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Interesting, I haven't heard this claim before. Anyone who tested/own this can confirm? Also interesting is in his original review, he also spent a lot of time talking about how the short pivot made this especially difficult to play.

He also mentions at 7:45 that there is a horrible "piano forum out there where every discussion devolves into arguments and people insulting each other by the second page. It's almost kind of sad." Is he talking about....us??? Are we really...that...FAMOUS?! Woohoo!
He's right!
About the keys, or about us? smile
I will say that James' is one of the more objective reviews I've seen of this family of keyboards.

For whatever reason, all the other professional reviews, video and written, all seem to be suspect in that they are nearly 100% praise and non-critical. One might suspect that Casio marketing is behind them, although this could be the reality for most reviews.

It would be great to have 3rd party confirmation of the key weight delta on a different sample.
I've never played one, so I couldn't say. But it would be more helpful to do the same test on all comparable makes as a contrast, as well as on an actual quality acoustic piano.
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Are we really...that...FAMOUS?! Woohoo!


🤗
Originally Posted by Gombessa


Interesting, I haven't heard this claim before. Anyone who tested/own this can confirm? Also interesting is in his original review, he also spent a lot of time talking about how the short pivot made this especially difficult to play.

He also mentions at 7:45 that there is a horrible "piano forum out there where every discussion devolves into arguments and people insulting each other by the second page. It's almost kind of sad." Is he talking about....us??? Are we really...that...FAMOUS?! Woohoo!


He’s trolling us! I suppose he never wades into the fray here, he just holds forth from his lofty perch on YouTube. It’s almost kind of sad. I’d rather read through a good argument here than sit through one of his tedious videos. Is going to get a job or is he going to be hectoring us for the rest of his life?

At least on PianoWorld, we have threads about great works of Russian literature, led by a professor of Russian literature, to break up the tedium of always talking about pianos and keyboards, lol.
It's nice to have someone _actually measure something_ -- it makes it much harder to get into religious arguments.

At 0:25, he says that the _black_ keys are much lighter than the _white_ keys. And he proves it. But . . .

There's another problem with this action:

. . . It has a rather short pivot, according to reports.

So, as your finger moves up the key (toward the fallboard), the downweight increases. That's true for both white and black keys.

But, because of the mathematics that govern levers (smart man, Archimedes!):

. . . If the pivot length of the black keys is shorter than the pivot length of the white keys,

. . . . as you move your finger toward the fallboard,

. . . . . the downweight for the black keys increases _faster_ than the downweight of the white keys.

(Note that the downweight, at the pivot, is infinite.)

It is possible (I haven't tested it) that, at "typical finger-contact position", the downweights of the black and white keys are equal.

. . . That may have been a deliberate design decision by Casio.

James hasn't tested that, yet. But I'll put a comment against his video . . .

To put it into IT language, the lighter downweight of the black keys, at their ends, may be a "feature", not a "bug".

I don't know how acoustic pianos behave. I know that the pivots of the black keys are in a different line (further toward the strings, on a grand) than the pivots of the white keys. But I don't know how the downweights vary, as you move your finger up toward the fallboard.
Yes, it’s nice that he measured something, for once, but why didn’t he think to test closer to the fallboard? It probably is a feature and he, and everyone else, is expecting too much from a cheap keyboard. His next video will probably compare it to an expensive acoustic piano.
Amazing.

He made that video because people questioned his assessment of the key weights in the actual review video.

Now people are still asking for third party confirmation and calling him a troll.

Oh, and you are all idiots.

😁

(No, you're not. But got to keep up the image of this (in)famous forum.)

And a healthy dose of skepticism is a good thing. Although I don't see any reason to question the video or the (claimed) fact of different key weights.

Oh, but it's the "Smart” Scaled Hammer Action, so I'm sure Casio will fix it with a firmware update soon...

😉

I have vague (false?) memories of someone somewhere at sometime commenting on different key weights on the whites and blacks. Maybe it was some Fatar action(?)
Originally Posted by LarryK
His next video will probably compare it to an expensive acoustic piano.
Well, that would be OK too, but better would be also to do the same test on a Kawai, a Yamaha and a Roland. Otherwise it doesn't really tell me much of anything, comparatively. I'd still have to compare for myself.
Originally Posted by LarryK
It probably is a feature and he, and everyone else, is expecting too much from a cheap keyboard.
In all honesty, I think *all* DPs are cheap keyboards compared to an actual acoustic. Don't get me wrong, I thoroughly enjoy my DP. But this kind of stuff is really just nibbling at the margins.
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Now people are still asking for third party confirmation

Why would you even get offended by that? What would it hurt to test another sample from the wild? The experiment ought to be repeatable, no?

This is, after all, potentially a major strike against these Casios.
Is he talking about us? Perhaps. But isn't he also talking also about www.anything-at-all-on-the-interwebs.com ?
Originally Posted by Gombessa
He also mentions at 7:45 that there is a horrible "piano forum out there where every discussion devolves into arguments and people insulting each other by the second page. It's almost kind of sad." Is he talking about....us??? Are we really...that...FAMOUS?! Woohoo!

I have to agree with this ...
Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
It's nice to have someone _actually measure something_ -- it makes it much harder to get into religious arguments. At 0:25, he says that the _black_ keys are much lighter than the _white_ keys. And he proves it.
Originally Posted by Gombessa
About the keys, or about us? smile

No way it is us. We start the arguments right from the first page!!


Osho
It you want an argument from the start ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpAvcGcEc0k
James must have changed his mind....

2:04 on this video and he seems quite happy...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUefK3U6KzU&t=177s
Originally Posted by Osho
Originally Posted by Gombessa
About the keys, or about us? smile

No way it is us. We start the arguments right from the first page!!


Osho


I am laughing!!
I'm not offended by asking for 3rd party confirmation, but I have faith in the famous Japanese manufacturing precision and repeatability, so I believe all Smart Scaled Hammer Actions are the same. 😁

And yes he has changed his mind and said that it was difficult to really assess the piano in the noisy NAMM.

And it's an interesting idea that it would be an intentional feature to compensate the short pivot. I guess one doesn't really design or manufacture different key weights by accident. Not at a company like Casio anyway.

Fixing a problem with another problem. Of course compromises need to be done for the world's slimmest hammer action.

And it probably won't bother most of the world's population.
What’s sad is that James dismisses this forum, yet, he might learn something about pianos if he engaged with the knowledgeable people on here, people such as piano technicians, rebuilders, and owners of the pianos which he reviews.

I have never been impressed by the content of his videos, I have learned far more watching videos from Roberts pianos, or from Hugh Sung. James should go off and work in a piano rebuilding shop so that he can learn about what actually makes a piano a piano, or in an electronics repair shop so that he can learn about the design of electronic keyboards.

Of course, people argue on here. Welcome to the real world, James. Discussions in which everybody agrees are not discussions at all, and one learns nothing from them.

My classical guitar teacher told me that the secretaries at the music school where he teaches go home early on the day when the piano department meets. They can’t stand all the arguing. Haha!
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by LarryK
His next video will probably compare it to an expensive acoustic piano.
Well, that would be OK too, but better would be also to do the same test on a Kawai, a Yamaha and a Roland. Otherwise it doesn't really tell me much of anything, comparatively. I'd still have to compare for myself.
Originally Posted by LarryK
It probably is a feature and he, and everyone else, is expecting too much from a cheap keyboard.
In all honesty, I think *all* DPs are cheap keyboards compared to an actual acoustic. Don't get me wrong, I thoroughly enjoy my DP. But this kind of stuff is really just nibbling at the margins.


Yes, I agree, but it is much easier to attack the manufacturer of the cheapest DP than it is to exhaustively test keyboards from a wide range of manufacturers. Plus, you know, attacking Casio is an easy way to get clicks.

There are plenty of people on here who will say that the grand piano actions in their high end DPs are better than the actions on acoustic uprights, and they have a point, but much of it comes down to how much money a person is willing to spend for what level of performance.

A $699 keyboard is kind of a miracle in itself, even if it does have design problems with its action.
But, but, but... top-notch classical pianists play big time concertos and virtuoso repertoire on these new Casios!!! If you can’t play well, then the problem is in you!
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
And yes he has changed his mind and said that it was difficult to really assess the piano in the noisy NAMM.
Yeah, or it could be he didn't want to lose his YT cred by doing something gauche like saying something nice about a Casio. I don't see how noise can affect your judgement of key weight.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
But, but, but... top-notch classical pianists play big time concertos and virtuoso repertoire on these new Casios!!! If you can’t play well, then the problem is in you!
Well they're not really doing so on $10k+ "legit hybrids" either.
Being already in the second page of this thread, I have to disagree with everything you already said or you will say in the next posts.
Originally Posted by LarryK
There are plenty of people on here who will say that the grand piano actions in their high end DPs are better than the actions on acoustic uprights, and they have a point, but much of it comes down to how much money a person is willing to spend for what level of performance.
Well I would refine that to "high end DPs are better than sub-optimal uprights". Musically, I'd take a quality acoustic upright over any DP or hybrid or whatever. DPs are just practical simulations to me. They're quiet and don't weigh as much as a truck, and if they're reasonably close to a real piano in sound and feel, it's good enough. At any rate DP snobbery is always good for a chuckle.
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by LarryK
There are plenty of people on here who will say that the grand piano actions in their high end DPs are better than the actions on acoustic uprights, and they have a point, but much of it comes down to how much money a person is willing to spend for what level of performance.
Well I would refine that to "high end DPs are better than sub-optimal uprights". Musically, I'd take a quality acoustic upright over any DP or hybrid or whatever. DPs are just practical simulations to me. They're quiet and don't weigh as much as a truck, and if they're reasonably close to a real piano in sound and feel, it's good enough. At any rate DP snobbery is always good for a chuckle.


Yes, agreed, I’ll take an acoustic upright piano over a digital, even when the tuning on the acoustic piano has gone pear-shaped, as the Brits say, as it has done again on my rental U1. Oh, well, it will be replaced by a Yamaha DYUS1 soon enough.

I like acoustic instruments and I don’t mind things that change, even for the worse, lol. The acoustic upright is kind of like the plants it shares space with, they’re both changing, and, no, the plants are not on top of the piano. I have a friend who has 50 years at the keyboard, and a degree in music composition, and he can’t understand why I want an acoustic piano. Part of it is because I never got to play on all of the acoustic pianos that he’s played on.

Anyway, I say give Casio a break. Compromises have to be made on a $699 keyboard. I’d have loved to have had that Casio as a kid, I’d have loved to have had any kind of keyboard instrument.
So, any critique should be dismissed as "Casio bashing" because Casios are cheap?

What about Medeli? They are even cheaper.

Should all Medeli critique be dismissed as Medeli bashing because Medelis are cheap and YouTubers don't want to lose their credibility by saying anything nice about Medeli?

Or is it perhaps possible that there's no anti-Casio conspiracy and people actually say what they honestly think?

I'm of course only half serious with this comment but there's this strange phenomenon here that any critique on Casio ends up with dismissal of the critique just because it's critique on Casio as if Casio were somehow sacred or this were an official Casio safe space. 😁

I have a Kawai now (formerly Casio) so maybe I should start systematically dismissing any Kawai critique as Kawai bashing until people tell me to stop or a moderator blocks me. 😄

...or we could all just focus on the actual topics without metadiscussion. But how boring would that be(?)

(Still not offended...)
I never meant that all criticism of Casio should be dismissed because Casio is building cheap keyboards but that the criticism has to be weighed with the price in mind.

People have a tendency to bash everything. It’s not fair to dispense $2k worth of criticism, based on more expensive keyboards with better actions, on a $699 keyboard.
In the past I used a semi-weighted MIDI keyboard with different weight between white and black keys... This difference in weight is incredibly annoying, because it makes your playing much more "jumpy" when you move from a white key to a black key. A trick to fix the issue is to use a different velocity curve for the black keys. I remember I made a script in Reaper to lower the velocity value of the black keys, otherwise it would have been unbearable to play... Maybe those Casio models do the same thing inside their firmware?
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Maybe those Casio models do the same thing inside their firmware?


It sounds like it could be a serviceable workaround, since James said that he didn't notice the issue when he first played the keyboard at NAMM due to not being able to hear the sounds well in the din.

My understanding is this is also how Yamaha "faked" grading on the NWS action of the CP1 and CP5.
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
I have a Kawai now (formerly Casio) so maybe I should start systematically dismissing any Kawai critique as Kawai bashing until people tell me to stop or a moderator blocks me.
Who bashes Kawais? I've played them. They're good digitals, although I'm really not a fan of Kawai acoustic pianos. But I don't have to reflexively point that out every time I see the brand name.
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Who bashes Kawais?


Noboby as fas as I can remember.

They are sometimes critiqued for some specific features.

And people are okay with that.

They don't pretend like it's an anti-Kawai conspiracy and say that YouTubers can't say anything nice about Kawais to not lose credibility.

Which is nice.

If only we could also talk about Casio in a similar neutral way... 😉

(Okay, enough about that topic. I've said it now.)

Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
I don't see how noise can affect your judgement of key weight.


If you don't hear what you play you can't notice the uneven response from white and black keys. I suppose.

Oh, and for the record the black keys on my Kawai ES-100 might be a little lighter than the white ones. At around middle C the blacks start sinking down (not all the way) with a 54 g weight and the whites with a 58 g weight. (Or so. It wasn't a very accurate measurement.)
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
I'm not offended by asking for 3rd party confirmation, but I have faith in the famous Japanese manufacturing precision and repeatability, so I believe all Smart Scaled Hammer Actions are the same. 😁

Well, if you are taking a "faith" stance, then you probably don't have much of a leg bashing the Casio faithful? wink

James directed the conversation to a concerning issue that is measurable (and deserves to be verified), but you are content to swing the conversation back to random Casio bashing... Just a thought.
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Oh, and for the record the black keys on my Kawai ES-100 might be a little lighter than the white ones. At around middle C the blacks start sinking down (not all the way) with a 54 g weight and the whites with a 58 g weight. (Or so. It wasn't a very accurate measurement.)
Well yeah, that's what I was wondering about. If it's a Casio PX-S3000-specific flaw, then so be it. But it would be more useful to do the same test on a wide range of keyboards, digital and acoustic. I've never said or thought that Casios are perfection.
Quote
They don't pretend like it's an anti-Kawai conspiracy and say that YouTubers can't say anything nice about Kawais to not lose credibility.
I wouldn't call it a "conspiracy" as much as "groupthink". The groupthink generally seems to be that if a Kawai has problems, it's a case of "good piano gone bad", whereas with a Casio it's "bad piano, period, beginning with the brand name on the thing". That's the difference.
Of course "conspiracy" was intentional exaggeration. And I haven't paid attention to the "groupthink" as much as to the opposite i.e. complaining that "Everybody always hates Casio just for it being Casio".

It's of course possible that both happen here.

And of course the reason for "the guy in the video" not having done a similar test on other pianos (yet anyway) is that he says he hasn't experienced the problem with any other piano, acoustic or digital.

So there was no need. Before he tested that specific piano. Which happens to have a "Casio" logo on it.

So, it wasn't singled out just because it's a Casio.

(Or that's how I see it anyway.)
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
And I haven't paid attention to the "groupthink" as much as to the opposite i.e. complaining that "Everybody always hates Casio just for it being Casio".
Which doesn't mean that the groupthink isn't out there.
Quote
And of course the reason for "the guy in the video" not having done a similar test on other pianos (yet anyway) is that he says he hasn't experienced the problem with any other piano, acoustic or digital.
The guy apparently has access to loads of pianos and keyboards. If I observed/felt that anomaly, the first thing I would do is a comparison, especially if I was going to make a video documenting this flaw in one model only. Otherwise it's just a way to make YT fanbois and those who listen to them feel relieved that they didn't fall for such junk.
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Of course "conspiracy" was intentional exaggeration. And I haven't paid attention to the "groupthink" as much as to the opposite i.e. complaining that "Everybody always hates Casio just for it being Casio".

It's of course possible that both happen here.

And of course the reason for "the guy in the video" not having done a similar test on other pianos (yet anyway) is that he says he hasn't experienced the problem with any other piano, acoustic or digital.

So there was no need. Before he tested that specific piano. Which happens to have a "Casio" logo on it.

So, it wasn't singled out just because it's a Casio.

(Or that's how I see it anyway.)


Indeed. I have a Roland, which I really like. Many people here detest Roland pianos. I don't take it personally.
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Indeed. I have a Roland, which I really like. Many people here detest Roland pianos. I don't take it personally.
I like Rolands myself. And Kawais and Yamahas. Don't know anything about Korg, Kurzweil or Nord. I'd love to get hold of a Roland C-30 digital harpsichord though. They sound great and look beautiful, like an old clavichord.
I like Rolands too, and am also partial to the odd Yamaha, every so often...

[Linked Image]

Cheers,
James
x
However, I think the guy in that video should have done the same weight test on at least 2 other DPs in the same price range, otherwise you may think he was a little biased.
Originally Posted by Kawai James
I like Rolands too, and am also partial to the odd Yamaha, every so often...

[Linked Image]

Cheers,
James
x


What's in the bag James? I'm guessing four litres of Diamond White, 60 Superking Black, Pot Noodles, scratch cards and a copy of the Daily Star.
Originally Posted by LarryK
I never meant that all criticism of Casio should be dismissed because Casio is building cheap keyboards but that the criticism has to be weighed with the price in mind.

People have a tendency to bash everything. It’s not fair to dispense $2k worth of criticism, based on more expensive keyboards with better actions, on a $699 keyboard.


Yes, but that Casio action compared to a FP-10 or FP-30 action which are even cheaper doesn't seem to fare well.

Carlos
In all fairness to Casio, my DIY grand piano action (from an unknown piano but most probably a baby grand) has similarly higher downweight at black keys compared to the white keys. The balance rail of black keys is of course offset to the white one but apparently there’s some sacrifice. However it doesn’t have any counterweights (although it has whippen assist springs to do similar job). I also measured my N1X and there’s no such discrepancy but then it’s also full with counterweights in every key.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
In all fairness to Casio, my DIY grand piano action (from an unknown piano but most probably a baby grand) has similarly higher downweight at black keys compared to the white keys. The balance rail of black keys is of course offset to the white one but apparently there’s some sacrifice. However it doesn’t have any counterweights (although it has whippen assist springs to do similar job). I also measured my N1X and there’s no such discrepancy but then it’s also full with counterweights in every key.


The title of the thread is wrong, as the black keys in the video are much lighter than the white ones. shocked
Holy cow you're right! I maintain that a mod came along and changed it in order to sow discord and play us against each other.
Good to see everyone diffusing the conversation with lightheartedness smile

I contributed a comment on the Casio forum about this. All the forums seem to have lit up with this topic! James certainly knows how to create waves smile
As we know on here, this is not the first time........

I recently bought a PXS3000 for a road piano and controller, which I left some impressions on the Casio forum. I think it's terrific for its compactness and budget. This topic is a non issue to me. The more I think about it, the more I think it is a deliberate design spec to get such a compact weighted action to play well. And in my opinion, it does play well.
I also currently play a Kronos RH3, Montage Balanced Hammer Action, a Kawai MP11SE among others........and a Kawai Acoustic Grand. The acoustic aside, I enjoy the Casio action second to my MP11SE.

I just think subjective reviews are pointless, given that everyone will view their experience differently. I bought the S3000, because I tried it for myself!


What is interesting to me, is that after viewing James video, I tried to focus on the difference on my own keys. I could just feel the difference when trying it with the keyboard off. When I turned it on and experienced the audio feedback from the sound, I had trouble even detecting it.
It's amazing how the psycho acoustic feedback can trick your brain into something smile
Without clicking on the link (it looks like clickbait), I can say some "different weight of black keys to white keys" is completely a non-issue for me, as I think quite a normal consumer who wants or practice on it. I have not noticed anything about a different weight of those keys.

On the other hand, I can notice the greater stiffness near the fallboard, which while being a total non-issue for me personally, I can see how it could annoy some other people in relation to the white keys. (The black keys are fine with this).

As for the obsessive discussion of things like key weight in this subsection of the forum and how it might be perceived. it's a bit like the story "The Princess and the Pea"?

I think this is a similar dynamic to what happens in political discussion forums, where people of a similar personality all gather together by self-selection, and then it can seem like the most important thing in the world. So if the forum selects for people who are very sensitive to a certain type of "imperfection", then this imperfection can loom larger and larger.
Originally Posted by 3am_stargazing
As for the obsessive discussion of this forum. I wonder if you have read the story "The Princess and the Pea"?

So, are we saying that people who purchase anything more expensive than PX-S1000 are OCD-driven princesses?
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by 3am_stargazing
As for the obsessive discussion of this forum. I wonder if you have read the story "The Princess and the Pea"?

So, are we saying that people who purchase anything more expensive than PX-S1000 are OCD-driven princesses?

Yes, it reads rather like this.

Another explanation is that people are unsatisfied with digital pianos in general (as if they could only sleep on a sofa, and could never have a real bed). So they jump from one to another restlessly, and their brains become more and more attuned to different imperfections of trying to sleep on a sofa.

The result is that you become an expert (or connoisseur) of the feeling of different digital pianos, and are then critical of things which are not up to the standards of the higher priced products. While someone who has not sensitized themselves to these imperfections (like me), can be easily impressed by them.

As for PX-S1000. It does a great job, as a very simple practice instrument, to people who are not particularly sensitive to the imperfections of keyboards in this price range. It's possible that the greater stiffness of the white keys could be annoying - this depends on how the person plays.

It's not a real piano, it's a value for money piece of consumer electronics, which can be used for practicing piano. However, strangely I find this $500 electric keyboard easier to practice on (with headphones), than some of the pianos I find in practice rooms. It's always in tune, all the keys work well, I can practice my kind of repertoire on it fine (without much conscious adjustments), it's reliable, and attractive and compact. And it can trick my brain late at night, with open-back headphones on, so that I feel like I am playing on a piano. So that would be my review.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by 3am_stargazing
As for the obsessive discussion of this forum. I wonder if you have read the story "The Princess and the Pea"?

So, are we saying that people who purchase anything more expensive than PX-S1000 are OCD-driven princesses?


They just have experienced the need for better action as their repertoire expands. If one's repertoire never demands that one plays close to the fall-board, the cheaper actions will do just fine.

Osho
Originally Posted by Osho
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by 3am_stargazing
As for the obsessive discussion of this forum. I wonder if you have read the story "The Princess and the Pea"?

So, are we saying that people who purchase anything more expensive than PX-S1000 are OCD-driven princesses?


They just have experienced the need for better action as their repertoire expands. If one's repertoire never demands that one plays close to the fall-board, the cheaper actions will do just fine.

Osho

Maybe, but I get the feeling sometimes that there must be some people here who play about 70% of the time near the fallboard, since we hear so much about it. Now I a have a PX-870, which I'm told is difficult to play near the fallboard (though it doesn't seem any more difficult than it does on the average upright). But let's assume it is. Is it worth $3k or $4k more to me to be able to play with a little more ease a few millimeters up the key? No. But it may make someone feel better about *their* $4k or $5k DP, which is fine.
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen

Maybe, but I get the feeling sometimes that there must be some people here who play about 70% of the time near the fallboard, since we hear so much about it. Now I a have a PX-870, which I'm told is difficult to play near the fallboard (though it doesn't seem any more difficult than it does on the average upright). But let's assume it is. Is it worth $3k or $4k more to me to be able to play with a little more ease a few millimeters up the key? No. But it may make someone feel better about *their* $4k or $5k DP, which is fine.


I'd like to see the repertoire that requires playing near the fallboard 70% of the time! I don't think I'd like to play it though.

The good news is you don't need to spend $4-5k to get an action that has a longer pivot (and I doubt many would consider that their primary upgrade reason). You can get something in the same price range (or even cheaper) than a PX-870, so there is at least a much larger population of players who get to feel better about their DP smile
I owned a PX-S3000 for over 6 months. Luckily, I sold it quickly and moved on as I had many negative issues besides the action. I wonder why Casio, who had already conquered the light weighted action piano, thought it was necessary to make the thinnest DP? Kind of rhetorical cause I'm sure it was to differentiate from their competition. I'll end with I love my Casio calculator watch.
Originally Posted by 36251
I'll end with I love my Casio calculator watch.
That's another odd thing I've noticed. It's fairly common to see Casio berated as just a consumer electronics company. So on what basis are we supposed to assume that Yamaha and Kawai are going to produce good electronics?
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by Osho
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by 3am_stargazing
As for the obsessive discussion of this forum. I wonder if you have read the story "The Princess and the Pea"?

So, are we saying that people who purchase anything more expensive than PX-S1000 are OCD-driven princesses?


They just have experienced the need for better action as their repertoire expands. If one's repertoire never demands that one plays close to the fall-board, the cheaper actions will do just fine.

Osho

Maybe, but I get the feeling sometimes that there must be some people here who play about 70% of the time near the fallboard, since we hear so much about it. Now I a have a PX-870, which I'm told is difficult to play near the fallboard (though it doesn't seem any more difficult than it does on the average upright). But let's


No one plays 70% of the time near the fallboard. It is just that when you have to and the piano doesn't respond to your intentions (especially p or pp near the fallboard), it is frustrating. How frustrating it is and how valuable spending extra money to get rid of this is really dependent on each individual.

Osho
Originally Posted by Osho
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by 3am_stargazing
As for the obsessive discussion of this forum. I wonder if you have read the story "The Princess and the Pea"?

So, are we saying that people who purchase anything more expensive than PX-S1000 are OCD-driven princesses?


They just have experienced the need for better action as their repertoire expands. If one's repertoire never demands that one plays close to the fall-board, the cheaper actions will do just fine.

Osho

I have a PX‑S1000 and use it to practice mostly "advanced repertoire" (pieces categorized grades 6-8 above), at night on headphones.I play on acoustic pianos in the day.

The stiffer (slower feeling) white keys near the fallboard can either be annoying, or not annoying, depending on the pianist and what they are sensitive to. It's not related to repertoire.

For me, and the way I use this keyboard to practice, it only is noticeable if I tune into it specifically. I.e. my playing adjusts without noticing it.

With more advanced repertoire, your hands are often moving more automatically, with more momentum, and more based on muscle memory, so the action can become less noticeable to you.

On the other hand, there might be people whose technique or preferences, make them more sensitive about the keys becoming stiffer than I am, and who should look at other options for that reason.

In addition, if I try improvising on this keyboard, then I notice the stiffness of the keys near the fallboard (which could be annoying). When you are improvising, you are making unplanned changes of direction more often, and that's when you notice the stiffness of the keys near the fallboard much more. Similarly if you are sightreading.

I haven't found any other problems with PX‑S1000, except that it sounds bad if you don't use headphones (but I only use it to practice at night with headphones), and there isn't a digital display so inputting the metronome numbers can be a fiddle.

-------------------------


Negatives of PX‑S1000 can be summarized simply:
1. It has stiff (slower feeling) keys near the fallboard. Which could annoy some pianists, depending on their preferences.
2. You need to play it on headphones.
3. You cannot input metronome numbers without it being a bit fiddly.
4. The keybed bottoms out harder than on an acoustic, so if you have to adjust as if you play for hours you could tendonitis. (But this is common in other digital pianos as well).

Possibly 5:
5. You need to adjust the touch setting every time you turn it on (it resets itself).

And positives of the PX‑S1000
1. Sound is really good on headphones.
2. Keys are fine for practicing, as they are touch sensitive, and have a similar weight to a real piano (I imagine for most piano students, including myself - you could put these in practice rooms if you wanted to save money, and the students would be fine with it).
3. Very good value for money, looks very attractive, compact, you can pack it in the car (so students can take it to college accommodation with them). Doesn't have to be tuned. Reliable. Good build quality. Etc.

I'm not even sure the negatives make much sense, when this is a $500 keyboard. (I just bought a pair of headphones which cost $400, and my budget studio monitors cost $400).

My review of this as an owner is 5 stars out of 5, and I was shocked at how good it is for $500 (for perspective, the Nintendo Switch release price was $300).

Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by Osho
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by 3am_stargazing
As for the obsessive discussion of this forum. I wonder if you have read the story "The Princess and the Pea"?

So, are we saying that people who purchase anything more expensive than PX-S1000 are OCD-driven princesses?


They just have experienced the need for better action as their repertoire expands. If one's repertoire never demands that one plays close to the fall-board, the cheaper actions will do just fine.

Osho

Maybe, but I get the feeling sometimes that there must be some people here who play about 70% of the time near the fallboard, since we hear so much about it. Now I a have a PX-870, which I'm told is difficult to play near the fallboard (though it doesn't seem any more difficult than it does on the average upright). But let's assume it is. Is it worth $3k or $4k more to me to be able to play with a little more ease a few millimeters up the key? No. But it may make someone feel better about *their* $4k or $5k DP, which is fine.

It's funny, because I'm often annoyed when a piano I want to practice on is out of tune, or if some keys don't work, or if the sound is very muffled, or too loud. But things like stiffness of keys increasing near the fallboard isn't something I am very sensitive to.

That said, different people are sensitive to different things, and have different pet peeves. Me and you might just be insensitive to this issue, which affects other pianists much more. I don't understand those other pianists assuming this is something that all pianists are sensitive to (unless they have conducted a survey) though.
Originally Posted by LarryK
Originally Posted by Gombessa


Interesting, I haven't heard this claim before. Anyone who tested/own this can confirm? Also interesting is in his original review, he also spent a lot of time talking about how the short pivot made this especially difficult to play.

He also mentions at 7:45 that there is a horrible "piano forum out there where every discussion devolves into arguments and people insulting each other by the second page. It's almost kind of sad." Is he talking about....us??? Are we really...that...FAMOUS?! Woohoo!


He’s trolling us! I suppose he never wades into the fray here, he just holds forth from his lofty perch on YouTube. It’s almost kind of sad. I’d rather read through a good argument here than sit through one of his tedious videos. Is going to get a job or is he going to be hectoring us for the rest of his life?

At least on PianoWorld, we have threads about great works of Russian literature, led by a professor of Russian literature, to break up the tedium of always talking about pianos and keyboards, lol.


+1

He's starting to sound like a conceited little brat.
Originally Posted by DiarmuidD
Originally Posted by LarryK
Originally Posted by Gombessa


Interesting, I haven't heard this claim before. Anyone who tested/own this can confirm? Also interesting is in his original review, he also spent a lot of time talking about how the short pivot made this especially difficult to play.

He also mentions at 7:45 that there is a horrible "piano forum out there where every discussion devolves into arguments and people insulting each other by the second page. It's almost kind of sad." Is he talking about....us??? Are we really...that...FAMOUS?! Woohoo!


He’s trolling us! I suppose he never wades into the fray here, he just holds forth from his lofty perch on YouTube. It’s almost kind of sad. I’d rather read through a good argument here than sit through one of his tedious videos. Is going to get a job or is he going to be hectoring us for the rest of his life?

At least on PianoWorld, we have threads about great works of Russian literature, led by a professor of Russian literature, to break up the tedium of always talking about pianos and keyboards, lol.


+1

He's starting to sound like a conceited little brat.


I agree that he is getting very close to crossing that line.
It may be an ad hominem thing but I did not like the first video of his I watched (actually, I stopped watching pretty quickly), AFAIR a comparison between two brands (RD2000 and Nord, I think). To me he just did not seemed professional (and he seemed overrate himself) so I did not waste time watching his other videos.
Originally Posted by 3am_stargazing

I'm not even sure the negatives make much sense, when this is a $500 keyboard. (I just bought a pair of headphones which cost $400, and my budget studio monitors cost $400).


I'm sure it works both for practice and for gigs, seen good pianists use it without complaining. But I think both the key action and the speaker sound are worst in the 500-bucks class. It stands out by being slim, but I think this is too much of a design compromise.
Originally Posted by _sem_

I'm sure it works both for practice and for gigs, seen good pianists use it without complaining. But I think both the key action and the speaker sound are worst in the 500-bucks class. It stands out by being slim, but I think this is too much of a design compromise.


I think this is a good characterization. Regardless of cost/segment, DP makers make compromises for their target market. For traditional piano players, more will care about the realism of the action, to whcih things like consistent key weight, feel, and ability to play across the entire length of the key, are more important. For DPs catering to other segments (such as gigging, etc.) compromises in action are more expected, especially if they are offset by things such as low weight, small size, battery operation, MIDI ports, easy access to set lists/registrations, etc. There's nothing that says that someone in one segment can't cross over and like a DP catering to the other, but the compromises in the design decisions do exist, and it's a personal question for each pianist whether any of the compromises is material to them.
Originally Posted by DiarmuidD

He's starting to sound like a conceited little brat.


Honestly, 50 year old me looking back on 19 year old me, I was, well, kind of an arrogant a**hole, and I don't think I would have liked myself very much if we were to meet today smile There's a bravado that's unique to young men I think. Maybe I have a too much forgiveness towards it, but I suspect he'll reflect on this differently in 10 years or so.
Originally Posted by Chrispy
Originally Posted by DiarmuidD

He's starting to sound like a conceited little brat.


Honestly, 50 year old me looking back on 19 year old me, I was, well, kind of an arrogant a**hole, and I don't think I would have liked myself very much if we were to meet today smile There's a bravado that's unique to young men I think. Maybe I have a too much forgiveness towards it, but I suspect he'll reflect on this differently in 10 years or so.


That's very mature and forgiving. 19 year old me was the opposite. Racked with self doubt and lacking in confidence. It's probably why I dislike his false confidence now. But I also dislike the extent to which he's been spoilt and doesn't really understand it.
Originally Posted by 3am_stargazing
It's funny, because I'm often annoyed when a piano I want to practice on is out of tune, or if some keys don't work, or if the sound is very muffled, or too loud. But things like stiffness of keys increasing near the fallboard isn't something I am very sensitive to.
In cello terms, it reminds me of the playability of the C string as you go up the fingerboard toward the bridge. On pricier cellos it's usually quite playable and pleasant-sounding (as it fortunately is also on my not-quite-so-pricey-but-still-beloved cello; I guess I lucked out). On some cellos though, playing that string in that region of the fingerboard can produce a croaky, smothered sound. Of course string and bow types are factors as well. But everybody wants a fingerboard to be "balanced" all over.

In practical terms however it's not that big a deal really since most people rarely play that part of the C string. But darn it, those Strads and Montagnanas can be played all the way up the string!
Originally Posted by _sem_
Originally Posted by 3am_stargazing

I'm not even sure the negatives make much sense, when this is a $500 keyboard. (I just bought a pair of headphones which cost $400, and my budget studio monitors cost $400).


I'm sure it works both for practice and for gigs, seen good pianists use it without complaining. But I think both the key action and the speaker sound are worst in the 500-bucks class. It stands out by being slim, but I think this is too much of a design compromise.

The sound (on headphones only, not on the speakers!), especially in the lower octaves, is also quite excellent - a lot better than I would expect for its very cheap price.

Aside from using it for routine late night headphone practice, I also sometimes improvise on it (with the headphones on), as if it was a real acoustic piano. I can get some really beautiful sounds out of it.

The technology is very impressive to me for this small price (I mean, I spend almost as much for a pair of headphones). When I read the complaints on here, I wonder if people are even talking about the same product. Or if they must have some bizarrely inflated expectations. This is hardly more expensive than a Nintendo Switch, and yet it can trick your brain into thinking you're playing a piano when you use with headphones.
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by 3am_stargazing
It's funny, because I'm often annoyed when a piano I want to practice on is out of tune, or if some keys don't work, or if the sound is very muffled, or too loud. But things like stiffness of keys increasing near the fallboard isn't something I am very sensitive to.
In cello terms, it reminds me of the playability of the C string as you go up the fingerboard toward the bridge. On pricier cellos it's usually quite playable and pleasant-sounding (as it fortunately is also on my not-quite-so-pricey-but-still-beloved cello; I guess I lucked out). On some cellos though, playing that string in that region of the fingerboard can produce a croaky, smothered sound. Of course string and bow types are factors as well. But everybody wants a fingerboard to be "balanced" all over.

In practical terms however it's not that big a deal really since most people rarely play that part of the C string. But darn it, those Strads and Montagnanas can be played all the way up the string!

Although with these keyboards that are stiffer (slower feeling) near the fallboard, they are still easy to play at the top of the keys, without a terrible loss of dynamic control even. Just your brain unconsciously adjusts to that and you unconsciously increase the power when playing there.

Also you consciously notice much more that the keys are stiffer at the top, if you are improvising, sight-reading, etc - i.e. when you make unexpected/unplanned changes of directions. When it's a passage which is already memorized in your hands, you might not notice it.

I do understand that a lot of people can find such keyboards (with stiffer keys near the top) annoying though, and that it is a good idea for those people to pay extra to avoid them. But that's going without saying when you try it - if a product has a feature you don't like, then just don't buy it.
Originally Posted by 3am_stargazing
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by 3am_stargazing
It's funny, because I'm often annoyed when a piano I want to practice on is out of tune, or if some keys don't work, or if the sound is very muffled, or too loud. But things like stiffness of keys increasing near the fallboard isn't something I am very sensitive to.
In cello terms, it reminds me of the playability of the C string as you go up the fingerboard toward the bridge. On pricier cellos it's usually quite playable and pleasant-sounding (as it fortunately is also on my not-quite-so-pricey-but-still-beloved cello; I guess I lucked out). On some cellos though, playing that string in that region of the fingerboard can produce a croaky, smothered sound. Of course string and bow types are factors as well. But everybody wants a fingerboard to be "balanced" all over.

In practical terms however it's not that big a deal really since most people rarely play that part of the C string. But darn it, those Strads and Montagnanas can be played all the way up the string!

Although with these keyboards that are stiffer (slower feeling) near the fallboard, they are still easy to play at the top of the keys, without a terrible loss of dynamic control even. Just your brain unconsciously adjusts to that and you unconsciously increase the power when playing there.

Ok I just checked - you do also need to have the keyboard setting changed to the light touch setting, to play the top of the keys with an acceptable range of dynamic control. (I always set it to the lightest touch setting anyway when I turn it on - on the lightest touch setting it behaves more like an acoustic piano).

Also at the top of the white keys, you can't play ff and fff without lifting the fingers impractically (for fast passages) far away from the keyboard. At the top of the keys, I can play from ppp to f. (So the fff and ff dynamic range is limited by the stiffness of the keys at the top end).

So if you particularly like playing fff at the top of the white keys, it is rather difficult to do with this keyboard. (Even with the light touch setting enabled, as it should be).
As a gigging pro pianist I didn't notice the action problem at first, but I couldn't take it after an hour or so. That extra weight towards the back of the keys was stressful! For less money I got a less stressful action and a better piano tone. I can't accept an instrument that makes it harder than normal to play.
Originally Posted by DiarmuidD

That's very mature and forgiving. 19 year old me was the opposite. Racked with self doubt and lacking in confidence. It's probably why I dislike his false confidence now. But I also dislike the extent to which he's been spoilt and doesn't really understand it.

The problem really lies in how much weight his opinions are given, as if he's an expert of some sort. I don't actually see it, although he can play the first p/f pair from WTC I pretty well. grin There are no doubt people on this forum with far more experience than he has; they just don't have 40k YT subs. That's a problem with social media in general: sometimes the users aren't quite worthy of the megaphones they build up. Sometimes it can be toxic, though not really in this case.
Originally Posted by rintincop
As a gigging pro pianist I didn't notice the action problem at first, but I couldn't take it after an hour or so. That extra weight towards the back of the keys was stressful! For less money I got a less stressful action and a better piano tone. I can't accept an instrument that makes it harder than normal to play.
There's no arguing with that. People should find, buy and play the instrument they find the most suitable and enjoyable.
Well, what did he expect. It IS a CASIO after all. They probably have misspellings one their website as well.
Originally Posted by rintincop
As a gigging pro pianist I didn't notice the action problem at first, but I couldn't take it after an hour or so. That extra weight towards the back of the keys was stressful! For less money I got a less stressful action and a better piano tone. I can't accept an instrument that makes it harder than normal to play.


For our information:

. . . Which DP was that ?

Thanks -
Charles,
I had a PX 360 , which had a decent action but a harsh tone. I bought a PX s3000 which had a smoother tone but tiresome action, too heavy at the back half of the keys. I found the Kawai es110 to have a much more comfortable action and a warmer tone. Of course it has less sounds other features, which I never need.
Originally Posted by rintincop
Charles,
I had a PX 360 , which had a decent action but a harsh tone. I bought a PX s3000 which had a smoother tone but tiresome action, too heavy at the back half of the keys. I found the Kawai es110 to have a much more comfortable action and a warmer tone. Of course it has less sounds other features, which I never need.

So it would appear that Casio "improved" the action in the Privia line by making it worse. That's perfectly believable. I've never tried the S3000.
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by rintincop
Charles,
I had a PX 360 , which had a decent action but a harsh tone. I bought a PX s3000 which had a smoother tone but tiresome action, too heavy at the back half of the keys. I found the Kawai es110 to have a much more comfortable action and a warmer tone. Of course it has less sounds other features, which I never need.

So it would appear that Casio "improved" the action in the Privia line by making it worse. That's perfectly believable.


I hate to say it, but that's how I felt after trying a PXS, and I was actually pretty happy with the previous Tri Sensor II action in my old PX-160. Disappointing.
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by rintincop
Charles,
I had a PX 360 , which had a decent action but a harsh tone. I bought a PX s3000 which had a smoother tone but tiresome action, too heavy at the back half of the keys. I found the Kawai es110 to have a much more comfortable action and a warmer tone. Of course it has less sounds other features, which I never need.

So it would appear that Casio "improved" the action in the Privia line by making it worse. That's perfectly believable. I've never tried the S3000.

I wouldn't believe anyone else's opinion here, without trying for yourself. Opinions shared on this forum are more like village gossip, than objective or scientific information.

For example, I've recently read people on this Digital Pianos subsection of the forum claiming that they love the Sennheiser HD598 headphones, but then hate the Sennheiser HD599, which was described as having terrible bloated bass and being unusable in comparison to the "excellent" HD598s.

After some research, I discovered that the Sennheiser HD598 and Sennheiser HD599 are technically identical, with Sennheiser saying that the only change between the two products is the colour and styling on the headband.

So if you just followed some opinions on the Digital Pianos subsection of Pianoworld, you might imagine changing the colour and styling of a headband, can totally change the sound of identical headphone drivers.

It is not quite like those audiophile forums which claim that using different speaker cables somehow transform their sound system (with more expensive cables, invariably sounding better). But there is some of the same absence of blind testing, confirmation bias, and susceptibility to herd thinking on various topics.
Originally Posted by 3am_stargazing

I wouldn't believe anyone else's opinion here, without trying for yourself. Opinions shared on this forum are more like village gossip, than objective or scientific information.
I know such opinions are subjective and of course I'd have to try it myself. Now there's a small minority anywhere who reflexively bash Casio -- or other brands for that matter. They're usually pretty easy to spot. But there are others who like this action in an older model and then end up not being too thrilled with some "new and improved" version. It happens quite frequently with lots of products and the feedback is interesting.
Good to see a test like that, but it seems like nitpicking, and rapidly acuse a brand for making a flawed product, you can see that as a video to get views, he should had reflected on why could it be like that (like people did here), and not jump to conclusions. The black keys being lighter is a fact, but its difficult to think a brand like Casio with years of experience would produce a flawed product. Still i dont know if the action in that DP is brand new, an existing one or a variation (like the kawai compact actions for example).
I think that the real question here is if in the same price range of the PX-S1000 there are DPs with better keyboard action. If the answer is yes, then why I should buy a PX-S1000, considering that its weight and size are not much smaller from those of the main competitors?
Well, an answer could be that the Casio timbral dynamic range of its main piano sound appears to be wider than that of a P125, as the guy in this video says:



But, then we have a wide dynamic range on an ES110 too... So, why I should choose the Casio DP?
Originally Posted by magicpiano
So, why I should choose the Casio DP?


It's slim, lightweight and comes (optionally) with a portable triple pedal whereas the Yamaha and Kawai only offer a triple pedal that's supposed to be attached to their "furniture stand".

(Of course you can attach the Yamaha or Kawai pedal box to a plank of wood and have a portable triple pedal, but that's very unofficial DIY then...)

Then again, if it's only to be used at home I don't know why would you. Maybe if you like their Steinway sound? Or maybe you are put off by Kawai's UI where you press combinations of buttons that are only documented in the User's Manual or on a separate cheat sheet.
Originally Posted by GNkyrios
...you can see that as a video to get views...


It was a response to the reactions of his earlier review video of the said Casio. It wouldn't have been made if people hadn't attacked him for daring to suggest that there's something wrong with a Casio.

Originally Posted by GNkyrios
...he should had reflected on why could it be like that (like people did here)...


It would have been pure speculation and it wouldn't have changed the facts.

Originally Posted by GNkyrios
...and not jump to conclusions.


He didn't "jump into conclusions". First he played the piano and then he measured the key weights. What more can be expected?

Originally Posted by GNkyrios
...its difficult to think a brand like Casio with years of experience would produce a flawed product.


Yes, there must be a reason for such design. Sounds like an intentional compromise. (Which works fine for many people, apparently.)

Originally Posted by GNkyrios
Still i dont know if the action in that DP is brand new, an existing one or a variation (like the kawai compact actions for example).


It's a brand new action that first (and so far only) appeared in the PX-S and CDP-S models.

I wonder what's the future of the other Privias and Celvianos. We'll see...
My own view here is that Casio has clearly made a conscious decision based on prioritization of features they consider as important. Namely, for Casio, it was very important that these DPs are as small/compact as possible, light as possible, operate on batteries, etc., while still offering a graded hammer action. In short, they're more focused on gigging musicians rather than beginning home piano learners (they have console format DPs for this). Kawai has made a similar move with the ES-110 (decreasing weight with a compact action, including DIN-5 MIDI ports, etc.) so it seems the "semi-pro gigging" market is worth it for some manufacturers to pursue.

Of course, with this comes trade-offs. It was endlessly debated when the PX-S1000/S3000 were first announced whether Casio's new compact action would be hard to play at the fallboard, given its short pivot. That was a conscious decision that allowed Casio to make these DPs lighter and more shallower; they either figured most people wouldn't mind, or accepted that it was more worth their effort to increase their target market size at the expense of those who would forego these models because of it. I don't know if the "lighter black keys" was a clear design decision, but my guess is it was, it seems unlikely to be something that was overlooked. Perhaps they felt lighter black keys would make it easy to reach between them to play white keys near the fallboard, which is where the action compromise is most noticeable.
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo


He didn't "jump into conclusions". First he played the piano and then he measured the key weights. What more can be expected?



I dont know, saying the action is flawed because of different weight is jumping to conclusions to me(i mean its in the title of the video), more if he doesnt have a reasoning on why it is like that. As you said, he could just show his discovery and speculate why and if he thinks that makes the action flawed, the video title is kind of controversial.

But well, i watched some of the original video (before this post) but i didnt read the comments to see if people mentioned this "flaw" to him so he makes this video.
Originally Posted by GNkyrios
I dont know, saying the action is flawed because of different weight is jumping to conclusions to me


For him an action is flawed, if the white and black keys have a different weight.

In that Casio they have a different weight.

So, for him the action is flawed.

Why do we even spend so much time on "shooting the messenger" i.e. James the YouTube guy? He's just talking about an objective measurable fact.

He also said that he has removed some argumentative comments from the original review video, so they are not all there anymore.

I think we can "keep calm and carry on". Casio will keep selling PX-S pianos and (some) people will keep being happy with them.

And most people won't ever even hear about James the YouTube guy's video. 😄
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Originally Posted by magicpiano
So, why I should choose the Casio DP?


It's slim, lightweight
To me, in that price range, they are all almost the same as dimensions and weight:

ES110:
Dimensions (W x D x H): 1312 x 286 x 145 mm
Weight: 12 kg

P125:
Dimensions (W x D x H): 1326 x 295 x 166 mm
Weight: 11.8 kg

PX-S1000:
Dimensions (W x D x H): 1322 x 232 x 102 mm
Weight: 11.2 kg

The PX-S1000 is a little smaller and lighter, but not so much.

Quote
and comes (optionally) with a portable triple pedal whereas the Yamaha and Kawai only offer a triple pedal that's supposed to be attached to their "furniture stand".[...]
IMHO most people that buy a $500-600 digital piano are fine with the on/off sustain pedal you find in the original box.
Quote


[...]Or maybe you are put off by Kawai's UI where you press combinations of buttons that are only documented in the User's Manual or on a separate cheat sheet.
In that video I posted before, the reviewer says (at about 9:32) that the Casio Privia UI is one of his only complains he have about that DP, because it uses too much shortcut commands difficult to remember so you always need to have the User Manual at hand...
Oh, the PX-S1000 UI is flawed too. 😄 (The 3000 has a display with a menu system.)

I was thinking of older Privias where they at least had printed the actions of each key on the "fallboard" and didn't even remember how's the PX-S1000 UI.

And I tried to come up with some positives about the Casio.
Originally Posted by navindra
I will say that James' is one of the more objective reviews I've seen of this family of keyboards.

For whatever reason, all the other professional reviews, video and written, all seem to be suspect in that they are nearly 100% praise and non-critical. One might suspect that Casio marketing is behind them, although this could be the reality for most reviews.


He is a reviewer who demonstrates the ability to play actual piano repertoire. Something missing from most adverts disguised as reviews. This is how he noticed the action quirks very quickly.
Originally Posted by clothesearednincompo
For him an action is flawed, if the white and black keys have a different weight.

In that Casio they have a different weight.

So, for him the action is flawed.

Why do we even spend so much time on "shooting the messenger" i.e. James the YouTube guy? He's just talking about an objective measurable fact.

For the flawed testing. A "flaw" implies that this is worse than that. He didn't do the same test on any other keyboard, from what I can tell. An "objective measurable fact" could also be something like "the black keys on this Kawai look unusally dark" and compare it to a hardware store paint sample. It wouldn't tell me anything.
Originally Posted by magicpiano
In that video I posted before, the reviewer says (at about 9:32) that the Casio Privia UI is one of his only complains he have about that DP, because it uses too much shortcut commands difficult to remember so you always need to have the User Manual at hand...
That's true, and it can be a pain.
Some of you guys are much too hard on this kid. He is not a troll, nor is he a spoiled brat.

Even though he is only 19 years old, James Pavel Shawcross has been a serious piano student since early childhood, with lots of emphasis on the classical repertoire. He is certainly capable of giving an honest appraisal of the strengths and weaknesses of acoustic and digital pianos. I guess you could say he calls 'em as he sees 'em.

By the way, I am NOT related to this kid, nor do I have any business relationships with him. (LOL.) I've never even met him. I just enjoy his YouTube videos. I find them informative and entertaining, even if I do not always agree with his conclusions.
Originally Posted by Almaviva
He is certainly capable of giving an honest appraisal of the strengths and weaknesses of acoustic and digital pianos. I guess you could say he calls 'em as he sees 'em.
Which is also the prerogative of his viewers.
^ Here's a problem with it, by the way. Someone left a comment on that Casio video that says,
Quote
I won’t even think about purchasing a new piano or keyboard unless it gets your stamp of approval. Good looking out.

I honestly don't know how some people can squeeze any playing time in between sessions with the tape measures, calipers and weights.
So here is the next video where he compares with other pianos in the price range. Interesting.

https://youtu.be/ChMHi2auG_c
A new video? With a Casio in it?

Time to bring out the torches and pitchforks!

(That remains to be seen...)

One funny thing in the video was Yamaha's "progressive escapement simulation" (not his words). Looks like he just plays the pianos to assess the feel and doesn't dive into action diagrams or photos etc. or he probably would have mentioned the "unhinged" (pun intended) design of the GHS which is based on bending the plastic.

And the title is misleading until you get to the very end of it that says "under $800".
Actually the interesting thing is there's not just a casio in this last video.

I think it's a good video, as some people said before it's the only one that actually measures something, and now there's comparisons too. He probably doesn't know how actions work inside, but to measure the down-weight that's not really needed.

I think he has a point on the Casio's problem he mentions.
I actually think the new video is pretty good, also. I think James' earlier video came off as him being a bit arrogant, perhaps because a 19 year old talking a strong stance and reaching a conclusion that some will find controversial, all while speaking to mostly adults viewing his channel, will assuredly rub some people the wrong way. It seems to me he has taken some of the stridency off his style in the recent video, while sticking to his earlier conclusion, which shows maturity in my opinion.

I have a PX-S3000, and I don't feel the issue is as important as he does, where he essentially dismisses the S-3000 from consideration. As essentially an adult beginning again with piano, my technique is poor and the nuance of downweight difference from playing the black keys too quickly or without enough dynamic subtlety as they are lighter than the white keys is the least of my problems. The PX-S series offers great value and I still have recommended it to friends.

For those of you that are more advanced players, where do your fingertips fall most often while playing the black keys? I think the shorter pivot point of the PX-S series is a much more noticeable issue than the lighter downweight of the black keys. Toward the fall board the white keys are noticeably hard to play, and I would gladly have the S3000 be an inch or two deeper to get a longer pivot point on all the keys.

I assume Casio was aware of the issue James has pointed about, but perhaps wonder if they didn't consider most people to play the black keys more toward the middle of their length? I wonder at what distance moving back along their length the downweight of the black keys might match the downweight of the white keys.

FYI, in looking at his channel yesterday, I found some interesting (and lengthy) videos comparing the CP88, MP11SE, RD-2000, Stage 3 that offered information I hadn't really seen before. I think his channel will become more popular down the road.
Originally Posted by Tom Fort
I assume Casio was aware of the issue James has pointed about, but perhaps wonder if they didn't consider most people to play the black keys more toward the middle of their length? I wonder at what distance moving back along their length the downweight of the black keys might match the downweight of the white keys.

Is it really the case that "most people play black keys towards the middle?" In my case that's hardly true; where on the key my finger rests generally depends on which finger is doing the playing (my thumb rarely ever plays a key in the middle) and what my other fingers need to do, and this applies to both white and black keys.
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Is it really the case that "most people play black keys towards the middle?" In my case that's hardly true; where on the key my finger rests generally depends on which finger is doing the playing (my thumb rarely ever plays a key in the middle) and what my other fingers need to do, and this applies to both white and black keys.

I don't know the answer, that's why I asked the question in the previous paragraph. Where on the black keys (and white keys, why not?) do you most frequently play?
It depends on the situation and which finger we're talking about, honestly. I think most people play the black keys fairly close to the end, when possible. However, most people don't play all the way out on the end of the white keys, except for special circumstances (large stretches, for example). When I'm trying to smooth out certain technical passages (take octave runs as one scenario), I often teach my students not to move in and out so much with their arms, but rather to "straighten out" the passage in a more linear fashion across the keys.

In the case of the Casio, I think overarching design priorities included minimum size (including depth) and lightest possible weight in a weighted, scaled hammer action. Something's got to give at just 25 pounds and only 9 inches deep...
I find very funny that some people take it almost like a personal attack. grin

Originally Posted by Almaviva
Some of you guys are much too hard on this kid. He is not a troll, nor is he a spoiled brat.

Even though he is only 19 years old, James Pavel Shawcross has been a serious piano student since early childhood, with lots of emphasis on the classical repertoire. He is certainly capable of giving an honest appraisal of the strengths and weaknesses of acoustic and digital pianos. I guess you could say he calls 'em as he sees 'em.

By the way, I am NOT related to this kid, nor do I have any business relationships with him. (LOL.) I've never even met him. I just enjoy his YouTube videos. I find them informative and entertaining, even if I do not always agree with his conclusions.

Absolutely THIS ^^
So it'd be interesting to know if Casio did this in purpose, which I suppose they did.

Probably they concluded that keeping the same downweight in black keys as the white ones would've made the black ones nearly unplayable anywhere but in the tip of the key, due to the short pivot length.

If this is is the case I think it's a reasonable choice, but I also see how this will affect control on subtle pieces. So, this would be yet another shortcoming of the short pivot length.

Perhaps it was a bad decision by casio to shrink down the piano that much, at least in the pivot direction. It's not really worth it, since usually weight (and not size) is the limiting factor for transport, and the piano's weight is pretty standard.

I suppose they did it for the looks and for the "slimmest weighted DP ever" title.
Mike Martin and Rich Formidoni of Casio did a livestream Q&A on the PX-S1000 and S3000 on Facebook/YouTube on April 6th and this issue was raised as one of the first questions. They said they were aware of the video in question (presumably James' first video, as the second came out on 4/3 and probably hadn't been widely discussed yet).

They were a bit defensive, stating that weighing the keys only on the ends is not representative of the way people play and should not be the way to judge the PX-S series' action. Rich also stated that there was nothing overlooked [when the action was designed] and that the action is not flawed:

Their response is from10:41 - 12:04 of the video. I think this link will take you straight to where their response starts:
https://youtu.be/O3Pmk3Kwk6Y?t=641

I also made a comment on James' second YouTube video which I can see when logged into my Google account but is not publicly viewable otherwise. It appears James may be moderating the comments?
Originally Posted by Tom Fort
They were a bit defensive, stating that weighing the keys only on the ends is not representative of the way people play

So, it's like with Apple and the "Antenna Gate":
- You are holding it wrong!
- You are playing it wrong!

Of course if the pivot length weren't so short then measuring the key weight at the front of the key would better correlate with the playing feel elsewhere along the key. But no. The keys are short.

So, how am I supposed play e.g. any scale with mostly white keys but with some black keys in it too? By moving my hand back and forth to find the "sweet spots" on white and black keys to find the similar feel from each? Or play the white keys awkwardly from between the black keys so that I don't need to move my hand back and forth and maybe the playing feel is then more equal(?)

Rant over. 😊 I haven't ever even played a PX-S, but those were my initial thoughts.
I am a pro and didn't notice the action problem (short pivot) on my PX-S3000 until I played some gigs with multiple 45 minute sets. Then I noticed I was being fatigued by the action. I replaced it with a Kawai ES-110 and am quite a bit more comfortable with its action, it's less tiring. I also prefer the Kawai piano samples.
"We recommend that you always play in C."
I think James' critique of the PX-S3000's action should be taken as one person's perspective, especially coming from a classically trained player's point of view.

I read some other forums besides PW, and the general consensus of the PX-S3000 is that it's pretty exceptional for the money. Over at Keyboard Corner, there are some folks with pretty strong jazz chops who consider it to be the best gigging board under 38 lbs (the weight of Yamaha's CP4, which is also far more expensive).

It'll be interesting to hear more from good classical players regarding whether they feel they can't play with nuance on the black keys or if the slight (10g?) difference in white key/black key weight balance affects their playing to a noticeable level.
Originally Posted by Tom Fort
I think James' critique of the PX-S3000's action should be taken as one person's perspective, especially coming from a classically trained player's point of view.

I read some other forums besides PW, and the general consensus of the PX-S3000 is that it's pretty exceptional for the money. Over at Keyboard Corner, there are some folks with pretty strong jazz chops who consider it to be the best gigging board under 38 lbs (the weigh of Yamaha's CP4, which is also far more expensive).

It'll be interesting to hear more from good classical players regarding whether they feel they can't play with nuance on the black keys or if the slight (10g?) difference in white key/black key weight balance affects their playing to a noticeable level.

Yeah, overall people say the action is good. This downweight difference for sure has an effect on playing, the question is: how big is this effect? It'd be nice to hear other opinions from classical music experts.

Still, it bugs me that they could've made a better action just by making the piano slightly bigger. Bummer.
I’m not a pro. Just an amateur. I’ve played both jazz and classical and I find the two genres very different in regards to demands from the keyboard. For jazz you need light keyboard that’s easy to play since the most important aspect of jazz is the rhythm of both comping and soloing. With classical and especially romantic repertoire it’s about very fine control of dynamics and inertial control of the key. Heavy is not necessarily bad and is even preferable. The guys over at the Keyboard Corner are jazzmen. Most of them will use the Rhodes patch more often than an acoustic piano patch. Most of them will play a dotted eight and a sixteenth as a swing triplet wink Each to their own.
I think that's well stated, Gene.

My son is a moderately accomplished high school jazz piano player and takes the S3000 out when he gigs as it only weighs 25 lbs. I think he'd only notice the 10g difference in white key/black key weights if he was soloing a ballad, for the majority of his playing with his trio or quartet I don't think he does. He has a Crumar Mojo 61 with a lighter action he uses on predominantly Rhodes gigs.
My guess is that the key weight difference is probably not egregious in total, otherwise it would have been discovered long before James' review. But if you do focus more on dynamics/control, it's probably one of those things you can't "unfeel" once you know it's there. Personally, I think the short pivot is more of an issue (and may exacerbate the key weight difference if you really need to strike more forcefully to get a white key down next to a black key in a chord).

While I don't think Casio designed it this way on purpose, I do feel that issues like these are probably accepted tradeoffs in the design of the keybed. Casio is clearly targeting more than just the beginner home piano student; these are being positioned as lightweight, full-featured easy-travel gigging DPs (Kawai is chasing this market with the ES-110 too) and Casio is clearly willing to accept compromises to the action in order to hit the sweet spot for that market.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I’m not a pro. Just an amateur. I’ve played both jazz and classical and I find the two genres very different in regards to demands from the keyboard. For jazz you need light keyboard that’s easy to play since the most important aspect of jazz is the rhythm of both comping and soloing. With classical and especially romantic repertoire it’s about very fine control of dynamics and inertial control of the key. Heavy is not necessarily bad and is even preferable. The guys over at the Keyboard Corner are jazzmen. Most of them will use the Rhodes patch more often than an acoustic piano patch. Most of them will play a dotted eight and a sixteenth as a swing triplet wink Each to their own.
I have not heard anything like this before (that you need a different weight of keys for classical and jazz). A lot of opinions which people write on this forum - are a bit eccentric to say the least.
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Originally Posted by Tom Fort
They were a bit defensive, stating that weighing the keys only on the ends is not representative of the way people play

So, it's like with Apple and the "Antenna Gate":
- You are holding it wrong!
- You are playing it wrong!

Of course if the pivot length weren't so short then measuring the key weight at the front of the key would better correlate with the playing feel elsewhere along the key. But no. The keys are short.

So, how am I supposed play e.g. any scale with mostly white keys but with some black keys in it too? By moving my hand back and forth to find the "sweet spots" on white and black keys to find the similar feel from each? Or play the white keys awkwardly from between the black keys so that I don't need to move my hand back and forth and maybe the playing feel is then more equal(?)

Rant over. 😊 I haven't ever even played a PX-S, but those were my initial thoughts.
I can't even notice any different weight of keys. And I play a lot of different pianos.

The criticisms of it are really weird, considering it is just $600 - I wonder what people expect from such a keyboard. For the price, it is just what I needed and I would rate it 5 stars out of 5, and it seems like people who are complaining so much about it have OCD or unrealistic expectations about budget products. (If you are a fussy princess and can't enjoy this entry level product, get something else and triple your budget).

Actually I use the PX-S1000 as a tool for practicing scales and other exercises before bed late at night. Sometimes I even enjoy it for improvising. It sounds pretty good on headphones, when I play it. Any adjustments to it happen automatically, like they do with most pianos and keyboard I play.
Originally Posted by 3am_stargazing
The criticisms of it are really weird, considering it is just $600 - I wonder what people expect from such a keyboard.

I suppose people expect the same they expect from all other $600 pianos: black and white keys with the same downweight.
Originally Posted by 3am_stargazing
A lot of opinions which people write on this forum - are a bit eccentric to say the least.
I’m sorry to hear that you haven’t find the proper forum for you.
3am_stargazing,

It seems you're taking the observations/opinions about this digital piano somewhat personally. And while I can't speak for anybody else, I just wanted to say that I don't think anything has been the intent here. If you have this keyboard and you like it, then that's great, But it's a bit unwarranted to go off and claim everyone who disagrees with you is weird or eccentric.
Originally Posted by RodrigoPon
Originally Posted by 3am_stargazing
The criticisms of it are really weird, considering it is just $600 - I wonder what people expect from such a keyboard.

I suppose people expect the same they expect from all other $600 pianos: black and white keys with the same downweight.
People who buy $600 keyboards do not usually measure the downweight of the keys. And there's no perceptible difference between the black and the white keys. Just the stiffness near the fallboard for all the keys.
Originally Posted by Gombessa
3am_stargazing,

It seems you're taking the observations/opinions about this digital piano somewhat personally. And while I can't speak for anybody else, I just wanted to say that I don't think anything has been the intent here. If you have this keyboard and you like it, then that's great, But it's a bit unwarranted to go off and claim everyone who disagrees with you is weird or eccentric.
I'm not viewing this personally, and I'm not saying the people here are weird or eccentric.

I mean, that the opinions which I said are weird or eccentric opinions - i.e. that you need a light keyboard in jazz, and a heavy one in classical - they are weird and eccentric opinions, in the sense that they are new and idiosyncratic beliefs, which I have heard for the first time on this forum.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by 3am_stargazing
A lot of opinions which people write on this forum - are a bit eccentric to say the least.
I’m sorry to hear that you haven’t find the proper forum for you.
Well the number of "eccentric" opinions I've encountered is quite large - but the number of people espousing them is not (for example, they are all concentrated in the digital piano forum). smile

It's not a problem to espouse eccentric opinions, but the tone where novel idiosyncratic opinion are written as if they are long established facts: "For jazz you need light keyboard".
Originally Posted by 3am_stargazing
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by 3am_stargazing
A lot of opinions which people write on this forum - are a bit eccentric to say the least.
I’m sorry to hear that you haven’t find the proper forum for you.
Well the number of "eccentric" opinions I've encountered is quite large - but the number of people espousing them is not (for example, they are all concentrated in the digital piano forum). smile

It's not a problem to espouse eccentric opinions, but the tone where novel idiosyncratic opinion are written as if they are long established facts: "For jazz you need light keyboard".
Someone needs to inform Thelonious Monk, or inversely Horowitz, that they are doing it wrong.
Originally Posted by 3am_stargazing
It's not a problem to espouse eccentric opinions, but the tone where novel idiosyncratic opinion are written as if they are long established facts: "For jazz you need light keyboard".


Originally Posted by CyberGene
I’m not a pro. Just an amateur. I’ve played both jazz and classical and I find the two genres very different in regards to demands from the keyboard. For jazz you need light keyboard that’s easy to play since the most important aspect of jazz is the rhythm of both comping and soloing. With classical and especially romantic repertoire it’s about very fine control of dynamics and inertial control of the key. Heavy is not necessarily bad and is even preferable.


I'm not familiar with the UK elementary school system but in Bulgaria the first graders have a course called "how to read and study with comprehension" smile
Originally Posted by 3am_stargazing
Originally Posted by RodrigoPon
Originally Posted by 3am_stargazing
The criticisms of it are really weird, considering it is just $600 - I wonder what people expect from such a keyboard.

I suppose people expect the same they expect from all other $600 pianos: black and white keys with the same downweight.
People who buy $600 keyboards do not usually measure the downweight of the keys. And there's no perceptible difference between the black and the white keys. Just the stiffness near the fallboard for all the keys.

Well there's no perceptible difference for you. Clearly there is, otherwise James Pavel wouldn't have noticed and all this issue wouldn't even come up.

People who buy $600 DP also don't usually check if there's hammers inside, so let's put springs on them!
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I find the two genres very different in regards to demands from the keyboard.[/b]
"I find" - to me it reads like you have found out some truth about the genres, rather than being just your unusual subjective experience.

E.g. if you write, "I find that men are more intelligent than women", then women you haven't met might still assume your comment applies to them.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
For jazz you need light keyboard that’s easy to play since the most important aspect of jazz is the rhythm of both comping and soloing. With classical and especially romantic repertoire it’s about very fine control of dynamics and inertial control of the key. Heavy is not necessarily bad and is even preferable.
This is interesting as a personal opinion, which is telling us about your idiosyncratic preferences, but it's not about jazz or classical music. On the other hand, someone might misinterpret and assume you are trying to describe an objective reality, and that you will soon be recommending different keyboard weights for different genres.

I think it's not an uninteresting topic. Surely key weight has had an influence on the development of certain pianists and composers, although it doesn't seem fixed to different genres in any blanket way?

For example, Chopin practiced (always with a metronome) on a piano with very light keys.

On the other hand, Horace Silver was apparently composing on a stiff, beat up and out of tune upright (and I feel like I can hear this in his music).
This is an Internet forum where people express their personal opinion. Everyone is equal in that he can share his opinion and be right or wrong, or as eccentric or mainstream as he wishes. I’m not given any authority by a higher power or even appropriated or assumed an authoritative identity to be treated differently by other members as an executive person issuing decrees that they obey.

Let’s not go into some twisted semantic and language analysis on how my words sound because you and others very well know and understand that everyone here expresses personal opinions. And you’re free to find them eccentric of course smile But to me it’s an exaggeration or a misunderstanding of the freedom of thought and ideas.
Originally Posted by RodrigoPon
Originally Posted by 3am_stargazing
Originally Posted by RodrigoPon
Originally Posted by 3am_stargazing
The criticisms of it are really weird, considering it is just $600 - I wonder what people expect from such a keyboard.

I suppose people expect the same they expect from all other $600 pianos: black and white keys with the same downweight.
People who buy $600 keyboards do not usually measure the downweight of the keys. And there's no perceptible difference between the black and the white keys. Just the stiffness near the fallboard for all the keys.

Well there's no perceptible difference for you. Clearly there is, otherwise James Pavel wouldn't have noticed and all this issue wouldn't even come up.
You are inferring something from a sample size of 1. One YouTuber perceives the difference of weight between the black and white keys and finds this annoys him. Another YouTuber might say that Nordost interconnects sound better than Amazon basics ones (it doesn't mean most people will notice this).

Ideally you would do some double blind testing, to see if a significant proportion of people would notice this without prepping.

This weight difference is not something I notice, so I can offer you the datapoint of another sample of one. And you can search how many other pianists noticed a difference in the weight of the black keys and weight keys.

If it's not noticeable for most people, then the criticism should be qualified with the disclaimer - that only few people will notice this. (Unlike, in this particular product, the stiffness of keys near the fallboard, which is commonly noted by people).
Originally Posted by RodrigoPon
People who buy $600 DP also don't usually check if there's hammers inside, so let's put springs on them!

If I buy a cheap entry-level priced oven, I won't measure if the 200°C setting is exactly 200°C, instead of 199.3 °C, and wouldn't notice a difference. Probably many of the products I own are like this.

Perhaps, if you spend thousands of dollars on a oven, you might measure it carefully, expecting precision engineering, even in criteria which would be imperceptible for the purposes you bought the product for. On the other hand, for a budget produc - I imagine that most people expect it to be fit for their purpose.

You wrote above something about scales. Well that's what I'm using the PX-S1000 for every day - I am using it to practice scales and exercise. It's very fit for this purpose (practicing scales, etc) in my case, and exceeded all my expectations for value for money, for this kind of product.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
This is an Internet forum where people express their personal opinion. Everyone is equal in that he can share his opinion and be right or wrong, or as eccentric or mainstream as he wishes. I’m not given any authority by a higher power or even appropriated or assumed an authoritative identity to be treated differently by other members as an executive person issuing decrees that they obey.

Let’s not go into some twisted semantic and language analysis on how my words sound because you and others very well know and understand that everyone here expresses personal opinions. And you’re free to find them eccentric of course smile But to me it’s an exaggeration or a misunderstanding of the freedom of thought and ideas.
Of course, it's a nice thing and part of the free exchange of ideas that people are expressing their opinions. And also no less, that other people are expressing their opinions about those opinions.
Originally Posted by 3am_stargazing
Originally Posted by RodrigoPon
People who buy $600 DP also don't usually check if there's hammers inside, so let's put springs on them!

If I buy a cheap entry-level priced oven, I won't measure if the 200°C setting is exactly 200°C, instead of 199.3 °C, and wouldn't notice a difference. Probably many of the products I own are like this.

Perhaps, if you spend thousands of dollars on a oven, you might measure it carefully, expecting precision engineering, even in criteria which would be imperceptible for the purposes you bought the product for. On the other hand, for a budget produc - I imagine that most people expect it to be fit for their purpose.

You wrote above something about scales. Well that's what I'm using the PX-S1000 for every day - I am using it to practice scales and exercise. It's very fit for this purpose (practicing scales, etc) in my case, and exceeded all my expectations for value for money, for this kind of product.

Just to add to my comment about value for money, in case it will be useful for other budget people who might read this, be misled by some folks who buy more expensive products, and seem to need to justify their higher expenditures. Subjectively, value for money will vary depending on the person's requirements - but within those requirements it should be a linear monotonic relationship.

A Yamaha P-515 costs 250% more than a Casio PX-S1000. So which is better value for money? When I was trying the P-515 in the shop it certainly felt somewhat more realistic (and would have less stiffness near the fallboard, for people who have that as a pet peeve - for others' reading, I am not fussy about stiff keys near fallboards, which may or may not be unusual). For my dorm-room purposes, there is no way it could be anywhere near 250% more valuable. I.e. PX-S1000 is excellent value for money relative to more expensive categories of product. I imagine this is the situation for many other consumers, although you would need a poll of consumers to know what proportion enjoy the action, don't mind stiffness near the fallboard, etc.

As for precise weights of black and white keys - this issue I find difficult even to understand how someone could notice it (as I was trying to do just now), but perhaps some people have differently wired brains and they can perceive such weight differences between black and white keys. Mentioning this as the main flaw of the product in a review, might be misleading for most consumers, unless you have tried to do some kind of poll or test to see that any other people will actually notice it.
I compared the audio signals straight from my digital piano to the computer's (yes, computer's, not an audio interface's) line input panned to left and Pianoteq with my current settings.

Looks like (in Audacity) that the Pianoteq audio comes about 45 milliseconds later in the recording. I don't know what Kawai did with the ES100 i.e. is there any built-in "hammer delay" to simulate a real piano or is everything as instant as possible with the electronics.

I can play both sounds on top of each other and have a sort of chorus effect, but otherwise it's not distracting. And I don't experience any issue when playing just Pianoteq even though it's (or rather the whole MIDI + audio chain is) ~45 ms slower than the built-in sound of the Kawai.

Somebody else might be absolutely devastated!

...for me not using an audio interface.

And maybe for the latency too. 😁

Similarly as I've said before the PX-S models might be just fine for most of the world's population.

Just take this key weight discussion as "academic" or something and let it go...
Originally Posted by 3am_stargazing
...A Yamaha P-515 costs 250% more than a Casio PX-S1000. So which is better value for money?

I think the ES110 and the FP30 are better value than the PX-S. At Yamaha you should compare the P125, but I don't like its keys either.
Are the black keys Addressable so that such a velocity curve could be imposed?
I suggested this to the Canadian Casio distributer.
Heard nothing back from Casio but I’m afraid to play it much as it overstressed my hands when I first got it.
It’s taken months and I’m still ‘ham-handed’ after being in good form for coffee houses.
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
And yes he has changed his mind and said that it was difficult to really assess the piano in the noisy NAMM.
Yeah, or it could be he didn't want to lose his YT cred by doing something gauche like saying something nice about a Casio. I don't see how noise can affect your judgement of key weight.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
But, but, but... top-notch classical pianists play big time concertos and virtuoso repertoire on these new Casios!!! If you can’t play well, then the problem is in you!
Well they're not really doing so on $10k+ "legit hybrids" either.

I know what "cred" means, but what is "YT cred"?
Originally Posted by Almaviva
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
And yes he has changed his mind and said that it was difficult to really assess the piano in the noisy NAMM.
Yeah, or it could be he didn't want to lose his YT cred by doing something gauche like saying something nice about a Casio. I don't see how noise can affect your judgement of key weight.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
But, but, but... top-notch classical pianists play big time concertos and virtuoso repertoire on these new Casios!!! If you can’t play well, then the problem is in you!
Well they're not really doing so on $10k+ "legit hybrids" either.

I know what "cred" means, but what is "YT cred"?
YouTube Credit?
On some YouTube videos I’ve watch(and I have played the 3000), the quieter volume of the black keys is very noticeable and brought back my experience playing the board.

Knowing the down weight does reflect on a back story component.

I did not get the board, which I was looking forward to. It was a $900.00 board.

I bought the Dexibell P3.
I returned the Casio PSX3000 and bought the Kawai ESS-110. Night and day.
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