Piano World Home Page
Hi!

I'm newly in the market for an upright digital under 3k. Unfortunately, I don't own a car and don't have that many accessible dealers around me with wide selections (I'm in NYC.)

I was originally looking at the Roland HP603, HP605, Kawai CA48, CA58, CN27, CN37, Yamaha YDP-184 or CLP625. I recently learned about the CN29 and CN39 which will hopefully be available to try soon. I was also hoping to try Roland HP704 or LX705 since the HP603/5 is discontinued, but I have no idea what sort of prices I'd be looking at.

I've gone to Sam Ash, Guitar Center, and Frank & Camille's West. I haven't been to Faust Harrison yet because I'm not sure I want a Yamaha after trying a few of them. One Sam Ash had a CA48 (approx 2.1k) and HP605 (approx 3k) + many Yamahas, Frank & Camille's had a Kawai CN37 (approx 2.5k) and CA58 (approx 3k.) After calling around to other Sam Ash stores, Costa Piano in Garden City, and Music Den in NJ, I'm not able to find any of the newer Roland models. One has an old 603 that's priced at 3k, which is what Sam Ash is selling their 605 for.... so I'm not going to bother making that trip.

Should I give up on Roland at this point? Should I give Yamaha another chance? I was mostly unimpressed by the sound on the Yamahas vs. the CA48 or HP605 when I was trying them in the same room. I definitely like the action on the CA58 better than the CA48, but I surprisingly liked the CN37 action a bit more than the CA58 one (though the sound on the CA58 is better.) CA58 felt a bit mechanical compared to CN37. I also really liked the HP605 but I'm not sure if I should be dropping 3k on a discontinued model like that (maybe I can negotiate a bit...)

Open to trying to find any other models I may have overlooked! Right now I think I'm between that one HP605, waiting for the CN29/39, the CN37 if 39 is too expensive, or the CA58.
Just to add more confusion...have you tried any of the Roland FP-series slab pianos? I think you can get a "furniture style" piano rack with 3 pedals for the FP-30, 60, and 90 models that will look somewhat similar to the Kawai CN models.

I still use my FP-30, which I think sounds great and has nice action. I bought mine online from Kraft music, and they were very responsive to questions I had. Might be worth a look, too.
Sorry, just saw you specifically said "upright" blush
I was considering the FP-30 at some point early on when I thought I was going to stick to a 1k budget (ha.) I tried the F140R too and was really unhappy with the action. I can't remember if I tried the FP-30.... I know I tried some of the cheaper models at Sam Ash/Guitar Center and wasn't happy with most of them.
For Yamaha ... skip the CLP625 and CLP635.

But the CLP645 is in your $2000-$3000 range. My Sam Ash has it at around $2800 ... but you could offer less.
It seems like none of the shops here in NYC are listing their pianos below online prices, but I'll see what I can find.
Originally Posted by nutellaphant
I'm newly in the market for an upright digital under 3k. Unfortunately, I don't own a car and don't have that many accessible dealers around me with wide selections (I'm in NYC.)
Sad to hear that. A few short years ago, NYC was packed with music stores and studios.

Most have disappeared as internet piracy killed the music industry and that silly 0% sales tax subsidy to internet companies only killed retailers.
Originally Posted by newer player
Originally Posted by nutellaphant
I'm newly in the market for an upright digital under 3k. Unfortunately, I don't own a car and don't have that many accessible dealers around me with wide selections (I'm in NYC.)
Sad to hear that. A few short years ago, NYC was packed with music stores and studios.

Most have disappeared as internet piracy killed the music industry and that silly 0% sales tax subsidy to internet companies only killed retailers.


I remember! I've lived here my whole life, the piano I grew up playing was from the old Steinway showroom, I used to buy my sheet music at Colony...life is different now.
Hi just FYI I just purchased a CSP-150 for $2900 and was also offered a new Clavinova CLP-645 for $2900 at my local store. Not sure you can get it at that price, but hey - both are leaps and bounds better than a CLP-625 and probably anything you mentioned.
Originally Posted by vara411
Hi just FYI I just purchased a CSP-150 for $2900 and was also offered a new Clavinova CLP-645 for $2900 at my local store. Not sure you can get it at that price, but hey - both are leaps and bounds better than a CLP-625 and probably anything you mentioned.


I'm going to head to Faust this afternoon (the lone Yamaha dealer I can visit aside from Sam Ash) to see what prices they can offer. They have it listed for $3.5k online so I'm not very hopeful. I feel like I'm going crazy when I read about people finding prices way lower than the MSRP at their dealers. Everything I've seen around here is either the same as or higher than the MSRP and then they offer me the online price as a "deal."

I've been to Faust twice in the last week. I am looking at different models (The Avant Grande), but I can say that their internet prices look similar to the store tags. They didn't offer any deals up front so I think if one were to bargain, you'd need to make the first move.

I had a different experience at the Kawai dealer who offered a deal up front. Not a great one, but he was more proactive.

I will be interested to hear about your experience there.


Originally Posted by nutellaphant
[quote=vara411

I'm going to head to Faust this afternoon (the lone Yamaha dealer I can visit aside from Sam Ash) to see what prices they can offer. They have it listed for $3.5k online so I'm not very hopeful. I feel like I'm going crazy when I read about people finding prices way lower than the MSRP at their dealers. Everything I've seen around here is either the same as or higher than the MSRP and then they offer me the online price as a "deal."
Originally Posted by Snicklefritz

I've been to Faust twice in the last week. I am looking at different models (The Avant Grande), but I can say that their internet prices look similar to the store tags. They didn't offer any deals up front so I think if one were to bargain, you'd need to make the first move.

I had a different experience at the Kawai dealer who offered a deal up front. Not a great one, but he was more proactive.

I will be interested to hear about your experience there.



Which Kawai dealer?
Originally Posted by nutellaphant
Originally Posted by vara411
Hi just FYI I just purchased a CSP-150 for $2900 and was also offered a new Clavinova CLP-645 for $2900 at my local store. Not sure you can get it at that price, but hey - both are leaps and bounds better than a CLP-625 and probably anything you mentioned.


I'm going to head to Faust this afternoon (the lone Yamaha dealer I can visit aside from Sam Ash) to see what prices they can offer. They have it listed for $3.5k online so I'm not very hopeful. I feel like I'm going crazy when I read about people finding prices way lower than the MSRP at their dealers. Everything I've seen around here is either the same as or higher than the MSRP and then they offer me the online price as a "deal."


I've purchased two pianos and haggled over a third in the past 6 months. Here's what I've learned: MSRP means absolutely nothing, and internet prices are NOT the bottom price. Any store that offers you the online price or higher is ripping you off. My local store saw I was a serious buyer, so we had a bit of a back-and-forth. He finally offered me $3000 price for the CSP-150. I told him I'd think about it. I called back later and gave him an offer of $2900 and he accepted.

Just tell the guy/gal straight up: "Look, $3K is the absolute top of my budget. I really want THIS piano. If you can sell it to me at that price, I'll take it."

He might counter with $3200 or something. If he does, I'd say it's still a good buy for either the CSP-150 or CLP-645... (BTW they're different pianos. The CSP-150 is a pretty amazing instrument with lots of bells and whistles (follow-the-lights, arranger feature)... but if you already know how to play and have no use for the lights or arranger function (styles) then I say go for the CLP-645 as it can also connect to the iPad and has upgraded WOODEN keys.)
Originally Posted by vara411

I've purchased two pianos and haggled over a third in the past 6 months. Here's what I've learned: MSRP means absolutely nothing, and internet prices are NOT the bottom price. Any store that offers you the online price or higher is ripping you off. My local store saw I was a serious buyer, so we had a bit of a back-and-forth. He finally offered me $3000 price for the CSP-150. I told him I'd think about it. I called back later and gave him an offer of $2900 and he accepted.

Just tell the guy/gal straight up: "Look, $3K is the absolute top of my budget. I really want THIS piano. If you can sell it to me at that price, I'll take it."

He might counter with $3200 or something. If he does, I'd say it's still a good buy for either the CSP-150 or CLP-645... (BTW they're different pianos. The CSP-150 is a pretty amazing instrument with lots of bells and whistles (follow-the-lights, arranger feature)... but if you already know how to play and have no use for the lights or arranger function (styles) then I say go for the CLP-645 as it can also connect to the iPad and has upgraded WOODEN keys.)


Yes, I know MSRP means nothing and that I need to haggle below the Internet price. Nobody is willing to do that in person, yet (I have not gone hard on the negotiating so far, but I had a short back and forth at the Kawai dealer that went nowhere even after telling them my budget was lower and expressing serious interest. Obviously my next step is to make an offer.) I've been haggling with Sam Ash online so I know it's technically possible - they do not have every model I want, though. When you only have a single dealer for each brand accessible in person and they are ripping you off, what else are you supposed to do? I guess I'll have to buy it online in that case.
Originally Posted by nutellaphant
Originally Posted by vara411

I've purchased two pianos and haggled over a third in the past 6 months. Here's what I've learned: MSRP means absolutely nothing, and internet prices are NOT the bottom price. Any store that offers you the online price or higher is ripping you off. My local store saw I was a serious buyer, so we had a bit of a back-and-forth. He finally offered me $3000 price for the CSP-150. I told him I'd think about it. I called back later and gave him an offer of $2900 and he accepted.

Just tell the guy/gal straight up: "Look, $3K is the absolute top of my budget. I really want THIS piano. If you can sell it to me at that price, I'll take it."

He might counter with $3200 or something. If he does, I'd say it's still a good buy for either the CSP-150 or CLP-645... (BTW they're different pianos. The CSP-150 is a pretty amazing instrument with lots of bells and whistles (follow-the-lights, arranger feature)... but if you already know how to play and have no use for the lights or arranger function (styles) then I say go for the CLP-645 as it can also connect to the iPad and has upgraded WOODEN keys.)


Yes, I know MSRP means nothing and that I need to haggle below the Internet price. Nobody is willing to do that in person, yet (I have not gone hard on the negotiating so far, but I had a short back and forth at the Kawai dealer that went nowhere even after telling them my budget was lower and expressing serious interest. Obviously my next step is to make an offer.) I've been haggling with Sam Ash online so I know it's technically possible - they do not have every model I want, though. When you only have a single dealer for each brand accessible in person and they are ripping you off, what else are you supposed to do? I guess I'll have to buy it online in that case.



Hmm. Yeah, I guess that's a tough situation. Well, worth a shot.

Also - you mentioned the CLP-625, why not the CLP-635? I'd be surprised if you couldn't hit your budget with that piano, and it's got many more features than the CLP-625 (bigger speakers, Piano Room feature, better UI, more voices)... anyway good luck. Keep us updated!

(BTW I realize I sound like a Yamaha salesman... I like them a lot but I heard the Kawais are great too... we just don't have them in my town.)
Originally Posted by vara411

Hmm. Yeah, I guess that's a tough situation. Well, worth a shot.

Also - you mentioned the CLP-625, why not the CLP-635? I'd be surprised if you couldn't hit your budget with that piano, and it's got many more features than the CLP-625 (bigger speakers, Piano Room feature, better UI, more voices)... anyway good luck. Keep us updated!

(BTW I realize I sound like a Yamaha salesman... I like them a lot but I heard the Kawais are great too... we just don't have them in my town.)


Oversight on my part - I should have included the CLP-635 too! I'm pretty sold on the CLP-645 features, so hoping I like it in person and that I can get a semblance of a good deal on it if it's my favorite. I imagine I may end up having to pick between CLP-645, Kawai CA58, Kawai CN39, and Roland HP605 all at around 3k or so.
Well sadly I didn't love the CLP-645. I went back to try the Roland HP605 again and still really like it, but they only have the floor model available and weren't giving me a great deal on it (2.8k) - I'm sure I could get them down further, but it probably wouldn't be worth it still given how much foot traffic that store sees and how long it has been there.

Did you end up going to Faust Harrison to try the Yamahas?

Originally Posted by nutellaphant
Well sadly I didn't love the CLP-645. I went back to try the Roland HP605 again and still really like it, but they only have the floor model available and weren't giving me a great deal on it (2.8k) - I'm sure I could get them down further, but it probably wouldn't be worth it still given how much foot traffic that store sees and how long it has been there.
Originally Posted by Snicklefritz

Did you end up going to Faust Harrison to try the Yamahas?

Originally Posted by nutellaphant
Well sadly I didn't love the CLP-645. I went back to try the Roland HP605 again and still really like it, but they only have the floor model available and weren't giving me a great deal on it (2.8k) - I'm sure I could get them down further, but it probably wouldn't be worth it still given how much foot traffic that store sees and how long it has been there.



I did! I tried the 645, 635, CSP-150, NU1X, and one other (can't remember, it was too expensive anyway.) Had a nice time, but didn't like the action enough to pursue any of them further.
For me as well I'm finding that the action is going to be what likely seals the deal.


Originally Posted by nutellaphant
Originally Posted by Snicklefritz

Did you end up going to Faust Harrison to try the Yamahas?

Originally Posted by nutellaphant
Well sadly I didn't love the CLP-645. I went back to try the Roland HP605 again and still really like it, but they only have the floor model available and weren't giving me a great deal on it (2.8k) - I'm sure I could get them down further, but it probably wouldn't be worth it still given how much foot traffic that store sees and how long it has been there.



I did! I tried the 645, 635, CSP-150, NU1X, and one other (can't remember, it was too expensive anyway.) Had a nice time, but didn't like the action enough to pursue any of them further.
Originally Posted by Snicklefritz
For me as well I'm finding that the action is going to be what likely seals the deal.



Sadly, I think I liked the Roland HP605 action best...
Originally Posted by nutellaphant
Originally Posted by Snicklefritz
For me as well I'm finding that the action is going to be what likely seals the deal.



Sadly, I think I liked the Roland HP605 action best...


We went through the same process a couple of years ago -- going back and forth beween Yamaha and Roland. This is obviously a matter of personal taste, but Roland's PHA50 action did it for us. We ended up buying an LX-17. I see this is now the action on the HP605 that you're looking at. Not sure what agreements do Roland dealers have with the manufacturer as far as out-of-state sales. But now that you know this is the piano and action you like, could you find a way to order online or from a shop in another state? One might be able to give you a good deal including shipping right to your door.
I'm working through my alternatives! Right now I'm trying to negotiate with a seller in NJ. Not easy for me to get there at all (and they're trying to get me to come in before they'll agree to a price because they know I'm "close"), but hoping they'll go to ~2.8k for a new one (they asked $3.9k...not gonna happen.) The HP601 and DP603 seem to have the same action, though, and are both way more affordable to me so if this one won't budge I'll consider a different model. I'm also hoping to check out a different dealer in CT who said they have a bunch of Roland & Kawai models in stock, so I can finally try everything I'm considering in one place vs every few days. I wouldn't be upset if I had to go with the Kawai CA58 after all this, though. It's still a formidable option. Also, the Kawai dealer nearby will be lowering the CN37 price when the CN39 comes out....
I can potentially do an HP605 floor model from a smaller shop outside the city for ~$2500. They offered $2600 after we negotiated to $2800 on a new one and they realized they have no more new ones. I'd probably offer back $2300 given that it's a floor unit - is it even worth it, though? I imagine they have much less foot traffic than Sam Ash in Midtown, but I'd need to procure a car and drive all the way out there to check it out first.
Originally Posted by nutellaphant
I can potentially do an HP605 floor model from a smaller shop outside the city for ~$2500. They offered $2600 after we negotiated to $2800 on a new one and they realized they have no more new ones. I'd probably offer back $2300 given that it's a floor unit - is it even worth it, though? I imagine they have much less foot traffic than Sam Ash in Midtown, but I'd need to procure a car and drive all the way out there to check it out first.


When we got our LX17 a couple of years ago, we specifically requested the floor model that had been fully tested. We were taking the piano across the border to our home in Mexico. Although tempting, we just couldn't afford taking the risk on a brand new piano (still in its box) that could have some issue and be forced to drive it 16 hours back to Phoenix for warranty repair. We are very happy with our Roland LX17 almost two years later. I would simply ask the usual questions to make sure the piano is in pristine shape and that they will pack it carefully for shipping.
A trip from Phoenix to Mexico can be rough on a piano; did the LX-17 need a tuning when it arrived at Mexico?
There's definitely some benefit to getting the floor model since it's been tested extensively, as long as it hasn't been tested to the point of feeling like a "used" piano rather than a new one... I'll be picking it up most likely anyway as I don't want to pay the shipping costs (unless they can fold it in or give me a good deal - I live in a walk-up on a high floor, though, so estimates I've been getting are approaching $200.)
Originally Posted by Pete14
A trip from Phoenix to Mexico can be rough on a piano; did the LX-17 need a tuning when it arrived at Mexico?


We were quite concerned when took it out of the box, but amazingly, it sounded great when we plugged it in. No tuning needed. Can you believe it? LOL!
Can anyone give advice on negotiating? I'm thinking about going for a new CA58 instead of a floor model HP605 (though it's not totally off the table...)

I tried to counter an offer of $2,795 (plus 150 shipping with assembly included, no tax) with $2500 shipping included. I was nearly laughed at. They countered with $2,695 plus shipping. I told them I wanted to think about it and plan to call back. I only know from the prices paid spreadsheet that it's potentially possible to get Sam Ash to do $2500 online.... so far they've only gone to $2799 though. I'm currently in touch with 2 other vendors and will be contacting a 3rd. The other issue I'm battling against is that NYC tax + shipping to the walk-up really jacks up the price so any concessions I can get on those are valuable. Are there any tips I can use to try and get a successful deal?
I take it that carrying a piano up to the house/apartment from street level brings extra cost? Well if you buy a piano in-a-box it's not so difficult. The box is relatively compact. The piano only becomes bulky after assembly.

But if you're buying an already assembled piano, that can be a bear.

As for getting the best price ... You've already seen member "KL NY" make the purchase for $2500. That should be your high target.

You've rejected $2800 + $150 + tax. And you've walked away from $2700 + $150 + tax. I think you made the right moves.

You told them you'd think about it. The only thing I would have done differently is to omit the "think about it" and simply said "thank you, but sorry".

On the next encounter I'd make a point of visiting another shop, expressing interest in the piano, getting the salesman's name and email, and leaving your name and phone number.

Follow-up later or next day with an email to that salesman. Include your name, phone, and email address. Remind the salesman of your visit, and ask a question.
The question you ask is not relevant. The only point of the email is to show interest, and to ensure that the seller has your contact information.

If you get an answer to your question just reply with an indication that you're ready to buy.
Name your price. Include shipping, assembly, and tax, and make it clear that this is the on-the-street total. One number and only one number.
Mention that you'd like to revisit the shop on a particular date. Name that date explicitly.

You now have your baited hook in the water. You're no longer just another guy, like many others, just looking at pianos.
You're ready to buy. You'll be available on a specific date. So see what happens.

The seller will not say no to your offer. He wants you back in the store. He wants to get his mitts on you. (And you want to get your mitts on him.)
Remind him of your emailed offer. When he hems and haws ... you can sweeten the deal by offering him cash (or check). He'll save the 2.5% credit card holdback.
But don't make this (or any) concession until he makes a counter-statement.

Always remember: The seller wants your money more than you want his piano.

Best of luck.
I don't have other shops to go to really - I've reached out now to every Kawai dealer in a reasonable distance (only 1 of which I can actually visit again without a car.) I've made it pretty clear to a few of them that I'm serious about buying, so there are 3 shops with my contact info and an ongoing email chain where I've been trying to figure out what "delivery" really includes. Tax is 8.875% here but if I get it shipped from another state I can potentially avoid that (only if it's being delivered....) I have 2 dealers in 2 neighboring states, 1 dealer in NYC. Those are my 3 options aside from buying online (which I am still considering, the other NY buyer also bought online though assembly was not included.) Do I just email them all with the same take it or leave it, I will buy this right now if you take it offer and see who bites??

Yes from street level to my apartment is becoming the issue. If it's in a box, that doesn't seem difficult to me, but one shop told me it would be $50 per flight of stairs - and the piano would be in a box until they assemble it in my apartment! That's $200 just for my stairs on top of a $175 delivery fee. I might as well carry it myself with a friend or hire my own moving company!
I see your dilemma more clearly now.


If you cannot do a face-to-face with other dealers then I'm not sure what to say. I only negotiate face to face.

But, you said it yourself: "Do I just email them all with the same take it or leave it, I will buy this right now if you take it offer and see who bites?"
What the heck. It's worth a try. And there's nothing to lose.
I thought I'd have better luck negotiating face to face today with my offer after building up a rapport and making it clear I would do a same day purchase for that price. Oh well! (Of course, he has now emailed me to say he misquoted the delivery and that stairs aren't included in the price...jeez.) There is the 1 other shop I can visit, if I have a car, as I've only emailed them and not spoken to someone face to face. I'm also open to revisiting the one in the city to make my offer instead of doing so online, as I've so far had an experience of just leaving my name and contact info and asking them a question about the CN series...
Originally Posted by nutellaphant


Yes from street level to my apartment is becoming the issue. If it's in a box, that doesn't seem difficult to me, but one shop told me it would be $50 per flight of stairs - and the piano would be in a box until they assemble it in my apartment! That's $200 just for my stairs on top of a $175 delivery fee. I might as well carry it myself with a friend or hire my own moving company!


Pay $200 for delivery is too much IMO, not because it not worth it but that is added 10% to the price. This is a DP not Acoustic Piano. It comes in a box, it weight about 200 lbs, If they offer to ship free to your apt, you just need a few friends, take it out from the box, the only heavy piece is the "keyboard", maybe 100-120 lbs?, 2-3 guys can carry it slowly up the stairs. The rest is just the stand on bench, you can carry it up the stairs easily. To carry the whole box up the stairs maybe a challenge, some of the stairs in NYC apt are very tight.. Of course, you need to take all precautions.. don't hurt yourself. Yes I mean you and your friends, not the DP.

I never thought shopping for a DP was so hard when I started to look for a new DP. There is only 1 Kawai dealer in NY, and 1 Yamaha dealer. Luckily NYC has Sam Ash which has few model to try. Drive to NJ or CT are just inconvenient, even you go where, you may no able to negotiate to the price you willing to pay, that just what I hate this dealership thing. You dont know what price you get until you get to the store. How much time people wasted in dealing with this kind of thing? The Kawai dealer in NYC just lost my business because of this. When I visited, he didnt even bother to offer me the "online price" that listed in Kawai site. Even after an email follow up, the price still higher than the online price. I didnt even bother to counter the offer. Perhaps I might able to get the same low price I got somewhere, but why do I want to do that?

I hope you able to get the DP you like,
I actually did the drive to CT today as I had brief access to a car! I had to do it to be able to try the Rolands and Kawais together in 1 room since Sam Ash only has the CA48 and HP605 at 34th right now.

I was really hoping I could make it work for the $2500 and was bummed it didn't happen. The dealer stuff is extra frustrating here when it takes a full hour+ to get to any one of them. The guy was really trying to make the sale too, asking me to put down a deposit etc... and gave me a whole spiel in the beginning about how they don't need the money and can do good prices. The price for the CA78 was "ok" at $3595, but I hated the touch screen.

Yeah the $200 is very absurd for delivery, but taxes in NYC on a $2500 piano are $205 anyway (if I'd bought it and drove it back from CT I could save another $50 or so on tax.) So if the option is between paying $150-200 in tax or $200 for delivery I supposed I'd pick the delivery! Not if EVERY flight is $50 though. Robbery.

My stairs are very wide and easy to navigate at least.
This highlights one of the most important points in working a deal ...
Originally Posted by KL NY
How much time people wasted in dealing with this kind of thing? The Kawai dealer in NYC just lost my business because of this. When I visited, he didnt even bother to offer me the "online price" that listed in Kawai site. Even after an email follow up, the price still higher than the online price. I didnt even bother to counter the offer. Perhaps I might able to get the same low price I got somewhere, but why do I want to do that?
How much time indeed!

In a negotiation you must make time work for you. Don't be in a hurry. He who is constrained by time loses!

The time need not be wasted at all. The time is to be used to work the deal.

I generally prefer to spend more time ... and less money.
If anything, I don't mind taking my time with the negotiations and piano testing. Spending a few thousand dollars isn't a decision I want to make quickly! The time I mind here, though, is the hours I've spent in transit. At least 5+ at this point! I feel it would be a more enjoyable process if I could try these out more frequently.
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
This highlights one of the most important points in working a deal ...
Originally Posted by KL NY
How much time people wasted in dealing with this kind of thing? The Kawai dealer in NYC just lost my business because of this. When I visited, he didnt even bother to offer me the "online price" that listed in Kawai site. Even after an email follow up, the price still higher than the online price. I didnt even bother to counter the offer. Perhaps I might able to get the same low price I got somewhere, but why do I want to do that?
How much time indeed!

In a negotiation you must make time work for you. Don't be in a hurry. He who is constrained by time loses!

The time need not be wasted at all. The time is to be used to work the deal.

I generally prefer to spend more time ... and less money.


Well, the issue is not we want to rush to make a deal , it is the issue with this type of negotiation is not necessary and bad to us. Why this industry has to work this way? A dealer need customer to come in the door before even disclose their price, yes sure we can do the way people suggest, drop the offer and contact and leave. But why people think this way of conduct business is good? The time is waste when I have to contact each dealer and find out their price and counter offer, many may not even deal with me because I email them instead of coming through the door. Time is waste when I have to drive many places just to find out the price. I should be able to do this on my computer and get it done in 10 minutes.
I've negotiated the following so far:

Kawai CA58, new, Rosewood
$2939 including sales tax, free shipping into my apartment, no assembly (I offered $2400 plus tax, this was their counter - without tax it's $2700. I went back with $2550 plus tax.)

$2745, no tax involved, includes shipping to the ground floor of my building (I offered $2600 including shipping, this was their counter. I'd like to go back with $2695 shipping included.)

Roland HP605, floor model (NJ), black
$2700, no tax involved, includes shipping to my apartment (I offered $2400 including shipping, this was their counter. I'd like to go back with $2600 shipping included.)

The Roland is the best deal with this in mind, at the moment.
I'm in touch with one other dealer in NJ who has a CA58 floor model in black (or could get me a new one obviously.) Waiting to hear what their shipping costs are before I offer.
Seemingly going to get a CA58 for $2350 + tax, free shipping, bench included!
Originally Posted by nutellaphant
Seemingly going to get a CA58 for $2350 + tax, free shipping, bench included!


Is this the "other" dealer in NJ that has the floor model? or the dealer you already have few counter offers?
Online dealer that came through with a last minute counter after I told them I wanted them to beat the lowest offers I'd gotten elsewhere:

NJ place offered $2500 for a Satin Black floor model on the CA58. Their delivery service wanted $400 to bring it to my apartment, no negotiations or leaving it on the ground floor.

CT place offered $2675 for a new Rosewood (includes $150 for shipping to the ground floor in a box.) Bringing it to my apartment would be another $150 and assembly would be $50 on top of that.

Roland HP605 dealer wouldn't budge on the $2700 for the floor model, but it includes shipping to my apartment. Comes with a full warranty and they sent pictures/a video of it being played since I can't visit myself.

Online shop is $2560 after tax but same scenario as the CT place in terms of having to carry it up the stairs myself.

So I now have to decide if I want the brand new CA58 for $2560 (that I have to carry up myself & assemble), or the floor model HP605 for $2700 (that would be delivered into my apartment.)
Actually the HP605 just went down to $2650. Now it's a tough call!!
They are all within $200-$300, i say pick the one you like CA or the HP, don't worry much about price grin

Which one do you like more?
I'm just not sure! I liked them both a lot. I've been going between GFC and PHA-50 action and could never decide, sound is great on either one.

On the Roland, I really like that you can "hide" the panel when you don't want people to see it. I like the music stand too since it has clips to hold your music back.

On the Kawai, I like how easy the controls are to use and the color of the Rosewood is attractive.
Flip a coin? wink

I don't think you can lose either way.
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Flip a coin? wink

I don't think you can lose either way.


Ha! I'm about at that point.

Ended up going to Sam Ash to try their 605 and CA48 again for the closest comparison I can get quickly, and brought my headphones.

I ended up discovering a weird "quirk" on the HP605 - it almost feels like there's a delay occasionally when I play a note. Not always, not all keys... it also felt like I couldn't get the same dynamics I was getting on the CA48, but I did slightly prefer the action/sounds. I can't tell if this is just an issue with the one floor model, I didn't notice this issue previously.

On the CA48, with some of the sounds on the higher keys it felt like the same pressure I used for the lower keys would emit a horribly loud sound that hurt my ears. However, I know I didn't notice this on the CA58 when I played so maybe it has to do with the sounds specifically on the CA48?? I felt like I could get the appropriate dynamics, though.
I'm in a very similar situation and budget (up to $2500), also in NYC.

I started my quest hearing good things about the CLP625, but when I tried it at Faust Harrison I was disappointed with the action. They have real grand pianos on the floor there and even an amateur like me can tell that the action on the real thing is much, much lighter than on the Clavinovas. I'm not sure this is me being naive since some people argue that you should practice on a harder action to develop finger strength and precision. But I really didn't see myself enjoying playing on a Yamaha "clunky" action.

Then I discovered Kawai, and felt much better about the action when I tried it. It was almost an "ah-ha" moment to me. I was about to close on a CA48 on Sam Ash, but then came my plot twist:

A good friend of mine got a job at MoMa and said they can get me a Roland Kiyola, (which has an exclusive japanese cabinet design and Roland's PH-50 action) for 50% the price with their employee discount, which gets it at exactly 2500.

Now I'm struggling between the C48 full-price and the Kiyola half-price, and honestly can't get my head around which deal is better. I've heard people say the Kyiola is 5-year old technology packed into a nice cabinet, but I also hear that Roland's modeling and action are great.

No idea what to do now lol! Help needed!
Dang!! I would have loved a Kiyola, it's so beautiful, but it's super expensive for what it is and the freestanding pedals bother me. Great price on that with the discount.

Have you tried the HP605 at Sam Ash? The Kiyola action will be like that, but not sure about the sound. I honestly was a huuuge fan of the HP605.... if you're interested, I could put you in touch with the vendor who was willing to sell the floor model for $2650 tax/shipping included. If you're in an elevator building or ground floor unit you could probably get a better deal. It'd be a "better" piano than the Kiyola in about every way, if not as "aesthetic." I'm still sad I won't be getting the 605, even if I'm happy with the CA58 decision.

The CA48 should be ~2k or less including tax/shipping if you negotiate well anyway. I got my CA58 for $2500 tax/shipping included, for what it's worth (though I did have to pay some Taskrabbit guys to bring it up to my 4th floor apartment yesterday, ha! Only $90 though.) I'd probably take the Kiyola over the CA48, but not over a CA58 or HP605.
Do you like the sound and touch of the Kiyola?
Do you like the look of it?
Originally Posted by lucasn
A good friend of mine got a job at MoMa and said they can get me a Roland Kiyola, (which has an exclusive japanese cabinet design and Roland's PH-50 action) for 50% the price with their employee discount, which gets it at exactly 2500.

Now I'm struggling between the C48 full-price and the Kiyola half-price, and honestly can't get my head around which deal is better. I've heard people say the Kyiola is 5-year old technology packed into a nice cabinet, but I also hear that Roland's modeling and action are great.
I think you really need to buy the piano you like.
I find the Kiyola ugly and cheap looking. If it's offered at MoMa it's more about modern art than it is about pianism. So the 50% off means little to me.

Keep in mind that you can get 30% off of list price on just about any piano.
Also remember that you don't pay in percentages. You pay in dollars.

So choose the piano whose touch, sound, and price are appealing. Don't be side-tracked by glitz, or exclusivity.
Originally Posted by MacMacMac

Also remember that you don't pay in percentages. You pay in dollars.


Adding this to the collection of favorite quotes!
© Piano World Piano & Digital Piano Forums