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Posted By: Chopin is up there VPC1 opinions - 08/20/19 11:16 AM
Hello everyone,

I realize the VPC1 is a common talking point here. I have a chance to buy it new for €1172 from a trusted dealer. I'm looking for a great piano action with high quality MIDI implementation to power my VSTs.

My other options were the SL88 Grand (which I'm doubtful about due to suspicions about their MIDI implementation in terms of being able to hit all velocity values), or possibly cheapest alternatives like FP-10, ES110. I'm really not into Yamaha's GHS action. Roland's strikes me as overly exaggerated with the escapement, and the ES110 is the one I enjoyed the most in that range.

Rambling aside, knowing my preference for Kawai actions, I have the impression that it's really a no-brainer to get the VPC1 at this price range, as only slightly better options start a whole €1000 higher (RD2000/MP11 SE). It anyway gives me the impression that one needs to go thousands above this price to get a significant improvement.

No successor to it seems to be foreseen, as well.

Could someone chip in with their opinion? (Maybe even the illustrious Kawai James!) I sadly cannot try it in person.

Thank you and kindest regards!

Posted By: newbert Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/20/19 12:03 PM
IMO get the VPC 1. I have some experience with Yamaha (DGX640) and Roland (FP-30) actions, and there is no comparison with the VPC1's. That said, it took me a bit of time to get used to the VPC1 action because it's on the heavy side.

If your main interest is using your VST's, get the VPC1. It's a no-brainer.
Posted By: nicknameTaken Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/20/19 12:20 PM
I'd rather get the P515 for VST's rather than a VPC1 due to the too heavy keybed...
Posted By: mcontraveos Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/20/19 12:25 PM
The VPC1 has an awful pedal unit, but the rest of it is really quite good. I think that you'll be better off learning to deal with the pedal unit (or it might not be an issue for you) than compromising on the action by buying a different keyboard you've mentioned.

There are keyboards superior to the VPC1, but you've rightly pointed out that they are significantly more expensive.
Posted By: butchkoch Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/20/19 12:28 PM
I got my VPC1 2 years ago. I love it, it feels like velvet and is very quiet and responsive, it lures me to play it. Some think its on the "heavy" side, and when compared to other DP's it is, but I've owned many pianos in my 7 decades and many of those not only had heavy actions, but sloppy ones too, both acoustic and digital. I've played on very expensive pianos [never owned] and was often jealous of not having the means to acquire one, the VPC for a very reasonable price gives me that option. Is it perfect? Who knows but I will say its the best keyboard this piano lover ever touched, that is his own. BTW I bought mine without having demoed it. I also have an ES8, a Roland F140R, a PC3K8, a PX160 and the new Privia PS1000.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/20/19 12:37 PM
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
I'd rather get the P515 for VST's rather than a VPC1 due to the too heavy keybed...


+1 on the P-515. You get so much more bang for your buck: on-board speakers, audio interface, stand/pedal board, etc.... and still it’s cheaper than the VPC-1.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/20/19 12:43 PM
Originally Posted by Pete14
+1 on the P-515. You get so much more bang for your buck: on-board speakers, audio interface, stand/pedal board, etc.... and still it’s cheaper than the VPC-1.

Where is the P-515 cheaper in Europe than the OP can get the VPC1 for €1172? I see on Thomann.de, the P-515B is 1470€, which is almost 300€ more than the OP can buy a new VPC-1 for.
Posted By: Jethro Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/20/19 12:44 PM
I have a VPC-1 and practice on it several days a week. As far as heaviness goes it is heavier then many digital pianos that I have played in the past and as many have said here on PW, but that heaviness is why I bought it. It actually has a slightly LIGHTER action than an acoustic Kawai RX-2 and Shigeru SK2 that I currently own. The heaviness is not a problem. People are just not used to feeling this heavy an action on a DP I think,
Posted By: Pete14 Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/20/19 12:52 PM
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by Pete14
+1 on the P-515. You get so much more bang for your buck: on-board speakers, audio interface, stand/pedal board, etc.... and still it’s cheaper than the VPC-1.

Where is the P-515 cheaper in Europe than the OP can get the VPC1 for €1172? I see on Thomann.de, the P-515B is 1470€, which is almost 300€ more than the OP can buy a new VPC-1 for.


I apologize. I was basing this on U.S.A. pricing. The VPC-1 lists for $1,850. The P-515 for $1,500 + around $200.00 for the stand/pedals (still about $150.00 cheaper).
But yes, Europe is another story.
Posted By: Chopin is up there Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/20/19 12:54 PM
Originally Posted by Pete14
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
I'd rather get the P515 for VST's rather than a VPC1 due to the too heavy keybed...


+1 on the P-515. You get so much more bang for your buck: on-board speakers, audio interface, stand/pedal board, etc.... and still it’s cheaper than the VPC-1.


Thank you both for your input.

It would be an option if it was in fact cheaper (sadly it's €100 more) and if I didn't feel I would be slightly compromising on the action. The onboard speakers I do not care much for, although the audio interface is an interesting addition.

Still, some food for thought!
Posted By: Chopin is up there Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/20/19 01:06 PM
Thank you all for your quick and informative replies.

I have decided to just take the plunge and get the VPC1, as it seems unlikely I would be disappointed. I anyway have 30 days to return it should I be unhappy. I don't mind heavier actions at all, I even prefer the control it gives me and the heft.

Regarding the suggestion of the Yamaha P-515, I'm afraid I don't put enough of a value on onboard speakers and even the audio interface to justify the extra 100 bucks + the price of a decent pedal unit. I am also skeptical that the action would be superior. But it is however a good suggestion, so thank you to those who put it forward. smile
Posted By: Bobby Simons Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/20/19 01:07 PM
Love my 515, though I was absolutely stunned to realize there is no way to save a patch (instrument/effects set-up) internally. It never even occurred to me to look. Oh well, live and learn. Though... I'm about to turn 67, running out of 'learning' time, lol.

I very nearly went for the VPC-1 myself. I didn't care what it weighs and already have good piano software (Pianoteq, Ravenscroft, Mainstage), but I did see value in an instrument with built-in speakers for my particular usage, so that tipped the scales.
Posted By: OmniaAequalis Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/20/19 02:22 PM
I played all high end DPs a while ago, including the P515, VPC1 and MP11SE. What I learned is that ultimately, action is a personal preference. I heated raving reviews of both Yamaha and Rolands action on the RD-2000 but once I played it I knew it wasn't for me. Finally it was between the MP11SE and VPC1, where the former won due to the VPC's action being a bit too heavy for my taste. Potatoes potatoes.

Enjoy your VPC! It is an excellent controller and you won't be sorry! Please let us know what your experiences are once you played it a while!

Mark
Posted By: Morten Olsson Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/20/19 02:53 PM
I loved the keybed of the VPC1 - in contrast I hated the 645 which to my knowledge has the same action as the 515.
If you don't care about built in sounds then the VPC1 is a no brainer - beautiful to look at, lovely to play.
Posted By: Kawai James Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/21/19 04:31 AM
Originally Posted by Chopin is up there
Could someone chip in with their opinion? (Maybe even the illustrious Kawai James!)


Get the VPC1.

I believe it offers the most realistic, piano-like keyboard action available for the price.

Kind regards,
James
x

EDIT: Good choice. wink
Posted By: Andrew_G Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/21/19 08:55 AM
I recommend VPC1 too. For a serious piano work with Grieg or Scriabin, I can compare it with ES110 that you mentioned in your post. (I had MP7, which AFAIK has the same action as ES110, and replaced it with VPC1).

The action of ES110 is too shallow and too light. As an example of its limitations, you cannot play a glissando quietly (p or pp). It will inevitably be ff of fff. Additionally, too light and shallow keyboard does not support well the phrasing with various velocities of separate notes, tenuto and accents.

All this is much better playable in real grands and in VPC1.



Posted By: Kawai James Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/21/19 09:31 AM
Originally Posted by Andrew_G
I recommend VPC1 too. For a serious piano work with Grieg or Scriabin, I can compare it with ES110 that you mentioned in your post. (I had MP7, which AFAIK has the same action as ES110, and replaced it with VPC1).

The action of ES110 is too shallow and too light. As an example of its limitations, you cannot play a glissando quietly (p or pp). It will inevitably be ff of fff. Additionally, too light and shallow keyboard does not support well the phrasing with various velocities of separate notes, tenuto and accents.


Please note that the ES110 action (RH Compact) is not the same as the MP7 action (RHII), and neither can compare to the VPC1 action (RM3 Grand).

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: maurus Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/21/19 10:04 AM
Get the VPC1. It is great for pianistic work. And as the others say, the keys may be "heavy" compared to other digital pianos; they are not, compared to most acoustic pianos. I am going back and forth between my grand and a VPC1 with very little effort. (Of course, the expressivity on a real piano is in a different world, still.)
Posted By: Abdol Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/21/19 01:05 PM
Originally Posted by Pete14
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
I'd rather get the P515 for VST's rather than a VPC1 due to the too heavy keybed...


+1 on the P-515. You get so much more bang for your buck: on-board speakers, audio interface, stand/pedal board, etc.... and still it’s cheaper than the VPC-1.


Defining "the bang for the buck is subjective". If the OP is looking for the best action the P-515 is not even an option. Many of the aspects of P-515 are static. You can never change the speakers, you can never get a better sound... the action, the audio interface and everything you can think of is static and is like a bundle. You buy it "as is" and you sell it "as is" for much cheaper later on.

If you look at it from this perspective, buying P515 will not make sens.
Posted By: Bobby Simons Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/21/19 01:27 PM
Fortunately I don't look at it from that perspective. Problem solved. cool
Personally, I could see owning both (515 and VPC-1). I've got room for one more.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Chopin Acolyte Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/21/19 01:30 PM
If I might chime in... I recently finished my VPC project and VPC has the action that is closest to what I'm used to from acoustic pianos, from what I've tried, including Yamaha P-515.

I recently played on a practice Steinway grand and I realized I still prefer my VPC-1, because the grand wasn't regulated recently, and I could hear weird buzzing from the inside. In other words, as far as I can tell, an acoustic piano can beat my VPC-1 setup only if it's a well regulated grand piano. So nowadays I have very little motivation to crawl out of my house since the only piano that kinda satisfies this condition is one of the practice grands at the music school and is usually booked (and is played pretty heavily throughout the day, so it's not uncommon that something's wrong with it - a few weeks ago, the soft pedal wasn't working, just a few days ago one B flat was out of tune etc. - these things happen when an instrument is played for several hours daily).

VPC-1 feels the best and closest (in terms of action) than any sub-$2000 keybed I've tried. Be wary though, it's pretty heavy (feels less heavy after playing on it for a few days) - gives you a great workout. Also, count some software (Ravenscroft, Pianoteq, Garritan, VSL, ...) and headphones/speakers into your budget. If the VPC costs ~ 1200 eur, I say, go for it!

EDIT: I was worried about the pedals, too. Someone else mentioned "an awful pedal unit", I have no clue what they're talking about. I have the F-30 pedal unit it came with by default and it's great. The pedals are springy, and somewhat lighter than a real piano pedals, and only the sustain is continuous, but I think it's very good, no trouble going back and forth between acoustic and VPC.
Posted By: U3piano Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/21/19 01:30 PM
In my opinion most digital actions are too light. I like the vpc1, i don't even think it's really heavy.
Posted By: newer player Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/21/19 02:43 PM
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
I was worried about the pedals, too. Someone else mentioned "an awful pedal unit", I have no clue what they're talking about. I have the F-30 pedal unit it came with by default and it's great. The pedals are springy, and somewhat lighter than a real piano pedals, and only the sustain is continuous, but I think it's very good, no trouble going back and forth between acoustic and VPC.

Some of the pedals go wonky over time. John O'Flaherty has a permanant fix if you run into problems. . .

http://joflaherty.org/HallEffectSustain/VPC1%20pedal%20mod.pdf
Posted By: Pete14 Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/21/19 03:01 PM
Originally Posted by Bobby Simons
Fortunately I don't look at it from that perspective. Problem solved. cool
Personally, I could see owning both (515 and VPC-1). I've got room for one more.

[Linked Image]


Holy Moly!
Do you live at Guitar Center? laugh
Posted By: aphexdisklavier Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/21/19 04:25 PM
Hey, only VPC lovers here ;))
Where are all the VPC haters I've discussed with half a year ago? (VPC2 wish list)

I like the VPC too because of its timeless look and feel. No knobs, faders, sounds, speakers that could be outdated or inoperable.
No cheap plastic. Only metal and woods.

The keys are great. The best grand piano feel for a piano/ controller of that size. Super in dynamic and response -makes fun to play on day and night wink
Posted By: Chopin is up there Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/21/19 04:56 PM
Again, thank you all for your inputs on the VPC1 and suitable alternatives, it's great to be reassured by so many positive experiences.

I'll share my setup once I have the keyboard delivered. The plan is to sit it on an IKEA Bekant desk base of 140x60 and use the extra real estate in the back for cable management and aesthetic value.
Posted By: peterws Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/21/19 05:10 PM
Would somebody like to chip in with RM3 v GF Compact? I noticed physically they occupy the same internal space, but the lengthened pivot would re-distribute (increase) component stress elsewhere, imo . . . .maybe this needs to be a new thread.
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/21/19 05:29 PM
VPC opinions:
1. Great idea.
2. Ugly finish. Nice enclosure, but ugly finish.
Posted By: Jethro Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/21/19 07:22 PM
Originally Posted by Chopin is up there
Again, thank you all for your inputs on the VPC1 and suitable alternatives, it's great to be reassured by so many positive experiences.

I'll share my setup once I have the keyboard delivered. The plan is to sit it on an IKEA Bekant desk base of 140x60 and use the extra real estate in the back for cable management and aesthetic value.

I think you are going to really like it. Have you chosen a software package yet?
Posted By: Jethro Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/21/19 07:24 PM
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
If I might chime in... I recently finished my VPC project and VPC has the action that is closest to what I'm used to from acoustic pianos, from what I've tried, including Yamaha P-515.

I recently played on a practice Steinway grand and I realized I still prefer my VPC-1, because the grand wasn't regulated recently, and I could hear weird buzzing from the inside. In other words, as far as I can tell, an acoustic piano can beat my VPC-1 setup only if it's a well regulated grand piano. So nowadays I have very little motivation to crawl out of my house since the only piano that kinda satisfies this condition is one of the practice grands at the music school and is usually booked (and is played pretty heavily throughout the day, so it's not uncommon that something's wrong with it - a few weeks ago, the soft pedal wasn't working, just a few days ago one B flat was out of tune etc. - these things happen when an instrument is played for several hours daily).

VPC-1 feels the best and closest (in terms of action) than any sub-$2000 keybed I've tried. Be wary though, it's pretty heavy (feels less heavy after playing on it for a few days) - gives you a great workout. Also, count some software (Ravenscroft, Pianoteq, Garritan, VSL, ...) and headphones/speakers into your budget. If the VPC costs ~ 1200 eur, I say, go for it!

EDIT: I was worried about the pedals, too. Someone else mentioned "an awful pedal unit", I have no clue what they're talking about. I have the F-30 pedal unit it came with by default and it's great. The pedals are springy, and somewhat lighter than a real piano pedals, and only the sustain is continuous, but I think it's very good, no trouble going back and forth between acoustic and VPC.

I guess I could have saved you the aggravation and recommended a VPC-1 to begin with. wink
Posted By: Ralphiano Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/21/19 09:00 PM
I like the VPC1 action very much. I am only about an RCM Level 3 player, so, I may not have yet even discovered all it has to offer. But, I do remember vividly being astounded by how much control it gave me over my faithful Casio Privia. As for the weight of the keys, I am convinced that is exactly what supplied the enhanced control. Also, I frequently get to play some quality acoustics (Steinway D, Kawai RX2) and the difference in feel is negligible to me.

As for the Yamaha P-515, I like it also. I have been playing it at the local Sam Ash store recently, as, I was seriously considering it as a substitute for my VPC1/Pianoteq combination. I did not think the P-515 action to be noticeably less than the VPC1 action. I am presently trying out a new virtual piano to replace Pianoteq, so, plans to buy the P-515 are currently on hold. If I cannot find happiness with this virtual piano, there will soon be a P-515 in my home.
Posted By: Ralphiano Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/21/19 09:06 PM
I forgot to mention that I also like the F-30 pedal unit. I've had no problems with it and it seems sufficiently sturdy so far.
Posted By: Kawai James Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/22/19 12:48 AM
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Ugly finish.


???

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, Mac.
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/22/19 04:03 AM
Exactly. And I stated just what my eye beheld.
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Ugly finish.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, Mac.

It's too bad that the local dealer could not demo the VPC. It just sat on its stand, not connected to any controller, muted and unplayable.

That was at a piano store specializing in Kawai acoustic pianos, but also carrying a surprisingly wide range of Kawai digitals.
It seems to me that the VPC ought to be sold at a music store like Sam Ash where it is their habit to have things "plugged in" for demo, rather than at a piano dealer where a power cord is the limit of plugging in.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/22/19 06:26 AM
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Exactly. And I stated just what my eye beheld.
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Ugly finish.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, Mac.

It's too bad that the local dealer could not demo the VPC. It just sat on its stand, not connected to any controller, muted and unplayable.

That was at a piano store specializing in Kawai acoustic pianos, but also carrying a surprisingly wide range of Kawai digitals.
It seems to me that the VPC ought to be sold at a music store like Sam Ash where it is their habit to have things "plugged in" for demo, rather than at a piano dealer where a power cord is the limit of plugging in.

When I tested the VPC1, it was not at a Sam Ash. To make it do something, I brought an iPad w/ Ravencroft 275 on it, a cable and headphones. I know that is more than 99% of people who would have seen it muted and unplayable.

BTW, the store had to go hunt for the pedal in the back since they hadn't bothered having it on display given that no one ever got to the point of needing the pedals!
Posted By: CyberGene Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/22/19 06:30 AM
Every time I’ve seen a VPC1 it was not connected either frown And the keyboard is nothing to rave about, it feels exactly like my CA63 which was underwhelming but it seems there are some under the hood changes that should make it more playable such as triple sensors.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/22/19 06:37 AM
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Every time I’ve seen a VPC1 it was not connected either frown And the keyboard is nothing to rave about, it feels exactly like my CA63 which was underwhelming but it seems there are some under the hood changes that should make it more playable such as triple sensors.

I went to the trouble of trying it out in the store, and might have set a store record doing it laugh but I needn't have bothered. The keyboard felt too heavy for me.
Posted By: Chopin is up there Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/22/19 07:36 AM
Originally Posted by Jethro
Originally Posted by Chopin is up there
Again, thank you all for your inputs on the VPC1 and suitable alternatives, it's great to be reassured by so many positive experiences.

I'll share my setup once I have the keyboard delivered. The plan is to sit it on an IKEA Bekant desk base of 140x60 and use the extra real estate in the back for cable management and aesthetic value.

I think you are going to really like it. Have you chosen a software package yet?


I have a few libraries already from my previous MIDI keyboard (a Studiologic SL990 Pro that despite its wonky MIDI implementation, felt pretty good and was reliable as a tank) such as The Giant and Grandeur, as well as some others that I don't recall since it was some years back, and have added two since in preparation: Keyscape and Noire (this last one is my favorite).

What about you?
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/22/19 07:51 AM
Originally Posted by Chopin is up there
Originally Posted by Jethro
Originally Posted by Chopin is up there
Again, thank you all for your inputs on the VPC1 and suitable alternatives, it's great to be reassured by so many positive experiences.

I'll share my setup once I have the keyboard delivered. The plan is to sit it on an IKEA Bekant desk base of 140x60 and use the extra real estate in the back for cable management and aesthetic value.

I think you are going to really like it. Have you chosen a software package yet?


I have a few libraries already from my previous MIDI keyboard (a Studiologic SL990 Pro that despite its wonky MIDI implementation, felt pretty good and was reliable as a tank) such as The Giant and Grandeur, as well as some others that I don't recall since it was some years back, and have added two since in preparation: Keyscape and Noire (this last one is my favorite).

What about you?

For pure responsiveness/expressiveness (and when you are working on something new or just practicing), you might consider Pianoteq with one VI. Then you could switch to one of the sampled pianos for performances and recordings. This is assuming you can handle Pianoteq for practicing at least.
Posted By: Bobby Simons Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/22/19 08:59 AM
Could you please elaborate? I’ve never seen one in the flesh, but it always looks beautiful to me in photos.

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
VPC opinions:
1. Great idea.
2. Ugly finish. Nice enclosure, but ugly finish.
Posted By: Morten Olsson Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/22/19 10:27 AM
I thought mine looked great - way nicer than the usual look of DP's with buttons, sliders etc spread around.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/22/19 10:39 AM
Originally Posted by Bobby Simons
Could you please elaborate? I’ve never seen one in the flesh, but it always looks beautiful to me in photos.
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
VPC opinions: 2. Ugly finish. Nice enclosure, but ugly finish.
Originally Posted by Morten Olsson
I thought mine looked great - way nicer than the usual look of DP's with buttons, sliders etc spread around.

Look is so personal. Some people still like the look of tail fins on cars.

[Linked Image]

Must we try to normalize taste?
Posted By: Morten Olsson Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/22/19 11:07 AM
I don't think we are - trying to "normalise taste" that is - but merely expressing our subjective opinions on the looks of an instrument.
Posted By: Bobby Simons Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/22/19 11:10 AM
Unless I misread it, he thinks it looks fine - with a bad paint job? confused
Posted By: magicpiano Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/22/19 11:12 AM
I think it's good looking. To me it lacks only a sliding key cover.
Posted By: johnstaf Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/22/19 11:56 AM
Originally Posted by CyberGene
And the keyboard is nothing to rave about, it feels exactly like my CA63 which was underwhelming but it seems there are some under the hood changes that should make it more playable such as triple sensors.


Agreed. I have an MP10, which feels almost the same, but the VPC-1 is better for fast repetitions and trills.
Posted By: Bobby Simons Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/22/19 12:49 PM
Well, I'll be holding out for the Ravenworks Studio Model II VPC-1. Just waiting for money to be no object... which should be any day now. I got me some lottery tickets.
Posted By: peterws Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/22/19 01:49 PM
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by Bobby Simons
Could you please elaborate? I’ve never seen one in the flesh, but it always looks beautiful to me in photos.
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
VPC opinions: 2. Ugly finish. Nice enclosure, but ugly finish.
Originally Posted by Morten Olsson
I thought mine looked great - way nicer than the usual look of DP's with buttons, sliders etc spread around.

Look is so personal. Some people still like the look of tail fins on cars.

[Linked Image]

Must we try to normalize taste?


Just GIMMEE THAT CAR! You can then normalise anything you want . . . .
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/22/19 03:56 PM
How many of you were conceived in the back seat of one of those cars? smile
Posted By: Chopin is up there Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/27/19 12:29 PM
Hello everyone!

My VPC1 is finally arriving this Thursday. So you can expect a Thursday evening setup picture and quick review as soon as I prod it off my neighbor's hands and get it up to the 2nd floor. smile
Posted By: Morten Olsson Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/27/19 01:00 PM
Hope you have someone to help carry the thing - it’s no light weight wink
Posted By: Chopin is up there Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/29/19 07:38 PM
And here it is, finally!

Setup picture:

[Linked Image]

First impressions: beautiful instrument. Substantial weight to the keys, but a lot of expressiveness and somewhat of a beauty in its simplicity. Plug and play via USB. The pedal unit is not as bad as advertised, in my opinion, but to be seen!
Posted By: Morten Olsson Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/29/19 08:59 PM
Looks very inviting - congrats smile
Posted By: Chopin Acolyte Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/29/19 09:32 PM
Oh amazing ^_^

I'm glad people are getting these VPC's, it's a very good DP ^^

BTW how do you deal with the pedals sliding back when being pressed during a piece? I placed a cardboard box behind it, so it's leaning against the wall.
Posted By: Kawai James Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/30/19 12:27 AM
Originally Posted by Chopin is up there
And here it is, finally!

[Linked Image]


Very clean setup, congrats!

James
x
Posted By: Kawai James Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/30/19 12:29 AM
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
BTW how do you deal with the pedals sliding back when being pressed during a piece?


I believe some owners have applied extra rubberised non-slip material to the underside of the pedal unit.

This would be effective on a wooden floor, as in Chopin is up there's setup above, however I'm not sure about carpeted flooring.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: Deltajockey Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/30/19 01:13 AM
I have an MP11SE on an Omega stand also. To stop the pedals moving back, I do one of two things. I string a piece of cable or string attached to the legs and running behind the pedal unit. A bit like a sling. Works if you have this type of stand, as the legs put the pedal about the right distance from the keybed.
Alternatively, I sometime use a sub woofer with my speakers, so I place it in the middle behind the pedal unit. The pedals have a lip on the base plate allowing the cable to not be jammed between the pedal unit and the sub. Works for me!
Posted By: Chopin is up there Re: VPC1 opinions - 08/30/19 06:13 AM
Originally Posted by Morten Olsson
Looks very inviting - congrats smile


Thank you smile

Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Oh amazing ^_^

I'm glad people are getting these VPC's, it's a very good DP ^^

BTW how do you deal with the pedals sliding back when being pressed during a piece? I placed a cardboard box behind it, so it's leaning against the wall.


It's really fantastic and I hope it encourages Kawai and the market to make more no-frills controllers in the next years.

I have no such issue on my wooden floor -- it takes a lot of strength to move it. The pedal unit has rubber pads on the bottom which hold strong. My floor is even varnished!

I'm a toe pedaller so I use my ankle to leverage which means I don't do much horizontal force but I still did the test. What I would do is buy a cheap rubber mat and put it under, to add grip. Alternatively, a wooden box or something solid that doesn't clash with the setup. It's even a bonus -- you can rest your legs when you're not pedalling.

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by Chopin is up there
And here it is, finally!



Very clean setup, congrats!

James
x


Thank you, James! The IKEA Bekant 140 cm x 60 cm desk base works beautifully and even comes with a cable management net -- the rubber feet on the VPC1 are slightly thinner than the support bars and they grip amazingly well to the metal with the considerable weight of the instrument.

It plays amazingly well, there's an unmatched degree of control compared to any other keyboards I've had. It's really a tactile joy and I was just noodling around mindlessly for about 2 hours yesterday. smile
Posted By: dcaspira Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/13/20 12:35 AM
Hi Chopin - my 1st post here!

I've recently purchases a VPC1, and inspired by your stand setup !

Originally Posted by Chopin is up there
Thank you, James! The IKEA Bekant 140 cm x 60 cm desk base works beautifully and even comes with a cable management net -- the rubber feet on the VPC1 are slightly thinner than the support bars and they grip amazingly well to the metal with the considerable weight of the instrument.


I have couple questions, if that's OK ?

> IKEA Bekant Underframe size - is there much overhang at the back? the ikea dimensions indicate it's potentially flush ~42cm, but they also suggest it's 60cm (which I'm not sure if that's the desk min).

> Foot size, is this the same depth dimensions ~42 as the underframe.

Ideally I'm looking to put the unit as close to the wall as possible, and would greatly appreciate any advice (or pics) that you maybe willing to share ?

Thanks in advance smile
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/13/20 01:03 AM
@dcaspira: I wouldn't hold out much hope for a response from ChopinIsUpThere. The post from August last year that you replied to was his last.
Posted By: VladK Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/13/20 01:27 AM
@dcaspira, here you will probaby find all answers (looking at pictures, legs are slightly deeper than frame but not much, for example): https://www.ikea.com/us/en/assembly...frame-for-table-top__AA-982579-7_pub.pdf

Underframe width: 18 1/8", length: 49 5/8"
Tabletop width: 23 5/8", length: 55 1/8"
Min. height: 25 5/8"
Max. height: 33 1/2"

The question is where and how are you going to place monitors? Or you expect to be headphones only?
Posted By: dcaspira Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/13/20 04:17 AM
@MacMacMac thanks for reaching out, it's a good setup - hopefully he's still about !

@VladK thank you - this is really helpful.

Ironically I did exactly the same - and found the same details. Except... the table top dimensions you found, IKEA in Australia didn't clearly spec the numbers. Thankyou!

I suspect you're correct, it doesn't look like the legs are outside the underframe dimension envelope too much. Looking at Chopin's pictures it looks pretty close...

Very Good question - monitor headphones
Posted By: U3piano Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/13/20 07:22 AM
I own a used vpc-1 for a couple of weeks now, and I love it.

The great action combined with the adjustable velocity curves has completely enhanced my digital piano experience, coming from a cp33.

I expected a nicer feel, which i most definitely got, so much more piano-like, but I underestimated the extra control this thing offers, just great. And it looks nice as well.
Posted By: dcaspira Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/13/20 10:15 AM
@u3piano congratulations ! May I ask, what is your setup ?
Posted By: U3piano Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/13/20 10:50 AM
Originally Posted by dcaspira
@u3piano congratulations ! May I ask, what is your setup ?

Thanks, Sure! By setup do you mean what is your hardware + software?

I have a vpc-1, a focusrite scarlett 2i4, and mainly use embertone walker, listening through Superlux hd-662 evo headphones. I also have jbl lsr 305 monitors, but I don't like them for piano and intend to sell them, I use headphones pretty much all of the time anyway.

As for a pc i have a I5 u4570 with 16gb ram, a couple of ssd's and windows 10.
Posted By: David Lai Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/13/20 02:43 PM
Hi everyone!
I have a question on extra controls. So on the StudioLogic SL-88Grand, I have 3 joysticks that are customizable, I can set them to pitch bend, mmodulation, expression, or whatever, basically I can name any midi messages that these 3 joysticks send, which gives me great customization if I want to control different midi message variants. Does the VPC1 have on board controls? If not, is there hardware that one can add that can enable such controls?
Thanks!
David
Posted By: dcaspira Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/13/20 11:05 PM
@U3piano excellent, that was what I was wondering.

I'm also headphones - and tossing between the Scarlett 2i4 and the Motu m2 AI. Have you had any issues with yours ?
Posted By: newbert Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/13/20 11:32 PM
Originally Posted by David Lai
Hi everyone!
I have a question on extra controls. So on the StudioLogic SL-88Grand, I have 3 joysticks that are customizable, I can set them to pitch bend, mmodulation, expression, or whatever, basically I can name any midi messages that these 3 joysticks send, which gives me great customization if I want to control different midi message variants. Does the VPC1 have on board controls? If not, is there hardware that one can add that can enable such controls?
Thanks!
David

The VPC1 has no such onboard controls.
Posted By: David Lai Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/13/20 11:37 PM
Originally Posted by newbert
Originally Posted by David Lai
Hi everyone!
I have a question on extra controls. So on the StudioLogic SL-88Grand, I have 3 joysticks that are customizable, I can set them to pitch bend, mmodulation, expression, or whatever, basically I can name any midi messages that these 3 joysticks send, which gives me great customization if I want to control different midi message variants. Does the VPC1 have on board controls? If not, is there hardware that one can add that can enable such controls?
Thanks!
David

The VPC1 has no such onboard controls.

Oh, that's not good... frown It would be hard to add extra hardware if I got this keyboard. But I've heard the action is better than that on the SL-88Grand... I'm hoping for convenience as well as reliable action. That's also quite helpful being totally blind.
Posted By: EVC2017 Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/14/20 12:45 AM
David, you would have to add a second controller. There are quite a few with mod wheels. What/how many extra controllers do you need? There are mini controllers with a few synth keys (two octaves), mod wheels, knobs, pads. I saw some by Nektar, M-Audio and Akai, probably others. Would those be too much?
Posted By: David Lai Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/14/20 03:35 AM
Originally Posted by EVC2017
David, you would have to add a second controller. There are quite a few with mod wheels. What/how many extra controllers do you need? There are mini controllers with a few synth keys (two octaves), mod wheels, knobs, pads. I saw some by Nektar, M-Audio and Akai, probably others. Would those be too much?

Well I was just wondering, on my Studiologic I have three joysticks, an expression pedal and a 3-pedal unit. The two petals are plugged into two separate jacks, so the three pedals only take one jack, not three. I’m curious, how much would it take for me to reach this kind of control if I were to get the VPC1? what would it look like to copy my similar set up to a different instrument? Thanks!
Posted By: U3piano Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/14/20 07:33 AM
Originally Posted by dcaspira
and tossing between the Scarlett 2i4 and the Motu m2 AI. Have you had any issues with yours ?

My 2i4 is a first generation one. It works well, and has done so for many years, but every now and then i get the windows blue screen, which I suspect has something to do with it's driver, but i'm not sure. Could be a problem in my windows or other components in my pc, who knows.

I think you'll be fine with either of those. If you buy a new 2i4 now i think it's a third generation, so apparently they improved some things. I believe there are separate drivers for the different generations as well.
Posted By: Keybender Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/14/20 11:45 AM
I have an SL88 Grand and recently discovered that the midi velocities are a bit inconsistent between keys. Maybe it's fixable by software. I'm wondering if that's the same for the VPC1
Posted By: aphexdisklavier Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/14/20 11:52 AM
Originally Posted by David Lai
Originally Posted by EVC2017
David, you would have to add a second controller. There are quite a few with mod wheels. What/how many extra controllers do you need? There are mini controllers with a few synth keys (two octaves), mod wheels, knobs, pads. I saw some by Nektar, M-Audio and Akai, probably others. Would those be too much?

Well I was just wondering, on my Studiologic I have three joysticks, an expression pedal and a 3-pedal unit. The two petals are plugged into two separate jacks, so the three pedals only take one jack, not three. I’m curious, how much would it take for me to reach this kind of control if I were to get the VPC1? what would it look like to copy my similar set up to a different instrument? Thanks!

The VPC1 is a piano controller. Do acoustic pianos have mod or pitch wheels? If you want a masterkeyboard, just buy a masterkeyboard smile
OR: buy a VPC1 and a small midi controller that fits your needs. as EVC2017 wrotes, there are many small controllers out there that you can easily put on top of the VPC1.
Posted By: EVC2017 Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/14/20 12:30 PM
Originally Posted by David Lai
Originally Posted by EVC2017
David, you would have to add a second controller. There are quite a few with mod wheels. What/how many extra controllers do you need? There are mini controllers with a few synth keys (two octaves), mod wheels, knobs, pads. I saw some by Nektar, M-Audio and Akai, probably others. Would those be too much?

Well I was just wondering, on my Studiologic I have three joysticks, an expression pedal and a 3-pedal unit. The two petals are plugged into two separate jacks, so the three pedals only take one jack, not three. I’m curious, how much would it take for me to reach this kind of control if I were to get the VPC1? what would it look like to copy my similar set up to a different instrument? Thanks!

David, it is a tough one. I just looked at specs just out of sheer curiosity. From specs, VPC1 only supports the three pedals unit. It has a very limited features set. It is a specialized tool that does one task and does it well (based on the opinions of most of this owners in this forum), replacing a piano keyboard. No expression pedal, very few control features. You would probably have to add a second full featured controller (with wheels, faders, knobs, buttons etc.) to have a functionality equivalent to your SL. For example, I took a look at some of the small keyboard controllers I mentioned above and they do not have an expression pedal. Bigger unites, e.g. Arturia Keylab mkii 49 does, but it has tons of controls (no joystics but wheels, faders, knobs, pads/buttons etc.). So, you end up with a more complex configuration than you may want. Or perhaps not.

May I suggest you open a different thread for this discussion? You may get more qualified answers.
Posted By: David Lai Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/14/20 01:42 PM
Originally Posted by EVC2017
Originally Posted by David Lai
Originally Posted by EVC2017
David, you would have to add a second controller. There are quite a few with mod wheels. What/how many extra controllers do you need? There are mini controllers with a few synth keys (two octaves), mod wheels, knobs, pads. I saw some by Nektar, M-Audio and Akai, probably others. Would those be too much?

Well I was just wondering, on my Studiologic I have three joysticks, an expression pedal and a 3-pedal unit. The two petals are plugged into two separate jacks, so the three pedals only take one jack, not three. I’m curious, how much would it take for me to reach this kind of control if I were to get the VPC1? what would it look like to copy my similar set up to a different instrument? Thanks!

David, it is a tough one. I just looked at specs just out of sheer curiosity. From specs, VPC1 only supports the three pedals unit. It has a very limited features set. It is a specialized tool that does one task and does it well (based on the opinions of most of this owners in this forum), replacing a piano keyboard. No expression pedal, very few control features. You would probably have to add a second full featured controller (with wheels, faders, knobs, buttons etc.) to have a functionality equivalent to your SL. For example, I took a look at some of the small keyboard controllers I mentioned above and they do not have an expression pedal. Bigger unites, e.g. Arturia Keylab mkii 49 does, but it has tons of controls (no joystics but wheels, faders, knobs, pads/buttons etc.). So, you end up with a more complex configuration than you may want. Or perhaps not.

May I suggest you open a different thread for this discussion? You may get more qualified answers.

Hi! Thanks for all the replies. I see what this might mean for me.
Though I am a pianist and would love a better action, I also hope to get some nice onboard controls so I can tinker with the midi data live as I play other instruments, and to control certain midi stuff (like the muted strikes on Ravenscroft) with a controller on the keyboard. Looks like the VPC 1 may not fit my expectations of combining a good action plus convenient controls. Probably SL is still a nice compromise. I've heard a lot of talk about the VPC1 on this forum, so I was wondering what it might look like to use the instrument, along with its flexibility of controls.
Thanks again for your replies! smile
Posted By: David Lai Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/14/20 01:43 PM
Originally Posted by Keybender
I have an SL88 Grand and recently discovered that the midi velocities are a bit inconsistent between keys. Maybe it's fixable by software. I'm wondering if that's the same for the VPC1

I do find that on my SL-88Grand, the G5 key is a bit odd sometimes. That creates problems in the beginning of Chopin's fourth ballade, for example.
Posted By: newer player Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/14/20 02:22 PM
Maybe wait to try the MP12.
Posted By: hes Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/14/20 05:37 PM
Originally Posted by David Lai
Hi! Thanks for all the replies. I see what this might mean for me.
Though I am a pianist and would love a better action, I also hope to get some nice onboard controls so I can tinker with the midi data live as I play other instruments, and to control certain midi stuff (like the muted strikes on Ravenscroft) with a controller on the keyboard. Looks like the VPC 1 may not fit my expectations of combining a good action plus convenient controls.
I don't have a VPC 1, but if I were in your situation I would make sure to check out the option of just having a small midi controller surface board sitting on the large top surface of the VPC 1. There are many inexpensive ones that have a lot of functionality. E.g., maybe not the best one for you, but Korg Nanocontrol Studio: https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/nanoKONTStu--korg-nanokontrol-studio

Also, there're some excellent apps out there that make an iPhone, iPad, or Android phone into a very flexible midi control surface. They lack the tactile feel of a hardware control (they mimic pads, knobs, sliders on the touch screen display), but some can be tailored exactly for your uses, as simple or as complicated as you want it to be. Here's an example of one of those for ipad/iphone, one of the more expensive ones at $30 (but there are others that are just $5 or $10): https://apps.apple.com/us/app/midi-designer-pro-2/id492291712
Posted By: Hokage Kakashi Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/14/20 05:50 PM
Lots of VPC1 love here, but has anyone encountered the faulty key weighing as describe in this thread?

https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?id=6886
Posted By: slobajudge Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/14/20 06:07 PM
Originally Posted by Hokage Kakashi
Lots of VPC1 love here, but has anyone encountered the faulty key weighing as describe in this thread?

https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?id=6886

Look, if there is no some damage you can see when unboxing product or there is something really wrong with the product, believe me, VPC is working incredibly good at default. No reason to chasing ants under the keys. Anyway who ever is in doubt there is Ravenscroft VPC or Lachnit for people who want hand made, faulty free, money killers products.
Posted By: Hokage Kakashi Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/14/20 06:21 PM
Originally Posted by slobajudge
Originally Posted by Hokage Kakashi
Lots of VPC1 love here, but has anyone encountered the faulty key weighing as describe in this thread?

https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?id=6886

Look, if there is no some damage you can see when unboxing product or there is something really wrong with the product, believe me, VPC is working incredibly good at default. No reason to chasing ants under the keys. Anyway who ever is in doubt there is Ravenscroft VPC or Lachnit for people who want hand made, faulty free, money killers products.

So there are no common issues with the VPC1?

After going through the clicky keys problem with the Roland FP-10, I'm seriously considering getting the VPC1. I have been trying to research if there is any known problem with the VPC1. The Roland FP10 has made me quite wary.
Posted By: slobajudge Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/14/20 07:13 PM
Originally Posted by Hokage Kakashi
Originally Posted by slobajudge
Originally Posted by Hokage Kakashi
Lots of VPC1 love here, but has anyone encountered the faulty key weighing as describe in this thread?

https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?id=6886

Look, if there is no some damage you can see when unboxing product or there is something really wrong with the product, believe me, VPC is working incredibly good at default. No reason to chasing ants under the keys. Anyway who ever is in doubt there is Ravenscroft VPC or Lachnit for people who want hand made, faulty free, money killers products.

So there are no common issues with the VPC1?

After going through the clicky keys problem with the Roland FP-10, I'm seriously considering getting the VPC1. I have been trying to research if there is any known problem with the VPC1. The Roland FP10 has made me quite wary.

I can`t say for others, but I didn`t have any problems with VPC1 that I can`t fix by myself and I am lawyer and that only after years and years of using. For example, cleaning and restoring pedal unit. About action, no DP in low price range or any plastic action no matter price can compare to VPC action if you are searching for midi-price friendly piano oriented DP. It has possible the most silent key action you can find in DP.
Posted By: Hokage Kakashi Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/14/20 07:46 PM
Originally Posted by slobajudge
Originally Posted by Hokage Kakashi
Originally Posted by slobajudge
Originally Posted by Hokage Kakashi
Lots of VPC1 love here, but has anyone encountered the faulty key weighing as describe in this thread?

https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?id=6886

Look, if there is no some damage you can see when unboxing product or there is something really wrong with the product, believe me, VPC is working incredibly good at default. No reason to chasing ants under the keys. Anyway who ever is in doubt there is Ravenscroft VPC or Lachnit for people who want hand made, faulty free, money killers products.

So there are no common issues with the VPC1?

After going through the clicky keys problem with the Roland FP-10, I'm seriously considering getting the VPC1. I have been trying to research if there is any known problem with the VPC1. The Roland FP10 has made me quite wary.

I can`t say for others, but I didn`t have any problems with VPC1 that I can`t fix by myself and I am lawyer and that only after years and years of using. For example, cleaning and restoring pedal unit. About action, no DP in low price range or any plastic action no matter price can compare to VPC action if you are searching for midi-price friendly piano oriented DP. It has possible the most silent key action you can find in DP.

I see!

I think when it comes to action, it's a lot more subjective because even with acoustic pianos, the action can differ drastically. What I did like about my FP10 was that the action feels exactly like the Yamaha and Hoffmann acoustic pianos I have played, so I have no complaints about that. It's just that the clicky keys feel rather unsettling for me haha.
Posted By: aphexdisklavier Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/14/20 08:20 PM
I have no problems with the VPC1. Anyway, if you buy a new one there is a 5 year guarantee from Kawai (I far as I know). For me its a workhorse wink
Posted By: newer player Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/14/20 09:18 PM
Originally Posted by aphexdisklavier
Anyway, if you buy a new one there is a 5 year guarantee from Kawai (I far as I know). For me its a workhorse wink
US buyers get "3 Years Parts and 1 Year Labor" warranty and different pricing schemes.

https://kawaius.com/product/vpc1/
Posted By: nierrrr Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/15/20 05:58 AM
Originally Posted by Hokage Kakashi
Lots of VPC1 love here, but has anyone encountered the faulty key weighing as describe in this thread?

https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?id=6886

purchased my vpc1 a week ago. it's a lovely instrument but some notes seemed to play audibly louder than others for no good reason. just did the same test using a 140gram weight and can confirm, velocities are all over the place, scattered around randomly across the octaves just like in the quoted post.

[img]https://imgur.com/a/1VYQdfg[/img]

(data taken after a factory reset, using all default settings)

the worst discrepancies seem to occur between the G and A notes, with a substantial dropoff in velocity from F4 to A4. it's possible to tinker around with the VPC editor and manually change the values (offset), but it's not a great solution since you end up running into the same issue at the extreme ends (pianissimo or fortissimo, depending on the direction of the offset).

so thanks for making me aware of the issue, even though ignorance might've been bliss in my case as i do really love everything else about the vpc1. i'm wondering if this is a big enough deal to warrant returning the unit and playing the lottery again to try to luck out with a non faulty unit. this would be the 2nd time returning a kawai instrument in the span of a month (returned an es8 for other quality control issues in exchange for the vpc1) so it's getting pretty frustrating... any advice is appreciated and apologies for hijacking the thread somewhat laugh
Posted By: Hokage Kakashi Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/16/20 03:53 AM
Originally Posted by nierrrr
Originally Posted by Hokage Kakashi
Lots of VPC1 love here, but has anyone encountered the faulty key weighing as describe in this thread?

https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?id=6886

purchased my vpc1 a week ago. it's a lovely instrument but some notes seemed to play audibly louder than others for no good reason. just did the same test using a 140gram weight and can confirm, velocities are all over the place, scattered around randomly across the octaves just like in the quoted post.

[img]https://imgur.com/a/1VYQdfg[/img]

(data taken after a factory reset, using all default settings)

the worst discrepancies seem to occur between the G and A notes, with a substantial dropoff in velocity from F4 to A4. it's possible to tinker around with the VPC editor and manually change the values (offset), but it's not a great solution since you end up running into the same issue at the extreme ends (pianissimo or fortissimo, depending on the direction of the offset).

so thanks for making me aware of the issue, even though ignorance might've been bliss in my case as i do really love everything else about the vpc1. i'm wondering if this is a big enough deal to warrant returning the unit and playing the lottery again to try to luck out with a non faulty unit. this would be the 2nd time returning a kawai instrument in the span of a month (returned an es8 for other quality control issues in exchange for the vpc1) so it's getting pretty frustrating... any advice is appreciated and apologies for hijacking the thread somewhat laugh
That's really unfortunate! I read in the modartt forum that VPC1 has quality control issues, not sure how true that is, but it seems that the velocity issue isn't a one-off case. I don't think there's anything else you can do other than swapping for a new one? You should probably do that while you can. Describe the issue to the store as well so maybe they will take the issue up to Kawai.
Posted By: dcaspira Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/17/20 02:16 AM
@U3piano thanks for the input - very helpful smile
Posted By: Kawai James Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/17/20 04:08 AM
Hello nierrrr, welcome to the forum.

Looking at the plotted graph, it appears that the average velocity is around 60, but trending upward (which I would expect due to the graded-weighted keys), with a variation of around +/- 10.

I'm not an engineer, but gather that it's not uncommon to see a small amount of variance with rubber switch-based keyboard actions, which can be caused by minute positional/timing differences.

The VPC1 is the most popular virtual piano controller, and VPC1 customers are perhaps more discerning than other players who use a regular digital piano to control their preferred piano library.

Personally speaking, this amount of variance wouldn't bother me a great deal - especially if I loved the overall touch of the VPC1. And if it did bother me, I would probably use the VPC Editor to finetune individual key velocities as desired.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: U3piano Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/17/20 07:59 AM
Originally Posted by Kawai James
I'm not an engineer, but gather that it's not uncommon to see a small amount of variance with rubber switch-based keyboard actions, which can be caused by minute positional/timing differences.


So... optical sensors for gf4 / gfc2? smile
Posted By: aphexdisklavier Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/17/20 10:57 AM
Hello nierrr,
do you think acoustic pianos (with all the small mechanical pieces) have an absolute equal "velocity"/ loudness of the different keys? Also the most VSTs I know have differences in loudness per key so that I use the finetune for some key velocities individually programmed for different piano VSTs. Thats an opinion you can´t do on the most other DPs.
Posted By: aphexdisklavier Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/21/20 09:38 AM
Interesting german interview with Christoph Spendel (Jazz pianist and professor at Frankfurt Hochschule für Musik/University for Music).
He tells that he uses the VPC1 with Synthogy Ivory VSTs in his studio. He thinks the VPC1 is the best masterkeyboard. Thats the setup for his last album "Piano Shades" too. For Live performances he uses MP11 SE with the Shigeru-Kawai-Sample.
https://www.pianoo.de/pianoo-people/christoph-spendel/
Posted By: CyberGene Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/21/20 10:00 AM
So, the VPC1 is the best MIDI controller because like real pianos it also has inconsistent velocities between the different keys. That’s pretty cool, I’ve never thought of that. Wondering why they didn’t advertise it.
Posted By: aphexdisklavier Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/21/20 10:19 AM
Do you have perfect midi-velocity values created by roboters? Users who measure quickly with a weight are not very representative for me. Comparisons to other masterkeyboards are missing too. I just wanted to post that there are professional famous pianists who are very happy with the VPC1.
Posted By: CyberGene Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/21/20 11:05 AM
I think if you can feel the inconsistency by only playing the keyboard then it’s unacceptable. I returned my NU1X for that.
Posted By: aphexdisklavier Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/21/20 11:27 AM
I am not a fan of the NU1X either. My VPC1 has no inconsistency.
Posted By: CyberGene Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/21/20 12:01 PM
I’d still prefer NU1X with inconsistencies over VPC1 without. But it’s also more expensive and, expectedly, feels incomparably more realistic, so it’s not a fair game anyway.
Posted By: dire tonic Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/21/20 12:39 PM
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I’d still prefer NU1X with inconsistencies over VPC1 without. But it’s also more expensive and, expectedly, feels incomparably more realistic, so it’s not a fair game anyway.

"..incomparably more realistic..."? - improbably far-fetched.
Posted By: CyberGene Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/21/20 02:00 PM
Originally Posted by dire tonic
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I’d still prefer NU1X with inconsistencies over VPC1 without. But it’s also more expensive and, expectedly, feels incomparably more realistic, so it’s not a fair game anyway.

"..incomparably more realistic..."? - improbably far-fetched.
It has a real action. How realistic it is? Infinitely so, isn’t it?
Posted By: dire tonic Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/21/20 02:29 PM
".....feels incomparably more realistic...."? - improbably far-fetched.

better?
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/21/20 02:40 PM
So in this world where everything is synthetic and fake ... anything real or authentic requires hyperbolic description?
Posted By: CyberGene Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/21/20 02:45 PM
Feel can be good or bad. Feel can also be realistic or not. VPC1 feels realistic. NU1X is real. How realistic the latter feels is a nonsense, because it’s a quantity that applies to digital actions only. So, yes, I used a nonsensical comparison.

Let me try again. NU1X is real. VPC1 is approximation. To me the NU1X is immensely better for that reason alone. Which is reflected in its price. Other people might prefer the VPC1 though, since they are not interested in 100% realism. Nobody is wrong. Is that OK with you now?
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/21/20 03:12 PM
In this corner ...
[Linked Image]


And in this corner ...
[Linked Image]


Ten rounds ... begin.
Posted By: dire tonic Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/21/20 03:17 PM
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Let me try again. NU1X is real. VPC1 is approximation. To me the NU1X is immensely better for that reason alone.
And I bet it has a glossier finish, too?

Quote
Which is reflected in its price. Other people might prefer the VPC1 though, since they are not interested in 100% realism. Nobody is wrong. Is that OK with you now?

I'm 100% interested in the realism of the experience of playing a piano. When most deeply immersed in my playing and in the music, I'm not thinking about the mechanism. So from my point of view, no piano is incomparably more realistic than the VPC1 though it's worth saying I've played an awful lot of pianos, from indifferent to superb. Perhaps that's made me a little more adaptable, a little less precious.

How's that for you?
Posted By: CyberGene Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/21/20 03:28 PM
Originally Posted by dire tonic
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Let me try again. NU1X is real. VPC1 is approximation. To me the NU1X is immensely better for that reason alone.
And I bet it has a glossier finish, too?
And a flatter top 😁

Anyway, I don’t disagree with you. I’ve played probably less pianos than you. I think I’m immersed fully into music when I play too and I never *think* about mechanics when I play. It comes as a satisfaction afterwards. And because of that I felt NU1X gave me so much more than other digital pianos I’ve played, it’s incomparably better. To me. You can say I’m less experienced and you are right. But pianos are not made for experienced people only. Or for the most experienced only. They are made for everybody who’s interested in them which is why my opinion is equally as valid as yours. Because another person may feel like me. And not like you. Or the other way around.

Are we even? 🤝

(Mac, we’ve lost the two world wars against UK (and their allies), so very low chance on my side...)
Posted By: dire tonic Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/21/20 03:37 PM
Originally Posted by CyberGene
... which is why my opinion is equally as valid as yours. Because another person may feel like me. And not like you. Or the other way around.
Of course
Quote
Are we even? 🤝
We were never anything but.
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/21/20 05:54 PM
But they didn't have you during those wars. Big difference!
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Mac, we’ve lost the two world wars against UK (and their allies), so very low chance on my side...)
Posted By: Björn from Earth Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/24/20 09:31 AM
Hi guys,
what do you think are chances that a VPC2 will be released until end of this year or at NAMM in January 2021? Will there any update at all or will the product line simply die? If a new model is about to be released what are your thoughts about with which action it will come? GF3 or even Millennium 3 and what pedal unit and at which price point? Will it come with MIDI 2.0 and the new Bluetooth LE Audio support? Will it come with a USB C connector and maybe also an Ethernet port (with power over Ethernet?) or even with WiFi onboard for MIDI 2.0 over Ethernet?
Posted By: johnstaf Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/24/20 09:50 AM
Originally Posted by Björn from Earth
GF3 or even Millennium 3 and at which price point?

With a Millenium 3 action, it would probably cost five times the price.
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/24/20 09:52 AM
Slight exaggeration? The VPC sells for around $1500. So five times would be $7500. That's a bit lower than the NV10, but more expensive than most other digitals ... for just-a-controller? Hmmm ...
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by Björn from Earth
GF3 or even Millennium 3 and at which price point?

With a Millenium 3 action, it would probably cost five times the price.
Posted By: johnstaf Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/24/20 11:29 AM
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Slight exaggeration? The VPC sells for around $1500. So five times would be $7500. That's a bit lower than the NV10, but more expensive than most other digitals ... for just-a-controller? Hmmm ...
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by Björn from Earth
GF3 or even Millennium 3 and at which price point?

With a Millenium 3 action, it would probably cost five times the price.

Where I live it would be €6500 vs €9000. The case would need to be similar for a grand action.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/24/20 02:28 PM
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Slight exaggeration? The VPC sells for around $1500. So five times would be $7500. That's a bit lower than the NV10, but more expensive than most other digitals ... for just-a-controller? Hmmm ...

Actually, that sounds right in the ballpark to me. An M3 action (assuming M3 grand) needs all of its sensing hardware and electronics, and a pretty substantial chassis to support everything.

So all you have left to remove are the speakers and sound generator. And if a CA-78 is $3k for everything including the same sounds, how much can those components cost? A couple thousand off an NV-10 at most sounds kind of realistic, IMO, which is also why it's hardly worth making/selling it. At that point, it's only incremental cost to add the missing pieces and drastically expand your target market.

How much would you expect a full hybrid DP minus the tone electronics and speakers to cost? Low enough where you could buy it and also a CA-78 to drive the sound and speakers, for less than rhr NV-10?
Posted By: TonyDIGITAL Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/24/20 02:49 PM
If I was Kawai I would keep two product lines separate: DP with all the GF actions (MP-/CA-/...) and AURES/NOVUS (K-/GL-/...) with the Hybrid Millennium (III) actions.
If there would be a keybed-only product with Millennium similar the VPC-X the price would be close to the NV-X series.
For me personally I'm thinking of getting the NV-10 but it's hard to decide since I can also just keep the VPC-1 for practice / silence play time and get a GL-10/K-200 for the acoustic enjoyment.
Just my two cents...
Posted By: newer player Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/24/20 04:42 PM
Originally Posted by Björn from Earth
what do you think are chances that a VPC2 will be released until end of this year or at NAMM in January 2021?
No idea. Probability dropped due to human malware logistics. This controller is older but good and has no direct competition so no real pressure on Kawai IMHO. VPC-1 still looks ultra-modern.

Originally Posted by Björn from Earth
Will it come with MIDI 2.0
Today there is virtually no MIDI 2.0 gear being sold. Roland currently sells a slab (A-88 MKII) with MIDI 2.0 incorporated but that feature seems to require a software update as Roland's website states "(coming soon)".

Kawai does not seem to be a current partner of the MIDI association; I don't know how that would impact their roll out of MIDI 2.0. https://www.midi.org/partners/alphaindex/k

MIDI 2.0 offers a ton of features for musicians but two I find interesting.

- much tighter timings (lower jitter), which may be a nice performance improvement, particularly for big chords and fast playing.

- high resolution velocity; but high res MIDI cc#88 has been available for a decade. Some argue that 128 steps is sufficient. That said, one LA recording studio with a Yamaha Disklavier recorded pros playing and over the years saw a relatively limited range being used by pros (say 55-90). So with just 35 steps being used by a decent sample of pros, maybe higher res makes sense. Most people here seem to disagree but not many of us have tried true high res MIDI.

FYI Casio used to market "high resolution" pianos but there was some controversy around that and it seems Casio changed it's marketing speak so no longer claims "high resolution". You can search the PianoTeq forums for more information.

Originally Posted by Björn from Earth
Bluetooth LE Audio support?
Doesn't matter to me as the latency performance is too poor forlive piano practicing.

Originally Posted by Björn from Earth
Will it come with a USB C connector and maybe also an Ethernet port (with power over Ethernet?) or even with WiFi onboard for MIDI 2.0 over Ethernet?
Don't need MIDI 2.0 for these as MIDI specification does not specify transport. I don't think Kawai uses USB C, ethernet, or wifi and would not expect them to release these on a VPC-X (TM).
Posted By: Frédéric L Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/24/20 04:55 PM
Nothing prevents high speed transfer with MIDI1.0 over USB. I quote the 1999 specification :

USB can easily handle heavy loads of MIDI data while preserving the timing integrity of the data. Hundreds of MIDI note messages can be sent all at the same time.

Then MIDI2.0 is not needed to achieve tight timing (the USB2.0 permits a 8000Hz pooling) and high resolution velocity.
Posted By: U3piano Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/24/20 05:13 PM
Originally Posted by Hokage Kakashi
Lots of VPC1 love here, but has anyone encountered the faulty key weighing as describe in this thread?

https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?id=6886

While these charts look like reasons to worry, I don't notice any unevenness in playing. So, I don't know where all this unevenness in the charts comes from, but if you are considering a vpc-1 my advice would be to not worry about it and play the damn thing. smirk
Posted By: newer player Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/24/20 05:58 PM
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Nothing prevents high speed transfer with MIDI1.0 over USB. I quote the 1999 specification :

USB can easily handle heavy loads of MIDI data while preserving the timing integrity of the data. Hundreds of MIDI note messages can be sent all at the same time.

Then MIDI2.0 is not needed to achieve tight timing (the USB2.0 permits a 8000Hz pooling) and high resolution velocity.
True. But maybe with MIDI 2.0 makers will actually run faster than 31.25kbaud...

Originally Posted by SynMike
That's me talking in the video linked earlier in the thread. I made the MIDI 2.0 Environment diagram shown above. I am a co-author of the USB MIDI specification.

The current USB MIDI specification defines the difference between a 5pinDIN connection (31.25kbaud) and a higher speed direct connection. The spec could be improved in that regard, now looking in hindsight 20 years (!) later. But the bigger problem is that most operating system APIs don't use that part of the specification. Devices can send data into the Host at high speed, although you are never sure what your destination software can handle. Many (most?) software applications throttle all data to 31.25 when sending out of the Host to any port because they don't know what the destination can handle.

I'm optimistic that with MIDI 2.0 these limitations will be solved. MIDI 2.0 requires much higher bandwidth. The specs will define a solution. Then it is up to each manufacturer/developer to take advantage of the capabilities provided by the specifications.
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/ele...sic-production/1247128-midi-2-0-a-2.html
Posted By: Frédéric L Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/24/20 06:03 PM
Yes, you are right. But we can think of a software setting (new firmware), which enable full speed MIDI over USB or a throttled stream. Then the high accuracy will be compatible with DAW which are not MIDI2.0.

“ But maybe with MIDI 2.0 makers will actually run faster than 31.25kbaud...” I find the *maybe* pessimistic. Is it intended ?
Posted By: newer player Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/24/20 06:20 PM
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
“ But maybe with MIDI 2.0 makers will actually run faster than 31.25kbaud...” I find the *maybe* pessimistic. Is it intended ?
I'm optimistic but over the medium-term.
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/24/20 07:41 PM
Yes ... doable, but not sellable. Who's gonna pay full piano price for half a piano?
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Slight exaggeration? The VPC sells for around $1500. So five times would be $7500. That's a bit lower than the NV10, but more expensive than most other digitals ... for just-a-controller? Hmmm ...

Actually, that sounds right in the ballpark to me. An M3 action (assuming M3 grand) needs all of its sensing hardware and electronics, and a pretty substantial chassis to support everything.

So all you have left to remove are the speakers and sound generator. And if a CA-78 is $3k for everything including the same sounds, how much can those components cost? A couple thousand off an NV-10 at most sounds kind of realistic, IMO, which is also why it's hardly worth making/selling it. At that point, it's only incremental cost to add the missing pieces and drastically expand your target market.

How much would you expect a full hybrid DP minus the tone electronics and speakers to cost? Low enough where you could buy it and also a CA-78 to drive the sound and speakers, for less than rhr NV-10?
Posted By: KevinM Re: VPC1 opinions - 06/24/20 10:16 PM
I think there is a market, I just don’t know how large. I would love to have the best digital hybrid action in a controller. I have gone all in on VSTs now and what Could be better than to match that up with a real action.

To accommodate the action the controller would be large but still more compact than one which was also a NV10 or Avante Grand.
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