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No una-corda samples on new digital pianos?

Posted By: magicpiano

No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/24/19 05:27 PM

At first I thought that the soft-pedal (first pedal on the left) that on an acoustic grand piano switches to una-corda timbre, on my recently bought digital piano (Kawai CN37) did nothing... Then I noticed that if I press the keys at forte/fortissimo, the sound plays always at a normal velocity. So the soft-pedal, on my digital piano, works like a sort of limiter on the highest velocity layers, or maybe is just a simple filter that cuts the highest frequencies, but the timbre doesn't change. That's very different from a real una-corda pedal feeling.

I thought that recent digital pianos had una-corda samples too. Honestly, I'm a little disappointed, but at least I know I can use that pedal with a VST with real una-corda samples.

Maybe there are some instruments (from the library of about 350 sounds) that use that pedal for some special effect?
Posted By: Sweelinck

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/24/19 06:36 PM

Sounds like this may just reduce the midi velocity generated by the key strike.
Posted By: FrankCox

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/24/19 07:13 PM

That pedal makes a difference on my Casio AP-650 but it's not a huge difference -- it doesn't cut the volume by half or anything like that. It works at lower volumes than "hammering" but the difference is quite subtle if you're playing softly to begin with.
Posted By: Pianofortissimo

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/24/19 07:15 PM

Sounds very strange. I don't know on CN37, but on top-level DPs that I played (mainly Yamaha and Kawai) I noted a good response pressing left pedal. Maybe other members could explain better.
Posted By: Nordomus

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/24/19 08:43 PM

Yep, top digitals DO have simulated una corda sound. CN37 might not, I don't know, it's not top digital, I'd say it's medium grade.
Posted By: magicpiano

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/24/19 10:38 PM

I ask confirm if the CA series and all those with HI-XL engine have specific samples for una-corda sound too or they apply just a low-pass filter and/or velocity limiter. I found no references on this matter on the official manuals or the brochures. What the manuals say for the soft-pedal is exactly the same for the CN and the CA recent series... No reference about una-corda samples...
Posted By: Faiz

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/25/19 03:31 AM

My CA98 unacorda does its job and I can even adjust the pedal depth in virtual technician
Posted By: Nordomus

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/25/19 06:51 AM

Unfortunately una corda is rarely mentioned in digital piano info BUT I can confirm it works well in all top digital pianos of all manufacturers. Top meaning price around 2000$ and up.
Posted By: magicpiano

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/25/19 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by Faiz
My CA98 unacorda does its job and I can even adjust the pedal depth in virtual technician
I too can adjust the pedal depth in the Virtual Technician options. But on my CN37 all it does that option is lowering the max velocity I can reach when play forte/fortissimo. I hear no differences in the timbre if I play at piano or normal velocity with left pedal pressed down, no real una-corda samples and no filtering either. Just a velocity limit. By the way, the default value of "3" for the soft-pedal depth is too low to me. I have to raise to 8 to make it somehow useful.

Do you confirm on your CA98 you feel "completely different samples" when you press down the left pedal? It would be very strange that they do not advertise they have distinct una-corda samples in the higher models digital pianos...
Posted By: Doug M.

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/25/19 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by magicpiano
Originally Posted by Faiz
My CA98 unacorda does its job and I can even adjust the pedal depth in virtual technician
I too can adjust the pedal depth in the Virtual Technician options. But on my CN37 all it does that option is lowering the max velocity I can reach when play forte/fortissimo. I hear no differences in the timbre if I play at piano or normal velocity with left pedal pressed down, no real una-corda samples and no filtering either. Just a velocity limit. By the way, the default value of "3" for the soft-pedal depth is too low to me. I have to raise to 8 to make it somehow useful.

Do you confirm on your CA98 you feel "completely different samples" when you press down the left pedal? It would be very strange that they do not advertise they have distinct una-corda samples in the higher models digital pianos...


Hi Magicpiano,

Try two things:
1) Do a factory reset
2) Check to see if there are any firmware updates, and if so, upgrade to the new version.

Just to see if anybody had changed the settings prior to you buying the instrument.

Kind regards,

Doug.
Posted By: magicpiano

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/25/19 12:44 PM

Hi Doug, I have the last firmware version and unfortunately a factory reset doesn't help.

I think there are no una-corda samples in my digital piano, so the developers simply made the left pedal work as a velocity limiter to make you play more soft even if you press hard on the keys.

P.S.: no one told me yet if they feel true una-corda samples when they use the left pedal on their digital pianos...
Posted By: Andrew_G

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/25/19 01:51 PM

Fortunately, most of the popular piano plugins have una corda mode. In Garritan CFX and Ravenscroft 275 it is gorgeous and sounds as good or even better than the main piano tone. If I'm not mistaken, Pianoteq does not have it.


Posted By: magicpiano

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/25/19 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by Andrew_G
Fortunately, most of the popular piano plugins have una corda mode. In Garritan CFX and Ravenscroft 275 it is gorgeous and sounds as good or even better than the main piano tone. If I'm not mistaken, Pianoteq does not have it.


Pianoteq has una-corda mode too. Of course is modeled, not sampled, so it uses some algorithms to change the phase and frequencies of the overtones to emulate the una-corda sound.

Some years ago I bought "Ivory II American Concert D" VST package. It's a beautiful and warm vintage Stainway D piano sound and it has real una-corda samples too. I have yet to try how it plays on the keyboard of my CN37, because the PC where I installed it, actually it's far from this piano (and I don't have space near the piano to put a PC case), so for now I can use it only on a cheap semi-weighted keyboard I have near the PC. I think in the near future I will build a mini-PC and will place it near the CN37, so that I'll be able to play the nice Ivory II piano on it.

From various videos I think I like the Ravenscroft sound too. Maybe I should try it. Is it playable as the Ivory II Vintage D?
Posted By: Faiz

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/25/19 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by magicpiano
Originally Posted by Faiz
My CA98 unacorda does its job and I can even adjust the pedal depth in virtual technician
I too can adjust the pedal depth in the Virtual Technician options. But on my CN37 all it does that option is lowering the max velocity I can reach when play forte/fortissimo. I hear no differences in the timbre if I play at piano or normal velocity with left pedal pressed down, no real una-corda samples and no filtering either. Just a velocity limit. By the way, the default value of "3" for the soft-pedal depth is too low to me. I have to raise to 8 to make it somehow useful.

Do you confirm on your CA98 you feel "completely different samples" when you press down the left pedal? It would be very strange that they do not advertise they have distinct una-corda samples in the higher models digital pianos...

I recently jumped on my piano and I just discovered that it produced the same timbre but at different level of velocity. So I just assume it is just the same sample.

In Pianist Mode I found the una corda sounded somehow more natural. I am not sure if it is because the sample is better or special "tweaks" in Pianist Mode.

That's just my observation and opinion, I don't have the data.
Let's wait for Kawai James to join us
Posted By: magicpiano

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/25/19 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by Faiz
I recently jumped on my piano and I just discovered that it produced the same timbre but at different level of velocity. So I just assume it is just the same sample.

In Pianist Mode I found the una corda sounded somehow more natural. I am not sure if it is because the sample is better or special "tweaks" in Pianist Mode.

That's just my observation and opinion, I don't have the data.
Let's wait for Kawai James to join us

Thanks for your info.
1-corda samples would double the space required for the samples, and that for each of the main grand piano sounds (SK-EX, SK-5, EX), so I guess they used this trick to avoid to use a bigger flashrom to store the samples. Maybe in Pianist Mode there are different resonances added when you press the left pedal.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/25/19 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by magicpiano

1-corda samples would double the space required for the samples, and that for each of the main grand piano sounds (SK-EX, SK-5, EX), so I guess they used this trick to avoid to use a bigger flashrom to store the samples.


That's the rub with samples, isn't it? If you regular samples consisting of multiple velocity layers, you need attack, decay key-off, smooth release, and other various components for each, and then you need to replicate all or some of them for your sustain samples. Add soft samples, and you have to do everything again unless you "fudge" it with filters/models. Then, you recall that you can have soft + sustain down at the same time! After a few rounds of this, I bet the full physical modeling route really starts to look promising smile
Posted By: clothearednincompo

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/25/19 07:19 PM

Maybe the digital felt on the digital hammers on your digital piano haven't hardened enough yet for there to be any significant timbre difference with the una corda pedal in use.
Posted By: Faiz

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/25/19 07:29 PM

Originally Posted by Gombessa

That's the rub with samples, isn't it? If you regular samples consisting of multiple velocity layers, you need attack, decay key-off, smooth release, and other various components for each, and then you need to replicate all or some of them for your sustain samples. Add soft samples, and you have to do everything again unless you "fudge" it with filters/models. Then, you recall that you can have soft + sustain down at the same time! After a few rounds of this, I bet the full physical modeling route really starts to look promising smile

"Hahaha"
- Roland Corporation and Modartt
Posted By: Andrew_G

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/26/19 06:25 AM

Originally Posted by magicpiano
From various videos I think I like the Ravenscroft sound too. Maybe I should try it. Is it playable as the Ivory II Vintage D?
It is playable as good as Garritan CFX and Ivory II AKG (which I like less). Be aware that Ravenscroft is quite demanding concerning computer resources. For example, some pedal-sustained notes may stop sounding if you play too many notes with depressed pedal, especially when using all mics. Today I find Garritan CFX (full) more rich and inspiring, although the beauty of una corda mode in Ravenscroft is unbeatable.
Posted By: magicpiano

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/26/19 06:57 AM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
That's the rub with samples, isn't it? If you regular samples consisting of multiple velocity layers, you need attack, decay key-off, smooth release, and other various components for each, and then you need to replicate all or some of them for your sustain samples. Add soft samples, and you have to do everything again unless you "fudge" it with filters/models. Then, you recall that you can have soft + sustain down at the same time! After a few rounds of this, I bet the full physical modeling route really starts to look promising smile
All of that requires just the double size of whatever flashrom size you have in a digital piano. Considering that flashrom in our digital pianos currently are not very big (the Kawai CS8, for example, that is not much different from the current top models, uses a flashrom of 512MB) I think that double this size would not be so costly for the manufacturer as it would be to use a single-board powerful enough to generate a good modeled piano sound with decent polyphony. So, I think that as long as sampling-technology is cheaper, they will continue to use it. When a strong enough CPU will cost less than a 512MB flashrom, than I'm sure you will see modeled piano sound engines used in cheap keyboards too.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/26/19 08:54 AM

"Only double" for a relatively rarely used feature (few DPs even come with a soft pedal). Also, HI-XL may be 512MB but SK-EX models have 1GB, so that'd require roughly 2GB of ROM. Still doable of course, but manufacturers will probably think twice before allocating that much to just una corda.

I'm not sure what the limiting resource of physical modeling is, but I suspect it's at least the algorithmic know how and expertise as it is any hardware constraints. Since when in higher end models where CPUs aren't cost-limited (and VSTs where there is no built-in CPU cost) we still don't have more than a skant few modeling options.
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/26/19 10:02 AM

You don't need any una corda samples. You just use the regular samples. Choose a low-velocity sample for its timbre, and cut the loudness level.
Do they not do that in your piano? If not, I wonder why?
Originally Posted by magicpiano
1-corda samples would double the space required for the samples, and that for each of the main grand piano sounds (SK-EX, SK-5, EX), so I guess they used this trick to avoid to use a bigger flashrom to store the samples.
Posted By: Andrew_G

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/26/19 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
You don't need any una corda samples. You just use the regular samples. Choose a low-velocity sample for its timbre, and cut the loudness level.
Do they not do that in your piano? If not, I wonder why?
In a real grand una corda sound extraction is essentially different. A hammer strikes only a single string of the note-related set of 2 or 3 strings. The rest of the strings only resonate, without being touched. This produces a sound with soft attack and very special harmonics. So, the physical process is different. Modelling it by modifying the non-una-corda samples cannot produce good results.
Posted By: magicpiano

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/26/19 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
You don't need any una corda samples. You just use the regular samples. Choose a low-velocity sample for its timbre, and cut the loudness level.
Do they not do that in your piano? If not, I wonder why?

That's a very basic (and cheap) implementation of the effect and I guess that's what do many (if not all) digital pianos today. But true una-corda sounds are different because the hammer strikes just 1 string instead of the usual 3 (apart from the very first octaves, when we have 1 or 2 strings). It should be not just a volume/velocity reduction, but a different sound with a slightly more harp-like timbre. If you try an acoustic grand piano or a good VST with 1-corda samples, you will hear the difference.
Posted By: magicpiano

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/26/19 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by Andrew_G
In a real grand una corda sound extraction is essentially different. A hammer strikes only a single string of the note-related set of 2 or 3 strings. The rest of the strings only resonate, without being touched. This produces a sound with soft attack and very special harmonics. So, the physical process is different.
Exactly.
Quote
Modelling it by modifying the non-una-corda samples cannot produce good results.
Theoretically speaking with modelling you could do anything. You can consider the 1-corda sound like a different piano to model. If the result is good or not depends from the level of accuracy of the model.
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/26/19 11:03 AM

Uh, no. It produces superb results.
Remember ... The tech doesn't matter. The sound does.
Posted By: johnstaf

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/26/19 11:09 AM

When using using una corda, the hammer strikes two strings when there are three per note. Sometimes, it strikes all the strings. Some manufacturers and techs just needle the parts of the hammer that strike the string when using una corda (the hammers are shifted to the right), and strike all three strings. IIRC Steingraeber do it this way at the factory.

Posted By: JoeT

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/26/19 11:14 AM

My P-515 has a soft pedal and it does exactly what the name says: Making the sound softer. The overall volume doesn't change much and I can still play forte, but the timbre gets much more mellow.

There is no una corda specified anywhere in digital piano manuals, but UC is something specific to grand pianos anyway. Even upright pianos don't feature it.
Posted By: magicpiano

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/26/19 12:36 PM

Upright pianos usually don't have a 1-corda pedal. They have a soft-pedal that, when depressed, brings the hammers closer to the strings so it will play softer. This generates a sound that is somehow more similar to what my digital piano does.

So, my conclusion is: the vast majority of digital pianos have no 1-corda function. They can use a pedal to activate a behaviour similar to that of an upright piano when you depress its left pedal.

Now I'm curious to know what Roland digital pianos (with modeled sound) do when you press the soft-pedal... 1-corda emulation, or soft-pedal emulation?
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/26/19 12:46 PM

How often do you use the una-corda pedal in your playing and with what kind of music? People on this forum sometimes tend to fixate too much on almost academic types of problems concerning digital pianos which leads to weird conclusions such as declaring some digital pianos (or sound generation approaches) unfit because of unnecessarily overblown significance of parameters. Half-pedaling on the sostenuto pedal comes to mind from one thread in the past laugh
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/26/19 12:50 PM

That's a very good point, CG. Frankly the una corda pedal is largely useless to me. Someone else might need it but I don't. That's why I've reassigned it to other functions.

Even more so the sostenuto pedal. That one is just a clunker. Not only is it totally useless to me, but it's positioning is awkward. It might as well not even be there.

That's a good joke about half-pedaling the sostenuto. smile
That's akin to the 60s era joke about the astronauts' packaged dehydrated instant water. Just add water.
Posted By: JoeT

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/26/19 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
How often do you use the una-corda pedal in your playing and with what kind of music?

I use it when Chopin writes "sotto voce".
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/26/19 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by CyberGene
How often do you use the una-corda pedal in your playing and with what kind of music?

I use it when Chopin writes "sotto voce".

I also use it when I see ppp to be able to create very soft tones more easily rather than just relying on soft touch but I don't think it makes any serious difference for the player smile I don't even think it makes a difference for me, besides the psychological one. Is there any piece which requires the una corda pedal throughout an entire piece? OTOH the "doll" from Debussy's Children Corner comes to mind but I doubt it makes any serious difference with or without. Would be interesting to see what grand Debussy had and how the una-corda was implemented on his grand. Let me check the score to see whether the pedal is marked as "una corda" at all or just "left pedal".
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/26/19 02:35 PM

Just checked the Serenade for the doll score and downloaded the manuscript but the resolution is low and it's no readable what's written but there are only 2-3 words there. In the first official release the french instruction is "Il faudra mettre la pédale sourde pendant toute la durée de ce morceau". French members should help in translation but I believe this translates just as "soft" pedal. Not necessarily una-corda, so the intent might have been just to produce as quiet tone as possible.
Posted By: magicpiano

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/26/19 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
How often do you use the una-corda pedal in your playing and with what kind of music? People on this forum sometimes tend to fixate too much on almost academic types of problems concerning digital pianos which leads to weird conclusions such as declaring some digital pianos (or sound generation approaches) unfit because of unnecessarily overblown significance of parameters. Half-pedaling on the sostenuto pedal comes to mind from one thread in the past laugh

With classic music there are situations when you should/would like to use the 1-corda pedal or the soft-pedal. AFAIK it's very difficult (if not impossible) to play some scales very quickly with a low velocity timbre and low volume.

Anyway I never said that my digital piano is unfit for my needs or a pianist needs. I'm just used to analyze all the functions of a new device I own, even something I rarely use. I like to know that that function is there for when I could need it. And when you see a glittering golden pedal I think you are more eager to try and test it. laugh

A "continuous" sostenuto pedal... I think this is a bit 'too much... grin
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/26/19 03:27 PM

For quick and quiet lines you can play leggiero - tapping keys lightly to put some momentum in the hammers without pressing them fully.
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/26/19 05:36 PM

Google translates this ...
Il faudra mettre la pédale sourde pendant toute la durée de ce morceau.
as ...
It will be necessary to put the pedal deaf for the duration of this piece.
We'll have to grant google some poetic license when he says "deaf".
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Just checked the Serenade for the doll score and downloaded the manuscript but the resolution is low and it's no readable what's written but there are only 2-3 words there. In the first official release the french instruction is "Il faudra mettre la pédale sourde pendant toute la durée de ce morceau". French members should help in translation but I believe this translates just as "soft" pedal. Not necessarily una-corda, so the intent might have been just to produce as quiet tone as possible.
Posted By: mimi9

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/26/19 06:27 PM

"la pedale sourde" means the una-corda pedal. But I believe there's some doubt about what Debussy intended.
Posted By: TomLC

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/26/19 09:01 PM

I use the left pedal to turn the page on Forscore. smirk. If I need to play softly, I don’t hit the keys as hard. smile
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/26/19 09:35 PM

Exactly.
Originally Posted by TomLC
I use the left pedal to turn the page on Forscore. smirk. If I need to play softly, I don’t hit the keys as hard. smile
But I use the left pedal to change pianos in Kontakt.
Posted By: Frédéric L

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/26/19 10:15 PM

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
But I use the left pedal to change pianos in Kontakt.

Are you using a custom multi-script, or is there a mire convenient way ?
Posted By: JJHLH

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/26/19 11:28 PM

Originally Posted by TomLC
I use the left pedal to turn the page on Forscore. smirk. If I need to play softly, I don’t hit the keys as hard. smile


Great idea! How do you go about setting this up? I’d love to try it.
Posted By: TomLC

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/26/19 11:50 PM


I forget who on PW mentioned it. I have an Airturn PedPro that I was using. It was really unreliable. So here is what you need: an iPad app called MIDIMITTR. It connects to your piano with bluetooth. You may need to look at the instructions for ForScore. Or maybe someone else can give you better instructions.
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/26/19 11:52 PM

I use a multi-script ...

It allows me to select any of my six pianos using buttons on the UI.
It also allows piano selection by pressing the sostenuto pedal and then striking any of the six lowest white keys.
It allows a MIDI player to feed into Kontakt and play a different instrument than the one I'm using for piano.
I recently began having some overly loud notes on this old piano ... so I scripted a way to trim down the velocity of the offending notes with the scripting. That's until I repair those key sensors. Not sure how, though.

There's a lot you can do with Kontakt scripting.
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
But I use the left pedal to change pianos in Kontakt.

Are you using a custom multi-script, or is there a mire convenient way ?
Posted By: Jethro

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/27/19 12:23 AM

Although the una chorda is otherwise known as the soft pedal it’s also as others have said here used to create an effect. You can actually play loud with the una chorda pedal. My teacher was just showing me how to use una chorda and gradually increase volume to forte with una chorda and sustain pedal engaged throughout in a Bach transcription by Busoni I am currently working on. Even popular pieces like Debussy’s Claire de Lune uses una chorda extensively to add to impressionist feel of the piece. It helps sometimes to obscure passages that require a little less detail and more of a washed sound. Don’t ever let anyone tell you it’s not important.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/27/19 05:12 AM

Originally Posted by Jethro
Although the una chorda is otherwise known as the soft pedal it’s also as others have said here used to create an effect. You can actually play loud with the una chorda pedal. My teacher was just showing me how to use una chorda and gradually increase volume to forte with una chorda and sustain pedal engaged throughout in a Bach transcription by Busoni I am currently working on. Even popular pieces like Debussy’s Claire de Lune uses una chorda extensively to add to impressionist feel of the piece. It helps sometimes to obscure passages that require a little less detail and more of a washed sound. Don’t ever let anyone tell you it’s not important.

That’s very interesting. Can you record yourself to demonstrate it?
Posted By: Andrew_G

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/27/19 06:13 AM

Here is an example of Synthogy Ivory ACD beautiful una corda sound:

https://soundcloud.com/synthogy/debussy-reflets-rachel-flowers-ivory2

Overall (imo) ACD today is less interesting than some popular plugins, but its una corda samples are brilliant.
Posted By: Andrew_G

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/27/19 10:40 AM

And in this example you can compare the ordinary and the una corda sounds in a single Bach's piece:

https://soundcloud.com/synthogy/bac...ynthogy/sets/ivory-ii-american-concert-d
Posted By: johnstaf

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/27/19 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by Andrew_G
Here is an example of Synthogy Ivory ACD beautiful una corda sound:

https://soundcloud.com/synthogy/debussy-reflets-rachel-flowers-ivory2

Overall (imo) ACD today is less interesting than some popular plugins, but its una corda samples are brilliant.


Agreed. I haven't used Ivory American D in years, but the una corda is particularly good. I always felt that way.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/27/19 01:39 PM

I need to dust off my Garritan CFX but I remember it had a complete set of una-corda samples in multiple velocities + damper down samples and it was an audibly different timbre.

I wonder if Pianoteq has una-corda modeling or it applies filtering on top of its regular model. I found a Russian concert pianist Alexander Kuznetsov who uses Pianoteq and he complained about lack of variety with the una-corda pedal and Philip replied it’s not possible to introduce advanced configuration of una-corda: Recent una corda implementation problem
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/27/19 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene

I wonder if Pianoteq has una-corda modeling or it applies filtering on top of its regular model. I found a Russian concert pianist Alexander Kuznetsov who uses Pianoteq and he complained about lack of variety with the una-corda pedal and Philip replied it’s not possible to introduce advanced configuration of una-corda: Recent una corda implementation problem


From the thread you posted, it sounds like they don't have a really advanced model--they use the same frequency across the unisons (on the assumption that all are still bring struck) and merely adjust the intensity and hammer hardness and other factors from their general model. So while it's technically a filtering of the sound depends on how PT implements those hammer settings. But it doesn't model two of three (or one of two) strings being stuck while the remaining one resonates.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/27/19 02:29 PM

Incidentally I’m at my mom’s house where I grew up and I just played my old upright. I don’t remember having used the soft pedal previously, so I just tested it. The resulting softness of the sound is considerable! I recorded a short clip where I play with the same force but first without the soft pedal, and then with the soft pedal pressed. You can hear how much softer the sound becomes:


It’s so easy to play ultra quiet! It’s a pity I never made use of it in my formation years.
Posted By: Andrew_G

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/27/19 02:47 PM

CyberGene, yes, it's a soft pedal, not una corda. I'm not sure it's mechanically possible to implement una corda in an upright.
Yes, Garitan CFX contains very good una corda samples.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/27/19 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by Andrew_G
CyberGene, it's a soft pedal, not una corda. I'm not sure it's mechanically possible to implement una corda in an upright.

I know, which is why I called it “soft”. However I like the effect a lot. I’m not sure the una-corda effect on grands is so drastic. But I would have preferred if the soft-pedal effect was emulated in my N1X, as in my upright, rather than how it’s currently implemented.
Posted By: Andrew_G

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/27/19 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
I’m not sure the una-corda effect on grands is so drastic.
I find this effect in Garritan CFX, Ravenscroft 275 and Ivory ACD (which I play a lot) so drastic that I tend to apply it almost always.
Posted By: johnstaf

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/27/19 03:02 PM

I think it was Schubert's piano that had various contraptions to give five types of soft.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/27/19 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by Andrew_G
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I’m not sure the una-corda effect on grands is so drastic.
I find this effect in Garritan CFX, Ravenscroft 275 and Ivory ACD (which I play a lot) so drastic that I tend to apply it almost always.

I’ll have to revisit my Garritan CFX. However the N1X is so subtle it’s almost as if though the pedal does nothing.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/27/19 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene

I’ll have to revisit my Garritan CFX. However the N1X is so subtle it’s almost as if though the pedal does nothing.


Just like some acoustic grands smile
Posted By: magicpiano

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/27/19 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Andrew_G
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I’m not sure the una-corda effect on grands is so drastic.
I find this effect in Garritan CFX, Ravenscroft 275 and Ivory ACD (which I play a lot) so drastic that I tend to apply it almost always.

I’ll have to revisit my Garritan CFX. However the N1X is so subtle it’s almost as if though the pedal does nothing.
On my CN37 you have to raise the default settings of the soft pedal depth from 3 to at least 8 to hear the left pedal working... I don't know why they set a value so low but to me it's totally useless at 3.
Posted By: Jethro

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/27/19 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Jethro
Although the una chorda is otherwise known as the soft pedal it’s also as others have said here used to create an effect. You can actually play loud with the una chorda pedal. My teacher was just showing me how to use una chorda and gradually increase volume to forte with una chorda and sustain pedal engaged throughout in a Bach transcription by Busoni I am currently working on. Even popular pieces like Debussy’s Claire de Lune uses una chorda extensively to add to impressionist feel of the piece. It helps sometimes to obscure passages that require a little less detail and more of a washed sound. Don’t ever let anyone tell you it’s not important.

That’s very interesting. Can you record yourself to demonstrate it?


CG, this is not the best example but I was making a recording for piano I am in the process of selling and at 2:15 of this video I am fully depressing the una chorda on a grand, but I'm doing it more for an effect. It supposed to crescendo to the next section you here in the video and I don't know if you can hear the difference in the timbre. Obviously it is more muted with una chorda and a little dreamy/washed out. I plan to purchase a Zoom mic and redo this video. It's the first time I heard myself playing in a recording. I'll also choose more dynamic material and play longer I was trying to give some samples of the pianos tone. The recording quality and playing was poor and rigid-- sorry about that, I'll get used to it eventually. I was using my iphone and kept running out of memory. Anyways, maybe you get the idea with this video.

https://vimeo.com/349791152





Posted By: CyberGene

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/27/19 06:14 PM

^ Thanks, I can hear it even through my iPhone speakers and later on I’ll try with headphones which should be even better. According to Alexander Kuznetsov from Pianoteq forums, older grands have an una-corda that’s more pronounced compared to modern grands.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/27/19 06:26 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
According to Alexander Kuznetsov from Pianoteq forums, older grands have an una-corda that’s more pronounced compared to modern grands.


I'm not sure we can generalize from what he stated about his own piano. But there is likely a case where a new grand won't have compacted, hardened hammers to begin with so the una corda effect will be quite reduced, compared to broken in hammers that have well-work grooves from regular play.
Posted By: stamkorg

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/27/19 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
According to Alexander Kuznetsov from Pianoteq forums, older grands have an una-corda that’s more pronounced compared to modern grands.


I don't play the historic pianos on Pianoteq but on all the modern grands in Pianoteq there is a slider to set the intensity of the Una Corda effect if you want something else than the factory setting. Honestly, it works good and it can be set from inaudible to totally muffled
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/27/19 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by stamkorg
Originally Posted by CyberGene
According to Alexander Kuznetsov from Pianoteq forums, older grands have an una-corda that’s more pronounced compared to modern grands.


I don't play the historic pianos on Pianoteq but on all the modern grands in Pianoteq there is a slider to set the intensity of the Una Corda effect if you want something else than the factory setting. Honestly, it works good and it can be set from inaudible to totally muffled

He meant real acoustic grands, not Pianoteq.
Posted By: stamkorg

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 07/27/19 07:41 PM

Ok sorry I didn't understand
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/26/19 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Andrew_G
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I’m not sure the una-corda effect on grands is so drastic.
I find this effect in Garritan CFX, Ravenscroft 275 and Ivory ACD (which I play a lot) so drastic that I tend to apply it almost always.

I’ll have to revisit my Garritan CFX. However the N1X is so subtle it’s almost as if though the pedal does nothing.

Which is as mine, but I just don't think that is the proper behavior. I just watched this video:



...and it appears from the video, that with the una corda pedal fully depressed on an acoustical grand, the hammer should hit one of two, or two of three strings, on most of the notes except for A0-F#1. Even with sympathetic vibrations of the string not hit by the hammer, it should result in a significantly reduced sound for most keys, and especially G1-A#2 where it is hitting only 1 instead of 2 strings.

I'm hitting C2 on my N1X, for example, which is in this 1-string range, with and without the una corda pedal, and I almost don't detect a difference in the sound. I can't believe this is the sound of half the strings being hit. That would mean the sympathetic vibration of the untouched string is almost the same as if it had been hit by the hammer. That's stretches my incredulity.

I don't believe my N1X's una corda pedal is working, or if this is the behavior of all N1X's, I don't believe Yamaha has calibrated the sound properly.

Can someone with an acoustical grand test their C2 key and see if the una corda pedal has an effect?

Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/26/19 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I can't believe this is the sound of half the strings being hit. That would mean the sympathetic vibration of the untouched string is almost the same as if it had been hit by the hammer. That's stretches my incredulity.

I should probably look up the acoustical energy transfer function via sympathetic vibration and do a little calculation here, but I am just not buying it for now...
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/26/19 11:20 AM

Tyrone, you might have to re-read this entire thread, including the reference to Philip's answer in the Pianoteq thread which is not so much about Pianoteq but rather about how real grand pianos are set so that the una-corda pedal moves the keyboard in such a way that the hammer strikes two out of three strings in the same hammer grooves, but only shifted. Which preserves the hammers, but makes the effect very subtle. Philip himself preferred that approach. There's no consensus on what is a good implementation of una-corda, but it seems it's not rare for this effect to be too too subtle.
Posted By: pianophil

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/26/19 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Tyrone, you might have to re-read this entire thread, including the reference to Philip's answer in the Pianoteq thread which is not so much about Pianoteq but rather about how real grand pianos are set so that the una-corda pedal moves the keyboard in such a way that the hammer strikes two out of three strings in the same hammer grooves, but only shifted. Which preserves the hammers, but makes the effect very subtle. Philip himself preferred that approach. There's no consensus on what is a good implementation of una-corda, but it seems it's not rare for this effect to be too too subtle.


Not exactly: when shifted via una corda pedal, the hammer usually strikes the three strings, not in the grooves but on the contrary between the grooves where the felt is softer. And the left string is hit by the edge of the hammer. Hitting two of the three strings inside the grooves as you say is another possibility, but not much liked because it damages the hammer (a pianist using often the una corda would make the two left grooves deeper than the right one, it would become a real issue when not using the una corda).

Posted By: CyberGene

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/26/19 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by pianophil
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Tyrone, you might have to re-read this entire thread, including the reference to Philip's answer in the Pianoteq thread which is not so much about Pianoteq but rather about how real grand pianos are set so that the una-corda pedal moves the keyboard in such a way that the hammer strikes two out of three strings in the same hammer grooves, but only shifted. Which preserves the hammers, but makes the effect very subtle. Philip himself preferred that approach. There's no consensus on what is a good implementation of una-corda, but it seems it's not rare for this effect to be too too subtle.


Not exactly: when shifted via una corda pedal, the hammer usually strikes the three strings, not in the grooves but on the contrary between the grooves where the felt is softer. And the left string is hit by the edge of the hammer. Hitting two of the three strings inside the grooves as you say is another possibility, but not much liked because it damages the hammer (a pianist using often the una corda would make the two left grooves deeper than the right one, it would become a real issue when not using the una corda).


Ahh, thanks for clarification, I have misunderstood your post in the Pianoteq thread.
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/26/19 12:05 PM

If the hammer strikes all three strings when using the una corda then something is wrong or out of alignment. The hammer should only strike two strings on a three-string unison.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/26/19 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
If the hammer strikes all three strings when using the una corda then something is wrong or out of alignment. The hammer should only strike two strings on a three-string unison.

Also, for the hammer to hit all 3 strings would change the quality of the sound (because it would hit the fluffier part of the hammer), but probably not the volume. Is this what was intended by the pedal? Seems like they should rename the pedal if it is going to behave in a different way from what it was originally meant to do.
Posted By: pianophil

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/26/19 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
If the hammer strikes all three strings when using the una corda then something is wrong or out of alignment. The hammer should only strike two strings on a three-string unison.

Also, for the hammer to hit all 3 strings would change the quality of the sound (because it would hit the fluffier part of the hammer), but probably not the volume. Is this what was intended by the pedal? Seems like they should rename the pedal if it is going to behave in a different way from what it was originally meant to do.


It is a matter of taste. You can get a very nice sound when two strings are hit in the middle of the grooves and the third one (the left string) by the edge of the hammer (it adds some 'zing' to the sound). Hitting two strings is another possibility, but it is better not to fall in the grooves to avoid an irregular wear of the hammer. Hence you must go a bit farther to the right. This requires a very well regulated piano as you get closer to the neighboring note.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/26/19 12:58 PM

How about half-pedaling the una-corda pedal? Pressing it fully would move the keyboard one full string-length to the right. And then by half-pedaling the pianist may produce varioius effect such as that "between the groves" strike and/or edge-strike to produce a zing, etc.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/26/19 01:09 PM

It also depends on the wear on the hammers. If regulated the way Phil describes, there will be very little difference between normal and una cords on a brand new piano with ungrooved, unhardened hammer felts. Three strings being struck on soft felt in either case. On a piano that's been played for a few months or years, the felts will have compressed at the grooves, and the una corda becomes more prominent.

My guess is the reference CFX at Yamaha was probably a brand new specimen that the Yamaha techs had their pick of to use as reference, whereas Garritan and other VSTs chose their piano from a library of existing, well-played but well-regulated instruments.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/26/19 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
It also depends on the wear on the hammers. If regulated the way Phil describes, there will be very little difference between normal and una cords on a brand new piano with ungrooved, unhardened hammer felts. Three strings being struck on soft felt in either case. On a piano that's been played for a few months or years, the felts will have compressed at the grooves, and the una corda becomes more prominent.

My guess is the reference CFX at Yamaha was probably a brand new specimen that the Yamaha techs had their pick of to use as reference, whereas Garritan and other VSTs chose their piano from a library of existing, well-played but well-regulated instruments.

Ok. I don't want my N1X to be a new piano any more. How can I age it so my una corda pedal will start really working?

[Linked Image]
Posted By: magicpiano

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/26/19 03:35 PM

To me it's clear that most digital pianos implementations of the 1-corda pedal are very basic and cheap. They act just as a velocity-limiter and that's very different from the way it works on a real acoustic grand. At least the third pedal is good-looking in my cabinet style digital-piano, even if it does nothing special to the sound, and I can use it effectively with a good VST with 1-corda samples or modeling.
Posted By: pianophil

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/26/19 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
How about half-pedaling the una-corda pedal? Pressing it fully would move the keyboard one full string-length to the right. And then by half-pedaling the pianist may produce varioius effect such as that "between the groves" strike and/or edge-strike to produce a zing, etc.


This is also an interesting possibility, then it is up to the pianist to make his sound. If he is interested in playing that way (not so easy, some practice is needed), I would give 1.5 millimeter more freedom to the action.
Posted By: magicpiano

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/26/19 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by Gombessa
It also depends on the wear on the hammers. If regulated the way Phil describes, there will be very little difference between normal and una cords on a brand new piano with ungrooved, unhardened hammer felts. Three strings being struck on soft felt in either case. On a piano that's been played for a few months or years, the felts will have compressed at the grooves, and the una corda becomes more prominent.

My guess is the reference CFX at Yamaha was probably a brand new specimen that the Yamaha techs had their pick of to use as reference, whereas Garritan and other VSTs chose their piano from a library of existing, well-played but well-regulated instruments.

Ok. I don't want my N1X to be a new piano any more. How can I age it so my una corda pedal will start really working?

You should have an option to make the effect(?) more strong. On my digital is set at 3/10 and it does nearly nothing. If I set it at 7 or 8/10 I hear clearly the velocity limiter in action when I press the keys harder.
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/26/19 05:59 PM

Really? Why sweat it?
Just look at the pedals on a used piano.
The damper is worn with no shine at all to the brass.
The una corda is near pristine. It's just not used very much.
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Ok. I don't want my N1X to be a new piano any more. How can I age it so my una corda pedal will start really working?
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/26/19 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by magicpiano
You should have an option to make the effect(?) more strong. On my digital is set at 3/10 and it does nearly nothing. If I set it at 7 or 8/10 I hear clearly the velocity limiter in action when I press the keys harder.


Yes, you can usually change the intensity of the effect, but as you mention, I would expect that only modifies the note-on velocity. If we're thinking about how the una corda works, I would think a stronger una corda effect would also decrease a "hammer hardness" setting if the DP has that?
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/26/19 07:49 PM

The una chorda on my teachers acoustic grand is not subtle at all, it makes a distinctly different sound, and is noticeably softer (aside from the excitement of the whole keyboard moving over to the left!) As I mentioned in the N1X thread, for all intents and purposes I can't tell if the N1X una chorda is working. Playing a repeated note or set of notes with consistent velocity, I can't detect any difference between when it's on or off. This came up because my teacher was suggesting I use it for one of my pieces last night so I tried it at home and it effectively did nothing.

There's no adjustment for depth on it, however I'm curious if it's somehow being affected by IAC. I'm going to try turning it off tonight and see if there is a difference.
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/26/19 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Really? Why sweat it?
Just look at the pedals on a used piano.
The damper is worn with no shine at all to the brass.
The una corda is near pristine. It's just not used very much.


All of the professionals in my piano meetup use the una chorda constantly (and often subconsciously I found out.) It was explained that particularly when playing a grand in a small room (our meetups are in peoples homes) it's vital to moderate the sound to fit the room. Mortals like myself hardly use it at all, but now I have to so I'd like it to work frown
Posted By: magicpiano

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/26/19 08:06 PM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by magicpiano
You should have an option to make the effect(?) more strong. On my digital is set at 3/10 and it does nearly nothing. If I set it at 7 or 8/10 I hear clearly the velocity limiter in action when I press the keys harder.


Yes, you can usually change the intensity of the effect, but as you mention, I would expect that only modifies the note-on velocity. If we're thinking about how the una corda works, I would think a stronger una corda effect would also decrease a "hammer hardness" setting if the DP has that?
That would be smart to make the sound a little more soft (but still very far from what happens in the real thing). But from what I hear, I feel just a velocity "limiter" when I depress the left pedal. No other timbral changes...

I'm curious to know what happens on Roland modeled pianos when you press the left pedal. Just a velocity limiter or they modeled the 1-corda sound? Recently I went back to work on my hobby project of a modeled piano synth. In my synth every single string is modeled, so it would be very easy to switch to 1-corda sound... I should just turn off the strings that should not be hit by the hammer!
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/26/19 08:07 PM

Originally Posted by Chrispy
The una chorda on my teachers acoustic grand is not subtle at all, it makes a distinctly different sound, and is noticeably softer

Same. I heard it this morning on my teacher's grand and the quality of the sound was definitely different when used, and it was a bit softer. She listened to my N1X and couldn't hear any difference.

Originally Posted by Chrispy
As I mentioned in the N1X thread, for all intents and purposes I can't tell if the N1X una chorda is working.

Same.

Originally Posted by Chrispy
This came up because my teacher was suggesting I use it for one of my pieces last night so I tried it at home and it effectively did nothing.

Same.

Originally Posted by Chrispy
There's no adjustment for depth on it, however I'm curious if it's somehow being affected by IAC. I'm going to try turning it off tonight and see if there is a difference.

Let us know.

Originally Posted by Chrispy
All of the professionals in my piano meetup use the una chorda constantly (and often subconsciously I found out.) It was explained that particularly when playing a grand in a small room (our meetups are in peoples homes) it's vital to moderate the sound to fit the room.

I see videos on Youtube of some pianists who not only live on their una corda pedals, they seem to use them in at least 3 positions - up, down, and mid-way:



Quote
Mortals like myself hardly use it at all, but now I have to so I'd like it to work frown

Same!
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/26/19 08:14 PM

Originally Posted by magicpiano
I should just turn off the strings that should not be hit by the hammer!

Are you handling string resonance? Because the string that is not hit by the hammer should have a sympathetic resonance from the one or two that were hit.

Also, as CyberGene pointed out above, the una corda pedal pressed only half-way would be hitting the strings with a softer part of the felt of the hammer which should change the timbre, I'd guess. The pianist above might be doing that because sometimes she presses the una corda pedal all the way down, and other times, only half way. Also for some notes, there is only one string, so the hammer is just shifted to hit that one string with a softer part of the felt.
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/26/19 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I see videos on Youtube of some pianists


Did anyone else find that video to be creepy?
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/26/19 08:44 PM

Originally Posted by Chrispy
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I see videos on Youtube of some pianists
Did anyone else find that video to be creepy?

Wait, you were supposed to be looking at her left foot! wink grin

Is this better? She half-pedals the una corda pedal in this one too:



(BTW, for those that think I am being 'gratuitous', well, maybe I am. laugh But she's honest the only one I've seen half-pedaling the una corda pedal in a video.)
Posted By: magicpiano

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/26/19 08:48 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by magicpiano
I should just turn off the strings that should not be hit by the hammer!

Are you handling string resonance? Because the string that is not hit by the hammer should have a sympathetic resonance from the one or two that were hit.
Yes, that's true, but I think in this case the you would have a weak resonance from a string with almost the same frequency of the adjacent strings, so I don't think this could make a big difference in the generated sound. I plan to model sympathetic string resonances too, but for now it's too soon.
Quote


Also, as CyberGene pointed out above, the una corda pedal pressed only half-way would be hitting the strings with a softer part of the felt of the hammer which should change the timbre, I'd guess. The pianist above might be doing that because sometimes she presses the una corda pedal all the way down, and other times, only half way. Also for some notes, there is only one string, so the hammer is just shifted to hit that one string with a softer part of the felt.
Of course the way the hammer hits the string could change (drastically, sometimes) the timbre. I'm trying to model that too (the way the hammer hits the string) so that you could have virtually infinite timbre variations of a vibrating string sound.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/26/19 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by magicpiano
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by magicpiano
I should just turn off the strings that should not be hit by the hammer!

Are you handling string resonance? Because the string that is not hit by the hammer should have a sympathetic resonance from the one or two that were hit.
Yes, that's true, but I think in this case the you would have a weak resonance from a string with almost the same frequency of the adjacent strings, so I don't think this could make a big difference in the generated sound. I plan to model sympathetic string resonances too, but for now it's too soon.

Actually it would because string resonance contributes to the timbre of the note.
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/26/19 09:30 PM

Thanks for the information. But does anyone here need help finding something to look at in that video? smile
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Wait, you were supposed to be looking at her left foot!
Posted By: magicpiano

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/26/19 09:42 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by magicpiano
I should just turn off the strings that should not be hit by the hammer!

Are you handling string resonance? Because the string that is not hit by the hammer should have a sympathetic resonance from the one or two that were hit.
Yes, that's true, but I think in this case the you would have a weak resonance from a string with almost the same frequency of the adjacent strings, so I don't think this could make a big difference in the generated sound. I plan to model sympathetic string resonances too, but for now it's too soon.

Actually it would because string resonance contributes to the timbre of the note.

Being that the 3 strings of a same note resonate at (nearly) the same frequency, each one of those 3 strings would excite the same sympathetic resonances from the other strings, so I don't think you could hear differences regarding sympathetic resonance if you "muted" the third not-struck string of the same played note.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/26/19 10:09 PM

Originally Posted by Chrispy
The una chorda on my teachers acoustic grand is not subtle at all, it makes a distinctly different sound, and is noticeably softer (aside from the excitement of the whole keyboard moving over to the left!) As I mentioned in the N1X thread, for all intents and purposes I can't tell if the N1X una chorda is working. Playing a repeated note or set of notes with consistent velocity, I can't detect any difference between when it's on or off. This came up because my teacher was suggesting I use it for one of my pieces last night so I tried it at home and it effectively did nothing.


My guess is that the piano of an active teacher gets constant play, especially if students travel to her studio for lessons. Those hammers are well worn and grooved, and over time the natural "unpedaled" sound has brightened up. So when you experience the una corda pedal on that piano, the difference is much more drastic, especially compared to a new grand you may find on a showroom floor.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/26/19 10:11 PM

Originally Posted by magicpiano
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Are you handling string resonance? Because the string that is not hit by the hammer should have a sympathetic resonance from the one or two that were hit.
Yes, that's true, but I think in this case the you would have a weak resonance from a string with almost the same frequency of the adjacent strings, so I don't think this could make a big difference in the generated sound. I plan to model sympathetic string resonances too, but for now it's too soon.
Actually it would because string resonance contributes to the timbre of the note.
Being that the 3 strings of a same note resonate at (nearly) the same frequency, each one of those 3 strings would excite the same sympathetic resonances from the other strings, so I don't think you could hear differences regarding sympathetic resonance if you "muted" the third not-struck string of the same played note.

Did you read my link on aliquot stringing? That's why some VSTs simulate aliquot resonance.

(Now, that said, I think it is the simulation of a defect.)
Posted By: magicpiano

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/26/19 11:15 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Did you read my link on aliquot stringing? That's why some VSTs simulate aliquot resonance.
I know what aliquot strings are, but I don't see how this could invalidate what I wrote before. If in my model I disabled 1 of 3 strings of a note, and supposing I modeled aliquot strings too, these should resonate even when I disable 1 string of 3 for each note, being that aliquot strings are separated from the other normal strings. Unless for "aliquot" strings you meant the "duplex scaling" system invented by Steinway, that doesn't use separated strings, but the final portion of each string through a sort of double bridging system. Anyway I have neither of those two different aliquot systems implemented, so it doesn't matter... I have to learn to walk before I can run... laughAliquot resonance is an embellishment to the sound, is not a defect. Current pianos sound better than pianos made in the time of Beethoven, because now they have all those little details that first pianos had not. Of course, it's your right to think that a piano produced in 1800 era sounded better than a current Steinway. Personally I think that current grand pianos sound A LOT better.

That's a piano from 1820:

Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/26/19 11:17 PM

The "authorities" would disagree with you. But I don't. It's a defect.
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Did you read my link on aliquot stringing? That's why some VSTs simulate aliquot resonance.
(Now, that said, I think it is the simulation of a defect.
Just as with the pedal noises ... I don't want it simulated. Rather, it ought to be eliminated.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/26/19 11:28 PM

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
The "authorities" would disagree with you. But I don't. It's a defect.
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Did you read my link on aliquot stringing? That's why some VSTs simulate aliquot resonance.
(Now, that said, I think it is the simulation of a defect.
Just as with the pedal noises ... I don't want it simulated. Rather, it ought to be eliminated.

+1!!! thumb
Posted By: Morodiene

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/27/19 02:35 PM

I find it odd that you can't adjust the effectiveness of the soft pedal on the N1X. Have you tried contacting your dealer or Yamaha directly about this? Perhaps it's an issue that needs addressing. Or it could be a defect. Can you try it with Pianoteq or some other VST that has adjustable settings for una corda to make sure your pedal is sending a signal?
Posted By: magicpiano

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/27/19 07:33 PM

I checked the manual of the N1X and I didn't find an option to change the effectiveness of the soft pedal... That's very strange! Of course if you use a VST it should work well (at the end of the day it's just an ON/OFF pedal), but it's strange that on a top-model digital piano there isn't such an option.
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/27/19 07:40 PM

I don't think the lack of an adjustment is odd.
I think it's peculiar that the fixed setting is wrong, or claimed to be so.
Posted By: magicpiano

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/27/19 09:05 PM

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I don't think the lack of an adjustment is odd.
I think it's peculiar that the fixed setting is wrong, or claimed to be so.

If the behavior of the left pedal on a real acoustic depends from the way the piano is built and set, all the more reason to make it an editable parameter on a digital piano, so that each user set the option as he/she prefers.
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/27/19 10:43 PM

Having too many adjustments simply means that the engineers haven't done their job.
Posted By: magicpiano

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/28/19 08:20 AM

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Having too many adjustments simply means that the engineers haven't done their job.

I would partially agree with you (but just for the pedal, not for all the piano settings that I like to customize) if the 1-corda pedal effect was implemented with 1-corda samples. Being that AFAIK they implemented this just as a stupid velocity limiter, at least I expect I can change this upper limit with a simple option. I can do that on my CN37 (which costs ~5 times less than an N1X !!).
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/28/19 08:33 AM

I guess the response to that is that you can find features on $25 you keyboards that aren't in an N1X too, just as you can find features on Power Wheels trucks that you can't get on F1 racing cars smile
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/28/19 08:51 AM

Typical PW stuff smile Una-corda on N1X works but is subtle. And appears to be how it works on a new grand piano. If you don’t like that you buy a CN37. But it becomes a CN37 and not a N1X anymore. If you know what I mean.
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/28/19 08:56 AM

Funny. smile So I think I'll bring out my very old TV set from the 1970s. At least it has horizontal hold and vertical hold controls. I really miss those! They've been gone for over forty years.
Originally Posted by Gombessa
I guess the response to that is that you can find features on $25 you keyboards that aren't in an N1X too, just as you can find features on Power Wheels trucks that you can't get on F1 racing cars smile
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/28/19 09:05 AM

I like how the N1X doesn’t remember most of the settings and would revert to default on power on. I like it’s difficult to change settings. I don’t change anything because the default ones are perfect. I may be a minority but I like to think my N1X is like an acoustic piano. No settings, no nothing, you turn it on and play piano. And it’s perfect as such smile
Posted By: magicpiano

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/28/19 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
I guess the response to that is that you can find features on $25 you keyboards that aren't in an N1X too, just as you can find features on Power Wheels trucks that you can't get on F1 racing cars smile

It's not that a CN37 is a toy and the N1X is a F1 racing car... Of course the N1X globally speaking is much better (better action, better speakers, better design, etc.) otherwise it would not cost 5 times more, but AFAIK you can play difficult pieces on both of them.
And, being digital instruments, I expect from both of them that you can customize as many settings as possible. To me, the more options I can customize the better is. That's the good thing of a digital: easy customization. Something that on a real acoustic you could get (partially) only by calling a professional piano tuner (and pay him many many $$$).

Maybe there are some pepole that would like more just an ON/OFF digital instrument where you cannot change anything. I am at the exact opposite of this line of thought. If I could change the source code of the internal piano engine to better adapt it to my needs or to correct bugs, creating new options, etc., I would do that too! laugh
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/28/19 10:45 AM

But can you play "big time concertos"? smile
Originally Posted by magicpiano
... you can play difficult pieces on both of them.
Posted By: JoBert

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/28/19 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
I like how the N1X doesn’t remember most of the settings and would revert to default on power on. I like it’s difficult to change settings. I don’t change anything because the default ones are perfect. I may be a minority but I like to think my N1X is like an acoustic piano. No settings, no nothing, you turn it on and play piano. And it’s perfect as such smile

I know that your feathers are not easily ruffled, so I think you'll be able to take it if I say: Sorry, but that sounds like a severe case of the fox saying that he doesn't want the grapes anyway, because surely they are sour and won't taste good.
Or as we in Germany say "du redest dir die Unzulänglichkeiten des N1X schön" (roughly: "you talk yourself into believing that the drawbacks of the N1X are beautiful").

Your ideal of having a digital piano that you "turn on and play, just like an acoustic" is not precluded by also having changeable (and storeable) settings. Even a piano that has these features can easily be used in the "turn on and play" fashion - no one is forcing you to fiddle with the settings, just because they are available. Actually, I think it's the other way round: A piano with a well thought out and user friendly settings system, that also allows to store and automatically recall settings upon startup, is better for the "turn on and play" use case than one that doesn't retain its settings upon restart (unless you are among the very few people who find exactly the default settings the perfect settings).

Consider a hypothetical N1Y, that is exactly like the N1X, but it also allows you to easily store the current settings for recall after restart.

Now, for that percentage of people who think that the default settings are perfect, the N1X and N1Y are essentially the same and both are equally capable of supporting the use case of "turn on and play". Just ignore the settings options on the N1Y and it behaves exactly like a N1X when you turn it on.

But those people who want a slight change to the defaults (I think Tyrone has the reverb off, for example?), for those people the N1Y is better for "turn on and play" than the N1X. They can fiddle with the settings once, to find their own preference (which might differ from that of the Yamaha engineers'), then store it once, and then forget about it. From then on, they can turn on the piano and play with their own preferred settings, while their poor cousin who only got the N1X has to change to his preferred settings after each power up (so then he resorts to never switching off the piano).

So the N1Y supports "turn on and play" for all types of users, while the N1X only supports it for some.

Wouldn't then the N1Y be the better piano, from the point of view of a person who likes his piano to be a "turn on and play" instrument?
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/28/19 11:03 AM

I, too, want a digital that doesn't need buttons. I hate gadgets.
The ideal digital will have a volume control. And only 88+3 other controls. Simple.
Posted By: magicpiano

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/28/19 11:20 AM

Even if you call a piano tuner to adjust the hardness of the hammers (or other things) in a real acoustic, then the acoustic instrument will keep these settings (well, at least for many months of everyday playing, considering the wearing...). I would be very upset if I could not store and auto-recall at power-on my preferred settings in my digital piano. It would be better to not have the option at all, instead that having to change it every time I turn on the digital instrument. This would make me crazy!
Posted By: magicpiano

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/28/19 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Typical PW stuff smile Una-corda on N1X works but is subtle. And appears to be how it works on a new grand piano.[...]
I'm not know if this is the case... Many people say that on an acoustic grand the 1-corda pedal effect is not so subtle... For sure the timbre clearly changes (because less strings are struck) and this doesn't happen on most digital pianos.
Posted By: magicpiano

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/28/19 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
But can you play "big time concertos"? smile
Originally Posted by magicpiano
... you can play difficult pieces on both of them.
What do you mean for "big time concertos"?
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/28/19 11:31 AM

As I said, I’m in the minority smile It so just happens that Yamaha did everything right, at least to my taste/understanding. I found my perfect piano, as is, with no need to tweak it, and naturally I’m defensive of it. Other people may disagree. Only future will tell whether N1X with its limited capability of storing settings and lack of una-corda level setting will turn into a commercial failure. My frustration comes rather from generic comments such as: configurable pianos are good, hence non-configurable pianos are bad.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/28/19 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I, too, want a digital that doesn't need buttons. I hate gadgets.
The ideal digital will have a volume control. And only 88+3 other controls. Simple.


What about ditching the power button for Face ID?
I’d also go a step further and remove the volume knob. The volume can be raised/lowered by using conductor-type gestures. All other parameters can be handled by Alexa! wink
Posted By: magicpiano

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/28/19 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I, too, want a digital that doesn't need buttons. I hate gadgets.
The ideal digital will have a volume control. And only 88+3 other controls. Simple.
You can cover the buttons with a wood panel, so you don't see them anymore. smile Roland LX series already do that with the sliding cover. Some Kawai CS pianos make that with a flippable panel on the lcd+buttons.
Or you can consider to buy a VPC1. It has just 88 wooden keys and nothing more... The volume knob neither! laugh
Posted By: magicpiano

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/28/19 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
As I said, I’m in the minority smile It so just happens that Yamaha did everything right, at least to my taste/understanding. I found my perfect piano, as is, with no need to tweak it, and naturally I’m defensive of it. Other people may disagree. Only future will tell whether N1X with its limited capability of storing settings and lack of una-corda level setting will turn into a commercial failure. My frustration comes rather from generic comments such as: configurable pianos are good, hence non-configurable pianos are bad.

If you are happy with your digital piano, no one can dispute this fact and I'm happy for you.

But, generally speaking, if in a shop you could choice between an N1X that doesn't store its settings and an N1X that can store and auto-reload at power-on all its settings, without changes in price, what version you would buy?
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/28/19 11:46 AM

My ES7 was much more configurable than N1X. But crucially I never made peace with its touch response. Normal touch was over-sensitive. Heavy touch was good but it hampered timbre change. So, a very configurable piano that I could never make feel good and ultimately switched to Garritan CFX. Is a configurable piano good? Depends. It may have 1000 options but lack the one you need. Is a non-configurable piano bad? Depends. It may have no options to configure but play perfect. Which is better?
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/28/19 11:57 AM

The only setting it would need to store is the choice of piano. (There are two in the N1X, right?)

But the only button on the control panel would be the piano A / piano B button.
So I wouldn't worry if that setting were not retained. I'd just turn on the piano and press a button to switch voices.
Originally Posted by magicpiano
... if in a shop you could choice between an N1X that doesn't store its settings and an N1X that can store and auto-reload at power-on all its settings, without changes in price, what version you would buy?
Posted By: magicpiano

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/28/19 12:35 PM

Neither of you (CyberGene and MacMacMac) has given a direct answer to my question. This itself answered my question. laugh
Posted By: magicpiano

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/28/19 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
My ES7 was much more configurable than N1X. But crucially I never made peace with its touch response. Normal touch was over-sensitive. Heavy touch was good but it hampered timbre change.
My CN37 with Normal touch is oversensitive too (but just from ppp to mp, then it's good). I think this is a bad design choice from Kawai, in their low/middle-range products. I guess they prefer to make an instrument that sounds "big" without too much effort, so that in a showroom it can be louder than its competitors, instead of making it more realistic. Of course that's just my opinion, I don't want to offend anyone.
Anyway, I solved this problem with a user customized touch curve I made on my PC and then imported on the CN37. Now I can be expressive in my playing. I can play in the pp range consistently, but if I want I can play loud too without too much effort. Before I could not. If my digital hadn't had the ability to make me create an user-customized touch curve, I would have been unhappy with it and probably I would have sold it.
Now you could say: that's because your digital was not well designed in its default settings... But the point is: I can customize the settings and adapt it to my needs without having to spend 5 times its price just to get a better default velocity curve! So, I think the (big) effort I made to create my customized velocity curve was well worth it (and btw my piano remembers my preferred customized velocity curve on power-on). Now I wouldn't be very surprised if I would feel better playing on my synthetic keyboard with my customized curve than on a wooden action at the default velocity curve set by the manufacturer, who knows!
Quote


So, a very configurable piano that I could never make feel good and ultimately switched to Garritan CFX. Is a configurable piano good? Depends. It may have 1000 options but lack the one you need. Is a non-configurable piano bad? Depends. It may have no options to configure but play perfect. Which is better?
To me they are both bad. Each one for different reasons. But in life, everything is a compromise, so I think it's impossible (or at least extremely rare) that you can have "all" you desire in a single product. And my needs are different from your needs, so there is not an objective answer. We could just make a statistic, after a period of time, to see if some choices were better than other ones. But even that would be just a marketing statistic... Not always the best-selling product is the real best product.
But everything being equal, it is obvious that more customization ability is better than none at all.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/28/19 02:13 PM

I almost never use the controls on my piano since it arrived in my home. Tried the Bosendorfer voice for the first time at home this past weekend. I leave my piano set to be always on so it doesn't lose any settings, and I get mad when it gets turned off (my housekeeper accidentally unplugged it recently and I became mad at her). So I am definitely not someone interested in twiddling the knobs. That said, this una corda pedal is just broken either in fact or how it is set, and this flaw is compounded by the fact that Yamaha hasn't given us any way to change this, except by using a VST. So I am going to open a ticket on this issue on Monday.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/28/19 04:12 PM

Tyrone, so is the pedal not sending MIDI data? I missed that.

Originally Posted by magicpiano
Neither of you (CyberGene and MacMacMac) has given a direct answer to my question. This itself answered my question. laugh

That was a question with an assumption. I don’t answer those. It’s like asking me: did you kill your wife because you didn’t like her dress or because you didn’t like her hairstyle? But I didn’t kill my wife smile And nobody did. She’s alive smile

The N1X stores settings. Not all of them. For instance it doesn’t store its touch response and will revert to normal on restart. Would I have preferred if it did. No, my daughter would inadvertently change it for instance and touch response is a crucial thing. Can you change touch response of an acoustic piano? No. It should be the one measured by Yamaha. The guys know what they do. They make one of the best concert grand pianos in the world, so they must know about what’s the only proper touch response for a given physical action and set of samples. Kawai guys on the other hand don’t. At least those working on CA and ES series. Don’t know about NV10, I hope they asked their Shigeru artisans.
Posted By: magicpiano

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/28/19 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
That was a question with an assumption. I don’t answer those. It’s like asking me: did you kill your wife because you didn’t like her dress or because you didn’t like her hairstyle? But I didn’t kill my wife smile And nobody did. She’s alive smile

The example you make (apart from being very creepy laugh ) is not fitting well, because in my question I didn't ask "why you did something"... There is no assumption you did something. I just asked "what you would do if you could choice between 2 identical products apart that one could store all the settings you want and the other not". It was supposed to be a rhetorical question, but from what I read here, maybe it's not:
Quote

The N1X stores settings. Not all of them. For instance it doesn’t store its touch response and will revert to normal on restart. Would I have preferred if it did. No, my daughter would inadvertently change it for instance and touch response is a crucial thing.
I hope this is not the reason why Yamaha didn't give you the ability to store all the settings... Now manufacturers should worry about pranks of children when they design their piano interfaces, more than the user customization needs?
Quote


Can you change touch response of an acoustic piano? No.
If you are a professional piano tuner I think you can change touch response. For example changing the hardness of the hammers, or their distance from the strings. Of course a normal piano user cannot do that, but this is just one of the few advantages of a digital piano over an acoustic. You have not to be a pro-piano-tuner to change how the digital piano responds.
Quote
It should be the one measured by Yamaha. The guys know what they do. They make one of the best concert grand pianos in the world, so they must know about what’s the only proper touch response for a given physical action and set of samples. Kawai guys on the other hand don’t. At least those working on CA and ES series. Don’t know about NV10, I hope they asked their Shigeru artisans.
Add the CN series to the list too. So you tried the touch response of the CA series too? Have you tried with medium-range Yamaha digital pianos if the default touch response is similar to that of the N1X?
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/28/19 07:38 PM

My example wasn’t meant to be an analogy wink It was intentionally creepy to show how this types of questions are usually used in criminal investigations to imply guilt if one doesn’t answer. And he doesn’t answer because the question is wrongly assumed and doesn’t leave the option for a discussion. The wrong assumption was the N1X doesn’t store settings at all.

I hope you were mocking me about my kid example smile Of course it isn’t meant as a kid protection. It’s meant to restore the touch response to the only normal one: the default, EVEN if it has been changed, temporarily due to experimentation or inadvertently through the menu (or your kid). I don’t like the the touch is at all configurable on the N1X. But since it is, I’m worried it may get changed. But since it reverts to default after a restart, that gives me a peace of mind.

As to hammer hardness, it doesn’t change touch. It only changes tone. You have that in the N1X and it’s called brilliance and is preserved across restarts.

Distance from strings is called blow distance and is strictly specified by manufacturers and technicians don’t change it. Instead, they observe it strictly if it drifts for some reason. The only known example of intentionally changed blow distance is Glenn Gould piano, so that it resembles a harpsichord, but it created the infamous occasional double notes, AKA hiccups.

You can change touch through changing the hammers but I don’t think anybody does that to a brand new piano, it doesn’t make sense. Or you can change touch by adding/removing lead weights in the keys but you can do that to the N1X and it’s a mechanical change which can’t be emulated by only changing velocity mapping.

CA-series: yes, they suffer from this too sensitive default touch at least from CA63 that I owned until now. I’ve tested all the newer models and it’s always like that.
Posted By: magicpiano

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/28/19 08:41 PM

On my DP there is an option: "Restore factory defaults". If I don't like factory defaults but I don't want to risk that I accidentally change something I already changed before and I liked (or someone made a prank on me laugh ), I save all my settings on 2 files on my USB pendrive: a first file is for the general settings of the digital piano; a second file is for the specific settings of my preferred instrument. And I can even lock the buttons on the panel, so that it should be very difficult for little children to unlock it. So, all your worries (and children pranks) on my DP are covered by some simple options that honestly I thought they were in every digital piano today (at least from medium-range to top-class digital piano), but now in this forum I found out that this is not the case and so I'm a little disappointed from a technological point of view (even if I don't have an N1X).
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/28/19 09:18 PM

But I don’t need all that on my N1X. That’s all I have been trying to say the whole time. All is perfect out of the box. I don’t have to change settings, store on USB drive, restore from USB drive, lock, unlock. I just play it smile It’s marketed as a piano with real grand piano action which means its users are very serious about realistic acoustic piano-like experience. And they get it. CN, ES, CA are rather multipurpose pianos, my humble ES7 even had various amp simulations for the Rhodes piano as well as great vintage effects such as tremolo and phaser, etc. and it was €1500. But I don’t need not expect that in my N1X. The fact it is 5 times more expensive doesn’t mean it has to have 5-times more features. I would only agree about reverb. I personally like it as it is but I understand Tyrone or anyone else who might want to preserve his changes. I think it stores either the reverb depth or it’s state on/off but I have to check that. Maybe Yamaha can provide it through a firmware update. If that’s a deal breaker for you and a CN37 is more appealing then of course that means CN37 is the better instrument for you smile
Posted By: Pete14

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/28/19 09:26 PM

I understand that the N1X does not need all the bells and whistles, but why can’t I, at least, ring the bells that are included? I just don’t see the logic in being able to save some parameters yet not others.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/28/19 09:52 PM

Pete, it’s an interesting question smile I have also asked myself. Yamaha can’t implement it? Their developers are not experienced? Product designers are mad? I don’t believe so. There’s only one logical explanation for me. Maybe I’m wrong but I think Yamaha need to make sure the piano is as close to defaults as possible. Maybe because they spent a lot in making these defaults as close to what they consider the optimal piano experience. How often have you played digital pianos in stores that have been screwed up by other people playing with settings? And when you market a premium piano you can’t risk that.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/28/19 09:54 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Pete, it’s an interesting question smile I have also asked myself. Yamaha can’t implement it? Their developers are not experienced? Product designers are mad? I don’t believe so. There’s only one logical explanation for me. Maybe I’m wrong but I think Yamaha need to make sure the piano is as close to defaults as possible. Maybe because they spent a lot in making these defaults so close to what they consider the optimal piano experience. How often have you played digital pianos in a stores that have been screwed up by other people playing with settings? And when you market a premium piano you can’t risk that.

Then I really don't understand why they don't allow reverb to be saved. The reverb setting is only partly a setting of the piano. Mainly, the reverb setting is the setting of the room. And the room is external to the piano. The room is not under the control of Yamaha.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/28/19 09:59 PM

How about someone dialing a cathedral reverb before you go and test the N1X? And since it’s a serious piano, it won’t be played by those geeks like us here. It will be played by pianists. They don’t know how to change settings. They will just go and buy the NV10 next to it because it would be with that old firmware which due to bug wasn’t saving settings despite having 1000 settings and a save function wink Just kidding!
Posted By: magicpiano

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/28/19 10:05 PM

CyberGene I am not trying to convince you that your DP is bad. Absolutely not. I'm sure it sounds and feels very good and you have much fun with it.
But I don't understand some design choices of your DP. I understand this product would like to "emulate" an acoustic feeling more than other products, but then it should not have options at all... Just ON/OFF and the volume slider. If you allow the user to change some parameters, then make them storable, it's just common sense! And I don't understand why some options are storable and some others not...
Posted By: Pete14

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/28/19 10:07 PM

What about a feature that allows the user to decide whether the piano resets to default upon on/off.
It would make sense for dealers to have the piano set to ‘reset’, so that customers experience what Yamaha has deemed the perfect piano upon switch-on; however, once you buy the piano you can decide whether you’d like to save your settings or not. I have a feeling that most people would opt for saving rather than defaulting.
For those who do not feel that anything needs to be changed/saved, great! But I feel that most digital pianos benefit from some tweaking even if the default is “perfect”.
Yes, the N1X might sound perfect at a Yamaha acoustically treated studio, but not so great in my van down by the river. It could turn out that my van amplifies some frequencies yet dampens others, so being able to go in there and make this “perfect” piano fit the acoustics of my beat up van is a plus. If I have to do this every time I boot up, it kinda sucks.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/28/19 10:31 PM

The easiest way to make Yamaha do it is to complain and bash on forums like this one. Which is what you currently do smile They used to be without a competition until NV10 came out. And while it comes with much more functions it was marred by a few teething problems so Yamaha are still feeling not threatened. As I said, I’m the minority and I couldn’t care less about configurability provided it plays well. When they feel their AG sales are being hurt by people preferring the regular digital pianos instead of AG, they may change. Although I have the odd feeling most people who complain about AG not having this or that wouldn’t purchase it even if it had wink
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/29/19 12:09 AM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
They will just go and buy the NV10 next to it because it would be with that old firmware which due to bug wasn’t saving settings despite having 1000 settings and a save function wink Just kidding!


One of those bugs actually allows you to save settings that shouldn't be savable! We deal with this issue across the river in Hammamatsu as well wink
Posted By: Pete14

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/29/19 12:15 AM

Do you live in a van down by the river...... Hammamatsu? laugh
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/29/19 12:50 AM

Originally Posted by Pete14
Do you live in a van down by the river......

Posted By: Pete14

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/29/19 01:10 AM

LOL! laugh
Posted By: David B

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/29/19 03:27 AM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
As I said, I’m the minority and I couldn’t care less about configurability provided it plays well.


I feel the same way about my N1X. There is really nothing I need to change on it when using the native sounds. I'm still a big Kawai fanboy, but I always had to adjust several parameters in my Kawai digitals to get the sound I was comfortable with. Not so with the N1X. I just turn it on and play.

I've seen people comment on the control panel and the button/key combo adjustments, but since there is nothing to change (for me) it's moot. The control panel is practically invisible.

I like the simplicity of the N1X. There are five piano sounds. There are no swipes, scrolls, multiple menus to navigate, etc., just press the power button and play. What to change a piano sound, press another button. Simple as that.

God Bless,
David
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/29/19 07:04 AM

Woke up this morning and saw this:
[Linked Image]
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/29/19 07:44 AM

You mean ... the N1X is a real piano!?
Originally Posted by David B
There is really nothing I need to change on it when using the native sounds.
I've seen people comment on the control panel and the button/key combo adjustments, but since there is nothing to change (for me) it's moot. The control panel is practically invisible.
I like the simplicity of the N1X. There are five piano sounds. There are no swipes, scrolls, multiple menus to navigate, etc., just press the power button and play. What to change a piano sound, press another button. Simple as that.
Simplicity means that the design team did its job properly.
Posted By: magicpiano

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/29/19 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Woke up this morning and saw this:
[Linked Image]
It's clear to me that she doesn't like the default options... laugh
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/29/19 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Woke up this morning and saw this:
[Linked Image]

She's a lefty too! 3hearts
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/29/19 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Woke up this morning and saw this:
[Linked Image]

She's a lefty too! 3hearts

No, she’s a righty (fortunately) but she puts her watch by imitating her leftist (sic) mother laugh
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/29/19 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Woke up this morning and saw this:
[Linked Image]

She's a lefty too! 3hearts

No, she’s a righty (fortunately) but she puts her watch by imitating her leftist (sic) mother laugh

Well, it sounds like you have one lefty in you house if Mrs. CyberGene is a lefty. That's a 1/2 thumb wink
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/29/19 12:34 PM

Let’s derail this thread again! laugh So, my wife is a lefty but when we were kids (during the communism) it was thought that they should try to reverse these kids and her mom was actively forcing her to do things with the right hand/foot. Some people think this unfortunate coercion led to people being equally good with both hands, while I think it can be thought the other way around: these poor kids are equally clumsy with both hands laugh
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/29/19 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Let’s derail this thread again! laugh So, my wife is a lefty but when we were kids (during the communism) it was thought that they should try to reverse these kids and her mom was actively forcing her to do things with the right hand/foot. Some people think this unfortunate coercion led to people being equally good with both hands, while I think it can be thought the other way around: these poor kids are equally clumsy with both hands laugh

Our family was the same. In our case, it was simply regimented asian thinking. (Chopsticks wielded by a lefty would poke out the eyes of the person seated to your left at dinner... I guess poking out the eyes of the person to the right though, is ok! wink ) 10% of humans are lefties. They've recently found the gene clusters. In China, those 10% have been traditionally forced to learn to use their right hand instead.

Both my sister and I spent time with fingerless mittens taped to our left hands and our left hands tied behind our backs. In the case of my sister, she relented and learned to use her right hand. So now she writes with her right hand but does everything else (cut, kick a ball, throw, etc/) with her left. Nice brain confusion. I resisted fiercely and remain a lefty. One of my school teachers told my parents this was totally wrong what they were doing and got them to stop. Damage already done to my sister. Our younger brother never was subjected to this so he got to be a guilt-free lefty. As to where the genes came from? Turns out our mother was born a lefty and was forced by our grandmother to switch. Each generation oppresses the next.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/29/19 12:48 PM

According to Wikipedia, Chinese traditions of trying to switch left-handed kids to right-handed was mainly due to the writing system and specific writing strokes that are too difficult to execute with the left hand.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/29/19 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
According to Wikipedia, Chinese traditions of trying to switch left-handed kids to right-handed was mainly due to the writing system and specific writing strokes that are too difficult to execute with the left hand.

That is absolutely true - but largely it's not the inability to make the stroke with the other hand, it's because each stroke has an approved shape and using the other hand, the strokes will have the wrong shape which is considered to then be "ugly." Also because traditionally, Chinese would write with brushes leading to smearing if one is a lefty.

[Linked Image]

However, you would try to switch your children when the handedness would first appear. And that was often before they would learn to write. So instead of telling them about the more complex writing issues, they would try to make the issue more visceral by describing chopsticks in the eyes. Lovely, eh?
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/29/19 12:56 PM

LOL laugh I think Asian cultures are obsessed with symmetry, so yes, I can kind of get the chopstick in the eye metaphor as a symmetry spoiler wink
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/29/19 03:49 PM

I guess ball-point pens didn't catch on in the Orient?

As for the UI ... that photo gives us one more reason to think the display should have a cover.
Don't some of these pianos have a cover on that display? Which ones?
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/29/19 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I guess ball-point pens didn't catch on in the Orient?

The Japanese invented a fountain brush. Does that count?

[Linked Image]
Posted By: magicpiano

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/29/19 04:24 PM

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
[...]As for the UI ... that photo gives us one more reason to think the display should have a cover.
Don't some of these pianos have a cover on that display? Which ones?

Kawai CS-10 and CS-11.
[Linked Image]
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/29/19 06:06 PM

This is the only thing I really “hate” about the N1X. The panel should have been hidden in a similar fashion to that Kawai or sliding under the keyboard as in the N3X.
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/29/19 06:13 PM

I think there are people out there with great skill at modifying pianos. Someone like that could easily construct a hinged cover plate for the display.

Oh, wait. That somebody is right there. 👆
Posted By: Bosendorff

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? - 09/29/19 06:40 PM

I regulated my grand piano so that when pushed all the way the una corda pedal actually makes the action hit one string less everywhere except of course for the low bass. This of course is not possible on all grands - it depends how it is designed. Another thing is that the una corda pedal doesn't have to be just on or off. On my acoustic, you get a different timbre when it's pushed half way, etc.

Back to digital instruments, you can add the Korg Kronos to the list, as it offers different sample sets for the una corda sounds for two of its four main piano types/brands.
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