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Ok - so regardless of price, what is hands down the most realistic acoustic grand action and sound in a Digital Piano?
What is the absolute top of the line now?
I know there are some taste differences - kawai grand, yamaha, steinway, faziola, etc.

But which one really knocks it out of the park for you, both in terms of matching action and sound of an actual fantastic acoustic grand?
Check out the Yamaha C3X TA2. Nothing should get you closer to the real thing.
It’s between the AvantGrand and the Novus. Both are hybrids, meaning they stick a real grand piano action in the body.
I would chose the one with the more realistic action: fast and with little friction. “Fly away keys”. I suspect Yamaha might have the quicker action.
You're asking for 3 different things:
1. Best digital piano
2. Most realistic action (closest to an acoustic grand piano action)
3. Best sound

Answers:
1. Yamaha AvantGrand N3X
2. Kawai Novus NV10
3. If you like Steinway sound: Vienna Symphonic Library Steinway D:
https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Synchron_Pianos_Bundle/Concert_D
Otherwise it will be a different VST.
Yes asking for three things in one instrument. (1) digital; (2) most realistic action; and (3) most realistic sound - like one is playing an awesome acoustic grand piano.

The responses so far about the AvantGrand and the NV10 make sense. Not interested in a VST - because I am looking for all three in one instrument.

It is unfortunate that I really like the Steinway sound the best - because it seems that there is not a "hybrid" out yet that has accomplished that.

I agree about VSL' steinway, btw.

Thank you very much!

(BTW - what is exciting about these responses - is that these responses would not have existed 10 years ago. I think the next 10 years will be amazing!)
Originally Posted by AB99
Yes asking for three things in one instrument.

Note that requirements #1 and #2 are incompatible.
As acoustic pianos have design limitations.

E.g. Kawai's NV10 has a full acoustic action including the key weight is lighter when you pedal.
However the Yamaha N3X is superior because it keeps the key weights the same - irrespective of whether you are pedalling.

You can't have a 100% acoustic action are still be considered the best/most advanced. Improvement comes via change. Things don't get better if they stay the same (if you simply copy an acoustic action).
Originally Posted by Burkie
Originally Posted by AB99
Yes asking for three things in one instrument.

Note that requirements #1 and #2 are incompatible.
As acoustic pianos have design limitations.

E.g. Kawai's NV10 has a full acoustic action including the key weight is lighter when you pedal.
However the Yamaha N3X is superior because it keeps the key weights the same - irrespective of whether you are pedalling.

You can't have a 100% acoustic action are still be considered the best/most advanced. Improvement comes via change. Things don't get better if they stay the same (if you simply copy an acoustic action).


Interesting, but flawed, view in my opinion. How much experience do you have of grand pianos?
I am more optimistic. I remember recording with tape for years and some people talking about digital recording. Most of us thought that tape would remain the main recording means and that digital would never replace it. (Hmmm - Kodak may have thought the same thing). Anyway, things do change. Plugins will eventually emulate hardware - it is only a matter of time. And yes - digital keyboards will figure out a way to sound as good or better than acoustic grands while capturing of all the benefits of an acoustic grand's action. And yes, it will all eventually get lighter and weight and compensated by other innovations. We are only in the baby stage of the "high-tech" revolution - for lack of a better term.

The strides by Yamaha and Kawai illustrate this. Maybe someone will come up with a completely foldable soundboard that mimics that best sitka completely. It is all a matter of time and drive to innovate.
Originally Posted by Burkie
You're asking for 3 different things:
1. Best digital piano
2. Most realistic action (closest to an acoustic grand piano action)
3. Best sound

A TransAcoustic grand piano does all three as good as it gets. So why is this thread even bothering with hybrid digitals based on baby grand actions or even VSTs?

You won't get a better action in a digital piano than the action inside a Yamaha C3X TA2.

You won't get a better sound than through the Yamaha C3X TA2 soundboard.

You won't get a better digital piano than a real grand equipped with Yamaha SH2 and a way to project it to the room (beside the ability to play it conventionally).

Yes, it costs about 50k quid (or more), but the OP deliberately set no price limit. So what's the point of this discussion?
With regards to 'feeling' like an acoustic, I think we should exclude the hybrids because they don't feel like acoustics. They literally ARE an acoustic action. Obviously, there could still be differences in the feel. However, two of the same model of an acoustic piano could also feel different due to certain circumstances as we all know.
Originally Posted by JoeT
So what's the point of this discussion?


I assumed the OP meant best 'digital piano', not acoustic piano with digital capabilities.

'Best' is Yamaha Avant Grand N3X. That is best overall. The Novus NV10 may or may not have a slightly superior action. But as a package the N3X is certainly superior - but then it costs a lot more.

Aside from 'hybrids' such as Avant Grand and Novus then the older Roland V-Piano Grand (don't know if it's still available) could make a case for itself because I think Roland put some very careful thought into the onboard amplification.

Otherwise I would imagine the brand new Kawai CA series instruments will be about as good as it gets in the world of 'standard' (for want of a better word) digital pianos.
I assume Rolands GPX-F1 will be a contender. It was PianomanChucks choice for DP of the year at NAMM this year, and he has a video on that on Youtube. Apparently it comes at a rather high price though (500K USD, or something like that).

Here is Rolands presentation of it:

https://www.roland.com/global/promos/piano_design_awards/facet_grand_piano/
You’re kidding, right? That thing is a redundant monstrosity!
Incidentally, all these claims by Roland regarding its superior sound dispersion/reproduction are just that.....claims.

Originally Posted by Pete14
You’re kidding, right? That thing is a redundant monstrosity!
Incidentally, all these claims by Roland regarding its superior sound dispersion/reproduction are just that.....claims.



Certainly they're just claims for now. But Roland tends to deliver good stuff, so my gut feeling is that this DP will seem rather fine. Of course at that price we'll never know, because no piano playing person will pay such a horrendous sum of money for it. Only non-piano playing oligarchs in isolated fortresses will do so.

But I wouldn't mind having this thing at home; to me it looks simple and elegant.
Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by JoeT
So what's the point of this discussion?


I assumed the OP meant best 'digital piano', not acoustic piano with digital capabilities.

But the Yamaha C3X TA2 is a digital piano with acoustic capabilities. You don't have to use them.
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by JoeT
So what's the point of this discussion?


I assumed the OP meant best 'digital piano', not acoustic piano with digital capabilities.

But the Yamaha C3X TA2 is a digital piano with acoustic capabilities. You don't have to use them.


Well, it's purely semantics but I see silent grands and transacoustics as acoustic pianos with digital capabilities. I don't think most people consider them 'digital pianos'. But that's just my opinion.
Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
I assume Rolands GPX-F1 will be a contender. It was PianomanChucks choice for DP of the year at NAMM this year, and he has a video on that on Youtube. Apparently it comes at a rather high price though (500K USD, or something like that).

Here is Rolands presentation of it:

https://www.roland.com/global/promos/piano_design_awards/facet_grand_piano/

From the web link:
Quote

While we do not have any plans to release the Facet as a production model, we will continue to refine its design language and technologies to influence future generations of Roland pianos.
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
From the web link:
Quote

While we do not have any plans to release the Facet as a production model, we will continue to refine its design language and technologies to influence future generations of Roland pianos.



According to PianomanChuck's report, the way he understands it Roland plans to make 10 of these pianos (at the 5:46 mark in the video):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O5XSoLUqq8
Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by Burkie
Originally Posted by AB99
Yes asking for three things in one instrument.

Note that requirements #1 and #2 are incompatible.
As acoustic pianos have design limitations.

E.g. Kawai's NV10 has a full acoustic action including the key weight is lighter when you pedal.
However the Yamaha N3X is superior because it keeps the key weights the same - irrespective of whether you are pedalling.

You can't have a 100% acoustic action are still be considered the best/most advanced. Improvement comes via change. Things don't get better if they stay the same (if you simply copy an acoustic action).


Interesting, but flawed, view in my opinion. How much experience do you have of grand pianos?

Enough to know that they're far too loud for most living rooms and apartments!
Again, a design limitation.

At least we both agree that the N3X is currently the best digital piano on the market smile. And that itself proves digitals should not 100% copy acoustic actions.
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Burkie
You're asking for 3 different things:
1. Best digital piano
2. Most realistic action (closest to an acoustic grand piano action)
3. Best sound

A TransAcoustic grand piano does all three as good as it gets. So what's the point of this discussion?

Nope. TransAcoustics suffer from the same design limitations as acoustics:
Key weight fluctuates depending upon pedaling.
Require frequent tuning.
Require constant electricity consumption for heating / air conditioning to prevent the sound board from warping/dying.
Digitals use less power and last longer without power.

You're burning your cash, mate!
Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by Burkie
Originally Posted by AB99
Yes asking for three things in one instrument.

Note that requirements #1 and #2 are incompatible.
As acoustic pianos have design limitations.

E.g. Kawai's NV10 has a full acoustic action including the key weight is lighter when you pedal.
However the Yamaha N3X is superior because it keeps the key weights the same - irrespective of whether you are pedalling.

You can't have a 100% acoustic action are still be considered the best/most advanced. Improvement comes via change. Things don't get better if they stay the same (if you simply copy an acoustic action).


Interesting, but flawed, view in my opinion.

Feel free to elaborate.
Originally Posted by EssBrace
'Best' is Yamaha Avant Grand N3X. That is best overall.


The N3X is the best I've played. It surpasses the original N3 in terms of a player connection with a quality acoustic grand.

That is followed by the N1X and the N2, in that order. I haven't played anything else - in the hybrid category- that I would care to own.


Correct - about what I meant. Digital piano - not an actual acoustic piano with digital capabilities. Thank you! (To clarify further - to me - a digital piano has a sound that comes from some sort of digital formulation - not from a hammer hitting a string - and has the advantage of staying in tune - perhaps with the sounds of an instrument that would acoustically be a lot larger, and my I add - perhaps we should not consider DPs that are over $15,000 U.S.) I have found this discussion interesting, so I do appreciate it.

Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by JoeT
So what's the point of this discussion?


I assumed the OP meant best 'digital piano', not acoustic piano with digital capabilities.

'Best' is Yamaha Avant Grand N3X. That is best overall. The Novus NV10 may or may not have a slightly superior action. But as a package the N3X is certainly superior - but then it costs a lot more.

Aside from 'hybrids' such as Avant Grand and Novus then the older Roland V-Piano Grand (don't know if it's still available) could make a case for itself because I think Roland put some very careful thought into the onboard amplification.

Otherwise I would imagine the brand new Kawai CA series instruments will be about as good as it gets in the world of 'standard' (for want of a better word) digital pianos.

Originally Posted by AB99

It is unfortunate that I really like the Steinway sound the best - because it seems that there is not a "hybrid" out yet that has accomplished that.

I agree about VSL' steinway, btw.

Thank you very much!

You should also try the Casio GP-310 and GP-510 - they have a Steinway sample as their Hamburg setting.

The main drawback to those is their keys are a little bit slippery (and by little bit, I mean a lot!). But if your fingers don't sweat much then they should be fine.
To be honest when I bought my N1X (not delivered yet), I also played some acoustics.
A simple U3 sounds far better.
My next piano, after the N1X, will be an acoustic grand.
Originally Posted by Burkie
Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by Burkie
Originally Posted by AB99
Yes asking for three things in one instrument.

Note that requirements #1 and #2 are incompatible.
As acoustic pianos have design limitations.

E.g. Kawai's NV10 has a full acoustic action including the key weight is lighter when you pedal.
However the Yamaha N3X is superior because it keeps the key weights the same - irrespective of whether you are pedalling.

You can't have a 100% acoustic action are still be considered the best/most advanced. Improvement comes via change. Things don't get better if they stay the same (if you simply copy an acoustic action).


Interesting, but flawed, view in my opinion.

Feel free to elaborate.


You've quoted me but I also asked you how much experience you have of grand pianos. Of course I may be wrong but I'm guessing not much.

Your point about key weighting changing when the damper pedal is pressed is valid of course insofar as it's technically a fact. But the reality - which you'd know if you had spent time on a grand piano - is that it has no detrimental or disconcerting effect whatsoever. One's brain just subliminally adjusts in a totally seamless and more or less instantaneous way.

I had a Yamaha P-515 from November 12th until yesterday. I sold it after spending maybe about 30 minutes on it, possibly an hour at most (and it had sat there totally unplayed since November 13th - a significant date because that's the day my current acoustic arrived). It's a great portable digital piano. But if you have access to a decent grand piano there is no digital that can get anywhere near it, in any musical sense whatsoever.

So don't kid yourself that the makers of digital pianos have found ways to 'improve' certain grand piano design elements; they haven't. Yes the acoustic needs tuning. But I have done nothing at all to control the temperature or humidity.

I previously owned a Yamaha AvantGrand N3 and a number of other high end digitals. The N3(X) is a very good thing but it is still miles away from rivalling a good grand piano. I really don't think any digital piano will ever get particularly close.
May not happen in my lifetime, but ever is a long time.
Originally Posted by EssBrace

But if you have access to a decent grand piano there is no digital that can get anywhere near it, in any musical sense whatsoever.


Counterpoint: that depends on your goals. I am absolutely convinced that you can record via a DP with such quality the average listener would never, ever guess it wasn't a real grand piano. And that, to me, is ultimately the end goal.

That the experience of you, the musician, is different when sitting and playing is obviously true, and I agree I doubt a digital reproduction can ever fully replicate the intricacies of live acoustic sound.
Quote

Counterpoint: that depends on your goals. I am absolutely convinced that you can record via a DP with such quality the average listener would never, ever guess it wasn't a real grand piano. And that, to me, is ultimately the end goal.

Recording digitally with an acoustic piano is just sampling every performance instead of sampling as part of the engineering of the instrument. This certainly will blur many of the differences between a digital and acoustic piano. The player of an acoustic piano today has more precise control of dynamics, which can come through in a recording. A listener of the recording would never have a way of knowing whether the dynamics captured in a recording were in any way the result of a limitation on what they player could have done, so whether or not a listener can tell if a recording was made with a DP or AP is not the distinguishing test.
Sometimes people forget why they purchase digital pianos. If a digital piano can fully recreate an acoustic piano then what’s the point? Just buy an acoustic. Digital pianos are to play quietly with headphones or to have a compact instrument. To mention just a few of the most popular reasons and there are many others. Personally I’m bound to digital pianos for exactly these two reasons. Once I’m not limited by space and neighbors you would see me running quicker than that Bolt guy towards the acoustic piano shop 😉
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Sometimes people forget why they purchase digital pianos. If a digital piano can fully recreate an acoustic piano then what’s the point? Just buy an acoustic. Digital pianos are to play quietly with headphones or to have a compact instrument. To mention just a few of the most popular reasons and there are many others. Personally I’m bound to digital pianos for exactly these two reasons. Once I’m not limited by space and neighbors you would see me running quicker than that Bolt guy towards the acoustic piano shop 😉


Or to be able to have a vastly broader palette of sound available, which is essential rather than a luxury when you produce music in a wide variety of genres.
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Quote

Counterpoint: that depends on your goals. I am absolutely convinced that you can record via a DP with such quality the average listener would never, ever guess it wasn't a real grand piano. And that, to me, is ultimately the end goal.

Recording digitally with an acoustic piano is just sampling every performance instead of sampling as part of the engineering of the instrument. This certainly will blur many of the differences between a digital and acoustic piano. The player of an acoustic piano today has more precise control of dynamics, which can come through in a recording. A listener of the recording would never have a way of knowing whether the dynamics captured in a recording were in any way the result of a limitation on what they player could have done, so whether or not a listener can tell if a recording was made with a DP or AP is not the distinguishing test.


Sure, but ask yourself for what kind of music that precise control of dynamics is really relevant. Heck, in pop music the piano goes through multiple stages of compression anyway: Garritan CFX tends to peak around -13dBFS, good luck getting that to -14LUFS with the pure natural dynamics of a grand! !
Originally Posted by EssBrace

You've quoted me but I also asked you how much experience you have of grand pianos. Of course I may be wrong but I'm guessing not much.

You did indeed, however I already replied the other day to your question - it appears you ignored that.
Originally Posted by EssBrace

Your point about key weighting changing when the damper pedal is pressed is valid of course insofar as it's technically a fact. But the reality - which you'd know if you had spent time on a grand piano - is that it has no detrimental or disconcerting effect whatsoever. One's brain just subliminally adjusts in a totally seamless and more or less instantaneous way.

That's false - your brain learns to work around the piano's physical flaw yes. But your brain has to learn to do that - that takes years of practise. That is not the same as 'subliminally adjusts' as you incorrectly purport!

You may have lots of experience playing grand pianos - that's why you've learned over the years to adjust to them. It's still a design flaw that is completely unnecessary and did in fact slow down your learning progress.
Originally Posted by EssBrace
Yes the acoustic needs tuning. But I have done nothing at all to control the temperature or humidity.

You must have a cheap one... My C.Bechstein has a built-in heater to keep it dry. Be careful: if humidity and/or temperature fluctuates much then your sound board will warp and die. Constant climate control via 24/7/365 air conditioning is the best way to look after your acoustic. If you can afford a good piano, you can afford the electricity.

Reiterating: this is indeed a design limitation of acoustic pianos.
Many Mason & Hamlin pianos include their tension resonator to reduce the effect of humidity and temperature changes on a soundboard.
Quote

Sure, but ask yourself for what kind of music that precise control of dynamics is really relevant. Heck, in pop music the piano goes through multiple stages of compression anyway: Garritan CFX tends to peak around -13dBFS, good luck getting that to -14LUFS with the pure natural dynamics of a grand! !

It is not just total dynamic range but the fine control of dynamics within the range. I have much more control of dynamic level with a vintage upright (with reconditioned action) than I do with an MP7SE or any other DP I’ve played, which admittedly does not include an N3X or NV10 for example.
Originally Posted by Burkie

You must have a cheap one... My C.Bechstein has a built-in heater to keep it dry. Be careful: if humidity and/or temperature fluctuates much then your sound board will warp and die. Constant climate control via 24/7/365 air conditioning is the best way to look after your acoustic. If you can afford a good piano, you can afford the electricity.

Reiterating: this is indeed a design limitation of acoustic pianos.


Curious that you don’t mention owning that instrument in your profile.
a Large % of artist release their music purely off samples/digital pianos in the modern world and probably like 90+% of people can't tell a difference. So yeah, the main goal is already accomplished. I'd honestly love to get people on forums like this do a proper blind test some day. I would bet money that even the hardcore people of this forum would struggle with a lot of the highest end models , despite how confident everyone seems to be.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
. If a digital piano can fully recreate an acoustic piano then what’s the point? Just buy an acoustic

As you said, a lot of people don't have room for an acoustic, or the money. In a lot of small towns there's no acoustic of decent quality for a good price. Meanwhile we can just order almost any digital piano online. That doesn't mean they don't want it to be as realistic as possible. So "just buy an acoustic" is a pretty silly thing to say. We still want the instruments to be as realistic as possible despite the reasons we can't get an acoustic. And even if those issues didn't exist... If I could get a digital piano that weighs FAR less than an acoustic, takes up much less space, and sounds extremely real, why would I even want an acoustic that costs a lot more money?

I also think anyone that thinks digital won't ever "get close" to acoustics are either kidding themselves or are ignorant about technology in general. We can't afford the power to do it now, but theoretically it's definitely possible to reproduce the sound of an acoustic piano to the point where no human could tell it was fake. It's impossible to guess how fast technology will grow (just look at the last 20 years of computing power growth!), so I can't even throw out a real time frame but I wouldn't be surprised if it's within the next 20-30 years. This reminds me of the whole Ray-tracing debate for computer graphics. A lot of people said it wouldn't be possible to do real-time ray-tracing, ever. But we're already doing a hybrid version of it in consumer hardware (RTX video cards) in real-time. Full-blown ray-tracing in real time isn't a dream anymore. Neither is a very realistically modeled piano. It will just take time. But we definitely have a long ways to go.
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Originally Posted by Burkie
You must have a cheap one... My C.Bechstein has a built-in heater to keep it dry.


Curious that you don’t mention owning that instrument in your profile.


Indeed.

"My other car is a Porsche" etc.
I almost always prefer an acoustic piano for a grand piano sound. But it is not always affordable, not always capable of being in the room where I want to play it, it is not necessarily portable, not necessarily in tune, etc. And others make good points, that once you can get really close to an acoustic piano in so many ways, then digital also allows for a variety of other sounds and options.

I suppose eventually acoustic pianos will have more digital characteristics and digital pianos will have more acoustic characteristics.

I like Kougeru's post above - a lot!

Meanwhile, I think all the good answers of examples that exist to date, have already been provided in the posts of this thread, in digital form smile So, thank you.
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Originally Posted by Burkie

You must have a cheap one... My C.Bechstein has a built-in heater to keep it dry. Be careful: if humidity and/or temperature fluctuates much then your sound board will warp and die. Constant climate control via 24/7/365 air conditioning is the best way to look after your acoustic. If you can afford a good piano, you can afford the electricity.

Reiterating: this is indeed a design limitation of acoustic pianos.


Curious that you don’t mention owning that instrument in your profile.

It arrives on Wednesday - I won it in a competition smile

Originally Posted by Kougeru
a Large % of artist release their music purely off samples/digital pianos in the modern world and probably like 90+% of people can't tell a difference. So yeah, the main goal is already accomplished. I'd honestly love to get people on forums like this do a proper blind test some day. I would bet money that even the hardcore people of this forum would struggle with a lot of the highest end models , despite how confident everyone seems to be.

I was in a restaurant in Broome last year, and the jazz pianist was playing on a Yamaha CLP-665 (not even their current model CLP).

Everyone I asked thought it was a real baby grand. Even when I pointed out that it wasn't - they wouldn't believe me until I showed them it had no strings and a power light glowing red!
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Originally Posted by Burkie
You must have a cheap one... My C.Bechstein has a built-in heater to keep it dry.


Curious that you don’t mention owning that instrument in your profile.


Indeed.

"My other car is a Porsche" etc.


Ha ha . . my current one is a recycled Porsche . . .
Originally Posted by Burkie
Originally Posted by Kougeru
a Large % of artist release their music purely off samples/digital pianos in the modern world and probably like 90+% of people can't tell a difference. So yeah, the main goal is already accomplished. I'd honestly love to get people on forums like this do a proper blind test some day. I would bet money that even the hardcore people of this forum would struggle with a lot of the highest end models , despite how confident everyone seems to be.

I was in a restaurant in Broome last year, and the jazz pianist was playing on a Yamaha CLP-665 (not even their current model CLP).

Everyone I asked thought it was a real baby grand. Even when I pointed out that it wasn't - they wouldn't believe me until I showed them it had no strings and a power light glowing red!


It's easy to forget how clueless people generally are. Plenty of people struggle to differentiate between real string recordings and 90s samples...
Originally Posted by EssBrace

I had a Yamaha P-515 from November 12th until yesterday. I sold it after spending maybe about 30 minutes on it, possibly an hour at most (and it had sat there totally unplayed since November 13th - a significant date because that's the day my current acoustic arrived). It's a great portable digital piano.

Most people on here would disagree that the P-515 is a 'great' piano! It has short keys, and a heavy action. Almost any new acoustic piano will feel better than that.
Originally Posted by Burkie

I was in a restaurant in Broome last year, and the jazz pianist was playing on a Yamaha CLP-665 (not even their current model CLP).

Everyone I asked thought it was a real baby grand. Even when I pointed out that it wasn't - they wouldn't believe me until I showed them it had no strings and a power light glowing red!

I was a weekend in an ‘all inclusive’ hotel and the drummer of the coverband faked half of the songs with ghost strokes while a drumtrack was played.
I couldn’t believe my eyes and ears, couldn’t believe the deceitful wannabe drummer...and i couldn’t believe how f’ing little the general publics seems to care and understand what true live music should be about.
Originally Posted by Burkie
Originally Posted by EssBrace

I had a Yamaha P-515 from November 12th until yesterday. I sold it after spending maybe about 30 minutes on it, possibly an hour at most (and it had sat there totally unplayed since November 13th - a significant date because that's the day my current acoustic arrived). It's a great portable digital piano.

Most people on here would disagree that the P-515 is a 'great' piano! It has short keys, and a heavy action. Almost any new acoustic piano will feel better than that.


I think there is at least some measure of consensus that the P-515 is a great portable digital piano; it is certainly fully competitive in its market segment. Many people here own one and many are satisfied with it. You certainly seem to think you speak for the majority on here so the satisfied P-515 owners and aspiring owners must all be wrong.

I think you should perhaps read this thread back to yourself.

You express opinions as hard facts, not just on this thread but in all others you contribute to. You made assumptions about my playing experience and piano ownership - all wrong - and yet you expressed those as if they were fact. You make statements based purely on your own (rather odd) opinions but you express them as absolutes. Then, in shall we say a rather unexpected turn of events, you kept on going; claiming to own a Bechstein but then stating it was yet to arrive having won it in a competition. A competition you entered, presumably hoping to win said Bechstein, despite the fact you don't seem to have very positive views about acoustic pianos?

I'm afraid all of this puts your credibility in a smidgen of doubt in my opinion.

Anyway, I'm sure I'm not alone in looking forward to seeing the pictures of you with your lovely Bechstein (the one you've won in that competition) and reading your detailed impressions of the instrument. I think I can speak for everyone here when I wish you a very long and rewarding relationship with the instrument. Speaking as a fellow Bechstein owner (I got mine the boring way), I do hope it was first prize? I wouldn't like to think it was the runner-up prize to a Johnny-come-lately Fazioli.
@EssBrace: As I began reading your last post I was inclined to reply: "Please ignore the troll."

But as I continued reading it became clear that no such advice was needed. So instead I'll say: "Thank you for slam-dunking the troll."
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
@EssBrace: As I began reading your last post I was inclined to reply: "Please ignore the troll."

But as I continued reading it became clear that no such advice was needed. So instead I'll say: "Thank you for slam-dunking the troll."


Morning Mac.

A troll you say? Heaven forfend - I hadn't even considered the possibility!
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
Originally Posted by EssBrace

But if you have access to a decent grand piano there is no digital that can get anywhere near it, in any musical sense whatsoever.


Counterpoint: that depends on your goals. I am absolutely convinced that you can record via a DP with such quality the average listener would never, ever guess it wasn't a real grand piano. And that, to me, is ultimately the end goal.

That the experience of you, the musician, is different when sitting and playing is obviously true, and I agree I doubt a digital reproduction can ever fully replicate the intricacies of live acoustic sound.


Interestingly, when I got into listening to classical music I really didn't like orchestras... but liked piano only CDs...

...the first time I heard a live orchestra I was absolutely blown away! Converted instantly.

So, agreed - some things are just better in vivo. There's no real substitute for them in cyber-space!
Originally Posted by EssBrace

I think there is at least some measure of consensus that the P-515 is a great portable digital piano; it is certainly fully competitive in its market segment.

Do you have any evidence for this?
Originally Posted by EssBrace

You express opinions as hard facts

Do feel free to elaborate instead of making unspecific baseless accusations.
Originally Posted by EssBrace
You made assumptions about my playing experience and piano ownership

Now we know for sure that you're on the turps!
I never made any such assumptions - please provide the source of your mistaken beliefs.
Originally Posted by EssBrace
claiming to own a Bechstein but then stating it was yet to arrive having won it in a competition

I'm not sure what your point is here? I do own a Bechstein and it is arriving on Wednesday as I made crystal clear to you.
You seem to be having some troubles with your comprehension.
Originally Posted by EssBrace
A competition you entered, presumably hoping to win said Bechstein, despite the fact you don't seem to have very positive views about acoustic pianos?

I'm afraid all of this puts your credibility in a smidgen of doubt in my opinion.

Wrong again - which has cremated your last glimmer of potential credibility beyond all possible hope of redemption.

I did not believe I had any chance of winning, so I suggest you - Mr I Love Putting Words Into Other People's Keyboards - stop digging a deeper grave for yourself every time you decide to make an outburst.
Originally Posted by EssBrace

Anyway, I'm sure I'm not alone in looking forward to seeing the pictures of you with your lovely Bechstein (the one you've won in that competition).

My pleasure:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/DDse1cNhy9j5U63u6
And it is with much bonafide gratitude that I thank all of the people who have given me advice on this forum (yes even you MacMacMac smile ).

It's due to researching pianos on this forum that Facebook advertising happened to feed me that competition advertisement last October. The piano gods have indeed smiled upon me smile

Now on a related 'note' (pardon the pun)... If anyone knows anyone in Singapore who might want a new C.Bechstein A124 please send them my way!
Originally Posted by Burkie
Originally Posted by EssBrace

Anyway, I'm sure I'm not alone in looking forward to seeing the pictures of you with your lovely Bechstein (the one you've won in that competition).

My pleasure:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/DDse1cNhy9j5U63u6

I would have sworn you were a troll. Congrats on winning that competition and on your wonderful new piano! Do you mind telling us a bit more about the competition, what music did you play, etc? BTW, I find your extreme and harsh attitude on this forum to be pretty annoying which is why I thought you were an anonymous troll. And I believe I'm not alone in that. You may need to think about that smile (And I agree someone can possibly say that to me as well.)
Originally Posted by Burkie
Originally Posted by EssBrace

You express opinions as hard facts

Do feel free to elaborate instead of making unspecific baseless accusations.


Most of your NAMM predictions for product releases, which you repeated here ad nauseam, were wrong.
You won a competition (as in you played better than a field of other pianists), or you won a raffle (as in you dropped a slip of paper in a box)?
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Originally Posted by Burkie
Originally Posted by EssBrace

You express opinions as hard facts

Do feel free to elaborate instead of making unspecific baseless accusations.


Most of your NAMM predictions for product releases, which you repeated here ad nauseam, were wrong.

I don't recall making one single NAMM prediction ever - let alone posting it on here... Please link to my post.

My only predictions were:
1. Musikmesse 2020 (April) will see the release of the Yamaha Clavinova CLP-7xx series.
2. Roland will release a new FP model to replace the FP-90 in 2020.

I don't believe I have ever given a flying flap about NAMM - and I don't think I ever will either smile
Originally Posted by Burkie
Originally Posted by EssBrace
You made assumptions about my playing experience and piano ownership

Now we know for sure that you're on the turps!
I never made any such assumptions - please provide the source of your mistaken beliefs.


Originally Posted by Burkie
Originally Posted by EssBrace

Your point about key weighting changing when the damper pedal is pressed is valid of course insofar as it's technically a fact. But the reality - which you'd know if you had spent time on a grand piano - is that it has no detrimental or disconcerting effect whatsoever. One's brain just subliminally adjusts in a totally seamless and more or less instantaneous way.

That's false - your brain learns to work around the piano's physical flaw yes. But your brain has to learn to do that - that takes years of practise. That is not the same as 'subliminally adjusts' as you incorrectly purport!

You may have lots of experience playing grand pianos - that's why you've learned over the years to adjust to them. It's still a design flaw that is completely unnecessary and did in fact slow down your learning progress.


I'd say you were making assumptions about me here, wouldn't you? I've told you my experience about the use of the damper pedal and you have effectively told me I'm wrong. But that has been my experience. I don't in fact have "lots of experience" playing grand pianos. In another post you stated I "must have a cheap one" when referring to my piano. More assumptions. More unequivocal statements. All wrong of course.

I congratulate you on your apparent piano win. From your picture you look so unassuming and mild mannered. As Jekyll becomes Hyde, when online you transform into something rather different.
Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by Burkie
Originally Posted by EssBrace
You made assumptions about my playing experience and piano ownership

Now we know for sure that you're on the turps!
I never made any such assumptions - please provide the source of your mistaken beliefs.


Originally Posted by Burkie
Originally Posted by EssBrace

Your point about key weighting changing when the damper pedal is pressed is valid of course insofar as it's technically a fact. But the reality - which you'd know if you had spent time on a grand piano - is that it has no detrimental or disconcerting effect whatsoever. One's brain just subliminally adjusts in a totally seamless and more or less instantaneous way.

That's false - your brain learns to work around the piano's physical flaw yes. But your brain has to learn to do that - that takes years of practise. That is not the same as 'subliminally adjusts' as you incorrectly purport!

You may have lots of experience playing grand pianos - that's why you've learned over the years to adjust to them. It's still a design flaw that is completely unnecessary and did in fact slow down your learning progress.


I'd say you were making assumptions about me here, wouldn't you? I've told you my experience about the use of the damper pedal and you have effectively told me I'm wrong. But that has been my experience. I don't in fact have "lots of experience" playing grand pianos. In another post you stated I "must have a cheap one" when referring to my piano. More assumptions. More unequivocal statements. All wrong of course.

I congratulate you on your apparent piano win. From your picture you look so unassuming and mild mannered. As Jekyll becomes Hyde, when online you transform into something rather different.


I have no bone in this fight, but both of you present your opinions as facts, and your snide remark about "which you'd know if you had spent time on a grand piano" is no less aggressive or uncalled for as anything in his post you just quoted, to put it mildly. Never mind the direct accusation of calling him a troll, as someone else did.

Not sure what the point of any of this is, his statement about the p515 didn't seem to warrant people here piling on him with supposed grievances from the past. Just my 2c.

Let's lighten up on the personal insults or this thread is done and some folks are going to get a vacation.
Originally Posted by Burkie
Originally Posted by AB99

It is unfortunate that I really like the Steinway sound the best - because it seems that there is not a "hybrid" out yet that has accomplished that.

I agree about VSL' steinway, btw.

Thank you very much!

You should also try the Casio GP-310 and GP-510 - they have a Steinway sample as their Hamburg setting.

The main drawback to those is their keys are a little bit slippery (and by little bit, I mean a lot!). But if your fingers don't sweat much then they should be fine.


I own the Casio GP-500 and feel the Steinway sound is not that good. The Bechstein sound is beautiful while the Steinway and Bösendorfer are lacking, IMO. Maybe I just haven’t created the right scene mode to make them really shine. But overall, I am VERY pleased with this instrument.
Originally Posted by Burkie
Originally Posted by EssBrace

Anyway, I'm sure I'm not alone in looking forward to seeing the pictures of you with your lovely Bechstein (the one you've won in that competition).

My pleasure:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/DDse1cNhy9j5U63u6


Congratulations Burkie! Why don’t you want to keep it? I’m about to purchase a Bechstein Concert 8. Wish I could just win one, lol.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Sometimes people forget why they purchase digital pianos. If a digital piano can fully recreate an acoustic piano then what’s the point? Just buy an acoustic. Digital pianos are to play quietly with headphones or to have a compact instrument. To mention just a few of the most popular reasons and there are many others. Personally I’m bound to digital pianos for exactly these two reasons. Once I’m not limited by space and neighbors you would see me running quicker than that Bolt guy towards the acoustic piano shop 😉

+1
Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by Burkie
Originally Posted by EssBrace
You made assumptions about my playing experience and piano ownership

Now we know for sure that you're on the turps!
I never made any such assumptions - please provide the source of your mistaken beliefs.


Originally Posted by Burkie
Originally Posted by EssBrace

Your point about key weighting changing when the damper pedal is pressed is valid of course insofar as it's technically a fact. But the reality - which you'd know if you had spent time on a grand piano - is that it has no detrimental or disconcerting effect whatsoever. One's brain just subliminally adjusts in a totally seamless and more or less instantaneous way.

That's false - your brain learns to work around the piano's physical flaw yes. But your brain has to learn to do that - that takes years of practise. That is not the same as 'subliminally adjusts' as you incorrectly purport!

You may have lots of experience playing grand pianos - that's why you've learned over the years to adjust to them. It's still a design flaw that is completely unnecessary and did in fact slow down your learning progress.


I'd say you were making assumptions about me here, wouldn't you?


You implied earlier that you did have experience playing grand pianos:
Originally Posted by EssBrace
I asked you how much experience you have of grand pianos. Of course I may be wrong but I'm guessing not much.

If you don't have lots of experience playing grand pianos then why would you make such snide comments?
Burkie, I have owned three grand pianos. I have played several more. I certainly feel comfortable saying that I have experience of playing grand pianos. However, in my opinion I do not have “lots of experience playing grand pianos”.

If you can read back through this thread and feel entirely happy with your own conduct and the way you have expressed yourself then carry on. But we are done here.
Steve is one of the long time posters here who has a wide experience with all digital pianos. He always speaks very clearly, and honestly about them at great length. He is one of the main posters here in this particular PW section whose opinions and expertise I highly value.

Burkie, I feel you should let this go and move on, you know ? wink
Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by Burkie
Originally Posted by EssBrace
You made assumptions about my playing experience and piano ownership

Now we know for sure that you're on the turps!
I never made any such assumptions - please provide the source of your mistaken beliefs.


Originally Posted by Burkie
Originally Posted by EssBrace

Your point about key weighting changing when the damper pedal is pressed is valid of course insofar as it's technically a fact. But the reality - which you'd know if you had spent time on a grand piano - is that it has no detrimental or disconcerting effect whatsoever. One's brain just subliminally adjusts in a totally seamless and more or less instantaneous way.

That's false - your brain learns to work around the piano's physical flaw yes. But your brain has to learn to do that - that takes years of practise. That is not the same as 'subliminally adjusts' as you incorrectly purport!

You may have lots of experience playing grand pianos - that's why you've learned over the years to adjust to them. It's still a design flaw that is completely unnecessary and did in fact slow down your learning progress.

I'd say you were making assumptions about me here, wouldn't you? .


And then you go on to write this:
Originally Posted by EssBrace
... you'd know if you had spent time on a grand piano - is that it has no detrimental or disconcerting effect whatsoeve.

Again, why would you make such rude, immature comments?
Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by Burkie
Originally Posted by EssBrace
You made assumptions about my playing experience and piano ownership

Now we know for sure that you're on the turps!
I never made any such assumptions - please provide the source of your mistaken beliefs.


Originally Posted by Burkie
Originally Posted by EssBrace

Your point about key weighting changing when the damper pedal is pressed is valid of course insofar as it's technically a fact. But the reality - which you'd know if you had spent time on a grand piano - is that it has no detrimental or disconcerting effect whatsoever. One's brain just subliminally adjusts in a totally seamless and more or less instantaneous way.

That's false - your brain learns to work around the piano's physical flaw yes. But your brain has to learn to do that - that takes years of practise. That is not the same as 'subliminally adjusts' as you incorrectly purport!

You may have lots of experience playing grand pianos - that's why you've learned over the years to adjust to them. It's still a design flaw that is completely unnecessary and did in fact slow down your learning progress.

In another post you stated I "must have a cheap one" when referring to my piano.

If you have an expensive/non-cheap acoustic piano then according to the staff at the Bechstein and Steinway stores I visited you should be looking after it by ensuring low humidity and reduced temperature fluctuations.

Now yes, that was an assumption that you would be doing that if you owned an expensive piano.

Obviously I was wrong - I am genuinely sorry for assuming you would be taking good care of your piano. May I politely suggest that you do start looking after it.

Note that I am more than happy to apologize when I am wrong. That's one thing that does distinguish me from many other people in this forum/world.
Originally Posted by EssBrace

If you can read back through this thread and feel entirely happy with your own conduct and the way you have expressed yourself then carry on. But we are done here.

I have already reread the entire thread.
I have also apologized to you for an incorrect assumption I did make.
I suggest that you please do likewise.

In summary, it seems the main gripe of both you and a couple of others is that I appear to 'present opinions as facts.'

However if you look at the opening post: they ask for opinions on what are the best digital pianos. Obviously everyone that replies will have differing opinions on the topic - there is no arbiter of the truth. So by claiming that someone is claiming their opinions are facts makes no sense whatsoever.

So given that, it is expected that all responses are just that: opinions.

Unless someone explicitly states 'this is a fact' or 'this is incontrovertibly true' then you are making a mistaken assumption that the author is not simply starting their opinion.

Regardless, you overreacted.
Originally Posted by Tenor1
Originally Posted by Burkie
Originally Posted by EssBrace

Anyway, I'm sure I'm not alone in looking forward to seeing the pictures of you with your lovely Bechstein (the one you've won in that competition).

My pleasure:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/DDse1cNhy9j5U63u6


Congratulations Burkie! Why don’t you want to keep it? I’m about to purchase a Bechstein Concert 8. Wish I could just win one, lol.

I would love to keep it. However right now on week nights I can only play after the kids go to sleep, as we live in a small place with the piano near their bedroom it would wake them up. Secondly I think we will need two new digital pianos as both of my daughters are interested in learning.
Originally Posted by sleutelbos

Not sure what the point of any of this is, his statement about the p515 didn't seem to warrant people here piling on him with supposed grievances from the past. Just my 2c.

Thanks sleutelbos, I appreciate your unbiased views.

Also I would like to reiterate why I'm here on this forum in the first place.

1. I plan on purchasing 1 or 2 digital pianos later this year for both myself and my younger daughters (4 and 8) to play on. This is why I personally am interested in key metrics (weightings, lengths, action friction, surface friction etc). I purchased professional piano key weights and built a key length measuring device using Arduino for this purpose. I also built a complete web search engine to search more than 80 online stores. If the technical information I contribute to this site doesn't interest you, then by all means please simply ignore my posts.

2. I have played piano for about 35 years and I have come to the conclusion that for me playing the piano provides the best form of stress reduction in existence. It is the only activity that can completely transport my mind away from the world and into a new one. I also studied undergraduate and graduate level psychology where I learnt that chronic stress (any stress lasting more than 1 day) causes the inhibition of Telomerase release in the brain. Telomerase repairs the ends of all of your chromosomes - and without it you are at much greater risk of ageing, cancer, heart disease, stroke, diabetes, and lower white blood cell count (a compromised immune system) amongst other serious conditions.

I hope this explains why I am passionate about pianos, and why I believe it is the best human invention in the past 300 years. Please keep these points in mind whenever you are reading one of my posts as I believe this will avoid any more shooting from the hip.


P.S. I also used to think that playing the piano has a calm soothing affect on people's personalities... I guess this forum crushed that dream smile
The OP's question has received at least a few on topic responses before this thread devolved into trolling and name calling so let's call it done.

Thread closed.
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