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Hi guys,

I'm finding quite difficult to compare digital pianos based on their specs, and online reviews do not help much as they tend to focus on how rich the instrument palette or how cool the recording feature are. I think the way to go is to try them and experience how they feel. Ultimately this will tell you which one fits better to the feelings you are used to. But unfortunately, some of us does not have the opportunity to try the piano beforehand, especially if you buy online.

That said, this is my particular case: I have a purely classical background. I have enjoyed playing in acoustic grand pianos most of my life. 99% of what I play is Bach, Schubert, Chopin, Debussy, etc. I used to have an amazing Yamaha C3, but for personal reasons I moved and had to leave my beloved piano behind. I guess now can wonder the feelings that I am used to.

Due to my situation I am only considering digital pianos. I know nothing will compare to my old Yamaha, but I want to get something as close as possible in terms of keyboard feeling and dynamics/timbre/color spectrum that it gives you to play with. Any other feature such as other instruments, recording, accompaniment or playback are things that I will simply not use. I want to keep the budget under £500 if possible.

After some research, these are the options I have been considering so far:
- Casio Celviano AP 200
- Casio Celviano AP 450
- Casio PX 760
- Kawai CN2
- Yamaha Clavinova CLP 152S

I don't know if they are crap or incredible instruments, so your opinions are strongly appreciated. Any other brand/model that may suit my needs is more than welcome!

Many thanks guys!
In my personal opinion FP30 has the best action among the budget keyboards (I've owned FP30, ES110, and now Yamaha P45/P71 among the budget pianos, and an Avantgrand N1X hybrid)
Quote
- Casio Celviano AP 200


Old. It was introduced around mid 2000's (2007?) or so probably. It has an older generation of Casio's Scaled Hammer Action. My understanding is that they still use a similar one in the low range CDP models. (But not CDP-S)

My PX-800 is very similar. I believe. The sound isn't great. The sustain is somewhat short. Otherwise there's nothing really annoying soundwise. It's just not great. And the keys are seriously noisy as worn out Casios tend to be(come).

Sound samples:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ytAIiOLb8M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scUtTY5D9ko

Quote
- Casio Celviano AP 450


A relatively modern Casio.

Quote
- Casio PX 760


Likewise.

Casios have a short pivot length. You might find it a problem being used to proper pianos.

Quote
- Kawai CN2


This one goes way back to 2005 at least. Kawai has the specs and sound samples still available: https://www.kawai.co.uk/products/archive/cn2/

Can't really say anything educated about it. Might be similar to a more recent Kawai ES-100 which I'm transitioning to once I get rid of my Casio. The ES-100 sounds and feels nicer than the PX-800. If the AHAIV action in it is similar to the AHAIV-F it has a longer pivot than the Casios.

Quote
- Yamaha Clavinova CLP 152S


Introduced in 1994, apparently. It's not full 88 keys. Could be a very low end model even for its time and compared to other CLP-15X models. Ignore...

Personally I wouldn't be excited about any of those models. And I can't even really play much and haven't touched an acoustic piano that many times. They are all a bit meh...
Without having read the previous answers -
no digital will feel like a real acoustic grand piano.
The piano is a very very complex instrument, and reproduction of all phenomena can't be properly reproduced to be the same in feel and expression.

Although there are hybrids, it's still not the same.

Close to it? Even by actual high-end, it's still a whole lot to go.
I'm not sure what kind of research you did ...
Originally Posted by DrGradus
After some research, these are the options I have been considering so far:
- Casio Celviano AP 200
- Casio Celviano AP 450
- Casio PX 760
- Kawai CN2
- Yamaha Clavinova CLP 152S
... but I would have guessed it would be difficult to find much information about these oldies.

I wouldn't give them a look at all. I would not consider anything more than five years old.
I didn't consider Roland models as stands do not look very robust and I don't even know if proper pedals are available. But let's include it in the list if you think the feeling deserves it.
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Can't really say anything educated about it. Might be similar to a more recent Kawai ES-100 which I'm transitioning to once I get rid of my Casio. The ES-100 sounds and feels nicer than the PX-800. If the AHAIV action in it is similar to the AHAIV-F it has a longer pivot than the Casios.

Personally I wouldn't be excited about any of those models. And I can't even really play much and haven't touched an acoustic piano that many times. They are all a bit meh...

Would you recommend ES-100? Or is there in your opinion anything better in this budget? Could AP450 and PX760 still be good options or would I better to avoid them?

Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Without having read the previous answers -
no digital will feel like a real acoustic grand piano.
The piano is a very very complex instrument, and reproduction of all phenomena can't be properly reproduced to be the same in feel and expression.

Although there are hybrids, it's still not the same.

Close to it? Even by actual high-end, it's still a whole lot to go.

I know nothing will come close to that. I am aware and I assume anything digital I can buy will be far from what I am used to. However, I still want to find the options that would maximize feel and expression within my budget.

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I'm not sure what kind of research you did but I would have guessed it would be difficult to find much information about these oldies.

I wouldn't give them a look at all. I would not consider anything more than five years old.

These are second hand digital pianos I have found in my area and a new one that is on my budget (PX 760). In fact they are the pianos that I didn't discard in the first instance. Any relatively new model you can suggest?
Since you indicate you can't try the piano before ordering, I would order from someone with a good return policy and start with one of the major brands: Casio, Kawai, Roland, Yamaha here in the US, not sure if it's the same in Europe. Get the best model your budget will allow, and if you don't like it, send it back. That will cost you some shipping charges, but at least you'll have a chance to try it out first.

I don't know what prices are like in Europe, but I would guess you will get the most piano for your budget with a Casio. If you can stretch a bit, I prefer Roland's touch even though I've always played Yamahas. I would guess you will find the Yamaha touch too heavy. Kawai makes a really nice keyboard but I'm not sure if the ES110 would fall within your budget there. If it does, I would say it's almost a tie with the Roland for my preferred touch.

I concur with other posters that the models you are looking at are too old, you're really taking a risk getting something that old. If you buy used, stick with something that's only a few years old- most of the depreciation has taken place by then so you should be able to get a good deal.
In this budget nothing comes close to the Roland FP-30 imho. The Samples are a bit harsh for my taste but if you combine it with a good VST, it's a nobrainer.
I agree (as a former owner) with the positive vibes for the action of the FP-30. Like Tyrone, I've also owned the Kawai ES110 and Yamaha P45. If I were buying again in this range, it'd be the FP-30.

(You do seem to have some negative preconceptions re the Rolands, so you may not be able to overcome those and be satisfied - particularly since NO instrument in this range will be perfect. If it's only a concern about stands/pedals, I must say they certainly seem fine to me.)
Originally Posted by DrGradus
These are second hand digital pianos I have found in my area and a new one that is on my budget (PX 760). In fact they are the pianos that I didn't discard in the first instance. Any relatively new model you can suggest?
I would suggest trying out these oldies and seeing how you like them. Secondly I'd suggest a Casio PX-870. It's the only one that I have direct experience with and I do enjoy mine. Thirdly, take advice on an online forum with a grain of salt. Try various ones for yourself. Many will.have preconceived notions about brands they have little to no experience with.
+1 for the PX-870. For those who are saying that NO digital piano even comes remotely close to the real thing... well, they've obviously not owned the PX-870. If this formally trained (ARCT) classical guy is enjoying this piano this much, believe me, it's pretty freaking close to the real deal. For a thousand bucks, you will LOVE this instrument for playing classical music!

[Linked Image]
Originally Posted by DrGradus
I didn't consider Roland models as stands do not look very robust and I don't even know if proper pedals are available. But let's include it in the list if you think the feeling deserves it.

A very robust furniture stand is offered for the FP30, which I used. It screws together and the keyboard is screwed to the stand. So it's not going anywhere. See a pic here of what the furniture stand looks like.
Originally Posted by MacMacMac


I wouldn't give them a look at all. I would not consider anything more than five years old.


+1. There are significant improvements, in 2004-2014.

Your budget is very tight. Maybe a used Roland FP-30, or current-generation Casio (PX-870 isn't a bad choice).

IMHO, most low-end DP's suffer from underpowered amps, and too-small loudspeakers. That can be fixed, but it's an extra cost. They sound better through upgraded sound systems --

. . . or you could play with headphones, if that suits you.

A visit to a shop, to try some of the current DP's out, would be a good idea. Neither our words, nor YouTube videos, is as good as ten minutes of test playing and listening.
+1 for the PX series. You can get close to a real piano in feel. Sound, not so much.
Originally Posted by camperbc
+1 for the PX-870. For those who are saying that NO digital piano even comes remotely close to the real thing... well, they've obviously not owned the PX-870. If this formally trained (ARCT) classical guy is enjoying this piano this much, believe me, it's pretty freaking close to the real deal.


I tried this last year and none of the stage piano actions found in entry level consoles are even remotely close to the real deal. On top of it Casio suffers from a short pivot and short samples.

But if your budget is that low, "close to acoustic feeling" is something you have to strike from the list anyway - that's up there with the NU1X at 5.000 bucks, not at 500 bucks -and look for a decent modern DP action, which doesn't break.
Originally Posted by JoeT

But if your budget is that low, "close to acoustic feeling" is something you have to strike from the list anyway - that's up there with the NU1X at 5.000 bucks, not at 500 bucks -and look for a decent modern DP action, which doesn't break.
If I may be equally blunt, if you're going to plunk down the amount of money needed to buy a (let's face it) fake piano like the NU1X, you might as well pony up for a real baby grand or quality upright, simply because NO digital in any price bracket is going to be exactly equivalent to an acoustic. The differences in DPs are really on the margins. The PX-870 is close enough a simulation, which is what *all DPs are*, pivot points and super-duper-we-got-REAL-felt-and-hammers-and-stuff-in-there niceties aside. I'll take the Casio's less-than-ideal pivot point and keep the 6 grand, thanks.
Maybe you can find a cheap secondhand silent piano, and couple that to a great vst like garritan cfx or something else?

Sometimes piano are hard to sell and therefore can go very cheap. This way you will have a real action and great sound.
Gear4Music's Black Friday weekend price for the Kawai ES-110 is within your budget:

https://www.gear4music.com/Keyboards-and-Pianos/Kawai-ES110-Digital-Stage-Piano-Black/1SXB

Comes also in white.

You'd also need a stand of some sort. And a bench. Kawai does offer an optional "furniture stand" and an optional triple pedal bar. Just a single sustain pedal is included. Some have built there own stand and I think the dimensions are found somewhere on this forum.

They also have Casio PX-760 for less than £500:

https://www.gear4music.com/Keyboards-and-Pianos/Casio-PX-760-Digital-Piano/14XY

You'd only need to add a bench. Or get it with a bench:

https://www.gear4music.com/Keyboards-and-Pianos/Casio-PX-760-Digital-Piano-Package-Black/1JZB

As for recommendations: I can't recommend anything as I haven't been touring the music stores trying out various models. And I don't have a Yamaha C3. laugh

And G4M's own brand pianos are from various Hong Kong and China based manufacturers and are somewhat of mysteries and people here won't have much (nice or at all) to say about them.

EDIT: Looks like e.g. Bonners' pricing is very similar for the ES-110 and PX-760.
Originally Posted by Learux
+1 for the PX series. You can get close to a real piano in feel. Sound, not so much.

As for the "feel", I completely agree with you... the PX-870 at least, which is the only Privia model that I have firsthand experience with, certainly does feel very close to playing an acoustic piano. But I must disagree with your comment that the sound is not ideal. Surely one can't find much fault with the PX-870's sound, which I find quite authentic indeed. (otherwise I wouldn't have bought one!) And even if you're truly not too fond of the sound, it can be improved even more, simply by adding a pair of studio monitors.

Casio's Privia line is certainly proof that you don't have to spend thousands of dollars to get something which sounds/feels like the real deal. Just stop by the house one day for coffee, and I'll give you a sampling of what this instrument is really capable of!
thumb
Originally Posted by camperbc
Originally Posted by Learux
+1 for the PX series. You can get close to a real piano in feel. Sound, not so much.

As for the "feel", I completely agree with you... the PX-870 at least, which is the only Privia model that I have firsthand experience with, certainly does feel very close to playing an acoustic piano. But I must disagree with your comment that the sound is not ideal. Surely one can't find much fault with the PX-870's sound, which I find quite authentic indeed. (otherwise I wouldn't have bought one!) And even if you're truly not too fond of the sound, it can be improved even more, simply by adding a pair of studio monitors.

Casio's Privia line is certainly proof that you don't have to spend thousands of dollars to get something which sounds/feels like the real deal. Just stop by the house one day for coffee, and I'll give you a sampling of what this instrument is really capable of!
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I don't know if you are super enthusiastic or if its marketing hype, but I am dubious. I "inherited" my fathers upright piano (which he bought new when I was 5 and which I started on) in the early 1990s. I didn't play it at all (other than a few short sessions just mucking about - no serious attempt to play anything) although my youngest daughter did learn. So in May 2017, when she moved into her first big house she "inherited" it from me. When I decided to restart piano in September 2017 I had no choice but to buy a digital. I did and went out and bought a Casio AP-470. Within a few weeks I felt the action was lacking. Two main factors - short pivot length, making it very difficult to play close to the fallboard, and plastic only keys making it fill like you were hitting concrete when you pushed a key to the key bed. So I went searching again and traded the Casio in for a Kawai CA67. To me the action was perfect - easier to play close to the fallboard and exactly the right feel when hitting the keybed.

Shortly after acquiring the Kawai I went to visit my daughter, and of course tried to play on the acoustic upright. I hated it - found the action very difficult. BUT a couple of months later I had improved considerably as my finger tips started to become sensitive to the touch and the need to control the dynamics of what I was playing. On a following visit I suddenly found I could feel the acoustic and rather than inhibiting my playing it was enhancing it. I could control it and get feedback through my fingers and body. It was a marvelous feeling.

I am fortunate in that I live a few miles drive from Bonners Music Warehouse in Reigate in the UK (which were I had purchased the previous two digitals) and was able to go and explore. Their Reigate showroom has lots of digitals AND lots of acoustics - both new (mainly Kawai and Feurich) and second hand (obviously varying dependant as to what is in at the time). So I was able to go there specifically to see if I could find a digital which replicated that feedback that I had found so good. The sad truth is that I tried them all and most didn't even come close. In fact the only one I found which came a little close was the Kawai Novus 10 - but even that was lacking.

I was of course also able to try the acoustics. Some of the old (and cheap) second hand uprights didn't feel that good, but most of the grands and all the new uprights were way better to play than any digital. I still need a digital to practice using headphones - but I am now determined that I must also buy myself an acoustic piano as well. In September 2020 - I will have the space and finance for a baby grand. That's when it will happen
Originally Posted by akc42
In September 2020 - I will have the space and finance for a baby grand. That's when it will happen

Oh, how exciting for you! thumb
Originally Posted by akc42
I don't know if you are super enthusiastic or if its marketing hype, but I am dubious.

And this is why I am always a little hesitant to post anything about digital pianos on this forum. I really ought to be used to the endless negativity by now, as I've been on the receiving end of these types of comments since the day I joined.
Originally Posted by camperbc
Originally Posted by akc42
I don't know if you are super enthusiastic or if its marketing hype, but I am dubious.

And this is why I am always a little hesitant to post anything about digital pianos on this forum. I really ought to be used to the endless negativity by now, as I've been on the receiving end of these types of comments since the day I joined.

I don't think this is completely fair. It is completely fair when someone says negative things about the product that you like when they themselves have never used that product. However, in this case, akc42 said he owned the Casio AP-470. The Casio AP-470 uses the Tri-sensor Scaled Hammer Action Keyboard II, the identical action as is in the Casio PX-870. So with regard to the action at least, his comments are no longer uninformed. They are now informed. That he had a negative personal experience with the exact same keyboard action is probably why he is being cynical with the same keyboard action as yours, when you have been highly enthusiastic is likely the reason for his skepticism. I also am skeptical when (in other circumstances) I hear someone describe something as amazing and great which I myself had a completely different experience with - whether that is food, a vacation, a car, etc.
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I don't think this is completely fair.

Wow, you too? Gotta be honest, I didn't see that one coming. Tough crowd.
Not everyone likes the same things. That's normal.

...and the problem with internet discussion board advice.
Originally Posted by camperbc
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I don't think this is completely fair.

Wow, you too? Gotta be honest, I didn't see that one coming. Tough crowd.

I'm not attacking you Glen. It's more that I am defending akc42 because he is a real stand up guy and he really did have the same piano (innards at least). So I feel like that qualifies him to say something even if one doesn't like what he has to say.

Example, if you were to say something negative about the Avantgrand N1X, which I have, but you don't have, I would feel differently than someone who had an N1X and sold it making similar remarks. The former, I would wonder how you are qualified to speak so about the piano I have. The latter, I would shake my head and just say that I disagree and had a different experience. I guess I am just saying Glen, you should just shake your head and say to akc42 that you have a different experience.
Wow, that escalated quickly guys. Either from positive and negative comments I can get tips and ideas of what might fit my expectations (well, some of them). Regardless of how qualified somebody could be to make an statement, they are all positive opinions for me, and I greatly appreciate all your contributions guys.

Unfortunately I can't express my own opinion so far as my experience has been with acoustics (very good ones indeed), but I am also used to crap uprights from my old days in the conservatory, so I am somewhat tolerant to "less capable" pianos. Anyway, I just want to make the best use of my money and get the model whose dynamic capabilities come as close to an acoustic as my budget can afford. And if there is a huge step for just a 100 quid, I can stretch my budget a bit and go for it, the only thing I want to avoid is to jump to a thousand.

So far, most of your suggestions fall in the following list:
- Roland FP30
- Kawai ES110
- Casio PX760/870

I think that should become my new potential digitals list, so forget about the one in my first post.

I have been reading about FP30 and there are three very nice features. First, there are 88 individual hammered action strengths. Second, playing a note produces reverb in any harmonic that is already pressed (either by pressing the key or the pedal). And third, the hammered mechanism includes this extra resistance somewhere past half of the key travel (in an acoustic piano if a key is slowly pressed, you will feel that there is a kind of latching position halfway in the key travel with an additional resistance, it feels like a "clack" - in fact, if you stop there and then fully press the key, the hammer will never touch the string due to how the mechanism is, and this effect is replicated in the FP30). I think these three features may give more freedom to express dynamics and colors when playing classical music.

Does any of you know if the ES110 and PX's have any of these features too?
For resonating open strings, on the harmonics of a struck note:

. . . Look for "string resonance" (_not_ "damper resonance") in the specs, for each model.

I didn't know the FP-30 supported that feature.
Quote
First, there are 88 individual hammered action strengths.


Indeed. Often more affordable DPs have 3 or 4 zones of hammer weights.

Quote
Second, playing a note produces reverb in any harmonic that is already pressed (either by pressing the key or the pedal).


"Pedal resonance" or "Damper resonance" i.e. resonance resulting from the damper pedal being pressed down is common these days. The resonances of invidual keys without the pedal are usually known as "String resonance" and e.g. the ES-110 does lack that. Higher end Privias and Celvianos varyingly do have it. The PX-870 has and the PX-760 doesn't.

Quote
"And third, the hammered mechanism includes this extra resistance somewhere past half of the key travel"


It's known as "Escapement" or "Let off" in DPs. The Kawai and Casios don't have it.

One more thing is "Half damper" and looks like the sustain pedal in the PX-760 might be just a simple on/off switch. The PX-870 (probably), Roland and Kawai pedals are continuous and allow gradations of sustain.
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
One more thing is "Half damper" and looks like the sustain pedal in the PX-760 might be just a simple on/off switch. The PX-870 (probably),

I believe camperbc has confirmed that he can half-pedal his PX-870.
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
One more thing is "Half damper" and looks like the sustain pedal in the PX-760 might be just a simple on/off switch. The PX-870 (probably),

I believe camperbc has confirmed that he can half-pedal his PX-870.


Yes, I can confirm that my PX-870 has half-pedal capability. But I wonder if someone can please explain the difference between "seamless half-pedal support" and "half-pedal supported"? In my owner's annual it says this in the specs under "Pedals":

PX-870: Damper (seamless half-pedal support), sostenuto, soft
PX-770: Damper (half-pedal supported), sostenuto, soft
Originally Posted by camperbc
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
One more thing is "Half damper" and looks like the sustain pedal in the PX-760 might be just a simple on/off switch. The PX-870 (probably),

I believe camperbc has confirmed that he can half-pedal his PX-870.


Yes, I can confirm that my PX-870 has half-pedal capability. But I wonder if someone can please explain the difference between "seamless half-pedal support" and "half-pedal supported"? In my owner's annual it says this in the specs under "Pedals":

PX-870: Damper (seamless half-pedal support), sostenuto, soft
PX-770: Damper (half-pedal supported), sostenuto, soft

Perhaps this "seamless half-pedal" just means a continuous half-pedal, where you can have multiple positions/degrees between fully damped and fully open string? While the other means there is only one position in the middle between damped and open string? Anyone have an 770 to test if there is only one half-pedal position on that one?
Some digital pianos have half pedal, but it's like a switch with no pedal, half-pedal, and full pedal. Real pianos don't work like this. The transition between imperceptible and full pedalling should be smooth.
Originally Posted by camperbc
Yes, I can confirm that my PX-870 has half-pedal capability. But I wonder if someone can please explain the difference between "seamless half-pedal support" and "half-pedal supported"? In my owner's annual it says this in the specs under "Pedals":

PX-870: Damper (seamless half-pedal support), sostenuto, soft
PX-770: Damper (half-pedal supported), sostenuto, soft

Maybe "seamless" is fully continuous and just "half-pedal" is on/off/half positions only? I'm just guessing.

Originally Posted by clothearednincompo

Indeed. Often more affordable DPs have 3 or 4 zones of hammer weights.

"Pedal resonance" or "Damper resonance" i.e. resonance resulting from the damper pedal being pressed down is common these days. The resonances of invidual keys without the pedal are usually known as "String resonance" and e.g. the ES-110 does lack that. Higher end Privias and Celvianos varyingly do have it. The PX-870 has and the PX-760 doesn't.

It's known as "Escapement" or "Let off" in DPs. The Kawai and Casios don't have it.

One more thing is "Half damper" and looks like the sustain pedal in the PX-760 might be just a simple on/off switch. The PX-870 (probably), Roland and Kawai pedals are continuous and allow gradations of sustain.

Ok, this is precious information. This means that (and correct me if I'm wrong):
[Linked Image]

FP30 starts to seem a serious option...
Originally Posted by DrGradus
Originally Posted by camperbc
Yes, I can confirm that my PX-870 has half-pedal capability. But I wonder if someone can please explain the difference between "seamless half-pedal support" and "half-pedal supported"? In my owner's annual it says this in the specs under "Pedals":

PX-870: Damper (seamless half-pedal support), sostenuto, soft
PX-770: Damper (half-pedal supported), sostenuto, soft

Maybe "seamless" is fully continuous and just "half-pedal" is on/off/half positions only? I'm just guessing.

Originally Posted by clothearednincompo

Indeed. Often more affordable DPs have 3 or 4 zones of hammer weights.

"Pedal resonance" or "Damper resonance" i.e. resonance resulting from the damper pedal being pressed down is common these days. The resonances of invidual keys without the pedal are usually known as "String resonance" and e.g. the ES-110 does lack that. Higher end Privias and Celvianos varyingly do have it. The PX-870 has and the PX-760 doesn't.

It's known as "Escapement" or "Let off" in DPs. The Kawai and Casios don't have it.

One more thing is "Half damper" and looks like the sustain pedal in the PX-760 might be just a simple on/off switch. The PX-870 (probably), Roland and Kawai pedals are continuous and allow gradations of sustain.

Ok, this is precious information. This means that (and correct me if I'm wrong):
[Linked Image]

FP30 starts to seem a serious option...

Of course, the FP30's "escapement" is really only a simulation.
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Of course, the FP30's "escapement" is really only a simulation.

I expect any feature in a digital piano to be a simulation as long as it is, as a whole, a simulation of an acoustic piano. I am happy with it.
Originally Posted by DrGradus
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Of course, the FP30's "escapement" is really only a simulation.
I expect any feature in a digital piano to be a simulation as long as it is, as a whole, a simulation of an acoustic piano. I am happy with it.

My point is the notch on the FP30 actually does nothing except make you feel there is one. It otherwise has no functional purpose, unlike the escapement on an acoustic which performs a function.
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
My point is the notch on the FP30 actually does nothing except make you feel there is one. It otherwise has no functional purpose, unlike the escapement on an acoustic which performs a function.

Ok, now I see your point. Well, apparently in the FP30 after a certain key travel, fully depression of that key does not produce any sound, which is what you can expect in acoustics. However my feeling has always been that this effect in acoustics is a consequence of the mechanism that allows to repeatedly hammer a string without fully releasing the key (which is a functionality that I expect in any digital), rather than a desired functionality all alone. In any case, just being a simulated feeling, I hope it helps fingers to feel more confortable with the keyboard.
You are an experienced pianist who used to own a good acoustic grand piano. Trying to make a decision based on a spec sheet is total folly.
You are asking for info to evaluate without actually playing the instruments the feature of any piano that least can be evaluated without playing the instruments— the action. Whether or not you like an action is a very personal thing.
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
You are an experienced pianist who used to own a good acoustic grand piano. Trying to make a decision based on a spec sheet is total folly.


+1/2.

I don't think it's _total_ folly. But you've got a reasonable list of low-budget DP's:

. . . You should try some of them out.

(Forgive me if this sounds like a broken record . . . )
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
However, in this case, akc42 said he owned the Casio AP-470. The Casio AP-470 uses the Tri-sensor Scaled Hammer Action Keyboard II, the identical action as is in the Casio PX-870. So with regard to the action at least, his comments are no longer uninformed.
Well I don't take any of it personally; I'm happy with the PX 870 while recognizing that, like everything else, it's not perfect. However, one recurring gripe about the Casio is its pivot point and inability to play close to the fallboard. 1. I really don't notice that problem and 2. Who plays that close to the fallboard anyway? I don't.
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Who plays that close to the fallboard anyway? I don't.


Some repertoire requires it.
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Who plays that close to the fallboard anyway? I don't.


Some repertoire requires it.

I've never seen it in any of the standard rep that I've played. What are some examples?
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Who plays that close to the fallboard anyway? I don't.


Some repertoire requires it.

I've never seen it in any of the standard rep that I've played. What are some examples?

Flight of the bumblebee - Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov. A lot of white notes in amongst the ebonies, plus on top of that when you're playing it Lang Lang speed the longer pivot length helps tremendously.
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Who plays that close to the fallboard anyway? I don't.


Some repertoire requires it.

I've never seen it in any of the standard rep that I've played. What are some examples?


Chopin Sonata No.2 Bar 9 left hand.

Beethoven "Waldstein" Sonata Bar 21, left hand.

Ravel, Le Gibet from Gaspard de la Nuit, Bar 32 left hand.

Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Who plays that close to the fallboard anyway? I don't.


Some repertoire requires it.

I've never seen it in any of the standard rep that I've played. What are some examples?


Chopin Sonata No.2 Bar 9 left hand.

Beethoven "Waldstein" Sonata Bar 21, left hand.

Ravel, Le Gibet from Gaspard de la Nuit, Bar 32 left hand.


I'll have to confess I've never gotten into the Chopin or Ravel, but I have played the Waldstein and never felt compelled to play right up against the fallboard.
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Who plays that close to the fallboard anyway? I don't.


Some repertoire requires it.

I've never seen it in any of the standard rep that I've played. What are some examples?

I think a piece that is good for experience the benefit of a longer pivot, that isn't crazy difficult, is the beginning of Schuberts famous impromptu in G flat major. Due to the key the hand position falls automatically close to the fallboard and a longer pivot makes it easier to control the separation between the melody from the accompanying notes.
Actually you don‘t even need a real piece for this. Just play a B minor chord with your right hand, thumb on the B. Your index and middle finger will rest on D and E, respectively, and will be fairly close to the fallboard. If the key length is really short, playing the five notes B to F sharp will feel noticeably different. This is especially problematic on synth keybeds. On my QS6 this was almost not playable. On a piano the difference is not as
strong. Alternatively, play a B flat, F and the next higher octave B flat in the left hand. The F will be fairly close to the fallboard.
I am confused why most folks mention the FP30 and not the FP10. At $200 less you can buy active monitors for a much better sound, I think, and the action is exactly the same. Also, I believe the additional FP30 sounds are available with the Roland app. Any ideas why this is?
Originally Posted by johanibraaten
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Who plays that close to the fallboard anyway? I don't.


Some repertoire requires it.

I've never seen it in any of the standard rep that I've played. What are some examples?

I think a piece that is good for experience the benefit of a longer pivot, that isn't crazy difficult, is the beginning of Schuberts famous impromptu in G flat major. Due to the key the hand position falls automatically close to the fallboard and a longer pivot makes it easier to control the separation between the melody from the accompanying notes.

Well this is *closer* to the fallboard, and if you're playing in G flat then naturally your fingers are indeed going to be closer to the fallboard. But in berating the PX 870 I get the impression that for some reason you can't play right at the upper edge of the keys which in turn (news to me) is a vital piano skill. It would appear to be more a case of personal style in most instances except maybe octaves played at high speed. Even so: the point is I don't sense any problem with Casio's ability to handle that. It feels at least similar to most other halfway decent pianos I've played.
Originally Posted by IosPlayer
I am confused why most folks mention the FP30 and not the FP10. At $200 less you can buy active monitors for a much better sound, I think, and the action is exactly the same. Also, I believe the additional FP30 sounds are available with the Roland app. Any ideas why this is?


As far as pedalling is concerned, the FP-10 does not have the same capability. That alone is is enough to put off prospective buyers.
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Well this is *closer* to the fallboard, and if you're playing in G flat then naturally your fingers are indeed going to be closer to the fallboard. But in berating the PX 870 I get the impression that for some reason you can't play right at the upper edge of the keys which in turn (news to me) is a vital piano skill. It would appear to be more a case of personal style in most instances except maybe octaves played at high speed. Even so: the point is I don't sense any problem with Casio's ability to handle that. It feels at least similar to most other halfway decent pianos I've played.

Sorry, but I didn't read the whole thread before making my comment. It was meant more as a general suggestion on repertoire for trying out different keybeds and not a criticism of the Casio PX-870. On the contrary I really like the Casio actions.
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen

I'll have to confess I've never gotten into the Chopin or Ravel, but I have played the Waldstein and never felt compelled to play right up against the fallboard.


There's no need to go right up, but it's difficult to have a good hand position for the tremolo with the thumb on A# unless the C and E are played fairly far in on the key. On a grand, of with long keys, it's much more comfortable and easier to control.
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen

Well this is *closer* to the fallboard, and if you're playing in G flat then naturally your fingers are indeed going to be closer to the fallboard. But in berating the PX 870 I get the impression that for some reason you can't play right at the upper edge of the keys which in turn (news to me) is a vital piano skill. It would appear to be more a case of personal style in most instances except maybe octaves played at high speed. Even so: the point is I don't sense any problem with Casio's ability to handle that. It feels at least similar to most other halfway decent pianos I've played.

I completely agree with you, rmns2bseen. In all of my years of formal training/playing, I never once felt that I must play right up at the fallboard. Ever. (and I must have played pretty much every classical piece a person could name) I suppose if this is the PX-870's greatest fault... well, I guess there's really not too much to complain about.

Having said that, I do recall that when I sat down to play mine for the very first time, I vaguely noticed that it felt just a wee bit different while playing up closer to the fallboard, but this was more likely due to the length of time since I last played an acoustic, rather than any huge fault with the Casio. After the first few minutes of playing, I never gave it a second thought.
The whole "OMG TEH CASIO PIVOT!!!" nonsense around here is tiresome, especially when it's no worse (and possibly a bit better than) Yamaha, but hardly anyone ever mentions that ... As far as I can tell, it's mostly based on one pseudo-scientific post here comparing actions, and not on any official specs, much less the personal experience of half the people complaining about it.
Me too, Theo. Spec schmecks. Who cares?

Fingers count. Specs don't.
Originally Posted by TheophilusCarter
The whole "OMG TEH CASIO PIVOT!!!" nonsense around here is tiresome, especially when it's no worse (and possibly a bit better than) Yamaha, but hardly anyone ever mentions that ... As far as I can tell, it's mostly based on one pseudo-scientific post here comparing actions, and not on any official specs, much less the personal experience of half the people complaining about it.

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Me too, Theo. Spec schmecks. Who cares?
Fingers count. Specs don't.

Without a doubt, the two best comments of the week!
I have just checked a recording of me playing Debussy´s Arabesque no.1 and I would have never said how often I play close to the fallboard. I won't say it is the standard position, because it is not. But if harmony is complex enough you find yourself quite often playing black keys with 4th and 5th digits, which forces to move your hand towards the fallboard. In a grand piano there is nothing wrong, keys are long enough (beyond the fallboard) and the hammers are far. In digitals well, it seems that it depends on the length of the pivot.

My guess is if you are used to short pivot and you are happy with it, your fingers will deal with it and feel comfortable. If you are coming from acoustics, you may feel it somehow limiting your ability to play with different expressions. It is always a question of habits.

In my case, I think I will remove Casio´s from my list or, at least, I will try them beforehand.
Originally Posted by DrGradus
I have just checked a recording of me playing Debussy´s Arabesque no.1 and I would have never said how often I play close to the fallboard. I won't say it is the standard position, because it is not. But if harmony is complex enough you find yourself quite often playing black keys with 4th and 5th digits, which forces to move your hand towards the fallboard. In a grand piano there is nothing wrong, keys are long enough (beyond the fallboard) and the hammers are far. In digitals well, it seems that it depends on the length of the pivot. My guess is if you are used to short pivot and you are happy with it, your fingers will deal with it and feel comfortable.

OK, I have just one more thing to say about this whole fallboard nonsense, and then I'm going back to playing my piano...

Sure, we all get that there are times when we are forced to play more toward the fallboard. ("toward", not "at") I am doubtful that Casio's Privia line is any harder to play closer to the fallboard than most any other DP is. Anyone who is playing "at" the fallboard is going about this whole piano playing thing all wrong.

As DrGradus states above, "you find yourself quite often playing black keys with 4th and 5th digits, which forces to move your hand towards the fallboard". "Towards" the fallboard, not "at".
Thanks, OscarRamsey. You are absolutely right.
Originally Posted by camperbc
Anyone who is playing "at" the fallboard is going about this whole piano playing thing all wrong.


Or haven't come across repertoire where it's unavoidable. It's not just about playing at the fallboard, but playing at the rear half of the key. The shorter the key, the greater the problem.

What has this got to do with Casio BTW?
Originally Posted by DrGradus

In my case, I think I will remove Casio´s from my list or, at least, I will try them beforehand.
Crossing them out is certainly your prerogative, and by all means try them personally. But in the budget range you're not going to find much that's radically better.
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Or haven't come across repertoire where it's unavoidable.

What has this got to do with Casio BTW?
For some it's apparently more unavoidable than others. It has to do with that notorious Casio "pivot point", which frankly I don't find to be that unusual.
Originally Posted by camperbc
Sure, we all get that there are times when we are forced to play more toward the fallboard. ("toward", not "at") I am doubtful that Casio's Privia line is any harder to play closer to the fallboard than most any other DP is. Anyone who is playing "at" the fallboard is going about this whole piano playing thing all wrong.
Exactly. As some idiom somewhere has it, it's looking for hair on the soap.
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
For some it's apparently more unavoidable than others.


Meow!
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
For some it's apparently more unavoidable than others.


Meow!

Maybe having 2-inch white keys would do the trick. Problem solved for all makes. That pivot point would be outta sight! grin
Originally Posted by TheophilusCarter
The whole "OMG TEH CASIO PIVOT!!!" nonsense around here is tiresome, especially when it's no worse (and possibly a bit better than) Yamaha, but hardly anyone ever mentions that ... As far as I can tell, it's mostly based on one pseudo-scientific post here comparing actions, and not on any official specs, much less the personal experience of half the people complaining about it.

Ahhh, that explains it. Maybe we need to set up some blind tests, like the Strad vs modern violin tests. It would be interesting to see the results.
Originally Posted by camperbc
As DrGradus states above, "you find yourself quite often playing black keys with 4th and 5th digits, which forces to move your hand towards the fallboard". "Towards" the fallboard, not "at".

To be fair, I never meant to say playing right at the fallboard, I doubt there is any reason to do so. I play as close to the opposite edge as I can (it adds more sensibility for dynamics), but some works makes you move towards the fallboard. In these situations I'd say I am often around halfway between key edge and the fallboard, but never beyond 2/3 of the key length. That's my personal technique and, of course, some people may play differently.
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Ahhh, that explains it. Maybe we need to set up some blind tests, like the Strad vs modern violin tests. It would be interesting to see the results.

Privia vs Steinway blind test? grin
Originally Posted by DrGradus
Originally Posted by camperbc
As DrGradus states above, "you find yourself quite often playing black keys with 4th and 5th digits, which forces to move your hand towards the fallboard". "Towards" the fallboard, not "at".

To be fair, I never meant to say playing right at the fallboard, I doubt there is any reason to do so. I play as close to the opposite edge as I can (it adds more sensibility for dynamics), but some works makes you move towards the fallboard. In these situations I'd say I am often around halfway between key edge and the fallboard, but never beyond 2/3 of the key length. That's my personal technique and, of course, some people may play differently.

Yes, this is why I quoted you... that we sometimes have to play more "towards the fallboard", rather than "at" it. There have been those who have complained about the difficulty of playing "at" the fallboard on a Casio. Go figure.
Originally Posted by DrGradus
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Ahhh, that explains it. Maybe we need to set up some blind tests, like the Strad vs modern violin tests. It would be interesting to see the results.

Privia vs Steinway blind test? grin

No, Casio vs Yamaha vs Kawai vs Roland vs whoever. I'd be willing to bet that knowledge of brand influences how the player feels about the quality of the instrument.
Originally Posted by TheophilusCarter
The whole "OMG TEH CASIO PIVOT!!!" nonsense around here is tiresome, especially when it's no worse (and possibly a bit better than) Yamaha, but hardly anyone ever mentions that ... As far as I can tell, it's mostly based on one pseudo-scientific post here comparing actions, and not on any official specs, much less the personal experience of half the people complaining about it.

Correct - all models from both Casio and Yamaha have crap pivot length until you get well above $2,000 - Clavinova CLP-675 and Celviano GP-310. Serious pianists wouldn't consider any models under those.

Roland should be releasing a new FP model in the next few months with their new longer pivot length in the sub-$2,000 price range.

I'm not sure about Kawai - is their MP11SE due for an upgrade next year? (It was released in 2017)
Originally Posted by Burkie
... all models from both Casio and Yamaha have crap pivot length until you get well above $2,000 - Clavinova CLP-675 and Celviano GP-310. Serious pianists wouldn't consider any models under those.

Well that's interesting... because I bought my DP for well under $2,000... and I consider myself a "serious pianist". (ARCT)
Originally Posted by camperbc
Originally Posted by Burkie
... all models from both Casio and Yamaha have crap pivot length until you get well above $2,000 - Clavinova CLP-675 and Celviano GP-310. Serious pianists wouldn't consider any models under those.

Well that's interesting... because I bought my DP for well under $2,000... and I consider myself a "serious pianist". (ARCT)

Note that I specified only Casio and Yamaha.
And also note that is for a new piano. Obviously you can pick up a great second hand / demo model Casio or Yamaha for less than $2,000.

What model did you buy?
Originally Posted by Burkie
Originally Posted by camperbc
Originally Posted by Burkie
... all models from both Casio and Yamaha have crap pivot length until you get well above $2,000 - Clavinova CLP-675 and Celviano GP-310. Serious pianists wouldn't consider any models under those.

Well that's interesting... because I bought my DP for well under $2,000... and I consider myself a "serious pianist". (ARCT)

Note that I specified only Casio and Yamaha.
And also note that is for a new piano. Obviously you can pick up a great second hand / demo model Casio or Yamaha for less than $2,000.

What model did you buy?

A new Privia PX-870... and this old pro loves it.
Originally Posted by Burkie
Correct - all models from both Casio and Yamaha have crap pivot length until you get well above $2,000 - Clavinova CLP-675 and Celviano GP-310. Serious pianists wouldn't consider any models under those.
Nothing personal, but that is *exactly* the attitude I dislike. (In plummy Thurston Howell III accent) "No serious pi-AH-nist would be caught DEAD playing such a monstrosity..." But then no serious pi-AH-nist would be caught dead playing ANY DP, including a $10,000 piano-shaped-object either, would they? *cough cough Avant Grand cough cough* See how that can turn out? I'm as serious as the average non-professional here and I do fine on the budget Casio. Is it perfect? No. None of them are.
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by Burkie
Correct - all models from both Casio and Yamaha have crap pivot length until you get well above $2,000 - Clavinova CLP-675 and Celviano GP-310. Serious pianists wouldn't consider any models under those.
Nothing personal, but that is *exactly* the attitude I dislike. (In plummy Thurston Howell III accent) "No serious pi-AH-nist would be caught DEAD playing such a monstrosity..." But then no serious pi-AH-nist would be caught dead playing ANY DP, including a $10,000 piano-shaped-object either, would they? *cough cough Avant Grand cough cough* See how that can turn out? I'm as serious as the average non-professional here and I do fine on the budget Casio. Is it perfect? No. None of them are.

I agree, you'd need the N3X for $16,000 (+ tax)...duh!
Originally Posted by Burkie
I agree, you'd need the N3X for $16,000 (+ tax)...duh!
No you need a real Steinway or Bechstein with real keys and strings and wood, not these expensive electronic toys...every serious pianist knows that, duh...
Why are people with short pivots so neurotic about what other people think?

grin grin grin
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Why are people with short pivots so neurotic about what other people think?

grin grin grin

I never gave it a thought until I saw "my pivot's bigger than yours, science says so" discussions on this forum. grin
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Why are people with short pivots so neurotic about what other people think?
grin grin grin

Why do people who are arrogant and petty have to be so rude on this forum?
Originally Posted by camperbc
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Why are people with short pivots so neurotic about what other people think?
grin grin grin

Why do people who are arrogant and petty have to be so rude on this forum?

Now now, being condescending is one of the perks that come with spending 5 figures on a digital piano. It says so right there in the manual, right under "now you, too, can have the biggest pivot on the discussion board!". grin
Originally Posted by camperbc
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Why are people with short pivots so neurotic about what other people think?
grin grin grin

Why do people who are arrogant and petty have to be so rude on this forum?


Yes. Why?
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Who plays that close to the fallboard anyway? I don't.


Some repertoire requires it.

I've never seen it in any of the standard rep that I've played. What are some examples?

Pretty much anything scored in a black key scale like Gb major or Db major is going to have significant sections that require “playing on the black keys” i.e. close to the fall board. It does not have to be virtuosic repertoire. Debussy’s The Girl with the Flaxen Hair would be one example. I’ve never been able to use Korg keyboards due my inability to play on the black keys on them.
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Pretty much anything scored in a black key scale like Gb major or Db major is going to have significant sections that require “playing on the black keys” ...
Ahhh, ok. Well I can play the black keys and the neighboring white ok. No pivot-envy. grin

Stop feeding the troll.

[Linked Image]
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by Burkie
I agree, you'd need the N3X for $16,000 (+ tax)...duh!
No you need a real Steinway or Bechstein with real keys and strings and wood, not these expensive electronic toys...every serious pianist knows that, duh...

The N3X doesn't have real keys?!
What are made out of?
How dare they charge $16,000+ and have FAKE keys... That's terrorism that is!
I can't find the key for my piano. Luckily I never locked it.
Originally Posted by MacMacMac

Stop feeding the troll.

The words "troll" and "bot" have got to be among the most overused/misused ever.
Originally Posted by Burkie
The N3X doesn't have real keys?!
What are made out of?
How dare they charge $16,000+ and have FAKE keys... That's terrorism that is!
No, it's an imitation piano.
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Why are people with short pivots so neurotic about what other people think?

grin grin grin

Pivot envy is a thing smile
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by Burkie
The N3X doesn't have real keys?!
What are made out of?
How dare they charge $16,000+ and have FAKE keys... That's terrorism that is!
No, it's an imitation piano.

What are these imitation keys made out of?
Originally Posted by Burkie
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Why are people with short pivots so neurotic about what other people think?

grin grin grin

Pivot envy is a thing smile

Apparently so is pivot delusion. grin
Originally Posted by MacMacMac

Stop feeding the troll.

[Linked Image]

Just the one eh?!
Originally Posted by Burkie
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by Burkie
The N3X doesn't have real keys?!
What are made out of?
How dare they charge $16,000+ and have FAKE keys... That's terrorism that is!
No, it's an imitation piano.

What are these imitation keys made out of?

I don't know, but would Murray Perahia give a recital using one?
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by Burkie
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by Burkie
The N3X doesn't have real keys?!
What are made out of?
How dare they charge $16,000+ and have FAKE keys... That's terrorism that is!
No, it's an imitation piano.

What are these imitation keys made out of?

I don't know, but would Murray Perahia give a recital using one?

If you don't know what they are made out of then how do you know they are not real?
Originally Posted by Burkie
If you don't know what they are made out of then how do you know they are not real?
That didn't answer my question. Whether the keys are ivory and ebony, if they're not guiding hammers that strike actual strings stretched over an actual soundboard, it's a simulation piano, whether it's my $900 Casio or a $16k one.
^ Having said that though, you know I think Glenn Gould would be pretty enthusiastic about digital pianos.
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by Burkie
If you don't know what they are made out of then how do you know they are not real?
That didn't answer my question. Whether the keys are ivory and ebony, if they're not guiding hammers that strike actual strings stretched over an actual soundboard, it's a simulation piano, whether it's my $900 Casio or a $16k one.

You specifically stated that the keys are not real.
Where is your evidence?! Or were you shooting from the hip?
Originally Posted by Burkie
You specifically stated that the keys are not real.
Where is your evidence?! Or were you shooting from the hip?
A piano key is a lever that operates a hammer that strikes a taught string -- or group of strings -- that produce(s) a tone. There's my evidence. A digital piano key -- even a hybrid piano key -- is a simulation of that.
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Why are people with short pivots so neurotic about what other people think?

grin grin grin

I don't remember anyone coming to my rescue so you're on your own here pal! whistle Just remember we don't want to scare away the newbies...
I find it disturbing how some people get really angry when others don't like their piano action.

I don't like the feeling of short keys when playing some pieces. I have a Kawai MP10, but I couldn't get along the the short keys so I bought a Roland FP90. Some people hate the Roland actions, and really DETEST the sound. I don't take other people's choice of piano as some kind of personal attack.

There are digitals with better actions than mine. That's just the way it is.
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by Burkie
You specifically stated that the keys are not real.
Where is your evidence?! Or were you shooting from the hip?
A piano key is a lever that operates a hammer that strikes a taught string -- or group of strings -- that produce(s) a tone. There's my evidence. A digital piano key -- even a hybrid piano key -- is a simulation of that.

Stop conflating keys and hammers. They're two different parts.
We're still waiting for your evidence that the Yamaha N3X has fake keys.
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
However, in this case, akc42 said he owned the Casio AP-470. The Casio AP-470 uses the Tri-sensor Scaled Hammer Action Keyboard II, the identical action as is in the Casio PX-870. So with regard to the action at least, his comments are no longer uninformed.
Well I don't take any of it personally; I'm happy with the PX 870 while recognizing that, like everything else, it's not perfect. However, one recurring gripe about the Casio is its pivot point and inability to play close to the fallboard. 1. I really don't notice that problem and 2. Who plays that close to the fallboard anyway? I don't.


It was probably my own failings, but I was needing it in the first movement of the Moonlight Sonata. Its two years ago now, and I have not played the piece in a while - but in order to reach all the notes I had to position my hand so that some fingers ended up near the fallboard.
Originally Posted by Burkie

Stop conflating keys and hammers. They're two different parts.
We're still waiting for your evidence that the Yamaha N3X has fake keys.

Idiotic. The hammers are the keys' reason for being there in the first place. If the key is not manipulating a hammer to strike strings to produce a tone, it's not a plain old "actual" piano. I'd say if it has electrical components at all it's about as much a piano as an electric violin is an Amati or a Yamaha silent guitar is a Daniel Friederich. Which is not to say that those aren't enjoyable to have and play.
Originally Posted by johnstaf
I find it disturbing how some people get really angry when others don't like their piano action.
I couldn't care less if people like Casio actions, or Roland. I'm happy with what I've got. What's irksome is to have people make negative pronouncements on primarily Casios when they obviously haven't played any for any length of time, other than maybe playing a slab seven or eight years ago. It's really not irksome, it's more amusing. You'll notice I've never said anything negative about Yamaha or Kawai or Roland. I don't have any actual, lengthy experience in playing any of those. It's disturbing that so many on the forum seem to have a kind of need to justify spending an extra thousand dollars or so by telling themselves and others that at least it's not that Casio crap with its, I dunno, horribly limiting "pivot point". grin
If I may join in late, the answer to the OP question is NO. crazy
^ I'll clarify: the hammers are the keys' reason for being there on a real piano. A digital piano has keys, but they're not the same...which is why you have to simulate that hammer action somehow. And yeah, a pipe organ has pipe organ keys that act in a pipe organ key way. A Hammond organ does too. A Hammond organ isn't a "real" organ either.
Originally Posted by spanishbuddha
If I may join in late, the answer to the OP question is NO. crazy

I disagree. The budget digital that I have comes close to many acoustics that I've played. In fact I'd say it's better than most uprights I've played. The things you won't get out of the box are the bigness of sound and the feelings of resonance going through you, and those are pretty big things. It comes down to whether "acoustic" means any acoustic piano, or one that's top of the line.
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
.. at least it's not that Casio crap with its, I dunno, horribly limiting "pivot point". grin

Who claimed that? I never singled out Casio.
Originally Posted by Burkie
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
.. at least it's not that Casio crap with its, I dunno, horribly limiting "pivot point". grin

Who claimed that? I never singled out Casio.

I didn't say you did. The sentiment is common enough.
I had a Casio AP-470 for 8 months, and in the end felt that both the action with its short pivot and the sound let it down. I am writing from a point of view of my own personal experience.

Why people assume that comments are made from others little personal experience I don't know.
Originally Posted by johnstaf

Or haven't come across repertoire where it's unavoidable. It's not just about playing at the fallboard, but playing at the rear half of the key. The shorter the key, the greater the problem.

What has this got to do with Casio BTW?


In their lower range, Casio recently went from short pivot to even shorter pivot, to make their slabs even more portable I guess. I tried the PX-560 vs PX-S1000/3000 in a store and the new keys don't feel better to me. YMMV and I'm sure serious pianists may not have issues living with keys like that, but I think Kawai and Roland keys in this price range feel better.
Living Pianos https://livingpianos.com/piano-facts/do-pianists-scratch-the-fallboard-on-a-piano/ and fallboard damage.
AT Piano Lessons London by WKMTWKMT we use Kawai digitals and they are absolutely stunning. At the moment we have a CA 48 a CA 15 a CA 67 and a 98.

No other brand has provided us with the best results.
Let's discuss without getting nasty. No matter what you buy, it's possible someone might not like the brand. Who cares. If you like it that's all that matters. Is it really worth being unkind to defend a brand?
It's amazing that there are far more comments of people fighting each other to defend subjective assessments than anything else. Maybe it is because I am a newbie, but I don't understand what is going on here.
Originally Posted by DrGradus
It's amazing that there are far more comments of people fighting each other to defend subjective assessments than anything else. Maybe it is because I am a newbie, but I don't understand what is going on here.

The interpersonal dynamics when people can hide behind online personas. I'm guilty of it myself. These avatars/forum handles allow one to be more forward that you would be in a face to face conversation. Is that good? Often it is bad.
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
The interpersonal dynamics when people can hide behind online personas. I'm guilty of it myself. These avatars/forum handles allow one to be more forward that you would be in a face to face conversation. Is that good? Often it is bad.

I thought this is about piano, music and art. I didn't know I was posting on Twitter instead.
Originally Posted by DrGradus
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
The interpersonal dynamics when people can hide behind online personas. I'm guilty of it myself. These avatars/forum handles allow one to be more forward that you would be in a face to face conversation. Is that good? Often it is bad.
I thought this is about piano, music and art. I didn't know I was posting on Twitter instead.

It is. HUMAN piano, HUMAN music, HUMAN art. Where Homo sapiens are involved, interpersonal dynamics comes into play. Homo sapiens are complex as 5000 yrs of recorded history has shown.
Originally Posted by DrGradus
It's amazing that there are far more comments of people fighting each other to defend subjective assessments than anything else. Maybe it is because I am a newbie, but I don't understand what is going on here.

It happens when subjective assessments are presented as unassailable fact, and it happens on just about any forum dedicated to musical instruments associated with classical music. No "serious" musician would use this instrument, even for practice; no serious musician would use these strings or that edition or that rosin or a piano made by that company; this company's products are the best/worst; you must hold your hands this way or that way and sit like this or that, you must have a flute that's made out of silver/gold/platinum with French keys and a B-foot, or you're hopeless; no self-respecting musician would be caught dead with a plastic recorder; if you listen to CDs instead of getting your music via streaming you're a hopeless Luddite, and on and on and on and on. After a while all the fussiness gets tiresome.
Originally Posted by DrGradus
It's amazing that there are far more comments of people fighting each other to defend subjective assessments than anything else. Maybe it is because I am a newbie, but I don't understand what is going on here.

Pivot length (along with static and dynamic key weightings) is the most objective assessment of any piano - if you can measure it then it's not subjective. Which subjective assessment are you referring to?

Why do you think Casio, Yamaha, Roland, Kawai, and Nord all put longer pivot length keys into their higher end pianos. Because it's proven to be advantageous by physics - it's not subjective.
Originally Posted by Burkie
Originally Posted by DrGradus
It's amazing that there are far more comments of people fighting each other to defend subjective assessments than anything else. Maybe it is because I am a newbie, but I don't understand what is going on here.

Pivot length (along with static and dynamic key weightings) is the most objective assessment of any piano - if you can measure it then it's not subjective. Which subjective assessment are you referring to?
Numbers are objective, but I haven't seen any definitive table of comparative pivot points or key length with all other parameters. All I see is this "feels" this way and that "feels" that way. Data is (or, are) objective, but how that feels under different fingers is often entirely subjective, especially when differences are measured in millimeters.
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by Burkie
Originally Posted by DrGradus
It's amazing that there are far more comments of people fighting each other to defend subjective assessments than anything else. Maybe it is because I am a newbie, but I don't understand what is going on here.

Pivot length (along with static and dynamic key weightings) is the most objective assessment of any piano - if you can measure it then it's not subjective. Which subjective assessment are you referring to?
Numbers are objective, but I haven't seen any definitive table of comparative pivot points or key length with all other parameters. All I see is this "feels" this way and that "feels" that way. Data is objective, but how that feels under different fingers is often entirely subjective, especially when measure in millimeters.

Have you tried searching using Google? There are many discussion on this forum showing exact pivot lengths.

I myself invented a device that can measure it - let me know which models you want compared and I'll happily measure pivot length, key weightings across the whole piano, and the dynamic key weightings.

These are 3 of the 4 objective measures I recommend all purchasers be aware of.

The 4th objective measure is key surface grip (friction) - very important for many pianists whose fingers sweat.

I agree that sound and aesthetics are entirely subjective - that's why I always tell prospective buyers to listen to each instrument for themselves.
Originally Posted by Burkie
Have you tried searching using Google? There are many discussion on this forum showing exact lengths.
Why, it never occurred to me! Of course I have and in the process found the usual non-conclusive thread here with the usual posturing and I know it's so because I know it's so. It's still subjective, like "Roland rules the field in that price range" opinion.
Originally Posted by Burkie
I myself invented a device that can measure it - let me know which models you want compared and I'll happily measure pivot length, key weightings across the whole piano, and the dynamic key weightings.
Which wouldn't tell me a thing unless I actually played this or that keyboard. That's the point.
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by Burkie
I myself invented a device that can measure it - let me know which models you want compared and I'll happily measure pivot length, key weightings across the whole piano, and the dynamic key weightings.
Which wouldn't tell me a thing unless I actually played this or that keyboard. That's the point.

And where have I ever implied that you or anyone should purchase any piano without playing them first? I have always advised people to play them on several occasions, not just once, before purchasing. Why didn't you bother to verify that before shooting from the hip?

You need to be a lot more careful with your assumptions.
"Shooting from the hip". Give me a break. You're the one saying there's some objective standard and now you retreat.
Tell ya what...take care and go have fun with your pivot point.
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by DrGradus
It's amazing that there are far more comments of people fighting each other to defend subjective assessments than anything else. Maybe it is because I am a newbie, but I don't understand what is going on here.

It happens when subjective assessments are presented as unassailable fact, and it happens on just about any forum dedicated to musical instruments associated with classical music. No "serious" musician would use this instrument, even for practice; no serious musician would use these strings or that edition or that rosin or a piano made by that company; this company's products are the best/worst; you must hold your hands this way or that way and sit like this or that, you must have a flute that's made out of silver/gold/platinum with French keys and a B-foot, or you're hopeless; no self-respecting musician would be caught dead with a plastic recorder; if you listen to CDs instead of getting your music via streaming you're a hopeless Luddite, and on and on and on and on. After a while all the fussiness gets tiresome.


have to disagree with your assertion that just about every music forum is like this. I don't see these kind of statements in any ukulele/clarinet/toy piano/celesta/glockenspiel/bass/music theory forum I participate in. I have only seen it in some piano, production, synth, and guitar forums. I understand some people have the perspective of a working/professional concert soloist, but even the professionals in my first list of forum types aren't bull headed and think their opinion is the only right one. Sadly, the ivory tower is real here.

I feel you on the comment that the fussiness gets tiresome. People should focus on the positive that comes with fostering a love of everyone making/learning music without regard to their finances, choice of instrument, or skill level. I was previously guilty of this by suggesting new uke players spend at least 100 dollars for an instrument. I now realize that some people can only afford a 50 dollar instrument, that some people prefer the sound of a plastic instrument, need to have a more durable instrument for outdoor/car playing, or fell in love with the looks of a Kala Dolphin. Realistically, you will get better, play more, and find more joy when playing the instrument that you enjoy playing.

Sorry for fanning the flames, but I had to vent somewhere due to my recent unfavorable interactions with a few of the people in this forum. It hasn't turned me off from loving the instrument, but has made me less likely to participate here and that disappoints me. I love playing music and want to discuss this with like-minded people without things getting heated..
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
"Shooting from the hip". Give me a break. You're the one saying there's some objective standard and now you retreat.

Where exactly have I retreated? Your eyes are deceiving you again - I recommend you take that onboard.
The change in mechanical advantage across the playable area of the key in all piano actions depends on the length of the key between the outermost point and where it pivots. This applies to all piano actions, and cannot be dependent on any other aspect of the key action design. This is a physical law that cannot be circumvented.

If someone doesn't care about it, that's another matter, but it's an incontrovertible fact.
Originally Posted by HarmonySmurf
have to disagree with your assertion that just about every music forum is like this. I don't see these kind of statements in any ukulele/clarinet/toy piano/celesta/glockenspiel/bass/music theory forum I participate in. I have only seen it in some piano, production, synth, and guitar forums


That‘s really the great thing of a uke compared to the piano: it is far more unassuming. There are no serious uke players. Simply because it‘s the nature of the instrument. Even people like Jake Shimabukuro will probably say: just grab a uke and have fun.

A little OT: I have several ukes. one of them a solid body mahagony concert size. One of them a 20€ super cheapy pink soprano. I almost always play my 20€ pink uke simply because I have it always laying around somewhere. I have the mahagony somewhere out of reach because I don‘t want my kids (3 and 4 years old) to mess with it. But of course it sounds better, Pretty much for the same reason I also almost exclusively play my plastic recorders. But when it comes to recorders, there are also lots of „real wood snobs“.
Originally Posted by johnstaf


If someone doesn't care about it, that's another matter, but it's an incontrovertible fact.
If it doesn't bother this player but this other player finds it unplayable, then it means that the effect of that incontrovertible physical fact is subjective.
Originally Posted by HarmonySmurf
have to disagree with your assertion that just about every music forum is like this. I don't see these kind of statements in any ukulele/clarinet/toy piano/celesta/glockenspiel/bass/music theory forum I participate in. I have only seen it in some piano, production, synth, and guitar forums. I understand some people have the perspective of a working/professional concert soloist, but even the professionals in my first list of forum types aren't bull headed and think their opinion is the only right one. Sadly, the ivory tower is real here.
I'll have to say also the cello discussion groups I've participated in aren't all that bad. Flute and guitar, yes. They can be bad. It's more often than not a desire for status. My observation is that the actual pros are less hung up on gear than amateurs. As for uke, glockenspiel, clarinet, celesta, it would probably be a toss up, but I imagine with clarinet especially there'd be debates over grenadilla vs boxwood and don't you dare mention those ghastly things made from ABS...and what's the keywork on yours made of? What about reeds?
Originally Posted by Gretel
Pretty much for the same reason I also almost exclusively play my plastic recorders. But when it comes to recorders, there are also lots of „real wood snobs“.
grin grin grin I hear you. There are even snobs within the plastic and wood factions. "The only decent plastic ones are Yamahas..." "Well I like my Aulos..." "Aulos is unplayable in the upper register..." grin And then there are the Moeck vs Kung vs Mollenhauer vs the Yamaha woods and of course this one only has those made by Philippe Bolton...it never ends. grin
There are facts:
- The pivot length is a measurable fact.
- Casio happens to have a short pivot just like Yamaha GHS, Fatar TP/100 and others.
- People complain about those too.
- The consistency of the playing feel along the piano key is proportional to the pivot length and it alone say the laws of physics.

Then there are "subjective assessments" trying to fight these facts.

"I don't find it to be a problem" is an okay statement. Good for you. You can comfortably play on keys with short pivot.

But that doesn't make the measurable facts and laws of physics to go away.

smile
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
There are facts:
- The pivot length is a measurable fact.
- Casio happens to have a short pivot just like Yamaha GHS, Fatar TP/100 and others.
- People complain about those too.
- The consistency of the playing feel along the piano key is proportional to the pivot length and it alone say the laws of physics.

Then there are "subjective assessments" trying to fight these facts.

"I don't find it to be a problem" is an okay statement. Good for you. You can comfortably play on keys with short pivot.

But that doesn't make the measurable facts and laws of physics to go away.

smile

Yes, well, I must repent then and admit that I'm playing a crap keyboard. Maybe someday I'll go crazy and buy an N1X with an acceptable pivot point and join the cool kids. I've seen the light. grin
Originally Posted by HarmonySmurf
I had to vent somewhere due to my recent unfavorable interactions with a few of the people in this forum. It hasn't turned me off from loving the instrument, but has made me less likely to participate here and that disappoints me. I love playing music and want to discuss this with like-minded people without things getting heated..
I've seen a lot of comments like that here.
but I imagine with clarinet especially there'd be debates over grenadilla vs boxwood and don't you dare mention those ghastly things made from ABS...and what's the keywork on yours made of? What about reeds?


oh most definitely. the pickiest shape their own reeds. laugh
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen

Yes, well, I must repent then and admit that I'm playing a crap keyboard. Maybe someday I'll go crazy and buy an N1X with an acceptable pivot point and join the cool kids. I've seen the light. grin


That's the first time I've seen your piano model dismissed as crap, even as a joke. grin
Originally Posted by HarmonySmurf
but I imagine with clarinet especially there'd be debates over grenadilla vs boxwood and don't you dare mention those ghastly things made from ABS...and what's the keywork on yours made of? What about reeds?


oh most definitely. the pickiest shape their own reeds. laugh

Absolutely, oboists even more so. Unfortunately I'd be one of those schmucks who buys them ready made, and so no doubt there would physics lectures on how that's ...just not done. grin
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Numbers are objective, but I haven't seen any definitive table of comparative pivot points or key length with all other parameters.


There has been several discussions here trying to collect the numbers. This one I was able to find easily: http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2852613/key-pivot-length.html

There has been more and with comparison pictures.

Typically we don't get any numbers from manufacturers.
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo

- Casio happens to have a short pivot just like Yamaha GHS, Fatar TP/100 and others

"I don't find it to be a problem" is an okay statement. Good for you. You can comfortably play on keys with short pivot.
But that doesn't make the measurable facts and laws of physics to go away.
smile


But any pianist would also concede that the currently-being-maligned Casio, Yamaha GHS, and Fatar TP100 actions feel nothing alike, even if they share a similarly short pivot length. This is the danger of using one parameter alone to define whether a piano is good or not. It’s like acoustic piano marketing from 40 years ago, with crafty salespeople grabbing their Ancott guides and proclaiming the length of their #1 bass string longest for a given size of piano. Therefore, their piano was obviously superior.

As you rightly mention, physics, along with packaging and cost are why there’s no free lunch here. People often ask for contradictory things: “I want an action that feels just like an acoustic grand piano and will last 20 years. But it needs to weigh less than 30 pounds, take up a tiny footprint in the room, the action must be silent, and I have a budget of $800”...
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
There has been more and with comparison pictures.


Ha! The one I linked had links to some other pivot-point-obsession discussions:
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2734488/all/naked-pics-of-grandtouch-action.html
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2688852/mp11-grand-feel-key-and-pivot-lengths.html
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/1761142/1.html
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2711168/kawai-novus-nv10-hands-on.html
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/1760698.html
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2337383/Roland_PHA_vs_lightweight_acti.html

I won't say anything more in this discussion. wink

...except there are some engineers and other technically minded people here who like details, so such discussions just can't be avoided. It's human nature. Or engineer nature.

And what was that analogy between arguing with an engineer and wrestling in mud with a pig?

(I can say that because I'm an engineer myself. Engineers FTW! Or WTF, if you prefer that.)
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
As you rightly mention, physics, along with packaging and cost are why there’s no free lunch here. People often ask for contradictory things: “I want an action that feels just like an acoustic grand piano and will last 20 years. But it needs to weigh less than 30 pounds, take up a tiny footprint in the room, the action must be silent, and I have a budget of $800”...


Spot on!
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
There has been several discussions here trying to collect the numbers. This one I was able to find easily: http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2852613/key-pivot-length.html
Yes, I saw that one, and it didn't tell me all that much. I believe you posted a photo example comment there using a Casio model that dates from 2008.
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
But any pianist would also concede that the currently-being-maligned Casio, Yamaha GHS, and Fatar TP100 actions feel nothing alike, even if they share a similarly short pivot length. This is the danger of using one parameter alone to define whether a piano is good or not. ...
Well yes, exactly. Those who find this or that action to be good or bad are free to buy whatever good, playable one they like and can afford. Opinions, including those on relative value, though will vary.
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo

Then there are "subjective assessments" trying to fight these facts.
By the way, it's not "fighting" against facts. It's fighting against the notion that any person of discernment is going to view and experience this or that fact the same way you do.
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
I believe you posted a photo example comment there using a Casio model that dates from 2008.


Casio's key/pivot length hasn't changed since.

Except for the very latest "S" models where they made the keys even shorter.
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
There are facts:
- The pivot length is a measurable fact.
- Casio happens to have a short pivot just like Yamaha GHS, Fatar TP/100 and others.
- People complain about those too.
- The consistency of the playing feel along the piano key is proportional to the pivot length and it alone say the laws of physics.

Then there are "subjective assessments" trying to fight these facts.

"I don't find it to be a problem" is an okay statement. Good for you. You can comfortably play on keys with short pivot.

But that doesn't make the measurable facts and laws of physics to go away.

smile


I can comfortably play on a short-pivot synth action, but I won't practice or perform classical piano repertoire on it.

Longer keys balanced on pins are an inherent feature of a proper piano action just as the hammers attached to them are. All manufacturers figured out, that hammers are indeed a required feature in any digital piano action, but some still like to pretend that sufficient pivot length isn't.

For me it is. Going below a certain minimum set by upright pianos means the action loses certain piano-like properties in the same way as replacing the hammers with springs would. It might still be a super-compact, lightweight keyboard action, but it's not piano-like anymore - despite having hammer weights.

Note that an instrument doesn't need to have actual pins, as we can't see those. But a certain key dip all the way to the fallboard is a minimum requirement in my book.
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
I believe you posted a photo example comment there using a Casio model that dates from 2008.


Casio's key/pivot length hasn't changed since.

Except for the very latest "S" models where they made the keys even shorter.

Not saying that it has, but whats your source?
The vast majority of my playing is classical, at an advanced level. I can manage this just fine on my Casio, thank-you. In fact, I find playing classical music on my PX-870 every bit as natural/comfortable as if I were playing a "real" piano.

So, I performed my own little unscientific test this afternoon. I deliberately played quite close to the fallboard, and sure enough, I was able to do so with ease. Next, I tried playing right up against the fallboard... and was still able to do so, though not as comfortably. But it still worked for me. I am doubtful that it would feel any more natural/comfortable on an acoustic. Then again, I can't imagine anyone having to, or wanting to, play in this manner; its just not how it's done.

I'm not exactly what one would call a young, healthy guy. I am pushing sixty, and have an irreparably crushed upper spine, (C1 through C6) which keeps me bedridden for approx 20 hours/day. My spinal troubles have also caused permanent nerve damage to both hands. I also suffer from advanced Rheumatoid Arthritis in my fingers, wrists and elbows, and I have severe PMR (Polymyalgia Rheumatica) in both shoulders and both hips. And don't even get me started on my off-the-scale, ever-present RLS and IBS! So the way I see it, if a pianist in my, shall we say, less-than-stellar condition can easily play close to the fallboard on a lowly Casio... well... pretty much anyone with a pulse should be able to do the same.

So really, what is the point then, of a long, particularly nasty thread consisting mainly of bickering/fighting over this huge issue of an apparently short pivot length on Casio and Yamaha DPs? Sorry, I just don't see what all the fuss is about.
Lowly? Why must this topic always reframed as some sort of snobbery issue?
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Lowly? Why must this topic always reframed as some sort of snobbery issue?

Now really, how on earth did I predict that you would be the first person to reply to my post?
Was my question unreasonable in some way?
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Was my question unreasonable in some way?


Haha, not really. But you're remarkably predictable. Well, either that or I'm some kind of clairvoyant... Interesting too, that you mention snobbery.
You're the one who referred to your piano as lowly.
BTW I really hope you can get some help for your spine. That must be dreadful. I thought I was bad having a bit of backspin when I play too long...
Originally Posted by johnstaf
BTW I really hope you can get some help for your spine. That must be dreadful. I thought I was bad having a bit of backspin when I play too long...

johnstaf, I wrote out a smart-@ss reply and immediately deleted it, as I just couldn't bring myself to be nasty, it's not who I am. And thank God I did delete it right away, because I then saw your next post and I suddenly realized that you're just a regular, nice fellow like most everyone else on here. Now I feel like such an @ss. Anyway, I thank you for your concern about my health. It is what it is, it can't be fixed, but I try my best to live each day to the fullest. Thanks again for your kind comment; much appreciated!
We can all be friends and still disagree! Just like any family!
Originally Posted by johnstaf
We can all be friends and still disagree! Just like any family!

Haha, you said it! Now I just wish I could delete my previous couple of posts as well...
A lot us wish we could go back and change posts, including me. I don't know why we can only edit for a couple of minutes.
Originally Posted by johnstaf
A lot us wish we could go back and change posts, including me. I don't know why we can only edit for a couple of minutes.


Yeah, I'm not sure either. I would bet that many of us on here have said things in the heat of the moment from the comfort of our homes that we wish we could delete, only then it's too late. Anyhow, I'm going to make it my goal, moving forward, to be the best person that I can be, and to always make an effort to be more respectful to others, whether in agreement or not. I dislike conflict of any kind, even on the internet with people I've never even met.
Originally Posted by camperbc

So, I performed my own little unscientific test this afternoon. I deliberately played quite close to the fallboard, and sure enough, I was able to do so with ease.
Same here. I'm puzzled as to what that specific problem is. Now is the Casio perfect? Of course not. The most disappointing thing to me are the internal speakers (ironically, since you'd think that's an area Casio would excel in). Is the action equal to a concert grand? No. But as I said it's at least as good as any upright I've played, and for my purposes and at that price that's more than good enough.
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by Burkie

Stop conflating keys and hammers. They're two different parts.
We're still waiting for your evidence that the Yamaha N3X has fake keys.

Idiotic. The hammers are the keys' reason for being there in the first place. If the key is not manipulating a hammer to strike strings to produce a tone, it's not a plain old "actual" piano.


Ok, so since you refuse to verify your own wild claim (that the Yamaha N3X has fake keys) I have done it for you.

The Yamaha N3X uses a real piano action with the same wooden keys as they use in their acoustic grand pianos:
https://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical_instruments/pianos/avantgrand/n3x/features.html

'the all-important key action, which the AvantGrand series has inherited from Yamaha’s esteemed concert grand pianos'
Originally Posted by Burkie
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by Burkie

Stop conflating keys and hammers. They're two different parts.
We're still waiting for your evidence that the Yamaha N3X has fake keys.

Idiotic. The hammers are the keys' reason for being there in the first place. If the key is not manipulating a hammer to strike strings to produce a tone, it's not a plain old "actual" piano.


Ok, so since you refuse to verify your own wild claims I have done it for you.

The Yamaha N3X uses a real piano action with the same wooden keys as they do in their acoustic grand pianos:
https://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical_instruments/pianos/avantgrand/n3x/features.html

'the all-important key action, which the AvantGrand series has inherited from Yamaha’s esteemed concert grand pianos'

But. It's. Still. Not. A. Grand. Piano.
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Not saying that it [Casio's pivot length] has [changed], but whats your source?


We can find photos like e.g. these PX-330 dismantling photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/timsphotographs/sets/72157632641890363/with/8427512829/

(E.g. by browsing https://www.casiomusicforums.com/ if it's okay to mention a fellow forum here.)

Then we can also have a look at spare parts and see that similar white keys go into everything between PX-x00 and PX-x35 series and then another kind into everything between PX-x50 and PXx70 series.

So my PX-800 photo is valid at least up to x35 models. (But Casio added the third sensor in x30 so the complete action is a little different.)

And a picture of e.g. a x60 series key also represents your PX-870.

Casio added the fake ivory and ebony finishes in the x50 series, so that might be the only difference between the keys. At least their dimensions look similar:

https://www.pacparts.com/part.cfm?sku=91087101323

https://www.pacparts.com/part.cfm?sku=91087104829

We also have this drawing from Casio confirming the dimensions of the x60 series (and the CDP-S and PX-S series):

[Linked Image]
OK, well good stuff, clothearednincompo. But this is puzzling:
Quote
Casio added the fake ivory and ebony finishes...
You mean like everybody else's fake ebony and ivory finishes? Oh, I forgot. Sometimes they're "textured keys" or whatnot, depending on the price and maker.
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
You mean like everybody else's fake ebony and ivory finishes?


Yes, exactly.

Everybody uses fake ivory instead of real. The ebony of course could be real in case of wooden black keys. But in plastic keys any ivory or ebony is fake regardless of the brand and the price.

Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Oh, I forgot. Sometimes they're "textured keys" or whatnot, depending on the price and maker.


Yes they are "textured keys" and they attempt to resemble ivory and ebony, so they are "fake ivory" and "fake ebony". I don't think Casio has any BrandName(TM) for their key surface, so it's just "fake ivory".
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
You mean like everybody else's fake ebony and ivory finishes?


Yes, exactly.

Everybody uses fake ivory instead of real. The ebony of course could be real in case of wooden black keys. But in plastic keys any ivory or ebony is fake regardless of the brand and the price.

Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Oh, I forgot. Sometimes they're "textured keys" or whatnot, depending on the price and maker.


Yes they are "textured keys" and they attempt to resemble ivory and ebony, so they are "fake ivory" and "fake ebony". I don't think Casio has any BrandName(TM) for their key surface, so it's just "fake ivory".


Er, excuse me. Synthetic Ivory, if you please!
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
]You mean like everybody else's fake ebony and ivory finishes? Oh, I forgot. Sometimes they're "textured keys" or whatnot, depending on the price and maker.


Fake ivory is good. Steinway uses plain white plastic, which some people don't really like as it can get slippery.

None of the textured finishes feel like real ivory. I think they might be an improvement in many ways. Real ivory feels "cool", but some people don't like the texture.


Originally Posted by peterws
Er, excuse me. Synthetic Ivory, if you please!


Is that an actual name used by Casio?

If not, then "synthetic ivory" would be ivory grown in a lab instead of being grown by elephants.

Casio keytops are just part of the key itself and made of plastic. Not any kind of ivory, natural or synthetic.
Regardless of what anyone wants to call them, I really like the texture of the Casio keys. I have pretty sweaty fingers, and I much prefer this texture over the smoother keys of various acoustics I have played. I'm curious... do all of the newer Casio models have this same texture?
Originally Posted by camperbc
Regardless of what anyone wants to call them, I really like the texture of the Casio keys. I have pretty sweaty fingers, and I much prefer this texture over the smoother keys of various acoustics I have played. I'm curious... do all of the newer Casio models have this same texture?

The Casio Celviano models (GP-300 / GP-400 / GP-500) have the slipperiest keys I have ever played on. Not very suitable for sweaty fingers. Which is unfortunate, as everything else about them is totally amazing.
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by Burkie
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by Burkie

Stop conflating keys and hammers. They're two different parts.
We're still waiting for your evidence that the Yamaha N3X has fake keys.

Idiotic. The hammers are the keys' reason for being there in the first place. If the key is not manipulating a hammer to strike strings to produce a tone, it's not a plain old "actual" piano.


Ok, so since you refuse to verify your own wild claims I have done it for you.

The Yamaha N3X uses a real piano action with the same wooden keys as they do in their acoustic grand pianos:
https://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical_instruments/pianos/avantgrand/n3x/features.html

'the all-important key action, which the AvantGrand series has inherited from Yamaha’s esteemed concert grand pianos'

But. It's. Still. Not. A. Grand. Piano.

You were specifically referring to its keys and action.

It's better than most acoustic grand pianos as it doesn't require frequent tuning.

You're on the wrong forum if you're going to try and claim acoustic pianos are superior!
Originally Posted by Burkie
You were specifically referring to its keys and action.

It's better than most acoustic grand pianos as it doesn't require frequent tuning.

You're on the wrong forum if you're going to try and claim acoustic pianos are superior!
No, a digital piano that doesn't require frequent tuning is more *convenient*. A digital piano is to a quality concert acoustic as an electric cello is to a Goffriller. You can put $400 strings on that thing but it's still not going to be a cello. Same with electric violins or the Yamaha silent guitar.
Originally Posted by camperbc
Regardless of what anyone wants to call them, I really like the texture of the Casio keys. I have pretty sweaty fingers, and I much prefer this texture over the smoother keys of various acoustics I have played. I'm curious... do all of the newer Casio models have this same texture?


Yes, I believe so.
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
[quote=Burkie] A digital piano is to a quality concert acoustic as an electric cello is to a Goffriller. You can put $400 strings on that thing but it's still not going to be a cello. Same with electric violins or the Yamaha silent guitar.

Yes a different instrument with its own merits and capabilities. Both the electric cello and digital pianos are used with ever increasing use in contemporary live performances.
Originally Posted by spanishbuddha
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
[quote=Burkie] A digital piano is to a quality concert acoustic as an electric cello is to a Goffriller. You can put $400 strings on that thing but it's still not going to be a cello. Same with electric violins or the Yamaha silent guitar.

Yes a different instrument with its own merits and capabilities. Both the electric cello and digital pianos are used with ever increasing use in contemporary live performances.

Yeah, I agree. I'm not necessarily denigrating digitals. For me they're more practical and I enjoy practicing even on my relatively inexpensive one, and I'm sure the higher end models have a lot more to offer as well (I just don't feel I need that right now). And I'm sure students can learn technique on a digital with an acceptable action. I'm just saying that an acoustic action is what it is, and a digital's is a simulation. That doesn't mean that DPs, electric cellos or Yamaha silent guitars aren't fun, interesting and beneficial to have and play.
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