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Pianoteq 6.5

Posted By: Beakybird

Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/17/19 01:59 PM

6.5.0 (2019/05/15)
Improvement of hammer noise model in all instruments, providing more edge to the attacks.
Small improvement of the string resonances in all instruments.
Revoicing of Steinway D and Bechstein DG grand pianos.
Kremsegg collection default range set to full range (21:108).
German translation of the manual.
Keyboard shortcut added for saving/restoring window configurations.
A warning is displayed when duplicated MIDI events are received.
Reverb switch entry added in the freeze filter.
Trim manually recording MIDI files in the standalone to remove any silence at the beginning.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/17/19 04:10 PM

I just upgraded myself to 6.5 on Mac OSX a few minutes ago and something strange is happening. The exact MIDI file which I saved of my ABF quarterly recital performance plays normally through 6.4, but in 6.5, it plays twice as fast. How can I slow it back down again? Is there a way to do a hard reset in Pianoteq?
Posted By: jamiecw

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/17/19 04:28 PM

Check your sequence duration Ty - top part of the main window just under the 6.5.0 heading. Should be set to x1 - also I assume the recording wasn't changed originally (speed wise)?
Posted By: Beakybird

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/17/19 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I just upgraded myself to 6.5 on Mac OSX a few minutes ago and something strange is happening. The exact MIDI file which I saved of my ABF quarterly recital performance plays normally through 6.4, but in 6.5, it plays twice as fast. How can I slow it back down again? Is there a way to do a hard reset in Pianoteq?


It's a new feature. In these modern times, people don't have time to listen to music at normal speed. smile
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/17/19 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by jamiecw
Check your sequence duration Ty - top part of the main window just under the 6.5.0 heading. Should be set to x1 - also I assume the recording wasn't changed originally (speed wise)?

Thanks! That was exactly it. I never noticed that before. I wonder why when I install 6.5.0 it immediately defaulted to 2x? Makes me worry about other settings.

How can I do a hard reset with Pianoteq and wipe out all nonvolatile, saved settings? For example, I am looking at the velocity curve graph, and I see it also is bizarre. Like the config files got corrupted during the installation.

Originally Posted by Beakybird
It's a new feature. In these modern times, people don't have time to listen to music at normal speed. smile

thumb
Posted By: jamiecw

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/17/19 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

How can I do a hard reset with Pianoteq and wipe out all nonvolatile, saved settings? For example, I am looking at the velocity curve graph, and I see it also is bizarre. Like the config files got corrupted during the installation.


I haven't done this, if someone else has please do chime in, but if you look under Preferences and then General there is a Folders area where all presets are kept. I assume if you delete the contents PTQ should rebuild these from scratch but I've never tried it so cannot vouch - worst case scenario remove all files and packages and re-install I guess..
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/17/19 04:49 PM

Originally Posted by jamiecw
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

How can I do a hard reset with Pianoteq and wipe out all nonvolatile, saved settings? For example, I am looking at the velocity curve graph, and I see it also is bizarre. Like the config files got corrupted during the installation.


I haven't done this, if someone else has please do chime in, but if you look under Preferences and then General there is a Folders area where all presets are kept. I assume if you delete the contents PTQ should rebuild these from scratch but I've never tried it so cannot vouch - worst case scenario remove all files and packages and re-install I guess..

Yeah, that's what I'm going to do. Remove everything and reinstall from scratch. Just need to hunt down all the preferences file locations on Mac OSX.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/17/19 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Yeah, that's what I'm going to do. Remove everything and reinstall from scratch. Just need to hunt down all the preferences file locations on Mac OSX.

Did not work. Even deleted a file which was called preferences plist. However after reinstalling Pianoteq, all the preferences were exactly as before and I know that's not correct. For example, instead of starting with Steinway D, it shows my favorite piano, C. Bechstein. Obviously there is a preference file hiding somewhere with that on OSX.
Posted By: Beakybird

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/17/19 07:41 PM

Tell Modart about this. They'll come out with an update within a week. I don't experience this bug.
What do people think of the sound ?
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/17/19 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by Beakybird
Tell Modart about this. They'll come out with an update within a week. I don't experience this bug.
What do people think of the sound ?

There is discussion in this thread about how 6.5 sounds.
Posted By: QuasiUnaFantasia

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/17/19 08:26 PM

Originally Posted by Beakybird

What do people think of the sound ?


Some of my Bechstein presets are now far too treble-rich, so I'll have to edit those, but others are better than before. I haven't tested the Steinway D much, but so far it seems better. Not much difference on the Grotrian. Generally I am pleased, although the alleged feature of restoring window positions does not seem to work out of the box for me.
Posted By: thickfingers

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/17/19 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
Some of my Bechstein presets are now far too treble-rich, so I'll have to edit those.

Tried your curves today, Quasi (6.5), the Bechstein sounds more metallic, not less. Not Woodier.
Posted By: QuasiUnaFantasia

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/17/19 08:44 PM

Originally Posted by thickfingers
Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
Some of my Bechstein presets are now far too treble-rich, so I'll have to edit those.

Tried your curves today, Quasi (6.5), the Bechstein sounds more metallic, not less. Not Woodier.


We must have different views on what "metallic" means with respect to piano sound. My velocity curves avoid the loud end of the sound spectrum, and the loud end is where the sound is at its most metallic (from my point of view.)
Posted By: Beakybird

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/17/19 08:50 PM

I make up pop songs, and I like the bright sound of the Bechstein Prelude. I just bought it in fact.

I hadn't tried Pianoteq's electric pianos in a long time, and I really felt like I had thrown my money out the window when I had purchased it, but a month ago, I played it, and I found the realism very compelling.

I play the guitar too, and I have so many Pianoteq instruments, I'll never play them all. But I bought the Bechstein because I found it inspiring.
Posted By: thickfingers

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/17/19 08:54 PM

Hmmm, maybe we have different ears. You hear a Steinway when I hear bongos.
Your posted 6.4 FP30 curves sound just the same in 6.5 to you, then?
Posted By: QuasiUnaFantasia

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/17/19 09:10 PM

Originally Posted by thickfingers
Hmmm, maybe we have different ears. You hear a Steinway when I hear bongos.
Your posted 6.4 FP30 curves sound just the same in 6.5 to you, then?


Yes, more or less. I haven't tested them specifically for changes with respect to the metallicness, but nothing stood out when I used them earlier today.

There are some sound differences, but I see them as primarily to do with equalization and not the velocity curves.
Posted By: thickfingers

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/17/19 09:28 PM

Interesting. Maybe the difference in perception is something to do with our different transducers. Haven't tried it with phones yet, just the speakers.
If tranducers does make a difference to the perceived sound of a particular curve, kind of makes a mockery of the PTQ forum's list of curves. At least, for instruments that require external speakers, like ours.
Posted By: jamiecw

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/17/19 10:13 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
[quote=Tyrone Slothrop]
Did not work. Even deleted a file which was called preferences plist. However after reinstalling Pianoteq, all the preferences were exactly as before and I know that's not correct. For example, instead of starting with Steinway D, it shows my favorite piano, C. Bechstein. Obviously there is a preference file hiding somewhere with that on OSX.


Okay - just removed and re-installed mine and all my saved presets etc. all gone (no biggie here for me as I tinker around with PTQ) - here's what I did:

1) Applications/Pianoteq 6/Uninstall (followed the step by step wizard and once finished I emptied out the trash, logically smile

2) In Terminal I used the: defaults write com.apple.Finder AppleShowAllFiles true and then the killall Finder commands to enable all system hidden folders...(not sure why this is but in my case I had to run the above commands twice in order to see the hidden folders/files)

3) In my home folder I deleted the Modartt folder under Library/Application Support/Modartt

4) Re-installed and activated PTQ 6.5 - et voila!

Optional steps (if you want to not display system hidden files/folders):
In terminal run (again twice as it does not work the first time around for me):
defaults write com.apple.Finder AppleShowAllFiles false
killall Finder
Posted By: peterws

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/17/19 10:49 PM

I think I'll wait before I d/l this latest incarnation . . .
Posted By: jamiecw

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/17/19 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by peterws
I think I'll wait before I d/l this latest incarnation . . .

That's fair...my doing was effectively lose all and start afresh...
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/17/19 11:05 PM

Originally Posted by jamiecw
Okay - just removed and re-installed mine and all my saved presets etc. all gone (no biggie here for me as I tinker around with PTQ) - here's what I did:

1) Applications/Pianoteq 6/Uninstall (followed the step by step wizard and once finished I emptied out the trash, logically smile

2) In Terminal I used the: defaults write com.apple.Finder AppleShowAllFiles true and then the killall Finder commands to enable all system hidden folders...(not sure why this is but in my case I had to run the above commands twice in order to see the hidden folders/files)

3) In my home folder I deleted the Modartt folder under Library/Application Support/Modartt

4) Re-installed and activated PTQ 6.5 - et voila!

Optional steps (if you want to not display system hidden files/folders):
In terminal run (again twice as it does not work the first time around for me):
defaults write com.apple.Finder AppleShowAllFiles false
killall Finder

Thanks Jamie! It was deleting the Library/Application Support/Modartt that did it! Reinstalled and it asked me to reactivate. Now everything looks normal. Don't know how it became corrupted but it's uncorrupted now smile
Posted By: Nordomus

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/18/19 01:25 PM

I've tested Pianoteq a bit and I think I'm near the point when I'd want to get the full version. Are there any discounts avaible from time to time? Where to look?

Suprisingly I think I like Petrof and Bechstein most but it's hard to tell without being able to actually play something without "blank" notes. I'm a bit puzzled why dynamic range is set so low by default. By logic it should be around 90-100 db? Yet it is 40 db on most pianos.
Posted By: Frédéric L

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/18/19 02:13 PM

The main Pianoteq discounts I remember is when a new piano is modeled, we can buy it bundled with one other piano. The second is 50% less expensive (25€ instead of 49€)
Posted By: EPW

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/18/19 03:33 PM

They have run a sale of 30% off in the summertime for the last several years. That is when I brought my license.
Posted By: Nordomus

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/18/19 03:34 PM

Well that's too bad. BTW I have a general question about Pianoteq, I'm kind of new to the topic and one thing caught my attention. Does USB midi allows for only 127 velocity levels? If so- is there a way to increase that?
Posted By: newer player

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/18/19 03:51 PM

You can send HD MIDI via USB.

I think PianoTeq is the only popular VI that uses HD MIDI.

There are very few digital pianos that transmit HD MIDI so that makes the "feature" DOA for most of us. Casio has released the most models that do HD MIDI out.

Also, there are periodic sales on PianoTeq. I posted one recently here.
Posted By: EPW

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/18/19 04:16 PM

My Casio PX5S that is five years old does HD MIDI or is it called Hi-Res MIDI?
Posted By: Nordomus

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/18/19 04:18 PM

Thank you, I don't see anywhere if Kawai CA 98 has this HD MIDI feature. What pianos for example have this? Honestly I'm trying to google it and I can't find single piano that has this thing mentioned.
Posted By: Tom Fort

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/18/19 04:21 PM

Originally Posted by newer player
You can send HD MIDI via USB.

I think PianoTeq is the only popular VI that uses HD MIDI.

There are very few digital pianos that transmit HD MIDI so that makes the "feature" DOA for most of us. Casio has released the most models that do HD MIDI out.


MIDI 2.0 has been announced and is in final steps before being released. When it is included in new keyboards (late this year or next spring/summer?), it will be much more common to feature the expanded range of velocity values.
Posted By: Frédéric L

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/18/19 04:29 PM

MIDI on USB is like plain MIDI. It is just exchanged faster. Then 127 levels.

An extension, Hi-Res MIDI Velocity transfer velocity on 14bits instead of 7, but it doesn’t imply the resolution is such high (it depends how the velocity is measured), but it enable transferring more than 127 levels. Very few digital pianos have this extension.

A note-on with 7bits velocity needs 1ms to be tranferred on a plain MIDI link. Using 14bits will need 2ms. Then a 3 notes chords could need 6ms. With USB, all the data could be sent quickly on the same packet, then the latency could be reduced to 1ms (USB1 pooling period) or less.
Posted By: Nordomus

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/18/19 04:31 PM

So the sale should be near? Summertime like June or something? smile

Getting back to those velocity values I'm surprised I've discovered this just now. I would consider it a flaw at this moment because digital pianos in general have much bigger velocity variable. I'm not sure about Kawai but Roland has 16000 or something like that. And of course acoustics have infinite smile
Posted By: Frédéric L

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/18/19 04:47 PM

We can get the MIDI impkementation of the RD800

https://static.roland.com/assets/media/pdf/RD-800_MIDI_Imple_e02_W.pdf

On the last page, the CC88 (high resolution velocity) is sent and recognised.

To be sure it has 16000 levels, we would have to record a set of notes roughly at the same velocity. If the levels 63.0, 63.3, 63.6... are sent but no levels between, this would mean we don’t have 16000.

The levels is (modulo an hardness curve), 1 divided by (measured time between two sensors). Then we could have an excellent resolution at low velocity, but a worse resolution at high velocity.

The Piano Phoenix (Adele H), an high grade foldable piano is claimed to permit 1300 levels, number determined by professional needs.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/18/19 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by Nordomus
Getting back to those velocity values I'm surprised I've discovered this just now. I would consider it a flaw at this moment because digital pianos in general have much bigger velocity variable. I'm not sure about Kawai but Roland has 16000 or something like that. And of course acoustics have infinite smile

You are talking about velocities which are initial key attack velocities. I don't believe this is an issue to worry about.

See @7:03:



Posted By: Nordomus

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/18/19 05:08 PM

Yes I've seen this video long time ago, I don't agree with it though, at least not with this part. When I do this "experiment" I can hear much more, even on digital. Maybe HE can hear only 10 or so levels, I can hear plenty more. And I'm talking about conscious hearing. I'm not gonna go into details, it's not topic for that smile
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/18/19 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by Nordomus
Yes I've seen this video long time ago, I don't agree with it though, at least not with this part. When I do this "experiment" I can hear much more, even on digital. Maybe HE can hear only 10 or so levels, I can hear plenty more. And I'm talking about conscious hearing. I'm not gonna go into details, it's not topic for that smile

He is not talking about hearing different levels. We all can distinguish way more levels then 10 when they are side-by-side comparisons. He is talking about using your fine motor controls to create levels. Do you have the fine motor control to consciously create more than 10 levels of dynamics? If so, your fine motor controls (in your fingers) are more precise than most concert pianists.
Posted By: Nordomus

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/18/19 05:37 PM

Almost everyone can do that while doing cresc or dim during piece. It doesn't matter if you can do it on one note. In note progression we all do it. Also the problem is hearing this, not playing, because our brain likes those little differences, even if we have trouble perceiving them.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/18/19 06:03 PM

Originally Posted by Nordomus
Almost everyone can do that while doing cresc or dim during piece. It doesn't matter if you can do it on one note. In note progression we all do it.

Are you game for a little test of your fine motor control?

A two octave scale has 15 notes. Run a midi monitor on your PC and a USB cable from your keyboard. Now with one hand, play a two octave C major scale cresc. all the way up and dim. all the way down. Now check your MIDI monitor output. Did you get 15 steadily progressing velocities on the MIDI monitor?
Posted By: Charles Cohen

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/18/19 06:08 PM

"High-resolution MIDI velocity" doesn't have an appreciably larger _range_ than "low-res MIDI". As its name suggests, it has higher _resolution_ -- more steps between "f" and "ff".

I haven't seen anyone claim that he can play piano with enough consistency (or hear with enough finesse) that he can tell the difference between "hi-res" and "normal" MIDI, for MIDI velocity.

. . . I'm willing to be proven wrong, by a blind test.

The problem of limited _dynamic range_ -- the difference in dB between "pppp" and "ffff",-- and of how that range should map into the range of actual _key velocity_, are still important. Pianoteq (and, I think, some other VST's) lets you control that, better than most "all-in-one" DP's.

But if I were choosing a DP (or MIDI controller, like the VPC-1), I wouldn't use "high-resolution MIDI ?" as an important criterion.
Posted By: Nordomus

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/18/19 06:21 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by Nordomus
Almost everyone can do that while doing cresc or dim during piece. It doesn't matter if you can do it on one note. In note progression we all do it.

Are you game for a little test of your fine motor control?

A two octave scale has 15 notes. Run a midi monitor on your PC and a USB cable from your keyboard. Now with one hand, play a two octave C major scale cresc. all the way up and dim. all the way down. Now check your MIDI monitor output. Did you get 15 steadily progressing velocities on the MIDI monitor?


I didn't say I can do that perfectly steady. I said that you have more than 10 different levels in such progression. Where did I claim I can do something like: 1-5-10-15 etc velocity progression? I might try that out of curiosity though to test myself smile Again it's about progression itself. I think Charles explained it well enough before me. I;ll to do that as well.

Most people can't control keys that well- true. But then again most musicians can hear those slight differences when they play and part of piano skill developement is improving control over sound and this is nothing different than controlling key velocity(as is said in video). And even if you can't play accurately certain velocity(which is obvious) like 25 for example then if you play 27 or 30 you will probably hear the difference, and that is my point. Brain doesn't want perfect sound and perfect dynamics and if in theory Pianoteq allows for very high velocity resolution(that's the best thing in modelling IMO) then it would be cool being able to use that. I don't know if I'm able to explain what I mean better smile
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/18/19 06:44 PM

Originally Posted by Nordomus
I didn't say I can do that perfectly steady. I said that you have more than 10 different levels in such progression. Where did I claim I can do something like: 1-5-10-15 etc velocity progression? I might try that out of curiosity though to test myself smile Again it's about progression itself. I think Charles explained it well enough before me. I;ll to do that as well.

Forget that I used the word "steadily", did you even get 15 progressive levels? I tried this myself by the way. I did not get 15 progressive levels, steadily or not.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/18/19 07:45 PM

Let’s suppose we really have a hi-res MIDI file. It means we have 16000 levels. The dynamic range of a piano is around 50dB. Which means that a single MIDI velocity step is 0.003dB. Can you hear that? wink Even at 127 steps that makes for 0.4dB a step. Can you hear that? smile 1dB is considered the smallest difference a golden ear can hear. Hi-res MIDI is a scam IMO. It’s the 24-bit of MIDI. Audiophilia everywhere...
Posted By: Beakybird

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/18/19 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Let’s suppose we really have a hi-res MIDI file. It means we have 16000 levels. The dynamic range of a piano is around 50dB. Which means that a single MIDI velocity step is 0.003dB. Can you hear that? wink Even at 127 steps that makes for 0.4dB a step. Can you hear that? smile 1dB is considered the smallest difference a golden ear can hear. Hi-res MIDI is a scam IMO. It’s the 24-bit of MIDI. Audiophilia everywhere...


I don't know, when I listen to a classical piece, and I hear a note-off velocity of 93 when it is supposed to be 93.42, my ears go ouch. I can't take it!
Posted By: Nordomus

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/18/19 08:40 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Let’s suppose we really have a hi-res MIDI file. It means we have 16000 levels. The dynamic range of a piano is around 50dB. Which means that a single MIDI velocity step is 0.003dB. Can you hear that? wink Even at 127 steps that makes for 0.4dB a step. Can you hear that? smile 1dB is considered the smallest difference a golden ear can hear. .


Dynamic range of piano is 50dB? Where did you get that number? This is what surprised me in Pianoteq as well as I wrote earlier. In pianoteq default is 40 dB which is ridiculously low. Anyway loudest piano can play is around 105 dB, queietesst around 20 or 30 I'd say? (wiki tells me that's the quiet talking loudness) so dynamic range is around 70-80 dB, On random website I've found it is clearly 70 dB between ppp and fff. Anyway what's more interesting is the thing you say about how we are able to hear only 1dB difference? I'm interested about that. Isn't this talk kind of like "people can't see more than 30 fps"?


Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Forget that I used the word "steadily", did you even get 15 progressive levels? I tried this myself by the way. I did not get 15 progressive levels, steadily or not.

Really? Gonna try it in free time, one can never know without measuring so I'm interested in the results now smile
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/18/19 09:09 PM

Let someone do an easy test with Pianoteq. Program one and same repeating note with alternating velocities like 64, 65, 64, 65, etc. We can try at various velocity ranges, keyboard ranges and note durations. And if we can hear a single step in the standard MIDI 2-127 values we can then also test with high-res MIDI.
Posted By: siros

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/19/19 01:40 AM

I have Roland RD-800 with Hi-Res MIDI ... I tested (playing) it with Pianoteq with Hi-Res MIDI enable/disable, switching back and forth.
It doesn't give wider dynamic range.
It doesn't give finer control over dynamic control (0-127 is plenty enough for human playing).
In fact, I couldn't remember if it is enable right now. It doesn't make a difference to a player.

What it gives is ... higher (i.e. different) velocity values.
Maybe for some other instruments that can make use of bigger velocity range, but for piano I can't see it necessary.
Posted By: newer player

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/19/19 04:28 AM

I think the HD MIDI might be relevant beyond just finer velocity steps, which may or may not be perceivable to the average player at say the 1db level.

However, combining finer steps of velocity AND timbre, small changes might be perceivable and might more closely approximate the "natural variation" of an acoustic instrument.

On the other hand, asking current speaker and headphone technology to reproduce such subtlety may be a bridge too far.

I notice subtle differences repeating notes on an acoustic piano (and some other acoustic instruments for that matter), but don't notice such differences on my piano VIs, which grows somewhat boring. I think PianoTeq runs some random variance in sound but that is different.

Some of us might speculate that CyberGene is so happy with his new piano thanks to some secret internal HD MIDI scheme.
Posted By: Granyala

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/19/19 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Are you game for a little test of your fine motor control?

Oi, me want to do that!
Needed a few attempts, never tried to play a scale like that before. laugh

Careful, construction workers hands coming through!

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Nordomus

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/19/19 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by newer player
I think the HD MIDI might be relevant beyond just finer velocity steps, which may or may not be perceivable to the average player at say the 1db level.

However, combining finer steps of velocity AND timbre, small changes might be perceivable and might more closely approximate the "natural variation" of an acoustic instrument.

This. It's not all about volume, velocity affects whole piano sound since it's the only thing we can control while pressing keys smile
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/19/19 10:03 AM

Timbre changes only very slightly between similar velocities. It’s absurd you can distinguish timbre and volume changes (even combined) between thousands of adjacent steps.
Posted By: Frédéric L

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/19/19 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Timbre changes only very slightly between similar velocities. It’s absurd you can distinguish timbre and volume changes (even combined) between thousands of adjacent steps.

I agree, this explains why VST could work with only 10-20 layers (only 10-20 different timbres), but adjust the volume depending of the velocity.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/19/19 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by Granyala
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Are you game for a little test of your fine motor control?

Oi, me want to do that!
Needed a few attempts, never tried to play a scale like that before. laugh

Careful, construction workers hands coming through!

[Linked Image]

You're results are like mine. I must have tried 20 times and could not get a progressive cresc. and dim,
Posted By: Granyala

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/19/19 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
You're results are like mine. I must have tried 20 times and could not get a progressive cresc. and dim,

I'm sure my teacher could do that.
Hey, at least I managed some resemblance of linearity between B3 and G4. laugh
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/19/19 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by Granyala
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
You're results are like mine. I must have tried 20 times and could not get a progressive cresc. and dim,

I'm sure my teacher could do that.

I'd like to think my teacher could too. But on the other hand, I think John Mortensen is a professor of piano performance and a Steinway Artist, and if he could manage a continuous progression in dynamics (never mind "steadily" or "linear") himself over 15 ascending/descending notes, he likely would not have made that video or it would have been different in its content. I came to his video with an open mind. I watched it and was a skeptic. I tried it myself and decided he had something there.

Originally Posted by Granyala
Hey, at least I managed some resemblance of linearity between B3 and G4. laugh

I have no doubt that if instead of about 20 times, I had tried 2000 times, at least one of those times, I would have had a progression from C3 to C5 (in mathematics it's called a "monotonic function," one that increases without reversals or duplications in value or decreases without reversals or duplication). But then doing this 2000 times wouldn't show it's consciously reproducible.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/19/19 01:12 PM

Hm, I just noticed in another thread the “Bechstein Digital Grand” sample based VST made by Bechstein themselves. I thought that particular DG reference was a fancy name invented by Pianoteq but a second read of their description actually confirms they modeled their sound after the samples of an actual piano and not after an actual piano. Which actually confirms once again a previous statement some of us have made: Pianoteq synthesizes the sound in a way that recreates a pre-recorded sound. Whether they can also model the physical object which we call “piano” rather than approaching recorded waves is a matter of dispute. Or maybe they support both? Even simultaneously? But since Bechstein DG is to my ears the least synthetic Pianoteq model so far (although I can still detect some hints of it), I’m wondering if it’s the way Pianoteq should utilize most in future.
Posted By: Beakybird

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/19/19 01:15 PM

There are things the ear is extremely sensitive to, like distinguishing human voices and all of the subtle emotions conveyed in speech. But I can't think of any MIDI value where HI-res MIDI can be distinguishable from regular MIDI. Pitch? Volume? Velocity? 127 gradations is plenty.
As Hi-res MIDI is CPU friendly and compatible with regular MIDI devices, why not?
Posted By: peterws

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 05/30/19 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by Beakybird
Tell Modart about this. They'll come out with an update within a week. I don't experience this bug.
What do people think of the sound ?


Much better all round, I'd say. Just acquired it a day or two ago; all the pianos sound great and different. K2 is so usable and seems to sound like my old DGX. D4 is much improved along with Petrof and the good old Bluthner.
I'll try all the ones I haven't got soon . . . dammit, how many do i actually need?
Posted By: Nordomus

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 06/08/19 11:54 AM

I have 2 more questions about Pianoteq:
-when can I expect it to be on sale, some people said "summer" is it like regular thing? June, July or August?
-I've learned that buying Pianoteq means that you can update it for only a year, how much for prolonging license?
Posted By: Frédéric L

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 06/08/19 12:43 PM

If you buy the version 6, you will be allowed to download all 6.xx.

When the v7 will arrive, it will cost 29€ to upgrade an older version.
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 06/08/19 01:35 PM

Or just get the free trial edition.
It has a half-dozen or so of notes that don't play.
But those sound better than any of the others! smile
Posted By: QuasiUnaFantasia

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 06/08/19 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by Nordomus

-when can I expect it to be on sale, some people said "summer" is it like regular thing? June, July or August?


Last year, on the 16th of August, I received their newsletter where a "Summer sale" was announced. The offer was 30% off the Standard version, and 30% off the upgrade price from Stage to Standard version.
Posted By: thickfingers

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 06/08/19 02:10 PM

Originally Posted by MacMacMac

It has a half-dozen or so of notes that don't play.
But those sound better than any of the others! smile

Who told you that? Whoever it was, he had no right to...you've been had , by a dogmatic trickster. Says the thick'ster. Ooh, it rhymes.
Posted By: Nordomus

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 06/08/19 03:08 PM

Thank you all for informations smile Gonna sign up for newsletter then, also 30 euro for upgrade is not that bad. Still, I initially thought that once you buy Pianoteq you get all the future versions, oh well.
Posted By: Beakybird

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 06/08/19 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by Frédéric L
If you buy the version 6, you will be allowed to download all 6.xx.

When the v7 will arrive, it will cost 29€ to upgrade an older version.

If a new version comes out within a year of your purchase, I'm pretty sure that the upgrade is free.
Posted By: Tom Fort

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 06/08/19 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by Nordomus
I have 2 more questions about Pianoteq:
-when can I expect it to be on sale, some people said "summer" is it like regular thing? June, July or August?
-I've learned that buying Pianoteq means that you can update it for only a year, how much for prolonging license?



Pianoteq's website is exceptionally clear-- after you buy Pianoteq, you get free updates to the next version of what you bought for one year. After that, you would pay $30 for a major version upgrade. I bought v5, and within a year v6 came out. It was automatically and immediately available to me in the download area. I've continued to upgrade for free up to v6.5. When v7 comes out, I will need to pay $30 to upgrade, which I almost certainly will do. When this occurs, I will also be eligible for any updates to instruments I own in v7, and I will continue to get incremental upgrades through all of v7 for no additional cost.

I have found Pianoteq to be responsive to support requests, helpful in their forums, and fair and reasonable regarding their pricing decisions. More than I can say for nearly any other company, I must say. Their only "fault" is not heeding my continued requests to make Pianoteq available on iOS.
Posted By: Nordomus

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 06/08/19 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by Tom Fort
I must say. Their only "fault" is not heeding my continued requests to make Pianoteq available on iOS.


Yeah I'm also waiting for that. Should be possible on iPads, current mobile CPUs should handle it without any problems.
Edit: Waaaaait I just checked, there is no version for macs it seems...
Posted By: QuasiUnaFantasia

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 06/08/19 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by Nordomus
Originally Posted by Tom Fort
I must say. Their only "fault" is not heeding my continued requests to make Pianoteq available on iOS.


Yeah I'm also waiting for that. Should be possible on iPads, current mobile CPUs should handle it without any problems.
Edit: Waaaaait I just checked, there is no version for macs it seems...


On their website it says: "Mac OS X 10.7 or later".

https://www.pianoteq.com/pianoteq6
Posted By: Frédéric L

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 06/08/19 03:45 PM

There are versions for Windows, MacOS and Linux.
Posted By: EPW

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 06/08/19 03:47 PM

You all are to quick for me. Yep there is a Mac version.
https://www.pianoteq.com/buy
Posted By: QuasiUnaFantasia

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 06/08/19 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by EPW
You all are to quick for me. Yep there is a Mac version.
https://www.pianoteq.com/buy


You just got to work some trills. That'll speed up your typing. smile
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 06/08/19 03:53 PM

I use my Pianoteq on both Mac and PC since each purchase licenses 3 devices. I use the Windows 10 when I am playing live. I use the Mac version to convert my MIDI recordings.
Posted By: Nordomus

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 06/08/19 04:22 PM

My bad, other systems were hidden on their website. So we wait for iPad version smile
Posted By: peterws

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 06/08/19 04:46 PM

i'm just hoping they don't do away with Vista . . .it's no longer on their list!
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 06/08/19 04:49 PM

Originally Posted by peterws
i'm just hoping they don't do away with Vista . . .it's no longer on their list!

Maybe you could take that as a hint? wink
Posted By: Granyala

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 06/08/19 08:25 PM

Originally Posted by peterws
i'm just hoping they don't do away with Vista . . .it's no longer on their list!

Seriously?
You are still running vista?
I sure hope that device isn't connected to the internet anymore. laugh
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 06/08/19 08:33 PM

Originally Posted by Granyala
Originally Posted by peterws
i'm just hoping they don't do away with Vista . . .it's no longer on their list!

Seriously?
You are still running vista?
I sure hope that device isn't connected to the internet anymore. laugh

peterws is being unique and special - only 1 in 200 Windows users are Vista users! smile
Posted By: peterws

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 06/08/19 10:00 PM

Originally Posted by Granyala
Originally Posted by peterws
i'm just hoping they don't do away with Vista . . .it's no longer on their list!

Seriously?
You are still running vista?
I sure hope that device isn't connected to the internet anymore. laugh


I connect it via Firefox. It effectively d/ls Pianoteq updates without fuss. But it won'r play 'em; I have to load them onto a memory stick and load it back from that.
Posted By: Jethro

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 - 06/08/19 10:04 PM

To my ears Cybergenes performance of the actual piece and my subsequent enjoyment of the piece is much greater with the Pianoteq modeled samples then with the other mic’d samples. He had better control, sensitivity, and articulation when he played with pianoteq. The Garritan and NX1 when listening strictly to the melody were too notey to the point that I had a harder time discerning which note was accented and which ones weren’t. This is what I find when I switch for example between Ravenscroft and Pianoteq 6. Pianoteq just allows for more controllable expression compared to mic’d samples and it’s easy to discern when I listen to recordings such as these. I think good piano playing is all about refined control and in the digital world if a program or product gets you closer to the control you experience in the acoustic world it’s a good product to invest in.
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