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Hi
I m just simply salary man at 30 and now suddenly want to learn more about piano .I'm going to chose my 1st DP and hard to decisive between kawai es110 and casio px-s1000(yamaha p125 and roland f30 is kick out of my list for some reason).
I think i must focus in key action first and as other review es110 have better key action.
Both use 2 sensor in key but casio have software solution to make 2 sensor become virtual 3 sensor .
So confuse , I don't know which one should chosse. Pls help me.
In my opinion, you can't go wrong with Kawai. They excel at having the best action at every price point/category. Also, Bluetooth MIDI is fun.
Kawai ES110
Roland FP10
Originally Posted by navindra
In my opinion, you can't go wrong with Kawai. They excel at having the best action at every price point/category. Also, Bluetooth MIDI is fun.

+1 - true having tried the PXS1000 the Kawai (which I have tried in the past) has the better action out of the two.
Originally Posted by navindra
In my opinion, you can't go wrong with Kawai. They excel at having the best action at every price point/category. Also, Bluetooth MIDI is fun.

Thank you .I know about reputation of Kawai in both key action and the sample sound they made in piano but casio px-s1000 is new and I heared alot about their new feature with 2 sensor..And beside that you remind me about bluetooth MIDI which I already don't know. Hmm so don't need cable to ipad in kawai es110 that is alot of fun .
Originally Posted by jamiecw
Originally Posted by navindra
In my opinion, you can't go wrong with Kawai. They excel at having the best action at every price point/category. Also, Bluetooth MIDI is fun.

+1 - true having tried the PXS1000 the Kawai (which I have tried in the past) has the better action out of the two.

Thank you very much. I alway want to know direct compare between es110 and px-s1000 in key action .You help me alot
Hello begin ẻ,

My recommendation would be to purchase the instrument that you enjoy playing the most, rather than concentrating too much on the thoughts of others.

Also, may I ask why you decided to remove the Roland FP30 and Yamaha P-125 from your list? These are both excellent pianos for the price.

Kind regards,
James
x
Originally Posted by Kawai James

My recommendation would be to purchase the instrument that you enjoy playing the most, rather than concentrating too much on the thoughts of others.


KJ, whilst I do agree with you and all others (myself included) whose advise is "buy what you enjoy" truth of the matter is that sometimes this advice isn't really fit for purpose, especially to those who've never played the piano before/just starting out.

It goes without saying, that if one has never played piano before, there is little in the way of knowing, this piano is better or that one is not as good, especially on touch/action and why would they? It'll be like asking them to recommend a car yet they never drove a car (and picking a car because of it's red or blue doesn't cut it). And that is where these forums come into play, otherwise just have a sticky and auto reply for all new piano queries saying 'buy the one you like the most'.

This only works after one has experience playing (preferably at the very least intermediate level) and have played a variety of pianos to be able to make that sound judgement.
Good point.
Originally Posted by begin ẻ
Hi
I m just simply salary man at 30 and now suddenly want to learn more about piano .I'm going to chose my 1st DP and hard to decisive between kawai es110 and casio px-s1000(yamaha p125 and roland f30 is kick out of my list for some reason).
I think i must focus in key action first and as other review es110 have better key action.
Both use 2 sensor in key but casio have software solution to make 2 sensor become virtual 3 sensor .
So confuse , I don't know which one should chosse. Pls help me.


Hi Begin ẻ,

Every time someone asks about beginners instruments, I post this comment.
Digital pianos depreciate in price faster than cars do. Therefore, rather than spending £600-800 (670 to 890 Euros) on a new beginner board, consider checking out eBay and other online websites (Facebook marketplace, craigs list, gumtree and other local alternatives) to find an intermediate level digital piano that is less than 5 years old.

This way, you get a far better piano for your money!
Also, sometimes you get used deals on these beginner pianos which might save you a few hundred dollars.

Kind regards,

Doug.
The difference between 2-sensor and 3-sensor is unimportant for a new player (and even most advanced players, IMO). Insisting on 3-sensor is like insisting that you must have a grand piano, an upright won't do. I make that comparison specifically because grands have the equivalent of a DP's 3-sensor functionality, while uprights behave more like 2-sensor DPs... the point being that, when it comes to acoustics, far more people play uprights than grands, and are very happy with them, even if they are advanced players. And there are certainly some 2-sensor DPs that I think most would agree are far better than some other 3-sensor DPs. It's just not all that important, especially for a new player. Or to extend your car analogy, it's like someone who has never driven before choosing a car because it has a 6-speed manual transmission instead of a 5-speed. In the list of top ten things to care about, it wouldn't even make the list.

p.s. -- this is not meant to denigrate whatever Casio is doing with their new action, which I haven't tried yet, and might play better regardless of how successfully it does or does not emulate the behavior associated with 3 sensors.
I bought a Kawai CL26, new, as a total beginner years ago...then moved and stoped using it. Then I bought a new ES110.
In both cases, it would literally be years of practice before I can say I need a better instrument.
If you ve never played before and just trying to figure out the notes at first.... like KJ said... you just have to enjoy using it rather than worrying about sensors and other features..
Unless you re a prodigy and start playing Bach in 6 months to a year.... I would with a reasonably priced option you would enjoy and start hitting those keys.
Originally Posted by anotherscott
The difference between 2-sensor and 3-sensor is unimportant for a new player (and even most advanced players, IMO). Insisting on 3-sensor is like insisting that you must have a grand piano, an upright won't do. I make that comparison specifically because grands have the equivalent of a DP's 3-sensor functionality, while uprights behave more like 2-sensor DPs... the point being that, when it comes to acoustics, far more people play uprights than grands, and are very happy with them, even if they are advanced players. And there are certainly some 2-sensor DPs that I think most would agree are far better than some other 3-sensor DPs. It's just not all that important, especially for a new player. Or to extend your car analogy, it's like someone who has never driven before choosing a car because it has a 6-speed manual transmission instead of a 5-speed. In the list of top ten things to care about, it wouldn't even make the list.
Agree 100%. I'm not a very advanced player and I'm dying for an excuse to move up from my ES110, but every time I audition a more expensive model with triple-sensor capability, my trills don't sound any better than they do at home! smile
I had been playing an upright piano for many years, then digital pianos with two sensors. I was so much used to playing trills by releasing the keys fully that I haven't even realized I can play them any other way, it was internalized in my muscle memory. It took me a whole year with my first triple-sensor piano, the ES7, to gradually adjust my technique and play quiet trills near the bottom, without releasing the keys fully. It won't happen overnight. Your "two-sensor" trills won't sound any different on a triple-sensor action. However playing trills on a triple-sensor action or real grand-piano action allows for a much controlled and fluent trills once you know how to take advantage of it. IMO.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Your "two-sensor" trills won't sound any different on a triple-sensor action. However playing trills on a triple-sensor action or real grand-piano action allows for a much controlled and fluent trills once you know how to take advantage of it. IMO.
Thanks for that. Point taken!
Try them in person before you buy and choose the one that feels best to you. I don't think there's a huge amount of difference between digitals at a similar price point. The general rule is that in online discussions the "bias" is *generally* going to be in favor of Kawai, Yamaha and Roland and against Casio. But you should try for yourself.
However, whichever one you choose I would suggest that you get a pedal board as well.
By the way, if I'm not mistaken all the Privia series models have essentially the same action. The PX-S1000 is described as being tri-sensor.
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
The general rule is that in online discussions the "bias" is *generally* going to be in favor of Kawai, Yamaha and Roland and against Casio. But you should try for yourself.


While this is true, personally I think it’s an unfair bias. I think many of us remember the toy pianos Casio released in the past, and can’t get over it.

I’ve had a Kawai MP10 which I had to sell for financial reasons, then a MP7.

While I loved the actions of these, at the time I wasn’t learning to play properly and was just messing around while also playing my synth keyboard.

When I first got the MP10 I thought it was the best keybed I had ever played. But after a few months I found it sort of squishy. Not sure if that’s the right word, it kind of felt like I was pressing keys through a soft sludge. But at the time, all I had played for the previous 30 plus years were synths.

When I got my MP7, I much preferred its keybed to the MP10.

I decided to get a cabinet piano situated away from my PC so that I could concentrate on learning to play, rather than getting distracted by my various VSTs etc.

I went to a piano shop that had both Casio and Kawai, tried a few and while I liked one of the Kawai’s, I also liked the Casio PX 870.

Yes I could feel a difference between them, but in my inexperienced mind, I couldn’t rate one as better than the other.

I went with the Casio, that was December last year. 7 months later I love the feel just as much as the day I bought it.

Sure in years to come as I learn more, I suspect if I went into a piano store and tried all their digitals I would find ones that I can express myself much better on, but there is zero need for me to spend the extra money on that now. Also, I wouldn’t know what to look for at the moment as my playing is just as bad on anything.

From my synth days I can play quickish arpeggios, scales etc, and doing so on my Casio I absolutely love the feel.

While I can understand very experienced players wanting the best, I do feel there’s a little unfair snobbery against Casio.
Casio were for some time the cheapest possible digital pianos with acceptable action (and unacceptable sound but you can use VST-s). However there are now other entry level digital pianos in the same price range with better action and better sound.
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
By the way, if I'm not mistaken all the Privia series models have essentially the same action. The PX-S1000 is described as being tri-sensor.


The PX-S1000 uses a different two sensor keybed, but according to this review it works just as well as, if not better than their tri sensor ones.

https://www.pianodreamers.com/casio-px-s1000-review/

Quote

Casio’s Privia line of digital pianos has been around for a long time. Their Tri Sensor Hammer Action II has been a proven key action that is popular and feels realistic.

The only true complaint people have against concerns bounciness and inherent noisiness (which, to be fair, is barely noticeable during play). Overall, I’ve been happy with the Privia pianos I’ve played through the years.

With the PX-S1000, Casio opted to use a different key action, one that is designed to fit the slimmer chassis. Casio calls this the Smart Scaled Hammer Action.

To be clear, these are no longer triple sensor actions; they are two-sensor actions instead.

Triple sensor actions have been Casio’s mainstay for years. When you press each key, it passes through each of the three sensors, eventually passing the lowermost sensor as you hit the bottom of the key bed.

Once you slowly release the keys, you can retrigger the sound by passing the middle sensor. As such, triple sensor actions offer more accuracy.

Casio opted to go with a new, smart, 2-sensor hammer action due to its better performance showed during thorough tests.

A two-sensor action might seem like a downgrade, but it’s not entirely true.

Casio’s action isn’t called “Smart” for nothing. Between both sensors, a software-based solution determines how deep your keypresses will be.

During play, I found that this two-sensor action is as good, if not better than the three-sensor actions available on previous Privia keyboards.

Judging by fellow reviewer’s thoughts after playing the PX-S1000 at the NAMM show, it seems like the PX-S1000 has enjoyed an unanimously positive reception.

The keys themselves are plastic and simulate ivory and ebony, giving them a textured feel ideal for play.

There’s a subtle grip on each keypress, and that’s something you don’t really expect on affordable keyboards in the PX-S1000’s price bracket.

A primary improvement of this new action is a silent mechanism that makes it one of the quietest key actions in its category.

There are also a few other minor improvements, including reduced bounciness and a slightly redesigned texture on the keys.

Apart from that, the new action felt quite similar to the previous Tri-sensor Scaled Hammer Action II regarding mechanical movement and physics.
Originally Posted by Ojustaboo
[quote=rmns2bseen] I think many of us remember the toy pianos Casio released in the past, and can’t get over it.
.....
While I can understand very experienced players wanting the best, I do feel there’s a little unfair snobbery against Casio.


The only snobbery would come from people who never tried a lot of pianos, have little to no experience and make statements because of hearsay.

Not true in my case, I never grew up on keyboards and have no reason to be snobbish or bias at Casio (I even bought one having liked it at the store and regretted it later, an AP470, good value for the price range but ultimately failed to live up the hype). I simply call it how I see it, and I see that Yamaha, Roland and Kawai (at least the mid-range and above models) are just better (in both sound and action) - I wish people could also accept this rather than just spout out snobbery bias...
Originally Posted by Ojustaboo
The PX-S1000 uses a different two sensor keybed, but according to this review it works just as well as, if not better than their tri sensor ones.

That phrasing may be a bit misleading. Yes, the reviewer feels that "this two-sensor action is as good, if not better than the three-sensor actions available on previous Privia keyboards"... but your re-phrase seems to imply that he thinks it "works just as well" as the previous action in behaving like a three-sensor action, which isn't what he said. Rather, I believe he is saying that the action taken as a whole is as good or better than the previous generation. Plenty of other two-sensor boards over the years have been as good or better than some three sensor boards. Not at three sensor behavior, but at in terms of the overall playing experience. The new Casio may use software to better simulate 3-sensor behavior than what other 2 sensor boards can do, but they still don't behave exactly as 3-sensor boards. (Though again, I don't think that is a particularly necessary feature for most people, either.)
Originally Posted by jamiecw
Originally Posted by Ojustaboo
[quote=rmns2bseen] I think many of us remember the toy pianos Casio released in the past, and can’t get over it.
.....
While I can understand very experienced players wanting the best, I do feel there’s a little unfair snobbery against Casio.


The only snobbery would come from people who never tried a lot of pianos, have little to no experience and make statements because of hearsay.

Not true in my case, I never grew up on keyboards and have no reason to be snobbish or bias at Casio (I even bought one having liked it at the store and regretted it later, an AP470, good value for the price range but ultimately failed to live up the hype). I simply call it how I see it, and I see that Yamaha, Roland and Kawai (at least the mid-range and above models) are just better (in both sound and action) - I wish people could also accept this rather than just spout out snobbery bias...


This I think comes to down to personal preference.

I have the Casio AP-470 and am looking to replace it, but I'm looking to spend a lot more money because I don't think anything in its price range will provide what I want.

I think the sound generator of both Kawai and Yamaha at the similar price point to the AP-470 are better, but I think the speakers and amplifier in the AP-470 are better and better matched to the quality of the sound. The Kawai I had at home before the AP-470 could not deal with the space I had. Speakers and amplifier were too weak and speakers were downward facing. In terms of final sound I think the Casio compared to say the Yamaha Arius models and Kawai KDP series and the CN27 has a better sound.

My biggest problem with the AP-470 is though the key-action feels ok. It has really short pivot length and that for me is the deal breaker. I also find the action to be too light, there is too little resistance to creating high velocities when playing. I have found setting the key touch to hard has helped but it is not a complete solution to the light touch problem and does nothing to fix the short pivot length. So the action feels good to play except near the fallboard but is limiting at being able to control dynamics.

So to me, I don't feel that at the price point the AP-470 it is a bad DP compared to equivalents, I just can't get everything I want from a digital piano at that price point and so must spend more money.
The last time I have tried a Casio tri-sensor keyboard (PX160?), I feel the keys to be very light : they nearly get down with no weight.

The GPxxx series has a better keyboard, but not as good as the N1X like the “hybrid” marketing tag should imply.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Casio were for some time the cheapest possible digital pianos with acceptable action (and unacceptable sound but you can use VST-s). However there are now other entry level digital pianos in the same price range with better action and better sound.

It's a matter of personal taste, but I think the PX-870 is better than the YDP-144 or the KDP-110. The first sentence there is probably the reason for most "anti-Casio bias". Casio is known for "cheap" but solid electronics. Kawai and Yamaha are known as acoustic piano makers. Ergo, Kawai and Yamaha are going to be better in every way. So much that goes into judging whatever musical instrument is fraught with subjectivity. I will grant that the Kawai and Yamaha "entry level" models do look a bit better, but that's just about it. In my opinion. Now, when you go further up in price range and complexity, that's a completely different story.
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Casio were for some time the cheapest possible digital pianos with acceptable action (and unacceptable sound but you can use VST-s). However there are now other entry level digital pianos in the same price range with better action and better sound.

It's a matter of personal taste, but I think the PX-870 is better than the YDP-144 or the KDP-110. The first sentence there is probably the reason for most "anti-Casio bias". Casio is known for "cheap" but solid electronics. Kawai and Yamaha are known as acoustic piano makers. Ergo, Kawai and Yamaha are going to be better in every way. So much that goes into judging whatever musical instrument is fraught with subjectivity. I will grant that the Kawai and Yamaha "entry level" models do look a bit better, but that's just about it. In my opinion.


Just shortlist the models for your budget and head to the store to test the models. You'll find out how those models fair for your personal needs and the question of which is best will resolve itself.

Every manufacturer creates instruments according to a strategy for which they think they can compete well from. It's what suits you that counts!
Originally Posted by Doug M.

Just shortlist the models for your budget and head to the store to test the models. You'll find out how those models fair for your personal needs and the question of which is best will resolve itself.

Every manufacturer creates instruments according to a strategy for which they think they can compete well from. It's what suits you that counts!

Yes, exactly. I think ultimately what I'm trying to say is that *in my opinion* there's not much difference at the "economy" end of the DP spectrum. As you go to the higher end of that spectrum though I think the differences become more marked, and that's where Yamaha, Roland and Kawai rule the roost.
Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by Ojustaboo
The PX-S1000 uses a different two sensor keybed, but according to this review it works just as well as, if not better than their tri sensor ones.

That phrasing may be a bit misleading. Yes, the reviewer feels that "this two-sensor action is as good, if not better than the three-sensor actions available on previous Privia keyboards"... but your re-phrase seems to imply that he thinks it "works just as well" as the previous action in behaving like a three-sensor action, which isn't what he said. Rather, I believe he is saying that the action taken as a whole is as good or better than the previous generation. Plenty of other two-sensor boards over the years have been as good or better than some three sensor boards. Not at three sensor behavior, but at in terms of the overall playing experience. The new Casio may use software to better simulate 3-sensor behavior than what other 2 sensor boards can do, but they still don't behave exactly as 3-sensor boards. (Though again, I don't think that is a particularly necessary feature for most people, either.)


Wasn’t my intention to rephrase.

Their exact wording is

Quote

During play, I found that this two-sensor action is as good, if not better than the three-sensor actions available on previous Privia keyboards.


I said

Quote

but according to this review it works just as well as, if not better than their tri sensor ones.


While I understand what you are saying, to me, my phrasing and theirs both say the same thing
Originally Posted by jamiecw
Originally Posted by Ojustaboo
[quote=rmns2bseen] I think many of us remember the toy pianos Casio released in the past, and can’t get over it.
.....
While I can understand very experienced players wanting the best, I do feel there’s a little unfair snobbery against Casio.


The only snobbery would come from people who never tried a lot of pianos, have little to no experience and make statements because of hearsay.

Not true in my case, I never grew up on keyboards and have no reason to be snobbish or bias at Casio (I even bought one having liked it at the store and regretted it later, an AP470, good value for the price range but ultimately failed to live up the hype). I simply call it how I see it, and I see that Yamaha, Roland and Kawai (at least the mid-range and above models) are just better (in both sound and action) - I wish people could also accept this rather than just spout out snobbery bias...


While I don’t doubt your opinion of Casio’s, you may have valid reasons for disliking them, I still think many others hear the Casio name and automatically look for something to write them off.

The place I bought mine from, Cookes pianos in Norwich, have tons of pianos in their shop, loads of acoustics of various types and loads of digitals. they’re not at all pushy and give frank and honest opinions of their products. The guy that sold me mine has worked there for decades, he, like you, said that when it comes to mid range, kawai, Yamaha etc is the only way to go. He also remembered me buying my Kawai MP10 there.

I tried the kawai (can’t remember the model) and he did say that in his opinion it was better than the Casio, but it was also something like £500 more. He said that a few years previous he would never ever recommend a Casio, but their latest models are very able and would happily suit most beginners for quite a few years. He too said that if you mention Casio to most pianists, they screw their noses up based on Casio’s older offerings etc (my words, but was along those lines)

Had I had the extra cash spare, I more than likely would have gone the Kawai route (again based on bias), that said, I don’t think the Kawai felt £500 more (hope that makes sense).

I am happy with my Casio, no it’s not perfect, but neither are half the acoustics in use out there. I sort of get a little peeved when the only piano I could afford, a piano that has good response for me, is written off by many.

I also suffer from bad arthritis, locking fingers etc and find it easier to play than my MP10 was. That probably adds to my preference of Casios lighter key bed.
Originally Posted by Ojustaboo

...

Had I had the extra cash spare, I more than likely would have gone the Kawai route (again based on bias), that said, I don’t think the Kawai felt £500 more (hope that makes sense).

I am happy with my Casio, no it’s not perfect, but neither are half the acoustics in use out there. I sort of get a little peeved when the only piano I could afford, a piano that has good response for me, is written off by many. ...

Eggggzackly. That makes perfect sense, and it's exactly what I was thinking when I opted for the Casio. To be honest though it doesn't bother me in the least if people "look down on" Casios. What's a little irritating is to hear that "brand bias" doesn't exist and that it's somehow self-evident that Kawais and Yamahas are inherently superior in the sub-$2k digital market. With all due respect, that's hogwash.
Originally Posted by Ojustaboo
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
By the way, if I'm not mistaken all the Privia series models have essentially the same action. The PX-S1000 is described as being tri-sensor.


The PX-S1000 uses a different two sensor keybed, but according to this review it works just as well as, if not better than their tri sensor ones.

https://www.pianodreamers.com/casio-px-s1000-review/


Incidentally I have to admit I got that completely wrong. Not the first time. Reading the descriptions it sounds interesting. The action on the px-870 *is* on the noisy side, but not really a problem. But the 25 lbs total weight is what I'd really like, comparatively. Oh well, if I had $600 to burn I'd get one, probably...but I don't. laugh I'm content with what I have.
Originally Posted by anotherscott
The difference between 2-sensor and 3-sensor is unimportant for a new player (and even most advanced players, IMO). Insisting on 3-sensor is like insisting that you must have a grand piano, an upright won't do. I make that comparison specifically because grands have the equivalent of a DP's 3-sensor functionality, while uprights behave more like 2-sensor DPs... the point being that, when it comes to acoustics, far more people play uprights than grands, and are very happy with them, even if they are advanced players. And there are certainly some 2-sensor DPs that I think most would agree are far better than some other 3-sensor DPs. It's just not all that important, especially for a new player. Or to extend your car analogy, it's like someone who has never driven before choosing a car because it has a 6-speed manual transmission instead of a 5-speed. In the list of top ten things to care about, it wouldn't even make the list.

p.s. -- this is not meant to denigrate whatever Casio is doing with their new action, which I haven't tried yet, and might play better regardless of how successfully it does or does not emulate the behavior associated with 3 sensors.

That is another key information I need .

In my country Kawai es110 is cheaper than casio px-s1000 around 100 buck .
Casio px-s1000 with stand ~ 681 $
Kawai es110 with stand ~ 564 $

As I read all other comment .Kawai es110 have better key action a bit vs Casio px-s1000 and 3 sensor feature is unimportant .

So deciding blind buy Kawai es110 .Thank all of you alot .
Originally Posted by begin ẻ

So deciding blind buy Kawai es110 .Thank all of you alot .

Congrats - the ES110 would've been my choice too between those two models. Let us know how you get on with it..always nice to hear back feedback.
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