Piano World Home Page
Hello folks,

Here's some new product information that may be of interest:

Quote
Kawai Japan is delighted to announce the CA99 and CA79, the latest high-performance additions to the popular Concert Artist series of premium digital pianos, and successors to the highly regarded CA98 and CA78.

Read more...


Kawai Global website: CA99 product page
Kawai Global website: CA79 product page

Kind regards,
James
x
New Features & Improvements (compared to CA98/CA78)

CA99/CA79
- NEW: Grand Feel III wooden key keyboard action with Ivory & Ebony Touch key surfaces
- NEW: Updated LCD touchscreen UI with sister Piano Remote control app for iOS/Android
- NEW: Authentic new electric piano, organ, harpsichord, strings, and bass sounds
- NEW: Stunning contemporary upright piano cabinet design with Soft Fall fallboard system (CA99)
- IMPROVED: SK-EX Rendering sound engine with multi-channel piano sampling
- IMPROVED: Virtual Technician function with 21 adjustable parameters
- IMPROVED: Powerful speaker system with new 360° speaker diffuser panels
- IMPROVED: Integrated Bluetooth® MIDI and audio connectivity, with aptX support
- IMPROVED: Enhanced Touch Curve setting with 10 selectable touch presets
- IMPROVED: Updated cabinet design with rounded details and modern character (CA79)


Videos



very cool!
I bought a CA 98 just about 2 weeks ago as you know, however seeing that it's not a DRASTIC change (for me) I am super happy still with my purchase!

I am curious what the how different the GF3 will be compared to the GF2

@James: Does the CA 99 have the same speakers as the CA98 ?
Been waiting for you to post this since the videos showed up on YouTube lol. Pretty exciting! Can't wait to hear them in person someday
There's only the Brits looking in at this time 'o day, James! And they haven't really woke up yet . . .
Originally Posted by lovelovemale
I am curious what the how different the GF3 will be compared to the GF2


Please compare the two action images:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

The GFIII action offers the following changes/improvements over GFII:

- Revised hammer trigger mechanism, replacing the capstan screw and slip tape with an actuator
This is similar to the system introduced with the Grand Feel Compact action, and improves the responsiveness and consistency of the action.

- Revised hammer cushion structure
This is difficult to see in the reference image above, however the composition of the hammer cushion has been changed.
This results in a firmer key stop feeling, and also a slightly faster key return.

- Revised let-off construction
This is also a little difficult to see in the reference image above, however the let-off mechanism and structure has been improved.
This results in a more stable let-off feeling across the length of the keyboard.

There are various other tweaks and improvements to the action, however I believe these will be most noticeable to players.

I hope this helps.

Cheers,
James
x
http://www.euroconcert.fr/piano-numerique-kawai/796-kawai-ca-99.html

Le piano CA 99 de A à Z.
Will any of these UI improvements be available to the Novus NV10 with a firmware update?
Glad they fixed the soft bottoming of the keys in the GF3. It was the single biggest let down of the GF2.
Android version of the piano technician is welcome. Will the android version also work with the previous (current) generation of pianos that support the piano technician?
If you think about it, the CA99 is actually not the "real" successor of the C98, but instead is a "CS13", only with a different name.

In the CA65/95 generation, there were two matching CS models, that had the same tech as the CAs but with a different cabinet: The CS7 matched the CA65, the CS10 matched the CA95.

In the CA67/97 generation, we had the same pattern: The CS8 matched the CA67, the CS11 matched the CA97.

In the CA78/98 generation, there never was such a matching pair of CS models. There never were any CS models with the same tech as the CA78/98's, but with different cabinets (instead, you could get the CA78/98's themselves with a polished ebony finish). So essentially, there never were the corresponding CS9/CS12 models. But if there had been those models, then the CS12 would have had the tech of the CA98, only with a different cabinet.

Now comes the CA79/CA99 generation. And in that generation, there is no longer any room for the CS models. A CS11 successor that would have the same tech as the CA99 only with a different cabinet is pointless, because the CA99 already has this different cabinet itself! And a CS8 successor that has the same tech as the CA79 only with a PE cabinet, is also pointless, because the CA79 already is available with PE.

So essentially, the CA99 is, what the CS13 would have been, if the pattern from the CA65/95/CS7/10 and CA67/97/CS8/11 generations had been repeated in the CA78/98 and now the CA79/99 generations.

So you could say, that the CA99 actually is the CS13, i.e. the successor to a never released CS12.
And the CA98 itself does not have a direct successor.
You can find some more photos incl. GFIII here: http://www.euroconcert.fr/piano-numerique-kawai/1911-kawai-ca-79-piano-numerique.html?prevCat=129
GFIII looks almost the same as GFII - I've found 2 or three visual differences but obiously have no clue what is the impact.

The info at this French site has been available since yesterday before an official Kawai announcement smile

Looking forward to some non-Kawai-sponsored reviews!
I would be pissed off so hard if i had bought the CA-98 or CA-78 in the last 4 weeks. laugh
Originally Posted by Tyr
I would be pissed off so hard if i had bought the CA-98 or CA-78 in the last 4 weeks. laugh

Having just bought a CA78: Hardly. The highlight is the GFIII keys. The other upgrades are negligible.

I chose this DP specifically after trying several kawai's, rolands and yamahas in our store. It's key action is one of the major things that made me pick Kawai. That doesn't get invalidated because there are small mechanic differences in the new version.
Isn’t this generation a bit earlier than expected? Was it time already?

P.S. Well, seems expected. CA67/97 were released in June 2015. CA78/98 were released in October 2017. So it’s a steady cycle of 2 years and 3 months.
Would get one if it came apart into 2 main pieces in case you wanted to build it yourself or disassembled for any other reason... You're forced to have it in one large 80kg chunk! Because of that soundboard I'm guessing. What good is this if you buy online? They won't build it for you and deliver it in one piece many of them...
Originally Posted by mwf
Would get one if it came apart into 2 main pieces in case you wanted to build it yourself or disassembled for any other reason... You're forced to have it in one large 80kg chunk! Because of that soundboard I'm guessing. What good is this if you buy online? They won't build it for you and deliver it in one piece many of them...

I don’t understand what you mean with the last part? Of course you can order it online. And of course they won’t build it for you (if by „they“ you mean the seller). That’s because Kawai already built it in one piece in their factory. So of course the online shop will simply ship this big box from Kawai on to you, with the already assembled piano inside. That’s nothing, compared to shipping acoustic pianos.
Hello,

I really wanted to upgrade my CS11 to the CA99,

but looking at the manual of the CA99 (available in German here https://www.kawai.de/service/ca99_79.pdf , I can´t find the english version yet) the most important feature of a lot of Kawai e-pianos (at least for me) is missing now:
One can´t adjust the volume and voicing of individual keys.
This is possible on most other kawai models and of course on the CA98/97/68/78,NV10,NV5,MP11SE.. I used this feature very much to compensate for littte mechanical differences in midi values (propably unavoidable) between keys, room acoustics, properties of loudspeaker systems etc. This is very important for me and what a see from previous postings on former Kawai models a lot of other people used this feature also. This was (at least for me) the most important advantage of Kawai (besides the good action) with respect to Yamaha. Now its gone. Very sad.

What are you thinking? Am I missing something?

Daniel
Originally Posted by JoBert
If you think about it, the CA99 is actually not the "real" successor of the C98, but instead is a "CS13", only with a different name.

In the CA65/95 generation, there were two matching CS models, that had the same tech as the CAs but with a different cabinet: The CS7 matched the CA65, the CS10 matched the CA95.

In the CA67/97 generation, we had the same pattern: The CS8 matched the CA67, the CS11 matched the CA97.

In the CA78/98 generation, there never was such a matching pair of CS models. There never were any CS models with the same tech as the CA78/98's, but with different cabinets (instead, you could get the CA78/98's themselves with a polished ebony finish). So essentially, there never were the corresponding CS9/CS12 models. But if there had been those models, then the CS12 would have had the tech of the CA98, only with a different cabinet.

Now comes the CA79/CA99 generation. And in that generation, there is no longer any room for the CS models. A CS11 successor that would have the same tech as the CA99 only with a different cabinet is pointless, because the CA99 already has this different cabinet itself! And a CS8 successor that has the same tech as the CA79 only with a PE cabinet, is also pointless, because the CA79 already is available with PE.

So essentially, the CA99 is, what the CS13 would have been, if the pattern from the CA65/95/CS7/10 and CA67/97/CS8/11 generations had been repeated in the CA78/98 and now the CA79/99 generations.

So you could say, that the CA99 actually is the CS13, i.e. the successor to a never released CS12.
And the CA98 itself does not have a direct successor.

I guess the introduction of the NV5 reduced the need for the CS-line. I'm a little sad though that the CA 99 has an upright cabinet instead of the more traditional DP cabinet of the CA 98. I liked that Kawai had a top-of-the-line piano in a traditional cabinet. Looks aside, it's sometimes a more practical design as a "work bench" with the note stand in a proper height and a surface to put the laptop/screen on. I feel the same about the Yamaha CLP-685. I would love a 685 in a 675 cabinet.
This all looks very cool. Can't wait to try the new action!
Lots of blurb here:

https://www.bonnersmusic.co.uk/kawai-ca99-digital-piano-satin-black.ir
Any details on pricing yet? Wouldn't mind trading in my CA97. Wonder how much they'd give me for it?
Are there any samples of the new organ and harpsichord sounds available?
Originally Posted by Maartin
Any details on pricing yet? Wouldn't mind trading in my CA97. Wonder how much they'd give me for it?


My local dealer said prices for the 79 would be very close to what the 78 was. Might vary per region though, not sure.
Originally Posted by danielp11
Hello,

I really wanted to upgrade my CS11 to the CA99,

but looking at the manual of the CA99 (available in German here https://www.kawai.de/service/ca99_79.pdf , I can´t find the english version yet) the most important feature of a lot of Kawai e-pianos (at least for me) is missing now:
One can´t adjust the volume and voicing of individual keys.
This is possible on most other kawai models and of course on the CA98/97/68/78,NV10,NV5,MP11SE.. I used this feature very much to compensate for littte mechanical differences in midi values (propably unavoidable) between keys, room acoustics, properties of loudspeaker systems etc. This is very important for me and what a see from previous postings on former Kawai models a lot of other people used this feature also. This was (at least for me) the most important advantage of Kawai (besides the good action) with respect to Yamaha. Now its gone. Very sad.

What are you thinking? Am I missing something?

Daniel

Unless something has been left out by accident from the manual, I think you are right.

It seems that the "user voicing" and "user key volume" settings are no longer available (also the "user tuning" and "user temperament" settings, but the latter were only available in sound mode anyway).

Personally, I've made use of both. I used "user voicing" on the CA97 with the SK-EX sound to make the bass a little less mellow (but gradually, going down from C3).
But more importantly, I've used "user key volume" on the NV10, to reduce the volume of the tones in the uppermost octave, which are strangely loud compared to all other tones (but that may of course have been corrected in the sound engine already in the CAx9 models, so this special use case may no longer exist).

EDIT: BTW, the links to the manuals (English included) can be found at the bottom of the page that James linked to in the very first post of this thread.
Originally Posted by Kawai James
- Revised hammer cushion structure
This is difficult to see in the reference image above, however the composition of the hammer cushion has been changed.
This results in a firmer key stop feeling, and also a slightly faster key return.


YES!!!

Just what I've been saying all along - Kawai wooden actions bottom out into excessive squishiness. And now the Company acknowledges it. Very very nice to see some effort into addressing that rather un-piano-like behaviour. If the bottoming out has been properly firmed up then there is nothing left to dislike - they'll be the best DP actions available, without question.
Originally Posted by JoBert


But more importantly, I've used "user key volume" on the NV10, to reduce the volume of the tones in the uppermost octave, which are strangely loud compared to all other tones (but that may of course have been corrected in the sound engine already in the CAx9 models, so this special use case may no longer exist).


That would be the 'high damping' setting in the 'key volume' part of the VT menu.

Originally Posted by JoBert
I've made use of both. I used "user voicing" on the CA97 with the SK-EX sound to make the bass a little less mellow (but gradually, going down from C3).


I suspect that would be done to some extent via 'user settings' in the 'tone control'/EQ segment?
I wonder exactly what they mean for: "improved SK-EX Rendering multi-channel sound engine features enhanced acoustic piano samples". Why they had to improve the samples? What problem they had before? It would be nice to have an analytical comparison on a single note to let the user see and hear these improvements, being that when a good player plays these DPs usually you don't hear differences, even when there are.

I wonder if they improved the polyphony capabilities in Pianist mode or the stealing notes algorithm when max polyphony is reached, being that some users noticed some little problems in this area with previous models.

I noticed they added 2 new nice features that I would like to have in the Virtual Technician: the Hammer Noise and the Release Time. These 2, if well implemented, could impact heavily on the user's ability to change the character of the piano sound.

I like very much the new cover lid for the keyboard in the CA99. It's much more "acoustic-piano" looking.

I noticed, FINALLY they added some support for Android users... I hope Kawai extends this support to old models too (but I doubt it).

P.S.: I think in the next weeks great deals can be made on previous models (CA78/98)!
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
Originally Posted by JoBert


But more importantly, I've used "user key volume" on the NV10, to reduce the volume of the tones in the uppermost octave, which are strangely loud compared to all other tones (but that may of course have been corrected in the sound engine already in the CAx9 models, so this special use case may no longer exist).


That would be the 'high damping' setting in the 'key volume' part of the VT menu.

Unfortunately not. The "high damping" is available now too, but is not good enough. On the one hand, it damps more than just the uppermost octave, on the other hand, it doesn't damp that octave enough. Also with the key-by-key adjustment I've made now, I've made gradual adjustments (the volume reduction is increased gradually from lower to higher keys in that octave).

Originally Posted by sleutelbos
Originally Posted by JoBert
I've made use of both. I used "user voicing" on the CA97 with the SK-EX sound to make the bass a little less mellow (but gradually, going down from C3).


I suspect that would be done to some extent via 'user settings' in the 'tone control'/EQ segment?

Again, that is something different. What you do with the voicing is, that you essentially shift the sampling layers with respect to the MIDI velocities. Which gives you a (very slightly) different timbre for the same MIDI velocity. That is different than just EQ-ing the sound.
Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
Originally Posted by JoBert


But more importantly, I've used "user key volume" on the NV10, to reduce the volume of the tones in the uppermost octave, which are strangely loud compared to all other tones (but that may of course have been corrected in the sound engine already in the CAx9 models, so this special use case may no longer exist).


That would be the 'high damping' setting in the 'key volume' part of the VT menu.

Unfortunately not. The "high damping" is available now too, but is not good enough. On the one hand, it damps more than just the uppermost octave, on the other hand, it doesn't damp that octave enough. Also with the key-by-key adjustment I've made now, I've made gradual adjustments (the volume reduction is increased gradually from lower to higher keys in that octave).

Originally Posted by sleutelbos
Originally Posted by JoBert
I've made use of both. I used "user voicing" on the CA97 with the SK-EX sound to make the bass a little less mellow (but gradually, going down from C3).


I suspect that would be done to some extent via 'user settings' in the 'tone control'/EQ segment?

Again, that is something different. What you do with the voicing is, that you essentially shift the sampling layers with respect to the MIDI velocities. Which gives you a (very slightly) different timbre for the same MIDI velocity. That is different than just EQ-ing the sound.


Ah, I see. Thanks for the explanation!
Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
Originally Posted by JoBert


But more importantly, I've used "user key volume" on the NV10, to reduce the volume of the tones in the uppermost octave, which are strangely loud compared to all other tones (but that may of course have been corrected in the sound engine already in the CAx9 models, so this special use case may no longer exist).


That would be the 'high damping' setting in the 'key volume' part of the VT menu.

Unfortunately not. The "high damping" is available now too, but is not good enough. On the one hand, it damps more than just the uppermost octave, on the other hand, it doesn't damp that octave enough. Also with the key-by-key adjustment I've made now, I've made gradual adjustments (the volume reduction is increased gradually from lower to higher keys in that octave).

Originally Posted by sleutelbos
Originally Posted by JoBert
I've made use of both. I used "user voicing" on the CA97 with the SK-EX sound to make the bass a little less mellow (but gradually, going down from C3).


I suspect that would be done to some extent via 'user settings' in the 'tone control'/EQ segment?

Again, that is something different. What you do with the voicing is, that you essentially shift the sampling layers with respect to the MIDI velocities. Which gives you a (very slightly) different timbre for the same MIDI velocity. That is different than just EQ-ing the sound.


Hello

I have tried a lot of GF II Actions besides mine (in stores and with friends) and they all where not very consistent (slightly louder or softer notes sticking out, different ones on each different GF II action). This was never a real problem because you could adjust for this with individual key volume and voicing settings. A lot of forum members experienced the same. But now it is a problem. Maybe the new construction of the GF III is so much better to avoid any mechanical tolerance, but I doubt it. Yamaha has the same problem (to a lesser extent).

What are your opinions?

Daniel
Some hi-res shots:

www.kawai.de/media/pix/ca79/
www.kawai.de/media/pix/ca99/
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Isn’t this generation a bit earlier than expected? Was it time already?

P.S. Well, seems expected. CA67/97 were released in June 2015. CA78/98 were released in October 2017. So it’s a steady cycle of 2 years and 3 months.

It's called "Planned obsolescence".
Originally Posted by bluebilly
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Isn’t this generation a bit earlier than expected? Was it time already?

P.S. Well, seems expected. CA67/97 were released in June 2015. CA78/98 were released in October 2017. So it’s a steady cycle of 2 years and 3 months.

It's called "Planned obsolescence".


Not sure I agree. That applies more to such things as smartphones, which are designed to perform progressively worse as time goes on. A ca78 is still every bit as useful an instrument now as it was yesterday. A hammer doesn't become obsolete when a fancier hammer is announced either.
I think these new cabinets look SO much better than all the other smaller ones, would be a huge factor for me.
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Hello folks,

Here's some new product information that may be of interest:

Quote
Kawai Japan is delighted to announce the CA99 and CA79, the latest high-performance additions to the popular Concert Artist series of premium digital pianos, and successors to the highly regarded CA98 and CA78.

Read more...


Kawai Global website: CA99 product page
Kawai Global website: CA79 product page

Kind regards,
James
x


I can't understand why Kawaii don't launch them in format of a grandpiano,
Instead of an upright piano. It would be outstanding and beautiful black finish.
Originally Posted by dihelson
I can't understand why Kawaii don't launch them in format of a grandpiano,
Instead of an upright piano. It would be outstanding and beautiful black finish.

You mean with the case filled with larger speakers? Or do you mean with a mostly empty grand piano case, just for show?
Originally Posted by U3piano
I think these new cabinets look SO much better than all the other smaller ones, would be a huge factor for me.

Not really a fan of the CA99 design, something about it looks cheap to me (mainly the keylid , what’s up with those visible screws on the left edge). I like the CA79 (or the older 98/78s) much more. I guess it’s just personal preference. I’m sure they are great pianos though, really looking forward to the first reviews.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Glad they fixed the soft bottoming of the keys in the GF3. It was the single biggest let down of the GF2.


+1
Originally Posted by Pete14
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Glad they fixed the soft bottoming of the keys in the GF3. It was the single biggest let down of the GF2.


+1


Well, we have to see what the actual effect of the change is, of course. A bit early to assume they 'fixed, it. smile
Has the management of favorites changed with the UI update?
Isn;t the sound much brighter vs previous model based on the video? It seems so to me!
On paper there seems to be little difference between the CA99 and CA98. But paper says little and hides much. I guess we'll have to wait until these show up in the shops.

I'll applaud the redesign of the capstans. The so-called "slip tape" was a common source of problems and triggered much discussion here.
The "slip wedges" on the Yamahas are designed much better. They don't seem to wear or give way or fall off. But they still require periodic lubrication.

It seems Kawai has replaced capstan with something that looks like a plastic end-cap. It seems incapable of falling off.
And if it's nylon or similar (fingers crossed) it might never need lubrication.
Is it only me who thinks the resonance modeling is too much like a reverb rather than real sympathetic resonance? I noticed that on the CA78 I tested. For the very first time I thought the reverb was too high and switched it off but it turned out it was damper resonance that sounded just like a reverb. I have forgotten about that, but listening now to the CA99 demos through good headphones and on the slower piano pieces, I notice there's something like too much reverb but at the end of phrases it's cut off which makes me think it's again that resonance modeling. Have you noticed something like that?
Hi

I am a happy owner of a less than one year old CA78.

This forum has brought up an issue with pads falling off backs of keys.

This is the statement (along with trying the GFII - which I loved ) that made me buy one.
"The CA78 digital piano utilises Kawai’s latest Grand Feel II wooden-key keyboard action, which draws upon 90 years of acoustic piano craftsmanship"

I am covered by a 5 yr warranty.

That aside, does this mean, that I am on a sitting time bomb of issues along the way.
If Kawai have a known issue and sold me the piano knowing this, does this allow me to try and update the issue under warranty, with any improvements?

I would be very interested in peoples thoughts.

There will be the camp of people saying 'you paid for todays technology so shouldn't expect upgrading with new' but equally I paid a very
large amount of money based on at least having some confidence I was being sold something with longevity and certainly not with 'known' issues.
A bit like car manufacturer recalls, If the new ends of the GFIII solve the pad issue and are interchangeable with GFII (a big assumption) then it wouldn't be too unrealistic or too high an expectation to get the ends replaced seeing as the piano is only 8-10 months old?
Originally Posted by Bobetski
Hi

I am a happy owner of a less than one year old CA78.

This forum has brought up an issue with pads falling off backs of keys.

This is the statement (along with trying the GFII - which I loved ) that made me buy one.
"The CA78 digital piano utilises Kawai’s latest Grand Feel II wooden-key keyboard action, which draws upon 90 years of acoustic piano craftsmanship"

I am covered by a 5 yr warranty.

That aside, does this mean, that I am on a sitting time bomb of issues along the way.
If Kawai have a known issue and sold me the piano knowing this, does this allow me to try and update the issue under warranty, with any improvements?

I would be very interested in peoples thoughts.

There will be the camp of people saying 'you paid for todays technology so shouldn't expect upgrading with new' but equally I paid a very
large amount of money based on at least having some confidence I was being sold something with longevity and certainly not with 'known' issues.
A bit like car manufacturer recalls, If the new ends of the GFIII solve the pad issue and are interchangeable with GFII (a big assumption) then it wouldn't be too unrealistic or too high an expectation to get the ends replaced seeing as the piano is only 8-10 months old?






That would depend on where you live as far as legal rights are concerned. In the EU consumer products have to meet certain standards and are expected to last a reasonable period without defects. A digital piano (or fridge, washing machine et cetera), to my knowledge, cannot be reasonably demanded to last flawlessly for more than five years (IIRC it is a 'mere' two years). The warranty would be considered quite generous.

A known issue in this context would be an issue that prevents the device from surviving the reasonable period,which doesn't seem the issue here given the warranty. As a consequence the mere fact that a new product might be even more durable would not entitle someone with an earlier version an upgrade.

You could discuss this with your store though. One store near me offers the ability to upgrade your purchase to a more expensive piano within a year of purchase as long as you pay the difference and the difference exceeds at least one Euro. In this case you would be allowed to swap the CA78 for a new CA79 for a very small sum. This is of course a service, not a right, but you can see what your store can do for you!
Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by mwf
Would get one if it came apart into 2 main pieces in case you wanted to build it yourself or disassembled for any other reason... You're forced to have it in one large 80kg chunk! Because of that soundboard I'm guessing. What good is this if you buy online? They won't build it for you and deliver it in one piece many of them...

I don’t understand what you mean with the last part? Of course you can order it online. And of course they won’t build it for you (if by „they“ you mean the seller). That’s because Kawai already built it in one piece in their factory. So of course the online shop will simply ship this big box from Kawai on to you, with the already assembled piano inside. That’s nothing, compared to shipping acoustic pianos.


Who's going to unload the 80kg+ box and bring it in to my house, it needs piano delivery men, professionals with insurance etc.. Can standard delivery men do it? Doubt it. You can't sell it or return it either if not happy once it's stuck in your house...
Originally Posted by mwf
Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by mwf
Would get one if it came apart into 2 main pieces in case you wanted to build it yourself or disassembled for any other reason... You're forced to have it in one large 80kg chunk! Because of that soundboard I'm guessing. What good is this if you buy online? They won't build it for you and deliver it in one piece many of them...

I don’t understand what you mean with the last part? Of course you can order it online. And of course they won’t build it for you (if by „they“ you mean the seller). That’s because Kawai already built it in one piece in their factory. So of course the online shop will simply ship this big box from Kawai on to you, with the already assembled piano inside. That’s nothing, compared to shipping acoustic pianos.


Who's going to unload the 80kg+ box and bring it in to my house, it needs piano delivery men, professionals with insurance etc.. Can standard delivery men do it? Doubt it. You can't sell it or return it either if not happy once it's stuck in your house...


I know someone who bought an actual acoustic piano at Thomann and had it shipped to Poland. Wasn't satisfied and had them come pick it up again. Megastores like that know how to get such stuff to your house no problem.
I had a NU1X bought from Thomann that I returned. It's an entire piano with no assembly needed. It comes on top of a wooden pallet, covered with a bit of cardboard and secured to the pallet through plastic bands. I had to hire movers between the building entrance and my apartment and to help with unpacking and then packing it again but other than that the Thomann shippers got everything else from there on.
Originally Posted by mwf
Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by mwf
Would get one if it came apart into 2 main pieces in case you wanted to build it yourself or disassembled for any other reason... You're forced to have it in one large 80kg chunk! Because of that soundboard I'm guessing. What good is this if you buy online? They won't build it for you and deliver it in one piece many of them...

I don’t understand what you mean with the last part? Of course you can order it online. And of course they won’t build it for you (if by „they“ you mean the seller). That’s because Kawai already built it in one piece in their factory. So of course the online shop will simply ship this big box from Kawai on to you, with the already assembled piano inside. That’s nothing, compared to shipping acoustic pianos.


Who's going to unload the 80kg+ box and bring it in to my house, it needs piano delivery men, professionals with insurance etc..

Yes, that's what happens when you buy a piano. You'll likely need help to move it around. The online seller won't send it to you with DHL, but likely with a specialized shipping firm. It has always been like this for acoustic pianos. It's not a surprise that it is the same for digital pianos that use certain hardware features of acoustics (like a soundboard, or a real acoustic action) and therefore start to approach acoustics in bulk and weight (although they are still a good way off in that regard).

Originally Posted by mwf
You can't sell it or return it either if not happy once it's stuck in your house...

Of course you can sell it. I sold my CA97. The buyer contracted piano movers to get it from my place.
And of course you can return it if there is a problem. CyberGene did so with his NU1X (which comes as a single unit too, iirc, and weights 111kg). (EDIT: I see that CyberGene confirmed this in a post while I was writing mine.)
Contrary to what you seem to believe, lots of people have handled this without problems.
I don't think I like the new design of CA79 (I don't even consider CA99 since I categorically do not accept any upright design, which for me will always have some objective disadvantages). Mainly due to the "fallboard" area behind the keys. I wrote about this several times before.

CA78:
[Linked Image]

CA79:
[Linked Image]

In CA79 the "fallboard" area behind the keys no longer looks so monolithic and acoustic-like as on CA78, CA67 etc. This design advantage has been present in Kawai cabinet pianos for many years, in models of different generations. And in new model, for me personally, one of these advantages has been lost.

Regarding the new Grand Feel III action.
Glad they fixed the "slip-tape" problem of GF1/2 actions. It was the biggest objective issue of those actions. And this is exactly what I wrote about here.

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I'll applaud the redesign of the capstans. The so-called "slip tape" was a common source of problems and triggered much discussion here. […] It seems Kawai has replaced capstan with something that looks like a plastic end-cap. It seems incapable of falling off.

Exactly. Reliability is №1 matter.
I wonder if a Fazioli thread would get this much attention. The beginning of the end? grin
Originally Posted by Pete14
I wonder if a Fazioli thread would get this much attention. The beginning of the end? grin


If it costs €3000? Sure! :P
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Is it only me who thinks the resonance modeling is too much like a reverb rather than real sympathetic resonance? I noticed that on the CA78 I tested. For the very first time I thought the reverb was too high and switched it off but it turned out it was damper resonance that sounded just like a reverb. I have forgotten about that, but listening now to the CA99 demos through good headphones and on the slower piano pieces, I notice there's something like too much reverb but at the end of phrases it's cut off which makes me think it's again that resonance modeling. Have you noticed something like that?
IMHO, all digital pianos use a type of reverb to emulate damper resonances. I think it's just a convolution reverb with an impulse response sampled from the vibration of all the strings inside an acoustic piano. To "simulate", instead of "emulate" the effect, you should make all the virtual strings resonate (with certain parameters different from a normal note playing) every time you play a single note with the sustain pedal depressed. That would require a computational power that I don't think our current DPs have, because it would be like playing 88 notes each time you play a single note.
I think even Pianoteq uses convolution reverb to simulate most of the resonances. Probably, the only resonance that doesn't use convolution is the sympathetic resonance, because it's implemented by playing another note (you notice it, because for each sympathetic note played, the polyphony counter decreases). If damper resonance implementation worked like the sympathetic resonance implementation, you should see the polyphony counter decrease of 88 for each single note played with sustain pedal depressed... The max polyphony would be reached after playing a single chord!
A few things I noticed skimming the CA99 manual...
  • It looks like transpose/tuning can be edited with SK-EX Rendering, something not possible previously.
  • More touch curves have been added - four lights and four heavies (as opposed to two each). I found the older UI didn't have enough gradations.
  • I didn't see anything about global setting persistence or editing favorites (pain points in the previous UI).
There seems to be relatively little new in the CA99 ... so I think it might soon be a good time to make a lowball offer on a CA98 while they last.
The announcement mentions
“The latest Concert Artist instruments adopt a new communication system, allowing all functions of the piano to also be controlled via a dedicated app for iOS and Android, with settings and adjustments recalled automatically every time the instrument is powered on.”
Looks like settings are saved automatically.

I thought I had written a comment here, but no. I don't know why
Kawaii don't launch these pianos on a grandpiano format, like Roland.
Also wonder if a UI update would be available on the CA 78 / 98 ?
I mean it would be really possible but I guess the new UI is also one of the selling points of the new 79 and 99.

I also don't understand why you see the screws on the left holding the key cover on the CA 99. For this price tag, which will be similar to the 99 those screws should not be visible :-O

I got a CA 98 just 2 weeks ago, however I kinda new that NAMM is showing up and my dealer really wanted to clear the remaining two 98s he had and apparently not everybody is in the market for it (Kawai prices are much more expensive in the U.S. than in Europe e.g. Germany). So we negotiated a pretty sweet deal (I believe based on all the prices I have seen for the CA 98 at least here in the U.S.)

Just thought it would be cool that the UI could be updated, I mean I am sure it's possible if Kawai wanted to...
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
There seems to be relatively little new in the CA99 ... so I think it might soon be a good time to make a lowball offer on a CA98 while they last.


correct! smile

It's my third post here and I can't see it published
Originally Posted by dihelson

It's my third post here and I can't see it published


I can see them all...
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
Originally Posted by dihelson

It's my third post here and I can't see it published


I can see them all...


Thanks for the feedback, Sleutelbos. Why Kawaii don't launch
Some "grandpianos" based on these new models ? Why only upright ?
Originally Posted by lovelovemale
I also don't understand why you see the screws on the left holding the key cover on the CA 99. For this price tag, which will be similar to the 99 those screws should not be visible :-O

Exactly the detail I meant when I said it looks cheap. It’s probably there to make the keylid more robust, but for that price tag a top of the line model should never look like that in my opinion. Surely there must be a way to hide them or design a more appealing solution. The white version especially has a black plate and screws... I don’t know, the upright design is just not pretty, while I like the CA79 a lot.
Originally Posted by lovelovemale
Also wonder if a UI update would be available on the CA 78 / 98 ?
I mean it would be really possible but I guess the new UI is also one of the selling points of the new 79 and 99.

It's as "possible" as a "tone update" is possible for the previous models. If you want that, that's what the VSTi route is for.
Originally Posted by Maartin
Any details on pricing yet? Wouldn't mind trading in my CA97. Wonder how much they'd give me for it?


after

Originally Posted by Maartin


This second link has a price in UK Pounds

I was in Bonners today talking to the David in Reigate (I bought a Grand Piano). He said they had it on the web site ready to go at Midnight. Tony (the guy who does most of the videos) is in NAMM and David (the guy on a lot of the acoustic videos) expected to see a video from him shortly.
Prices are still RRP for now. Gear4music is listing them in pre order at 2600 and 3400 GBP for CA79 and CA99.
Seems like the USER voicing for volume and keys in the virtual technician is not available in the new models anymore.
Here is a side by side comparison from the kawai global page:

Kawai CA98 vs CA99 comparison chart

The progression from my CA63 CA95 CA67 to the CAx9 Series. The new GF III seems to have addressed so many items. Whether it is the sample picture primping or maybe, the keys are all uniform across all 88, the PFE tape that was so problematic is gone and so many other small refinements, one wonders where this can go for the GF IV version.

Still enjoy my CA67. Will be some time before I need more. Altho, the soundboard and tactile feedback thru the keys, I kinda miss.
Has there been any mention of a CA48 upgrade or similar priced piano announced? As I'm about to purchase one and wouldn't want to get it if there's a new one coming shortly.
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Is it only me who thinks the resonance modeling is too much like a reverb rather than real sympathetic resonance? I noticed that on the CA78 I tested. For the very first time I thought the reverb was too high and switched it off but it turned out it was damper resonance that sounded just like a reverb. I have forgotten about that, but listening now to the CA99 demos through good headphones and on the slower piano pieces, I notice there's something like too much reverb but at the end of phrases it's cut off which makes me think it's again that resonance modeling. Have you noticed something like that?
IMHO, all digital pianos use a type of reverb to emulate damper resonances. I think it's just a convolution reverb with an impulse response sampled from the vibration of all the strings inside an acoustic piano. To "simulate", instead of "emulate" the effect, you should make all the virtual strings resonate (with certain parameters different from a normal note playing) every time you play a single note with the sustain pedal depressed. That would require a computational power that I don't think our current DPs have, because it would be like playing 88 notes each time you play a single note.
I think even Pianoteq uses convolution reverb to simulate most of the resonances. Probably, the only resonance that doesn't use convolution is the sympathetic resonance, because it's implemented by playing another note (you notice it, because for each sympathetic note played, the polyphony counter decreases). If damper resonance implementation worked like the sympathetic resonance implementation, you should see the polyphony counter decrease of 88 for each single note played with sustain pedal depressed... The max polyphony would be reached after playing a single chord!

Well, I’m not sure I agree (or disagree). Many years ago digital pianos either used damper down samples or a reverbey effect, as you say. For instance my RD-700SX had a very unconvincing reverb-type of damper pedal resonance. However the modeled resonances in Pianoteq are extremely realistic and it’s the only thing that I really like in it. Similarly, the modeled resonances in the latest Yamaha are comparable and don’t sound like reverb at all. I don’t have a lot of experience with the Kawai modeled resonances to be 100% certain they are lacking and not that realistic which is why I’m asking but my limited impression is that they are rather close to those reverby type of effects from the past than a realistic piano resonances. But maybe it’s a matter of settings?
I don't have a Yamaha DP to compare to, but I think that a convolution filter with a long impulse response can work miracles. The length of the impulse response greatly affects the quality of the effect (but greater length for the impulse response means that the convolution requires more computational power for real-time sound rendering).
It also looks like the internal recorder on the new models records MIDI data for the SK-EX renderer, removing some of the limitations of the recorder in previous models' Pianist mode. I suspect this also means notes triggered via MIDI input will have resonance modeled for them (unlike the previous Pianist mode).
Originally Posted by lovelovemale
Seems like the USER voicing for volume and keys in the virtual technician is not available in the new models anymore.
Here is a side by side comparison from the kawai global page:

Kawai CA98 vs CA99 comparison chart



Curiously enough they also mention they improved the 'consistency' of the action; wonder if these are related...
Quote
Kawai’s redesigned communication standard allows this new user interface to also be accessed as an app for iOS and supported Android devices, with all settings and adjustments recalled automatically every time the instrument is powered on.


It's amazing and wonderful how this update seems to directly address so many pain points brought up on PW...
1. Are there any images/videos of the new UI? I also wonder if it would be possible to flash the new UI onto existing hardware (or swap the hardware out). It sounds like the "redesigned communication standard" may make this a no-go though. I'd pay for some faster hardware (the current touchscreen is a bit laggy).

2. Can we see and edit the contents of Favorites now? Fingers crossed smile

3. GF3's change from capstan/sliptape to plastic cap is a welcome (and expected change). Making the keybed less "mushy" is also a great change, I can't wait to give it a try.

4. One thing I felt is missing - no USB audio interface. That would be a great for minimizing cables and reducing noise/ground loops for audio-in.

5. Another I was hoping for - native multichannel output, though if/when it does happen, perhaps it will be exclusively for the Novus line...
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Another I was hoping for - native multichannel output, though if/when it does happen, perhaps it will be exclusively for the Novus line...


You mean the six channels in the piano sound? Out of curiosity, would you want that for experimental sound design (I can see many uses there!) or more conventional piano recordings (I am too stupid to understand the advantage)?
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Are there any images/videos of the new UI?

There are screenshots in the manual.
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Another I was hoping for - native multichannel output, though if/when it does happen, perhaps it will be exclusively for the Novus line...


You mean the six channels in the piano sound? Out of curiosity, would you want that for experimental sound design (I can see many uses there!) or more conventional piano recordings (I am too stupid to understand the advantage)?


It would be for added realism during playing. I don't know how many channels there are, but "multi-channel" suggests it's more than stereo smile

Yamaha has 4-channel sampling for its AvantGrand pianos, and each speaker plays back samples taken from the mic for its respective channel. On its current DPs, Kawai mixes down the multi-channel samples and outputs these to stereo speakers. I assume it would be an upgrade to have native multi-channel output to speakers positioned to take advantage of it.
Originally Posted by Zack C
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Are there any images/videos of the new UI?

There are screenshots in the manual.


The different UX just seems to be a sideways move from the previous version (not an obvious improvement), but the new features are kind of cool, such as the VT presets.
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Another I was hoping for - native multichannel output, though if/when it does happen, perhaps it will be exclusively for the Novus line...


You mean the six channels in the piano sound? Out of curiosity, would you want that for experimental sound design (I can see many uses there!) or more conventional piano recordings (I am too stupid to understand the advantage)?


It would be for added realism during playing. I don't know how many channels there are, but "multi-channel" suggests it's more than stereo smile

Yamaha has 4-channel sampling for its AvantGrand pianos, and each speaker plays back samples taken from the mic for its respective channel. On its current DPs, Kawai mixes down the multi-channel samples and outputs these to stereo speakers. I assume it would be an upgrade to have native multi-channel output to speakers positioned to take advantage of it.


The Ca78/98/79/99 are six-channel, and feature six speakers.I can't prove it but I suspect that is not by accident. wink I was thinking you were talking multi-channel USB output for post-processing, but if you refer to the internal speaker output I assume that the speakers are linked to the channels.

Actually giving me these channels in my DAW would be golden though (multi-channel spectral panning to individual busses FTW!)!
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Hello folks,

Here's some new product information that may be of interest:

Quote
Kawai Japan is delighted to announce the CA99 and CA79, the latest high-performance additions to the popular Concert Artist series of premium digital pianos, and successors to the highly regarded CA98 and CA78.

Read more...


Kawai Global website: CA99 product page
Kawai Global website: CA79 product page

Kind regards,
James
x

Thank you kind sir.
This certainly makes Kawai a strong contender in the $3k-$4k price range.
Another good reason to consider Kawai is the excellent customer service you provide here on the forum smile
Other manufacturers should take a leaf out of your book - keep up the good work.
I don't think the so-called multi-channel has real meaning, especially near fied for this type of compact upright style DP. It's not AV system for distant listening.
I've tried multichannel effect with buit-in sound on my friend's N1X , which is not nearly as extensive as the sound field generated by my CA98.
Instead, the sound produced by the soundboard speakers and the secondary reflections will fill the room.
That's what the soundboard of the acoustic piano does.
Quote
Classic A standard grand piano sound with a broad dynamic range.
Classic2 A Lustrous and brilliant grand piano sound.
Romantic A mellow grand piano sound with soft hammers.
Full A big grand piano sound with a strong bass and bright character.
Jazz A clean grand piano sound that is suitable for jazz.
Brilliant A bright grand piano sound with emphasised treble.
Rich A rich grand piano sound with emphasised resonances.
Ballad A clear, light grand piano sound that is suitable for ballads.
Vintage A soft grand piano sound with a vintage character.
Boogie A small grand piano with a detuned character.

Another find here... There's now a Classic2 variation for the SK-EX engine. Novus NV10 only has the "classic" Classic, not Classic2.

However, the Novus NV10 has Pop which is not here.

Quote
Pop A strong grand piano sound with emphasised attack that is suitable for pop music.


Classic2 sounds like it might be an enhanced version of Pop, perhaps a Yamaha-compete thing? smile
Originally Posted by robinlb
I don't think the so-called multi-channel has real meaning, especially near fied for this type of compact upright style DP. It's not AV system for distant listening.
I've tried multichannel effect with buit-in sound on my friend's N1X , which is not nearly as extensive as the sound field generated by my CA98.


I also agree it's probably not a huge deal with these low profile consoles with very little depth. Since the mic positions are on a 9ft grand, the speakers should really be placed in the same position and distance. Even the N3X with its baby grand profile may not really make the most of it. To tell the truth, I just like the idea of it, and the notion of having multichannel line-out where you can position your own monitors!
What exactly do they mean when they say the new GF III action is a firmer action ? I don’t think I would like it to be firmer. Faster and lighter, yes.

DICTIONARY
firm
adjective
1.
having a solid, almost unyielding surface or structure.
"the bed should be reasonably firm, but not too hard"
Originally Posted by rintincop
What exactly do they mean when they say the new GF III action is a firmer action ?

I guess they mean the following, as explained by James further up in this thread:

Originally Posted by Kawai James
- Revised hammer cushion structure
This is difficult to see in the reference image above, however the composition of the hammer cushion has been changed.
This results in a firmer key stop feeling, and also a slightly faster key return.
Originally Posted by rintincop
What exactly do they mean when they say the new GF III action is a firmer action


You know how the GF2 can feel sort of spongy when it bottoms out at the bottom of the keystroke? The GF3 doesn't feel spongy.
We still don’t know to what (terminal) degree this sponginess is removed though wink
Assume some of the members posting on this forum would have the chance to "touch" any of these during NAMM show and post a quick review.
The improvements to the action would certainly seem to vindicate the criticisms on this forum about the GFII action. I wonder to what extent they have rewritten the software?
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by robinlb
I don't think the so-called multi-channel has real meaning, especially near fied for this type of compact upright style DP. It's not AV system for distant listening.
I've tried multichannel effect with buit-in sound on my friend's N1X , which is not nearly as extensive as the sound field generated by my CA98.


I also agree it's probably not a huge deal with these low profile consoles with very little depth. Since the mic positions are on a 9ft grand, the speakers should really be placed in the same position and distance. Even the N3X with its baby grand profile may not really make the most of it. To tell the truth, I just like the idea of it, and the notion of having multichannel line-out where you can position your own monitors!


Would it it be as much or more about width than depth?
Originally Posted by sleutelbos

Would it it be as much or more about width than depth?


Depth (or rather, length in terms of acoustic grands). Digitals are just as wide as acoustics (88 keys plus cheek blocks). The multi-channel recording mics are usually placed along the length of the grand to capture the sound at different points along the soundboard. Regular stereo recording already captures along the width.
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by sleutelbos

Would it it be as much or more about width than depth?


Depth (or rather, length in terms of acoustic grands). Digitals are just as wide as acoustics (88 keys plus cheek blocks). The multi-channel recording mics are usually placed along the length of the grand to capture the sound at different points along the soundboard. Regular stereo recording already captures along the width.


Not saying you are wrong, but I am slow in the head. smile This is Kawai's pic:
[Linked Image]

If you would put the CA79 in a grand piano body, and put speakers at the places of the mics, it would appear puzzling to me. After all, those mics are there not because the sound originates at those locations (which is what would happen if you put speakers there). When you have x-number of speakers spread horizontally, feeding them stereo-recorded sounds would not be the same as feeding them different recordings per speaker: the sound a mic placed at the center (horizontally) captures would not sound identical to the average of two mics placed left and right, no?

To be clear again: just trying to understand what you say! smile
Originally Posted by Gombessa

I also agree it's probably not a huge deal with these low profile consoles with very little depth. Since the mic positions are on a 9ft grand, the speakers should really be placed in the same position and distance. Even the N3X with its baby grand profile may not really make the most of it. To tell the truth, I just like the idea of it, and the notion of having multichannel line-out where you can position your own monitors!


Yes, agree.
If we want to really experience the effects of multichannel, we should at least use the corresponding audio interface(multichannel too), DAW software, and a true multichannel VSTs (like VSL). And properly connect and place multiple monitors around player.
A typical example is in VSL Mendl demo video, where they connect five ADAM S3H monitors and 1~2 subwoofers under the tablle, and constitute a complete 5.1channel DP playback system.
Trying to achieve effective multichannel sound in a compact upright DP body is only a gimmick.
If I owned a piano this big ... it would have no speakers. It would be an acoustic grand.
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
[Linked Image]
I heard samples on youtube, man it sounds beautiful! and i love the look of the ca99
[
Originally Posted by sleutelbos

If you would put the CA79 in a grand piano body, and put speakers at the places of the mics, it would appear puzzling to me. After all, those mics are there not because the sound originates at those locations (which is what would happen if you put speakers there). When you have x-number of speakers spread horizontally, feeding them stereo-recorded sounds would not be the same as feeding them different recordings per speaker: the sound a mic placed at the center (horizontally) captures would not sound identical to the average of two mics placed left and right, no?

To be clear again: just trying to understand what you say! smile


On a grand piano, the sound originates from the entire surface area of the soundboard (and also from the strings, is affected by the rim, etc. depending on where you capture the sound). Mics placed at different positions along the length of the piano capture different sounds. The ones in back (to the left in your picture) capture more of the bass notes, the ones to the top right capture more treble.

What you say here is what I'm getting at:
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
feeding them stereo-recorded sounds would not be the same as feeding them different recordings per speaker


Multi-channel sampling mixed with multi-channel output should result in a more realistic, full-area tone. That's the theory behind the AvantGrands at least. Currently, what Kawai does with multi-sampling (unless it has changed with the CA-99) is to have the many recorded perspectives in the hardware, but these samples are mixed down to stereo for actual output (with different weightings/mixes for each sample depending on the rendering character chosen). I'm really interested in how different it would sound if there was true multi-channel output at closer positions to where the actual mics captured the original samples.
Has anyone here tried the mechanism yet? I would love to see how people think of it.
I would also love to see how people think of it! wink
Does the NV5 also have the diffuser panels like these new CA's?
Originally Posted by Colin Miles
The improvements to the action would certainly seem to vindicate the criticisms on this forum about the GFII action. I wonder to what extent they have rewritten the software?


I seek a short summary of the criticisms.
Originally Posted by rintincop
Originally Posted by Colin Miles
The improvements to the action would certainly seem to vindicate the criticisms on this forum about the GFII action. I wonder to what extent they have rewritten the software?


I seek a short summary of the criticisms.


From what I have read here it is mostly a 'spongyness' and durability issues.
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
Originally Posted by rintincop
Originally Posted by Colin Miles
The improvements to the action would certainly seem to vindicate the criticisms on this forum about the GFII action. I wonder to what extent they have rewritten the software?


I seek a short summary of the criticisms.


From what I have read here it is mostly a 'spongyness' and durability issues.


Criticisms of older GF keyboards

Gaps between keys not consistent
The PFE tape on the far end of the key 'creeps' sideways
The felt underneath the front of a key when it bottoms is 'spongie'
Splinters of wood supposedly causing a small noise or click against a neighbor key
...(I personally do not accept that is the case all the time. It would take a fairly large splinter.)

These are what I remember ...
Ill add my criticism so maybe Kawai can fix that in GFIIII smile

- There is no real let-off, so the hammer weight stays on the key at all times, while in an acoustic, it does not.


It's 2020, and I say dp actions other than the hybrids should start incorporating some kind of real let-off mechanism by now. Let's stop faking it. smirk
It took two days for the news to reach me, but it looks like Kawai just announced my next piano. Great! Can't wait for it to show up here so that I can test play! Makes my day!
Sponginess sounds vague to me, it suggests a wet sponge, sluggish and heavy more heavy. Not light and fast. I think of the Roland FP30 and FP 10 when I think spongy action.
Originally Posted by rintincop
Sponginess sounds vague to me, it suggests a wet sponge, sluggish and heavy more heavy. Not light and fast. I think of the Roland FP30 and FP 10 when I think spongy action.


To me it was soft bottom but the keys were not sluggish. With my arthritis I liked the action, as I liked the action of the Roland with PHA-50 action . This is where I agree with MacMacMac that you need to try out the pianos for yourself.
I have been so set on the NV5 but the CA99 does look very nice. Will have to wait and see how good the new action is and also if there might be a possibility for a FW update for the new and improved UI for the NV5.

Probably won’t buy anything for a year so no rush smile
The large dp shops in Germany state availability from February and March for the PE version. So it looks like we should have first witness reports from next month (except from NAMM, of course, I guess Pianoman Chuck will get to it and Bonners already did).
Why would one want a hard bottom in the keybed? Cushioned with felt seems ideal.
Originally Posted by rintincop
Why would one want a hard bottom in the keybed? Cushioned with felt seems ideal.


Some thought the GFII action was too cushioned. Several years ago folks were complaining about Roland PHA-III action I believe being to hard/abrupt. These actions are very subjective and I think hard to pin down the right word/vocabulary to use. You really have to try out the actions for yourself. I wanted to like the Yamaha CLP645 but the action is not for me. Might be for you.
This is all well and good, but what I really want to know is when the GFIII will show up in a VPC2 and MP12...
@Tom Fort I think that would be great to have the MP12 get GFIII keyboard. Lets start a pool. Now the VPC2 I don't think it would get the new keybed as the VPC1 didn't have Grand Feel keybed.
Originally Posted by EPW
@Tom Fort I think that would be great to have the MP12 get GFIII keyboard. Lets start a pool. Now the VPC2 I don't think it would get the new keybed as the VPC1 didn't have Grand Feel keybed.



Well, both need some level of redesign to fit the GF3, so in that sense both are candidates. But I suspect if it comes to it, James will come in to throw some cold water on the sentiment (especially for the VPC1).
The GFII wouldn't fit in the MP11, which is why it still has the GF. IIRC, the VPC was built using the MP10 case, so that limited it from even getting the GF.

I'm afraid what is going to happen is that the VPC2 will stay smaller in size and get the GF-C action, while the MP11SE will have its case redesigned to fit the GFIII. Why Kawai chooses to make their very best, most piano-like controller and not use their best action in it is beyond me.
GF and GF II are quite similar [Linked Image] (taken from CA48 post)
VPC2? Was there an announcement at NAMM?
Originally Posted by Tom Fort
I'm afraid what is going to happen is that the VPC2 will stay smaller in size and get the GF-C action ...
Yes, quite similar, nearly the same. I think I remember Kawai James saying something about the new hammer shape on the GFII would hit the top of the MP11 case, so they had to keep the GF. Maybe KJ will remind us.

And 3Mac- KJ has hinted in the past that the VPC1’s successor was being developed. No news on when it might actually be released.
Originally Posted by Marcos Daniel
GF and GF II are quite similar

I decided to try and add GFIII to that image since i felt it was missing it
[Linked Image]
Is the ES110 Compact action the same pivot length as the GF Compact?
1. there is no VPC2
2. did anyone try the GF3?
3. newer is not always the better wink
4. ceep calm and try out first
Pretty cool to see the evolution of the GF action. Taking something good and finding new ways to improve on it every time is a great way to come to a great result.
Both of the models look cool.I wonder if they fixed the software bugs and the clicking keys.
Originally Posted by magicpiano
I wonder exactly what they mean for: "improved SK-EX Rendering multi-channel sound engine features enhanced acoustic piano samples".

I would also like to get more specifics. The description for this_video says: "The improved Shigeru rendering multi-channel sound engine provides vastly enhanced piano samples that are among the best in the industry". And again, only general phrases, it is not clear what exactly has improved.

The same with this (from the same description): "The industry-leading LCD color touch screen has been improved and optimized for pianists". Again, what has been improved and optimized for pianists? Why are only general abstract phrases applied everywhere? For me, for example, one of the important optimizations would be the obvious ability to completely (with backlight) turn off the screen during practice. Is this still impossible?

The only thing for the moment that is specifically known in terms of improvements is the new Grand Feel III action, the details of which are shared by Kawai James on first page of this thread. But here's a quote from that_message:
Originally Posted by Kawai James
- More authentic key width and edge camber for black keys (based on SK-EX specification)
And this is exactly a copy of the sentence from the five years ago message, which described just released Grand Feel II action…

And since talking about black keys, I wonder if the texture of the black keys has changed (not everyone liked the excessive "Ebony" texture of the GF2 action).
Hi James (or anyone that might know),

Do the CA79/99 load samples into RAM from an internal SSD drive? Or are they loaded from ROM?

Also, what is the size of the main (SK-EX) sample?
Hello folks,

To answer some of the queries raised so far:

- 88-key "User" Virtual Technician adjustments will be possible.
- The CA99/CA79 are not available in grand piano-shaped cabinets.
- The internal song recorder functions the same for SK-EX Rendering and Harmonic Imaging XL sounds.
- Transpose/Tuning is now possible with SK-EX Rendering sounds.
- The new system software and touchscreen OS is unfortunately not compatible with existing instruments.
- The speaker diffuser panels are exclusive to the CA99/CA79.
- The touchscreen backlight can turn off.
- All Kawai instruments use samples stored in ROM.

I hope this helps.

Cheers,
James
x
Hello 9190,

Originally Posted by 9190
I would also like to get more specifics. The description for this_video says: "The improved Shigeru rendering multi-channel sound engine provides vastly enhanced piano samples that are among the best in the industry". And again, only general phrases, it is not clear what exactly has improved.

The same with this (from the same description): "The industry-leading LCD color touch screen has been improved and optimized for pianists". Again, what has been improved and optimized for pianists?


I didn't write that description text, however I believe "improved and optimised for pianists" refers to the fact that all acoustic piano sounds are now grouped together on the same screen - regardless of which sound engine (SK-EX Rendering or Harmonic Imaging XL) is used, making it easier for players to select and adjust their preferred piano sounds.

Originally Posted by 9190
But here's a quote from that_message:
Originally Posted by Kawai James
- More authentic key width and edge camber for black keys (based on SK-EX specification)
And this is exactly a copy of the sentence from the five years ago message, which described just released Grand Feel II action…


Sorry, that last line was accidentally left-over from a previous post that I referenced, and not related to the GFIII improvements.

Originally Posted by 9190
And since talking about black keys, I wonder if the texture of the black keys has changed (not everyone liked the excessive "Ebony" texture of the GF2 action).


I don't believe there is a significant change in this area.

Kind regards,
James
x
Hey guys,

on the NAMM 2020 Bonners music is reviewing the CA 99 quickly and plays on it (sounds really good, too!)
I was wondering if anybody knows the name of the first piece he plays at 2:17

Thank you for your help!
here is the video with the review of the CA 99

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hYY7rz-b8g&t=184s


Originally Posted by Kawai James

It's worth nothing that the CA79 also features Onkyo speakers (and improvement over the CA78), albeit not the CA98/CA99 soundboard speaker.


Originally Posted by Kawai James

- The touchscreen backlight can turn off.
- All .



Nice!
Hello Kawai James,
Thank you for the useful information.
To me, the CA79/99 generation looks like an incremental upgrade to the CA78/98, but incremental in all the right places, which is laudable!

Pending the verdict after actually testing the new models, all the user complaints from the previous generation seem to have been addressed in these incremental changes (UI behavior, favorite management, touchscreen backlight, GFII slip tape, GFII key cushion). It is very good to see how Kawai actually took the user feedback from the previous generation on board (plus a few other incremental changes that are nice to have). This might be self-delusion, but I can't shake the feeling that this forum, and James presence here, has played a large role in that.

If I had a CA78/98, I wouldn't lose any sleep over not having the latest generation.

But if I still had my CA97 from one generation further back, I fear that I would now get some serious upgrade jitters. eek

(Luckily for me, I inoculated myself against that sickness with the NV10...) smile
Originally Posted by JoBert
To me, the CA79/99 generation looks like an incremental upgrade to the CA78/98, but incremental in all the right places, which is laudable!

Pending the verdict after actually testing the new models, all the user complaints from the previous generation seem to have been addressed in these incremental changes (UI behavior, favorite management, touchscreen backlight, GFII slip tape, GFII key cushion). It is very good to see how Kawai actually took the user feedback from the previous generation on board (plus a few other incremental changes that are nice to have). This might be self-delusion, but I can't shake the feeling that this forum, and James presence here, has played a large role in that.

If I had a CA78/98, I wouldn't lose any sleep over not having the latest generation.

But if I still had my CA97 from one generation further back, I fear that I would now get some serious upgrade jitters. eek

(Luckily for me, I inoculated myself against that sickness with the NV10...) smile

There's some fairly major changes here though:

1. The 360 degrees sound dispersion thing.
2. The SK-EX has apparently been resampled.

It appears that KawaiPiano.fr's unmistakable claims that the SK-EX was being resampled turned out to be true. It's just that they were missing the context that this was for a new release.
Originally Posted by JoBert
This might be self-delusion, but I can't shake the feeling that this forum, and James presence here, has played a large role in that.

I also have the same feeling. Someone recently brought a wish list thread I created some time ago and I see even some of my wishes from back then were fulfilled: new harpsichord sound and big choice of velocity curves. All the introduced changes are too suspiciously matching all that has been requested by the users on PW. That’s what I used to like in Kawai: that they listen to users. But a little too late for me. And there’s still no binaural patch which ultimately is one of the most important features of my Yamaha.
Just to clarify:

Originally Posted by navindra
2. The SK-EX has apparently been resampled.


The SK-EX has not been resampled. However, the SK-EX samples used by the CA99/CA79 have been changed/improved.

Originally Posted by navindra
It appears that KawaiPiano.fr's unmistakable claims that the SK-EX was being resampled turned out to be true. It's just that they were missing the context that this was for a new release.


Unfortunately, this claim was incorrect.

Kind regards,
James
x
Thank you James for clearing that up.
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Hello folks,

To answer some of the queries raised so far:

- 88-key "User" Virtual Technician adjustments will be possible.
- The CA99/CA79 are not available in grand piano-shaped cabinets.
- The internal song recorder functions the same for SK-EX Rendering and Harmonic Imaging XL sounds.
- Transpose/Tuning is now possible with SK-EX Rendering sounds.
- The new system software and touchscreen OS is unfortunately not compatible with existing instruments.
- The speaker diffuser panels are exclusive to the CA99/CA79.
- The touchscreen backlight can turn off.
- All Kawai instruments use samples stored in ROM.

I hope this helps.

Cheers,
James
x


Dear James,

thank you very much for this great answer. Especially "-88-key "User" Virtual Technician adjustments will be possible." Does this mean that the manual gets updated? Or will it just be an addendum for future software releases? Because in the manual on the german website there was no mention of an individual key adjustment (I suppose volume and voicing per key).

Best wishes from Germany
Daniel
Originally Posted by Colin Miles
The improvements to the action would certainly seem to vindicate the criticisms on this forum about the GFII action.


Makes me wonder if Pianoworld.com gets payed by Kawai (amongst others) for it's expertise in dp testing and providing professional feedback. smirk
Originally Posted by CyberGene
And there’s still no binaural patch which ultimately is one of the most important features of my Yamaha.

+1! thumb Although as recently mentioned recently, there are some differences in the samples, which might make the non-binaural CFX more appropriate for certain pieces on the N1X.
Originally Posted by U3piano
Originally Posted by Colin Miles
The improvements to the action would certainly seem to vindicate the criticisms on this forum about the GFII action.


Makes me wonder if Pianoworld.com gets payed by Kawai (amongst others) for it's expertise in dp testing and providing professional feedback. smirk

I wouldn’t be surprised if the most knowledgeable people about digital pianos (and acoustic pianos) besides manufacturers themselves are the people on PW. The extent to which the tiniest details are “dissected” here is stunning and I don’t think there are other people on the Internet who have discussed digital pianos in even half the details and the pickiness that’s prevalent here.
Cybergene I can only agree with that!

come to think of it, we should all get a piece of the pie. smirk
Originally Posted by U3piano
Originally Posted by Colin Miles
The improvements to the action would certainly seem to vindicate the criticisms on this forum about the GFII action.


Makes me wonder if Pianoworld.com gets payed by Kawai (amongst others) for it's expertise in dp testing and providing professional feedback. smirk

And with better quality control and reliability and Kawaii UK support as good as that provided by Kawaii James then all will indeed be well in the Kawaii world!
I’m really starting to dig the CA99 a lot. I really like the cabinet design and that it has some updated features but also the price. Once I can compare a NV5 to the CA99 I will know for sure which one should be my next piano. Well also depends on that Yamaha will bring to the table at musikmesse.

Hopefully there will be some comparisons soon between the NV5 and the CA99 and thoughts on the actions and if it’s really worth the extra money also considering the the NV5 has older tech. smile
So all kawai digital pianos use samples stored in ROM, same as yamaha and casio etc.. Piano samples using probably between 4 and 8mb in total! That's thousands of pounds, even tens of thousands (digital grands) for a block of wood and metal with a ROM chip shoved inside... Yet there are piano samples in gb for a hundred dollars online, these companies are taking your money in return for ancient tech and minimal effort, it's a crime in this day and age. Yes the speakers may be good and the action but how dare they charge for using ROM chip samples.
Huh?
Originally Posted by mwf
Piano samples using probably between 4 and 8mb in total!
Not so. The samples on my 2005-era piano total around 24 MB. The sizes are much larger today.

Originally Posted by mwf
... these companies are taking your money in return for ancient tech and minimal effort, it's a crime in this day and age.
Wrong again. When a willing buyer and a willing seller exchange legitimate money for legitimate goods ... there is no crime. Not in this day and age, nor in any other.
Here in America I believe we'll have to wait until late spring or early summer to test the CA99/79 digital pianos and the Novus NV5 hybrid model, all of which are a part of Kawai's mid-priced line. In any event, for a certain segment of potential buyers who are interested in buying into Kawai for its sampled tones and feature set, choosing among pianos may now be more difficult than has been the case in the past.

Intermediate-level students who are taking lessons are, I believe, in many cases urged by teachers to practice and play on an acoustic instrument, so they can perform fluently in front of audiences on any piano. The last teacher I had would only instruct her students on a Yamaha NU1 in a back room at our local music store, and would wrinkle her nose at the thought of any student practicing on a "fake" piano. She glumly accepted that I used a Kawai CA65, but wasn't slow in trying to get me to buy an NU1 from the store. (Read into that whatever you want.) So what kind of Kawai piano should an aspiring student upgrade to if he's in the market to buy a new digital or hybrid piano in the mid-priced line? It seems to me that a person is left with a bewildering array of choices.

In my opinion the NV5 hybrid piano may well be the first mid-priced piano from Kawai that could effectively last for an entire decade. The downside is not only its price, but the apparent fact that it's using old samples from the CA98 days and a less-than-stellar interface. The CA99 has a new simulated grand action, resampled voices and a more sophisticated screen, but it's not an acoustic piano.

What makes everything even more complicated are long-term considerations. First, over the course of ten years the CA model will likely be upgraded at least once, and when we figure in the loss of money that entails we start to realize that if we had been in the above-mentioned group we might have been better off just buying the NV5 to begin with. Secondly, while a student might be impressed by the lighter action of the GFIII in the here-and-now, how might the lack of acoustic action affect his playing over the course of a decade?

And just to throw a final monkey wrench into the mess, we're left with the reality that the NV5 might well be the most attractive mid-range piano ever created, a showpiece that just oozes class. Then again, unless Kawai gives it a modern update on par with the CA99, it's already yesterday's news before it's ever sent to the colonies.

All of these facts need to be considered very carefully by any prospective buyer even before visiting a store that stocks all of the above pianos. And a student should plan on spending a very, very long weekend playing.
Originally Posted by mwf
So all kawai digital pianos use samples stored in ROM, same as yamaha and casio etc.. Piano samples using probably between 4 and 8mb in total!


Without knowing any tech details you can CLEARLY hear that is not true.

Also, I paid good money for a pc that can load any VST, I don't want to pay a premium to allow my DP to do what I already can do.
Originally Posted by ADWyatt
Here in America I believe we'll have to wait until late spring or early summer to test the CA99/79 digital pianos and the Novus NV5 hybrid model, all of which are a part of Kawai's mid-priced line.

By what classification do you rate these three pianos as Kawai's mid-priced line? Together with the probably soon-to-be-discontinued CS11 they are among the most expensive pianos Kawai has in their current lineup. Only the NV10 is more expensive.
I would say they are the high-priced models, with the CA48/58 and CN models being the mid-priced line.
Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by ADWyatt
Here in America I believe we'll have to wait until late spring or early summer to test the CA99/79 digital pianos and the Novus NV5 hybrid model, all of which are a part of Kawai's mid-priced line.

By what classification do you rate these three pianos as Kawai's mid-priced line? Together with the probably soon-to-be-discontinued CS11 they are among the most expensive pianos Kawai has in their current lineup. Only the NV10 is more expensive.
I would say they are the high-priced models, with the CA48/58 and CN models being the mid-priced line.

Well you can lump the CA99/CS11 together with the Novus. So if the CA99 is a "high-priced line", then the Novus is a "higher-priced line"
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
Originally Posted by mwf
So all kawai digital pianos use samples stored in ROM, same as yamaha and casio etc.. Piano samples using probably between 4 and 8mb in total!


Without knowing any tech details you can CLEARLY hear that is not true.

Also, I paid good money for a pc that can load any VST, I don't want to pay a premium to allow my DP to do what I already can do.


I dont understand why the manufactures cant or will not put better sounds built in to their pianos . Why pay £8000 for a digital piano like a Kawai NV10 and then run a PC with Garritan CFX concert grand and seperate speakers because the NV10 piano sound is not good enough.
You can purchase Garritan for £150 with 133gb of piano sample and get a 500gb SSd drive for just £50.

When a new piano like the Kawai Ca99 comes out why cant we see the true specs of sample size.Probably be to embarrassing in comparison.
Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by ADWyatt
Here in America I believe we'll have to wait until late spring or early summer to test the CA99/79 digital pianos and the Novus NV5 hybrid model, all of which are a part of Kawai's mid-priced line.

By what classification do you rate these three pianos as Kawai's mid-priced line? Together with the probably soon-to-be-discontinued CS11 they are among the most expensive pianos Kawai has in their current lineup. Only the NV10 is more expensive.
I would say they are the high-priced models, with the CA48/58 and CN models being the mid-priced line.



As none of these pianos have yet been released to the American market, I'm using estimates both from past sales figures of the CA line and European prices of the NV5, along with estimates of American dealer-discounted prices from posts in this forum. In that regard, I'm guessing that the dealer price for a PE version of the CA99 will be about $5,500 USD, while the dealer price for the NV5 will be anywhere from $6,500 to $7,000. If the price of the NV5 is any higher than that, then the NV10 might well be a tempting target for buyers, as I believe it can be purchased in the USA right now for less than $10,000.

To be sure, $7,000 is a lot of money to pay for a mid-range piano, hybrid or not. But I strongly believe that by 2021, when the initial sales rush for this new piano has subsided somewhat, a price of around $6,500 would be fairly common. We must remember that the NV5 is directly competing with Yamaha's NU1X for sales, and that piano has sold for a bargained price of less than $6,000. Feature-wise it's not the NV5's equal, but Kawai has always attempted to compete with Yamaha by offering more "bang for the buck." If the NV5 is priced too far above the NU1X, then sales could very well suffer, forcing the NV5 to adopt a more competitive sales strategy.

Ultimately, this brings me to a point that I made in my OP. If a student decides on the CA99, even by upgrading just once in the next ten years will his decision to stay with a digital grand action cost him as much money as he would have spent if he had bought the NV5 to begin with? If he's absolutely serious about improving his technique, and knows he will ultimately have to play acoustic pianos in his recitals, making a buying decision cannot be easy.
Originally Posted by ADWyatt

In my opinion the NV5 hybrid piano may well be the first mid-priced piano from Kawai that could effectively last for an entire decade. The downside is not only its price, but the apparent fact that it's using old samples from the CA98 days and a less-than-stellar interface. The CA99 has a new simulated grand action, resampled voices and a more sophisticated screen, but it's not an acoustic piano.


Wait.. the CA99 has better/newer samples than the NV5?
Originally Posted by daz100
I dont understand why the manufactures cant or will not put better sounds built in to their pianos . Why pay £8000 for a digital piano like a Kawai NV10 and then run a PC with Garritan CFX concert grand and seperate speakers because the NV10 piano sound is not good enough.

Sample size isn't everything. I and others here are of the opinion that Kawai's SK-EX Rendering compares favorably to available VSTs. Sound is naturally subjective, and you're always going to get a much greater selection using VSTs, so of course some people will prefer VSTs to a DP's built-in sound no matter how good it is.

Separate speakers also aren't required to use a VST so long as the DP has an audio input.

Originally Posted by U3piano
Wait.. the CA99 has better/newer samples than the NV5?

James addressed this:
Originally Posted by Kawai James
The SK-EX has not been resampled. However, the SK-EX samples used by the CA99/CA79 have been changed/improved.
Originally Posted by U3piano
Wait.. the CA99 has better/newer samples than the NV5?

Yes. As James wrote in the beginning of the thread:

- NEW: Authentic new electric piano, organ, harpsichord, strings, and bass sounds
I wonder who’s getting the NV5 for the authentic new electric piano, organ, harpsichord, bass, trumpet, trombone, sax, cowbell, guitar, banjo, and the entire Boston Symphony Orchestra?
Originally Posted by daz100
I don't understand why the manufactures cant or will not put better sounds built in to their pianos. You can purchase Garritan for £150 with 133gb of piano sample and get a 500gb SSd drive for just £50.
.


And then you need a CPU, RAM, motherboard and audio interface that allows you to use it with low latency, and probably a better psu. And then you discover that the garritan samples are actually two different mics and three different perspectives, so the actual size is only +-20GB 'per sound'. And then you discover the modern internal sizes are obviously far beyond '4mb' and getting closer and closer each generation to the point many already prefer the build-up sounds over VSTs.

So you end up paying a premium for an ever decreasing improvement in sound. Meanwhile many people would not want to pay that, and most who do already have a pc so can do that themselves for far less money. So why make a DP €500-1000 more expensive only so some customers get an 'improvement' they could have bought themselves for a fraction of that?
Why would better sample sounds in a piano require a CPU? The piano already has that.
Why would it need RAM? The piano already has that.
Audio interface? It's already there.

The question is not "why won't they put a PC into a piano?"
It's "why won't they put better sounds into a piano?"
Originally Posted by JoBert
It is very good to see how Kawai actually took the user feedback from the previous generation on board (plus a few other incremental changes that are nice to have). This might be self-delusion, but I can't shake the feeling that this forum, and James presence here, has played a large role in that.


All good manufacturers collate feedback from multiple sources when planning and developing new products, and this is certainly the case for piano manufacturers such as Kawai.

User feedback from fellow PianoWorld members is undoubtedly useful, however it represents a relatively small proportion of the suggestions received from customers around the world, advice from Kawai's global network of dealers, distributors, and subsidiaries, and of course ideas conceived by Kawai's acoustic and digital piano R&D.

Kind regards,
James
x
Originally Posted by danielp11
thank you very much for this great answer. Especially "-88-key "User" Virtual Technician adjustments will be possible." Does this mean that the manual gets updated? Or will it just be an addendum for future software releases? Because in the manual on the german website there was no mention of an individual key adjustment (I suppose volume and voicing per key).


I did not have a great deal of involvement in the CA99/CA79 owner's manual creation, however I gather that the contents will be updated (to reflect functions such as the "User" Virtual Technician parameters) in the near future.

Kind regards,
James
x
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Why would better sample sounds in a piano require a CPU? The piano already has that.
Why would it need RAM? The piano already has that.
Audio interface? It's already there.

The question is not "why won't they put a PC into a piano?"
It's "why won't they put better sounds into a piano?"


For the same reason you cannot run garritan CFX on a pc that could just run the grand2. Unless you think spec requirements have not increased the last 20 years, or assume that Kawai has vastly overpowered components yet refuses to use them, I am not sure what argument you are trying to make.
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Just to clarify:

Originally Posted by navindra
2. The SK-EX has apparently been resampled.


The SK-EX has not been resampled. However, the SK-EX samples used by the CA99/CA79 have been changed/improved.

Kind regards,
James
x

So that means that although the raw uncompressed source is still the same - the compressed samples stored in the ROM likely are of higher fidelity (larger ROM).
Originally Posted by Burkie
So that means that although the raw uncompressed source is still the same - the compressed samples stored in the ROM likely are of higher fidelity (larger ROM).


I think you might be reading a little too much into my reply...
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by Burkie
So that means that although the raw uncompressed source is still the same - the compressed samples stored in the ROM likely are of higher fidelity (larger ROM).


I think you might be reading a little too much into my reply...

I feel I agree with James here..

Also sure you could hook up a digital to a VST and use speakers or whatever, but that isn't what these pianos are for, for people that like to do that, there is the VPC-1, and I don't believe piano companies are cheaping out in their tone generation, it's not easy fitting a powerful processor for sound into a tight budget, especially when that budget has to account for speaker systems, the mechanism, the cabinet, and everything else.

If it was possible to just slap a 500 velocity layer sample set on a digital for a good price, people might have already done it, but having high velocity layer counts and the specs don't matter as much as the quality of the samples and the processing around it.
Originally Posted by Xenolith

I feel I agree with James here..

Also sure you could hook up a digital to a VST and use speakers or whatever, but that isn't what these pianos are for, for people that like to do that, there is the VPC-1, and I don't believe piano companies are cheaping out in their tone generation, it's not easy fitting a powerful processor for sound into a tight budget, especially when that budget has to account for speaker systems, the mechanism, the cabinet, and everything else.

If it was possible to just slap a 500 velocity layer sample set on a digital for a good price, people might have already done it, but having high velocity layer counts and the specs don't matter as much as the quality of the samples and the processing around it.


Yes, we can't expect a finished mass product from DP manufacturers to offer anything like a premium VSTs over hundreds GB. Those products are considered to be practical and sufficient for the corresponding price.
Most consumers use the built-in sound engine directly, and only a small number of fans like us can connect to the system of external VSTs. We need to build the system from software to hardware by ourselves.
In this sense, what the DP actually provides is the keyboard action and built-in audio device itself, which is fine.
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by JoBert
It is very good to see how Kawai actually took the user feedback from the previous generation on board (plus a few other incremental changes that are nice to have). This might be self-delusion, but I can't shake the feeling that this forum, and James presence here, has played a large role in that.




User feedback from fellow PianoWorld members is undoubtedly useful, however it represents a relatively small proportion of the suggestions received (...)
Kind regards,
James
x


This topic has been discussed many times here. Some people usually say that 'our' opinions, concerns or experiences are not useful as a guide, in the sense that they are not statistically valid and bla bla bla.
But now it turns out that, being literally 'a relatively small proportion' of the suggestions, these were quite accurate.
+1
Hello mabraman,

Originally Posted by mabraman
This topic has been discussed many times here. Some people usually say that 'our' opinions, concerns or experiences are not useful as a guide, in the sense that they are not statistically valid and bla bla bla.
But now it turns out that, being literally 'a relatively small proportion' of the suggestions, these were quite accurate.


I'm afraid I don't fully understand the point that you are trying to make.

Kind regards,
James
x
Me too. I feel better knowing that I'm not the only one.
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by mabraman
This topic has been discussed many times here. Some people usually say that 'our' opinions, concerns or experiences are not useful as a guide, in the sense that they are not statistically valid and bla bla bla.
But now it turns out that, being literally 'a relatively small proportion' of the suggestions, these were quite accurate.
I'm afraid I don't fully understand the point that you are trying to make.
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Me too. I feel better knowing that I'm not the only one.
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by mabraman
This topic has been discussed many times here. Some people usually say that 'our' opinions, concerns or experiences are not useful as a guide, in the sense that they are not statistically valid and bla bla bla.
But now it turns out that, being literally 'a relatively small proportion' of the suggestions, these were quite accurate.
I'm afraid I don't fully understand the point that you are trying to make.



I perfectly got his point, blame it on my bad English 😂 Not necessarily agree with his point but it expresses a dissatisfaction with how James undervalued PW contribution to the upgrades in the new CA pianos. From one hand, it's indeed overreached to think we're the only people who can give meaningful feedback to Kawai. On the other hand, why not, we're most probably the only people on the Internet. As I said, I haven't seen any other forum or discussions on the Internet that go into such big details regarding digital pianos. With that in mind, well, it's a bit odd that we're such a "small proportion" of the contribution. Come on, who's giving the big proportion of that contribution? You do online surveys or offline polls? You listen to dealer feedback, provided those guys often don't even know the difference between old and new generation... I have a conspiracy theory and it is that we're actually the biggest contribution, but Kawai won't admit it for many reasons: if they admit it, it will denigrate their Japanese whatever bushido tradition they have of not admitting mistakes, also it will spoil us into thinking that we're the big deal and people will start asking from Kawai even more and more, then being mad that Kawai stopped listening to customers anymore and so creating a bad image, bashing, etc. wink
Did somebody break into Cyber Gene's house, take over his computer, and start posting under his name?
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Did somebody break into Cyber Gene's house, take over his computer, and start posting under his name?


You forget I don't use a computer for posting to PW, so rather stole my iPhone but how can she unlock it without my face?! Or did she try to come up with my PIN code, probably trying the birth date of Chopin, nah... that's so easy! Or maybe it's his other alter ego, the one that likes Lola Astanova... Who knows?
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Did somebody break into Cyber Gene's house, take over his computer, and start posting under his name?


You forget I don't use a computer for posting to PW, so rather stole my iPhone but how can she unlock it without my face?! Or did she try to come up with my PIN code, probably trying the birth date of Chopin, nah... that's so easy! Or maybe it's his other alter ego, the one that likes Lola Astanova... Who knows?

I vote for a new personality!

I think the forum should support this by allowing each different personality to have their own avatar. Then there could be the keyboard action CG and the Lola Astanova-inside-a-heart CG smile
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I think the forum should support this by allowing each different personality to have their own avatar. Then there could be the keyboard action CG and the Lola Astanova-inside-a-heart CG smile

Tyrone, admit it, you're also a dieheart fan of Lola's impressive... chops!
Originally Posted by CyberGene

it expresses a dissatisfaction with how James undervalued PW contribution to the upgrades in the new CA pianos.


Not at all, I'm just wondering how such a 'small proportion of the suggestions' received, and complains about former CA models (or some of their characteristics), could be so accurate.
Some of them were well received from the start, others were denied (this is not a known problem, it works as intended, etc).
But most of them are being improved or fixed (hopefully):
-Backlight...done
-Felt+tape issues...done
-Let-off simulation...done
-Sound improvements...done
-Key cushioning...done
-Favorites / settings management...done
-And so on.

I congratulate Kawai for being so responsive to customers/testers.


Originally Posted by CyberGene
As I said, I haven't seen any other forum or discussions on the Internet that go into such big details regarding digital pianos.(...)You listen to dealer feedback, provided those guys often don't even know the difference between old and new generation...

+1
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I think the forum should support this by allowing each different personality to have their own avatar. Then there could be the keyboard action CG and the Lola Astanova-inside-a-heart CG smile

Tyrone, admit it, you're also a dieheart fan of Lola's impressive... chops!

Why, you are talking to the original Lolafan, the OP of one of the top 1% of the longest threads on the Pianist Corner forum. 😎 I even got permission from my wife to be a sycophant. 😜
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I think the forum should support this by allowing each different personality to have their own avatar. Then there could be the keyboard action CG and the Lola Astanova-inside-a-heart CG smile

Tyrone, admit it, you're also a dieheart fan of Lola's impressive... chops!

Why, you are talking to the original Lolafan, the OP of one of the top 1% of the longest threads on the Pianist Corner forum. 😎 I even got permission from my wife to be a sycophant. 😜

Ha! How did I miss that thread?! BTW, I'm fully with you on how people often react based on her flamboyant appearances and how it can't possibly result in a decent pianism but she's not that bad as a pianist and I've seen some (not all) videos where she can play top-notch. Of course there are so many struggling piano virtuosos but that's life, isn't it, she found a niche and used it.
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I think the forum should support this by allowing each different personality to have their own avatar. Then there could be the keyboard action CG and the Lola Astanova-inside-a-heart CG smile

Tyrone, admit it, you're also a dieheart fan of Lola's impressive... chops!

Why, you are talking to the original Lolafan, the OP of one of the top 1% of the longest threads on the Pianist Corner forum. 😎 I even got permission from my wife to be a sycophant. 😜

I think Tyrone is CyberGene's Lolafan alter ego, and he has just be talking with himself...
Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I think the forum should support this by allowing each different personality to have their own avatar. Then there could be the keyboard action CG and the Lola Astanova-inside-a-heart CG smile

Tyrone, admit it, you're also a dieheart fan of Lola's impressive... chops!

Why, you are talking to the original Lolafan, the OP of one of the top 1% of the longest threads on the Pianist Corner forum. 😎 I even got permission from my wife to be a sycophant. 😜

I think Tyrone is CyberGene's Lolafan alter ego, and he has just be talking with himself...

I thought that myself too! Huh, it's an admission of a sort. But I'm no bushido after all...
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I think the forum should support this by allowing each different personality to have their own avatar. Then there could be the keyboard action CG and the Lola Astanova-inside-a-heart CG smile

Tyrone, admit it, you're also a dieheart fan of Lola's impressive... chops!

Why, you are talking to the original Lolafan, the OP of one of the top 1% of the longest threads on the Pianist Corner forum. 😎 I even got permission from my wife to be a sycophant. 😜

Ha! How did I miss that thread?! BTW, I'm fully with you on how people often react based on her flamboyant appearances and how it can't possibly result in a decent pianism but she's not that bad as a pianist and I've seen some (not all) videos where she can play top-notch. Of course there are so many struggling piano virtuosos but that's life, isn't it, she found a niche and used it.

I think Lola's pianism has been much maligned. While she is certainly not top tier, she is quite good overall. In a blind test conducted by former PW member brassplyer about 15 months ago, many PW respondents gave her good marks when it was an anonymous performance, and a few even accused the OP or the recording of being a hoax as the performance was "too perfect" to be human. When it was revealed that it was Lola in her sequins and heels, there was a hue and cry by some that they were hoodwinked by the OP... essentially into inadvertently saying something good about Lola! I think many (most?) people cannot help judging her image or "gimmick" against her pianism. They listen with their eyes!

Consider this performance with a well-known orchestra in the USA - the performance was awarded an Emmy Award a few years ago:



She even dressed down for it.

Lola is certainly better than most graduates from conservatories - she had a Carnegie Hall debut and got work as a classical pianist before she developed her gimmick, when the majority of conservatory graduates struggle (or become computer programmers wink ). She didn't always have this gimmick.



She's cultivated her current image only over the past few years.
Now i feel like i need to replace my CA78 for futureproofing, what i most value is the change to the end of the keys, i believe sooner or later i will encounter that failure on mine. Well well have to see at what price does it come to my country, or even when, i think the CA29/39 arrived around a month ago.

The CA78 is around $4280 here (in Chile), but the dollar has gone up. Maybe if they make a sale, and i can sell mine and pay like $300 extra.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I think the forum should support this by allowing each different personality to have their own avatar. Then there could be the keyboard action CG and the Lola Astanova-inside-a-heart CG smile

Tyrone, admit it, you're also a dieheart fan of Lola's impressive... chops!


No fans of Wang ‘round here?
Originally Posted by Pete14
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I think the forum should support this by allowing each different personality to have their own avatar. Then there could be the keyboard action CG and the Lola Astanova-inside-a-heart CG smile

Tyrone, admit it, you're also a dieheart fan of Lola's impressive... chops!


No fans of Wang ‘round here?

Well, I'm literally torn between the two wink On a more serious note, Yuja is an absolutely top-class pianist, while Lola is rather just decent. But they are apparently targeting different audience and fields of art.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Pete14
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I think the forum should support this by allowing each different personality to have their own avatar. Then there could be the keyboard action CG and the Lola Astanova-inside-a-heart CG smile

Tyrone, admit it, you're also a dieheart fan of Lola's impressive... chops!


No fans of Wang ‘round here?

Well, I'm literally torn between the two wink On a more serious note, Yuja is an absolutely top-class pianist, while Lola is rather just decent. But they are apparently targeting different audience and fields of art.

I agree. One can't compare Lola to Yuja or Khatia. But I admire Lola for deciding that she wanted to make a living doing the thing she loved (piano) - something she still practices many hours each day. And to make a living, she decided to do something different - a gimmick. So she is making her living on her own terms. And didn't just become a housewife raising children. I'd say there is something admirable in that too.
.[/quote]
I agree. One can't compare Lola to Yuja or Khatia. But I admire Lola for deciding that she wanted to make a living doing the thing she loved (piano) - something she still practices many hours each day. And to make a living, she decided to do something different - a gimmick. So she is making her living on her own terms. And didn't just become a housewife raising children. I'd say there is something admirable in that too.[/quote]

doesn't khatia do piano for a living also, if not what do yuja and khatia do other than piano?
Originally Posted by Jitin
Quote

I agree. One can't compare Lola to Yuja or Khatia. But I admire Lola for deciding that she wanted to make a living doing the thing she loved (piano) - something she still practices many hours each day. And to make a living, she decided to do something different - a gimmick. So she is making her living on her own terms. And didn't just become a housewife raising children. I'd say there is something admirable in that too.


doesn't khatia do piano for a living also, if not what do yuja and khatia do other than piano?

You missed the point Tyrone was making. They do make a living from playing the piano built on hard work and talent. Tyrone is pointing out that Lola puts in the hard work, obviously has talent but not quite the talent of virtuouso players. So she has found a way for herself to make a living from her hard work and a gimmick. A perfectly valid approach.
Originally Posted by KevinM
Originally Posted by Jitin
Quote
I agree. One can't compare Lola to Yuja or Khatia. But I admire Lola for deciding that she wanted to make a living doing the thing she loved (piano) - something she still practices many hours each day. And to make a living, she decided to do something different - a gimmick. So she is making her living on her own terms. And didn't just become a housewife raising children. I'd say there is something admirable in that too.
doesn't khatia do piano for a living also, if not what do yuja and khatia do other than piano?
You missed the point Tyrone was making. They do make a living from playing the piano built on hard work and talent. Tyrone is pointing out that Lola puts in the hard work, obviously has talent but not quite the talent of virtuouso players. So she has found a way for herself to make a living from her hard work and a gimmick. A perfectly valid approach.

Exactly. Lola has put in the work, but didn't get the same results as Yuja and Khatia. Call it a difference in talent if you will. But she's found her own way to make a living even if she isn't invited on the big concert circuit.
I'm glad the hammer actuation was changed, I'm having a lot of problems with the slip pads on my CA95 falling off (the tape adhesive isn't strong enough).
Lola-folks, you are spamming this thread.
To help get the thread back on topic.

Seems pianomanchuck is keen on the new GFIII action. 1:13 into this video.

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Consider this performance with a well-known orchestra in the USA - the performance was awarded an Emmy Award a few years ago:


This was a nice performance.
Let's stay on topic.
Hello mabraman,

Originally Posted by mabraman
I'm just wondering how such a 'small proportion of the suggestions' received, and complains about former CA models (or some of their characteristics), could be so accurate.


Kawai produces tens of thousands of digital pianos every year. Kawai's international network of subsidiaries, distributors, and dealers are in constant communication with customers, be it via email, over the phone, or in person. These customers naturally provide feedback - both good and bad - about their pianos, and this feedback is obviously considered when planning and developing new instruments.

I don't believe it's inconceivable for some of this customer feedback to overlap with some of the opinions expressed by PianoWorld forum members. Indeed, some of the customers who have provided feedback to Kawai may also be PianoWorld forum members.

However, as mentioned previously, customer feedback is not the only motivating force behind new features and improvements. Many developments stem from internal R&D (e.g. engineers wishing to improve on the technologies they have designed in the past), with professional pianists and music teachers regularly called upon to test prototypes and provide feedback - again multiple opinions, and multiple sources.

It wasn't my intention to undervalue the contributions from fellow PianoWorld members - my apologies if I gave anyone that impression.

Kind regards,
James
x
Here's PianoManChuck's appraisal of the CA99.

This video features a quick overview from Kawai America's digital piano product manager, Alan Palmer.

I believe some US-based PW forum members may have talked with Alan over the phone, or corresponded by email, so it's nice to see him here, in the flesh. wink



Cheers,
James
x
Kawai James

PianoWorld is a great Forum and wouldn't be the same without your presence. In fact, I believe, were a Poll of Members here who purchase a Kawai Instrument due to your efforts, the Results may be surprising to your Company.

It would be fun to try the new series, but for me, my move out of a metro and to the country would mean at least a 3-4hr drive. And, my CA67 is still a great performer.

Have fun ...
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Here's PianoManChuck's appraisal of the CA99.

This video features a quick overview from Kawai America's digital piano product manager, Alan Palmer.

I believe some US-based PW forum members may have talked with Alan over the phone, or corresponded by email, so it's nice to see him here, in the flesh. wink



Cheers,
James
x

Hi James,

Thanks for posting the video. Yes, I have emailed with Alan before - nice to put face with the name smile.

CA99/79 seem really amazing. Looking forward to trying it out at our local store in future - just for fun!

Osho
I live in UK, does anyone know what the warranty is like on Kawai pianos here, and if something goes wrong somewhere down the line after a few years can it be repaired in the UK? Do they have support centres in the UK.

I guess my main question is, what is the reliability like of the Kawai CA models and the GF2 action in general, does it get worn over time and have there been many reports of faulty units, and faulty keys etc.. or is the durability good overall for many years?

I am in the market for a new piano, and am considering a few options, the nord grand being one and this new kawai CA99, not sure which one to go with, both have kawai actions I know. I tried the CA98 and was not impressed with the sound/speakers at all, the touch was probably the best action I have tried though on a DP, a bit of a weird feeling when bottoming out the keys though. I like the nord, but the nord piano monitors are pretty average and I found them lacking in some areas, the action was pretty light, but very responsive and fast. I am steering more towards the cabinet CA99, but do not want to buy one and have issues with the keyboard a few years down the road, I am sure I have heard they are not very reliable...but I could be wrong.

Cheers

Mark
mwf: My K300 with ATX3 came with a 10 year warranty on the acoustic side of the piano and a 5 year warranty on the ATX3 electronics side. I'm not sure what the warranty period is like on purely digital pianos, but I would be surprised if it's not within the range of 3 to 5 years.
Originally Posted by Gary001
mwf: My K300 with ATX3 came with a 10 year warranty on the acoustic side of the piano and a 5 year warranty on the ATX3 electronics side. I'm not sure what the warranty period is like on purely digital pianos, but I would be surprised if it's not within the range of 3 to 5 years.


The kawai ca99 is probably not much less than kawai k200 or even k300.
I don’t believe all people who buy such expensive pianos , do because they need volume control...
So with that said why not just buy k series kawai and have real thing???

Are acoustic that hard to maintain?
Originally Posted by mwf
I am steering more towards the cabinet CA99, but do not want to buy one and have issues with the keyboard a few years down the road, I am sure I have heard they are not very reliable...but I could be wrong
Mark

My understanding from the NAMM announcement is that the GF3 key action in the CA99 has been modified to resolve the main reliability issue in the GF2, and improve the action bottoming feel. However, dare I suggest that being a new action, albeit based on the GF2, there may be other newly introduced unknown reliability issues down the road; unless the changes from GF2 are minimal so that the the risk of further new issues are minimal too. Whatever, I think you will need to try it in person.
And a more sophisticate physical modelling ...(virtual technician).
Anybody found a picture of the polished ebony finish of the NEW ca99? I orded it as an Upgrade of my old ca98 and not yet even saw one ;-).

I imagine it looks close to the cs11 in this finish. Maybe even more beautiful:-) :-) :-).

Oh it is heavens to be KAWAI customer *yahoooooo*

Galuwen

James: If you got a picture but can not share in public please PN ;-)
Originally Posted by Galuwen
Anybody found a picture of the polished ebony finish of the NEW ca99? I orded it as an Upgrade of my old ca98 and not yet even saw one ;-).

I imagine it looks close to the cs11 in this finish. Maybe even more beautiful:-) :-) :-).

Oh it is heavens to be KAWAI customer *yahoooooo*

Galuwen

James: If you got a picture but can not share in public please PN ;-)


I’m also very curious about the ebony finish of the CA99. I have not seen it for pre-order in the EU yet. What did you pay for it?
Originally Posted by Jitin
Originally Posted by Gary001
mwf: My K300 with ATX3 came with a 10 year warranty on the acoustic side of the piano and a 5 year warranty on the ATX3 electronics side. I'm not sure what the warranty period is like on purely digital pianos, but I would be surprised if it's not within the range of 3 to 5 years.


The kawai ca99 is probably not much less than kawai k200 or even k300.
I don’t believe all people who buy such expensive pianos , do because they need volume control...
So with that said why not just buy k series kawai and have real thing???

Are acoustic that hard to maintain?


A digital piano has more advantages than 'volume control'. For example the ability to quickly change piano sound (adding/removing felt on a real piano regularly is not a serious option), the ease of making quality recordings and the ability to trigger other devices. The 'real thing' simply has far less appeal to me as it doesnt allow me to do what I want to do and provides barriers that do not exist with a digital piano.
Originally Posted by Jitin
Originally Posted by Gary001
mwf: My K300 with ATX3 came with a 10 year warranty on the acoustic side of the piano and a 5 year warranty on the ATX3 electronics side. I'm not sure what the warranty period is like on purely digital pianos, but I would be surprised if it's not within the range of 3 to 5 years.


The kawai ca99 is probably not much less than kawai k200 or even k300.
I don’t believe all people who buy such expensive pianos , do because they need volume control...
So with that said why not just buy k series kawai and have real thing???

Are acoustic that hard to maintain?

The CA99 costs £3,369.

The Kawai K200 costs £4,600.

So the Kawai K200 costs 36.5% more - which is quite a significant price difference. (The digital piano is also a lot smaller, lighter and could be more convenient if you live in a small space, or ever need to move).

Of course, the acoustic piano will be better to play - but the price difference and convenience is often more of an important factor, not to mention the advantage of headphone practice.
Originally Posted by Jitin
Originally Posted by Gary001
mwf: My K300 with ATX3 came with a 10 year warranty on the acoustic side of the piano and a 5 year warranty on the ATX3 electronics side. I'm not sure what the warranty period is like on purely digital pianos, but I would be surprised if it's not within the range of 3 to 5 years.


The kawai ca99 is probably not much less than kawai k200 or even k300.
I don’t believe all people who buy such expensive pianos , do because they need volume control...
So with that said why not just buy k series kawai and have real thing???

Are acoustic that hard to maintain?


This is a good question, and I think we should discuss about in a new post.

If you play fine tuned and voiced acoustic pianos in a shop, you will always find that acoustics are thar better than digitals.
Better sound, better keyboard, better control, more pleasure with playing etc.
It is my experience, so far.

Well, it is not totally true, because bad acoustic piano exist.
I had one.

My first piano was an acoustic. I found it marvellous in the beginning.
But after some months it was not so big. Always out of tune, bad keyboard.
It was a bad acoustic piano, cheap but bad (500 $)

The main characteristic of this situation are :
- misconception of the piano : impossible to maintained tuned
- very unconstant hygrometrics in the house

I must add that with this acoustic I could not play during the night, the morning, and sometimes when my famillly was fed up with all this noise.
Here the problem it is the house . Solution is very expensive...

So first step : to have an acoustic you need :
- buy a really good acoustic and that keeps the tuning
- have a big house where you have a room for the instrument, and nobody else hear you playing. (and it is better to work alone)
- have good hygrometrics, temperature and so on, or buy a damp-chaser and wait until all be stabilized

So after my first acoustic I bought an ES8 digital piano. It was marvellous : precise keyboard far better than my acoustic, always tuned, and I could play 27/7.
And I play a lot. Everybody felt better in the house...
After some month I sold my acoustic because I never used it, it was too bad.

So now it apears that after 7 years learning the piano (I am near 58 years old), I am fed up with my ES8 too !
Why ?
First the keyboard is not exactly responding like an acoustic, and now I feel the difficulty to be connected with the music and to produce nuances ppp and FFF and so on.
And it is difficult to play instantly on an acoustic piano.
Second I am fed up with the sound despite the almost infinite possibilities to modify every thing.

So I begin to think about buy a new piano. I thought a lot about the Kawai K300 ATX3 or the same Yamaha (exists but more expensive).
I am not sure that my final choice is the better, but I have strong "technical constraints" so I chose the rational side against the heart side.

I chose to buy a very expensive hybrid piano, the Yamaha N1X (7000 €). Because :
- I play with headphone 95 %of the time
- I will have a grand keyboard : best choice for technical work an expressivity
- for the 5 % when I play out loud I will have a not so bad sound
Originally Posted by BachToTheFuture

So after my first acoustic I bought an ES8 digital piano. It was marvellous : precise keyboard far better than my acoustic, always tuned, and I could play 27/7.
And I play a lot. Everybody felt better in the house...
After some month I sold my acoustic because I never used it, it was too bad.

So now it apears that after 7 years learning the piano (I am near 58 years old), I am fed up with my ES8 too !
Why ?
First the keyboard is not exactly responding like an acoustic, and now I feel the difficulty to be connected with the music and to produce nuances ppp and FFF and so on.
And it is difficult to play instantly on an acoustic piano.
Second I am fed up with the sound despite the almost infinite possibilities to modify every thing.

So I begin to think about buy a new piano. I thought a lot about the Kawai K300 ATX3 or the same Yamaha (exists but more expensive).
I am not sure that my final choice is the better, but I have strong "technical constraints" so I chose the rational side against the heart side.

I chose to buy a very expensive hybrid piano, the Yamaha N1X (7000 €). Because :
- I play with headphone 95 %of the time
- I will have a grand keyboard : best choice for technical work an expressivity
- for the 5 % when I play out loud I will have a not so bad sound


All acoustic actions are different so you will always need to make adjustments to your playing to accommodate the different actions. It is often difficult to play instantly when going from one acoustic to another so personally I wouldn't be too concerned about this.

It sounds like you have made a good choice though, and sometime in the future if and when you start getting bored with the internal sounds you can use your N1X as a VST controller. I have two very different VST pianos that provide some nice variation.
Originally Posted by BachToTheFuture
Originally Posted by Jitin
Are acoustic that hard to maintain?


This is a good question, and I think we should discuss about in a new post.

So why didn't you? Put it in a new post, I mean?

This is way off topic for this thread here, where the new CAx9 models are discussed.
Originally Posted by Boboulus
Originally Posted by Galuwen
Anybody found a picture of the polished ebony finish of the NEW ca99? I orded it as an Upgrade of my old ca98 and not yet even saw one ;-).

I imagine it looks close to the cs11 in this finish. Maybe even more beautiful:-) :-) :-).

Oh it is heavens to be KAWAI customer *yahoooooo*

Galuwen

James: If you got a picture but can not share in public please PN ;-)

I have not seen it for pre-order in the EU yet.


https://www.thomann.de/nl/kawai_ca_99_ep_set.htm (no pictures, but up for pre-order). I know there were others, but they seem to have removed it again. The EP versions seem to be end of march, or somewhere in April around here. The non-EP versions of both the CA79 and CA99 are scheduled to arrive in 2-3 weeks, which is a bit sooner than I expected. Fingers crossed!
Hello mwf,

Originally Posted by mwf
I live in UK, does anyone know what the warranty is like on Kawai pianos here, and if something goes wrong somewhere down the line after a few years can it be repaired in the UK? Do they have support centres in the UK.


Kawai UK provides a 5 year parts and labour warranty for all digital pianos.
Please refer to the following page:

https://www.kawai.co.uk/5years/

The CA99 was just announced a couple of weeks ago, but should start to become available in dealer's stores from mid-late Feburary (depending on the location). My recommendation would be to play-test the instrument when it arrives at your local dealer's store, and perhaps do a side-by-side comparison with the CA98.

You should also check other manufacturer's models in this price range, such as the Yamaha CLP-685 and Roland LX-706.

Best of luck!

Cheers,
James
x
Hello Galuwen,

Originally Posted by Galuwen
Anybody found a picture of the polished ebony finish of the NEW ca99? I orded it as an Upgrade of my old ca98 and not yet even saw one ;-).

I imagine it looks close to the cs11 in this finish. Maybe even more beautiful:-) :-) :-).

Oh it is heavens to be KAWAI customer *yahoooooo*

Galuwen

James: If you got a picture but can not share in public please PN ;-)


I'm afraid I do not have any pictures of the CA99/CA79 in ebony polish yet, however I will be seeing these instruments in person on Tuesday, so photography will not be too far off. wink

Kind regards,
James
x
Hello folks,

I checked the production model CA79 and CA99 ebony polish instruments at a product confirmation meeting earlier this afternoon.

Suffice it to say, the CA99EP is absolutely stunning.

Cheers,
James
x
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Suffice it to say, the CA99EP is absolutely stunning.


If it sounds and feels as good as you say it looks, then I'm sure I won't be the only person here tempted to jump in.
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Hello folks,

I checked the production model CA79 and CA99 ebony polish instruments at a product confirmation meeting earlier this afternoon.

Suffice it to say, the CA99EP is absolutely stunning.

Cheers,
James
x


I’m quoting you now... “pictures or it didn’t happen” wink

I was so set on the NV5 but now I’m not so sure anymore.... I do hope I get to try them side by side in Sweden.
Originally Posted by Boboulus
I’m quoting you now... “pictures or it didn’t happen” wink


All in good time. wink

Originally Posted by Boboulus
I was so set on the NV5 but now I’m not so sure anymore.... I do hope I get to try them side by side in Sweden.


Ah, I'm sure this will be possible.

The NV5 is equally stunning, and follows the Novus design philosophy. Visually, the NV5 is probably the more impressive instrument, however the CA99EP is a very close second, and a worthy successor to the CS11. It's certainly the most beautiful non-hybrid digital piano I've seen in recent years.

Cheers,
James
x
Originally Posted by Kawai James
[quote=Boboulus]
Ah, I'm sure this will be possible.

The NV5 is equally stunning, and follows the Novus design philosophy. Visually, the NV5 is probably the more impressive instrument, however the CA99EP is a very close second, and a worthy successor to the CS11. It's certainly the most beautiful non-hybrid digital piano I've seen in recent years.

Cheers,
James
x


Is ca99 replacing cs11 and ca98? Is cs line no longer being made?
Originally Posted by Jitin
Originally Posted by Kawai James
[quote=Boboulus]
Ah, I'm sure this will be possible.

The NV5 is equally stunning, and follows the Novus design philosophy. Visually, the NV5 is probably the more impressive instrument, however the CA99EP is a very close second, and a worthy successor to the CS11. It's certainly the most beautiful non-hybrid digital piano I've seen in recent years.

Cheers,
James
x


Is ca99 replacing cs11 and ca98? Is cs line no longer being made?


CA99 replaces the CA98 and effectively is a CS13.
Originally Posted by Jitin
Is ca99 replacing cs11 and ca98? Is cs line no longer being made?


Correct. The CS8 was effectively discontinued when the CA78EP and, to a lesser extent, the CA98EP were announced in Autumn 2018. However, the CS11 remained in production as customers and dealers appreciated the upright piano form factor.

The CA79EP and CA99EP went into production earlier this month, with CS11/CS11W production discontinued at the end of 2019.

The CS Series will be re-listed as a "Discontinued" series on the Kawai Global website in the near future.

Kind regards,
James
x
New presentation video on CA99.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8TamARBbGw
Just Music in Hamburg is listing availability as February 19th, everybody else is more vague like "mid of February" or "2-3 weeks".
New presentation video for CA79 from Kawai Europe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28H0uua4TNY
Originally Posted by grd-dan
New presentation video for CA79 from Kawai Europe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28H0uua4TNY

And here it is in German: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCn5N4-Yg4M
Originally Posted by grd-dan
New presentation video on CA99.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8TamARBbGw


As far as their videos are concerned Kawai Europe seems to be determined to cement their status as the organisation that taste forgot! They've got form for this.

The previous demonstrator had the most horrific taste in hand jewellery. The new guy insists on wearing cuffs that cover half his hands, he has a totally ridiculous little beard and he can't bloody well sit still while playing. And all this in a setting that looks like the activities room at an open prison.

Someone needs to get a grip of these awful videos.

Rule number 1: do not use anyone or anything that is going to needlessly distract the viewer (especially a nit-picking weirdo like me) from admiring what a wonderful piano they are demonstrating.
Originally Posted by EssBrace
[quote=grd-dan]New presentation video on CA99.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8TamARBbGw


As far as their videos are concerned Kawai Europe seems to be determined to cement their status as the organisation that taste forgot! They've got form for this.

The previous demonstrator had the most horrific taste in hand jewellery. The new guy insists on wearing cuffs that cover half his hands, he has a totally ridiculous little beard and he can't bloody well sit still while playing. And all this in a setting that looks like the activities room at an open prison.

Someone needs to get a grip of these awful videos.

Rule number 1: do not use anyone or anything that is going to needlessly distract the viewer (especially a nit-picking weirdo like me) from admiring what a wonderful piano they are demonstrating.[/quote

I commented on this video and didn’t even notice the player, lol. But you make an interesting point of how we listen and hear music. I’m going to post a thread on this topic.
Originally Posted by EssBrace
he has a totally ridiculous little beard

Point taken! I have been wearing almost the same type of beard for years and I have similar face (the guy is Polish judging from his name and expectedly we slavs have similar face structure) 😆
Originally Posted by EssBrace

The previous demonstrator had the most horrific taste in hand jewellery. The new guy insists on wearing cuffs that cover half his hands, he has a totally ridiculous little beard and he can't bloody well sit still while playing. And all this in a setting that looks like the activities room at an open prison.


I'd rather have 'the most horrific taste in hand jewellery' and a 'totally ridiculous little beard' than be the guy who [censored]-talks strangers behind their back on the internet just because of their looks. To each his own, I guess.
Quote
To each his own, I guess.


I got nothing against his look. But the way he bobs is super distracting. I didn't finish the video.
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Hello folks,

I checked the production model CA79 and CA99 ebony polish instruments at a product confirmation meeting earlier this afternoon.

Suffice it to say, the CA99EP is absolutely stunning.

Cheers,
James
x


Do they feature midi 2.0?
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Do they feature midi 2.0?


No, not to my knowledge.

Kind regards,
James
x
That makes me think if there will be any big piano anytime soon from Kawai or other Manufacturers that can make a difference in using it.
I mean, if you today want the best hybrid possible, would it be a acoustic with a silent system or an digital with acoustic action?
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
I mean, if you today want the best hybrid possible, would it be a acoustic with a silent system or an digital with acoustic action?


That's another can of worms entirely, and not really related to the topic of this thread.

However, for the sake of argument, I would say that a customer considering any instrument should buy the product that fulfils their needs the most, while also meeting their budget.

Cheers,
James
x
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
That makes me think if there will be any big piano anytime soon from Kawai or other Manufacturers that can make a difference in using it.
I mean, if you today want the best hybrid possible, would it be a acoustic with a silent system or an digital with acoustic action?

I don't understand your question. Currently the entire spectrum is covered: you have entry level digital pianos (stage or compact/cabinet), you have "middle-ground" digital pianos (stage or cabinet), there are the upper level digital pianos (stage, cabinet, grand piano style, some with soundboard), there are hybrid pianos with upright and grand piano actions, there are silent uprights and grands, trans-acoustic pianos, and then there are classic acoustic upright and grand pianos in all sizes, kinds and price ranges. And also there are thousands of used acoustic pianos which even after 100 years are not that different than current pianos since acoustic pianos were perfected at least 100 years ago.

What exactly do you need? What's missing? The piano showrooms await you smile You only need to choose your piano.
What capabilities of MIDI 2.0 are you seeking?
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Do they feature midi 2.0?
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
What capabilities of MIDI 2.0 are you seeking?
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Do they feature midi 2.0?



MIDI 2.0 means that you have more dynamics/expression than before and less latency.
No, it does not. Latency is in your PC audio chain.
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
MIDI 2.0 means that you have more dynamics/expression than before and less latency.
I use plain old MIDI 1.0 ... over DIN cables, just like the original spec in 1983.
My latency is just over 2 msec.

MIDI 2.0 is for the studio. It offers nothing to the pianist.
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
What capabilities of MIDI 2.0 are you seeking?
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Do they feature midi 2.0?



MIDI 2.0 means that you have more dynamics/expression than before and less latency.

Yeah I'm also waiting for that but seems like piano manufacturers are not very much interested in this upgrade.
But more about the topic, there is only one thing I don't like about new pianos so far. It's exposed mounting element on fallboard, in my opinion it looks bad, especially considering whole piano looks awesome and better than previous series.
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
No, it does not. Latency is in your PC audio chain.
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
MIDI 2.0 means that you have more dynamics/expression than before and less latency.
I use plain old MIDI 1.0 ... over DIN cables, just like the original spec in 1983.
My latency is just over 2 msec.

MIDI 2.0 is for the studio. It offers nothing to the pianist.



What makes you say that? You could have way more values for the way you press down the keys. I think it was some billions instead of 127.
More isn't better. It's enough to have 127 velocity levels. Can your ears hear more than that? Nope.

How about the pedal? Mine has six levels. MIDI allows 127, but six is enough. Many VSTs won't even support six, let along 127. And never mind billions.

McDonald's has sold billions of hamburgers. But I've eaten only a few.

More is not necessarily better. Don't be blinded by the numbers.
Originally Posted by Nordomus
It's exposed mounting element on fallboard, in my opinion it looks bad, especially considering whole piano looks awesome and better than previous series.


Are you talking about the music rest? Some people have mentioned that the music rests on these upright-like cabinets are lower than ideal and can give discomfort in the neck when score reading for a period of time. Obviously I haven't played the CA99 to experience it but it's true of the CLP685.

I suppose some people like the upright cabinet, others prefer the older looking cabinets that aren't as high.
Originally Posted by OldTinho
Originally Posted by Nordomus
It's exposed mounting element on fallboard, in my opinion it looks bad, especially considering whole piano looks awesome and better than previous series.


Are you talking about the music rest? Some people have mentioned that the music rests on these upright-like cabinets are lower than ideal and can give discomfort in the neck when score reading for a period of time. Obviously I haven't played the CA99 to experience it but it's true of the CLP685.

I suppose some people like the upright cabinet, others prefer the older looking cabinets that aren't as high.

Yeah this is slight problem as well but I actually meant this:
https://imgur.com/QTAQEPg
Oh I see, so you'd prefer a sleeker looking fallboard?
Well whuzzup hybrid fans. It seems that Kawai wants to call the CA99 a hybrid:
https://kawaius.com/product/ca99/
A new contemporary cabinet design, along with an updated LCD touchscreen and authentic new piano sounds contribute to why the CA99 is a stand-out among hybrid digital pianos.

So now "hybrid" means nothing at all. Or it means anything at all. Like "organic" foods.

Or ... perhaps that's just a weasel-worded statement. As in: The CA99 is NOT a hybrid, but it "stands out" (whatever that means) among the hybrids.

Take your pick.
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
More isn't better. It's enough to have 127 velocity levels. Can your ears hear more than that? Nope.

How about the pedal? Mine has six levels. MIDI allows 127, but six is enough. Many VSTs won't even support six, let along 127. And never mind billions.

McDonald's has sold billions of hamburgers. But I've eaten only a few.

More is not necessarily better. Don't be blinded by the numbers.


It's more about letting the digital feel more analog. A acoustic piano has no stepped dynamic, like in digital. It's continous, which makes it so great!
You never run out of expression.

I have really difficulty doing ppp to fff on digitals!
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Well whuzzup hybrid fans. It seems that Kawai wants to call the CA99 a hybrid:
https://kawaius.com/product/ca99/
A new contemporary cabinet design, along with an updated LCD touchscreen and authentic new piano sounds contribute to why the CA99 is a stand-out among hybrid digital pianos.

So now "hybrid" means nothing at all. Or it means anything at all. Like "organic" foods.

Or ... perhaps that's just a weasel-worded statement. As in: The CA99 is NOT a hybrid, but it "stands out" (whatever that means) among the hybrids.

Take your pick.


They have been doing that with earlier models as well. Kawai seems to define hybrid not based on action but on whether there is a soundboard speaker. So the CA79 is not a hybrid, but not due to the action but due to the missing soundboard speaker, and the NV10 is a hybrid but again for different reasons than one might expect.
Hybrid digital pianos are AvantGrand and Novus. The term was first used by Yamaha for their GranTouch pianos (predecessors to AG) and whether it's semantically correct or not, it means a digital piano with an action borrowed from an acoustic piano.

Why Casio and Kawai want to market some of their pianos as hybrid when the action is not one borrowed from an acoustic grand (or having the same principle with escapement, etc.) is another story.
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
More isn't better. It's enough to have 127 velocity levels. Can your ears hear more than that? Nope.

How about the pedal? Mine has six levels. MIDI allows 127, but six is enough. Many VSTs won't even support six, let along 127. And never mind billions.

McDonald's has sold billions of hamburgers. But I've eaten only a few.

More is not necessarily better. Don't be blinded by the numbers.


It's more about letting the digital feel more analog. A acoustic piano has no stepped dynamic, like in digital. It's continous, which makes it so great!
You never run out of expression.

I have really difficulty doing ppp to fff on digitals!


I am 100% convinced that you cannot do a run of 127 notes with each note having a velocity of +1 compared to the previous note. In other words, your 'natural variance' is higher than the smallest step MIDI 1.1 provides. As such a higher velocity resolution won't change much.
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
More isn't better. It's enough to have 127 velocity levels. Can your ears hear more than that? Nope.

How about the pedal? Mine has six levels. MIDI allows 127, but six is enough. Many VSTs won't even support six, let along 127. And never mind billions.

McDonald's has sold billions of hamburgers. But I've eaten only a few.

More is not necessarily better. Don't be blinded by the numbers.


It's more about letting the digital feel more analog. A acoustic piano has no stepped dynamic, like in digital. It's continous, which makes it so great!
You never run out of expression.

I have really difficulty doing ppp to fff on digitals!


I am 100% convinced that you cannot do a run of 127 notes with each note having a velocity of +1 compared to the previous note. In other words, your 'natural variance' is higher than the smallest step MIDI 1.1 provides. As such a higher velocity resolution won't change much.



The problem is that you can't play ppp and then switch to fff.
Why is that? Because the resolution/sensors is not fine enough to get nuances between them.
I'm NOT arguing about playing exact 127 'notes', but being able to play ppp and fff and anything between.

Many digitals have the problem, that you can't reach the whole spectrum AT ALL. Not even at will.
You can change the key touch, but this messes with the timbre, and you will have a problem playing ppp then, if you adjust the key touch to be able to play fff!
Look at this: http://www.piano-e-competition.com/midi_2011.asp

It's known for long time now, that the advanced Yamaha XP MIDI is capable of doing way better.
In less than a minute, from 1 to 127, every variation can be hit!
Specifically, http://www.piano-e-competition.com/MIDIFiles/2011/Chon08.MID great midi variation even at old standards
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken

The problem is that you can't play ppp and then switch to fff.
Why is that? Because the resolution/sensors is not fine enough to get nuances between them.
I'm NOT arguing about playing exact 127 'notes', but being able to play ppp and fff and anything between.

Many digitals have the problem, that you can't reach the whole spectrum AT ALL. Not even at will.
You can change the key touch, but this messes with the timbre, and you will have a problem playing ppp then, if you adjust the key touch to be able to play fff!


But that has nothing to do with the MIDI standard. If a digital piano already cannot output the full MIDI range of 1-127, then increase the resolution of the MIDI standard won't change a thing.
What is the problem, why can't we have this variation / dynamic in any digital piano?


'These performances are best enjoyed when reproduced by a Disklavier PRO using MIDI files that were recorded with the high resolution XP data. However, these performances are also offered in Standard MIDI File format for playback on non-PRO Disklavier pianos and other high quality digital instruments as well as in the legacy E-SEQ format for playback on early model Disklaviers.
'
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken

The problem is that you can't play ppp and then switch to fff.
Why is that? Because the resolution/sensors is not fine enough to get nuances between them.
I'm NOT arguing about playing exact 127 'notes', but being able to play ppp and fff and anything between.

Many digitals have the problem, that you can't reach the whole spectrum AT ALL. Not even at will.
You can change the key touch, but this messes with the timbre, and you will have a problem playing ppp then, if you adjust the key touch to be able to play fff!


But that has nothing to do with the MIDI standard. If a digital piano already cannot output the full MIDI range of 1-127, then increase the resolution of the MIDI standard won't change a thing.


Yea, but I can't get this variation as posted in any digital piano I have tested so far... Why can this Yamaha Disklavier do it and others can't?
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken

The problem is that you can't play ppp and then switch to fff.
Why is that? Because the resolution/sensors is not fine enough to get nuances between them.
I'm NOT arguing about playing exact 127 'notes', but being able to play ppp and fff and anything between.

Many digitals have the problem, that you can't reach the whole spectrum AT ALL. Not even at will.
You can change the key touch, but this messes with the timbre, and you will have a problem playing ppp then, if you adjust the key touch to be able to play fff!


But that has nothing to do with the MIDI standard. If a digital piano already cannot output the full MIDI range of 1-127, then increase the resolution of the MIDI standard won't change a thing.

Although I'm not a proponent of higher resolutions than 127 and agree the classic MIDI is enough, I'm more than certain the internal engines of all digital pianos measure duration between sensor activations and calculate velocity in a very high internal precision, probably used internally by the sound engine too. It's only when they need to send MIDI that they truncate it to a 7-bit value.
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Yea, but I can't get this variation as posted in any digital piano I have tested so far... Why can this Yamaha Disklavier do it and others can't?


I just checked on my trusty old P140:

[Linked Image]

This is with 'normal touch setting'. There can be all sorts of reasons why another DP may not be able to do this, but again, that is not because of the MIDI standard itself. A higher resolution would allow you to play steps between the min-max, it doesn't change the min-max itself.
Exactly. It has nothing to do with MIDI.
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
It's known for long time now, that the advanced Yamaha XP MIDI is capable of doing way better.
In less than a minute, from 1 to 127, every variation can be hit!
But every variation cannot be heard. So what's the point?

127 levels over a range of, say, 50 dB is around 0.4 dB per level.
The ear can barely distinguish 1 dB, though some people claim the abilty to hear 1/2 dB.
So 127 is quite enough.

If you can't hear the difference then there is no difference. Don't be fooled by big numbers and flashy claims.

MIDI 2 has a place in the production studio. But for the performer it offers nothing.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Although I'm not a proponent of higher resolutions than 127 and agree the classic MIDI is enough, I'm more than certain the internal engines of all digital pianos measure duration between sensor activations and calculate velocity in a very high internal precision, probably used internally by the sound engine too. It's only when they need to send MIDI that they truncate it to a 7-bit value.


Sure, but that isn't related to nicknameTaken's issue of DPs not being able to hit both min and max values with the same touch setting. Increased resolution merely increases the steps in between these two values.
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Exactly. It has nothing to do with MIDI.
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
It's known for long time now, that the advanced Yamaha XP MIDI is capable of doing way better.
In less than a minute, from 1 to 127, every variation can be hit!
But every variation cannot be heard. So what's the point?

127 levels over a range of, say, 50 dB is around 0.4 dB per level.
The ear can barely distinguish 1 dB, though some people claim the abilty to hear 1/2 dB.
So 127 is quite enough.

If you can't hear the difference then there is no difference. Don't be fooled by big numbers and flashy claims.

MIDI 2 has a place in the production studio. But for the performer it offers nothing.


Change of midi level changes timbre.
What if I want to knowingly want to play in the muffled timbre ( ppp), and then in the really bright timbre (fff) ? Depending on the piano...

On my digital, I could only hold a midi level of 95 in average, there is a lot missing imo.
Simple ... just press gently and you get ppp. Press forcefully and you get fff.
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
What if I want to knowingly want to play in the muffled timbre ( ppp), and then in the really bright timbre (fff) ? Depending on the piano...
If your piano cannot oblige it's the fault of the piano. MIDI has nothing at all to do with that.
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
On my digital, I could only hold a midi level of 95 in average, there is a lot missing imo.


If your digital piano cannot output the full range, get a better digital piano. It isn't the fault of MIDI
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Simple ... just press gently and you get ppp. Press forcefully and you get fff.
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
What if I want to knowingly want to play in the muffled timbre ( ppp), and then in the really bright timbre (fff) ? Depending on the piano...
If your piano cannot oblige it's the fault of the piano. MIDI has nothing at all to do with that.


I see. Then the RD-2000 can't do that. It wasn't as big as an issue on the hybrids I checked on so far, but none of them could reach close to the max value of midi.
The Yamaha CLP 695 for instance had a bump at around 105 to 127, instead of being able to hit inbetween.
The Kawai CA78 did not hit higher than 112.
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Exactly. It has nothing to do with MIDI.
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
It's known for long time now, that the advanced Yamaha XP MIDI is capable of doing way better.
In less than a minute, from 1 to 127, every variation can be hit!
But every variation cannot be heard. So what's the point?

127 levels over a range of, say, 50 dB is around 0.4 dB per level.
The ear can barely distinguish 1 dB, though some people claim the abilty to hear 1/2 dB.
So 127 is quite enough.

If you can't hear the difference then there is no difference. Don't be fooled by big numbers and flashy claims.

MIDI 2 has a place in the production studio. But for the performer it offers nothing.


To expand on that: here is a recording of four notes, with velocity ranging between 70-73. Anyone wants to guess which note has which velocity? Anyone here thinks we really need a few dozen or hundred more steps in between these values?

https://sndup.net/7xmc/test+velocity.wav
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Exactly. It has nothing to do with MIDI.
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
It's known for long time now, that the advanced Yamaha XP MIDI is capable of doing way better.
In less than a minute, from 1 to 127, every variation can be hit!
But every variation cannot be heard. So what's the point?

127 levels over a range of, say, 50 dB is around 0.4 dB per level.
The ear can barely distinguish 1 dB, though some people claim the abilty to hear 1/2 dB.
So 127 is quite enough.

If you can't hear the difference then there is no difference. Don't be fooled by big numbers and flashy claims.

MIDI 2 has a place in the production studio. But for the performer it offers nothing.


To expand on that: here is a recording of four notes, with velocity ranging between 70-73. Anyone wants to guess which note has which velocity? Anyone here thinks we really need a few dozen or hundred more steps in between these values?

https://sndup.net/7xmc/test+velocity.wav


Don't draw it into the ridiculous!

I don't speak about a variation of 3!

I speak about 100 to 127 for instance.

Or 1 to 30.
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken


Don't draw it into the ridiculous!

I don't speak about a variation of 3!

I speak about 100 to 127 for instance.

Or 1 to 30.


You are not understanding me correctly. MIDI 2.0 will add variations in between these tiny steps. That is what MIDI 2.0 is, and that is why everyone here is telling you that MIDI 2.0 is not useful for pianists. Your issue with 100-127 is, again, not because of MIDI but because of your digital piano. Your complaint has nothing to do with MIDI. It is not related to MIDI. MIDI is not the cause of your problem. Changing the MIDI standard wont fix your issue. If you miss a large part of the MIDI range your digital piano is simply not correctly outputting MIDI.

I cannot possibly explain it any clearer than that.
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken


Don't draw it into the ridiculous!

I don't speak about a variation of 3!

I speak about 100 to 127 for instance.

Or 1 to 30.


You are not understanding me correctly. MIDI 2.0 will add variations in between these tiny steps. That is what MIDI 2.0 is, and that is why everyone here is telling you that MIDI 2.0 is not useful for pianists. Your issue with 100-127 is, again, not because of MIDI but because of your digital piano. Your complaint has nothing to do with MIDI. It is not related to MIDI. MIDI is not the cause of your problem. Changing the MIDI standard wont fix your issue.

I cannot possibly explain it any clearer than that.


You were clear and I already understood. I thought you tried to troll me, lol.
What I was asking, is why no digital piano so far I've tried (Includes high end series of Kawai and Yamaha), can do it as good as what is possible, see e piano competition.
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
The problem is that you can't play ppp and then switch to fff.
What does this mean?
Quote

Why is that? Because the resolution/sensors is not fine enough to get nuances between them.
I'm NOT arguing about playing exact 127 'notes', but being able to play ppp and fff and anything between.

Many digitals have the problem, that you can't reach the whole spectrum AT ALL. Not even at will.
You can change the key touch, but this messes with the timbre, and you will have a problem playing ppp then, if you adjust the key touch to be able to play fff!
That's not a mechanical problem or a problem with the sensors or the MIDI resolution. It's just a problem of velocity curve shape...
Some DPs with some piano patches are more difficult to control on low velocities. For example, with normal touch settings, the SK-EX piano sound on my CN37 is more difficult to control than the EX piano sound. How to fix the issue? Three alternative solutions:

1) train your fingers to acquire more sensitivity and develop your technique so that you can be more expressive with the default touch settings. It's very difficult, but it's not impossible. But I agree that it could be very stressful.

or

2) set an heavy touch curve (to get more consistent ppp) + a bright voicing (to get fff layers too, despite the heavy touch curve);

or

3) use a customized touch curve, more convex _/ in the first part but normal (or slightly lighter) in the second half, so you can play ppp more easily without sacrificing the fff.
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
The problem is that you can't play ppp and then switch to fff.
What does this mean?
Quote

Why is that? Because the resolution/sensors is not fine enough to get nuances between them.
I'm NOT arguing about playing exact 127 'notes', but being able to play ppp and fff and anything between.

Many digitals have the problem, that you can't reach the whole spectrum AT ALL. Not even at will.
You can change the key touch, but this messes with the timbre, and you will have a problem playing ppp then, if you adjust the key touch to be able to play fff!
That's not a mechanical problem or a problem with the sensors or the MIDI resolution. It's just a problem of velocity curve shape...
Some DPs with some piano patches are more difficult to control on low velocities. For example, with normal touch settings, the SK-EX piano sound on my CN37 is more difficult to control than the EX piano sound. How to fix the issue? Three alternative solutions:

1) train your fingers to acquire more sensitivity and develop your technique so that you can be more expressive with the default touch settings. It's very difficult, but it's not impossible. But I agree that it could be very stressful.

or

2) set an heavy touch curve (to get more consistent ppp) + a bright voicing (to get fff layers too, despite the heavy touch curve);

or

3) use a customized touch curve, more convex _/ in the first part but normal (or slightly lighter) in the second half, so you can play ppp more easily without sacrificing the fff.



I have tried all three of those things already. Not comparable to the acoustic however... Maybe my RD-2000 is just not to tame in this regard.
The perceived dynamic range on a digital piano is dependent on loudness and timbre. Loudness can often be changed, usually more so in a software piano, but timbre is the result of how the piano was sampled. If you're hitting a key at full velocity and it doesn't sound bright enopugh compared to an acoustic, then the piano was probably not sampled at its highest velocities. This is often the case for hardware DPs which lack the velocity layers of a modern software piano. Similarly for pianissimo at low velocities.
Originally Posted by Smaug
The perceived dynamic range on a digital piano is dependent on loudness and timbre. Loudness can often be changed, usually more so in a software piano, but timbre is the result of how the piano was sampled. If you're hitting a key at full velocity and it doesn't sound bright enopugh compared to an acoustic, then the piano was probably not sampled at its highest velocities. This is often the case for hardware DPs which lack the velocity layers of a modern software piano. Similarly for pianissimo at low velocities.


But can't to get my RD-2000 to be in harmony with an Software Piano. There are countless ways of making velocity curves, but I don't want to mess with it.
Want it be ready in one go at default.
nicknameTaken, this is likely simply by design.

What you're seeking is a somewhat intuitive, but ultimately rejected implementation of velocity sensing. I don't think DP makers are setting as a goal the ability to play all values 1-127. Perhaps it's because the need to account for manufacturing or component tolerances/variances, or are calibrating against some given benchmark (e.g., how to implement variable touch curves), but in the end what ever maker has done is set a range of ppp to fff, which may be 2-100, 20-115, or whatever suits their standard. Whatever range they've chosen, the tone generator is designed to produce the proper velocities for the piano within that range.

It's been the case that there are some velocities that cannot be reached with normal playing, and you have to adjust the touch curve to reach them. This is odd but it does happen, and I can't speak to why such a decision was made.

I do know on my NV-10, with Light or Light+ touch curve, I can hit a low of MIDI velocity 3-5, and a max of 127, and that's why I use Light+ when playing a VST, so I can map as many velocity values as possible to the third party sound engine. But when playing through the built-in sounds, I use normal touch curve, and it feels/sounds just fine to me, even though it maxes out at about 100 playable velocity, that's just what it was designed for.

Really, what you're looking for is a feature of a MIDI controller, and not a digital piano. For example, the VPC-1 has an editor that allows you to set a 1-127 range for the entire instrument, and adjust the upper and lower bounds of that range as well.
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken

What I was asking, is why no digital piano so far I've tried (Includes high end series of Kawai and Yamaha), can do it as good as what is possible, see e piano competition.


That is in part because dynamic markers in sheet music are relative, whereas MIDI velocity is an absolute scale. Velocity 127 means 'as loud as physically possible'. If you play fff you may play very, very loudly but you are not playing as loud as physically possible. So on a scale of 1-127, fff is close to the top, but not all the way. Maybe 110 or 115. 127 would be something incredibly silly, and musically irrelevant.

VSTs work differently. The traditional approach is to link 127 to the loudest possible sample whatever that may be, and 1 to the softest and put everything else in between. So if the piano goes from ppp to fff, fff will be 127. In other words: there is now a mismatch between the DP and the VST: the DP thinks 115 is fff, the VST thinks 127 is fff. When changing velocity curves you can change the shape but also the 'anchor points'. To solve the issue described above we primarily need to change the latter, by telling the VST that when the DP says '115' it actually means '127'.

Originally Posted by nicknameTaken

But can't to get my RD-2000 to be in harmony with an Software Piano. There are countless ways of making velocity curves, but I don't want to mess with it.
Want it be ready in one go at default.


That would depend on the VST, there is no specific one-size-fits-all solution/curve unfortunately. The most important thing is that you set the lowest and highest point correctly, so you get the full range the way you expect it. You can always mess with the shape of the curve between these points as needed.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Although I'm not a proponent of higher resolutions than 127 and agree the classic MIDI is enough, I'm more than certain the internal engines of all digital pianos measure duration between sensor activations and calculate velocity in a very high internal precision, probably used internally by the sound engine too. It's only when they need to send MIDI that they truncate it to a 7-bit value.
Technically speaking, from what I can see in a block diagram of a typical Kawai DP the keyboard controller sends data directly to the sound chip generator. The MIDI-IN/OUT is managed by a separate processor (called MPU, that I think is for Main Processing Unit) that manages also the user interface options, the lcd panel, the pedals, the USB and the Bluetooth. So, it's possible that the data from the keyboard controller have an higher resolution, but that depends from the bus width between the keyboard controller and the sound chip. If it's an 8-bit bus, then the resolution should be that of the MIDI 1.0 standard. Unfortunately, from the block diagram I cannot see how large is the data bus between the keyboard controller and the sound chip.
Let's not forget that most keyboards measure velocity based on the time it takes for a key to trigger two sequential/staggered rubber contact switches.

Just how much precision can we expect from such an arrangement?
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Simple ... just press gently and you get ppp. Press forcefully and you get fff.
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
What if I want to knowingly want to play in the muffled timbre ( ppp), and then in the really bright timbre (fff) ? Depending on the piano...
If your piano cannot oblige it's the fault of the piano. MIDI has nothing at all to do with that.


I see. Then the RD-2000 can't do that. It wasn't as big as an issue on the hybrids I checked on so far, but none of them could reach close to the max value of midi.
The Yamaha CLP 695 for instance had a bump at around 105 to 127, instead of being able to hit inbetween.
The Kawai CA78 did not hit higher than 112.

What do you mean? I actually reached 127 very easily on CA98 on standard settings, had to change keyboard touch to heavy, but even on heavy I can still reach 127 pretty easy. CA78 shouldn't be different in that regard.
My Clav won't go above 110. Maybe it would if I used the hammer of Thor. But not otherwise.
Maybe if I put it on "light" instead of "medium"?
But it doesn't really matter. Not at all. With a VST and a velocity curve app I can do it all.
Originally Posted by Nordomus
I actually reached 127 very easily on CA98 on standard settings, had to change keyboard touch to heavy, but even on heavy I can still reach 127 pretty easy. CA78 shouldn't be different in that regard.
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Let's not forget that most keyboards measure velocity based on the time it takes for a key to trigger two sequential/staggered rubber contact switches.

Just how much precision can we expect from such an arrangement?

With a keyboard controller working at 1MHz, you could get a precision of about 0.000001 seconds between the triggering of a sensor and the next one. I think the sensitivity in our fingers between a forte and what for us is a slightly higher velocity is in the order of a few tenths of a second.
The limitation is not in the electronics. It's in the rubber!
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
The limitation is not in the electronics. It's in the rubber!


Thats only for SLABS, right? Hybrids don't use rubber contacts, do they?

Speaking of which - Lachnit makes non-rubber slabs. But they have their own issues. They use a modified FATAR TP40W, they are probably too light (assuming)
I come from a RD-2000, and want (a little tiny tad) more weight on the keys.

Which brings me back - should I not get a grand piano, and retrofit (Silent System) and have a better overall feel? Or does it not compare?
FYI, "slab" means portable (or stage) piano. Console/furniture DPs like the Yamaha Clavinova, Kawai CA or Roland LX series are not slabs, nor are they hybrids.

But virtually every digital piano (including anything with a FATAR action) that is NOT a hybrid has rubber dome contacts. Hybrids use non-contact optical sensors.
Originally Posted by Gombessa
FYI, "slab" means portable (or stage) piano. Console/furniture DPs like the Yamaha Clavinova, Kawai CA or Roland LX series are not slabs, nor are they hybrids.

But virtually every digital piano (including anything with a FATAR action) that is NOT a hybrid has rubber dome contacts. Hybrids use non-contact optical sensors.


Uhm, Lachnit has modified it, they use light sensor technique, no more rubber domes.
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Originally Posted by Gombessa
FYI, "slab" means portable (or stage) piano. Console/furniture DPs like the Yamaha Clavinova, Kawai CA or Roland LX series are not slabs, nor are they hybrids.

But virtually every digital piano (including anything with a FATAR action) that is NOT a hybrid has rubber dome contacts. Hybrids use non-contact optical sensors.


Uhm, Lachnit has modified it, they use light sensor technique, no more rubber domes.


iirc... they claim they don't use it. Don't nail me on it.
Originally Posted by Nordomus
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Simple ... just press gently and you get ppp. Press forcefully and you get fff.
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
What if I want to knowingly want to play in the muffled timbre ( ppp), and then in the really bright timbre (fff) ? Depending on the piano...
If your piano cannot oblige it's the fault of the piano. MIDI has nothing at all to do with that.


I see. Then the RD-2000 can't do that. It wasn't as big as an issue on the hybrids I checked on so far, but none of them could reach close to the max value of midi.
The Yamaha CLP 695 for instance had a bump at around 105 to 127, instead of being able to hit inbetween.
The Kawai CA78 did not hit higher than 112.

What do you mean? I actually reached 127 very easily on CA98 on standard settings, had to change keyboard touch to heavy, but even on heavy I can still reach 127 pretty easy. CA78 shouldn't be different in that regard.


Apparently, playing with much force doesn't translate to 127. But much velocity does. Had the keys a better action I may be able to accelerate it better. But like this I must really repeatedly struck them fast and with low amount of force to get this value.
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken

iirc... they claim they don't use it. Don't nail me on it.


Fair enough. There are a lot of one-off custom builds out there (including hybrids that don't use optical sensors) so you can expect an exception to every rule. The point is just that rubber dome sensors have nothing to do with a piano being a slab (nor is it at all limited to slabs), it's simply the de facto technology implementation for nearly all digital pianos regardless of form factor (including cabinet/console models).
Huh? Isn't force required to produce velocity?
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Apparently, playing with much force doesn't translate to 127. But much velocity does. Had the keys a better action I may be able to accelerate it better. But like this I must really repeatedly struck them fast and with low amount of force to get this value.
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Huh? Isn't force required to produce velocity?
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Apparently, playing with much force doesn't translate to 127. But much velocity does. Had the keys a better action I may be able to accelerate it better. But like this I must really repeatedly struck them fast and with low amount of force to get this value.


It doesnt correlate linearly. Picture a hydraulic press pressing down a key with immense force but at slow speed, the volume will be very low.
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Huh? Isn't force required to produce velocity?
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Apparently, playing with much force doesn't translate to 127. But much velocity does. Had the keys a better action I may be able to accelerate it better. But like this I must really repeatedly struck them fast and with low amount of force to get this value.


Not at all. With my RD-2000 I can only reach 127 with high velocity but low amounts of force, using the momentum.
When you use force on the RD-2000, all you get is like 100.
Look, pick two keys, e.g C and G, press both really fast repeatedly.
You don't press them with much force, but fast.

This way I can reach 127 on Normal.

With mere force I can't reach 127, may would even break the keyboard this way.
But because of the way it works, I can't really make use of fff by playing just with more force, as it only works for small repeated bursts. I don't hit the bottom much with this technique.

How to explain... You quickly press down the key and immediately lift your hand.

EDIT: Sorry, I mistook key down velocity for key up velocity
Nope. A hydraulic press pushing down with immense force will move at high speed.
If it's moving instead at slow speed then the force will be small.
Don't equate "big hydraulic press" with high force. It's capable of high force, yes. But it's also capable of low force.
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Huh? Isn't force required to produce velocity?
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Apparently, playing with much force doesn't translate to 127. But much velocity does. Had the keys a better action I may be able to accelerate it better. But like this I must really repeatedly struck them fast and with low amount of force to get this value.
It doesnt correlate linearly. Picture a hydraulic press pressing down a key with immense force but at slow speed, the volume will be very low.
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Nope. A hydraulic press pushing down with immense force will move at high speed.
If it's moving instead at slow speed then the force will be small.


That seems not true to me.

Strong force at a velocity too slow to get a sound out of a piano:
https://youtu.be/JyA1lBJl_qM?t=60
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Nope. A hydraulic press pushing down with immense force will move at high speed.
If it's moving instead at slow speed then the force will be small.


That seems not true to me.

Strong force at a velocity too slow to get a sound out of a piano:
https://youtu.be/JyA1lBJl_qM?t=60


Sorry, I must laugh, Haha
Not sure I understand, but always happy to entertain. :P
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Huh? Isn't force required to produce velocity?
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Apparently, playing with much force doesn't translate to 127. But much velocity does. Had the keys a better action I may be able to accelerate it better. But like this I must really repeatedly struck them fast and with low amount of force to get this value.


It doesnt correlate linearly. Picture a hydraulic press pressing down a key with immense force but at slow speed, the volume will be very low.


F=ma, so I'm not sure what it means for a press to use "immense force" at a slow speed ...
Originally Posted by TheophilusCarter
F=ma, so I'm not sure what it means for a press to use "immense force" at a slow speed ...


Hugely massed fingers? eek
Originally Posted by OldTinho
Originally Posted by TheophilusCarter
F=ma, so I'm not sure what it means for a press to use "immense force" at a slow speed ...


Hugely massed fingers? eek


laugh laugh laugh
You can have a force of thousands of PSI at a velocity below triggering a note. Conversely you can have a miniscule PSI and trigger fff. Check the vid, your finger can move far faster yet lacks the force to break solid metal. Also, piano volume is based on velocity not acceleration.
The only way you would have a great force when pressing a piano key would be with large mass i.e. fingers & arms, high acceleration or huge resistance from the key itself.
Originally Posted by OldTinho
The only way you would have a great force when pressing a piano key would be with large mass i.e. fingers & arms, high acceleration or huge resistance from the key itself.


Maybe it's a translation thing. What is it called that allows that press to destroy metal at such slow speeds?
The metal in the compression test is providing a resistance force in the opposite direction, so the machine applies a greater force to overcome it. if there was no resistance force and the press applied the same amount of pressure as if there were resistance, the acceleration of the press would be much greater.

So acceleration would be the only variable when pressing a piano key with the same finger; a difference in acceleration would result in a difference in force.

How force is exactly translated into hammer movement is a subject I know very little of, CyberGene will definitely be able to explain better being both an engineer and part-time piano-action tinkerer.
Originally Posted by OldTinho
The metal in the compression test is providing a resistance force in the opposite direction, so the machine applies a greater force to overcome it. if there was no resistance force and the press applied the same amount of pressure as if there were resistance, the acceleration of the press would be much greater.

So acceleration would be the only variable when pressing a piano key with the same finger; a difference in acceleration would result in a difference in force.

How force is exactly translated into hammer movement is a subject I know very little of, CyberGene will definitely be able to explain better being both an engineer and part-time piano-action tinkerer.



Aha, thanks! Guess you'll be surprised to know my background is not in STEM. :P
Mine neither, I dropped out of engineering 😄
I explained these things recently in another thread, need to find them but basically to reach certain velocity from rest everything needs to accelerate first and acceleration is caused by force, this is the second principle of Newton. I’ll find my post tomorrow and link it.

But it’s not as simple as that. There are biophysics considerations and even myology (the study of muscles) since our muscles can’t exercise constant/max force at any moment or at will, they need at least a slight contraction first, it’s an acceleration by itself. Imagine a loose spring, you need to first extend it before it starts exerting opposite force. I’m not a biophysicist and can’t cite exact terms and numbers. But what you need to know is resting your fingers on the key surface and trying to apply maximum force suddenly is difficult. For the time your forearm muscles contract enough, the key will have reached bottom. Which is why when people need to play loudly they throw their entire hand from above the keys which will create enough momentum and initial force at first key touch.
Wait are we still talking about new Kawai pianos? smile
and what are the differences between GF COMPACT and GF III beside length???
P.S. on the photo GF compact uses white plastic and GF III black plastic. is that just colour or there are some differences in the material etc??
@Nordomus, I was asking myself the same, lol. Yesterday I again went into a piano store . This one only sold Yamaha DP’s and acqoustic piano’s (Yamaha, Petrof, Schimmel and some more different brands) too bad no Kawai’s here. Of all the yamaha’s the CLP 685 felt and sounder (to me) most close to all acqoustics. I am soooooo interested in user reviews of the new Kawai CA 79 and CA 99. How “realistic” do they play and sound (not using headphones), compared to acqoustic. Is it possible to express your mood and feelings into these new digital Kawai’s? New users of Kawai CA79/99 please sent us what your heart tells you when playing your new instrument.
Originally Posted by tristan34849
and what are the differences between GF COMPACT and GF III beside length???


Advantages of GFIII over GFC:
- Longer keys, longer key pivot
- Ebony Touch key surfaces
- 88-key graded counterweights
- Firmer hammer cushion material
- Improved let-off feeling

I expect there may be more, but these are the main points that come to mind.

Originally Posted by tristan34849
P.S. on the photo GF compact uses white plastic and GF III black plastic. is that just colour or there are some differences in the material etc??


I'm afraid I don't know.

Kind regards,
James
x
Originally Posted by Erik54
Is it possible to express your mood and feelings into these new digital Kawai’s?


Don't worry, you can do that even on a Yamaha p45. It's fun to see the contrast between this forum and r/piano. People here delve really deep into technical details which is cool, but dont let it confuse you: you can express yourself no problem on a €3000 instrument if you yourself have the skills.
Originally Posted by Erik54
@Nordomus, I was asking myself the same, lol. Yesterday I again went into a piano store . This one only sold Yamaha DP’s and acqoustic piano’s (Yamaha, Petrof, Schimmel and some more different brands) too bad no Kawai’s here. Of all the yamaha’s the CLP 685 felt and sounder (to me) most close to all acqoustics. I am soooooo interested in user reviews of the new Kawai CA 79 and CA 99. How “realistic” do they play and sound (not using headphones), compared to acqoustic. Is it possible to express your mood and feelings into these new digital Kawai’s?

Try CA98 if you can. While CLP 685 sounds very good soundboard in Kawai pianos sounds amazing and it has good keyboard and sound engine so of course you can express yourself with that smile
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
[...]you can express yourself no problem on a €3000 instrument if you yourself have the skills.
If you have the skills you can express yourself even on a €500-600 instrument.



However I would not go lower than that, because then IMHO they begin to sound like toys...
Originally Posted by magicpiano
If you have the skills you can express yourself even on a €500-600 instrument.



However I would not go lower than that, because then IMHO they begin to sound like toys...


Sure, that is why I said a P45 would work as well. smile
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
Originally Posted by magicpiano
If you have the skills you can express yourself even on a €500-600 instrument.


However I would not go lower than that, because then IMHO they begin to sound like toys...


Sure, that is why I said a P45 would work as well. smile

I remember buying the Yamaha P105 many years ago. This video convinced me then that the piano is amazing, I still come back to it after all these years for a casual listening experience.



After all these years, I still think that this recording is amazing. You can safely assume that when my piano was delivered home, me playing it didn't have the same effect! eek Bottom line: any piano can sound and feel right with the right person playing it! The harsh reality may be that amateur pianists ( myself included ) tend to compensate lack of technique with pricier instruments ! laugh
Originally Posted by tudor33sud

I remember buying the Yamaha P105 many years ago. This video convinced me then that the piano is amazing, I still come back to it after all these years for a casual listening experience ... After all these years, I still think that this recording is amazing. You can safely assume that when my piano was delivered home, me playing it didn't have the same effect! eek Bottom line: any piano can sound and feel right with the right person playing it! The harsh reality may be that amateur pianists ( myself included ) tend to compensate lack of technique with pricier instruments ! laugh


I think about this video and my Casio CDP!

Originally Posted by tudor33sud

After all these years, I still think that this recording is amazing. You can safely assume that when my piano was delivered home, me playing it didn't have the same effect! eek Bottom line: any piano can sound and feel right with the right person playing it! The harsh reality may be that amateur pianists ( myself included ) tend to compensate lack of technique with pricier instruments ! laugh


This is so me. There is no hiding your lack of technique with one of these cheaper instruments, mostly I can't hide my lack of technique at all, but better and pricier instruments do help to make the sound a little more pleasant to listen to especially for us lowly skilled ones.
We've been through this already. An Italian pianist was featured in a similar Casio video where she struggled playing a Liszt piece and I went as far as pinpoint to a PW member which particular notes were wrong. She was apparently not in control of the piano and at the same time she is a famous pianist. So, when a piano is difficult to control by a master or even when it sounds OK like in this last video, it doesn't mean the instrument is good. Maybe the guy is at his limits to deliver something that sounds OK to us but would be much better on an acoustic piano.

And BTW, I don't get the argument at all. A virtuoso can be playing on a haircomb (you know, with thin paper, blowing through it) and be able to move peoples' hearts but that doesn't mean I should not buy a good piano.
Originally Posted by CyberGene

And BTW, I don't get the argument at all. A virtuoso can be playing on a haircomb (you know, with thin paper, blowing through it) and be able to move peoples' hearts but that doesn't mean I should not buy a good piano.


It absolutely means we should stop scaring potential new players with stories that are completely irrelevant for beginners. When a beginner reads what we posts and concludes that a €3000 instrument may be 'bad' and not allow expression of emotion something is very much wrong.

Have you stopped to consider that what some folks here consider a decent piano is completely unobtainable for many prospective starters? And that spreading this talk about 'digital actions are bad be size of escapement' and so on encourages people to not bother at all if they can't afford these massively expensive luxury objects that people here apparently casually buy?

To me, that absolutely is a problem.
Originally Posted by sleutelbos

It absolutely means we should stop scaring potential new players with stories that are completely irrelevant for beginners. When a beginner reads what we posts and concludes that a €3000 instrument may be 'bad' and not allow expression of emotion something is very much wrong.

Have you stopped to consider that what some folks here consider a decent piano is completely unobtainable for many prospective starters? And that spreading this talk about 'digital actions are bad be size of escapement' and so on encourages people to not bother at all if they can't afford these massively expensive luxury objects that people here apparently casually buy?

To me, that absolutely is a problem.

So, you think I should express my opinion with a consideration how not to hurt the feelings of people who can’t afford an instrument I think is better and I should take care for beginners not to be scared? Is this some new “social awareness” policy recommendation on PW I’ve missed?’
Did you miss the “Social Awareness’ memo?
I can fax it to you (for a nominal fee). wink
Originally Posted by CyberGene

So, you think I should express my opinion with a consideration how not to hurt the feelings of people who can’t afford an instrument I think is better and I should take care for beginners not to be scared? Is this some new “social awareness” policy recommendation on PW I’ve missed?’


It's one thing to express an opinion. It's another to plague the forum with the same personal propaganda wherever there's a space to insert it.
BTW, since there are people who often report me on every little occasion of offtopic, let me clarify I was responding to the Casio video and the argument about how even a cheap piano can sound great in good hands. I don’t see how this has anything to do with CA79/99 pianos since they are very fine instruments and are not cheap. I haven’t commented in this thread anything about escapement and how CA pianos are “bad”. It was implied by another member who brought some quotes from another thread.

I think the new CA-series will be great pianos for even advanced pianist and I welcome every little addition and upgrade that have been mentioned. I’m done with the other (collateral) discussions.

P.S. dire_tonic, if you believe my “propaganda” is against the forum rules, feel free to report me.
Honestly, I'd find it self-demeaning to report anyone in PW.

How about just rowing back on the elitism a trifle? At the end of the day, none of us here are anything special.
Originally Posted by dire tonic
Honestly, I'd find it self-demeaning to report anyone in PW.

How about just rowing back on the elitism a trifle? At the end of the day, none of us here are anything special.


I’ve created one thread to discuss my analysis of piano actions and advantages of escapement in particular. I didn’t create it to show off, nor to demonstrate an elitism but to show my discovery and theory. It was a simple realization I made by observing an old grand piano keyboard action. I DID NOT bring that topic here in the CA99 thread, another member did. I also don’t believe what I do is “personal propaganda” and “plaguing” every possible thread. It’s an exaggeration.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
It’s an exaggeration.


Well, mindful of your thread explaining why digital actions are bad, I'm sure you'll appreciate the irony.

I think it would be helpful if you could modify the title of that thread.
Originally Posted by CyberGene

So, you think I should express my opinion with a consideration how not to hurt the feelings of people who can’t afford an instrument I think is better and I should take care for beginners not to be scared? Is this some new “social awareness” policy recommendation on PW I’ve missed?’


I think it is generally a good idea to communicate in such a way people are not needlessly confused. It is easy to see why someone would read your detailed mini-essay on the mechanical workings of a piano, conclude you are an expert, note you titled it '[...] why digital actions are bad' and believe that to you, a clear expert, all digital actions are bad and as such not suitable instruments (never mind for an advanced pianist). I know that isn't your opinion, and I know you don't intend to scare people away from starting to play piano. I get that it is difficult to communicate without ever causing confusion when we are all from different countries. But we can prevent the more egregious misunderstandings and it wouldn't hurt if we'd all strive towards that. smile To be clear: I have nothing against you or your opinions (which I find very insightful!).

So as pretty much everyone in this topic agrees, including you and I: Erik has no reason to worry about being able to learn to play and express himself on a high-end digital, and has no reason to worry about injuring himself due to the action not being acoustic. smile
Much ado about nothing.
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Much ado about nothing.


+1 whole heartedly.
CyberGene, what a drama magnet!
Can we now go back to talking about the CA99 and CA79?
That's no fun ... wink

Seriously, I'm really curious to see an official USD price somewhere, as I'm seriously considering the 79 later this year. If anyone sees anything, don't be shy about sharing!
Just found this new YT video of a recording of CA99 on a stage. Wish it was recorded with a better mic but nice still.

https://youtu.be/KutWdVZv2n4
CyberGene your thread is fine and very interesting.
And it has connection with this thread. The keyboard is the most important thing to learn the piano.
The more you are a beginner, the more you need a good keyboard action.
Originally Posted by Boboulus
Just found this new YT video of a recording of CA99 on a stage. Wish it was recorded with a better mic but nice still.



The interesting thing of that video is that the pianist uses often the left pedal when the piece is very slow. I think it's just a reflex of what she would do on a real acoustic grand piano to make the timbre more mellow (una-corda), but IMHO that's almost useless on current DPs, considering that AFAIK they haven't una-corda samples and they don't even try to model them. The effect of the left pedal on most DPs usually is just a limiter on the max velociy you can reach. So, it could be useful only when you play fast passages and you don't want to be too much bright but that was not the case in the video...
Originally Posted by magicpiano
The effect of the left pedal on most DPs usually is just a limiter on the max velociy you can reach. So, it could be useful only when you play fast passages and you don't want to be too much bright but that was not the case in the video...


I don't think this is accurate. The una corda on DPs is certainly imperfect, but it does more than limit the max volume. It should also lower the relative volume for each key strike made while the pedal is depressed. So the same strike would have been m with the una corda off would be mp while the pedal is down. Some DPs may also apply a de-brilliance filter to simulate the strike on softer felts too.
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by magicpiano
The effect of the left pedal on most DPs usually is just a limiter on the max velociy you can reach. So, it could be useful only when you play fast passages and you don't want to be too much bright but that was not the case in the video...


I don't think this is accurate. The una corda on DPs is certainly imperfect, but it does more than limit the max volume. It should also lower the relative volume for each key strike made while the pedal is depressed. So the same strike would have been m with the una corda off would be mp while the pedal is down. Some DPs may also apply a de-brilliance filter to simulate the strike on softer felts too.

Exactly. That's how my DP behaves (so it should also apply to the NV5 and CA78/98, so likely also the CA79/99). Pressing the left pedal immediately gives a lower volume with a softer timbre, when otherwise the playing force (=velocity) remains the same. It is definitely not just a limiter.
Even my twelve-year-old Clav behaves in correct manner. I don't think there are separate una corda samples. But the behavior is not that of a limiter.
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by magicpiano
The effect of the left pedal on most DPs usually is just a limiter on the max velociy you can reach. So, it could be useful only when you play fast passages and you don't want to be too much bright but that was not the case in the video...


I don't think this is accurate. The una corda on DPs is certainly imperfect, but it does more than limit the max volume. It should also lower the relative volume for each key strike made while the pedal is depressed. So the same strike would have been m with the una corda off would be mp while the pedal is down. Some DPs may also apply a de-brilliance filter to simulate the strike on softer felts too.

I talked about velocity, not volume.
I will try to better explain my reasoning: when you press the left pedal, the limiter acts on the touch curve, i.e. the velocity of 127 (and, proportionally, all the previous values) will be mapped to a lower velocity value. Now, being that the same touch curve in all DPs maps the velocity to both the timbre and the volume, when you press the left pedal of course you will feel a volume change too. It's the same result of pressing the keys with less velocity. No other alterations. No filters. So, you don't feel "una-corda" sounds, but just the normal piano sounds played with less velocity (and that's a different thing... Try on a real grand piano to use the left pedal and then let me know if it sounds like when you press that pedal on your DP...). And in the case of my DP, the default behavior of the left pedal is so "subtle" that you hear no changes in volume or timbre until you press the keys very hard. Fortunately I can make this behavior much more pronounced in the Virtual Technician options of my DP.
But this is a very cheap implementation and I was expecting something more from current DPs hardware.

P.S.: I guess that if that pianist in the above video not used the left pedal, the result would have been the same, because she uses it just in slow passages, where the left pedal effect is almost insignificant on current Kawai DPs (of course, at default options... If you maximize the "Soft-Pedal Depth" value in the Virtual Technician options the result would be different).
Originally Posted by magicpiano

I talked about velocity, not volume.
I will try to better explain my reasoning: when you press the left pedal, the limiter acts on the touch curve, i.e. the velocity of 127 (and, proportionally, all the previous values) will be mapped to a lower velocity value.


So, technically speaking this isn't quite right, either, but I think we're just having a language misunderstanding. The recorded velocity doesn't map lower with the una corda down, a strike at midi note-on 100 stays at 100 if struck with the same velocity with una corda. But if you mean that the piano then applies a filter (an una corda filter) that plays the note *as if it was* struck at a lower velocity, than I think we're all in agreement, and that's how I describe the effect above. Some DPs and VSTs may go further and decrease the brilliance of that note to change the timbre to account for the softer, uncompacted felt of an una corda strike, others don't.
I would be interested to know what Kawai James could add to this topic.
EDIT: Responding to magicpiano, but others above where quicker while I typed (or rather, while I was afk).

So what you describe (if that is indeed what is happening) is a velocity *shift*, not a velocity *limit* (as enforced by a limiter).

"Limiter" implies that there actually is no difference in sound for most velocities and that you are just no longer able to reach the top velocities, because the limiter limits you in that range. Which obviously isn't what is happening and which also doesn't seem to be what you mean. So describing it as a limiter is rather confusing.
Synthogy Ivory II ACD includes una Corda samples. You can hear the switch to una corda at 8 seconds in for this track, and it switches back and forth, the last 12 seconds are all una corda as well.

Schumann pleading 👶
While we were so far only talking about limiters (or shifts), I also wanted to comment on the initial post that started this:
Originally Posted by magicpiano
The interesting thing of that video is that the pianist uses often the left pedal when the piece is very slow. I think it's just a reflex of what she would do on a real acoustic grand piano to make the timbre more mellow (una-corda), but IMHO that's almost useless on current DPs, considering that AFAIK they haven't una-corda samples and they don't even try to model them.

I don't agree with that, i.e. that she is just using the left pedal out of a reflex. I think the timbre change when she uses it is quite easy to hear (for example at 1:18). Sure, one can argue if that timbre change is a good simulation of the una corda effect or not, but seeing that this effect varies widely between different acoustics too (and can be very subtle, or almost non-existing too - I remember being at a recital where the pianist used una corda copiously during a Liszt piece, and as I had a good view of his foot I tried to hear its effect, but couldn't - and that was an acoustic grand!) such an argument would be rather futile. In any case, I'm sure she was using the pedal consciously and was aware of the tonal change it produced.
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by magicpiano

I talked about velocity, not volume.
I will try to better explain my reasoning: when you press the left pedal, the limiter acts on the touch curve, i.e. the velocity of 127 (and, proportionally, all the previous values) will be mapped to a lower velocity value.


So, technically speaking this isn't quite right, either, but I think we're just having a language misunderstanding. The recorded velocity doesn't map lower with the una corda down, a strike at midi note-on 100 stays at 100 if struck with the same velocity with una corda. But if you mean that the piano then applies a filter (an una corda filter) that plays the note *as if it was* struck at a lower velocity, than I think we're all in agreement, and that's how I describe the effect above. Some DPs and VSTs may go further and decrease the brilliance of that note to change the timbre to account for the softer, uncompacted felt of an una corda strike, others don't.

Yes, the MIDI velocity that the DP outputs to an external device is always the same, even with the left pedal pressed, and this is the right behavior, because it's the VST that has to decide how it has to simulate the effect of the 1-corda.

What I meant in my previous post is that when you press the left pedal, the DP of course sends the usual MIDI velocity corresponding to the velocity of your key press (preceded by a midi signal for the left pedal pressed), but I think the DP piano engine "internally" tries to emulate the 1-corda effect simply by using a lower velocity value to generate the sound of that note.

For example: let's suppose the pianist presses the left pedal and keep it pressed. The DP sends to an eventual external midi device a midi signal for the left pedal pressed. Then the pianist plays a note at velocity 100. The DP sends a midi velocity data of 100 to the external device, but internally its sound generator chip generates the note as if the velocity was (100 - x%), where 'x%' depends on the value of the "Soft-Pedal Depth" option in the Virtual Technician menu. I'm pretty sure this is what happens on my DP, considering that the sound timbre+volume I hear with the left pedal pressed is exactly the same of a note played at a slightly lower velocity with left pedal raised.
Originally Posted by JoBert
While we were so far only talking about limiters (or shifts), I also wanted to comment on the initial post that started this:
Originally Posted by magicpiano
The interesting thing of that video is that the pianist uses often the left pedal when the piece is very slow. I think it's just a reflex of what she would do on a real acoustic grand piano to make the timbre more mellow (una-corda), but IMHO that's almost useless on current DPs, considering that AFAIK they haven't una-corda samples and they don't even try to model them.

I don't agree with that, i.e. that she is just using the left pedal out of a reflex. I think the timbre change when she uses it is quite easy to hear (for example at 1:18). [...]
IMHO you hear timbral changes there because she plays with much more delicacy when she presses the left pedal... Look at her fingers in those passages... When she presses the left pedal, those passages are played slowly and at a low velocity so I'm pretty sure the left pedal would do almost nothing to the sound in those circumstances (unless she maximized the Soft-Pedal Depth option in the Virtual Technician). At least that's my experience with my Kawai DP. Maybe that instrument behaves differently.
Originally Posted by KevinM
Synthogy Ivory II ACD includes una Corda samples. You can hear the switch to una corda at 8 seconds in for this track, and it switches back and forth, the last 12 seconds are all una corda as well.

Schumann pleading 👶
Yes, I hear that. That's a nice timbral change...
I am not sure to understood everything, but I am sure una corda (that means "one string") produces timbral change, and not because of the way the pianist plays.
It is because when you push this left pedal in a grand piano, there is a device that shifts the mechanism slightly to one side, so that the hammers do not strike all of the strings, and strickly speaking, the hammers are supposed to strike one string (una corda).

So the timbre is different. As this is impossible in an upright, the left pedal just soften the volume by different ways depending the model, generally by reducing the hammer-string distance. But It is not an una corda mechanism, and so there is no timbral change.

It is indicated in some scores , for example Brahms Rhapsodie number 2 (op. 79) (it is written una corda and simultaneously sotto voce, and Ped. also, so it is necessary to play soft, and to use the two pedals at tthe same time)

So, if we want to play this piece as it is written, we must use a grand piano, not an upright.

I worked this piece on my ES8 and uses the left pedal, that is possible to modify the effect (parameter SoftPedalDep from 1 to 10). The only effect is to reduce the volume, so it is usable but is not exactly as a grand piano.

It would be very easy to change the sound on my ES8, but Kawai decided to not do it. Why ?

And I don't know how it is on the others DP, for example CA98 (is there a difference in the sound ?), and in hybrids ? (I will know when my N1X will arrive)
There’s a thread where we discussed una-corda behavior, Tyrone can help locating it smile Even on Pianoteq it’s kind of too subtle and people wanted it to be more pronounced and Philippe (the creator of Pianoteq and also a piano technician) discussed how una-corda is implemented/regulated on real pianos.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
There’s a thread where we discussed una-corda behavior, Tyrone can help locating it smile Even on Pianoteq it’s kind of too subtle and people wanted it to be more pronounced and Philippe (the creator of Pianoteq and also a piano technician) discussed how una-corda is implemented/regulated on real pianos.


Here : http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...s-on-new-digital-pianos.html#Post2872261
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Originally Posted by JoBert
don't agree with that, i.e. that she is just using the left pedal out of a reflex. I think the timbre change when she uses it is quite easy to hear (for example at 1:18). [...]
IMHO you hear timbral changes there because she plays with much more delicacy when she presses the left pedal...

Well, I don't think so (that only her changed finger force is the reason for the changed tone), but it is of course an argument that can never be proven either way, since we just can't know this only from looking at and listening to the video. We can only state what we *think* about it, and why. And as for that *why*, you give your experience with your Kawai DP as the reason:
Originally Posted by magicpiano
I'm pretty sure the left pedal would do almost nothing to the sound in those circumstances (unless she maximized the Soft-Pedal Depth option in the Virtual Technician). At least that's my experience with my Kawai DP. Maybe that instrument behaves differently.

I don't want to step on your toes, but please consider, that your experience with the CA37, and its >10 years old PHI sound engine, is likely not a good base to extrapolate from when talking about Kawai's newest sound engine, the improved SK-EX Rendering in the CAx9 generation.
As you brought "experience with my Kawai DP" into play, allow me to do so too: From my experience with *my* Kawai DP (which has almost the same sound engine as the CA99, whose engine is an improved version, where one can reasonably expect that the una corda effect is at least the same if not better than on my piano that has the first version of that sound engine), the tonal change that you hear in the video is *exactly* what I hear on my piano when I use the left pedal. So no, I do not think the sound is just because she plays more "delicately", and no, I don't think that the effect of the pedal "would do almost nothing to the sound". I just have to try on my own piano to hear that this is not so (and my VT setting for the soft pedal depth is the default of 5).
Originally Posted by BachToTheFuture
[...]I worked this piece on my ES8 and uses the left pedal, that is possible to modify the effect (parameter SoftPedalDep from 1 to 10). The only effect is to reduce the volume, so it is usable but is not exactly as a grand piano.
Unless the ES8 has a different implementation compared to my CN37, it doesn't just change the volume. It changes the timbre too, but not as one would expect from a real 1-corda timbre. It's just like when you press the keys with less velocity.
Quote


It would be very easy to change the sound on my ES8, but Kawai decided to not do it. Why ?
Modeling a 1-corda sound timbre requires more computational power... Or just another sample set of 88 "1-corda notes" x "num. of velocity layers" (that would require to double the ROM size). The manufacturer did neither of them: I'm pretty sure it just made the piano generate internally a lower velocity sound! Why? Because it's easier and cheaper to implement it in this way.
Quote


And I don't know how it is on the others DP, for example CA98 (is there a difference in the sound ?), and in hybrids ? (I will know when my N1X will arrive)
I don't hear 1-corda timbre in videos of the CA98/99 when the pianist press the left pedal. I guess they stll continue to use the easy route.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
There’s a thread where we discussed una-corda behavior, Tyrone can help locating it smile Even on Pianoteq it’s kind of too subtle and people wanted it to be more pronounced and Philippe (the creator of Pianoteq and also a piano technician) discussed how una-corda is implemented/regulated on real pianos.


Originally Posted by BachToTheFuture
Originally Posted by CyberGene
There’s a thread where we discussed una-corda behavior, Tyrone can help locating it smile Even on Pianoteq it’s kind of too subtle and people wanted it to be more pronounced and Philippe (the creator of Pianoteq and also a piano technician) discussed how una-corda is implemented/regulated on real pianos.


Here : http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...s-on-new-digital-pianos.html#Post2872261


Yes, coincidently it was a thread opened by me! laugh I had almost forgotten it...
Originally Posted by JoBert
[...]Well, I don't think so (that only her changed finger force is the reason for the changed tone), but it is of course an argument that can never be proven either way, since we just can't know this only from looking at and listening to the video. We can only state what we *think* about it, and why. And as for that *why*, you give your experience with your Kawai DP as the reason[...]
Of course, that's just my experience with my DP, and I can just speculate on what happens on other models considering what I see and hear in the videos and what their owners say.
Quote
[...]the tonal change that you hear in the video is *exactly* what I hear on my piano when I use the left pedal. So no, I do not think the sound is just because she plays more "delicately", and no, I don't think that the effect of the pedal "would do almost nothing to the sound". I just have to try on my own piano to hear that this is not so (and my VT setting for the soft pedal depth is the default of 5).
To better understand what your DP engine does with the left pedal pressed, try to maximize the Soft Pedal Depth option and then try to play a single forte note. Then let me know if you hear the exact same timbre you would hear playing at a lower velocity without pressing the left pedal, or you feel there is something more in the timbre that you cannot achieve just by playing softer. In my case I hear just the same sound of a lower velocity touch.

P.S.: if the latest SK-EX Rendering Engine does a better job with the 1-corda emulation, don't you think Kawai would have publicized it a lot? I don't see any reference to a better 1-corda emulation compared to previous engines... It would be very strange if they improved something and didn't advertise it...
Originally Posted by magicpiano
To better understand what your DP engine does with the left pedal pressed, ...

I have no interest in such an experiment (for the sake of this discussion) because I never talked about the question "is the una corda sound a good simulation or not?". I leave such taste-based discussions to others.

What I'm talking about is your assertion, that the una corda simulation essentially does nothing, and that therefore the pianist's use of the left pedal was a pure reflex.
Originally Posted by magicpiano
I'm pretty sure the left pedal would do almost nothing to the sound in those circumstances (unless she maximized the Soft-Pedal Depth option in the Virtual Technician).

Originally Posted by magicpiano
I think it's just a reflex of what she would do on a real acoustic grand piano

The first statement is provably false (the left pedal noticeably changes the sound in the SK-EX Rendering engine) and I therefore assume that the second statement (the assumption about the reflex) is also incorrect.
The experiment is not to judge if the 1-corda emulation is bad or not, but to let you (and me) better understand what your piano engine does when you play with the left pedal pressed, considering that I can just try on my CN37. But if you are not interested in that, that's fine.

Quote
I'm pretty sure the left pedal would do almost nothing to the sound in those circumstances.
The bold text was very important there... If you leave it out then you are changing the meaning of my sentence and of course it becomes absolutely false. Of course you can argue that it's false even with the bold text included, but that's not a fact, just your opinion. In the same manner all I said is just my opinion, considering that I don't have the source code of the algorithm Kawai uses when you press the left pedal, but I can only speculate relying on my experience of software developer, beginner pianist and on my hearing (and on what I read on these forums).
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by magicpiano

I talked about velocity, not volume.
I will try to better explain my reasoning: when you press the left pedal, the limiter acts on the touch curve, i.e. the velocity of 127 (and, proportionally, all the previous values) will be mapped to a lower velocity value.


So, technically speaking this isn't quite right, either, but I think we're just having a language misunderstanding. The recorded velocity doesn't map lower with the una corda down, a strike at midi note-on 100 stays at 100 if struck with the same velocity with una corda. But if you mean that the piano then applies a filter (an una corda filter) that plays the note *as if it was* struck at a lower velocity, than I think we're all in agreement, and that's how I describe the effect above. Some DPs and VSTs may go further and decrease the brilliance of that note to change the timbre to account for the softer, uncompacted felt of an una corda strike, others don't.

Una corda pedal effect should NOT just lower output velocity on digital piano, if it does then it's not good digital piano.
Also differences in playing with left pedal pressed are always subtle(depending on instrument they might be bigger) but they are definitely there, no matter how loud you play and it sounds pretty well on Kawai and all other top digital pianos.
I tried a lot, but my ES8 is not able to do anything better than to decrease the volume.
That is probably not used by a lot of people because you need the three pedal unit.
The sostenuto works well.
I hope it's better with the 9 series.
Just tried with my ancient p140. Even that one clearly uses an LPF to change timbre.
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Quote
I'm pretty sure the left pedal would do almost nothing to the sound in those circumstances.
The bold text was very important there... If you leave it out then you are changing the meaning of my sentence and of course it becomes absolutely false.

Why are you accusing me of changing the meaning by leaving something out, when I didn't? I obviously included this part in my quote. I didn't leave it out.
Quote
Of course you can argue that it's false even with the bold text included, but that's not a fact, just your opinion.

I beg to differ. The left pedal changes the sound of the piano, using the SK-EX Rendering engine. That is not an opinion, but a fact, that can be easily verified, just by sitting down at the piano and trying it out. The sound change is subtle if you already play with pp velocity, and very obvious if you play with ff velocity. But even at pp it is still there. That's not simply an opinion.

It also changes the sound using the HI-XL engine:

Originally Posted by BachToTheFuture
I tried a lot, but my ES8 is not able to do anything better than to decrease the volume...

If I try this with the Sound Mode engine (HI-XL, same as your ES8), I can still hear a difference other than just the volume. Try this: Play C3 at ff, staccato. Play it hard enough so that it starts getting that metallic "twang"in the timbre. Repeat at 100 BPM or so. Keep playing, now press the left pedal. The sound not only is reduced in volume, but also gets mellower, with less of that "twang" in it.
Originally Posted by BachToTheFuture

That is probably not used by a lot of people because you need the three pedal unit.

Not really, you can use a second pedal connected to the AUX-pedal (at least I did so om my Yamaha p-120).
Originally Posted by JoBert
Why are you accusing me of changing the meaning by leaving something out, when I didn't? I obviously included this part in my quote. I didn't leave it out.
Sorry, that was my mistake in reading.
Quote

Quote
Of course you can argue that it's false even with the bold text included, but that's not a fact, just your opinion.

I beg to differ. The left pedal changes the sound of the piano, using the SK-EX Rendering engine. That is not an opinion, but a fact, that can be easily verified, just by sitting down at the piano and trying it out. The sound change is subtle if you already play with pp velocity, and very obvious if you play with ff velocity. But even at pp it is still there. That's not simply an opinion.
Of course it changes, considering that it's as if you played with a lower velocity. It was not this that I was arguing. And I never said it does nothing. I said it does "almost" nothing in that circumstance (playing pp).

What I was arguing was: does the left pedal change "significantly" what you hear when you are already playing a slow passage in pp? IMHO, on an acoustic grand the answer is yes, because the timbre of 1-corda is different at whatever velocity you play, like you played on a different piano. On most DPs it doesn't. You just feel a velocity reduction (or a slightly low-pass filtered sound in other implementations), but the base sample is always the same. That's what I meant.

We have to consider that in our digital instruments we don't have so many velocity layers as in a big VST (we are talking about 4-5 layers vs dozens), so playing pp with the left pedal pressed, the change is so subtle that the listener doesn't notice it so much as he/she would notice on a real acoustic grand piano (or on a VST with separated 1-corda samples, like Ivory 2 American Concert D).

On my CN37, at default options, I don't notice timbral changes if I'm already playing pp and press the left pedal, but maybe on your instrument you can feel some more variations because your engine has more velocity layers compared to my old PHI engine. So, what is played at velocity 30 is not much different (as timbre) from the velocity 20. You feel just less volume. But in your case, having some more velocity layers, you may feel a timbral variation that I can't.
But it's strange that the user with the ES8 (HI-XL engine, so better than mine) feels only volume changes.
Hehe and nobody saw the true reason...

The CA99 introduces for the first time...half pedal on the soft pedal. That's what she is demonstrating :-).

Galuwen
I made some tests.
If I set the soft pedal parameter to 7, and if I play loud and fast, the ES8 produces a kind of string sound. But if playing this way you push the soft pedal, you can't obtain this string sound.
So it is perhaps the timbral modification ?
Originally Posted by Galuwen
Hehe and nobody saw the true reason...

The CA99 introduces for the first time...half pedal on the soft pedal. That's what she is demonstrating :-).

Galuwen

I've noticed some concert pianists do half pedaling on the una corda pedal a lot, including Astanova.
Originally Posted by BachToTheFuture
I made some tests.
If I set the soft pedal parameter to 7, and if I play loud and fast, the ES8 produces a kind of string sound. But if playing this way you push the soft pedal, you can't obtain this string sound.
So it is perhaps the timbral modification ?
Yes, that's what I think is a velocity reduction in action, when you press the left pedal.

To make it more clear, that's my hypothesis (let's suppose for simplicity we use the default linear touch curve):

[Linked Image]

So, my hypothesis is that the piano engine of my DP uses the normal touch curve (light red in the above picture) when the left pedal is up. When the left pedal is down, the DP continues to send the normal MIDI velocities of the touch curve you are using, but "internally" it generates the sound considering a touch curve re-proportioned to a maximum value that is no longer 127, but a lower value depending on the Soft-Pedal Depth value you set in the Virtual Technician options. In the above picture the dark red line represents the modified curve that the piano engine considers to generate a sound with the left pedal pressed. As you can see, the higher the velocity the more effective is the volume+timbre reduction, but being that the 2 curves start both from the same point, in the pp range they are very close. That would explain why I don't hear significative variations in volume and timbre when I play pp with left pedal down. But don't get me wrong, this is just my guess on how it works. wink
Hello folks,

To my knowledge, Kawai DPs do not feature una-corda pedal samples. Therefore, when the soft pedal is pressed, additional processing is applied (to the existing samples) in order to simulate the effect of pressing the pedal on a grand piano.

On most Kawai DPs, the extent to which the soft pedal influences the sound can be adjusted using the Virtual Technician function.

As Galuwen notes above, the latest CA99/CA79 models also feature the ability for the soft pedal to be pressed progressively (i.e. half-pedalling), providing further control over the sound.

Kind regards,
James
x
Originally Posted by Kawai James
To my knowledge, Kawai DPs do not feature una-corda pedal samples. Therefore, when the soft pedal is pressed, additional processing is applied (to the existing samples) in order to simulate the effect of pressing the pedal on a grand piano.

Thank you, James. As always, assumption is the mother of all... You just ended assumptions of I-dunno-how-many posts, by providing the facts thumb
It's hard to imagine how anyone thought there were una corda samples in any digital pianos.
The sample ROMs are already barely adequate for decent regular samples.
Imagine how bad things would be if it were necessary to steal back some of that for una corda.

Anyway ... does it really matter? Una corda is just softer volume and softer timbre.
You can get those from the regular samples easily enough. It's just software.
Originally Posted by Kawai James
[...]As Galuwen notes above, the latest CA99/CA79 models also feature the ability for the soft pedal to be pressed progressively (i.e. half-pedalling), providing further control over the sound.
That's interesting. So on the CA99/79 the "Half-Pedal Adjust" option now works for both the left and right pedals? The user manual is not very clear about this matter... It doesn't even mention that you can better control the softness of the sound by half-pedalling of the left pedal...
Originally Posted by magicpiano
So on the CA99/79 the "Half-Pedal Adjust" option now works for both the left and right pedals?


No, I don't believe so, just the damper pedal.

Originally Posted by magicpiano
The user manual is not very clear about this matter... It doesn't even mention that you can better control the softness of the sound by half-pedalling of the left pedal...


I am less involved with digital piano owner's manual creation these days, however I gather that the next version of the CA99/CA79 owner's manual will include this information:

[Linked Image]

Kind regards,
James
x
And again I am afraid we speak of different things...As all product presentation and language versions on the homepages show: CA99 supports half pedalling also on the soft pedal.

James in my opinion speaks about controlling half pedal adjust implementation in the menu.

We will see how this is done.

As the touch interface, software, update process is completely new and reworked and app support is on the way I am optimistic.

They listen to their customers after the disaster wit CA98, Novus 10 and 5 interface.

Galuwen
Hello Galuwen,

Originally Posted by Galuwen
And again I am afraid we speak of different things...


Are you referring to my reply?

Kind regards,
James
x
Originally Posted by Kawai James
[...]I am less involved with digital piano owner's manual creation these days, however I gather that the next version of the CA99/CA79 owner's manual will include this information:

[Linked Image]
Yes, that would be a little better. wink Anyway I'm surprised that the continuous left pedal has not been mentioned in the highlights section of the CA99 page in the Kawai global site. Ok, it's not such an incredible feature that all of us was waiting for, but it is still a new feature...
It never ceases to amaze me how people gush over the most trivial features while paying little heed to the most important ones.
Maybe the left half-pedal is more useful as a continuous control for e.g. rotary speaker speed, modulation for synth instruments, etc? I don’t think it’s such a big deal as an una-corda function.

P.S. I keep the triple pedal unit from my ES7 and all three pedals provide continuous output. It’s only the software that translates the left and middle pedal as switches. Because of that a continuous function would be possible even on old pianos through a firmware update IMO.
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
It never ceases to amaze me how people gush over the most trivial features while paying little heed to the most important ones.


Maybe different people consider different things important.
Using 4 pedals on 9 series would be an improvement. I already have four pedals on my ES8 :-)
Originally Posted by CyberGene
P.S. I keep the triple pedal unit from my ES7 and all three pedals provide continuous output. It’s only the software that translates the left and middle pedal as switches. Because of that a continuous function would be possible even on old pianos through a firmware update IMO.

No, I was wrong. There are optical sensors which internally give continuous voltage but there are trimpots for the left and middle pedals, so the output of the unit is not continuous for these two pedals but is a switch.
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
It never ceases to amaze me how people gush over the most trivial features while paying little heed to the most important ones.
Sometimes when there is no much more to talk about, even a trivial feature could be argument of discussion... wink
Generally the "one string" pedal moves the keyboard of a string to the right so that the hammers hit two strings. That's it?
Originally Posted by harlos
Generally the "one string" pedal moves the keyboard of a string to the right so that the hammers hit two strings. That's it?

That's it.
Originally Posted by harlos
Generally the "one string" pedal moves the keyboard of a string to the right so that the hammers hit two strings. That's it?

There's a bit more to it. On a typical acoustic grand, the tenor and treble notes have three strings, the upper bass notes have two and the lower bass notes have one.
The (slightly misnamed) una corda pedal shifts the whole action (keys, mechanics and hammers) a bit to the right, so that in the tenor and treble, the hammers now only hit two of the three strings, in the upper bass they hit one of the two strings, and in the lower bass they still hit the one single string. This alone gives a slightly more delicate tone, as less strings are hit (one string less per note from the upper bass upwards).
In addition, the hammers now hit the strings with a different bit of felt on the hammer head. Under normal playing, the felt of the hammers compacts at those places where the felt hits the string. You actually get grooves (three, two, or one, depending on the number of strings) in the felt. Over time, this makes the sound a bit "harder" compared to the sound of soft, fresh hammers. So when the pedal shifts the hammers, they now hit the strings with the felt *between* the grooves, where it is still softer. So you get a more softer, mellower sound, just like with fresh and soft hammers. Of course if you use the una corda pedal a lot, then those "in between" bits will also be compacted, so the mellow/soft effect lessens.
And that supposes a very tuned and prepared instrument with a good technician, so we can now start a discussion on how to fine tune the una corda effect on a real grand...
So the 9 series should had more Virtual Technician parameters for the una corda effect (how far go the keyboard, where the hammer hit, how many strings, how is the felt etc.
Yes and no...I speak of the reply to your comment:-).

Galuwen
Hey all, I am stil here, not scared off (even more motivated), no worries, lol. I really appriciate ALL your advices, comments, experiences etc. etc. With €3700 / 4070 USD I can buy in the Netherlands a Kawai CA 79 PE. Isnt that great? I am the kind of person that can research till he drops, just to be sure he spends his money on the right piano. After I have bought it I will not look back.The piano future lies in front of me. So keep on going discussing topics. I learn so much of it. Now my focus is on the Kawai CA79. It will be this or the Yamaha clp 685 PE (same price as the CA79 PE in the Netherlands, but I do like the upright model a bit more). I hope lots of user reviews of the Kawai CA 79 will soon be posted. I might choose the Kawai over the Yamaha than....
Best choice in my humbling opinion: if ever possible try to test play side by side.

Even if I for myself also prefer Kawai...

But as we say in Austria *voice of Christoph Waltz*...nothing comes from nothing...hehe

Galuwen
To change the subject ever so slightly, has anyone managed to play on one of these DP's yet, or are they still not available?
Expected availability in the main dealer’s showroom in London UK: end of February/beginning of March.
Originally Posted by giu
Expected availability in the main dealer’s showroom in London UK: end of February/beginning of March.


It can't come soon enough! I'm upgrading from a Yamaha P45. I hope the CA79 feels as good as they say!!
Originally Posted by Amy H
Originally Posted by giu
Expected availability in the main dealer’s showroom in London UK: end of February/beginning of March.


It can't come soon enough! I'm upgrading from a Yamaha P45. I hope the CA79 feels as good as they say!!

From a P45 to a CA79. That's a big upgrade Amy - have fun with that.
Very interesting and good explanation of the above...

And you can hear the settle difference.

https://youtu.be/WaRbhigULt0

Galuwen
Originally Posted by Galuwen
Very interesting and good explanation of the above...

And you can hear the settle difference.

https://youtu.be/WaRbhigULt0

Galuwen
As the reviewer says that's a piano not much used or brand new, so you cannot hear a big timbral change. And I think the recording equipment is very bad (maybe it's his smartphone?) so that video IMHO is not very useful to let you hear the subtle differences. At least he explains well what happens.
Maybe start a new topic for those wanting to discuss general topics such as what pedals do?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOgl3LkQ1KI

No clue what they are saying, youtube translate is struggling. :P
Thanks for posting the link.

This video is produced by Shimamura Gakki - a large musical instrument chain store in Japan.

Their video doesn't really go into a great amount of detail regarding the instruments' features.

Cheers,
James
x
Hi all! I am receiving my CA79 in two weeks!!!! 🥳 i preferred EP finish but i cant wait so i got the rosewood one!!
Originally Posted by OldDog
Hi all! I am receiving my CA79 in two weeks!!!! 🥳 i preferred EP finish but i cant wait so i got the rosewood one!!


Cool! Where did you order? Mine will supposedly arrive at the distribution center in two weeks, but then has to still go to the dealer. smirk
Originally Posted by OldDog
Hi all! I am receiving my CA79 in two weeks!!!! 🥳 i preferred EP finish but i cant wait so i got the rosewood one!!


I know your impatience and desire for instant gratification, however for something so significant I think I would have waited for it to be available.

Having said that, though I think EP looks awesome, finger marks and dust show up immediately on the EP surface. There is no hiding it. As a result I think Rosewood would be my choice.
Do we have a more accurate date for arrival in the UK yet? I have been looking online but not wanting to bother my dealer on a daily basis lol smile
Originally Posted by KevinM
Originally Posted by OldDog
Hi all! I am receiving my CA79 in two weeks!!!! 🥳 i preferred EP finish but i cant wait so i got the rosewood one!!


I know your impatience and desire for instant gratification, however for something so significant I think I would have waited for it to be available.

Having said that, though I think EP looks awesome, finger marks and dust show up immediately on the EP surface. There is no hiding it. As a result I think Rosewood would be my choice.


I paid €2800 for my 79R, the EP is €3500. Personally I consider that a very hefty difference... (just noticed the non-EP has gone up to €2999, but still).
In Italy, they are in stock since last week (Scavino). In France should be in stock early next week (my local distributor). in Belgium the week after (Maene). Thomann should also have them next week (one week lead time quoted on their site).
Originally Posted by KevinM


I know your impatience and desire for instant gratification, however for something so significant I think I would have waited for it to be available.




ok, noted with thanks 😏
So droll
Originally Posted by grd-dan
In Italy, they are in stock since last week (Scavino). In France should be in stock early next week (my local distributor). in Belgium the week after (Maene). Thomann should also have them next week (one week lead time quoted on their site).

Thanks for the info. smile
ca67 -> ca79, shipping in a week or two.

I've got 2500+ hours on the ca67, will report back impressions.

Upgraded because of the GFIII, action is my main concern (and the price, nv10 out of reach).

Pretty happy with the (headphone) sound of the ca67, only really used/liked the first piano sound. Lets see if the ca79 is an improvement.

The CA79 is way to gimmicky tbh, touch-screen wtf? But a compromise I'll have to live with. Best action I can get for the price, Kawai's stage slabs doesn't qualify.

My use-case a bit strange perhaps, the ideal DP would be
- best action possible, with very light touch curves
- one great piano sound (use all rom space for that) (no honky-tonks, EPs, strings, effects, reverb, closed-lid simulation, pedal noise (really?) etc etc needed)
- no speakers (put money into the action)
- a metronome (only need 1/1 ticks) preferably 'real metronome' increments (hate cycling 1 number at a time)
- BT Audio in (i use iRealPro alot)
- Ideal UI; no screen / display; on/off button, volume, metronome toggle/speed, BT pairing button, headphone jack
Originally Posted by aph123
ca67 -> ca79, shipping in a week or two.

I've got 2500+ hours on the ca67, will report back impressions.

Upgraded because of the GFIII, action is my main concern (and the price, nv10 out of reach).



That would be interesting, given you have so much experience with the GF-II! Out of curiosity, are you upgrading due to wear&tear on your current DP, or are there other concerns you have you expect to be 'fixed' with the GF-III?
Originally Posted by sleutelbos

That would be interesting, given you have so much experience with the GF-II! Out of curiosity, are you upgrading due to wear&tear on your current DP, or are there other concerns you have you expect to be 'fixed' with the GF-III?


a bit wear and tear tbh, those jack, slip cushions on the key sticks starting to get un-even, click etc. So that plus other action improvements.
Another short presentation video for CA79.
Somebody from Kawai Europe explains that the new GF III 'changed the weighting of the keys'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1N_me94P-9s
I just received my ca79, it really sounds good but.. The golden kawai brand stamped in front of the player is not horizontal.. I keep being disappointed every time I see it
Really terrible quality control!!
Originally Posted by Ilviolinista
I just received my ca79, it really sounds good but.. The golden kawai brand stamped in front of the player is not horizontal.. I keep being disappointed every time I see it
Really terrible quality control!!

Why don't you post a picture?
How can I do that? I tried to but it asks for a link
I have no clue. I am a new forum member as well. And still waiting to receive my CA79...

edit: it is explained here http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2248307.html.
[Linked Image]
Originally Posted by Ilviolinista
[Linked Image]


Where are you located? Call your dealer. it is easy to replace that board.
Italy, I'll send an email to the dealer tomorrow. I'll keep you updated
Hey, at least if someone steals it, it will be easy to identify! laugh
That looks bad frown Still much better than displaced keyboard problem one of the forum members had. Not to mention mine LX708 with broken bottom board under keyboard, quality control is so good everywhere wink
Originally Posted by Ilviolinista
I just received my ca79, it really sounds good but.. The golden kawai brand stamped in front of the player is not horizontal.. I keep being disappointed every time I see it
Really terrible quality control!!

How do you like the CA79 otherwise?
Hello Ilviolinista, congrats on the purchase of your CA79.

I'm sorry to see that the KAWAI logo badge is misaligned. This matter should be discussed with your dealer. However, if you would be willing to send me a private message with your CA79's serial (printed on the seal located on the underside of the keyboard) and your contact details I shall also try to follow-up on this matter.

Kind regards,
James
x
Originally Posted by Ilviolinista
I just received my ca79, it really sounds good but.. The golden kawai brand stamped in front of the player is not horizontal.. I keep being disappointed every time I see it
Really terrible quality control!!


Wow... that is too bad! I am surprised... normally companies pay much attention to quality for the first units as those are the ones analyzed and reviewed not only by professionals, but by users too. It is really dissapointing that new units are already with such a poor attention to detail.

I am awaiting for my unit, but tempted to cancel and go for a yamaha... but new models are not out 😉

Could you let us know your first impressions in terms of sound and action?
I didn't have much time to play it yesterday but I was very satisfied with the overall playability and sound quality. The keyboard felt somehow light, but that might well be just a personal feeling, given that I used to play an old clavinova (which are well known for having heavy keys).
The cabinet itself also looks very good, except of course for the issue with the logo.
I'll give some more detailed info after I play it for a while.
Kawai_James thank your help. I'll text you with the SN later today.
Couple more videos popping up. Someone from Kawai Australia provides more details about new SK-EX rendering. Not much new from what we know so far.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uf-6IULj-NE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rU5nQf612xs
Great, thanks for sharing the links!

Nice product overview from Jared there.

Cheers,
James
x
Originally Posted by OldDog
I am awaiting for my unit, but tempted to cancel and go for a yamaha... but new models are not out 😉

Wouldn't that be a bit of overreaction?
Originally Posted by Martinez
Originally Posted by OldDog
I am awaiting for my unit, but tempted to cancel and go for a yamaha... but new models are not out 😉

Wouldn't that be a bit of overreaction?


Totally! That’s why i will not do it... eager to receive it! 😉
In that first video linked by grd-dan, is there a similar but slightly less obvious problem of the `K A W A I` text being horizontal.

It might just be the camera angle, but it doesn't look quite right to me.
Originally Posted by OldDog
Originally Posted by Martinez
Originally Posted by OldDog
I am awaiting for my unit, but tempted to cancel and go for a yamaha... but new models are not out 😉

Wouldn't that be a bit of overreaction?


Totally! That’s why i will not do it... eager to receive it! 😉

Same here. Mine should arrive at the end of next week, but I might be a bit too optimistic... But I can't help it. Once I made the difficult decision which DP to buy, I want to have it immediately. Maybe I need to work on my impatience eek
Originally Posted by KevinM
In that first video linked by grd-dan, is there a similar but slightly less obvious problem of the `K A W A I` text being horizontal.

It might just be the camera angle, but it doesn't look quite right to me.

Is this the beginning of what will be known as the Kawai-Logo-Gate? Every new owner of a Kawai DP will now measure the placement of the Kawai logo up to a fraction of millimeters... shocked
Originally Posted by Martinez

Is this the beginning of what will be known as the Kawai-Logo-Gate? Every new owner of a Kawai DP will now measure the placement of the Kawai logo up to a fraction of millimeters... shocked


On my NV5 the Kawai logo is perfectly aligned.
I think the touch screen response looks slow.
Originally Posted by Tyr
Originally Posted by Martinez

Is this the beginning of what will be known as the Kawai-Logo-Gate? Every new owner of a Kawai DP will now measure the placement of the Kawai logo up to a fraction of millimeters... shocked


On my NV5 the Kawai logo is perfectly aligned.

That's promising. So, based on the current statistics, 50% of the Kawai digital piano owners have well aligned logos. We'll be updating the ratio when we have more poll results.
Originally Posted by AYS
I think the touch screen response looks slow.

Yeah it is slow, similar to previous models. They cut costs here, still it's not a big deal unless you meddle with settings A LOT.

Originally Posted by grd-dan
Couple more videos popping up. Someone from Kawai Australia provides more details about new SK-EX rendering. Not much new from what we know so far.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rU5nQf612xs


Again no classical demos frown I'd also love to hear some slow pieces when you can hear resonances better.
Think we should wait for the Piano Remote app (in April?). That one should 'replicate' the piano touch screen functions on it's own phone/tablet. The response on these would depend on everyone's (phone/tablet) budget
Decal or logo?
Originally Posted by Nordomus
Originally Posted by AYS
I think the touch screen response looks slow.

Yeah it is slow, similar to previous models. They cut costs here, still it's not a big deal unless you meddle with settings A LOT.

I do not know where you are located, but were you able to play the CA79 / CA99 or did you already get one?
Originally Posted by Martinez
Originally Posted by Nordomus
Originally Posted by AYS
I think the touch screen response looks slow.

Yeah it is slow, similar to previous models. They cut costs here, still it's not a big deal unless you meddle with settings A LOT.

I do not know where you are located, but were you able to play the CA79 / CA99 or did you already get one?

No, not yet. I'm speaking from experience from using CA98, it seems like new GUI works at the similar speed, even if it's reworked, it's mostly visual change, not performance.
Originally Posted by Pete14
Decal or logo?

Decal, but I don't think removing it is an option
Originally Posted by Nordomus
Originally Posted by Martinez
Originally Posted by Nordomus
Originally Posted by AYS
I think the touch screen response looks slow.

Yeah it is slow, similar to previous models. They cut costs here, still it's not a big deal unless you meddle with settings A LOT.

I do not know where you are located, but were you able to play the CA79 / CA99 or did you already get one?

No, not yet. I'm speaking from experience from using CA98, it seems like new GUI works at the similar speed, even if it's reworked, it's mostly visual change, not performance.

I am not sure it is a valid approach to assume from an older model...
Originally Posted by Ilviolinista
Originally Posted by Pete14
Decal or logo?

Decal, but I don't think removing it is an option


Have you considered that this ‘crooked’ Kawai could potentially fetch you a fortune from collectors one hundred years from now?
It is, after all, one of a kind; and that’s the first thing in collectors’ minds.

“The only crooked decal on a Kawai, ever!” “Make your offers!”
Originally Posted by Nordomus
Originally Posted by AYS
I think the touch screen response looks slow.

Yeah it is slow, similar to previous models. They cut costs here, still it's not a big deal unless you meddle with settings A LOT.

Originally Posted by grd-dan
Couple more videos popping up. Someone from Kawai Australia provides more details about new SK-EX rendering. Not much new from what we know so far.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rU5nQf612xs


Again no classical demos frown I'd also love to hear some slow pieces when you can hear resonances better.


Of course , this is not a synthesizer and you won't use all of the menus A LOT, but I hope you will agree its not nice to press an icon twice to select an instrument at this price point.

As an ex CA78 owner I loved the sound but I also believe CA line deserves a better OS running on a faster hardware with a better QC.
Originally Posted by Pete14
Originally Posted by Ilviolinista
Originally Posted by Pete14
Decal or logo?

Decal, but I don't think removing it is an option

Have you considered that this ‘crooked’ Kawai could potentially fetch you a fortune from collectors one hundred years from now?
It is, after all, one of a kind; and that’s the first thing in collectors’ minds.
“The only crooked decal on a Kawai, ever!” “Make your offers!”


Isn't that a common marketing approach. Take your weakest point and turn it into a feature.
I'm torn between nord grand and the 2 new kawais for a home piano, and to make recordings with garritan cfx, this is my only set up I want in the world (apart from a real grand or novus nv10).

I maybe don't need the soundboard extra on the ca99 (does it make much difference? And will it effect vsts or just the onboard sounds only?)

I am mainly after best touch, but I know the nord records really well, tried it in shop, not impressed with nord monitors though.

Does the ca79 come apart into 2 main pieces? I know the ca99 is one piece assembled in factory.

Do vsts sound good through the speaker systems on cabinet pianos, for example the previous model ca 78?

I still want to use the onboard sounds on a dp as they connect really well as opposed to vsts which I only mainly use to record due to far more realistic audio results. The nord grand did connect surprisingly well, I noticed how expressive you can be and it plays so well and how you meant it to sound from your fingers to resulting sound. Not tried the ca79/99 but did try the ca98 (loved the touch a lot) but was not liking the sound/tone so much, but I've heard the new models have improved on this... Does the ca 78 have speaker diffusers like the ca99? Maybe kawai James can help, also what's the weight of both models I see conflicting weights online, 76 or 79kg for ca79?

Which piano would you buy if you were me and the budget can stretch to ca99 but no higher...?

Cheers

Mark
Go with the new CA lineup all the way. And yes, the soundboard makes a difference for the on-board sound as well as any VST.

The Nord Grand is an overpriced slab in a nice dress. On the whole, it does not come close to the Kawai CA lineup.
Originally Posted by mwf
I'm torn between nord grand and the 2 new kawais for a home piano, and to make recordings with garritan cfx, this is my only set up I want in the world (apart from a real grand or novus nv10).

I maybe don't need the soundboard extra on the ca99 (does it make much difference? And will it effect vsts or just the onboard sounds only?)

I am mainly after best touch, but I know the nord records really well, tried it in shop, not impressed with nord monitors though.

Does the ca79 come apart into 2 main pieces? I know the ca99 is one piece assembled in factory.

Do vsts sound good through the speaker systems on cabinet pianos, for example the previous model ca 78?

I still want to use the onboard sounds on a dp as they connect really well as opposed to vsts which I only mainly use to record due to far more realistic audio results. The nord grand did connect surprisingly well, I noticed how expressive you can be and it plays so well and how you meant it to sound from your fingers to resulting sound. Not tried the ca79/99 but did try the ca98 (loved the touch a lot) but was not liking the sound/tone so much, but I've heard the new models have improved on this... Does the ca 78 have speaker diffusers like the ca99? Maybe kawai James can help, also what's the weight of both models I see conflicting weights online, 76 or 79kg for ca79?

Which piano would you buy if you were me and the budget can stretch to ca99 but no higher...?

Cheers

Mark


The PE finish adds 3KG to the weight. AFAIK the CA79 is to be assembled at home, and both have the diffuser panels.
Yes, they pile on quite a lot of paint / laquer / whatever it is ... don't they?
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
The PE finish adds 3KG to the weight.

Does the CA 79 also have the actual speakers made by Onkyo?

I remember the CA 78 had Onkyo audio processing parts but only the CA 98 had speakers by Onkyo.
Originally Posted by Pete14
Go with the new CA lineup all the way. And yes, the soundboard makes a difference for the on-board sound as well as any VST.

The Nord Grand is an overpriced slab in a nice dress. On the whole, it does not come close to the Kawai CA lineup.


I’m sure I read something a while ago saying that Nord use Kawai actions in their “Piano” range. If this is the case, would the Nord Grand have the same action as in the new CA series? I had a brief play on the Nord Grand, and I didn’t like a the feel. It does look the part though!
Originally Posted by Amy H
Originally Posted by Pete14
Go with the new CA lineup all the way. And yes, the soundboard makes a difference for the on-board sound as well as any VST.

The Nord Grand is an overpriced slab in a nice dress. On the whole, it does not come close to the Kawai CA lineup.


I’m sure I read something a while ago saying that Nord use Kawai actions in their “Piano” range. If this is the case, would the Nord Grand have the same action as in the new CA series? I had a brief play on the Nord Grand, and I didn’t like a the feel. It does look the part though!


No, it uses a much older Kawai action (same one as in the VPC1, RM-III, IIRC?).
Nord Grand uses a plastic RH-action. They haven’t stated an exact model, such as RH3 (as in ES8) and I think James have said it’s a variant of RH specifically for Nord. Other Nord Piano models use Fatar actions.
Originally Posted by Amy H
Originally Posted by Pete14


I had a brief play on the Nord Grand, and I didn’t like a the feel


Why didn’t you like a’ the feel........a’? crazy
Another recording from the CA99

https://youtu.be/r0C30d7XsH4
Originally Posted by Pete14
Originally Posted by Amy H
Originally Posted by Pete14


I had a brief play on the Nord Grand, and I didn’t like a the feel


Why didn’t you like a’ the feel........a’? crazy


Ha! Thanks for picking up on that typo!!
As soon as you start playing any type of piano or digital piano, you just know pretty quick if you like it or not. I didn't like the texture on the keys, or the feel of the action. I tried a Kawai CN29 (I think), and i wanted to keep playing it! Sadly, they had taken their CA78 off of display in preparation for the CA79!
Originally Posted by Martinez

I am not sure it is a valid approach to assume from an older model...

You can see GUI on one of the videos posted earlier. Interface is not very responsive(understatement) and it behaves in similar speed to CA98, that's why I compare them both.
And another demo if the CA79 and CA99 with some more classical pieces...

https://youtu.be/qOgl3LkQ1KI

Galuwen
Amy no like a the feel because she Italian. Is ok, yes? smile
Originally Posted by Amy H
Originally Posted by Pete14
Originally Posted by Amy H
I had a brief play on the Nord Grand, and I didn’t like a the feel
Why didn’t you like a’ the feel........a’? crazy
Ha! Thanks for picking up on that typo!!
As soon as you start playing any type of piano or digital piano, you just know pretty quick if you like it or not. I didn't like the texture on the keys, or the feel of the action. I tried a Kawai CN29 (I think), and i wanted to keep playing it! Sadly, they had taken their CA78 off of display in preparation for the CA79!
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Amy no like a the feel because she Italian. Is ok, yes? smile



You like a’ the pepper? grin


https://youtu.be/wAFGEBdeDNk
Does the ca79 have the exact same samples as ca99? So I f you recorded both line out they would be no difference in quality right?
Originally Posted by mwf
Does the ca79 have the exact same samples as ca99? So I f you recorded both line out they would be no difference in quality right?



Correct.
Correcto!
Tak!
You like a’ the juice? The juice is good, si?
Hello mwf,

There are quite a few questions in your post, however I'll try to answer as many as I can.

Originally Posted by mwf
I maybe don't need the soundboard extra on the ca99 (does it make much difference? And will it effect vsts or just the onboard sounds only?)


The soundboard definitely makes a difference, however if the majority of playing will be with headphones it's perhaps less of an important feature. The soundboard is used regardless of whether the audio is generated by the onboard sound engine, or from an an external source such as a VST connected to the Line In connectors.

Originally Posted by mwf
Does the ca79 come apart into 2 main pieces? I know the ca99 is one piece assembled in factory.


Yes, the CA79 consists of the main piano part and the stand, and must be assembled. The CA99, due the soundboard, ships as a single piece from the factory.

Originally Posted by mwf
Do vsts sound good through the speaker systems on cabinet pianos, for example the previous model ca 78?


As with other digital pianos, the speaker system is tuned/EQ'd for the built-in sounds. However, it's definitely possible to connect external sources such as a computer running a VST.

Originally Posted by mwf
Does the ca 78 have speaker diffusers like the ca99?


The previous generation CA78 and CA98 did not use speaker diffusers. However, both the CA79 and CA99 do use speaker diffusers.

Originally Posted by mwf
Also what's the weight of both models I see conflicting weights online, 76 or 79kg for ca79?

CA99: 83.0 kg / 183 lbs. (Standard finishes) 89.0 kg / 196 lbs. (Ebony Polish finish)
CA79: 76.0 kg / 167 1/2 lbs. (Standard finishes) 79.0 kg / 174 lbs. (Ebony Polish finish)

[quote=mwf]Which piano would you buy if you were me and the budget can stretch to ca99 but no higher...?


I would buy the piano that I enjoy playing the most, and is within my budget.
I wouldn't buy a piano that I cannot play, do not enjoy playing, or cannot afford.

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,
James
x
Originally Posted by lovelovemale
Does the CA 79 also have the actual speakers made by Onkyo?

I remember the CA 78 had Onkyo audio processing parts but only the CA 98 had speakers by Onkyo.


Yes, you are correct.
The CA99 and now the CA79 feature Onkyo speakers.

Kind regards,
James
x
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Nord Grand uses a plastic RH-action. They haven’t stated an exact model, such as RH3 (as in ES8) and I think James have said it’s a variant of RH specifically for Nord. Other Nord Piano models use Fatar actions.


Correct!

The weight of the Nord Grand should indicate that it does not use wooden keys.

Kind regards,
James
x
Hello everyone , i’m decided to get the kawai ca79 but I cannot see it in person. I can’t decide between rosewood or black mate version because of the brown cloth That the rosewood seems to have at the upper part, I’m afraid it will be so “brown” compared to the rest of the piano. I love rosewood version, I had a cn23r and loved it, but I’m afraid of this brown cloth on ca79r, so please can someone post some pics of the upper part of the piano where is this cloth that covers the sound difusors, in the rosewood version ? I can’t find any video or picture on internet where I can see it clearly in the rosewood version .
Thank you.

(Excuse me for my English, I’m from Spain)
Dieci - I am just the same my friend. I looked at a CA58 in rose and black and though exectly the same as you.

I decided to wait until I saw the two new models directly to see and if they are the same as the older models. Which makes me think that I may go for the Ebony version. Well that is if they play as good as they say. If they do not come up to expectation then I am back to square one and start looking at the Yamaha update to what I currently use. Best of luck with your final choice.

Andy smile
Originally Posted by Ilviolinista
[Linked Image]

Maybe you could post more pictures, please!
I order mine in rosewood too!
Just tried the CA79 and 99 at Pierre's Fine Pianos, they just came in.
I like the new cabinet styles, nice GF III action and touchscreen interface.
I think he got them first because Kawai USA headquarters are located in LA.
I found these two pics in rosewood:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcSo4Na4SkHCtIdGBhv1yun_jnwnEbrGHDdutWHteSeaNeOACTxI

https://scontent-lga3-1.cdninstagra...92df2f7aac5a59c8bc4c8540&oe=5EDACE14
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
I am not 100% convinced by the colour of the material covering the speakers, but I think the rosewood colour works very nicely and the overall look of the CA79 is great.
I think the red color you see in those pictures (especially the second one) is a little brighter than it actually is. On my CN37 (rosewood version) the covering on the speakers looks more brown and dark. Consider that pictures could alter very much the colors and brightness you see.
For example, with my smartphone camera I'm not able to get a good picture of a lit fireplace with the same vibrant red and yellow colors I actually see. The colors in the picture I get are always more opaque and cold. I had an old Canon digital camera (unfortunately now it's broken) that altered the colors in the opposite way: it made the colors more vibrant and saturated than the reality. It was very very good to take beautiful pictures of flowers.
Originally Posted by KevinM
I am not 100% convinced by the colour of the material covering the speakers, but I think the rosewood colour works very nicely and the overall look of the CA79 is great.


I also hate the ‘colour’ covering the speakers. It’s almost red, for God’s sake!
Originally Posted by Pete14
I also hate the ‘colour’ covering the speakers. It’s almost red, for God’s sake!


As magicpiano notes above, the speaker cover material colour appear brighter in pictures than in real life, and is influenced by the lighting in the room and type of camera used.

Kind regards,
James
x
Wasn't rosewood banned decades ago? Endangered species, or some such?

So I suspect there's not a speck of rosewood in a rosewood-finished piano. frown
Are we sticking with ‘colour’? wink
I assume the Satin Black isn't made of actual satin either. wink
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Wasn't rosewood banned decades ago? Endangered species, or some such?

So I suspect there's not a speck of rosewood in a rosewood-finished piano. frown

Don't worry. In this price range these DP cabinets are made of chipboard material covered with panels that looks a little like rosewood. A cabinet style DP would cost 2x or 3x if it was made of real solid wood. Consider that maple wood costs about $1000 per m^3 and rosewood much more.
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Wasn't rosewood banned decades ago? Endangered species, or some such?

So I suspect there's not a speck of rosewood in a rosewood-finished piano. frown

Don't worry. In this price range these DP cabinets are made of chipboard material covered with panels that looks a little like rosewood. A cabinet style DP would cost 2x or 3x if it was made of real solid wood. Consider that maple wood costs about $1000 per m^3 and rosewood much more.

Nonsense! Next you'll tell me that polished Ebony isn't actually made of real ebony... but instead just plastic veneer, and they charge hundreds of dollars extra for the priveledge of deceived?!
Originally Posted by Burkie
priveledge of deceived

Privilege of being deceived!
I'm sorry I brought you the harsh reality. Ebony wood is one of the most expensive in the world. We are talking about $10,000 per kg.
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Wasn't rosewood banned decades ago? Endangered species, or some such?

So I suspect there's not a speck of rosewood in a rosewood-finished piano. frown

Don't worry. In this price range these DP cabinets are made of chipboard material covered with panels that looks a little like rosewood. A cabinet style DP would cost 2x or 3x if it was made of real solid wood. Consider that maple wood costs about $1000 per m^3 and rosewood much more.


I remember when i bought my second handed CN24, and the owner tried to convince me that it was real wood, maybe i couldnt tell the difference, but i went with my brother wich is kind of an expert on wood (self taught guitar luthier), and he tried to kindly tell him that it wasnt rosewood. But i shut him up since the guy was so enthusiastic about thinking his DP was made from real wood that i felt i little sad to ruin it for him
Has anyone got reports of the little issue on the previous models that made some specific keys sound louder? does it still happen with some models or has it been fixed with GF3?

BTW could anyone remind me what software could be used to see midi velocities? i never checked on my CA78, but i had to lower some volumes on the virtual technician to fix that.
Speaking of Ebony Polish, I've just uploaded these images of the CA79EP and CA99 to the Kawai Global website.

CA79 Ebony Polish
[Linked Image]

CA99 Ebony Polish
[Linked Image]

More EP images will be uploaded once the full product descriptions are added.

Kind regards,
James
x
Originally Posted by Kawai James

More EP images will be uploaded once the full product descriptions are added.

Kind regards,
James
x

Thanks James!

Every time I look at a CA78/CA98 I fall in love with the ebony keys. Of all pianos, those Kawai keys look and feel the most like real ebony.
Regarding those pictures of the CA79 and CA99 ...

The CA79 looks SO MUCH better! If I didn't know which was which I'd guess that the former was the high-end model and the latter its low-end wannabe.
I'm dying to try the new action, although I can't fit anything but a stage piano into the room.
Thank you Kawai James for your very helpful responses, much appreciated. I'm pretty much set on buying a new kawai ca model this year in a few months time, definitely a polished ebony cabinet, most likely ca79 due to cost.

I've bought and owned about 7 or 8 different digital pianos in the last 20 years, Roland and yamaha models, never have I owned a kawai in my life and I'm an experienced pianist now at 40 years of age. I'm hesitant to buy a kawai because of this and how reliable they are, I'm. Hoping they are reliable and last without any issues such as clicking keys and wear and tear on action, worn rubber parts etc.. I've heard this online. Are Kawai actions generally as reliable as other manufacturers?
Originally Posted by johnstaf
I'm dying to try the new action, although I can't fit anything but a stage piano into the room.


I know exactly what you mean, and I really don't need a new DP and the action in my MP11SE is such a step up from what I had I don't need a replacement. But I've drunk the Kawai cool aid marketing for these models. Please save me from a foolish and unnecessary purchase when a MP12 eventually is released if the marketing is half as good as this.

Like you the CA models are too big for my space. So that at least saves me from GAS.
The next generation will cost more.

Kawai will need one more character for ES10, CA100. I suggest hexadecimal : ESA, CA64

Originally Posted by BachToTheFuture
The next generation will cost more.

Kawai will need one more character for ES10, CA100. I suggest hexadecimal : ESA, CA64

Why skip the ES9?
The PE models look very good!

I was wondering, what is the difference in cabinet between the CA 78 and CA 79?
I cannot really see much difference in the updated cabinet. Can anybody point out the major differences ?

Thanks!
Just received a KAWAI CA 79. Wonderful. Very nice cabinet and my first impression of the GFIII couldn't be better. I also have found the touchscreen very responsive.
The speaker cover (rosewood version) has nothing to do with previous pictures and the colour matches perfectly with the rest of the cabinet. I am posting some pictures:

http://forum.pianoworld.com//tmp/12527.jpg.thumb
http://forum.pianoworld.com//tmp/12528.jpg.thumb

Sorry for the pictures but is my first time in the forum. I will have to go deeper in the posting pictures thread.

Regards.
congrats!!
Europe is always so fast with receiving the newest pianos :P
Originally Posted by aradinja
Just received a KAWAI CA 79. Wonderful. Very nice cabinet and my first impression of the GFIII couldn't be better. I also have found the touchscreen very responsive.
The speaker cover (rosewood version) has nothing to do with previous pictures and the colour matches perfectly with the rest of the cabinet. I am posting some pictures:

http://forum.pianoworld.com//tmp/12527.jpg.thumb
http://forum.pianoworld.com//tmp/12528.jpg.thumb

Sorry for the pictures but is my first time in the forum. I will have to go deeper in the posting pictures thread.

Regards.
I had no doubts the speakers cover was not so red as in some pictures. Congratulations for your new DP! wink
Yes, but why are we sticking with colour?
I see colors ‘round me all day long, but somehow I don’t see any colours! cry
Originally Posted by Pete14
Yes, but why are we sticking with colour?
I see colors ‘round me all day long, but somehow I don’t see any colours! cry

What do you mean? Is there a difference between the words 'color' and 'colour'? Sorry, I'm not an english native speaker...
.....neither am I.

Perhaps CG should chime in on this color vs. colour issue and set things straight once and for all!
Pete14 is just being Pete14 his usual sarcastic self. Sometimes he adds humor to a thread and other times he misses the mark. So best to take his posts as lightly baked humor. I usually click on his comments to get a chuckle smile
But really, why colour?
Originally Posted by Pete14
.....neither am I.

Perhaps CG should chime in on this color vs. colour issue and set things straight once and for all!

The Google Translator thinks "color" is better.
The word "color" gives 9.520.000.000 results in google search.
The word "colour" gives 1.640.000.000 results.

Personally, I don't give a... laugh
I don't see the point of pete's teasing. I am not a native english speaker but it seems a poor attempt to be funny, especially considering this forum is attended by people from all around the globe.

Per meriam-webster dictionary (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/colour):
Definition of colour
chiefly British spelling of COLOR

Tomato-tomato (tomayto-tomahto).
Hello, as this is my 4th Kawai in order CA93, CA95,CA97, CA98 and now CA99 PE on order (hehe I paid some guys salary @Kawai and I am really proud to be Kawai customer....no I am honoured) I can confirm, that aside of a few little things on the older Key version (they all got fixed free of charge) and had until today not the slightest issue with the keys of my CA97 and CA98.

Galuwen
Colour is just wrong! You see, the French invaded England in 1066 and French became the official language at Court.

French words invaded the English vocabulary, too, including the French word couleur. Those darned invaders could not spell!

The Brits then misspelled couleur as colour. That makes two mistakes.

It wasn't until the mid-19th century in America that these errors were corrected, and we have color.
And now all is well! smile
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Originally Posted by Pete14
.....neither am I.

Perhaps CG should chime in on this color vs. colour issue and set things straight once and for all!

The Google Translator thinks "color" is better.
The word "color" gives 9.520.000.000 results in google search.
The word "colour" gives 1.640.000.000 results.

Personally, I don't give a... laugh
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Colour is just wrong!


Unless, of course, it is The Colour Out of Space ...
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
It wasn't until the mid-19th century in America that these errors were corrected, and we have color.
And now all is well! smile


You know what they say: English is not spoken in USA for some centuries now. smile
It's a Canadian thing it is spelled colour in Canada and color in the states. Probably blame the french in Quebec for that. There are actually quite a few words like that.
It doesn't matter much to this Canuck though, I can't spell very well in either country.

Holy crap, I just googled it and a list of 96 words spelled differently in Canada and USA came up. I didn't know you guys spelt so houribly.
colour = British English; color = American English
Originally Posted by mwf
Thank you Kawai James for your very helpful responses, much appreciated. I'm pretty much set on buying a new kawai ca model this year in a few months time, definitely a polished ebony cabinet, most likely ca79 due to cost.

I've bought and owned about 7 or 8 different digital pianos in the last 20 years, Roland and yamaha models, never have I owned a kawai in my life and I'm an experienced pianist now at 40 years of age. I'm hesitant to buy a kawai because of this and how reliable they are, I'm. Hoping they are reliable and last without any issues such as clicking keys and wear and tear on action, worn rubber parts etc.. I've heard this online. Are Kawai actions generally as reliable as other manufacturers?




Hello, as this is my 4th Kawai in order CA93, CA95,CA97, CA98 and now CA99 PE on order (hehe I paid some guys salary @Kawai and I am really proud to be Kawai customer....no I am honoured) I can confirm, that aside of a few little things on the older Key version (they all got fixed free of charge) and had until today not the slightest issue with the keys of my CA97 and CA98.

Galuwen
(Sorry couldn't delete my first reply due to forum regulations *face turns red*)

Colour is the original and correct way not just to spell in English but also to say as in proper pronunciation - The American version Color is the result of a thing called 'Chinese whispers' where the blind lead the blind and before you know it, it has dumbed down. Not just the spelling but also the phonetics. lol

Also to consider in a similar but not exactly the same way is the reduction for clarity where the English say pavement and in the USA say ..... side .... walk just - to make sure they do not walk in the middle of the road.

Of course the post is a good example of English humour (as all this is) and must say that over many other forums where I and my friends from the USA are prevalent, we have so much fun and banter over the differences that have developed in so many ways over the centuries.

In answer to the issue over French - yes indeed we stole some of their vocabulary in the past in fact over 600 key words from Latin speakers infiltrated and simply added to the wonderful colour of English today. We also added our own to as in English we can say ... what are to doing. or going - in Latin these do not exist as they speak diffidently in sentence.
English has on average five distinctly different words for each description over one in french - but they use expression to convey verbally.

The Lords Prayer is a good example of older English in a version where just as in the French way .... Father forgive them for they know not what they do .... and in English modern we would most likely say .... Father forgive them as they do not know what they are doing ... - Doing and going does not exist in Latin language

Have a nice weekend - AND WHERE IS MY EBONY CA79! he he
AFAIK the original Latin word is 'colorem'. From that derived the Italian, French, Spanish and English versions:

Italian: colore
Spanish: color
French: coleur
English UK: colour
English USA: color

I don't think there is the "best" version. Each language developed in its ways for different reasons. I found an article on the differences between English UK and US: LINK.

To each his own, but the important thing is to understand each other! smile
The imagination behind the spelling of words prior to the printing press is quite something, spelling gradually became standardised after that and gradually we got dictionaries which furthered the process of conformity.

The same word could be spelt multiple ways in the same sentence. The idea that the American spelling is "dumbed down" is just odd I think.

I think it was me who started the whole colour thing in this thread for which I apologize for the then off topic direction this thread has gone.

Start of the use of the word colour
Why not just spell it kuller? grin
"It was me" or "It was I" ? smile
Originally Posted by KevinM
I think it was me who started the whole colour thing in this thread for which I apologize for the then off topic direction this thread has gone.
Originally Posted by magicpiano
AFAIK the original Latin word is 'colorem'. From that derived the Italian, French, Spanish and English versions:

Italian: colore
Spanish: color
French: coleur
English UK: colour
English USA: color

I don't think there is the "best" version. Each language developed in its ways for different reasons. I found an article on the differences between English UK and US: LINK.

To each his own, but the important thing is to understand each other! smile


French word is "couleur", but you also could use "teinte" that's not very different from "tint"
Originally Posted by BachToTheFuture

French word is "couleur"
Yes, sorry, accidentally I missed the the 'u' but now I cannot correct anymore my post... frown
Initial impressions after 2 full practise sessions on the CA79. I'm coming from a CA67 on which I clocked north of 2000 hours.

I've upgraded for the action mainly, and initially I agree with the "less spongy" / "faster repetitions" sentiment. Its an incremental change for sure, but after more hours playing the subtle changes add up, giving a more enjoyable playing experience. It's another step closer to the 'real thing', I'd be hard pressed to tell the GFIII apart from a well-regulated grand action in a blind test (on feel alone).

I hadn't tested the 'SK-EX Rendering' sound engine outside a demo room before. I have to say now that it's an clear improvement, sounding better than I remember it. On my headphones the sound is more detailed, less muddy and harsh. I'm assuming a combination of better samples, modelling and better electronics. The sound engine also responds very well to to the action, giving the player a great connection with the instrument.

With some VT tweaks (lighter touch curves, tad less resonance) I've started to notice subtle issues in my playing I've only noticed on my teachers grand before; hand balance, phrasing, articulations. This piano makes my playing sound WORSE than on the CA67, and that's about the highest praise I can give the CA79.

Feature wise, BT audio is big for me (no more noisy BT dongles in the line-input). Not ecstatic about the touch interface, but I can live with it. After boot all I need to do is select my saved sound, and after that I just interact with the metronome (with is pretty good).

So, less spongy, less forgiving, more pleasant sounding; an upgrade that's worth it.
Aph123
Thanks for the appraisal - it does help with my own decision making - keep them coming if you can smile

Andy
Aph123,

Would you mind If asked you to measure two things in your CA 79 with a tape measure?

What is the height of the bottom part of the keyboard in CA 79 (I mean height of the space where knee is suppose to go, from the floor to the bottom of the keyboard holding part of the piano cabinet)?

Please see the pic, for reference (black arrow on the pic) - picture.

Additionally could you please check the height of the keys (top surface) from the floor?

Thank you in advance. I am to upgrade my old ES 100 to the new piano and CA 79 look perfect on paper, but I unfortunately I have quite long legs. I have no way to check it in Poland for the moment in physical store, so maybe I could compare dimensions with my current setup.

Best regards,
Marcin
Originally Posted by aph123
This piano makes my playing sound WORSE than on the CA67, and that's about the highest praise I can give the CA79.


Well said!

Osho
Originally Posted by Kensei
Aph123,
Would you mind If asked you to measure two things in your CA 79 with a tape measure?

What is the height of the bottom part of the keyboard in CA 79 (I mean height of the space where knee is suppose to go, from the floor to the bottom of the keyboard holding part of the piano cabinet)?


Hi, I would like to ask the same thing for the CA-99 (long legs too here wink
Hello chaps, I will try to find out for you.

Kind regards,
James
x
PM sent.
Here's an unboxing of the CA99 with a little test. You can find an unboxing+assembly video of the CA79 in the same channel, both in satin black. I'm eager to watch the CA99 in polished ebony in a video!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWuGTLsu_ig
Originally Posted by cebeema
Here's an unboxing of the CA99 with a little test. You can find an unboxing+assembly video of the CA79 in the same channel, both in satin black. I'm eager to watch the CA99 in polished ebony in a video!

That's nice... You open the box and the piano is already assembled, plug in the power cable, switch on and you are ready to play! In my case (CN37) it took me about 3 hours to assemble it (without help) before I could play on it... crazy But it was fun! laugh
Hi, Does anyone know the width of the box where the CA79 comes in? I need to anticipate if it will make it through my house’s door or i will need to unbox on the street!

I am really worried about the delivery on street... it is going to be huge and heavy, and i do not think we can be two people on delivery moment... but i cannot leave it on the street (besides it will be probably raining...) 😫

Thanks!!!
Originally Posted by OldDog
Hi, Does anyone know the width of the box where the CA79 comes in? I need to anticipate if it will make it through my house’s door or i will need to unbox on the street!

I can't imagine it's more than 1,50 .. 1.60 m. Mine should arrive next week, I'll be able to tell you for sure then.

EDIT: should have read more carefully... You asked for width, not length. No idea...

Originally Posted by OldDog
I am really worried about the delivery on street... it is going to be huge and heavy, and i do not think we can be two people on delivery moment... but i cannot leave it on the street (besides it will be probably raining...) 😫

If you ask nicely (and give a tip), I am sure they will help you get it inside.
Originally Posted by OldDog
Hi, Does anyone know the width of the box where the CA79 comes in? I need to anticipate if it will make it through my house’s door or i will need to unbox on the street!


I've emailed one of my colleagues in the Distribution department, so should be able to confirm the dimensions for you tomorrow.

Kind regards,
James
x
Thank you! I know box for CA78 was 650mm (i read it in the forum 😊)

I cant wait to have it!

Everyday looking for videos on youtube hahaha
How the heck those 2 men lift that 80kg piano like that, 40kg each side? Like It was nothing, gives me some hope I could get a ca99 in my house, thought I would need 2 men each side!
Originally Posted by mwf
How the heck those 2 men lift that 80kg piano like that, 40kg each side?


Superpowers. 🦸‍♂️

It's extraordinary what skilled movers can do, whether they're moving furniture or pianos. The same goes for carpet layers.
Originally Posted by mwf
How the heck those 2 men lift that 80kg piano like that, 40kg each side? Like It was nothing, gives me some hope I could get a ca99 in my house, thought I would need 2 men each side!

Tell me about it, the Ca78 i got i think it was between 89-95kg since it included the bench. I could barely get it out of the car with my brother, i had to open it up and move just the upper part through a tight U shapped ladder to my room on the second floor, it was a pain.
Long ago my Kawai was lifted by two young guys. The piano weighed 560 pounds.
I would never dare try. But some do and can.
Originally Posted by mwf
How the heck those 2 men lift that 80kg piano like that, 40kg each side? Like It was nothing, gives me some hope I could get a ca99 in my house, thought I would need 2 men each side!
Just received the confirmation that my CA79 was shipped. Plus bench. 117 kg total, one packet; that's 18,5 stones for the British, 260 pounds for our friends in the US crazy
Well like I said in one of my other posts.... I actually carried down my CA 98 with just one other person down 2 floors....
IT WAS DAMN heavy and really hard to grab. The stairs were going down in a circle as well... this Kawais are heavy indeed :P
Can anyone share their experience with playing the CA79? I'm in the US and none of the dealers near me have it yet.
U.S. gets new digital pianos last :S :|
OldDog,

Here are the dimensions of the CA79 and CA99 carton boxes:

CA79
1582 (L) x 692 (W) x 654 (H) mm

CA99
1565 (L) x 590 (W) x 1135 (H) mm

I hope this helps.

Cheers,
James
x
Originally Posted by Kawai James
OldDog,

Here are the dimensions of the CA79 and CA99 carton boxes:

CA79
1582 (L) x 692 (W) x 654 (H) mm

CA99
1565 (L) x 590 (W) x 1135 (H) mm

I hope this helps.

Cheers,
James
x


Thank You James!!! Mine is coming too!!! 118kg... 🥳🥳🥳
I want to confirm this- can you tune piano in pianist mode on ca79 and ca99?
Originally Posted by Kawai James
OldDog,

Here are the dimensions of the CA79 and CA99 carton boxes:

CA79
1582 (L) x 692 (W) x 654 (H) mm

CA99
1565 (L) x 590 (W) x 1135 (H) mm

I hope this helps.

Cheers,
James
x



Hey James I think you forgot to post that the piano comes with two piano movers with delivery smile
Just noted that the Kawai US site has replaced "Coming Soon" with a description for both CA99 and CA79. The MSRP have also been posted.
Originally Posted by LazyLizard
Just noted that the Kawai US site has replaced "Coming Soon" with a description for both CA99 and CA79. The MSRP have also been posted.


Thanks for the heads up. I was hoping the MSRP would be closer to $4k ...
I expect CA79 to be a few hundred above 4k when it actually becomes available to order online.
Originally Posted by LazyLizard
I expect CA79 to be a few hundred above 4k when it actually becomes available to order online.


Here's to hoping. smile My 50th birthday is still several months away, so I'll be patient ... laugh
Lucky the ones who live in Europe with their prices :P
Originally Posted by lovelovemale
Lucky the ones who live in Europe with their prices :P

Yeah, on my country its usually way more expensive, the retail price for a CA78 was $4160, i got it with an "offer" for $3330. With the price the dolar is going now they are selling the CN37 for that pricce ($3330), wich is wow. Plus they have only so much stock, they got the CN29/39 but i dont see them around anymore, they are still selling the left overs of the last gen. They have no idea when the CA79 is releasing, plus they dont bring the CA58 nor the CA98.

Originally Posted by GNkyrios
Originally Posted by lovelovemale
Lucky the ones who live in Europe with their prices :P

Yeah, on my country its usually way more expensive, the retail price for a CA78 was $4160, i got it with an "offer" for $3330. With the price the dolar is going now they are selling the CN37 for that pricce ($3330), wich is wow. Plus they have only so much stock, they got the CN29/39 but i dont see them around anymore, they are still selling the left overs of the last gen. They have no idea when the CA79 is releasing, plus they dont bring the CA58 nor the CA98.



Where to you live?
I wish Kawai would be more aggressive in its distribution in other first world countries like the U.S. :>
3100€, here in Italy... I'll wait for the price to drop wink

from some videos I watched on the tube, it seems to have a great sound, though.

what about this "SK-EX Rendering"?

it would seem that only the CA79-99 use this sound generation system
Originally Posted by Ragtime2k
what about this "SK-EX Rendering"?

it would seem that only the CA79-99 use this sound generation system

The CA78, CA98, NV10 and NV5 also use the SK-EX Rendering, but they use the first generation, while the CA79/99 use an improved version.
However, Kawai did not think it necessary to coin a new name for the new version (like they did before, when they made improvements for example HI, HI2, PHI, HI-XL, etc.), so I assume the difference between the two is rather small.
thanks for your reply, jobert smile
I'm curious to test one of these on person

Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by Ragtime2k
what about this "SK-EX Rendering"?

it would seem that only the CA79-99 use this sound generation system

The CA78, CA98, NV10 and NV5 also use the SK-EX Rendering, but they use the first generation, while the CA79/99 use an improved version.
However, Kawai did not think it necessary to coin a new name for the new version (like they did before, when they made improvements for example HI, HI2, PHI, HI-XL, etc.), so I assume the difference between the two is rather small.


It may also be to not give the impression the 'flagship' Novus models have an outdated sound engine. I expect anew name with the Novus 11 or whatever they'll call it.
James has "kind of" confirmed that the new version doesn't have longer/larger samples, for one. I agree with JoBert, there are probably some tweaks to the audio processing for the rendering characters but nothing too major. In any case, it will be very interesting to hear the new version and see if the differences are audible.
Originally Posted by lovelovemale
Originally Posted by GNkyrios
Originally Posted by lovelovemale
Lucky the ones who live in Europe with their prices :P

Yeah, on my country its usually way more expensive, the retail price for a CA78 was $4160, i got it with an "offer" for $3330. With the price the dolar is going now they are selling the CN37 for that pricce ($3330), wich is wow. Plus they have only so much stock, they got the CN29/39 but i dont see them around anymore, they are still selling the left overs of the last gen. They have no idea when the CA79 is releasing, plus they dont bring the CA58 nor the CA98.



Where to you live?
I wish Kawai would be more aggressive in its distribution in other first world countries like the U.S. :>


Chile
Hey guys, I'm new to this forum, but I've been playing piano for a few years and I had been using a Casio Celviano AP-420 for that time. Unfortunately it has crapped out on me and several of the e flats and f sharps have are playing at seemingly max velocity regardless of how light I play them. After doing some research I decided to order the CA79, I live in Canada so pricing is rough but after some negotiation I ended up paying around 4200 CAD (3150~ USD) + tax including delivery and assembly for the satin black model, did I do alright? Also does anyone have insight on the type of bench that is included with this model?

It's apparently not in North America yet, my dealer said they are expecting stock around mid-late March, I was wondering if Kawai James had any updates on this. Also any advice on what to expect when switching pianos? I haven't been able to test any CA series pianos, but they have sounded the better to my ears compared to Yamaha's and Roland's offerings. And the GF action seems to be highly praised in this price range which helped me decide.

Anyway sorry for all the questions, I appreciate any responses, thanks.
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by Ragtime2k
what about this "SK-EX Rendering"?

it would seem that only the CA79-99 use this sound generation system

The CA78, CA98, NV10 and NV5 also use the SK-EX Rendering, but they use the first generation, while the CA79/99 use an improved version.
However, Kawai did not think it necessary to coin a new name for the new version (like they did before, when they made improvements for example HI, HI2, PHI, HI-XL, etc.), so I assume the difference between the two is rather small.


It may also be to not give the impression the 'flagship' Novus models have an outdated sound engine. I expect anew name with the Novus 11 or whatever they'll call it.

People here on the forum have been bashing manufacturers for blowing up even the teensiest feature improvements with the biggest ULTRA NATURAL SUPER PROGRESSIVE PLEASURING marketing monikers. (And probably rightfully so, in some cases.)
So now we also bash them for allegedly deliberately hiding substantial improvements, also for marketing reasons?
Talk about "damned if you do, damned if you don't".

Personally, this interpretation doesn't make sense to me. Especially since having "flagship" models that are a bit behind the curve isn't anything new for Kawai: Before the NV-line took that role, the CS-line were the flagships "above" the CAs. And for several generations, the CS-line has lagged behind the CA-line. The newest improvements were always rolled out with the CA-line, while the "flagship" CS-line was still in stores with the technology of the previous CA-line. And for longer than just a couple of months. And Kawai newer kept mum about those improvements in the newest CAs. Following that "hide the new features, so we don't make our flagship models look bad" logic, Kawai would never have marketed their improvements in the CA-line but would have kept them under wraps. Which obviously didn't happen.

So following occam's razor, I have a hard time believing that we are looking at a "there were substantial improvements, but we are not telling anyone" reverse marketing situation here.
Just received my CA79!!! 🤗

Work to do in the afternoon...
wow awesome
Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by Ragtime2k
what about this "SK-EX Rendering"?

it would seem that only the CA79-99 use this sound generation system

The CA78, CA98, NV10 and NV5 also use the SK-EX Rendering, but they use the first generation, while the CA79/99 use an improved version.
However, Kawai did not think it necessary to coin a new name for the new version (like they did before, when they made improvements for example HI, HI2, PHI, HI-XL, etc.), so I assume the difference between the two is rather small.


It may also be to not give the impression the 'flagship' Novus models have an outdated sound engine. I expect anew name with the Novus 11 or whatever they'll call it.

People here on the forum have been bashing manufacturers for blowing up even the teensiest feature improvements with the biggest ULTRA NATURAL SUPER PROGRESSIVE PLEASURING marketing monikers. (And probably rightfully so, in some cases.)
So now we also bash them for allegedly deliberately hiding substantial improvements, also for marketing reasons?
Talk about "damned if you do, damned if you don't".

Personally, this interpretation doesn't make sense to me. Especially since having "flagship" models that are a bit behind the curve isn't anything new for Kawai: Before the NV-line took that role, the CS-line were the flagships "above" the CAs. And for several generations, the CS-line has lagged behind the CA-line. The newest improvements were always rolled out with the CA-line, while the "flagship" CS-line was still in stores with the technology of the previous CA-line. And for longer than just a couple of months. And Kawai newer kept mum about those improvements in the newest CAs. Following that "hide the new features, so we don't make our flagship models look bad" logic, Kawai would never have marketed their improvements in the CA-line but would have kept them under wraps. Which obviously didn't happen.

So following occam's razor, I have a hard time believing that we are looking at a "there were substantial improvements, but we are not telling anyone" reverse marketing situation here.


1) I never bashed Kawai for their marketing, and am not bashing them now. I don't care what they call features, just providing a possible interpretation.
2) Improvements are not 'substantial' Vs 'not 'substantial', that seems a needlessly reductionist binary perspective.
3) CA98 vs CS11 is not nearly the same as CA99 Vs Novus10. I am quite sure the average person buying a €10,000 digital piano twice as expensive as anything else offered by that brand would expect everything to be top of the line.

We'll see what is what, but I think in this case Occam's razor can be placed back in it's box. wink
Originally Posted by OldDog
Just received my CA79!!! 🤗

Work to do in the afternoon...


Cool! Don't be shy about sharing vids and pics! :P
Originally Posted by OldDog
Just received my CA79!!! 🤗

Work to do in the afternoon...

That's not fair. Still waiting for mine... Should also arrive today.
Originally Posted by Martinez
Originally Posted by OldDog
Just received my CA79!!! 🤗

Work to do in the afternoon...

That's not fair. Still waiting for mine... Should also arrive today.


Heck, I don't even know when I will receive mine. smirk
Hi! I'm new to this forum. I have been playing piano for ten years and considering in buying Kawai CA99 or Kawai NV5 to replace my Casio PX-780M. Which one is better in terms of action? And also, which one will last longer. I mostly play classical pieces and anime covers (Animenz, Theishter, etc.).
Someone on another thread said ca99 action is bad and they played nv5 and nv10, so I'm guessing the nv5 is a lot better than ca99, it's kind of put me off a ca99 hearing this bad news, I thought the action was supposed to be very good.
Originally Posted by mwf
Someone on another thread said ca99 action is bad and they played nv5 and nv10, so I'm guessing the nv5 is a lot better than ca99, it's kind of put me off a ca99 hearing this bad news, I thought the action was supposed to be very good.


Action feel is so personal, it makes absolutely no sense to take any other person's experience as gospel. You might play the CA99 and like its action better than the NV5 or NV10. You really just have to try for yourself and make your own determination.
Originally Posted by mwf
Someone on another thread said ca99 action is bad and they played nv5 and nv10, so I'm guessing the nv5 is a lot better than ca99, it's kind of put me off a ca99 hearing this bad news, I thought the action was supposed to be very good.


Literally every single opinion but that one says it is an improvement over the GF-II, widely considered among the best digital actions, if not the best action. If *one* person on the entire planet having a negative opinion puts you off it without trying it yourself I suggest not reading any opinions on any product...

Originally Posted by Gombessa


Action feel is so personal, it makes absolutely no sense to take any other person's experience as gospel. You might play the CA99 and like its action better than the NV5 or NV10. You really just have to try for yourself and make your own determination.


Absolutely. If the entire planet would hate how an instrument plays that I love, well, that would be everyone's problem but mine. laugh
Originally Posted by Nordomus
I want to confirm this- can you tune piano in pianist mode on ca79 and ca99?

Anyone?
If I were you I would take these two comments to heart ...
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Action feel is so personal, it makes absolutely no sense to take any other person's experience as gospel.
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
If *one* person on the entire planet having a negative opinion puts you off it without trying it yourself I suggest not reading any opinions on any product.
Ya jus' gots ta try 'em fo' youself. And be your own judge.
Hi folks. My CA99 arrived a couple hours ago and is up and running. Very excited. I’d be happy to answer and questions but bear in mind I’m a newbie to piano. Been taking lessons for a year. And I’m old! Got the rosewood and I think its gorgeous. Still figuring out the electronic choices. I’ve been an avid reader on these forums while I tried to make decisions. BTW I also acquired a 97 yr old A B Chase six foot grand (loose action but sounds fabulous) and a free Baldwin upright that also sounds great.
Originally Posted by Nordomus
Originally Posted by Nordomus
I want to confirm this- can you tune piano in pianist mode on ca79 and ca99?

Anyone?


According to the manual, yes. However, 'pianist' mode in CA79 seems to combine all piano sounds, whereas with the CA78 it only included SK-EX sound. So I am not sure if you can actually tune the SK-EX piano in pianist mode or only the pianos that used to be under the 'sounds' tab. Sorry, cant say more than that so hope some of the proud new owners can help you out!
Ok. First and quick review (1 hour playing):

- it is really heavy 😂
- to me, the action is fan tas tic: perfect weight, surface feel.. Lets hope it last long
- piano sound is superb 😍😍😍 i cannot compare with ca78 but ca79 is really nice
- i miss a little bit of power for speakers, but the quality of the sound through them is pleasing
- the rosewood finish is really beautiful

I played a bit of Chopin and La La Land OST (mellow settings)

Originally Posted by OldDog
Ok. First and quick review (1 hour playing):

- it is really heavy 😂
- to me, the action is fan tas tic: perfect weight, surface feel.. Lets hope it last long
- piano sound is superb 😍😍😍 i cannot compare with ca78 but ca79 is really nice
- i miss a little bit of power for speakers, but the quality of the sound through them is pleasing
- the rosewood finish is really beautiful

I played a bit of Chopin and La La Land OST (mellow settings)



That is pretty much exactly what I'd wanted to hear. laugh Is there any chance of recording a video with the line-out sound, or some pics? Waiting for my 79-rosewood and every pic eases the pain of waiting... laugh

Originally Posted by MaxDad
Hi folks. My CA99 arrived a couple hours ago and is up and running. Very excited. I’d be happy to answer and questions but bear in mind I’m a newbie to piano. Been taking lessons for a year. And I’m old! Got the rosewood and I think its gorgeous. Still figuring out the electronic choices. I’ve been an avid reader on these forums while I tried to make decisions. BTW I also acquired a 97 yr old A B Chase six foot grand (loose action but sounds fabulous) and a free Baldwin upright that also sounds great.


Ha, do you live in a castle that you have so much space for pianos? Must be wonderful to have such a choice! Welcome and enjoy the CA99!
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
Absolutely. If the entire planet would hate how an instrument plays that I love, well, that would be everyone's problem but mine. laugh

Realistically, that is not true, it would likely become your problem in short order. Your preferred instrument would either never be made or never be made again.

So it's in your best interests to get that CA79/CA99 club started... 😉
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
Originally Posted by Martinez
Originally Posted by OldDog
Just received my CA79!!! 🤗

Work to do in the afternoon...

That's not fair. Still waiting for mine... Should also arrive today.


Heck, I don't even know when I will receive mine. smirk

I know this won't make you feel any better, but mine also arrived today...
Originally Posted by OldDog
Ok. First and quick review (1 hour playing):

- it is really heavy 😂
- to me, the action is fan tas tic: perfect weight, surface feel.. Lets hope it last long
- piano sound is superb 😍😍😍 i cannot compare with ca78 but ca79 is really nice
- i miss a little bit of power for speakers, but the quality of the sound through them is pleasing
- the rosewood finish is really beautiful

I played a bit of Chopin and La La Land OST (mellow settings)

Mine also arrived today. That is a large and heavy box... I was happy that the guy who delivered it helped me to get it into my apartment and my two neighbors helped me lift the main unit onto the base. Since I am just starting to learn playing piano, my review would be irrelevant... But I love it!
Yeah, You are right. The action of a piano seems to be subjective, but unfortunately I live in Panama, where there is a small amount of pianos to choose from. None of my local dealer sell an updated piano. Still, I will go for the CA99. It's cheaper, and I have tested a GFI from CS7, which blew me away. Thanks for the replies!!!
Originally Posted by Martinez
I know this won't make you feel any better, but mine also arrived today...


Actually, knowing others get to already enjoy it does make me feel a bit better. smile Have fun!
I envy everybody so much 👀
Since I sold my CA 99 I haven’t played and I miss playing a lot :S
Hope you all enjoy your beautiful pianos 🤩
Originally Posted by lovelovemale
I envy everybody so much 👀
Since I sold my CA 99 I haven’t played and I miss playing a lot :S
Hope you all enjoy your beautiful pianos 🤩

You bought the new CA99, and sold right after?
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Originally Posted by lovelovemale
I envy everybody so much 👀
Since I sold my CA 99 I haven’t played and I miss playing a lot :S
Hope you all enjoy your beautiful pianos 🤩

You bought the new CA99, and sold right after?


CA98, he had to move.
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
CA98, he had to move.

Ok, now it makes sense... smile
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
Originally Posted by Nordomus
Originally Posted by Nordomus
I want to confirm this- can you tune piano in pianist mode on ca79 and ca99?

Anyone?


According to the manual, yes. However, 'pianist' mode in CA79 seems to combine all piano sounds, whereas with the CA78 it only included SK-EX sound. So I am not sure if you can actually tune the SK-EX piano in pianist mode or only the pianos that used to be under the 'sounds' tab. Sorry, cant say more than that so hope some of the proud new owners can help you out!

Thanks.
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
According to the manual, yes. However, 'pianist' mode in CA79 seems to combine all piano sounds, whereas with the CA78 it only included SK-EX sound. So I am not sure if you can actually tune the SK-EX piano in pianist mode or only the pianos that used to be under the 'sounds' tab.


The CA99/CA79 allow Tuning and Transpose for all piano sounds. Here's a quick screen capture to demonstrate:

[Linked Image]

Kind regards,
James
x
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
According to the manual, yes. However, 'pianist' mode in CA79 seems to combine all piano sounds, whereas with the CA78 it only included SK-EX sound. So I am not sure if you can actually tune the SK-EX piano in pianist mode or only the pianos that used to be under the 'sounds' tab.


The CA99/CA79 allow Tuning and Transpose for all piano sounds. Here's a quick screen capture to demonstrate:

[Linked Image]

Kind regards,
James
x


Cool, that was what I was hoping for. smile
Thank you everyone for the pictures of the rosewood version, today I went to a local store where they had the ca79 in black satin, after trying it finally I ordered it in black .
Thanks for your help.
Hi, just joined this forum and have just ordered the CA99 from Bonners (who are excellent btw) in Ebony black which im told should arrive later this month. Cant wait!

I used to own a Roland HP605 then went to a Kawai NV5 then to the current Roland LX708 now to the Kawai CA99. Long story...

I've been playing the CA99 and 79, Yahama CLP685 and others in store. Kawai wins it for me

Interestingly though, i played the CA99 on Saturday and thought it lacked a little with regards to the lower frequencies. Tony from Bonners went into the menu and adjusted the Bass boost which quickly bought it to life.

Also found out there's new firmware coming which will enable mobiles / ipads to mirror the controls. Think most know this by now.

Kawai are also adding EQ control in a future firmware update which will give you even more audio control . Im told the processor in the CA79 & CA99 touch panel is better than say the TP in the NV5 and other models and is easier to update.

The bad news for piano's with the original touch panel layout (NV5 etc) is that this cannot be updated to the new TP layout on the CA79/99.





For those who care, maybe not the most virtuoso performance ever, but a nice HD look at the rosewood 79:



Originally Posted by StevieG1975
Hi, just joined this forum and have just ordered the CA99 from Bonners (who are excellent btw) in Ebony black which im told should arrive later this month. Cant wait!

I used to own a Roland HP605 then went to a Kawai NV5 then to the current Roland LX708 now to the Kawai CA99. Long story...


Hello and welcome! Out of curiosity, how would you compare the NV5 with the CA99, and why did you decide on the latter?
Do we have a time frame when these and the NV5 will be available in the U.S.?
Hi, first and foremost the NV5 is one of the best digital pianos hands down. I had some issues with mine on delivery but to be fair I think I was one of the unlucky one’s. My supplier eventually agreed to swap it for another Piano as I wasn’t overly happy.

Remember I mentioned I had a Roland HP605, well the key action / weight was very light when you compare it to the NV5. I guess I jumped to the NV5 too soon and in a way took a gamble as I knew the keys had more weight but thought I could adjust and get used to it.

If you’re coming from an acoustic piano or a weightier key action as say the Yamaha then the NV5 will suit you fine. Unfortunately for me I struggled especially when playing fast tempo songs. Again it was a personal thing and no bad reflection on the NV5.

Remember, the mechanics of the NV5 Is nearly like acoustic piano minus the strings so realism to an acoustic couldn’t be any closer.

Quality of the build, sounds and service by Kawai is second to none.

But, I did have a couple of niggles:

I didn’t particularly like the touch panel layout. I don’t have sausage fingers by any means but there were times wrong buttons were selected when trying to navigate which got frustrating after a while. I did notice key/ sound cut off when switching from the elite pianos to other pianos /instruments which I thought that was a thing of the past. Selection and swiping was a bit laggy too and not as smooth as hoped.

Lastly I struggled to get the audio quality to where I wanted it to be and it sounded a little too mid ranged for my liking, again its a personal thing. It annoyed me to the point where I started searching the web for acoustic wall panels and piano carpets just to give it that depth /base I was looking for

Thanks





Hello StevieG1975,

Originally Posted by StevieG1975
I did notice key/ sound cut off when switching from the elite pianos to other pianos /instruments which I thought that was a thing of the past.


The NV5 essentially has two separate sound engines: SK-EX Rendering (aka "Pianist mode") and Harmonic Imaging XL (aka "Sound mode"). When switching between the two sound engines, there will be a momentary break in sound - as far as I'm aware, this is unavoidable. However, I don't believe it's such a big problem on a home-oriented instrument such as the NV5, as most users will not be frequently switching sounds mid-song.

Kind regards,
James
x
Originally Posted by Kawai James
... as most users will not be frequently switching sounds mid-song.

Wrong! My kids start switching sounds as soon as I start to play. Not sure this is a valid use case though...
crazy confused
Interestingly, this review also remarks on how the GF-III is a bit lighter than GF-II.


Mine will arrive saturday (when I aint home, oh cruel fate!) so I'll experience it myself on sunday. smile
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
For those who care, maybe not the most virtuoso performance ever, but a nice HD look at the rosewood 79:



It's very well played, I would listen with pleasure full piece played by you. It actually fits Kawai sound very well, it sounds soft and deep.
Originally Posted by Nordomus
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
For those who care, maybe not the most virtuoso performance ever, but a nice HD look at the rosewood 79:



It's very well played, I would listen with pleasure full piece played by you. It actually fits Kawai sound very well, it sounds soft and deep.


Ha, that is not me and I can assure you the odds are high you would not enjoy listening to me play a full piece! :P
Disappointed with the reported light action of the GFIII since my teacher is using a Yamaha grand and I fear it will be difficult to adjust every week from one to another. Will go on Saturday for a test in the local shop.
I didn't have any trouble moving between a Grand Feel (lighter than GF2) and Yamaha C3 grand; I think it's just a matter of normal acclimation.
I'm the same, I've got the Kawai MP11SE with the original grand feel, and play every now and then on a Yamaha SX6.

The SX6 is definitely a heavy action in comparison. It is definitely more work and if I played it for any length of time I would feel it.

However adjusting to the Yamaha SX6 is easy compared to adjusting to my teachers upright which has a light action. I am always astounded how quickly I can adjust from my MP11SE to the Yamaha grand and feel like I have good control over the regulation.
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
Interestingly, this review also remarks on how the GF-III is a bit lighter than GF-II.

Maybe he read it on this forum...
His video was posted on Feb 27.
Originally Posted by grd-dan
His video was posted on Feb 27.


It went 'live' this afternoon, youtube allows for re-uploading minutes before that. He basically just had an 'coming soon; click notify if you want youtube to alert you when it is actually viewable' screen setup. So no clue when it was recorded. A bit puzzled why KawaiJames so far has stayed out of it, surely he knows if it is lighter or not, and if so, how much.
It was released on their company Facebook account last week, on the date I’ve noted above. Think it was slightly smaller, but mentioned the same thing, lighter keyboard.
Date is irrelevant but since several sources mentioned the same, it’ likely true. Curious indeed if someone will weight the keys or James will add more light on this. Maybe this was done on purpose, never played an SK EX, maybe the GF iii action is closer to it
Maybe keyboard is just "lighter" like Steinwey pianos, meaning faster. We certainly need clarification for this, for me GFII has spot on weight, I don't think I want it lighter.
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
A bit puzzled why KawaiJames so far has stayed out of it.

My apologies, I wasn't aware that I needed to respond to every piece of speculation posted on the internet... ;p

For what it's worth, I'm not aware of any change in touch weight on the GFIII action.

However, I know that the action is faster and more responsive than previous GF actions, so it's possible that some players may confuse this change as simply being "lighter".

Kind regards,
James
x
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
A bit puzzled why KawaiJames so far has stayed out of it.

My apologies, I wasn't aware that I needed to respond to every piece of speculation posted on the internet... ;p

For what it's worth, I'm not aware of any change in touch weight on the GFIII action.

However, I know that the action is faster and more responsive than previous GF actions, so it's possible that some players may confuse this change as simply being "lighter".

Kind regards,
James
x


Thanks. Oh, you are not required to answer, but when the sensei remains silent the students grow restless. :P
@ Kawai James, thank you for your clarification. Very useful.
As proud user of a Kawai CA79 i can tell the action is fantastic... as it happens among grand pianos some are heavier than others... but all of them have grand piano actions. GFIII feels really nice (i come from an acoustic upright)... it someone has interest in the action weight I can measure it (not super accurately though).
Originally Posted by Kawai James
However, I know that the action is faster and more responsive than previous GF actions, so it's possible that some players may confuse this change as simply being "lighter".

My speculation is that the perceived weight and speed of an action is a combination of the static weight of the keys and the friction. With the changes in the GFIII that removes the problematic teflon tape, I'd guess (and hope!) that friction is reduced but the static key weight has stayed the same, thereby producing a faster action that feels lighter.

Unfortunately the pianos have not yet arrived in Switzerland, but I'm looking forward to testing it to see if my two biggest gripes with the CA98 - the spongy key bottom and boxy sound - have been improved.
Hi guys

Someone owning the CA x9 can record the key noise with volume off or off piano?
Honestly, I do not think you can get an idea through a recording as it depends on microphones, compression of audio etc... i can tell you is low and soft... it should not bother anyone
Originally Posted by OldDog
As proud user of a Kawai CA79 i can tell the action is fantastic... as it happens among grand pianos some are heavier than others... but all of them have grand piano actions. GFIII feels really nice (i come from an acoustic upright)... it someone has interest in the action weight I can measure it (not super accurately though).


If you could test that it'd be great
Originally Posted by Giko Gomez
Hi guys

Someone owning the CA x9 can record the key noise with volume off or off piano?



Key noise is relative to something else. Just recording the noise alone gives little indication of how good/bad it is. It is missing the sonic equivalent of 'banana for scale'.
If i can visit a big shop, i 'll record some pianos with my phone, is not too good, but being the same phone, if someone sounds loud, then is loud.
i dont want bring my H6 in vacation.
But you all are correct, if a single piano, there is no chance of comparation
I have the option of part-exchanging my CA97 for a CA99. Has anyone actually tried or received one yet and given a decent review?
Originally Posted by Giko Gomez
If i can visit a big shop, i 'll record some pianos with my phone, is not too good, but being the same phone, if someone sounds loud, then is loud.

A phone will usually apply a variable gain to the microphone to make everything the same level.
I felt both GFI (MP11SE) and GFII (CA98) were pretty light in their action. Having played many grands (Yamaha, Kawai, M&H, Boston, Steinway), both of them are far from a grand action. Given GFIII is an incremental improvement, I fear the light action claims might end up to be true (don't know what Kawai wants to emulate here).
Only the NV10 felt like the real deal to me. The question I always have in my mind is that if GF series is a grand action, why is so different from the NV10 action ?
Oh no! Another mention of the **real** grand feel of the NV10 ... which I won't own for at least another year.
I hate the tease! frown
Originally Posted by LazyLizard
Only the NV10 felt like the real deal to me. The question I always have in my mind is that if GF series is a grand action, why is so different from the NV10 action ?


The GF-series isn't a real grand action. It's a digital action made to feel like a grand (as every other digital piano manufacturer also tries to do). How well they succeed in this varies to a great degree.

The reason the NV-10 felt real to you is because that one IS a real grand piano action smile
Originally Posted by LazyLizard
I felt both GFI (MP11SE) and GFII (CA98) were pretty light in their action. Having played many grands (Yamaha, Kawai, M&H, Boston, Steinway), both of them are far from a grand action. Given GFIII is an incremental improvement, I fear the light action claims might end up to be true (don't know what Kawai wants to emulate here).
Only the NV10 felt like the real deal to me. The question I always have in my mind is that if GF series is a grand action, why is so different from the NV10 action ?


There must be something subjetive in digital piano weight feel, since I feel almost every accoustic piano I play lighter than my MP11, and many of them even lighter than the CL35. Could it be due to regulation? Somewhere I read that in old times, actions were light, and accoustic pianos in Argentina are mostly more than 50 or 80 years old.
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Oh no! Another mention of the **real** grand feel of the NV10 ... which I won't own for at least another year.
I hate the tease! frown


Well, there may be NV11 or NV20 out there by then - so you may get the latest and greatest smile

BTW, have you decided on NV10?

Osho
No, I haven't decided. Indeed, where I'll be moving next year there are no Kawai dealers. I'll have to travel 100 miles across state lines to find one.
today i found the piano in vienna, and i liked it.
Is very silent, especially compared to that piano with transparent cabinet and action like upright- This was really noising, i cannot imagine someone playing that piano with someone else reading or studying in the same room.

I also heard a detuning betweel Ab2 and c5, like a real piano not perfectly tuned,
I know that we can tune the piano, but why is not tuned by factory?
Originally Posted by Giko Gomez
today i found the piano in vienna, and i liked it.
Is very silent, especially compared to that piano with transparent cabinet and action like upright


May I ask which "piano with transparent cabinet" you are referring to?
I believe both Yamaha and Kawai produces versions of the NU1X and NV5 respectively which transparent upper boards, revealing the action inside.

Originally Posted by Giko Gomez
I also heard a detuning betweel Ab2 and c5, like a real piano not perfectly tuned


Can you provide more detail, please? Which sound did you use? Did you perform a Factory Reset to ensure that all settings were restored to the original defaults?

Kind regards,
James
x
I have one more question about new software, does it remember ambience type along with piano preset? It bugs me that ambience turns itself back on on it's own to default value while changing presets.
James, any chance you could clarify this point on the CA79/99:

- Authentic new electric piano, organ, harpsichord, strings, and bass sounds

Looking at the list of sounds in the user manual they look more or less the same as the 78/98, so have Kawai used new samples for the above mentioned sounds?
I am interested in buying a CA99. Can someone tell me the current fair price? (I live in the USA) I'm also considering the Roland LX 708 or 706. Which one of those two models are closer to the price of the CA99?
Got to try the CA 79 today for an hour and was very impressed. It is incredibly fun to play and should be realistic enough for most needs. I found the action more "fun" to play than brand new Kawai uprights that were also available to try.
The harder Keybed is a huge upgrade compared to GF1&2. Also the key noise is noticeably quieter than my Korg D1 at home. Sound is very nice for a digital.
Originally Posted by richdinoso
I am interested in buying a CA99. Can someone tell me the current fair price? (I live in the USA) I'm also considering the Roland LX 708 or 706. Which one of those two models are closer to the price of the CA99?



Over here the CA99 is pretty much in between both Roland's price-wise.
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
Originally Posted by richdinoso
I am interested in buying a CA99. Can someone tell me the current fair price? (I live in the USA) I'm also considering the Roland LX 708 or 706. Which one of those two models are closer to the price of the CA99?



Over here the CA99 is pretty much in between both Roland's price-wise.


Thank you. It is so annoying that here in the USA, we can't get a solid price on the higher-end models like the CA99. For example, the CA58, you can order online with a click of a button, but with CA99, you have to guess the correct price and haggle your local dealer. Such a strange business model.
Originally Posted by richdinoso
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
Originally Posted by richdinoso
I am interested in buying a CA99. Can someone tell me the current fair price? (I live in the USA) I'm also considering the Roland LX 708 or 706. Which one of those two models are closer to the price of the CA99?



Over here the CA99 is pretty much in between both Roland's price-wise.


Thank you. It is so annoying that here in the USA, we can't get a solid price on the higher-end models like the CA99. For example, the CA58, you can order online with a click of a button, but with CA99, you have to guess the correct price and haggle your local dealer. Such a strange business model.


As a guideline you can use Thomann's prices. They allow you to select the US and US$ and provide some rough estimate:
https://www.thomannmusic.com/kawai_...amp;sid=ee7f23f3ff91390536023a57d6787f0b

Of course, I imagine final shipping might end up a bit over the esitmated $40...
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by Giko Gomez
today i found the piano in vienna, and i liked it.
Is very silent, especially compared to that piano with transparent cabinet and action like upright


May I ask which "piano with transparent cabinet" you are referring to?
I believe both Yamaha and Kawai produces versions of the NU1X and NV5 respectively which transparent upper boards, revealing the action inside.

Originally Posted by Giko Gomez
I also heard a detuning betweel Ab2 and c5, like a real piano not perfectly tuned


Can you provide more detail, please? Which sound did you use? Did you perform a Factory Reset to ensure that all settings were restored to the original defaults?

Kind regards,
James
x

i was in shop, then i was shy to apply a factory reset, considering also that i dont know how to do.
Well was not a big issue, simply like a piano that start to detuning, but not enough for call a techician.

About the trasparent capinet i dont remember, i took video of mani dp key noises, but at start of every video i pronunced the model of the piano, then, when i will come back home, i will order and publik an YT with all the dp, including a rare Bluethner DP
Originally Posted by richdinoso
I am interested in buying a CA99. Can someone tell me the current fair price? (I live in the USA) I'm also considering the Roland LX 708 or 706. Which one of those two models are closer to the price of the CA99?


Most US dealers don't even have one yet, so we have little pricing data to compare.
It's sort of like asking, "What's the current fair price for a Corvette C8?" They just started shipping the first batch.
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Originally Posted by richdinoso
I am interested in buying a CA99. Can someone tell me the current fair price? (I live in the USA) I'm also considering the Roland LX 708 or 706. Which one of those two models are closer to the price of the CA99?


Most US dealers don't even have one yet, so we have little pricing data to compare.
It's sort of like asking, "What's the current fair price for a Corvette C8?" They just started shipping the first batch.


Not entirely. As with most products, dealers in any given region pay a pre-determined price to Kawai for each unit. This determines the price point the consumer pays. Typically, in Europe a fixed profit margin is maintained, and that is the price you'll pay: they wont go lower as that wont be profitable, but you won't need to haggle to get a good price. With the Kawai CA78 this ended up as roughly E2750 in the end; you could walk into any piano store in Belgium, Germany, France, Italy, the Netherlands or Spain for example, and that would be the price you'd pay. Some stores (like one dealer in Belgium) only list the MSRP, but you can just say:"I'd like to pay E2750" and they'd go "yeah sure.". Ask for E2650 and it'll be a solid no. I have no idea what they actually earn per unit sold, but whatever it is seems to be consistent between European countries. New DP models are typically sold at around 90% of MSRP, and then drop lower as time goes on.

In the US they (mostly) havent received them yet, but they might very well know what they have to pay Kawai, so they know what profit margins they have when they offer you a certain price. The primary difference is US consumers are a bit more in the dark as to what price dealers are willing to accept, and what would be simply unreasonable to ask from a dealer. Of course, no dealer is going to let us on about what they have to pay Kawai (as that would give us a negotiating position no dealer wants us to have), and I can only assume this is dependent on the region. Which is why in Region A two competing models can be priced identically, whereas in another region one might be considerably more expensive than the other. The US previously seemed to pay relatively more for Kawai DPs than we do over here (same with Yamaha?), but when you know the CA99 over here is +-10% more expensive than the CA98 sold for recently than you have a ballpark estimate as to what a CA99 should cost.
New video on the CA99 with beautiful sound demo. Can only listen with HIRES Audio add-on. Otherwise explaination will not render correctly (and sound demo only in reduced quality). Hope they will fix this for all Youtubers:

https://youtu.be/YDeC3HYHvPQ

Posted this, because the sound demo is one of the best available *great*

Galuwen
Hires audio add-on?
I was playing the CA99 about 2 hrs in Vienna on last Thursday. The digital with the transparent front panel the guy above was referring to, was NU1X.

Impressions: The sound is really good, even at the low volume levels. I liked it more than that of CLP685. The main weak point, however, remains the key action. Even so not disastrous as the key action of CA78 was, the spongy bottom feeling was still there. The CA78 was placed right next to the CA99. I simultaneously played them, each with one hand, so I could tell. The yamaha CLP 685 was right behind me. It was a big relief to play it after CA99. The Novus NV5 is another story (as for the key action) but it is too expensive for me.

It is a matter of pesronal taste, probably. So, I'm still undecided what to buy, either a perfect piano sound or a better key action.
Originally Posted by mikepis

It is a matter of pesronal taste, probably. So, I'm still undecided what to buy, either a perfect piano sound or a better key action.


I'd always go for the better action. And it definitely is personal; to me the CLP6xx actions (645, 675, 685) were all not even remotely in the same class as the CA78. To the point that I considered it only a marginal improvement over my ancient p140. Have you tried the Roland lx706? If the Kawai CAs were not available I'd get the Roland. And if that were not available I'd simply not upgrade at all. :P
Originally Posted by sleutelbos

Not entirely. As with most products, dealers in any given region pay a pre-determined price to Kawai for each unit. This determines the price point the consumer pays.


Although your logic is sound, this is an oversimplification.

Which price is the dealer paying? The price to pay cash, or price to “floor” (finance) the inventory? For some dealers, that arrangement changes over a set period of having unsold inventory, which can change what they think is an appropriate selling price, dynamically. Also there are different types of dealer financing arrangements, some through the manufacturers (typically short term), and others through banks.
Which price, the one the dealer pays if they take 2 units, or 10?
Which price, when distributors or companies sometimes offer different wholesale “deals” to dealers at different points in the product life cycle? Also keep in mind two major DP manufacturers, including Kawai, run rebates and other special promotions, which can change the final price to the customer.

All these factors, in addition to the historical peculiarities of how pianos are sold in North America, will add variability into the price the customer pays.
Well, it has arrived. cool Picture taken with an el-cheapo smartphone. The speaker cloth is much darker than I had expected, and the entire unit looks great in person. laugh

[Linked Image]
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
[quote=sleutelbos]
I'd always go for the better action. And it definitely is personal; to me the CLP6xx actions (645, 675, 685) were all not even remotely in the same class as the CA78. To the point that I considered it only a marginal improvement over my ancient p140. Have you tried the Roland lx706? If the Kawai CAs were not available I'd get the Roland. And if that were not available I'd simply not upgrade at all. :P


Maybe you are right. I like the heavy key action of yamahas. Maybe, I need to get used to the Kawai CA series different action. I have to admit that e.g. trills (Couperin, Scarlatti sonatas) are much easier and with less force to play on that CA99.

On the other hand,yamaha clp 675 and 685 seem to me better suited for playnig improvisations and rock songs requiring some rhythm patterns.

Rolands - no, I have not tried any Roland. I had RD-800 at home and got fed up with its processed metallic "supernatural" piano sound
Finally found a CA79 to test. Decided to order one right after.
Comparing to CA78 the action was faster. Much faster. Felt also lighter, at least compared to the grand Yamaha which I’ve used right after with my teacher. Clearly a difference but easy to switch from one to another.
Tested also a Yamaha 685 that was next to the CA79. Good action, heavier but somehow the Yamaha let off escapement was less good to my touch than the CA.
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
Well, it has arrived. cool Picture taken with an el-cheapo smartphone. The speaker cloth is much darker than I had expected, and the entire unit looks great in person. laugh


Stop messing around: go play it for several hours and report back!!! laugh
Originally Posted by TheophilusCarter
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
Well, it has arrived. cool Picture taken with an el-cheapo smartphone. The speaker cloth is much darker than I had expected, and the entire unit looks great in person. laugh


Stop messing around: go play it for several hours and report back!!! laugh


totally agree. I will be brief: after playing a full week, 2-3 hrs a day, I can tell the piano is fantastic. The furniture is nice, the sound (both through speakers and headphones) is really pleasing and the action, although it is always a matter of taste, is really good. Unless you are Martha Argerich you wont limit your playing with this piano... that’s for sure... for this price tag, i dont think it can get any better... i hope it does not suffer any technical issue in the future!

If you can, try one... and what is more important, practice a lot... this is a piano forum not an electric guitar one 😂😂😂😂. 🤘🏻
Originally Posted by TheophilusCarter
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
Well, it has arrived. cool Picture taken with an el-cheapo smartphone. The speaker cloth is much darker than I had expected, and the entire unit looks great in person. laugh


Stop messing around: go play it for several hours and report back!!! laugh


Some very limited and early impressions, as I apparently not merely received a piano but also the flu. :P The action seems a bit faster, and less 'spongey' at the bottom. Something really odd and psychological in nature; when I set the volume really low, it feels spongier than with the volume at more normal settings. Not quite sure what my brain is doing. Speakers sound great to me, way more than enough volume. The UI is simple to use without needing a manual, but it very much is slow. Reminds me of smartphones at the end of their life. Once the app is available I'll probably use a tablet instead. I've ordered two cables, one dual female XLR to TRS mini-jack (for line-in) and one dual jack to dual jack to record the line out. I'll see about recording a video when they arrive and I feel a bit more fresh.

In short: so far it plays, sounds and looks great. More later. :P
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
Something really odd and psychological in nature; when I set the volume really low, it feels spongier than with the volume at more normal settings. Not quite sure what my brain is doing.


Oh, yes: you're not alone. I've noticed my various DPs' actions "feel" different depending on volume, the voice I'm using, which room I'm in, etc. Weird, huh?
@sleutelbos: I made a small correction to your piano photo.
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
Well, it has arrived. cool Picture taken with an el-cheapo smartphone.

[Linked Image]
Could someone who has bought a ca79 recently (there seems to be quite a lot!), try a vst through the speakers and let us know how it sounds, preferably garritan cfx lol..

Thank you
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
@sleutelbos: I made a small correction to your piano photo.


laugh laugh laugh
Hahaha!
I was able to play the CA79 at my local dealer and compare it with the CA99, NV10, NV5, CA58, K300 Aures. In terms of the action, it felt responsive - definitely not as a good as the NV10 or NV5 but those are much more expensive. The onboard speakers sounded good - at higher volumes I did notice that there's a slight buzzing noise when hitting lower notes if I put my ear close to the speaker. I tried replicating it on NV10 and NV5 and this occurred as well so assuming that this is normal. From a distance you couldn't hear the slight buzzing sound. I was blown away by the sound when using headphones however! It sounded so clear without any distortion. I was really impressed with the sound when using headphones. I also compared it with the CA99 but didn't like the 99 that much because I felt it had too much resonance caused by the wooden soundboard (even with the reverb tweaked). It made some songs sound muddy. NV10 and NV5 definitely felt better in terms of the action and of course the K300 Aures was the best imo (best of both worlds but at a price of $12k). My dealer was offering the CA79 for $3600 which to me, seemed pretty high and he was pretty firm on no negotiations. Is this what you guys are experiencing in terms of price? Overall, impressed with the CA79.
That's a little under €3200, roughly on par with what many European stores ask. Around here you can have better deals, but from what I hear you typically pay more in the States. Doesn't seem a bad deal to me.
It’s $3600 plus tax!
Originally Posted by TomLC
It’s $3600 plus tax!


Indeed, which brings it up to $3800. I saw the prices paid forum where someone in Italy bought it for around $2800 euros or $3100. Dealer said that the internals for the European one is different from the US one which makes the US one more expensive.

Considering the ES8 as an alternative - does it have the same sound engine as the CA79?
Forgot to add that the touchscreen interfaces on the CA79 and 99 are still very laggy and unresponsive (kind of like an old android smartphone from 5 years ago), which was disappointing. Don't expect iPhone level fluidity haha.
Could someone comment on how Classic compares to Classic2 on these pianos?
The dealer said?
Originally Posted by tifa3
I saw the prices paid forum where someone in Italy bought it for around $2800 euros or $3100.
Dealer said that the internals for the European one is different from the US one which makes the US one more expensive.
Let's see ... the US version runs on 120 VAC. The European version runs on 240 VAC. Yep, that makes the US model more expensive. (Not.)
Originally Posted by tifa3
I was able to play the CA79 at my local dealer and compare it with the CA99, NV10, NV5, CA58, K300 Aures. In terms of the action, it felt responsive - definitely not as a good as the NV10 or NV5 but those are much more expensive. The onboard speakers sounded good - at higher volumes I did notice that there's a slight buzzing noise when hitting lower notes if I put my ear close to the speaker. I tried replicating it on NV10 and NV5 and this occurred as well so assuming that this is normal. From a distance you couldn't hear the slight buzzing sound. I was blown away by the sound when using headphones however! It sounded so clear without any distortion. I was really impressed with the sound when using headphones. I also compared it with the CA99 but didn't like the 99 that much because I felt it had too much resonance caused by the wooden soundboard (even with the reverb tweaked). It made some songs sound muddy. NV10 and NV5 definitely felt better in terms of the action and of course the K300 Aures was the best imo (best of both worlds but at a price of $12k). My dealer was offering the CA79 for $3600 which to me, seemed pretty high and he was pretty firm on no negotiations. Is this what you guys are experiencing in terms of price? Overall, impressed with the CA79.


Is this dealer in the USA? What was their price for the CA99?
Originally Posted by richdinoso
Originally Posted by tifa3
I was able to play the CA79 at my local dealer and compare it with the CA99, NV10, NV5, CA58, K300 Aures. In terms of the action, it felt responsive - definitely not as a good as the NV10 or NV5 but those are much more expensive. The onboard speakers sounded good - at higher volumes I did notice that there's a slight buzzing noise when hitting lower notes if I put my ear close to the speaker. I tried replicating it on NV10 and NV5 and this occurred as well so assuming that this is normal. From a distance you couldn't hear the slight buzzing sound. I was blown away by the sound when using headphones however! It sounded so clear without any distortion. I was really impressed with the sound when using headphones. I also compared it with the CA99 but didn't like the 99 that much because I felt it had too much resonance caused by the wooden soundboard (even with the reverb tweaked). It made some songs sound muddy. NV10 and NV5 definitely felt better in terms of the action and of course the K300 Aures was the best imo (best of both worlds but at a price of $12k). My dealer was offering the CA79 for $3600 which to me, seemed pretty high and he was pretty firm on no negotiations. Is this what you guys are experiencing in terms of price? Overall, impressed with the CA79.


Is this dealer in the USA? What was their price for the CA99?


Yes, dealer is in the USA. Close to $5,000. Btw Ebony Polish has a surcharge of $500 crazy


Originally Posted by tifa3


Yes, dealer is in the USA. Close to $5,000. Btw Ebony Polish has a surcharge of $500 crazy


Where in the USA was this dealer?, If you don't mind me asking. I ordered one from Toronto Canada and wanted to get some sort of a gauge for when it may arrive here.
Originally Posted by tifa3
Dealer said that the internals for the European one is different from the US one which makes the US one more expensive.

What BS. Does he have a second income as a used cars salesman?
About the laggy touch interface. I think that this might get (kind of) fixed when the smart device app will get launched. That’s what I’m hoping for at least.
Originally Posted by tifa3
Originally Posted by TomLC
It’s $3600 plus tax!


Indeed, which brings it up to $3800. I saw the prices paid forum where someone in Italy bought it for around $2800 euros or $3100. Dealer said that the internals for the European one is different from the US one which makes the US one more expensive.

Considering the ES8 as an alternative - does it have the same sound engine as the CA79?


No. There are variants of the ca-line specifically for Asia, but EU/US are the same (minus PSU as echomac said). He sounds either ignorant or worse, even though people in the US typically do pay more. I paid €2853, or $3220, including taxes and a cheap bench.

The ES8 does not have the same audio engine. Ca79/99 is the latest. Previous gen is in Novus 5/10, ca58/78/98. The ES8 has the one before that.
Originally Posted by tifa3
Originally Posted by richdinoso
Originally Posted by tifa3
I was able to play the CA79 at my local dealer and compare it with the CA99, NV10, NV5, CA58, K300 Aures. In terms of the action, it felt responsive - definitely not as a good as the NV10 or NV5 but those are much more expensive. The onboard speakers sounded good - at higher volumes I did notice that there's a slight buzzing noise when hitting lower notes if I put my ear close to the speaker. I tried replicating it on NV10 and NV5 and this occurred as well so assuming that this is normal. From a distance you couldn't hear the slight buzzing sound. I was blown away by the sound when using headphones however! It sounded so clear without any distortion. I was really impressed with the sound when using headphones. I also compared it with the CA99 but didn't like the 99 that much because I felt it had too much resonance caused by the wooden soundboard (even with the reverb tweaked). It made some songs sound muddy. NV10 and NV5 definitely felt better in terms of the action and of course the K300 Aures was the best imo (best of both worlds but at a price of $12k). My dealer was offering the CA79 for $3600 which to me, seemed pretty high and he was pretty firm on no negotiations. Is this what you guys are experiencing in terms of price? Overall, impressed with the CA79.


Is this dealer in the USA? What was their price for the CA99?


Yes, dealer is in the USA. Close to $5,000. Btw Ebony Polish has a surcharge of $500 crazy


That actually us the same here. Polished ebony is expensive!
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
The ES8 does not have the same audio engine. Ca79/99 is the latest. Previous gen is in Novus 5/10, ca58/78/98. The ES8 has the one before that.

Well, it's not that easy. The ES8 actually has the same sound engine as the CA79/99 use for any of the non-piano sounds, as well as for any of the non-SK-EX concert grand piano voices, as well as for the SK-EX concert grand voice with the "Concert", "Jazz Clean" or "Warm" piano variations.
Or the other way round: The CA79/99 only use the new sound engine for the SK-EX Concert Grand with the SK-EX Rendering variation selected. All other piano and non-piano voices on the CA79/99 are generated by the same engine as the ES8 uses.
I paid £2590 or €3000 or $3380 for my CA79, and judging by other prices online, it seems pretty good.
Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
The ES8 does not have the same audio engine. Ca79/99 is the latest. Previous gen is in Novus 5/10, ca58/78/98. The ES8 has the one before that.

Well, it's not that easy. The ES8 actually has the same sound engine as the CA79/99 use for any of the non-piano sounds, as well as for any of the non-SK-EX concert grand piano voices, as well as for the SK-EX concert grand voice with the "Concert", "Jazz Clean" or "Warm" piano variations.
Or the other way round: The CA79/99 only use the new sound engine for the SK-EX Concert Grand with the SK-EX Rendering variation selected. All other piano and non-piano voices on the CA79/99 are generated by the same engine as the ES8 uses.


Sure, that is another way to put it. But doesn't that basically mean that the CA79/99 has a two-gen newer engine, but also includes the older sounds? FWIW, a number of non-piano sounds are new in the CA79/CA99. Haven't personally bothered to check them, but still. :P
It's interesting to note that there are three listings in the Prices Paid thread for CA79 purchases in Europe, but none in the US.
Originally Posted by Amy H
I paid £2590 or €3000 or $3380 for my CA79, and judging by other prices online, it seems pretty good.
There are a couple of places within a couple of hours of me (in the US) who are supposed to get a CA79 in stock before too long. I'm hoping to have a chance to make a roadtrip to try them out and see what the asking prices are.
Originally Posted by tifa3
Originally Posted by richdinoso
Originally Posted by tifa3
I was able to play the CA79 at my local dealer and compare it with the CA99, NV10, NV5, CA58, K300 Aures. In terms of the action, it felt responsive - definitely not as a good as the NV10 or NV5 but those are much more expensive. The onboard speakers sounded good - at higher volumes I did notice that there's a slight buzzing noise when hitting lower notes if I put my ear close to the speaker. I tried replicating it on NV10 and NV5 and this occurred as well so assuming that this is normal. From a distance you couldn't hear the slight buzzing sound. I was blown away by the sound when using headphones however! It sounded so clear without any distortion. I was really impressed with the sound when using headphones. I also compared it with the CA99 but didn't like the 99 that much because I felt it had too much resonance caused by the wooden soundboard (even with the reverb tweaked). It made some songs sound muddy. NV10 and NV5 definitely felt better in terms of the action and of course the K300 Aures was the best imo (best of both worlds but at a price of $12k). My dealer was offering the CA79 for $3600 which to me, seemed pretty high and he was pretty firm on no negotiations. Is this what you guys are experiencing in terms of price? Overall, impressed with the CA79.


Is this dealer in the USA? What was their price for the CA99?


Yes, dealer is in the USA. Close to $5,000. Btw Ebony Polish has a surcharge of $500 crazy


Can you tell us the dealer name and location? Would like to buy a CA99.
Hey guys,

I am now also the proud owner of a CA79. At this point a big thank you for all the posts here. For me it was a great help for my purchase decision, which I do not regret. I am especially satisfied with the speaker sound. It is very realistic for my taste. For those of you who prefer a more bassier sound, maybe the CA99 is a better choice.
I really like the action, even if it feels a bit lighter compared to the GF2. I measured a weight of ~57g, although I must say that I am not a professional piano technician.

I have found some small issues:

- The logo is slanted, it hangs down to the left. by about 0.7mm.
- The UI is not very responsive and has translation errors. (see language setting "Engligh")
- The automatic display turn off has a faulty timer that does not reset propperly on input. It always turns down after the preset time, even if you are using it.

I can live with these bugs, but I hope that Kawai can still solve the UI issues by firmware updates. (Buy the way: Where can I find updates?)
Nevertheless this should not spoil the overall positive first impression.

Best,
J.
Originally Posted by JayKoe

- The logo is slanted, it hangs down to the left. by about 0.7mm.


Was noticed in other other units as well, and mine is the same. Also to the left, by about .7mm. Really sloppy from Kawai. Not a dealbreaker, but remarkable in this day and age for sure.

Originally Posted by JayKoe

- The UI is not very responsive and has translation errors. (see language setting "Engligh")


Mine says 'English'. What is your UI version? (system->information check (at the bottom)).
Originally Posted by JayKoe

I really like the action, even if it feels a bit lighter compared to the GF2. I measured a weight of ~57g, although I must say that I am not a professional piano technician.
J.

This is interesting because 57g would be considered pretty heavy for acoustic piano so what you say actually makes me very happy because if the keyboard is on the heavy side BUT feels lighter than GF2 then it means it is very responsive and fast while maintaining weight that allows for good control.
Originally Posted by JayKoe
The logo is slanted, it hangs down to the left. by about 0.7mm.


Sounds like Kawai's quality control haven't been doing their jobs properly!! Bit of a shame considering how much they cost. Surely they could have done better than using fancy stickers.
Quote

Originally Posted by JayKoe

- The UI is not very responsive and has translation errors. (see language setting "Engligh")


Mine says 'English'. What is your UI version? (system->information check (at the bottom)).


UI 1.0.2
Touch panel System 3.3.6
Firmware 1.03
Originally Posted by JayKoe
- The UI is not very responsive and has translation errors. (see language setting "Engligh")
- The automatic display turn off has a faulty timer that does not reset propperly on input. It always turns down after the preset time, even if you are using it.

I can live with these bugs, but I hope that Kawai can still solve the UI issues by firmware updates. (Buy the way: Where can I find updates?)

Mine says Engligh as well smile. I didn't notice it before (and luckily I do not plan to change the language to Japanese that often...). I also noticed the auto-display-off bug that you mentioned. There are a lot more issues I think. Mine suddenly forgot all settings and returned itself to a factory reset.

But anyway, I don't care much. I am picking my favorite piano (EX Concert Grand) and then mainly use the 88-key user interface that works perfectly fine.

I have...
  • UI: 1.0.2
  • Touch panel system: 3.3.6
  • Firmware: 1.03

... but I'd be surprised if anyone has different versions.

Software updates should appear at https://www.kawai-global.com/support/updates or https://www.kawai-global.com/product/ca79. Since I am in Germany, I would also check out https://www.kawai.de/support/downloadcenter/ca79 or https://www.kawai.de/products/digitalpianos/caserie/ca79
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
Originally Posted by JayKoe

- The logo is slanted, it hangs down to the left. by about 0.7mm.


Was noticed in other other units as well, and mine is the same. Also to the left, by about .7mm. Really sloppy from Kawai. Not a dealbreaker, but remarkable in this day and age for sure.

Originally Posted by JayKoe

- The UI is not very responsive and has translation errors. (see language setting "Engligh")


Mine says 'English'. What is your UI version? (system->information check (at the bottom)).

Check again...! And what is your software version?
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
Originally Posted by JayKoe

- The logo is slanted, it hangs down to the left. by about 0.7mm.


Was noticed in other other units as well, and mine is the same. Also to the left, by about .7mm. Really sloppy from Kawai. Not a dealbreaker, but remarkable in this day and age for sure.

Mine seems to be fine, looks fine, or I am unable to measure any defect.
Originally Posted by Martinez

Mine says Engligh as well smile. I didn't notice it before (and luckily I do not plan to change the language to Japanese that often...). I also noticed the auto-display-off bug that you mentioned. There are a lot more issues I think. Mine suddenly forgot all settings and returned itself to a factory reset.

But anyway, I don't care much. I am picking my favorite piano (EX Concert Grand) and then mainly use the 88-key user interface that works perfectly fine.

I have...
  • UI: 1.0.2
  • Touch panel system: 3.3.6
  • Firmware: 1.03

... but I'd be surprised if anyone has different versions.


How odd. Anyway, in this version the display bug is fixed, as is the spelling issue. No issue with settings resetting either so far. Guess they're just putting the latest beta version on each model, and the first 'real' upgrade will come in April.

[Linked Image]
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
Originally Posted by Martinez

I have...
  • UI: 1.0.2
  • Touch panel system: 3.3.6
  • Firmware: 1.03

... but I'd be surprised if anyone has different versions.

How odd. Anyway, in this version the display bug is fixed, as is the spelling issue. No issue with settings resetting either so far. Guess they're just putting the latest beta version on each model, and the first 'real' upgrade will come in April.

Interesting software development / release approach... thumb Kawai's marketing / sales department didn't listen to the software folks' "it's not ready yet!"
Originally Posted by Martinez

Interesting software development / release approach... thumb Kawai's marketing / sales department didn't listen to the software folks' "it's not ready yet!"


They took their examples from Microsoft ... laugh
Originally Posted by Nordomus
I have one more question about new software, does it remember ambience type along with piano preset? It bugs me that ambience turns itself back on on it's own to default value while changing presets.


No, selecting different sounds will change the Ambience (or Reverb) type associated with that sound. This specification is shared by all Kawai DPs.

However, in the case of the CA99/CA79, it's easy to make an adjustment then store this as a User sound.

Kind regards,
James
x
Originally Posted by Maartin
James, any chance you could clarify this point on the CA79/99:

- Authentic new electric piano, organ, harpsichord, strings, and bass sounds

Looking at the list of sounds in the user manual they look more or less the same as the 78/98, so have Kawai used new samples for the above mentioned sounds?


Yes, correct.

Kind regards,
James
x
Hello JayKoe, congrats on the purchase of your CA79.

Regarding your queries:

- I will contact you (and sleutelbos) via a private message regarding the KAWAI logo position issue.
- Various UI issues will be fixed with the v1.0.4 UI update. As visible in sleutelbos' post above, some CA79/CA99 have already shipped with this version of the software pre-loaded.
- The auto display off time should also be fixed in the v1.0.4 UI update.

The v1.0.4 UI update has not been publicly released yet, but should be available later in the month.

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,
James
x
Because there was a post in this thread with some photos of a skewed logo in golden color some weeks ago, these alignment issues are probably just related to a first bunch of rosewood CA79 models? But probably we will find here someone within the next days with the same issue on a CA79 different to the rosewood style. Who knows, but even if the logo-issue would really be limed to some rosewood models, it’s not a very good reputation for the QA department due to the reported sloppiness regarding the UI. Or as Martinez said before, interesting release approach: First release it, than fix it smile But besides Kawai there are many other companies with exactly the same approach as long as there is an update-channel.

Nevertheless I’m still with the CA79 and hope to get mine soon.
The term "QA department" makes me cringe. frown
[Linked Image]

I received my CA79 this morning and opted for Satin Black. This is my logo. And, I looked in my system information and it says "Engligh".
That looks off, no, or are my eyes slanted? Anyway, how is the piano itself? laugh
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
That looks off, no, or are my eyes slanted? Anyway, how is the piano itself? laugh


It's hard to tell, but doesn't bother me!!
Well, it produces a BEAUTIFUL sounding bass! Trying to tweak the sound to get rid of some mid-range muddiness!
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by Nordomus
I have one more question about new software, does it remember ambience type along with piano preset? It bugs me that ambience turns itself back on on it's own to default value while changing presets.


No, selecting different sounds will change the Ambience (or Reverb) type associated with that sound. This specification is shared by all Kawai DPs.

However, in the case of the CA99/CA79, it's easy to make an adjustment then store this as a User sound.

Kind regards,
James
x

Thank you, it's something smile
Originally Posted by Amy H
It's hard to tell, but doesn't bother me!!
Well, it produces a BEAUTIFUL sounding bass! Trying to tweak the sound to get rid of some mid-range muddiness!

If it looks good, it is good! Welcome to the still exclusive club of CA79 / CA99 owners!
Finally short official demo with classical pieces smile
The logo in my CA79 looks fine! 😂
Hi all

sorry for late response we have coronaproblems here and i focus more on it.

Well @Kawai James, the transparent piano very noisy was Yamaha N1x.

The sound of the detune in CA99 is well hearable on my H6 recording, just tell me how to put the record here

thanx
Hello Giko Gomez,

Thank you very much for your reply, especially during the challenging situation that you are currently facing.

I will send you a private message shortly, with a temporary link that can be used to upload the recording.

Kind regards,
James
x
Originally Posted by Giko Gomez
Well @Kawai James, the transparent piano very noisy was Yamaha N1x.

In your previous post you said it was an upright. And since I haven’t heard of N1X pianos with transparent front, it’s most probably a NU1X.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Giko Gomez
Well @Kawai James, the transparent piano very noisy was Yamaha N1x.

In your previous post you said it was an upright. And since I haven’t heard of N1X pianos with transparent front, it’s most probably a NU1X.

Yes sorry i meant a Digital Upright like
I have recorded videos of key noise in some Silent acustic and many DP.

Im upping on tube
Hadn't seen this picture of the ca99 in polished black. Looks beautiful, can't wait to get it! I'm like crazy looking for ca79/99 info and videos every day laugh


[Linked Image]
Originally Posted by cebeema
I'm like crazy looking for ca79/99 info and videos every day laugh


Ha, was the same. :P Two new vids posted today over here http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2952850/3/kawai-ca79-ca99-owners-club.html one professional by Kawai, one very much amateur. wink
One of the things I like about the CA-99 is the lower braces on the legs.

The NV-5 doesn't have these, and it feels like the legs may be a bit fragile.
[Linked Image]
Yes, they look fragile. But they're sturdy enough so long as you don't try to slide the piano across a carpet. You must either lift ... or use gliders.
I'm really glad my old Kawai upright had casters. And no legs.
Originally Posted by Gombessa
One of the things I like about the CA-99 is the lower braces on the legs.
The NV-5 doesn't have these, and it feels like the legs may be a bit fragile.

I've got some questions about the Kawai CA-99.
1) How many years can a Kawai CA piano last? I expect at least 7 years.
2) Can humid places affect the quality of the wooden parts of the piano such as the key and the soundboard? I live in a very humid country (69% most of the times)
3) What is the percentage of volume that I need to play in order to make the soundboard work? 95% of the time I play without headphones at low volume (<40%) in my Casio PX-780.

Thanks in advance for the reply. I'm really planning on buying the CA-99, which I have never tested nor any other CA piano. Well, I had just played the CS7 and fell in love with it, but this piano is outdated! So this community is really awesome by giving helpful information!
I tried the CA99 and a part the detuning problem (can be that some customer touch too much where dont have to touch) i felt a great action.
i can play the fast first part of "the legend of 900: playing love" while i can not in real acoustic kawai,

For ironic, kawai CA99 action feels like Yamaha CX series.
Originally Posted by Fisonnra

3) What is the percentage of volume that I need to play in order to make the soundboard work? 95% of the time I play without headphones at low volume (<40%) in my Casio PX-780.

Soundboard works at any volume, it's a speaker in a manner os speaking. You will hear it at any volume, although obviously it's best to play at "acoustic" volume level for both technique and feeling, on CA98 it seems to be around 60%.
Bonners has a live review on YouTube: "Kawai CA79 vs CA99 Digital Piano Features Explained - Lots Of Playing!!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzSNeJMUhCE
Very good review as usual. I wish it had few more details on the action.
Interested in hear the Upright Piano samples !
Only four reference: IMHO one of the best recordings of the real thing. Please listen to all the side tones and resonance :-):

https://youtu.be/IKmaCDmgFVs

Galuwen
CA99 Polished finish looks stunning! So elegant
https://youtu.be/Shv8e84CRVs
I hope the CA100 will be around 120cm height.

It probably won't, but I think that would just look great.
One of the comments to the recent review from Bonners was from someone who weighted the mid C in their shop at 55 grams.
grd-dan I think you are correct as now you have mentioned it - i think I saw it on a video a week or so ago.
Originally Posted by grd-dan
One of the comments to the recent review from Bonners was from someone who weighted the mid C in their shop at 55 grams.



I was in the store when the chap brought his weight in. Interesting to see the difference between the Kawai and the Yamaha CLP685 which didn't move when he placed the weight on the keys.. Some people may prefer it in fairness but definitely has to be more labour intensive unless you're from an acoustic background and used to this action.
@ StevieG1975. You've got your CA99 already?
Originally Posted by grd-dan
@ StevieG1975. You've got your CA99 already?



Not yet, but since writing my last message I've just had a call from Bonners who are delivering tomorrow!! Cant wait and will post some pics on here as i dont believe there's many pics of the CA99 in polished ebony out there.
That guy looks like he's about to make me an offer I can't refuse ...
Originally Posted by StevieG1975
Originally Posted by grd-dan
@ StevieG1975. You've got your CA99 already?



Not yet, but since writing my last message I've just had a call from Bonners who are delivering tomorrow!! Cant wait and will post some pics on here as i dont believe there's many pics of the CA99 in polished ebony out there.




It has arrived and it’s stunning! (Might go into voluntary isolation now 😊)

Just trying to work out how to add pics on here from my iPhone 😊
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image]
Really good looking! Congrats!
Congrats! That really does look just like a beautiful acoustic.
Fabulous. Enjoy it!
i dont like the silver L shaped things on the cover, couldnt they use black ones instead? plus too many visible screws, is this deliberate design? Considering that the furniture its the same as upright models i couldnt say "its so its look like an acoustic"
Originally Posted by GNkyrios
i dont like the silver L shaped things on the cover, couldnt they use black ones instead? plus too many visible screws, is this deliberate design? Considering that the furniture its the same as upright models i couldnt say "its so its look like an acoustic"


To be fair i should of folded the lid/cover which would of hidden those 4 hinges you can see.
Originally Posted by GNkyrios
i dont like the silver L shaped things on the cover, couldnt they use black ones instead? plus too many visible screws, is this deliberate design? Considering that the furniture its the same as upright models i couldnt say "its so its look like an acoustic"

Those "things" are hinges. You only see them if you do not fold down that lid after opening the fallboard. So normally, they would be quite invisible, as you can see in the pictures here: https://www.kawai-global.com/product/ca99/
Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by GNkyrios
i dont like the silver L shaped things on the cover, couldnt they use black ones instead? plus too many visible screws, is this deliberate design? Considering that the furniture its the same as upright models i couldnt say "its so its look like an acoustic"

Those "things" are hinges. You only see them if you do not fold down that lid after opening the fallboard. So normally, they would be quite invisible, as you can see in the pictures here: https://www.kawai-global.com/product/ca99/


So they can be hidden, so its alright then. (should had looked more into it, plus use google translate when i forget certain words)
Stevie could you check the logo is not (slightly) slanted? There were earlier reports, and I recently bought a K300 on which the logo also seems a bit slanted (although not by as much as I have seen on some pictures posted here).
I still prefer the slide-it-in, slide-it-out key cover. It give a much neater appearance. And there are no hinges anywhere.
The CA99 is now an Upright in disguise, if not for the touchscreen it could even fool people (since it even has a soundboard)
Gorgeous! Beautiful! Enjoy!!

Osho
Originally Posted by pianogabe
Stevie could you check the logo is not (slightly) slanted? There were earlier reports, and I recently bought a K300 on which the logo also seems a bit slanted (although not by as much as I have seen on some pictures posted here).


Hi, just looked that this as i recall hearing about this too. Fortunately i can confirm the Kawai logo is straight on my unit. I have tried to add some more pics to this forum but its proving impossible.
Originally Posted by StevieG1975
It has arrived and it’s stunning! (Might go into voluntary isolation now 😊)


Congrats StevieG!

The CA99EP looks terrific. I've obviously seen this piano before, for product testing and photography etc., but it's always nice to see shots of the piano in customers' homes.

By the way, may I ask which software version(s) your instrument is running, please? (top right menu --> System --> Information)

Cheers,
James
x
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I still prefer the slide-it-in, slide-it-out key cover.


Well, I guess that also rules out the Novus and Avantgrand models then...

Cheers,
James
x
I doesn't rule them out, KJ. It's just that I prefer the slider. But I also want a (much) better action.
So unless you're developing a slider-covered Novus NV11 ... I'll just have to settle for the hinged variety.
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I doesn't rule them out, KJ. It's just that I prefer the slider. But I also want a (much) better action.
So unless you're developing a slider-covered Novus NV11 ... I'll just have to settle for the hinged variety.

Hinged cover on Novus NV10 was really nice when I accidentally slipped a pencil in the action. If you have pencil on the music rest and it falls on the fallboard when it is closed and then you lift the fallboard the pencil slides into the action. Luckily, the hinged cover is very easy to remove (just lift it up when it is fully open) - so I could get the pencil easily from inside the action.

Osho
The first CA79 & 99 arrived in Switzerland last week. I went to the shop on Saturday to test both and hopefully purchase one. After a couple of hours I'd given all the models in the shop a good test and came away with... an N1X. The CA99 was definitely improvement in sound and touch over the CA98 (which I didn't like), but the N1X felt much more like an instrument of expression, understandably so at twice the price.
Hey all!
I am back in Germany for those who remember I had to sell my brand new CA 98.
MAN what a bad timing to come back, can't even start my job as of April 1st frown

Anyways last week when things were not as severe I still had the chance to go to Thomann Music store and played
NV5
NU1X
CA 99
CA 79

I have to say from all those, I liked the "sound" of the CA 99 the least. It still sounded a little harsh and "boxy" (similar to the CA 98). The bass notes sounded really good but starting C5 it was weird somehow. I really liked the CA 79, the bass was so strong and rich, I believe due to it's subwoofers but I felt it's distorting at. higher volumes.

I really liked the NV5 and I also somehow really really liked the NU1X which I played for the first time.
I believe once my job finally goes through , apartment got through and Covid 19 allows to have a regular life again I would choose either the CA 79 (best price to benefit I believe) or the NU1X as I would also like to pick a polished ebony and then the NU1X is "only" 500 Euros more.

However I really like that Kawai sound... so that was my update so far!

Hope you all are safe and healthy!
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by StevieG1975
It has arrived and it’s stunning! (Might go into voluntary isolation now 😊)


Congrats StevieG!

The CA99EP looks terrific. I've obviously seen this piano before, for product testing and photography etc., but it's always nice to see shots of the piano in customers' homes.

By the way, may I ask which software version(s) your instrument is running, please? (top right menu --> System --> Information)

Cheers,
James
x



Hi James, thanks for your note. Truly loving this Piano.

It states the following:

UI = Version 1.0.3
Touch Panel System = Version 3.3.8
Firmware Version = V1.04


Thanks
Originally Posted by StevieG1975
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by StevieG1975
It has arrived and it’s stunning! (Might go into voluntary isolation now 😊)


Congrats StevieG!

The CA99EP looks terrific. I've obviously seen this piano before, for product testing and photography etc., but it's always nice to see shots of the piano in customers' homes.

By the way, may I ask which software version(s) your instrument is running, please? (top right menu --> System --> Information)

Cheers,
James
x



Hi James, thanks for your note. Truly loving this Piano.

It states the following:

UI = Version 1.0.3
Touch Panel System = Version 3.3.8
Firmware Version = V1.04


Thanks



Assume im all up to date James?

Couldnt see the CA99 firmware listed on the Kawai site so assume all good?

Thanks
Hello StevieG,

Originally Posted by StevieG1975
It states the following:

UI = Version 1.0.3
Touch Panel System = Version 3.3.8
Firmware Version = V1.04

Thanks for the info!

Originally Posted by StevieG1975
Assume im all up to date James?

Couldnt see the CA99 firmware listed on the Kawai site so assume all good?

Thanks


I believe some CA99/CA79 owners' pianos may be running a slightly newer version of the software.
However, we plan to release the first update before the end of the month, so once that happens everyone will be on the same level.

Thanks again!

Kind regards,
James
x
Yes but the approved soft fall board is better to be cleaned from snoozing on it with sanitiser.

I love it.

Alex
The fairies have been in my house and left this behind - can you identify this for me please?

[Linked Image]


he he ....

Big thank you to Olie from Bonners - Milton Keanes uk who personally delivered and installed it late last night!

Cheers to Bonners
Amazing that things get delivered in times of COVID-19....

Enjoy your new piano especially during lockdown there is lots of time to play!
I don't know what that is, but it does look fairy nice! smile
So true about the virus - I was beginning to panic a bit and it is changing so fast here in the UK. I spoke to a Piano carrier also the other day who said that people are either jumping and buying anything going to their kids or cancelling orders made with dealers and so many of them are shutting up shop.

LOL to U3piano!

Only played for a short time and sounds so different to the shop environment and also to my old Yamaha in same position in room. Still impressed with the action. But may have to play around with output. Will keep you all posted smile
Originally Posted by U3piano
I don't know what that is, but it does look fairy nice! smile


Surely, you meant to say fairly........oh wait, I get it! It’s a play on Killomiter’s ‘fairies’ remark. The implied ‘fairly’ is therefore referencing a fairy affair of sorts; where the fairy, a mythical being, does not indicate a misnomer but rather a double entendre. Is this observation correct, I ask? crazy
Originally Posted by Pete14
Originally Posted by U3piano
I don't know what that is, but it does look fairy nice! smile


Surely, you meant to say fairly........oh wait, I get it! It’s a play on Killomiter’s ‘fairies’ remark. The implied ‘fairly’ is therefore referencing a fairy affair of sorts; where the fairy, a mythical being, does not indicate a misnomer but rather a double entendre. Is this observation correct, I ask? crazy


My My My Pete might be actually serious. Not LOL
I found it quite easy to follow Pete's remarks - well at least for the first 2 hours. lol smile
Originally Posted by grd-dan
Another short presentation video for CA79.
Somebody from Kawai Europe explains that the new GF III 'changed the weighting of the keys'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1N_me94P-9s

I verified this a couple of weeks ago (sorry I didn't post this earlier - I've been travelling around the world; luckily I am now back home safe).

Now the key weighting is better than any other digital piano I have ever tested: 53 grams in the bass down to 48 grams in the treble.

My only concern was the consistency across the keys: it wasn't smooth - it fluctuated up and down unevenly moving from treble to bass. Hopefully this was just the fact that the instrument (CA79) was brand-new and hadn't been worn in. I'll try another instrument to double-check.

I also played the CA99, however there was a strange vibration sound coming from something inside (rattling/buzzing sound). Initially I thought it was the music rest or the lid, but the salesman and I eliminated those possibilities.

I just sold my C.Bechstein upright, so I'm now without any piano for the first time in 41 years.... so the need to buy ASAP is high. The problem is I tried the CA79 and CA99 in Australia, but here in Singapore the one sole Kawai dealer (Robert Piano) has yet to receive any stock and they also don't know a rough date. I would buy a CA79 sight unseen today if the price is reasonable, however if they don't come in soon I will be forced into buying a Roland LX706 frown (My wife already banned me from buying a Casio on account of the brand lol)
Originally Posted by Burkie
I would buy a CA79 sight unseen today if the price is reasonable, however if they don't come in soon I will be forced into buying a Roland LX706 frown

So I called the Kawai dealer again today - still no ETA on the CA79. However I checked the price on the CA78 - they quoted: SGD $5,100. This is 50% (SGD $1,700) higher than the CA79 is currently selling for in Australia. No way am I paying 50% extra just because I am in Singapore. For comparison, Roland and Casio pianos are almost identical price between Australia and Singapore. Yamaha also only charges about 15% extra - I'm happy to pay 15% extra for the CA79.

Perhaps there is Malaysian or Indonesian dealer I could ship it to Singapore from? (We had originally planned to make the purchase in Australia, but an inconvenient virus means family members are now locked in Singapore!)
Originally Posted by Burkie

I also played the CA99, however there was a strange vibration sound coming from something inside (rattling/buzzing sound). Initially I thought it was the music rest or the lid, but the salesman and I eliminated those possibilities.

I had this problem with CA98. After 3(!) technician visits he finally found that it was because of loose screws inside the piano at the back so the whole back vibrated(rattled) sometimes. With pianos like CA98 or any other with soundboard they have to be assembled PERFECTLY, even smallest imperfection WILL be heard because of the extensive instrument vibration.
Originally Posted by Nordomus

I had this problem with CA98. After 3(!) technician visits he finally found that it was because of loose screws inside the piano at the back so the whole back vibrated(rattled) sometimes. With pianos like CA98 or any other with soundboard they have to be assembled PERFECTLY, even smallest imperfection WILL be heard because of the extensive instrument vibration.


Glad you got it figured out, I imagine chassis vibrations can be very hard to diagnose. Maybe it affects soundboard DPs more, but the same cause definitely affects plain old speaker DPs too. I recall a couple of "buzzing" reports on the NV-10 were traced back to a loose piece like a top board as well.
Hi Folks,

I found a new unboxing and demo video:




Galuwen
Thanks a lot! I appreciate microphone recorded videos like this so much more than line out takes...Here I can hear what sound is really to be expected when you would play the thing at home and this is nice. In contrast to videos that use line out sound which imitates a concert grand in a concert hall, something that without headphones to me always sounds embellished, not to say like a fake.
Originally Posted by Kammerklang
Thanks a lot! I appreciate microphone recorded videos like this so much more than line out takes...Here I can hear what sound is really to be expected when you would play the thing at home and this is nice. In contrast to videos that use line out sound which imitates a concert grand in a concert hall, something that without headphones to me always sounds embellished, not to say like a fake.

Kein Problem. Bitte sehr:

Dankeschön - klingt doch wunderbar!
Another one:



Enjoy !!

Galuwen


Really love the sound :-)

Galuwen
For anyone who has played on both the MP11SE (or at least a piano with GF1) and the CA79 -

How do the key action, sound, and features compare? Is the touch of the GF3 heavier, lighter, or about the same compared to the GF1?

Are the MIDI controller features on the CA79 suitable for playing VSTs without latency and recording/composing music?
Hello ancientalchemy,

I'm reluctant to comment on subjective topics such as perceived action touch weight, however to answer your second query:

Originally Posted by ancientalchemy
Are the MIDI controller features on the CA79 suitable for playing VSTs without latency and recording/composing music?

The CA79's MIDI features are relative simple, but should be sufficient for playing VSTs. The MIDI Settings manual PDF can be downloaded here. If you require additional functions, a MIDI controller or stage piano with extensive MIDI capabilities such as the MP11SE would perhaps be more suitable.

Latency typically occurs on the computer side, and is not related to the digital piano/controller.

Kind regards,
James
x
Originally Posted by ancientalchemy
Are the MIDI controller features on the CA79 suitable for playing VSTs without latency and recording/composing music?
It is absolutely suitable for playing. With my 3 year old Macbook Pro I don't perceive any latency when using a USB-MIDI connection. When using MIDI over Bluetooth I noticed a very, very small delay, which is probably related to the bluetooth technology.
Originally Posted by BastiaanB
It is absolutely suitable for playing. With my 3 year old Macbook Pro I don't perceive any latency when using a USB-MIDI connection. When using MIDI over Bluetooth I noticed a very, very small delay, which is probably related to the bluetooth technology.

Yes, using Bluetooth MIDI introduces additional latency compared to wired MIDI. For some people this is not a problem, for others, the additional can be bothersome.

Kind regards,
James
x
Originally Posted by BastiaanB
Originally Posted by ancientalchemy
Are the MIDI controller features on the CA79 suitable for playing VSTs without latency and recording/composing music?
It is absolutely suitable for playing. With my 3 year old Macbook Pro I don't perceive any latency when using a USB-MIDI connection. When using MIDI over Bluetooth I noticed a very, very small delay, which is probably related to the bluetooth technology.
Of course there should be no MIDI latency. Even with a 100 years old Macbook calculator.
The question is - is the latency acceptably low when the generated on your Macbook sound is passed over back to be played through your CA79/CA99?

Because, I assume it works like this:
1. You press a key
2. A midi message is sent from CA to Macbook
3. Macbook generates the sound and sends it back to CA.
4. You listen to the sound through the CA own speakers or through headphones connected to CA.
And the latency should be acceptably low.
There might be some delay, but too small to notice or at least too small to bother you.
There might be some options regarding Macbook drivers and audio interfaces, but if audio is passed back through usb, then probably no additional audio interface is needed.
Originally Posted by Parkher
Of course there should be no MIDI latency. Even with a 100 years old Macbook calculator.
The question is - is the latency acceptably low when the generated on your Macbook sound is passed over back to be played through your CA79/CA99?

Because, I assume it works like this:
1. You press a key
2. A midi message is sent from CA to Macbook
3. Macbook generates the sound and sends it back to CA.
4. You listen to the sound through the CA own speakers or through headphones connected to CA.
And the latency should be acceptably low.
There might be some delay, but too small to notice or at least too small to bother you.
There might be some options regarding Macbook drivers and audio interfaces, but if audio is passed back through usb, then probably no additional audio interface is needed.
I usually refrain from using sarcasm when I don't fully grasp the subject that's being discussed.

I spoke about the perception of total latency of the whole set-up (CA79, MIDI and computer + VST), not about MIDI-latency. As Kawai James already said the computer system + VST is usually the major contributor to latency. In the past there have been MIDI-controllers on the market that had added quite a lot of latency, because they were quite slow in converting the key action into MIDI-messages. Also the MIDI-technology in general has bottlenecks, especially when you use DIN-MIDI which has limited bandwidth to nowadays' standards. It takes 1 millisecond to send a single key-off or key-on action MIDI-message. If you hit 10 keys at exactly the same time, the 1st key-on message will arrive 9 ms before the 10th message! In case any instrument is played with 4 hands (20 keys), this will be 19ms, and this can be noticeable! USB-MIDI has 15.000 times more bandwidth, but because of the way USB technology in general works there will always be a few ms of latency anyway.

You wrote that generated sound (with a VST) is sent back to the DP (I guess by using line-out line-in)? That's a quite unusual setup! Moreover you CANNOT pass Audio back to the DP over the USB connection.
Sorry about my sarcasm. In another thread here, there was an off-topic discussion about sarcasm being a second nature for some nations and one american not tolerating it smile

1. Really, you can notice 19 ms?
I am using a midi filter I wrote myself.
To correct velocities of one faulty key.
C2, actually.
Midi is sent from piano to PC and then back to piano.
So I look what were the velocities of the notes played before that note on other keys from the same range. Right hand may be playing louder. It should not affect C2.
But I also assume a possibility of C2 participating in an octave, in a 10th or perhaps in a 7th.
So I deliberately delay it and wait for some short interval for the next note to potentially use its velocity.
I checked in my filter. Currently I have 20 ms there as the maximum waiting time.
I never noticed any delay, but it is not a fact that 20 ms ever occurred.
Even with sloppy playing the other note in a pair is usually in the range of 1-12 ms.

2. Yes, the whole idea is to send the generated sound back to the piano.
It is especially important in the case of CA99 - because the spruce sound board can be used. With what success - who knows...
Or the fancy headphone amp inside the piano with its changeable parameters.
But more importantly - if I am not mistaken, it is even possible to combine the sounds from your VST with the sounds from piano itself. For splits and perhaps even for layers.
I sort of remember such demonstrations on youtube.
I think that it all is together possible through bluetooth. No wires involved.
Not sure about the latency, though. CA79/CA99 supports aptX, if I am not mistaken.
But probably not aptX HD?
Anyway I saw claims (but did I, really?) that you can use VST with midi/audio via bluetooth just fine, the latency is acceptable. But not sure. I think aptX has latency of up to 60 ms.
If not through bluetooth, yes, probably you than need to use line in.
I think splitting (and layering?) is supported through line in as well.
Again, I sort of remember seeing it in a video or reading about it.
My CA99 EP is probably still weeks away. No first-hand knowledge frown
I think what I wrote about "splitting and layering support through line in" requires some clarification.
CA79/CA99 allow to play along with sound coming from line in. So layering also is as if automatically supported, nothing additionally to support.
The question is only about splitting.
The splitting may have to be supported in the outside sound source.
Or may not, depending if CA can send out midi notes only from one side of the split.
The best would be to have options for local off for one side of the keyboard and sort of "remote off" for the other side.
Even if you can't do that - you still have some options:
1. to have local off and use the outside sound on both sides of the split. The split is done outside.
2. to have layered sound on both sides of the split.
If you don't want to add the same sound to both sides, then the split has to be supported also at the outside sound source. The outside source can add either different sounds or the sound only to one side of the keyboard.
Besides, that still allows to change the balance of the sides in CA in such a way that local sound on one side can probably be suppressed, or at least greatly reduced.
So there are plenty of options.
Originally Posted by Nordomus
Originally Posted by Burkie
I also played the CA99, however there was a strange vibration sound coming from something inside (rattling/buzzing sound). Initially I thought it was the music rest or the lid, but the salesman and I eliminated those possibilities.
I had this problem with CA98. After 3(!) technician visits he finally found that it was because of loose screws inside the piano at the back so the whole back vibrated(rattled) sometimes. With pianos like CA98 or any other with soundboard they have to be assembled PERFECTLY, even smallest imperfection WILL be heard because of the extensive instrument vibration.

I quickly jumped back on this forum to see if anyone else has the same issue i've encountered with my CA99. I too now have this horrid rattling vibration noise on the lower notes coming from the soundboard. Really frustrating and just cant bare to hear it so have stopped playing it. I've been onto my dealer who will speak to Kawai but due to lock down cant have anyone from Kawai to pop out. Very frustrating especially given the face im not playing at full volume and it wasnt like it when first received. Hoping its a one stop quick fix and not multiple engineering visits as mentioned above.
This is something Stu from Merriam music covered on YouTube with his demo of the NV10. I highly recommend you check it out.
Originally Posted by StevieG1975
Originally Posted by Nordomus
Originally Posted by Burkie
I also played the CA99, however there was a strange vibration sound coming from something inside (rattling/buzzing sound). Initially I thought it was the music rest or the lid, but the salesman and I eliminated those possibilities.
I had this problem with CA98. After 3(!) technician visits he finally found that it was because of loose screws inside the piano at the back so the whole back vibrated(rattled) sometimes. With pianos like CA98 or any other with soundboard they have to be assembled PERFECTLY, even smallest imperfection WILL be heard because of the extensive instrument vibration.

I quickly jumped back on this forum to see if anyone else has the same issue i've encountered with my CA99. I too now have this horrid rattling vibration noise on the lower notes coming from the soundboard. Really frustrating and just cant bare to hear it so have stopped playing it. I've been onto my dealer who will speak to Kawai but due to lock down cant have anyone from Kawai to pop out. Very frustrating especially given the face im not playing at full volume and it wasnt like it when first received. Hoping its a one stop quick fix and not multiple engineering visits as mentioned above.


Unfortunately, I have to join people with the same problem. I can hear a "rzrzrrzrz" sound from both treble and bass, with every sound and different volumes. Moreover, a group of 4 notes in central octave is significantly louder (even on headphones) making the experience with the piano quite bad. Kawai UK does not look interested in solving the issues and I will likely give back the piano.
Really disappointed.
Hello markillo, welcome to the forum.

We've already exchanged quite a few messages over the past couple of months, so I'm obviously familiar with the symptoms that you describe with your piano.

Originally Posted by markillo
Kawai UK does not look interested in solving the issues...

May I ask you to elaborate on this claim, please - ideally via a PM?

I have the utmost respect for my colleagues in the UK, so I'm a little surprised that a customer would choose to describe their interaction with Kawai UK staff in this way.

Kind regards,
James
x
Does it seem like the transducer might be loose and causing mechanical rattling with the soundboard? Or does it sound more like rattling caused by electronic buzz/distortion?

Maybe it's the former:
Originally Posted by StevieG1975
... it wasnt like it when first received.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Does it seem like the transducer might be loose and causing mechanical rattling with the soundboard? Or does it sound more like rattling caused by electronic buzz/distortion?

Maybe it's the former:
Originally Posted by StevieG1975
... it wasnt like it when first received.
In my piano, the noise was there since I received it. I think (it is just a personal opinion) it comes from the electronics or the top speakers, rather than the soundboard.
Hi Folks,

just wanted to know the progress off the promissed "touch screen backlight switch off update".

As I remember when the CA99 was instroduced a possibilty to switch off the backlight of the touch screen was promissed as an softwate uodate.

Am I wrong?

Thx

Galuwen
Do it in hardware! A piece of black felt or vinyl plus a piece of tape as a hinge.
The cloth covers the display. You lift it to reveal the display.

That's not as nice as a "proper" fix from Kawai. But we'll likely be pushing up daisies before that happens! smile

Originally Posted by Galuwen
Just wanted to know the progress of the promised "touch screen backlight switch off update".
As I remember when the CA99 was introduced a possibility to switch off the backlight of the touch screen was promised as an software update.
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Do it in hardware! A piece of black felt or vinyl plus a piece of tape as a hinge.
The cloth covers the display. You lift it to reveal the display.

That's not as nice as a "proper" fix from Kawai. But we'll likely be pushing up daisies before that happens! smile

Originally Posted by Galuwen
Just wanted to know the progress of the promised "touch screen backlight switch off update".
As I remember when the CA99 was introduced a possibility to switch off the backlight of the touch screen was promised as an software update.

Is that really acceptable for a piano in this price range? I had to return my CA99 because of various other faults, but having to deal with something that is an incredibly easy software patch is absurd (this has been an issue since the CA78/98, so for years...). The amount of people excusing away what seem to be common flaws with this piano is odd (not saying you are necessarily).
Originally Posted by Razorbill
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Do it in hardware! A piece of black felt or vinyl plus a piece of tape as a hinge.
The cloth covers the display. You lift it to reveal the display.

That's not as nice as a "proper" fix from Kawai. But we'll likely be pushing up daisies before that happens! smile

Originally Posted by Galuwen
Just wanted to know the progress of the promised "touch screen backlight switch off update".
As I remember when the CA99 was introduced a possibility to switch off the backlight of the touch screen was promised as an software update.

Is that really acceptable for a piano in this price range? I had to return my CA99 because of various other faults, but having to deal with something that is an incredibly easy software patch is absurd (this has been an issue since the CA78/98, so for years...). The amount of people excusing away what seem to be common flaws with this piano is odd (not saying you are necessarily).


No just wanted the (up)date in the format YYYY/DD/MM.

Thx

Galuwen
Based on the fact that this problem was mentioned with the previous model and passed on to the dev team almost two years ago...never
http://forum.pianoworld.com//ubbthr...and-ca78-digital-pianos.html#Post2756619

Originally Posted by Galuwen
Originally Posted by Razorbill
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Do it in hardware! A piece of black felt or vinyl plus a piece of tape as a hinge.
The cloth covers the display. You lift it to reveal the display.

That's not as nice as a "proper" fix from Kawai. But we'll likely be pushing up daisies before that happens! smile

Originally Posted by Galuwen
Just wanted to know the progress of the promised "touch screen backlight switch off update".
As I remember when the CA99 was introduced a possibility to switch off the backlight of the touch screen was promised as an software update.

Is that really acceptable for a piano in this price range? I had to return my CA99 because of various other faults, but having to deal with something that is an incredibly easy software patch is absurd (this has been an issue since the CA78/98, so for years...). The amount of people excusing away what seem to be common flaws with this piano is odd (not saying you are necessarily).


No just wanted the (up)date in the format YYYY/DD/MM.

Thx

Galuwen
Hello Galuwen,

Originally Posted by Galuwen
just wanted to know the progress off the promissed "touch screen backlight switch off update".

I believe I'm perhaps best placed to answer this question.

This function is planned for a future software update. I'm afraid I cannot provide a concrete release data, however I have seen this feature working in test versions, so I'm hopeful that it will be available for public release before too long.

Unfortunately, implementing this feature in the the CA98/CA78 touchscreen is more challenging, as it requires modifying the touchscreen OS.

Kind regards,
James
x
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Unfortunately, implementing this feature in the the CA98/CA78 touchscreen is more challenging, as it requires modifying the touchscreen OS.

Whoa. I didn't even know this was possible on the CA98/CA78.

Would it be possible to support this on the NV10 as well? It would be a wonderful feature, especially for video recordings.
Originally Posted by navindra
Whoa. I didn't even know this was possible on the CA98/CA78.

Sorry to give you the wrong impression. Currently, turning off the CA98/CA78 touchscreen backlight is *not* possible.

Originally Posted by navindra
Would it be possible to support this on the NV10 as well?

If it were possible on the CA98/CA78, it would also be possible on the NV10 and other instruments that use the same touchpanel system. However, I'm afraid I don't believe this is possible.

Kind regards,
James
x
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by navindra
Whoa. I didn't even know this was possible on the CA98/CA78.

Sorry to give you the wrong impression. Currently, turning off the CA98/CA78 touchscreen backlight is *not* possible.

Originally Posted by navindra
Would it be possible to support this on the NV10 as well?

If it were possible on the CA98/CA78, it would also be possible on the NV10 and other instruments that use the same touchpanel system. However, I'm afraid I don't believe this is possible.
I understand that an Android OS update would be required to support this -- however, it's news to me that no hardware update is required.

With the COVID-19 situation, it would make sense for Kawai to prolong current investment in NV10/NV5/AURES, so bringing this feature to these platforms would be wonderful.
Hi Kawai James

not sure I liked the comment

'Unfortunately, implementing this feature in the the CA98/CA78 touchscreen is more challenging, as it requires modifying the touchscreen OS'

Cant even say this is even a dig but is more a frustration of new owners that find the instrument they bought has infact had a history of issues

This seems to be an issue in all markets from sports gadgets to pianos to Computers, entertainment TV, Etc...

The item is made and placed in the market at full retail price
The end user is the R&D/ fault finding feedback and companies respond for a while but then seem to get bored of trying to help if cost/development is required to put right the issues.
Meanwhile, instead of obsoleting the product with heavy discounts the item carries on selling at full price with no real further support until a new model is announced.
this funds the rectification of the issues, but sadly not for the current owners.
The new model miraculously has all the ignored bug features and fixes that the previous model fell short by.
This is great for new owners but the company should bear in mind the owner of the previous model, if bought in the last year of production at full price, assumes they have the latest model and expect service as such.

I know this has become the norm and won't change so it is what it is but to your statement above....

YES the OS system in a CA78/98 should be changed to allow external control from IOS/Android and should already have a mod for proper screen shutdown given the cost of the instrument. People paid good money for that instrument up to only 6 or 7 months ago.

These shortfalls and issues were pointed out long, long before that.

End of rant
That may be a rant ... but I sympathize with your frustration.
I feel the same way about products that don't meet quality expectations ... and this will guide my future piano purchase.
Unfortunately this is the "new normal" for products in general (not only DPs). To some extent, it is unavoidable, given the growing complexity of products. It is humanly impossible to cover all possible use case scenarios in such products. Granted, some cases are too obvious to disregard the incompetence from developers or more probably from management that rushed the product into the streets.

When dissatisfaction is the only outcome, we are good. The problem is that that time to market rush has lead to loss of lives, as the recent case with Boeing.
Unavoidable? No. It's entirely avoidable.

Quality is achievable ... but if consumers ignore it, manufacturers will, too.
If we don't care, they don't care.
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Unavoidable? No. It's entirely avoidable.

Quality is achievable ... but if consumers ignore it, manufacturers will, too.
If we don't care, they don't care.
Couldn't agree more. And sadly one of the many reasons why I didn't seriously consider the CA79.
Thanks for these replies

I thought I was on my own.

Can I just say that I have had my CA78 just over 1 year and am generally happy with it and Kawai Customer service has been second to none in terms of response to any warranty issues to date.

The main concern is all the shop trials and research I did and videos on youtube pointed me to the CA78.

I thought I had bought a top of the range piano for my level of playing and it is just that on the face of it.

I then joined forums for advice on things like midi VST and just general advice to enhance what I had already purchased.

I find keyboard weaknesses already known about at time of build, OS limitations, recording and noise issues etc.

Connection to android/IOS to connesct to Kawai OS remotely should have been a priority I think, not wait for CA79/99 (is it actually released now?)

None of the above particularly affect me now but I would have thought would still be supported and fixed by the manufacturer for those who requested this a couple of years ago.
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Unavoidable? No. It's entirely avoidable.

Quality is achievable ... but if consumers ignore it, manufacturers will, too.
If we don't care, they don't care.

I do not disagree with the latter. But I do with the "entirely" part.

Yes, quality is achievable and that includes a product being delivered on time at a price the customer considers fair. ABSOLUTE quality (i.e. 0% faults) by your standard would lead to a never released product, or a VERY expensive one. Of course, there are honest mistakes that lead to a flawed/failing product and the dishonest ones ("it's good enough, let's launch it" of "better ask for forgiveness than permission" though the former often do not happens). Problem is knowing where the boundary between both is drawn.

Mac, I am very sure that we agree overall even though we may not agree in the details. smile
We also have to draw a line between a lack of quality (out of tune note...) and a lack of feature. My piano has only 3 velocity layers which are not blended... where should I put such a characteristic ? (It were sold like this... since 3 is better than a unique one) Here, the display can’t be shut off. I don’t know concurrent digital pianos which can however. It may be however more luminous than white on blue Yamaha LCD (or a 3 digits LCD of the N1X)
Quality isn't expensive.
Quality doesn't cost money.
Quality saves money.

Fewer warranty claims.
Better customer satisfaction.
Fewer lost sales. (As in ... I'll probably buy the Yamaha N1X next year instead of the Kawai NV10.)

The Japanese have done it before. And we learned from it.

But things today are sliding the wrong way.
Originally Posted by EVC2017
ABSOLUTE quality (i.e. 0% faults) by your standard would lead to a never released product, or a VERY expensive one.
Originally Posted by Bobetski
Can I just say that I have had my CA78 just over 1 year and am generally happy with it and Kawai Customer service has been second to none in terms of response to any warranty issues to date.

May I ask you who you deal with at Kawai for warranty service? They have been MIA for me since March. My CA97 has been sitting broken since their technician came out and broke a hammer during the "repair".
Digital piano manufacturers are like car manufacturers, they are not interested in selling you a piano for a lifetime. After all it's not a $100k grand. It's not $50k either. Not even $10k! So, they need to deliberately make it only durable enough to last 5 years after which you will want to upgrade to the next DP anyway. But then, when you are deliberately lowering the quality (I know for a fact car manufacturers do that), you risk shipping pianos that are faulty since day one... It's a fire dance.

P.S. Offtopic. A car manufacturer, forgot the brand (maybe it was VW?) had a very successful model, only for the example say Golf 5. And for the Golf 6 they said "OK, let's check with service centers which parts failed the least. That means they were over-strengthened. Let's thin out this and that, use a cheaper material/alloy, so that it will still (barely) last 5 years but be cheaper to produce. And we'll still sell it for the same price" wink
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
The Japanese have done it before. And we learned from it.

Yes. An the world and consumer products were immensely simpler than nowadays. I emphasize I am not pro bad quality or complexity as an excuse for releasing flawed products, especially when lives are at stake. But all this talk about absolute quality are simply not realistic.

Let's agree to disagree in the few points we do and go back to topic.
Hi DaveC

Iam in the UK and bought my piano from a shop in the south east ( I am in the midlands approx 140 miles away)

They assigned W D Greenhill & Co based at Essex. Contact is Nigel

hope this helps
Hi EVC2017 and cybergene.

We do seem to have hijacked atopic but it was James's fault smile

I just want to make a simple comment.

If you buy a piano advertised as latest top of the tech model at full price then join a forum and find out its almost 3-4 years obsolete, has minimal further updates, and was built with a failing keyboard system that was pointed out in previous generations then you have the right to a bit wary about the company selling it and their ethics.

As you say, in the modern society you would just go somewhere else for your next piano and hope its not the same ethics in that company.

This does not excuse the first company from selling known faulty products at full price to fund the fixes for the next generation of piano and ignoring the curent issues.

If its your first dabble in DP then it takes the shine off thinking you have bought something current and good quality.

Thanks
Piano Reisinger in Austria did a touchweight
measuring of 49 gram on middle c. That's
in line with Thomanns 48,5 gram on the same key.
Originally Posted by StevieG1975
Originally Posted by Nordomus
Originally Posted by Burkie
I also played the CA99, however there was a strange vibration sound coming from something inside (rattling/buzzing sound). Initially I thought it was the music rest or the lid, but the salesman and I eliminated those possibilities.
I had this problem with CA98. After 3(!) technician visits he finally found that it was because of loose screws inside the piano at the back so the whole back vibrated(rattled) sometimes. With pianos like CA98 or any other with soundboard they have to be assembled PERFECTLY, even smallest imperfection WILL be heard because of the extensive instrument vibration.

I quickly jumped back on this forum to see if anyone else has the same issue i've encountered with my CA99. I too now have this horrid rattling vibration noise on the lower notes coming from the soundboard. Really frustrating and just cant bare to hear it so have stopped playing it. I've been onto my dealer who will speak to Kawai but due to lock down cant have anyone from Kawai to pop out. Very frustrating especially given the face im not playing at full volume and it wasnt like it when first received. Hoping its a one stop quick fix and not multiple engineering visits as mentioned above.

Did you get this sorted? I also got a brand new CA99 with this issue recently. Dealer has informed me that Kawai UK say this noise is 'to be expected'. I told them no way that a piano this expensive should be making this sort of noise, and that they should send a technician out to fix it.
Originally Posted by DanLowry
Did you get this sorted? I also got a brand new CA99 with this issue recently. Dealer has informed me that Kawai UK say this noise is 'to be expected'. I told them no way that a piano this expensive should be making this sort of noise, and that they should send a technician out to fix it.

In my understanding, people are experiencing two kind of noises 1)the soundboard rattling playing bass notes, 2) white noise/hiss playing chords on the central octaves from the top speakers (very easy to hear playing the electric bass sound in my experience)

I have got the piano replaced due to the white noise/hiss (plus a couple of louder keys). The new piano makes both noises.

I find both of them unacceptable even on a £200 piano.
The dealer is allowing me to give the piano back and get a refund.
Originally Posted by markillo
Unfortunately, I have to join people with the same problem. I can hear a "rzrzrrzrz" sound from both treble and bass, with every sound and different volumes. Moreover, a group of 4 notes in central octave is significantly louder (even on headphones) making the experience with the piano quite bad. Kawai UK does not look interested in solving the issues and I will likely give back the piano.
Really disappointed.

I felt that too in the showroom but when I get next chance I should reassess. My impression is, at the same volume of treble compared to CA79, the CA99 has excess bass making the cabinet resonate/vibrate. I can't figure out the engineering reason, so I'm wondering if the usage could be: u're not meant to play at the same treble output as CA79. What I'll try is, to play it about 1 notch or more lower volume such that the cabinet doesn't vibrate any more. Judging from that volume, what is the audio effect achieved ? It might be, the intention is to simulate the sound experienced not by the player, but by the audience, where there is relatively more bass than treble due to sound travel over distance.

If that is true, what I'd expect to hear then is, the effect feeling like u're in your own audience.

Sound engineering-wise, it's actually possible (maybe future models) to have a switch to change equalizer settings such that one setting gives u the piano player output, and another setting giving you the audience listening effect.

We already have this achieved in some ways by headphone effect versus speaker output but it needs more adjustments still to achieve good effect.
[Linked Image]

Although I've been reading pw quite regularly, I joined a few days ago about a week after I got my Kawai CA79. I upgraded from stage pianos (Korg Grandstage, Korg D1 which are excellent keyboards btw) after I decidedly set forth on my musical journey into the Classical Piano world. It was a tough decision between the CA79 and Clavinova. I also have a VPC1 which is kind of my "exercises only" piano.

- I decided I didn't like the stiffness as much as I thought I would (I wasn't prepared for THAT amount of stiffness when I first tried out the Clavinova.)
- Another factor was the bold, bell/whistles design of Clavinova vs. the soft, understated and no nonsense looks of the CA79.
- One of the benefits of visiting a real, pianos-only store is being able to try different things, AND listen to experienced musicians advise you. I went in looking for a heavy, close to grand piano action as my main requirement. Since the piano store had ALL kinds of instruments: grand, uprights, digital hybrid, acoustic hybrid, concert and studio grands etc. etc., I played them all (even laid my hands on a Steinway which was until then a dream). I decided my requirement of ONLY heavy, grand action was flawed. Overall sound and experience was what mattered. The Clavinova was way stiffer than almost all the acoustics that I tried. They may have a good reason to design it that way, but for me, I quickly dismissed it, and started looking at other models comparing each to the acoustics I played. None of the digital models matched, but Kawai came closest. I even was in two minds because the Korg D1 was also pretty close in touch.

Nevertheless, after just playing on the CA79, admiring the look and feel, imagining it in my house - the overall experience felt just right to me. I also finally had the satisfaction of a no-regret buy - never had the same feeling shopping online.

So here I am, eager to keep learning on my Kawais. I hope to contribute more to this forum.
Originally Posted by DanLowry
Originally Posted by StevieG1975
Originally Posted by Nordomus
Originally Posted by Burkie
I also played the CA99, however there was a strange vibration sound coming from something inside (rattling/buzzing sound). Initially I thought it was the music rest or the lid, but the salesman and I eliminated those possibilities.
I had this problem with CA98. After 3(!) technician visits he finally found that it was because of loose screws inside the piano at the back so the whole back vibrated(rattled) sometimes. With pianos like CA98 or any other with soundboard they have to be assembled PERFECTLY, even smallest imperfection WILL be heard because of the extensive instrument vibration.

I quickly jumped back on this forum to see if anyone else has the same issue i've encountered with my CA99. I too now have this horrid rattling vibration noise on the lower notes coming from the soundboard. Really frustrating and just cant bare to hear it so have stopped playing it. I've been onto my dealer who will speak to Kawai but due to lock down cant have anyone from Kawai to pop out. Very frustrating especially given the face im not playing at full volume and it wasnt like it when first received. Hoping its a one stop quick fix and not multiple engineering visits as mentioned above.

Did you get this sorted? I also got a brand new CA99 with this issue recently. Dealer has informed me that Kawai UK say this noise is 'to be expected'. I told them no way that a piano this expensive should be making this sort of noise, and that they should send a technician out to fix it.
No way - no piano on earth should make that rattling/buzzing sound I heard!

On the plus side: at least your dealer admitted the sound exists. The old codger I pointed it out to pretended he couldn't hear it. Well either he was pretending, or he actually was deaf which means his ability to provide useful advice to prospective piano buyers is rather 'limited' :-p
© Piano World Piano & Digital Piano Forums