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Posted By: spacewhale clicking Kawai - 08/30/19 05:25 PM
The Kawai digital pianos - especially the cn series (cn25, cn27, cn35, cn37) but also some reports on the ca series - have been seemingly plagued with mechanical klicking sounds when the key is released.

reports found here https://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/81qj7u/does_anyone_own_a_kawai_cn37_digital_piano_and/

and a video examples here:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7f5CDIh6Sk&feature=youtu.be]

and here
[url=https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipM4RLEVJJPcQvvpjTWLE-8d-bI8DzvZa3uni_2cI5Hsa-rXI9Vv6Vami5-WIjTkGQ?key=Q2Q2UFhVMHhTTU10VzE0QkkzQVkweXVOWUo3Ujd3]

I will admit, that in both videos you will have to know what you're listening for, to understand what is meant by clicking.
Having personally checked two different kawai cn37 pianos in different showrooms, I found, that one of them has a very severe case of this clicking, while the other one does not.

As the cn37 and the coming up cn29/37 seem like fantastic e pianos, other than this issue: I am sure everyone thinking about buying one of these pianos would be grateful, if the people who own such a piano would give a quick response regarding the clicking sound on their personal device. Does it exist? Is it bothering you?

best wishes
Posted By: Morten Olsson Re: clicking Kawai - 08/30/19 06:33 PM
The ES8 I rent has no noises or issues with the action - seems rock solid.
In comparison the CLP645 I had for a while seemed quite noisy in comparison.
If I were shopping for a new DP I would probably go for a Kawai again.
Posted By: KL NY Re: clicking Kawai - 08/30/19 06:41 PM
No issue with my CA58, but who knows if i really really really focus on it i may hear something ..
Posted By: dmd Re: clicking Kawai - 08/30/19 07:20 PM
I have owned the Kawai ES7, ES8, CA68, and now the MP11SE and have never noticed any "clicking" of keys.
Posted By: EVC2017 Re: clicking Kawai - 08/30/19 07:53 PM
Originally Posted by Morten Olsson
The ES8 I rent has no noises or issues with the action - seems rock solid.
In comparison the CLP645 I had for a while seemed quite noisy in comparison.
If I were shopping for a new DP I would probably go for a Kawai again.

Just curious, how long have you been with her?
Posted By: AYS Re: clicking Kawai - 08/30/19 08:10 PM
I owned CA78 for a while.Some of the keys between C4 and C5 was clicking loudly with different key combinations.
When you play F4 sharp and A4 together, you could hear a loud click and when you make a trill with E4 and F4 those two keys started clicking after a while.Also G4 sharp was rattling loudly.Strangely rest of the keys were very silent and felt like they will last forever.
Posted By: solo8 Re: clicking Kawai - 08/30/19 10:53 PM
I had a little issue with the RH-III action on an ES8 the other day at the local Kawai store. I was hitting staccatos at medium volume and noticed that following the sound of the notes, the key bounced a few times before coming to rest, making noticeable thumping noise, seemingly coming from under the keys. At first I thought that was something that could be adjusted, but since the store had those plastic/wood/metal working models to demonstrate the actions, I immediately tried the staccatos on the RH-III action model. Sure enough the thumping bounces were exactly the same as those on the ES8 and I could watch the metal "fake hammer" bouncing on its neoprene rest making those light but noticeable thumps. I was trying a short series of staccatos and couldn't help but heard the thumps chasing my notes that certainly could drive me crazy at night. By comparison, I tried the same on the other keyboards (CS11 and CA58) and their wooden key action models (Grand Feel II and Grand Feel Compact) and there was almost no bounces. Of course there was some bouncing but it was dampened out immediately.

I like Kawai in many aspects and came real close to buying the ES8, which fits my needs in many ways, but just couldn't live with the racing thumps. Too bad Kawai decided to do nothing to dampen bouncing of the fake hammers and just let the bounces die out on the neoprene rest. At least, a thick layer of felt (instead of the 3 mm layer of neoprene) could do a better job, if Kawai is listening.
Posted By: Morten Olsson Re: clicking Kawai - 08/31/19 08:15 AM
Originally Posted by EVC2017
Originally Posted by Morten Olsson
The ES8 I rent has no noises or issues with the action - seems rock solid.
In comparison the CLP645 I had for a while seemed quite noisy in comparison.
If I were shopping for a new DP I would probably go for a Kawai again.

Just curious, how long have you been with her?


The ES8 ? Months not years. I’ll be returning it to the dealer soon as I was lucky to pick up a reasonably price acoustic Yamaha - haven’t played the digital since the Yamaha was delivered.
Posted By: tudor33sud Re: clicking Kawai - 08/31/19 09:19 AM
Originally Posted by Morten Olsson
Originally Posted by EVC2017
Originally Posted by Morten Olsson
The ES8 I rent has no noises or issues with the action - seems rock solid.
In comparison the CLP645 I had for a while seemed quite noisy in comparison.
If I were shopping for a new DP I would probably go for a Kawai again.

Just curious, how long have you been with her?


The ES8 ? Months not years. I’ll be returning it to the dealer soon as I was lucky to pick up a reasonably price acoustic Yamaha - haven’t played the digital since the Yamaha was delivered.


Which model of Yamaha acoustic suited you so that you could forget about digitals ? Thanks!
Posted By: magicpiano Re: clicking Kawai - 08/31/19 10:31 AM
I have to say I have a CN37 from about 2 months and after a month from the purchase I experienced some little noises too in the keys I use more (the 3 central octaves). Not the "thump" from the weights (that is normal), but a little click when you release a key that was fully depressed. It is as if there was some grease applied to the bottom of the button, so, when you release the key, you feel this light "sticky" noise. In this period of the year (very hot) where I live the air can become very humid, so I think that could be a cause. I would be very curious to know exactly what generates this sticky noise and what will happen in the winter season... Will it get worse or will it disappear? What happens to this noise if I don't play the DP for a week or more? Until now I'm playing it almost every day, so I don't know.

I would also be curious to have more info from users who have owned and played on Kawai RH3 mechanics for many years. And what about the competitors plastic keyboards? They suffer from similar noises?

Anyway I almost always use headphones, so I'm not much bothered by this. It might be a little annoying only if I play without headphones and with a very low volume from the internal speakers.
Posted By: Morten Olsson Re: clicking Kawai - 08/31/19 10:34 AM
Its an old Yamaha U1. To be honest I think I’d prefer most halfway decent acoustics over a digital - but that’s just me and I’m not having a go at digitals - they are great tools and it’s incredible the quality they deliver even at the entry level.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop Re: clicking Kawai - 08/31/19 10:37 AM
Originally Posted by Morten Olsson
Its an old Yamaha U1. To be honest I think I’d prefer most halfway decent acoustics over a digital - but that’s just me and I’m not having a go at digitals - they are great tools and it’s incredible the quality they deliver even at the entry level.

Whatever keeps you at the keyboard and practicing/playing is a good thing, even if it's a U1! thumb
Posted By: Morten Olsson Re: clicking Kawai - 08/31/19 10:45 AM
“Even” ? smile smile
Posted By: magicpiano Re: clicking Kawai - 08/31/19 10:51 AM
To me even a basic mechanical wristwatch is so much better than a digital one with dozens of (often never used) functions. That little click-clack mechanical feeling is so magical and beautiful... I think that's similar to acoustic vs digital piano. smile
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop Re: clicking Kawai - 08/31/19 10:55 AM
Originally Posted by Morten Olsson
“Even” ? smile smile

oopsies! whome
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop Re: clicking Kawai - 08/31/19 10:57 AM
Originally Posted by magicpiano
To me even a basic mechanical wristwatch is so much better than a digital one with dozens of (often never used) functions. That little click-clack mechanical feeling is so magical and beautiful... I think that's similar to acoustic vs digital piano. smile

I have a mechanical watch which costs 50x all my digital watches taken together have cost me. I know someone who collects mechanical watches. Thank goodness I did not succumb (fully) to this as I would be a lot poorer otherwise!

BTW, just as the Chinese entered into the piano building game, the Chinese have been chasing down the Swiss in watchmaking. It won't do for the real horologists, but the Chinese have cloned many of the Swiss complications in versions designed for smaller pocketbooks! grin

Posted By: Morten Olsson Re: clicking Kawai - 08/31/19 10:58 AM
That is certainly one of the things that draws me to it - it really is a mechanical wonder that something with all those moving parts can be made to withstand years of use.
Next up on my wishlist is a nice mechanical metronome to put on top smile
And a tuning ! wink
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop Re: clicking Kawai - 08/31/19 11:09 AM
Originally Posted by Morten Olsson
Next up on my wishlist is a nice mechanical metronome to put on top smile

And to replace those two monitors on either side with nice mechanical monitors!

[Linked Image]
Posted By: LarryK Re: clicking Kawai - 08/31/19 11:35 AM
Originally Posted by Morten Olsson
That is certainly one of the things that draws me to it - it really is a mechanical wonder that something with all those moving parts can be made to withstand years of use.
Next up on my wishlist is a nice mechanical metronome to put on top smile
And a tuning ! wink


Wittier is probably the most famous maker of mechanical metronomes:

https://wittner-gmbh.de/metronome_taktell_e.html

I have a big wooden cased Wittner on top of my U2. The Taktells are also cool.

There is something attractive and pleasant about mechanical devices that work well. I’m leaning towards another purely acoustic piano at the end of my rental period. Nothing with firmware! I’ve spent about five hours on the phone with support trying to get a WiFi extender system running and I’m down to one node instead of five! So annoying.
Posted By: Morten Olsson Re: clicking Kawai - 08/31/19 12:25 PM
If you haven’t tried it consider googles wifi mesh - very very easy to setup and very stable.
I’ll be getting a Wittner metronome - like the look of those and my dad used to have one.
Posted By: EPW Re: clicking Kawai - 08/31/19 12:46 PM
I have a Linksys Velop mesh system and like it. My only complaint is you need android or iOS to set it up. You can't set it up with a web browser like before. That said it was straight forward and works really well. The advantage of a Mesh system over a extender is the Mesh system doesn't lose speed.
Posted By: LarryK Re: clicking Kawai - 08/31/19 01:41 PM
Originally Posted by EPW
I have a Linksys Velop mesh system and like it. My only complaint is you need android or iOS to set it up. You can't set it up with a web browser like before. That said it was straight forward and works really well. The advantage of a Mesh system over a extender is the Mesh system doesn't lose speed.


Haha, as the old saying goes, speak of the devil and the devil appears! I have been struggling for days to set up the Velop. It has been a nightmare and I have been on the phone for hours with tech support.

Now, you set it up with a web browser or an iOS or Android app. You can add nodes attached to a wire or wirelessly. I’ve tried everything. You can add a node by pressing the reset button on the parent five times quickly. At one point I had three nodes working and could not add another two. The tech guy had me recycle the parent and the children dropped and cannot be added again. Sigh.

They’ve escalated my case twice now and I am waiting for another call.

Are all of your nodes V1 or V2? My three original are V2 and the two extra are V1. They’re supposed to interoperate. Playing my U1 is a joy compared to fighting the Velop. I had Orbi before before this and it also gave us a lot of trouble.
Posted By: Morten Olsson Re: clicking Kawai - 08/31/19 01:48 PM
Well if you give up on them give the Google ones a try.
Posted By: magicpiano Re: clicking Kawai - 08/31/19 02:19 PM
What was this thread talking about? Mechanical wrist watches? WiFi extenders? Another little derailment here... grin
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop Re: clicking Kawai - 08/31/19 02:28 PM
Originally Posted by magicpiano
What was this thread talking about? Mechanical wrist watches? WiFi extenders? Another little derailment here... grin

Definitely talking about derailments.

[Linked Image]

So what about derailments?
Posted By: LarryK Re: clicking Kawai - 08/31/19 02:33 PM
Originally Posted by magicpiano
What was this thread talking about? Mechanical wrist watches? WiFi extenders? Another little derailment here... grin


In my experience, derailments are often more interesting than the main line. I think we got onto mechanical devices vs digital devices. My apologies.

I was just amused that someone else is happily using the Velop. I would have tried the Google one but it seems to be out of stock until October.
Posted By: EPW Re: clicking Kawai - 08/31/19 02:53 PM
I like derailments smile

This is the main unit: https://www.linksys.com/us/p/P-MR8300/

With two of these: https://www.linksys.com/us/p/P-WHW0102/

Mine has stayed synced, "knocks on wood" smile

I got the MR8300 because I wanted the xtra Ethernet ports in the back. The WiFi that comes with our ATT-Gateway was always causing us problems. I hope you get yours sorted out. I might replace the dualband Velops with Tri-band if I catch a sale on them. I got the two dual-band units for on $100.00/free shipping. I would put one of the dual-band units out in the garage which is unattached to the house.
Posted By: EPW Re: clicking Kawai - 08/31/19 03:02 PM
Back to clicking Kawai. I was at Kawai dealer a few months ago and I tried CN37, CA78, CA98 and a CA48. I didn't find any clicking on them. Funny thing was I really wanted to try out a CA58. That model they didn't have frown
Posted By: spacewhale Re: clicking Kawai - 08/31/19 03:07 PM
Originally Posted by magicpiano
I have to say I have a CN37 from about 2 months and after a month from the purchase I experienced some little noises too in the keys I use more (the 3 central octaves). Not the "thump" from the weights (that is normal), but a little click when you release a key that was fully depressed. It is as if there was some grease applied to the bottom of the button, so, when you release the key, you feel this light "sticky" noise. In this period of the year (very hot) where I live the air can become very humid, so I think that could be a cause. I would be very curious to know exactly what generates this sticky noise and what will happen in the winter season... Will it get worse or will it disappear? What happens to this noise if I don't play the DP for a week or more? Until now I'm playing it almost every day, so I don't know.

I would also be curious to have more info from users who have owned and played on Kawai RH3 mechanics for many years. And what about the competitors plastic keyboards? They suffer from similar noises?

Anyway I almost always use headphones, so I'm not much bothered by this. It might be a little annoying only if I play without headphones and with a very low volume from the internal speakers.



Thank you for sharing, that does sound like the same problem.
Have you contacted your dealer about it? It does seem like a very common 'problem' that only occurs in Kawai products. But I suppose it should not stop anyone from buying it, as the number of complaints are minimal. I suppose it might be what you said, that it only appears during warm weather and only on a subset of pianos.
Posted By: LarryK Re: clicking Kawai - 08/31/19 03:15 PM
Originally Posted by EPW
I like derailments smile

This is the main unit: https://www.linksys.com/us/p/P-MR8300/

With two of these: https://www.linksys.com/us/p/P-WHW0102/

Mine has stayed synced, "knocks on wood" smile

I got the MR8300 because I wanted the xtra Ethernet ports in the back. The WiFi that comes with our ATT-Gateway was always causing us problems. I hope you get yours sorted out. I might replace the dualband Velops with Tri-band if I catch a sale on them. I got the two dual-band units for on $100.00/free shipping. I would put one of the dual-band units out in the garage which is unattached to the house.


Thanks for the well wishes. All of my devices are Tri-Band. I hope I get it sorted out.
Posted By: magicpiano Re: clicking Kawai - 08/31/19 03:17 PM
Originally Posted by EPW
Back to clicking Kawai. I was at Kawai dealer a few months ago and I tried CN37, CA78, CA98 and a CA48. I didn't find any clicking on them. Funny thing was I really wanted to try out a CA58. That model they didn't have frown
Of course, on new units you will not hear that noise. It occurs after 1 or 2 months of continuous use (1-2 hours every day).
Posted By: magicpiano Re: clicking Kawai - 08/31/19 03:28 PM
Originally Posted by spacewhale
Thank you for sharing, that does sound like the same problem.
Have you contacted your dealer about it? It does seem like a very common 'problem' that only occurs in Kawai products. But I suppose it should not stop anyone from buying it, as the number of complaints are minimal. I suppose it might be what you said, that it only appears during warm weather and only on a subset of pianos.
Honestly I don't care much about this "problem". I play mostly with headphones and if I play without headphones, the sound of the piano will cover every little click unless you play at very low volume, as I said before. The feeling from this keyboard is very good, so I consider this issue more like a "cosmetic problem". I guess that with wooden actions there are no sticky noises even after some months of playing but they are much more expensive. Many things in life are a compromise... wink
Posted By: dmd Re: clicking Kawai - 08/31/19 04:34 PM
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Of course, on new units you will not hear that noise. It occurs after 1 or 2 months of continuous use (1-2 hours every day).


Over the years I have owned multiple Kawai digital pianos (CA68, Es7, ES8, MP11SE) and have never noticed any clicking.

Also, one thing I have noticed is that those who purchase a new digital piano and have no problems … do not start a thread here to tell us that.

As a very happy Kawai digital piano user (for years), I must highly recommend their product and their service, if needed.
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: clicking Kawai - 08/31/19 05:27 PM
I don't think that this derailment has derailed the thread. Not at all.

[Linked Image]

That train derailment must surely have made clicking noises. So it's quite on topic, eh?
Posted By: LarryK Re: clicking Kawai - 08/31/19 05:40 PM
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I don't think that this derailment has derailed the thread. Not at all.

[Linked Image]

That train derailment must surely have made clicking noises. So it's quite on topic, eh?


Speaking of clicking noises, a professional pilot used to write a column in Salon, if I am not mistaken. He recounted a story of being up in a two seater plane with a pilot friend who discovered that there was some noise coming from one of the stabilizers. So, the pilot started moving the stabilizer back and forth to hear or feel the noise. The columnist in the second seat yelled at the guy to not debug this problem in the air! He convinced the pilot to land so they could figure out what was going on.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop Re: clicking Kawai - 08/31/19 05:57 PM
Originally Posted by LarryK
Speaking of clicking noises, a professional pilot used to write a column in Salon, if I am not mistaken. He recounted a story of being up in a two seater plane with a pilot friend who discovered that there was some noise coming from one of the stabilizers. So, the pilot started moving the stabilizer back and forth to hear or feel the noise. The columnist in the second seat yelled at the guy to not debug this problem in the air! He convinced the pilot to land so they could figure out what was going on.

Smart columnist. And I wonder how many aviations fatalities have resulted from pilots trying to debug in the air? I bet a lot! But we'll never know! shocked
Posted By: magicpiano Re: clicking Kawai - 08/31/19 06:27 PM
Originally Posted by dmd
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Of course, on new units you will not hear that noise. It occurs after 1 or 2 months of continuous use (1-2 hours every day).


Over the years I have owned multiple Kawai digital pianos (CA68, Es7, ES8, MP11SE) and have never noticed any clicking.

Also, one thing I have noticed is that those who purchase a new digital piano and have no problems … do not start a thread here to tell us that.

As a very happy Kawai digital piano user (for years), I must highly recommend their product and their service, if needed.
Being that the noise I'm talking about is like there was some lubricating grease where the key rests when fully depressed (and so, when you release the depressed key, a tiny grease drop detaches from the bottom where the key rests causing that sticky noise), I think it's possible that old units don't have this grease, so they don't make click/sticky noises. So, the question could be: why now they place this grease somewhere under the keys? But another question arises: why I hear this sticky noise only from the most played keys (when the unit was brand new I could only hear the classic thumps of the weights)? Maybe this grease was not supposed to be exactly there, but after much playing it has moved/leached under the key in a position where it causes this noise. I don't think I'm just unfortunate, because I read of this issue in other threads from users with the same RH3 action.

P.S.1: you can hear the sticky noise at 0:30 of the following video:



P.S.2: I'm just very curious to know what caused the little noises but, as I said before, to me it's just a cosmetic issue and is not something that could prevent me from buying, for example, an ES8, if I would need a slab piano.
Posted By: pavlikus Re: clicking Kawai - 09/08/19 06:32 AM
CN27 begun to click in the center part of the keyboard after 1.5 month of use. I can live with that though as my practice goes in the phones most the time. I was quite concerned about the issue in the beginning but now I barely find it disturbing even when playing through the speakers.
Posted By: enw10 Re: clicking Kawai - 09/08/19 09:50 PM
My CA78 is clicking like that, too. I've had it since May, and the clicking is recent (within the last month or two). It's so loud I can hear it over the music when I play. I finally contacted my dealer about it, who said he couldn't hear it in the video I sent. He contacted Kawai though, and it sounds like they're sending some parts (at least that's what I gathered from the voicemail they left on my phone that was obviously intended for the dealer). Besides the clicking (and the buzzing from the touchscreen, which they're also going to look into), I really like my piano though. If everything gets fixed, I'd happily buy another Kawai.

Here's mine:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yjj9Fq6PWQ&feature=youtu.be
Posted By: magicpiano Re: clicking Kawai - 09/09/19 08:56 AM
From that video it's difficult to say if it's the same type of click noise. In my case it's not a plastic sound. It's more as if something sticky remained attached to the bottom of the key when I release it after a full depress.
Posted By: enw10 Re: clicking Kawai - 09/09/19 01:00 PM
Originally Posted by magicpiano
From that video it's difficult to say if it's the same type of click noise. In my case it's not a plastic sound. It's more as if something sticky remained attached to the bottom of the key when I release it after a full depress.


Ah, then it's not the same. Mine is a plastic sound that I hear when I press the key, not on the release. The many clicky noises of Kawai :-/
Posted By: magicpiano Re: clicking Kawai - 09/09/19 03:52 PM
Your CA78 has a wooden action (GFII) that is very different from mine (RH3 synthetic action), so I guessed you had a different issue.
Posted By: Solon Re: clicking Kawai - 09/09/19 04:45 PM
Why not visit the Kawai Grand Feel key clinic?
Posted By: toolsche Re: clicking Kawai - 09/10/19 08:52 AM
Here is my clicking sound. Got it fixed two years ago. A technician applied grease to every key. But now it's back again. I think I will call the technician and let him apply some more grease.
Posted By: magicpiano Re: clicking Kawai - 09/10/19 12:29 PM
From the above video I can hear a plastic click noise when you press some keys. My issue is different: I hear a slightly sticky noise when I release a full-pressed key, but I have to say it's much less annoying than your click noise.
Posted By: peterws Re: clicking Kawai - 09/10/19 09:43 PM
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I don't think that this derailment has derailed the thread. Not at all.

[Linked Image]

That train derailment must surely have made clicking noises. So it's quite on topic, eh?


That would make a great scenario for a modeller . . . .
Posted By: LarryK Re: clicking Kawai - 09/26/19 04:16 PM
Originally Posted by LarryK
Originally Posted by magicpiano
What was this thread talking about? Mechanical wrist watches? WiFi extenders? Another little derailment here... grin


In my experience, derailments are often more interesting than the main line. I think we got onto mechanical devices vs digital devices. My apologies.

I was just amused that someone else is happily using the Velop. I would have tried the Google one but it seems to be out of stock until October.


If anyone cares for a Velop update, I have it running reliably with seven nodes in an 800 square foot apartment. Nothing succeeds like overkill. The Google solution was a complete disappointment and got returned for a refund. I guess most of the rooms in my place could double as Faraday cages.
Posted By: spacewhale Re: clicking Kawai - 11/11/19 09:43 PM
Hey, so a month ago I bought a brand new Kawai cn29. I love this piano. Sounds great, feels great. For the price, this thing is pretty much perfect for me.

And a week ago the middle C started 'clicking' after playing it. Which kind of sucks, because it's just the right pitch, that you can hear it over the music you're playing if you know it's there. As it only took a month to develop, I'm assuming, that this will over time get worse and it's already bothering me.

I'll go to my piano dealer and ask him if Kawai will repair it or if they can trade it for a new one. Right now I'm assuming, that this is an issue that every Kawai with this mechanic has.

I don't really have a point to make, just wanted to through this out there. I'll update once I hear back from my dealer.
Posted By: magicpiano Re: clicking Kawai - 11/12/19 11:06 AM
What type of click is it? A slightly sticky sound when you release a full depressed key or a plastic click as you press the key (like in the video posted above)?
Posted By: spacewhale Re: clicking Kawai - 11/12/19 09:04 PM
I have both a sound during pressing and a sound when releasing. I would describe both sounds as 'plasticy' or maybe 'sticky', they are very similar. I tried to record a video, but the sound is only barely audible due to a low-quality microphone. But some of the keys have definitely developed this sound.

Like I said, not loud, but noticeable.
Posted By: McBuster Re: clicking Kawai - 11/12/19 09:47 PM
Having owned the last three generations of wooden keyboards for the CA63 CA93 CA95 CA67, there has not been any clicking nor any issues at all. Just fyi ...
Posted By: magicpiano Re: clicking Kawai - 11/13/19 12:15 PM
Originally Posted by spacewhale
I have both a sound during pressing and a sound when releasing. I would describe both sounds as 'plasticy' or maybe 'sticky', they are very similar. I tried to record a video, but the sound is only barely audible due to a low-quality microphone. But some of the keys have definitely developed this sound.

Like I said, not loud, but noticeable.

About the sticky sound you can hear when you release a full depressed key, I think that's just the way the RH3 action is designed. My thought is that the sticky noise is related to the amount of grease that Kawai places inside the keys mechanics. If you read the service manual of a CN27 (which has the same RH3 action of the CN37, CN29 and CN39) you will see that for each key there are 7 points where is applied some grease. One of these points is on an axis that is located directly under the frontal part of each key. When the DP is brand new you don't hear these sticky sounds, I think because the grease is evenly distributed along the frontal axis under the key. But with time and intense playing, excess grease tends to accumulate at the bottom of the key causing the sticky sound when you release the key from a full depressing of it. Maybe some units have a little more grease than others so they could develop this sticky sound before others... However, this sticky sound is not audible at all if you play at a standard volume with the internal speakers or if you play with headphones so, personally, I can live with it. And we have to consider that an action from an acoustic piano is much louder than our DPs.

But if you hear a plastic click sound as soon as you press a key (not when you release it), after just one month of use, then I think that could be a defect of your specific unit and it should be repaired.
Posted By: magicpiano Re: clicking Kawai - 11/13/19 12:24 PM
Originally Posted by McBuster
Having owned the last three generations of wooden keyboards for the CA63 CA93 CA95 CA67, there has not been any clicking nor any issues at all. Just fyi ...

Yes, usually Kawai wooden actions are rated as the most quiet. Had you a similar experience with plastic actions?
Posted By: McBuster Re: clicking Kawai - 11/13/19 03:26 PM
Never had a plastic action ...
Posted By: EVC2017 Re: clicking Kawai - 11/13/19 08:19 PM
Originally Posted by magicpiano
[quote=spacewhale]About the sticky sound you can hear when you release a full depressed key, I think that's just the way the RH3 action is designed.


I don't think so. Otherwise the click would be present from day one and on every single key. If it is designed, then it is a bad design.

In ES8's case, besides the annoying clicks, I think this "design" feature is behind loud notes that the piano plays on occasion. Are the higher end actions based on sensors other than conductive ruber contacts?
Posted By: magicpiano Re: clicking Kawai - 11/13/19 09:36 PM
Maybe I have not used the right words, but when I said is just the way it's designed, I didn't mean that the engineers want you hear that noise, but just that it's natural to me that this action could develop such little sticky noises considering how many grease points there are for each key and where they are located. Yes, it could be just an imperfect design. But you know what? I think it's better to have more lubricant that makes keys mechanics last longer, even if a little noisy, rather than an ultra-quiet action that breaks down earlier than expected. Of course, if you could have both the things it would be better, but I think it's very difficult to make a plastic mechanics with weighted keys that lasts long and doesn't develop some noises over time.

About the "loud notes" I think that in many cases it's just a matter of dirt around the contacts. There are videos on the web where you can see how keyboard actions with some problematic keys return to be perfect after some good contacts cleaning.
Posted By: EVC2017 Re: clicking Kawai - 11/15/19 03:55 PM
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Maybe I have not used the right words, but when I said is just the way it's designed, I didn't mean that the engineers want you hear that noise, but just that it's natural to me that this action could develop such little sticky noises considering how many grease points there are for each key and where they are located. Yes, it could be just an imperfect design. But you know what? I think it's better to have more lubricant that makes keys mechanics last longer, even if a little noisy, rather than an ultra-quiet action that breaks down earlier than expected. Of course, if you could have both the things it would be better, but I think it's very difficult to make a plastic mechanics with weighted keys that lasts long and doesn't develop some noises over time.

About the "loud notes" I think that in many cases it's just a matter of dirt around the contacts. There are videos on the web where you can see how keyboard actions with some problematic keys return to be perfect after some good contacts cleaning.


About the clicks, I may tell you for sure they are not caused by the action. Instead they are caused by the contact strips. I just replaced several in the ES8 and the new ones (purchased here) make no click at all (let's hope they keep like this after a few weeks).

Regarding grease, ES8's RH3 has grease only where the keys pivot and AFAICT on the point where the keys push the hammers. The part of the mechanism that actuate on the contacts is clean, made of nylon, delrin or similar (slippery) plastic material.

Finally, about dirt on contacts, the strips are built in such a way that dirt does not penetrate in the contacts. The only way bad contact to develop is on the PCB contacts (carbon) and the conductive silicon rubber contacts themselves. I think the loud notes are caused by firmware flaw: on rare conditions, there are some sort of contact bounce that the firmware interprets as key pressed hard. Unfortunately, hard to reproduce, otherwise they would have already fixed it.
Posted By: magicpiano Re: clicking Kawai - 11/15/19 04:51 PM
Originally Posted by EVC2017
About the clicks, I may tell you for sure they are not caused by the action. Instead they are caused by the contact strips. I just replaced several in the ES8 and the new ones (purchased here) make no click at all (let's hope they keep like this after a few weeks).
So, if you hear a "click" as soon as you press a key, that could be a defective rubber. But what about an eventual sticky sound on release?
Quote

Regarding grease, ES8's RH3 has grease only where the keys pivot and AFAICT on the point where the keys push the hammers. The part of the mechanism that actuate on the contacts is clean, made of nylon, delrin or similar (slippery) plastic material.
I don't know if it's legal to post an image from a service manual or a link, but if you google, you can easily find the service manual of the CN27. It has the same RH3 action of the ES8, CN27/37/29/39 and MP7SE. On the service manual (page 20) you can see a list and a drawing of the "Grease Points". There are 7 grease points for each key.
Quote


Finally, about dirt on contacts, the strips are built in such a way that dirt does not penetrate in the contacts. The only way bad contact to develop is on the PCB contacts (carbon) and the conductive silicon rubber contacts themselves. I think the loud notes are caused by firmware flaw: on rare conditions, there are some sort of contact bounce that the firmware interprets as key pressed hard. Unfortunately, hard to reproduce, otherwise they would have already fixed it.

Unfortunately, it's not impossible for dirt to accumulate near or even under the rubbers:

[Linked Image]

Here you can find a video of a Kawai CN23 with some keys not working or working very loud. The guy fixed the problems by cleaning the contacts under the rubbers (you can jump to about 4:39 in the video):
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: clicking Kawai - 11/15/19 05:02 PM
Yes, that's a fact. I'm going to have to get off my @ss soon and clean my contacts. I get occasional full-volume sound from G3, and constant too-loud sound from severl keys in the 4th and 5th octaves.
And B3 and D4 need lube.

Moan! I hate doing this work.
Posted By: EVC2017 Re: clicking Kawai - 11/15/19 07:24 PM
Originally Posted by magicpiano
So, if you hear a "click" as soon as you press a key, that could be a defective rubber. But what about an eventual sticky sound on release?


I hear the clicks when keys are released. I have no explanation based on the looks of the removed strips (they look normal) but I suppose they degrade a little after some time of use and produce the noise when they go to their resting position (remember they work as springs for the contacts).

Originally Posted by magicpiano
On the service manual (page 20) you can see a list and a drawing of the "Grease Points". There are 7 grease points for each key.


Thanks for the hint. wink Pdf found and saved for future reference. Notice there is no grease point on the point the hammer lever contats the key contacts.

Originally Posted by magicpiano
Unfortunately, it's not impossible for dirt to accumulate near or even under the rubbers


I agree. Water and dirt always find a way. ES8's strips do not have that groove on the edges so I suppose they provide a tigher seal. But it is possible after a few years some dirt may penetrate (or earlier for dirtier more polluted places). It's been less than a year that I last opened it the interior of the piano was very clean and so the boards and under the contacts.

Thanks for the video link.
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