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Posted By: jeffcat You guys are infectious - 05/19/20 03:10 PM
At first, I thought, I don't really care about the action. BUT, you guys have contaminated me over the short time I've been here.

What is the best bang-for-buck DP on the Action front w longest pivot.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: You guys are infectious - 05/19/20 03:15 PM
Originally Posted by jeffcat
What is the best bang-for-buck DP on the Action front w longest pivot.


Kawai Novus NV-10. 26.2cm.

Some say there is more to an action than just pivot length, but we don't talk to those people here!
Posted By: MattLee Re: You guys are infectious - 05/19/20 03:30 PM
In terms of bang per buck starting with cheapest IMO Kawai CA48/49 then CA78/79 then NV5/10.

Roland has some good options like LX05/706/708. But they had higher price points and less availability for me the last time I checked.
Posted By: KevinM Re: You guys are infectious - 05/19/20 03:31 PM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Some say there is more to an action than just pivot length, but we don't talk to those people here!
+1
Posted By: KevinM Re: You guys are infectious - 05/19/20 03:32 PM
On a purely bang for pivot length buck, I suspect the Roland FP-90 might be the winner.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: You guys are infectious - 05/19/20 03:33 PM
You joke, jeffcat, but this ‘infection’ is very real and has already cost me too much!

When I first visited this place I had no idea about long/short pivots and their so-called effect on playability. Sampling vs. Physical modeling? (what the heck is that). Looping, short decay, stretching, low velocity count, folded action bad, escapement fake, new piano around the corner, digital pianos suck, etc.......

I kid you not, before I came here I did not care about any of this. I would buy a new piano only if my old one broke beyond repair. NAMM? what the heck is that, I used to think.

Fast forward to today, and no matter how much I like my piano, I have to upgrade every two years (or sooner) because, you know, Gombessa says there’s something new out there with better speakers!

I check into this infectious place everyday (giddy with excitement) waiting for Kawai James to announce something new, or for some member to have a link to paradise, or for at least some speculation on the next big thing. Needless to say, I rarely come across any of this, and my initial excitement turns into depression. But why? I ask. Why can’t I just be happy with what I have and simply sit down and practice.......

10 minutes later, I’m back here again; and round and round we go! frown
Posted By: CyberGene Re: You guys are infectious - 05/19/20 03:35 PM
Originally Posted by jeffcat
What is the best bang-for-buck DP on the Action front w longest pivot.

This is contradictory. Do you ask which piano has the longest pivot or which one is the best bang-for-buck piano among those with long pivots?

You had an answer to the first question. As to the second, the best bang-for-buck piano with a rather long pivot is the Yamaha N1X which is cheaper than the NV10 and has some unique features missing in the NV10, hence is better bang-for-buck laugh
Posted By: jeffcat Re: You guys are infectious - 05/19/20 03:59 PM
Has any member made a chart or table w/ pivot lengths ?
Posted By: terminaldegree Re: You guys are infectious - 05/19/20 04:07 PM
Once the pivot length gets too long, the need to reinforce the key or be very careful about the quality/selection of the materials increases. Otherwise the key will flex along its length, which completely negates the control advantages of having a long pivot length.
Posted By: CyberGene Re: You guys are infectious - 05/19/20 04:24 PM
I hope some members of this forum won't get offended but I believe one of the cleanest signs of being a PW n00b is to obsess with the pivot length alone and declaring it as the holy grail of digital pianos laugh
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: You guys are infectious - 05/19/20 04:28 PM
Are you saying that size DOES matter? smile
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Some say there is more to an action than just pivot length, but we don't talk to those people here!

To the original question ... I don't think there can be a meaningful answer unless someone defines "bang for the buck".

I know what a buck is, but how do you specify a quantity of "bang".
You cannot. So this becomes just another "I like this more than that" contest.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: You guys are infectious - 05/19/20 04:37 PM
Originally Posted by CyberGene
You had an answer to the first question. As to the second, the best bang-for-buck piano with a rather long pivot is the Yamaha N1X which is cheaper than the NV10 and has some unique features missing in the NV10, hence is better bang-for-buck laugh

I love how this topic is just destined from day 1 to be a quagmire smile

Let us not forget that the N1X and rest of the AGs may not even qualify as "long" pivots wink At a mere 23cm, they lose out in length to the Grand Feel I/II/III, as well as a number of folded plastic actions (Yamaha GrandTouch, Roland Hybrid Grand)! The silken glove thus used to slap your cheek, I cast it down upon the floor!
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: You guys are infectious - 05/19/20 04:50 PM
Now you've done it ...
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Let us not forget that the N1X and rest of the AGs may not even qualify as "long" pivots. At a mere 23cm, they lose out in length to the Grand Feel I/II/III, as well as a number of folded plastic actions ...
I'll need a new piano soon ... and just when I was leaning away from the NV10 and toward the N1X, you throw a stone at the latter.

What am I to do? frown
Posted By: KevinM Re: You guys are infectious - 05/19/20 04:59 PM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by CyberGene
You had an answer to the first question. As to the second, the best bang-for-buck piano with a rather long pivot is the Yamaha N1X which is cheaper than the NV10 and has some unique features missing in the NV10, hence is better bang-for-buck laugh

I love how this topic is just destined from day 1 to be a quagmire smile

Let us not forget that the N1X and rest of the AGs may not even qualify as "long" pivots wink At a mere 23cm, they lose out in length to the Grand Feel I/II/III, as well as a number of folded plastic actions (Yamaha GrandTouch, Roland Hybrid Grand)! The silken glove thus used to slap your cheek, I cast it down upon the floor!

I think all you need is acceptable pivot length. This is where CyberGene and I always cross swords. He thinks 18cm is ok whereas I disagree. I know 24 cm is fine since that is what I have with GF. I don't think I could tell the difference going down to 23 cm from GF, so somewhere between 18 and 23 is for me where the switch between having the touch control over the keys is good or not.

Key weight is also important, but it is made complicated that static weight is the easy thing to measure so that is what those who measure key weight measure, but I think the dynamic weight is more important so I've never been bothered with the key weight discussions. I'll just to wait until someone starts measuring and recording dynamic weight from keyboards I'm interested in.

As to wooden or plastic action, I just don't know how you could differentiate the two just on feel. To me wooden action is used for marketing as an indicator that the rest of the action is better quality than the actions you'll find that are made from plastic.

Whether an action is folded or not, I think is used as another marketing indicator. There should be no reason why a properly designed folded action could not feel exactly like a non folded action.
Posted By: CyberGene Re: You guys are infectious - 05/19/20 05:05 PM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by CyberGene
You had an answer to the first question. As to the second, the best bang-for-buck piano with a rather long pivot is the Yamaha N1X which is cheaper than the NV10 and has some unique features missing in the NV10, hence is better bang-for-buck laugh

I love how this topic is just destined from day 1 to be a quagmire smile

Let us not forget that the N1X and rest of the AGs may not even qualify as "long" pivots wink At a mere 23cm, they lose out in length to the Grand Feel I/II/III, as well as a number of folded plastic actions (Yamaha GrandTouch, Roland Hybrid Grand)! The silken glove thus used to slap your cheek, I cast it down upon the floor!

Yes, but the talk is about best bang-for-buck pianos here, which automatically excludes all regular digital piano actions because they are BAD. (their bang is close to zero, and so bang for buck is close to zero, so we don't consider them) wink And then there are the NV5 and NU1X with shorter pivots. So, we have NV10, N1X, NV5, NU1X, thus in a list of 4 pianos that are good bang, N1X is second, so it can be considered having "long" pivot in the pivot length competition. Then you add the real dampers in the NV10 which justifies the higher price. But then you add the binaural, the much more advanced hammer+key sensing system, multi-channel playback, USB-interface in the N1X.

And voila, we have the best bang-for-buck piano among those with long pivot!
Posted By: Gombessa Re: You guys are infectious - 05/19/20 05:13 PM
Ugh, I would love to agree with you, but I just checked the official table:

Code
Official PW pivot length table
----------------------------------

Short                                  Medium                                           Long
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NU1X (18cm)
NV5 (??)
     N1X/N3X (23cm)
                                     Steinway Model D (31cm)
                                                                                  NV-10 (26cm)

Hmm, a troubling thought just occurred to me, only you know where the Cybrid lies. The ultimate dark horse candidate!
Posted By: U3piano Re: You guys are infectious - 05/19/20 05:17 PM
I think all you guys that just have to have the longest of pivot lengths are just trying to compensate for something else.
Posted By: CyberGene Re: You guys are infectious - 05/19/20 05:19 PM
How come a Steinway that's 5cm longer than NV10 is considered "Medium" and the NV10 is "Long"?!

And how come N1X that's just 3cm shorter than NV10 is considered "Short" and is in the same ballpark as other pianos that are another 5cm shorter than N1X?

That table is made by a Kawai fanboy laugh
Posted By: CyberGene Re: You guys are infectious - 05/19/20 05:22 PM
BTW, the Cybrid trumps the N1X by just 0.5cm, just measured it at 23.5cm on the white keys laugh
Posted By: Gombessa Re: You guys are infectious - 05/19/20 05:26 PM
Hopefully people can tell here that we're not (wholly) just derailing the thread, we're just poking a bit of fun at ourselves. Pivot length gets brought up frequently here, and since it's quantitative and easy to measure (unlike just about any other aspect of how an action works/feels), it tends to get overemphasized when comparing actions. And lately it's become the latest "checkbox spec" by manufacturers hawking their high end DPs.

So yes, there is a difference in pivot lengths, and generally speaking, a longer pivot length makes for a more consistent keyweight from front to back. But there's a lot more to the story there....IMO, an objectively "short" pivot length such as the NU1X can feel easier to play and more realistic than a longer pivot length action such as a Yamaha GH or Roland PHA-50.
Posted By: CyberGene Re: You guys are infectious - 05/19/20 05:31 PM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Hopefully people can tell here that we're not (wholly) just derailing the thread, we're just poking a bit of fun at ourselves.
🍻 I was gonna say something around these lines, after I brought my infamous "why digital piano actions are BAD" thread into the limelight again laugh And thought some poor souls might get trapped again in that dead spiral of snobbery and word misuse I'm infamous for laugh

Anyway, I remember somebody asked me after I've owned the NU1X for a month, how I did feel about it having extremely short pivot length. And I realized I hadn't even noticed until then. I don't think it has ever affected my playing and I tend to play often close to the board.
Posted By: PapaJohn Re: You guys are infectious - 05/19/20 05:39 PM
Not much bank in the buck of a long pivot when the shank is cracked.

I jest, I do like Kawai. In fact, I plan on keeping my CA-95 when my new N(TBD)X arrives.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: You guys are infectious - 05/19/20 05:54 PM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
IMO, an objectively "short" pivot length such as the NU1X can feel easier to play and more realistic than a longer pivot length action such as a Yamaha GH or Roland PHA-50.

Are you saying it’s not the size that matters, but more how it’s used?
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: You guys are infectious - 05/19/20 05:55 PM
This is called marketing ...
Originally Posted by CyberGene
How come a Steinway that's 5cm longer than NV10 is considered "Medium" and the NV10 is "Long"?!
It's also known as bullcrud.

BS is everywhere. I opened a box of Cheerios a few days ago. It was marked LARGE SIZE. But it's the smallest size I've ever seen.

Small is the new large. And bull is the new crap. And none of that is really new, is it?
Posted By: U3piano Re: You guys are infectious - 05/19/20 06:02 PM
Originally Posted by Pete14
Are you saying it’s not the size that matters, but more how it’s used?

I wouldn't believe that, it's just something people with short pivot lengths say..
Posted By: Pete14 Re: You guys are infectious - 05/19/20 06:26 PM
Wow, just one more thing to be depressed about... my short pivot (P-515).
But one day, U3piano, one day I will have the biggest pivot in town: a huge D, Steinway D!
Posted By: kimby Re: You guys are infectious - 05/19/20 07:40 PM
Originally Posted by Pete14
You joke, jeffcat, but this ‘infection’ is very real and has already cost me too much!

When I first visited this place I had no idea about long/short pivots and their so-called effect on playability. Sampling vs. Physical modeling? (what the heck is that). Looping, short decay, stretching, low velocity count, folded action bad, escapement fake, new piano around the corner, digital pianos suck, etc.......

I kid you not, before I came here I did not care about any of this. I would buy a new piano only if my old one broke beyond repair. NAMM? what the heck is that, I used to think.

Fast forward to today, and no matter how much I like my piano, I have to upgrade every two years (or sooner) because, you know, Gombessa says there’s something new out there with better speakers!

I check into this infectious place everyday (giddy with excitement) waiting for Kawai James to announce something new, or for some member to have a link to paradise, or for at least some speculation on the next big thing. Needless to say, I rarely come across any of this, and my initial excitement turns into depression. But why? I ask. Why can’t I just be happy with what I have and simply sit down and practice.......

10 minutes later, I’m back here again; and round and round we go! frown

YOU ARE DESCRIBING ME!

My Yamaha P-120S was making me sad with a couple of busted keys. Well, I got those fixed for $20. And then a friend got a console DP. And I thought, hey, it's been 15 years! There must be something new.

A few thousand clicks spent obsessively checking this forum later, dozens of hours of YT reviews later, and quite a hit to the bank account later, I have a new CA79.

AND I'M STILL CHECKING THE FORUM - daily - also "giddy with excitement" for the same reasons! Oooh VSL you say? I have computers! How much more money can I spend on libraries?! Which one is "THE BEST"?! Hahaha!
Posted By: petebfrance Re: You guys are infectious - 05/19/20 08:03 PM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Ugh, I would love to agree with you, but I just checked the official table:

Code
Official PW pivot length table
----------------------------------

Short                                  Medium                                           Long
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NU1X (18cm)
NV5 (??)
     N1X/N3X (23cm)
                                     Steinway Model D (31cm)
                                                                                  NV-10 (26cm)

Hmm, a troubling thought just occurred to me, only you know where the Cybrid lies. The ultimate dark horse candidate!

Official Table! Where can I find that (please)?
Posted By: Abdol Re: You guys are infectious - 05/19/20 08:36 PM
Originally Posted by petebfrance
Official Table! Where can I find that (please)?

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2852613/2.html
Posted By: RudolfRSK Re: You guys are infectious - 05/19/20 08:56 PM
As Excellent as this Pivot Table may be, it's not the final Word. Someone made a Powerful Point that pivot length is OneNote to make about the piano, and my Outlook is that we shouldn't look at that alone when we have Access to a whole range of opinions and expertise here.

Publisher.
Posted By: jeffcat Re: You guys are infectious - 05/19/20 09:41 PM
So the Vibe is it just has to be, Long-Enough ? yes ? but not necessarily the Longest ?
Posted By: KevinM Re: You guys are infectious - 05/19/20 10:08 PM
Originally Posted by jeffcat
So the Vibe is it just has to be, Long-Enough ? yes ? but not necessarily the Longest ?

I think so, but what is long enough depends on the person, I feel no need for anything like the pivot length of a large grand though of course I would not say no to being given a large grand.

I don’t think I would like less than 22cm which is the length of the action in a Roland FP-90. That felt acceptable.
Posted By: petebfrance Re: You guys are infectious - 05/19/20 10:18 PM
Originally Posted by Abdol
Originally Posted by petebfrance
Official Table! Where can I find that (please)?

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2852613/2.html
Thanks. I remember that thread! However, I was hoping that there was a new list somewhere or other. Anyway, I've copied bits of it - will no doubt end up very confused, though.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: You guys are infectious - 05/19/20 10:32 PM
Wow, this pivot obsession is real! We even have ‘official tables’, judges, and connoisseurs.

Next thing you know, and we’ll be having an annual Pivot-CON; where we all proudly display our pivots and such!
Posted By: CyberGene Re: You guys are infectious - 05/19/20 10:40 PM
I look towards DIY-ers for something more free-style, like a monster-pivot competition. First some warm-ups like crushing regular pivots with a monster one. And then direct battles.
Posted By: camperbc Re: You guys are infectious - 05/19/20 10:45 PM
I suppose that my Casio PX-870's keys may possibly have one of the shortest pivot lengths, (I recall someone on here making that statement) but honestly, to me it's all pretty much nonsense. I have not even once, in almost 7 months of playing this instrument daily, ever had even the slightest issue with the pivot length having a negative effect on my playing. (and I do play quite far back on the black keys!) I'll never understand why folks will make such a big deal over something that is so not a big deal. I mean, I'm admittedly pretty picky, but come on now.

I suspect that my opinion might not make me too many friends on here, but while others tirelessly debate (argue?) the pros and cons of "pivot length", I'll just keep myself occupied and content by playing some lovely music on my very nice, affordable digital piano!
Posted By: Pete14 Re: You guys are infectious - 05/19/20 10:46 PM
Count me in for the very first ‘Monster-Pivot’ competition, CG.

I’d like to officially challenge U3piano to a monster battle (once I get my huge D).
There’s no way on earth his puny U3 will hold up to my monster D! grin
Posted By: CyberGene Re: You guys are infectious - 05/19/20 10:53 PM
That’s a pivotal monstrosity! 🐲
Posted By: Pete14 Re: You guys are infectious - 05/19/20 10:59 PM
laugh
Posted By: KevinM Re: You guys are infectious - 05/19/20 11:06 PM
Originally Posted by camperbc
I suppose that my Casio PX-870's keys may possibly have one of the shortest pivot lengths, (I recall someone on here making that statement) but honestly, to me it's all pretty much nonsense. I have not even once, in almost 7 months of playing this instrument daily, ever had even the slightest issue with the pivot length having a negative effect on my playing. (and I do play quite far back on the black keys!) I'll never understand why folks will make such a big deal over something that is so not a big deal. I mean, I'm admittedly pretty picky, but come on now.

I suspect that my opinion might not make me too many friends on here, but while others tirelessly debate (argue?) the pros and cons of "pivot length", I'll just keep myself occupied and content by playing some lovely music on my very nice, affordable digital piano!

Not at all.

My feeling is players with long experience and deep skill like yourself are able to deal with tools that are not the best ones for the job without even noticing.

Whereas weaker players like myself struggle to achieve the sensitivity of touch required to provide the desired dynamics. I could always wait until I have those skills, but I prefer to better enjoy my playing now. So rather than complain about my tools I bought better tools so I can better enjoy my playing now.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: You guys are infectious - 05/19/20 11:37 PM
Originally Posted by camperbc
I have not even once, in almost 7 months of playing this instrument daily, ever had even the slightest issue with the pivot length having a negative effect on my playing. (and I do play quite far back on the black keys!)

Well, it's not the black keys that are usually the problem, it's the white keys that you have to reach between the black keys. If your thumb starts on a black key while playing a large chord, there's not a lot of space for the rest of your fingers to go but deep towards the fallboard, and maintaining consistent dynamics becomes harder when some of your fingers are riding right against a short pivot point while others are farther away.
Posted By: camperbc Re: You guys are infectious - 05/19/20 11:47 PM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by camperbc
I have not even once, in almost 7 months of playing this instrument daily, ever had even the slightest issue with the pivot length having a negative effect on my playing. (and I do play quite far back on the black keys!)

Well, it's not the black keys that are usually the problem, it's the white keys that you have to reach between the black keys. If your thumb starts on a black key while playing a large chord, there's not a lot of space for the rest of your fingers to go but deep towards the fallboard, and maintaining consistent dynamics becomes harder when some of your fingers are riding right against a short pivot point while others are farther away.

Nope, no troubles with the white keys either. Like I said, I don't understand why some people struggle with this.
Posted By: camperbc Re: You guys are infectious - 05/19/20 11:55 PM
Originally Posted by KevinM
Originally Posted by camperbc
I suppose that my Casio PX-870's keys may possibly have one of the shortest pivot lengths, (I recall someone on here making that statement) but honestly, to me it's all pretty much nonsense. I have not even once, in almost 7 months of playing this instrument daily, ever had even the slightest issue with the pivot length having a negative effect on my playing. (and I do play quite far back on the black keys!) I'll never understand why folks will make such a big deal over something that is so not a big deal. I mean, I'm admittedly pretty picky, but come on now.

I suspect that my opinion might not make me too many friends on here, but while others tirelessly debate (argue?) the pros and cons of "pivot length", I'll just keep myself occupied and content by playing some lovely music on my very nice, affordable digital piano!

Not at all.

My feeling is players with long experience and deep skill like yourself are able to deal with tools that are not the best ones for the job without even noticing.

Whereas weaker players like myself struggle to achieve the sensitivity of touch required to provide the desired dynamics. I could always wait until I have those skills, but I prefer to better enjoy my playing now. So rather than complain about my tools I bought better tools so I can better enjoy my playing now.
hmmm... I really don't know for certain, but that could possibly be it, KevinM. It would help explain why someone who is less advanced may have issues with it, while one who is more skilled/experienced doesn't really notice.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: You guys are infectious - 05/20/20 12:09 AM
Originally Posted by camperbc
Nope, no troubles with the white keys either. Like I said, I don't understand why some people struggle with this.

Simply, I think it's because some people are used to something different. If it doesn't bother you, that's all the better, you don't have anything to worry about smile
Posted By: johnstaf Re: You guys are infectious - 05/20/20 04:16 AM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Ugh, I would love to agree with you, but I just checked the official table:

Code
Official PW pivot length table
----------------------------------

Short                                  Medium                                           Long
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NU1X (18cm)
NV5 (??)
     N1X/N3X (23cm)
                                     Steinway Model D (31cm)
                                                                                  NV-10 (26cm)

Hmm, a troubling thought just occurred to me, only you know where the Cybrid lies. The ultimate dark horse candidate!

I think the Steinway figure is based on the assumption that the balance intercepts the key exactly in the middle. This would probably be the case with the shortest key, but Steinway gives a measurement of the longest key, so it's not possible to work out the distance to the pivot point from this figure. Bear in mind that all the keys have the same distance from the front to the balance pin, so the differences are on the far end. Having said all that, I think it's still around 30cm.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop Re: You guys are infectious - 05/20/20 04:29 AM
Originally Posted by CyberGene
As to the second, the best bang-for-buck piano with a rather long pivot is the Yamaha N1X which is cheaper than the NV10 and has some unique features missing in the NV10, hence is better bang-for-buck laugh
+1 thumb grin
Posted By: johnstaf Re: You guys are infectious - 05/20/20 04:30 AM
Originally Posted by KevinM
I don’t think I would like less than 22cm which is the length of the action in a Roland FP-90. That felt acceptable.

I think that 22cm is ok. I don't mind going between my grand and my FP-90, but I don't really like anything noticeably shorter. This was my biggest gripe with my Kawai MP-10, or the VPC-1. I just find shorter keys uncomfortable for some pieces.

When it's long enough I don't really care. I wouldn't consider key length a factor in choosing between and N1X and an NV-10 for example.
Posted By: U3piano Re: You guys are infectious - 05/20/20 05:27 AM
Originally Posted by KevinM
Not at all.

My feeling is players with long experience and deep skill like yourself are able to deal with tools that are not the best ones for the job without even noticing.

Whereas weaker players like myself struggle to achieve the sensitivity of touch required to provide the desired dynamics. I could always wait until I have those skills, but I prefer to better enjoy my playing now. So rather than complain about my tools I bought better tools so I can better enjoy my playing now.

So, would this mean a shorter pivot action is actually a better practice tool, as it requires more sensitivity to control, so it forces you to develop better sensitivity?
Posted By: Oddsox Re: You guys are infectious - 05/20/20 05:39 AM
Just wanted to peep in, not sure I understand all of this, but I definitely understand more about the innards of digital pianos than I did a few days ago. And you guys are fargin funny to read.

One serious question, can I avoid the infection by wearing a mask? grin
Posted By: KevinM Re: You guys are infectious - 05/20/20 05:43 AM
Originally Posted by U3piano
Originally Posted by KevinM
Not at all.

My feeling is players with long experience and deep skill like yourself are able to deal with tools that are not the best ones for the job without even noticing.

Whereas weaker players like myself struggle to achieve the sensitivity of touch required to provide the desired dynamics. I could always wait until I have those skills, but I prefer to better enjoy my playing now. So rather than complain about my tools I bought better tools so I can better enjoy my playing now.

So, would this mean a shorter pivot action is actually a better practice tool, as it requires more sensitivity to control, so it forces you to develop better sensitivity?

That may well be true. But the cost is reduced enjoyment on the journey of learning the piano. Adults take considerably longer to learn fine motor skills than children, so I am happy to take this shortcut to enjoyment.
Posted By: KevinM Re: You guys are infectious - 05/20/20 05:45 AM
Originally Posted by Oddsox
Just wanted to peep in, not sure I understand all of this, but I definitely understand more about the innards of digital pianos than I did a few days ago. And you guys are fargin funny to read.

One serious question, can I avoid the infection by wearing a mask? grin
No, but wearing a mask makes everyone else’s pivot length longer.
Posted By: Oddsox Re: You guys are infectious - 05/20/20 05:55 AM
Originally Posted by KevinM
No, but wearing a mask makes everyone else’s pivot length longer.

LOL Nicely done!
Posted By: Burkey Re: You guys are infectious - 05/20/20 12:49 PM
I'm waiting until they release the new Clavinovas with InfinitePivotTouch™ keys smile

Having keys that pivot is so 18th century... get with the times people!
Posted By: _sem_ Re: You guys are infectious - 05/20/20 02:27 PM
CME Xkey have infinite pivot wink
Posted By: Gombessa Re: You guys are infectious - 05/20/20 03:32 PM
Originally Posted by johnstaf
I think the Steinway figure is based on the assumption that the balance intercepts the key exactly in the middle. This would probably be the case with the shortest key, but Steinway gives a measurement of the longest key, so it's not possible to work out the distance to the pivot point from this figure. Bear in mind that all the keys have the same distance from the front to the balance pin, so the differences are on the far end. Having said all that, I think it's still around 30cm.

Just to be absolutely clear, the "chart" is just something I made up out of thin air, because I knew CG wouldn't be able to resist responding wink

The 31cm number for the Steinway D is "accurate" as far as I know, and of course in reality it would sit with other 9-10ft pianos in the "longest" end of the spectrum. For those who are interested, look at the difference between a "mere" 7ft Steinway B:
[Linked Image]

and a 9ft Steinway D:
[Linked Image]

Typically, the pivot length is uniform along the keybed, but the D pivot length increases dramatically towards the bass. Those keysticks are huge (and at least in this example, the distance from front of key to balance pin ISN'T uniform.

Originally Posted by _sem_
CME Xkey have infinite pivot wink

That's really the key to solving the problem for compact digital pianos. You CAN easily have any pivot length you desire, including "infinite" if you just get away from a simple lever. Casio could make an even shorter keybed than that in the PX-S1000, with a pivot length longer than any piano, but I assume it would increase mechanical complexity and build cost.
Posted By: jeffcat Re: You guys are infectious - 05/20/20 04:05 PM
Pouring over photos of keybeds all of yesterday, It seems indeed user-KevinM is correct about the Artificial dichotomy of Wood+Lengthier keysticks vs Folded Shorter Plasti-keys.

There's absolutely no reason they can't make longer sticks out of plastic. If it's a rigidity issue, just use more plastic, abs injection molding is very stable and straight these days. Even if that's not enough (which i doubt), they can easily slide an aluminum extrusion under the plastic and it'd cost next to nothing. It costs about as much as coat-hanger wires.

Unfortunately the more people pay the luxury tax, the more bold they are with widening the gap between trivial design features.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: You guys are infectious - 05/20/20 04:10 PM
Originally Posted by jeffcat
Pouring over photos of keybeds all of yesterday, It seems indeed user-KevinM is correct about the Artificial dichotomy of Wood+Lengthier keysticks vs Folded Shorter Plasti-keys.

Huh, who said you can't make longer actions out of plastic? The Roland Grand Hybrid action is 26cm, longer than the AvantGrands and the Grand Feels. The Yamaha GrandTouch is right up there, too. Those are definitely in the "long enough to no longer matter" category.
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: You guys are infectious - 05/20/20 04:12 PM
You have experience with manufacturing costs?
Originally Posted by jeffcat
... they can easily slide an aluminum extrusion under the plastic and it'd cost next to nothing.
Posted By: CyberGene Re: You guys are infectious - 05/20/20 04:18 PM
I also think there's no problem whatsoever creating long plastic key sticks. And you can still make them folded which will effectively be just half the length of a regular straight key for the same pivot length. On an acoustic piano you need the action behind the keys because the hammers hit strings. In a digital piano you don't need that. This reminds me DSLR cameras. They followed in the steps of film SLR cameras where you need a mirror in front of the film that will reflect the light towards the viewfinder but needs to be retracted when making the actual picture. A totally unnecessary mechanical complexity. And a digital camera doesn't need that at all because you can directly project on the sensor and look through the electronic display without the need for a mirror. Took them years to realize that. Which is why Canon and Nikon lag behind Sony now. (All of them suffer because of smartphone photography anyway)
Posted By: jeffcat Re: You guys are infectious - 05/20/20 04:32 PM
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
You have experience with manufacturing costs?
Originally Posted by jeffcat
... they can easily slide an aluminum extrusion under the plastic and it'd cost next to nothing.

Yes, I am a cnc machinist. I am the factory.
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: You guys are infectious - 05/20/20 05:11 PM
I wasn't clear. I was thinking about the supply chain economics side of things.
Posted By: VladK Re: You guys are infectious - 05/20/20 05:41 PM
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I also think there's no problem whatsoever creating long plastic key sticks. And you can still make them folded which will effectively be just half the length of a regular straight key for the same pivot length. On an acoustic piano you need the action behind the keys because the hammers hit strings. In a digital piano you don't need that. This reminds me DSLR cameras. They followed in the steps of film SLR cameras where you need a mirror in front of the film that will reflect the light towards the viewfinder but needs to be retracted when making the actual picture. A totally unnecessary mechanical complexity. And a digital camera doesn't need that at all because you can directly project on the sensor and look through the electronic display without the need for a mirror. Took them years to realize that. Which is why Canon and Nikon lag behind Sony now. (All of them suffer because of smartphone photography anyway)

OT, but the mirror was needed because they could not make fast and accurate enough CDAF on CMOS sensor (CMOS could overheat, and its read speed sucked, especially in tracking AF modes), and they already had reliable SLR mirror mechanics to achieve 10+fps. They just had to modify mirror to partially reflect light to PDAF sensor instead of investing heavily into technology used in mostly low end P&S.
Add to this a shorter battery life because of hungry EVF circuit.
This is where SONY, unable to compete in DSLR market, found their chance to disrupt the high end market.
But today Canon DPAF is already up to par with SONY if not better (IMO it is better in many areas).
Nikon mirrorless is still lagging behind, and I can only hope they will achieve a comeback considering their financials and dependency on sensors munufactured by SONY - 2 players is not enough for healthy market. Panasonic becomes a niche player with bleak future IMHO.
But the main issue with mirrorless is lag and relative lack of resolution of electronic viewfinder - this is where many, myself included, still prefer heavier DSLR.
Posted By: CyberGene Re: You guys are infectious - 05/20/20 05:48 PM
^ Makes sense, thanks. I have a Fuji mirrorless that I use to shoot my piano videos and only occasionally for portraits of the kid and its electronic viewfinder is great but for more regular shooting it’s probably not that great.
Posted By: trigalg693 Re: You guys are infectious - 05/20/20 06:01 PM
Plastic actions do not have a stiffness problem. I recall my Roland FP7F with PHA3 action didn't have much of the way in lateral stabilization at the front of the key and it did not have a problem at all. I also have no problem with folded actions, I can't tell the difference between folded and Kawai GF actions.

As far as pivot length goes, 23cm is where my chords and double notes stop getting messed up. If Roland makes a 23 or 24cm stage piano, I'm buying 2 of them.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: You guys are infectious - 05/20/20 06:03 PM
+1 to Vlad's explanation. I had the original Nikon D1, even then we waxed about mirrorless/EVF being the eventual holy grail. It's taken a much longer time to get there than we would have originally expected!
Posted By: johnstaf Re: You guys are infectious - 05/21/20 02:29 AM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Typically, the pivot length is uniform along the keybed, but the D pivot length increases dramatically towards the bass. Those keysticks are huge (and at least in this example, the distance from front of key to balance pin ISN'T uniform.

Sorry yes of course. I mangled the point I was trying to make. The Steinway D action is angled because the strike point is so far into the piano in the bass. Most (but not all) concert grands are like this.

In general the overall key length doesn't tell you anything of substance about the action. Steinway's figure for the longest key is irrelevant, regardless of the action. It's just more irrelevant for a concert grand.... 😁
Posted By: Pete14 Re: You guys are infectious - 05/21/20 10:20 AM
Where are the moderators when you need them? laugh

This madness has to stop! Be content with what you have and stop envying your neighbor’s pivot!
Pivot envy is bad!


P.S.

The bush is always greener and bushier across the fence (is that how the saying goes?) grin
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: You guys are infectious - 05/21/20 10:29 AM
Pete is helping Moses by adding an eleventh commandment:

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors pivot.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: You guys are infectious - 05/21/20 10:42 AM
wink
Posted By: CyberGene Re: You guys are infectious - 05/21/20 12:25 PM
How about faking you have a long pivot? Like purchasing a short-stick Casio PX-S1000 and then covering the rear side in a deep fake (no pun intended) cabinet that would make the impression of hiding a monster-pivot underneath? Isn't there industry for that?
Posted By: U3piano Re: You guys are infectious - 05/21/20 12:57 PM
Well, there is a market for hubcaps..
Originally Posted by CyberGene
How about faking you have a long pivot? Like purchasing a short-stick Casio PX-S1000 and then covering the rear side in a deep fake (no pun intended) cabinet that would make the impression of hiding a monster-pivot underneath? Isn't there industry for that?
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: You guys are infectious - 05/21/20 12:59 PM
I know a newly minted piano builder who might take on such a project. smile
Originally Posted by CyberGene
How about faking you have a long pivot? Like purchasing a short-stick Casio PX-S1000 and then covering the rear side in a deep fake (no pun intended) cabinet that would make the impression of hiding a monster-pivot underneath? Isn't there industry for that?
Posted By: Mickey_ Re: You guys are infectious - 05/21/20 01:07 PM
Originally Posted by Pete14
I kid you not, before I came here I did not care about any of this. I would buy a new piano only if my old one broke beyond repair. NAMM? what the heck is that, I used to think.

Fast forward to today, and no matter how much I like my piano, I have to upgrade every two years (or sooner) because, you know, Gombessa says there’s something new out there with better speakers!

Haha! It's even worse with me: I'm a beginner and haven't even received my NV10 yet, and now I'm sitting here googling VSTs because some people keep writing about those...

However, I'll stick with the on-board sounds. Definitely.

I think.
Posted By: johnstaf Re: You guys are infectious - 05/21/20 01:30 PM
I could glue the keys from one DP onto the end of the other. I figure I'd have pivots that would make any concert grand feel inadequate. I would probably have 2cm key travel though...
Posted By: Pete14 Re: You guys are infectious - 05/21/20 01:48 PM
...and the madness continues!

It seems like we all have a subconscious yearning for something......bigger.
A void -of sorts- that can only be filled by huge pivots!

And guess what, Yamaha is taking notes: ‘The GrandTouch has the longest pivot of any digital piano’, they say!

No, Yamaha didn’t brag about the current Clavinovas’ sound engine, nor the improved speakers, nor the built-in audio interface (those were mentioned incidentally); no, it was all about the huge pivot.

They have us by the pivots, you guys. Yamaha and others have finally figured us out: “they’re obsessed with pivot size, so let’s forget about everything else and give’em longer pivots”.

Don’t you see, guys, we’re being played; and it’s not by a virtuoso like Ms. Wang, but rather by greasy engineers at Yamaha!
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: You guys are infectious - 05/21/20 02:00 PM
There's another way to look at this.

It's not really about getting a digital piano that's better and better and better than an acoustic.
Rather, it's about finding a digital piano that's at least close to "as good as an acoustic".

I haven't found one yet.
Posted By: clothearednincompo Re: You guys are infectious - 05/21/20 02:40 PM
Originally Posted by Pete14
Yamaha and others have finally figured us out: “they’re obsessed with pivot size, so let’s forget about everything else and give’em longer pivots”.

Except Casio.
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: You guys are infectious - 05/21/20 03:14 PM
When it comes to longer levers and pivots ... they should consult with Archimedes.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: jeffcat Re: You guys are infectious - 05/21/20 03:16 PM
Originally Posted by Pete14
They have us by the pivots, you guys. Yamaha and others have finally figured us out: “they’re obsessed with pivot size, so let’s forget about everything else and give’em longer pivots”.

Don’t you see, guys, we’re being played; and it’s not by a virtuoso like Ms. Wang, but rather by greasy engineers at Yamaha!


YES, but we want longer pivots at LOWER Prices. Give us Big-Pivots at the $500-1000 lvl.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: You guys are infectious - 05/21/20 11:14 PM
You guys, I just read about a recent discovery of a parallel universe where time runs backwards, left is right, right is left, etc...

Is it fair to assume that long is short in this parallel universe? if so, could that possibly mean that there might exist a version of us, obsessed, but with short pivots rather than long?
Posted By: Pete14 Re: You guys are infectious - 05/22/20 11:16 AM
So that’s what it took to stop the madness:
Short (pivot) is the new long (in a parallel universe).

End of discussion!



Now it’s on to short vs. long decays: I hear Casios are loopy. grin

Discuss amongst yourselves!
Posted By: clothearednincompo Re: You guys are infectious - 05/22/20 12:25 PM
No, in the parallel inverse universe they actually prefer keys feeling heavier near the fallboard. So, they like them short, in their words "long".

Though if "near/far" is also inverted then they don't. So, they like them our "long".

But if "prefer" is also inverted then they actually do want them our "short" and their "long".

See what you started! 🤪
Posted By: Pete14 Re: You guys are infectious - 05/22/20 12:40 PM
This does get weird for us, but then for “them” this would be normal, right?

Okay, I believe we need our preeminent expert in ‘reverse/inverse language coding’ (CG) to chime in:


He is terrible.....or is it terrific? crazy
Posted By: CyberGene Re: You guys are infectious - 05/22/20 01:25 PM
I’m terrified... Or was it terriblied?
Posted By: Pete14 Re: You guys are infectious - 05/22/20 01:56 PM
You’ve nailed it, CG!

This solves our paradox: we’ll meet them aliens halfway (stay with me), so that short is not long, and long is not short, but rather ‘shlong’; which means both short and long!

Right is not wrong, but rather ‘rong’. (Okay, that one doesn’t work very well, but still it’s better than nothing).

White is not black, but rather ‘whack’..........!
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: You guys are infectious - 05/22/20 02:22 PM
Hey Pete, why not invite CG to meet you at the Canyon Diablo Crater in Arizona.
The aliens frequently show up there.

CG: That's a long flight from Bulgaria. But be assured that there's lots of social distancing at the crater site.
And the aliens don't carry the virus. So it's quite safe.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: You guys are infectious - 05/22/20 02:41 PM
That sounds like a plan, Mac!
Posted By: CyberGene Re: You guys are infectious - 05/22/20 03:39 PM
After watching the Fargo TV-series I wanted to visit Minnesota. But then I read about Minnesota Nice. And it’s not that tempting anymore. So, yeah, Arizona sounds good!
Posted By: major_key_minor Re: You guys are infectious - 05/22/20 10:27 PM
Originally Posted by Mickey_
Originally Posted by Pete14
I kid you not, before I came here I did not care about any of this. I would buy a new piano only if my old one broke beyond repair. NAMM? what the heck is that, I used to think.

Fast forward to today, and no matter how much I like my piano, I have to upgrade every two years (or sooner) because, you know, Gombessa says there’s something new out there with better speakers!

Haha! It's even worse with me: I'm a beginner and haven't even received my NV10 yet, and now I'm sitting here googling VSTs because some people keep writing about those...

However, I'll stick with the on-board sounds. Definitely.

I think.

I am curious, why you are replacing your K300 Aures with an NV10? Surely not because of GAS right smile
Posted By: major_key_minor Re: You guys are infectious - 05/22/20 10:36 PM
Originally Posted by major_key_minor
Originally Posted by Mickey_
Originally Posted by Pete14
I kid you not, before I came here I did not care about any of this. I would buy a new piano only if my old one broke beyond repair. NAMM? what the heck is that, I used to think.

Fast forward to today, and no matter how much I like my piano, I have to upgrade every two years (or sooner) because, you know, Gombessa says there’s something new out there with better speakers!

Haha! It's even worse with me: I'm a beginner and haven't even received my NV10 yet, and now I'm sitting here googling VSTs because some people keep writing about those...

However, I'll stick with the on-board sounds. Definitely.

I think.

I am curious, why you are replacing your K300 Aures with an NV10? Surely not because of GAS right smile

Scratch that. I just read your reason in another thread. Carry on and enjoy your NV10.
Posted By: Mickey_ Re: You guys are infectious - 05/22/20 10:50 PM
Thanks, major_key_minor! GAS may play a role in this whole upgrading game of mine as well. :-)
Posted By: major_key_minor Re: You guys are infectious - 05/22/20 11:20 PM
Originally Posted by Mickey_
Thanks, major_key_minor! GAS may play a role in this whole upgrading game of mine as well. :-)

I know that all too well. I have over $5k in camera equipment (Sony A7II, Sony A7III, SEL5518Z, DJI Mavic Air etc) sitting in my apartment that i rarely use. At the time of purchase, i thought photography was going to be my next big hobby but after a few weeks of intense photography, i mostly now just use them when travelling which is not very often. Smh.

Let me know when someone finds the cure for GAS because i sorely need it smile
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: You guys are infectious - 05/22/20 11:25 PM
There's a very simple cure for G.A.S. It's called poverty. smile
Originally Posted by major_key_minor
Let me know when someone finds the cure for GAS because i sorely need it smile
I don't think you want that cure.
Posted By: major_key_minor Re: You guys are infectious - 05/23/20 12:04 AM
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
There's a very simple cure for G.A.S. It's called poverty. smile
Originally Posted by major_key_minor
Let me know when someone finds the cure for GAS because i sorely need it smile
I don't think you want that cure.

Nooooo... I don't want that cure smile
Posted By: pold Re: You guys are infectious - 05/23/20 01:08 AM
and yet a cheap camcorder is all I need

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qZPBGfQ3hQ
Posted By: RudolfRSK Re: You guys are infectious - 05/23/20 01:30 AM
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
There's a very simple cure for G.A.S. It's called poverty. smile
Originally Posted by major_key_minor
Let me know when someone finds the cure for GAS because i sorely need it smile
I don't think you want that cure.

Indeed. That, coupled with not knowing what you're doing, is how you end up with a Williams Allegro for 5 years. Not that I would know anything about that.

I have, on a wholly unrelated note, made decisions in the past that I regret.
Posted By: joemama42O Re: You guys are infectious - 05/23/20 04:22 AM
Easily the FP-90. That action is awesome.
Posted By: jeffcat Re: You guys are infectious - 05/23/20 05:04 AM
Originally Posted by RudolfRSK
Indeed. That, coupled with not knowing what you're doing, is how you end up with a Williams Allegro for 5 years. Not that I would know anything about that.

Surely playing a Williams Allegro for 5 years would impart some sort of Piano related super power..

It's like working in a coal mine, you get black lung, but builds Muscles ?
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: You guys are infectious - 05/23/20 10:07 AM
Playing a Williams produces a Gyro. smile
Posted By: terminaldegree Re: You guys are infectious - 05/23/20 02:30 PM
It results in a Krakowiak, a big time concerto, unusual fingering prowess, and putting a coin on the back of your hand. And also the belief that all keyboard instruments are exactly the same, therefore to be played with the same technique. Finally, a love for even the most obscure DP brands, forcing you to place your $20k premium upright acoustic piano into storage, never to be used again.
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