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I have about $2000 to spend on a digital piano for my home practice (I can stretch the budged up a bit, but not too much). I want a digital piano because I have roommates who wouldn't appreciate hearing piano sounds from my room and also I'd like to practice at night. For past few weeks I've been searching forums and googling extensively as well as visiting local music stores (all three of them in my city, anyway). I am curious about your opinions.

As for acoustic pianos, I'm used to play an older Steinway practice grand with a heavy action (not stiff, just heavy) and new-ish Yamaha and Kawai uprights. I like them all, my favorite is the Steinway.

When I approach another piano, I first sit and play keys very softly, just to look for escapement and feel the heavyness of the action and also listen for the sound at the quietest dynamic levels. Then I play some pieces, I usually start without pedaling, just to test out how dynamics work, how much force do I need to put in to produce pp - ff range. Then I use pedal to hear resonances. This is where problems usually start with digital pianos, when they start to behave in a way acoustic pianos do not.
  • The action of digital pianos always feels too light, my fingers almost sink to the keyboard without effort, as if there were no hammers on the other end of the key. This causes some problems when switching between a real piano and digital, one has to get used to it. However, I would not like to spend too much time on a digital with action that doesn't feel right, I am afraid I would not be able to play a real piano after some time spending on a digital.
  • The keys feel plastic, and very light themselves (this is perhaps just a complaint about quality)
  • Dynamics...with acoustic pianos you can always go further, always put a little more force, and get different timbre, especially with grand pianos, you can never "overdo" the force you put in (unless you take a heavy mallet and take a swing, that is), the piano will somehow respond in a new way it did not at previous dynamic level - digital pianos always have some limit at which I can feel I bumped into a solid wall, at this point only the artificial keyboard action produces more noise, but the sound coming out of the speakers doesn't change anymore, neither in terms of loudness, or timbre (as I said, good acoustic pianos have always something new to surprise me with, I like it when they start with mellow sound that gets progressivly bright and loud at higher dynamic levels). I think it's this barrier in combination with the overly light feel of the keyboard that repels me from using that digital piano as a practice instrument. Even when practicing pieces I love to stop to devote a few minutes to just listen to various dynamic levels, timbre changing, feeling the vibrations of the instrument etc...
  • Pedal: on acoustic pianos, the response isn't always yes or no, you can hold a pedal pressed just a little to produce some kind of a "reverb" (resonance), press it just a little bit more to produce more resonance etc. In digital pianos, the pedal is a yes/no type. I haven't realized how bad this feels before, but it does. More about resonance in next point.
  • (Sympathetic) Resonance: try to push one key down so lightly so it doesn't sound the string (let's say A3), just to lift its damper. Now play other notes, mainly the original note's higher harmonics (A4, E5, A5, ...) and you will excite the original string to various degrees. This effect is enhanced greatly when sustain pedal is pressed, because every string in the piano becomes a possible resonator. This is not happening in some digital pianos (or I haven't been able to find that half-pedal range in any).


I am afraid I'm being too difficult to actually buy any digital piano I would really be happy with long-term, but here is what I tried. Note, that in my city, the options are very very limited, there are very few music stores with limited merchandise, so there is only so much I could do.
  • Yamaha P-series (45, 115, ... at $300 - $600): basically all of the above. The action that does not feel anything like the real deal (plastic and to me it feels like just a heavier spring), but at least it's not that light, however, I can still reach the limit fairly easily. The weight alone or the length of the pivot alone do not assure a great-feeling action, there must be something else to it. Plus the stand that comes with these is wobbly, feels weak and kinda ruins the experience too. Pianos do not wobble when you play them.
  • I haven't tried it (no music stores have this on display), but Yamaha P-515 is reported to have a better action than the lower models from P-series
  • No stores have it on display, but I heard Yamaha AvantGrand feels more realistic. However, the price tag...
  • Kawai RH3 (CN-27 at $1800): the action feels very light, plastic, dynamic limit is reached too soon but I like how the white keys are no longer slippery
  • Kawai GF (I tried CP2): equipped with the Grand Feel action. The keys feel really nice, fingers don't slip, the keys themselves feel like they have proper mass, but the action behind the fallboard is too light, the keys are still too easy to press. Also, dynamic limit. The price the local dealer asks for this (almost $10,000 for one and other is discounted $6000) is way out of my league.
  • Kawai RM3 Grand II (VPC1 at around $1800): it was not in a store, but a friend let me try it, it feels almost as heavy as the practice Steinway, the action itself feels almost like the real deal, however the sound depends on which software one pairs it with. It also needs external speakers, so the price goes well above $2000. Plus, wobbly stands (I just like cabinet-style more to my liking, as it doesn't wobble while playing). I can try to buy some sturdy table with space underneath (for pedals) to put it on, but little things tend to ruin the experience (like the pedal unit escaping from underneath my foot).
  • I would like to try Kawai GF II (CA78, 98), but probably no instrument with such action is in my price range (~ $5000). However, GF II is the best from Kawai (excluding the ridiculous ~ $12000 Novus), so if GF II does not feel like the real deal, there is no hope with Kawai DPs. The best I can go with my budget for is CA48 with GF-C action (compact), however, I have no means to try it and I am afraid to just order it, in case it will have the problems I mentioned earlier...most troubling, a light action.


With every digital piano I tried (maybe except VPC1) I bump into one or more problems I mentioned earlier. Plastic keys just make me immediately feel like I'm not playing the real deal. Action that is too light forces one to play so carefully and lightly, that when switching back to acoustic would cause problems, initially. The same with dynamic range, with digital piano it is easy to forget that there are not only 3 (4, 5, 6, 7, ...) possible dynamic ranges, but infinitely many, infinitely finely sampled (by nature) with respect the velocity one pushes keys down with. I feel like for the relevant velocity levels the corresponding force required is too little. I understand that the physics of a real piano are extremely difficult to simulate numerically. We might have to wait a few decades for the real deal, when a digital piano becomes just a really good action attached to a really powerful computer (?)

Is my experience with digital pianos similar to yours, or am I just imagining things? Any ideas? Should I wait and save up for Kawai CA78 (until they finally discontinue it and I'm back on square one when something even more expensive is introduced lol)? Thank you.
Yes your experience is normal. Digital pianos are not acoustic pianos. Get your hands on as many DPs as you can until you find one that is good enough for what you want to do. If none of them can pass your standards, stick with an acoustic piano.

FWIW - The best action, best piano simulation, best piano sound/response and the best speaker system are never-ending topics around here, so you should fit right in. That rabbit hole goes pretty deep. Good luck! grin
Originally Posted by Groove On
Yes your experience is normal. Digital pianos are not acoustic pianos. Get your hands on as many DPs as you can until you find one that is good enough for what you want to do. If none of them can pass your standards, stick with an acoustic piano.

FWIW - The best action, best piano simulation, best piano sound/response and the best speaker system are never-ending topics around here, so you should fit right in. That rabbit hole goes pretty deep. Good luck! grin


Yeah, that "getting my hands on as many DPs as I can" part is a bit problematic...I don't know why, but here in Tallahassee, all merchants have that weird stance "sorry, we only have these..." (mostly springy entry-level synths) "...try Atlanta/Tampa/...". Just yesterday I had a guy owning a shop telling me a lot of weird crap and showing me his rewards from years ago for selling most pianos, while his current stock are old, discontinued models. But I partly understand it, for a small shop, keeping huge stock of new instruments is probably not possible without financially ruining themselves.

I'm slowly starting to turn my attention to other brands, not just Kawai. Most google searches yield the same results: websites telling me that "we cannot ship this to your country", some models hardly yield any results: CA67 with GF II is discontinued, no stores that would have it are showing up, CA78 shows up on kawaius, but that's just an online shop...online sale with pianos simply does not work, it's like buying a car online, who would do that? I'm not buying a piano without trying it just like I'm not buying a car without driving it first.

I noticed that people praise Yamaha CLP 685 (GrandTouch action) and 675. Again, not in stores, just online.

This whole thing is frustrating if one's living in a city like this.
I will just address some of your points.

Action:
Probably most DP's allow changing the touch sensitivity, so that eg. a medium touch may give PP, and a very heavy touch is required to produce FF. It could also be changed in the other direction. On my DP there are five levels.

Dynamics: Sampled sounds are limited by the number of samples per key (sampled at different levels of force applied), and sampling is expensive, therefore the number of samples is not very large. This limits the variability of timbre. In theory, modelled piano sounds do not suffer from this limitation at all. As far as I know, only Roland does modelled piano sounds. An alternative would be a VST using modelling (like Pianoteq).

Pedal: not all pedals are on/off. It depends on model.

I use a Roland FP-30 (with sampled sound); it was an entry level DP, but it works well for me. I experience hardly any difficulty going between that and my parents old European grand (which has a touch so heavy that pianists used to modern grands would be shocked).
Yes, regular digital pianos are lacking compared to acoustic pianos. Even the best ones, no exception. The only way is a hybrid piano. Provided of course you really can't live with a digital action. As someone else pointed out in another thread, even a soft synth action is good enough and you need to learn to live with it and practice rather than complaining. On the other hand I am one of those consumerists type of pianists and I simply bought a hybrid piano and am more than happy smile
No DP that I am aware of has a realistic let-off feel. The let-off bump is extremely useful on an acoustic, but not much use on a digital as it doesn't really do anything.

I have a Roland FP-90 and don't really have any problem transferring between it and a grand, but I think that's because I've learned to accommodate the differences somehow.

For me the only problems are pp trills, which are hard to practise effectively without let-off simulation, and fast fortissimo octaves in the bass, as the keys feel a bit light on my digital. Other than that, I think it's fine. While there are heavier feeling digitals, I don't think I've ever played one that feels like a grand in the bass.

Maybe this isn't of any use to you, as it's only my particular experience, but I think once the response is right, I don't really mind.

Of course with and AvantGrand or Novus things are different.
If a (used?) yamaha nu1 or nu1x is not in your price range, i'd say a vpc1 with a good vst is your best option. You can put it on a desk or something, and a pedal slipping away is always fixable, but i don't think the pedal units with 3 pedals will actually slip away.

I haven't tried it myself yet, but i believe the vpc1 rm3 grand ii action is actually a little heavier than both grand feel 1 and 2. (Correct me if im wrong)

Or maybe you can find a used Kawai ca67? I believe it has grand feel 2 action, and should be reasonably affordable if you may find one. And you could always use it as a vst controller if you happen to not like the build in sounds, same with the nu1/nu1x. I have seen a few used nu1's before, they were offered around €2500. So with a bit of patience and/or luck maybe you could have a real upright action with probably a little budget stretching.

Originally Posted by johnstaf

...
Of course with and AvantGrand or Novus things are different.


What about Yamaha CLP 675 and 685? Is the GrandTouch better? I can only find it online, I wish there was a store that has CLP on display...

Also, I looked into the spreadsheet on this forum and I found one person bought Kawai CA78 for $2900 (delivery included). Now that sounds certainly more affordable than the 5k it usually retails for. I'd certainly be able to afford $2900, but not $5000. My local dealer tells me that he buys for retail price so he absolutely cannot drop the price (when I tried to speak up about adjusting his prices he cut me off telling me "go buy online, SON"). If this is true then 1) he is not a good businessman, and certainly not a Kawai dealer, he is just a re-seller of goods. 2) I know for sure that markups on musical instruments are very high, so yes, even dropping the price from $5000 to $2900 is possible. Not all dealers are willing to talk prices, though.
Originally Posted by U3piano
If a (used?) yamaha nu1 or nu1x is not in your price range, i'd say a vpc1 with a good vst is your best option. You can put it on a desk or something, and a pedal slipping away is always fixable, but i don't think the pedal units with 3 pedals will actually slip away.

I haven't tried it myself yet, but i believe the vpc1 rm3 grand ii action is actually a little heavier than both grand feel 1 and 2. (Correct me if im wrong)

Or maybe you can find a used Kawai ca67? I believe it has grand feel 2 action.



You're right! With Kawai, this seems to be my best options. With VPC1 I'd need a good software (~ $200 or more) and good speakers (also ~ $200 or more), so the price is at least $2000 in the end. Therefore I'm still considering other options (I checked the spreadsheet telling how much others paid for theirs and with good deals I can get a much better setup within the same price range).

With Yamaha I'm looking into Clavinova 675 or 685, it seems that with a bit of negotiation and stretching my budged it might be possible. Not sure. I haven't tried it, so I don't know how it feels, but people praise it.
Things like Sustain Pedal Resonance, and Sympathetic String Resonance in particular, are often set "OFF" by default by manufacturers, even when their product does include this feature...

Examples...
V3 Piano hardware piano module obvious default presets 01 (Bosendorfer) and 02 (Steinway) have NO resonance - you have to go to much later presets 81 and 82 to hear pedal resonance ON in any appreciable amount!

VSL CFX software and VSL Steinway D software has "sympathetic = -infinity dB" resonance OFF by default!!!! even in turned off in ALL of their official promo videos on YouTube.

The reason those manufactures prefer it off by default is because, in the case of hardware module like V3, it robs polyphony. In the case of VSL software, because their implementation of string and pedal resonance is so [censored] poor that it's distracting and spoils the sound so much it's actually better without it. And also it probably drains extra CPU power too of course.

Other companies that have had proper sympathetic string resonance for years like GEM and Kawai, still have it set fairly low by default. Those instruments only really come alive when you go dig through the settings and actually turn up the string resonance to a more realistic audible level. (GEM RealPiano module had no way to do this, but most Kawai digital pianos do thankfully.)

Synthogy Ivory didn't have proper sympathetic string resonance until version II, and even now they have the "0dB default" level set fairly low and you really need to turn it up a bit for a more realistic sound.

Your other observations about digital pianos vs acoustic are pretty true.
The main weakness of digital pianos is the loudspeaker system you hear them through. Whether it's built into the cabinet of a domestic digital piano (upright or baby grand style) or whether it's a stage piano or software running through some little bookshelf size studio monitors in your bedroom or a pair of cheap 2-way active plastic PA speakers. Frankly none of these can do justice to a concert grand piano sonic experience.
The cabinet digital piano's typical built-in 6.5 inch woofers NEVER have enough deep bass extension to replicate a 9 foot Steinway, nor the power, SPL and dynamic headroom to reproduce clean transient ffff peaks without distortion, so obviously manufacturers use all sorts of engineering workarounds to compress / limit and restrict the max output levels, or add Waves MaxxBass type effects to pretend there's bass extension where they've actually HPF filtered most of the very low bass out of the samples. It's a joke. To any serious audiophile.

If you've ever heard a digital piano or software piano being played back through a decent speaker system (think at least 4 way, or 3 way with subwoofers, and serious FIR corrected amplitude and phase responses, and FIR linear phase crossovers, etc. and capable of over 120dBSPL pink noise at the listening position without clipping the amplifiers) then you would be actually surprised to hear that many digital or software samples sound pretty good, and their velocity curves can be re-adjusted to give you a really convincing ffff punch at a believable SPL that matches the feel of a big concert grand in dynamic power, if that's what you want.

Remember also, that NO loudspeaker playback of a digital sampled piano (however good the speakers are) is ever going to fool you into thinking you're playing a real acoustic piano for numerous reasons.
It's only ever a recording of a piano being reproduced (a sonic 2 dimensional picture if you like) so you shouldn't expect the digital piano to sound more convincing than any other straightfoward recording of an acoustic piano. If you record your Steinway grand and play back, are you convinced you're hearing the real thing in front of you - no - but is that recording better or worse than the quality of "recording" you hear from a sampled piano playback if played through the same hi-fi speakers or headphones or whatever you listen on, keeping a level playing field...?

Before you buy a cabinet digital piano - play an iPod or CD player stereo track through the aux-in and the piano's built-in speakers and listen to how amazing audiophile hi-fi or NOT(!) the piano's loudspeaker system reproduction actually is. Chances are it's rather midrange peaky, and muffled, coloured, distorts at high volumes and totally lacking bass below 50Hz. There's your answer as to why that sampled piano experience sounds bad too.
It's personal, me.. I would prefer one of the better kawai actions over all folded actions, because they have longer pivot points, have actual wooden keysticks and a seesaw mechanism, and therefore should be more like a real acoustic action. I don't know how important this actually is tough, it just seems better to me. And i liked these actions when i tried them, i just didn't like the sound of the kawai dp's. I think the only thing better than that is the real action in one of the hybrids.

Im considering a vpc1 myself.

Also, watch for sales if your looking for a good vst, sometimes they are about half the price. Or people selling them. I just bought Ravenscroft from one of our forum members, it's really nice. (Thanks Morten)
Originally Posted by U3piano
It's personal, me.. I would prefer one of the better kawai actions over all folded actions, because they have longer pivot points, have actual wooden keysticks and a seesaw mechanism, and therefore should be more like a real acoustic action. I don't know how important this actually is tough, it just seems better to me. And i liked these actions when i tried them, i just didn't like the sound of the kawai dp's. I think the only thing better than that is the real action in one of the hybrids.

Im considering a vpc1 myself.


I see, I saw another thread here showing the GrandTouch action and it really seems to be folding under the keys, which is less ideal than the wooden keysticks with seesaw and hammers striking upward. VPC1 might be a good choice, but you have to have a good software (I tried pianoteq a few years ago and was confused on how to get a real sound out of it...no luck) and good speakers. Good speakers are expensive, as well as software.
Keep in mind that some people also hate it (GrandTouch action).
I have a P515 which uses the same action as the CLP645 (closer to your budget). As with everything else, some like it; others hate it. I love it; however, I don’t use the on-board sound of the P515. I’m running Pianoteq6 through the on-board speakers. I’ve also played the CA95 (GF) and like you, I felt that the action was too light and fluffy. The P515 feels just right -for me- in that regard.
Also, you might want to try -before you buy- a CA78. Based on some reviews ‘round here, it seems like there’s not much of a difference between GF and GF2; especially in terms of key weight.
Originally Posted by Pete14
Keep in mind that some people also hate it (GrandTouch action).
I have a P515 which uses the same action as the CLP645 (closer to your budget). As with everything else, some like it; others hate it. I love it; however, I don’t use the on-board sound of the P515. I’m running Pianoteq6 through the on-board speakers. I’ve also played the CA95 (GF) and like you, I felt that the action was too light and fluffy. The P515 feels just right -for me- in that regard.
Also, you might want to try -before you buy- a CA78. Based on some reviews ‘round here, it seems like there’s not much of a difference between GF and GF2; especially in terms of key weight.


Thank you for your valuable input!

I was communicating with a local merchant about the possibility of getting P-515 so I can demo it, but at some point he just stopped answering emails (about 2 weeks ago), so I'm not sure...I'm literally shouting "TAKE MY MONEY" and people are like...nah.

Yes, I wouldn't buy such a high model as CA78 without trying it first. I hope sometime I manage to get elsewhere so I hopefully bump into a larger showroom where I can try those models. You're right with the fluffy feeling of GF.

So do you like Pianoteq 6? I quickly looked up what I tried a few years ago, it was Pianoteq 2.3, not sounding pleasant at all.
Originally Posted by Pagan Min

VPC1 might be a good choice, but you have to have a good software (I tried pianoteq a few years ago and was confused on how to get a real sound out of it...no luck) and good speakers. Good speakers are expensive, as well as software.


From my own experience i find making a vst sound good on speakers is quite problematic. I bought a pair of jbl lsr 305's for that purpose, these monitors were recommended to me, but im disappointed with the result. Maybe they are too small, and probably could use an added subwoofer for piano, but i think the problem is really the room, i have not treated it with bass traps etc. The monitors sound fine to me with any kind of music and i like them, but i just can't get a vst piano to sound good at all.

I always play with headphones, and it sounds fantastic.
It seems strange to me that some people really miss such a relics of acoustic pianos as damper noise or not instant hammer response. There are special settings od some DP that allow users to set really loud damper noise and hammer response so slow that you will hear sound only 0,2 sec after you pressed the key. I do not understand that. If we are able to get rid of those acoustic disadvantages, why should we emulate them? Acoustic lovers will always say "this thing does not sound real" no matter if it has damper noise emulation on not.
Originally Posted by U3piano

From my own experience i find making a vst sound good on speakers is quite problematic. I bought a pair of jbl lsr 305's for that purpose, these monitors were recommended to me, but im disappointed with the result. Maybe they are too small, and probably could use an added subwoofer for piano, but i think the problem is really the room, i have not treated it with bass traps etc. The monitors sound fine to me with any kind of music and i like them, but i just can't get a vst piano to sound good.


Good to know, and this is something that's probably hard to demo in a shop... smirk

Originally Posted by U3piano

I always play with headphones, and it sounds fantastic.


Oh yes, I intend to do some night practice so headphones are definitely relevant. If I can't make the speakers work to my satisfaction, I can use headphones. However, headphones are expensive, too (although not as much as speakears, necessarily). My roommate owns Sennheiser HD558, I like those, but it cost him around $200. Not a terrible price, but not negligible, either.
Oh yes, I love Pianoteq6!
If you’re ‘new’ to it, there’s a bit of a learning curve. I recommend reading the manual, watching videos, asking here (or at Pianoteq’s user forum).
If you get the Pro version, you will have note-per-note control on almost anything you can imagine. I do not believe that there’s any other piano VST out there that gives the user such level of control on a note-per-note basis.
This can be time-consuming, but the best way to approach it is bit by bit. For example, as you play take ‘notes’ of things that you would like to improve (note volume, dynamics, etc..) and then go in there and work at it.
There is a free demo available (some notes don’t play) that you should try, but keep in mind that this a representation of the raw/untreated experience; in other words, once you get in there and start tweaking things around to your liking, the potential for a vastly improved experience is there. At least that’s been my experience. smile
Originally Posted by Pagan Min
[quote=U3piano]
Oh yes, I intend to do some night practice so headphones are definitely relevant. If I can't make the speakers work to my satisfaction, I can use headphones. However, headphones are expensive, too (although not as much as speakears, necessarily). My roommate owns Sennheiser HD558, I like those, but it cost him around $200. Not a terrible price, but not negligible, either.


I ran into the same problem and bought a pair of these:


https://m.thomann.de/nl/superlux_hd_662_bk_evo.htm

To me they sound fantastic, and are like... almost free. laugh

These get raving reviews, that's why i bought them (blind) after lots of research on the web and with these.. I'm far from disappointed. I also modded them a little, wich was really easy and also reversable, i can't really tell if that made a real difference but they do sound really good. Some audiophile people put this mod on the internet and tested it, showing graphic tests about it beeing even better modded, flatter response etc. I think i can still find all that if you want. I highly recommend these headphones. I read about people actually saying they are comparable to some of these €200 Sennheisers for example. Unbelievable price/quality, if you ask me.

(Fixed the link)
Originally Posted by Pete14
Oh yes, I love Pianoteq6!
If you’re ‘new’ to it, there’s a bit of a learning curve. I recommend reading the manual, watching videos, asking here (or at Pianoteq’s user forum).
If you get the Pro version, you will have note-per-note control on almost anything you can imagine. I do not believe that there’s any other piano VST out there that gives the user such level of control on a note-per-note basis.
This can be time-consuming, but the best way to approach it is bit by bit. For example, as you play take ‘notes’ of things that you would like to improve (note volume, dynamics, etc..) and then go in there and work at it.
There is a free demo available (some notes don’t play) that you should try, but keep in mind that this a representation of the raw/untreated experience; in other words, once you get in there and start tweaking things around to your liking, the potential for a vastly improved experience is there. At least that’s been my experience. smile


Thank you! What is the max polyphony of Pianoteq? Some users seem to justify the lack of resonance by "expensive polyphony", does that mean that I have to pay more for more polyphony? I tried the trial version, I could hear the sympathetic resonance...I looked into the list of instruments, but I could not see Bosendorfer Imperial...are there other instruments available for download, or does one need to pay?
Originally Posted by U3piano
[quote=Pagan Min]

I ran into the same problem and bought a pair of these

To me they sound fantastic, and are like... almost free. laugh

These get raving reviews, that's why i bought them (blind) and with these.. I'm far from disappointed. I also modded them a little, wich was really easy and also reversable, i can't really tell if that made a real difference but they do sound really good. Some audiophile people put this mod on the internet and tested it, showing graphic tests about it beeing even better modded, flatter response etc. I think i can still find all that if you want. I highly recommend these headphones. I read about people actually saying they are comparable to some of these €200 Sennheisers for example. Unbelievable price/quality, if you ask me.


Would you please tell me what brand and model it is? For some reason this Thomann link does not work for me...Thomann has amazing prices btw, but considering it's located in Germany, the shipping would be expensive, if not impossible (in case of Kawai they told me right away that they don't ship it to US, because of "competition law").
The max polyphony is 256. You get some pianos bundled in with the software, but others are sold separately for about $60.00 each (Steingraeber, Bluthner, Grotrian, Steinway B, etc...). I believe that Steinway D is included with the bundle.
Originally Posted by Pagan Min


Would you please tell me what brand and model it is? For some reason this Thomann link does not work for me...Thomann has amazing prices btw, but considering it's located in Germany, the shipping would be expensive, if not impossible (in case of Kawai they told me right away that they don't ship it to US, because of "competition law").


They are superlux hd662 evo, i fixed the link also.

In my research i did also read some comments about worries of it's build quality. So i was a little sceptical, but i have to say i don't share these worries at all. Im not even overly carefull with it, i just use it normally.. even dropped them and actually been a bit uncarefull like that a few times.. i think i have it about a year now, and it's like new.

It also has a cord that disconnects at the headphones when you accidentally pull the cord, wich is really great, because it prevents damage. It happened to me a few times, and i think this should be the standard on all headphones.

They are closed headphones tough, i think people usually recommend open headphones for the best sound quality. I like closed headphones, so im not or less disturbed by sound around me.
Originally Posted by PianoStartsAt33
It seems strange to me that some people really miss such a relics of acoustic pianos as damper noise or not instant hammer response. There are special settings od some DP that allow users to set really loud damper noise and hammer response so slow that you will hear sound only 0,2 sec after you pressed the key. I do not understand that. If we are able to get rid of those acoustic disadvantages, why should we emulate them? Acoustic lovers will always say "this thing does not sound real" no matter if it has damper noise emulation on not.


Excessive damper noise is annoying, especially when playing soft, gentle pieces (that loom of strings when sustain pedal is pressed steps in the music and ruins it a bit), so I can't agree with that "damper noise" stance. However, I was talking about resonance, which is a different effect (playing one string causes other to respond, via weak link through the bridge) and unless you erase the effect of sympathetic resonance from the laws of physics, you can't really not have it in a real instrument (not only pianos).
Originally Posted by Pete14
The max polyphony is 256. You get some pianos bundled in with the software, but others are sold separately for about $60.00 each (Steingraeber, Bluthner, Grotrian, Steinway B, etc...). I believe that Steinway D is included with the bundle.


Thank you. 256 sounds like a lot, I'm just really curious what it is about the polyphony that it's limited. Why don't they allow unlimited polyphony? (I would expect that at some point it would get too heavy on CPU and start lagging, so at that point there might be a limit, which might be surpassed by using a dedicated sound card...?)

According to this https://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopic.php?id=5969 Bosendorfer sample does not exist. Not that it's a real problem, there's more than enough other tweakable gimmicks one can fiddle with, it's just I wanted to try it one day.

Originally Posted by U3piano

They are superlux hd662 evo, i fixed the link also.

In my research i did also read some comments about worries of it's build quality. So i was a little sceptical, but i have to say i don't share these worries at all. Im not even overly carefull with it, i just use it normally.. even dropped them and actually been a bit uncarefull like that a few times.. i think i have it about a year now, and it's like new.

It also has a cord that disconnects at the headphones when you accidentally pull the cord, wich is really great, because it prevents damage. It happened to me a few times, and i think this should be the standard on all headphones.


Thank you. However, I must reiterate on location. Thomann is really cheap, the same thing costs twice as much on e-bay. The item seems to not be available anymore... BTW I forgot to mention I prefer open-back headphones, it feels more natural. Ability to disconnect the cord really comes in handy smile
Originally Posted by Pagan Min


Thank you. However, I must reiterate on location. Thomann is really cheap, the same thing costs twice as much on e-bay. The item seems to not be available anymore... BTW I forgot to mention I prefer open-back headphones, it feels more natural. Ability to disconnect the cord really comes in handy smile


Twice as expensive, that's about half as attractive. smirk

The brand does offer the same type of headphones of the open-back type also, but i don't know anything about them or if people are also raving about these.
I am pretty sure all recent DPs have sympathetic resonance (at least midrange models and onwards). For example, my P515 has it, my Roland HP605 has it and Pianoteq has it too (all ON by default).

It's a little unfair to compare DPs with acoustics because both have their pros and cons and that in itself is a reason as to why both are great (and equally not so) depending on the scenario of each individuals wants and needs.

If one wants a classic Aston Martin and circumstances allow that they go and buy a DB6 not a spanking new Vantage..a bit silly to buy a Vantage and then say it does not drive the same quirky way the old DB6 did...IMO. smile
Originally Posted by Pagan Min
Originally Posted by Pete14
The max polyphony is 256. You get some pianos bundled in with the software, but others are sold separately for about $60.00 each (Steingraeber, Bluthner, Grotrian, Steinway B, etc...). I believe that Steinway D is included with the bundle.


Thank you. 256 sounds like a lot, I'm just really curious what it is about the polyphony that it's limited. Why don't they allow unlimited polyphony? (I would expect that at some point it would get too heavy on CPU and start lagging, so at that point there might be a limit, which might be surpassed by using a dedicated sound card...?)

According to this https://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopic.php?id=5969 Bosendorfer sample does not exist. Not that it's a real problem, there's more than enough other tweakable gimmicks one can fiddle with, it's just I wanted to try it one day.

Originally Posted by U3piano

They are superlux hd662 evo, i fixed the link also.

In my research i did also read some comments about worries of it's build quality. So i was a little sceptical, but i have to say i don't share these worries at all. Im not even overly carefull with it, i just use it normally.. even dropped them and actually been a bit uncarefull like that a few times.. i think i have it about a year now, and it's like new.

It also has a cord that disconnects at the headphones when you accidentally pull the cord, wich is really great, because it prevents damage. It happened to me a few times, and i think this should be the standard on all headphones.


Thank you. However, I must reiterate on location. Thomann is really cheap, the same thing costs twice as much on e-bay. The item seems to not be available anymore... BTW I forgot to mention I prefer open-back headphones, it feels more natural. Ability to disconnect the cord really comes in handy smile


I have the half open back Superlux HD681EVO headphones and they sound great, they are pretty much the 662s from what I understand but half open. They do grip quite tightly and for my needs of less than an hour a day I have no problem with that but I could imagine if I was wearing them 8 hours a day I could imagine that grip would be a bit much.
For me simulation on top digital pianos(CA98, CLP685, LX708, Casio GP400 etc.) is close enough but there is still one thing every digital piano lacks, including Pianoteq, and it's proper damper-strings interaction, when releasing key/damper slowly the note doesn't just go silent. Strings behave differently depending on how close is the damper and it's not only quieter, it makes other sounds if you know what I mean.
Originally Posted by Pagan Min

[*]The action of digital pianos always feels too light

I have the opposite problem. It is nearly impossible to find a hammer action DP that feels as light as my preferred acoustic pianos. But it sounds like you're on the right track with the VPC1. I haven't played that, but I've played a Kawai MP10 and it has probably the heaviest action I've played.

Originally Posted by Pagan Min

Dynamics...with acoustic pianos you can always go further...with digital piano it is easy to forget that there are not only 3 (4, 5, 6, 7, ...) possible dynamic ranges, but infinitely many, infinitely finely sampled (by nature) with respect the velocity one pushes keys down with.

Everything has an upper limit. Most DPs should be able to produce 127 values of force... timbre generally won't change that many times, but volume should. If you're getting to #127 too easily, there is a velocity curve adjustment to assist.

Originally Posted by Pagan Min

[*]Pedal: on acoustic pianos, the response isn't always yes or no

Many models have variable ("half" or continuous) pedaling. But not all of these models come with the correct kind of pedal to use this feature, sometimes you'll have to buy the enhanced pedal separately.

Originally Posted by Pagan Min
Plus the stand that comes with these is wobbly...wobbly stands (I just like cabinet-style more to my liking, as it doesn't wobble while playing).

There are third-party stands, you don't have to use the stand that a slab-style piano manufacturer supplies, and some others may be more stable. Cabinet style is the most solid, but now some of your budget is essentially being used by the cabinetry and the cost of transporting something of that weight. Though also, even models on stands feel more solid if you pick one of the models that are themselves heavier.

Originally Posted by Pagan Min
I am afraid I'm being too difficult to actually buy any digital piano I would really be happy with long-term
That could also be the case if you were to spend $2,000 on a new acoustic piano, if you could even find such a thing. Finding that you can't duplicate the experience of a $50k+ Steinway in a $2k digital is not surprising. And even the $10k digitals have their limitations.

But actions are so subjective. The fact that you didn't find the low-end Yamaha P-Series models too light, based on everything else you said, is kind of surprising. So you really need to try everything you can. From Yamaha, in addition to the low-end P-series and P-515 you mentioned, there's also the CP300. A Roland like the FP-90 could be worth looking at as well.

p.s. -- polyphony is rarely an issue... but also, hard to compare. The V3 module has 256 polyphony, but can use up to 6 instances for every note you play... which means that, effectively, it can have less polyphony than some other model with 128 polyphony that only uses two instances per note. Also, intelligent "note stealing" on some models can make it nearly impossible to ever hear a dropped note, even if a model has lower polyphony.
With respect to Pianoteq, there are probably a lot of us who are eagerly awaiting a Bösendorfer. But so far to no avail. But I think they recently changed the product such that you get to choose which pianos you get, if you buy Pianoteq. When I bought, the Steinway D and K2 were mandatory for the Stage version, but I believe now there is a free choice of two pianos.
I don’t see the Ballsandorfer happening anytime soon. After all, it’s owned by Yamaha, and I have a feeling that they are not interested in this partnership.
Originally Posted by Pete14
I don’t see the Ballsandorfer happening anytime soon. After all, it’s owned by Yamaha, and I have a feeling that they are not interested in this partnership.


Maybe you're right, but they might introduce it as "Vienna XXL" or something similar. smile
Originally Posted by anotherscott
From Yamaha, in addition to the low-end P-series and P-515 you mentioned, there's also the CP300. A Roland like the FP-90 could be worth looking at as well.


Personally I wouldn't really consider a cp300, well.. at least not a new one, because i think it's very overpriced for what it is. Its a very old model that's still beeing sold. I have the cp33, it is the cheaper version of the cp300 with less sounds, functions and no speakers, but the same (gh) action and same basic piano sounds. The sound is terrible and outdated (imho). I just use it as a controller.. i was disappointed with the sound since i bought it. The action is quite heavy, i think it's one of the heaviest actions on a dp, but not realistic. (again, imo). It requires quite alot of initial force to press down a key, but once your past that initial point it just feels like the weight is gone. Its a 2 sensor action too.

It's the opposite of my U3. (Which isn't a grand of course) But the keys on the u3 are initially lighter than on the cp33, but keep having weight after that first touch.

The 515 is probably a much better choice in action and sound.
Originally Posted by Nordomus
For me simulation on top digital pianos(CA98, CLP685, LX708, Casio GP400 etc.) is close enough but there is still one thing every digital piano lacks, including Pianoteq, and it's proper damper-strings interaction, when releasing key/damper slowly the note doesn't just go silent. Strings behave differently depending on how close is the damper and it's not only quieter, it makes other sounds if you know what I mean.


I guess I know what you mean. I'm not sure if I miss it ot not yet...

Originally Posted by anotherscott

I have the opposite problem. It is nearly impossible to find a hammer action DP that feels as light as my preferred acoustic pianos. But it sounds like you're on the right track with the VPC1. I haven't played that, but I've played a Kawai MP10 and it has probably the heaviest action I've played.


Pity I could not find any MP model to test, it sounds like a great thing. Though, MP11se features Grand Feel which felt too light (I tested GF on CP2).

Originally Posted by anotherscott

Everything has an upper limit. Most DPs should be able to produce 127 values of force... timbre generally won't change that many times, but volume should. If you're getting to #127 too easily, there is a velocity curve adjustment to assist.


From what you say I feel like 127 should be inaccessible or barely accessible unless you take a wrecking ball. Also sound should be louder for more force, but I feel like the slope of loudness vs force curve should be flattening toward the end.

Originally Posted by anotherscott

Many models have variable ("half" or continuous) pedaling. But not all of these models come with the correct kind of pedal to use this feature, sometimes you'll have to buy the enhanced pedal separately.


It's being said that VPC1 comes with F-30 pedal unit supporting half pedaling. I'm not sure if this means it goes from 0 to 1 continuously depending on the amount you press it, or it jumps from 0 to 1/2, and then jumps to 1, with some ranges of pressure on the pedal for each.

Originally Posted by anotherscott

There are third-party stands, you don't have to use the stand that a slab-style piano manufacturer supplies, and some others may be more stable. Cabinet style is the most solid, but now some of your budget is essentially being used by the cabinetry and the cost of transporting something of that weight. Though also, even models on stands feel more solid if you pick one of the models that are themselves heavier.


For VPC1 I have this nice idea in my mind, to buy a very simple, but sturdy metal or wooden table...that should do the trick, be reasonably cheap and look nice. I do not intend to move the rig, it's for my home practice.

Originally Posted by anotherscott

That could also be the case if you were to spend $2,000 on a new acoustic piano, if you could even find such a thing. Finding that you can't duplicate the experience of a $50k+ Steinway in a $2k digital is not surprising. And even the $10k digitals have their limitations.

But actions are so subjective. The fact that you didn't find the low-end Yamaha P-Series models too light, based on everything else you said, is kind of surprising. So you really need to try everything you can. From Yamaha, in addition to the low-end P-series and P-515 you mentioned, there's also the CP300. A Roland like the FP-90 could be worth looking at as well.


I get it about the prices. With VPC1, which feels almost like the real deal, I pay only for the action (I guess), so I was thinking I'd be able to get something just slightly more expensive, that would ultimately click with me.

Lower P-series is not too light, but heaviness is only one of the important parameters, it's not that simple, unfortunately. Otherwise it would suffice to put a sturdy, high-k spring under each key and call it a day. Hopefully I can try P-515 to tell if I like it, but I'm skeptical about it. I tried FP-90 and I didn't like it.

Originally Posted by anotherscott

polyphony is rarely an issue... but also, hard to compare. The V3 module has 256 polyphony, but can use up to 6 instances for every note you play... which means that, effectively, it can have less polyphony than some other model with 128 polyphony that only uses two instances per note. Also, intelligent "note stealing" on some models can make it nearly impossible to ever hear a dropped note, even if a model has lower polyphony.


This is troubling and consoling at the same time. Does the note stealing means if the instrument is running out of free channels it will cut off the quietest remnants of what was played previously?
Why doesn't Kawai start making a furniture stand for the vpc-1? I would think it would sell really well, as the vpc-1 is also very popular.

James? blush
Originally Posted by Pagan Min

Is my experience with digital pianos similar to yours

My experience with digital pianos has been fine so far, I practice daily on them. I recently got to try a Steinway B grand and it felt right at home.
Originally Posted by U3piano
Why doesn't Kawai start making a furniture stand for the vpc-1? I would think it would sell really well, as the vpc-1 is also very popular.

James? blush


I wish frown something looking nice, sturdy, fitting exactly with VPC1...and incorporate the pedal unit into the frame ^_^ yep that's me daydreaming right there laugh

Originally Posted by JoeT
[
My experience with digital pianos has been fine so far, I practice daily on them. I recently got to try a Steinway B grand and it felt right at home.


What DP do you play?
You seem to have several misconceptions about DP’s. Unfortunately you are looking for the features of a $5000 to $10,000 hybrid on a $2000 budget. Finding something you will like before buying requires you testing them. You say the stores don’t have popular models like the CA78. Are you going to a Kawai dealer that also sells new acoustic pianos? I ask because you mentioned “music stores” and also contacting Thomans. Kawai and Yamaha have many dealers in the US, including Florida. Last, the prices you have been getting from the salesman you talked to are way out of line. It sounds like you know that, but aren’t having much success. Maybe finding another “authorized” dealer on the Kawai and Yamaha web sites will offer better results.
I would save you the possible aggravation of searching for your digital piano but in the end it's your decision that matters the most. What I could do is let you know what I did and make my recommendation. In my opinion go for the VPC-1 it will serve your needs if that's all you are looking for. If you are looking for the perfect DP that perfectly matches the action, sonority, feel of an actual acoustic piano you are searching for a unicorn. If you are looking for a fancy piece of furniture to impress the Joneses, look elsewhere. If you are just looking for a good digital piano that would serve as an instrument that you could practice on and not necessarily hinder your abilities if you eventually choose to play on an acoustic piano or in my case go back and forth between an acoustic or digital piano the VPC-1 should serve your needs. It's not a perfect machine, but it should meet your need. I highly recommend pairing it with Pianoteq 6 and a fast computer with a solid state drive. At that point just pick your go to piano sound and you are done. For a stand I also recommend the K & M 953. It doesn't perfectly match the base of the VPC 1 but it is perfectly stable so long as you using it only at home. If you were on the road and there is a risk of someone running into it on the stage you may want to go with another K & M model but this table stand can be lowered to the correct height of an actual grand, the others I have read are too high. I purchased the stand for $150 overseas from Thomann. The VPC-1 won't fall off it if that worries you and it is completely stable. This set-up (not including the computer which I assume you have- it's easy to add a SSD BTW and relatively cheap) is less than the $2000 requirement you cited and if you add the $199 for Pianoteq 6 it should get you right around your price range. There could be updates made to the VPC-1 (VPC-2) but those upgrades may make the cost unappealing to most. For what it does this set-up is about as good as it gets. ( Oh and BTW, on balance this set-up because it is a natural marriage between Kawai's action, it's professionally calibrated touch velocities, and PIANOTEQ- which honestly is probably the best piano modeled sound/response/sensitivity taking all these factors into effect on the market today, you are getting a $2000 set-up that rivals and beats set-ups costing 5X as much. But that is a secret between you and I, we don't want to wake the mob)
Originally Posted by U3piano
Personally I wouldn't really consider a cp300...I have the cp33, it is the cheaper version of the cp300 with less sounds, functions and no speakers, but the same (gh) action and same basic piano sounds.

What you say about the CP33 is true on paper, but for some reason, I think the CP300 is nicer to play, and I'm not the only one who has experienced that.

Originally Posted by U3piano
Its a very old model that's still beeing sold.

True, but for a lot of people, it just hits the right buttons. I believe it was actually discontinued for a while, but they brought it back (at a higher price!) apparently because of the continued demand. Old isn't always worse. I'm among those who think the Korg SV1 (2009, but still in production) is still the best board for EPs.

Originally Posted by U3piano
The action is quite heavy, i think it's one of the heaviest actions on a dp, but not realistic. (again, imo).

It is a heavy-ish action, which is one reason I thought the OP might like it. Also, being in a 75 lb box, it is super solid, and probably not inclined to wobble at all on any half decent stand that could hold it.

Originally Posted by U3piano
The 515 is probably a much better choice in action and sound.

Probably... but it is subjective, and I would not rule out the possibility of someone liking the CP300 more.


Of course the things i stated are all just my opinion, and to each his own of course. The fact that it's still beeing sold must mean something! But still i think it's incredibly overpriced for what it is, after a quick check i saw it is €2300 on Thomann right now. shocked

That's more than a kawai mp11se, and almost €1000 more than a yamaha p515, why?

In this case, for that kind of money you could get a vpc-1 + vst's + monitors + headphones, or a kawai ca78 (after a little negotiating) or with some luck even a used nu1.

On a more positive note about these cp's, this cp33 is build so well it's probably hard to destroy, and i really believe it would last a lifetime, even if played heavily. Its a tank, and i suspect the cp300 is no different.
Originally Posted by Pagan Min

From what you say I feel like 127 should be inaccessible or barely accessible unless you take a wrecking ball. Also sound should be louder for more force, but I feel like the slope of loudness vs force curve should be flattening toward the end.

This is adjustable on any decent board, though more adjustable on some than others.

Originally Posted by Pagan Min
It's being said that VPC1 comes with F-30 pedal unit supporting half pedaling. I'm not sure if this means it goes from 0 to 1 continuously depending on the amount you press it, or it jumps from 0 to 1/2, and then jumps to 1, with some ranges of pressure on the pedal for each.

Standard MIDI values are integers ranging from 0 (off) to 127. When it comes to sustain, there are different possible implementations, but there are no values between 0 and 1. So your question should be more like, does the pedal go from 0 to 127 continuously, or does it jump from 0 to 64 and then jump to 127. And I believe the answer is, it depends.

Originally Posted by Pagan Min

heaviness is only one of the important parameters, it's not that simple, unfortunately. Otherwise it would suffice to put a sturdy, high-k spring under each key and call it a day.

True that heaviness is one of numerous parameters, but a tighter spring is not what makes one hammer action heavier than another. In fact, the semi-weighted (hammerless) actions that use heavier springs have the unfortunate side effect of pushing back hard on the return, something that doesn't happen with a real piano mechanism.

Originally Posted by Pagan Min

Does the note stealing means if the instrument is running out of free {notes} it will cut off the quietest remnants of what was played previously?

If it's done correctly, yes. But some instruments (more likely non piano-specific keyboards) cut off the oldest played note, rather than what will be the least noticeable (or as you put it, the quietest remnants).
Originally Posted by TomLC
You seem to have several misconceptions about DP’s. Unfortunately you are looking for the features of a $5000 to $10,000 hybrid on a $2000 budget. Finding something you will like before buying requires you testing them. You say the stores don’t have popular models like the CA78. Are you going to a Kawai dealer that also sells new acoustic pianos? I ask because you mentioned “music stores” and also contacting Thomans. Kawai and Yamaha have many dealers in the US, including Florida. Last, the prices you have been getting from the salesman you talked to are way out of line. It sounds like you know that, but aren’t having much success. Maybe finding another “authorized” dealer on the Kawai and Yamaha web sites will offer better results.


The local Kawai dealer is really a Kawai dealer (it appears on Kawai website when I search for Kawai dealers in my area) and yes, they also sell acoustic pianos. I don't want an acoustic piano though, I'm living in a rental place, and my roommates probably would not appreciate that. The dealer argues that he buys for retail price. When I asked him about a specific model he looked on the Kawai website and quoted me the same price + shipping, so I don't think he is managing his business ideally, but what do I know.

The prices can be bent a lot, judging from the spreadsheet here on the forum. VPC1 for $1800 has a pretty good action (if I can't find anything better, I will buy VPC1, a table or a stand and a software), so I was thinking...just $200 more and maybe the action can be even better? If "no" is the answer across all possible brands and models, then I can happily buy VPC1, because that means it is the absolute best thing for that price. smile

Originally Posted by Jethro
I would save you the possible aggravation of searching for your digital piano but in the end it's your decision that matters the most. What I could do is let you know what I did and make my recommendation. In my opinion go for the VPC-1 it will serve your needs if that's all you are looking for. If you are looking for the perfect DP that perfectly matches the action, sonority, feel of an actual acoustic piano you are searching for a unicorn. If you are looking for a fancy piece of furniture to impress the Joneses, look elsewhere. If you are just looking for a good digital piano that would serve as an instrument that you could practice on and not necessarily hinder your abilities if you eventually choose to play on an acoustic piano or in my case go back and forth between an acoustic or digital piano the VPC-1 should serve your needs. It's not a perfect machine, but it should meet your need. I highly recommend pairing it with Pianoteq 6 and a fast computer with a solid state drive. At that point just pick your go to piano sound and you are done. For a stand I also recommend the K & M 953. It doesn't perfectly match the base of the VPC 1 but it is perfectly stable so long as you using it only at home. If you were on the road and there is a risk of someone running into it on the stage you may want to go with another K & M model but this table stand can be lowered to the correct height of an actual grand, the others I have read are too high. I purchased the stand for $150 overseas from Thomann. The VPC-1 won't fall off it if that worries you and it is completely stable. This set-up (not including the computer which I assume you have- it's easy to add a SSD BTW and relatively cheap) is less than the $2000 requirement you cited and if you add the $199 for Pianoteq 6 it should get you right around your price range. There could be updates made to the VPC-1 (VPC-2) but those upgrades may make the cost unappealing to most. For what it does this set-up is about as good as it gets. ( Oh and BTW, on balance this set-up because it is a natural marriage between Kawai's action, it's professionally calibrated touch velocities, and PIANOTEQ- which honestly is probably the best piano modeled sound/response/sensitivity taking all these factors into effect on the market today, you are getting a $2000 set-up that rivals and beats set-ups costing 5X as much. But that is a secret between you and I, we don't want to wake the mob)


I'm definitely not trying to impress anyone, but if the instrument wobbles in front of me I start to worry about my safety smile also, the reason I was looking for a smaller, sturdy, table is, that it has a somewhat more "permanent" feeling to it (no stages, it's for my home practice). However I understand that tables are probably not designed to sustain the weight of VPC1, by default, so a stand might be a better option, so thank you for your tip smile

I have a good computer with SSD already mounted (gamer here).

I understand that a lot of people love Pianoteq and praise it, but is anyone able to assess Ravenscroft 275? I watched this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kV4__tns0Q initially the notes seem to be distorted (are my ears playing with me? maybe it's my speakers/the way he recorded it...), but I like the overall setup and I also like when he plays super forte, he still doesn't seem to reach that dynamic limit I mentioned previously.
Originally Posted by Pagan Min
Originally Posted by TomLC
You seem to have several misconceptions about DP’s. Unfortunately you are looking for the features of a $5000 to $10,000 hybrid on a $2000 budget. Finding something you will like before buying requires you testing them. You say the stores don’t have popular models like the CA78. Are you going to a Kawai dealer that also sells new acoustic pianos? I ask because you mentioned “music stores” and also contacting Thomans. Kawai and Yamaha have many dealers in the US, including Florida. Last, the prices you have been getting from the salesman you talked to are way out of line. It sounds like you know that, but aren’t having much success. Maybe finding another “authorized” dealer on the Kawai and Yamaha web sites will offer better results.


The local Kawai dealer is really a Kawai dealer (it appears on Kawai website when I search for Kawai dealers in my area) and yes, they also sell acoustic pianos. I don't want an acoustic piano though, I'm living in a rental place, and my roommates probably would not appreciate that. The dealer argues that he buys for retail price. When I asked him about a specific model he looked on the Kawai website and quoted me the same price + shipping, so I don't think he is managing his business ideally, but what do I know.

The prices can be bent a lot, judging from the spreadsheet here on the forum. VPC1 for $1800 has a pretty good action (if I can't find anything better, I will buy VPC1, a table or a stand and a software), so I was thinking...just $200 more and maybe the action can be even better? If "no" is the answer across all possible brands and models, then I can happily buy VPC1, because that means it is the absolute best thing for that price. smile

Originally Posted by Jethro
I would save you the possible aggravation of searching for your digital piano but in the end it's your decision that matters the most. What I could do is let you know what I did and make my recommendation. In my opinion go for the VPC-1 it will serve your needs if that's all you are looking for. If you are looking for the perfect DP that perfectly matches the action, sonority, feel of an actual acoustic piano you are searching for a unicorn. If you are looking for a fancy piece of furniture to impress the Joneses, look elsewhere. If you are just looking for a good digital piano that would serve as an instrument that you could practice on and not necessarily hinder your abilities if you eventually choose to play on an acoustic piano or in my case go back and forth between an acoustic or digital piano the VPC-1 should serve your needs. It's not a perfect machine, but it should meet your need. I highly recommend pairing it with Pianoteq 6 and a fast computer with a solid state drive. At that point just pick your go to piano sound and you are done. For a stand I also recommend the K & M 953. It doesn't perfectly match the base of the VPC 1 but it is perfectly stable so long as you using it only at home. If you were on the road and there is a risk of someone running into it on the stage you may want to go with another K & M model but this table stand can be lowered to the correct height of an actual grand, the others I have read are too high. I purchased the stand for $150 overseas from Thomann. The VPC-1 won't fall off it if that worries you and it is completely stable. This set-up (not including the computer which I assume you have- it's easy to add a SSD BTW and relatively cheap) is less than the $2000 requirement you cited and if you add the $199 for Pianoteq 6 it should get you right around your price range. There could be updates made to the VPC-1 (VPC-2) but those upgrades may make the cost unappealing to most. For what it does this set-up is about as good as it gets. ( Oh and BTW, on balance this set-up because it is a natural marriage between Kawai's action, it's professionally calibrated touch velocities, and PIANOTEQ- which honestly is probably the best piano modeled sound/response/sensitivity taking all these factors into effect on the market today, you are getting a $2000 set-up that rivals and beats set-ups costing 5X as much. But that is a secret between you and I, we don't want to wake the mob)


I'm definitely not trying to impress anyone, but if the instrument wobbles in front of me I start to worry about my safety smile also, the reason I was looking for a smaller, sturdy, table is, that it has a somewhat more "permanent" feeling to it (no stages, it's for my home practice). However I understand that tables are probably not designed to sustain the weight of VPC1, by default, so a stand might be a better option, so thank you for your tip smile

I have a good computer with SSD already mounted (gamer here).

I understand that a lot of people love Pianoteq and praise it, but is anyone able to assess Ravenscroft 275? I watched this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kV4__tns0Q initially the notes seem to be distorted (are my ears playing with me? maybe it's my speakers/the way he recorded it...), but I like the overall setup and I also like when he plays super forte, he still doesn't seem to reach that dynamic limit I mentioned previously.


The K & M 953 for $150 is the one I would recommend. It will not wobble on you at all. It is rock solid and as small a footprint as you want for the VPC-1. The only argument I could see against it is that it is slightly smaller than the base of the VPC-1, but once it's on there it's solid as a rock unless someone were to literally run into it. But I throw everything at it with advanced classical music and my hands at times flying everywhere and it doesn't appear to budge at all.

I have the Ravenscroft 275. It sounds beautiful and would be a good VST for recordings, but IF your purpose is to learn how to play the piano stick with Pianoteq. Everyone who plays a DP should probably be using that software instead of the onboard sounds if they are serious about learning how to play the piano unless they have a hybrid. If you plan to do a lot of recordings there are better sounding VSTs you could purchase that match with the calibrated touch velocity presets on the VPC-1 well, but I wouldn't practice on them.
Originally Posted by Jethro

The K & M 953 for $150 is the one I would recommend. It will not wobble on you at all. It is rock solid and as small a footprint as you want for the VPC-1. The only argument I could see against it is that it is slightly smaller than the base of the VPC-1, but once it's on there it's solid as a rock unless someone were to literally run into it. But I throw everything at it with advanced classical music and my hands at times flying everywhere and it doesn't appear to budge at all.


I appreciate it, sounds amazing.

Originally Posted by Jethro

I have the Ravenscroft 275. It sounds beautiful and would be a good VST for recordings, but IF your purpose is to learn how to play the piano stick with Pianoteq. Everyone who plays a DP should probably be using that software instead of the onboard sounds unless they have a hybrid.


The way you worded this makes me think...is there any specific reason why Ravenscroft is not a good software for piano practice? Does it teach some bad habits to pianists?
Originally Posted by Pagan Min
Originally Posted by JoeT
[
My experience with digital pianos has been fine so far, I practice daily on them. I recently got to try a Steinway B grand and it felt right at home.


What DP do you play?

They are listed my forum signature: Kawai ES100 and Yamaha P-515.
Originally Posted by Pagan Min
The dealer argues that he buys for retail price. When I asked him about a specific model he looked on the Kawai website and quoted me the same price + shipping, so I don't think he is managing his business ideally, but what do I know.

Having been in the Value Added Resale (VAR) business, I think that retailer is lying through his teeth, if, as you pointed out, he is a legit Kawai reseller. Let me say it again. THAT RETAILER IS LYING THROUGH HIS TEETH.

There. Now I feel better. grin
Originally Posted by Pagan Min
Originally Posted by Jethro

The K & M 953 for $150 is the one I would recommend. It will not wobble on you at all. It is rock solid and as small a footprint as you want for the VPC-1. The only argument I could see against it is that it is slightly smaller than the base of the VPC-1, but once it's on there it's solid as a rock unless someone were to literally run into it. But I throw everything at it with advanced classical music and my hands at times flying everywhere and it doesn't appear to budge at all.


I appreciate it, sounds amazing.

Originally Posted by Jethro

I have the Ravenscroft 275. It sounds beautiful and would be a good VST for recordings, but IF your purpose is to learn how to play the piano stick with Pianoteq. Everyone who plays a DP should probably be using that software instead of the onboard sounds unless they have a hybrid.


The way you worded this makes me think...is there any specific reason why Ravenscroft is not a good software for piano practice? Does it teach some bad habits to pianists?


There's nothing wrong with the Ravenscroft 275, it's just not as sensitive to your input as Pianoteq 6. I have both, I spend 99% of my time on Pianoteq.
Originally Posted by Pagan Min
[*]The action of digital pianos always feels too light

[*]Dynamics...with acoustic pianos you can always go further, always put a little more force, and get different timbre, especially with grand pianos, you can never "overdo" the force

My teacher has a Yamaha baby grand and a piano called "Bach", apparently an older vintage.
The Yammy feels slightly lighter than my VPC1 but the Bach... OMG. It feels as if I can breathe and the keys actuate. It is ridiculously light. Compared to it, playing my VPC1 feels like pushing bricks.

So key weight varies heavily among acoustics.

As for the dynamics: I find it very difficult to get a quiet, mellow tone out of the Yamaha (I usually don't play the Bach, too disturbing :S ).
My touch is always too harsh to the point that the piano starts distorting / rattling(?), the tone isn't pure at all and sounds rather mean.
I agree though, there is an upper limit, the sound is still "neat" and you never get to the ugly "the instrument cries in pain". Maybe a good thing if you have the motor "skills" of a lumberjack like me. :X
Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
Originally Posted by Pete14
I don’t see the Ballsandorfer happening anytime soon. After all, it’s owned by Yamaha, and I have a feeling that they are not interested in this partnership.

Maybe you're right, but they might introduce it as "Vienna XXL" or something similar. smile

Yes. We do of course have a PTQ Yamaha, but called something obscure.
Oh--not supposed to mention that... cry
Originally Posted by Groove On
Yes your experience is normal. Digital pianos are not acoustic pianos. Get your hands on as many DPs as you can until you find one that is good enough for what you want to do. If none of them can pass your standards, stick with an acoustic piano.

FWIW - The best action, best piano simulation, best piano sound/response and the best speaker system are never-ending topics around here, so you should fit right in. That rabbit hole goes pretty deep. Good luck! grin


+1.

For decent string-resonance simulation, try a medium-to-high-end Kawai or Roland (with "SuperNatural Modelling" -- e.g. Roland FP90, which fits your budget). There will be a menu option to increase the amount of resonance. If "default" is 5, try using 7 or 8 to approach "acoustic piano" sound.

No low-end DP has adequate resonance simulation. Some expensive DP's don't bother, either.

DP's (all of the inexpensive models, and some of the mid-to-high-price models) are much "cleaner" than acoustic pianos. The more you spend, the closer you'll approach an acoustic's feel, and sound.


PS -- if you think the keyboard is "too light", there will be a "Touch" parameter in the menu system. Set it to "Heavy" (or some number higher than the default), and see if that helps. It doesn't change the physical weight of the keys, but it forces you to play harder, before you reach the DP's "fff" volume and tone limits.
Originally Posted by Granyala
Originally Posted by Pagan Min
[*]The action of digital pianos always feels too light

[*]Dynamics...with acoustic pianos you can always go further, always put a little more force, and get different timbre, especially with grand pianos, you can never "overdo" the force

My teacher has a Yamaha baby grand and a piano called "Bach", apparently an older vintage.
The Yammy feels slightly lighter than my VPC1 but the Bach... OMG. It feels as if I can breathe and the keys actuate. It is ridiculously light. Compared to it, playing my VPC1 feels like pushing bricks.

So key weight varies heavily among acoustics.

As for the dynamics: I find it very difficult to get a quiet, mellow tone out of the Yamaha (I usually don't play the Bach, too disturbing :S ).
My touch is always too harsh to the point that the piano starts distorting / rattling(?), the tone isn't pure at all and sounds rather mean.
I agree though, there is an upper limit, the sound is still "neat" and you never get to the ugly "the instrument cries in pain". Maybe a good thing if you have the motor "skills" of a lumberjack like me. :X

This is a good point. In general, the way to go will always be with a true acoustic and even then their actions vary widely. But as for an acceptable substitute to an acoustic the VPC1 with Pianoteq is as good as it gets at any price range. As far as I know there isn't a DP out there today that perfectly matches the feel of playing an actual acoustic other than some of the better hybrids out there that have both the DP and an acoustical component built in.
Originally Posted by Pagan Min

I understand that a lot of people love Pianoteq and praise it, but is anyone able to assess Ravenscroft 275? I watched this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kV4__tns0Q initially the notes seem to be distorted (are my ears playing with me? maybe it's my speakers/the way he recorded it...), but I like the overall setup and I also like when he plays super forte, he still doesn't seem to reach that dynamic limit I mentioned previously.


Like i said before i actually just bought the Ravenscroft vst from one of our forum members, and i really like it. I also have Garritan cfx full version, which is considered one of the best (if not the best) by many, so that's what i compare it with. At this moment i have to say, i prefer it even to the cfx, but that might also have something to do with the fact it's new to me right now, and I have played the cfx quite some time already.

About the cfx: It's very beautiful, playability is top notch, the interface is the best i know of, really user friendly. Many love it, including me, hard not to like it. There is a lite and a full version, and I would not recommend the lite version, because it doesn't include the player mic positions, and to me, these are the best.

But.. while absolutely gorgeous sounding.. sometimes i find the sound of the cfx a bit too clean, or.. clinical, hard to describe. I get bored with it sometimes, and thats why i bought the Ravenscroft.

The Ravenscroft is also beautiful, but different, it's more of a bold, close.. in your face type sound. (I might not be the best at describing piano sound) But it's extremely inspiring to play. The most inspiring out of any vst i tried so far, i can hardly stop playing it. To me it beats the cfx in that aspect. It's playability is also top notch, just like the cfx. The user interface is allright, but i like the garritan interface alot more. Another strong point for the Ravenscroft is it somehow makes me feel more like playing an acoustic instrument than the cfx.

I think you can't really go wrong with either one of these. Take my preference for the Ravenscroft vs the Cfx with a little grain of salt, because i just have it for 2 days now, but that's how i feel at the moment.

Sometimes i try the pianoteq demo's, and even when the playability is probably the best of all, and it has a superb interface, i just don't seem to like the sound of it.

Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
But I think they recently changed the product such that you get to choose which pianos you get, if you buy Pianoteq. When I bought, the Steinway D and K2 were mandatory for the Stage version, but I believe now there is a free choice of two pianos.


That is correct, the two packs included with the base license are now any two you choose.
Try one of the Casio GP-(3/4/500) You might just like them.
Originally Posted by U3piano
Originally Posted by Pagan Min

I understand that a lot of people love Pianoteq and praise it, but is anyone able to assess Ravenscroft 275? I watched this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kV4__tns0Q initially the notes seem to be distorted (are my ears playing with me? maybe it's my speakers/the way he recorded it...), but I like the overall setup and I also like when he plays super forte, he still doesn't seem to reach that dynamic limit I mentioned previously.


Like i said before i actually just bought the Ravenscroft vst from one of our forum members, and i really like it. I also have Garritan cfx full version, which is considered one of the best (if not the best) by many, so that's what i compare it with. At this moment i have to say, i prefer it even to the cfx, but that might also have something to do with the fact it's new to me right now, and I have played the cfx quite some time already.

About the cfx: It's very beautiful, playability is top notch, the interface is the best i know of, really user friendly. Many love it, including me, hard not to like it. There is a lite and a full version, and I would not recommend the lite version, because it doesn't include the player mic positions, and to me, these are the best.

But.. while absolutely gorgeous sounding.. sometimes i find the sound of the cfx a bit too clean, or.. clinical, hard to describe. I get bored with it sometimes, and thats why i bought the Ravenscroft.

The Ravenscroft is also beautiful, but different, it's more of a bold, close.. in your face type sound. (I might not be the best at describing piano sound) But it's extremely inspiring to play. The most inspiring out of any vst i tried so far, i can hardly stop playing it. To me it beats the cfx in that aspect. It's playability is also top notch, just like the cfx. The user interface is allright, but i like the garritan interface alot more. Another strong point for the Ravenscroft is it somehow makes me feel more like playing an acoustic instrument than the cfx.

I think you can't really go wrong with either one of these. Take my preference for the Ravenscroft vs the Cfx with a little grain of salt, because i just have it for 2 days now, but that's how i feel at the moment.

[Sometimes i try the pianoteq demo's, and even when the playability is probably the best of all, and it has a superb interface, i just don't seem to like the sound of it.
[


Don't make the mistake of just choosing a VST for how it sounds. If you are just collecting VST like some sort of stamp collector, yeah there are better sounding VSTs than Pianoteq though the latest edition piano models are very very good. For pianist what should matter most IS playability. Playing the piano is all about fine control. If you had to choose between sound quality and control and you are a serious pianist or just learning to play the piano choose control every time. A big part of making music is phrasing and shaping musical lines. Pianoteq gives you finer control of your tone production especially with phrasing. If all you had to your disposal was sampled VSTS like those found onboard modern DPs you will lack the ability to develop your ability to phrase well. And you will be behind your peers in this aspect of your piano technique if you were ever to switch to an acoustic piano or were to give a recital on an acoustic piano. Pianoteq simply provides the best interface between your finger input and tone production on a digital piano. I have no bias against VSTS, I own the Ravenscroft 275 app and software version. If I were making a recording I would probably choose that sample as well, but for serious playing I want maximum control and choose Pianoteq because in my opinion its the best on the market today.
Jethro,

I understand what you are saying, and i do agree control is very important, but to me the actual sound is as important as the control over it. Because, it's rewarding and inspiring to hear a sound that's beautiful to me, it keeps me playing. I don't think an instrument with a great control over an awful sound would be inspiring.

Luckily for us all, the sound of pianoteq and the control of other good vst's like the ones i mentioned is nowhere near bad. These days are behind us. cool I think virtual piano quality is pretty high these days, and different ones just have different quality's and advantages over eachother, and we can choose which one we like to use!
Originally Posted by U3piano
the control of other good vst's like the ones i mentioned is nowhere near bad. These days are behind us. cool

You're making it sound like you somewhat agree with Jethro when what you are saying Is exactly the opposite. Jethro is say the playability of other VSTs is significantly worse.

That said, you and I may not be at the skill level of Jethro and computerpro3 who said something similar, and for us who don't know how to shape phrases anyways, it may not really matter what VST we use.
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by U3piano
the control of other good vst's like the ones i mentioned is nowhere near bad. These days are behind us. cool

You're making it sound like you somewhat agree with Jethro when what you are saying Is exactly the opposite. Jethro is say the playability of other VSTs is significantly worse.

That said, you and I may not be at the skill level of Jethro and computerpro3 who said something similar, and for us who don't know how to shape phrases anyways, it may not really matter what VST we use.


smile. It might not now, but it will in the very near future for many of you newbies out there!
Originally Posted by U3piano
Jethro,

I understand what you are saying, and i do agree control is very important, but to me the actual sound is as important as the control over it. Because, it's rewarding and inspiring to hear a sound that's beautiful to me, it keeps me playing. I don't think an instrument with a great control over an awful sound would be inspiring.

Luckily for us all, the sound of pianoteq and the control of other good vst's like the ones i mentioned is nowhere near bad. These days are behind us. cool I think virtual piano quality is pretty high these days, and different ones just have different quality's and advantages over eachother, and we can choose which one we like to use!


I think you are going to have to switch your source of inspiration from the sound of the piano to the sound of the music you will actually be playing. Let the music be your inspiration and acquire the proper tools to make beautiful music. You are not going to last very long in this art if you are only focused on the instrument and not the music. There are plenty of high quality acoustic grands gathering dust. I have one on sale right now wink https://www.pianomart.com/buy-a-piano/view?id=37313.
Originally Posted by Jethro
smile. It might not now, but it will in the very near future for many of you newbies out there!

I don't know man.... it's probably a decade or two away for me.
IF I can even get that kind of motor control over my always shaky hands at all.
Originally Posted by Jethro

The K & M 953 for $150 is the one I would recommend. It will not wobble on you at all. It is rock solid and as small a footprint as you want for the VPC-1. The only argument I could see against it is that it is slightly smaller than the base of the VPC-1, but once it's on there it's solid as a rock unless someone were to literally run into it. But I throw everything at it with advanced classical music and my hands at times flying everywhere and it doesn't appear to budge at all.


Would you please provide more details about that K & M 953 stand? Amazon does not yield anything relevant, neither does google search...I mean I can find specifically K & M stands, but not 953 specifically...is it discontinued? Is there a comparable current replacement? Thanks.
Originally Posted by Pagan Min
Originally Posted by Jethro

The K & M 953 for $150 is the one I would recommend. It will not wobble on you at all. It is rock solid and as small a footprint as you want for the VPC-1. The only argument I could see against it is that it is slightly smaller than the base of the VPC-1, but once it's on there it's solid as a rock unless someone were to literally run into it. But I throw everything at it with advanced classical music and my hands at times flying everywhere and it doesn't appear to budge at all.


Would you please provide more details about that K & M 953 stand? Amazon does not yield anything relevant, neither does google search...I mean I can find specifically K & M stands, but not 953 specifically...is it discontinued? Is there a comparable current replacement? Thanks.

Sorry, 18953 is the model number. https://www.thomann.de/gb/km_18953.htm Around $150 shipped no VAT to US. My knees don't hit the stand, but I guess it depends on your size. I have the stand lowered to it's lowest setting and I measured the height of the key bed against my acoustic and they match.
Originally Posted by Pagan Min
Originally Posted by Jethro

The K & M 953 for $150 is the one I would recommend. It will not wobble on you at all. It is rock solid and as small a footprint as you want for the VPC-1. The only argument I could see against it is that it is slightly smaller than the base of the VPC-1, but once it's on there it's solid as a rock unless someone were to literally run into it. But I throw everything at it with advanced classical music and my hands at times flying everywhere and it doesn't appear to budge at all.


Would you please provide more details about that K & M 953 stand? Amazon does not yield anything relevant, neither does google search...I mean I can find specifically K & M stands, but not 953 specifically...is it discontinued? Is there a comparable current replacement? Thanks.



I believe this (https://www.amazon.com/18953-Table-Style-Stage-Keyboard-Capacity/dp/B072DTQSCC) is the one being referred to, but I could be wrong because this stand is about $240. Musician's Friend also has it, but does not list it as the model 18953. I have this stand and ordered it from MF. Solid stand but my knees still hit the stand sometime (though not nearly as much as with a traditional x stand), so I am going to get another stand that has no parts that can hit my knees.
Originally Posted by Jethro


I think you are going to have to switch your source of inspiration from the sound of the piano to the sound of the music you will actually be playing. Let the music be your inspiration and acquire the proper tools to make beautiful music. You are not going to last very long in this art if you are only focused on the instrument and not the music. There are plenty of high quality acoustic grands gathering dust. I have one on sale right now wink https://www.pianomart.com/buy-a-piano/view?id=37313.


But but but... the music im actually playing sounds better with a beautiful piano sound. blush That's the whole point of having a piano that sounds nice, isn't it? If the actual sound wouldn't matter much, why wouldn't every player in the world just buy hybrid digital piano's, or vpc1's with pianoteq?

About that grand.. I would absolutely love to have a grand like that! But i can't afford it, or have the space to place it in.
Originally Posted by U3piano
Originally Posted by Jethro


I think you are going to have to switch your source of inspiration from the sound of the piano to the sound of the music you will actually be playing. Let the music be your inspiration and acquire the proper tools to make beautiful music. You are not going to last very long in this art if you are only focused on the instrument and not the music. There are plenty of high quality acoustic grands gathering dust. I have one on sale right now wink https://www.pianomart.com/buy-a-piano/view?id=37313.


But but but... the music im actually playing sounds better with a beautiful piano sound. blush That's the whole point of having a piano that sounds nice, isn't it? If the actual sound wouldn't matter much, why wouldn't every player in the world just buy hybrid digital piano's, or vpc1's with pianoteq?

About that grand.. I would absolutely love to have a grand like that! But i can't afford it, or have the space to place it in.







Heh, of course it matters to a degree. But comparing Pianoteq to most VST's out there and some of the piano models available they are of high quality and not much to like. Look at it this way. Steinway just endorsed their Model B and D on that program. Bluthner, Grotian, Bechstein, Yamaha all put their stamp of approval on that product. These manufacturers I believe know something about what makes a good piano wink.

All these professional artists put their stamp of approval on it as well: https://www.pianoteq.com/references
Originally Posted by Jethro
Steinway just endorsed their Model B and D on that program.

From hands-on experience I can tell, that Pianoteq B does not sound nor play like the real Steinway Model B.

In fact my Yamaha P-515 is much closer to it.
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Jethro
Steinway just endorsed their Model B and D on that program.

From hands-on experience I can tell, that Pianoteq B does not sound nor play like the real Steinway Model B.

In fact my Yamaha P-515 is much closer to it.

One of my favorite pianos that Steinway B, practiced on it for a few years at a conservatory in Harvard Square. Agree, not the best sound on Pianoteq but acceptable to practice on. The dynamics are there.
Originally Posted by Jethro
Agree, not the best sound on Pianoteq but acceptable to practice on. The dynamics are there.

Dynamics-wise my Yamaha digital reacts almost exactly like the real Model B. Pianoteq is all over the place on the same action. Tone-wise the Yamaha is not as good as the real thing, but pretty close. Pianoteq OTOH not even close. And latency comes as an additional bonus.
Originally Posted by Jethro
Heh, of course it matters to a degree. But comparing Pianoteq to most VST's out there and some of the piano models available they are of high quality and not much to like. Look at it this way. Steinway just endorsed their Model B and D on that program. Bluthner, Grotian, Bechstein, Yamaha all put their stamp of approval on that product. These manufacturers I believe know something about what makes a good piano wink.

All these professional artists put their stamp of approval on it as well: https://www.pianoteq.com/references

Where were you hiding, Jethro, when just recently got into the recent contretemps on Pianoteq's endorsements? smile I could have used a hand! laugh
Originally Posted by Jethro
One of my favorite pianos that Steinway B, practiced on it for a few years at a conservatory in Harvard Square.

Another Cantab?
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Jethro
Steinway just endorsed their Model B and D on that program.

From hands-on experience I can tell, that Pianoteq B does not sound nor play like the real Steinway Model B.

In fact my Yamaha P-515 is much closer to it.

Yep, that's where the VPC-1 shines. There is a closer integration with Pianoteq and a few other VST packages with the professional collaboration between their engineers. Kawai worked closely with Pianoteq engineers to optimize its playability with it's onboard touch presets. Does the P-515 have customizable velocity curve/ touch presets? That may explain why it does not play nice with Pianoteq.
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by Jethro
Heh, of course it matters to a degree. But comparing Pianoteq to most VST's out there and some of the piano models available they are of high quality and not much to like. Look at it this way. Steinway just endorsed their Model B and D on that program. Bluthner, Grotian, Bechstein, Yamaha all put their stamp of approval on that product. These manufacturers I believe know something about what makes a good piano wink.

All these professional artists put their stamp of approval on it as well: https://www.pianoteq.com/references

Where were you hiding, Jethro, when just recently got into the recent contretemps on Pianoteq's endorsements? smile I could have used a hand! laugh

I was practicing. LIKE ALL OF YOU SHOULD BE DOING AS WELL! smile I was just bored today and took a peek. Nice to know nothing has changed frown
Originally Posted by Jethro
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Jethro
Steinway just endorsed their Model B and D on that program.

From hands-on experience I can tell, that Pianoteq B does not sound nor play like the real Steinway Model B.

In fact my Yamaha P-515 is much closer to it.

Yep, that's where the VPC-1 shines. There is a closer integration with Pianoteq and a few other VST packages with the professional collaboration between their engineers. Kawai worked closely with Pianoteq engineers to optimize its playability with it's onboard touch presets. Does the P-515 have customizable velocity curve/ touch presets? That may explain why it does not play nice with Pianoteq.

The VPC1 doesn't have integrated amplification nor an integrated audio interface. And pedals without optical sensors. So a VPC1 is pretty much useless on its own. Yet it is as expensive as a P-515.

Of course, the P-515 has Touch presets and the default "Medium" behaves like a real grand playing the internal sample, no further customization needed.
Originally Posted by Jethro
Bluthner, Grotian, Bechstein, Yamaha all put their stamp of approval on that product. These manufacturers I believe know something about what makes a good piano wink.


Does this mean people who think Pianoteq sounds fake are wrong?
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by Jethro
Bluthner, Grotian, Bechstein, Yamaha all put their stamp of approval on that product. These manufacturers I believe know something about what makes a good piano wink.


Does this mean people who think Pianoteq sounds fake are wrong?


Absolutely not! Just means you haven't figured how to make it sound right for your playing system. It takes time and probably more than the DP audio which is tailored only to the DP piano.
Originally Posted by Jethro

Sorry, 18953 is the model number. https://www.thomann.de/gb/km_18953.htm Around $150 shipped no VAT to US. My knees don't hit the stand, but I guess it depends on your size. I have the stand lowered to it's lowest setting and I measured the height of the key bed against my acoustic and they match.


Originally Posted by TylerMorgan1

I believe this (https://www.amazon.com/18953-Table-Style-Stage-Keyboard-Capacity/dp/B072DTQSCC) is the one being referred to, but I could be wrong because this stand is about $240. Musician's Friend also has it, but does not list it as the model 18953. I have this stand and ordered it from MF. Solid stand but my knees still hit the stand sometime (though not nearly as much as with a traditional x stand), so I am going to get another stand that has no parts that can hit my knees.


Thank you guys, I appreciate it!



By the way, speaking of pedals...is there any way to make a better pedal unit work with VPC1, or is it designed specifically? Is it possible to get a standalone pedal unit that hooks to a computer?

Originally Posted by JoeT

The VPC1 doesn't have integrated amplification nor an integrated audio interface. And pedals without optical sensors. So a VPC1 is pretty much useless on its own. Yet it is as expensive as a P-515.

Of course, the P-515 has Touch presets and the default "Medium" behaves like a real grand playing the internal sample, no further customization needed.


Does the action on P-515 feel same or at least close to VPC's action though?

Originally Posted by Jethro
I was practicing. LIKE ALL OF YOU SHOULD BE DOING AS WELL! smile I was just bored today and took a peek. Nice to know nothing has changed frown


#lingling40hrs smile
Originally Posted by Pagan Min
#lingling40hrs smile

[Linked Image]
Originally Posted by Pagan Min

Does the action on P-515 feel same or at least close to VPC's action though?

Much better. But the Yamaha P-515 is a product half a decade newer, so this is to be expected.

The VPC1 is niche product for a small audience and now pretty much outdated. The MP series has seen two generations, since the MP10 got downstripped to the VPC1.
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by Jethro
Bluthner, Grotian, Bechstein, Yamaha all put their stamp of approval on that product. These manufacturers I believe know something about what makes a good piano wink.


Does this mean people who think Pianoteq sounds fake are wrong?

LOL. They all sound fake. Even the best VST's sound fake to me. But these aren't real pianos they ARE fake by definition. I wouldn't own 2 acoustics grands right now if I thought a DP could replace the real thing. I have one for sale by the way: https://www.pianomart.com/buy-a-piano/view?id=37313
Originally Posted by peterws
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by Jethro
Bluthner, Grotian, Bechstein, Yamaha all put their stamp of approval on that product. These manufacturers I believe know something about what makes a good piano wink.


Does this mean people who think Pianoteq sounds fake are wrong?


Absolutely not! Just means you haven't figured how to make it sound right for your playing system. It takes time and probably more than the DP audio which is tailored only to the DP piano.


Yes. You need a system so bad you can't tell the difference between Pianoteq and a decent sampled piano.
grin
Originally Posted by JoeT

The VPC1 is niche product for a small audience and now pretty much outdated. The MP series has seen two generations, since the MP10 got downstripped to the VPC1.


I feel so unsure now smirk I was ready to call it a day and order VPC. Cuz I quickly realized at the piano shop that nothing else comes even close in terms of the action and if it does, it costs amount I'm not willing to spend (at least twice the price of VPC). And here you come, saying that P-515 is better shocked

I guess I'll spam the vendor again to see if he can get a hold of P-515 for me to try...
Originally Posted by Pagan Min
Originally Posted by Jethro

Sorry, 18953 is the model number. https://www.thomann.de/gb/km_18953.htm Around $150 shipped no VAT to US. My knees don't hit the stand, but I guess it depends on your size. I have the stand lowered to it's lowest setting and I measured the height of the key bed against my acoustic and they match.


Originally Posted by TylerMorgan1

I believe this (https://www.amazon.com/18953-Table-Style-Stage-Keyboard-Capacity/dp/B072DTQSCC) is the one being referred to, but I could be wrong because this stand is about $240. Musician's Friend also has it, but does not list it as the model 18953. I have this stand and ordered it from MF. Solid stand but my knees still hit the stand sometime (though not nearly as much as with a traditional x stand), so I am going to get another stand that has no parts that can hit my knees.


Thank you guys, I appreciate it!



By the way, speaking of pedals...is there any way to make a better pedal unit work with VPC1, or is it designed specifically? Is it possible to get a standalone pedal unit that hooks to a computer?

Originally Posted by JoeT

The VPC1 doesn't have integrated amplification nor an integrated audio interface. And pedals without optical sensors. So a VPC1 is pretty much useless on its own. Yet it is as expensive as a P-515.

Of course, the P-515 has Touch presets and the default "Medium" behaves like a real grand playing the internal sample, no further customization needed.


Does the action on P-515 feel same or at least close to VPC's action though?

Originally Posted by Jethro
I was practicing. LIKE ALL OF YOU SHOULD BE DOING AS WELL! smile I was just bored today and took a peek. Nice to know nothing has changed frown


#lingling40hrs smile

I haven't figured out a solution for the pedals moving, but I haven't tried anything yet like double sided tape, but it hasn't hindered my playing in any major way. The pedals work fine by the way and are very sturdy. Kawai James has reassured me that any issues with the VPC-1 pedal sensors have been resolved in recent years from Fatar. So don't worry about the VPC-1's pedal reliability.
Originally Posted by Pagan Min
Originally Posted by JoeT

The VPC1 is niche product for a small audience and now pretty much outdated. The MP series has seen two generations, since the MP10 got downstripped to the VPC1.


I feel so unsure now smirk I was ready to call it a day and order VPC. Cuz I quickly realized at the piano shop that nothing else comes even close in terms of the action and if it does, it costs amount I'm not willing to spend (at least twice the price of VPC). And here you come, saying that P-515 is better shocked

I guess I'll spam the vendor again to see if he can get a hold of P-515 for me to try...

Like I said, I tried to save you the aggravation.... LOL.

It all comes down to, who do you trust?

To me it boiled down to the wonderful integration between the VPC-1 and Pianoteq. They collaborated on this project together along with a few other VST package engineers.

Before today I had not read any of the references on the Pianoteq website and I read this from one of dozens of professional artists:

"Working with digital pianos had always been an exercise in frustrating limitations, a bit like being forced to color by numbers with no more than 10 crayons at a time. Even high-end piano sample libraries have been extremely disappointing, offering exquisitely recorded piano sounds completely divorced from any real interaction or control of the sound beyond a relatively sparse range of touch. MODARTT PIANOTEQ, on the other hand, represents a stunning breakthrough, making it possible for the first time for a serious musician to work with a digital instrument that gives virtually the full color palette of a 'real' acoustic piano. PIANOTEQ responds in the widest dynamic range I've ever experienced in a computer instrument, from the most delicate pianissimos to keybed-thumping fortissimos, complete with all the physical phenomena that accompanies such deliveries like sympathetic vibrations, soundboard echo, and an amazing variance of hammer/string interactions. Damper control is amazingly continuous and realistic, enabling the most subtle tapers of note-ends and flutter pedal effects.
You can actually work on this virtual piano and start to discuss possibilities of tone, color, articulation - all the expressive qualities normally associated only with fully acoustic counterparts! Any digital piano will sound decent at a loud, narrow dynamic range, but PIANOTEQ really shines in the subtleties of pianissimo colorations and the full feel of control throughout sound production. As Josef Hoffman once marveled at the Duo-Art Piano Roll's capability to capture the essence of a great musical performance, I'm similarly inclined to marvel at the way PIANOTEQ is able to express the full musical intentions of the pianist, lending itself elegantly as an artistic tool for the pianists of today's digital age."
- classical pianist Hugh Sung

His impression of the Pianoteq program is the same as what I had concluded. The VPC-1 is one of if not THE best piano controller for Pianoteq because it was a joint collaboration between one of the best digital actions and one of if not the best piano software companies out there. What more is there to say?
Originally Posted by Jethro

Like I said, I tried to save you the aggravation.... LOL.

It all comes down to, who do you trust?


I guess reading forums always induces a bit of unease as everyone's opinion is different. But who I trust? Mostly myself, what I feel and hear when I sit and touch it, what I'm looking for is perhaps more like a guide as to which pianos I should try (in a sense what is even worth trying and what is not), but I'm pretty firmly against buying something blindly.

One more thing about VPC: though I say it didn't feel like the ideal real deal action, it felt pretty good. Not every piano I touch I like immediately, but I can get used to it.

But P-515 actually was something I planned on trying, it's just I have to get my hands on it somehow.

It's funny how guitar center's employees encourage customers to "just buy it, you can always return it and get a refund within 30 days". Most vendors don't like returns for no good reason, as they put in snarky, deterring comments like "we might charge restocking fee" etc.
Originally Posted by Pagan Min
Originally Posted by Jethro

Like I said, I tried to save you the aggravation.... LOL.

It all comes down to, who do you trust?


I guess reading forums always induces a bit of unease as everyone's opinion is different. But who I trust? Mostly myself, what I feel and hear when I sit and touch it, what I'm looking for is perhaps more like a guide as to which pianos I should try (in a sense what is even worth trying and what is not), but I'm pretty firmly against buying something blindly.

One more thing about VPC: though I say it didn't feel like the ideal real deal action, it felt pretty good. Not every piano I touch I like immediately, but I can get used to it.

But P-515 actually was something I planned on trying, it's just I have to get my hands on it somehow.

It's funny how guitar center's employees encourage customers to "just buy it, you can always return it and get a refund within 30 days". Most vendors don't like returns for no good reason, as they put in snarky, deterring comments like "we might charge restocking fee" etc.


Good for you. This is exactly process I used in buying my VPC-1. I had a lot of naysayers but followed my own judgement and experience in the end.
Originally Posted by Jethro

Good for you. This is exactly process I used in buying my VPC-1. I had a lot of naysayers but followed my own judgement and experience in the end.


How does P-515's action really feel to you, if you compare it to VPC1? Heavier? Lighter? Hammer feel or springy?
The models under discussion are hammer action, and I'd say that nothing with a hammer action ever feels springy.
Originally Posted by propianist


The main weakness of digital pianos is the loudspeaker system you hear them through. Whether it's built into the cabinet of a domestic digital piano (upright or baby grand style) or whether it's a stage piano or software running through some little bookshelf size studio monitors in your bedroom or a pair of cheap 2-way active plastic PA speakers. Frankly none of these can do justice to a concert grand piano sonic experience.
The cabinet digital piano's typical built-in 6.5 inch woofers NEVER have enough deep bass extension to replicate a 9 foot Steinway, nor the power, SPL and dynamic headroom to reproduce clean transient ffff peaks without distortion, so obviously manufacturers use all sorts of engineering workarounds to compress / limit and restrict the max output levels, or add Waves MaxxBass type effects to pretend there's bass extension where they've actually HPF filtered most of the very low bass out of the samples. It's a joke. To any serious audiophile.

If you've ever heard a digital piano or software piano being played back through a decent speaker system (think at least 4 way, or 3 way with subwoofers, and serious FIR corrected amplitude and phase responses, and FIR linear phase crossovers, etc. and capable of over 120dBSPL pink noise at the listening position without clipping the amplifiers) then you would be actually surprised to hear that many digital or software samples sound pretty good, and their velocity curves can be re-adjusted to give you a really convincing ffff punch at a believable SPL that matches the feel of a big concert grand in dynamic power, if that's what you want.

Remember also, that NO loudspeaker playback of a digital sampled piano (however good the speakers are) is ever going to fool you into thinking you're playing a real acoustic piano for numerous reasons.
It's only ever a recording of a piano being reproduced (a sonic 2 dimensional picture if you like) so you shouldn't expect the digital piano to sound more convincing than any other straightfoward recording of an acoustic piano. If you record your Steinway grand and play back, are you convinced you're hearing the real thing in front of you - no - but is that recording better or worse than the quality of "recording" you hear from a sampled piano playback if played through the same hi-fi speakers or headphones or whatever you listen on, keeping a level playing field...?

Before you buy a cabinet digital piano - play an iPod or CD player stereo track through the aux-in and the piano's built-in speakers and listen to how amazing audiophile hi-fi or NOT(!) the piano's loudspeaker system reproduction actually is. Chances are it's rather midrange peaky, and muffled, coloured, distorts at high volumes and totally lacking bass below 50Hz. There's your answer as to why that sampled piano experience sounds bad too.



Haven't read the whole thread, but I think this comment nails it. There are many things that make DP's sound and feel slightly "fake", but I think the loudspeaker system and the limitation of the sampling is chief among them. Hence: My preference when playing on a DP is using pianoteq and very good headphones, making sure that they have enough dynamic headroom. Pianoteq manages to model the experience of playing a piano much better than the sample-based pianos. And good headphones are better than mediocre speaker systems.

Concerning the action on DP's: YMMV. I also tend to the perceive the action DP's al as being generally a bit to the light side. The action on the NV10 is the only action I have perceived as 100 percent "real" (haven't tried the NX1 yet). But at the same time I also feel that DP actions are within the "acceptable range", kind of. Some pianos have lighter action, some are heavier. As a pianist it's important to be able to adjust to different actions. Going from a somewhat light DP action to a somewhat heavier acoustic action is in a way just such a readjustment, which is fine once you get used to it.

I don't THINK the action on your future DP will hold you back. But I could be wrong. Again, YMMV.

My advise would be to go for the VPC-1, pianoteq and good headphones, and just forget about speaker systems. At some point in the future you will probably live in a larger house, and you'll be able to get an acoustic as well. Until then headphones can do the job. My five cents.
Originally Posted by Pagan Min
Originally Posted by Jethro

Good for you. This is exactly process I used in buying my VPC-1. I had a lot of naysayers but followed my own judgement and experience in the end.


How does P-515's action really feel to you, if you compare it to VPC1? Heavier? Lighter? Hammer feel or springy?

When it comes to actions, this IS a very subjective area and this is where you have to use your best judgement. Most consider Kawai's upper echelon actions some of the best available. Roland also makes good actions with their PHA-50. You have to try the Yamaha action and see if it suits you. I ordered a used VPC-1 and tried the action out and immediately knew it would work fine. My choice for the VPC-1 was one made when I considered the complete package and that included to a great degree it's top notch integration with Pianoteq. It's not just one thing that I took into consideration. Another poster here just posted that he didn't like the playability of Pianoteq on his P515. That probably has a lot to do with velocity settings and maybe it's not the best piano for those who want to try Pianoteq. Just as with acoustic pianos, actions vary amongst different DP manufacturers and as long as it's a QUALITY action you should be able to adjust but I think it is wise to consider how close the action is to an actual acoustic's action if you plan to eventually move in that direction or go back and forth between acoustics and digitals like I have to.
Originally Posted by oivavoi

Haven't read the whole thread, but I think this comment nails it. There are many things that make DP's sound and feel slightly "fake", but I think the loudspeaker system and the limitation of the sampling is chief among them. Hence: My preference when playing on a DP is using pianoteq and very good headphones, making sure that they have enough dynamic headroom. Pianoteq manages to model the experience of playing a piano much better than the sample-based pianos. And good headphones are better than mediocre speaker systems.

Concerning the action on DP's: YMMV. I also tend to the perceive the action DP's al as being generally a bit to the light side. The action on the NV10 is the only action I have perceived as 100 percent "real" (haven't tried the NX1 yet). But at the same time I also feel that DP actions are within the "acceptable range", kind of. Some pianos have lighter action, some are heavier. As a pianist it's important to be able to adjust to different actions. Going from a somewhat light DP action to a somewhat heavier acoustic action is in a way just such a readjustment, which is fine once you get used to it.

I don't THINK the action on your future DP will hold you back. But I could be wrong. Again, YMMV.

My advise would be to go for the VPC-1, pianoteq and good headphones, and just forget about speaker systems. At some point in the future you will probably live in a larger house, and you'll be able to get an acoustic as well. Until then headphones can do the job. My five cents.


I understand. I wish I could try NV10, I imagine it as a pretty surreal experience when this super realistic keyboard makes digital sound (or imagine touching it when it's turned off...) But that will never happen unless I move to a somewhat more crowded city.

About the headphones: I agree, I also find headphones to deliver more satisfying sound at a lower price range, so I will definitely get headphones. However, I also want to play duets with my roommate (cello) to have a bit of fun, so some speakers will be needed eventually. Also, it just feels nice to have nothing on your head and hear the sound from around (but I tried ~$200 price range Sennheiser headphones (HD 558 I guess?) once and they feel like the sound is coming from outside, I liked them).
Originally Posted by Pagan Min
Originally Posted by oivavoi

Haven't read the whole thread, but I think this comment nails it. There are many things that make DP's sound and feel slightly "fake", but I think the loudspeaker system and the limitation of the sampling is chief among them. Hence: My preference when playing on a DP is using pianoteq and very good headphones, making sure that they have enough dynamic headroom. Pianoteq manages to model the experience of playing a piano much better than the sample-based pianos. And good headphones are better than mediocre speaker systems.

Concerning the action on DP's: YMMV. I also tend to the perceive the action DP's al as being generally a bit to the light side. The action on the NV10 is the only action I have perceived as 100 percent "real" (haven't tried the NX1 yet). But at the same time I also feel that DP actions are within the "acceptable range", kind of. Some pianos have lighter action, some are heavier. As a pianist it's important to be able to adjust to different actions. Going from a somewhat light DP action to a somewhat heavier acoustic action is in a way just such a readjustment, which is fine once you get used to it.

I don't THINK the action on your future DP will hold you back. But I could be wrong. Again, YMMV.

My advise would be to go for the VPC-1, pianoteq and good headphones, and just forget about speaker systems. At some point in the future you will probably live in a larger house, and you'll be able to get an acoustic as well. Until then headphones can do the job. My five cents.


I understand. I wish I could try NV10, I imagine it as a pretty surreal experience when this super realistic keyboard makes digital sound (or imagine touching it when it's turned off...) But that will never happen unless I move to a somewhat more crowded city.

About the headphones: I agree, I also find headphones to deliver more satisfying sound at a lower price range, so I will definitely get headphones. However, I also want to play duets with my roommate (cello) to have a bit of fun, so some speakers will be needed eventually. Also, it just feels nice to have nothing on your head and hear the sound from around (but I tried ~$200 price range Sennheiser headphones (HD 558 I guess?) once and they feel like the sound is coming from outside, I liked them).


I see! Yeah, then you'd need some speakers/monitors as well, I guess smile

Sennheiser makes really excellent stuff. I think the 598/599 (almost the same model) is probably the sweetspot for price/performance in headphones. Very good sound, and not too expensive, comparatively speaking. They also have high sensitivity, which makes it possible to drive them directly from most devices without a separate amp, and still get good dynamics.
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Jethro
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Jethro
Steinway just endorsed their Model B and D on that program.

From hands-on experience I can tell, that Pianoteq B does not sound nor play like the real Steinway Model B.

In fact my Yamaha P-515 is much closer to it.

Yep, that's where the VPC-1 shines. There is a closer integration with Pianoteq and a few other VST packages with the professional collaboration between their engineers. Kawai worked closely with Pianoteq engineers to optimize its playability with it's onboard touch presets. Does the P-515 have customizable velocity curve/ touch presets? That may explain why it does not play nice with Pianoteq.

The VPC1 doesn't have integrated amplification nor an integrated audio interface. And pedals without optical sensors. So a VPC1 is pretty much useless on its own. Yet it is as expensive as a P-515.

Of course, the P-515 has Touch presets and the default "Medium" behaves like a real grand playing the internal sample, no further customization needed.


Nope, doesn't have any of that "stuff". Compared to the VPC-1 the P515 and other "all in ones" are jacks of all trades but possibly masters of none. The VPC-1 doesn't have amplification. Heck it doesn't have sounds built it in and you pay quite a bit for it because the one thing it does do, it does better than arguably all others. It's a piano controller. No brains but the action is fantastic and it's integration with some the best VST packages most notably "Pianoteq" is second to none. It's up to you to decide how you want to implement it. You can spend as much as you want on the best amplification system. You can spend as much as you want on the brains which includes the computer laptop and whichever piano software you desire. You have full control and most importantly you are only paying for what you need. As such you can get the best of everything that you want while keeping down costs. In other words you are not buying features you are never going to use. I happened to marry my VPC1 with in many people's opinions the best piano software out there and one that the VPC-1 was specifically designed for and I think when most players reach a certain proficiency level on piano they will appreciate what a VPC-1 set-up has to offer.
Originally Posted by Jethro

Nope, doesn't have any of that "stuff". Compared to the VPC-1 the P515 and other "all in ones" are jacks of all trades but possibly masters of none. The VPC-1 doesn't have amplification. Heck it doesn't have sounds built it in and you pay quite a bit for it because the one thing it does do, it does better than arguably all others. It's a piano controller. No brains but the action is fantastic and it's integration with some the best VST packages most notably "Pianoteq" is second to none. It's up to you to decide how you want to implement it. You can spend as much as you want on the best amplification system. You can spend as much as you want on the brains which includes the computer laptop and whichever piano software you desire. You have full control and most importantly you are only paying for what you need. As such you can get the best of everything that you want while keeping down costs. In other words you are not buying features you are never going to use. I happened to marry my VPC1 with in many people's opinions the best piano software out there and one that the VPC-1 was specifically designed for and I think when most players reach a certain proficiency level on piano they will appreciate what a VPC-1 set-up has to offer.


Wow man, you sound SO excited about this I'm actually getting excited myself laugh you'd probably be a better salesman (at least for VPC1 specifically lol) than anyone in this city, I love it when people get genuinely excited for something they love...I will hit the checkout button on weekend once I check one more possibility smile I won't get everything at once, I will wait for the controller to arrive, hook it up with the trial version, if that works I will buy better headphones and upgrade to the full version. I hope everything works out well shocked
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Originally Posted by Jethro

Nope, doesn't have any of that "stuff". Compared to the VPC-1 the P515 and other "all in ones" are jacks of all trades but possibly masters of none. The VPC-1 doesn't have amplification. Heck it doesn't have sounds built it in and you pay quite a bit for it because the one thing it does do, it does better than arguably all others. It's a piano controller. No brains but the action is fantastic and it's integration with some the best VST packages most notably "Pianoteq" is second to none. It's up to you to decide how you want to implement it. You can spend as much as you want on the best amplification system. You can spend as much as you want on the brains which includes the computer laptop and whichever piano software you desire. You have full control and most importantly you are only paying for what you need. As such you can get the best of everything that you want while keeping down costs. In other words you are not buying features you are never going to use. I happened to marry my VPC1 with in many people's opinions the best piano software out there and one that the VPC-1 was specifically designed for and I think when most players reach a certain proficiency level on piano they will appreciate what a VPC-1 set-up has to offer.


Wow man, you sound SO excited about this I'm actually getting excited myself laugh you'd probably be a better salesman (at least for VPC1 specifically lol) than anyone in this city, I love it when people get genuinely excited for something they love...I will hit the checkout button on weekend once I check one more possibility smile I won't get everything at once, I will wait for the controller to arrive, hook it up with the trial version, if that works I will buy better headphones and upgrade to the full version. I hope everything works out well shocked

Sadly, I am about to have a Shigeru Kawai SK2 shipped to my home and I am writing about a frigging VPC-1. There's something wrong with this picture, but thanks for the comments. Yes you will like the VPC-1 and what you may not appreciate now if you are new the piano, you will appreciate later as your technique improves.

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Originally Posted by Jethro

Sadly, I am about to have a Shigeru Kawai SK2 shipped to my home and I am writing about a frigging VPC-1. There's something wrong with this picture, but thanks for the comments. Yes you will like the VPC-1 and what you may not appreciate now if you are new the piano, you will appreciate later as your technique improves.

Maybe it's because I have another piano that I need to get sold and I would rather not have 2 pianos in my home and it is stressing me out a little. So if someone would kindly buy this piano. https://www.pianomart.com/buy-a-piano/view?id=37313 and take it off my hands, I would greatly appreciate it! Yes this is a fantastic RX-2! Yes it is unbelievably gorgeous. It has a specifically golden tone for an RX-2 and it is a FAR FAR better choice than a NOVUS 10 or NU- whatever, whatever... What's wrong with you people!!! This is a gift! I am gift wrapping it for you folks. Take it!


Actually, I've been playing piano for 12 years. While I'm no concert pianist, I wouldn't exactly say I'm new to piano. I have an acoustic upright in Europe (which I could not, for obvious resons, ship to the US, plus it's not really worth it, possibly cracked soundboard, something loose about the pins, or bridge, never stays in tune for long) and just recently moved here and wanted to experience digital pianos (staying in tune is btw one of the perks I would value highly).
Originally Posted by Jethro
Nope, doesn't have any of that "stuff". Compared to the VPC-1 the P515 and other "all in ones" are jacks of all trades but possibly masters of none. The VPC-1 doesn't have amplification. Heck it doesn't have sounds built it in and you pay quite a bit for it because the one thing it does do, it does better than arguably all others.

That's a false dichtomy. The P-515 is actually great at everything it does including accompanying me when practicing guitar, but it's also a good piano controller, when I need one. It's a comprehensive package with lots of value for the price paid.

In the end it doesn't matter how well something integrates with Pianoteq, if I like neither the old Kawai action nor the sound Ptq produces, because I consider both the action and the sound of the Yamaha P-515 being much better. You are just so hyper-focused on your niche use case, so every problem someone brings to this forum looks like another example of it. You are unable to acknowledge, that different people have different needs.
Originally Posted by JoeT

That's a false dichtomy. The P-515 is actually great at everything it does including accompanying me when practicing guitar, but it's also a good piano controller, when I need one. It's a comprehensive package with lots of value for the price paid.

In the end it doesn't matter how well something integrates with Pianoteq, if I like neither the old Kawai action nor the sound Ptq produces, because I consider both the action and the sound of the Yamaha P-515 being much better. You are just so hyper-focused on your niche use case, so every problem someone brings to this forum looks like another example of it. You are unable to acknowledge, that different people have different needs.


I know that assessing instruments is a highly subjective matter, but a few points:

1) I liked VPC1 best from anything I tried, including several Yamaha P-series models (lower-tier, 45, 90, 115, 125). Not sure how 515 compares to those, but unless it's several levels above, I'm not sure it can compete with VPC1 in the feel of the action (again, keep in mind that assessing actions, apart from obvious attributes, is highly subjective)
2) I had access to VPC1 to try it in a home setting and see it's doable in my house
3) the only shop that might get a P-515 for me to demo went silent over 2 weeks ago. I sent them several follow up emails (along the lines "hey, any luck with that P-515 we were discussing earlier? Thank you"), only to be ignored. I even called to the shop only to be picked up by a different person asking me about my name, name of the salesman who I'd been communicating with and telling me that they'd follow up. They never did. I am literally willing to shove money down their throats. I have no clue how one runs a succesfull business with employees like that (are customers supposed to beg salesmen to show them the product?), but to me Kawai with its infrastructure in the US is a winner over Yamaha. Sometimes a purchase is about customer's experience...and they deterred a customer, that's for sure.

Sorry for a smaller rant.
I’ve owned a CA63 with mechanically the same action as VPC1. What they added in the VPC1 was three sensors but other than that it’s the same. I never managed to adapt to it. It was a huge relief to sell it for a MP6 with the plastic RH action that’s supposed to be lower grade. Well, not to me.

A forum member recently purchased a VPC1 and returned it a few days later frustrated by inability to tweak the touch response to the VST-s despite his best attempts. And swapped it for an ES8 with the “lesser” RH3 action.

Each to their own smile
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I’ve owned a CA63 with mechanically the same action as VPC1. What they added in the VPC1 was three sensors but other than that it’s the same.
One major difference between the two is the VPC Editor software. You can use it to adjust per key velocity. I found it very useful in eliminating all the uneven notes while playing with Pianoteq. I am not aware of any digital pianos that have this feature.

The VPC1 did take me quite a while to set up to my satisfaction, but I enjoyed the process. I agree, it's not for everyone.
Originally Posted by noobpianist90

One major difference between the two is the VPC Editor software. You can use it to adjust per key velocity. I found it very useful in eliminating all the uneven notes while playing with Pianoteq. I am not aware of any digital pianos that have this feature.

The VPC1 did take me quite a while to set up to my satisfaction, but I enjoyed the process. I agree, it's not for everyone.


That reminds me...are there any presets available to download, or even the same model can have differences one has to deal with on their own?
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
That reminds me...are there any presets available to download, or even the same model can have differences one has to deal with on their own?
I'm not sure if there are differences between units of the same model. I'm guessing there will be small differences.
What I did while setting it up was simply use the default settings and keep playing pieces and noting the small things that I wanted to change. I then made the tweaks at the end of my practice session. I didn't spend too much time fiddling with the settings in isolation. I eventually stopped fiddling with it as I grew more satisfied with it. BTW this includes both Pianoteq settings as well as the VPC Editor settings.
Given the question posed in the topic title: "What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos)" ... the VPC doesn't even belong here.
If it does, then the obvious answer to "what does it lack?" is "SOUND"!
Guessing that such silliness was not the OP's intent ... I have to say that the VPC is out of scope.
Whoa! Pretty strong words there, TS!
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
THAT RETAILER IS LYING THROUGH HIS TEETH.
I presume you were referring to the bit about the dealer's claim of buying at retail? If so, you're right. He's LTHT. He's FOS.
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Given the question posed in the topic title: "What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos)" ... the VPC doesn't even belong here.
If it does, then the obvious answer to "what does it lack?" is "SOUND"!
Guessing that such silliness was not the OP's intent ... I have to say that the VPC is out of scope.


Yeah it's actually funny. laugh laugh ^_^ But paired with a good software it might be fine, judging from the other posts...

Originally Posted by MacMacMac

I presume you were referring to the bit about the dealer's claim of buying at retail? If so, you're right. He's LTHT. He's FOS.


I googled "LTHT" and "FOS"....I guess you didn't mean "Leeds Teaching Hospitals"? FOS would be full of...feces. I guess.

BTW, when I asked him about models he doesn't have, he went online, looked up Kawai website and gave me exactly their official price + shipping. I'm not kidding, I suspect incompetence. He even told me that this way I would not "support the local business", because he would order it online. What is the point? I can look it up on the internet at home. There are online stores that don't charge for shipping. Literally anything is better than kawaius.
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte

1) I liked VPC1 best from anything I tried, including several Yamaha P-series models (lower-tier, 45, 90, 115, 125). Not sure how 515 compares to those, but unless it's several levels above, I'm not sure it can compete with VPC1 in the feel of the action (again, keep in mind that assessing actions, apart from obvious attributes, is highly subjective)

Yamahas $500 action (GHS) doesn't compare to it all. The wooden action of the P-515 is that of a $3,500 Clavinova.

That's the thing though: You visited one Kawai dealer and now think, you have comprehensive overview over (digital) pianos. Your misconceptions in the OP speak volumes.

Quote
3) the only shop that might get a P-515 for me to demo went silent over 2 weeks ago. I sent them several follow up emails (along the lines "hey, any luck with that P-515 we were discussing earlier? Thank you"), only to be ignored.

You should demo Clavinova, Avant Grand, Concert Artist, Novus and Roland's offerings above 2,000 bucks. This gives you a good impression of what to look for in a digital piano. If a dealer doesn't carry these models, go to another one. Bring good headphones as well.

Then you check the following models in your price range for yourself:

Kawai ES8
Roland FP-90
Yamaha P-515

Talk in a forum full of computer nerds won't lead you anywhere. wink
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I’ve owned a CA63 with mechanically the same action as VPC1. What they added in the VPC1 was three sensors but other than that it’s the same. I never managed to adapt to it. It was a huge relief to sell it for a MP6 with the plastic RH action that’s supposed to be lower grade. Well, not to me.

A forum member recently purchased a VPC1 and returned it a few days later frustrated by inability to tweak the touch response to the VST-s despite his best attempts. And swapped it for an ES8 with the “lesser” RH3 action.

After the Steinway Model B I demoed an ES7 and I didn't like its RH2 action at all. Sound was great though, as to be expected from Kawai.
Hi Chopin Acolite,

For what it’s worth, it’s really important that you don’t base your buying decision solely on the opinion of others. This is tantamount to choosing by committee. Stick with your own experience in the first instance and whatever you buy make sure you can return it if it’s not what you want. Find out how to return it and exactly how much it will cost to return. That way there will be no nasty surprises. I do wish you the best in your search and I must say this has been a very interesting and enjoyable thread to read through. All the best,

Paul
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I’ve owned a CA63 with mechanically the same action as VPC1. What they added in the VPC1 was three sensors but other than that it’s the same. I never managed to adapt to it. It was a huge relief to sell it for a MP6 with the plastic RH action that’s supposed to be lower grade. Well, not to me.

A forum member recently purchased a VPC1 and returned it a few days later frustrated by inability to tweak the touch response to the VST-s despite his best attempts. And swapped it for an ES8 with the “lesser” RH3 action.

After the Steinway Model B I demoed an ES7 and I didn't like its RH2 action at all. Sound was great though, as to be expected from Kawai.


After playing hard-bottoming Yamaha actions, RH will feel too mushy, that's a fact. I also prefer the Yamaha way much more now.
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
I googled "LTHT" and "FOS"....I guess you didn't mean "Leeds Teaching Hospitals"?

He's just echoing my "lying through his teeth" = LTHT.

Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
BTW, when I asked him about models he doesn't have, he went online, looked up Kawai website and gave me exactly their official price + shipping. I'm not kidding, I suspect incompetence.

You are being too kind (re: "incompetence"). I suspect something more sinister which is why the LTHT & FOS. My Yamaha dealer, when I bought my N1X consulted the Yamaha website too. It's a convenient place to consult. That didn't mean that dealers don't get a percentage off retail price. They do. Because even to think they don't would presume not incompetence of your dealer, but incompetence of Yamaha's (sales) channel organization.
About the LTHT ... yes.
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
He's just echoing my "lying through his teeth" = LTHT.

And yes, "incompetence" is too kind.
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
You are being too kind (re: "incompetence"). I suspect something more sinister ...
But there is sometimes a fine line between incompetence and dishonesty. They sometimes look the same outwardly.
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Originally Posted by JoeT

That's a false dichtomy. The P-515 is actually great at everything it does including accompanying me when practicing guitar, but it's also a good piano controller, when I need one. It's a comprehensive package with lots of value for the price paid.

In the end it doesn't matter how well something integrates with Pianoteq, if I like neither the old Kawai action nor the sound Ptq produces, because I consider both the action and the sound of the Yamaha P-515 being much better. You are just so hyper-focused on your niche use case, so every problem someone brings to this forum looks like another example of it. You are unable to acknowledge, that different people have different needs.


I know that assessing instruments is a highly subjective matter, but a few points:

1) I liked VPC1 best from anything I tried, including several Yamaha P-series models (lower-tier, 45, 90, 115, 125). Not sure how 515 compares to those, but unless it's several levels above, I'm not sure it can compete with VPC1 in the feel of the action (again, keep in mind that assessing actions, apart from obvious attributes, is highly subjective)
2) I had access to VPC1 to try it in a home setting and see it's doable in my house
3) the only shop that might get a P-515 for me to demo went silent over 2 weeks ago. I sent them several follow up emails (along the lines "hey, any luck with that P-515 we were discussing earlier? Thank you"), only to be ignored. I even called to the shop only to be picked up by a different person asking me about my name, name of the salesman who I'd been communicating with and telling me that they'd follow up. They never did. I am literally willing to shove money down their throats. I have no clue how one runs a succesfull business with employees like that (are customers supposed to beg salesmen to show them the product?), but to me Kawai with its infrastructure in the US is a winner over Yamaha. Sometimes a purchase is about customer's experience...and they deterred a customer, that's for sure.

Sorry for a smaller rant.

Heh, you are going to receive a lot of competing opinions on this matter between sampled sounds and modeled sounds. VPC-1 controller versus all in ones. In the end it's your decision. I just gave you my honest opinion on the matter and I hope it helped you towards making your decision. You have 12 years experience as a pianist already under your belt at the very least I would say give the VPC-1 + Pianoteq a try and in an ideal situation you are doing a direct A/B comparison between VPC-1 + Pianoteq (set to the pianoteq preset) versus a good digital piano with sampled sounds and an acoustic as well. If you had no experience with an acoustic piano I could understand how many would say they preferred a lighter action because it would seem that that action would be "easier" on the hands to play and that other digital pianos sound better. And I would not argue with them I would probably say the same thing. There are a number of VSTs that "sound" better than Pianoteq. There are a number of keyboards that have a lighter more "pleasant" action than the VPC-1. But what matters is when you start connecting the notes and actually start making music. Like I said, I would give this set-up time and don't judge it based on your first impressions. The key to this set-up was it's integration with Pianoteq. With other software packages I might not be recommending this set-up as much and yes I would say there are better all in one DP's out there, but its tight integration with Pianoteq was the deal breaker for me personally. It's a wonderful set-up for around $2000. Like I said- not perfect but it's in my opinion one of the best set-ups at that price range if your goal is to become a better pianist.
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Originally Posted by oivavoi

Haven't read the whole thread, but I think this comment nails it. There are many things that make DP's sound and feel slightly "fake", but I think the loudspeaker system and the limitation of the sampling is chief among them. Hence: My preference when playing on a DP is using pianoteq and very good headphones, making sure that they have enough dynamic headroom. Pianoteq manages to model the experience of playing a piano much better than the sample-based pianos. And good headphones are better than mediocre speaker systems.

Concerning the action on DP's: YMMV. I also tend to the perceive the action DP's al as being generally a bit to the light side. The action on the NV10 is the only action I have perceived as 100 percent "real" (haven't tried the NX1 yet). But at the same time I also feel that DP actions are within the "acceptable range", kind of. Some pianos have lighter action, some are heavier. As a pianist it's important to be able to adjust to different actions. Going from a somewhat light DP action to a somewhat heavier acoustic action is in a way just such a readjustment, which is fine once you get used to it.

I don't THINK the action on your future DP will hold you back. But I could be wrong. Again, YMMV.

My advise would be to go for the VPC-1, pianoteq and good headphones, and just forget about speaker systems. At some point in the future you will probably live in a larger house, and you'll be able to get an acoustic as well. Until then headphones can do the job. My five cents.


I understand. I wish I could try NV10, I imagine it as a pretty surreal experience when this super realistic keyboard makes digital sound (or imagine touching it when it's turned off...) But that will never happen unless I move to a somewhat more crowded city.

About the headphones: I agree, I also find headphones to deliver more satisfying sound at a lower price range, so I will definitely get headphones. However, I also want to play duets with my roommate (cello) to have a bit of fun, so some speakers will be needed eventually. Also, it just feels nice to have nothing on your head and hear the sound from around (but I tried ~$200 price range Sennheiser headphones (HD 558 I guess?) once and they feel like the sound is coming from outside, I liked them).

Try the AKG K240. About 70 bucks. Best secret in the professional studio world and work great with digital pianos it's this instruments frequency range. https://medium.com/@Xander51/akg-k240-studio-headphones-review-a-quirky-analytical-studio-classic-e55ef1af45b1
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
and they feel like the sound is coming from outside, I liked them).

If you really want to feel as if the sound is coming from outside, try this relatively inexpensive device. It took many years to develop.
I've never seen this guys podcasts before but he's obviously an accomplished professional pianist and I think it is important you listen to what he says when it comes to Pianoteq because the angst that he has experienced over digital pianos was the same one I have had over the years. He explains the advantages of Pianoteq better than anyone else out there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTbXnbfymdc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulS-N6PSRuc

Like him, I took all digital pianos as nothing more than toys until I tried one with Pianoteq.

Now you combine this software with digital controller that designed specifically for it sporting one of the best actions out there. I think you have a winner eh?
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
and they feel like the sound is coming from outside, I liked them).

If you really want to feel as if the sound is coming from outside, try this relatively inexpensive device. It took many years to develop.


Do they make a model for 1/4” headphone jacks or does the audio have to go through the iPhone with an app? How would I use this with my Yamaha P-515?
Originally Posted by Jethro
Like him, I took all digital pianos as nothing more than toys until I tried one with Pianoteq.

Now you combine this software with digital controller that designed specifically for it sporting one of the best actions out there. I think you have a winner eh?

No. IMO smile
I reckon Cyber's looking to earn a bit o' cash from Pteq . . .by saying nothing!

I have to say, however, going through my old YT vids, that the DGX650 took some beating. I did my best stuff on that, without PT. The reverb more than made up for what it lacked.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Jethro
Like him, I took all digital pianos as nothing more than toys until I tried one with Pianoteq.

Now you combine this software with digital controller that designed specifically for it sporting one of the best actions out there. I think you have a winner eh?

No. IMO smile

Why must you be difficult? smile

Explaining Pianoteq to some people is like explaining sex to a 10 year old. You may not like it now, but once you (or in this case your piano skills) mature you are going to like it. You just have to trust me and professionals like Hugh.
Originally Posted by Jethro
I think it is important you listen to what he says when it comes to Pianoteq because the angst that he has experienced over digital pianos was the same one I have had over the years.

I rather use my free time to practice piano using my superior digital instrument instead of listening to advertisements.

Originally Posted by Jethro
Explaining Pianoteq to some people is like explaining sex to a 10 year old. You may not like it now, but once you (or in this case your piano skills) mature you are going to like it.

Not only are you condescending. You just obliterated all your previous arguments.
Originally Posted by JoeT

Yamahas $500 action (GHS) doesn't compare to it all. The wooden action of the P-515 is that of a $3,500 Clavinova.

That's the thing though: You visited one Kawai dealer and now think, you have comprehensive overview over (digital) pianos. Your misconceptions in the OP speak volumes.


Whoah. Sorry for my incompetence. Didn't mean to offend such a high-tier, expensive, action (everybody knows, that expensive = good). I found someone discussing here on the forum GrandTouch action (newer than NWX) and they mentioned it is a folding action...so NWX is, presumably, also a folding, plastic action. Yes, keys are wooden. But also, this thread (there are pictures of Kawai's RM3 Grand II, the wood goes all the way to the back - less money for more wood).

Originally Posted by JoeT

You should demo Clavinova, Avant Grand, Concert Artist, Novus and Roland's offerings above 2,000 bucks. This gives you a good impression of what to look for in a digital piano. If a dealer doesn't carry these models, go to another one. Bring good headphones as well.

Then you check the following models in your price range for yourself:

Kawai ES8
Roland FP-90
Yamaha P-515

Talk in a forum full of computer nerds won't lead you anywhere. wink


My city barely has entry-level Yamaha and one small Kawai dealer offers discontinued models...I don't see how I can possibly demo these. By the way, I demo'd Kawai CP2 (is $6,000 and $10,000 over $2,000 enough?) and did not like the Grand Feel action. For me, it felt worse than RM3 Grand II.

Closest shop that is not recovering from hurricanes and might have higher-end Kawais is 250 miles away. I don't have a car. Every buck spent on a bus and hotel (no way I can do that in one day) is cutting off my budget.

With Yamaha it's tricky, when I call (nation-wide shop that carries them) I get the answer "oh we have that in stock, you should check out the branch", only to find out that it isn't in the shop.

I think I tried that particular model of Roland at my local store and did not like the action, but I bumped into Roland Juno DS88 and its action was pretty realistic, but a bit too light. However, no speakers. So if VPC has a better action and also no speakers, why not.

Note that I tried some models myself and without a car, hunting for a DP in a city like this is very hard, so I did what I could and from that sample, VPC seems to be the best option.

By the way, I read many posts about how a certain action "feels like the real deal", best ever etc., for example Grand Feel, but when I try it myself...not really. It's so subjective.

Originally Posted by pmh
Hi Chopin Acolite,

For what it’s worth, it’s really important that you don’t base your buying decision solely on the opinion of others. This is tantamount to choosing by committee. Stick with your own experience in the first instance and whatever you buy make sure you can return it if it’s not what you want. Find out how to return it and exactly how much it will cost to return. That way there will be no nasty surprises. I do wish you the best in your search and I must say this has been a very interesting and enjoyable thread to read through. All the best,

Paul


Hi Paul, thank you. Since I tried VPC myself and considered that as a solid option in the first place, it is not based solely on the opinion of others.

Originally Posted by Jethro

Try the AKG K240. About 70 bucks. Best secret in the professional studio world and work great with digital pianos it's this instruments frequency range. https://medium.com/@Xander51/akg-k240-studio-headphones-review-a-quirky-analytical-studio-classic-e55ef1af45b1


Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

If you really want to feel as if the sound is coming from outside, try this relatively inexpensive device. It took many years to develop.


Thank you for the tips smile
Originally Posted by Jethro
Explaining Pianoteq to some people is like explaining sex to a 10 year old. You may not like it now, but once you (or in this case your piano skills) mature you are going to like it. You just have to trust me and professionals like Hugh.

That's a wrong analogy. You're not explaining sex. You're explaining some kind of sex fetishism to a 10 year old. He may or may not like it when he matures.
Originally Posted by Jethro
Explaining Pianoteq to some people is like explaining sex to a 10 year old. You may not like it now, but once you (or in this case your piano skills) mature you are going to like it. You just have to trust me and professionals like Hugh.


This is probably the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen on PW.
Okay, let's not let it slide to a some kind of a flame war here.

I don't like how some people communicate, either, but after all, this is internet. Some of you would not dare to say some things to others in face. Let's be honest, everyone has a soft spot for something, like that Yamaha $3500 action, or Pianoteq...it's okay. I take everyone's opinion with a grain of salt, i.e. certainly not literally.

I am also grateful for all your opinions, it matters to me smile
In a world where some hear "Yanni", whilst others hear "Laurel", there will obviously never be consensus about the quality of sound from any instrument. Some like this, some like the other, and the great thing about it all is that most probably, for each and everone of us, there will be some instrument whose sound we like better than that of the other instruments. And we can then go and buy the sound we like the best. That's really marvellous.
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
My city barely has entry-level Yamaha and one small Kawai dealer offers discontinued models...I don't see how I can possibly demo these.

Yeah, my city doesn't have digitals on display either. So I drove 250 km to get a proper impression of almost all models of all vendors on sale, including Avant Grand and Novus. Was fully worth it. There I tried the NWX action and was sold on it. It's superior to anything else offered in $1,500 slab pianos.
Originally Posted by JoeT

Yeah, my city doesn't have digitals on display either. So I drove 250 km to get a proper impression of almost all models of all vendors on sale, including Avant Grand and Novus. Was fully worth it. There I tried the NWX action and was sold on it. It's superior to anything else offered in $1,500 slab pianos.


I don't have a car. As I said, every buck that goes into buses, planes, hotels etc. is less money towards the piano itself.
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte

I don't have a car. As I said, every buck that goes into buses, planes, hotels etc. is less money towards the piano itself.

I don't own a car either. Of course, the money spent on the trip added to the total cost of the piano. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.
Originally Posted by LarryK
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
and they feel like the sound is coming from outside, I liked them).

If you really want to feel as if the sound is coming from outside, try this relatively inexpensive device. It took many years to develop.


Do they make a model for 1/4” headphone jacks or does the audio have to go through the iPhone with an app? How would I use this with my Yamaha P-515?

iPhone - I can't imagine how one could use it with an iPhone when there is an audio external source (outside the phone). I just use it with a PC since I am using one other audio post-processing plug-in on top of this. There are some videos on the site of how to do the one-time setup. It involves taking photos of ones ears (as ears, literally, shape the sounds we hear).
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
I bumped into Roland Juno DS88 and its action was pretty realistic, but a bit too light. However, no speakers. So if VPC has a better action and also no speakers, why not.

I guess the "why not" might be the $850 price difference, which could more than pay for the speakers and software you want.

Though if you come across a Roland FP50, I believe that has the DS88 action, but with speakers.
Nope. You first have to buy software that produces piano sounds.
Originally Posted by Jethro
Now you combine this software with digital controller that designed specifically for it sporting one of the best actions out there. I think you have a winner eh?
Pianoteq fails that test. smile
Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
In a world where some hear "Yanni", whilst others hear "Laurel", there will obviously never be consensus about the quality of sound from any instrument. Some like this, some like the other, and the great thing about it all is that most probably, for each and everone of us, there will be some instrument whose sound we like better than that of the other instruments. And we can then go and buy the sound we like the best. That's really marvellous.

I 100% agree with what you say! Especially in the first sentence! thumb

(For those who feel lost, this was discussed in this earlier thread. smile )
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Nope. You first have to buy software that produces piano sounds.
Originally Posted by Jethro
Now you combine this software with digital controller that designed specifically for it sporting one of the best actions out there. I think you have a winner eh?
Pianoteq fails that test. smile

Yes, the VPC-1 requires software to run, but I think the OP knows that and accepts that.
Originally Posted by Jethro
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Nope. You first have to buy software that produces piano sounds.
Originally Posted by Jethro
Now you combine this software with digital controller that designed specifically for it sporting one of the best actions out there. I think you have a winner eh?
Pianoteq fails that test. smile

Yes, the VPC-1 requires software to run, but I think the OP knows that and accepts that.

I may be wrong, but I think MacMacMac is simply insinuating that the sounds made by Pianoteq are not "piano sounds" (well, with the exception of Steinway D (Classical), Steingraeber (E-272), and the Ant Petrof (Prelude) virtual instruments wink ).
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Okay, let's not let it slide to a some kind of a flame war here.

I don't like how some people communicate, either, but after all, this is internet. Some of you would not dare to say some things to others in face. Let's be honest, everyone has a soft spot for something, like that Yamaha $3500 action, or Pianoteq...it's okay. I take everyone's opinion with a grain of salt, i.e. certainly not literally.

I am also grateful for all your opinions, it matters to me smile


Remember I warned about that angry mob.... smile

Everyone should try to respect everyone's opinions and not take this too seriously. If you like this piano or that piano set-up good for you. Let us know what you like about it and share your opinion. We will all respect your opinion, no need to attack other posters.

Some of what I personally write is just written in jest like that recent analogy, no harm intended, just trying to put a little humor in the debate so don't have a cow.

I'm hoping I gave you sound advice Chopin Acolyte, good luck with your search I think you are on the right track.
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by Jethro
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Nope. You first have to buy software that produces piano sounds.
Originally Posted by Jethro
Now you combine this software with digital controller that designed specifically for it sporting one of the best actions out there. I think you have a winner eh?
Pianoteq fails that test. smile

Yes, the VPC-1 requires software to run, but I think the OP knows that and accepts that.

I may be wrong, but I think MacMacMac is simply insinuating that the sounds made by Pianoteq are not "piano sounds" (well, with the exception of Steinway D (Classical), Steingraeber (E-272), and the Ant Petrof (Prelude) virtual instruments wink ).

Last time I checked under the hood all I saw were 1's and 0's whether it be modeled sounds or mic'd samples. How do we define "real" in the digital world. They are all recreations. Some like Pianoteq just do it better than others.
Okay, here's what I did, being the crazy me...

I ordered Yamaha P-515 from <a nation-wide business with a branch in my city, with the name similar to...uh... centrum for guitars>.

Since it's a slab and probably in a warehouse near my city, the shipping is free.

They have free returns so if I don't like it, I can take it back in the shop in original packaging. I will know this within a couple of hours messing around with it.

Whether I like it or not, I will post the result here. Especially for JoeT who seemed very insistent on it.
No exceptions.
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I think MacMacMac is insinuating that the sounds made by Pianoteq are not "piano sounds" with the exception of Steinway D (Classical), Steingraeber (E-272), and the Ant Petrof (Prelude) virtual instruments..
Gotta love the hate speech. Good job Jethro et al are here to provide the love speech...
Got to agree the schoolkid/sex explain analogy--with or without the Bulgarian "corrections"--was ill-advised though. Enthusiasm inspired, but rash.
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Okay, here's what I did, being the crazy me...

I ordered Yamaha P-515 from <a nation-wide business with a branch in my city, with the name similar to...uh... centrum for guitars>.

Since it's a slab and probably in a warehouse near my city, the shipping is free.

They have free returns so if I don't like it, I can take it back in the shop in original packaging. I will know this within a couple of hours messing around with it.

Whether I like it or not, I will post the result here. Especially for JoeT who seemed very insistent on it.

Good for you man! Give it a go!
Absolutely, really look forward to your views on the Yammy P-151.

Paul
Originally Posted by Groove On
Yes your experience is normal. Digital pianos are not acoustic pianos. Get your hands on as many DPs as you can until you find one that is good enough for what you want to do. If none of them can pass your standards, stick with an acoustic piano.
[...]


My experience as well. I've gotten used to telling myself when trying out a DP if a model is close enough to an acoustic piano that I like before considering other aspects, e.g. price, weight, etc.
Originally Posted by JoeT
. . .You should demo Clavinova, Avant Grand, Concert Artist, Novus and Roland's offerings above 2,000 bucks. This gives you a good impression of what to look for in a digital piano. If a dealer doesn't carry these models, go to another one. Bring good headphones as well.

Then you check the following models in your price range for yourself:

Kawai ES8
Roland FP-90
Yamaha P-515

Talk in a forum full of computer nerds won't lead you anywhere. wink


Sensible advice. It won't help you compare a VPC1 + Pianoteq to any of the stand-alone DP's, though.

I like Pianoteq, but I'm no "golden ears" about piano tone or touch. The FP-90 I tried, with boosted string resonance, felt and sounded pretty good to me.
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte

Whether I like it or not, I will post the result here. Especially for JoeT who seemed very insistent on it.

I was insistent on you trying out a lot stuff, not ordering what I prefer. Because your preferences might be entirely different.

Just one note: The pedal bundled with the P-515 is an on/off switch. If you didn't order the stand and three-pedal option with it, you should get the continuous damper pedal.
Originally Posted by JoeT

I was insistent on you trying out a lot stuff, not ordering what I prefer. Because your preferences might be entirely different.

Just one note: The pedal bundled with the P-515 is an on/off switch. If you didn't order the stand and three-pedal option with it, you should get the continuous damper pedal.


Nope, I ordered just the slab, in case I don't like it and need to return it. I will test out only the action and sound itself (including resonance, but without the pedal). If I like it I will order a stand and a triple pedal unit.
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
No exceptions.
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I think MacMacMac is insinuating that the sounds made by Pianoteq are not "piano sounds" with the exception of Steinway D (Classical), Steingraeber (E-272), and the Ant Petrof (Prelude) virtual instruments..


Well, I'll just say that your words here make it seem like these are more pianos than my words on my old FP30. wink

Originally Posted by pianophil
7 - Pianoteq - Steinway D (Classical)
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
7 - Not too bad, but not as good as 5.
8 - Pianoteq - Steingraeber (E-272)
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
8 - Sounds good, but it lacks stereo spread.
10 - Pianoteq - Ant Petrof (Prelude)
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
10 - Refreshing after hearing those veiled, muffled pianos. But the sound placement moves around oddly.
Today I practiced on the Steinway grand again and I think I know why it handles like a truck.

We know that the main mechanism that propagates pianist's signal (pressing the key) to the hammer is seesaw, i.e. a long piece of wood on a balance pin. Now I looked inside and I guess since it's a grand piano with long strings and we want to produce big sound, also the hammer must be bigger (heavier).

However, if that's the case, then the other end (key) needs to be counter-balanced, otherwise we would need too much force to even statically hold the key down. Indeed, when I looked from the side at some keys, the have holes in the wood and I suspect there might be something heavier than wood inside to provide about 50g of total force needed to statically press the key down. But that's not the end of the story. I distinguish between "static force" (take a stack of coins and start placing them on a key, one by one. Stop when the key starts to go down and weigh the coins needed for the key to go down) and "dynamic force". The second concept is related to the original weight of the whole mechanism that, in the end, moves the hammer.

Imagine this: take a seesaw and place 10 pounds on each side. Now place 1 more pound on one of the sides. How much force does it take to push the seesaw down on the other side? 1 pound. Now change the original 10 pounds to 100 pounds. The required force to push it down is still 1 pound, however, the overall speed at which you push it down is much slower, due to the mass you have to accelerate (a = F/m, bigger m means bigger F required to produce the same acceleration a). This is what I call dynamic force.

Now back to the piano: let's say we want to produce mf dynamic on a certain key. The dynamic is produced at a certain velocity just when the key passes some specific point on its way down. The velocity is integral of acceleration, and let's assume the acceleration is constant (force is constant and for the sake of simplicity, observed mass of the key does not change on the way down, that is, until we get to the escapement). Therefore a = F/m and v = a*t, where t is the time since we started pressing the key. The amount we moved the key down at time t is d = (1/2) a*t^2 and let's say the point at which hammer strikes the string is d0, therefore the time it took us to get there is t = sqrt(2d0/a). This gives us the velocity v = sqrt (2 d0 a) = sqrt(2*d0*F/m). Now we see that if the whole seesaw has more mass on its ends, it takes more force to get to the desired velocity.

What I'm not quite sure about is this: if I increase mass M of the hammer, and strike the string with the same velocity v0, wouldn't that produce more sound? Therefore it seems like two opposing phenomena: increasing mass requires more force to accelerate the hammer, but at the same time, less velocity is needed to produce the same volume...I might be wrong here and it all depends only on velocity of the hammer, no matter its mass, but then...why did we have to put heavier hammers in a bigger piano in the first place?

I'm sure there are many more details to this, e.g. the observed mass of the key changes on the way down (it certainly does at the escapement), the mass of the action on the other side of the key depends on the construction and hammer contributes only partially, there might be complicated curve of loudness of the tone vs velocity and mass that stroke the string, which needs to be accounted for, so this whole thing might be difficult to model theoretically and the corresponding integrals might not be expressible in closed form...

But if the main factor indeed is hammer weight (and corresponding counterweight in keys so that the overall static force is about 50g to push down a key), can digital pianos be modified so that more mass is added both to hammers and keys so it feels like a truck, too? ^_^
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
... the other end (key) needs to be counter-balanced ...

Traditionally, the weight used to counter-balance the key is called the "Pianist". Any decently designed and maintained piano needs one of these "Pianists" to operate properly. wink
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
... can digital pianos be modified so that more mass is added both to hammers and keys so it feels like a truck, too? ^_^

You can add weight and also adjust the software to make it feel "heavier".

But if you do that, make sure the "Auto-Adjust" setting on your "Pianist" is ON or it will sound funny. You can find Auto-Adjust in Settings under Technique > Touch. If your "Pianist" is still having problems, check if your "Pianist" can be upgraded, usually an In-App purchase.

grin (yes it's one of those silly days ...)



... and just a touch more sarcasm to bring it back on topic .. What DPs really lack compared to Acoustics is a good "Pianist" laugh
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte


But if the main factor indeed is hammer weight (and corresponding counterweight in keys so that the overall static force is about 50g to push down a key), can digital pianos be modified so that more mass is added both to hammers and keys so it feels like a truck, too? ^_^


I'm planning to do this. I don't know which digital to do it with. Either my Roland FP-90 or Kawai MP10. I think the Roland would be perfect if it had more weight in the bass. I want to make the hammers heavier, and then add counterweights to offset this. A concert grand can be like pushing two sumo wrestlers on a seesaw as opposed to two little girls -well maybe that's an exaggeration. This is increased dynamic touch weight, though they have the same static touch weight.

It requires very little mass at the hammer to increase weight at the key, as the leverage is almost 5:1. i.e. the hammer travels roughly 45mm for around 9.5 mm of key travel. That's why you have lead in the keys to counteract the weight of the hammers, which aren't really heavy.
Originally Posted by Groove On
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
... the other end (key) needs to be counter-balanced ...

Traditionally, the weight used to counter-balance the key is called the "Pianist". Any decently designed and maintained piano needs one of these "Pianists" to operate properly. wink


Uh...so, for example, this image is fabricated? https://hartzlerpianos.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/IMG_0238.jpg because I can clearly see lead inside the keys. I'm sure it's for the balance.
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Uh...so, for example, this image is fabricated? https://hartzlerpianos.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/IMG_0238.jpg because I can clearly see lead inside the keys. I'm sure it's for the balance.

I was "trying to be funny" and obviously failed. The bigger point is that, yes you can add weights to make the keys heavier but it's more about controlling the weight of your back/arms and hands - not so much about whether the keys are weighted, super-weighted or non-weighted.

To use your example of a see-saw with 100 pound weights. It's the lever you use to push the see-saw that's important, not the weight of the see-saw. A baseball bat as a lever won't move those 100 pound weights, but a heavy girder will push the see-saw down very easily. In the case of playing the piano, our bodies are like heavy girders pushing the see-saw down. We have more than enough body weight to move the keys - it's more about controlling the weight to get a pleasing result.
OK -- you understand the difference between "downweight" (how much force is needed to start the key moving) and "inertia" (the resistance the key has when you try to increase its velocity). That's important, and often ignored here.

Quote
. . . What I'm not quite sure about is this: if I increase mass M of the hammer, and strike the string with the same velocity v0, wouldn't that produce more sound? Therefore it seems like two opposing phenomena: increasing mass requires more force to accelerate the hammer, but at the same time, less velocity is needed to produce the same volume...I might be wrong here and it all depends only on velocity of the hammer, no matter its mass, but then...why did we have to put heavier hammers in a bigger piano in the first place?


To get more sound, you must increase the amount of _energy_ that the hammer transfers to the string.

Let's say (for simplification) that the hammer transfers _all_ of its kinetic energy to the string. The amount of energy available:

. . . (mass of hammer) * (velocity of hammer)**2 (sorry -- I can't find a "superscript" here, to write a proper "squared" sign)

So either the hammer must move faster, or it must be made heavier.

. . . Either way, the pianist must work harder.

There's no way the hammer can deliver more energy than the player puts into it!

Now, if you can increase the _efficiency_ of the hammer-to-string energy transfer, the pianist gets to play louder without using more energy in his fingers. How might you do that?

. . . larger soundboard

. . . harder hammer (but that changes tone quality, and is undesirable, and doesn't necessarily increase efficiency).

A larger soundboard (e.g. a grand, instead of an upright or console) will have longer strings to match its size.

My guess (you might post a question in the "Techs and Tuners" forum) is that, to transfer energy _efficiently_ to a heavier string (heavier, because it's longer), you must use a heavier hammer.

. . . but I don't know that for sure.

The appearance of carbon-fiber-containing actions (in acoustic grands) gives a hint that this "pianist-energy-to-string-energy efficiency" really matters. The less energy that you waste, accelerating the parts of the action _except_ the hammer, the easier the piano will be to play. So people will pay big bucks to shave some grams (and gain some rigidity = less energy loss) in the bits and pieces. Ideally, you want _all_ the mass (and inertia) to be in the hammer, and nothing in the keys or other bits.

None of this will really help you, when you sit down to evaluate an action. It either feels good to you, or it doesn't. You can fiddle some with "touch" settings, velocity curves, dynamic range (in some virtual pianos -- I don't know if that's filtered-down to normal DP's). But ultimately, you close your eyes and ask:

. . . "Could I be playing an acoustic piano, now -- or is this obviously a simulation ?"
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
But if the main factor indeed is hammer weight (and corresponding counterweight in keys so that the overall static force is about 50g to push down a key), can digital pianos be modified so that more mass is added both to hammers and keys so it feels like a truck, too? ^_^

Don't worry. The action of the Yamaha piano you just ordered is considered "heavy" by most people. Unlike Kawai actions the static weight is pretty high, which is typical for Yamaha actions, while the dynamic weight is the same as for every digital piano.

So you can look forward to your "truck". laugh
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
But if the main factor indeed is hammer weight (and corresponding counterweight in keys so that the overall static force is about 50g to push down a key), can digital pianos be modified so that more mass is added both to hammers and keys so it feels like a truck, too? ^_^

Don't worry. The action of the Yamaha piano you just ordered is considered "heavy" by most people. Unlike Kawai actions the static weight is pretty high, which is typical for Yamaha actions, while the dynamic weight is the same as for every digital piano.

So you can look forward to your "truck". laugh


Lol. I love truck-ey pianos, as I'm used to them, it seems like I can control even-ness of phrasing and dynamics better. But I'm sure if was used more to light actions I would be more comfortable with them. I admire pianists who have so much experience that they can switch between very different actions and don't have any problems. It's almost like giving someone with a 9-5 office job suddenly re-stocking duties, lifting heavy boxes...not a true analogy, since piano is not supposed to be a "labour", but some amount of force is required (and that amount depends on the heaviness of the action), one cannot really cheat physics. (just my opinion, don't kill me. also, switching from a heavy action to a lighter but "real" (acoustic, upright perhaps) action seems like fun initially, everything is super easy and quick, but after some time, switching back to a heavy action feels laborious)
Well I'm off to play on a concert grade Yamaha grand piano for the first time in my life. I have a Casio AP-470 and I suspect there will be a world of difference in the actions.

All this discussion I have been following will be made real to some small extent by being able to do a physical comparison.
Originally Posted by KevinM
Well I'm off to play on a concert grade Yamaha grand piano for the first time in my life. I have a Casio AP-470 and I suspect there will be a world of difference in the actions.

All this discussion I have been following will be made real to some small extent by being able to do a physical comparison.

Sample of one. Interesting but that’s all, the comparison may have no value in terms of a generalisation. But interesting, for you at least, and I will be curious about your feedback.
Originally Posted by KevinM
Well I'm off to play on a concert grade Yamaha grand piano for the first time in my life. I have a Casio AP-470 and I suspect there will be a world of difference in the actions.

All this discussion I have been following will be made real to some small extent by being able to do a physical comparison.



Definitely leave a feedback after you try it! And good luck (if it's for your recital) smile
In comparing actions, besides the "downweight," you also might want to consider the "upweight." One of the places DPs often feel unlike the real thing is that they can push up on your fingers after you play keys, more so than even heavy feeling acoustics, I think because the weight of the hammer does not completely detach from the key as it does on an acoustic. A simulated escapement is not a true escapement.
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
But if the main factor indeed is hammer weight (and corresponding counterweight in keys so that the overall static force is about 50g to push down a key), can digital pianos be modified so that more mass is added both to hammers and keys so it feels like a truck, too? ^_^

Don't worry. The action of the Yamaha piano you just ordered is considered "heavy" by most people. Unlike Kawai actions the static weight is pretty high, which is typical for Yamaha actions, while the dynamic weight is the same as for every digital piano.

So you can look forward to your "truck". laugh


Lol. I love truck-ey pianos, as I'm used to them, it seems like I can control even-ness of phrasing and dynamics better. But I'm sure if was used more to light actions I would be more comfortable with them. I admire pianists who have so much experience that they can switch between very different actions and don't have any problems. It's almost like giving someone with a 9-5 office job suddenly re-stocking duties, lifting heavy boxes...not a true analogy, since piano is not supposed to be a "labour", but some amount of force is required (and that amount depends on the heaviness of the action), one cannot really cheat physics. (just my opinion, don't kill me. also, switching from a heavy action to a lighter but "real" (acoustic, upright perhaps) action seems like fun initially, everything is super easy and quick, but after some time, switching back to a heavy action feels laborious)



I know what you are saying. I prefer heavy actions as well. Early on in my own DP research process many were advising me against the VPC-1 over an MP11SE which had a slightly lighter action especially when playing towards the fall board. I'm so used to a heavy action that I went with the VPC-1. I've never really felt a digital piano action (I'm not referring to some hybrids) that felt exactly like the real thing, so as long as you are not expecting perfection, you will be happy. My opinion on the VPC-1 is that it's action is slightly mushy and bouncier than the millennium 3 action on my RX-2 and SK-2 acoustics (which honestly felt the same to me). But this does not necessarily make the VPC-1's action bad at all. In fact it reminded me a lot of an Estonia 168/190's Renner action I tried out in Sarasota a few years ago. That "mushy" kind of action that you can easily adapt to. It's a fine action.

I'm hoping you still give the VPC-1 and Pianoteq a tryout before you make a final decision. I could care less if one less VPC-1 is sold or if you don't take my advice. But I honestly think you are doing yourself a disservice by not at least trying to experience for yourself what the fuss is all about. Those two videos I posted by Hugh Sung (which honestly I never saw before yesterday) explain exactly what I've been trying to say. It's all about control and your ability to shape a phrase that makes Pianoteq such a compelling product, and the pianos sound phenomenal in the latest version. I guess you could get any DP and just use Pianoteq with it, but with the VPC-1 you are giving self an advantage right off the bat because of that collaboration Kawai had with Moddart in the development phase of the VPC-1. Velocity curves are very important and in the VPC-1 it is fine tuned by professional sound engineers specifically for Pianoteq. If the VPC-1 had a bad action I would not advise it as a choice and as you have seen yourself, it is pretty good.

You might want to think of it this way. Pianoteq gives you the ability to strike the piano with one finger in at any moment in time 11176 (the maximum allowed by MIDI) different ways when spread across 88 keys whereas with the use of sampled sounds whether they be onboard or via VST's you only a palette of around 880 possible ways to strike the piano with one finger. If you were to use all your fingers just multiply those numbers by a factor of 10. This does not include all the other variables that Pianoteq takes into account like pedaling techniques, resonsances etc.. Compared to an acoustic, even Pianoteq is by definition limiting because based on MIDI technology today, there's just so much you can do with those 1's and 0's, but why hamper your creativity right off the bat? Pianoteq gives you the best chance to express yourself more accurately than sampled sounds. In my opinion, like Hugh Sung says, it's too limiting that you feel like you are handcuffed and that's exactly how I experience it.

Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Originally Posted by KevinM
Well I'm off to play on a concert grade Yamaha grand piano for the first time in my life. I have a Casio AP-470 and I suspect there will be a world of difference in the actions.

All this discussion I have been following will be made real to some small extent by being able to do a physical comparison.


Definitely leave a feedback after you try it! And good luck (if it's for your recital) smile


The difference is huge, and I think I get some idea and about what dynamic weight is when it comes to playing. That dynamic weight means there is a much greater physical connection between the effort you are making and the loudness. With the digital piano it is so easy to get a different velocity I think it is hard to control. With the acoustic grand there is actual physical effort required to throw that hammer and I felt I was able to regulate what I was playing far more. I want loud I've got to put effort into it, with my DP, I want loud I've just got to move my finger faster and there is little in the way of inertia to overcome.
I think you've become lost in the numbers.
Originally Posted by Jethro
Pianoteq gives you the ability to strike the piano with one finger in at any moment in time 11176 different ways when spread across 88 keys whereas with the use of sampled sounds ... you only a palette of around 880 possible ways to strike the piano with one finger.
Woe is me! I have only 880 ways to play a note. I'm missing out on the other 10295 ways. I'm doomed! smile
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I think you've become lost in the numbers.
Originally Posted by Jethro
Pianoteq gives you the ability to strike the piano with one finger in at any moment in time 11176 different ways when spread across 88 keys whereas with the use of sampled sounds ... you only a palette of around 880 possible ways to strike the piano with one finger.
Woe is me! I have only 880 ways to play a note. I'm missing out on the other 10295 ways. I'm doomed! smile

smile

You realize when you play an acoustic that those levels raise to infinity. How do shape a phrase and maintain a beautiful line if you are only playing with a fraction of the palette sounds available? It's like when my little brother couldn't understand why my lego homes always looked better than his. I was playing with regular bricks and I always gave him the Duplos. He never figured it out. LOL
Originally Posted by Jethro

I'm hoping you still give the VPC-1 and Pianoteq a tryout before you make a final decision. I could care less if one less VPC-1 is sold or if you don't take my advice. But I honestly think you are doing yourself a disservice by not at least trying to experience for yourself what the fuss is all about. Those two videos I posted by Hugh Sung (which honestly I never saw before yesterday) explain exactly what I've been trying to say. It's all about control and your ability to shape a phrase that makes Pianoteq such a compelling product, and the pianos sound phenomenal in the latest version. I guess you could get any DP and just use Pianoteq with it, but with the VPC-1 you are giving self an advantage right off the bat because of that collaboration Kawai had with Moddart in the development phase of the VPC-1. Velocity curves are very important and in the VPC-1 it is fine tuned by professional sound engineers specifically for Pianoteq. If the VPC-1 had a bad action I would not advise it as a choice and as you have seen yourself, it is pretty good.


Did it ever occur to you that you sound like an exclusive Pianoteq+VPC1 salesman...?

Anyway, it won't be so easy. To try VPC1, first, I have to return Yamaha P-515 (which might or might not happen, depending on whether I like it or not), then I have to buy VPC1 (unfortunately, -10% sale I found on <acoustic prolongation of a sound>.com ends on June 22nd, so I'd have to buy it for a full price). Then I have to buy Pianoteq and start tweaking and playing until I feel I "tried" it enough. I'm afraid at that point I'd be unable to return neither VPC1 nor Pianoteq.

On the other hand, now that I'm waiting for Yamaha P-515 I'm weirdly sad for not getting VPC1. I really like the design and even though it's action is not super realistic, it's better than anything else I tried (maybe except Juno DS88, which felt amazingly realistic, but a bit too light. I wish there was a DP with Juno DS88 feeling, but heavier). Sometimes, I base my decisions a lot on my emotions so I might end up getting VPC1 just because of this. Plus I'm a computer nerd so I feel like I would enjoy playing around with curves just to analyze the interaction between player and instrument.
Originally Posted by Jethro
Pianoteq gives you the ability to strike the piano with one finger in at any moment in time 11176 different ways when spread across 88 keys whereas with the use of sampled sounds ... you only a palette of around 880 possible ways to strike the piano with one finger.

No, that’s not correct. Sample based pianos morph between the layers. Which is why you have 127 different ways for each of their 88 keys and so it’s the same number as on Pianoteq. You’re spreading a lot of misinformation based on your lack of understanding how things work. Which kind of speaks for itself about the credibility of your other statements smile
Originally Posted by CyberGene

No, that’s not correct. Sample based pianos morph between the layers. Which is why you have 127 different ways for each of their 88 keys and so it’s the same number as on Pianoteq. You’re spreading a lot of misinformation based on your lack of understanding how things work. Which kind of speaks for itself about the credibility of your other statements smile


My guess is, that as far as volume is concerned, 127 should be well enough (can you hear difference between 61 and 62?)

However, it's the sampling of timbre that worries me. In my original post I mentioned the Steinway in the local music school and how beautifully changes timbre from soft to a brighter tone while never sounding unpleasantly, even if one puts tremendous amount of force into it...it always have some new shade of timbre to surprise us with. So the question is: how sparsely is timbre sampled on digital pianos? If the timbre never changes (one sample), it's not going to be realistic - recording a piano played softly and just playing it louder is not the same as recording the piano at higher dynamic markings...
Digital pianos around 2000 used to have three layers, probably a pp, mp, ff. 20 years later it’s not officially listed in the specifications for hardware digital pianos anymore, so we can only guess. And for software ones it varies but is probably around 10. One can argue that having 10 layers covering everything from ppp to fff and blending/morphing would effectively give you the same result as sampling 127 velocities.

I think real pianos sound, well, real, because there are so many tiny inconsistencies and even stochastic factors. Neither a sample based piano nor Pianoteq can give you that. In my entirely biased opinion Pianoteq to my own ears sounds even more monotonous than sampled pianos. Jethro and others won’t agree. But you can always download Pianoteq and try it. A few black keys are disabled but other than that it’s fully functional. With 6.5 there’s been considerable improvement indeed. I liked it to some degree although I’m usually very sensitive to the typical modeled artifacts. It still has some road to go but is a good piano considering price, performance, size, configurability.
@Jethro : You said : “Pianoteq gives you the ability to strike the piano with one finger in at any moment in time 11176 (the maximum allowed by MIDI) different ways when spread across 88 keys ”.

The actual number is 127 velocities with plain MIDI, multiply by 128 if you add HiRes Velocity (16256). Pianoteq does support this extension. And some digital piano does send extended velocities (some Casio). However, the Piano Phoenix of Adele H is designed from confirmed pianist needs and the number of useful velocity seems (according to the maker) around 1300 velocities. The Steinway Spirio is around the same numbers (1020). No needs of 16256.

But I have an hard time to hit multiple notes and not change the velocity between 2 hits. The 127 limit won’t impact my play.
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
@Jethro : You said : “Pianoteq gives you the ability to strike the piano with one finger in at any moment in time 11176 (the maximum allowed by MIDI) different ways when spread across 88 keys ”.

The actual number is 127 velocities with plain MIDI, multiply by 128 if you add HiRes Velocity (16256). Pianoteq does support this extension. And some digital piano does send extended velocities (some Casio). However, the Piano Phoenix of Adele H is designed from confirmed pianist needs and the number of useful velocity seems (according to the maker) around 1300 velocities. The Steinway Spirio is around the same numbers (1020). No needs of 16256.

But I have an hard time to hit multiple notes and not change the velocity between 2 hits. The 127 limit won’t impact my play.


Interesting. It's even more than I thought. Explain this HiRes Velocity to me please.
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
But I have an hard time to hit multiple notes and not change the velocity between 2 hits. The 127 limit won’t impact my play.

The value of having a certain number of velocity levels has nothing to do with one's ability to generate or repeat a particular value on demand.
Originally Posted by anotherscott

The value of having a certain number of velocity levels has nothing to do with one's ability to generate or repeat a particular value on demand.


IMHO it does. If best pianists in the world cannot repeat the same velocity level (e.g.) #4950 out of 16256 and finest ears in the world cannot tell the difference between #4950 and #4951, heck even between #4900 and #5000, what are all those levels for, then? Even with a well-regulated acoustic piano, if you take a machine that strikes the key with precisely calculated force won't produce the very same sound twice in a row, why strive for that amount of precision, digitally?

What I'm saying is that we should aim for some reasonable balance. One/two/three timbre levels are perhaps too few, what's enough? 10? 20? 50? I don't know. Velocity levels? I think 127 is enough, at that point one can't tell the difference anymore, but if you think you can tell the difference, we should definitely do a test. Both playing and listening and see what's the typical margin at which one deems the level being as same. Make a pianist play same note/chord at some dynamic marking when he thinks he plays it at the same velocity and see in a software what the distribution looks like (gaussian?), i.e. standard deviation as a % of the mean loudness. If it's too little, we might have a problem. If it's spread out a little and people would still say "yeah he played all chords mf, very even and nice", then making levels more fine might be pointless. Is my logic wrong here? I think it's obvious the number of needed levels relates somehow to what people can reasonable produce and hear in practice.
For one thing, let's say you can only reliably repeat a note within 10 digits out of the standard MIDI 127 (i.e. plus or minus 5, which would still be pretty good). Repeating numbers 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, etc. would all be different, because 50 would repeat as something between 45 and 55, 51 would be something between 46 and 56, and so on.

And if you were to use the "+/- 5" as a rationale for having far fewer values, (i.e. the only values from 30 to 60 would be 30, 35, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60 on the basis that that's as close as you can intentionally differentiate your strikes anyway), crescendos would be far less smooth, i.e. if every subtle increase between 30 and 60 were rounded to the nearest 5. In reality, 33 and 37 should not sound the same, though both would round to 35. You might not be able to reliably produce a 33 or a 37, but the crescendo does not demand that. What the crescendo wants is for the second note to be louder than the first.

It's really not about your ability to repeat or generate something on demand. It's about the ability for the keyboard to respond to exactly what you play, regardless of any conscious intent. And uncontrolled small variations is part of what makes something sound human.
Originally Posted by anotherscott
For one thing, let's say you can only reliably repeat a note within 10 digits out of the standard MIDI 127 (i.e. plus or minus 5, which would still be pretty good). Repeating numbers 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, etc. would all be different, because 50 would repeat as something between 45 and 55, 51 would be something between 46 and 56, and so on.

And if you were to use the "+/- 5" as a rationale for having far fewer values, (i.e. the only values from 30 to 60 would be 30, 35, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60 on the basis that that's as close as you can intentionally differentiate your strikes anyway), crescendos would be far less smooth, i.e. if every subtle increase between 30 and 60 were rounded to the nearest 5. In reality, 33 and 37 should not sound the same, though both would round to 35. You might not be able to reliably produce a 33 or a 37, but the crescendo does not demand that. What the crescendo wants is for the second note to be louder than the first.

It's really not about your ability to repeat or generate something on demand. It's about the ability for the keyboard to respond to exactly what you play, regardless of any conscious intent. And uncontrolled small variations is part of what makes something sound human.


Subdivision should be so fine that it's negligible when compared to what pianist can consistently repeat. If he can repeat within +/- 5 units, than it's up to people to decide whether 1 is negligible against 5. At least this principle works in physics. Want to model waves on a finite grid? Choose the grid spacing so that it's much smaller than the wavelength. Factor of 10, or 20 is often enough. Using the same spacing without leaving no margin is not reasonable.
I don't fully understand your post.

One more point though... "+/- 5" from your target also doesn't mean that each number in that range has an equal chance of being sounded. Probability is that the numbers closer to your target should be hit more often than the ones farther from your target.

Yet another variable is the skills of different players. One player may be able to stay closer to the target than another.

But if you don't think that having more values than you can consciously repeat is of value, this would be an interesting experiment: With software (like Pianoteq + a MIDI monitor), see what encompasses a repeatable value for you; then use software to round all input to a small enough number of output values such that you can reliably trigger each of the available values (by coming close enough that it would be rounded to that figure). You might end up with as few as about a dozen values that, with rounding, are entirely repeatable for you. So then use MIDI filtering/mapping so that Pianoteq (or whatever) only sees those dozen values regardless of what you play (by always picking the one you're closest to). Even though it will be at the limit of your repeatability, I think you will find it to play terribly.
It doesn't matter.

My car can go at infinitely many speeds, but the speedometer only shows integers. I can't possibly know that I'm traveling 47.3 MPH when it reads 47 MPH.
But it doesn't matter.

The environment may present us with an infinite variety ... but the human senses are limited.
For practical purpose, if you can't sense it, it doesn't exist.

Again ... don't get lost in the numbers. Focus on the senses, the music, the art.
Focus on the results. The numbers don't matter.

It matters even less when you realize that the piano keyboard can produce only 127 possible velocities for a note.
I don't know where you came up with that 11176 number.
Originally Posted by Jethro
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I think you've become lost in the numbers.
Originally Posted by Jethro
Pianoteq gives you the ability to strike the piano with one finger in at any moment in time 11176 different ways when spread across 88 keys whereas with the use of sampled sounds ... you only a palette of around 880 possible ways to strike the piano with one finger.
Woe is me! I have only 880 ways to play a note. I'm missing out on the other 10295 ways. I'm doomed! smile
You realize when you play an acoustic that those levels raise to infinity. How do shape a phrase and maintain a beautiful line if you are only playing with a fraction of the palette sounds available? It's like when my little brother couldn't understand why my lego homes always looked better than his. I was playing with regular bricks and I always gave him the Duplos. He never figured it out. LOL

This is an interesting proposal for an experiment.
I think you need to add one more thing: a manner in which to judge the results.
Originally Posted by anotherscott
If you don't think that having more values than you can consciously repeat is of value, this would be an interesting experiment:
With software (like Pianoteq + a MIDI monitor), see what encompasses a repeatable value for you.
Then use software to round all input to a small enough number of output values such that you can reliably trigger each of the available values (by coming close enough that it would be rounded to that figure).
You might end up with as few as about a dozen values that, with rounding, are entirely repeatable for you.
So then use MIDI filtering/mapping so that Pianoteq (or whatever) only sees those dozen values regardless of what you play (by always picking the one you're closest to).
Even though it will be at the limit of your repeatability, I think you will find it to play terribly.
You need to measure the sonic result, right?
I don't care about variation in MIDI values ... except to the extent that it produces an audible variation.
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
My car can go at infinitely many speeds, but the speedometer only shows integers. I can't possibly know that I'm traveling 47.3 MPH when it reads 47 MPH.

Moreover, you CAN travel at 47.3. Your ability to intentionally drive at exactly 47.3 on demand may not exist, but imagine if some science fiction car could only drive at whole integers, and when gradually accelerating (i.e. as in a crescendo), it would instantaneously jump from each integer value to the next, what a rocky trip that would be!
If you sense it, it matters.
If you cannot, it doesn't.
Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
My car can go at infinitely many speeds, but the speedometer only shows integers. I can't possibly know that I'm traveling 47.3 MPH when it reads 47 MPH.

Moreover, you CAN travel at 47.3. Your ability to intentionally drive at exactly 47.3 on demand may not exist, but imagine if some science fiction car could only drive at whole integers, and when gradually accelerating (i.e. as in a crescendo), it would instantaneously jump from each integer value to the next, what a rocky trip that would be!

Yes, but speed is a continuous function, it's a derivative of movement over time. However in pianos each strike has a single velocity, and then there's another strike, but the two are not connected. They are separate because you have to restrike. You can't make the piano produce a continuous change of velocity because strikes are separate events and not a function, hence it's difficult (or even impossible) to perceive steps. If a pianist can prove that presented with a piano that produces regular MIDI values he can consistently hit a particular value from 1-127 interval, then we can eventually move on to measuring his abilities in hitting exact HD-value. But other than that having HD-MIDI values is absolutely meaningless.

And then there's another angle. The fact that a keyboard can produce HD-values doesn't mean its precision is the same. MIDI-controllers usually scan the triple (or double) sensors of the entire keyboard in succession. They are not event-driven, i.e. the controller logic won't get triggered the moment a particular sensor is active. Instead they will read it (it's a simple contact switch) at some point and will at that point in time conclude it's activated. However due to the scanning sequence it may turn out that the sensor was activated 87 key-scans earlier. Although the granularity of the MIDI values might be higher, the precision is lower.
Of course the car analogy (like most analogies) is imprecise. Nevertheless, even someone who can produce only a dozen or so distinct values on demand (i.e. each within a repeatable margin without overlapping another) will benefit from having more values than that available (for example, in a crescendo). Again, it's not about your ability to repeat, it's about the ability of the instrument to respond to what you do, regardless of how much or how little precise control you have over what you do.
Yes, a piano with more resolution will respond differently than one with less.
But my ear's resolution matters.
The piano only has to be as good as my ears. Or yours.
More resolution or more precision matters only if you can hear the difference.
Okay, so what's the ultimate output of this? How many levels is enough for you? 127? Thousands? Milions? 10^10? I don't see the practical answer, apart from hints on "no finite amount is enough"...
The answer is that other things are SO much more important than whether a DP has the standard 127 levels or more that that should be about the last thing you should be considering at this point, even if there WAS universal consensus about it, which there isn't. Don't worry about it. Most people are playing on boards with 127, and most people are fine with it.
Originally Posted by anotherscott
The answer is that other things are SO much more important than whether a DP has the standard 127 levels or more that that should be about the last thing you should be considering at this point, even if there WAS universal consensus about it, which there isn't. Don't worry about it. Most people are playing on boards with 127, and most people are fine with it.


Yep. As far as volume is concerned, I agree. However, for timbre, I don't think a handful (1, 2, 3...) of different tone qualities is enough. It sounds very artificial.

As a side note, I'd be very interested how "interpolation between sounds" works...like, you recorded ppp timbre, mf and fff. Now let's say you play p...what algorithm interpolates between those pre-set timbres? As for velocity I kinda get it, just make ppp louder or mf quieter, but how do you combine two different sounds? (i.e. the question for me is..."how is linear combination of two tone qualities defined?" - or any combination, for that matter)
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
It doesn't matter.

My car can go at infinitely many speeds, but the speedometer only shows integers. I can't possibly know that I'm traveling 47.3 MPH when it reads 47 MPH.
But it doesn't matter.

The environment may present us with an infinite variety ... but the human senses are limited.
For practical purpose, if you can't sense it, it doesn't exist.

Again ... don't get lost in the numbers. Focus on the senses, the music, the art.
Focus on the results. The numbers don't matter.

It matters even less when you realize that the piano keyboard can produce only 127 possible velocities for a note.
I don't know where you came up with that 11176 number.
Originally Posted by Jethro
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I think you've become lost in the numbers.
Originally Posted by Jethro
Pianoteq gives you the ability to strike the piano with one finger in at any moment in time 11176 different ways when spread across 88 keys whereas with the use of sampled sounds ... you only a palette of around 880 possible ways to strike the piano with one finger.
Woe is me! I have only 880 ways to play a note. I'm missing out on the other 10295 ways. I'm doomed! smile
You realize when you play an acoustic that those levels raise to infinity. How do shape a phrase and maintain a beautiful line if you are only playing with a fraction of the palette sounds available? It's like when my little brother couldn't understand why my lego homes always looked better than his. I was playing with regular bricks and I always gave him the Duplos. He never figured it out. LOL



It's really frustrating for me because I mean no ill towards anyone here. I have written in the past my frustrations with digital pianos I have owned 3 or 4 digital grands over the past 20 years. All of them had sampled sounds and it was not the quality of the samples that bothered me it was the fact that I felt so disconnected from the music because the lack of sensitivity the digital piano offered. This is the same disconnect classical pianist Hugh Sung in those videos I posted comments about.

YES, the lack continuity, the lack of precision, the lack sensitivity produced by sampled pianos when trying to shape a phrase, produce coloration or maintain an even line IS VERY VERY VERY OBVIOUS even on the best sampled VSTs today because the technology that is used has not fundamentally changed.

Hugh Sung already explains the reason for this and don't know if I can make it any clearer.

When you learn the piano you spend decades trying to make connection between your brain and the amount pressure and velocity you apply to each individual keys with each individual finger you possess. You could call this sensitivity. (Good piano is not just about playing fast BTW). It's this sensitivity that allows you to express yourself through your music. Your brain is not limited to only 127 ways to press that key. The possibilities are limitless and your ability to manipulate those possibilities plays a part in your ability to be a good pianist. That's why music is considered a "fine art".

When you play an acoustic piano there is practically no limitations to how fast or hard you can strike a key the only limitations being your strength and speed and the physical limitations of the piano. But in the digital world due to limitations with technology and standards were established decades we are limited. We are limited by 127 levels/gradations/velocities whatever you want to call it and that IN ITSELF is limiting. But the forefathers of this technology felt at the time given the limitations of technology itself or the intention of digital instruments at the time when MIDI was conceived thought that 127 levels would suffice. I don't think they ever had trained classical musicians in mind when they designed the MIDI.

Now take those 127 gradations/possibilities/velocities (whatever) and now handicap it even further by saying I am going to take only 10 instances out of those 127 instances to represent the entire group of 127 possibilities and spread them out hoping that no one would notice. Well, that's exactly what sampled sounds do. They take a microphone and they have a machine or a pianist strike a single 10 different velocities and record them. They record from the softest for example to loudest. So instead of recording let's say at level1, level2 level 3, level 4- They record at level 1 and then immediately jump to say level 8, and then jump to level 16 all the way up to level 127. When you are playing a digital piano and you strike the key, all you are hearing are RECORDINGS, but those recordings are limited to only 10 levels per key.

Pianoteq doesn't do that. Because it's generating sound in real time using the same digital medium (ie 1's and 0's) as sampled sound using fancy algorithms you are given the full palette of instances that MIDI has to offer (127 to be exact). So theoretically with Pianoteq you can strike a key using 127 different velocities compared to the 8-10 velocities found not today's digital pianos or software VSTS that use sampled sounds. For the novice pianist 8-10 possibilities may be enough and appears more accessible, for the rock band keyboardist it may be just enough, a trained classical pianist or a serious learner this would be a disaster.

So to use an example if I asked you to play a series of 50 notes legato from ppp to FFF and back to ppp, if you only had 10 possibilities with a digital piano and 127 possibilities with Pianoteq, you would clearly be more limited with the digital sample then with Pianoteq and this IS exactly what us experienced pianists hear when we play with a digital instrument with digital samples. There are too many levels missing. There are too many gaps that it's hard to phrase a musical line cleanly or produce colorations or find the exact tone we looking for. If you are listening to just one note from attack to release, yeah I'm sure the sampled sounds will sound nice, but music is about connecting tones and this is where sampled technology falls flat and why many pianists consider digital pianos nothing more than "toys".

Cybergene likes to believe that sampled sounds solves this by "morphing" when what he actually means is blending sounds. Our brain has the ability to fill in gaps to a degree much like when you watch TV you fill in all the pixels. But to use a visual analogy. Can you tell the difference between compact disc and blu ray? I can. The brain has the ability to blend with compact disc but still the picture is not as clear as with blu-ray. Why? Because there is more data available visually in blu-ray versus compact disc. It's the same thing with Pianoteq versus sampled sounds. There is more data available to the auditory representation is more accurate. When it comes to the fine arts we want blu ray data not compact disc and yes you absolutely can hear these differences as clear as night and day if you know what you are supposed to be listening for.

anotherscott thinks there are other things more important than the levels. And I agree.

I think the most important thing is the fingers on the keys making music.

I prefer to judge the quality of the results, and leave alone any worries of how it got that way.
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
for timbre, I don't think a handful (1, 2, 3...) of different tone qualities is enough. It sounds very artificial.

Modeled pianos, at least theoretically, can generate a different timbre for every velocity. A sampled piano that uses 3 samples per note will play the quietest samples (at different levels of loudness) for the lowest velocities (say, 1 through 40 on a system of 127), the mid-level sample for middle velocities (say, 41 though 80), and the loudest velocity sample for the hardest struck notes (say, 81-127). They may also use other techniques like filters or crossfades to smooth transitions or provide additional timbal changes. There are plenty of keyboards and software systems that use more than 3 samples per key, but certainly none that use anything like 127. Some people prefer modeling because of the lack of the limited number of available velocity timbres, other people feel that while it may have that technical advantage, modeling (so far) falls short in other ways compared to their sampled pianos of choice.

But ultimately, you'll get your P515, and either you'll love the way it plays, or not, and all the rest is just academic. Though sure, since there's a free Pianoteq demo, you should try it and see what you think about that as well.
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
anotherscott thinks there are other things more important than the levels. And I agree.

I think the most important thing is the fingers on the keys making music.

I prefer to judge the quality of the results, and leave alone any worries of how it got that way.

I totally agree, but you need to have an instrument that responds the way it's supposed to respond. The best advice I would give is just stick to an acoustic. Can't go wrong there. I just had my Shigeru SK2 delivered today before the rain came and I am am in auditory heaven ....
Jethro, although I enjoy Pianoteq (I use it) - your theory kind of goes out of the window if it's true that most pianists, even concert ones, can only achieve about 10 (give or take) different levels of velocity. Hence, why the sample packs use 10 different samples.

However, there is weight to the fact that one person could have a slightly different, indeed offset, set of velocities. Pianoteq surely has them all covered in that case.

I just look at it as different pianos. Pianoteq, digital pianos, sample packs, acoustic pianos. I never thought there was an "ideal" sound for a piano. In fact I think it depends what you're playing.
Originally Posted by Zaphod
Jethro, although I enjoy Pianoteq (I use it) - your theory kind of goes out of the window if it's true that most pianists, even concert ones, can only achieve about 10 (give or take) different levels of velocity. Hence, why the sample packs use 10 different samples.

However, there is weight to the fact that one person could have a slightly different, indeed offset, set of velocities. Pianoteq surely has them all covered in that case.

I just look at it as different pianos. Pianoteq, digital pianos, sample packs, acoustic pianos. I never thought there was an "ideal" sound for a piano. In fact I think it depends what you're playing.


Where did you read that concert pianists can only achieve 10 or so velocities per key?
There's a bit of truth in this:
Quote
There is more data available to the auditory representation is more accurate.
But it ends at the limit of human perception. More is only better until it makes no further improvement.

I can't see this at all:
Quote
The possibilities are limitless ...
That's very poetic, but everything has limits.

This is mostly true:
Quote
When you play an acoustic piano there is practically no limitations to how fast or hard you can strike a key the only limitations being your strength and speed and the physical limitations of the piano.

But should we care about what the pianist does to the piano? I think only the results matter. It's the sound! The music!

As for 127 velocity levels being enough ... I'm sure it's more than enough. Way more.
If every level were spaced 0.5 dB apart you could span 64 dB of dynamic range. And no one can distinguish sounds that are a mere 0.5 dB apart.
Is that what led to the choice of 127 velocity levels 40 years ago? Or was it that 127 levels neatly fit into 7 bits of data? Or both?
I don't know. But the choice makes perfect sense.

Also ... to say that a digital piano has only 10 sampled levels was once true.
But even my ten-year-old copy of Ivory 1 has 18 levels.
Some newer virtual instruments have many many more. (Does anyone know?)
Also please re-read the many threads in which there is discussion of layer blending.

Quote
Can you tell the difference between compact disc and blu ray? I can.
I think you meant DVD vs. Blu Ray?
If so ... yes, we can all see the difference. It is easy to conclude that DVDs do not reach the limits of visual perception. So more is better. Blu Ray is better.
But, again, more is only better when you can tell the difference.
Here's a nice article that explains a little about how sensitive trained musicians are. The differences between Pianoteq and sampled sounds CAN be to this degree but the major differences between Pianoteq levels of sensitivity compared to sampled sounds level of sensitivity should be clear to an intermediate to advanced pianist.

Can you hear the differences in tone in the recording. I can. And this is what I'm referring to when I say it's hard to appreciate something when you have a difficult time knowing what to listen for. These things won't appear to matter now but it will hamper your development as you reach the intermediate to advanced stages of piano study. This is what I mean when I refer to sensitivity to what you are listening to. Can you tell that the second tone was struck slightly harder and with more attack? You wouldn't be able to create this tonal difference with a sampled sound but I bet you could with Pianoteq. Listen to it carefully.

If you don't have the proper tools to reach this level of sensitivity you are only handicapping yourself.

http://physicsbuzz.physicscentral.com/2014/12/hearing-pianists-fingers-importance-of.html
Just a quick question: would I be able to hook up Yamaha P-515 to my computer and use Pianoteq for generating sound and send it back to its speakers?
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Just a quick question: would I be able to hook up Yamaha P-515 to my computer and use Pianoteq for generating sound and send it back to its speakers?


Yes. I do this from my MacBook Pro with a single USB cable connected to the P-515.
Originally Posted by LarryK

Yes. I do this from my MacBook Pro with a single USB cable connected to the P-515.


Noice! Thanks.
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Just a quick question: would I be able to hook up Yamaha P-515 to my computer and use Pianoteq for generating sound and send it back to its speakers?

But just remember what Joe T told you about the P515 and Pianoteq. The notes were all over the place and it sounded like it sounded unplayable. That's where the VPC-1's professionally calibrated touch velocities come into play. I don't know if you will be able to adjust the velocity setting for Pianoteq on a P515. For the onboard sounds yes, I don't see an editor otherwise but I may be wrong.
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
If every level were spaced 0.5 dB apart you could span 64 dB of dynamic range.

That's true... but I don't think we should assume that 127 velocity levels calibrated to be .5 dB away from each other would necessarily produce the most naturally playable piano,

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
no one can distinguish sounds that are a mere 0.5 dB apart.

If they change in timbre as well as volume, such small increments would be easier to detect.
VSL's pianos have between 60 and 100 velocity layers.
Isn't Pianoteq's Bechstein DG based on a sampled instrument, the Bechstein Digital Grand?
I actually don't understand how Pianoteq works. So is it sampled or modeled? If sampled, why are people always talking about modeling? And if it's actually modeled, ...HOW? Is it some kind of a numerical simulation of a real piano? What details are modeled? I was once thinking how I would get a simulation of a single string and that would be pretty CPU-heavy, solving the wave equation with damping on a string with fixed ends, getting the Fourier spectrum and generate the note from that...but for many notes at the same time, at different velocities? Sounds impossible...
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
I actually don't understand how Pianoteq works. So is it sampled or modeled? If sampled, why are people always talking about modeling? And if it's actually modeled, ...HOW? Is it some kind of a numerical simulation of a real piano? What details are modeled? I was once thinking how I would get a simulation of a single string and that would be pretty CPU-heavy, solving the wave equation with damping on a string with fixed ends, getting the Fourier spectrum and generate the note from that...but for many notes at the same time, at different velocities? Sounds impossible...

It's not samples (recording), it's sound produced by algorithms (models) in real time. They tried to re-create digitally how a piano behaves. In sampling technology they are digitally recording (sampling) actual piano sounds with microphones and layering them. But in the end it's all digital 1's or O's so don't ever let any one fool you with this silly idea of one being more real than the next. What should matter the most is how does it sound and how does it play.
Pianoteq isn't a purely physical model. They use recordings of real pianos and attempt to reconcile their model and the sound of the piano. It doesn't actually have to recreate everything in real time.
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Pianoteq isn't a purely physical model. They use recordings of real pianos and attempt to reconcile their model and the sound of the piano. It doesn't actually have to recreate everything in real time.

Correct. Because that obviously is the best way to get an accurate representation of what they are trying to create. The sample is only the end point. What matters most is what happens in-between with all those fancy algorithms. The key thing to understand is that with Pianoteq you are NOT playing back those sampled recordings. That's why Pianoteq takes up so little disc space and requires so little computer horsepower.
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Pianoteq isn't a purely physical model. They use recordings of real pianos and attempt to reconcile their model and the sound of the piano. It doesn't actually have to recreate everything in real time.


For clarification (see http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/1438951/re-ca63-vs-pianoteq.html#Post1438951):
Originally Posted by pianophil
I am Philippe Guillaume, creator of Pianoteq. In the end, everything is samples from the soundcard point of view. Pianoteq is based on a model, that is, an approximation of the physical reality based on the equations of mechanics. Some parts of the model are generated in real time (the string vibrations, the soundboard resonance, etc.). Some parts of the model are computed each time a parameter is changed (string properties, soundboard properties, etc.). Some parts of the model are precomputed in Modartt's office ("virtual factory"), and among these precomputed data, you will find some samples. The only samples that are almost unprocessed recordings are the noises from the pedal and the note-off sounds.
DP actions are already noisy enough and pedals are squaky, so no need to reproduce that laugh lol
Originally Posted by Jethro
But in the end it's all digital 1's or O's so don't ever let any one fool you with this silly idea of one being more real than the next

Wasn't that exactly what you strenuously claimed for pianoteq?
Originally Posted by Jethro
Here's a nice article that explains a little about how sensitive trained musicians are. The differences between Pianoteq and sampled sounds CAN be to this degree but the major differences between Pianoteq levels of sensitivity compared to sampled sounds level of sensitivity should be clear to an intermediate to advanced pianist.

Can you hear the differences in tone in the recording. I can. And this is what I'm referring to when I say it's hard to appreciate something when you have a difficult time knowing what to listen for. These things won't appear to matter now but it will hamper your development as you reach the intermediate to advanced stages of piano study. This is what I mean when I refer to sensitivity to what you are listening to. Can you tell that the second tone was struck slightly harder and with more attack? You wouldn't be able to create this tonal difference with a sampled sound but I bet you could with Pianoteq. Listen to it carefully.

If you don't have the proper tools to reach this level of sensitivity you are only handicapping yourself.

http://physicsbuzz.physicscentral.com/2014/12/hearing-pianists-fingers-importance-of.html


Pianoteq can't distinguish between the different types of touch discussed in the article. It doesn't know if you slam it into the keybed or not. It gets a note-on message and a velocity irrespective of how the note is played.
Arguing with the radio...
I've read about cases where it is claimed that the manner of playing influences the sound. Hand, arm, and body motion are said to influence the piano.

On the surface this is nonsense. The piano is a insensitive to such. But I'd entertain the notion that the pianist is influenced by such things.

CG: My father used to use the phrase "talking to the wall". I've never before heard "arguing with the radio". smile
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I've never before heard "arguing with the radio". smile

Well, it’s translated from Bulgarian laugh
Originally Posted by johnstaf

Pianoteq can't distinguish between the different types of touch discussed in the article. It doesn't know if you slam it into the keybed or not. It gets a note-on message and a velocity irrespective of how the note is played.


I think this is the biggest difference between digital and acoustic, and why playing an acoustic is such a different, and way more versatile, expressive and responsive experience. I never realized it when i had zero experience with an acoustic.

Even the most expensive dp can't imitate this... yet. I wonder how it will be realized in the future.

I think people that are for example claiming a great dp is "better" than a decent upright might overlook this fact.
Originally Posted by johnstaf

Pianoteq can't distinguish between the different types of touch discussed in the article. It doesn't know if you slam it into the keybed or not. It gets a note-on message and a velocity irrespective of how the note is played.

Unless you believe it's possible to produce fff and beyond without slam (and by the same token, believe it's possible to simultaneously produce ppp and below while also slamming), you'd surely have to accept that slamming and velocity are highly correlated? i.e. Pianoteq distinguishes by virtue of key velocity.

Both modelled and sampled approaches can reproduce slamming if developers take the trouble to model/record appropriately.
Pianoteq is a model of a piano, and when you play it you are in fact simulating the pianos behaviour. The model has many parameters; some of them correspond to the physically measurable characteristics of the piano (length of strings, motion of hammers, etc.), and some of them correspond to things that cannot be measured.

Those latter parameters must also be set, in order for the model to be complete and usable. Since their values cannot be determined through measurements, they must be estimated through some other process. That other process is comparison of the simulated sound with sound from the physical instrument. Therefore samples should always be used. The Bechstein DG is not special in this respect. Of course, it would be possible for the Pianoteq team to simply vote for the values of those unmeasurable parameters, by using their ears as the judge. But using samples is quantifiable in a much more precise way, and therefore it is clearly the way to go for anyone wanting to model pianos.
Originally Posted by Jethro

Interesting. It's even more than I thought. Explain this HiRes Velocity to me please.

MIDI has a message format call Control Change with 2 values : the Control Change number and the value. (The number 64 is used for the damper pedal).

The Control change #88 is reserved to add precision on the velocity.

We can have the sequence

Control Change #88, 32
Note On C4, 56

Which means C4, velocity 56+32/128 = 56.25

As CyberGene said, when a keyboard send HiRes MIDI event, it doesn’t mean that all 16256 values are generated : this depends of the resolution of the timer used to scan the keyboard sensor. You may have only 1300 on a Piano Phoenix for example.
Originally Posted by dire tonic
Originally Posted by Jethro
But in the end it's all digital 1's or O's so don't ever let any one fool you with this silly idea of one being more real than the next

Wasn't that exactly what you strenuously claimed for pianoteq?


Ha. Got me. Should have been more clear in that statement. There is potentially no difference in how should "sound" because they are both digital representations but how they behave is a totally different matter.
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Originally Posted by Jethro

Interesting. It's even more than I thought. Explain this HiRes Velocity to me please.

MIDI has a message format call Control Change with 2 values : the Control Change number and the value. (The number 64 is used for the damper pedal).

The Control change #88 is reserved to add precision on the velocity.

We can have the sequence

Control Change #88, 32
Note On C4, 56

Which means C4, velocity 56+32/128 = 56.25

As CyberGene said, when a keyboard send HiRes MIDI event, it doesn’t mean that all 16256 values are generated : this depends of the resolution of the timer used to scan the keyboard sensor. You may have only 1300 on a Piano Phoenix for example.

I see. But if I understood you correctly Pianoteq cannot access this feature.
Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
Pianoteq is a model of a piano, and when you play it you are in fact simulating the pianos behaviour. The model has many parameters; some of them correspond to the physically measurable characteristics of the piano (length of strings, motion of hammers, etc.), and some of them correspond to things that cannot be measured.

Those latter parameters must also be set, in order for the model to be complete and usable. Since their values cannot be determined through measurements, they must be estimated through some other process. That other process is comparison of the simulated sound with sound from the physical instrument. Therefore samples should always be used. The Bechstein DG is not special in this respect. Of course, it would be possible for the Pianoteq team to simply vote for the values of those unmeasurable parameters, by using their ears as the judge. But using samples is quantifiable in a much more precise way, and therefore it is clearly the way to go for anyone wanting to model pianos.

Yes that's what I believe as well. Why re-invent the wheel? They must sample at some point to understand the properties of the instrument they are trying to recreate.
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by Jethro
Here's a nice article that explains a little about how sensitive trained musicians are. The differences between Pianoteq and sampled sounds CAN be to this degree but the major differences between Pianoteq levels of sensitivity compared to sampled sounds level of sensitivity should be clear to an intermediate to advanced pianist.

Can you hear the differences in tone in the recording. I can. And this is what I'm referring to when I say it's hard to appreciate something when you have a difficult time knowing what to listen for. These things won't appear to matter now but it will hamper your development as you reach the intermediate to advanced stages of piano study. This is what I mean when I refer to sensitivity to what you are listening to. Can you tell that the second tone was struck slightly harder and with more attack? You wouldn't be able to create this tonal difference with a sampled sound but I bet you could with Pianoteq. Listen to it carefully.

If you don't have the proper tools to reach this level of sensitivity you are only handicapping yourself.

http://physicsbuzz.physicscentral.com/2014/12/hearing-pianists-fingers-importance-of.html


Pianoteq can't distinguish between the different types of touch discussed in the article. It doesn't know if you slam it into the keybed or not. It gets a note-on message and a velocity irrespective of how the note is played.

I wouldn't be so sure of that.

The Pianoteq technology

Characteristics of Pianoteq
The piano sound is constructed in real time, responding to how the pianist strikes the keys and interacts with the pedals
It includes the entire complexity of a real piano (hammers, strings, duplex scale, pedals, cabinet)
Continuous velocity from pianissimo to fortissimo, with progressive variation of the timbre: that makes exactly 127 velocities! A sample-based software program would in theory require hundreds of gigabytes for all these velocities
Complex resonances that only a model can reproduce in all its richness:
Sympathetic resonance of all strings, both without and with sustain pedal
Duplex scale (the undamped string parts which come into resonance)
Sympathetic resonances between strings
Damper position effect when key is released (variable overtones damping)
Other special effects like staccato and sound continuation when pressing down the sustain pedal a short time after key release (re-pedalling)
Timbre modification of repeated notes, due to the hammer striking strings which are already in motion instead of being still
Release velocity
Eight types of pedals (that can be assigned to the four UI pedals):
Progressive sustain pedal, allowing the so-called “half pedal”, but also quarter or tenth’s pedals if you want!
Sostenuto pedal, allowing you to hold some notes after release without pressing down the sustain pedal,
Super Sostenuto pedal, where the notes held by the sostenuto can be replayed staccato, which is not possible on a “real” piano,
Harmonic pedal, allowing you to play staccato while maintaining the sustain pedal resonance,
Una corda pedal, also called soft pedal, modifying the sound quality or timbre by shifting the piano action to the right (on grand pianos),
Celeste peda, where a felt strip is interposed between hammers and strings, creating a softer sound. This pedal is usually found in upright pianos,
Rattle pedal, also called bassoon pedal, which equipped certain historical pianos, as for example the Besendorfer from the Kremsegg collection. A piece of parchment comes into contact with the strings to create a buzzing noise resembling the sound of the bassoon,
Lute pedal, where a wooden bar covered with felt is pressed against the strings, shortening the duration of the sound. It can be found in some historical pianos.
Variable lid position
Natural instrument noises including:
Variable action key release noise (varies with note duration and key release velocity if present)
Damper noise at key release (mainly for bass notes)
Sustain pedal noise: pedal velocity dependant “whoosh” produced by the dampers rising altogether from the strings or falling down
Choice of microphone position and multichannel mixing (up to 5 mics, 5 channels)
Microtuning and scala format files import
Various effects including equalizer, keyboard velocity setting, volume, sound dynamics which controls the loudness levels between pianissimo and fortissimo, reverberation with control of reverberation weight, duration and room size, limiter, tremolo.


https://www.pianoteq.com/pianoteq6?s=new

Fingers striking the key or the keys hitting bottom is a complex resonance I am sure Pianoteq took into account.
In searching for information I found this on their website and I agree with it (for those who want to read their take on sampled versus modeled)

Why a sampled piano is insufficient
The very best sampled pianos of today are the result of many hours of careful recordings associated with complex solutions designed to provide a valuable piano sound. We respect the work of these high class competitors who manage to develop sampled based pianos of this quality. However, as is well-known, sampling technology itself has inherent disadvantages.

To give you an understanding of the reasons why we chose to develop Pianoteq we find it necessary to describe the shortcomings of using samples to create a digital piano:

The sampled piano contains static recordings of each note, how it sounded during a particular moment in time. It does not take into account the influence of other strings vibrating, cabinet resonance, pedal interaction and hammer position.
The sampled piano cannot alter the existing piano samples when it comes to parameters such as hammer hardness, unison tuning, cabinet size, overtones spectrum etc.
The sampled piano has several technical limitations such as audible quantization noise and uneven variation of the timbre (from ppp to fff).
Despite many recent attempts to enhance the sampled piano sound by adding convolution reverb and other post processing effects, the technology as such has too many limitations when it comes to achieving a truly vivid and convincing piano sound.

https://www.pianoteq.com/pianoteq6?s=new
Is it fair to say that sampling technology has reached its limits?
From one -very simplistic- perspective, whilst everything is getting smaller, the ‘best’ sampled pianos are getting larger and ever more demanding on computing resources a.k.a. VSL’s mammoth (266GB); never mind the earth-shattering requirements!
They are still trying to convince us that more is always better, and in the process they continue to slam themselves onto that brick wall.
Pianoteq (modeling) decided to dig a tunnel under the wall and now they are way ahead on the other side, and it seems like no one can catch up with them.
Tone? Pianoteq is there and then some! Have you tried the new Bechstein? And more importantly, have you truly tweaked the editing parameters to better-suit your preferences? We can do bright, dark, in between, in your face, distant and cool, harsh, sublime, soft, hard, and/or all of the above. Place your order! laugh
Originally Posted by Jethro

I see. But if I understood you correctly Pianoteq cannot access this feature.

I have written the opposite : “Pianoteq does support this extension.”

More precisely, one of the MIDI settings of Pianoteq is the “dialect” : Auto-detect, Standard MIDI, Hi-Res CC#88 and Disklavier XP.
Pianoteq isn’t different than sampled pianos. It isn’t a proper physical model that solves differential equations. Instead it’s a synthesis that tries to approach samples. The result is it produces sound that’s similar to the source sample and applies resonance modeling on top of that. Well, my Yamaha for instance already has the samples, it doesn’t need to “approach” them. And has resonance modeling on top of that. It has smooth timbral gradation between ppp and fff and supports complex key-off behavior because the key position is measured all the time, not just the release velocity. So, Pianoteq isn’t better than that. In fact it’s worse than that and my experience confirms it.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Pianoteq isn’t different than sampled pianos. It isn’t a proper physical model that solves differential equations.


Sorry to contradict you CyberGene, but we do solve differential equations, as well as partial differential equations (PDEs). ODEs and PDEs are basic elements in our profession (we are researchers issued from a research lab specialized in PDEs (among other fields), the Institute of Mathematics of Toulouse). Nothing mysterious there, I think using PDEs is just the simplest way to reproduce complex physical phenomenons, because you get "for free" many important properties of the physics - "for free" because included in the equations.

Philippe (Modartt)
Originally Posted by pianophil

Sorry to contradict you CyberGene, but we do solve differential equations, as well as partial differential equations (PDEs). ODEs and PDEs are basic elements in our profession (we are researchers issued from a research lab specialized in PDEs (among other fields), the Institute of Mathematics of Toulouse). Nothing mysterious there, I think using PDEs is just the simplest way to reproduce complex physical phenomenons, because you get "for free" many important properties of the physics - "for free" because included in the equations.

Philippe (Modartt)


Do you solve them in real time? Do you model piano as a collection of ~200 (weakly interacting) strings consisting of a piece of thin, elastic continuum? That's what I could think of, how to utilize PDEs in piano modeling..
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Do you solve them in real time?


One thing I have read from the Modartt’s patent is the calculus of a sum of An.exp(-t/tn).sin(wn.t) or something like this. This can be calculated in real time. I guess the constants to be evaluated by resolving differential equations, but I have not understood clearly what is calculated before the installation of Pianoteq, and what is calculated when the piano configuration change (key pressed, key released, pedal down/up, etc).
Whether computations are done in real-time or not, I don't think I really care.
To me it's more important that the result should sound like a piano.
The tech doesn't matter. The results do.

That's why I use sampled VSTs. They're flawed, but they sound mostly realistic.
Pianoteq always sounds fake to me. And distant, as though the instrument were in another room.
The way we solve the equations represents many years of research and is too complicated to be described here. But in a few words, there are three levels: a "factory" level (computations done outside Pianoteq), non real time Pianoteq computations (when you change parameters values), and real time computations (when you play). Our patent gives indeed an idea of how it works, though we have learned a few things since we published the patent in 2006.
Ravenscroft feels ok for you?
Originally Posted by pianophil
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Pianoteq isn’t different than sampled pianos. It isn’t a proper physical model that solves differential equations.


Sorry to contradict you CyberGene, but we do solve differential equations, as well as partial differential equations (PDEs). ODEs and PDEs are basic elements in our profession (we are researchers issued from a research lab specialized in PDEs (among other fields), the Institute of Mathematics of Toulouse). Nothing mysterious there, I think using PDEs is just the simplest way to reproduce complex physical phenomenons, because you get "for free" many important properties of the physics - "for free" because included in the equations.

Philippe (Modartt)

Philippe, do you solve differential equations for the attack and sustain part of the sound. Equations describing a hammer striking a piano string? Correct me if I’m wrong but that’s not possible with current desktop computers and for 88 hammers and hundreds of strings. If you mean the resonance model, some digital pianos also provide virtual resonance modeling, so they also solve differential equations.
Are you able to put the piano out of tune in Pianoteq, i.e. put everything a little lower but not proportionally, or make unisons not match?
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Well, my Yamaha for instance already has the samples, it doesn’t need to “approach” them. And has resonance modeling on top of that. It has smooth timbral gradation between ppp and fff and supports complex key-off behavior because the key position is measured all the time, not just the release velocity.

While Roland has gone too far with their most recent sound engine, Yamaha found the holy grail IMHO, regardless of how much samples play a role in the result. Roland's previous SuperNATURAL generator was close as well.
P.S. another question. According to your patent you superimpose sampled attacks with synthesized sustain where the sustain part is created by the means of summing sine waves that will approach the spectral components of the sound. Is that still true?
The patent describe a percussive component which is not modelled. :

b(p,t) represents the percussive part of the sound and any other component of the sound that cannot be modelled (or that can only be poorly modelled) by a decomposition into a sum of sines.
[...]
Preferably a plurality of noises b(p,t) of percussion are recorded for various notes p. In addition, nothing prevents recording various percussion noises, each one corresponding to various forces of impact of the hammer on the strings, with a view to producing a percussive sound for each note p played by the instrumentalist, by expressing the nuances of his/her playing in a more realistic manner.

You should read https://patents.google.com/patent/US7915515B2/en

EDIT : I have not read your last message when answering.
Frédéric, yes, exactly, that’s what I’m referring to. I find it slightly unfair to market the piano as fully modeled whereas in reality it’s only partially modeled (the resonances are modeled), which then holds true for Yamaha and Kawai digital pianos.

In another paper in some of those other threads where we discussed modeling, it was stated that 1 second of fully modeled sound took 24 hours to render on a very powerful computer.
Originally Posted by Frédéric L

One thing I have read from the Modartt’s patent is the calculus of a sum of An.exp(-t/tn).sin(wn.t) or something like this. This can be calculated in real time. I guess the constants to be evaluated by resolving differential equations, but I have not understood clearly what is calculated before the installation of Pianoteq, and what is calculated when the piano configuration change (key pressed, key released, pedal down/up, etc).


That hints on the problem solved being linear (the solution is a linear combination of decaying plane waves). However, it is well-known that piano sound is not produced linearly (why else would timbre change when hitting the notes with more velocity? = not only amplitudes of overtones change, but also their mutual ratios, hence the timbre changes, because timbre is given by the spectrum of overtones)...

P.S.: anything and everything can be a linear combination of decaying plane waves, even a solution to a non-linear problem. However, what I'm saying is that decomposing the solution into Fourier components is usually effective only if the problem is linear and homogenuous.
Our patent is 13 years old, and a few things have been improved since, as you can deduce it from our change history https://www.pianoteq.com/changelog
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Frédéric, yes, exactly, that’s what I’m referring to. I find it slightly unfair to market the piano as fully modeled whereas in reality it’s only partially modeled (the resonances are modeled), which then holds true for Yamaha and Kawai digital pianos.


I'm sorry to contradict you again Cybergene, but the whole piano is modelled in Pianoteq, not only the resonances.
Originally Posted by pianophil
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Frédéric, yes, exactly, that’s what I’m referring to. I find it slightly unfair to market the piano as fully modeled whereas in reality it’s only partially modeled (the resonances are modeled), which then holds true for Yamaha and Kawai digital pianos.


I'm sorry to contradict you again Cybergene, but the whole piano is modelled in Pianoteq, not only the resonances.

Philippe, thanks for answering. It’s ultimately a matter of semantics and what one calls “fully modeled”. In my own understanding you have to represent each string and hammer with a differential equation, solve that in real time to produce sound. Apparently that’s impossible with current or even near future hardware.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by pianophil
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Frédéric, yes, exactly, that’s what I’m referring to. I find it slightly unfair to market the piano as fully modeled whereas in reality it’s only partially modeled (the resonances are modeled), which then holds true for Yamaha and Kawai digital pianos.


I'm sorry to contradict you again Cybergene, but the whole piano is modelled in Pianoteq, not only the resonances.

Philippe, thanks for answering. It’s ultimately a matter of semantics and what one calls “fully modeled”. In my own understanding you have to represent each string and hammer with a differential equation, solve that in real time to produce sound. Apparently that’s impossible with current or even near future hardware.


It may be indeed a matter of semantic, as you seem to understand “fully modeled” as something like "everything is computed in real time using the equations of physics" wheras I understand “fully modeled” as something like "everything is computed using the equations of physics, in several stages including external precomputations, internal precomputations and real time computations".
Does it really matter?
It might be modeled or sampled ...
Or shmodeled or shmampled ...
Or hobbled or hampered ...
It don't really care.

How does it feel? How does it sound? Those things matter.
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Are you able to put the piano out of tune in Pianoteq, i.e. put everything a little lower but not proportionally, or make unisons not match?

Yes, you can. See the "Fine details of sound" tab on the following page:
https://www.pianoteq.com/pianoteq6
You can also change the condition of the piano from "mint" to "worn" using a slider.
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
That hints on the problem solved being linear (the solution is a linear combination of decaying plane waves). However, it is well-known that piano sound is not produced linearly (why else would timbre change when hitting the notes with more velocity? = not only amplitudes of overtones change, but also their mutual ratios, hence the timbre changes, because timbre is given by the spectrum of overtones)...


We can have a non-linear model which convert velocities to a set of initial condition, and a linear model which compute the evolution of the strings afterwards.

(Pianoteq has 3 settings of hammer hardness... then we can have an “actual hardeness” which is an interpolation given by the velocity and the 3 hardness).

I have read (Chabassier’s thesis) that the piano is not really linear, then the partial frequencies depends of the amplitudes. https://pastel.archives-ouvertes.fr/file/index/docid/690351/filename/These.pdf P41 but we can approximate by a linear solution and perhaps add a correction in order to be more precise.
Originally Posted by Jethro
I don't know if you will be able to adjust the velocity setting for Pianoteq on a P515. .

But regardless, you could tweak the velocity settings on the computer side, couldn't you?

As for what constitutes a modeled vs. sampled piano, I don't know... Roland SuperNatural uses samples but adds modeling. From what I've read, Roland V-Piano supposedly uses no samples at all, it's all modeled. And at the other end, a simple piano like an old Yamaha P85 I believe only sampled a single velocity layer, yet had pleasing dynamic expressivity by applying processing/filters with velocity... was that modeling over a sample?
Originally Posted by pianophil
Our patent is 13 years old, and a few things have been improved since, as you can deduce it from our change history https://www.pianoteq.com/changelog

The changelog doesn’t say what is changed about the internals. This is expected (the normal user doesn’t care). Then it is difficult to know which part of the patent has been improved.
What version of Pianoteq should I buy? What presets should I choose?

I like warm piano sound, I can upload me playing the piano we have here in the music school. Such a nice instrument ^_^
Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by Jethro
I don't know if you will be able to adjust the velocity setting for Pianoteq on a P515. .

But regardless, you could tweak the velocity settings on the computer side, couldn't you?

As for what constitutes a modeled vs. sampled piano, I don't know... Roland SuperNatural uses samples but adds modeling. From what I've read, Roland V-Piano supposedly uses no samples at all, it's all modeled. And at the other end, a simple piano like an old Yamaha P85 I believe only sampled a single velocity layer, yet had pleasing dynamic expressivity by applying processing/filters with velocity... was that modeling over a sample?


On the first statement, yes that's true. I think he's just going to have to find out if he tweak it to his liking if he goes the Pianoteq direction- which i hope he does.
Originally Posted by pianophil
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by pianophil
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Frédéric, yes, exactly, that’s what I’m referring to. I find it slightly unfair to market the piano as fully modeled whereas in reality it’s only partially modeled (the resonances are modeled), which then holds true for Yamaha and Kawai digital pianos.


I'm sorry to contradict you again Cybergene, but the whole piano is modelled in Pianoteq, not only the resonances.

Philippe, thanks for answering. It’s ultimately a matter of semantics and what one calls “fully modeled”. In my own understanding you have to represent each string and hammer with a differential equation, solve that in real time to produce sound. Apparently that’s impossible with current or even near future hardware.


It may be indeed a matter of semantic, as you seem to understand “fully modeled” as something like "everything is computed in real time using the equations of physics" wheras I understand “fully modeled” as something like "everything is computed using the equations of physics, in several stages including external precomputations, internal precomputations and real time computations".


Thanks for stopping by pianoPhil- and not a moment too soon I must say wink. I am an amateur somewhat "advanced" pianist and recent Pianoteq enthusiast. (I'm sure he can verify I'm not a Pianoteq salesman). Due to my situation I regularly have to go back and forth between a digital piano and an acoustic piano throughout the work week but had been away from the digital piano side of things for over 15 years. Digital pianos had long been a problem instrument for me until someone here recommended Pianoteq a couple of months ago. Thank you for creating such a wonderful piece of software. It is a blessing for intermediate to advanced piano students and one I will whole heartedly recommend to anyone who wants to learn the art of the piano on a digital. Your software is a game changer and what I've been for the past couple of decades. Well done!

BTW- Sorry if because of my enthusiasm for your product that I misrepresented it in any way- that was not my intent , but I think I understand the fundamentals of how your program works. As you can see there has been a lot of misrepresentations about your product on these forums and it is good of you stop by and set the record straight.
Philippe, have you mathematically proven that your way of external precomputation + internal precomputation + real time computation yields exactly the same bit-perfect result as a full computation that’s apparently dependent on what’s being played by the pianist at the moment and cannot be predicted.

In other words you don’t use prerecorded sample attacks or ones that have been prerendered but are nevertheless static? You manage to computate in real time and achieve the same result as those full models that need 24 hours for a second of sound to be computed? If that’s true, you need to state that clearly because your patent is very old and apparently describes an entirely different approach to the sound generation.
I just got the most basic version and chose my piano sounds from there. I think it's called the stage edition, but if you are heavy into tweaking there are more modifiable editions available.
Originally Posted by pianophil
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by pianophil
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Frédéric, yes, exactly, that’s what I’m referring to. I find it slightly unfair to market the piano as fully modeled whereas in reality it’s only partially modeled (the resonances are modeled), which then holds true for Yamaha and Kawai digital pianos.


I'm sorry to contradict you again Cybergene, but the whole piano is modelled in Pianoteq, not only the resonances.

Philippe, thanks for answering. It’s ultimately a matter of semantics and what one calls “fully modeled”. In my own understanding you have to represent each string and hammer with a differential equation, solve that in real time to produce sound. Apparently that’s impossible with current or even near future hardware.


It may be indeed a matter of semantic, as you seem to understand “fully modeled” as something like "everything is computed in real time using the equations of physics" wheras I understand “fully modeled” as something like "everything is computed using the equations of physics, in several stages including external precomputations, internal precomputations and real time computations".

Or else how would anyone explain how this program takes up only 49.5 MB on my computer? Where are the samples? Maybe they're morphing with operating system... laugh
For the sake of argument, 40 MB equates to around 8 minutes of lossless audio. Assuming an attack sound takes around 0.1s (which is the same as the attack samples on 1980-s synths such as Roland D50), that equates to 4800 samples.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Philippe, have you mathematically proven that your way of external precomputation + internal precomputation + real time computation yields exactly the same bit-perfect result as a full computation that’s apparently dependent on what’s being played by the pianist at the moment and cannot be predicted.

In other words you don’t use prerecorded sample attacks or ones that have been prerendered but are nevertheless static? You manage to computate in real time and achieve the same result as those full models that need 24 hours for a second of sound to be computed? If that’s true, you need to state that clearly because your patent is very old and apparently describes an entirely different approach to the sound generation.


The full models that need 24 hours for a second of sound are academic works that are very different from a commercial product, and with different purposes. I see no concrete way to compare them side by side (I don't know any academic work able to render a Chopin Etude for example). But regarding "in other words", indeed we do not use prerecorded sample attacks as mentionned in the patent. And you are right, our patent is old, and, as any of us all here, we had time in 13 years to learn a few things.
Originally Posted by pianophil
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Philippe, have you mathematically proven that your way of external precomputation + internal precomputation + real time computation yields exactly the same bit-perfect result as a full computation that’s apparently dependent on what’s being played by the pianist at the moment and cannot be predicted.

In other words you don’t use prerecorded sample attacks or ones that have been prerendered but are nevertheless static? You manage to computate in real time and achieve the same result as those full models that need 24 hours for a second of sound to be computed? If that’s true, you need to state that clearly because your patent is very old and apparently describes an entirely different approach to the sound generation.


The full models that need 24 hours for a second of sound are academic works that are very different from a commercial product, and with different purposes. I see no concrete way to compare them side by side (I don't know any academic work able to render a Chopin Etude for example). But regarding "in other words", indeed we do not use prerecorded sample attacks as mentionned in the patent. And you are right, our patent is old, and, as any of us all here, we had time in 13 years to learn a few things.

Is it required to update patents?

But I also read this in your patent that one of the purposes of your invention was to make it accessible to the average computer user; "For this reason, the invention aims to provide a solution that is compatible with the computing power and the memory space exhibited by the known computers currently on the market, at a price that is affordable for the general public. In particular, the invention aims to produce sounds in real time on a personal computer that is commercially available at low cost, while showing consideration for the rhythm of a fast musical score."

No supercomputers mentioned here...
Philippe, so let me rephrase my question. Have you found a way to create a 100% physical modeling of a piano that works on current computers and so there’s no need for more powerful computer? Do you think that you’ve reached the utmost realism and there’s nothing left to improve with Pianoteq anymore? It won’t benefit from much more powerful computers in the future and there’s no tiny detail you’ve left un-modeled?
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Philippe, so let me rephrase my question. Have you found a way to create a 100% physical modeling of a piano that works on current computers and so there’s no need for more powerful computer? Do you think that you’ve reached the utmost realism and there’s nothing left to improve with Pianoteq anymore? It won’t benefit from much more powerful computers in the future and there’s no tiny detail you’ve left un-modeled?


I have an answer for that. It's called buying an acoustical piano. I would assume as time goes on they try to improve their product to produce as much realism as possible given today's computer constraints or maybe in Pianoteq's case today's computer advances because of overhead required by Pianoteq as we have all seen is relatively minimal. I'm running it on a 2011 mac mini without a hiccup. But from what I read the piano sounds we hear from from update 6.0 are even better than the 5.0 versions. But neither sampled sounds nor modeled sounds exactly provide the "utmost realism" yet though Pianoteq appears to be quite in the lead in creating a product that more accurately simulates how an acoustical piano actually behaves. Just like every other computer program out there. Give them time I'm sure it will continue to improve. What version of MS Word are you on?
Originally Posted by Jethro

Where did you read that concert pianists can only achieve 10 or so velocities per key?


I didn't read it, I saw it :



Around the 7:50 mark.
Originally Posted by Zaphod
Originally Posted by Jethro

Where did you read that concert pianists can only achieve 10 or so velocities per key?


I didn't read it, I saw it :



Around the 7:50 mark.



And that article I referenced explained what he's having trouble understanding at the 6:04 mark. There are other complex resonances created by the finger hitting the key or the resonances for example created by the key hitting the key bed. The research article I posted debunked this myth. If what he was arguing was the case all the musicians would not have been able to tell the difference between two very similar key strikes. There are more nuances to playing the piano then what the physicists believe.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Philippe, so let me rephrase my question. Have you found a way to create a 100% physical modeling of a piano that works on current computers and so there’s no need for more powerful computer? Do you think that you’ve reached the utmost realism and there’s nothing left to improve with Pianoteq anymore? It won’t benefit from much more powerful computers in the future and there’s no tiny detail you’ve left un-modeled?


Cybergene, when we started this project 16 years ago (3 years before first public release), the most exciting thing was that I knew we had in front of us an infinite path on which to progress. No blocking wall, nothing to stop you improving the sound as your knowledge and know-how increase and the computers get more and more performant. Imagine a world where perfection would be reached: how boring would it be. We are really lucky.
Originally Posted by Zaphod

I didn't read it, I saw it


That might be true for static, one-key press. With crescendo phrases, I'm sure the sound does not jump from one level to the other...it goes up/down in volume continuously.

BTW I love how casually he took out the knife out of his pocket...
Originally Posted by Jethro
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Philippe, so let me rephrase my question. Have you found a way to create a 100% physical modeling of a piano that works on current computers and so there’s no need for more powerful computer? Do you think that you’ve reached the utmost realism and there’s nothing left to improve with Pianoteq anymore? It won’t benefit from much more powerful computers in the future and there’s no tiny detail you’ve left un-modeled?


I have an answer for that. It's called buying an acoustical piano. I would assume as time goes on they try to improve their product to produce as much realism as possible given today's computer constraints or maybe in Pianoteq's case today's computer advances because of overhead required by Pianoteq as we have all seen is relatively minimal. I'm running it on a 2011 mac mini without a hiccup. But from what I read the piano sounds we hear from from update 6.0 are even better than the 5.0 versions. But neither sampled sounds nor modeled sounds exactly provide the "utmost realism" yet though Pianoteq appears to be quite in the lead in creating a product that more accurately simulates how an acoustical piano actually behaves.

Well, I wanted Philippe to answer that because that was a technical question. Yours is a personal (biased) opinion. To answer with the same personal biased opinion, I’ve been fascinated with physical modeling from the very first time Pianoteq was released (13 years ago?) and followed it closely hoping it will ultimately overtake sampled pianos. I’ve been invited to be a Pianoteq beta tester a few years ago and thanks to Philippe I also have Pianoteq Pro. However honestly I almost never used it since I found and still find sample based pianos more playable and more convincing. And I can only keep faith in Pianoteq knowing that they have, say, 80% modeling coverage but still have what to model or improve. Otherwise I’ll be rather disappointed frown Because on paper physical modeling should be better than what it actually is. And again, that’s a personal opinion.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Jethro
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Philippe, so let me rephrase my question. Have you found a way to create a 100% physical modeling of a piano that works on current computers and so there’s no need for more powerful computer? Do you think that you’ve reached the utmost realism and there’s nothing left to improve with Pianoteq anymore? It won’t benefit from much more powerful computers in the future and there’s no tiny detail you’ve left un-modeled?


I have an answer for that. It's called buying an acoustical piano. I would assume as time goes on they try to improve their product to produce as much realism as possible given today's computer constraints or maybe in Pianoteq's case today's computer advances because of overhead required by Pianoteq as we have all seen is relatively minimal. I'm running it on a 2011 mac mini without a hiccup. But from what I read the piano sounds we hear from from update 6.0 are even better than the 5.0 versions. But neither sampled sounds nor modeled sounds exactly provide the "utmost realism" yet though Pianoteq appears to be quite in the lead in creating a product that more accurately simulates how an acoustical piano actually behaves.

Well, I wanted Philippe to answer that because that was a technical question. Yours is a personal (biased) opinion. To answer with the same personal biased opinion, I’ve been fascinated with physical modeling from the very first time Pianoteq was released (13 years ago?) and followed it closely hoping it will ultimately overtake sampled pianos. I’ve been invited to be a Pianoteq beta tester a few years ago and thanks to Philippe I also have Pianoteq Pro. However honestly I almost never used it since I found and still find sample based pianos more playable and more convincing. And I can only keep faith in Pianoteq knowing that they have, say, 80% modeling coverage but still have what to model or improve. Otherwise I’ll be rather disappointed frown Because on paper physical modeling should be better than what it actually is. And again, that’s a personal opinion.

Well, he kinda answered it the same way. Not much technical garble to understand there. And good for you to beta test such a great product. You're entitled to your opinions. In my 40+ years of playing the piano I'm saying this thing is the greatest invention since sliced bread. Let the user trust their ears and senses. If you want, I could take that Pro version off your hands smile
Originally Posted by pianophil
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Philippe, so let me rephrase my question. Have you found a way to create a 100% physical modeling of a piano that works on current computers and so there’s no need for more powerful computer? Do you think that you’ve reached the utmost realism and there’s nothing left to improve with Pianoteq anymore? It won’t benefit from much more powerful computers in the future and there’s no tiny detail you’ve left un-modeled?


Cybergene, when we started this project 16 years ago (3 years before first public release), the most exciting thing was that I knew we had in front of us an infinite path on which to progress. No blocking wall, nothing to stop you improving the sound as your knowledge and know-how increase and the computers get more and more performant. Imagine a world where perfection would be reached: how boring would it be. We are really lucky.

Thanks for this honest answer smile See my answer above. I prefer thinking there’s way to improve Pianoteq rather than seeing only praises from some zealots (apologies for the word but that’s the truth) who’s been saying all is perfect while my ears tell me otherwise. And you know whose I trust more smile
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by pianophil
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Philippe, so let me rephrase my question. Have you found a way to create a 100% physical modeling of a piano that works on current computers and so there’s no need for more powerful computer? Do you think that you’ve reached the utmost realism and there’s nothing left to improve with Pianoteq anymore? It won’t benefit from much more powerful computers in the future and there’s no tiny detail you’ve left un-modeled?


Cybergene, when we started this project 16 years ago (3 years before first public release), the most exciting thing was that I knew we had in front of us an infinite path on which to progress. No blocking wall, nothing to stop you improving the sound as your knowledge and know-how increase and the computers get more and more performant. Imagine a world where perfection would be reached: how boring would it be. We are really lucky.

Thanks for this honest answer smile See my answer above. I prefer thinking there’s way to improve Pianoteq rather than seeing only praises from some zealots (apologies for the word but that’s the truth) who’s been saying all is perfect while my ears tell me otherwise. And you know whose I trust more smile

Ahhhh.. And yet I read post after post that those so called "zealots" saying that Pianoteq was not perfect but only in their opinion the best representation of an acoustical piano in digital form today. Who exactly is the zealot, eh? Personally I came here to help a fellow poster out in his quest for a new digital piano. I recommended Pianoteq and a VPC-1. Yet it seems that every time someone makes such as recommendation it is met with such hostility. What gives?
Originally Posted by Jethro
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Jethro
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Philippe, so let me rephrase my question. Have you found a way to create a 100% physical modeling of a piano that works on current computers and so there’s no need for more powerful computer? Do you think that you’ve reached the utmost realism and there’s nothing left to improve with Pianoteq anymore? It won’t benefit from much more powerful computers in the future and there’s no tiny detail you’ve left un-modeled?


I have an answer for that. It's called buying an acoustical piano. I would assume as time goes on they try to improve their product to produce as much realism as possible given today's computer constraints or maybe in Pianoteq's case today's computer advances because of overhead required by Pianoteq as we have all seen is relatively minimal. I'm running it on a 2011 mac mini without a hiccup. But from what I read the piano sounds we hear from from update 6.0 are even better than the 5.0 versions. But neither sampled sounds nor modeled sounds exactly provide the "utmost realism" yet though Pianoteq appears to be quite in the lead in creating a product that more accurately simulates how an acoustical piano actually behaves.

Well, I wanted Philippe to answer that because that was a technical question. Yours is a personal (biased) opinion. To answer with the same personal biased opinion, I’ve been fascinated with physical modeling from the very first time Pianoteq was released (13 years ago?) and followed it closely hoping it will ultimately overtake sampled pianos. I’ve been invited to be a Pianoteq beta tester a few years ago and thanks to Philippe I also have Pianoteq Pro. However honestly I almost never used it since I found and still find sample based pianos more playable and more convincing. And I can only keep faith in Pianoteq knowing that they have, say, 80% modeling coverage but still have what to model or improve. Otherwise I’ll be rather disappointed frown Because on paper physical modeling should be better than what it actually is. And again, that’s a personal opinion.

Well, he kinda answered it the same way. Not much technical garble to understand there. And good for you to beta test such a great product. You're entitled to your opinions. In my 40+ years of playing the piano I'm saying this thing is the greatest invention since sliced bread. Let the user trust their ears and senses. If you want, I could take that Pro version off your hands smile

No, he answered in entirely different way. It’s good thing you’re not trying to sell me Pianoteq because I wouldn’t buy it laugh Nothing personal.
I'm sure many people would buy Pianoteq with all your "positive" feedback on the product eh? But then again, maybe I'm just talking to a radio.
Originally Posted by Jethro
I'm sure many people would buy Pianoteq with all "positive" feedback on the product.

Yes but not those who heard your pitch. You’re being too persuasive with no facts, just bolstering such as how great pianist you are and people need to just trust you. That’s a strategy working for selling ball pens on the street. I hope you’ll take this as a well wishing critique and not as an insult.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Jethro
I'm sure many people would buy Pianoteq with all "positive" feedback on the product.

Yes but not those who heard your pitch. You’re being too persuasive with no facts, just bolstering such as how great pianist you are and people need to just trust you. That’s a strategy working for selling ball pens on the street. I hope you’ll take this as a well wishing critique and not as an insult.

Or maybe you're just being a wee bit too sensitive. Like I said, never wished anyone ill will here. You really need to back off some of the rants and let people help each out without unsolicited negative comments. I came here for help 2 months ago in my purchase of a digital piano. So many here were helpful and I'm grateful for it. I just wanted to return the favor. No bad intentions here. And as for "great pianist I am" - yeah I wish. I'm working on it.

Also I don't think the inventor of Pianoteq would have entered this conversation if a certain person had his "facts" straight.
Originally Posted by Jethro
Is it required to update patents?


Patents doesn’t have to be updated. The Modartt patent doesn’t prevent Modartt to do something a little different, but only prevent someone else to do something similar.

Like any patent, it is divided in claims, from general claims to more and more precise claims. If some precise claims doesn’t apply anymore to the design of Pianoteq, a concurrent piano software like Pianoteq will be still prevented because of more general claims.

Modartt can also submit a new patent, but only new claims will be protected. For exemple, the 2006 patent describe a calculus of a sum of exp(-t/tn).sin(wn.t). This is protected for 20 years, but can’t be protected again.

The other way is to keep secret the “things Modartt has learnt since 2006”... and hope this will not be learnt by concurrent piano software designers.
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Originally Posted by Jethro
Is it required to update patents?


Patents doesn’t have to be updated. The Modartt patent doesn’t prevent Modartt to do something a little different, but only prevent someone else to do something similar.

Like any patent, it is divided in claims, from general claims to more and more precise claims. If some precise claims doesn’t apply anymore to the design of Pianoteq, a concurrent piano software like Pianoteq will be still prevented because of more general claims.

Modartt can also submit a new patent, but only new claims will be protected. For exemple, the 2006 patent describe a calculus if a sum of exp(-t/tn).sin(wn.t). This is protected for 20 years, but can’t be protected again.

The other way is to keep secret the “things Modartt has learnt since 2006”... and hope this will not be learnt by concurrent piano software designers.

I see. Thanks.
You joined the forum a few months ago having no experience with digital pianos or software. Then you admitted of deciding on VPC1 and Pianoteq just because you read about that on the Internet and you started praising that combination before you even received your VPC1. And you admitted that’s a common thing in your decision making in life. Also, you dismissed a sample based piano on playing it through spring loaded MIDI action by playing Happy Birthday, that were your words.

And now you’re “helping” people. I mean, no disrespect, but that’s wrong. That’s why I find it useful to bring balance by pushing the scales to the other side.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
You joined the forum a few months ago having no experience with digital pianos or software. Then you admitted of deciding on VPC1 and Pianoteq just because you read about that on the Internet and you started praising that combination before you even received your VPC1. And you admitted that’s a common thing in your decision making in life. Also, you dismissed a sample based piano on playing it through spring loaded MIDI action by playing Happy Birthday, that were your words.

And now you’re “helping” people. I mean, no disrespect, but that’s wrong. That’s why I find it useful to bring balance by pushing the scales to the other side.


And if you read the rest of my posts you would see I have more than 30 years experience with MIDI including working in a professional studio until I left and went back to strictly acoustic because of my disgust at that time with the state of the digital piano. But why let facts get in the way eh?

And you know what there are people out their who conceive of things without ever having had their hands on it apriori. I built a medical laboratory for a major university that way. I built my medical practice that way. And guess what, I bet Philip built Pianoteq that way. Amazing thing what our brains can do.
Pianoteq will soon render acoustic pianos obsolete. That’s how good it is.
And yes, I agree with Jethro: ‘Pianoteq is the best thing since sliced bread.’
It’s only a matter of time for a Nobel Prize to grace its creators.
I’m not a zealot, but I do find myself thanking God (Pianoteq) for all it gives me everyday.

I stand in front of thee, in awe of thee, and humbled by thee, Pianoteq!

I’m not a zealot (whatever the heck that means). laugh
Yeah, you’re great, Jethro! I guess that’s a good argument.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Yeah, you’re great, Jethro! I guess that’s a good argument.

Whatever......
Originally Posted by CyberGene
For the sake of argument, 40 MB equates to around 8 minutes of lossless audio.

And there are plenty of fully implemented sampled pianos that consist of far less than 40 mb of data. The once lauded (and pretty advanced for its time) Kurzweil Triple Strike was a whopping 12 mb. Other pianos have been even less than that. (The Korg M1 had 4 mb of samples, not for its piano, but for all its sounds combined!)

Originally Posted by Jethro
Is it required to update patents?

No, a patent is a patent, it never changes, you can't retroactively change what it is you're protecting from infringement. If you develop something new that you believe is also patentable, you can apply for a separate patent on that new thing. (That new thing can be based on one or your earlier patents... but it is still separate.)

Originally Posted by Zaphod
Originally Posted by Jethro
Where did you read that concert pianists can only achieve 10 or so velocities per key?
I didn't read it, I saw it : ... Around the 7:50 mark.

That looks pretty silly to me. It just shows that anyone can put anything on youtube. ;-) First, just because he can't create a level between 5 and 6 (or whatever), that doesn't mean no one could. Moreover, I bet he actually could... if he did a 20 note crescendo from quietest to loudest, maybe not each of the twenty would be terribly different from its adjacent strikes, but I bet he would hit additional velocities between the ones he struck there. And that's the bigger point. There are only 8-10 possible velocities? Okay, try MIDI-mapping your DP so that strikes 1-13 all map to velocity 7, 13-24 all map to velocity 19, 25-37 all map to 31, and so forth, or whatever mapping you like that reduces all your velocity inputs to only one of eight-to-ten outputs, and see how natural that is to play and how smooth your gradual crescendos are... or conversely, watch what happens when you try not to change a repeated note, and a small variation suddenly makes the note very noticeably louder or softer...

Short version: If you can hear a difference between two adjacent values, you don't have enough values.
Guys, are we still having a little fun here?

What matters is that we’re all inspired by the digital realm in a way that was not possible before. We are practicing and getting better everyday without the need for an ‘acoustical’.

Namaste!
Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by CyberGene
For the sake of argument, 40 MB equates to around 8 minutes of lossless audio.

And there are plenty of fully implemented sampled pianos that consist of far less than 40 mb of data. The once lauded (and pretty advanced for its time) Kurzweil Triple Strike was a whopping 12 mb. Other pianos have been even less than that. (The Korg M1 had 4 mb of samples, not for its piano, but for all its sounds combined!)

Originally Posted by Jethro
Is it required to update patents?

No, a patent is a patent, it never changes, you can't retroactively change what it is you're protecting from infringement. If you develop something new that you believe is also patentable, you can apply for a separate patent on that new thing. (That new thing can be based on one or your earlier patents... but it is still separate.)

Originally Posted by Zaphod
Originally Posted by Jethro
Where did you read that concert pianists can only achieve 10 or so velocities per key?
I didn't read it, I saw it : ... Around the 7:50 mark.

That looks pretty silly to me. It just shows that anyone can put anything on youtube. ;-) First, just because he can't create a level between 5 and 6 (or whatever), that doesn't mean no one could. Moreover, I bet he actually could... if he did a 20 note crescendo from quietest to loudest, maybe not each of the twenty would be terribly different from its adjacent strikes, but I bet he would hit additional velocities between the ones he struck there. And that's the bigger point. There are only 8-10 possible velocities? Okay, try MIDI-mapping your DP so that strikes 1-13 all map to velocity 7, 13-24 all map to velocity 19, 25-37 all map to 31, and so forth, or whatever mapping you like that reduces all your velocity inputs to only one of eight-to-ten outputs, and see how natural that is to play and how smooth your gradual crescendos are... or conversely, watch what happens when you try not to change a repeated note, and a small variation suddenly makes the note very noticeably louder or softer...

Short version: If you can hear a difference between two adjacent values, you don't have enough values.


I see regarding patents. As for the rest of your post I agree. Thanks.
Originally Posted by Pete14
Guys, are we still having a little fun here?

What matters is that we’re all inspired by the digital realm in a way that was not possible before. We are practicing and getting better everyday without the need for an ‘acoustical’.

Namaste!




Wait a minute! That's not what I'm saying smile

You absolutely owe it to yourself to eventually advance to an acoustical. That my friend, is still the ideal!
Since when did we start calling them pianos ‘acoustical’ (I’m looking at you, Tyrone). wink
And as peace falls over the land once more, it is undoubtedly the perfect time to predict that the next ten years of developments will see great improvements for piano modelling, and very little for piano sampling.

Now, that could not possibly aggravate anything. wink
Originally Posted by Pete14
Since when did we start calling them pianos ‘acoustical’ (I’m looking at you, Tyrone). wink

Tyrone I am sure is enjoying this conversation but from a distance. Smart. Very smart.
Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
And as peace falls over the land once more, it is undoubtedly the perfect time to predict that the next ten years of developments will see great improvements for piano modelling, and very little for piano sampling.


We can predict the nowadays state of art sampling to be more widespread. Some synthesizer have unlooped samples (Krome ?). We may have digital pianos with such samples. But who knows when this will happen.

I guess that with a 100 levels VST (VSL Vienna Imperial), we are nearly at a maximum. (VSL Steinway and CFX have no such specifications published).
Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
And as peace falls over the land once more, it is undoubtedly the perfect time to predict that the next ten years of developments will see great improvements for piano modelling, and very little for piano sampling.

Now, that could not possibly aggravate anything. wink

LOL. Is this really the right time?
There’s currently no sample based software that uses modeled resonances. They either use damper down samples or convolution reverb. But there’s no modeled resonance similar to Yamaha VRM and Kawai’s whatever it’s called. How about having huge sampled libraries with VRM. That’s where they can go, the hybrid approach. I even suggested that to Philippe in one of our email conversations: collaborate with Garritan, VSL, etc to provide just the resonance modeling to the great samples. It would be the best of all worlds. Not sure Pianoteq are interested though. At least for now.
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
And as peace falls over the land once more, it is undoubtedly the perfect time to predict that the next ten years of developments will see great improvements for piano modelling, and very little for piano sampling.


We can predict the nowadays state of art sampling to be more widespread. Some synthesizer have unlooped samples (Krome ?). We may have digital pianos with such samples. But who knows when this will happen.

I guess that with a 100 levels VST (VSL Vienna Imperial), we are nearly at a maximum. (VSL Steinway and CFX have no such specifications published).

and it's only 500 GB of data.
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
For exemple, the 2006 patent describe a calculus of a sum of exp(-t/tn).sin(wn.t). This is protected for 20 years, but can’t be protected again.

Math isn't protected by patents and never was. Only technical inventions are.

Patents were originally intended to allow disclosure of technical inventions for research purposes - primarily to allow others copying and building new inventions on it - while commercial exploitation is protected for a limited time.

Obviously most patents submitted nowadays are entirely useless for that purpose.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
There’s currently no sample based software that uses modeled resonances. They either use damper down samples or convolution reverb. But there’s no modeled resonance similar to Yamaha VRM and Kawai’s whatever it’s called.

Brute-force sampling doesn't make a good piano. Pure modeling doesn't as well. Software proudly started a "war" against specialized synth hardware and simply lost it. The rest is denial and how to deal with it. wink
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
For exemple, the 2006 patent describe a calculus of a sum of exp(-t/tn).sin(wn.t). This is protected for 20 years, but can’t be protected again.

Math isn't protected by patents and never was. Only technical inventions are.

Patents were originally intended to allow disclosure of technical inventions for research purposes - primarily to allow others copying and building new inventions on it - while commercial exploitation is protected for a limited time.

Obviously most patents submitted nowadays are entirely useless for that purpose.


Lol yeah, the idea of patenting Fourier series made me giggle. What's next? Are we going to patent derivatives and integrals? To heck with Newton and Leibniz! laugh
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
For exemple, the 2006 patent describe a calculus of a sum of exp(-t/tn).sin(wn.t). This is protected for 20 years, but can’t be protected again.

Math isn't protected by patents and never was. Only technical inventions are.

Patents were originally intended to allow disclosure of technical inventions for research purposes - primarily to allow others copying and building new inventions on it - while commercial exploitation is protected for a limited time.

Obviously most patents submitted nowadays are entirely useless for that purpose.


Any new applied algorithm can be patented. We had GIF compression, RSA cypher algorithm, MP3 compression for example. Reyburn CyberTuner did patent its algorithms (one of them is the decomposition of the signal with digital bandpass filters : one per partials, mesuring the period of each of them with zero detection, full period count, 1/x in order to get the frequency).

It doesn’t matter that the arithmetics used (Z/nZ group for RSA...) were already known, what matter is that the formula is new.


As I have said, a patent is decomposed in claims, some quite general and some more precise. Perhaps general claims could be considered too obvious or already implemented elsewhere then invalid. In such case, other more precise claims can still be used to protect the invention. Then the sum of decaying sinus may not be the good example (too obvious ?), but the decomposition of “in factory” / other non real time / real time calculus may be better.

Read https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_patent
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Some synthesizer have unlooped samples (Krome ?).

Yes, Korg has it on Krome and also Kronos, Grandstage, and Vox Continental (Vox is part of Korg). Another is the Kurzweil Forte.
Originally Posted by Frédéric L

Any new applied algorithm can be patented.

Or not. Depends on who you ask.
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Frédéric L

Any new applied algorithm can be patented.

Or not. Depends on who you ask.

I have added the software patent link https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_patent in my answer. There is the restriction of a “technical effect” (applied in my words). I suppose that since algorithm ARE patented, they CAN be.

Afterwards, is the patent consider valid and prevent other people to do the same. I suppose that if software patent weren’t valid, we won’t have so numerous software patent (why pay to register an invalid patent), and software patent troll would not be so dangerous.
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
I suppose that if software patent weren’t valid, we won’t have so numerous software patent (why pay to register an invalid patent)

Why break the speed limit? laugh
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Lol yeah, the idea of patenting Fourier series made me giggle. What's next?

About says it all. Does the phrase "What planet" have any significance? If so, what?
Originally Posted by dire tonic
Originally Posted by johnstaf

Pianoteq can't distinguish between the different types of touch discussed in the article. It doesn't know if you slam it into the keybed or not. It gets a note-on message and a velocity irrespective of how the note is played.

Unless you believe it's possible to produce fff and beyond without slam (and by the same token, believe it's possible to simultaneously produce ppp and below while also slamming), you'd surely have to accept that slamming and velocity are highly correlated? i.e. Pianoteq distinguishes by virtue of key velocity.

Both modelled and sampled approaches can reproduce slamming if developers take the trouble to model/record appropriately.


I was referring to an article about pianists being able to distinguish between notes of a similar velocity but played differently, such as hitting the keybed.
Suprised I haven't been panned, every right to have been...apology required. Sorry for my last post. Driven by nothing more than Acolyte's--impulse.
I forgot a fundamental--plenty of other threads on this board, that don't contain this stuff! Don't need to feel excluded, in a particular one.
blush blush
Back to the original poster.

Chopin Acolyte here is the thread that I started in my search for a digital in the $2500 and under range. It took a lot of turns but the P515 was on my shortlist but once I tried the VPC-1's action I knew it would suffice and it was at the right price point for me. Never got a chance to try the P515 but give it a go for yourself, but since you are looking in the same price range as I and was already considering the VPC-1 and Pianoteq I thought I would chime in because that is the exact set-up I have.

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2841563/1.html

You could see I spent money on both the Ravenscroft app AND software before settling with Pianoteq as my go to software. (I gave both samples and modeled software equal chance to impress me). Seems like there were much of the same arguments on your thread as there were on mine.
Originally Posted by Jethro
Back to the original poster.

Chopin Acolyte here is the thread that I started in my search for a digital in the $2500 and under range. It took a lot of turns but the P515 was on my shortlist but once I tried the VPC-1's action I knew it would suffice and it was at the right price point for me. Never got a chance to try the P515 but give it a go for yourself, but since you are looking in the same price range as I and was already considering the VPC-1 and Pianoteq I thought I would chime in because that is the exact set-up I have.

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2841563/1.html

You could see I spent money on both the Ravenscroft app AND software before settling with Pianoteq as my go to software. (I gave both samples and modeled software equal chance to impress me). Seems like there were much of the same arguments on your thread as there were on mine.


What I really pity right now is, that if I won't like the P-515's action, there won't be enough time to return it and get the money back to buy VPC-1, which is now available for a very good price, however the sale ends on 22nd. smirk AAAAAAAAA
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte

What I really pity right now is, that if I won't like the P-515's action, there won't be enough time to return it and get the money back to buy VPC-1, which is now available for a very good price, however the sale ends on 22nd. smirk AAAAAAAAA

https://tamebay.com/2019/06/paradox-of-choice-effect-combat-shoppers-indecision.html
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte

What I really pity right now is, that if I won't like the P-515's action, there won't be enough time to return it and get the money back to buy VPC-1, which is now available for a very good price, however the sale ends on 22nd. smirk AAAAAAAAA

https://tamebay.com/2019/06/paradox-of-choice-effect-combat-shoppers-indecision.html


Damn, I opened the page in incognito mode and it blew my mind...the discount doesn't exist without they knowing it's me who's opening it shocked does it even exist, objectively? I mean, are things, only I see, true?
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Originally Posted by Jethro
Back to the original poster.

Chopin Acolyte here is the thread that I started in my search for a digital in the $2500 and under range. It took a lot of turns but the P515 was on my shortlist but once I tried the VPC-1's action I knew it would suffice and it was at the right price point for me. Never got a chance to try the P515 but give it a go for yourself, but since you are looking in the same price range as I and was already considering the VPC-1 and Pianoteq I thought I would chime in because that is the exact set-up I have.

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2841563/1.html

You could see I spent money on both the Ravenscroft app AND software before settling with Pianoteq as my go to software. (I gave both samples and modeled software equal chance to impress me). Seems like there were much of the same arguments on your thread as there were on mine.


What I really pity right now is, that if I won't like the P-515's action, there won't be enough time to return it and get the money back to buy VPC-1, which is now available for a very good price, however the sale ends on 22nd. smirk AAAAAAAAA

Well since the VPC-1 is on sale now why don't you try that first and put a hold on the P515 for now? Or just buy both of them now and return the one you don't like.

Here's a thread from someone who tried the VPC-1 and returned it. I felt kind of bad because he was following my thread that I referred to. I think he got overwhelmed by the tinkering and possibilities with the VPC-1 and the distraction from just sitting down and playing. My thought on that is that it will only be a distraction if you let it. Just go with Pianoteq or any VST you may like and be done with it. GAS is always around the corner ready to enter your life if you let it. http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2854194/5.html

With all the debate that you read from this thread I still think it is wise for you to at very least try the VPC-1 with Pianoteq. I am in complete enjoyment of the set-up and I practice 2-3 hours a day on it when I am not in front of my acoustic. I did receive my Shigeru Kawai SK2 two days ago and I am in piano heaven. What touch, what tone. Oh so beautiful!
Originally Posted by Jethro

Well since the VPC-1 is on sale now why don't you try that first and put a hold on the P515 for now? Or just buy both of them now and return the one you don't like.

Here's a thread from someone who tried the VPC-1 and returned it. I felt kind of bad because he was following my thread that I referred to. I think he got overwhelmed by the tinkering and possibilities with the VPC-1 and the distraction from just sitting down and playing. My thought on that is that it will only be a distraction if you let it. Just go with Pianoteq or any VST you may like and be done with it. GAS is always around the corner ready to enter your life if you let it. http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2854194/5.html

With all the debate that you read from this thread I still think it is wise for you to at very least try the VPC-1 with Pianoteq. I am in complete enjoyment of the set-up and I practice 2-3 hours a day on it when I am not in front of my acoustic. I did receive my Shigeru Kawai SK2 two days ago and I am in piano heaven. What touch, what tone. Oh so beautiful!


Well, first, I have to wait for P-515. I can't afford to buy both laugh
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Originally Posted by Jethro

Well since the VPC-1 is on sale now why don't you try that first and put a hold on the P515 for now? Or just buy both of them now and return the one you don't like.

Here's a thread from someone who tried the VPC-1 and returned it. I felt kind of bad because he was following my thread that I referred to. I think he got overwhelmed by the tinkering and possibilities with the VPC-1 and the distraction from just sitting down and playing. My thought on that is that it will only be a distraction if you let it. Just go with Pianoteq or any VST you may like and be done with it. GAS is always around the corner ready to enter your life if you let it. http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2854194/5.html

With all the debate that you read from this thread I still think it is wise for you to at very least try the VPC-1 with Pianoteq. I am in complete enjoyment of the set-up and I practice 2-3 hours a day on it when I am not in front of my acoustic. I did receive my Shigeru Kawai SK2 two days ago and I am in piano heaven. What touch, what tone. Oh so beautiful!


Well, first, I have to wait for P-515. I can't afford to buy both laugh

You can't put them both on credit?

By the way where is the sale going on with the VPC-1?
Originally Posted by Jethro

You can't put them both on credit?

By the way where is the sale going on with the VPC-1?


International here.

The "sale" (that only I see) "ends" on June 22nd. Quotes because none of it exists in incognito mode, it's obviously customized, but apparently, true. I even went so far as to almost hit the "place the order" button and the price was $1664.10, free shipping.
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Originally Posted by Jethro

You can't put them both on credit?

By the way where is the sale going on with the VPC-1?


International here.

The "sale" (that only I see) "ends" on June 22nd. Quotes because none of it exists in incognito mode, it's obviously customized, but apparently, true. I even went so far as to almost hit the "place the order" button and the price was $1664.10, free shipping.

Dang, that's a really good price for a VPC-1. I know what I would be doing right now if I were you wink But I'm not you so hurry up and make your decision already! I'm sure if you make the wrong decision the regret will only sting whenever you play the piano. So no worries.
Wow this thread is starting to give me the creeps....

Hiya, pianist! Aren't you gonna say hello?
[pianist shakes his head]

Ohhh. Come on, bucko. Don't you want a... VPC-1?

Ohhh... You want it, don't you? Oh, of course you do... and there's VSTs, and Pianoteq, and all sorts of surprises down here... and VPC-1 pianos too... All colors.


smile
Originally Posted by jamiecw
Wow this thread is starting to give me the creeps....

Hiya, pianist! Aren't you gonna say hello?
[pianist shakes his head]

Ohhh. Come on, bucko. Don't you want a... VPC-1?

Ohhh... You want it, don't you? Oh, of course you do... and there's VSTs, and Pianoteq, and all sorts of surprises down here... and VPC-1 pianos too... All colors.


smile


I'm not a native English monitor, so I don't quite understand the vibe of this...what are you trying to say? :-D
It is kind of creepy here. I've only been here about 2 or 3 months and I realized you have to be careful about which pianos you like or the software you prefer because pretty soon some secret sect descends upon you like David Koresh and the Branch Davidians only this one is some kind of weirdo pro-sample sect heck bent on brainwashing your choices. "Repent heathen! Thou shalt not speak the name Pianoteq or VPC-1 here!" mad

In 2 months I've somehow managed to label myself the "creature".
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Originally Posted by jamiecw
Wow this thread is starting to give me the creeps....

Hiya, pianist! Aren't you gonna say hello?
[pianist shakes his head]

Ohhh. Come on, bucko. Don't you want a... VPC-1?

Ohhh... You want it, don't you? Oh, of course you do... and there's VSTs, and Pianoteq, and all sorts of surprises down here... and VPC-1 pianos too... All colors.


smile


I'm not a native English monitor, so I don't quite understand the vibe of this...what are you trying to say? :-D

Don't worry about him, we can meet in a back alley somewhere and discuss your choices in private. cool
Originally Posted by Jethro

Don't worry about him, we can meet in a back alley somewhere and discuss your choices in private. cool


Whoah there. My mommy always told me not to meet strangers in back alleys and definitely not to take candy from them. grin
Speaking of brain washing there’s been only one guy here who couldn’t stop recommending one and only one controller and one and only one software smile He even tries to persuade the OP to return his not yet delivered P515. And while that thread seemed to finally go into peace, you couldn’t help it Jethro but keep spinning that same old record you’ve been spinning. Now, let’s talk about sects and brain washing smile
Go to your happy place Jethro. Go to your happy place......
The 515 is arriving on Wednesday, I'll definitely post here my impression of it once I try.
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
The 515 is arriving on Wednesday, I'll definitely post here my impression of it once I try.

I hope you do like it. If it suits your needs totally enjoy it my friend. Like I said I was considering that DP as well. Don't worry too much about the VPC-1. It really is not for everyone but I like it. Like I said, I only chimed in because in your OP you said you really liked the VPC-1's action and you were considering the exact set-up I already have so I thought I would share my thoughts. Again, your choice is all that matters in this. Good luck!
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
The 515 is arriving on Wednesday, I'll definitely post here my impression of it once I try.

And you'll still have 3 days to grab that VPC1!
@Chopin Acolyte: Don't sweat!

That P515 is said to have the same action as the CLP645. I've tried the latter. It's marvelous.
And you get a whole piano, not just the keyboard.
And you can still use it to drive virtual instruments, just like the VPC.

Don't sweat it! Enjoy it!
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
The 515 is arriving on Wednesday, I'll definitely post here my impression of it once I try.
Yep, the P515 can be used with Pianoteq if you like. It has an audio interface too which the VPC1 doesn’t. As to the “dedicated Pianoteq touch curve” that’s a nonsense. Every Pianoteq model has slightly different touch response as I have experienced it. There’s no standardization regarding touch response and that touch curve in the VPC1 curve was created 3-4 years ago when it was released so it was created for the model at the time. You can create your own touch curve in Pianoteq or use curves that are posted on the Pianoteq forum by users of various pianos. At least in that regards Pianoteq is well ahead of any other piano VST.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Yep, the P515 can be used with Pianoteq if you like. It has an audio interface too which the VPC1 doesn’t. As to the “dedicated Pianoteq touch curve” that’s a nonsense. Every Pianoteq model has slightly different touch response as I have experienced it. There’s no standardization regarding touch response and that touch curve in the VPC1 curve was created 3-4 years ago when it was released so it was created for the model at the time. You can create your own touch curve in Pianoteq or use curves that are posted on the Pianoteq forum by users of various pianos. At least in that regards Pianoteq is well ahead of any other piano VST.


That sounds good! Though I'm very curious about the Bosendorfer sample the P-515 comes with ^^ can't wait.
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
That P515 is said to have the same action as the CLP645. I've tried the latter. It's marvelous.

From my own headphones showroom testing of the CLP-645 I can tell that both action and tone generator are identical to the P-515. Obviously amplification and speakers aren't the same for a slab, but they provide more than enough punch for my needs.

It comes at a cost: making it a pretty heavy beast unlike lightweight previous entries in Yamaha's P series. Nothing special though, its competitors Kawai ES8 and Roland FP-90 are in the same weight class. And the Kawai VPC1 is much heavier.
Originally Posted by JoeT

From my own headphones showroom testing of the CLP-645 I can tell that both action and tone generator are identical to the P-515. Obviously amplification and speakers aren't the same for a slab, but they provide more than enough punch for my needs.

It comes at a cost: making it a pretty heavy beast unlike lightweight previous entries in Yamaha's P series. Nothing special though, its competitors Kawai ES8 and Roland FP-90 are in the same weight class. And the Kawai VPC1 is much heavier.


I might be wrong but IMHO the heavier the better (less wobble)...I have no intention to gig, just home practice.
The P515 is a good piano but I've been reading reports of it having issues when playing with VSTs in general in fact the gentleman who suggested in this thread said with Pianoteq the notes were all over the place or something to that effect. Just make sure you try it WITH Pianoteq if you wish go in that direction. Do a google search also P515 and Pianoteq or VPC-1 and Pianoteq for that matter. The more information you get the better.

Here's one opposing thread regarding the P515 but in general most find the piano acceptable for the money they paid for it. http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2808499/1.html

Here's a positive one from an owner: http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2775221/yamaha-p515-first-impression.html

Here's a negative post: http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2793530/yamaha-p-515-sound-problem.html

Here's a positive post https://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/a9rh3j/just_got_my_yamaha_p515/

And here's another one, notice how someone mentions if using Pianoteq why doesn't one just buy the VPC-1 http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...this-sound-from-the-speakers-normal.html

More issues with the sound: https://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/awd7w7/p515_audio_problem_with_headphones/

Please also spend the time to look at the negative things about the VPC 1 including the poor quality pedals that affected the earlier models and some people find the action kind of heavy.

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2695555/5.html Here's one.

and another one https://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopic.php?id=3207
One on the pedal issues on the VPC-1 but Kawai James said recent shipments in the past few years have rectified quality control issues with the Fatar pedals http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2542895/Re:_VPC1_F30_Pedal_functioning.html
Originally Posted by jamiecw
Wow this thread is starting to give me the creeps....

Hiya, pianist! Aren't you gonna say hello?
[pianist shakes his head]

Ohhh. Come on, bucko. Don't you want a... VPC-1?

Ohhh... You want it, don't you? Oh, of course you do... and there's VSTs, and Pianoteq, and all sorts of surprises down here... and VPC-1 pianos too... All colors.


smile


Brexit's drove me mad, too . . .
Brexit? Oh--a quick pretext for some more political madness...the most BENT politician in the country is about become its leader! Now that's enough to drive anyone mad...
Except maybe his (just as BENT) cronies. [/illegal]
Originally Posted by Jethro
The P515 is a good piano but I've been reading reports of it having issues when playing with VSTs in general in fact the gentleman who suggested in this thread said with Pianoteq the notes were all over the place or something to that effect.

The built-in touch curves fit the built-in sounds, which are far superior to Pianoteq.

Quote
Here's one opposing thread regarding the P515 but in general most find the piano acceptable for the money they paid for it.


I'm happy with it overall - the headphone amplifier could use a little more punch. Took me a while to get used to the "heavy" action, but after a few weeks it turned out being perfect and my practice results were reproduceable on some semi-concert grand. I have nothing more to ask for at that price level.
Originally Posted by thickfingers
Brexit? Oh--a quick pretext for some more political madness...the most BENT politician in the country is about become its leader! Now that's enough to drive anyone mad...
Except maybe his (just as BENT) cronies. [/illegal]

Lovely. It seems it is OK to talk politics here, as long as it isn't American politics or involve people with names that begin with 'T' or their family members. :rolleyes:
"T" ? As in Teddy Roosevelt? Or Thomas Jefferson? Or Thom Tillis? I really don't know who you mean. smile
Well, I for one am a sucker for political debates. But I have to admit that in all my internet experience, politics is the second most divisive topic ever - second only to Pianoteq.
Why doesn't that rolleyes smiley work? Been looking for one of those. I need it. :rolleyes:
Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
Well, I for one am a sucker for political debates. But I have to admit that in all my internet experience, politics is the second most divisive topic ever - second only to Pianoteq.

Debates? Can't argue with them--something wrong with their brains. You just [b]can't stop them changing the subject or foisting subject-change smokescreen rubbish on top of your lucid, undeniable argument. Can't tell 'em. But, can't stop trying to tell 'em.
Let's merge the two topics (Pianoteq and politics) and draw some conclusions. Pianoteq guys are the marxists/communists of the VST-s, there's no pluralism allowed and any opinion that questions the greatness of the party would be ruthlessly crushed laugh As funny as that may sound, I've actually started receiving abuse on YouTube from a triggered anonymous Pianoteq leftist.
And rightly so. And that's "Party" if you don't mind--"parties" are somewhere to go for a kneesup.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Let's merge the two topics (Pianoteq and politics) and draw some conclusions. Pianoteq guys are the marxists/communists of the VST-s, there's no pluralism allowed and any opinion that questions the greatness of the party would be ruthlessly crushed laugh

This is only right as Pianoteq is the solution to world hunger, climate change, poverty, social justice, and a myriad of other ills.

Pianoteq Users of the World, Unite!

EDIT: Oops... that doesn't really include me, any more, does it? blush I've used Pianoteq about 10 mins total in the 25 days since I got my N1X, mostly for just testing! blush

Originally Posted by CyberGene
As funny as that may sound, I've actually started receiving abuse on YouTube from a triggered anonymous Pianoteq leftist.

Some people just can't handle other people's (incorrect) opinions and as a consequence act out. Be careful not to spoil your child! wink
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Pianoteq guys are the marxists/communists of the VST-s, there's no pluralism allowed and any opinion that questions the greatness of the party would be ruthlessly crushed laugh


No, the Pianoteq creators would clearly be some form of libertarians, since they are all about safeguarding the freedom to change anything about the sound using a huge array of parameters. Opposed to this would be the nanny-state sample libraries, who clearly think that having the freedom to change the sound is not what people need, because everyone really need only the same old and proven sound that everyone else is also getting. smile
Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Pianoteq guys are the marxists/communists of the VST-s, there's no pluralism allowed and any opinion that questions the greatness of the party would be ruthlessly crushed laugh


No, the Pianoteq creators would ...

No, no, no! I was not talking about the creators, they are cool guys, I've communicated with Philippe many times, he's probably even nicer than Kawai James who's already inhumanely nice laugh I meant the Pianoteq aficionados/zealots/partisans... They are ready to blow off people for not accepting Pianoteq as the only solution to hunger and poverty wink
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Pianoteq guys are the marxists/communists of the VST-s, there's no pluralism allowed and any opinion that questions the greatness of the party would be ruthlessly crushed laugh


No, the Pianoteq creators would ...

No, no, no! I was not talking about the creators, they are cool guys, I've communicated with Philippe many times, he's probably even nicer than Kawai James who's already inhumanely nice laugh I meant the Pianoteq aficionados/zealots/partisans... They are ready to blow off people for not accepting Pianoteq as the only solution to hunger and poverty wink


Oh, yeah, I get it now! You were referring to what you possibly perceive as PJW's (Pianoteq Justice Warriors). smile
Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Pianoteq guys are the marxists/communists of the VST-s, there's no pluralism allowed and any opinion that questions the greatness of the party would be ruthlessly crushed laugh


No, the Pianoteq creators would ...

No, no, no! I was not talking about the creators, they are cool guys, I've communicated with Philippe many times, he's probably even nicer than Kawai James who's already inhumanely nice laugh I meant the Pianoteq aficionados/zealots/partisans... They are ready to blow off people for not accepting Pianoteq as the only solution to hunger and poverty wink


Oh, yeah, I get it now! You were referring to what you possibly perceive as PJW's (Pianoteq Justice Warriors). smile

Haha, thanks, was wondering in what way to use the "SJW" term and PJW is the proper analogy indeed laugh
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Jethro
The P515 is a good piano but I've been reading reports of it having issues when playing with VSTs in general in fact the gentleman who suggested in this thread said with Pianoteq the notes were all over the place or something to that effect.

The built-in touch curves fit the built-in sounds, which are far superior to Pianoteq.

Quote
Here's one opposing thread regarding the P515 but in general most find the piano acceptable for the money they paid for it.


I'm happy with it overall - the headphone amplifier could use a little more punch. Took me a while to get used to the "heavy" action, but after a few weeks it turned out being perfect and my practice results were reproduceable on some semi-concert grand. I have nothing more to ask for at that price level.

That's all good.
Just a reminder guys, the more you rant on forums online, the less time you spend practicing.
How does one play this piece without a single mistake.



She makes it look so easy frown
Originally Posted by Jethro
How does one play this piece without a single mistake.

...

She makes it look so easy frown


By practicing 40hrs/day one makes pieces look easy.

#lingling40hrs
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Originally Posted by Jethro
How does one play this piece without a single mistake.

...

She makes it look so easy frown


By practicing 40hrs/day one makes pieces look easy.

#lingling40hrs

Help me Obi Wan, you're my only hope!
Originally Posted by Jethro
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte

By practicing 40hrs/day one makes pieces look easy.

#lingling40hrs

Help me Obi Wan, you're my only hope!


Maybe it's Doc Brown you should invoke, and get him to bring the Delorean around, so you can go back in time and practice alongside your self from that time. There are twice as many hours in the day that way ...
You're obsessed with me, aren't you? smile Just to remind you, lack of arguments isn't an excuse for insulting your opponent. I'm not OK with your silly comments and the next time you do that I will report you.
Then maybe it's best to stay out of the kitchen eh? wink

Truce? thumb
[Linked Image]
OK, maybe you will have to stay out of the kitchen for a while.
May I suggest a competition guys...so you can, figuratively, compare your gear...

Post your practice sessions, whoever can play more notes a second wins. If you can play it slowly, you can play it quickly.
Opponent? Takes two, some say. Can't disagree that claiming (apparently relentlessly) that one's good, long time friend produces crap product (but is improving, though!) is unusual. Wouldn't he at least (Philippe) be at all miffed, then?
Not necessary, for a non-zealot.
TF's impertinent upstart 2c.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
OK, maybe you will have to stay out of the kitchen for a while.

Temperatures fine for me (obviously), but I'm game. No veiled personal attacks but able to give opinions without fear of reprisal. I actually respect a lot of what you say, you know a lot about many things. (maybe not Pianoteq- ok I kid I kid) So I am hoping to learn from you as well. thumb
I left off on this at around 11 AM ... because boss-man actually expects us to spend at least **part** of the day doing work.
And now I come back to find that I've missed out on a batch of interactive hilarity ...
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Pianoteq is the solution to world hunger, climate change, poverty, social justice, and a myriad of other ills.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I've actually started receiving abuse on YouTube from a triggered anonymous Pianoteq leftist.
Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
Oh, yeah, I get it now! You were referring to what you possibly perceive as PJW's (Pianoteq Justice Warriors). smile
Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
Maybe it's Doc Brown you should invoke, and get him to bring the Delorean around so you can go back in time and practice alongside your self from that time. There are twice as many hours in the day that way.
I like how PW lets you know when a thread has already been reported!

But what if I have a DIFFERENT complaint?
Does that mean you suspect your complaint was probably different? Or that''s just musing? Intriguing. smile
Wait, guys, you really reported MY thread, because two kids here throw fits over a piece of software? What about this: let's all of us refrain from posting here until I get my grubby mits on P-515 (that's happening tomorrow, but sadly I have a group meeting so not sure if the delivery won't be postponed to Thursday), I will post my impression and whether I'm satisfied and we can discuss the specifics of Yamaha P-515 then...
It's not really a topic-oriented thread, isn't it? Even the title sounds like flame bait.

So while I personally do not see a reason to report it, some users might and that could be justified.
Originally Posted by JoeT
It's not really a topic-oriented thread, isn't it? Even the title sounds like flame bait.

So while I personally do not see a reason to report it, some users might and that could be justified.


Let's let this thread go to its heavenly rest.

I suggest that ChopinAcolyte should start a new thread, when he's wrung-out his P515.
Originally Posted by Charles Cohen

Let's let this thread go to its heavenly rest.

I suggest that ChopinAcolyte should start a new thread, when he's wrung-out his P515.



This thread was meant to let you guys give me some advice about a DP that would suit my needs (in terms of touch) and also share my thoughts after I settle down for something. But if you don't want to hear it, I can keep the aftermath for myself.

Thank you all for your advice.
As an observer, it seems to me the thing blew up because person A is saying person B's professed view is UNQUALIFIED, so should be silenced. And person B insists he's perfectly within his rights to express it here, and refuses to accept A's right to tell him to shut up. There's an attacker, and a defiant defender. TF's view.
I know I'm not a saint and I know that my attitude towards stuff (in this particular case Pianoteq) is sometimes harsh and is usually the cause for other people to get triggered and start a heated debate. However I always try to keep emotions and personal attitude aside. Whatever I say is just my opinion about a software based on experience with it and my understanding (or misunderstanding to that matter) about how it works. And while I'm usually tolerant towards verbal ridicule and insults, it's now getting a trend for Pianoteq fans to use personal insults and discuss my own persona. Franky I wouldn't bother but that situation is repeating itslef and I would prefer if that won't turn into a norm. I've been referred to as "brain dead" and "madman" in this thread, as well as my nickname being intermixed with Koresh and whatever. It has been suggested that it's better if I was silent and do no express my opinion. It could have been funny in another context but not now.
I suspect we all agree that keeping the debate on target, however fierce, and not fall into the trap of insulting others, is the right approach. But maybe we should also all let this thread remind us that it is a trap which is easy to fall into by a gradual heating up of arguments.
I do not think somebody tries to insult somebody. Sometimes a humor can be misunderstood because of local language idiomatics.

Back to Pianoteq. I tried this plugin and find it almost useless, at least for me, for a simple reason.

When I play Garritan CFX, or Ravensscroft 275, or even Synthogy AKG, I feel the resonance of a great body of the instrument made from the best 100-years-old wood, along with a careful hand-made tuning and mechanics.

When I play Pianoteq, I feel a tin can resonating with the strings. All the good playability is spoiled by this feeling. Again, this is my personal feeling, I am not inspired by this plugin.



Let's start over. Let's get back to the original topic: What DPs really lack compared to the acoustic piano.

Answer: STRINGS.

Ok ... now just close this thread. Done. smile
Chopin Acolyte, well, you sure have gotten a lot of bang for your buck here on PW! My opinion... you have a limited budget. Within that budget only one new digital answers your main needs. The VPC1. You might look for a used MP11, that Grand Feel action is preferable to me, but if you are looking for the heaviest Kawai, VPC1 is it. Software pianos are your only hope to fine tune what you are looking for. As for the stand... there are rock solid ones for $200 or less. Search the forum or post the question. Pedals... yeah, never find what you are looking for in a DP.

it’s fun to consider the options, but at some point you just need to make a decision and live with it. No digital will satisfy you completely, so accept that and enjoy the amazing technology available for a relatively small price tag. good luck!
Originally Posted by Andrew_G
I do not think somebody tries to insult somebody. Sometimes a humor can be misunderstood because of local language idiomatics.

That's a possible explanation. If that's the case I will apologize to Jethro for overreacting to his comments. It's probably a bad coincidence that somebody (anonymously) started ridiculing me under my YouTube videos. Even if that won't qualify as an insult and is probably just humor, I don't like it smile I mean, there's so much to be discussed about technology and related stuff that any comments involving personal remarks, even in a very humorous way, are to me already kind of smelly. But that could be a cultural thing indeed. Not sure how that's in the US, but around here (and OK you can call us barbarians), the easiest way to start a fight is to make personal jokes laugh
Chopin Acolyte:
Just buy the VPC1 (1300€)
V3 Sound Grand Piano XXL (450€) sound module or the "noire" sample library (140€)
a good headphone (200€)

and your under 2000€!!!

The VPC has a stable action with the possibility to create your own velocity curves (dynamic) on the pc. Its the most flexible tool on a DP as far as I know (with greatest dynamics possibilities). Why do you need speakers if the reason is to practice in silence (disturb nobody)? Anyway the most speakers do not sound very good with piano libraries...
Just a reminder about velocity curves in Pianoteq: regardless of which keyboard is being used, the velocity curve can be tuned in any which way it might be desired. From the half-decent, to the fully decent, to the absolutely ridiculous.
In the same way that Steinways (the good/vintage ones) need to be prepped at the dealer, Pianoteq needs to be tamed by its owners, so that the ‘tin can’ effect mentioned above can be transformed into a roaring beast that responds to its owner’s commands: Sit, roll over, Pianoteq!

P.S.

I also agree with Quasi’s objective observations: Pianoteq is the best! laugh
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Pagan Min

Does the action on P-515 feel same or at least close to VPC's action though?

Much better. But the Yamaha P-515 is a product half a decade newer, so this is to be expected.

The VPC1 is niche product for a small audience and now pretty much outdated. The MP series has seen two generations, since the MP10 got downstripped to the VPC1.


haha, "newer" means "better" right? The VPC is not outdated as it is produced in a very fine quality! I like the action and the feel of the (white) keys. I tried the P-515. Did not like the action at all. Also the keys are not really wooden (they are made out of plastic with side stripes of wood). Show me pictures of the 515 action. Kawai is always very fair (you can see pictures of the actions on the websites).
I'm a complete noob so whatever I say should be taken in that context.

I have a digital piano but I've played on two actual pianos that weren't in great shape so far and I have to say that even though they were really bad, the experience was more enjoyable to me than my Casio PX-160 is.

There certainly was a difference for sure.

I've played guitar for many many years and I've had literally hundreds of guitars and towards the last of my guitar playing I played on some "so so" classicals, and also on one really good luthier made instrument. That luthier made guitar was LIGHT YEARS away from the others due to it's construction; it was bright and lively and responsive...the others took "work" to play and the experience wasn't the same...it wasn't inspiring! and I look at this like it's the same conversation; sure, an electric guitar with acoustic simulation or a thin-line acoustic guitar plugged in to an amp is "like" a fine classical but it ISN'T a classical for the very same reason...the EXPERIENCE isn't the same and can never be because the two aren't the same thing. One is a photo of the mona lisa painting and the other IS the mona lisa painting. The photo will never have the built up paint, ridges, smell and texture of the actual mona lisa no matter how close it gets.

I found that (for me) that experience is the "thing" and that's why I'm looking for an upright now instead of a high end digital.
Re: Mona Lisa

Yes, that is true about the photo never having the same feel as the real thing, but I don't miss the long lines, the crowds to see her, and being pushed through rather than being able to linger.

It does make a difference when one can sit in front of the painting and contemplate the meaning. I like the one of "George Washington Crossing the Delaware" for that reason.

back to the main topic: I liked your comment about other instruments taking "work" to play. That is how I felt about some of the mid range digital hybrids that I tried. I had to work to make the fast repeated notes sound decent. On the high end pianos though, the same passages felt effortless.


Originally Posted by PianoWVBob
I'm a complete noob so whatever I say should be taken in that context.

I have a digital piano but I've played on two actual pianos that weren't in great shape so far and I have to say that even though they were really bad, the experience was more enjoyable to me than my Casio PX-160 is.

There certainly was a difference for sure.

I've played guitar for many many years and I've had literally hundreds of guitars and towards the last of my guitar playing I played on some "so so" classicals, and also on one really good luthier made instrument. That luthier made guitar was LIGHT YEARS away from the others due to it's construction; it was bright and lively and responsive...the others took "work" to play and the experience wasn't the same...it wasn't inspiring! and I look at this like it's the same conversation; sure, an electric guitar with acoustic simulation or a thin-line acoustic guitar plugged in to an amp is "like" a fine classical but it ISN'T a classical for the very same reason...the EXPERIENCE isn't the same and can never be because the two aren't the same thing. One is a photo of the mona lisa painting and the other IS the mona lisa painting. The photo will never have the built up paint, ridges, smell and texture of the actual mona lisa no matter how close it gets.

I found that (for me) that experience is the "thing" and that's why I'm looking for an upright now instead of a high end digital.
Originally Posted by PianoWVBob
I'm a complete noob so whatever I say should be taken in that context.

I have a digital piano but I've played on two actual pianos that weren't in great shape so far and I have to say that even though they were really bad, the experience was more enjoyable to me than my Casio PX-160 is.

There certainly was a difference for sure.

I've played guitar for many many years and I've had literally hundreds of guitars and towards the last of my guitar playing I played on some "so so" classicals, and also on one really good luthier made instrument. That luthier made guitar was LIGHT YEARS away from the others due to it's construction; it was bright and lively and responsive...the others took "work" to play and the experience wasn't the same...it wasn't inspiring! and I look at this like it's the same conversation; sure, an electric guitar with acoustic simulation or a thin-line acoustic guitar plugged in to an amp is "like" a fine classical but it ISN'T a classical for the very same reason...the EXPERIENCE isn't the same and can never be because the two aren't the same thing. One is a photo of the mona lisa painting and the other IS the mona lisa painting. The photo will never have the built up paint, ridges, smell and texture of the actual mona lisa no matter how close it gets.

I found that (for me) that experience is the "thing" and that's why I'm looking for an upright now instead of a high end digital.


Well put, Bob. Your reasoning is exactly why I will buy a fine acoustic upright in the future, most likely in three to five years. I don’t believe any digital will give me the acoustic tone that I seek.

I went through a number of guitars, first starting with electric, which I did not bond well with. So, I switched to classical guitar and started studying with a teacher. Nine years later, I have upgraded through a number of luthier built classical guitars and wound up with a a cedar top by Antonio Marin Montero and a spruce top by Manuel Velazquez. Both guitars are delightful in their own way.

I’m happy with those two standard classical guitars and have stopped upgrading. I also have a small romantic guitar, a replica of a 19th century Roudhloff, and a massive 900mm contra bass guitar for ensemble work, but I’m done, I swear. Those four guitars fit in a wheeled rack and I play all of them every week.

I’d love to get some ideas on what are the best low cost older used uprights that have quality construction and excellent tone.
How much does the P515 cost? How much does the VPC cost?

How do the key actions compare?

I ask because I'm beginning to think that a full-featured slab (like the P515) is a better value.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Andrew_G
I do not think somebody tries to insult somebody. Sometimes a humor can be misunderstood because of local language idiomatics.

That's a possible explanation. If that's the case I will apologize to Jethro for overreacting to his comments. It's probably a bad coincidence that somebody (anonymously) started ridiculing me under my YouTube videos. Even if that won't qualify as an insult and is probably just humor, I don't like it smile I mean, there's so much to be discussed about technology and related stuff that any comments involving personal remarks, even in a very humorous way, are to me already kind of smelly. But that could be a cultural thing indeed. Not sure how that's in the US, but around here (and OK you can call us barbarians), the easiest way to start a fight is to make personal jokes laugh

This may sound funny, but after being together 15+ years, A few years ago, I actually took an online course to understand my Russian wife. And now the laughter will redouble when I say: it actually helped a lot!

My experience with this Coursera course showed there is a lot about communication which has nothing to do with the language. Even when two counterparties in a conversation are fluent in the language they are talking in, they could be not communicating because of cultural differences. Now when she does something that irritates me, I stop to think, "what did that Coursera course teach me about how Russians communicate?" And usually the moment will pass and I will just not get upset as I did before. thumb
Originally Posted by Andrew_G
I do not think somebody tries to insult somebody. Sometimes a humor can be misunderstood because of local language idiomatics.

Back to Pianoteq. I tried this plugin and find it almost useless, at least for me, for a simple reason.

When I play Garritan CFX, or Ravensscroft 275, or even Synthogy AKG, I feel the resonance of a great body of the instrument made from the best 100-years-old wood, along with a careful hand-made tuning and mechanics.

When I play Pianoteq, I feel a tin can resonating with the strings. All the good playability is spoiled by this feeling. Again, this is my personal feeling, I am not inspired by this plugin.





Seems to be because some of the tonal frequencies on any one note (presumably due to the 3 strings being slightly differently tuned) are causing some sort of phasing effect noticeable during legato passages. Sounds a bit metallic due to that.

Currently, I'm preferring the Roland modelling which seems to have this artifact but to a lesser degree.
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Originally Posted by Charles Cohen

Let's let this thread go to its heavenly rest.

I suggest that ChopinAcolyte should start a new thread, when he's wrung-out his P515.



This thread was meant to let you guys give me some advice about a DP that would suit my needs (in terms of touch) and also share my thoughts after I settle down for something. But if you don't want to hear it, I can keep the aftermath for myself.

Thank you all for your advice.


You mis-understood me:

I do want to hear your thoughts on the P515.

I think a new thread would be justified, for them.
Originally Posted by Andrew_G

When I play Garritan CFX, or Ravensscroft 275, or even Synthogy AKG, I feel the resonance of a great body of the instrument made from the best 100-years-old wood, along with a careful hand-made tuning and mechanics.

When I play Pianoteq, I feel a tin can resonating with the strings. All the good playability is spoiled by this feeling. Again, this is my personal feeling, I am not inspired by this plugin.


Well put, exactly my feelings about it. I actually wonder why the developers are not able to make it sound less "tin canny" yet. I would really want to play it, but it's just not working out between us. (Me and pianoteq, that is.)

Also, there's some notes that don't make a sound at all! They should really fix that. smirk
Originally Posted by aphexdisklavier
haha, "newer" means "better" right? The VPC is not outdated as it is produced in a very fine quality! I like the action and the feel of the (white) keys.

The VPC1's pivot length is too short for my taste. This is the case due to its outdated action. Kawai's current actions all feature sufficient key lengths.

Quote
I tried the P-515. Did not like the action at all. Also the keys are not really wooden (they are made out of plastic with side stripes of wood).


This myth is repeated occasionally, but it is still completely wrong. The NWX action features fully wooden white keys. It's obvious once you have the action in front of you.

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
How much does the P515 cost? How much does the VPC cost?
How do the key actions compare?
I ask because I'm beginning to think that a full-featured slab (like the P515) is a better value.

That is exactly my thinking. Additionally I think Yamaha's action is superior to the old RM3.
Originally Posted by JoeT

That is exactly my thinking. Additionally I think Yamaha's action is superior to the old RM3.


I'll let you know if I feel that superiority in a couple of hours.
Originally Posted by JoeT

The VPC1's pivot length is too short for my taste. This is the case due to its outdated action. Kawai's current actions all feature sufficient key lengths.


Yep. I stopped playing my MP10 for that reason. Some pieces were awkward compared to a grand.
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by JoeT

The VPC1's pivot length is too short for my taste. This is the case due to its outdated action. Kawai's current actions all feature sufficient key lengths.


Yep. I stopped playing my MP10 for that reason. Some pieces were awkward compared to a grand.


So...the folding action on Yamaha P-515 has a longer pivot...?
Yes, whether the action folded under itself doesn't impact how long the pivot point can be. And folding actions with long pivots still take up less space than full levers (what's the term for that, first class levers?).
Hi Chopin Acolyte,
Fingers crossed for the new piano. I do hope don’t lose heart over the thread. Personally I’m Looking forward to your impressions. Good luck,
Paul
Originally Posted by JoeT
This myth is repeated occasionally, but it is still completely wrong. The NWX action features fully wooden white keys. It's obvious once you have the action in front of you.


Hello, Joe, I will take your word for it. Before that I had the impression by the pictures in the Internet the wood were pieces applied to a plastic base just like Roland's PH50 (RD2000, FP90).
Joe's right. NWX is a solid wooden core with plastic strips (the plastic serves as the connection point to the hinge and pins), in quite the opposite way that the PHA-50 is a plastic core with wooden strips (the wood being entirely cosmetic).

[Linked Image]
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by JoeT

The VPC1's pivot length is too short for my taste. This is the case due to its outdated action. Kawai's current actions all feature sufficient key lengths.


Yep. I stopped playing my MP10 for that reason. Some pieces were awkward compared to a grand.


The GF is not a improvement for me. The longer pivot only on the front (and not backside) makes the key very slow in the rebounce. This is an old discussion. The MP11se was a disapiontment for me. I wrote my experience in the "Kawai VPC2 wish list".
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Joe's right. NWX is a solid wooden core with plastic strips (the plastic serves as the connection point to the hinge and pins), in quite the opposite way that the PHA-50 is a plastic core with wooden strips (the wood being entirely cosmetic).


Yes ok, but look at these photos on that thread: too much plastic for my taste (to say its a wooden key) also the black keys are entirely made out of plastic...(?) :
link
‘Long to the pivot but then unnaturally short after that (GF/2)’. I’ve always been curious about the effect this has on the action.
If you look at the digitals with grand action (hybrids?) the key continues long after the pivot as compared to the GF/2 which ends fairly ‘short’ after the pivot.
The saying goes that ‘this doesn’t matter; what matters is the distance from the front of the key to the pivot’. If this is the case why not ‘end’ the key right at the pivot (for digitals)?
Okay, so the Yamaha P-515 arrived and I test-drove it. Before I share videos of me playing, a few points to share:

  • The action doesn't feel super realistic, but at least its heaviness is about the same as VPC1 (both are lighter than the Steinway I usually practice on)
  • I can't feel the escapement, the notch is very slight. Not that it matters that much when played normally, but with the notch comes the sound (the sound is triggered at the same point, useful to know). On the Steinway I usually practice on, the escapement is very pronounced, the key literally "gives in" at that point.
  • The action might be wooden, but when I look from the side (I press one key and look at the key next to it from the side), it looks like a wooden texture attached to the side. Not that it matters. Keys feel fine.
  • White keys are not super polished, so they don't slip. However, it's not the ivory feel.
  • Black keys simulate ebony feel, they are super grippy, very useful for fast passages on black keys.
  • I hate the Bosendorfer sample. Muddy, I never know what it tries to tell me. Like, when I play a real piano, or Yamaha CFX sample, the response is totally standard, "give it X much force and you get Y much sound". Not with the Bosendorfer though, what a terrible sample.
  • I like other sounds, like strings and harpsichord and also blending!
  • I didn't find the chicken sound ?!? frown
  • Not sure about the length of the key, it does feel heavier when I go closer to the fallboard.
  • All in all, it's not terrible to play, of course it doesn't feel like the real deal, but for that money, it is probably a better purchase than VPC1
  • Speakers are not great. They don't suck, but the sound is MUCH more clear through headphones. But I can't expect much at this price point ($1500). However, with VPC1 (or other piano controller) it's ME who gets to choose the speakers, instead of being forced to stick with the pair I don't quite like.
  • No sympathetic resonance. Push down one key without sounding that note and then press related note (e.g. octave higher, or any other partial that's not too high)...very very weak effect, even when I maxxed out resonance in settings. This thing works much better on real pianos (and hate to say it, but it works in Pianoteq, now don't kill me for saying that!)


Now, just a couple of days ago I recorded myself playing The Military Polonaise by Chopin on the Steinway, so I thought that I might record the same piece on Yamaha. Let's hear it:


For reference, played on Steinway:


Another video, I'm just messing around with various pieces and sounds:



I'm not decided whether I'm going to keep it or return it and search further.
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
[*]Speakers are not great. They don't suck, but the sound is MUCH more clear through headphones.

This will be true of every slab piano... and P515 is one of the better ones.

Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
[*]No sympathetic resonance. Push down one key without sounding that note and then press related note (e.g. octave higher, or any other partial that's not too high)...very very weak effect, even when I maxxed out resonance in settings. This thing works much better on real pianos (and hate to say it, but it works in Pianoteq, now don't kill me for saying that!)

Sympathetic resonances are generally not Yamaha's strength.
Yes, I prefer a Steinway grand to the P-515. :-) I’m always shocked by how my teacher’s grand responds after I’ve spent a week practicing on the P-515. My lesson was this afternoon. Now, I’m trying to adjust to the P-515 again. I want an upright to go with the P-515.

Nice playing! In my dreams.
Originally Posted by LarryK
Yes, I prefer a Steinway grand to the P-515. :-) I’m always shocked by how my teacher’s grand responds after I’ve spent a week practicing on the P-515. My lesson was this afternoon. Now, I’m trying to adjust to the P-515 again. I want an upright to go with the P-515.

Nice playing! In my dreams.


Part of me wants to return it and go for VPC1, part of me wants to keep it...I don't think it matters what I get at this price point. At least I have the option to choose from a variety of uprights and maybe sometimes grand (when some piano student doesn't occupy it)...you, on the other hand, have teacher, which I really need but oh boy, it's so expensive!
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Originally Posted by LarryK
Yes, I prefer a Steinway grand to the P-515. :-) I’m always shocked by how my teacher’s grand responds after I’ve spent a week practicing on the P-515. My lesson was this afternoon. Now, I’m trying to adjust to the P-515 again. I want an upright to go with the P-515.

Nice playing! In my dreams.


Part of me wants to return it and go for VPC1, part of me wants to keep it...I don't think it matters what I get at this price point. At least I have the option to choose from a variety of uprights and maybe sometimes grand (when some piano student doesn't occupy it)...you, on the other hand, have teacher, which I really need but oh boy, it's so expensive!


Yes, teachers are expensive but worth it, in my opinion. I’ve never regretted paying a teacher for a lesson. You must have had a teacher to develop chops like that! How many years have you studied?

I think you’re right that it doesn’t matter much what you get at this price point. I’ve thought about the VPC-1 but I believe that it is deeper than the P-515, and I have a tight corner to squeeze that in, so I’m going to stick with the P-515 and hopefully convince my wife to let me get an upright piano.
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte

Part of me wants to return it and go for VPC1, part of me wants to keep it...

Why? What do you think the VPC-1 will offer you that the P-515 doesn't?
Originally Posted by LarryK

Yes, teachers are expensive but worth it, in my opinion. I’ve never regretted paying a teacher for a lesson. You must have had a teacher to develop chops like that! How many years have you studied?

I think you’re right that it doesn’t matter much what you get at this price point. I’ve thought about the VPC-1 but I believe that it is deeper than the P-515, and I have a tight corner to squeeze that in, so I’m going to stick with the P-515 and hopefully convince my wife to let me get an upright piano.



I don't quite know how long the lessons should be and how often. I took lessons back in Europe for a year (about 10 years ago), at a local elementary music school (I felt a bit weird around all those little Ling Lings) and then a year of composition, so not much. Pretty much everything I play now I learned without a guidance and oh boy, did I pick up some bad habits laugh not really funny, I know.

It's funny how you can't squeeze in VPC-1 but an upright? Sure, no problem, you'll find space for that :P But acoustic is always better. I got a stern NO from my roommate, although he practices cello in his room basically daily (and that's not a subtle, quiet instrument by any means)...

Originally Posted by johnstaf

Why? What do you think the VPC-1 will offer you that the P-515 doesn't?


Well, when paired with a proper software, a sympathetic resonance, for once. Another thing, with VPC-1 I don't pay for speakers that suck, I pay just for the properly weighted keys and I buy speakers that would give me an eargasm. But their actions give really very similar feeling. Apart from the key texture, VPC-1 felt a bit slippery, and my fingers do sweat a lot. P-515 grips!

Edit: I can feel that this Yamaha has a pretty light action compared to some trucks I've touched...so it certainly needs some getting used to, even with particular pieces, I could play evenly on a grand, I have to readjust and go again with metronome, practice rhythms etc. to get phrases even again. I'm afraid every time I switch between real grand and this, I'll have to adjust for a few days (not very practical, if I can't have the grand at my disposal for a few days, but rather only for an hour or so at the time).
Great playing! You seem in good control and have excellent technique for 10 years of playing without a teacher.

The best thing now is to try Pianoteq and decide if you like it. If you do, then you can think to eventually switch to a VPC1. Unfortunately no sampled piano can be tried without being bought so it’s risky.
Hi Chopin Acolyte,

Many thanks for your impressions. I completely agree about the sympathetic resonance issue. It is one of Yamaha’s weak points. I also agree that absolutely nothing beats the feel and organic expressive quality of a real grand. As for pianoteq, I really enjoy playing this software and there are many of us (possibly the silent majority) that feel the same. Having said that I’m aware it could be improved sound wise but in many ways it feels satisfying to play. And as Im sure you realise, knowone is going to attack you for pointing out one of pianoteq’s strengths.
Anyway, regarding sound, I am also having to explore the external speaker options. The internal speakers of my CVP709 sound great with other instrument voices but weirdly coloured and boxy with piano. Currently I’ve opted for a pair of iLoud Micro Monitors which are an amazingly good speaker for their small size. There are some excellent comparative videos on YouTube featuring iLoud and its eye opening how well it performs against much bigger powered monitors. The trouble is I’m always looking for perfection and my gaze is straying towards the expensive Kef LSX powered speakers Hmmmmm.
Anyway, good luck with your choices.

Paul
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Originally Posted by LarryK

Yes, teachers are expensive but worth it, in my opinion. I’ve never regretted paying a teacher for a lesson. You must have had a teacher to develop chops like that! How many years have you studied?

I think you’re right that it doesn’t matter much what you get at this price point. I’ve thought about the VPC-1 but I believe that it is deeper than the P-515, and I have a tight corner to squeeze that in, so I’m going to stick with the P-515 and hopefully convince my wife to let me get an upright piano.



I don't quite know how long the lessons should be and how often. I took lessons back in Europe for a year (about 10 years ago), at a local elementary music school (I felt a bit weird around all those little Ling Lings) and then a year of composition, so not much. Pretty much everything I play now I learned without a guidance and oh boy, did I pick up some bad habits laugh not really funny, I know.

It's funny how you can't squeeze in VPC-1 but an upright? Sure, no problem, you'll find space for that :P But acoustic is always better. I got a stern NO from my roommate, although he practices cello in his room basically daily (and that's not a subtle, quiet instrument by any means)...

Originally Posted by johnstaf

Why? What do you think the VPC-1 will offer you that the P-515 doesn't?


Well, when paired with a proper software, a sympathetic resonance, for once. Another thing, with VPC-1 I don't pay for speakers that suck, I pay just for the properly weighted keys and I buy speakers that would give me an eargasm. But their actions give really very similar feeling. Apart from the key texture, VPC-1 felt a bit slippery, and my fingers do sweat a lot. P-515 grips!

Edit: I can feel that this Yamaha has a pretty light action compared to some trucks I've touched...so it certainly needs some getting used to, even with particular pieces, I could play evenly on a grand, I have to readjust and go again with metronome, practice rhythms etc. to get phrases even again. I'm afraid every time I switch between real grand and this, I'll have to adjust for a few days (not very practical, if I can't have the grand at my disposal for a few days, but rather only for an hour or so at the time).


I should have been clearer. The P-515 is next to the bed in my bedroom, an acoustic upright would take the place of a credenza in the living room. The credenza contains mostly junk and my wife’s scarves. I live in a one bedroom apartment in New York City, every bit of storage is precious, it’s not going to be easy to convince my wife that we should get rid of the credenza and replace it with an upright.

I think it is weird that your cellist roommate doesn’t want a piano. No, a cello is not a quiet, subtle instrument. The other half of my living room is dominated by my high end stereo. I tricked an electrician working in the kitchen into thinking I was playing the cello in the living room, lol, like I’m Pablo Casals.

You have done amazingly well for teaching yourself. How did you do it? I started out teaching myself from Bartok’s Mikrokosmos but I am glad that I got a teacher because I also developed a number of terrible habits.

I am used to having a teacher to function as my mirror in order to reflect my mistakes and tell me how to fix them. I need a lot of work on my non-dominant left hand. It tends to tense up and look like a claw. My teacher is working with me a lot on how to physically move on the keyboard and how to press keys without jabbing them, kind of landing on them like how a bird lands.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Great playing! You seem in good control and have excellent technique for 10 years of playing without a teacher.

The best thing now is to try Pianoteq and decide if you like it. If you do, then you can think to eventually switch to a VPC1. Unfortunately no sampled piano can be tried without being bought so it’s risky.


Wow, thank you, that's a great compliment!

Yes, as soon as my roommate comes home I'll ask him to let me use his headphone jack and try it with pianoteq (my computer doesn't have the stereo jack, only the smaller 3.5mm), b/c my built-in screen speakers suck big time (there seems to be some offending resonance frequency somewhere in treble when the whole thing starts to pop violently, so it's not really for music, only for games and watching twosetviolin).

Originally Posted by pmh
Hi Chopin Acolyte,

Many thanks for your impressions. I completely agree about the sympathetic resonance issue. It is one of Yamaha’s weak points. I also agree that absolutely nothing beats the feel and organic expressive quality of a real grand. As for pianoteq, I really enjoy playing this software and there are many of us (possibly the silent majority) that feel the same. Having said that I’m aware it could be improved sound wise but in many ways it feels satisfying to play. And as Im sure you realise, knowone is going to attack you for pointing out one of pianoteq’s strengths.
Anyway, regarding sound, I am also having to explore the external speaker options. The internal speakers of my CVP709 sound great with other instrument voices but weirdly coloured and boxy with piano. Currently I’ve opted for a pair of iLoud Micro Monitors which are an amazingly good speaker for their small size. There are some excellent comparative videos on YouTube featuring iLoud and its eye opening how well it performs against much bigger powered monitors. The trouble is I’m always looking for perfection and my gaze is straying towards the expensive Kef LSX powered speakers Hmmmmm.
Anyway, good luck with your choices.

Paul


I was advised Klipsch speakers, that they are good and don't cost that much. Not sure though! I'm not even sure if the proper power (W) input combined with frequency range should be the main point I decide upon...

Originally Posted by LarryK


I should have been clearer. The P-515 is next to the bed in my bedroom, an acoustic upright would take the place of a credenza in the living room. The credenza contains mostly junk and my wife’s scarves. I live in a one bedroom apartment in New York City, every bit of storage is precious, it’s not going to be easy to convince my wife that we should get rid of the credenza and replace it with an upright.

I think it is weird that your cellist roommate doesn’t want a piano. No, a cello is not a quiet, subtle instrument. The other half of my living room is dominated by my high end stereo. I tricked an electrician working in the kitchen into thinking I was playing the cello in the living room, lol, like I’m Pablo Casals.

You have done amazingly well for teaching yourself. How did you do it? I started out teaching myself from Bartok’s Mikrokosmos but I am glad that I got a teacher because I also developed a number of terrible habits.

I am used to having a teacher to function as my mirror in order to reflect my mistakes and tell me how to fix them. I need a lot of work on my non-dominant left hand. It tends to tense up and look like a claw. My teacher is working with me a lot on how to physically move on the keyboard and how to press keys without jabbing them, kind of landing on them like how a bird lands.


He wants to play duets though.

And thank you, I'm watching closely other pianists and also Paul Barton on youtube, he is great with his advice. He offers a lot of unique approach to playing. But there is also the reflective part you mentioned, I guess one has to listen closely to themselves playing, if that doesn't work, record the performance and listen to it (I discover a lot of rhythmic errors I didn't hear while playing)...in general, practicing with metronome helps a lot, too.

Sometimes, a teacher could say one sentence that would save you weeks of pointless banging, because you can do it more effectively...sometimes, such advice that would work specifically for you lies somewhere on youtube/internet in general, sometimes not...also, I guess, not every teacher is good and knows how to assess a student and help them improve.


Ppl who have a piano teacher, what's a good price in Florida? Is $20/half an hour too much (that'd be $40 per hour, or $30 per 45 minutes)? That's the price the local grad students of piano pedagogy offers to other students of the same college (even tho I'm not in music school)...

I remember when I was 16, half a year of lessons (if I remember it was once a week, one hour, plus recitals, plus separate theory lessons) cost about 50 euro...that's very different from $40 an hour...Last time I checked, private teachers (that would come to your house) cost from about 8 euro to 20 euro an hour.
Even if you like Pianoteq it’s not necessary that you will get better results controlling it with VPC1 though.

BTW, you don’t have to wait for your roommate. The P515 has embedded audio interface that you can use with your laptop. You only need to connect it with a single USB cable for both MIDI and audio transfer and then you can listen to the sound through the P515 speakers or the headphone jack. You only have to turn MIDI local control off on the piano (check the manual) in order to disable the piano’s own sound. In Pianoteq you will select the Yamaha as an audio output and the sound will go back to the piano.
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Great playing! You seem in good control and have excellent technique for 10 years of playing without a teacher.

The best thing now is to try Pianoteq and decide if you like it. If you do, then you can think to eventually switch to a VPC1. Unfortunately no sampled piano can be tried without being bought so it’s risky.


Wow, thank you, that's a great compliment!

Yes, as soon as my roommate comes home I'll ask him to let me use his headphone jack and try it with pianoteq (my computer doesn't have the stereo jack, only the smaller 3.5mm), b/c my built-in screen speakers suck big time (there seems to be some offending resonance frequency somewhere in treble when the whole thing starts to pop violently, so it's not really for music, only for games and watching twosetviolin).

Originally Posted by pmh
Hi Chopin Acolyte,

Many thanks for your impressions. I completely agree about the sympathetic resonance issue. It is one of Yamaha’s weak points. I also agree that absolutely nothing beats the feel and organic expressive quality of a real grand. As for pianoteq, I really enjoy playing this software and there are many of us (possibly the silent majority) that feel the same. Having said that I’m aware it could be improved sound wise but in many ways it feels satisfying to play. And as Im sure you realise, knowone is going to attack you for pointing out one of pianoteq’s strengths.
Anyway, regarding sound, I am also having to explore the external speaker options. The internal speakers of my CVP709 sound great with other instrument voices but weirdly coloured and boxy with piano. Currently I’ve opted for a pair of iLoud Micro Monitors which are an amazingly good speaker for their small size. There are some excellent comparative videos on YouTube featuring iLoud and its eye opening how well it performs against much bigger powered monitors. The trouble is I’m always looking for perfection and my gaze is straying towards the expensive Kef LSX powered speakers Hmmmmm.
Anyway, good luck with your choices.

Paul


I was advised Klipsch speakers, that they are good and don't cost that much. Not sure though! I'm not even sure if the proper power (W) input combined with frequency range should be the main point I decide upon...

Originally Posted by LarryK


I should have been clearer. The P-515 is next to the bed in my bedroom, an acoustic upright would take the place of a credenza in the living room. The credenza contains mostly junk and my wife’s scarves. I live in a one bedroom apartment in New York City, every bit of storage is precious, it’s not going to be easy to convince my wife that we should get rid of the credenza and replace it with an upright.

I think it is weird that your cellist roommate doesn’t want a piano. No, a cello is not a quiet, subtle instrument. The other half of my living room is dominated by my high end stereo. I tricked an electrician working in the kitchen into thinking I was playing the cello in the living room, lol, like I’m Pablo Casals.

You have done amazingly well for teaching yourself. How did you do it? I started out teaching myself from Bartok’s Mikrokosmos but I am glad that I got a teacher because I also developed a number of terrible habits.

I am used to having a teacher to function as my mirror in order to reflect my mistakes and tell me how to fix them. I need a lot of work on my non-dominant left hand. It tends to tense up and look like a claw. My teacher is working with me a lot on how to physically move on the keyboard and how to press keys without jabbing them, kind of landing on them like how a bird lands.


He wants to play duets though.

And thank you, I'm watching closely other pianists and also Paul Barton on youtube, he is great with his advice. He offers a lot of unique approach to playing. But there is also the reflective part you mentioned, I guess one has to listen closely to themselves playing, if that doesn't work, record the performance and listen to it (I discover a lot of rhythmic errors I didn't hear while playing)...in general, practicing with metronome helps a lot, too.

Sometimes, a teacher could say one sentence that would save you weeks of pointless banging, because you can do it more effectively...sometimes, such advice that would work specifically for you lies somewhere on youtube/internet in general, sometimes not...also, I guess, not every teacher is good and knows how to assess a student and help them improve.


Ppl who have a piano teacher, what's a good price in Florida? Is $20/half an hour too much (that'd be $40 per hour, or $30 per 45 minutes)? That's the price the local grad students of piano pedagogy offers to other students of the same college (even tho I'm not in music school)...

I remember when I was 16, half a year of lessons (if I remember it was once a week, one hour, plus recitals, plus separate theory lessons) cost about 50 euro...that's very different from $40 an hour...Last time I checked, private teachers (that would come to your house) cost from about 8 euro to 20 euro an hour.


All you need to use Pianoteq is a USB cable between your laptop and the P-515. The sound will be routed back to the P-515 and you’ll be able to listen to all of the audio through a 1/4” jack on the P-515. It’s slick. I use Pianoteq quite a bit.

I just knew that the cellist wanted to play duets! It’s natural.

I just thought of an angle that might convince my wife to let me get an upright. I’ll tell her my teacher says I should get a real piano in order to accelerate my progress. :-) My teacher calls every keyboard a gadget, that’s not a compliment, haha.

The Twoset guys, lol. I spent ten years sawing away at the violin. I don’t miss that sound under my ear. I have spent the last ten years studying the classical guitar, yes, with a teacher. I agree with what you said about how teachers can save you time.

I pay New York City prices for teachers, you don’t want to know. Your prices sound awesome to me, lol. One has to consider the quality and background of the teacher, of course. The good thing about paying a lot for something is that it helps motivate you to practice on a daily basis and it makes you take things seriously or you give up quickly.
That's great, that's something you actually have to pay extra in Kawai's pianos (think of CN-27 vs CN-37 or CA-48 vs CA-58, and something called "line in")!

However, I don't have the square to USB cable...(looks like a printer cable). I looked online, the shop I bought Yamaha from sells it for 80 bucks shocked

Originally Posted by LarryK

I pay New York City prices for teachers, you don’t want to know. Your prices sound awesome to me, lol. One has to consider the quality and background of the teacher, of course. The good thing about paying a lot for something is that it helps motivate you to practice on a daily basis and it makes you take things seriously or you give up quickly.


I think a good teacher is like local grad students...an actual pianist, so he should be able to tell what works and what does not. Not sure though.

Never considered not taking piano seriously, or giving up, when I don't have an instrument around I miss it a lot (when I first moved here I annoyed representatives of the university with emails about pianos, until I discovered the local practice rooms, open to every student). Never stopped playing ever since I started.
A “printer” cable should usually cost $2-3.
I can see I don't have the time to return it and buy VPC1 before the sale ends smirk

I guess I'll test it more and decide in a week...
I like the MP11SE much more then the VPC-1, action wise. After that the only thing that gets you closer is the Avant Grand or Kawai hybrid. I prefer the Yamaha . The new N1X is very nice.

For the way you play and being used to playing on a quality piano, I can't see you being satisfied with anything less then the Avant Grand or Novus. wink
Originally Posted by Dave Ferris
For the way you play and being used to playing on a quality piano, I can't see you being satisfied with anything less then the Avant Grand or Novus. wink

Absolutely agree smile BTW, earlier in this thread it was discussed how novice piano players can benefit from listening to experienced pianists when doing their choice. I think Chopin Acolyte is such a good pianist that he doesn’t need that at all and has to make his choice entirely on his own.
Originally Posted by Dave Ferris
I like the MP11SE much more then the VPC-1, action wise. After that the only thing that gets you closer is the Avant Grand or Kawai hybrid. I prefer the Yamaha . The new N1X is very nice.

For the way you play and being used to playing on a quality piano, I can't see you being satisfied with anything less then the Avant Grand or Novus. wink


The last bit is awfully similar to how the Kawai dealer tried to persuade me to buy $6000 CP2..."come on, I know you're gonna outgrow CN-27, anything less than CP2 is not going to satisfy you" laugh CP2 is an outdated model with GF action (also feels very light)

I actually don't have that much money frown I know it must feel amazing but no dealers actually even carry those models (just to try it and drool a little all over it). I heard that even NU1X feels nice.
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
I can see I don't have the time to return it and buy VPC1 before the sale ends smirk

I guess I'll test it more and decide in a week...


why don´t you go to your friend (who has the VPC) with the 515 and compare it directly (midi connected to the 515). Then you can decide what action is the best for you. After that you can think about sounds speakers etc.
There are so many possibilities but the action (for me) is the most essential tool in the setup...
[Linked Image]

wink
I bet on a virtual beer that P515 compared side by side to a VPC (as controllers to whatever it is: Pianoteq or sample based VST), the P515 is the better keyboard smile But I'd bet only a beer and only a virtual one laugh I'm not sure one is definitely better than the other and as a matter of fact I don't like either. The VPC feels somehow weird (I owned a CA63 with that keyboard) and mechanically just isn't as much realistic as the presence of single piece wooden key sticks suggests. And the P515 with the initial friction/resistance is also kind of weird.

But anyway, I'd be interested in hearing the comparison results.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
The VPC feels somehow weird (I owned a CA63 with that keyboard) and mechanically just isn't as much realistic as the presence of single piece wooden key sticks suggests. And the P515 with the initial friction/resistance is also kind of weird.

I wouldn't even presume to argue keyboard feel with someone who lists 10 keyboards (11 with your DIY) in their forum signature! blush
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I bet on a virtual beer that P515 compared side by side to a VPC (as controllers to whatever it is: Pianoteq or sample based VST), the P515 is the better keyboard smile


I don't bet, nor do I drink, however given the choice between the two, I would personally opt for a VPC1 over the P-515.

Don't get me wrong, I believe the P-515 is an excellent standalone portable piano. However, if my focus is on piano action realism for partnering with virtual piano software, I will chose the product that is developed exclusively for that purpose.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
I owned a CA63 with that keyboard...


No, you owned a CA63 with the "RM3 Grand" keyboard action. wink
Similar, but not the same.

Cheers,
James
x
Originally Posted by Kawai James

Originally Posted by CyberGene
I owned a CA63 with that keyboard...


No, you owned a CA63 with the "RM3 Grand" keyboard action. wink
Similar, but not the same.

I knew that you were gonna answer exactly that and I’m prepared with my reply wink Although you called the one in the VPC1 RM3 II, it’s mechanically the same action with added third sensor that facilitates repetition. Apart from that they are the same actions and feel the same when switched off. If you state they differ mechanically you need to show documents that confirm it because on pictures there aren’t differences and you have yourself said they are not mechanically different, apologies if I got that wrong.
P.S. Just remembered an escapement simulation was also added to the RM3 II which is just a rubber notch that goes in the way of the hammer. I have previously discussed how that’s wrong because it can slow down the otherwise free moving hammer.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
P.S. Just remembered an escapement simulation was also added to the RM3 II which is just a rubber notch that goes in the way of the hammer. I have previously discussed how that’s wrong because it can slow down the otherwise free moving hammer.


More correct simulation would go in the way of the key itself?
This notion that the VPC-1 is the de facto controller is somewhat outdated. Yes, it was designed exclusively for controlling virtual pianos but that was eons ago, and things have moved forward whilst the VPC lags behind. Still a good controller but not necessarily the best; especially as it relates to the P-515 which gives you so much more in terms of very sought after and useful features: on-board sounds, built-in speakers, audio interface, available -matching- stand/pedal-board, etc.... Are the speakers good? Yes! Could you further expand by adding monitors? Yes!
‘Authorized velocity curves?’ Well, as CG puts it, ‘not a big deal’. Has Kawai updated these curves to better match Pianoteq’s current road map? No!
Originally Posted by Pete14
Still a good controller but not necessarily the best; especially as it relates to the P-515 which gives you so much more in terms of very sought after and useful features: on-board sounds, built-in speakers, audio interface, available -matching- stand/pedal-board, etc.... Are the speakers good? Yes! Could you further expand by adding monitors? Yes!
‘Authorized velocity curves?’ Well, as CG puts it, ‘not a big deal’. Has Kawai updated these curves to better match Pianoteq’s current road map? No!

I think there are some apples and oranges in this paragraph. MIDI controllers are not suppose to have on-board sounds, built-in speakers, and audio interfaces. Why are these being discussed in the context of a MIDI controller at all? I can imagine that MIDI controllers likely do benefit for individual velocity curves for each key. (Not that I've ever used a MIDI controller myself before.)
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Originally Posted by CyberGene
P.S. Just remembered an escapement simulation was also added to the RM3 II which is just a rubber notch that goes in the way of the hammer. I have previously discussed how that’s wrong because it can slow down the otherwise free moving hammer.


More correct simulation would go in the way of the key itself?

Unfortunately it's not as simple as that. On a real grand piano action the escapement is where the hammer detaches from the action, i.e. the jack and underlying whippen, capstan, key. From that moment on the hammer moves freely the remaining 1-2mm to the string and is not hampered. But you can actually tap the key slightly and it will create the proper inertia in the hammer much before that and the hammer will keep moving freely to hit the string and no escapement will be used at all. So, it's not either the hammer or the key, the escapement is a particular solution to a problem whereas on digital piano keyboards that problem doesn't exist and so they decided to emulate only the feel but they did it wrongly smile I'm not sure about other escapement simulation but Kawai put the rubber notch in the way of the hammer on RM and GF actions. You can tap the key and it will throw the hammer but that hammer will need to go past the rubber notch which will slow it down before hitting the sensors.

Furthermore, on a grand piano action, when you press the key fully and the escapement is engaged, the hammer will fall back and be caught by the backcheck usually 8mm from the string. When you release the key, what pushes the key for a brief moment is not the weight of the hammer but instead the double repetition lever spring until the jack is reengaged, i.e. you "activate" the escapement. On digital pianos the hammer will be pushing with its weight on the key constantly and so that feel of mechanical stuff going under the key that leads to varying weight and resistance is lost. The escapement simulation in digital pianos is simply a BS that's there for no particular reason besides stating that they emulated something. But they won't tell you they forgot to emulate everything else around escapement and that the escapement simulation goes in the way of the hammer.
Imho, the biggest difference is the pedal mechanism.

So confusing to feel the whole machinery behind the pedal and suddenly having to pay attention to how one releases it.
I have the tendency to just take my foot off rather abruptly, bet you all know how that sounds on a grand piano. laugh
Great explanation CyberGene, kinda makes me think Casio made the best choice by not emulating letoff in their GP line, instead of emulating it in a wrong way like the other brands.

The right choice, at risk of losing sales because of offering no emulated letoff so it looks worse on paper.
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by Pete14
Still a good controller but not necessarily the best; especially as it relates to the P-515 which gives you so much more in terms of very sought after and useful features: on-board sounds, built-in speakers, audio interface, available -matching- stand/pedal-board, etc.... Are the speakers good? Yes! Could you further expand by adding monitors? Yes!
‘Authorized velocity curves?’ Well, as CG puts it, ‘not a big deal’. Has Kawai updated these curves to better match Pianoteq’s current road map? No!

I think there are some apples and oranges in this paragraph. MIDI controllers are not suppose to have on-board sounds, built-in speakers, and audio interfaces. Why are these being discussed in the context of a MIDI controller at all? I can imagine that MIDI controllers likely do benefit for individual velocity curves for each key. (Not that I've ever used a MIDI controller myself before.)


In the context of ‘added’ value, I think it is relevant to mention these features.
These two boards are ‘controllers’ in the sense that they can control external virtual instruments, but the P-515 is also much more than that (added value).
Perhaps if we were talking of an ‘Arturia’ type controller the similarities would end at the sliders, knobs, modulation wheel, expression pedal input, etc... but the VPC-1 does not offer this kind of functionality, so in a way it’s just a keyboard meant to control virtual pianos, albeit a very good one at that, but as far as bang-for-buck goes, the P-515 takes the cake.
Originally Posted by Granyala
Imho, the biggest difference is the pedal mechanism.

So confusing to feel the whole machinery behind the pedal and suddenly having to pay attention to how one releases it.
I have the tendency to just take my foot off rather abruptly, bet you all know how that sounds on a grand piano. laugh

On my digital pianos I smoothly lift the pedal up to the dampening point and stop there. Where that point is I figure out by ear. Works excellent on grand pianos without any noise.

I didn't have any access to the likes of a "Grand Feel Pedal System" to train this. I just used continuous pedals from the beginning and carefully watched my technique.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
P.S. Just remembered an escapement simulation was also added to the RM3 II which is just a rubber notch that goes in the way of the hammer. I have previously discussed how that’s wrong because it can slow down the otherwise free moving hammer.


To complicate matters... The RM3 on the MP10 and some others already had the escapement thingie before the RM3 II came out.
Before anybody starts accusing me of bashing Kawai, I'm not sure any other digital piano action fares better in terms of escapement. IMO, they shouldn't have emulated escapement at all because the escapement is really much more than just a notch. I don't think they will ever be able to emulate all the intricacies of a real piano action unless they make unnecessarily complex equivalent or just use a real action smile With all that in mind, digital pianos are expressive enough and are all quite similar to a large degree. Whether it's a folded action or long wooden stick as in the Kawai pianos, is to me the same though since they all lack escapement and are just pushing a hammer all the time, and the hammer is pushing back on the key all the time. That's it smile
Cyber Gene: yes youre completely right but the thing is Chopin Acolyte wants to find a piano/action that is more similar to his grand piano for about 2000€. For me the VPC has one of the most realistic feels under my fingers. My experiences in testing out vartious DPs and GPs you can find here. Only in direct comparison you can feel the differences to make better decitions what you really prefer.
Originally Posted by Pete14
In the context of ‘added’ value, I think it is relevant to mention these features.
These two boards are ‘controllers’ in the sense that they can control external virtual instruments, but the P-515 is also much more than that (added value).
Perhaps if we were talking of an ‘Arturia’ type controller the similarities would end at the sliders, knobs, modulation wheel, expression pedal input, etc... but the VPC-1 does not offer this kind of functionality, so in a way it’s just a keyboard meant to control virtual pianos, albeit a very good one at that, but as far as bang-for-buck goes, the P-515 takes the cake.

The P-515 is also the superior controller with much more MIDI functionality including the option to freely map up to four pedals and sending all kinds of MIDI control messages.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Although you called the one in the VPC1 RM3 II, it’s mechanically the same action with added third sensor that facilitates repetition. Apart from that they are the same actions and feel the same when switched off. If you state they differ mechanically you need to show documents that confirm it because on pictures there aren’t differences and you have yourself said they are not mechanically different, apologies if I got that wrong.


As requested:

RM3 Grand - CA93/CA63/CA13
[Linked Image]

RM3 Grand II - CA15/CA17/VPC1
[Linked Image]

Like I say, similar but not the same.

Thanks for playing. wink

Originally Posted by CyberGene
P.S. Just remembered an escapement simulation was also added to the RM3 II...


Alas, your memory is unreliable - let-off simulation was a feature of the original RM3 Grand action.

Kind regards,
James
x
^ James, thanks, there are subtle differences indeed like the hammer shape, sensor PCB mounting frame, etc. I stand corrected. And indeed escapement was not added to RM3 II, it was there already in CA63, so at least that's not new which is in fact a point for me laugh I've never had the chance to compare CA63 directly to VPC1. However I remember that I didn't like the CA63 action and I didn't like the VPC1 action. That doesn't mean they are not different though, so I retract my comment about VPC1 action being bad because it's the same as in the CA63. It's bad bad only because it felt bad to me, but it could be a different "bad".
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte

Originally Posted by johnstaf

Why? What do you think the VPC-1 will offer you that the P-515 doesn't?


Well, when paired with a proper software, a sympathetic resonance, for once. Another thing, with VPC-1 I don't pay for speakers that suck, I pay just for the properly weighted keys and I buy speakers that would give me an eargasm. But their actions give really very similar feeling.

*IF* you find the actions comparably satisfying, then P515+speakers+pianoteq is still cheaper than VPC1+speakers+pianoteq. Just because you have the built-in sound and speakers doesn't mean you have to use them... though they still may be nice to have for occasional "just turn it on and play" moments. Also, a total savings of a few hundred dollars could buy you a bunch of $20-$40 piano lessons. Not that I don't think you're doing quite nicely without them. ;-)

I guess the other variable is that the VPC already has pianoteq-specific curves. You might have to put more effort into getting a comparably satisfying connection out of P515+Pianoteq.
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Granyala
Imho, the biggest difference is the pedal mechanism.

So confusing to feel the whole machinery behind the pedal and suddenly having to pay attention to how one releases it.
I have the tendency to just take my foot off rather abruptly, bet you all know how that sounds on a grand piano. laugh

On my digital pianos I smoothly lift the pedal up to the dampening point and stop there. Where that point is I figure out by ear. Works excellent on grand pianos without any noise.

I didn't have any access to the likes of a "Grand Feel Pedal System" to train this. I just used continuous pedals from the beginning and carefully watched my technique.

Sounds complicated... I keep working on it. Meanwhile, everytime the damper goes >splat< I keep thinking "sorry!".

I need a VST which reproduces this behavior, at least on the acoustic side. laugh
Originally Posted by anotherscott

I guess the other variable is that the VPC already has pianoteq-specific curves. You might have to put more effort into getting a comparably satisfying connection out of P515+Pianoteq.


There are curves for all the popular digitals on the Pianoteq website. I have never used them though.
Originally Posted by Granyala

Sounds complicated... I keep working on it. Meanwhile, everytime the damper goes >splat< I keep thinking "sorry!".

I need a VST which reproduces this behavior, at least on the acoustic side. laugh

It isn't complicated at all. Just use a continuous damper pedal and move it less and slower. When re-pedaling stop at the point where notes actually get dampened and don't move the pedal all the way up. The less pedal movement you use, the less noise you produce.
Originally Posted by johnstaf
[There are curves for all the popular digitals on the Pianoteq website. I have never used them though.

A single individual's opinion of the best curve for that model. Only one individual's.
I'll let Pianoteq regulars to share their opinion as more trustworthy but in my limited experience every Pianoteq model has different touch response and I needed to change it in the Pianoteq interface in some cases. And I always used the default one in my ES7. And now the N1X although I've only tested it with only two of the models. Which is why I don't think this "Pianoteq tailored" curve is of any significance taking in mind most users will customize the curve in Pianoteq.
Originally Posted by aphexdisklavier
Yes ok, but look at these photos on that thread: too much plastic for my taste (to say its a wooden key) also the black keys are entirely made out of plastic...(?) :
link

They feel like solid wood, because they are, instead of the usual hollow plastic. I don't feel bad about the hinge being a regulation-free design based on GH. The black keys are made of plastic, this is correct. But I don't know if it matters or if wooden black keys feel any different.

Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Okay, so the Yamaha P-515 arrived and I test-drove it. Before I share videos of me playing, a few points to share:

  • The action doesn't feel super realistic, but at least its heaviness is about the same as VPC1 (both are lighter than the Steinway I usually practice on)
  • I can't feel the escapement, the notch is very slight. Not that it matters that much when played normally, but with the notch comes the sound (the sound is triggered at the same point, useful to know). On the Steinway I usually practice on, the escapement is very pronounced, the key literally "gives in" at that point.
  • The action might be wooden, but when I look from the side (I press one key and look at the key next to it from the side), it looks like a wooden texture attached to the side. Not that it matters. Keys feel fine.
  • White keys are not super polished, so they don't slip. However, it's not the ivory feel.
  • Black keys simulate ebony feel, they are super grippy, very useful for fast passages on black keys.
  • I hate the Bosendorfer sample. Muddy, I never know what it tries to tell me. Like, when I play a real piano, or Yamaha CFX sample, the response is totally standard, "give it X much force and you get Y much sound". Not with the Bosendorfer though, what a terrible sample.
  • I like other sounds, like strings and harpsichord and also blending!
  • I didn't find the chicken sound ?!? frown
  • Not sure about the length of the key, it does feel heavier when I go closer to the fallboard.
  • All in all, it's not terrible to play, of course it doesn't feel like the real deal, but for that money, it is probably a better purchase than VPC1
  • Speakers are not great. They don't suck, but the sound is MUCH more clear through headphones. But I can't expect much at this price point ($1500). However, with VPC1 (or other piano controller) it's ME who gets to choose the speakers, instead of being forced to stick with the pair I don't quite like.
  • No sympathetic resonance. Push down one key without sounding that note and then press related note (e.g. octave higher, or any other partial that's not too high)...very very weak effect, even when I maxxed out resonance in settings. This thing works much better on real pianos (and hate to say it, but it works in Pianoteq, now don't kill me for saying that!)


Now, just a couple of days ago I recorded myself playing The Military Polonaise by Chopin on the Steinway, so I thought that I might record the same piece on Yamaha. Let's hear it:


For reference, played on Steinway:


Another video, I'm just messing around with various pieces and sounds:



I'm not decided whether I'm going to keep it or return it and search further.


Great review and great playing! I wasn't able to play that fluently when I got my P-515. It took me quite a while to get used to the action.

Some notes:

The headphones output uses a different sample for the CFX sound, recorded with binaural microphones. Which is the main reason, why it sounds superior to the speakers. It took myself quite a while to get used to the Bösendorfer sample, it's very different from the default CFX, but it doesn't have the Binaural option. You need to disable it in the System menu to get the proper sound on the headphones.

Most people think about Yamaha's actions as "very heavy". It's interesting to see how different your experience is. The key length is digital piano standard (roughly 20 centimeters white key length to the pivot). Some high-end digitals (with Kawai Grand Feel 2 or Yamaha GrandTouch) have longer keys, most slabs have much shorter ones (especially Casio). Escapement in digital piano is fake, except for hybrid models from $7,500 up.

Slab speakers are big compromise, however many slabs sound much worse. But the table you placed it on doesn't help it, a proper stand is a must-have. There are also lots of EQ options and the option choose various IAC levels.
About Pianoteq: unfortunately, the "printer" cable (type B, "USB to host") did not work: when I connected it to my PC, nothing showed up in pianoteq as a source...not sure what more I should do to make it work.

It also has two cables that are marked midi in and midi out, it has a bigger end and I don't have that kind of cable to test it out...but those are usually for connecting other devices to the instrument, aren't they...

As I play on it today it kinda feels more real...I don't know, I'm so confused I'm not sure what feels reel and what does not anymore. I guess if I want to steer my decision towards returning it I will go to the music school and play some real pianos, if I want to keep it I'll stay away from real pianos.

About "real" digital actions: how real does NU1X feel?
When you are plugging in USB audio and MIDI devices to the computer, you might have to restart the application, in this case Pianoteq, for it to be able to see the refreshed device status.

As to NU1X, I've owned ti briefly for about a month in February and created a humungous thread:
My NU1X review

I returned it because of two keys that were slightly louder than the rest as well as the infamous "loud note issue" which has been discussed to death but seems to be fixed by a very recent firmware update.

However it's LIGHT YEARS ahead as a touch response to anything else besides the AvantGrands and the NV10. You should definitely test it, it's a real upright action that feels great.
Ah, so in Pianoteq I can see "output" in which I can select "Line (digital piano)". This makes Pianoteq play sound from the DP's speakers (so when I click on keys in Pianoteq I hear it from the Yamaha speakers, rather than my screen speakers). However, when I play the keys on Yamaha, it still produces Yamaha's internal sounds...
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Ah, so in Pianoteq I can see "output" in which I can select "Line (digital piano)". This makes Pianoteq play sound from the DP's speakers (so when I click on keys in Pianoteq I hear it from the Yamaha speakers, rather than my screen speakers). However, when I play the keys on Yamaha, it still produces Yamaha's internal sounds...

Maybe it's time to have a look at the user manual? To play external instruments without mixing them with the internal sound, you have to turn off Local Control on any instrument.
Yeah, I mentioned that you have to turn local control off a few posts ago but you've missed it wink
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Ah, so in Pianoteq I can see "output" in which I can select "Line (digital piano)". This makes Pianoteq play sound from the DP's speakers (so when I click on keys in Pianoteq I hear it from the Yamaha speakers, rather than my screen speakers). However, when I play the keys on Yamaha, it still produces Yamaha's internal sounds...

Maybe it's time to have a look at the user manual? To play external instruments without mixing them with the internal sound, you have to turn off Local Control on any instrument.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Yeah, I mentioned that you have to turn local control off a few posts ago but you've missed it wink

Chopin Acolyte, this is actually a "feature" of MIDI itself, and not specific to only this piano.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Yeah, I mentioned that you have to turn local control off a few posts ago but you've missed it wink


Oh, I found it! Now when I press a key it doesn't play anything laugh
Let us know how you find Pianoteq. I personally like the Bechstein DG the most. And I’ve participated in the beta testing for Grotrian so I hope a very small part of how it sounds might also be due to my contribution. Or despite it laugh
Yes, "Local Off" has nothing to do with the ability of the keyboard to trigger Pianoteq.

It does affect whether you will hear the Yamaha's own piano sound while you're doing it. Another solution to prevent that could be to simply turn the volume knob down, as the volume control may not necessarily control the volume of the Pianoteq sound coming back in.
Yayyyy, it works! There was a setting in pianoteq "active MIDI inputs" and I set it to the digital piano.

I'm testing it. I messed up something when I tinkered with hammer hardness (I found my absolutely strongest forte totally underwhelming, I don't know why it produces just a slightly louder sound)...gotta restart

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Let us know how you find Pianoteq. I personally like the Bechstein DG the most. And I’ve participated in the beta testing for Grotrian so I hope a very small part of how it sounds might also be due to my contribution. Or despite it laugh


You're right! Bechstein DG sounds pretty good, and I love the resonances Pianoteq generates, it's less dry than Yamaha original simulation. I love it how when I play a passage from that Rachmaninoff g minor prelude (and hit the right keys lol), all harmonies blend together beautifully. But unfortunately, I would now totally prefer heavier action, as slamming the keys now is met with the right sound, but is not met with right amount of mechanical resistance....I wish I had VPC-1 here so I can compare them side by side.
Indeed, all digital pianos, even the heaviest feeling ones such as Yamaha Clavinova pianos and the P515 are still rather light feeling in comparison to average real upright and grand piano actions. Such as in NU1X and N1X. I guess it’s due to the inertia of the heavier hammers. Also, a real grand piano has a blow distance of 47mm on average, so you can calculate work: it’s force multiplied by distance, including internal resistance of action parts and their weight which ultimately require higher force. Then compare that to average digital piano actions which due to compactness have much lower blow distance. Despite hammers weighting the same (?). So there’s less work and it makes it feel lighter even though static weight is the same.
One thing I noticed...my DP does not really send the signal up to velocity level 127...regardless of what I set it to in terms of touch (soft 2, soft 1, medium hard 1, hard 2), the levels are (the notations are my usual touch, the numbers are what pianoteq shows)
p: 25
mp:35
mf: 50
f: 75
ff: 90
fff: 100
absolutely most badass clenched fist fffff I can produce: around 110 (and I'm sure this is not good for the keyboard, I never push this fast/hard on a real piano to get that sound)

Am I missing something obvious?
Yamahas are like that. Edit the Pianoteq curve. You can remap it so that 100 from piano will translate to 127 in Pianoteq.
I've been thinking of adding lead wire to the hammers, and counterweights to the keys of my digital, so I feel more resistance when playing forte. The treble feels close enough to a grand, but the bass feels like it gives way too easily when I play forte. It's fairly easy to adjust, except when it isn't...
Originally Posted by johnstaf
I've been thinking of adding lead wire to the hammers, and counterweights to the keys of my digital, so I feel more resistance when playing forte. The treble feels close enough to my a grand, but the bass just feels like it gives way when I play forte. It's fairly easy to adjust, except when it isn't...


Yeah, but that voids the warranty...

I still hope that I can return this if need be and buy something that really feels like a truck. I want the loud sound to be matched with the feel like I'm pushing a coal locomotive and soft sound with...well, I just want something equivalent to that Steinway in the music school, in my room, that's all. Shouldn't be that hard, right? laugh
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Originally Posted by johnstaf
I've been thinking of adding lead wire to the hammers, and counterweights to the keys of my digital, so I feel more resistance when playing forte. The treble feels close enough to my a grand, but the bass just feels like it gives way when I play forte. It's fairly easy to adjust, except when it isn't...


Yeah, but that voids the warranty...


Of course. I was just talking about what I want to do. I wouldn't recommend that for you with a new piano!

I really like the Roland action, so it would be a good solution for me. My piano isn't new, so I can butcher it!
Originally Posted by johnstaf
I've been thinking of adding lead wire to the hammers, and counterweights to the keys of my digital, so I feel more resistance when playing forte. The treble feels close enough to a grand, but the bass feels like it gives way too easily when I play forte. It's fairly easy to adjust, except when it isn't...


There have been folks who have epoxied additional weights to their DPs' hammers, I think there are a couple of posts on this forum detailing it (including how much weight they added, on the order of 3-5g IIRC).

But yeah, probably not something Chopin Acolyte would want to do with a brand new piano!
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Originally Posted by johnstaf
I've been thinking of adding lead wire to the hammers, and counterweights to the keys of my digital, so I feel more resistance when playing forte. The treble feels close enough to my a grand, but the bass just feels like it gives way when I play forte. It's fairly easy to adjust, except when it isn't...


Yeah, but that voids the warranty...

I still hope that I can return this if need be and buy something that really feels like a truck. I want the loud sound to be matched with the feel like I'm pushing a coal locomotive and soft sound with...well, I just want something equivalent to that Steinway in the music school, in my room, that's all. Shouldn't be that hard, right? laugh

Well, you should wait for me to overcome my laziness and finish my DIY grand piano controller and it turn out successful and generating some interest from enough people to turn that into business where I can order bare grand piano actions from Chinese manufacturers and that would be cheap enough to be a budget controller laugh Then people like you will have their “truck” heavy piano controllers at half the price of N1X laugh
Originally Posted by johnstaf


Of course. I was just talking about what I want to do. I wouldn't recommend that for you with a new piano!

I really like the Roland action, so it would be a good solution for me. My piano isn't new, so I can butcher it!


When I visited local <shop with name similar to "center for guitars"> I really really liked the touch of Roland Juno DS88, I loved that hard flapping feeling of the keys, it's hard to describe...but it felt more wooden...but it was a used piece on sale so I'm afraid it's taken already.

But since those are not returnable and I'm doubtful about the warranty, I could do the same thing shocked

I'm really starting to like Pianoteq, I modified the curve so it maxes out sooner and also gave it a bit of convexity, so it reacts more like a real piano. Now the annoying part is that some black keys don't play (at first I was like..."is my touch really that bad? Why isn't one of the keys in this octave playing?!") and I need to restart the whole thing after 20 minutes frown
If you really like it, you have to purchase it to not have those limitations smile Frankly, I’m impressed with your abilities and i would gladly transfer my Pianoteq Pro license to someone like you who will make good use of it but not sure if that’s possible since I was given that license by Philippe and didn’t purchase it myself, maybe that’s not allowed and maybe not fair... And it doesn’t include license for Bechstein DG, only some of the other models, I think Steinway B and Grotrian.
I’m amazed how you’ve made so much progress on practice pianos at school. Is that where you did all of your practicing and this is your first piano purchase?
Originally Posted by CyberGene
If you really like it, you have to purchase it to not have those limitations smile Frankly, I’m impressed with your abilities and i would gladly transfer my Pianoteq Pro license to someone like you who will make good use of it but not sure if that’s possible since I was given that license by Philippe and didn’t purchase it myself, maybe that’s not allowed and maybe not fair... And it doesn’t include license for Bechstein DG, only some of the other models, I think Steinway B and Grotrian.


You're too kind. smile I will test it more (maybe take my laptop to a music shop and if they still have that Juno DS, I can try it with Pianoteq) and then, the standard version is $250, which is alright.

Originally Posted by LarryK
I’m amazed how you’ve made so much progress on practice pianos at school. Is that where you did all of your practicing and this is your first piano purchase?


Actually, I've moved here only last August. I'd been living in Europe before that where I still have my Petrof from 40s, which I used to bang on 3hrs a day (not 40 frown ). After I'd moved here I discovered this music school which has like 50 practice piano rooms everyone can use, but when semester starts it's occupied by all those Ling Ling wannabees and Florida is so muddy this time of year (even standing outside makes you sweat) that I'm actually willing to spend money to buy something for my home practice to enjoy and tinker with (and also it's in tune all the time. Not that the music school pianos are not perfectly regulated, but sometimes the tuning slips when it's being practice on all day long, every day).

But technically, this is my first piano purchase, since the Petrof was handed down to me by my composition teacher (it was also handed down to her from her teacher).
I called to the shop to see whether they have Roland Juno DS88 still available...nope, someone bought it. So again, my only option, living in this shitty city, is to order it, test it and return it if I don't like it.

Does anyone know if Roland Juno DS88 has a triple pedal unit that supports half-pedaling? Neither googling or speaking to them helped. Also, they said it's and "old model" (discontinued?) so is there any "successor" model that has a perhaps even better or same action as Juno DS88? Thanks.
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
So again, my only option, living in this shitty city, is to order it, test it and return it if I don't like it.

So after 10 pages of this thread, the big thing I want to know is how you managed to get that past PW's profanity filter, when I can't even get he11 by, without swapping out letters. laugh laugh
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

So after 10 pages of this thread, the big thing I want to know is how you managed to get that past PW's profanity filter. laugh laugh


Lol, I don't know, I didn't even know there was a profanity filter. I read naughty words all over this forum. We shouldn't be offended by them unless it's aimed towards someone in particular (though, someone might take offense to me criticizing Tallahassee)
I’m honestly surprised you liked Juno DS88. I haven’t played it but it’s a workstation and those are not made for classical pianists and would rather be on the light side as keyboard action. And Roland in particular are known to make rather light feeling keyboards.
OK, I did a little research and it seems the Ivory Feel-G is indeed very heavy and tiring to play which people usually complain about smile But since you’re looking for that exactly, it may be indeed your thing. There are other Roland keyboards with that action too.
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
I called to the shop to see whether they have Roland Juno DS88 still available...nope, someone bought it. So again, my only option, living in this shitty city, is to order it, test it and return it if I don't like it.

Does anyone know if Roland Juno DS88 has a triple pedal unit that supports half-pedaling? Neither googling or speaking to them helped. Also, they said it's and "old model" (discontinued?) so is there any "successor" model that has a perhaps even better or same action as Juno DS88? Thanks.

I'd be surprised i the DS88 were discontinued. In the same line, they just introduced the DS76 (same electronics, different keys) late last year. Companies don't usually add to a line that is about to be phased out.

Demo of DS88 half pedal function:


For Pianoteq or other software piano, you can also get an adapter that will give you half-pedaling, even if your keyboard doesn't support it. See https://www.audiofront.net/MIDIExpression.php

Roland supports two pedals max, so no triple pedal unit. But you can use the audiofront adapters to get triple pedal input into your software piano.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
I’m honestly surprised you liked Juno DS88. I haven’t played it but it’s a workstation and those are not made for classical pianists

Companies who make 88-key workstations often use the same actions in piano models. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I believe the FP50 used the same action as the DS88. The FP60 is improved. but that doesn't mean that some might not prefer the feel of the older one, too.
Originally Posted by Pete14
‘Long to the pivot but then unnaturally short after that (GF/2)’. I’ve always been curious about the effect this has on the action.
If you look at the digitals with grand action (hybrids?) the key continues long after the pivot as compared to the GF/2 which ends fairly ‘short’ after the pivot.
The saying goes that ‘this doesn’t matter; what matters is the distance from the front of the key to the pivot’. If this is the case why not ‘end’ the key right at the pivot (for digitals)?


I would say that it does matter to the extent that the key needs to (almost) balanced around the pivot point. The length to the pivot point on the key side is what effects how you can play the keys close to or away from the fallboard. Its the weight*length of the key behind the pivot point that matters compared to the weight*length of the key ahead of the pivot point that effects the ability of the key to return upwards after releasing the key. If the length was zero behind the pivot point you would need infinite weight - so a compromise is made - the length is shorter (so the depth of the piano is less) so more weight (folded hammers or the like).

It is presumable a consequence that the hybrids like the Novus 10 and N1X (that have real/semi real grand actions) have much deeper cases.
I'm actually confused about the pivot length in actions in general...here's what I gathered from the internet (correct me if it's wrong):

From longest to shortest
GF II (higher end CA78/98)
GF (MP11se)
GF-C (CA48/58)
RM3 Grand II (VPC)

Heaviness:
RM3 Grand II (Kawai, hammers striking up) ~ NWX (Yamaha, folded)
GF II
GF-C
GF

At least for me GF felt so light that if something is even lighter, it'd be like caressing a cat.

Unfortunately, I don't remember where Roland Ivory Feel G falls in terms of heaviness, or pivot (didn't specifically try to play in between black keys). I haven't tried CA48/58, anyone has experience with the GF-C action in CA48/58? How does it feel?

I really wish manufacturers released more technical descriptions of their actions (better yet with up-to-scale models), rather than just "superb action, feels realistic, can't tell the difference, click here to buy".
Does anyone know which action between Yamaha's nwx and Kawai's rm3 grand ii has the longer pivot point?
Originally Posted by U3piano
Does anyone know which action between Yamaha's nwx and Kawai's rm3 grand ii has the longer pivot point?


From pictures, the NWX pivot distance appears to be greater.
What’s up with this pivot obsession?
John, which NWX pictures are you referring to?
Originally Posted by Pete14
What’s up with this pivot obsession?


Let's forget about pivot length and compare the heaviness...
Last I checked, my pivot was quite heavy. Yes, it’s a little harder to get it going, but once you do, it can be a very rewarding experience.
Originally Posted by akc42
Originally Posted by Pete14
‘Long to the pivot but then unnaturally short after that (GF/2)’. I’ve always been curious about the effect this has on the action.
If you look at the digitals with grand action (hybrids?) the key continues long after the pivot as compared to the GF/2 which ends fairly ‘short’ after the pivot.
The saying goes that ‘this doesn’t matter; what matters is the distance from the front of the key to the pivot’. If this is the case why not ‘end’ the key right at the pivot (for digitals)?


I would say that it does matter to the extent that the key needs to (almost) balanced around the pivot point. The length to the pivot point on the key side is what effects how you can play the keys close to or away from the fallboard. Its the weight*length of the key behind the pivot point that matters compared to the weight*length of the key ahead of the pivot point that effects the ability of the key to return upwards after releasing the key. If the length was zero behind the pivot point you would need infinite weight - so a compromise is made - the length is shorter (so the depth of the piano is less) so more weight (folded hammers or the like).

It is presumable a consequence that the hybrids like the Novus 10 and N1X (that have real/semi real grand actions) have much deeper cases.


You´re absolutely right! I think the right ratio between the 2 parts (front and behind) the pivot point is more important as a long pivot on the key side. The part behind the pivot makes the up -SWING. Only with weights you do not have a right swing. The ratio on the RM3Grand II is more balanced than the GF1/2 . Thats what I can feel under my fingers. The ideal would be the longer pivot of the GF with the ratio of the RM3Grand II. So the key of the GF has to be much longer at the part behind the pivot.
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Originally Posted by Pete14
What’s up with this pivot obsession?


Let's forget about pivot length and compare the heaviness...


Yes your graphic is right. The VPC is more heavy than all the GF Pianos. But as I checked out, the Millenium action in the best Kawai models is about the same heaviness as the RM3Grand2 ...

I think the VPC1 would be the right choice for you wink
Originally Posted by aphexdisklavier


Yes your graphic is right. The VPC is more heavy than all the GF Pianos. But as I checked out, the Millenium action in the best Kawai models is about the same heaviness as the RM3Grand2 ...

I think the VPC1 would be the right choice for you wink


Someone already thought that and got dissed pretty heavily for it laugh
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Originally Posted by aphexdisklavier


Yes your graphic is right. The VPC is more heavy than all the GF Pianos. But as I checked out, the Millenium action in the best Kawai models is about the same heaviness as the RM3Grand2 ...

I think the VPC1 would be the right choice for you wink


Someone already thought that and got dissed pretty heavily for it laugh

That's ok, that someone is apparently off practicing, so a new torchbearer is welcome. wink
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Originally Posted by aphexdisklavier


Yes your graphic is right. The VPC is more heavy than all the GF Pianos. But as I checked out, the Millenium action in the best Kawai models is about the same heaviness as the RM3Grand2 ...

I think the VPC1 would be the right choice for you wink


Someone already thought that and got dissed pretty heavily for it laugh


Yes but you have to know a lot of users here are more keyboardists than pianists. The VPC is more on the heavy side but there are much more heavy grands, pianos and even DP (a new clavinova I think was so heavy that I could not do a proper trill on the keys ;))
Originally Posted by aphexdisklavier
You´re absolutely right! I think the right ratio between the 2 parts (front and behind) the pivot point is more important as a long pivot on the key side. The part behind the pivot makes the up -SWING. Only with weights you do not have a right swing. The ratio on the RM3Grand II is more balanced than the GF1/2 . Thats what I can feel under my fingers. The ideal would be the longer pivot of the GF with the ratio of the RM3Grand II. So the key of the GF has to be much longer at the part behind the pivot.


You can't feel the effect of the length of the lever at the hammer end, provided the load is adjusted accordingly. That wouldn't make sense in terms of physics.

The only reason the length of the lever matters is that, with a longer lever at the key end, the leverage is more uniform over the playable area as, as this area is a smaller proportion of the lever. The lever at the other end acts at a single point, so this doesn't matter.

So how do we know if Kawai ‘adjusted the load accordingly’?
Originally Posted by Pete14
What’s up with this pivot obsession?


This.

Until quite recently it was never a matter of discussion here. It seems to be the latest fad. Like veganism.

Pivot point is just one tiny part of the overall puzzle. When judged alone it tells you nothing. There's a discussion on the technicians' forum at the moment about a Steinway D lacking sustain. The discourse within that thread from the technicians makes you realise that merely judging isolated factors such as pivot points or static down weights is a totally pointless exercise. And extremely boring in my opinion.
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by aphexdisklavier
You´re absolutely right! I think the right ratio between the 2 parts (front and behind) the pivot point is more important as a long pivot on the key side. The part behind the pivot makes the up -SWING. Only with weights you do not have a right swing. The ratio on the RM3Grand II is more balanced than the GF1/2 . Thats what I can feel under my fingers. The ideal would be the longer pivot of the GF with the ratio of the RM3Grand II. So the key of the GF has to be much longer at the part behind the pivot.


You can't feel the effect of the length of the lever at the hammer end, provided the load is adjusted accordingly. That wouldn't make sense in terms of physics.

The only reason the length of the lever matters is that, with a longer lever at the key end, the leverage is more uniform over the playable area as, as this area is a smaller proportion of the lever. The lever at the other end acts at a single point, so this doesn't matter.



This is exactly right.

Originally Posted by Pete14
So how do we know if Kawai ‘adjusted the load accordingly’?


Now that is the interesting bit and not just for Kawai, but all manufacturers. But that is where they have the opportunity to differentiate beyond the pivot length.

But the issues of keeping the leverage even on the playable area of the key as John says cannot be changed other than by varying the pivot length. There is no mystique beyond the piano manufacturers making it so and making it difficult to collate information about pivot length for all models. This is something that should be trivial for buyers to compare, so after quickly checking if it is long enough for their use, they should be able to then move on to comparing what else is important to them which is more subjective.

Originally Posted by Pete14
So how do we know if Kawai ‘adjusted the load accordingly’?


They didn't. They redesigned the action.

Had they wanted to use the exact same hammers, with the same weight, and the same hammer travel, simply moving the point of contact with respect to the hammer pivot point could have given the same leverage as the RM3.
Originally Posted by KevinM
There is no mystique beyond the piano manufacturers making it so and making it difficult to collate information about pivot length for all models. This is something that should be trivial for buyers to compare, so after quickly checking if it is long enough for their use, they should be able to then move on to comparing what else is important to them which is more subjective.


I think with PianoWorld we're lucky to have people take their pianos apart and post the results! grin
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by aphexdisklavier
You´re absolutely right! I think the right ratio between the 2 parts (front and behind) the pivot point is more important as a long pivot on the key side. The part behind the pivot makes the up -SWING. Only with weights you do not have a right swing. The ratio on the RM3Grand II is more balanced than the GF1/2 . Thats what I can feel under my fingers. The ideal would be the longer pivot of the GF with the ratio of the RM3Grand II. So the key of the GF has to be much longer at the part behind the pivot.


You can't feel the effect of the length of the lever at the hammer end, provided the load is adjusted accordingly. That wouldn't make sense in terms of physics.

The only reason the length of the lever matters is that, with a longer lever at the key end, the leverage is more uniform over the playable area as, as this area is a smaller proportion of the lever. The lever at the other end acts at a single point, so this doesn't matter.



i'm not a physicist, but i can imagine that it makes a difference if i just put a weight at the other end of the pivot point or a swing mass in the extension of the key. A swing is not the same as a weight. A weight can make the same pressure point but not necessarily the same swing behaviour.
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Originally Posted by aphexdisklavier


Yes your graphic is right. The VPC is more heavy than all the GF Pianos. But as I checked out, the Millenium action in the best Kawai models is about the same heaviness as the RM3Grand2 ...

I think the VPC1 would be the right choice for you wink


Someone already thought that and got dissed pretty heavily for it laugh

That's ok, that someone is apparently off practicing, so a new torchbearer is welcome. wink

But I’m here wink
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Originally Posted by aphexdisklavier


Yes your graphic is right. The VPC is more heavy than all the GF Pianos. But as I checked out, the Millenium action in the best Kawai models is about the same heaviness as the RM3Grand2 ...

I think the VPC1 would be the right choice for you wink


Someone already thought that and got dissed pretty heavily for it laugh

That's ok, that someone is apparently off practicing, so a new torchbearer is welcome. wink

But I’m here wink

You being here but without a VPC1 & Pianoteq defender around is like that zen koan: “What is the sound of one hand clapping?” laugh
Originally Posted by KevinM

But the issues of keeping the leverage even on the playable area of the key as John says cannot be changed other than by varying the pivot length. There is no mystique beyond the piano manufacturers making it so and making it difficult to collate information about pivot length for all models.

It's an important topic for pianists with small hands featuring a large thumb-finger-length-ratio. Maybe Japan-based digital piano manufacturers don't have this on their radar?
Just remembered some of the Fatar actions are very heavy. For instance the TP40 GH in the Dexibell H7. The first time I played I actually missed notes due to it being overly heavy and sluggish. I can’t actually think of heavier feeling digital keyboard. I haven’t tested the TP40 WOOD as in the Studiologic SL88 Grand. It might even be heavier. And even the TP100 LR in the SL88 Studio is heavy enough. Fatar actions are sometimes thought to be of lower quality. There are people who swear by them.
Originally Posted by aphexdisklavier

Yes but you have to know a lot of users here are more keyboardists than pianists. The VPC is more on the heavy side but there are much more heavy grands, pianos and even DP (a new clavinova I think was so heavy that I could not do a proper trill on the keys ;))


By new Clavinova you mean CLP 675/685? I've been thinking I'd wait a bit more and buy 675...only if I could try it beforehand smirk

Originally Posted by JoeT

It's an important topic for pianists with small hands featuring a large thumb-finger-length-ratio. Maybe Japan-based digital piano manufacturers don't have this on their radar?


My pinky is pretty short compared to other fingers, so when I play a chord with my thumb and pinky on black keys, the other fingers naturally fall on the keys pretty close to the fallboard...

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Just remembered some of the Fatar actions are very heavy. For instance the TP40 GH in the Dexibell H7. The first time I played I actually missed notes due to it being overly heavy and sluggish. I can’t actually think of heavier feeling digital keyboard. I haven’t tested the TP40 WOOD as in the Studiologic SL88 Grand. It might even be heavier. And even the TP100 LR in the SL88 Studio is heavy enough. Fatar actions are sometimes thought to be of lower quality. There are people who swear by them.


Thanks for the tip!



I'm not sure how long I can exploit the <shop with name similar to "center for guitars">'s generous return policy and keep buying and returning instruments after I discover I don't quite like the feeling laugh
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
[quote=aphexdisklavier]
Yes but you have to know a lot of users here are more keyboardists than pianists. The VPC is more on the heavy side but there are much more heavy grands, pianos and even DP (a new clavinova I think was so heavy that I could not do a proper trill on the keys ;))


By new Clavinova you mean CLP 675/685? I've been thinking I'd wait a bit more and buy 675...only if I could try it beforehand smirk

[quote=JoeT]

Yes its the CLP 685. Watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEKFGkR6KAk&t=503s
Its really to hard for my taste...you can´t play fast passages without the greatest efforts.
Buy the VPC1 - thats all I can say. ....and say good bye to that threat ;))
Originally Posted by aphexdisklavier

Yes its the CLP 685. Watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEKFGkR6KAk&t=503s
Its really to hard for my taste...you can´t play fast passages without the greatest efforts.
Buy the VPC1 - thats all I can say. ....and say good bye to that threat ;))


I like heavy actions.

First of all, it seems that 675 and 685 share the same action. I'd like to know how different AvantGrand is from CLP-675...675 also claims to have "grand touch" keyboard action...I wish there were some models of action available. It might be worth to wait a bit and save bucks for something better than to stick with something I don't love.

I hope I'll get to Atlanta sometime to try them out.
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte

Now, just a couple of days ago I recorded myself playing The Military Polonaise by Chopin on the Steinway, so I thought that I might record the same piece on Yamaha. Let's hear it:


For reference, played on Steinway:

Off topic. I’m already making myself a name of the forum score nazi and I hope you won’t find it rude but I see you make some mistakes in all the repeats and in both videos and I believe it’s a matter of score misread. There’s many of them, but just for instance in the first measure, the last four sixteenths in the left hand, bottom to top, should be A-E-B and not A-E-A. In both measures 13 and 14 (if omitting the repeats) in the last chord the highest note is B# (i.e. C enharmonically), etc, etc. Just make sure you go through the entire score and check correct notes and accidentals. But you play it with great feeling and you have terrible technique! Kudos to you smile
Originally Posted by CyberGene
and you have terrible technique!

You sure about that?

ter·​ri·​ble | \ ˈter-ə-bəl , ˈte-rə-\

Definition of terrible
1 : extremely bad: such as
a : notably unattractive or objectionable
terrible behavior
b : of very poor quality
a terrible movie
c : strongly repulsive : OBNOXIOUS
a terrible smell
Originally Posted by CyberGene

Off topic. I’m already making myself a name of the forum score nazi and I hope you won’t find it rude but I see you make some mistakes in all the repeats and in both videos and I believe it’s a matter of score misread. There’s many of them, but just for instance in the first measure, the last four sixteenths in the left hand, bottom to top, should be A-E-B and not A-E-A. In both measures 13 and 14 (if omitting the repeats) in the last chord the highest note is B# (i.e. C enharmonically), etc, etc. Just make sure you go through the entire score and check correct notes and accidentals. But you play it with great feeling and you have terrible technique! Kudos to you smile


I'm sorry for my terrible technique frown what do you suggest I should improve in terms of my technique? Frankly that concerns me more than playing wrong notes (not because I missed them, but I misread them)...wrong notes can be corrected easily by looking at the score again, terrible technique is a rather long and meticulous fix...

The first bar I really play A-E-B (second bar in my score is regular A-E-A until the last one before the arpeggio), however I voiced it so the A is louder. I am especially careful about this chord as it's a slightly bigger one that one would be used to most (a 9th opposed to an octave)...

I thought you'd point out me not playing the semiquaver triplet (I just played it as a semiquaver instead) in the third page theme laugh (both in g major, and d major harmonies right hand)

I totally get it, Chopin is something we should not butcher...it was so long ago (about 8 years ago) I read this and I guess I learned it with mistakes...I have to go through it again sometimes and kinda "forget" what I learned originally...

It's the same as Alla Turca...I learned that the first year into playing and I picked up a terrible fingering in the #F theme...tried to re-learn it but the muscle memory keeps slipping back.
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte

I like heavy actions.

First of all, it seems that 675 and 685 share the same action. I'd like to know how different AvantGrand is from CLP-675...675 also claims to have "grand touch" keyboard action...I wish there were some models of action available. It might be worth to wait a bit and save bucks for something better than to stick with something I don't love.

I hope I'll get to Atlanta sometime to try them out.


The 675 has no counterweights in the keys, the 685 and 695 have. It's an unusual design in that the keys don't pivot around a pin, like the NWX, but they bend. AvantGrand is mostly a grand piano action.
Originally Posted by johnstaf

The 675 has no counterweights in the keys, the 685 and 695 have. It's an unusual design in that the keys don't pivot around a pin, like the NWX, but they bend. AvantGrand is mostly a grand piano action.


I think I'll want to try Casio GP300, it seems more likely to be affordable for me with a little bit more of saving and it's action looks amazing. Looks can defy, though. Therefore, I have to try.
Sorry, lost in translation moment! Didn’t mean terrible technique! I meant GREAT technique. Not sure why I used terrible...
CyberGene, there is also "terrific", if you want to use that. wink
For some weird reason, and mainly because English is not my native language I always thought “terrible” means great, used for praise. Thanks to Joe and checking my dictionary I realized it meant totally the opposite. I feel extremely dumb right now.

Your technique is twice better than mine for half the time, so I’m in no position to criticize your technique. And it’s really great IMO! I mean it. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

As to the wrong notes, yes, those are fixable:)
Originally Posted by JoeT
CyberGene, there is also "terrific", if you want to use that. wink

This isn’t real, I feel even dumber. Indeed I know “terrific” and that’s what I meant but in a (disturbingly not so rare as of late) moment I totally forgot it... I hope it’s because I’m on a vacation with the family and had almost no sleep in the last days. (And not because of the age and dementia... smile )
Originally Posted by JoeT
CyberGene, there is also "terrific", if you want to use that. wink


Originally Posted by CyberGene
For some weird reason, and mainly because English is not my native language I always thought “terrible” means great, used for praise. Thanks to Joe and checking my dictionary I realized it meant totally the opposite. I feel extremely dumb right now.

Your technique is twice better than mine for half the time, so I’m in no position to criticize your technique. And it’s really great IMO! I mean it. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

As to the wrong notes, yes, those are fixable:)


Yep, probably meant terrific smile

I'm still confused about that A-E-B thing...I'm 99% sure I was playing it smirk What I'm more concerned about is that semiquaver triplet in the D major theme (5th measure into the theme)...I think I skipped it and replaced it by just semiquaver chords, because I was lazy. Also, I suck at polyrhythms. I wish I had one of those metronomes that would come with various polyrhythms to get a better feeling of it. I guess I'll go back into tempo 50 and redo the whole piece. That's a good practice anyway. One time I read something along "you're really ready to perform the piece only if you learn it, forget it and re-learn it again", or something like that. It's totally true. The first time, when one gets nervous, muscle memory gives up and mind is sometimes no longer in that state of note-by-note knowledge of the piece.
Regarding the A-E-B, well I don’t hear the B enough, maybe it’s masked by the more louder other notes but it’s the one that gives the differing “color” of that chord, compared to the pure A major of the first chord.
It's very strange, but a (little?) known phenomenon. It should be blindingly obvious that CG can't have meant "terrible", as
A) he's already highly praised Acolyte's playing, and
B) His following sentence (after "terrible) is more high praise, with the "kudos" remark.
So...must be a vocab error.
It certainly is a remarkable phenomenon...(the core of my current project, non-music related). [/offtopic]
Originally Posted by thickfingers
It's very strange, but a (little?) known phenomenon. It should be blindingly obvious that CG can't have meant "terrible", as
A) he's already highly praised Acolyte's playing, and
B) His following sentence (after "terrible) is more high praise, with the "kudos" remark.
So...must be a vocab error.
It certainly is a remarkable phenomenon...(the core of my current project, non-music related). [/offtopic]


Are you a linguist major? That's nice
What’s more “terrible” is that sometimes I do that while speaking in my native language, using a word that sounds similar but is the wrong word and can happen to be the opposite of what I meant. However I realize it with some slight delay and correct myself. Not with English though frown I still struggle constructing even some simple sentences from time to time and constantly try to remember grammar rules, etc.

On the other hand I’ve been fascinated all my life with puns which originated with me always imagining closely sounding words from other words even as a kid. That has caused me problems in school since I would respond with puns to teachers. And with girlfriends laugh
Originally Posted by CyberGene
What’s more “terrible” is that sometimes I do that while speaking in my native language, using a word that sounds similar but is the wrong word and can happen to be the opposite of what I meant. However I realize it with some slight delay and correct myself. Not with English though frown I still struggle constructing even some simple sentences from time to time and constantly try to remember grammar rules, etc.

On the other hand I’ve been fascinated all my life with puns which originated with me always imagining closely sounding words from other words even as a kid. That has caused me problems in school since I would respond with puns to teachers. And with girlfriends laugh


I'm clumsy when speaking in my language even. Sometimes I say weird stuff...but last time when my roommate mentioned he has to have his bow rehaired, I asked him "so when are you going to get your hair rebowed?" and we looked at each other weirdly for a sec... laugh

Or in a shop, I needed some Kleenex (a brand of tissues) and sometimes a word slips out of my mind...so I said "I need some Kleenex, for my uh...nose". And we laughed for good 10 minutes, like "sure, sure, let's get some Kleenex for your...nose", wink laugh (I made an awkward pause before "nose" so it probably looked like I'm looking for a reason to buy 4 packs of soft tissues)
LOL, tell me about talking awkward. And then wanting to smash my head from embarrassment...

I remember recently I wrote something like “banging on the keys all night” here, and EssBrace responded that I should bang somewhere else laugh
Originally Posted by CyberGene
LOL, tell me about talking awkward. And then wanting to smash my head from embarrassment...

I remember recently I wrote something like “banging on the keys all night” here, and EssBrace responded that I should bang somewhere else laugh


Nothing wrong with banging the keys all night long wink You gotta do what you love! Youknow, girls, they come and go...but piano, that's one true passion we should not neglect.
Well, you know, pianos come and go too... Just look at my signature laugh
In French language, we have a “terrible” word which means terrific... but Google traduction propose terrible instead !
I had to google translate "traduction". It translates to "translate". How terrible!
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
In French language, we have a “terrible” word which means terrific... but Google traduction propose terrible instead !
Originally Posted by CyberGene
For some weird reason, and mainly because English is not my native language I always thought “terrible” means great, used for praise. Thanks to Joe and checking my dictionary I realized it meant totally the opposite. I feel extremely dumb right now.

Don't worry, I used to confuse terrible and terrific as well. English isn't my native language either.
Hardly surprising that such gaffes occur, with the magnitude of the perversion (sorry for the verbosity, no other way to put it) that the word in question has undergone, over time. How it occurred can only be boggled at (if you have the time).
It's sister word "horrific" means exactly what you'd expect, being an adjectivisation of the noun. The similar process applied to "terror", somehow, has evolved to mean "fabulous"! Virtually the opposite .
Funny language. Don't envy an adult foreigner trying to learn it.
Have to say, can't denigrate this Bulgarian's grasp of it, whenever he learned it.
That means, gentlemen, that we had here an unexpected accident. I rest my case--regardless of the indignantly qualified nature of the defendant, he should be acquitted of the "terrible" charge.
[/offtopic]
English is a terribly complex and treacherous language. "You played terribly" and "You played terribly well" have opposite meanings. In other words, 'terribly' means 'awful' or 'atrociously' etc, or 'very' or 'exceptionally' etc, depending upon the context.
Treachery is right. It's a language for deceit, and has been perverted over centuries for just that reason. "White man speak with forked tongue!" sick
If you think English is difficult try Bulgarian laugh I think it’s just me who sucks at foreign languages.
Terrible has many meanings, including terrifying, horrifying, dreadful, appalling, frightful, and sickening.
Long ago it was sometimes used as a simple superlative upon the following adjective, and might not indicate anything bad at all.
Modern usage has dispensed with the latter and it's almost always used to denote something bad.

Anyway ... welcome to the mis-stated phrase club, CG. For reference see My Big Fat Greek Wedding.
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Terrible has many meanings, including terrifying, horrifying, dreadful, appalling, frightful, and sickening.
Long ago it was sometimes used as a simple superlative upon the following adjective, and might not indicate anything bad at all.
Modern usage has dispensed with the latter and it's almost always used to denote something bad.

It's actually the reverse. It started with the word "terrible" meaning something bad, and then with the ly ending, was subsequently used as an adverb (which I think is what you mean by "superlative upon the following adjective") for emphasis of something bad... and eventually started getting used for emphasis regardless of whether it was emphasizing something bad or something good.

See https://www.etymonline.com/word/terrible for the original word and https://english.stackexchange.com/q...ribly-come-to-mean-very-or-exceptionally for its subsequent evolution first as a negative and then neutral (i.e. "either way") intensifier.
Thanks for the link anotherscott, that's terribly interesting! wink

It's perhaps even more confusing (to non-native speakers) when combined with a negative, e.g. "not terribly good".

James
x
Just to kinda get to the original topic...the VPC-1 is still listed with 10% discount (+free delivery) on that online store website (total $1664.10)...even though the "sale" ended! However, it happened to me in the past that just when I hit that "order" button the site gave me an error, i.e. the business retracted from that offer. I'm tempted to order it, but since the store itself is in NY, I'd have a hard time returning it.

I want to try Casio GP300, I saw videos from Bonners and the keys are SUPER long and it looks very nice (also the moving hammers one sees when the lid is open are cute). However...
1) (most disconcerting) I heard people here on PW complain a lot about GP300 (cheap build quality, wobble, bad sound...), so in that case it's not worth that price
2) from what I seen it lacks escapement. Again, one can argue how useful the escapement notch is since 99.999% of interacting with piano is spent by pressing keys so that they make an actual sound, not playing around with notch so slight that it won't even make a sound... (I found escapement on Kawai GF also very slight)


I wish there were stores like Bonners in the US smirk Bonners seem to have EVERYTHING, mainly high-end Casio, Yamaha and Kawai.
GP300 isn’t worth it IMO. Try again the VPC1 if possible again to see if it’s heavy enough. I don’t think it’s heavier feeling than the P515. From there on you should try Fatar keyboards just for reference, also CLP-675 although it’s expensive. Of course DS88 as you seem to like it.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
GP300 isn’t worth it IMO. Try again the VPC1 if possible again to see if it’s heavy enough. I don’t think it’s heavier feeling than the P515. From there on you should try Fatar keyboards just for reference, also CLP-675 although it’s expensive. Of course DS88 as you seem to like it.


I wonder if the difference between Clavinova 675 and 685 is heavier touch of 685...but again, that price point frown frown

Never heard about Fatar, never even seen one in stores shocked

So Juno DS88 uses Ivory G action with escapement, which is rarely mentioned by Roland themselves (what really shocks me that they say "synth action"...when I see synth action I think of springs). I wonder how PHA-50 feels in FP-90...heavier or lighter? I tried FP-80 and it also felt pretty fine.
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte


I want to try Casio GP300, I saw videos from Bonners and the keys are SUPER long and it looks very nice (also the moving hammers one sees when the lid is open are cute). However...


The keys aren't really very long. IIRC the length on the player's side of the pivot is fairly average for a good DP. It's probably close to the GF Compact.
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Originally Posted by CyberGene
GP300 isn’t worth it IMO. Try again the VPC1 if possible again to see if it’s heavy enough. I don’t think it’s heavier feeling than the P515. From there on you should try Fatar keyboards just for reference, also CLP-675 although it’s expensive. Of course DS88 as you seem to like it.


I wonder if the difference between Clavinova 675 and 685 is heavier touch of 685...but again, that price point frown frown

Never heard about Fatar, never even seen one in stores shocked

So Juno DS88 uses Ivory G action with escapement, which is rarely mentioned by Roland themselves (what really shocks me that they say "synth action"...when I see synth action I think of springs). I wonder how PHA-50 feels in FP-90...heavier or lighter? I tried FP-80 and it also felt pretty fine.


When I bought my FP90, I could have bought the CLP-675 for the same price. Sometimes bargains can be had.
Originally Posted by johnstaf

The keys aren't really very long. IIRC the length on the player's side of the pivot is fairly average for a good DP. It's probably close to the GF Compact.


I know, the length of the part that pianist touches is average, but it's long behind the pivot, which made me thinking that it should feel heavy...right? Like a see-saw...the longer the other side is the less mass you need there to balance your force.

Originally Posted by johnstaf

When I bought my FP90, I could have bought the CLP-675 for the same price. Sometimes bargains can be had.


Yeah, you're living in United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, where prices are MUCH better than here in the US. It's absolutely maddening, when I compare what I would pay in UK or (continental) Europe to what they ask here...

Whenever I check prices in European online stores I see the message that Kawai is blocking trade to US (even asked Thomann over email, they said it's "competition law")...Kawai is so shady with this, they know americans would pay anything, so they set the price points higher...we can argue semantics again, but to me, this is a ripoff.
Fatar is an Italian keyboard action brand and they provide actions to Dexibell, Nord, Kurzweil and others. They have their own brand of MIDI controllers Studiologic. They have different models and variations of actions. On their spec sheet they also state they have different levels of weighting for manufacturers to choose. I believe most choose the lighter or medium varieties since most people prefer lighter actions smile

P.S. among those I’ve tried Dexibell H7 and it was really heavy! I’ve heard Studiologic SL88 Grand (not Studio!) is also quite a workout. I’ll soon receive the Studio version which I’m gonna use for jams and gigs and will let you know if it’s comparable to my N1X which is a real grand action and the heaviest among all my digital pianos so far.
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
...Kawai is so shady with this.


Do you know if Yamaha, Roland, Casio, etc. have a different policy?

(honest question)
chopin acolyte: I think your search is going in the wrong direction. You only search for very heavy actions. But there are so many components what makes up a action. I have also my old Yamaha P-120 that has a harder action than the VPC1 but I really don`t want to play this action anymore. It far too simple (only weight) in its reaction what your finger does. So really can not imagine that the VPC would be too light for you (never heard anybody talking like that). For those who don´like it, it is only too heavy...
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
...Kawai is so shady with this.


Do you know if Yamaha, Roland, Casio, etc. have a different policy?

As far as I know you can order the other manufacturers from Europe in the US without issues. Thomann happily ships their products over the pond.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Fatar is an Italian keyboard action brand and they provide actions to Dexibell, Nord, Kurzweil and others. They have their own brand of MIDI controllers Studiologic. They have different models and variations of actions. On their spec sheet they also state they have different levels of weighting for manufacturers to choose. I believe most choose the lighter or medium varieties since most people prefer lighter actions smile

P.S. among those I’ve tried Dexibell H7 and it was really heavy! I’ve heard Studiologic SL88 Grand (not Studio!) is also quite a workout. I’ll soon receive the Studio version which I’m gonna use for jams and gigs and will let you know if it’s comparable to my N1X which is a real grand action and the heaviest among all my digital pianos so far.


Whoah, SL88 Grand costs below $1000, if it feels good that would be a steal. However, it seems like it's a folding action. (not sure if that's a bad thing) Not sure about the escapement, either.

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
...Kawai is so shady with this.


Do you know if Yamaha, Roland, Casio, etc. have a different policy?

(honest question)


"We are quite disappointed with Yamaha for preventing us from shipping to your country of choice. Please consider products of a different manufacturer or switch to another delivery country."

"We are quite disappointed with Casio for preventing us from shipping to your country of choice. Please consider products of a different manufacturer or switch to another delivery country."

"We are quite disappointed with Roland for preventing us from shipping to your country of choice. Please consider products of a different manufacturer or switch to another delivery country."

Well, I am disappointed as well smirk Also, all products are significantly cheaper in Europe than in the US. So shady.
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
...Kawai is so shady with this.


Do you know if Yamaha, Roland, Casio, etc. have a different policy?

As far as I know you can order the other manufacturers from Europe in the US without issues. Thomann happily ships their products over the pond.


Nope, those quotes (see my post higher) are from Thomann.
I remember checking some Yamaha DPs few years back and they were cheaper in US. On the other hand, Kawai is terribly well priced here, in Europe wink It's Europe revenge for US car prices! European so called "premium" cars in basic versions, with some girly small engines, cost over a dozen perecent more here, in countries of their origin, than nice equipped ones in States.
BTW, I knew a classical pianist, top gun, he won competitions, he taught students and he tried different digital pianos and ultimately liked some of the old Studiologic keyboards the most but can’t remember well, was it the SL990... He swore by it and thought it was closest to a real grand which I always found ludicrous. Anyway. (He passed away a few years ago, rest in peace my friend frown )
Originally Posted by AlphaBravoCharlie
I remember checking some Yamaha DPs few years back and they were cheaper in US. On the other hand, Kawai is terribly well priced here, in Europe wink It's Europe revenge for US car prices! European so called "premium" cars in basic versions, with some girly small engines, cost over a dozen perecent more here, in countries of their origin, than nice equipped ones in States.


Haha, as far as cars are concerned, the smaller the better (for me). I don't quite understand why a single person must be driving a truck on huge tires with mileage and smell of a tank...

Originally Posted by CyberGene
BTW, I knew a classical pianist, top gun, he won competitions, he taught students and he tried different digital pianos and ultimately liked some of the old Studiologic keyboards the most but can’t remember well, was it the SL990... He swore by it and thought it was closest to a real grand which I always found ludicrous. Anyway. (He passed away a few years ago, rest in peace my friend frown )


Yep, that's totally believable. Even Juno DS88 I liked is probably an older thing usually not considered for a classical music practice...and yet...
Originally Posted by Kawai James

It's perhaps even more confusing (to non-native speakers) when combined with a negative, e.g. "not terribly good".

Now, what that that means exactly? It’s good but you don’t like it? Or it’s bad but you like it?
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Kawai James

It's perhaps even more confusing (to non-native speakers) when combined with a negative, e.g. "not terribly good".

Now, what that that means exactly? It’s good but you don’t like it? Or it’s bad but you like it?


It essentially just means "not very good" or "not so good", which is a little above "bad" on my not-terribly-objective scale of subjectivity.

James
x
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
...Kawai is so shady with this.


Do you know if Yamaha, Roland, Casio, etc. have a different policy?

(honest question)


"We are quite disappointed with Yamaha for preventing us from shipping to your country of choice. Please consider products of a different manufacturer or switch to another delivery country."

"We are quite disappointed with Casio for preventing us from shipping to your country of choice. Please consider products of a different manufacturer or switch to another delivery country."

"We are quite disappointed with Roland for preventing us from shipping to your country of choice. Please consider products of a different manufacturer or switch to another delivery country."


Thank you for checking.

James
x
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte

Yeah, you're living in United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, where prices are MUCH better than here in the US. It's absolutely maddening, when I compare what I would pay in UK or (continental) Europe to what they ask here...


I live in Ireland, not the UK.

Prices here can be pretty dreadful. I import from the UK or Germany a lot of the time.
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte

"We are quite disappointed with Yamaha for preventing us from shipping to your country of choice. Please consider products of a different manufacturer or switch to another delivery country."

"We are quite disappointed with Casio for preventing us from shipping to your country of choice. Please consider products of a different manufacturer or switch to another delivery country."

"We are quite disappointed with Roland for preventing us from shipping to your country of choice. Please consider products of a different manufacturer or switch to another delivery country."

The cartel wink must have changed that recently. Last time I checked I could go through with the order to the US after removing Kawai. (I stopped at entering the payment information.) It made sense, because it was the only brand where you could gain actual savings by shipping overseas.

Originally Posted by AlphaBravoCharlie
I remember checking some Yamaha DPs few years back and they were cheaper in US. On the other hand, Kawai is terribly well priced here, in Europe wink It's Europe revenge for US car prices! European so called "premium" cars in basic versions, with some girly small engines, cost over a dozen perecent more here, in countries of their origin, than nice equipped ones in States.

These "European" car brands are made in the states or in Mexico for foreign markets. Except for luxury sports cars the country of origin usually isn't what you expect.

Also don't forget to always compare net pricing before taxes.
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
...Kawai is so shady with this.


Do you know if Yamaha, Roland, Casio, etc. have a different policy?

(honest question)


This is a god-awful, terribly good question. cool
Frightfully good!
Not terribly good = not very good = a euphemism, like "not brilliant". Used for "something other than brilliant (you work it out, so I can't get in trouble for saying it)".
Basically, you're saying "it's not right at the (positive) end of the quality spectrum. It's...somewhere else." A good guess would be, you think it's crap. But would rather not say it.
Blame it on Bulgaria!
Whilst I was in playing on the NU1X my dealer was also playing on an old Chappell upright which is probably going for around £300. Thought it sounded better than the NU1X. We looked inside and the hammers and everything looked good.
Thomann used to ship those brands to the U.S., so there has been a policy change. It's a shame... I've bought a couple of Kawai items from there simply because Kawai didn't sell them in the U.S. ... a nice carrying bag for the MP7, and a white version of the ES100.

Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte

So Juno DS88 uses Ivory G action with escapement, which is rarely mentioned by Roland themselves (what really shocks me that they say "synth action"...when I see synth action I think of springs).

I'm not sure exactly what you're saying here, about actions being rarely mentioned, or what's shocking about a board having synth action. But Roland always tells you which specific action they are using in any of their hammer action boards. (Not in their un/semi weighteds, though.) Synth actions can have springs, or they can be simple flexing plastic. Either way. something labeled synth action is not what you're looking for.
Originally Posted by Colin Miles
Whilst I was in playing on the NU1X my dealer was also playing on an old Chappell upright which is probably going for around £300. Thought it sounded better than the NU1X. We looked inside and the hammers and everything looked good.


In my case, it's usually the opposite. I very rarely encounter upright that sounds on pair with high-end digital. Probably because most of DPs carry grand piano samples and I believe at least part of manufacturers try to immitate grand piano, not upright action. There are so many un-playable, over-heavy action, out-of tune uprights out there.
Sorry for resurrecting an "old" thread, but...

I pulled the trigger on VPC-1 still discounted for $1664.10. It seemed to me like the whole universe is hinting on buying that thus hitting me in the eye with that discount repeatedly.

A few days ago I also ordered Sennheiser 6xx headphones from (mass)drop for $250. My roommate has Sennheiser HD558 which I totally love, but, unfortunately, it's discontinued so I went for something similar in price and I'm sure Sennheiser do a great job on whichever headphones I buy in the same price range.

I still have the trial Pianoteq version and if there's a trial Ravenscroft version I can try both and decide which to buy.

If everything works out great, I will consider some good stand or make my own, or buy a sturdy table (with metal legs) dedicated to the thing
If you’re willing to try sampled pianos I would recommend Garritan CFX and not Ravenscroft. The Garritan seems to be the more liked piano IMO. The lite version costs $70. If you decide to use it, you should also check a re-pedaling fix that I have prepared. Let me know and I’ll send you the thread where I described the settings.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
If you’re willing to try sampled pianos I would recommend Garritan CFX and not Ravenscroft. The Garritan seems to be the more liked piano IMO. The lite version costs $70. If you decide to use it, you should also check a re-pedaling fix that I have prepared. Let me know and I’ll send you the thread where I described the settings.


Thx for the tip! I'll see if I can find a trial version. I'll try a lot of trials and decide upon that. I like that even in trial version of Pianoteq I could modify the (global) velocity curve to account for that crappy Yamaha signal. I hope other trial versions are as tweakable as Pianoteq.

I sure will let you know if I get Garritan CFX smile
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
I pulled the trigger on VPC-1

Will you have the opportunity to play it side by side with the P515? Or is the P515 on its way back?
Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
I pulled the trigger on VPC-1

Will you have the opportunity to play it side by side with the P515? Or is the P515 on its way back?


I already returned P515...and VPC-1 is cheaper.
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
I already returned P515...and VPC-1 is cheaper.

Aren't you at all concerned that CG may take that as a personal affront, being as it is a vindication of Jethro's (CG's arch enemy) advice? You know what gets his dander up. It could be taken as spiteful, insulting, totally unwarranted treachery... sick
Originally Posted by thickfingers
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
I already returned P515...and VPC-1 is cheaper.

Aren't you at all concerned that CG may take that as a personal affront, being as it is a vindication of Jethro's (CG's arch enemy) advice? You know what gets his dander up. It could be taken as spiteful, insulting, totally unwarranted treachery... sick

Tsk tsk! No baiting!

OK! Time for a group hug!

[Linked Image]
If I have more time I will check out "NOIRE" http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2831245/native-instruments-noire-piano.html
I am very curious how you find the VPC1...
NOIRE vs Ravenscroft vs Keyscape: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2G0xMRdjDM
Originally Posted by thickfingers

Aren't you at all concerned that CG may take that as a personal affront, being as it is a vindication of Jethro's (CG's arch enemy) advice? You know what gets his dander up. It could be taken as spiteful, insulting, totally unwarranted treachery... sick


CG is an adult human being who can take some (emotional) abuse without flipping over (hopefully) ^^ even if it means I'm not keeping his favourite instrument and opted out for his (arch)enemy's favourite instrument... A group hug is definitely in place, though, we can all feel hugged by music, if I, or anyone else, choose to again upload something, this time from combo VPC+a software. I'm tempted to record various samples and just listen to it back (my listening abilities are a bit hindered while I'm playing, in a way that I don't pay too much attention to the quality of the timbre (unless it's totally horrendous, or the instrument is not in tune with itself*), but rather to phrasing).

It's funny how Jethro haven't spoken up ever since. You haven't gotten the poor lad banned, now, have you?!

Originally Posted by aphexdisklavier
If I have more time I will check out "NOIRE" http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2831245/native-instruments-noire-piano.html
I am very curious how you find the VPC1...


Thank you for the tip! I watched Woody's shack channel playing on youtube and didn't find it exactly impressive (in terms of sound! I'm not commenting on his playing)


*a funny thing - our practice pianos are usually tuned very frequently and they are well in tune, but one time when I played, Bb5 was not in tune WITH ITSELF (the unisons were somehow mismatched), it was SO weird. How come an instrument that is tuned perhaps on a weekly basis (it was fixed shortly after, as when I practiced a couple of days later, it was in tune again), can develop this discrepancy...I thought that after so many tunings, when the instrument is well settled in tune, it goes out of tune very slowly and rather consistently...very funny phenomenon.
I think there’s some mistake here smile I started participating actively in this thread after you had already ordered a P515. Somebody else might have recommended it. It has never been my favorite instrument and I previously posted a review here a few months ago that I didn’t like it smile I don’t care for either P515 or VPC1, I don’t like either. My favorite instrument is my N1X but it wouldn’t be fair to compare that with those keyboards or Pianoteq. Now, speaking of Pianoteq, if you mean that, then yeah it’s not my favorite but I don’t care if you end up loving it. There are people who do and others who don’t. What I don’t like is the extreme zealots who would aggressively praise Pianoteq and would claim people who like sampled pianos are inexperienced. There were some pretty stupid analogies of Pianoteq being like explaining sex to kids which was utterly stupid and arrogant. And then there were some remarks involving my persona which I explicitly didn’t like and I explicitly requested for that to stop. That’s it smile If you end up loving Pianoteq, that’s perfectly fine with me, you won’t be the first, you won’t be the last. But at least you’ve tried and decided for yourself rather than just accepting an authority’s biased, arrogant and totalitarian direction at it.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I think there’s some mistake here smile I started participating in this thread after you had already ordered a P515. Somebody else might have recommended it. It has never been my favorite instrument and I have previously posted a review here a few months ago that I didn’t like it smile I don’t care for either P515 or VPC1, I don’t like either. My favorite instrument is my N1X but it wouldn’t be fair to compare that with those keyboards or Pianoteq. Now, speaking of Pianoteq, if you mean that, then yeah it’s not my favorite but I don’t care if you end up loving it. There are people who do and others who don’t. What I don’t like is the extreme zealots who would aggressively praise Pianoteq and would claim people who like sampled pianos are inexperienced. There were some pretty stupid analogies of Pianoteq being like explaining sex to kids which was utterly stupid and arrogant. And then there were some remarks involving my persona which I explicitly didn’t like and I explicitly requested for that to stop. That’s it smile If you end up loving Pianoteq, that’s perfectly fine with me, you won’t be the first, you won’t be the last. But at least you’ve tried and decided for yourself rather than just accepting an authority biased and arrogant totalitarian direction at it.


I was just joking :P

I'll try Pianoteq the first thing, since I already installed the trial version. I will also likely try Ravenscroft, Garrison CFX and Noire, since they were recommended. I liked pianoteq because of the velocity curve, I could tweak it so that I could get a bit of that feeling that a lot of bashing gives me a lot of sound.

On a side note: how does one make enough dough for N1X shocked shocked My dream ("when I'm big", "when I grow up") is to have my very own Steinway grand I can play on ^_^

P.S.: or Bosendorfer. Not sure yet.
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
It's funny how Jethro haven't spoken up ever since. You haven't gotten the poor lad banned, now, have you?!

He must be back to practicing his piano, as all of us should probably be! smile
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
On a side note: how does one make enough dough for N1X shocked shocked My dream ("when I'm big", "when I grow up") is to have my very own Steinway grand I can play on ^_^

P.S.: or Bosendorfer. Not sure yet.

Well, that’s a long story. I think it’s kind of similar to your story in a way smile But on a smaller scale. My parents wanted me to play piano when I was a kid. I aggressively rejected it and preferred math and physics. So they abandoned that. When I was 15 I heard my mom play Bach on the piano and I was blown away by that music. I wanted to play Bach. She showed it to me, I learned it. Then I went to a teacher, an old granny who taught me how to read notes and refused teaching Bach, so after a month I continued on my own because I could read scores and that was enough, at least that’s what I thought. I played for 4 years day and night (Bach only), then discovered jazz. Then I moved to the capital to study physics in the university. Lack of piano to play was an absolute horror to me. I couldn’t move my upright and my family was too poor for me to buy a digital piano at the time. Even the cheapest one. Well, my mom even told me she is struggling sending me money for food... But I wanted a piano very badly. So, around 2000 the IT industry was gaining traction in Bulgaria. I’ve had a computer as a kid and even programmed some stuff on it. So I thought, well, I’m a physicist but there’s money in IT but I love piano. Maybe I could learn how to code in Java, work for a company until I save $1000 for a Yamaha P80, then leave and keep on with physics. It all worked but I never left smile Easy money spoil. And I left the university. 20 years later I have a great job. I managed to save some. I changed a lot of digital pianos but was never happy. And then, I never imagined I would spend more than €1500 for a digital piano. But I’m turning 40 this year. Call it mid life crisis but I realized I live only once. I can afford to buy a hybrid piano. Piano is my big love! I can be dead tomorrow... And so I have a N1X now smile Do I deserve it? Probably not... BTW, jazz was the big waste of my time. I spent so many years reading jazz theory and just analyzing, arranging and composing until I realized only very recently I am exhausted and it’s only classical music that is the music I love. I could’ve spent all that time improving my technique instead. Sorry for the long post...
Originally Posted by CyberGene
BTW, jazz was the big waste of my time. I spent so many years reading jazz theory and just analyzing, arranging and composing until I realized only very recently I am exhausted and it’s only classical music that is the music I love. I could’ve spent all that time improving my technique instead. Sorry for the long post...

Welcome back to classical!

great story! is it true? (joking laugh )

EDIT: BTW, what was the hardest Bach you've played? Just curious!
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
BTW, what was the hardest Bach you've played? Just curious!

At some point I could start and play WTC 1, all the preludes and fugues, and then WTC2. But I couldn’t play them well laugh Just barely. Some of those gave me headaches.
As to Jethro. I reported two of his posts for containing remarks that I find rather insulting. Whether the moderators banned him for that, I don’t know, it would be too strong and I doubt it since banned members are labeled as such and he’s not. If I overreacted I would apologize but ultimately it’s moderators who decide, I only reported. I felt insulted and I won’t apologize for feeling like that unless there’s a language misunderstanding.
Wow, that's a great story!

I have an upright in our apartment in Europe (it was handed down to me from my composition teacher) which I obviously couldn't move with me when I moved to Florida. I haven't had a well-paying job so far (finished my MSc 3 years ago, worked one year for a scientific institution and now doing my PhD (in physics) in Florida), so I can only save a little to make a fair compromise. I believe VPC-1 will perform well.

I wish my parents would be more into music, I wish they'd brought me to an instrument when I was 4yo (though my parents would've never saved enough for a piano). I used to secretly dream of taking a different path...become a pro concert pianist. That would be so cool ^^

I like your admiration for Bach. It is no surprise you also like math and physics, everything in Bach is so well-placed it looks like it had been calculated. When I used to solve problems for math/physics camps (after several rounds of problem solutions I mailed to the orgs a week-long camp took place which I could attend if I ended up high enough) I used to combine it with playing piano, it worked wonders!

My favourite composer is Chopin, his music is so perfect (in a different way than Bach's music).
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
and now doing my PhD (in physics) in Florida), so I can only save a little.

Having been in research physics in a past life and also having worked in the investment banking world, I can tell you that if you earn your Physics PhD and head straight to Wall Street with it, saving for an acoustical grand piano will not be an issue wink When I was at JP Morgan, our computational risk team there was composed 100% of physicists. smile On Wall Street, physicists are often better than mathematicians since physicists understand models - and financial models are just like other models, only with different assumptions.

(Modern finance and physics have had a long and fruitful relationship - for example, the Black–Scholes–Merton model of derivative pricing has a Hamiltonian form that derives from the Schrödinger equation of a charged particle in an electromagnetic gauge field. grin CyberGene maybe left school too early and shouldn't have been so quick to jump into programming. wink )
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
and now doing my PhD (in physics) in Florida), so I can only save a little.

Having been in research physics in a past life and also having worked in the investment banking world, I can tell you that if you earn your Physics PhD and head straight to Wall Street with it, saving for an acoustical grand piano will not be an issue wink

(Modern finance and physics have had a long and fruitful relationship - for example, the Black–Scholes–Merton model of derivative pricing has a Hamiltonian form that derives from the Schrödinger equation of a charged particle in an electromagnetic gauge field. grin CyberGene maybe left school too early wink )


Haha, that's funny. Youknow, my ultimate dream is having a big house a concert grand in the hall downstairs. I'd invite people over every month to play some recitals and also have them play for me. I'd also have it tuned every month (by a personal tuner). (then I wake up in my modest bedroom and go back to reading papers lol)

But seriously, I'm considering not continuing in academia after finishing...I'm more into coding. Physics just offers a LOT of opportunities to code the sh*t out of it (I'm not sure whether any modern physics can go without numerics).
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
and now doing my PhD (in physics) in Florida), so I can only save a little.

Having been in research physics in a past life and also having worked in the investment banking world, I can tell you that if you earn your Physics PhD and head straight to Wall Street with it, saving for an acoustical grand piano will not be an issue wink

(Modern finance and physics have had a long and fruitful relationship - for example, the Black–Scholes–Merton model of derivative pricing has a Hamiltonian form that derives from the Schrödinger equation of a charged particle in an electromagnetic gauge field. grin CyberGene maybe left school too early wink )
Haha, that's funny. Youknow, my ultimate dream is having a big house a concert grand in the hall downstairs. I'd invite people over every month to play some recitals and also have them play for me. I'd also have it tuned every month (by a personal tuner). (then I wake up in my modest bedroom and go back to reading papers lol)

Well, take a newly minted PhD in Physics to Wall Street, and having a personal tuner might not be such a stretch. Especially if you are good in computational physics. LOL... In fact, I have in mind a hedge fund whose founder himself has a PhD in Physics who'd definitely look at you smile
My teacher has suggested that I rent an upright and I think that is a good idea. I’ll get some experience living with an acoustic piano and I can always trade up or buy later. She offered to help pick it out which I think is a kind gesture. Now, I just need to convince my wife. smile
Originally Posted by LarryK
My teacher has suggested that I rent an upright and I think that is a good idea. I’ll get some experience living with an acoustic piano and I can always trade up or buy later. She offered to help pick it out which I think is a kind gesture. Now, I just need to convince my wife. smile

She really hates "gadgets," I see.
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by LarryK
My teacher has suggested that I rent an upright and I think that is a good idea. I’ll get some experience living with an acoustic piano and I can always trade up or buy later. She offered to help pick it out which I think is a kind gesture. Now, I just need to convince my wife. smile

She really hates "gadgets," I see.


LOL, well, I did mention I wanted an acoustic upright and she brought up the idea of renting one and knows someone who can give me a good deal. I’d rather spend $50-100 a month to rent a piano than to buy one before I really know what I want.
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte

I like your admiration for Bach. It is no surprise you also like math and physics, everything in Bach is so well-placed it looks like it had been calculated. When I used to solve problems for math/physics camps (after several rounds of problem solutions I mailed to the orgs a week-long camp took place which I could attend if I ended up high enough) I used to combine it with playing piano, it worked wonders!

My favourite composer is Chopin, his music is so perfect (in a different way than Bach's music).

Actually that Bach obsession was in the the first 4-5 years. He still has a place in my heart but I’ve gradually switched to being a Chopin guy and for the last 10 years or so he’s been my favorite composer and I have been playing almost nothing else smile
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte

I like your admiration for Bach. It is no surprise you also like math and physics, everything in Bach is so well-placed it looks like it had been calculated. When I used to solve problems for math/physics camps (after several rounds of problem solutions I mailed to the orgs a week-long camp took place which I could attend if I ended up high enough) I used to combine it with playing piano, it worked wonders!

My favourite composer is Chopin, his music is so perfect (in a different way than Bach's music).

Actually that Bach obsession was in the the first 4-5 years. He still has a place in my heart but I’ve gradually switched to being a Chopin guy and for the last 10 years or so he’s been my favorite composer and I have been playing almost nothing else smile

Being a math geek (and one with a soft spot for FoM), I love the mathematical precision and algebraic structures of Bach. I can't wait until I can play some Inventions, but I'm letting my teacher take the lead on that.

Chopin is nice, but Bach is really cool. Perhaps I shouldn't have read GEB as a kid! laugh
I recently tried to sightread Bach C major prelude and it went surprisingly well! (I suck a lot at sight-reading and I want to improve). I need to find other "easy Bach" or other composers to "sight-read a piece every day" that's close to my level...

BTW check this out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5g1889VxIxk It made me crack in the beginning. "I learned how to walk properly, where should I be walking?" laugh
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
I recently tried to sightread Bach C major prelude and it went surprisingly well! (I suck a lot at sight-reading and I want to improve). I need to find other "easy Bach" or other composers to "sight-read a piece every day" that's close to my level...

BTW check this out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5g1889VxIxk It made me crack in the beginning. "I learned how to walk properly, where should I be walking?" laugh


Eleanor Bindman, pianist and teacher, has arranged a book of some pieces by Bach which she calls Stepping Stones to Bach:

https://eleonorbindman.com/

I’d love to hear someone’s review of this book.

Eleanor arranged all of the Brandenburgs for piano four hands and shot this hilarious video about the work that went into that project:

https://youtu.be/E5q82MySieQ

Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
I recently tried to sightread Bach C major prelude and it went surprisingly well! (I suck a lot at sight-reading and I want to improve). I need to find other "easy Bach" or other composers to "sight-read a piece every day" that's close to my level...

BTW check this out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5g1889VxIxk It made me crack in the beginning. "I learned how to walk properly, where should I be walking?" laugh


Good sight-reading is a blessing and a curse. I think I am pretty good at sight reading, maybe much more above the average. And so it allows me to play so many pieces from the scores that I can't concentrate on a single piece to practice it until I play it good. Sadly, I can play many pieces from scores, but none is mastered frown

As to easy pieces by Bach for sight-reading, you can try the so called little preludes. There's no actual "work" called this way, but they usually collect pretty much the same pieces under this term and some of them are really easy to sight read, yet effective and typically Bach smile
If I might . . .hi-jack this thread for a moment; laugh I called in a piano shop yesterday (I was away from home) and they had nothing but acoustics in. Mainly uprights in vgc regarding appearance, some decent names, some large, some small. One must forgive the odd zinging notes or two, naturally. But it turned out that almost all had the feline influence heavily (Meeeooooowww) or lightly in a way that digitals do not emulate effectively. They don't even try to.
Now, I was and am, very glad about that.

So; to try playing a piece of music competing against a cat's chorus was something to get my head around. A challenge, even. Add to the mix the notes that didn't respond to the pedal, or didn't respond at all (fortunately, not many) with a less than desirable action and you have a clear idea of what you don't want. Ever!

Just not worth it. My opinion for what it's worth.
^ Depends very much on the condition of the uprights, age, brand, model... I've tested brand new Yamaha and Kawai uprights and they never cease to amaze me, so controllable and smooth.
I wouldn't forgive any odd zinging notes, if the piano is coming from a piano dealer...decent dealers recondition their pianos before trying to sell them. If I'd buy from a private seller, that's another story. Sure, if the instrument in its current condition requires a lot of money to be put into for it to be functioning normally again, I'd argue for a lower price (at the same time, many people are selling old spinets on craigslist for $500, $300, heck, even for free, if you just take the damn thing away, and it's still not worth it). Sorry if I sound harsh, but such a piano does not have any emotional value to me and I am not willing to pay for what its owner neglected.

I saw one piano, told its owner it's out of tune, and asked when was the last time he had had it tuned and he said just recently, six months...and before that? He wouldn't remember. He actually let out a very surprised sigh "every year?!" when I told him how often he should tune it. Then he called his tuner who proceed to ask me whether I have a perfect pitch to tell it's out of tune. Facepalm. But the owner was nice, he was just clueless.
The straight strung upright I had at home was clear, good dynamics and got tuned each year or two. I never noticed the difference after the tuner had gone. But it never zinged or anything like that. Mind you, the pedal needed fixing. It'd crash in the middle of playing, and the mechanism was reset. Nobody got around to fixing that properly.
I agree the new Ks and Ys are very nice. Prefer the K!

It'd be fun to buy an acoustic these days. There's so many, and chances are you could pick up a good 'un for £300 if you're willing to wait.
Originally Posted by peterws
The straight strung upright I had at home was clear, good dynamics and got tuned each year or two. I never noticed the difference after the tuner had gone. But it never zinged or anything like that. Mind you, the pedal needed fixing. It'd crash in the middle of playing, and the mechanism was reset. Nobody got around to fixing that properly.
I agree the new Ks and Ys are very nice. Prefer the K!

It'd be fun to buy an acoustic these days. There's so many, and chances are you could pick up a good 'un for £300 if you're willing to wait.


Yeah...I understand your sentiment, but I settled for a digital piano. No tuning, no problems with nothing (hammers, pin block, bridge, soundboard...)
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Bach. I can't wait until I can play some Inventions, but I'm letting my teacher take the lead on that.

Why? You could do it secretly--he need never know! (Or only at a later, more appropriate time).
Often thought about having a crack myself at those. Don't know why I haven't...may be a time issue. I'll bet they're a lot of fun to play, maybe even before mastery.
Oh, I know why...you're concerned your teacher may fly into a CG-esque Branch Davidian rage, and cease to accommodate.
Well, as I say, secret Invention learning gets around it.
I have a low end Yamaha P series keyboard nonetheless has 88 keys. Even with DPs that have 88 keys, you have the low-end keyboards and the high end. The lower down you go, you are more likely to get semi-weighed keys that are lighter than acoustic piano keys. And even if you have a 3 foot pedals unit, it is likely the pedals are plastic instead of brass. The higher up keyboards do have keys with a textured surface that feels less like playing on plastic.

And the sound quality have improved significantly although the sound of DPs are not replicas of acoustic pianos. You have the Casio Celviano GP-300 & 500 designed in collaboration with Bechstein Piano with 3 grand piano sounds (Berlin, Hamburg & Vienna) and the Yamaha Clavinova with the CFX & Bösendorfer sound. You can get close to the sound of an acoustic grand piano but sound quality is subjective. .
I received my Studiologic SL73 today. Didn't have time to connect it and control the reface CP and my iPad, however I played the keyboard and it gave me a hard time. Its dynamic weight is quite high and is similar to how I feel the dynamic weight on my N1X. However I'm really far from saying they are similar, since on the N1X I feel stuff happening under the keys, whereas on the Studiologic it's just a single smooth motion top to bottom and back, no escapement or varying weight/resistance. Taking in mind it's a €330 controller (and you can have the 88-key Studio version for just a bit more), it would probably work as a great budget controller for VST-s. I hear people complaining of keys becoming clicky with the time and all sorts of problems with Fatar own controllers but other than that with a bit of luck it would be a dream practice machine for pianists on a tight budget. And that's their mid-level Fatar TP100/LR action. As far as I understand the TP40/WOOD in the slightly more expensive SL88 Grand is even better than that.
I think what Ando and Gombessa have said re speakers on the Novus 10 hands on thread says all about why digitals will never, with current technology, match acoustics, irrespective of the action. I think with current actions and the wide variety that exists with all acoustics, acrion is the least problem.
One point I'd make is - When people are saying that DP's don't sound like "an acoustic piano" - which acoustic piano? In what setting? A lot of acoustic pianos sound very different from one another. Perhaps people mean "How much does the Steinway setting on Pianoteq sound like a standard Steinway"?

Example - if you take a knackered upright with half the hammer felts worn, completely out of tune being played in a really dry acoustic environment, one might find some DP's actually sound more like an acoustic than this particular upright.

Which acoustics are you guys comparing against?

I just treat the DP like another piano, as the acoustic I've played vary so much, I don't think I could really say what a typical acoustic sounds or feels like. There are some really weird ones out there.
I think that digitals will not only match but will also surpass acoustics as we know them. It’s just the nature of innovation.
Once a technology reaches its limits (as with acoustics) a new one emerges (digitals). When was the last time you heard of the acoustic piano being significantly improved and/or reinvented from scratch? Was it with the introduction of Steinway’s state of the art (sarcasm) accelerated action, duplex, carbon, monoxide, satin, ivory-synthetic?

The piano has reached its limit (so has sampling grin); whereas, the digital (as with modeling) is only getting started!

It, the acoustic piano, will join relics like the harpsichord in the museum of ancient artifacts that were once prominent. Yes, you can still play the Goldbergs on the harpsichord, but why would you want to do that? You can play Beethoven on the piano-forte, but why would you want to do that?
In the future you’d be able to find a piano hidden in some abandoned mansion, and yes, you’d be able to play Bill Evans on that there Steinway, but why would you want to do that when playing on the Novus NV99 will be a more-gratifying yet much cheaper alternative?
Originally Posted by Pete14
I think that digitals will not only match but will also surpass acoustics as we know them. It’s just the nature of innovation.
Once a technology reaches its limits (as with acoustics) a new one emerges (digitals). When was the last time you heard of the acoustic piano being significantly improved and/or reinvented from scratch? Was it with the introduction of Steinway’s state of the art (sarcasm) accelerated action, duplex, carbon, monoxide, satin, ivory-synthetic?

The piano has reached its limit (so has sampling grin); whereas, the digital (as with modeling) is only getting started!

It, the acoustic piano, will join relics like the harpsichord in the museum of ancient artifacts that were once prominent. Yes, you can still play the Goldbergs on the harpsichord, but why would you want to do that? You can play Beethoven on the piano-forte, but why would you want to do that?
In the future you’d be able to find a piano hidden in some abandoned mansion, and yes, you’d be able to play Bill Evans on that there Steinway, but why would you want to do that when playing on the Novus NV99 will be a more-gratifying yet much cheaper alternative?


The main problem, as discussed in the Novus thread, is about how sound is generated. Acoustic pianos can reach peaks of 110 to 120 db in the player position. The sound is also spread out from a soundboard, which spreads sound into the room in a different way than small transducers do. There is only so much you can do about this at the moment. Sound waves follow the laws of physics, and the laws of physics dictate that you need to move a lot of air to create a lot of sound. Some very small speakers are able to reach deep bass and high spl levels by using copious amounts of amplifier power (Devialet phantom etc), but have you seen their price? This also comes with the cost of higher distortion (bigger transducers can move more air without distorting, that applies to pianos as well as to loudspeakers).

I'm also a big fan of Pianoteq and the modelled approach. It may not be 100 percent there yet, in terms of fully recreating the sound of a great acoustic, but it's very close in my view.

DP actions are also getting closer and closer to the real thing, as seen with the NV10 and the N1X etc. But I would be very surprised if anything comes along which can rival the sound output of a good acoustic for at least 30 years. And by then we'll be living in the midst of large-scale climate emergency, so very expensive DPs will probably not be the thing people prioritize the most. But we'll see. If excellent DPs come along earlier, I'll only be happy to be proven wrong.
Originally Posted by thickfingers
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Bach. I can't wait until I can play some Inventions, but I'm letting my teacher take the lead on that.

Why? You could do it secretly--he need never know! (Or only at a later, more appropriate time).
Often thought about having a crack myself at those. Don't know why I haven't...may be a time issue. I'll bet they're a lot of fun to play, maybe even before mastery.


I just bought a book of the 15 Inventions for less than the price of a pint.. An ebay used edition, with teacher's pencilling included! Trying the first, naturally. I don't find Bach easy, but enjoy the note interactions. Magic!
From the two-voice inventions 1, 4, 8, 14 are my favorite.
It has been discussed a lot on this forum but for those who missed it. The great Bach interpreter Glenn Gould wanted his piano technician to regulate his Steinway in a way that resembles a harpsichord: short key dip, hence short hammer blow distance. That's a tough task and so his technician struggled whole night and ended up with a weird defect that some notes would randomly be doubled, which they called "hiccup". Well, guess what, Glenn Gould liked it and it can be heard on a few of his Bach recordings, Inventions included. I've always been EXTREMELY irritated by that and could barely listen to those recordings before wanting to smash my head in the wall (and I'm not even mentioning Glenn's humming) laugh
Originally Posted by peterws
Originally Posted by thickfingers
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Bach. I can't wait until I can play some Inventions, but I'm letting my teacher take the lead on that.

Why? You could do it secretly--he need never know! (Or only at a later, more appropriate time).
Often thought about having a crack myself at those. Don't know why I haven't...may be a time issue. I'll bet they're a lot of fun to play, maybe even before mastery.


I just bought a book of the 15 Inventions for less than the price of a pint.. An ebay used edition, with teacher's pencilling included! Trying the first, naturally. I don't find Bach easy, but enjoy the note interactions. Magic!

And the title is? I could keep a lookout on Evilbay for a similar dirtcheap bargain.
Originally Posted by thickfingers
Oh, I know why...you're concerned your teacher may fly into a CG-esque Branch Davidian rage, and cease to accommodate.
Well, as I say, secret Invention learning gets around it.

Well, I assume that she knows well my capabilities and despite what I may think, if she thinks I'm not yet ready for Inventions, then I assume I am still missing skills needed for Inventions. Not going to worry about that now. There's plenty of stuff to play without playing any inventions.

There are still pieces I am not ready for that I'd like to play, but I'm finding the reality is that I just have no time for them at all. All my time is taken up just practicing/playing my assigned pieces.
Originally Posted by Pete14
I think that digitals will not only match but will also surpass acoustics as we know them. It’s just the nature of innovation.
Once a technology reaches its limits (as with acoustics) a new one emerges (digitals). When was the last time you heard of the acoustic piano being significantly improved and/or reinvented from scratch?

Ohh Pete....You cannot replace the original acoustic instrument with an electronic imitation. smile
Makers like Fazioli and Steingraeber make improvements all the time.
If you were to significantly change, and or reinvent from scratch, it would be a different instrument.
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by thickfingers
Oh, I know why...you're concerned your teacher may fly into a CG-esque Branch Davidian rage, and cease to accommodate.
Well, as I say, secret Invention learning gets around it.

Well, I assume that she knows well my capabilities and despite what I may think, if she thinks I'm not yet ready for Inventions, then I assume I am still missing skills needed for Inventions. Not going to worry about that now. There's plenty of stuff to play without playing any inventions.

There are still pieces I am not ready for that I'd like to play, but I'm finding the reality is that I just have no time for them at all. All my time is taken up just practicing/playing my assigned pieces.



Hmm.. I've been told the same thing not by a teacher though by people on this forum. So I am working my way through Clementi Sonatinas and Bach Little Preludes but I wonder, is there something that those in the "Inventions Club" are trying to keep from us? If we, the unworthy, start trying Bach Inventions do we attain a new level of piano enlightenment, is this how you achieve classical piano nirvana?
Originally Posted by oneilt130
So I am working my way through Clementi Sonatinas and Bach Little Preludes but I wonder, is there something that those in the "Inventions Club" are trying to keep from us? If we, the unworthy, start trying Bach Inventions do we attain a new level of piano enlightenment, is this how you achieve classical piano nirvana?

I seem to recall my teacher said Preludes come before Inventions, so I am hoping I can start Preludes soon. smile
Originally Posted by thickfingers
Originally Posted by peterws
Originally Posted by thickfingers
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Bach. I can't wait until I can play some Inventions, but I'm letting my teacher take the lead on that.

Why? You could do it secretly--he need never know! (Or only at a later, more appropriate time).
Often thought about having a crack myself at those. Don't know why I haven't...may be a time issue. I'll bet they're a lot of fun to play, maybe even before mastery.


I just bought a book of the 15 Inventions for less than the price of a pint.. An ebay used edition, with teacher's pencilling included! Trying the first, naturally. I don't find Bach easy, but enjoy the note interactions. Magic!

And the title is? I could keep a lookout on Evilbay for a similar dirtcheap bargain.


J S Bach 2 part Inventions, the album is "Easier Piano Pieces No33"
Just to chime in the discussion...I just received my Sennheiser 6xx and I like them! The grip is a bit tight, but I can adjust to it, eventually. The sound is not distorted, no boomy bass, they reproduce music very faithfully! I don't understand how I could listen to anything through my screen built-in sh*tty popping speakers.

Anyway, I was just listening to some Paul Barton Feurich recordings (check him out if you didn't, he is amazing!) and sometimes it even sounds like a digital piano. In a way: very clear sound, even dry without the pedal. I think it just became clear to me that what makes acoustic acoustic through speakers are resonances - I could hear all the fine interplay when he lifted dampers, but when you sample note-by-note into a digital and don't use a pedal, it's hard to tell the difference. What makes acoustic acoustic face to face is, as someone pointed, the way it spreads the sound around in a room.

On a side note, listening to my favourite 50s pop playlist through these headphones makes me cry. Though, some 50s songs make me cry anyway, so not sure how much are the headphones to blame.
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
On a side note, listening to my favourite 50s pop playlist through these headphones makes me cry. Though, some 50s songs make me cry anyway, so not sure how much are the headphones to blame.

You're a bit young to be listening to 50's pop, aren't you? Your parents weren't even likely alive then smile
Originally Posted by jeffscot
Originally Posted by Pete14
I think that digitals will not only match but will also surpass acoustics as we know them. It’s just the nature of innovation.
Once a technology reaches its limits (as with acoustics) a new one emerges (digitals). When was the last time you heard of the acoustic piano being significantly improved and/or reinvented from scratch?

Ohh Pete....You cannot replace the original acoustic instrument with an electronic imitation. smile
Makers like Fazioli and Steingraeber make improvements all the time.
If you were to significantly change, and or reinvent from scratch, it would be a different instrument.




The other day I walked by a well-known piano dealer, and to my surprise, all the shades were down. I wondered what had happened to the usual display of acoustics reaching out at you from the inside, through the shades, and past the shining sun.
I walked in despite, and to my horror there sat an N1X surrounded by an angry mob of acoustics. It yelled at me, the N1X, “get me out of here; I don’t want to die. I’m not an acoustic though thy eyes might perceive otherwise”!
It was a horrific scene but I could not save that N1X, for you see, the acoustics stood in the way, stubbornly blinding me with their damp yet polished stance.
I curse thee, acoustic! I curse thee for not letting me get to that there N1X!
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

You're a bit young to be listening to 50's pop, aren't you? Your parents weren't even likely alive then smile


If I'm too young to be listening to 50s, then why do we even have this forum for classical music? I bet nobody's parents were alive then laugh (only 1800s kids will remember)

My parents were born in early 50s. They don't quite like 50s music though. My mom sometimes listens to rap shocked
If this is true ...
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
... listening to my favourite 50s pop playlist ...
You're a bit young to be listening to 50's pop, aren't you? Your parents weren't even likely alive then smile
... then I'm too young to be listening to 1830s era Chopin, or 1780s era Mozart, or 1580s era Purcell. My great, great, great, great grandparents weren't even alive then! smile
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
If I'm too young to be listening to 50s, then why do we even have this forum for classical music? I bet nobody's parents were alive then laugh (only 1800s kids will remember)
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
If this is true ...
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
... listening to my favourite 50s pop playlist ...
You're a bit young to be listening to 50's pop, aren't you? Your parents weren't even likely alive then smile
... then I'm too young to be listening to 1830s era Chopin, or 1780s era Mozart, or 1580s era Purcell. My great, great, great, great grandparents weren't even alive then! smile

Are you comparing pop to Chopin then? Some of the "pop" of the 19th century was blackfaced minstrelsy music. Betcha don't listen to that! wink
Originally Posted by peterws
JS Bach 2 part Inventions, the album is "Easier Piano Pieces No33"

ABRSM, Jones? Good man thanks, I've set up a search for it, nothing at the moment. I want one for the price of a pint or it's just damwell not fair.
Why don’t you download them for free (and legally) from IMSLP?
And back to the topic of what DPs lack compared to acoustic pianos.

I played the Studiologic SL73 for half an hour, hooked to the reface CP and to Garritan CFX. On one hand is great value for money. It’s built like a tank and has probably the best multi-setup four-zone programmability I’ve ever seen shocked And quite heavy keyboard. It’s actually feels even heavier than my N1X. And kind of sluggish, also soft-bottoming.

But what exhausted me is the constant back-pressure of the keys. It’s almost like springs pushing back the keys... Very unnatural compared to the real thing. I realize the acoustic piano action is simply unreachable without proper escapement, double repetition lever and the intentional friction in the various action pins. It’s amazing how something invented so long ago and so full of workaround solutions is so good. And how that can’t be recreated in the 21st century with our mind blowing technological experience and so the only way to recreate that feeling is through using the real thing. It makes me humble before the genius of all those piano builders.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Why don’t you download them for free (and legally) from IMSLP?

I don't know. Might be something to do with not having to switch anything on to look at it. Paper does have its antiquated advantages.
Originally Posted by thickfingers
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Why don’t you download them for free (and legally) from IMSLP?

I don't know. Might be something to do with not having to switch anything on to look at it. Paper does have its antiquated advantages.

Yes, paper has its advantages for music scores. All my scores are now on the iPad. Except for Chopin. I purchased the complete works of Chopin in Henle Verlag urtext editions, excellent print, feels better than the iPad although I miss the easier page turn with the iPad. And my iPad has a 9.7” display, not one of those big ones, so admittedly it’s kind of small for reading.
Originally Posted by thickfingers
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Why don’t you download them for free (and legally) from IMSLP?

I don't know. Might be something to do with not having to switch anything on to look at it. Paper does have its antiquated advantages.

They are usually in printable pdf format, so just download and print. I've downloaded a few - makes me feel kind of guilty because they ask for donations to support the site and I haven't donated (yet - I may do if I download a lot)!
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Just to chime in the discussion...I just received my Sennheiser 6xx and I like them! The grip is a bit tight, but I can adjust to it, eventually. The sound is not distorted, no boomy bass, they reproduce music very faithfully! I don't understand how I could listen to anything through my screen built-in sh*tty popping speakers.

I have the Sennheiser HD650 which I believe are exactly the same headphones. Yes, these are the best headphones for listening to music I’ve ever had! Period. And I’ve had so many. They are also great for digital pianos and software pianos although take in mind they are 300Ω and are a bit hard to drive. You may need a headphone amp if your computer can’t give them enough juice. BTW, we’ve previously discussed how Garritan CFX has kind of bright nature and a slightly noticeable hiss at quiet volumes in the tenor range. For some reason the combination of Garritan CFX and HD650’s slightly warm signature is a black magic! There’s not so much hiss and the highs are tamed down. It’s absolutely fabulous. The HD650 are also great with my N1X, however it turned out that my old Sennheiser HD595-s which are brighter and not so bassy are better with the N1X. So with the headphones it’s a constant seek of the proper “synergy” so to speak.

Since I received a free gift with my last order: the famous Superlux HD681 EVO (€30) I am currently on the sofa, listening to my favorite recording as of late, the Mahler Sixth Symphony with Todor Currentzis, switching between Sennheiser HD650, HD595 and the Superlux HD681 EVO and there’s no contest:

1. The Superlux lack detail, the mids are withdrawn, the bass is too loud and smears the low tenor... I just don’t like them. This is my second pair, I’ve had them a year ago and I thought I liked them then. Either this pair is not good or I was wrong. I also tested them with the N1X and they sound like cr*p.

2. The Sennheiser HD595 - clear, detailed, punchy, neutral with slight tendency to be bright. Excellent headphones for classical music but kind of boring.

3. The Sennheiser HD650 - the magic! Perfect in everything, warm enough but not too much, very detailed, slightly veiled but that contributes to a sound that’s not tiring, not piercing. The mids are sublime! I forget I’m listening to headphones and I can dive into Mahler and his unearthly genius smile
——
So, you’ve made the right choice wink
Originally Posted by jeffscot
, , ,
Ohh Pete....You cannot replace the original acoustic instrument with an electronic imitation. smile
Makers like Fazioli and Steingraeber make improvements all the time.
If you were to significantly change, and or reinvent from scratch, it would be a different instrument.




I agree, although the question is subtle. The acceptance of changes to 'traditional instruments' is sociological, not technical.

Imagine an acoustic guitar with a whammy-bar. I suspect it's technically possible (especially if the guitar had a carbon-fiber top). But the complaints (from players, listeners, and critics) would be very loud.

Yamaha might come out with an Avant Grande that's indistinguishable from an acoustic piano, in blind tests (for both player and listener). Even if it can double as a drawbar organ or Rhodes, few professionals will say:

. . . "This is superior to an acoustic piano."

It'll be treated as something different. It may be _functionally_ superior to an acoustic piano, but that's only part of what counts.

Electric and electronic instruments keep "hiving-off" from acoustic instruments -- there's a "MIDI accordion", some MIDI "breath controllers", electronic drum-kits, and so on. The two electronic branches with no ties to the "acoustic tree" (that I can think of) are the Theremin, and some modular synths without a pitched keyboard (e.g. the Buchla).

Incidentally, with an MA in physics, I fit perfectly into this thread. We are a strange bunch.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
. It’s amazing how something invented so long ago and so full of workaround solutions is so good. And how that can’t be recreated in the 21st century with our mind blowing technological experience and so the only way to recreate that feeling is through using the real thing.


Actually, I don't think the classical acoustic grand action is all that good at all. It's just the standard we've set and are now collectively accustomed to. If pianos all originally had Yamaha GHS actions, I bet some variation of that would be the gold standard today.

Kind of like movies playing at 24fps. There is virtually nothing advantageous about it compared to 60/90/120 fps video, but it's what we're used to, so that's what we look for, and everything else, including objectively superior technology, seems "unnatural." But in this case, only to our generation. Our kids will have it better.
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Actually, I don't think the classical acoustic grand action is all that good at all. It's just the standard we've set and are now collectively accustomed to. If pianos all originally had Yamaha GHS actions, I bet some variation of that would be the gold standard today.

Kind of like movies playing at 24fps. There is virtually nothing advantageous about it compared to 60/90/120 fps video, but it's what we're used to, so that's what we look for, and everything else, including objectively superior technology, seems "unnatural." But in this case, only to our generation. Our kids will have it better.

LOL. I started a thread about this! smile
Eh, what a bunch of sacrilegious boiz. I want to hear them strings scream in pain!!

On a side note: there's some music workshop going on in our music school so I was lucky to find an empty practice room with a very obscure Kawai upright...which made me think that I would definitely prefer a standard digital piano with properly weighted keys to a crappy upright. It wasn't pleasant. In my very first post I mentioned how some digitals "max out" (not Yamaha P-515, btw, it's hard to reach even dynamic level around 110) when I play hard...well this instrument maxxed out somewhere in the middle (around my f), but unlike a digital piano (which sounds just same, no matter what force you slam it with), it started to sound very unpleasant (it's hard to describe this). I miss the Steinway grand, that's a very good piano with a wide dynamic range (and also this is where the difference is: it's not only about various timbres in between that one might not even being able to tell apart, but how much the instrument can "take" - it may not respond with a pleasant sound if you lean on it). Plus the action felt really strange, not it's weight and touch, but the way it responded to repeated notes...what worked on that Steinway grand just didn't work on this Kawai - usually the key went down with no sound after the initial note/chord, I'm used to the fact that you don't have to go super high to repeat a note.

So definitely, I'd take a good digital (hopefully VPC-1 mated with a good software will fall into this category) over a worn-out bangy upright any time.
Isn't this a pointless choice?
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
I'd take a good digital (hopefully VPC-1 mated with a good software will fall into this category) over a worn-out bangy upright any time.
Would it not be equally meaningful to say:
"I'd prefer a fine grand piano over a worn out digital."
"I'd prefer a find grant piano over a brand-new top-of-the-line digital."
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Isn't this a pointless choice?
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
I'd take a good digital (hopefully VPC-1 mated with a good software will fall into this category) over a worn-out bangy upright any time.
Would it not be equally meaningful to say:
"I'd prefer a fine grand piano over a worn out digital."
"I'd prefer a find grant piano over a brand-new top-of-the-line digital."


Well the point is, that the acoustic is not ultimately better than digital. It depends on its condition. Since I cannot afford a grand piano and most uprights in my price range are old and worn-out, a digital is a very reasonable choice.
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Kind of like movies playing at 24fps. There is virtually nothing advantageous about it compared to 60/90/120 fps video, but it's what we're used to, so that's what we look for, and everything else, including objectively superior technology, seems "unnatural." But in this case, only to our generation. Our kids will have it better.

I believe that's a bad example. 24fps was initially chosen as probably the minimum fps that would give the impression of motion while not wasting a lot of film stock. But it is arguably better than higher frame rates and I've read multiple analysis on why people prefer the 24 fps of movies compared to the "cheap soap opera" effect of higher frame rates. The reason is a phenomenon in various fields where brain lacks the complete information and needs to interpolate and build the missing data, such as e.b. black and white photography where the brain needs to unconsciously imagine actual colors, reading: where brain needs to imagine what's being read; poetry: even further abstraction to that, etc., etc. And in the case of 24fps films the brain needs to reconstruct the missing frames. And so, it has been noted that in all these cases where the brain needs to work out when perceiving a piece of art, there's some pleasure involved in the process. Which is why the 24fps movies look that dreamy and we often say "the cinematic look" to refer to an effect that' being sought.

And then, that's also a wrong analogy smile Because cinema is an attempt to represent reality - because you shoot with the camera what you see with the eyes.

The piano action isn't a way to represent anything. It's an invention, a device, an instrument. It's one of the best and there's a reason behind that. And I stand behind my words: because of all the workarounds and obstacles, it miraculously happened to be great. Modern digital piano actions don't need to have escapement, etc, you can just have the typical RM3 or GF action (or any other DP action). But it's no good smile And yes, I realize how some people would perceive that as snobbery wink
Originally Posted by MacMacMac

"I'd prefer a find grant piano over a brand-new top-of-the-line digital."


Typical scientist sentiment....🙄
Originally Posted by CyberGene

I believe that's a bad example. 24fps was initially chosen as probably the minimum fps that would give the impression of motion while not wasting a lot of film stock. But it is arguably better than higher frame rates and I've read multiple analysis on why people prefer the 24 fps of movies compared to the "cheap soap opera" effect of higher frame rates. The reason is a phenomenon in various fields where brain lacks the complete information and needs to interpolate and build the missing data, such as e.b. black and white photography where the brain needs to unconsciously imagine actual colors, reading: where brain needs to imagine what's being read; poetry: even further abstraction to that, etc., etc. And in the case of 24fps films the brain needs to reconstruct the missing frames. And so, it has been noted that in all these cases where the brain needs to work out when perceiving a piece of art, there's some pleasure involved in the process. Which is why the 24fps movies look that dreamy and we often say "the cinematic look" to refer to an effect that' being sought.


Oh man, what a doozy of a post hoc rationalization! IMHO people who say this simply grew up with low frame rate film and high frame rate video, and so they assign the bias of their experiences to each: one is associated with "art" and high production value expense, the other with "cheap" throwaway soap opera and live sports broadcasts. It has little to do with the merits of the technological details itself. If film started at 60fps interlaced and video at 24fps you can bet these "artistic" sentiments would be reversed. Hopefully in a few generations nobody will be trying to make such arguments anymore, and they'll fall by the historical wayside just like school headmasters lamenting modem students' lack of ability to script on portable slates with chalk.
I agree with your general comment on bias and sentiment over old (hence imperfect) stuff versus the new (advanced, even perfect) stuff.

However regarding 24 FPS we agree to disagree smile It's a particular case which I believe is an exception to the general rule. It’s like you trying to convince me a picture where everything is in focus is better than one with shallow depth of field smile And we will be both right. It depends on what’s in the picture, doesn’t it? And even beyond that it’s still a matter of taste, not an ultimate fact or truth.
Good points about frame rate. But even if it were pertinent for comparison with pianos, it still misses the mark.

And that point is: It doesn't make sense to compare a good quality X with an old, poor quality Y ... even though Y, when new, had been more expensive than X.

@CA: You said "Since I cannot afford a grand piano and most uprights in my price range are old and worn-out, a digital is a very reasonable choice."

I don't know what is your price range. But I bought a very nice upright years ago for $3500. A 50" full-size Kawai. It was neither old nor worn-out.

I could buy a similar piano today for not much more than that. And it would be at or below my price range for a digital.
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
@CA: You said "Since I cannot afford a grand piano and most uprights in my price range are old and worn-out, a digital is a very reasonable choice."

I don't know what is your price range. But I bought a very nice upright years ago for $3500. A 50" full-size Kawai. It was neither old nor worn-out.

I could buy a similar piano today for not much more than that. And it would be at or below my price range for a digital.


Well, I can buy VPC-1 for less than half of that. Still has a good action and paired with a good software sound great. Doesn't go out of tune. How long will it take until you have to tune yours for the first time? It's not only an initial investment, you have to keep sinking money into it. Can you play at night? Probably not, neighbours/family won't be pleased. A lot to consider, not just lower price smile
BTW, thanks for the fun discussion CG. I won't detail this thread any more with talk of old movie technology wink

CA, hope the VPC-1 serves you well. I was quite impressed with it when I first tried it (though it was bring used to play PT5 our of some very budget headphones).
I was responding to your comparison of a digital with a poor quality acoustic.
You were saying that you couldn't find good acoustic within budget. More than that you said the in-budget acoustics were what we call "beater" pianos.
I found otherwise.

But now you've changed the subject. smile

Anyway ...
Yes, my upright required tuning. But it never required lubrication. My eleven-year-old Clav has. Three times.

The upright required minor regulation (capstan adjustments). But it never needed sensor pad replacements. The digital has.

Both need maintenance. I suspect, though, that some people simply replace the digital.
Perhaps my digital after eleven years has overstayed its usefulness?
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Perhaps my digital after eleven years has overstayed its usefulness?

It's just waiting 22 months to be retired wink
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Yes, my upright required tuning. But it never required lubrication. My eleven-year-old Clav has. Three times.

The upright required minor regulation (capstan adjustments). But it never needed sensor pad replacements. The digital has.

Do non-folded Kawai actions require lubrication? I'm guessing the hammers may need lubrication, but not the keys since they pivot on balance pins?

Maybe optical sensors would solve the sensor pad issue? However, I'm not sure if the cost would be justified. Do only the high-end hybrid pianos (e.g. AvantGrand, Novus) have optical sensors?
Exactly. The problem is ... it needs replacement now.
The piano doesn't mind waiting 22 months (and 2 days). But I do. frown
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Perhaps my digital after eleven years has overstayed its usefulness?
It's just waiting 22 months to be retired wink
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Exactly. The problem is ... it needs replacement now.

You could just go for a cheapoan inexpensive DP as a stationkeeping maneuver. $1000 amortized over 22 months is about $1.50/day. And you might get a third of that back on eBay or Craigslist when you upgrade for real, making it only about a buck a day.
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Exactly. The problem is ... it needs replacement now.
The piano doesn't mind waiting 22 months (and 2 days). But I do. frown
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Perhaps my digital after eleven years has overstayed its usefulness?
It's just waiting 22 months to be retired wink



Does nobody change their pianos every 3 or 4 years like they do for their cars? Surely it's a point of honour to spend at least as much on your piano as you do on your car!
I used to do this when I was younger. You should've seen the cars I ran . . . . laugh
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Exactly. The problem is ... it needs replacement now.

You could just go for a cheapoan inexpensive DP as a stationkeeping maneuver. $1000 amortized over 22 months is about $1.50/day. And you might get a third of that back on eBay or Craigslist when you upgrade for real, making it only about a buck a day.


That's some mighty fine enabler talk! grin
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Exactly. The problem is ... it needs replacement now.
You could just go for a cheapoan inexpensive DP as a stationkeeping maneuver. $1000 amortized over 22 months is about $1.50/day. And you might get a third of that back on eBay or Craigslist when you upgrade for real, making it only about a buck a day.
That's some mighty fine enabler talk! grin

OK, but who's the one on the right?

[Linked Image]

laugh laugh
grin grin grin
Originally Posted by jon123
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Yes, my upright required tuning. But it never required lubrication. My eleven-year-old Clav has. Three times.

The upright required minor regulation (capstan adjustments). But it never needed sensor pad replacements. The digital has.

Do non-folded Kawai actions require lubrication? I'm guessing the hammers may need lubrication, but not the keys since they pivot on balance pins?


At least on the Grand Feel, there is no lubrication used anywhere in the action. Except viscous grease on the letoff simulation nub.
Originally Posted by Gombessa

At least on the Grand Feel, there is no lubrication used anywhere in the action. Except viscous grease on the letoff simulation nub.


Wait, can you make escapement notch more pronounced if you neglect greasing the nub?
You don’t need that. As I said, it’s a silly thing in the way of the hammer. Better off completely without that notch rather than having it slow down your hammer and thus messing up with the dynamics.
The so-called escapement is a fake. A fraud.
There is no escapement in a digital piano action, save for those few that have true grand actions.
It's just a "notch", as CA points out.
And it's a nuisance, as CG points out.
But it feels nice and adds to the illusion ^_^
Yes, it's an illusion. Fakery is always an illusion.

Escapement serves a purpose on an acoustic piano: enhanced repetition. The click is the price you pay for that benefit.

A digital does not get its repetition from that notch. It either has good repetition (via a three-sensor pickup) or it doesn't ... regardless of the presence of the clicker.

If a given digital is capable of fast repetition then there's no point in making you suffer the click. Fast repetition is the goal ... achieved. Click is not the goal.

OTOH, if a digital is not capable of fast repetition, then the presence of a clicker does not fix that deficiency. If it fools the buyer then it's a deception. An illusion. A fakery.
But I want my DP as close to the real feeling as possible, even with unpleasantries like that. Because if it only has good things and no drawbacks from the real piano, playing at a real piano will be harder afterwards.
I assume you can make the letoff feel more prominent by removing the grease. I never tried it though, because I'm afraid it may result in the notch "catching" against the hammer mechanism, and it's notoriously difficult to source the exact grease used by Kawai.
@ chopin acolyte: when will you get the VPC1?
Originally Posted by aphexdisklavier
@ chopin acolyte: when will you get the VPC1?


Hopefully, Tuesday smile

I hope it comes with all accessories needed to hook it up to a computer...I wanna try it right away.
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Originally Posted by aphexdisklavier
@ chopin acolyte: when will you get the VPC1?


Hopefully, Tuesday smile

I hope it comes with all accessories needed to hook it up to a computer...I wanna try it right away.


Yes USB cable and power cord are included. All you need is the USB cable. The power cord is only for the MIDI in and out. I am very curious how you find it...
The VPC-1 is enroute-- will the heretic upstart Jethro be vindicated, and his detractors made to look egg-faced chumps? Tune in next week to find out!
Yeah, that would be a curious thing. Jethro turning out right about VPC1 and Pianoteq being the best thing since sliced bread. I may even become myself eligible for a reciprocal ban! Which frankly would be better since this forum is taking too much time for me which I can otherwise spend playing piano, finishing my DIY-controller, finish the biography of Chopin, finish the book on orchestration by Piston, delve into creating electronic & EDM music experiments that I recently started... OMG, please ban me! shocked
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Yeah, that would be a curious thing. Jethro turning out right about VPC1 and Pianoteq being the best thing since sliced bread. I may even become myself eligible for a reciprocal ban! Which frankly would be better since this forum is taking too much time for me which I can otherwise spend playing piano, finishing my DIY-controller, finish the biography of Chopin, finish the book on orchestration by Piston, delve into creating electronic & EDM music experiments that I recently started... OMG, please ban me! shocked


While all you should be doing is PRACTICE. #lingling40hrs :P

By the way, will you ever release some footage/tutorial how to do that controller? You know like 1) steal some fine Steinway grand 2) toss the whole instrument except the action 3) ?? profit? laugh

But seriously, how do you detect when the "string" was struck? Velocity? Etc.
Cut the crap, CG.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
YI may even become myself eligible for a reciprocal ban! Which frankly would be better since this forum is taking too much time for me which I can otherwise spend playing piano, finishing my DIY-controller, finish the biography of Chopin, finish the book on orchestration by Piston, delve into creating electronic & EDM music experiments that I recently started... OMG, please ban me!
I'm surely not alone in wishing you **not** banned.
Ah, he can't be banned, he didn't do anything. Unless he blew up at a Mod by pm. He's probably just biding his time, waiting for an opportune moment to launch a devastating counter-attack. I'm intrigued to see what fiendish horrors he has planned. cool
The Never Ending Digi-Wars ...

A $1,500-$5,000 digital, is really quite a bargain. Will they ever be an acoustic? Of course not. Are some close? I sure feel they are. I have played the Yamaha and Kawai high end models and, for my use, I am quite satisfied with my used Kawai CA67. I do miss the soundboard of the CA9x Series for the tactile feedback of the keys. But the feel, sound and ease of moving? For me, all is just fine.

When digital cameras came around, there were very similar posts of pixels, shutter speed, Bayer patterns, color rendition and on and on and on. We used to call that whole process, Pixel Peeping.

Certainly digital pianos lend themselves to similar comparisons.

I believe, the better you play, the better any of these sound. It is a poor plumber that blames his tools.

Oh, and by the way, I too fell into wanting the latest whiz bang or key surface or soundboard and on and on. With what I have now, I focus on my playing. ( Without the G4 issue :-0 ) ( Couldn't resist )

A Happy Guy ...
I cannot abide argument-by-cliche.
Originally Posted by McBuster
It is a poor plumber that blames his tools.
If the tools are inadequate, then blame the tools. And hold the cliches.

(Sorry ... but you hit a sore spot!) smile
Okay, I just received the VPC-1.

The keys feel okay (still not THE feeling, but I've given up on that). Since I don't have a stand yet, it's sitting on my desk, which is ~ 8in higher than it should be, so it's making the playing extremely unconfortable (I want to follow one user's tutorial on how to make a custom VPC-1 stand from wood).

Pianoteq sounds surprisingly underwhelming with VPC-1, louds are not really louds, but I guess I'd have to play with curves and volume for some time.

What surprises me that the middle pedal is not really sostenuto on every piano sample...I don't care what the piano had originally as a middle pedal, I want sostenuto there! laugh

The triple sensor really does it's job - fast note repetition mimicks what happens on a grand piano - hammer strike happens at about 2/3 of the key press and note can be repeated after lifting the key just a bit. Handy.

It's so annoying having to restart Pianoteq after 20 minutes and not hearing certain notes, because of the trial version.

All in all, I'll have to get a better stand (I want that custom made wooden, it's cool), piano chair and try more VSTs to decide what path I want to take.
Did you set the VPC1 to Pianoteq curve? The on light should flash red and turn green. If not green, maybe you want to look into this.
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Okay, I just received the VPC-1.

The keys feel okay (still not THE feeling, but I've given up on that).

I’ve long ago came to that conclusion which ultimately made me want to make my own controller with a grand piano action and then purchase a NU1X and then a N1X.

But you can still try a CLP-675/685 as well as other keyboards such as the one you liked, the DS-88. And you can also try the Studiologic SL88 Grand.
Originally Posted by CyberGene

I’ve long ago came to that conclusion which ultimately made me want to make my own controller with a grand piano action and then purchase a NU1X and then a N1X.

But you can still try a CLP-675/685 as well as other keyboards such as the one you liked, the DS-88. And you can also try the Studiologic SL88 Grand.


Nope, I already settled down with VPC-1 + Pianoteq (even bought the stage version). Since neither of the competitor offered a trial version (I'm not gonna buy something I didn't try), I went with the obvious choice.

I might upload some tests later again, but not before I get a proper stand. 8 inches is A LOT and my wrists already hurt from the unnatural pose (me sitting lower, below the keyboard).

On a side note: on Friday I'm gonna have my first piano lesson after 10 years shocked
Chopin Acolyte, which stand will you be using?

I'm a bit of a broken record on this subject, but please avoid X-stands (which obstruct your legs), and opt for either a Z-stand or a table stand. My recommendation for the VPC1 would be the K&M 18950 or 18953.

Kind regards,
James
x
Yes try different velocity curves with the VPC Editor (download on the Kawai site). I made my own one for my playing style with maximum of expression. Also for the pedals you can choose different MIDI CC# in the editor. For the stand I recommend the K&M too. Its very stabile and fits perfect with the VPC.
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Chopin Acolyte, which stand will you be using?

I'm a bit of a broken record on this subject, but please avoid X-stands (which obstruct your legs), and opt for either a Z-stand or a table stand. My recommendation for the VPC1 would be the K&M 18950 or 18953.

Kind regards,
James
x


There was a forum member who made a custom-made wooden stand for VPC-1 and released schematics in a pdf document. I intend to take that to our school workshop to get their opinion on how much would that cost...

Originally Posted by aphexdisklavier
Yes try different velocity curves with the VPC Editor (download on the Kawai site). I made my own one for my playing style with maximum of expression. Also for the pedals you can choose different MIDI CC# in the editor. For the stand I recommend the K&M too. Its very stabile and fits perfect with the VPC.


So far calibrating the curve (by following simple instructions like "press key so it doesn't make sound" or "press key at maximum force without destroying it") has yielded fruitful results smile

I am a bit confused what is "note off signal" for. VPC-1 registers this note off signal, I guess that's simply just return velocity (when key goes up). Is it for some kind of tone decay simulation (when you put a damper over a string slowly it kinda makes that "meow" sound before the tone dies, opposed to when you do it quickly, it dies...well