches"?
Are they still flat as in the ES8 or maybe with a "nose" as in the Grand Feel Compact?

[Linked Image]
Is anybody on this forum planning to ditch / trade their ES-110 for the 520? (I recently bought the 110...). Thanks.
Nah.. You'd only go Es110, CA99, Novus 10.

Everything in between is pointless. Just save up so you get to one of those break points.

Exceptions are the stage pianos, which fill specific roles.
Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
Is anybody on this forum planning to ditch / trade their ES-110 for the 520? (I recently bought the 110...). Thanks.

I did have the es110 but swapped that for a dexibell p7 but looking at the 520/920 to replace it. just wondering if I can cope with the 17 kg weight!! The 520 is the same as my P7 so that would be fine but just thinking if it worth getting the 920 !!
Originally Posted by jeffcat
Nah.. You'd only go Es110, CA99, Novus 10.

Everything in between is pointless. Just save up so you get to one of those break points.

Exceptions are the stage pianos, which fill specific roles.

This is really an elitist viewpoint. An amateur player may never reach those levels of instrumentation, so there is no reason why not to desire an upgrade in your budget and at your level. I would go to the ES920 if it's in the budget, but no reason not to go to the ES520. The resale on your ES110 is probably pretty good.
Originally Posted by jeffcat
Nah.. You'd only go Es110, CA99, Novus 10.

Everything in between is pointless. Just save up so you get to one of those break points.

Exceptions are the stage pianos, which fill specific roles.
Naaah... Yamaha P45 or... an acoustic grand Steinway Model D-274 "Horowitz approved". Anything in between is pointless, so if you don't have the money I suggest you the lottery. laugh
I've owned the MP11 for several years. I bought the ES-110 a few months ago, as I'm stuck 3000 miles away from said MP11, which is near NYC. 25 pounds is all I can deal with in this La La Land house, schlepping outside the house and back in after practice outside (and eventual Amtrak schlepping cross-country once it's safe to do so). I bought the Casio PXS 3000 before the 110 (and returned it; horrible keybed, caused awful fatigue after about 15 minutes of playing [but lots of cool features]). I really like the 110's keybed; I can play all day. I do wish it had audio it; it's great for practicing along with YouTube videos. My current workaround is using my $200 Vox keyboard amp (which is great, BTW, < 10 pounds). I'll probably do brain surgery on the 110 and add an audio in at some point; it doesn't appear to be too difficult.
Originally Posted by Pete14
Isn’t that what we do ‘round here?

We are all obsessing over instruments we’re not buying simply because that’s what we do.

I see you commenting on many threads; are you interested in buying any of the instruments discussed in those threads?

Incidentally, I said the exact same thing Yojimbo and magicpiano said, yet I don’t see you scolding them.

Believe it or not, my perceived ‘negativity’ towards this ES-920 is shared by many here.

We cannot allow this place to become yet another ‘positivity bubble’ because that’s exactly what manufacturers would love: for people to come here looking for not-paid-for information (negative or positive) and find exactly the same gibberish they will find @manufacturers’ website; only worded differently.

es920 ordered and arriving tuesday. I appreciate all the comments, we are all adults and synthesise them with our own knowledge and expereince. I wouldnt want either side shut down or stymied, its a free world...
Originally Posted by big-vern
es920 ordered and arriving tuesday. I appreciate all the comments, we are all adults and synthesise them with our own knowledge and expereince. I wouldnt want either side shut down or stymied, its a free world...
Congratulations! smile

Personally I don't think the ES920 is a bad product. It's just that after 5 years from the ES8 (which was indeed a very good DP, with a classy look too) the users who knows all its positive (many) and negatives (few) would have expected something more from the successor of such a great DP.

So be happy! You bought a very good DP. Maybe you paid a little more of its value, being that the product just come out on the market, but if you were in a hurry to get it, you love how the Kawai DPs sound and you have the money, why not? wink
Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
Is anybody on this forum planning to ditch / trade their ES-110 for the 520? (I recently bought the 110...). Thanks.

Yes indeedy. I was impressed with the choices made by Kawai to meet the $700 USD price point, its obvious it's a piano first instrument, even including a good pedal. I think they succeeded. But besides its extremely likable action, its middling and even deficient in many ways-
- no analog in miniport
- no usb port
- sound system compromised by having the speaker down firing
- no BT music streaming to it
- no screen, and learning the system meant memorizing a lot of button and key presses
- etc.


Here''s a post I wrote at KC:
I've been kinda obsessed since the ES520 has been announced. I LOVE the action on my ES110, but as a bare bones model it didn't even have an aux input or USB connectivity. I made a wish list for the ES110, the idea being that they already had a wonderful action, so just add to that. They've included pretty much everything on my upgrade list AND they went with an upgraded action they had already developed for the KDP110 console. Of course the price went from $699 to $1,199, and it weighs more, 32 pounds compared to 26. Such is life! Besides being cheaper, the 520 is lighter than the 920, which has a different action.

ES110 >>>> ES520
> $699 >> $1,199

> 26 lbs >> 32 pounds

> RHC, 2 sensors >> RHC II, Responsive Hammer Compact II, 3 sensors, see below

> No >> Streaming BT audio from your smart device

> No >> USB to host device

> 14 watts >> 40 watts sound system

> 9' concert EX >> SK-EX and EX, the 110 pianos were variations of one piano, the 520 uses 2 different pianos

> No >> audio in on minijack

> 19 sounds >> 34 sounds

> None >> 128 x 64 pixel OLED

> No >> Spatial Headphone Sound, SHS

> No >> optional 3 pedal unit, GFP-3, does NOT require the furniture stand! Same one included with MP11SE

> Some Piano adjustment >> [censored] ton of piano adjustment: see below from manual

> BT MIDI >> BT MIDI

> Foot pedal >> supports half-pedaling like the ES110 F-10H pedal, quality pedal, included

From PianoDreamers.com: PianoDreamers.com review of KDP110, which uses same action as ES520

"While this is an entry-level piece, Kawai has tried to make the keyboard feel nearly as good as premium pianos, and the RHCII is not an entry-level action. For the price, it has an impressive feel overall and adds significantly to the quality of the instrument.
This action is a 3-sensor version of the ES110’s action, which itself was designed based on the RHIII but meant to be compact. The fact that it is 3-sensor improves its responsiveness, particularly when you are playing passages that require a lot of speed and a light touch. I’ve also noticed that the RHCII is less bouncy, quieter, and a little bit heavier compared to the RHC, which gives it a more substantial feel."
So.... it sounds like the PianoDreamers review summary of the action is it feels heavier as in less rebound bouncy and more substantial.

I know some people like the extremely fluid action of the 110, but I am hopeful, am imagining that it feeling "more substantial" on the KDP110 means perhaps a bit more stately, but still very limber and agile. I suspect it'll be easy for us ES110 enthusiasts to adapt to. I'ma thinkin positive!
Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
Is anybody on this forum planning to ditch / trade their ES-110 for the 520? (I recently bought the 110...). Thanks.

I am staying with my ES110 unless the new 520 action is lighter.
Originally Posted by Randyman
So.... it sounds like the PianoDreamers review summary of the action is it feels heavier as in less rebound bouncy and more substantial.

I know some people like the extremely fluid action of the 110, but I am hopeful, am imagining that it feeling "more substantial" on the KDP110 means perhaps a bit more stately, but still very limber and agile. I suspect it'll be easy for us ES110 enthusiasts to adapt to. I'ma thinkin positive!

I'm reasonably sure pianodreamers is a copy writer, not an actual reviewer.
Originally Posted by musicman100
Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
Is anybody on this forum planning to ditch / trade their ES-110 for the 520? (I recently bought the 110...). Thanks.

I did have the es110 but swapped that for a dexibell p7 but looking at the 520/920 to replace it. just wondering if I can cope with the 17 kg weight!! The 520 is the same as my P7 so that would be fine but just thinking if it worth getting the 920 !!

Why did you switch 110 > P7? I'm not doing 37.5 pounds; 25 (110) is more than enough to schlep. My MP11 at 80 pounds or so stays put.
Originally Posted by rintincop
Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
Is anybody on this forum planning to ditch / trade their ES-110 for the 520? (I recently bought the 110...). Thanks.

I am staying with my ES110 unless the new 520 action is lighter.

I could see that for you. I don't need lighter than my 110. The better speakers would be cool, but since I have to schlep another, separate amp anyway, it's not that big of a deal for my particular applications. Audio in is fixable with a simple port addition and some solder, a drill, and a little time. I hear the 520's action is slightly heavier, but this is "hearsay." Hopefully somebody will actually play this thing and report.
I bought a ES110 3 weeks ago and I'm still in the 30 day return period from Gear4music, so I ordered the ES520 today and will have until the end of the week to compare them and decide which one to return. Let's see if it's worth the price bump, I'll post my thoughts after I've tried it.
Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
Originally Posted by musicman100
Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
Is anybody on this forum planning to ditch / trade their ES-110 for the 520? (I recently bought the 110...). Thanks.

I did have the es110 but swapped that for a dexibell p7 but looking at the 520/920 to replace it. just wondering if I can cope with the 17 kg weight!! The 520 is the same as my P7 so that would be fine but just thinking if it worth getting the 920 !!

Why did you switch 110 > P7? I'm not doing 37.5 pounds; 25 (110) is more than enough to schlep. My MP11 at 80 pounds or so stays put.

I switched because I play with a choir of about 40 members and the speaker on the es110 was to quiet. The speaker on the es110 was only 7W on the p7 it is 35W so i can play without using a speaker at rehearsals. I play with a band most of the time so need to be loud. It saves setting up a separate speaker and carry one .

the es520 and 920 are 20W so hopefully will be loud enough.
Dear Gustavo Guerra,

We need you! Please tell us about how different the actions are. I also ask that you compare them with no sound (volume off) , that way you can feel the difference purely on a physical level. I suffer from tendinitis and am always looking for a lighter action. I currently play a ES110 action.

Thank you,
RinTin
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
I bought a ES110 3 weeks ago and I'm still in the 30 day return period from Gear4music, so I ordered the ES520 today and will have until the end of the week to compare them and decide which one to return. Let's see if it's worth the price bump, I'll post my thoughts after I've tried it.

Being that you bought the 520 from the same place, right?, perhaps they'd extend the 30 days by 15 days? Many places have a 45 day return window these days.

Yes please, direct comparison!!!
Originally Posted by Myon
...what are these black parts on the foto of the Demo-RHIII?

[Linked Image]

They are referred to as key "bushes", small parts that help to reduce action noise.

Kind regards,
James
x
Originally Posted by musicman100
I switched because I play with a choir of about 40 members and the speaker on the es110 was to quiet. The speaker on the es110 was only 7W on the p7 it is 35W so i can play without using a speaker at rehearsals. I play with a band most of the time so need to be loud. It saves setting up a separate speaker and carry one .

the es520 and 920 are 20W so hopefully will be loud enough.

Check with your phone using an sound meter app, how many Decibels is the es110 outputing peak @ maximum volume.

On android sound analyzer is a good app, and it's completely free with no ads. There should be an ios version as well not sure.
Originally Posted by Kawai James
They are referred to as key "bushes", small parts that help to reduce action noise.

Thank you. These small black parts have to withstand friction and the vertical force of the key post at the same time, so the black material cannot be rubber or foam, I guess. Remains plastic or felt, hmm.

Is there lubricant / grease at this contact point of the RHIII? Then it can't be felt and should be black plastic (as it looks like on another foto, but I'm not sure).
I'm sorry I don't know, however I don't believe this area of the keyboard action has ever caused any problems.

Kind regards,
James
x
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
I bought a ES110 3 weeks ago and I'm still in the 30 day return period from Gear4music, so I ordered the ES520 today and will have until the end of the week to compare them and decide which one to return. Let's see if it's worth the price bump, I'll post my thoughts after I've tried it.

I look forward to your observations. I bought my ES 110 about 3 months ago.
Originally Posted by musicman100
Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
Originally Posted by musicman100
Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
Is anybody on this forum planning to ditch / trade their ES-110 for the 520? (I recently bought the 110...). Thanks.

I did have the es110 but swapped that for a dexibell p7 but looking at the 520/920 to replace it. just wondering if I can cope with the 17 kg weight!! The 520 is the same as my P7 so that would be fine but just thinking if it worth getting the 920 !!

Why did you switch 110 > P7? I'm not doing 37.5 pounds; 25 (110) is more than enough to schlep. My MP11 at 80 pounds or so stays put.

I switched because I play with a choir of about 40 members and the speaker on the es110 was to quiet. The speaker on the es110 was only 7W on the p7 it is 35W so i can play without using a speaker at rehearsals. I play with a band most of the time so need to be loud. It saves setting up a separate speaker and carry one .

the es520 and 920 are 20W so hopefully will be loud enough.

OK, but these are very different instruments otherwise. FYI / FWIW, I use a $200, 9 pound Vox keyboard amp that is FIFTY watts, sounds great for piano, and is easy to schlep along with a 25 pound keyboard. Of course, watts don't always = watts, so 20 versus 50 may not mean much. But it's loud and clean, has mutlple inputs, bass, mid and treble controls, and can run on batteries (with Rav Power, as can the ES 110).
Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
FYI / FWIW, I use a $200, 9 pound Vox keyboard amp that is FIFTY watts, sounds great for piano, and is easy to schlep along with a 25 pound keyboard. Of course, watts don't always = watts, so 20 versus 50 may not mean much. But it's loud and clean, has mutlple inputs, bass, mid and treble controls, and can run on batteries (with Rav Power, as can the ES 110).

Am I correct in thinking that the amp you're referring to is the VX50KB?

It has pretty nice specs for the cost and weight. How well are the ES110's stereo piano sounds reproduced by the single speaker?

Kind regards,
James
x
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
FYI / FWIW, I use a $200, 9 pound Vox keyboard amp that is FIFTY watts, sounds great for piano, and is easy to schlep along with a 25 pound keyboard. Of course, watts don't always = watts, so 20 versus 50 may not mean much. But it's loud and clean, has mutlple inputs, bass, mid and treble controls, and can run on batteries (with Rav Power, as can the ES 110).

Am I correct in thinking that the amp you're referring to is the VX50KB?

I googled myself, too, and immediately fell in love with the design of this amp. What a beauty!

Speaking of appearances, here's another video on the ES920. It's, once more, in German, but that will not matter to anyone not speaking German, as it's not a review (the sales manager doesn't say much more than that he likes the rhythm section feature, and then starts playing). But... you get to see the ES920, including music rest, from a few new angles. :-) So, to be more precise, it's not really a video on, but rather a video of the ES920.

Originally Posted by Kawai James
I'm sorry I don't know, however I don't believe this area of the keyboard action has ever caused any problems.

I don't know too, but the Nord Grand action has lubricated "key bushings" on the attached picture. Its RH-N action is a modified RH-III, so it is possible the grease is just one of the modifications.

[Linked Image]
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
FYI / FWIW, I use a $200, 9 pound Vox keyboard amp that is FIFTY watts, sounds great for piano, and is easy to schlep along with a 25 pound keyboard. Of course, watts don't always = watts, so 20 versus 50 may not mean much. But it's loud and clean, has mutlple inputs, bass, mid and treble controls, and can run on batteries (with Rav Power, as can the ES 110).

Am I correct in thinking that the amp you're referring to is the VX50KB?

It has pretty nice specs for the cost and weight. How well are the ES110's stereo piano sounds reproduced by the single speaker?

Kind regards,
James
x


Yes, that is the amp. It's a tube amp. I also own the much bigger Roland Street Cube (which does not sound awesome for acoustic piano but is otherwise the best busking amp out there) and the Roland KC-220 (a dedicated piano amp that runs on batteries, which sounds great for piano, has 2 6.5" woofers and 2 1" dome tweeters). In order for piano, KC-220 > Vox KB50 > Street Cube. The Vox is a close second to the KC-220, weighs a lot less and is a lot easier to schlep (but needs a Rav Power for batteries; the Roland runs on AAs). I brought it to LA for my one month vacation that turned out to be a move due to Covid. I use the Vox outside, where having a stereo signal doesn't really matter, due to sound disbursement, no walls, etc. When practicing, having internal keyboard speakers is great, due to the sound being right at you and coming from the keyboard, and the stereo effect is great. But for outside, and also for a gig, a separate amp is fine, even a mono one. I've not noticed any problems (phase, etc.) when using the Vox. It has 3 inputs, so I plug left and right in and I assume it sums them to mono internally. This way, I can use the Vox as a busking or solo gig amp (to play background rhythm section) and also input a keyboard, and it has individual volume controls for each channel, so I can mix them perfectly.
Thanks for the additional info Skyscrapersax. It sounds like the KB50 is a nice little amp.

Cheers,
James
x
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Thanks for the additional info Skyscrapersax. It sounds like the KB50 is a nice little amp.

Cheers,
James
x

It is! One of the few that actually sounds good for acoustic piano. I forgot to mention that it also has a headphone out, line out (for additional speakers) and 1/8 aux in.

- Jeff
Peeling off protective foil makes such a beautiful sound! Aaaah...

First USA prices I've seen:

https://www.adorama.com/kwes520b.ht...9RoCVP0QAvD_BwE&utm_source=adl-gbase

https://www.clvmusic.com/B/20090900...J41c7mZartxVtSInRnU6v5BYH7BoC1EIQAvD_BwE

Note: these are not the "big" sellers. They don't list it yet.

BTW, doe the SC-2 case fit the 520?
Originally Posted by Mickey_
Peeling off protective foil makes such a beautiful sound! Aaaah...



Three questions:

1. Where did you buy it?

2. Price?

3. Is the action lighter than the ES-110? If you've nnot poayed one of those, how would you describe the action?

Thanks.
Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
Three questions:

This is not me in the video. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Originally Posted by Mickey_
Peeling off protective foil makes such a beautiful sound! Aaaah...


I'm disappointed they didn't do a slow-motion peel-off, a la Techmoan, though. wink

It looks like this chap is able to hold the ES520 pretty easily with one hand/arm, too...

Cheers,
James
x
AZ Piano Reviews does the ES920...https://azpianonews.blogspot.com/2020/09/kawai-es920-review-digital-piano.html
Hmmm.... I just read the AZ Piano review of the ES920, and I kind of wondered if he actually had one to play, being that most of the info was available thru info from Kawai. He mostly just added his longish embellishments that aim to make things understandable for the beginner. He really had nothing but praise, essentially saying Kawai took what already worked well in the ES8 and added some cool features and speakers.

For you Yammi P515 lovers, he clearly says (without naming names) that the ES920 does it better- action and piano sound.

I'm excited about these new boards and I'm glad he liked the ES920, but didn't really enjoy the review.

But it matters not- I've developed a near-sighted vision for the ES520, and while compelling in its own right, the weight and extra cost of the ES920 has disqualified it in my mind as a serious buy.
Originally Posted by Randyman
Hmmm.... I just read the AZ Piano review of the ES920, and I kind of wondered if he actually had one to play, being that most of the info was available thru info from Kawai. He mostly just added his longish embellishments that aim to make things understandable for the beginner. He really had nothing but praise, essentially saying Kawai took what already worked well in the ES8 and added some cool features and speakers.

It's the usual "review blog" scam. Just that it doesn't link to an Amazon shop for commission and lists a phone number and email address instead.

Quote
For you Yammi P515 lovers, he clearly says (without naming names) that the ES920 does it better- action and piano sound.

I clearly say that too, I've never seen a live ES920, but here have my expert opinion. wink
My 520 finally arrived today. It was supposed to arrive on Tuesday but the delivery company messed up and lost the package, then it got the packages damaged, so I finally got another one delivered this morning and now have the ES110 and the ES520 side by side, both with their respective stands, and tested them for a few hours.

For context, I'm a beginner player, when I was a teenager I had keyboard lessons for a couple of years, always with unweighted keys, and I hadn't played for 20 years, and only 6 months ago I got my first digital piano with weighted keys and started learning to play piano for real at the beginning of the Covid quarantine. Initially I got a Roland FP-10, but after 5 months I felt that key action was a bit heavy for me as a beginner, and I also found that I really wanted to have a rhythm function built-in to use as a nicer metronome, and always playing around on the phone to get backing tracks was too fiddly. So I switched it to a Yamaha P125. The sounds were comparable, and the rhythm and accompaniment features were really great. But I didn't like the keys so much, felt too plastic and too shiny white, fingerpring magnets, and also even though they were lighter than the Roland, they felt too springy, like pushing your fingers back up after you pressed them. So I returned it after 2 or 3 days and got an ES110. I found the piano sounds better, the rhythm function more basic but still enough for what I wanted, and I really liked the key feel. Only disadvantages was the worst UX, a hardcoded split point, and missing some sounds like the Clavi and the Wood Bass combined with the Cymbal sound. The church organ was also not as nice/

So here's are my thoughts on the comparison between the ES110 and the ES520:

General build and features:
* Even with the extra 2.5kg and the longer depth, it still doesn't seem prohibitively heavy to carry. It's not my case, but for people that are going to be transporting it a lot, it's much easier to detach and reattach to the stand, as it has 4 easy to turn knobs that you can screw easily with your hands, rather than the standard screws of the ES110 which definitely require a screwdriver
* The music rest is about the same side, but it has a slightly more upright angle and it wobbles a lot less when you put a lot of stuff on it. The downside it that it's slightly more far away from your eyes due to the extra depth of the ES520, but it's at the exact same height.
* Attached to the stand, the keys sit at the same height as the ES110, but it's about 2cm shorter on the bottom, so for tall people there's a bit more space for your knees (not my case)
* The fact that it's deeper than the ES110, and also a bit more straight, it means you can easily rest a tablet in tent position or a small laptop on top of the speaker grill to watch videos while you play (in the case where you don't want to put it on the music rest as you also have some sheet music there). With the ES110 I had to use a tripod to hold my tablet, which was fiddly. I realize this probably won't matter for most people but for anyone doing online piano lessons it's nice
* Also very nice for people doing online lessons, or using iRealPro or another app to do backing tracks, is the Bluetooth audio functionality. In the evenings when using headphones I had to use a small mixer to get the piano and the laptop/tablet/phone sound together in my headphones, now I can just connect to Bluetooth audio, no need for a the mixer and 3 cables. Even for general music listening, getting Spotify to play on the ES520 speakers is convenient, it almost makes the Amazon Echo Plus I have on the living room obsolete. Now, if the ES520 add audio recording to MP3 like the ES920 and it could record the combination of what's streaming and what you play on top that would be a really nice feature.
* Even though I had memorized most of the function shortcuts on the ES110, it is really nice to have buttons for everything. The only downside is the rhythms. It has the exact same 100 rhythms the ES110 did, however on the ES110 I could memorize that the Swing was 74 and the Bossa Nova was the 81 and go to that directly, now I have to press the up/down button a lot. I can save the most used rhythm in the startup settings, but if I do use the metronome, it resets it to rhythm 1, which is very very annoying, so if I alternate between using the Swing Rhythm and the metronome on 1/1, I can only save one of those in the startup settings, and to switch between I have to either turn off and on again to get back to the saved startup option, or press the up/down button a lot.
* You can change the split point when using split mode, which very annoyingly the ES110 couldn't, that's a welcome fix
* Changing or turning off off the effects, reverb and amp is nice, though I don't really have a use for all the other extra configuration, but some more advanced players might, there's a ton of options.
* The built-in speakers are a little bit better than the ones on the ES110, but it's not a major difference. They go a bit louder, and they seem a bit better on the lows but the ones on the ES110 were already decent.
* There's a button in the back to turn off the speakers when using line out instead of a function key to do that like the ES110
* One of the headphone connectors is a mini jack, it's convenient to have one connector of each kind rather than two full size ones like the ES110
* There's a bunch of settings to tweak the headphone output, but I honestly couldn't notice any difference between all those modes using my Sennheiser HD 599 open headphones. I do notice a difference between those headphones and some other cheaper closed headphones ones I have, and the built-in speakers.
* Having the USB connector at the back is nice, no need for a MIDI to USB converter anymore

Sounds:
Piano 1:
* I can't tell the difference between the EX ConcertGrand on the ES520 and the default Concert Grand piano on the ES110, they are virtually identical.
* The new default SK ConcertGrand piano sound is quite nice, I prefer it to the EX ConcertGrand one.
* The Warm Grand is similar to the Mellow Grand on the ES110, but I think it's a tiny bit nicer
* The Jazz Clean is similar to the Studio Grand on the ES110, it has a bit more punch
Piano 2:
* The Rock Piano is also similar to the Rock Piano on the ES110, but again it has more punch to it
* Modern Piano seems about the same to me as on the ES110, can't notice any difference, didn't like it so much on the ES110, and on the ES520 is the same
* The new Upright Piano and Pop Grand sounds are nice, the first one is quite bright, the second is like a mellower variation of the EX but not as much as the Warm Grand
E. Piano:
* The Classic E. Piano is much better than the one on the ES110, the old one jumped too fast between quiet and loud, the one on the ES520 is much more balanced. And it's also nice to have the 2 variations
* The 60's E. Piano is about the same as the one on the ES110, but then there's an extra variation
* The Modern E. Piano is about the same as the one on the ES110
Organ:
* The Church Organ on the ES520 is miles ahead better than the one on the ES110. It reminds me of the one on the Yamaha P125, and the Principal Oct. one is also very good.
* Don't like the Ballad Organ is a bit weird. The top 3 octaves are ok, but anything bellow that, including the middle octave, sounds a bit weird. Also the volume of this instrument is noticeable lower than any other sound on the ES520, you have to raise the volume when you switch to it
* I like the Jazz Organ and the Drawbar Organ sounds on the ES520, but I think I slightly preferred the Jazz Organ on the ES110, it was more punchy. Maybe tweaking the parameters can help, but tried a couple of different things but couldn't get it to sound the same as the one on the ES110. Some Ray Charles like grooves just sounded better to me on the ES110. Maybe it just because I got used to that specific sound, these two still sound quite nice, but I just preferred the old one
Harpsi/Mallets:
* Yay, there's a Clav, and it sounds great, I missed it from both the Roland and the Yamaha
* The Hapsicord is a bit better on the ES520
* The Vibraphone is about the same as the one on the ES110, and it's nice to have the Marimba as well
Strings/Choir:
* A lot of options, and all sounding great. Both the String Ensemble and the Slow Strings are more realistic than the ones on the ES110, and all the extra pads and choirs are nice. The Jazz Scat option on the ROland was really fun, though, and it's a shame they didn't add anything like that to the ES520
* The funny thing is, the String Ensemble on the ES110 was more artificial and synthetic than the one of ES520, but I quite liked it for the Pirates of the Caribbean tune :)l
Bass:
* Both the Wood Bass and Electric Bass of the ES520 are better than the ES110, and it's nice to have the 2 extra variations of the electric one
* I like the new W. Bass and Ride sound that has the wood bass combined with the cymbals sounds, both the Roland and the Yamaha had it, but not the ES110

Keys
* Quite similar, same kind of matte finish, not as nice as the ivory imitation of the Roland FP-10, but still have quite good realistic feel.
* The shape of the keys is slightly different from the ES110, they are less rounded on top, which makes the gaps between keys slightly smaller.
* They are as noisy as the ones on the ES520, when you release them they have the same kid of shake. Playing the sound off, I would say the volume of the noise is about the same, but the ES520 key noise has a slightly lower pitch. For a totally ridiculous analogies, let's say that the ES110 has key press noise in the key of C#, while the ES520 has is in the key of C smile
* The key action definitely feels heavier than the ES110. It's still light, but there's definitely a difference. I can do grace notes on the black keys with the same ease, but some fast melodies seem slightly harder. Not as bad as in the Roland, though, it's a small difference between the ES110 and the ES520

So, in conclusion: it feels like overall a better piano than the ES110. Sounds are overall better, user interface is much better (except for the annoying rhythm selecting thing), the Bluetooth audio for the way I use the piano is really great (though it might not matter at all of others), the key action is kind of a tie I think. If it had the mp3 recording and the auto accompaniment like the ES920 it would be an easier choice. In current UK prices there's the Kawai ES110/Yamaha P125/Roland FP-30 around 500£, the Kawai ES520/Roland FP-60 around 1000£, and then the Kawai ES920, Yamaha P515, Roland FP90 around 1300/1400£. I never tried the FP-60, but from my experience with the FP-10 I'd say I'd always pick the ES520 between the two, but I'm still not sure if it's worth exchanging my ES110 with the ES520 and paying the extra £££, I have until Thursday to decide since the shop extended me a bit the return period for my ES110

Hope this review is useful for other people
Nice review.

For an extra £500 you only seem to be getting improved technology. I guess for some people that is worth it, but it seems that the es920 will be much better in terms of value. Both the HI-XL engine and the RH3 are quite large jumps in performance for an extra £300; this seems like a trend with these 'mid-range' digital pianos, painfully midrange. I just hope that the 'improvements' for the RH3 make the key noise less irritating. I couldn't stand the rhc, and videos of the es8 show that it was comparable. If not then I'll probably have to buy a p515... when they're back in stock. I dislike their sound, but I can stand my clp535, so I guess I can cope with the p515.
Well, the thing is, I'm thinking the RH3 and the comparable key actions of these higher end models are all going to be heavier. Which might be great for professional musicians used to acoustic pianos, but not so much for beginners, right?
Originally Posted by Randyman
Hmmm.... I just read the AZ Piano review of the ES920, and I kind of wondered if he actually had one to play, being that most of the info was available thru info from Kawai.

The vast majority of these blog format review sites are just copy writers, like piano dreamers.

They have never seen the product, they almost certainly don't play at a high enough level for their opinion on a musical instrument to be worth a damn.

You can tell that's the case when everything they say is superficial, and their article's emphasis on the Laundry list of features which are almost identical from every single DP.
Hi all. I've been following these threads for quite a while, with one eye on the Kawai ES8 replacement. After playing a Roland FP-30 for a few years, which has been a great beginners portable piano, now I've finally pulled the trigger on a Kawai ES920. It's due to be delivered on Monday, which is pretty exciting.
Originally Posted by Adem
Hi all. I've been following these threads for quite a while, with one eye on the Kawai ES8 replacement. After playing a Roland FP-30 for a few years, which has been a great beginners portable piano, now I've finally pulled the trigger on a Kawai ES920. It's due to be delivered on Monday, which is pretty exciting.

Would be great to get your thoughts on comparing the key action
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
My 520 finally arrived today.

Nice review. Enjoy your new DP. About the rythm part, doesn't 520 have some program saving feature? ES9 has the so called registrations. I owned it for two years withouth knowing it (user manual? what for? LOL). It is very handy.
Sure. My only experience has been with the FP-30, so I'll only be comparing it to that. In case anyone is interested, I'll have to sell the Roland FP-30 now, to try to fill the void in my bank balance left by the ES920 ☺️
Hello,does has interfaz es920 like yamaha p515?
Originally Posted by EVC2017
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
My 520 finally arrived today.

Nice review. Enjoy your new DP. About the rythm part, doesn't 520 have some program saving feature? ES9 has the so called registrations. I owned it for two years withouth knowing it (user manual? what for? LOL). It is very handy.

I tried that, but registrations don't save metronome or rhythm settings, so you can only save one in the start settings
I am not sure whether the RH3 is heavier than the RHC, but the higher end actions typically try to emulate an acoustic more (which doesn't have to mean its heavier). I think Yamaha's are known to make heavy actions, certainly my GH3X action is quite heavy.

Anyway, I look forward to Adem's experience with the es920!
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
I tried that, but registrations don't save metronome or rhythm settings, so you can only save one in the start settings

Are you sure? I am not sure about rythms (I do not use them) but I did set a metronome registration.

Actually, just out of curiosity, I just tried one of the factory registrations and it does store the rythm. I suggest you take a look at the factory registrations of your ES520. Maybe ES9's (and 920's) implementation is better in this regard (to justify the higher price tag), but who knows?
Originally Posted by Adem
Sure. My only experience has been with the FP-30, so I'll only be comparing it to that. In case anyone is interested, I'll have to sell the Roland FP-30 now, to try to fill the void in my bank balance left by the ES920 ☺️

Yes, that's what I'm looking for since I had the FP-10 and the key action is the same as the FP-30 and it even has the same set of sounds (though they aren't accessible through the buttons but only through the app on the FP-10)
Originally Posted by EVC2017
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
I tried that, but registrations don't save metronome or rhythm settings, so you can only save one in the start settings

Are you sure? I am not sure about rythms (I do not use them) but I did set a metronome registration.

Actually, just out of curiosity, I just tried one of the factory registrations and it does store the rythm. I suggest you take a look at the factory registrations of your ES520. Maybe ES9's (and 920's) implementation is better in this regard (to justify the higher price tag), but who knows?

Yeah, I'm sure. The manual even says the metronome settings are included in the registration, but it comes with an errata sheet saying that metronome settings aren't saved. It's the only thing bin that errata sheet
Maybe this behavior is corrected in future versions of the firmware.
Gustavo,
Thank you for your review. Please, if you will take a measurement for me. If the keyboards were sitting on a table, what is the measurement from the table top to the top of the keys?

I want to set it up in front of my sofa and my knees may not fit under if they keys are set at a good playing height. smile
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
So here's are my thoughts on the comparison between the ES110 and the ES520:

[...]

Hope this review is useful for other people

Well, I can't speak for other people, Gustavo, but to me, this seems like the understatement of the year. Thanks a lot for this interesting review! :-)
Gustavo Guerra,
Thanks for the detailed initial review!

I'm surprised and disappointed that the new speakers didn't make that much of an impression on you. That was one of the most compelling upgrades for me- bigger amps, specially designed with Onkyo, speakers that are facing up towards you. Perhaps others will have a different take, but I'm surprised its not a significant upgrade from the existing speakers.

Will be curious to hear a follow up review from you, esp for the speakers and action, as you settle in with it more.

In the US, the prices are
$700, es110,
$1,200, es520,
$1,599, es920
I am planning to go for the store to test the ES920, I already have digial Piano, But I might want portable one, problem is, there is a blockade due coronavirus so it may take a while.
@ Gustavo Guerra

The 520 has the triple sensor version of the RHC, can you do clean trills faster on es520 vs the ES110. ?
I sold my Roland FP10 recently and have pre-ordered the ES920 so I would love to hear comparisons if anyone has them to offer.
I have a fp10 aswell and tried the kawai es920. I don't know if it's me but compared to my fp 10 it felt overwhelmingly light in the key action. Not for me. So I tried the roland hp704/fp 90 and yamaha p515 where I liked the action better.. those 2 actions still feel lighter but at least a bit closer to the fp-10 action. Sound wise the yamaha p515 seemed very bright but the bosendorfer sound I found perfect.
However I think that the sound was overall more my cup of tea, on the kawai es920. This coming from someone that haven't played on an acoustic very much. Besides I've only played piano for a year.
Found this review of the ES920, at 7:15 they demo the accompaniment feature. The Yamaha P125 is an entry level model and has it, it's a shame other brands don't do the same

Originally Posted by Mobert
Gustavo,
Thank you for your review. Please, if you will take a measurement for me. If the keyboards were sitting on a table, what is the measurement from the table top to the top of the keys?

I want to set it up in front of my sofa and my knees may not fit under if they keys are set at a good playing height. smile

12cm from the rubber feet to the top of the white keys. The ES110 is 13cm. However, the ES110 rubber feet are tiny, and the ES520 are 2cm, so if you remove them you get 10cm. On the stand the top of the white keys on the ES520 are also 0.5cm higher than the ES110 on its stand, so that this means that in total when you have the stand you have 3.5cm extra for your knees on the ES520
Originally Posted by EVC2017
Maybe this behavior is corrected in future versions of the firmware.

It's very rare firmware updates of any kind of product actually change any behaviour smirk
The PIANOO video was already mentioned:
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...portable-digital-pianos.html#Post3028543
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...portable-digital-pianos.html#Post3028567

But no harm done by mentioning it again, I suppose. They seem to have a new format now with classical snippets too and they always(?) have a clip recorded via the speakers in the end too and always with the same room and equipment, I suppose, so one can compare pianos with each other.

My German is bad, but I think I understood what they said about the ES920:
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...portable-digital-pianos.html#Post3028562
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
Originally Posted by EVC2017
Maybe this behavior is corrected in future versions of the firmware.

It's very rare firmware updates of any kind of product actually change any behaviour smirk

In that particular case, the errata sheet suggests it was a last minute found bug. So I think it is possible they fix it.

On RD2000, the firmware versions not only fixed bugs but added features and sounds. Of course, Kawai is not Roland, but (who knows ?) they fix their screwups this time. wink
Originally Posted by Randyman
Gustavo Guerra,
Thanks for the detailed initial review!

I'm surprised and disappointed that the new speakers didn't make that much of an impression on you. That was one of the most compelling upgrades for me- bigger amps, specially designed with Onkyo, speakers that are facing up towards you. Perhaps others will have a different take, but I'm surprised its not a significant upgrade from the existing speakers.

Will be curious to hear a follow up review from you, esp for the speakers and action, as you settle in with it more.

In the US, the prices are
$700, es110,
$1,200, es520,
$1,599, es920

Well, the ES520 on the EX patch sounds a bit richer than the ES110 with the same sound, but I'm not sure how much of it is the new engine versus the speakers. They go a little bit louder than the ES110 ones, but not by a significant amount. Neither of them show any signs of distortion even at high volume. For my living room both are adequate enough, I'm saying is that the ones o the ES110 were good enough for me, not that I'm disappointed on the ones on the ES520
Originally Posted by jeffcat
@ Gustavo Guerra

The 520 has the triple sensor version of the RHC, can you do clean trills faster on es520 vs the ES110. ?

Just tried that, feels about the same, but then again my trills are not great, as I said I only have 6 months of piano practice
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
The PIANOO video was already mentioned:
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...portable-digital-pianos.html#Post3028543
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...portable-digital-pianos.html#Post3028567

But no harm done by mentioning it again, I suppose. They seem to have a new format now with classical snippets too and they always(?) have a clip recorded via the speakers in the end too and always with the same room and equipment, I suppose, so one can compare pianos with each other.

My German is bad, but I think I understood what they said about the ES920:
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...portable-digital-pianos.html#Post3028562

Ah, sorry, I had missed that, this is a long thread smile
Originally Posted by EVC2017
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
Originally Posted by EVC2017
Maybe this behavior is corrected in future versions of the firmware.

It's very rare firmware updates of any kind of product actually change any behaviour smirk

In that particular case, the errata sheet suggests it was a last minute found bug. So I think it is possible they fix it.

On RD2000, the firmware versions not only fixed bugs but added features and sounds. Of course, Kawai is not Roland, but (who knows ?) they fix their screwups this time. wink

Yeah, maybe they will fix the metronome/rhythm settings not going to the registration memory, but what would be great would be to be able to press and hold the rhythm or metronome button and then some piano keys to directly input the style and the tempo like on the ES110 as an accelerator
Originally Posted by Randyman
Gustavo Guerra,
Thanks for the detailed initial review!

I'm surprised and disappointed that the new speakers didn't make that much of an impression on you. That was one of the most compelling upgrades for me- bigger amps, specially designed with Onkyo, speakers that are facing up towards you. Perhaps others will have a different take, but I'm surprised its not a significant upgrade from the existing speakers.

Will be curious to hear a follow up review from you, esp for the speakers and action, as you settle in with it more.

In the US, the prices are
$700, es110,
$1,200, es520,
$1,599, es920

Hi the same for me I was hoping the speakers where much louder. the es110 is 7w the 520 is meant to be 20 W!! so there should be a big difference. Could you do a test to measure them? i think you can get an app to do it.

thanks
Originally Posted by musicman100
Originally Posted by Randyman
Gustavo Guerra,
Thanks for the detailed initial review!

I'm surprised and disappointed that the new speakers didn't make that much of an impression on you. That was one of the most compelling upgrades for me- bigger amps, specially designed with Onkyo, speakers that are facing up towards you. Perhaps others will have a different take, but I'm surprised its not a significant upgrade from the existing speakers.

Will be curious to hear a follow up review from you, esp for the speakers and action, as you settle in with it more.

In the US, the prices are
$700, es110,
$1,200, es520,
$1,599, es920

Hi the same for me I was hoping the speakers where much louder. the es110 is 7w the 520 is meant to be 20 W!! so there should be a big difference. Could you do a test to measure them? i think you can get an app to do it.

thanks

Sure, if you point me to an Android app to do it I can measure
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
Originally Posted by jeffcat
@ Gustavo Guerra

The 520 has the triple sensor version of the RHC, can you do clean trills faster on es520 vs the ES110. ?

Just tried that, feels about the same, but then again my trills are not great, as I said I only have 6 months of piano practice

Hrrrm... we could try 2 handed, play the 2 notes like drums.
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
Yeah, maybe they will fix the metronome/rhythm settings not going to the registration memory,

One thing you can do is filing a bug report on Kawai's web site. That behavior you described (the rythm/metronome not being properly saved in the registration) definetely sounds like a bug.


Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
but what would be great would be to be able to press and hold the rhythm or metronome button and then some piano keys to directly input the style and the tempo like on the ES110 as an accelerator

That is not gonna happen, IMO. When you have direct access buttons, it makes no sense using the keys (again IMO) as shortcuts. For you it would be a natural thing as you are used to ES110's way but not for a new owners or even other ES110 owners for which this way of working is probably a nuisance (as it is a cost savings workaround). Also, this would be clearly a new feature, that would add to software complexity, and that very few of 520's owners would require or use. It makes more sense making the registrations working right and most users would use it this way.
Thanks that would be really great . there is this app

app

I am not sure how you convert it to Watts.

maybe someone will know more . I will take a measure form my Dexibell P7 so we could at least compare to that.

Thanks

again.
Originally Posted by musicman100
Hi the same for me I was hoping the speakers where much louder. the es110 is 7w the 520 is meant to be 20 W!! so there should be a big difference. Could you do a test to measure them? i think you can get an app to do it.

thanks

In order to be ~2x in volume (+10db), you need 10x the power rating. 7 to 70watts. 7 to 20watt would only give you +4.8db. Keep in mind these numbers manufacturers give are probably fudged, creative marketing.

A console/grand acoustic produces 80-100db

use -sound analyzer app- on android it's free and no ads. Measure from where your head is.

These numbers are not exactly comparable due to psychoacoustic elements.
Originally Posted by jeffcat
Originally Posted by musicman100
Hi the same for me I was hoping the speakers where much louder. the es110 is 7w the 520 is meant to be 20 W!! so there should be a big difference. Could you do a test to measure them? i think you can get an app to do it.

thanks

In order to be ~2x in volume (+10db), you need 10x the power rating. 7 to 70watts. 7 to 20watt would only give you +4.8db. Keep in mind these numbers manufacturers give are probably fudged, creative marketing.

A console/grand acoustic produces 80-100db

use -sound analyzer app- on android it's free and no ads. Measure from where your head is.

These numbers are not exactly comparable due to psychoacoustic elements.

Will try that app now thanks for that
This is the one jeffcat recommended

App
Reading the above -

110 520
touch BT in
weight audio in
speakers
tone
interface
price
rhythm robot

I can rig an audio in to the 110. I had the BT in on the Casio PSX 3000 and it's a great feature. I like a be bop action; 110 has it, sounds like 520 doesn't. Jury is out on fast trills (yes, two fingered is fine for this test; that's what Chick himself does...)

At the end of the day, for saxophone, tone is IT. That's why I'm playing a 96 year old Conn tenor when my Selmer Mark VI (1973) has better action. For piano, it seems to be reverse, due to VST. And for pros, WEIGHT. Nobody can schlepp a heavy axe without a car and even then no one wants to. Lots of pros in NYC play Nord due to light. Kawai should next target pros.
Originally Posted by jeffcat
In order to be ~2x in volume (+10db), you need 10x the power rating.

That assuming the speakers have the same efficiency. smile
Hi dont really understand the rating . But would you be able to measure the ES8 output I know it says 15w but seems to have the same speaker arrangement as the es520/920? This is really important in my decision to buy the es920!! maybe we should start another thread about this.

So how is it best to measure it. Full volume -no touch on- and play middle C ? Would that give a good idea of DB?

thanks
Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
Reading the above -

110 520
touch BT in
weight audio in
speakers
tone
interface
price
rhythm robot

I can rig an audio in to the 110. I had the BT in on the Casio PSX 3000 and it's a great feature. I like a be bop action; 110 has it, sounds like 520 doesn't. Jury is out on fast trills (yes, two fingered is fine for this test; that's what Chick himself does...)

At the end of the day, for saxophone, tone is IT. That's why I'm playing a 96 year old Conn tenor when my Selmer Mark VI (1973) has better action. For piano, it seems to be reverse, due to VST. And for pros, WEIGHT. Nobody can schlepp a heavy axe without a car and even then no one wants to. Lots of pros in NYC play Nord due to light. Kawai should next target pros.

If I do repeat very fast the same key over and over, the 520 does respond better
I can change the touch setting from normal to light, and that makes it more sensitive than the 110 at default setting, though the 110 light setting is still slightly lighter
Ok, with touch sensitivity off and volume max, I pressed middle C a couple of times and recorded the max LAF dBa value I got with the Sound Analyzer App

ES110:
Concert Grand: 68.5
Studio Grad: 70.3

ES520:
SK Concert Grand: 69.9
EX Concert Grand: 73.3
Jazz Clean: 72.4
Upright Piano: 71.1
Then I also tried the demo songs, which I think illustrate the different better

ES110
First demo song: 76.3
Second demo song: 76.8

ES520:
SK Concert Grand demo: 81.9
EX Concert Grand demo: 86.0
Jazz Clean demo: 81.3
Upright Piano demo: 82.8

Subjectively, the max sound when doing this on the ES110 felt ok, while the one on the ES520 felt that my neighbours would start to complain a bit, so it is louder smile
Originally Posted by jeffcat
In order to be ~2x in volume (+10db), you need 10x the power rating. 7 to 70watts. 7 to 20watt would only give you +4.8db. Keep in mind these numbers manufacturers give are probably fudged, creative marketing.


Quote
A console/grand acoustic produces 80-100db

use -sound analyzer app- on android it's free and no ads. Measure from where your head is.

Smartphone microphones are able to detect a relative volume difference of up to 35 dB. They are not suitable at all for measuring loud equipment.

Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
Ok, with touch sensitivity off and volume max, I pressed middle C a couple of times and recorded the max LAF dBa value I got with the Sound Analyzer App

ES110:
Concert Grand: 68.5
Studio Grad: 70.3

ES520:
SK Concert Grand: 69.9
EX Concert Grand: 73.3
Jazz Clean: 72.4
Upright Piano: 71.1

Pretty much presents the upper limit of what your phone is able to pick up.
After playing more, while my favourite on the ES110 for blues and swing jazz was the Studio Grand, on the ES520 I'm liking more and more the Pop Grand sound, rather than the Jazz Clean.
Another small annoyance, on the ES110 when you saved the startup settings it would save the current selected sound in each category, while the ES520 only saves the selected sound within the selected category, when you select another category it always goes to the first sound, so you cannot save your favourite piano and your favourite e. piano at startup automatically
Originally Posted by Einaudio
I have a fp10 aswell and tried the kawai es920. I don't know if it's me but compared to my fp 10 it felt overwhelmingly light in the key action. Not for me. So I tried the roland hp704/fp 90 and yamaha p515 where I liked the action better.. those 2 actions still feel lighter but at least a bit closer to the fp-10 action. Sound wise the yamaha p515 seemed very bright but the bosendorfer sound I found perfect.
However I think that the sound was overall more my cup of tea, on the kawai es920. This coming from someone that haven't played on an acoustic very much. Besides I've only played piano for a year.

Have you made a decision then?

If I understand your comment correctly, you found the FP90 and P515 action lighter than the FP10?

The fact that you found the ES920 action lighter than FP10 is good for me, since I prefer lighter action.
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
After playing more, while my favourite on the ES110 for blues and swing jazz was the Studio Grand, on the ES520 I'm liking more and more the Pop Grand sound, rather than the Jazz Clean.

Pop Grand > Studio Grand? Interesting. I'm a Jazz cat. Agreed Studio Grand on 100 is best.
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
If I do repeat very fast the same key over and over, the 520 does respond better

Thanks. I can't to fast repeats on a single note (using two fingers, as fast as possible) on the 110 AT ALL. If you try this as fast as possible, what is the result? Thanks. It's actually a technique I do all the time and *might* (or might not...) be worth extra $700 for (I could sell my 110 for about $500, I think, it's 3 months old).


Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
I can change the touch setting from normal to light, and that makes it more sensitive than the 110 at default setting, though the 110 light setting is still slightly lighter

So...

520 normal touch setting > 110 normal touch setting > 520 light touch setting > 110 light touch setting

in terms of heavy to light, correct?
* "The key action definitely feels heavier than the ES110. It's still light, but there's definitely a difference. I can do grace notes on the black keys with the same ease, but some fast melodies seem slightly harder. Not as bad as in the Roland, though, it's a small difference between the ES110 and the ES520"

Thank you! I'm staying with my ES110.
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
After playing more, while my favourite on the ES110 for blues and swing jazz was the Studio Grand, on the ES520 I'm liking more and more the Pop Grand sound, rather than the Jazz Clean.

I'm a fan of the Studio Grand too. It's more legato for right hand single note bop playing, less thumpy. It might not be the best for ballad playing, it's more compressed, but for fast lines it's smooth.
Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
If I do repeat very fast the same key over and over, the 520 does respond better

Thanks. I can't to fast repeats on a single note (using two fingers, as fast as possible) on the 110 AT ALL. If you try this as fast as possible, what is the result? Thanks. It's actually a technique I do all the time and *might* (or might not...) be worth extra $700 for (I could sell my 110 for about $500, I think, it's 3 months old).

The 110 drops a lot of notes if you do it very fast and there's no time for the key to go fully up. The 520 also drops some notes, but it seems the key doesn't need to go up so far for it to work, so you are able to do it a bit better than on the 520, but it still might not be enough for what you want, so don't just go on my word as I don't really have much experience with thrills. When you manage to get those fast notes in, the repeated notes resonate with each other and it has a quite nice sound to it

Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
I can change the touch setting from normal to light, and that makes it more sensitive than the 110 at default setting, though the 110 light setting is still slightly lighter

So...

520 normal touch setting > 110 normal touch setting > 520 light touch setting > 110 light touch setting

in terms of heavy to light, correct?

Well, between the 110 normal and the 520 light it's hard to tell which one is heavier. On the 520 light touch I can play as fast as on the 110 normal without losing any note, but it's also easier to play softer if I want, so I guess it might be slightly heavier.

I'm tempted to consider the 920 as well, but worry that if the keys are heavier than 520 then it might be too heavy for me, someone has already said it's definitely lighter than the FP10 which is a good sign. Even though I wish the 520 wasn't heavier at all compare to the 110, the difference is not too much, and I think it's a good trade off as the 520 sounds feel richer to me, and there's a few nice welcome features.
No I haven't quite made a decision yet. But I think it's between the p515 and hp704.

Yeah in terms of action from light to heavy I felt it like this:

Es920 - roland hp704 - yamaha p515 - roland fp-10

Originally Posted by Tigris90
Originally Posted by Einaudio
I have a fp10 aswell and tried the kawai es920. I don't know if it's me but compared to my fp 10 it felt overwhelmingly light in the key action. Not for me. So I tried the roland hp704/fp 90 and yamaha p515 where I liked the action better.. those 2 actions still feel lighter but at least a bit closer to the fp-10 action. Sound wise the yamaha p515 seemed very bright but the bosendorfer sound I found perfect.
However I think that the sound was overall more my cup of tea, on the kawai es920. This coming from someone that haven't played on an acoustic very much. Besides I've only played piano for a year.

Have you made a decision then?

If I understand your comment correctly, you found the FP90 and P515 action lighter than the FP10?

The fact that you found the ES920 action lighter than FP10 is good for me, since I prefer lighter action.

No I haven't quite made a decision yet. But I think it's between the p515 and hp704.

Yeah in terms of action from light to heavy I felt it like this:

Es920 - roland hp704 - yamaha p515 - roland fp-10
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
The 110 drops a lot of notes if you do it very fast and there's no time for the key to go fully up. The 520 also drops some notes, but it seems the key doesn't need to go up so far for it to work, so you are able to do it a bit better than on the 520, but it still might not be enough for what you want, so don't just go on my word as I don't really have much experience with thrills. When you manage to get those fast notes in, the repeated notes resonate with each other and it has a quite nice sound to it

As Chick Corea says, "you need a really good piano to do this on" (and he means acoustic). Check his uTube solo piano stuff, he does this a lot. I'll have to try it on a 520 in a store, but it's at least a bit better, thanks for reporting.



Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
Well, between the 110 normal and the 520 light it's hard to tell which one is heavier. On the 520 light touch I can play as fast as on the 110 normal without losing any note, but it's also easier to play softer if I want, so I guess it might be slightly heavier.


Check the Forum for a thread called "110 Hidden Rhodes," and note touch setting.

Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
I'm tempted to consider the 920 as well, but worry that if the keys are heavier than 520 then it might be too heavy for me, someone has already said it's definitely lighter than the FP10 which is a good sign. Even though I wish the 520 wasn't heavier at all compare to the 110, the difference is not too much, and I think it's a good trade off as the 520 sounds feel richer to me, and there's a few nice welcome features.

Audio and BT in are useful, extra 5 pounds is not (my 80 pound MP11 stays put, 110 moves around a lot; THIS weight matters, too!). 920 is out of the question for me.
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
Ok, with touch sensitivity off and volume max, I pressed middle C a couple of times and recorded the max LAF dBa value I got with the Sound Analyzer App

ES110:
Concert Grand: 68.5
Studio Grad: 70.3

ES520:
SK Concert Grand: 69.9
EX Concert Grand: 73.3
Jazz Clean: 72.4
Upright Piano: 71.1

Not exactly on point (don't know where to put it), but can you measure the key lengths (black and white) of the two units? I'm wondering if there is a difference in that and /or the fulcrum pivot. Thanks....
Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
Ok, with touch sensitivity off and volume max, I pressed middle C a couple of times and recorded the max LAF dBa value I got with the Sound Analyzer App

ES110:
Concert Grand: 68.5
Studio Grad: 70.3

ES520:
SK Concert Grand: 69.9
EX Concert Grand: 73.3
Jazz Clean: 72.4
Upright Piano: 71.1

Not exactly on point (don't know where to put it), but can you measure the key lengths (black and white) of the two units? I'm wondering if there is a difference in that and /or the fulcrum pivot. Thanks....

They are exactly the same between the ES110 and the ES520
14.8cm on the white keys
8.3 top of black keys
9.4 bottom of black keys

And the white keys down 1cm when pushed down on both as well

So not difference at all
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
Ok, with touch sensitivity off and volume max, I pressed middle C a couple of times and recorded the max LAF dBa value I got with the Sound Analyzer App

ES110:
Concert Grand: 68.5
Studio Grad: 70.3

ES520:
SK Concert Grand: 69.9
EX Concert Grand: 73.3
Jazz Clean: 72.4
Upright Piano: 71.1

Not exactly on point (don't know where to put it), but can you measure the key lengths (black and white) of the two units? I'm wondering if there is a difference in that and /or the fulcrum pivot. Thanks....

They are exactly the same between the ES110 and the ES520
14.8cm on the white keys
8.3 top of black keys
9.4 bottom of black keys

And the white keys down 1cm when pushed down on both as well

So not difference at all

Thank you. And thanks for including "key dip," which I forgot to ask about. It's the reason I returned an MP7 and bought an MP11 a few years ago - the MP7, which has a keybed that doubles as an organ keybed, is too shallow for my tastes at about .7 cm to the MP11's 1 cm, which is standard.
14.8 cm sounds like the visible part of white keys, so it's not the pivot length.

But don't we kind of know that RHC and RHCII are identical apart from the third sensor and possibly some minor tweaks? Maybe we don't.
How are the RHCIII keys in comprasion to GFC?
Originally Posted by Adem
Hi all. I've been following these threads for quite a while, with one eye on the Kawai ES8 replacement. After playing a Roland FP-30 for a few years, which has been a great beginners portable piano, now I've finally pulled the trigger on a Kawai ES920. It's due to be delivered on Monday, which is pretty exciting.

Did you got it? What are your thoughts comparing it with the FP-30?
Best video so far!!!

Makes me what to go buy it so I can just do this!!!

Ahh you found my video already 😂
I did that for you guys. Been too busy with work to do much more than that so far. Unfortunately one of the keys is catching slightly so I'm currently trying waiting to see what the options are for a return here. First impressions are that it's a lovely piano, but I'll go into detail soon. I don't really want to play it or mess with the pristine packaging etc until I know where I stand with the catching key.
Hi Adem welcome to the forum .

Would love to hear your thoughts on it . Especially how loud it is compared to the roland? Do you still have the Roland fp30? I tried that before i settled on the es110.
Originally Posted by musicman100
Best video so far!!!

Makes me what to go buy it so I can just do this!!!


Aaaaaaaaaaaah! :-)

Originally Posted by Adem
Ahh you found my video already 😂
I did that for you guys. Been too busy with work to do much more than that so far. Unfortunately one of the keys is catching slightly so I'm currently trying waiting to see what the options are for a return here.

Thanks for your recording, Adem. I'm one happy guy right now. :-)

However, I'm of course not happy that there seems to be an issue with one key. Hopefully, this can be fixed. Otherwise, have your unit replaced with another one – but, please, please, don't forget to make another recording, okay? :-)
Yes I still have the Roland FP-30. It's for sale.

Initial thoughts compared to the Roland FP-30? Let's be fair up front. It won't be a fair fight. We're comparing an entry level compact, to a mid range portable at just over double the price. My only previous experience is of the FP-30, so that frames my view.

Okay, so the Kawai has a massive sound improvement. The tones are wonderfully rich across a range of pianos, in particular the SK, EX and SK-5. Additionally the reverb effects seem are well done - room, lounge, small hall, concert hall, live hall and cathedral - it's not just a gimmick, they have a significant impact on the available sounds. This is the first time I've experienced the notch, key-off and fall back effects, which are all configurable. It seems great to me, but given I've never had an acoustic piano my opinion shouldn't count for much here.

As I mentioned before, there's a key that's catching on the Kawai, so I'm looking to correct or return it. I've had the Roland for 3 years and it's been robust and faultless.

The speakers are an enormous improvement with the FP-30, unsurprisingly, as the Roland was positioned underneath the piano pointing at the floor (in order to retain its compact format). As a result the Kawai is actually slightly smaller in height, with the speakers being positioned face up on top. The ES920 speakers knock the FP-30 out of the park comfortably in terms of both volume and tone. When playing the FP-30 there was a tremendous difference between the onboard speakers and my good quality open headphones. The Roland speakers didn't come close to the headphones. With the ES920 there's not an obviously noticeable difference between playing it through the speakers or the headphones, which is very welcome.

I haven't recorded it yet, but would expect another big gap here as the Roland had no line out option, so there was no actual way to record the on board audio at acceptable quality - it had to be via midi.

There's a slightly heavier, fuller action on the Kawai. The Roland keys comparatively seem to give way easily, and are slower to return. I don't have experience of different pianos but it only took fifteen minutes to get used to.

The biggest difference for me is in the dynamism and expression of playing it. It's possibly to convey so much more feeling into the keys intuitively. I always found it very difficult and limited with the FP-30, and much less natural. The Kawai has a much better balance of tones all over the range, from deep bass to a clear treble. The Roland could be muddy at the bottom and thin and lost at the top. In order to get audible high notes I'd have to hit them quite hard, and I'd have to try hard to keep my left hand soft, or the bass would dominate and muddy the piece. The Kawai keeps things well balanced and distinct, naturally.

So far, apart from the dodgy key, I think it's a wonderful instrument.
Hi Thanks for taking the time to reply. I hope the speakers would be much better and you have confirmed that. thanks
How loud would you compare to rebound noise of the keys to the es8 (https://youtu.be/1x167hC2KtY?t=1140), if I may ask?

It has always been a weird quirk with kawai's plastic actions, so sorry if its a strange request lol.
Hi Adem What do you mean about the catching key? Can you explain it in detail
Hi Infermitydood, yes it does seem to have that same quirk that James shows in his video (really like his channel).
It did feel unusual for the first fifteen minutes, but I quickly got used to it. Of course it now feels unusual to go and try the Roland again afterwards, so personally it's not a problem at all.
Interestingly James mentions that the main area of concern this brings is trying to play very quietly, but this is actually an area I've been pleased with (again, I've only played an FP-30 previously) because I'm more easily hitting quiet notes on the Kawai, whereas the Roland would often miss making a sound altogether in the quiet presses and was very hit and miss.

I suppose it's all down to what you're used to, and what you're comparing it to.
Originally Posted by Tigris90
Hi Adem What do you mean about the catching key? Can you explain it in detail
Here's what's happening. It's actually catching on something to the right side of the B key on both the press up and down. If I move the B key slightly to the left and press, it goes down cleanly.
Hello Adem,

Congrats on your ES920, and thank you for sharing the videos.

The "catching" B key obviously should not happen. Please contact your dealer and/or Kawai distributor for assistance.

May I ask if you would be willing to change the status of the keyboard video to "Unlisted", please?

Kind regards,
James
x
Yeah, no problem, that's done. In case anyone skim reads this out of context, I'm very happy with the ES920 and the key is not fazing me at all.
Adem,
When you get a chance, can you measure the height of the ES920 from the bottom (minus the feet) to the top of the white keys?
Thank you,
Mobert
Originally Posted by Mobert
Adem,
When you get a chance, can you measure the height of the ES920 from the bottom (minus the feet) to the top of the white keys?
Thank you,
Mobert
From the bottom of the piano (minus feet) to the top of a white key is 10.5cm.
Originally Posted by Adem
Originally Posted by Mobert
Adem,
When you get a chance, can you measure the height of the ES920 from the bottom (minus the feet) to the top of the white keys?
Thank you,
Mobert
From the bottom of the piano (minus feet) to the top of a white key is 10.5cm.
Did fix your piano key?
I'm waiting to hear back from the dealer (Bonners) after sending over the video yesterday.
Originally Posted by Adem
Yeah, no problem, that's done.

Many thanks!

Kind regards,
James
x
What is the height of the base of the piano to the top of a white key WITHOUT the wood frame furniture? Thanks....
Originally Posted by Adem
Originally Posted by Tigris90
Hi Adem What do you mean about the catching key? Can you explain it in detail
Here's what's happening. It's actually catching on something to the right side of the B key on both the press up and down. If I move the B key slightly to the left and press, it goes down cleanly.

Typical damage caused by putting the piano vertical on the edge during transport or storage. That breaks hammer actions regularly.
Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
What is the height of the base of the piano to the top of a white key WITHOUT the wood frame furniture? Thanks....

From base of piano to top of white keys is 10.5cm

From base of piano to top of piano at front (inc side body either side of keys) is 11cm

From base of piano to top of piano at rear (highest point) is 12.5cm

It's pretty much a flat slab - only 2cm difference between keys and highest point.
Originally Posted by JoeT
Typical damage caused by putting the piano vertical on the edge during transport or storage. That breaks hammer actions regularly.

That might be true but I've stored many different DPs I've owned vertically in my house and never had this happen. Who's transporting DPs vertically?
A quick question for James or anyone with the piano . Does the kawai app work with the 520 and 920? I have looked at the web site but not sure.

thanks
Originally Posted by musicman100
A quick question for James or anyone with the piano . Does the kawai app work with the 520 and 920? I have looked at the web site but not sure.

thanks

I tried it, and it currently doesn't work with the 520, but unlike with the ES110 it's supposed to be updated soon to support it.
This guy seems happy with his 920. He doesn't play, apart from the intro, but gives reasons he went for the 920, comparing it with a number of organs/digital pianos/VSTs/acoustic pianos he's owned and played.

Originally Posted by 36251
Originally Posted by JoeT
Typical damage caused by putting the piano vertical on the edge during transport or storage. That breaks hammer actions regularly.

That might be true but I've stored many different DPs I've owned vertically in my house and never had this happen. Who's transporting DPs vertically?

Kawai James advised me to store my MP-11 in "playing mode" (bottom on bottom). Not eve on its back, so I did. Casio Privia on its end, no damage.
Originally Posted by MidiG
This guy seems happy with his 920. He doesn't play, apart from the intro, but gives reasons he went for the 920, comparing it with a number of organs/digital pianos/VSTs/acoustic pianos he's owned and played.


Thanks for sharing, MidiG!

I found this video very refreshing: It's, finally, an independent and very personal review, and as far as I can tell, the reviewer knows what he's talking about. While we don't have to share his opinions or agree with his choice, it's obvious he did his homework before deciding which piano to buy.

Would be nice if there were more reviews like this one.
After that review I'm definitely going out to buy this digical paino😉
Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
Originally Posted by 36251
Originally Posted by JoeT
Typical damage caused by putting the piano vertical on the edge during transport or storage. That breaks hammer actions regularly.

That might be true but I've stored many different DPs I've owned vertically in my house and never had this happen. Who's transporting DPs vertically?

Kawai James advised me to store my MP-11 in "playing mode" (bottom on bottom). Not eve on its back, so I did. Casio Privia on its end, no damage.

I stored my Roland FP-30 vertically for 3 years and didn't have any problem. However after reading this, it made me question the wisdom of doing so with a brand new ES920. The whole purpose of having a portable slab for me, is because I only have a small house, and don't have room for a piano as a permanent piece of furniture. I have it out perhaps 2 or 3 days a week. After initially experiencing the key problem, I propped it up against the cupboard wall vertically, and checked the keys. I found that whilst in that position, one of the keys wouldn't press down. At all. So it does appear to create pressure on the action. I then spent some time to change things around and make an alternative storage space so that it can sit in playing mode.

Kawai are apparently sending a technician to my home to fix the catching key but am yet to receive a date for this. Not a great start for my first Kawai, although it is really lovely to play the other 87 keys 🤔
Originally Posted by musicman100
Does the kawai app work with the 520 and 920? I have looked at the web site but not sure.

Not yet, however a forthcoming update to add support for the CA49, CA59, ES520, and ES920 should be released shortly.

Kind regards,
James
x
So I decided to order an ES920 and compare it with the ES520. Here is my take:
* In term of sound quality, to be honest while I saw a big difference between the ES110 and the ES520 I couldn't see a noticeable difference between the ES520 and the ES920 straight away. But I only tried it for around one hour yet. There's a few extra sounds compared to the ES520, which is nice, but again, less of a delta than between the 110 and the 520.
* Unlike the ES520, I didn't see any weird issues with the ES920 software. It remembers the last selected sound in each category correctly, it remember metronome and rhythm section settings separately without resetting every time you switch between them, and it does save metronome/rhythm settings on registrations. Also you can jump that rhythms at the time by pressing and holding the rhythm and next button, so it makes it faster to go to the one you want, as you will only need 6 or 7 presses rather than 70 on average on the ES520
* The accompaniment feature is fun to play around with pop/rock stuff, but of course as expected it doesn't pickup jazz chords very well, so if you do R37 or R379 voicing it gets it right, but if you a R73 it doesn't. But that's fine, I mostly want to use the drums only. It's a shame it hasn't have a way to trigger the fill-in by pressing one of the pedals or something like that in addition to being pre-set to a number of bars.
* The keys feels nicer. I was worried they would feel heavier, and they are heavier than the ES110, but in the same ballpark as of the ES520. They seem to have the exact same matte finish as on the ES520, so no difference in slipperiness, but they are slightly less noisy, which is great. When you release them and they go back up, they are still noisy, but they rattle a little bit less than on the ES520, and the total noise ends up being more muffed than on the ES520. You can feel the escapement point, but it's very subtle. On the Roland it's much more obvious, but maybe that's one of the reasons the Roland keys felt so heavy

I will need to play a bit with it to have a better feel, but I think I'm keeping the 920 and sending back the 520.
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by musicman100
Does the kawai app work with the 520 and 920? I have looked at the web site but not sure.

Not yet, however a forthcoming update to add support for the CA49, CA59, ES520, and ES920 should be released shortly.

Kind regards,
James
x

Thanks James for that.



Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
So I decided to order an ES920 and compare it with the ES520. Here is my take:
* In term of sound quality, to be honest while I saw a big difference between the ES110 and the ES520 I couldn't see a noticeable difference between the ES520 and the ES920 straight away. But I only tried it for around one hour yet. There's a few extra sounds compared to the ES520, which is nice, but again, less of a delta than between the 110 and the 520.
* Unlike the ES520, I didn't see any weird issues with the ES920 software. It remembers the last selected sound in each category correctly, it remember metronome and rhythm section settings separately without resetting every time you switch between them, and it does save metronome/rhythm settings on registrations. Also you can jump that rhythms at the time by pressing and holding the rhythm and next button, so it makes it faster to go to the one you want, as you will only need 6 or 7 presses rather than 70 on average on the ES520
* The accompaniment feature is fun to play around with pop/rock stuff, but of course as expected it doesn't pickup jazz chords very well, so if you do R37 or R379 voicing it gets it right, but if you a R73 it doesn't. But that's fine, I mostly want to use the drums only. It's a shame it hasn't have a way to trigger the fill-in by pressing one of the pedals or something like that in addition to being pre-set to a number of bars.
* The keys feels nicer. I was worried they would feel heavier, and they are heavier than the ES110, but in the same ballpark as of the ES520. They seem to have the exact same matte finish as on the ES520, so no difference in slipperiness, but they are slightly less noisy, which is great. When you release them and they go back up, they are still noisy, but they rattle a little bit less than on the ES520, and the total noise ends up being more muffed than on the ES520. You can feel the escapement point, but it's very subtle. On the Roland it's much more obvious, but maybe that's one of the reasons the Roland keys felt so heavy

I will need to play a bit with it to have a better feel, but I think I'm keeping the 920 and sending back the 520.

Would be great if you could make a video about the differences. I am thinking between the two so it would be great to see and hear the differences.

thanks
Originally Posted by musicman100
Would be great if you could make a video about the differences. I am thinking between the two so it would be great to see and hear the differences.

thanks

I don't think I will, but feel free to ask me anything while I still have both, they're picking up the ES520 tomorrow
No problem.

Did you notice much difference in the speakers? I think they are meant to be the same but I imagine to the 110 they should be alot louder?
Originally Posted by musicman100
No problem.

Did you notice much difference in the speakers? I think they are meant to be the same but I imagine to the 110 they should be alot louder?

They're a bit louder than the ES110 but between the 520 and the 920 they seem to be the same
Playing thru headphones, do you notice a difference in the piano samples? Aren't there more/different pianos to choose from on the 920? And the sound engine is supposed to be more sophisticated.

Please say more about the difference btw the action on the 2 boards. Sounds like the lightness/heaviness is about the same, and that the 920 is quieter. How about going from ppp to fff? How about your personal experience of feeling expressed? And any other general remarks on the difference in the action between them.

Thanks! You've been a little oasis in a desert of little info.
I found the talk too long and not getting to the point(but that's just me). 10 piano sounds and no honky tonk sound, I will be selling my Kawai as soon as I get something that I am happy with. My ES8 is dropping sounds after 1 year, and I really, really miss Honky Tonk. Roland RD 2000 got about 7 honky tonks and FP has some too... Honky tonk is a must for me.
Originally Posted by Siberialina
I found the talk too long and not getting to the point(but that's just me). 10 piano sounds and no honky tonk sound, I will be selling my Kawai as soon as I get something that I am happy with. My ES8 is dropping sounds after 1 year, and I really, really miss Honky Tonk. Roland RD 2000 got about 7 honky tonks and FP has some too... Honky tonk is a must for me.
Can't you simulate honky tonk with a chorus effect?

I never got honkytonk on most DPs. Way overdone, so out of tune and dissonant it usually isn't very playable. At least there's an upright now.
And come to think of it...

EVERY manufacturer always sticks a harpsichord in there, even when there's only 20 sounds!!!! That's where they could substitute a honky tonk piano, it'd be used far more. Does anybody use the harpsichord on DPs?
Originally Posted by Randyman
That's where they could substitute a honky tonk piano, it'd be used far more. Does anybody use the harpsichord on DPs?

Yes. And I never use the Honky-Tonk sound.
On every keyboard I've owned, there was always just one acoustic piano sound I have used-- the best one. On the MP7SE I have now, I use the SK-EX out of the box. On a Roland Juno Stage, the best piano sound was a split keyboard with one piano patch for notes below the split point, and another for notes at and above the split point.

But once I established the best piano sound, using a different one would be an inferior result. That's because I care about how well the patch supports interpretive articulations and controls, not the particular timbre or coloration of the sound.

I use the coupled harpsichord sound on the MP7SE, which are good, but find Kawai's individual harpsichord voices to be a bit lacking.
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
And I never use the Honky-Tonk sound.

+1

The K-60 upright piano sound is much better than any Honky-Tonk piano sound I've ever played.

Cheers,
James
x
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Originally Posted by Randyman
That's where they could substitute a honky tonk piano, it'd be used far more. Does anybody use the harpsichord on DPs?

Yes. And I never use the Honky-Tonk sound.
+1
Honky-Tonk sound on the MP11SE is nice:



I don't know if you can get the same result with the Upright + Chorus.
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
I don't think I will, but feel free to ask me anything while I still have both, they're picking up the ES520 tomorrow

Do you have a hunch for the ES920 where they shaved off those 5kg from the ES8? Do you think the key action was affected (supposedly still RHIII)? Does the case generally feel solid, and how does it compare to the ES520 and ES110?
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
I don't think I will, but feel free to ask me anything while I still have both, they're picking up the ES520 tomorrow

I own the 110 (for 3.5 months or so now).

No 520 / in local stores yet, so what again did you like about the 520 > the 110 re: sound? Thanks....
+1. I don't use the harpsichord myself but there's a lot of repertoire out there for it and I've heard the tone used in several of my daughter's piano recitals this year. Never had a use for or heard the honky tonk sound myself, but with the whole Covid thing I usually don't find myself in an old west saloon anymore wink
Originally Posted by Siberialina
Honky tonk is a must for me.

Put that in your Tinder profile and people will swipe left all day long.
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
And I never use the Honky-Tonk sound.

+1

The K-60 upright piano sound is much better than any Honky-Tonk piano sound I've ever played.

Cheers,
James
x
So the K-60 upright is what is in the new ES boards?

I have mixed feelings about most uprights on DPs. Often the right hand is a delightful change, but the left hand can be somewhat extreme in a slightly out-of-tune way (not that it necessarily is out of tune). I hear a lot of folks on KC forum say it's often their go to piano, cuts thru nicely in a mix. Was cool to have a number of uprights to choose from with Nord boards, the Bosendorpher? samples sound almost like a grand but with more character/flavor.
Originally Posted by _sem_
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
I don't think I will, but feel free to ask me anything while I still have both, they're picking up the ES520 tomorrow

Do you have a hunch for the ES920 where they shaved off those 5kg from the ES8? Do you think the key action was affected (supposedly still RHIII)? Does the case generally feel solid, and how does it compare to the ES520 and ES110?

I never tried the ES8, but I guess it had a bunch of metal? Both the ES520 and the ES920 seem solid enough, to be honest, not sure where the extra 2.5KG of the 920 come from, seems weird if that all comes from the keys
Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
I don't think I will, but feel free to ask me anything while I still have both, they're picking up the ES520 tomorrow

I own the 110 (for 3.5 months or so now).

No 520 / in local stores yet, so what again did you like about the 520 > the 110 re: sound? Thanks....

The 520 already went back, but as I said, sound felt very similar. There's the SK-5 sound, a Pop Grand 2 (I prefer the Pop Grand) and a couple other variations, but nothing significant. Other people with more experience might notice more changes in the details of the sound, but I didn't. The reason I went for the 920 was the improved rhythm feature, the mp3 recording, and the better key action which I think might be useful to me later on (I only have 6 months of playing so far). Even though I didn't notice that much difference, I'm thinking that further along I'll noticed it more as it's supposed to be better, at least judging by the ES8 vs ES110 reviews I found online, and since it doesn't feel heavier than the 520, and decided to go for it
I frequently use the harpsichord. And I would never use a “honky-tonk” sound, even though I often accompany silent films and play ragtime. An out-of-tune piano only mocks the art form. If you need sounds that are not musical, like honky-tonk pianos or toy pianos, you can get software on your iPad and play it with MIDI.
+1... And because harpsichords in DP are so bad, there is no onboard substitute for pianoteq...
Here's another "demo" of the ES920 (including harpsichord sound):



Isn't it strange that, so far, there's only one professional review online (here)? And that there's not even a Kawai promo video?
Originally Posted by Mickey_
...
Isn't it strange that, so far, there's only one professional review online (here)? And that there's not even a Kawai promo video?

There was not even a teaser photo campaign! And people here were banned for a month without warning for posting links to leaked specs, what for? smile smile smile
What did I just watch....
That salmon shirt guy has pretty big arms for a pianist.
Originally Posted by _sem_
Originally Posted by Mickey_
Isn't it strange that, so far, there's only one professional review online (here)? And that there's not even a Kawai promo video?

There was not even a teaser photo campaign! And people here were banned for a month without warning for posting links to leaked specs, what for? smile smile smile

Well, I do understand that they did not like people posting information not intended to be shared publicly at that time. But now that the ES520 and the ES920 were released, I really think they should do some more marketing.

Originally Posted by Gombessa
What did I just watch....

My reaction exactly!

Originally Posted by jeffcat
That salmon shirt guy has pretty big arms for a pianist.

So, we now have black shirt guy and salmon shirt guy. Who is next? Leather jacket guy? :-)
OMG I haven’t laughed so hard in weeks. Is that you guys pulling my leg again?
Originally Posted by Mickey_
Here's another "demo" of the ES920 (including harpsichord sound):



Isn't it strange that, so far, there's only one professional review online (here)? And that there's not even a Kawai promo video?
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
The reason I went for the 920 was the improved rhythm feature, the mp3 recording, and the better key action which I think might be useful to me later on (I only have 6 months of playing so far). Even though I didn't notice that much difference, I'm thinking that further along I'll noticed it more as it's supposed to be better, at least judging by the ES8 vs ES110 reviews I found online, and since it doesn't feel heavier than the 520, and decided to go for it

Thanks. I'd like the extra features of the 520 > 110, but the 110 action really suits me well (1969, on and off on piano over the decades; saxophone continuously since 1973; currently, they compete for attention).

I also own the MP11 (a few years old); the record to flash drive function is really useful, even with computers, because it's instant.

What style(s) are you into? If you have anything iOS, there's a GREAT drum app called "drum genius" that has by far the best Jazz (and other styles) drum loops. It's insane.
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
The reason I went for the 920 was the improved rhythm feature, the mp3 recording, and the better key action which I think might be useful to me later on (I only have 6 months of playing so far). Even though I didn't notice that much difference, I'm thinking that further along I'll noticed it more as it's supposed to be better, at least judging by the ES8 vs ES110 reviews I found online, and since it doesn't feel heavier than the 520, and decided to go for it

Thanks. I'd like the extra features of the 520 > 110, but the 110 action really suits me well (1969, on and off on piano over the decades; saxophone continuously since 1973; currently, they compete for attention).

I also own the MP11 (a few years old); the record to flash drive function is really useful, even with computers, because it's instant.

What style(s) are you into? If you have anything iOS, there's a GREAT drum app called "drum genius" that has by far the best Jazz (and other styles) drum loops. It's insane.
Originally Posted by jeffcat
That salmon shirt guy has pretty big arms for a pianist.
When you talk about salmon color, usually you talk about a pinkish-orange-red colors, named after the color of salmon flesh... But the only red/orange thing I see is on the head of that guy... laugh
Originally Posted by Mickey_
Isn't it strange that, so far, there's only one professional review online (here)? And that there's not even a Kawai promo video?

Ha!



Originally Posted by magicpiano
Originally Posted by jeffcat
That salmon shirt guy has pretty big arms for a pianist.
When you talk about salmon color, usually you talk about a pinkish-orange-red colors, named after the color of salmon flesh... But the only red/orange thing I see is on the head of that guy... laugh

are you sure your screen is setup right, that jazz piano guys' shirt is salmon. I guess you could call it salmon pink, but I have seen people refer to that color as salmon, and I've definitely seen salmon fish close to that color.
Originally Posted by jeffcat
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Originally Posted by jeffcat
That salmon shirt guy has pretty big arms for a pianist.
When you talk about salmon color, usually you talk about a pinkish-orange-red colors, named after the color of salmon flesh... But the only red/orange thing I see is on the head of that guy... laugh

are you sure your screen is setup right, that jazz piano guys' shirt is salmon. I guess you could call it salmon pink, but I have seen people refer to that color as salmon, and I've definitely seen salmon fish close to that color.
Are we talking about the same guy? I mean this:

[Linked Image]
Maybe a case of visual Yanny/Laurel? LOL.

The pullover of the guy looks gray to me, not salmon. Maybe I am on the Yanny bank. smile
Originally Posted by EVC2017
Maybe a case of visual Yanny/Laurel? LOL.

Or this one (remember?):

[Linked Image]

On a more serious note, jeffcat: As you are later on adding...

Originally Posted by jeffcat
are you sure your screen is setup right, that jazz piano guys' shirt is salmon.

...are you talking of Yacine? (However, that'd be red, wouldn't it? :-))

Talking about appearance(s): I like the design of the ES520 and the ES920 (as shown in Kawai's short promo videos) quite a lot.
Originally Posted by Mickey_
...are you talking of Yacine? (However, that'd be red, wouldn't it? :-))

Talking about appearance(s): I like the design of the ES520 and the ES920 (as shown in Kawai's short promo videos) quite a lot.

Yea that's the video I'm talking about.

I'd call that salmon or salmon pink, but between everyone looking, the display color will depend on the accuracy of your monitor's saturation tracking and the gamut.
Posted By: Mac2010 ES920 and ES520 PIANO - 10/15/20 04:32 AM
This has been a very interesting debate about these two models. While I'm happy to learn about each other, which of these two would be best for a beginner?
Depends on your budget and need for portability. IMO, they're very close, but the es920 has a few more desirable features- a few more sounds, an upgraded sound engine and keybed, 4 band sliders for eq, ability to record to USB, etc. And for an upgrade it's only $400 USD more, reasonable. They're both very piano centric boards, both very desirable for someone interested in a solid piano experience.

However, the es920 weighs 5 pounds more! As someone who had a nord stage 88 at 40 pounds, it's too much. At 32 pounds for the es520, that's forgivable, given how much I like the action, and its upgraded sound system and features beyond the es110. But that's it, 32 pounds and no more!

As someone that doesn't work in tech, these boards are really pricey for me, and my hard learned lesson is that if you're a beginner and your budget is tight, don''t over buy! The es520 will give you a wonderful piano experience. But if you do have the budget for it, the es920 is just that more wonderful! Can't go wrong with either one.
Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
The reason I went for the 920 was the improved rhythm feature, the mp3 recording, and the better key action which I think might be useful to me later on (I only have 6 months of playing so far). Even though I didn't notice that much difference, I'm thinking that further along I'll noticed it more as it's supposed to be better, at least judging by the ES8 vs ES110 reviews I found online, and since it doesn't feel heavier than the 520, and decided to go for it

Thanks. I'd like the extra features of the 520 > 110, but the 110 action really suits me well (1969, on and off on piano over the decades; saxophone continuously since 1973; currently, they compete for attention).

I also own the MP11 (a few years old); the record to flash drive function is really useful, even with computers, because it's instant.

What style(s) are you into? If you have anything iOS, there's a GREAT drum app called "drum genius" that has by far the best Jazz (and other styles) drum loops. It's insane.

I'm into Blues and Jazz, but for now sticking mostly with 12 bar blues as it's much easier than playing jazz standards, I just started 6 months ago smile I have an Android, it also has the drum genius app, I've used it a little bit, but I use iRealPro most of the time. I play mostly at the evening after work, and this is where the Bluetooth audio feature of the 520 and 920 is great, and enough for me to want to upgrade from the 110. Either when watching lessons from JazzEdge or playing backing tracks on iRealPro, it's so easy and convenient to just plug the headphones into the Kawai and hear every thing together, without having to fiddle with a mixer and a bunch of cables. The extra weight doesn't bother me much since I'm not moving the piano anywhere anyway. And I also found the sound of the 520/920 richer than the 110. The difference from the 520 to the 920 is smaller than from the 110 to the 520, but the price difference is also smaller, and I thought, might as well go for it since I want it to last many years and not change again
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
I have an Android, it also has the drum genius app, I've used it a little bit, but I use iRealPro most of the time. I play mostly at the evening after work, and this is where the Bluetooth audio feature of the 520 and 920 is great, and enough for me to want to upgrade from the 110. Either when watching lessons from JazzEdge or playing backing tracks on iRealPro, it's so easy and convenient to just plug the headphones into the Kawai and hear every thing together, without having to fiddle with a mixer and a bunch of cables. The extra weight doesn't bother me much since I'm not moving the piano anywhere anyway. And I also found the sound of the 520/920 richer than the 110. The difference from the 520 to the 920 is smaller than from the 110 to the 520, but the price difference is also smaller, and I thought, might as well go for it since I want it to last many years and not change again

iReal Pro is fine too, try playing songs with the different styles, e.g., Take 5 as a bossa, etc.

I initially bought (and returned) the Casio PXS3000; it also has the Bluetooth audio in feature. I agree it's very handy to play along with (keybed is infamously hard). For me, the issue is weight: 25 versus 32 pounds (or more for the 920). I'm "on the road," sort of; Covid-stuck in La La Land and I take the 110 outside of the house to play in the yard. And I'll be schlepping it on public transpo back in NYC eventually.

As to action, the 110 is GREAT for be-bop. You want a light action to fly. I mean like McCoy Tyner, that's what I try to do. Check out his "Fly with the wind." All I really care about is action and weight. The rest is gravy. I use VST / Pianotec (although I also use the internal Kawai piano). I don't need the backing track feature at all (although the Casio had a great, simple Jazz groove that was fun to play along with).

The workaround for no audio in is a cheap mixer (only required with headphones). I just plug my phone or iPad into a Bluetooth speaker (Bose Revolution) or my Vox keyboard amp for non-headphone use. For headphone use, either the mixer or the Vox, as it has as it has headphone out.

I'll try the 520 if it ever shows up in a store, but if the action is heavier (I think you said it is), I'm sticking with the 110. And an extra 6 or 7 pounds isn't good for my particular application. My 80 pound MP11 stays put! I bought the 110 for portability.
Thanks for the reply. While I can afford either one I just wanted to make sure that I'm not overloading myself with piano features that I may or may not use. The biggest attraction to me is the Bluetooth capabilities as it will help me learn faster. However and eventually, i will get a teacher.


Thanks again.
Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
I have an Android, it also has the drum genius app, I've used it a little bit, but I use iRealPro most of the time. I play mostly at the evening after work, and this is where the Bluetooth audio feature of the 520 and 920 is great, and enough for me to want to upgrade from the 110. Either when watching lessons from JazzEdge or playing backing tracks on iRealPro, it's so easy and convenient to just plug the headphones into the Kawai and hear every thing together, without having to fiddle with a mixer and a bunch of cables. The extra weight doesn't bother me much since I'm not moving the piano anywhere anyway. And I also found the sound of the 520/920 richer than the 110. The difference from the 520 to the 920 is smaller than from the 110 to the 520, but the price difference is also smaller, and I thought, might as well go for it since I want it to last many years and not change again

iReal Pro is fine too, try playing songs with the different styles, e.g., Take 5 as a bossa, etc.

I initially bought (and returned) the Casio PXS3000; it also has the Bluetooth audio in feature. I agree it's very handy to play along with (keybed is infamously hard). For me, the issue is weight: 25 versus 32 pounds (or more for the 920). I'm "on the road," sort of; Covid-stuck in La La Land and I take the 110 outside of the house to play in the yard. And I'll be schlepping it on public transpo back in NYC eventually.

As to action, the 110 is GREAT for be-bop. You want a light action to fly. I mean like McCoy Tyner, that's what I try to do. Check out his "Fly with the wind." All I really care about is action and weight. The rest is gravy. I use VST / Pianotec (although I also use the internal Kawai piano). I don't need the backing track feature at all (although the Casio had a great, simple Jazz groove that was fun to play along with).

The workaround for no audio in is a cheap mixer (only required with headphones). I just plug my phone or iPad into a Bluetooth speaker (Bose Revolution) or my Vox keyboard amp for non-headphone use. For headphone use, either the mixer or the Vox, as it has as it has headphone out.

I'll try the 520 if it ever shows up in a store, but if the action is heavier (I think you said it is), I'm sticking with the 110. And an extra 6 or 7 pounds isn't good for my particular application. My 80 pound MP11 stays put! I bought the 110 for portability.

Skyscrapersax, that's pretty much what I think too.
Originally Posted by Mickey_
Here's another "demo" of the ES920 (including harpsichord sound):


And now, a similar video for the ES520:



To be honest, I don't know yet whether to laugh about or at the concept of these two videos.
Yes, laughable, but perhaps also poking fun at the pretentiousness of european pedigree and flamboyant piano expression.
Mickey_, have you looked at this very same thread, a few posts above? wink
Originally Posted by EVC2017
Mickey_, have you looked at this very same thread, a few posts above? wink

Yeah, sure. But that was the ES920 "demo", wasn't it? Or am I missing something?
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
...I want it to last many years and not change again

Well, good luck with that.
smile

2 years ago, I purchased the MP11SE and imagined it was going to be the end-all of digital pianos for years to come.

I just sold it and have the ES920 on order.
Originally Posted by Mickey_
Originally Posted by EVC2017
Mickey_, have you looked at this very same thread, a few posts above? wink

Yeah, sure. But that was the ES920 "demo", wasn't it? Or am I missing something?


OOPS! Right. Same silly STYLE video. To me it looks like an internal joke: only the teller has fun.
Originally Posted by dmd
2 years ago, I purchased the MP11SE and imagined it was going to be the end-all of digital pianos for years to come.

I just sold it and have the ES920 on order.

That's interesting to hear! May I ask you what made you replace the MP11SE with an ES920? Is it the greater choice of voices, or the lower weight, or...?

Originally Posted by EVC2017
Originally Posted by Mickey_
Originally Posted by EVC2017
Mickey_, have you looked at this very same thread, a few posts above? wink

Yeah, sure. But that was the ES920 "demo", wasn't it? Or am I missing something?

OOPS! Right. Same silly STYLE video. To me it looks like an internal joke: only the teller has fun.

Seems like it, yes. :-)
Originally Posted by Mickey_
Originally Posted by dmd
2 years ago, I purchased the MP11SE and imagined it was going to be the end-all of digital pianos for years to come.

I just sold it and have the ES920 on order.

That's interesting to hear! May I ask you what made you replace the MP11SE with an ES920? Is it the greater choice of voices, or the lower weight, or...?

Lack of internal speakers and weight and size and bluetooth.

And .... the early accolades on the ES920 activated my natural tendency to want the next "best" thing. LOL ....

I owned the ES7 and the ES8 and for both of those I found the keybed to be exceptional and the internal speaker system was very good on both.

I like the sound coming from the instrument and not from someplace away from the instrument.

If I use a VST, I can also pipe it back into my ES920 and out the internal speakers AND I can blend the internal sound with the VST sound and hear it from my instrument.

I can also add some external speakers and blend that sound into the one coming from the ES920.

So ... a lot of factors came into the decision.

The MP11SE is a great instrument ... but been there ... done that.
Thanks, dmd (Don), for taking the time to explain your reasoning behind this move – a move that, to me, seemed like a downgrade at first, but they way you're describing it, it really is more of a lateral move. What you're writing absolutely makes sense.

I hope you'll get your ES920 soon, and I wish you lots of fun with it!
Originally Posted by Mickey_
Thanks, dmd (Don), for taking the time to explain your reasoning behind this move...

+1, thanks Don!

Cheers,
James
x
Originally Posted by dmd
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
...I want it to last many years and not change again

Well, good luck with that.
smile

2 years ago, I purchased the MP11SE and imagined it was going to be the end-all of digital pianos for years to come.

I just sold it and have the ES920 on order.

And you have the es110, right? So comparative reviews are called for!!!!
Originally Posted by Randyman
Originally Posted by dmd
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
...I want it to last many years and not change again

Well, good luck with that.
smile

2 years ago, I purchased the MP11SE and imagined it was going to be the end-all of digital pianos for years to come.

I just sold it and have the ES920 on order.

And you have the es110, right? So comparative reviews are called for!!!!

No, I do not have the ES110.

I have it on order but product is back-ordered.

I wanted to get it while I wait for the ES920.

If I do not get the ES110 soon, I probably will cancel that order for the ES110.
Only now I watched the official Kawai videos and smiled because they are so "musically" edited. 😀
Originally Posted by dmd
[quote=Mickey_][quote=dmd]

If I use a VST, I can also pipe it back into my ES920 and out the internal speakers AND I can blend the internal sound with the VST sound and hear it from my instrument.

DMD, please, may you explain us how is it possibile to hear n external VST from internal speaker? I'm very interested to this chance. Do you use a PC?
Luca
Originally Posted by lucac
Originally Posted by dmd
[quote=Mickey_][quote=dmd]

If I use a VST, I can also pipe it back into my ES920 and out the internal speakers AND I can blend the internal sound with the VST sound and hear it from my instrument.

DMD, please, may you explain us how is it possibile to hear n external VST from internal speaker? I'm very interested to this chance. Do you use a PC?
Luca

Well, you need an AUDIO IN jack on your instrument.

I use a PC connected to my external audio interface and the output from the audio interface is sent to the AUDIO IN on my instrument.
[Linked Image]

The piano technician at WD Greenhill working on behalf of Kawai to fix the slightly rubbing B key on my ES920.

After Humpty Dumpty was put together again, it's now working perfectly.

The root cause was expected to be a little missing grease from the key guide, but was actually due to a slightly misshapen key. It was a straightforward swap.

Very happy with the ES920. Someone mentioned earlier about the Bluetooth audio being useful for learning - I can confirm that works really well. I often learn with headphones on, and to seamlessly play and listen to a guide track is a really useful feature. It's easy to pause, play, and move on, all with the headphones in play too.
Originally Posted by Adem
[Linked Image]

The piano technician at WD Greenhill working on behalf of Kawai to fix the slightly rubbing B key on my ES920.

After Humpty Dumpty was put together again, it's now working perfectly.

The root cause was expected to be a little missing grease from the key guide, but was actually due to a slightly misshapen key. It was a straightforward swap.

Very happy with the ES920. Someone mentioned earlier about the Bluetooth audio being useful for learning - I can confirm that works really well. I often learn with headphones on, and to seamlessly play and listen to a guide track is a really useful feature. It's easy to pause, play, and move on, all with the headphones in play too.

Hmmmm... don't know if I've seen dedicated boxes to enclose the speakers of a board before. And I guessing, being that the single speaker of each side is facing upwards, that the hole we see facing downwards would be for a passive sub. Do you hear an increase in bass if you put the board on a desk vs putting it on an open stand?
[Linked Image]

Yes, I think you're right.
Originally Posted by Randyman
Hmmmm... don't know if I've seen dedicated boxes to enclose the speakers of a board before. And I guessing, being that the single speaker of each side is facing upwards, that the hole we see facing downwards would be for a passive sub.

Built in speaker boxes are part of several console-style pianos, so they're not all that unusual. I'm guessing the hole is a bass-reflex port.
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Originally Posted by Randyman
Hmmmm... don't know if I've seen dedicated boxes to enclose the speakers of a board before. And I guessing, being that the single speaker of each side is facing upwards, that the hole we see facing downwards would be for a passive sub.

Built in speaker boxes are part of several console-style pianos, so they're not all that unusual. I'm guessing the hole is a bass-reflex port.

It is basically the same as in ES8. I agree with you about the port.

[Linked Image]
Originally Posted by dmd
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
...I want it to last many years and not change again

Well, good luck with that.
smile

2 years ago, I purchased the MP11SE and imagined it was going to be the end-all of digital pianos for years to come.

I just sold it and have the ES920 on order.

Why would you do that? I own the MP11. What does the 920 have that is better than the flagship?
Ah, now I see. It's all about the internal speakers for you. For me, it's about the keybed and not much else. Most professional stage pianos don't have internal speakers. Useless except for monitors unless only for a really small gig. Different strokes....
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by musicman100
Does the kawai app work with the 520 and 920? I have looked at the web site but not sure.

Not yet, however a forthcoming update to add support for the CA49, CA59, ES520, and ES920 should be released shortly.

Kind regards,
James
x

Here we go:

https://www.kawai-global.com/news/ca49_ca59_es520_es920_software_update_v110/

Kind regards,
James
x
Quick demo since fixing the key. Just a line out via Roland Go to my phone. No DAW or PC etc. Will try to do a proper video in the next couple of weeks.
Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
Ah, now I see. It's all about the internal speakers for you. For me, it's about the keybed and not much else. Most professional stage pianos don't have internal speakers. Useless except for monitors unless only for a really small gig. Different strokes....

Sorry that I did not respond to your question. Just missed it, I guess.

But .... yes, you are right. It is internal speakers AND BlueTooth audio AND (this may seem odd) even though the key action is considered very high quality (and it is) .... I find it a bit slow on the up-stroke. Mind you, I have no scientific data to back that up ...,. It is just a sense I have as I play. It may not be true at all.

AND .... the weight is also something that I have grown weary of ... even though I seldom move it .... I know .... seems silly .... but there it is.
Originally Posted by dmd
Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
Ah, now I see. It's all about the internal speakers for you. For me, it's about the keybed and not much else. Most professional stage pianos don't have internal speakers. Useless except for monitors unless only for a really small gig. Different strokes....

Sorry that I did not respond to your question. Just missed it, I guess.

But .... yes, you are right. It is internal speakers AND BlueTooth audio AND (this may seem odd) even though the key action is considered very high quality (and it is) .... I find it a bit slow on the up-stroke. Mind you, I have no scientific data to back that up ...,. It is just a sense I have as I play. It may not be true at all.

AND .... the weight is also something that I have grown weary of ... even though I seldom move it .... I know .... seems silly .... but there it is.

Hey, no problem! I can't have a heavy piano here. I have to move it outside to play each day. My 80 pound Kawai MP11 is 3000 miles away, I don't move it at all. 25 pound ES-110 is doable.

Which is slow on the upstroke for you? I play fast be bop, no problem, MP11 and ES-110. 110 can't do fast repeated notes like Chick, though..... Not triple sensor.
Another Unboxing and Review video for the ES920, including matching stand.

The reviewer says he took up playing the piano just nine months ago, so his approach certainly differs from that of an advanced player or a sales professional. The video is in German.



(No, that's not a lamp. That's his dog. :-))
Originally Posted by Mickey_
That's not a lamp. That's his dog
😁
Originally Posted by Mickey_
Another Unboxing and Review video for the ES920, including matching stand.

The reviewer says he took up playing the piano just nine months ago, so his approach certainly differs from that of an advanced player or a sales professional. The video is in German.



(No, that's not a lamp. That's his dog. :-))
Originally Posted by Mickey_
Another Unboxing and Review video for the ES920, including matching stand.

The reviewer says he took up playing the piano just nine months ago, so his approach certainly differs from that of an advanced player or a sales professional. The video is in German.




(No, that's not a lamp. That's his dog. :-))

is that cover extra, I certainly didnt get one in my setup...
Hey everyone. Happy to be part of this forum. I'm a newcomer so I hope not to make any mistakes, also because english is not my native language.
I've had this digital piano for about one month and now I'm returning it.
If you have any question, feel free to ask as it'll be my pleasure to answer.
Originally Posted by big-vern
is that cover extra, I certainly didnt get one in my setup...

It's extra. Something like that.
Originally Posted by 9190
Originally Posted by big-vern
is that cover extra, I certainly didnt get one in my setup...

It's extra. Something like that.

That might be useful for preventing scuffs when putting it away and getting it out again.
Originally Posted by dp7
Hey everyone. Happy to be part of this forum. I'm a newcomer so I hope not to make any mistakes, also because english is not my native language.
I've had this digital piano for about one month and now I'm returning it.
If you have any question, feel free to ask as it'll be my pleasure to answer.

Hi dp. Why are you returning it?
Originally Posted by Adem
Originally Posted by dp7
Hey everyone. Happy to be part of this forum. I'm a newcomer so I hope not to make any mistakes, also because english is not my native language.
I've had this digital piano for about one month and now I'm returning it.
If you have any question, feel free to ask as it'll be my pleasure to answer.

Hi dp. Why are you returning it?
Hey Adem. You'll probably find interesting reading this http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...b-2000-digital-piano-actions.html#UNREAD

You can find some answers there. Anyway I'll explain also here to you.

The DP itself is a good instrument, but I feel like the trade off made by KAWAI to save weight didn't pay back. The speakers, even at 70% volume (wich is pretty adeguate for home practicing), make really unpleasant vibrations and resonances through the body of the instrument (that makes great use of plastic).
Bass notes results in an unpleasant experience, and for my use the internal speakers are very important... The problem is not the power. The ES920 can get pretty loud. It's audible at max volume even from outside my house XD.
It's the clearness lacking because of this horrible vibrations. I don't know if I got a faulty unit or not, but also in a store another piano presented almost the same problem.
I'm really sad because the TONE of this instrument is glorious. I still don't know how I'll be able to salute the EX Concert Grand sample wich I loved SO much.

Also the keybed wasn't perfect. A couple of noisy keys after just few hours of playing is unacceptable for an instrument in this price range. I heard similar issues even with the old ES8. I understand a DP, like ANY instrument or object in general, will be subjective to wear, but this is too much. Some keys also lost a bit of their force to come back in position and I felt this right under my fingers. I'm very very sensitive, but I cannot stand this problems. Now I'm looking as you can read at a P-515 or FP-90, leaning more toward the second one after trying them all in person.

It's a pity KAWAI (if these are really this DP standards) didn't manage to tame those speakers with a more solid construction or improve a little bit the solidity of the keybed.
I really cannot hate this instrument like I did with my old FP-30.
I wonder how much of the market want lightweight premium portable DPs.
That's a shame to hear dp. It probably won't help to confirm that my ES920 speakers are excellent - doesn't matter if they're at 70% or 100% (hear it outside your house) volume, there's no vibration in the instrument at all.
I did experience a slight rubbing on one of the keys, which was changed by a technician under warranty (the key was actually slightly misshapen). It's now excellent.

Infermitydood, well I guess we've got 27 pages of interest in this one. In the UK at least, houses are increasingly small and expensive as young people are not able to get into the property ladder as easily as previous generations had it. So I would imagine many people, such as myself, are not in a position where they are able to have enough space for a piano that cannot be moved, or requires an additional amp. A portable is ideal for a flat, apartment or townhouse - even if you're not gigging.
Originally Posted by Adem
That's a shame to hear dp. It probably won't help to confirm that my ES920 speakers are excellent - doesn't matter if they're at 70% or 100% (hear it outside your house) volume, there's no vibration in the instrument at all.
I did experience a slight rubbing on one of the keys, which was changed by a technician under warranty (the key was actually slightly misshapen). It's now excellent.

Infermitydood, well I guess we've got 27 pages of interest in this one. In the UK at least, houses are increasingly small and expensive as young people are not able to get into the property ladder as easily as previous generations had it. So I would imagine many people, such as myself, are not in a position where they are able to have enough space for a piano that cannot be moved, or requires an additional amp. A portable is ideal for a flat, apartment or townhouse - even if you're not gigging.
Didn't know you have my same ES920: I really don't get it then... could it be a defective batch? Mine came from Thomann, but also the one I've tested at the store afterwards presented the same issue. Lot of vibrations and distortions due to the plastic frame I think... None of this problems were show by either the P-515 or the FP-90...

Did you notice any noisy key? How much did you use it?

The second part of your post is true indeed. If I had other possibilities I would have bought an upright or a cabinet digital. I have very little space unfortunately but I need to practice piano music everyday...
Regarding noisy keys - I'd agree that the keys are more audible than the Roland FP-30. If I press them down firmly, there's a subtle dull thump as it hits bedrock. It's not there unless I press it fully and firmly. Additionally if I press the key fully down, and release it straight up without any resistance, it can give a light double return. When playing normally, I don't tend to notice the noise and it doesn't bother me or catch my attention at all. I could perhaps see that it might bother some people though. I've been playing it for 4 weeks now.

I also had the FP-90 and P515 in my search, so I can relate to what you're looking for. For me, the tone of the Kawai was superior, and fortunately I haven't had the same speaker vibration issue. Best of luck.
I meant lightweight variants of slab DP's. This model obviously is cutting some corners to weigh less than, say, a P515 or a fp90. I too would rather have a DP which I can move around when I want to, but in that use case I wouldn't mind extra heft; as, relatively speaking, a cabinet will be much much more cumbersome! This idea is why I find the whole design methodology of this model to just not interest me (more so interest their pockets!). I find their sounds to be more inspiring than yamaha's so I am a little bummed out, but maybe if I try it out I'll find something to like. But there is already a lot that I do not (supposedly) like. More so I did not like the es110's key action, so I am not hopeful.

Alas, I am not looking to buy for a while, so maybe roland will update their lineup, but that's probably unlikely. If so I'll probably go for something that will feel more... premium. Fully plastic doesn't scream such an occurence, but, again, I guess I'll see when I try it.
I can't imagine that cabinet resonance from speakers turned up would be causing unacceptable buzzing, etc. How about the rest of the new owners? Kawai James? Has to be a bad batch.
Hello dp7, welcome to the forum, and thank you for sharing your thoughts.

It's unfortunate that your experience with the ES920 was not positive.

Best of luck with your next purchase.

Kind regards,
James
x
Originally Posted by Randyman
Kawai James?

I've tested a handful of ES920s, including playing at full volume etc. The sound was always loud and clear for me.

Kind regards,
James
x
I have become a lot more interested in getting hands-on with this keyboard after listerning to this recent atmospheric and tastefull demo;

https://youtu.be/hl3XTMV56E0

Could someone embed it (and maybe explain how its done?)
Originally Posted by Kawai James
I've tested a handful of ES920s, including playing at full volume etc. The sound was always loud and clear for me.

Thank you for that.

I was quite sure things could not be generally as bad as described but it is always good to get some reassurance.
Originally Posted by puff
I have become a lot more interested in getting hands-on with this keyboard after listerning to this recent atmospheric and tastefull demo;
https://youtu.be/hl3XTMV56E0

Could someone embed it (and maybe explain how its done?)

On your reply, press Use Full Editor. Then find the movie clapperboard icon. Press that and it'll prompt you to paste the YouTube URL there.

If you press Preview Reply you can check how it looks (and whether it worked!) before you press Post Reply.

Originally Posted by dmd
Originally Posted by Kawai James
I've tested a handful of ES920s, including playing at full volume etc. The sound was always loud and clear for me.

Thank you for that.

I was quite sure things could not be generally as bad as described but it is always good to get some reassurance.

If you're interested in quality assurance I was talking to the piano technician from WD Greenhill, who fixes pianos across a range of manufacturers. His view was that Kawai are right up there with the best and in his view have surpassed Yamaha and Roland. 95% of call outs to new digital pianos are usually a slightly sticky key which is resolved with a little grease in the key guide.
Originally Posted by Adem
That's a shame to hear dp. It probably won't help to confirm that my ES920 speakers are excellent - doesn't matter if they're at 70% or 100% (hear it outside your house) volume, there's no vibration in the instrument at all.
I did experience a slight rubbing on one of the keys, which was changed by a technician under warranty (the key was actually slightly misshapen). It's now excellent.

Infermitydood, well I guess we've got 27 pages of interest in this one. In the UK at least, houses are increasingly small and expensive as young people are not able to get into the property ladder as easily as previous generations had it. So I would imagine many people, such as myself, are not in a position where they are able to have enough space for a piano that cannot be moved, or requires an additional amp. A portable is ideal for a flat, apartment or townhouse - even if you're not gigging.

Same here, even at max volume I don't get any vibrations on my ES920. Even if I have a piece of paper on top of them (on the ES110 that would cause unpleasant vibrations). What keyboard stand do you had it on? It could have been because of not being firmly attached, a loose screw maybe?

Also, lots of people saying it doesn't feel premium because it's plastic, but to be honest I don't understand people's objection with plastic, plastic can still feel premium, and I think it does in the ES920
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
[quote=Adem]

Same here, even at max volume I don't get any vibrations on my ES920. Even if I have a piece of paper on top of them (on the ES110 that would cause unpleasant vibrations). What keyboard stand do you had it on? It could have been because of not being firmly attached, a loose screw maybe?

Are you referring to the totally groovy vibration on the 110 when you play? It's far out! I really dig it! My saxophones vibrate too, due to the column of air surging though the horn. Same feeling with the 110!
Originally Posted by dp7
Originally Posted by Adem
Originally Posted by dp7
Hey everyone. Happy to be part of this forum. I'm a newcomer so I hope not to make any mistakes, also because english is not my native language.
I've had this digital piano for about one month and now I'm returning it.
If you have any question, feel free to ask as it'll be my pleasure to answer.

Hi dp. Why are you returning it?
Hey Adem. You'll probably find interesting reading this http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...b-2000-digital-piano-actions.html#UNREAD

You can find some answers there. Anyway I'll explain also here to you.

The DP itself is a good instrument, but I feel like the trade off made by KAWAI to save weight didn't pay back. The speakers, even at 70% volume (wich is pretty adeguate for home practicing), make really unpleasant vibrations and resonances through the body of the instrument (that makes great use of plastic).
Bass notes results in an unpleasant experience, and for my use the internal speakers are very important... The problem is not the power. The ES920 can get pretty loud. It's audible at max volume even from outside my house XD.
It's the clearness lacking because of this horrible vibrations. I don't know if I got a faulty unit or not, but also in a store another piano presented almost the same problem.
I'm really sad because the TONE of this instrument is glorious. I still don't know how I'll be able to salute the EX Concert Grand sample wich I loved SO much.

Also the keybed wasn't perfect. A couple of noisy keys after just few hours of playing is unacceptable for an instrument in this price range. I heard similar issues even with the old ES8. I understand a DP, like ANY instrument or object in general, will be subjective to wear, but this is too much. Some keys also lost a bit of their force to come back in position and I felt this right under my fingers. I'm very very sensitive, but I cannot stand this problems. Now I'm looking as you can read at a P-515 or FP-90, leaning more toward the second one after trying them all in person.

It's a pity KAWAI (if these are really this DP standards) didn't manage to tame those speakers with a more solid construction or improve a little bit the solidity of the keybed.
I really cannot hate this instrument like I did with my old FP-30.

OK Im a newcomer to piano but my es920 was vibrating as well, once Id put some books on the supplied music stand it forced the stand into 'just' contacting the wall, this lead to distinct vibrations (as there is a fair bit of give in the stand) once the top edge of the stand was pulled away it was fine (contact wasnt obvious as the stand is clear and initial setup was away from the wall).. just on the off chance it was that..
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by Randyman
Kawai James?

I've tested a handful of ES920s, including playing at full volume etc. The sound was always loud and clear for me.

Kind regards,
James
x
Hi James. So do you think I received a faulty unit?
Before packing my ES920 again I made other tests and I found out that the audio problem was more severe when the sustain pedal was depressed. Playing multiple bass notes was producing an awful amount of vibrations.

And what about the noisy keys? How was it possible after only a couple of hours of use? Some of them were simply "clicking" when they rebound in position. Others felt weaker in their way back up. The worse of them all was one that felt also a bit "sticky". I'll post a video when I have some spare time to show it to you.

Regarding the audio problem, a second unit I've tested in a store presented the same issue. This is what made me take the hard decision to change brand because I assumed EVERY ES920 would have had this poor audio quality...
Originally Posted by dp7
...Regarding the audio problem, a second unit I've tested in a store presented the same issue. This is what made me take the hard decision to change brand because I assumed EVERY ES920 would have had this poor audio quality...

Did you play any other brands ?

If they presented the same problem ..... well .... then .... then maybe the problem lies elsewhere.

Just a thought.
Hello dp7,

Originally Posted by dp7
So do you think I received a faulty unit?

I'm afraid I don't know. However, if you believe the piano is not functioning correctly, you should seek assistance from the retailer (Thomann) or Kawai distributor/subsidiary (Kawai Europe).

Originally Posted by dp7
Playing multiple bass notes was producing an awful amount of vibrations.

If I was to select an electric piano sound, lay my arm across the bottom octave of keys, and play a cluster of notes at maximum volume with the damper pedal pressed, I expect I could probably cause the instrument to create a large amount of vibrations. However, this is obviously not typical playing behaviour.

Originally Posted by dp7
I'll post a video when I have some spare time to show it to you.

If you wish to send me a PM with a link to the video, I would be happy to take a look and tell you my opinion, however I'm afraid there is not really a great deal that I can do beyond this. Again, my advice would be to seek assistance from the retailer and/or Kawai distributor/subsidiary - this is ultimately more productive than trying to assess whether or not there is an issue with your piano via an internet forum.

Originally Posted by dp7
Regarding the audio problem, a second unit I've tested in a store presented the same issue.

Were you able to discuss this observation with the store's staff? Incidentally, may I ask why you opted against purchasing the instrument from your local dealer?

Best of luck!

Kind regards,
James
x
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Hello dp7,

Originally Posted by dp7
So do you think I received a faulty unit?

I'm afraid I don't know. However, if you believe the piano is not functioning correctly, you should seek assistance from the retailer (Thomann) or Kawai distributor/subsidiary (Kawai Europe).

Originally Posted by dp7
Playing multiple bass notes was producing an awful amount of vibrations.

If I was to select an electric piano sound, lay my arm across the bottom octave of keys, and play a cluster of notes at maximum volume with the damper pedal pressed, I expect I could probably cause the instrument to create a large amount of vibrations. However, this is obviously not typical playing behaviour.

Originally Posted by dp7
I'll post a video when I have some spare time to show it to you.

If you wish to send me a PM with a link to the video, I would be happy to take a look and tell you my opinion, however I'm afraid there is not really a great deal that I can do beyond this. Again, my advice would be to seek assistance from the retailer and/or Kawai distributor/subsidiary - this is ultimately more productive than trying to assess whether or not there is an issue with your piano via an internet forum.

Originally Posted by dp7
Regarding the audio problem, a second unit I've tested in a store presented the same issue.

Were you able to discuss this observation with the store's staff? Incidentally, may I ask why you opted against purchasing the instrument from your local dealer?

Best of luck!

Kind regards,
James
x
Thanks again James for your time.
I was asking if I got a faulty unit because according to other ES920 users in this forum, the audio department was totally fine even at max volume. That's very interesting to ear, because the second unit in the store with the same problem made me think that what I was earing was the standard audio output experience an ES920 had to offer...

The issues I've experienced didn't of course occured pushing the audio to its limits. I used a pretty fair EQ balance and the audio was never at 70/75% or more of its power capabilities. Before packing it up again to return it, I've also reset the EQ to normal and the problem was still there. Multiple notes like chords or playing some particular sequences with the damper pedal resulted in the resonances I was talking about.

It may be interesting to point out that when I first met with the FP-90, I indeed tried to stress it unnaturally, playing with the EQ sliders to boost at maximum the bass tones and still no unwanted sounds exept for of course an innatural sound.

I'll put in the next future the video where you can see the problem with the keys. I thought it was pointless to make a video for the audio problems because there would be too many variables (microphone quality, reprodution quality, compression an so on) to make somebody hear what was audible in presence.

I did not purchased the instrument in my local dealer because that wasn't possible! The nearest dealer that could have this type of instruments was at about 70/80 miles from me. In addition, Thomann had the instrument available waaay before this big store (and this is happening again with the FP-90). I sold my old unit and I was in a kind of hurry to have something to put my fingers on to practice everyday.
Eventually I went to this store after playing my ES920 to try and wipe away my doubts. I was lucky to had the chance to try all three of them because at that time I was only considering the P-515, but recently the FP-90 got discounted, so the price tag is now almost on par with the others.

ALSO, the 30 days return policies of Thomann, plus the 3 years warranty were other convincing points to me even if I would have been happy to purchase on a local store...

Going with warranty in this strange times was also a bit scary to me, cause I don't wanna spend too much time without an instrument...





Originally Posted by dmd
Originally Posted by dp7
...Regarding the audio problem, a second unit I've tested in a store presented the same issue. This is what made me take the hard decision to change brand because I assumed EVERY ES920 would have had this poor audio quality...

Did you play any other brands ?

If they presented the same problem ..... well .... then .... then maybe the problem lies elsewhere.

Just a thought.
Hey, dmd. I don't get what your point is. Are you assuming I'm demanding too much from some internal speakers? I've also thought that at the beginning, that's why I decided to see in person how the competitors were performing in this specific regard. As I said maybe in the "sub 2000€/$ actions" thread i opened a couple of days ago, I've also played a P-515 and an FP-90. They both had none of this resonances that even the ES920 besides them had.




Originally Posted by big-vern
Originally Posted by dp7
Originally Posted by Adem
Originally Posted by dp7
Hey everyone. Happy to be part of this forum. I'm a newcomer so I hope not to make any mistakes, also because english is not my native language.
I've had this digital piano for about one month and now I'm returning it.
If you have any question, feel free to ask as it'll be my pleasure to answer.

Hi dp. Why are you returning it?
Hey Adem. You'll probably find interesting reading this http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...b-2000-digital-piano-actions.html#UNREAD

You can find some answers there. Anyway I'll explain also here to you.

The DP itself is a good instrument, but I feel like the trade off made by KAWAI to save weight didn't pay back. The speakers, even at 70% volume (wich is pretty adeguate for home practicing), make really unpleasant vibrations and resonances through the body of the instrument (that makes great use of plastic).
Bass notes results in an unpleasant experience, and for my use the internal speakers are very important... The problem is not the power. The ES920 can get pretty loud. It's audible at max volume even from outside my house XD.
It's the clearness lacking because of this horrible vibrations. I don't know if I got a faulty unit or not, but also in a store another piano presented almost the same problem.
I'm really sad because the TONE of this instrument is glorious. I still don't know how I'll be able to salute the EX Concert Grand sample wich I loved SO much.

Also the keybed wasn't perfect. A couple of noisy keys after just few hours of playing is unacceptable for an instrument in this price range. I heard similar issues even with the old ES8. I understand a DP, like ANY instrument or object in general, will be subjective to wear, but this is too much. Some keys also lost a bit of their force to come back in position and I felt this right under my fingers. I'm very very sensitive, but I cannot stand this problems. Now I'm looking as you can read at a P-515 or FP-90, leaning more toward the second one after trying them all in person.

It's a pity KAWAI (if these are really this DP standards) didn't manage to tame those speakers with a more solid construction or improve a little bit the solidity of the keybed.
I really cannot hate this instrument like I did with my old FP-30.

OK Im a newcomer to piano but my es920 was vibrating as well, once Id put some books on the supplied music stand it forced the stand into 'just' contacting the wall, this lead to distinct vibrations (as there is a fair bit of give in the stand) once the top edge of the stand was pulled away it was fine (contact wasnt obvious as the stand is clear and initial setup was away from the wall).. just on the off chance it was that..
Don't get me wrong. It is completely natural that due to the audio output the instrument would slightly vibrate itself. Every emitting sound stuff vibrates when producing audio. I was talking about "resonances" of the body or the speakers themselves, that's what a manufacturer would likely want to be able to avoid. That's why we don't dare to put audio monitors on a flat surface that can generate undesired collateral sounds or distortions.
In my case, I can totally exclude that the problems were related to the support or other external sources.
Originally Posted by dp7
Hey, dmd. I don't get what your point is. Are you assuming I'm demanding too much from some internal speakers? ...

I am just trying to shake something loose here.

You see, this scenario you describe does not make sense to me.

It defies logic and probabilities.

Here is another chance for you to help me understand ....

When you were at the local store and tried the 2nd ES920 and found it also made that unacceptable sound ....

Did you bring it to the attention of anyone working in the store .... to see what they might say about it ?

I would expect that you did that .... but you make no mention of it ... that I have seen, anyway.
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by musicman100
Does the kawai app work with the 520 and 920? I have looked at the web site but not sure.

Not yet, however a forthcoming update to add support for the CA49, CA59, ES520, and ES920 should be released shortly.

Kind regards,
James
x

Here we go:

https://www.kawai-global.com/news/ca49_ca59_es520_es920_software_update_v110/

Kind regards,
James
x

I must say that the app is quite disappointing on the ES920 frown The piano goes into app mode and doesn't even show the selected sound in its own LCD, and if you change the sound with the builtin buttons the app disconnects and you have to connect again. And you can basically only select the sounds or play a set of builtin songs. There's no control of registration memory, recorded songs, rhythms/metronome, anything, just the very basics. Both the apps for the Roland FP-10 and the Yamaha P125 were miles ahead, especially given that those are lower end models, I was really hoping for something nice, there's really no use for the app, it's just a gimmick in the current form
And it's a shame that the Virtual Technician app for the Kawai models CN39/CN29/CN37/CN27/CN17/CN35/CN25/KDP110, CS11/CS8, ES110/ES8, CA58/CA48/CA28/CA97/CA67/CA17, CP1/CP2/CP3 exists only for iPad devices!! It's clear to me that they don't want to invest too much money on app development. At least not as much as Yamaha and Roland do.
What are good uses of piano apps? I've not really had any meaningful experiences with piano apps so have yet to really see much point so far.
Originally Posted by Adem
What are good uses of piano apps? I've not really had any meaningful experiences with piano apps so have yet to really see much point so far.
They are not fundamental, but they have their uses:

1) To change sound patches, piano options, Virtual Technician parameters, saving/calling presets, etc., with a nice graphical user interface on a big touch screen. And consider that many DPs have no display at all (ES110) or a very little one (and sometimes in positions not so easy to operate from the player perspective).

2) The app could show to me the score of a musical piece and with the sostenuto or una-corda pedal I could change the pages.

3) For piano lessons: for example, I select a musical piece, I play and the app shows me what note I'm playing in the score (and maybe it shows me if I'm playing a wrong note).

The Virtual Technician app does just the (1) of the above. And actually it works only on iPad
devices.



P.S.: I would add the following too:

4) To make an applause FX after I played a piece well.
5) To make a boo and disappointment whistles FX after I played a piece badly.
6) To make some cough FX about every 30 seconds of playing, to emulate a Concert Hall with public.

laugh
Originally Posted by Adem
What are good uses of piano apps? I've not really had any meaningful experiences with piano apps so have yet to really see much point so far.
Apart from the additional functions that are not always available from the DP controls, Yamaha being an example in some cases, the app offers a touch screen user interface that may be easier to navigate than buttons, a tiny screen or using keys.
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by musicman100
Does the kawai app work with the 520 and 920? I have looked at the web site but not sure.

Not yet, however a forthcoming update to add support for the CA49, CA59, ES520, and ES920 should be released shortly.

Kind regards,
James
x

Here we go:

https://www.kawai-global.com/news/ca49_ca59_es520_es920_software_update_v110/

Kind regards,
James
x

I must say that the app is quite disappointing on the ES920 frown The piano goes into app mode and doesn't even show the selected sound in its own LCD, and if you change the sound with the builtin buttons the app disconnects and you have to connect again. And you can basically only select the sounds or play a set of builtin songs. There's no control of registration memory, recorded songs, rhythms/metronome, anything, just the very basics. Both the apps for the Roland FP-10 and the Yamaha P125 were miles ahead, especially given that those are lower end models, I was really hoping for something nice, there's really no use for the app, it's just a gimmick in the current form

agreed, even as an early effort its woeful..
I will just put it out here.

Don't get ES920 if you have sensitive ear.

I got one and the speaker was faulty. I got a replacement, it also developed the same speaker issue, returned and got a refund. Disregarding the faulty speakers, some weird and unpleasant vibration and the absence of overall balance of sound was so obvious I almost threw up.

Other than that, it is a powerful keyboard - the settings that you can play with are awesome. You can even adjust the hammer sound, the key release sound, the damper sound and all. Also the keys feel amazing - truely superior (way better than yamaha NWX imo)


If you genuinely love Kawai, probably okay, but if you want to give a kawai dp a go, it's a huge nope.
Hello Cocotem,

May I kindly ask you to send me a PM outlining the issue you experienced with the ES920's speakers, please?

I cannot promise anything, but I would like to try to investigate this problem and have the matter resolved for you.

Kind regards,
James
x
I just ordered a new ES920 and in a local dealer. The salesman is going to come home to bring me the piano and mount the stand for me. Please, can you tell me exactly what to test to see if my unit has the same issue?
Hello Gustavo,

Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
I must say that the app is quite disappointing on the ES920 frown

Okay, thank you for your feedback.

Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
The piano goes into app mode and doesn't even show the selected sound in its own LCD, and if you change the sound with the builtin buttons the app disconnects and you have to connect again.

Correct. This is how the app and instrument have been designed to function.

Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
And you can basically only select the sounds or play a set of builtin songs.

It should also be possible to adjust settings and Virtual Technician parameters.

Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
There's no control of registration memory, recorded songs, rhythms/metronome

Yes, that's correct.

Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
I was really hoping for something nice, there's really no use for the app, it's just a gimmick in the current form

Well, I believe there are some owners who may prefer to select sounds and adjust settings via the app instead of the instrument's control panel. However, thanks again for your feedback.

Kind regards,
James
x
Hello big-vern,

Originally Posted by big-vern
agreed, even as an early effort its woeful..

May I ask you would be willing to send me a PM with some additional feedback, please?

Kind regards,
James
x
[quote=Kawai

Well, I believe there are some owners who may prefer to select sounds and adjust settings via the app instead of the instrument's control panel. However, thank you for feedback.

Kind regards,
James
x[/quote]

But why can't both work at same time? The apps from either Roland or Yamaha don't go to this kind of exclusive mode, I could select a sound either on the built-in buttons or the app at any point, not disconnecting the app. I'm sorry, but this is really bad UX and makes the limited functionality of the app very unusable.
Not sure if this is the right place to ask this, but I tried connecting the line out from the ES920 to both my Android phone and my iPad using a 3.5mm to USB-C adapter, but when recording video on both devices it still used the internal microphone instead and not the line out from the piano.

These are the cables that I used:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B0878VB16C?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title

and

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B0872RB8GF?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title

Anyone has any tips?
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
Anyone has any tips?

Get a device that's actually meant for recording audio.

That USB-C adapter is mainly a headphone output but of course there's the microphone support too.

(It's not an "audio interface" meant for feeding high quality stereo sound into a smartphone.)

But if insisting on using it then the cable from the piano to the USB-C thingie should have a "smartphone style" plug in the smartphone's end so that the (mono) audio from the piano would be connected to whatever tip or ring in the plug will transfer it to where the microphone signal from a headset would go.

So, that's not the right cable if such a cable even exists as a product. Maybe a combination of suitable cables and adapters is needed(?)

And then of course the app recording the video should have some support for external audio devices if Android doesn't automatically use them.
Since the Kawai App was being discussed, does it work for the ES-110? Thanks.
Kawai has several apps and the compatible models are described in the apps' descriptions in the app stores.
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
Anyone has any tips?

Get a device that's actually meant for recording audio.

That USB-C adapter is mainly a headphone output but of course there's the microphone support too.

(It's not an "audio interface" meant for feeding high quality stereo sound into a smartphone.)

But if insisting on using it then the cable from the piano to the USB-C thingie should have a "smartphone style" plug in the smartphone's end so that the (mono) audio from the piano would be connected to whatever tip or ring in the plug will transfer it to where the microphone signal from a headset would go.

So, that's not the right cable if such a cable even exists as a product. Maybe a combination of suitable cables and adapters is needed(?)

And then of course the app recording the video should have some support for external audio devices if Android doesn't automatically use them.

I wouldn't expect this simple setup to be high quality, I'm just looking for something simple to allow to record videos of me playing for progress tracking purposes without having to use the speakers of the piano so I don't make noise at night
I wonder why the name: ES-920.

What does ES stands for? Enhanced Stage (piano)? EX Sound (patch)? Elementary School (piano)? Elderly Stage (piano)? Electric Sheep (do androids dream of)? Earth Surface? Extra Soft? El Salvador?
I have to know!!

The 9 is because it is the successor to the ES-8. Then why the "20" after the "9"? It is because this DP came out in 2020? So we could expect the rumored new Kawai stage piano that will come out in early 2021 (with new case design and SK-Rendering Engine), will be called ES1021?

P.S.1: I was joking about the ES1021. It will come out in 2022. So it'll be called ES1022.

P.S.2: I was joking. It will come out in 2030, together with the Yamaha P-516 (with its new Trinaural Samples technology).

P.S.3: I was joking. Maybe.
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
Not sure if this is the right place to ask this, but I tried connecting the line out from the ES920 to both my Android phone and my iPad using a 3.5mm to USB-C adapter, but when recording video on both devices it still used the internal microphone instead and not the line out from the piano.

These are the cables that I used:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B0878VB16C?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title

and

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B0872RB8GF?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title

Anyone has any tips?

The 3.5mm adapter is not the right type. Phones (used to) have a single 3.5mm TRRS socket, two outputs (stereo) for headphones and one input (mono) for mic. The cable from the keyboard brings two line outputs (stereo). I'm not 100% sure but likely when you connect these, the phone output from the phone gets connected to the line output from the keyboard, and the mic from the phone probably to the ground. Not good ;(
Computers used to have two separate 3.5mm TRS sockets for headphones and mic (or even three, another for line in). Adapters between these and TRRS can still be found. But still phone has only mono mic input, and I'm not sure if the keyboard line out is suitable level.
You'd need an audio interface over USB-C or Lightning with a stereo line input, I'm not familiar with these for phones.
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
I wouldn't expect this simple setup to be high quality [...]

Alright, then the mono sound and the quality isn't really an issue.

Does your Android phone have the good old 3.5" headphone/headset socket?

If yes, eliminating the (then) unnecessary USB-C thingie might allow the camera app to record from the phones's own mic input. (Where you would then try to feed the piano's sound.)

Otherwise there are at least two problems:
- the correct cable
- luring the camera app (or a camera app from the Play Store) into recording via the USB-C thingie

I'd have a look if "TRRS breakout cable" as a search term finds something relevant. Such an adapter/cable would "break out" the single TRRS on the phone or in the USB-C thingie into a stereo output and a microphone input, hopefully.

Not necessarily, but possibly this: https://www.amazon.com/MillSO-Headphone-Splitter-Adapter-Compatible/dp/B071DMCZQF/

As they kindly point out on the product page there's this -- now mostly historical(?) -- CTIA vs. OMTP issue i.e. there is/were(?) two commonly used wirings for the TRRS in smartphones. Most (all?) modern devices are CTIA, perhaps(?)

(A lot of ? there as I don't claim to know for sure. )
Try « splitter phone mic » on Amazon. You will have TRRS jack to TRS (phone) + TS (mic, mono). Beware there are two types of TRRS use : CTIA (Apple) and OMTP (Nokia) (https://www.cablechick.com.au/blog/understanding-trrs-and-audio-jacks/)... perhaps CTIA splitter will be a more accurate key search.
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
I wouldn't expect this simple setup to be high quality [...]

Alright, then the mono sound and the quality isn't really an issue.

Does your Android phone have the good old 3.5" headphone/headset socket?

If yes, eliminating the (then) unnecessary USB-C thingie might allow the camera app to record from the phones's own mic input. (Where you would then try to feed the piano's sound.)

Otherwise there are at least two problems:
- the correct cable
- luring the camera app (or a camera app from the Play Store) into recording via the USB-C thingie

I'd have a look if "TRRS breakout cable" as a search term finds something relevant. Such an adapter/cable would "break out" the single TRRS on the phone or in the USB-C thingie into a stereo output and a microphone input, hopefully.

Not necessarily, but possibly this: https://www.amazon.com/MillSO-Headphone-Splitter-Adapter-Compatible/dp/B071DMCZQF/

As they kindly point out on the product page there's this -- now mostly historical(?) -- CTIA vs. OMTP issue i.e. there is/were(?) two commonly used wirings for the TRRS in smartphones. Most (all?) modern devices are CTIA, perhaps(?)

(A lot of ? there as I don't claim to know for sure. )

Unfortunately neither my phone or my tablet have good old fashioned 3.5'' headphone, just USB-C. I'll try out the TRRS splitter, thanks!
Originally Posted by _sem_
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
Not sure if this is the right place to ask this, but I tried connecting the line out from the ES920 to both my Android phone and my iPad using a 3.5mm to USB-C adapter, but when recording video on both devices it still used the internal microphone instead and not the line out from the piano.

These are the cables that I used:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B0878VB16C?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title

and

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B0872RB8GF?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title

Anyone has any tips?

The 3.5mm adapter is not the right type. Phones (used to) have a single 3.5mm TRRS socket, two outputs (stereo) for headphones and one input (mono) for mic. The cable from the keyboard brings two line outputs (stereo). I'm not 100% sure but likely when you connect these, the phone output from the phone gets connected to the line output from the keyboard, and the mic from the phone probably to the ground. Not good ;(
Computers used to have two separate 3.5mm TRS sockets for headphones and mic (or even three, another for line in). Adapters between these and TRRS can still be found. But still phone has only mono mic input, and I'm not sure if the keyboard line out is suitable level.
You'd need an audio interface over USB-C or Lightning with a stereo line input, I'm not familiar with these for phones.

I ordered this: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07KPY6BKG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
So my existing adapter has TRRS 3.5mm socket, and this one allows to plug the 3.5mm TRS line out to a mic socket expecting TRS. Hopefully it will work

If the line out volume is too low I can try the headphone jack in the front as well.

I guess the best quality option would be to save MP3 or WAV in the ES920, and do the video separately and then combine, but that's too much of a hassle for every simple use
> If the line out volume is too low I can try the headphone jack in the front as well.

It might be too high and sound distorted, try the same
Originally Posted by _sem_
> If the line out volume is too low I can try the headphone jack in the front as well.

It might be too high and sound distorted, try the same
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
Originally Posted by _sem_
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
Not sure if this is the right place to ask this, but I tried connecting the line out from the ES920 to both my Android phone and my iPad using a 3.5mm to USB-C adapter, but when recording video on both devices it still used the internal microphone instead and not the line out from the piano.

These are the cables that I used:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B0878VB16C?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title

and

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B0872RB8GF?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title

Anyone has any tips?

The 3.5mm adapter is not the right type. Phones (used to) have a single 3.5mm TRRS socket, two outputs (stereo) for headphones and one input (mono) for mic. The cable from the keyboard brings two line outputs (stereo). I'm not 100% sure but likely when you connect these, the phone output from the phone gets connected to the line output from the keyboard, and the mic from the phone probably to the ground. Not good ;(
Computers used to have two separate 3.5mm TRS sockets for headphones and mic (or even three, another for line in). Adapters between these and TRRS can still be found. But still phone has only mono mic input, and I'm not sure if the keyboard line out is suitable level.
You'd need an audio interface over USB-C or Lightning with a stereo line input, I'm not familiar with these for phones.

I ordered this: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07KPY6BKG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
So my existing adapter has TRRS 3.5mm socket, and this one allows to plug the 3.5mm TRS line out to a mic socket expecting TRS. Hopefully it will work

If the line out volume is too low I can try the headphone jack in the front as well.

I guess the best quality option would be to save MP3 or WAV in the ES920, and do the video separately and then combine, but that's too much of a hassle for every simple use

Ok, this adapter works, but the quality is really really bad when using the line out, lots of background noise, so it's useless, it's going back. Using the headphone jack didn't work at all, though, which was weird
Uh, I don't know if I'm allowed to know such unneeded information, but what exactly is 'improved' about the acoustic samples? Bigger sample size? The dozen new parameters? On that topic, is there any way to tell whether Yamaha's Resonance implementation is better than Kawais? They call it 'Modelling', and I am bit unsure to what exactly differs from that and Kawai's...Parameters?

Their next engine, SK EX 'modelling', is what is on the same footing, then, I suppose? Both are 'modelling'. I am probably misunderstanding something as is the plight of marketing baloney, so correct me if so.

Anyway this has given me a mild headache, and I will probably receive the same old, 'Listen to them and the one that sounds better is the one for you'. Yet, I am a little bit enclined to the technology side of things, and rather spoilt with knowing what the heck I am buying. I could make an analogy with phones but I am already leaving the intended purpose of this post.
Originally Posted by Mickey_
Originally Posted by MidiG
This guy seems happy with his 920. He doesn't play, apart from the intro, but gives reasons he went for the 920, comparing it with a number of organs/digital pianos/VSTs/acoustic pianos he's owned and played.


Thanks for sharing, MidiG!

I found this video very refreshing: It's, finally, an independent and very personal review, and as far as I can tell, the reviewer knows what he's talking about. While we don't have to share his opinions or agree with his choice, it's obvious he did his homework before deciding which piano to buy.

Would be nice if there were more reviews like this one.

He has just uploaded a follow-up, "it's been four weeks now!" video:



Thirty minutes of non-salesman candor – cool!
I'm not an english speaker, so can someone make a little summarizing of what that guy says in the above video? 30 minutes of talk is a little too much for my poor english capabilities...
Anyway I like much more videos (about DPs) with 1-2 minutes of talking and 28 minutes of playing rather than the opposite... smile
Originally Posted by magicpiano
I'm not an english speaker, so can someone make a little summarizing of what that guy says in the above video? 30 minutes of talk is a little too much for my poor english capabilities...
Anyway I like much more videos (about DPs) with 1-2 minutes of talking and 28 minutes of playing rather than the opposite... smile
He likes it, for the price! smile
Originally Posted by spanishbuddha
Originally Posted by magicpiano
I'm not an english speaker, so can someone make a little summarizing of what that guy says in the above video? 30 minutes of talk is a little too much for my poor english capabilities...
Anyway I like much more videos (about DPs) with 1-2 minutes of talking and 28 minutes of playing rather than the opposite... smile
He likes it, for the price! smile
Thanks for the comprehensive summarizing! laugh
Magic Piano, it has a very good action, excellent piano and EP samples, upgraded speakers from the ES8, a plastic, and thus lighter, case than the metal ES8, good connectivity, rhythm accompaniment.... for a decent price.
Originally Posted by IosPlayer
Magic Piano, it has a very good action, excellent piano and EP samples, upgraded speakers from the ES8, a plastic, and thus lighter, case than the metal ES8, good connectivity, rhythm accompaniment.... for a decent price.
Thank you! wink
Can anyone comment on using the Es920 to control a sound module?

From reading the MIDI manual;In multi-timbral mode it can receive Chanel and bank info FROM a device-including msb and lsb to change its sounds.

But can it also transmit MSB and LSB to change the sounds in the connected device?

I'm a bit concerned that it only can sent chanel info.

Is the Es920 an up or downgrade on the ES8 as a controller?
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Hello dp7,

Originally Posted by dp7
So do you think I received a faulty unit?

I'm afraid I don't know. However, if you believe the piano is not functioning correctly, you should seek assistance from the retailer (Thomann) or Kawai distributor/subsidiary (Kawai Europe).

Originally Posted by dp7
Playing multiple bass notes was producing an awful amount of vibrations.

If I was to select an electric piano sound, lay my arm across the bottom octave of keys, and play a cluster of notes at maximum volume with the damper pedal pressed, I expect I could probably cause the instrument to create a large amount of vibrations. However, this is obviously not typical playing behaviour.

Originally Posted by dp7
I'll post a video when I have some spare time to show it to you.

If you wish to send me a PM with a link to the video, I would be happy to take a look and tell you my opinion, however I'm afraid there is not really a great deal that I can do beyond this. Again, my advice would be to seek assistance from the retailer and/or Kawai distributor/subsidiary - this is ultimately more productive than trying to assess whether or not there is an issue with your piano via an internet forum.

Originally Posted by dp7
Regarding the audio problem, a second unit I've tested in a store presented the same issue.

Were you able to discuss this observation with the store's staff? Incidentally, may I ask why you opted against purchasing the instrument from your local dealer?

Best of luck!

Kind regards,
James
x
As promised...

Here's the video of one of the problems with the action of my ES-920. Few hours of playng with a 1600€/$ DP and this was the situation: some clicking keys, others that lost their fallback force, some others that felt a bit "sticky". The action itself it's pretty good to my taste. Does not come close to a real Acoustic (neither the P-515 or the FP-90 achieved this to me) but felt fun to play and pleasant. A shame that had all this issues with very little time of playing (these problems came out playing the instrument with proper manners of course).

https://vimeo.com/user126576778

I wasn't able to embed the direct video but I think it'll work anyway.




Originally Posted by dmd
Originally Posted by dp7
Hey, dmd. I don't get what your point is. Are you assuming I'm demanding too much from some internal speakers? ...

I am just trying to shake something loose here.

You see, this scenario you describe does not make sense to me.

It defies logic and probabilities.

Here is another chance for you to help me understand ....

When you were at the local store and tried the 2nd ES920 and found it also made that unacceptable sound ....

Did you bring it to the attention of anyone working in the store .... to see what they might say about it ?

I would expect that you did that .... but you make no mention of it ... that I have seen, anyway.
The salesman was pretty busy so he didn't spent much time with me (he also said to me that the ES-920 was the one with most watts delivered by the speakers, and this says a lot XD) I ended up concentrating myself only on the playing experience.
Feel free to think that I just imagined all that in my mind, mate, and I had fun going through RMA and staying without an instrument for some weeks...
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
So I decided to order an ES920 and compare it with the ES520. Here is my take:
* In term of sound quality, to be honest while I saw a big difference between the ES110 and the ES520 I couldn't see a noticeable difference between the ES520 and the ES920 straight away. But I only tried it for around one hour yet. There's a few extra sounds compared to the ES520, which is nice, but again, less of a delta than between the 110 and the 520.
* Unlike the ES520, I didn't see any weird issues with the ES920 software. It remembers the last selected sound in each category correctly, it remember metronome and rhythm section settings separately without resetting every time you switch between them, and it does save metronome/rhythm settings on registrations. Also you can jump that rhythms at the time by pressing and holding the rhythm and next button, so it makes it faster to go to the one you want, as you will only need 6 or 7 presses rather than 70 on average on the ES520
* The accompaniment feature is fun to play around with pop/rock stuff, but of course as expected it doesn't pickup jazz chords very well, so if you do R37 or R379 voicing it gets it right, but if you a R73 it doesn't. But that's fine, I mostly want to use the drums only. It's a shame it hasn't have a way to trigger the fill-in by pressing one of the pedals or something like that in addition to being pre-set to a number of bars.
* The keys feels nicer. I was worried they would feel heavier, and they are heavier than the ES110, but in the same ballpark as of the ES520. They seem to have the exact same matte finish as on the ES520, so no difference in slipperiness, but they are slightly less noisy, which is great. When you release them and they go back up, they are still noisy, but they rattle a little bit less than on the ES520, and the total noise ends up being more muffed than on the ES520. You can feel the escapement point, but it's very subtle. On the Roland it's much more obvious, but maybe that's one of the reasons the Roland keys felt so heavy

I will need to play a bit with it to have a better feel, but I think I'm keeping the 920 and sending back the 520.

Actually I just found that there is indeed a setting that allows the left and middle pedals to control different aspects of the rhythm feature. Great!
Is the RHC II in the ES520 the same as the RHC II in the Kawai ES7?
Thank you for your review..
I’ve read in the ES920 manual that it will not remember tempo changing in the middle of the song, but I’m still curious whether it can play recorded midi (.mid/.smf) with tempo changing in it or not, have you tried it?
Originally Posted by Pete14
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Under 38 pounds.

Pete, if you don’t understand the significance of that, you seem to have little grasp of how the majority of customers are buying these slabs...i.e. not “fully dressed” with the factory stands and pedal units. Portability aside, that part of the equation tends to ruin the value proposition in favor of just getting a lower-end console instead.

I still maintain that the go-to choice for portability are slabs without speakers. In many cases not even 88 keys are needed for gigging (unless you’re playing the Rach III), so 61 keys can do the job; further contributing to even smaller dimensions. It’s not all about weight when it comes to portability, and hauling 88 keys around is a pain in the arse regardless of weight.

I’ll be even more cynical: The weight reduction in these new pianos is not Kawai’s way of saying “you guys, we want to make it easier for you to haul around the ES-920”, but rather a shrewd decision to save on quality materials; they’re most likely using cheap, flimsy, light plastic, etc..!

Fender Rhodes had it "right" with 77 keys! (but not weight, obviously!). 77 hammer action keys, no speakers, lightweight plastic or aluminum, easy big buttons with no menu diving or piano key combinations, integrated VST / Pianotec (why not?) = ultimate gigging keyboard.
Hello all. Not sure if this is the right place to ask this, I had been looking to purchase a new (or used) DP to upgrade my old Yamaha YDP-213. I had been looking at something along the lines of:
YAMAHA P515 or P255
ROLAND FP90 or FP80
KAWAI ES920 or ES8

I was leaning towards the KAWAI as I have heard the action is a bit “lighter” which I tend to prefer, but after seeing the above video I am skeptical.

My budget was initially set at $2000, but I suppose I could convince myself to go as high as maybe $3000-$3500 ... I was reading about KAWAI’s novus sound engine, yamahas grand expression modeling ... are these features worth the higher price point?

I don’t “need” portability (although it is nice to be able to take out a couple screws and carry my YDP to a different location when need be).. The most important factors to me are action and sound, I could do without all the extra fluff (but if it might entice my kids to play, I wouldn’t mind it either!) My biggest hang up is living in central maine, I’ve got a 2.5 hour drive to NH or Boston to actually try out these models before I make a decision on what to purchase.

So I’m kind of at a loss. Anyone have any suggestions for a nice (at MAX $4000) DP in the $2000-$3000ish range?
Hi dp7, was it just that one key that was clicking slightly?
I got around to upgrading the firmware on my ES920 so I could try out the Piano Remote app.

So far it's only of limited use as it only allows the customisation and transition of sound. However it does it pretty well in my opinion. It's a more intuitive way to create new sounds, and it's very easy and smooth to transition between them.

The only criticism is that that's pretty much all you can do on it, at least so far. Personally I'd like to see it capable of navigating the USB menu, which is a pretty clunky experience on a keyboard, trying to find your way through the upper and lower case alphabet with little up and down arrows.
Originally Posted by casiobro
Is the RHC II in the ES520 the same as the RHC II in the Kawai ES7?

Kawai ES7 didn't have RHCII. It had RHII which is like the RHIII but without counterweights.
Originally Posted by Studiojobs
I was leaning towards the KAWAI [...] but after seeing the above video I am skeptical.

It shows one clicking key in one Kawai ES920 and Kawai will take care of it under warranty.

Is it a sign of a larger problem? I guess we don't know yet.
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
It shows one clicking key in one Kawai ES920 and Kawai will take care of it under warranty.

Is it a sign of a larger problem? I guess we don't know yet.

So it seem the damned click did not go away with the the new contact strips (and associated PCB) design. So we must resignate to the fact some Kawais just click. Live with that or go elsewhere.
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
It shows one clicking key in one Kawai ES920 and Kawai will take care of it under warranty.

Is it a sign of a larger problem? I guess we don't know yet.


Well.. I don’t have a lot of experience with buying DP’s, but I have purchased several new smartphones. And one thing that I have learned is, if you don’t want to mess around being a guinea pig, wait 6-12 months before buying something that was just released. I was excited at the prospect of a brand new model, but that video reminded me of my general “wait and see how it goes” rule :-P
I wouldn't worry. It's one key. One of my keys was rubbing slightly. It was very straightforward to fix in warranty, in my own home, without hassle. Speaking to the piano technician, it's pretty common for individual key problems like this across all the manufacturers. Often it's just one key guide that needs a little more grease.
Has anyone played these three in the high end price point and have a chance to compare them (Roland/Yamaha/kawai)? Is there a major difference in the action? Anything to watch out for? When I make my trip to Boston I will definitely report my findings on everything I try!
Originally Posted by Studiojobs
Hello all. Not sure if this is the right place to ask this, I had been looking to purchase a new (or used) DP to upgrade my old Yamaha YDP-213. I had been looking at something along the lines of:
YAMAHA P515 or P255
ROLAND FP90 or FP80
KAWAI ES920 or ES8

I was leaning towards the KAWAI as I have heard the action is a bit “lighter” which I tend to prefer, but after seeing the above video I am skeptical.

My budget was initially set at $2000, but I suppose I could convince myself to go as high as maybe $3000-$3500 ... I was reading about KAWAI’s novus sound engine, yamahas grand expression modeling ... are these features worth the higher price point?

I don’t “need” portability (although it is nice to be able to take out a couple screws and carry my YDP to a different location when need be).. The most important factors to me are action and sound, I could do without all the extra fluff (but if it might entice my kids to play, I wouldn’t mind it either!) My biggest hang up is living in central maine, I’ve got a 2.5 hour drive to NH or Boston to actually try out these models before I make a decision on what to purchase.

So I’m kind of at a loss. Anyone have any suggestions for a nice (at MAX $4000) DP in the $2000-$3000ish range?
Hi studiojobs. I think you'll may find this reading helpful. Bear in mind that I only considered "portables" DP under the 2000 price tag.
If you wanna pay more, of course the market offers other possibilities that other users will explain to you for sure.

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...0-digital-piano-actions.html#Post3039860



Originally Posted by EVC2017
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
It shows one clicking key in one Kawai ES920 and Kawai will take care of it under warranty.

Is it a sign of a larger problem? I guess we don't know yet.

So it seem the damned click did not go away with the the new contact strips (and associated PCB) design. So we must resignate to the fact some Kawais just click. Live with that or go elsewhere.
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Originally Posted by Studiojobs
I was leaning towards the KAWAI [...] but after seeing the above video I am skeptical.

It shows one clicking key in one Kawai ES920 and Kawai will take care of it under warranty.

Is it a sign of a larger problem? I guess we don't know yet.

Originally Posted by Adem
Hi dp7, was it just that one key that was clicking slightly?
Originally Posted by Adem
I wouldn't worry. It's one key. One of my keys was rubbing slightly. It was very straightforward to fix in warranty, in my own home, without hassle. Speaking to the piano technician, it's pretty common for individual key problems like this across all the manufacturers. Often it's just one key guide that needs a little more grease.
Hey Adem, nice to see you again.
As I said in my previous post, the whole action seemed a bit uneven after a very short time. That key wasn't the only one presenting that problem, but was the worse for sure. But because the instrument did not arrive like that, but started presenting these problems within I think 10hrs of playing, I though that that key was simply more ahead of others in term of "wearing", and so others will have followed him in few days (as probably was already happening). The action at D1 was perfect. To me it's unacceptable in this price range to have this sort of problems in this short amount of time. We're not talking about a 300€ keyboard.
Also, I perceived a different force of some keys when they were returning in position. With these keys, repetition speed was worsened by the lack of fallback force of the keys. The exact opposite of what happens with the P-515 (that is by the way exagerated).

I read A LOT before doing my purchase, and also the ES8 seemed a problematic product, even if the playing experience was stunning (just like the ES-920 was to me). I felt really bad returning my unit but with this damn COVID I need an instrument that will spend more time at my home than in repairing.

All bear in mind that I speak for my personal experience. Maybe all the other ES-920 are with perfect internal speakers and a durable and sturdy action/construction. After all, I loved anyway my KAWAI because of its beautiful tone. Wish I had the chance to keep it and be happy with it.
Hi! I saw that you were waiting for the FP90 instead, how do you like it compared to the ES920?
Not sure if this has been brought up, let alone answered, but when are these pianos available in the USA?
Hello dp7,

Originally Posted by dp7
As promised...

Thanks for the video.

I could not tell what was causing that knocking sound, however I expect your dealer would have been able to resolve this issue without too much difficulty.

It's unfortunate that you decided to return the instrument, but I accept that sometimes these things happen.

Best of luck with your next piano.

Kind regards,
James
x
Hello Adem,

Thank you for your feedback.

Originally Posted by Adem
So far it's only of limited use as it only allows the customisation and transition of sound. However it does it pretty well in my opinion. It's a more intuitive way to create new sounds, and it's very easy and smooth to transition between them.

I expect you're aware of this already, but tapping the sound name towards the bottom of the screen opens the editor window.

Originally Posted by Adem
Personally I'd like to see it capable of navigating the USB menu, which is a pretty clunky experience on a keyboard, trying to find your way through the upper and lower case alphabet with little up and down arrows.

May I ask if you can be more specific, please? Are you referring to the navigating the functions of the USB menu itself (e.g. Load Song, Save Song, etc.)?

Kind regards,
James
x
Originally Posted by EVC2017
So it seem the damned click did not go away with the the new contact strips (and associated PCB) design.

As you're aware, the internal mechanism of a digital piano keyboard action is pretty complicated. There are quite a few different components that can touch, rub against, or knock into each other, resulting in some kind of unexpected noise. As I mentioned to dp7, I don't know what might have caused the knocking sound when releasing the F# key in the video, however I don't believe it's necessarily the hammer sensor/switch.

Kind regards,
James
x
Hello Studiojobs,

Originally Posted by Studiojobs
When I make my trip to Boston I will definitely report my findings on everything I try!

Be sure to call the different dealers ahead of time to check that they are definitely open for business, and to clarify which models from the main manufacturers are available to play-test.

Kind regards,
James
x
Originally Posted by Mac2010
Not sure if this has been brought up, let alone answered, but when are these pianos available in the USA?

I don't believe these new models have started shipping in the US yet, however it's probably best to call your Kawai dealer and/or Kawai America for confirmation.

Kind regards,
James
x
Hello puff,

Originally Posted by puff
Can anyone comment on using the Es920 to control a sound module?

From reading the MIDI manual;In multi-timbral mode it can receive Chanel and bank info FROM a device-including msb and lsb to change its sounds.

But can it also transmit MSB and LSB to change the sounds in the connected device?

I'm a bit concerned that it only can sent chanel info.

Is the Es920 an up or downgrade on the ES8 as a controller?

According to my colleague in R&D, when Multi-timbral mode is enabled, the ES920's panel buttons transmit Program Change but do not transmit Bank change. This is the same specification as the ES8.

Kind regards,
James
x
Hello Gios,

Originally Posted by Gios
I’ve read in the ES920 manual that it will not remember tempo changing in the middle of the song, but I’m still curious whether it can play recorded midi (.mid/.smf) with tempo changing in it or not, have you tried it?

According to a colleague in R&D, the ES920 (and ES8) will playback SMF files that change tempo.

Kind regards,
James
x
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Hello dp7,

Originally Posted by dp7
As promised...

Thanks for the video.

I could not tell what was causing that knocking sound, however I expect your dealer would have been able to resolve this issue without too much difficulty.

It's unfortunate that you decided to return the instrument, but I accept that sometimes these things happen.

Best of luck with your next piano.

Kind regards,
James
x
I expected that too myself, but the dealer was in another country. So I should have waited for him to receive the product, Wait for him to see the problem, WAit for him to eventually send it back to a KAWAI assistance center, WAIt for them to fix the problem (that for what I knew could easily show up again if the problem was in the product "concept") and then WAIT for the DP to come again to my house. The fear that every ES-920 would present that kind of problems made my decision.
Maybe KAWAI should rise a bit the quality control on its products. Because I truly love the company even with the short time I spent with my ES-920 and when I play their grand when I have the chance.
I read a lot about them in the past, I read about the uneven space between the keys in the ES-110, the problem in the strip sensor in the ES-8 that they had to fix on the run, the pretty fast wearing of their products... And that's a true crime because It's a fact that I felt in love with my ES-920 even with its flaws.



Originally Posted by riceflour
Hi! I saw that you were waiting for the FP90 instead, how do you like it compared to the ES920?
Hey riceflour. My FP-90 is on its way to my house, it should arrive this week. So I guess I'll be able to tell you something more in the next weeks. All I can say right now is that with my comparison side to side at the store, the internal speakers were better on the Roland and also the dynamic response of the keys was on another level (the FP-90 has a modeled sound with 100 sensitive levels in the touch courve, so this may help in this regard). Of course I'm not saying the dynamic response in the ES-920 was bad. The Action of the two was pretty similar even though the Roland felt a bit more solid. The tone I think was better on the KAWAI. The tone of the KAWAI is something else. That's for sure. But I'll be able to tell more in the next future with a proper environment to test the new DP.
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Hello Gios,

Originally Posted by Gios
I’ve read in the ES920 manual that it will not remember tempo changing in the middle of the song, but I’m still curious whether it can play recorded midi (.mid/.smf) with tempo changing in it or not, have you tried it?

According to a colleague in R&D, the ES920 (and ES8) will playback SMF files that change tempo.

Kind regards,
James
x

Awesome! Thanks for the answer James...
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
Originally Posted by _sem_
> If the line out volume is too low I can try the headphone jack in the front as well.

It might be too high and sound distorted, try the same
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
Originally Posted by _sem_
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
Not sure if this is the right place to ask this, but I tried connecting the line out from the ES920 to both my Android phone and my iPad using a 3.5mm to USB-C adapter, but when recording video on both devices it still used the internal microphone instead and not the line out from the piano.

These are the cables that I used:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B0878VB16C?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title

and

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B0872RB8GF?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title

Anyone has any tips?

The 3.5mm adapter is not the right type. Phones (used to) have a single 3.5mm TRRS socket, two outputs (stereo) for headphones and one input (mono) for mic. The cable from the keyboard brings two line outputs (stereo). I'm not 100% sure but likely when you connect these, the phone output from the phone gets connected to the line output from the keyboard, and the mic from the phone probably to the ground. Not good ;(
Computers used to have two separate 3.5mm TRS sockets for headphones and mic (or even three, another for line in). Adapters between these and TRRS can still be found. But still phone has only mono mic input, and I'm not sure if the keyboard line out is suitable level.
You'd need an audio interface over USB-C or Lightning with a stereo line input, I'm not familiar with these for phones.

I ordered this: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07KPY6BKG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
So my existing adapter has TRRS 3.5mm socket, and this one allows to plug the 3.5mm TRS line out to a mic socket expecting TRS. Hopefully it will work

If the line out volume is too low I can try the headphone jack in the front as well.

I guess the best quality option would be to save MP3 or WAV in the ES920, and do the video separately and then combine, but that's too much of a hassle for every simple use

Ok, this adapter works, but the quality is really really bad when using the line out, lots of background noise, so it's useless, it's going back. Using the headphone jack didn't work at all, though, which was weird

Since Amazon has easy free returns 🙂, I tried a bunch of different things:
1) A few different combinations of USB-C to 3.5mm adapters plus TRS breakout cables, and of the 8 combinations I tried, 4 worked, but all had an annoying static background buzzing noise. If I set the line out very volume low the noise is not too much, but it's still not great.
2) A Roland Go:Mixer, but couldn't get it to work either with Android and iOS, it wasn't recognized as an external mic
3) The Focusrite Scalertt Solo 3rd gen. It works with both my iPad and Android phone, and there is no static noise, however the final video has all the sound on one of the sides, rather than having the mono signal from the piano duplicated on both sides 😕 I connected the L/Mono line out from my piano to the Focusrite with a TS cable, and didn't connect the R lineout anywhere, what am I doing wrong?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5Pprusttn8
Hello dp7,

Originally Posted by dp7
I expected that too myself, but the dealer was in another country.

Ah, I see. I believe some online retailers outsource support work to local technicians, who can visit the customer locally. However, this situation may be complicated by the Covid-19 pandemic.

Regardless, best of luck with your new piano.

Kind regards,
James
x
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
3) The Focusrite Scalertt Solo 3rd gen. It works with both my iPad and Android phone, and there is no static noise, however the final video has all the sound on one of the sides, rather than having the mono signal from the piano duplicated on both sides 😕 I connected the L/Mono line out from my piano to the Focusrite with a TS cable, and didn't connect the R lineout anywhere, what am I doing wrong?

I would not recommend recording a stereo piano sound in mono - the resulting audio will be narrow/compressed and not a realistic representation of the actual piano sound.

Kind regards,
James
x

Thanks, I've seen a few of those, but they are about fixing it for Windows. I'm trying to find a solution to record a video on either Android or iOS using the line out from the ES920 rather than device internal microphone
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
3) The Focusrite Scalertt Solo 3rd gen. It works with both my iPad and Android phone, and there is no static noise, however the final video has all the sound on one of the sides, rather than having the mono signal from the piano duplicated on both sides 😕 I connected the L/Mono line out from my piano to the Focusrite with a TS cable, and didn't connect the R lineout anywhere, what am I doing wrong?

I would not recommend recording a stereo piano sound in mono - the resulting audio will be narrow/compressed and not a realistic representation of the actual piano sound.

Kind regards,
James
x

Yes, I know quality won't be the best possible, but if I want to get the best quality, the built-in MP3 recording to USB function of the ES920 will be better than anything using line out, right? So I can record a video, and simultaneously use the internal recorder, and then replace the sound of the video with the MP3. However, it's a lot of effort, so for daily practice videos I want something simple that doesn't need any editing, I want to be able to just record a video on either Android or iOS using the line out from the ES920 rather than the device internal microphone through some kind of connection. The Scarlett Solo almost works, but I'm having this weird issue where the sounds stays all on the left side
> I connected the L/Mono line out from my piano to the Focusrite with a TS cable, and didn't connect the R lineout anywhere, what am I doing wrong?

I guess you are recording in stereo but don't have the R lineout connected anywhere. I guess you should either find a way to record in mono or to connect the R line.
Originally Posted by _sem_
> I connected the L/Mono line out from my piano to the Focusrite with a TS cable, and didn't connect the R lineout anywhere, what am I doing wrong?

I guess you are recording in stereo but don't have the R lineout connected anywhere. I guess you should either find a way to record in mono or to connect the R line.

If you connect only the L, the piano is supposed to detect that and output the mono mix, instead of just left, that's why it says L/Mono instead of just L, right?
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Hello Studiojobs,
Be sure to call the different dealers ahead of time to check that they are definitely open for business, and to clarify which models from the main manufacturers are available to play-test.
x
Thank you for the tip James. It will definitely be before Christmas, though I would prefer sooner rather than later! smile The places I have called thus far have all been ‘by appointment only’.
Yes please do report back on how you find the roland fp90!
Originally Posted by _sem_
I guess you are recording in stereo but don't have the R lineout connected anywhere. I guess you should either find a way to record in mono or to connect the R line.

I believe I'm correct in thinking that the Scarlett Solo only has 1 line-level input channel. If so, recording both the L and R outputs of the ES920 will not be possible.

Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
If you connect only the L, the piano is supposed to detect that and output the mono mix, instead of just left, that's why it says L/Mono instead of just L, right?

Yes, that's correct. However, I believe you also may need to configure the Scarlett Solo and/or its software to set the desired recording/routing mode. Please refer to the Solo owner's manual for more information.

Kind regards,
James
x
More precisely, the Scarlett Solo has two input channels but one of them is Mic only. Then it is suitable only to record a monophonic piano output : no stereo.
> I believe I'm correct in thinking that the Scarlett Solo only has 1 input channel. If so, recording both the L and R outputs of the ES920 will not be possible.

I think it has two mono inputs, mic and line. The odd thing is that the OP's recording has audio on one side only. Maybe it is configured to stereo in the recording software.
For actual stereo, keyboard line out would likely have to be adapted to mic level.
Why not just get an Android/iOS compatible audio interface with stereo input(s) and be done with the problem?

If the Scarlett Solo "almost works" is there a "Scarlett Duo" that completely works?
The Scarlett Duo is name Scarlett 2i2. I suppose we need a CCK to connect it to an iPad.

There is a IK Multimedia iRig Pro Duo I/O with a lightning connector.
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
The Scarlett Duo is name Scarlett 2i2. I suppose we need a CCK to connect it to an iPad.

There is a IK Multimedia iRig Pro Duo I/O with a lightning connector.

My iPad has USB-C. I ended up going with a Behringer U-PHORIA UMC202HD, which allows me to connect both L and R trough 2 separate TS cables, it's only 60£ while the cheapest I can find the Scarlett is 80£ for the Solo and 112£ for the 2i2, and it looks more discreet sitting on top of the ES920 since it's all black. Works great connecting to both my iPad and my Google Pixel phone.
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Why not just get [...]

These things do cost money of course. I do realize that. 😀
Bonners Music have just released a review of the ES920. If I'm not mistaken, this is the first review by one of the larger music stores – finally.

It seems to be gone now.
Originally Posted by Mickey_
It seems to be gone now.

Haha, and now I know why: There was a blooper right at the end of the video. Tony had to re-start his closing remarks - and they forgot to delete the first try. (Yep, I hadn't closed the window yet and thus have just been able to watch this video just now. I'm sure a revised version is available soon.)
Originally Posted by Mickey_
(Yep, I hadn't closed the window yet and thus have just been able to watch this video just now. I'm sure a revised version is available soon.)

Hi Mickey_. You were right, Mickey_. Here it is now, Mickey_.

I liked the original version better!
Originally Posted by Mickey_
Originally Posted by Mickey_
(Yep, I hadn't closed the window yet and thus have just been able to watch this video just now. I'm sure a revised version is available soon.)

Hi Mickey_. You were right, Mickey_. Here it is now, Mickey_.


Hi Mickey_. Please, try again, Mickey_. grin
Come on... Are you (they) kidding me?

The new stand is quite big.
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
The Scarlett Duo is name Scarlett 2i2. I suppose we need a CCK to connect it to an iPad.

There is a IK Multimedia iRig Pro Duo I/O with a lightning connector.

My iPad has USB-C. I ended up going with a Behringer U-PHORIA UMC202HD, which allows me to connect both L and R trough 2 separate TS cables, it's only 60£ while the cheapest I can find the Scarlett is 80£ for the Solo and 112£ for the 2i2, and it looks more discreet sitting on top of the ES920 since it's all black. Works great connecting to both my iPad and my Google Pixel phone.

Is this setup working out okay for you now Gustavo? Would you consider making a video to share how it sounds?
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by Adem
Personally I'd like to see it capable of navigating the USB menu, which is a pretty clunky experience on a keyboard, trying to find your way through the upper and lower case alphabet with little up and down arrows.

May I ask if you can be more specific, please? Are you referring to the navigating the functions of the USB menu itself (e.g. Load Song, Save Song, etc.)?

Kind regards,
James
x

Hi James
The whole process would work great in an app, but specifically, saving songs is the most difficult part.

Let's see the process of saving the song River Flows In You. This is realistically hundreds of button presses, believe it or not.



Therefore I have 3 options currently:
1. Navigate hundreds of up/down keys after each take
2. Take out the USB and go to a computer with it
3. Just leave them called Audio-000, intending to do it later *

*This is where I'm currently at. I have a lot of unnamed messy recordings!

This process could work great in the app:
1. Record
2. Stop
3. Save (name on phone input)
4. Play
Originally Posted by Adem
Let's see the process of saving the song River Flows In You. This is realistically hundreds of button presses, believe it or not.

River Flows In You. Sweet Jesus, please no sick

It's only for that song. It'll save any decent song with just one key press. The piano, like any real music fan, just wants to vomit at the very mention of that song. Too asinine and ubiquitous even for an elevator.
Originally Posted by EssBrace
River Flows In You. Sweet Jesus, please no sick

It's only for that song. It'll save any decent song with just one key press. The piano, like any real music fan, just wants to vomit at the very mention of that song. Too asinine and ubiquitous even for an elevator.

I was being charitable with that choice. Wait for my next video where I save Nocturne in E-flat Major (Op. 9, No. 2) with the up and down arrows.
Originally Posted by Adem
I was being charitable with that choice. Wait for my next video where I save Nocturne in E-flat Major (Op. 9, No. 2) with the up and down arrows.
Ok, then I book your playing of Hungarian Rhapsody No. 2 from Liszt. It should (barely) meet the EssBrace standards. Maybe. crazy
Sometimes i forget how snobby this forum gets when talking about musical genres/tastes sleep
Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
After playing more, while my favourite on the ES110 for blues and swing jazz was the Studio Grand, on the ES520 I'm liking more and more the Pop Grand sound, rather than the Jazz Clean.

Pop Grand > Studio Grand? Interesting. I'm a Jazz cat. Agreed Studio Grand on 100 is best.

After getting more used to the piano keys, I changed my mind, I'm not liking the Pop Grand so much, my favourites are now the SK Concert Grand and the Jazz Clean sounds
for those who own the es920, how are you liking the instrument?

also, what was your previous digital piano, if you had one and does it feel like an upgrade?
Hello Adem,

Thank you for the video.

Originally Posted by Adem
The whole process would work great in an app, but specifically, saving songs is the most difficult part.

Let's see the process of saving the song River Flows In You. This is realistically hundreds of button presses, believe it or not.

Therefore I have 3 options currently:
1. Navigate hundreds of up/down keys after each take
2. Take out the USB and go to a computer with it
3. Just leave them called Audio-000, intending to do it later *

*This is where I'm currently at. I have a lot of unnamed messy recordings!

Okay, I see.
Yes, I would probably do #3 also. It's usually necessary to normalise recordings (in an audio editor) before uploading to SoundCloud, or incorporating in video projects, etc. anyway.

Kind regards,
James
x
James (or possibly others),
Don't know if you have this information or are familiar with this side of the DP business, but wanted to ask nonetheless.

How much work is it for Kawai (or any keyboard manufacturer) to create a Librarian? I've run into the same thing with other keyboards as the poster who was complaining of the slow and tedious method of inputting a name. Considering the mind-boggling amount of time I spend on 'making a keyboard my own' (populating the User banks with edited versions of the Presets for example), this would at least make some of the super tedious work of pecking out a name and re-ordering User banks much easier.

In my case (Casio CT-X5000) they already have a utility that runs on PCs for transferring different file types to and from a USB stick, so they've already have some infrastructure in place. Like most people, I have no idea of how hard this might be to do. Just being able to use your laptop to change the names of your patches/recordings, and being able to re-order their place in whatever User area they are saved to on a board would be enormously helpful!

I suppose that creating a Librarian or Editor is an ongoing task, you'd have to update it sometimes depending on the OS of the computer. But is it really so hard to do, expensive, to create a basic Librarian? Seems like a slam dunk given the existing BT MIDI connection.

Thanks,
Randy
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Okay, I see.
Yes, I would probably do #3 also. It's usually necessary to normalise recordings (in an audio editor) before uploading to SoundCloud, or incorporating in video projects, etc. anyway.

Kind regards,
James
x

I'd usually only expect to normalise as part of a wider project. Feels like an easy win for an otherwise very low functionality app, given its practically unusable to name recordings.

On reflection, much more useful than changing a sound is.
Originally Posted by Gustavo Guerra
Yes, I know quality won't be the best possible, but if I want to get the best quality, the built-in MP3 recording to USB function of the ES920 will be better than anything using line out, right?

This is the same track as before recorded with USB rather than line out. Just a USB stick and an iPad (iMovie).

Thanks for sharing. I hope the lockdown is going okay over there.

Interesting colour grade, by the way.

James
x
So now it’s “colour grade”?

Whatever happened to good ol’ “color”? Is it passé to say ‘color’ in these #GenerationZ/millennial times?
I don't know why, but that white ES920 looks to me like a large bar of white chocolate. smile
Originally Posted by Pete14
So now it’s “colour grade”?

It's a professional term. 🧐
Originally Posted by Pete14
So now it’s “colour grade”?

Whatever happened to good ol’ “color”? Is it passé to say ‘color’ in these #GenerationZ/millennial times?
Here is a graph of the use of the 2 variants of the word in the last 2 centuries:
[Linked Image]

It looks like today the "colour" variant is mostly used by British people.
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Originally Posted by Pete14
So now it’s “colour grade”?

It's a professional term. 🧐

Oh, I’m sorry for being so unprofessional. blush
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Originally Posted by Pete14
So now it’s “colour grade”?

Whatever happened to good ol’ “color”? Is it passé to say ‘color’ in these #GenerationZ/millennial times?
Here is a graph of the use of the 2 variants of the word in the last 2 centuries:
[Linked Image]

It looks like today the "colour" variant is mostly used by British people.

That looks like a highly scientific graph; very professional, magicpiano.

You’ve earned yourself one Gold Star!
Ah, it was about the 'u'.

I'm so used to seeing either one form of "colour", "labour" and such that I didn't even pay any attentioun.

"Color grading" would be a professional term too, of course. 🧐
Ha, nice graph magicpiano. Yes, colour/color is one of many spelling differences introduced by Noah Webster, who simplified the English dictionary to create an American version. A lot of British folks still sneer about the American tweaks to the English dictionary. I'm probably in the minority of Brits that support the American version - we have plenty of historically weird words, with silent vowels and double letters - the simplification is an improvement to me.
Isn’t it weird how the ‘English’ suddenly lose their ‘accent’ when they sing?

Also, I can’t imagine John Lennon ever singing “Yellour Submarine”; that would just be weird.

Yes, yellour is a made up word, but to me, colour is no more real!

I don’t hear anyone out there still saying “dost thou hail from Yorkshire, where the men are men and the sheep are afraid” (except for Peterws, I guess); now it’s simply “where u at” or “you up”! grin
Originally Posted by Pete14
Isn’t it weird how the ‘English’ suddenly lose their ‘accent’ when they sing?

Some do, some don't.

And not just English, but e.g. Welsh and Scottish too. (We don't want to make them angry by calling them "English". 😨)

Americans might "lose their accent" too when singing.

Quote
There are several reasons we notice accents ‘disappearing’ in song, and why those singing accents seem to default to “American”. In a nutshell, it has a lot to do with phonetics, the pace at which they sing and speak, and the air pressure from one’s vocal chords. As far as why “American” and not some other accent, it’s simply because the generic “American” accent is fairly neutral. [...]

A song’s melody cancels out the intonations of speech, followed by the beat of the music cancelling out the rhythm of speech. [...]

Another factor is that the air pressure we use to make sounds is much greater when we sing. Those who sing have to learn to breathe correctly to sustain notes for the right amount of time, and singing requires the air passages to expand and become larger. This changes the quality of the sound. As a result, regional accents can disappear because syllables are stretched out and stresses fall differently than in normal speech. So, once again, this all adds up to singing accents becoming more neutral.

http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2013/08/why-british-singers-lose-their-accent-when-singing/
For completeness, that graph was from this article.
Thanks for that link, clothearednincompo (ever think of shortening/simplifying your name a bit? My auto-correct threw in the towel). wink

Is it fair to ask a ‘Brit’ to simply ‘sing it to me’ when I have trouble understanding their spoken version of a conversation?

Sing it to me, James! laugh
A short version would be C.E.N. or CEN.

Maybe I should just pick something completely different. (In the spirit of Monty Python?)

Would Gsus be too religious?

Or PestoAgitato if I really like Italian food and Beethoven?

Or the pivot length of the white keys on my piano? Too much room for misinterpretation?

What was this topic again? Ah, the Kawai ES920.

I still haven't bought it or played a one, so nothing to report.
The ES920 is not yet available here. December perhaps...?. I hope to get my hands and ears on one at the local Kawai dealer or Sam Ash in Jan/Feb and make a decision....or is that take a decision ;-)
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
A short version would be C.E.N. or CEN.

Maybe I should just pick something completely different. (In the spirit of Monty Python?)

Would Gsus be too religious?

Or PestoAgitato if I really like Italian food and Beethoven?

Or the pivot length of the white keys on my piano? Too much room for misinterpretation?

What was this topic again? Ah, the Kawai ES920.

I still haven't bought it or played a one, so nothing to report.

“CEN” is nice and easy and catchy!

Let us know if you decide to go with ‘the pivot length of the white keys........’

If you don’t want to leave any room for misinterpretation (envy) go for an average -goldilocks- size!
Originally Posted by Pete14
Sing it to me, James! laugh

Imagine there's no Pete14, it isn't hard to do.
No one to derail Kawai-specific threads, with off-topic nonsense.


(I'm still working on the second line)
Anyway, this ES920 speaker recording video was posted recently:

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by Pete14
Sing it to me, James! laugh

Imagine there's no Pete14, it isn't hard to do.
No one to derail Kawai-specific threads, with off-topic nonsense.


(I'm still working on the second line)

Ouch!

...but I must say, it is a catchy tune.......
Alternative version:

Imagine there's no Pete14, it isn't hard to do.
I have to say, it would be boring... A no off-topic world...
Imagine all Kawai people... go derail some Yamaha thread... Hu huuuu...

FIRST VERSE: completed.
magicpiano, what do you think about the use of the Kawai EX sound in the video above?

I know you have a preference for this sound over the Shigeru Kawai SK-EX.
Originally Posted by Kawai James
magicpiano, what do you think about the use of the Kawai EX sound in the video above?

I know you have a preference for this sound over the Shigeru Kawai SK-EX.
Hi James, generally speaking I like very much the clarity (almost Yamaha-like) of the EX sound especially in the upper range of the keyboard (the SK-EX sound is much mellower there...), so of course I like what I hear in that video and I see its author too likes to play with it more than the SK-EX.
Personally I feel it's much easier to get the dynamics I want with this (now very old) piano patch. So often I play with the EX patch, because I feel with it I can hear more difference (in both volume and timbre) between p and f and this is very good to me when I play classical piano music. And I think the stereo field of the EX is very nice.

But I dislike the very big volume in the first octave of the keyboard even if you play p/mp. I never listened to a recording of a real piano sounding so big in that range, so to me it ruins the experience. And I feel less detail in the first 2 octaves, compared to the SK-EX. If you play fast staccato notes, as in the above video, the first octaves sound good, but if you keep the notes pressed, the EX sound IMHO is unrealistic (in that low range) and the SK-EX wins hands down. It's like the engineers made it so that the EX could sound very strong in a mix even at the cost of being less detailed. And in the EX patch I dislike so much the sound of the F note in the octave immediately preceding the central one (bad/worn out felts in the original recorded instrument?)...

The SK-EX generally is nice, mellower, more round and detailed, but I think it has less "stereo effect" between the notes, and when you play f/ff in the middle octaves the sound soon becomes confused/compressed much more than the EX sound. And I feel there are some notes not well tuned between their 3 strings (for example the middle C) in the original acoustic instrument. Of course these are just my opinions.

So, at the end, we have 2 main piano sounds that they have both their good and bad aspects. IMHO the Kawai EX, and the SK-EX original acoustic instrument are fantastic pianos... and I think Kawai should resample them from scratch, both the EX and the SK-EX, from VERY well tuned acoustic instruments. And the engineers should find some way to preserve more high frequency details from the original samples. The current "undamped string resonance" effect, IMHO is ridicolous, almost inexistant to my ears. In a real piano those undamped strings make a big difference in the overall sound. I don't hear that in their DP versions...
Originally Posted by Kawai James
magicpiano, what do you think about the use of the Kawai EX sound in the video above?

I know you have a preference for this sound over the Shigeru Kawai SK-EX.

Oh, come on, James!

You know very well it’s karaoke time, and you still show up with all this homework.

And shame on you, too, magicpiano, for not further exploring your inner songwriter and going off-topic with all this comparing thing!

I ask, have we not compared enough? (Longest pivot, shortest samples, biggest shank, repetition lever, lack thereof, etc.......)



Let us get back to karaoke:

We are the champions
We are the champions
No time for Ab-dol
For we are the champions
Of........PianoWorld........



P.S.

Queen was way better than the Beatles!

How do you like them Apples!
Originally Posted by Pete14
Let us get back to karaoke: We are the champions

It's originally a Swedish song: "Vi är champinjoner" i.e. "We are Agaricus mushrooms".

Originally Posted by Pete14
No time for Ab-dol

Now you are being mean. Naughty Pete...

Originally Posted by Pete14
How do you like them Apples!

I'm a Windows/Android user.

Oh, and that lets-record-from-the-speakers-with-microphones-guy above has a few other interesting ES920 videos too including a comparison with a Yamaha grand. 🎹🥊🎹
Originally Posted by Pete14
[...]And shame on you, too, magicpiano, for not further exploring your inner songwriter and going off-topic with all this comparing thing!
I know, I always fall for it and I end up being too off-topic from the off-topic...
Quote
I ask, have we not compared enough? (Longest pivot, shortest samples, biggest shank, repetition lever, lack thereof, etc.......)
You know, the pivot is never long enough. And your neighbor's grass is always greener too. And I would not underestimate the "lack thereof" point.

Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
[...]Oh, and that lets-record-from-the-speakers-with-microphones-guy above has a few other interesting ES920 videos too[...]
Did you know those 2 little microphones (DP4099 Core Piano) cost as much as a middle-range slab DP? They are made specifically for acoustic piano recording. That's why the above video sounds much better then your usual HiPhone recordings... And IMHO the EX sound is better suited for the internal speakers of the ES920.
We are Agaricus mushrooms? I see myself more as cabbage...... wink


“You’re cabbage, Pete”, my mother used to say (or maybe she was saying ‘garbage’). I can’t remember, for you see, I developed a hearing problem one day after my father beat the sh%# out of me!

And here you guys make fun of me; a poor, old, short-of-hearing, slightly tilted to the left, Pete. Shame on you all!



“I work hard for the money and you gots to treat me right”!



P.S.

I’m mostly kidding about Abdol, but still I have to keep an eye on him (just in case). laugh
This thread is kind of like Camelot.

I can imagine some dad looking to buy his child a DP to learn piano, searching out this thread on Bing, and starting to read through it.

"On second thought, let's not go to ES520. Tis a silly place."
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Did you know those 2 little microphones (DP4099 Core Piano) cost as much as a middle-range slab DP?

😮

I didn't check the price, but I do appreciate his "If you are going to do it, then do it properly" approach. And his playing too.
Originally Posted by Randyman
James (or possibly others),

How much work is it for Kawai (or any keyboard manufacturer) to create a Librarian?

Just being able to use your laptop to change the names of your patches/recordings, and being able to re-order their place in whatever User area they are saved to on a board would be enormously helpful!

Seems like a slam dunk given the existing BT MIDI connection.

Thanks,
Randy

OK, no response from KJ or anyone. Given the poster who showed the video about the tedious and time consuming process of entering names, I think this question warrants some attention. Or perhaps feeding the nonsense monster Pete14 is more relevant than using these boards?

Kawai Jimmy or anyone with this kind of knowledge:
? How hard is it to create a Librarian? A simple one, just for being able to re-name and organize your patches.
? Does having the infrastructure with BT that the es520/920 uses for virtual technician, does that simplify creating a Librarian given that the in/out btw the computer and keyboard is already established?

Randy
Nonsense monster? I’m at most a nonsense puppy!

That being said, I do understand your frustration; however, the lack of a prompt response is not a referendum on us but rather on the difficult times we’re experiencing. We have been forced to let go some of our top advisers and are currently running on a limited staff. Rest assured that we have not forgotten you, and someone will be with you shortly.



In the meantime I will respond to one of your queries:

“How hard is it to create a Librarian”?

Well, you cannot ‘create’ a librarian, per se; however, you could hire one (preferably with glasses, for no one respects a librarian without glasses).


Sincerely,

Ben Dover
Agree it would be a useful addition.
Well, where's the documentation for Kawai's Bluetooth/MIDI interface for tweaking any settings?

Oh, it's proprietary? Then we can't really know how to create a librarian or is it even possible.

Give us the specs and we write the app.

But trying to reverse engineer it wouldn't be easy.

It's a long way from an idea to finished software.

(I know as I do it for a living.)
Dear Randyman,


  • no one replied to you because this is a generic forum, not an official Kawai support forum, so you cannot expect too much, and your question was very difficult to answer to, because we are not Kawai software engineers. How much is it difficult to create a software tool that communicates with a Kawai DP, via BT or USB, and allows the user to change the names of the presets from the computer? Who knows... You should ask Kawai support if they can give you a reference manual for the developer and then maybe it's possible some generic programmer could answer to your question.

  • Anyway, being that in some very rare moments I'm also a good guy, I will tell you a secret that you should not tell to anyone: on many Kawai DPs, ES920 included, you can download on an USB pendrive a file with all the registrations (presets) you have on your DP. This file will have a ".KM3" extension. If you open this file on your computer with an "HEX viewer" tool, you can see in clear ASCII text all the names of the presets. Of course, you can edit these name, save the file and re-upload it on your DP. In this way you can avoid the long and tedious button smashing you were referring to.


Yours sincerely,
MagicPiano
Originally Posted by Pete14
“How hard is it to create a Librarian”?

Well, you cannot ‘create’ a librarian, per se; however, you could hire one (preferably with glasses, for no one respects a librarian without glasses).
Not all the librarians have glasses, but be aware that some of them have a long dagger (I don't know about the pivot):

[Linked Image]
As PW’s staff coordinator, I could not be any prouder!

No sooner did I escalate Randy’s case (#44523) before two of our best -CEN and magic- took on the case and responded swiftly!

I must say that I’m happy I didn’t let go of these two when we were forced to layoff.

I remember telling the boss “if they go, I go”! That’s how much faith I had in these two, and dare I say that separately they are clothearednincompo & magicpiano, but together they are “CENMAGIC” the best synergy since bacon & eggs!
Hmmm...... very interesting! Thanks for the replies!


So maybe Kawai James is not a software guy, but surely sir, you can provide some insight as to why the this interface code is proprietary. I've seen quite a few librarians and editors made by end users, but reverse engineering to come up with the code already being used is a pretty large hurdle.

Yes, I suppose I could contact Kawai support, and probably will at some point,but I appreciate there being forum support for enquiries like this. When/if I make that request from Kawai support I'd like to be able to say that there was a lot of interest in making a simple Librarian available.
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Dear Randyman,


  • no one replied to you because this is a generic forum, not an official Kawai support forum, so you cannot expect too much, and your question was very difficult to answer to, because we are not Kawai software engineers. How much is it difficult to create a software tool that communicates with a Kawai DP, via BT or USB, and allows the user to change the names of the presets from the computer? Who knows... You should ask Kawai support if they can give you a reference manual for the developer and then maybe it's possible some generic programmer could answer to your question.

  • Anyway, being that in some very rare moments I'm also a good guy, I will tell you a secret that you should not tell to anyone: on many Kawai DPs, ES920 included, you can download on an USB pendrive a file with all the registrations (presets) you have on your DP. This file will have a ".KM3" extension. If you open this file on your computer with an "HEX viewer" tool, you can see in clear ASCII text all the names of the presets. Of course, you can edit these name, save the file and re-upload it on your DP. In this way you can avoid the long and tedious button smashing you were referring to.


Yours sincerely,
MagicPiano
Thanks for all the info! Your solution may be all that will ever be available. So you can re-arrange the order of the files as well I assume.

Yes, this is not a Kawai forum, but as far as I know, that doesn't exist, and this comes the closest to being one. It's always good to have an ambassador from the mothership. Most keyboard companies manage to have one or several:
- Bad Mister for Yamaha
- Brad Saucier and Chandler Holloway for Casio
- None that I know of for Korg
- Pablo Mastodon? for Nord
- Kawai James for Kawai

So the order I see:
- first see what kind of interest / support on the forum for a desired upgrade, and work out the likely options
- make a request, thru KJ to bring this request forward to 'the powers that be'
- contact Kawai support
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Well, where's the documentation for Kawai's Bluetooth/MIDI interface for tweaking any settings?

Oh, it's proprietary? Then we can't really know how to create a librarian or is it even possible.

Give us the specs and we write the app.

But trying to reverse engineer it wouldn't be easy.

It's a long way from an idea to finished software.

(I know as I do it for a living.)
Thanks for the info!

So, suppose the specs were in the public domain. How much work would it be to simply change names and re-organize file order?
Hello Randyman,

My apologies for overlooking your query.

I do not have a great deal of involvement in the software development side of Kawai's DPs, so am reluctant to comment on the "how much work would it be to..." question.

I believe the crux of you request is to be able to change the name/position of ES920/ES520 Registrations more easily, yes?
This kind of task could potentially be handled via the PianoRemote app. However, currently, the app functions independently of the piano - i.e. the piano's Registration memories are not synced to the app, nor can they be modified by the app.

I will raise this topic with my colleagues and keep you informed.

Kind regards,
James
x
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Hello Randyman,

I do not have a great deal of involvement in the software development side of Kawai's DPs, so am reluctant to comment on the "how much work would it be to..." question.

I believe the crux of you request is to be able to change the name/position of ES920/ES520 Registrations more easily, yes?

This kind of task could potentially be handled via the PianoRemote app. However, currently, the app functions independently of the piano - i.e. the piano's Registration memories are not synced to the app, nor can they be modified by the app.

I will raise this topic with my colleagues and keep you informed.

Kind regards,
James
x

Thank you!

Yes, it's to be able to change the name/position of ES920/ES520 Registrations more easily.

And while you're at it, this would be worthwhile asking:
A post from clothearednincompo:

Quote
Well, where's the documentation for Kawai's Bluetooth/MIDI interface for tweaking any settings?

Oh, it's proprietary? Then we can't really know how to create a librarian or is it even possible.

Give us the specs and we write the app.

But trying to reverse engineer it wouldn't be easy.

It's a long way from an idea to finished software.

(I know as I do it for a living.)
It's okay to keep some things proprietary.
© Piano World Piano & Digital Piano Forums