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Posted By: Gary001 K300 ATX3 - 10/20/19 12:46 PM
I'm planning to make a trip to a couple of local Piano stores to try out a few different uprights with a view to upgrading from my current digital piano (Casio PX-720). I've only just started researching options so my list at the moment is rather short, in fact currently it's just the K300 (although I do intend to try the K200/500 too).

I was originally looking at upgrading to another pure digital piano such as the CA98, as a large part of my time will require practice with headphones (late evening etc). However for those parts of the day when i can play without, I really would like an acoustic.

I've fip-flopped a little on this issue since once you reach the price point of the CA98, you're not that far off the price of a quality upright. However then I'd need to keep my PX-720 for silent practice. Or, accept the cost of both new acoustic and new digital, which would then lead to feeling like I'm not using the acoustic enough when practising on the CA98 (and the extra space issue). That then leads to combining the cost and looking at an acoustic with silent mod built in such as the K300 ATX3. Which is where I'm at currently.

One concern I have with that however, is I've read a few posts on various sites saying that silent piano mechanisms such as the ATX3 will change the feel/action of a piano. Is that change only present when the silent play mechanism is active? Would the K300 ATX3 feel identical to the K300 model when played acoustically? I'm planning to visit a few local stores to play the K300/K300 ATX3 and try a few other models, but I'm curious how much difference others have noticed?

Also, In 10 years time the acoustic (if maintained) should play just as nicely as when I bought it, however, the digital side will likely be showing its age. Do Kawai provide any way to upgrade the ATX3 to newer models? Was there an option for ATX2 users to upgrade to ATX3? If so, what kind of cost was incurred?

I'm not sure I'd actually want to do that, as I have no issue hooking up to a computer to take advantage of years worth of improvements to VSTs or modelling. But I am curious.

and finally, for a late beginner/early intermediate player who aspires to become as good as I can be, but has no delusions of playing at a concert pianist level or professionally, I get the impression the K300 will not be limiting my progress at any stage, is that a fair assessment? From what I've read it seems to have a well regarded action and repetition.

and finally (for real this time), what extra costs am I looking at per year for an acoustic (in the UK). Aside from tuning once or twice a year, how long do most acoustics go before other issues need attention, such as worn in hammers/dampners/key felt and when those do arise, what kind of extra cost is usually involved in fixing the issue?

Thanks all for any advice smile
Posted By: WeakLeftHand Re: K300 ATX3 - 10/20/19 03:40 PM
FWIW, I own a Casio Privia PX735, and have recently purchased a K-500. I also considered the K-300 ATX3 but couldn’t accept that in 10 years’ time, the acoustic part will still be young whereas the ATX part will be dated. The K-300 ATX3 is the same price as the K-500 in my area. I was told that upon resale, it’s likely I wouldn’t get much for the ATX part. I intend to keep the Casio until I upgrade it, maybe to a Kawai MP12 when it’s released (hoping in a year or 2). I think that is MY best combination for now, until I also upgrade my K-500 for a grand. Honestly though, I’m uninspired by my Casio. It does it’s job but it doesn’t inspire me at all. Can’t wait for my K-500 to come home. I get goosebumps playing on acoustics. I’m a beginner player btw.

Your flip-flopping wasn’t nearly as bad as my flip-flopping. I was all over the place! Started out wanting an avantgrand then a novus then ca98 then an acoustic grand then finally settled on an acoustic upright in combo with a mid-range digital.
Posted By: EssBrace Re: K300 ATX3 - 10/20/19 05:54 PM
If you can accommodate it I strongly advise an acoustic plus an adequate digital for silent use/other instrument voices etc. I've been looking into the same issues. I favoured possibly the Yamaha transacoustic or Kawai Aures but when the digital side goes down (or is so hopelessly outclassed by whatever's going to come along in ten years' time) that part of the piano becomes redundant.

Also, the premium the manufacturers charge for silent or transacoustic functionality is just insane (especially Yamaha).

I understand that only Yamaha (and Schimmel) have silent systems that do not negatively impact on key feel due to some clever bit of design of some sort.

As an acoustic Kawai K500 is very tempting. It's difficult to find any bad opinion of it in fact. But do look around. I played a very unassuming looking Yamaha U1 last week (30 odd years old) and it was sensational. Far better than a more expensive used U3 next to it. They're all different - new ones less so than used ones but every piano is unique - with new pianos if you do find something you really like always buy the one you have played.

I think a typical cost of tuning is about £60 - £70. If you buy from a dealer they really should provide the first tuning free (sometimes the first two tunings) and if the piano is new I would also ask for assurance that if there are some minor voicing issues that become apparent in your home that they will be sorted too. Unless you are going to play it to death I wouldn't imagine that further adjustments (other than really minor things that the tuner can address) will be necessary for several years.

To to OP, where in the UK are you?

Lastly....and probably rather unhelpfully....if you can accommodate a grand, get one.

Good luck.
Posted By: Gary001 Re: K300 ATX3 - 10/21/19 05:35 PM
I would like a grand, who wouldn't smile but sadly there is not sufficient space for one.

Regarding buying a digital and acoustic, that's something I've considered but again space becomes an issue. Buying a K300 + CA98 would also cost more than the K300 ATX3. Although the digital could be sold/upgraded in years to come. That said, space is really the issue there along with a side of guilt that would appear anytime I practiced on the digital and not the new acoustic :P

In time I don't mind hooking up to a computer to use PianoTeq (which I currently use) or the latest/greatest VST. So I'm not too worried about the digital side becoming obsolete, as long as I have midi out I'll find it useful I think.

My concern is the feel difference between K300 and K300 ATX3. Or rather, whether the action will change when playing it acoustically in a way that will make some things much harder/impossible. I've seen several posts talk about ppp becoming an issue?

There's a store local to me (near Leeds) that has a range Kawai's including K300, but they do not appear to have the K300 ATX3 to compare against.

As for the K500, I wouldn't mind that, but it is a bit more than I really want to spend, especially if I end up going for an ATX3 version.
Posted By: stillnotfamous Re: K300 ATX3 - 10/22/19 06:01 AM
Why would you buy a K300 + CA98?

The only advantage of the CA98 is how it sounds through the speakers/soundboard, and it would only be used with headphones; any time you would play through the speakers you'd just play the K300 (unless you want to play the other voices).

If that's correct, you could downgrade at least to the CA78, and if you're willing to use PianoTeq then why not just get a VPC1 or similar for silent practice - that way you're not paying for the amp and speakers that you're not using. And then put the extra money toward the K500.
Posted By: Gary001 Re: K300 ATX3 - 10/22/19 10:22 AM
Yes if I were to get a digital + acoustic, it would make more sense to get the lower end model that has the same action as the soundboard/speaker side of the specs would be of no importance to me.

I think that's the reason I'm so back and forth with this. As it makes a lot of sense to just get the acoustic + either keep my PX-720 for headphone practice, or upgrade to a higher end digital to get the better action.

On the flip side, I'm space constrained. I can fit only one in the room I wish to practice in. I might be able to make room for a second elsewhere but that'd be a compromise on usage hours, so I'm not sure I should. That reason alone makes the ATX version attractive, at least depending on how much ATX compromises the action.

I really should try the K300 + K300 ATX (or K500 variants) however, I'm not sure at my current skill level if I'd pickup on the difference even if it exists smile The concern is, will having the ATX potentially limit my growth down the line? I'm assuming not, but I'm having a hard time finding much on this topic.

On a related note, information on the K300 vs K500 is conflicting. Is there actually any real difference other than the increased height/length of strings and thus change in sound? Some sites suggest it has longer keys others mention it's the same as the K300.
Posted By: tudor33sud Re: K300 ATX3 - 10/22/19 10:29 AM
Originally Posted by Gary001
Yes if I were to get a digital + acoustic, it would make more sense to get the lower end model that has the same action as the soundboard/speaker side of the specs would be of no importance to me.

I think that's the reason I'm so back and forth with this. As it makes a lot of sense to just get the acoustic + either keep my PX-720 for headphone practice, or upgrade to a higher end digital to get the better action.

On the flip side, I'm space constrained. I can fit only one in the room I wish to practice in. I might be able to make room for a second elsewhere but that'd be a compromise on usage hours, so I'm not sure I should. That reason alone makes the ATX version attractive, at least depending on how much ATX compromises the action.

I really should try the K300 + K300 ATX (or K500 variants) however, I'm not sure at my current skill level if I'd pickup on the difference even if it exists smile The concern is, will having the ATX potentially limit my growth down the line? I'm assuming not, but I'm having a hard time finding much on this topic.

On a related note, information on the K300 vs K500 is conflicting. Is there actually any real difference other than the increased height/length of strings and thus change in sound? Some sites suggest it has longer keys others mention it's the same as the K300.

https://kawaius.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Kawai_KSeries-Brochure-07.jpg
Taken from their brochure, it seems like extended key length is one feature which applies to all of their K series range. For particularities, you could see that neotex key surfaces for example have the observation (k500 and k800 only). However, even this information seems to beoutdated, since in between now you can find k600 or even k700. That being said, I would suggest to contact Kawai UK and ask them about this things, since that's a certain proof. Or maybe, James here on the forum could speak for them if he is aware of all these differences between various models.
Posted By: Morten Olsson Re: K300 ATX3 - 10/22/19 11:19 AM
I had a K300 ATX2 and it felt fine - I am not a very experienced pianist though and never A/B tested it next to a non ATX2 so who knows - some say they can feel it - others that they don't. If you search back through my posts you'll be able to find some good information on this because I raised this question myself.

I ended up rarely using the ATX functionality and came to prefer just playing with the practice pedal (felt) enabled when I had to be quiet.

I have grown quite fond of the sound of an acoustic with the practice pedal enabled - other people seem to dislike it - you should probably try it out for yourself - it could be that you like it as well.

If I were in your shoes I would definitely get the best acoustic I could afford - without the digital stuff - and keep your current digital.
Posted By: Gary001 Re: K300 ATX3 - 10/23/19 07:36 PM
Originally Posted by tudor33sud
Taken from their brochure, it seems like extended key length is one feature which applies to all of their K series range.


I emailed Kawai UK to query the differences between the K300 and K500 and to sort out some fact from fiction, I'm not keen on pasting email exchanges without permission so here's a summary of the differences they stated exist:

- Longer Strings
- Larger soundboard
- Full perimeter frame (apparently extra strength rigidity)
- Duplex Scale (Fore)
- Neotex key surface

I'm not sure what difference the Duplex scale makes but it sounds (pun intended) like the main difference is making use of that extra cab height for longer strings/soundboard to achieve a different sound.

Also confirmed there's no way to upgrade ATX versions. It's a shame they don't offer a way to retain the same action sensor system and just swap out the logic board for new ATX versions. Even if you perhaps don't get the full benefit of the new system. It would at least be an option for people who don't want to achieve the same via midi out to pc and then back via line-in.

Wouldn't be surprised if most end up eventually not using ATX anymore and instead buying a separate newer digital or hooking up to a PC. Either way seems Kawai are leaving money on the table by not offering a way to upgrade the logic board.
Posted By: Kawai James Re: K300 ATX3 - 10/23/19 11:50 PM
Hello Gary,

Originally Posted by Gary001
I emailed Kawai UK to query the differences between the K300 and K500 and to sort out some fact from fiction, I'm not keen on pasting email exchanges without permission so here's a summary of the differences they stated exist...

Thank you for your discretion.

Originally Posted by Gary001
Either way seems Kawai are leaving money on the table by not offering a way to upgrade the logic board.


I know that, in the past, Kawai produces upgrade kits that could be used to convert a regular K series upright into an ATX model. In the case of an existing ATX instrument, given that the sensor system is already installed, it seems logical that the main CPU board could be updated as newer technologies are developed. However, this is not something that manufacturers have pursued - at least, not yet.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: Gary001 Re: K300 ATX3 - 10/24/19 05:52 PM
I've had a play of a few different uprights now including the K300 and K300 Aures and a handful of Yamahas. I did not notice any difference in feel due to the silent system, although at my level of experience, I wasn't really expecting to.

I had however forgotten just how different the action of an upright feels. As far as key repeat goes, my digital felt more like the grand I tried in terms of not having to fully release keys to repeat. I take it that's down to uprights lacking double escapement. That'll take a bit of getting used to.

On a similar note, what's the repetition limit for a well regulated K300 in the hands of an experienced pianist? Does the ATX system in anyway impact that?
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop Re: K300 ATX3 - 10/24/19 06:00 PM
Originally Posted by Gary001
On a similar note, what's the repetition limit for a well regulated K300 in the hands of an experienced pianist?

7 Hz is common for uprights due to the physics. Same note repetition, not different notes.
Posted By: Gary001 Re: K300 ATX3 - 10/26/19 03:46 PM
Just wanted to say a quick thanks to everyone. I finally made a decision to go with the K300 ATX3.

In the end, whilst very good points were made about acoustic + separate digital (whether new or keeping my PX-720) I just do not have the space to accommodate two pianos, same for the grand sadly.

I think it'll take me a few week to adjust to playing on an upright after so long on a digital, but I'm quite looking forward to playing an acoustic again. Haven't played one since I was a child.
Posted By: WeakLeftHand Re: K300 ATX3 - 10/26/19 05:47 PM
Originally Posted by Gary001
Just wanted to say a quick thanks to everyone. I finally made a decision to go with the K300 ATX3.

In the end, whilst very good points were made about acoustic + separate digital (whether new or keeping my PX-720) I just do not have the space to accommodate two pianos, same for the grand sadly.

I think it'll take me a few week to adjust to playing on an upright after so long on a digital, but I'm quite looking forward to playing an acoustic again. Haven't played one since I was a child.



Congrats!!! Only you can know what is your best choice. Happy playing.
Posted By: OscarRamsey Re: K300 ATX3 - 10/26/19 06:00 PM
Originally Posted by Gary001
Just wanted to say a quick thanks to everyone. I finally made a decision to go with the K300 ATX3.


Congratulations (albeit with some jealousy)!
Posted By: dhts Re: K300 ATX3 - 10/26/19 06:04 PM
Originally Posted by Kawai James
I know that, in the past, Kawai produces upgrade kits that could be used to convert a regular K series upright into an ATX model. In the case of an existing ATX instrument, given that the sensor system is already installed, it seems logical that the main CPU board could be updated as newer technologies are developed. However, this is not something that manufacturers have pursued - at least, not yet.

Kind regards,
James
x


Hi James, please do what you can to change the mindset in Kawai in this regard. My next piano will be an acoustic grand, either silent or Transacoustic, either Yamaha or Kawai. The issue of longevity of the digital part in an acoustic instrument which will last decades seems to crop up regularly, and were one manufacturer to address this it would absolutely sway my decision as to which manufacturer to go with.

As I understand it the warranty on say a GX-2 ATX2 is 5 years on the electronics and 10 on the acoustic element. Better than Yamaha I believe. But it would be awesome to see a commitment to support (at customers cost) a silent capability for say 20 years. Surely Kawai know that as long as they are selling pianos they are going to need a silent system, so it can't be out of the question that such a system is developed in a way where parts could be made available for older models in some form. I'm not asking for a 20 year warranty, I'd be happy to pay for upgrades, but I don't want to lose a key element of a £20,000 instrument after 5 years.

Or if you want a crazy idea, many markets are keen to establish subscription models for products. For an annual fee provide updates to the silent system at every product cycle.
Posted By: Jethro Re: K300 ATX3 - 10/27/19 01:37 AM
Originally Posted by Gary001
Just wanted to say a quick thanks to everyone. I finally made a decision to go with the K300 ATX3.

In the end, whilst very good points were made about acoustic + separate digital (whether new or keeping my PX-720) I just do not have the space to accommodate two pianos, same for the grand sadly.

I think it'll take me a few week to adjust to playing on an upright after so long on a digital, but I'm quite looking forward to playing an acoustic again. Haven't played one since I was a child.


Good for you. I'm hoping more digital users follow this path. The ideal is really to have both. One for silent practice and one for practicing and performing on an acoustic. I have an acoustic grand and a digital piano and I love this arrangement but I do wish I could play the acoustic 100% of the time which is not going to happen because my second home is a work apartment. Tell us how it goes I think you are going to completely enjoy the acoustic experience.
Posted By: pianogabe Re: K300 ATX3 - 10/27/19 07:47 AM
Like Jethro said, keep us updated! I am very curious. I am in a similar position. Had a Yamaha p115, which was rapidly replaced with a Kawai CA-58. I am an adult beginner and have had lessons for a little more than 1.5 years now. Although I like the CA58 very much and it serves its purpose, the difference between that and the piano of my teacher (a large Yamaha upright, don't know which type), in terms of sound/experience is remarkable (even though I do use a number of nice VSTs). I am sure that at some point (a year or so) I'll buy an acoustic, but I am not sure yet if that should include a silent system or that I keep the CA58 for practicing.

It is interesting to see how these things go. When I bought the Yamaha p115, the salesman told me that as a beginner this piano would be sufficient for very many years to come. Two years down the road I am already considering a third piano...
Posted By: Kawai James Re: K300 ATX3 - 10/28/19 02:30 AM
Originally Posted by Gary001
Just wanted to say a quick thanks to everyone. I finally made a decision to go with the K300 ATX3.


Congrats Gary!

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Gary001 Re: K300 ATX3 - 10/29/19 05:38 PM
Originally Posted by pianogabe
Like Jethro said, keep us updated! I am very curious


Will do. It's going to be a couple of week before we take delivery and will likely take a while to get used to an upright again, but I'll let you know my thoughts after that.
Posted By: Gary001 Re: K300 ATX3 - 11/12/19 10:15 PM
Only had the Piano a few days so don't want to comment too much on the acoustic side of it just yet, other than to say my initial impressions are highly positive. As expected it's taking me a bit of time to get used to an upright action again, but I'm having an absolute blast.

The ATX3 is proving very useful for evening practice too. However, from just a short time using that there's some really annoying elements. Gesture cancelling appears to be poorly supported so it's easy for a scroll up/down gesture to initially cause changes to a slider without realising.

Also, the settings/favourite side of the ui for the ATX3 can only be described as not just counter intuitive but rather limited and imho borderline useless.

I'd expect setting changes to either persist by default, or have a way to save changed settings and have them restored on power cycle. Now you can _almost_ do that, if you make all your changes then save a named favourite, put it in the first favourite slot and set "startup with favourite". Far more hassle than just making changes and tapping save to update current profile, although isn't too painful, but....

I say almost, because, there appears to be no way at all to edit/update that favourite if you want to make a change such as switching to open headphones or turning bluetooth audio back on. Instead you have to save a new named favourite (it doesn't prevent duplicate names either) and then move that favourite to the first slot and delete the previous one.

That might not be too bad, but...

That way of editing does not appear to be possible with any other favourite. Unless I'm missing something, if you select another favourite to active its settings, then go to pianist mode, those settings are lost. So you cannot make tweaks and save as a new favourite and delete the old (as annoying as that work flow is for slot 1 at least it's possible). Instead you've to edit faves, move the fave you want to edit to slot 1, turn the ATX3 off, turn it back on, make tweaks, save as new favourite, delete the old favourite and restore what is really the favourite you want in slot 1 and power cycle again.

Favourites would have been far better off been called "Profiles". Having a single read-only (not deletable) "factory defaults" profile so could not be edited and contained all factory settings. Then having option to "save" any changes to currently loaded profile (would really do a save as if "factory defaults" profile is loaded, but would otherwise just be a overwrite of active profile) or "save as" to create a new named profile.

That way you could at any point load any other set of settings, make minor tweaks and save (update) the profile or save as a new profile. If due to hardware restrictions some settings upon restore cannot take effect without a reboot, then this should be made clear when you load a profile that a power cycle is required to make all settings active and offer to do so. Assuming in this case that by default the last loaded profile is also the profile restored on boot.

tl;dr I don't understand why the favourite system is so limited and convoluted and does not just work like any other system that provides a way to save/load settings with or without profiles. It's quite disappointing as most of what I've seen from the rest of the UI, it works quite well.
Posted By: Kawai James Re: K300 ATX3 - 11/13/19 04:32 AM
Hello Gary,

I don't have immediate access to an instrument that uses this UI, however I don't believe it's necessary for the Favorite memory to be moved to the 1st slot each time.

My recollection is that it's possible to store settings such as Bluetooth, Headphone type etc. as the new "defaults" by storing a Favorite with the desired settings, then selecting that memory on the Favorite screen, and then selecting the "Startup with Favorite" option from the menu. If it's already turned on, turn it off, select the memory, then turned it on again.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: Gary001 Re: K300 ATX3 - 11/13/19 09:15 AM
Hi James,

Thanks for the tip. I'll give it a go later. Although it doesn't really change the process all that much in terms of being able to "edit" a non-startup favourite without a reboot as the settings when you change favourite do not appear to stick frown
Posted By: Kawai James Re: K300 ATX3 - 11/14/19 09:55 AM
Hello Gary,

I'm sorry but I'm not sure I follow you.

Would you be willing to provide a step-by-step of the procedure you're following, and what you expect should happen (vs. what actually happens), please?

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: Gary001 Re: K300 ATX3 - 11/14/19 02:05 PM
I can have another look later, but the gist of it is, there does not appear to be any way to load a favourite to then edit and save those changes unless it's the startup fave.

I made a favourite "bluetooth off" that is activated on boot that has bluetooth off, speaker vol high, headphone type open, voicing normal as a test.

If I then reboot, and tweak that setting for example, bluetooth audio on, speaker vol low, headphone closed. Then save a second fave "speaker low". If I now select that "speaker low" fave then select "bluetooth off" fave again, the speaker settings are still "low", yet bluetooth fave was saved with "high". Also the bluetooth values do not change.

Faves not persisting "settings" I can kinda understand, but do they not persist "sound settings" either?

What about virtual technition? The manual suggests voicing is included as value that can be saved to a fave. I saved a new fave with voicing set to "mellow1" whilst "bluetooth off" and "speaker low" faves had it set to normal. Changing between the faves does not however change the setting from mellow1 back to normal or vice-versa if you leave the favourites screen. The only way to have it change is to make one of the faves the startup fave and power cycle.

So, to edit an existing fave, you have to make it the startup fave, power cycle, make changes, save as new fave, delete old fave and rename and then restore the fave you really want as your boot up default. As the fave settings only appear to be activate when you select it and remain on the favourites screen. Which makes further tweaks not possible.

It's just quite convoluted when settings saved with a fave do not persist upon leaving the fave screen for anything other than the startup fave. I'm hoping I've missed some way to make this work differently because as is, I can see myself just making use of the startup fave and even that is semi frustrating to use as any changes have to be saved to a new fave and then made the new start up fave, rather than just updating existing.
Posted By: Gary001 Re: K300 ATX3 - 11/14/19 02:47 PM
To put that all another way. p77 of the manual states current settings can be "stored to a memory and immediately recalled with a single tap". Now the recall part is accurate, but "recalled" doesn't last if you leave the favourites screen, so there's no way* to recall a fave and make additional changes and update the fave.

*Other than setting as start up fave, rebooting, editing, saving as new fave, deleting old, renaming new to old name. Then restoring the fave that you really want as your startup fave. Which is quite a convoluted process. As opposed to being able to tap a fave to load it, then go to pianist mode/other modes and make changes to settings and either save as a new favourite or update existing.

Hopefully you see what I'm getting at?

If when you tap a favourite, it activated all those settings so you could leave the favourite screen and see them, you could then make further minor tweaks and save as a new favourite (and ideally have an option to update currently active).
Posted By: Kawai James Re: K300 ATX3 - 11/15/19 06:21 AM
Hello Gary, thank you for your reply.

Originally Posted by Gary001
Hopefully you see what I'm getting at?


Yes, I think I so. I'm afraid I don't think the current UI behaviour will change significantly, however I will pass on your feedback to the development team for consideration.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: Gary001 Re: K300 ATX3 - 11/15/19 09:59 AM
I think the main issue with it is, it's almost there for covering everything you need to do. It's just the favourites aspect that has some major limitations in the way it works which includes not being able to realistically edit a favourite.

If you're providing feedback, regardless of how likely or not it is to be acted on, here's my suggestion for a starting point that I believe would make for a more obvious/user friendly aspect to this part of the UI. Which aside from rename favourites to "profiles" is really just a variation on how favourites works.

I'd prefer the "profile" approach I touched on earlier. One read-only fixed profile you cannot change, delete or rename. Any time this is selected, settings/sounds/voicing etc all return to "original defaults".

You have an "active profile" which is whatever profile you last selected (by default that's the read-only "original defaults profile). Selecting a profile loads its settings and you can return to pianist mode and continue to play with those settings and more importantly, change a setting if you wish. The change settings page has the option to "save profile" or "save new profile" which as it sounds, save updates the currently active profile, "save as" brings up a dlg to enter a new profile name to save as (ideally you'd have the option to tap the name of an existing profile to overwrite that instead, but that's a minor time saver), whether you use "save" or "save as" that profile becomes the active profile.

Active profile should be restored on boot too (or an option to select which of the profiles to restore including in the list of profiles the "last used profile" option).

This would allow players to incrementally tweak any given favourite as their needs change. Easily switch between their profiles which may be their own preferred settings for various instruments/split play etc or perhaps a partner/childs settings.

All that said, if that's just not going to happen in an update then at the very least I hope Kawai would consider making a loaded favourite "sticky" in the current setup. So that you can load a favourite, return to settings, tweak and save a new favourite and delete the old. That would still be a more annoying workflow than needed, but at least you could do things like load a favourite and check what the settings were and tweak more.

Either way, thanks for your help. At least I know I wasn't missing something in the UI smile
Posted By: akc42 Re: K300 ATX3 - 11/16/19 12:46 PM
@Gary001 There was quite a long conversation about the UI in (I think) the Novus 10 Hands On thread. @Jobert worked out how to make it work. You might try searching for answers in that thread or failing that @Jobert's posts
Posted By: Gary001 Re: K300 ATX3 - 11/16/19 10:37 PM
@akc42: oh boy, that's 107 pages. I'll see if I can find the post you're referring to, this could take some time smile
Posted By: Gary001 Re: K300 ATX3 - 11/16/19 10:50 PM
I think I've found the post you're referring to, this one. Hopes dashed, unfortunately, that looks to be the same procedure I alluded to in my posts above where only the settings for the start-up fave persist after leaving the fave screen.

So to edit another fave, you have to make it the start-up fave, reboot, make changes, save as a new profile, delete old, rename, then restore what you wanted as your default fave on start-up. It works but it's very convoluted to the point it puts you off making tweaks. Where a tweak should be change setting, tap save.

I really wish Kawai had made favourites work in what I'd consider a normal way, where if you load a favourite in, you can then go see what the loaded settings are, tweak if needed and re-save. Alas, it appears that isn't to be frown

I guess the only silver lining is at least there is _A_ procedure that allows a favourite to be edited, even if it's like having your teeth pulled to do it smile
Posted By: akc42 Re: K300 ATX3 - 11/16/19 11:21 PM
Originally Posted by Gary001
@akc42: oh boy, that's 107 pages. I'll see if I can find the post you're referring to, this could take some time smile



Thats why I didn't provide a link ;-)
Posted By: Gary001 Re: K300 ATX3 - 11/23/19 09:25 PM
After further usage there's a few additional issues found.

Firstly, Bluetooth pairing has no security (mentioned this in another thread). Granted this is not a bug, but probably by design. However it could really do with only been discoverable whilst you're on a pairing screen and also asking you to confirm a pairing (then remembering it). Ideally there'd be an option to require pin entry to pair which you could enable for devices that support it. As is, people can connect in maliciously or accidentally and play whatever they feel like through your headset/speakers.

Will they? Well I've already seen the accidental playback occur.

This next one, might be a bug? When playing back demo songs the volume appears way too loud compared to regular playing volume levels. I checked the velocity via midi out to ensure it wasn't me playing too lightly. The demo songs appear to far exceed the maximum volume you can reach via a max midi note.

I've been avoiding the demo songs for this reason as I like to set the volume knob and then try not to change it so I can get used to playing at given finger weights for various dynamic levels. Rather than never quite setting the volume dial back to where it was.

Roughly two weeks spent playing the K300 now and I'm still totally loving having an acoustic and gradually getting used to the action and dynamics. It's hard to describe but it just feels so much nicer to play.
Posted By: Gary001 Re: K300 ATX3 - 11/23/19 11:54 PM
One further issue encountered tonight, trying out the record to USB function. The touch interface locked up whilst saving the recording to USB. Nothing was actually saved to the USB stick. Trying again after a reboot with a new short test recording saved to the stick fine. This was on a stick formatted by the ATX3.

This is worrying. If the USB save functionality is not reliable I could lose a complete play through of a piece. Saving to the internal memory so far has been reliable, but this is also quite useless as far as for getting the file back out. There does not appear to be a way to render/transfer internal memory recordings to the usb stick in wav or mp3 format. Only sound mode transfers are supported and that's with kawai song format only.

I'll persist with the usb recording to get a better idea of how reliable it is, maybe this was a one off issue. If it happens again though, I'll have to resort to recording via line-out which is a real shame considering it's less convenient and also a quality hit vs a pure digital file.
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: K300 ATX3 - 11/24/19 12:17 AM
Gary, I had kind of the same issue. Anyway, I was using a USB3 32GB drive. It was recommended to use a USB2 and less than 16GB.
Posted By: Colin Miles Re: K300 ATX3 - 11/24/19 08:13 AM
Originally Posted by Gary001
One further issue encountered tonight, trying out the record to USB function. The touch interface locked up whilst saving the recording to USB. Nothing was actually saved to the USB stick. Trying again after a reboot with a new short test recording saved to the stick fine. This was on a stick formatted by the AT3.


I had a similar problem on a CA78 though in this case it was a question of it not enabling the software update. Tried various sticks and it didn't even allow me to reformat. As suggested before, a software rewrite is needed. Updating badly structured software only leads to more bugs.
Posted By: Gary001 Re: K300 ATX3 - 11/24/19 11:49 AM
Tom: I'll bear that in mind, although the stick I tried was a 8GB USB2. That said, I've several other brands to try if this happens again.

I tried a few more times last night and had no further issue with it saving so I'm hoping it was a one off issue directly after formatting the stick. Although that's a rather limited amount of extra testing. Time will tell.
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: K300 ATX3 - 11/24/19 05:37 PM
Yes, as mentioned elsewhere; be sure to format the USB drive from the piano.
Posted By: Kawai James Re: K300 ATX3 - 11/25/19 02:32 AM
Hello Colin, thanks for the heads up in your PM.

Originally Posted by Colin Miles
I had a similar problem on a CA78 though in this case it was a question of it not enabling the software update. Tried various sticks and it didn't even allow me to reformat.


Yes, that's a good point about ensuring the latest software update is used, however this should not necessarily prevent the USB memory device from being formatted in the instrument.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: Kawai James Re: K300 ATX3 - 11/25/19 02:35 AM
Gary001, my apologies if I've asked you this already, however can you confirm that your ATX3 is using the latest available software, please? (currently system: v1.0.2j, UI: v1.0.2)

Please refer to the following thread for more information:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2886025/

To check the version of the system software and UI software, please download the ATX3/AURES software update instructions PDF from the Kawai Global website, via the link in the thread above.

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: EVC2017 Re: K300 ATX3 - 11/25/19 09:28 AM
About the USB stick, regardless of formatting it on the DP, it is advisable to check if it is the "real thing", meaning it really has the capacity it claims. I had a scary moment with my ES8 when I last updated its firmware with a stick that was supposed of good provenance. After failing the update (the ES8 would not start) I used another stick in the ES8 fall back mode. I tested the suspect stick with H2testw and its real capacity was half the claimed. I throw the @#$%&* thing away. The problem is not only the capacity not being what it is supposed to be, probably the stick firmware is trash too so it is not a reliable repository for whatever data you copy to it.
Posted By: Kawai James Re: K300 ATX3 - 11/25/19 09:37 AM
Interesting.

What was the brand/model of the stick, may I ask?

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Gary001 Re: K300 ATX3 - 11/25/19 07:55 PM
James: Yes it's version 1.0.2, that was something I checked as soon as I got the piano. It must have had the latest installed prior to leaving the factory.

So far I've not had a repeat of the failure to save to the usb stick. Perhaps it was just a case of the ATX3 formatting the stick then expecting it to be unplugged/re-plugged before using. Either way, so far so good.
Posted By: JoBert Re: K300 ATX3 - 11/25/19 07:59 PM
Originally Posted by Gary001
James: Yes it's version 1.0.2, that was something I checked as soon as I got the piano. It must have had the latest installed prior to leaving the factory.

Are you aware that there are two relevant version numbers?
There's one for the UI, that you can also easily check im the UI itself. The latest version for that is 1.0.2.
Then there is a second one for the firmware. This second one cannot be seen in the normal UI. You have to go through a certain procedure to see it (hold down some keys while powering up, I think). The latest for that is 1.0.2j (the "j" being the important part).
Posted By: EVC2017 Re: K300 ATX3 - 11/25/19 08:20 PM
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Interesting.

What was the brand/model of the stick, may I ask?

Cheers,
James
x


That particular stick came with a development kit from Texas Instruments (I assumed they would use a cheap but decent stick). However I have seen many reports of counterfeit versions of branded sticks (Sandisk, Kingston etc.) that have lower capacity. I am sure dishonesty in these cases do not limit to false capacity and brand but innards as well.
Posted By: Gary001 Re: K300 ATX3 - 11/25/19 10:38 PM
No I was not aware of second version number. Seems weird to not include the firmware version in the UI display too.

The version shows as V1.0.2g (hold down both left/right pedal and power on then when Kawai logo appears hold down the highest E,G,B keys to get to that)

Is V1.0.2j available for the ATX3 or is V1.0.2g the latest for that?

https://www.kawai-global.com/support/updates/ has V1.0.2 listed for download, but there's no indication as to the firmware version that includes, nor any changelog to see what may have been fixed to decide if it's worth upgrading (assuming it's even an upgrade).

Also, is the upgrade manual correct that it will take 2 hours for the firmware flashing to occur? If so, I don't want waste letting it upgrade only to find out V1.0.2g is the latest for the ATX3 :P

Edit: apparently the zip file is named v102j so I guess it is available for ATX3. Any idea where the change log might be? As the update pdf doesn't appear to include it.
Posted By: Kawai James Re: K300 ATX3 - 11/26/19 07:51 AM
Hello Gary,

Originally Posted by Gary001
Is V1.0.2j available for the ATX3 or is V1.0.2g the latest for that?


The CA98/CA78, NV10/NV5, and ATX3/AURES instruments all share essentially the same platform. The updates are available for all models.

Please refer to my previous post, which includes a link to the v1.0.2j software update thread, which in turn includes the v1.0.2g-->v1.0.2j changelog.

Originally Posted by Gary001
Also, is the upgrade manual correct that it will take 2 hours for the firmware flashing to occur?


Updating the system software takes around a minute. Updating the touchscreen UI software can take considerably longer. However, if your instrument is already running the v1.0.2 touchscreen UI software, only the system software update is necessary. I believe this information is clearly explained in the update instructions PDF.

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: Gary001 Re: K300 ATX3 - 11/26/19 07:10 PM
Originally Posted by Kawai James

Please refer to my previous post, which includes a link to the v1.0.2j software update thread, which in turn includes the v1.0.2g-->v1.0.2j changelog.


I didn't click your link originally as I'd already found the download page, so hadn't realised it included extra info such as the change log. Appreciate those been posted. Realised that later but by then couldn't edit the post and it didn't feel worth bumping the thread to note smile

It would be useful if they were included in the download zip.

Anyhow, Piano is up to date on v1.0.2j now. We'll see how it goes.
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