Piano World Home Page

Objective view to Lachnit MK23

Posted By: nicknameTaken

Objective view to Lachnit MK23 - 04/15/19 09:42 AM

Hello,

as many of you know, there is a custom Keyboard existing with a Fatar TP40W action.
http://www.flkeys.at/OrderEng.html
It's regulated, adjusted and they made a new light-sensor technology.
It's price is quite high (3990 EUR) but it's handcrafted.

Now, I have done research in many forums and they suggest that the Fatar TP40W is outclassed by the Yamaha NW-GX/GH action and the Roland PHA50 action for example.

I'd wonder if this investment does objectively any sense for the aim of the best action in a digital slab.

As many of you guys may already know, I'm no fan of the Kawai actions in digital slabs, but I kinda like the GF II in the furniture ones.
But if I had the choice, I'd pick the P515 NWX action over the GF II (because preference).

Money is an object. I do not intend to spend any money when it's just not worth.

Best,
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 - 04/15/19 09:51 AM

Have you tried this piano for yourself?
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
I have done research in many forums and they suggest that the Fatar TP40W is outclassed by the Yamaha NW-GX/GH action and the Roland PHA50 action for example.
It seems that you've read the opinions of others. But do those opinions matter?
In my view such opinions are nothing more than a suggestion, waiting for my own evaluation.
I've not tried this piano. Have you?

In the end this could be your piano ... and your opinion is the only one that matters.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 - 04/15/19 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Hello,

as many of you know, there is a custom Keyboard existing with a Fatar TP40W action.
http://www.flkeys.at/OrderEng.html
It's regulated, adjusted and they made a new light-sensor technology.
It's price is quite high (3990 EUR) but it's handcrafted.

Now, I have done research in many forums and they suggest that the Fatar TP40W is outclassed by the Yamaha NW-GX/GH action and the Roland PHA50 action for example.

I'd wonder if this investment does objectively any sense for the aim of the best action in a digital slab.

As many of you guys may already know, I'm no fan of the Kawai actions in digital slabs, but I kinda like the GF II in the furniture ones.
But if I had the choice, I'd pick the P515 NWX action over the GF II (because preference).

Money is an object. I do not intend to spend any money when it's just not worth.

Best,

If you are willing to spend that level of money, have you considered a Ravenworks VPC1?

I was considering it earlier, but the only way to test it seems to be to visit their facility in Scottsdale, Arizona. And for this amount of money, It didn't make sense to me given there were later actions such as the Grand Feel I and Grand Feel II, even without considering the hybrids.

Still, there are a number of videos online and there is at least one current advanced pianist on PW who has posted before that he personally has tried this custom VPC1 and then said words of high praise for it. If interested in exploring this more, I assume you could PM him for further comments.

I also have some remarks I exchanged with the owner of Ravenworks via email which I could share with you via PM, if you were interested in pursuing this.
Posted By: nicknameTaken

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 - 04/15/19 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Have you tried this piano for yourself?
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
I have done research in many forums and they suggest that the Fatar TP40W is outclassed by the Yamaha NW-GX/GH action and the Roland PHA50 action for example.
It seems that you've read the opinions of others. But do those opinions matter?
In my view such opinions are nothing more than a suggestion, waiting for my own evaluation.
I've not tried this piano. Have you?

In the end this could be your piano ... and your opinion is the only one that matters.


You are so right. Well, I go very far to get the utmost best for my use.
I have not tried it as well. But speaking with the Fa. Lachnit, they answered: the price won't raise if sent to Germany.
I thought it would mean 20% more.
Posted By: Cheshire Chris

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 - 04/15/19 09:57 AM

It would have to be a heck of a lot better than the P-515 to justify well over 3x the price. But as Mac says, your view is the one that matters! To my mind, though, you really can't go wrong with a P-515. Good keyboard action, nice voices, and versatile connectivity options.

EDIT: I've just noticed that the forum software edits posts. I typed H-E-L-L, not "heck" smile.

Posted By: nicknameTaken

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 - 04/15/19 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Hello,

as many of you know, there is a custom Keyboard existing with a Fatar TP40W action.
http://www.flkeys.at/OrderEng.html
It's regulated, adjusted and they made a new light-sensor technology.
It's price is quite high (3990 EUR) but it's handcrafted.

Now, I have done research in many forums and they suggest that the Fatar TP40W is outclassed by the Yamaha NW-GX/GH action and the Roland PHA50 action for example.

I'd wonder if this investment does objectively any sense for the aim of the best action in a digital slab.

As many of you guys may already know, I'm no fan of the Kawai actions in digital slabs, but I kinda like the GF II in the furniture ones.
But if I had the choice, I'd pick the P515 NWX action over the GF II (because preference).

Money is an object. I do not intend to spend any money when it's just not worth.

Best,

If you are willing to spend that level of money, have you considered a Ravenworks VPC1?

I was considering it earlier, but the only way to test it seems to be to visit their facility in Scottsdale, Arizona. And for this amount of money, It didn't make sense to me given there were later actions such as the Grand Feel I and Grand Feel II, even without considering the hybrids.

Still, there are a number of videos online and there is at least one current advanced pianist on PW who personally has tried this custom VPC1 and had words of high praise for it, and if interested, I assume you could PM him for further comments.


Importing from USA comes at a high cost.

The already very expensive VPC1 would be with estimated 1200 eur extra cost.

Not to mention that I don't like the VPC1 per se because it's a bit 'too heavy' even among acoustics.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 - 04/15/19 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Not to mention that I don't like the VPC1 per se because it's a bit 'too heavy' even among acoustics.

Actually this is one of the things which he can change and he can customize. He essentially spends 40 hours custom-regulating each key as if the VPC1 is an acoustic piano. (In fact - just musing aloud here - is 40 hours even more than regulation of a real grand piano takes?) He can essentially make the action as heavy or as light as you want, you'd just have to ask him.

BTW, he is the master piano technician that created the Ravenscroft grand.
Posted By: nicknameTaken

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 - 04/15/19 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Not to mention that I don't like the VPC1 per se because it's a bit 'too heavy' even among acoustics.

Actually this is one of the things which he can change and he can customize. He essentially spends 40 hours custom-regulating each key as if the VPC1 is an acoustic piano. (In fact - just musing aloud here - is 40 hours even more than regulation of a real grand piano takes?)


When I mailed Ravenworks, they told me

> I can't really compare the performance of our controllers with much else on
> the market than a stock VPC1. We are essentially refining a production
> instrument and setting the regulation perimeters that we can control to
> match the action of our Ravenscroft 275 Grand Piano as closely as possible.
> My advice to people, especially to those who are unable to come to the US,
> is to find their local Kawai dealer and try a stock VPC1. Chances are
> pretty good that if you like the way that they feel, then they will
> appreciate our controllers as well.

Addition

> our Modified VPC1 weighs around 80 lbs or 36.2 kg.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 - 04/15/19 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Actually this is one of the things which he can change and he can customize. He essentially spends 40 hours custom-regulating each key as if the VPC1 is an acoustic piano. (In fact - just musing aloud here - is 40 hours even more than regulation of a real grand piano takes?)

When I mailed Ravenworks, they told me

> I can't really compare the performance of our controllers with much else on
> the market than a stock VPC1. We are essentially refining a production
> instrument and setting the regulation perimeters that we can control to
> match the action of our Ravenscroft 275 Grand Piano as closely as possible.
> My advice to people, especially to those who are unable to come to the US,
> is to find their local Kawai dealer and try a stock VPC1. Chances are
> pretty good that if you like the way that they feel, then they will
> appreciate our controllers as well.

Addition

> our Modified VPC1 weighs around 80 lbs or 36.2 kg.


I had no idea that the Ravencroft 275 has almost exactly the same weight of keys as the VPC1. Thats for that info. Wow, that changes my perspective. That would also be unacceptable for me. Good I am looking at N1X and NV10 now, instead.

Yes, he seems less flexible in his email to you than when I emailed him on customizing key weight back in December. Perhaps customizing is just too much trouble.
Posted By: nicknameTaken

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 - 04/15/19 10:19 AM

It reads like:

They matching the VPC 1 to feel similar to the Ravenworks 275 Grand Piano.
They say, if you like the stock VPC 1, chances are that you like the custom VPC1.
That does imply:

The stock VPC 1 is already somewhat similar to the http://www.ravenscroftpianos.com/275-features.php Ravenworks 275 Grand Piano, yet not close enough.

They still use the original VPC-1 action, with all it's drawbacks..

Here is a citate from the website, they do:

Sizing of Key Pin & Balance Rail Bushings
Addition of Quality Piano Key-End Felt
Custom Key Dip
Squaring, Spacing, & Leveling of Keys
Proprietary Precision Friction Analysis & Weight Placement Determination
Proprietary Bismuth Key Weighting Procedure
The Manufacturing of Our Bismuth Weights
Key Weight Installation Procedure

Posted By: Cheshire Chris

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 - 04/15/19 10:27 AM

You're very much into the area of diminishing returns when entering this pricing area, I think. Are you a sufficiently accomplished pianist that you'll be able to appreciate the benefits of a hand-crafted keyboard? I'm not, and I very much doubt that I ever will be.
Posted By: nicknameTaken

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 - 04/15/19 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by Cheshire Chris
You're very much into the area of diminishing returns when entering this pricing area, I think. Are you a sufficiently accomplished pianist that you'll be able to appreciate the benefits of a hand-crafted keyboard? I'm not, and I very much doubt that I ever will be.


You are probably right. I did face this 'issue' in another area.
Headphones.

I own a pair of DT 990 pro with a O2 ODAC Headphone DAC amp and still, the Audeze LCD-2 Classic for a lot of more cash does not feel superior enough to justify the price. It's also too heavy for my head.
On the DT 990 Pro, I have to change the earpads every once in a while, since I wear it almost 24/7.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 - 04/15/19 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
It reads like:

They matching the VPC 1 to feel similar to the Ravenworks 275 Grand Piano.
They say, if you like the stock VPC 1, chances are that you like the custom VPC1.
That does imply:

The stock VPC 1 is already somewhat similar to the http://www.ravenscroftpianos.com/275-features.php Ravenworks 275 Grand Piano, yet not close enough.

They still use the original VPC-1 action, with all it's drawbacks..

Here is a citate from the website, they do:

Sizing of Key Pin & Balance Rail Bushings
Addition of Quality Piano Key-End Felt
Custom Key Dip
Squaring, Spacing, & Leveling of Keys
Proprietary Precision Friction Analysis & Weight Placement Determination
Proprietary Bismuth Key Weighting Procedure
The Manufacturing of Our Bismuth Weights
Key Weight Installation Procedure


Thanks again. In any case, reading about Friedrich Lachnit, it seems his qualifications are the same or similar as in the case of the Ravenworks VPC1 owner, which is a plus, in view. Such modifications should only be made by an expert piano technician.

Have you tried a Fatar TP40W keyboard action, such as in a Studiologics controller? Or in a Nord? If not yet, it seems like you should try that out just in case the Lachnit process also doesn't change the character of the keybed from the original.
Posted By: nicknameTaken

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 - 04/15/19 10:40 AM

Quote

Have you tried a Fatar TP40W keyboard action, such as in a Studiologics controller? Or in a Nord? If not yet, it seems like you should try that out just in case the Lachnit process also doesn't change the character of the keybed from the original.


Thanks for the info. I tried the Nord Electro 3 two weeks ago and it was waaaaaaaaaay to light for me. It was comparable to a synth action.
I'm not sure if the Nord Electro 3 is in any way comparable to the Fatar TP40W action

I think I've tested two different Nord instruments that time, and both were not heavy enough.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 - 04/15/19 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Quote

Have you tried a Fatar TP40W keyboard action, such as in a Studiologics controller? Or in a Nord? If not yet, it seems like you should try that out just in case the Lachnit process also doesn't change the character of the keybed from the original.


Thanks for the info. I tried the Nord Electro 3 two weeks ago and it was waaaaaaaaaay to light for me. It was comparable to a synth action.
I'm not sure if the Nord Electro 3 is in any way comparable to the Fatar TP40W action

Just purely googling, I see the Nord Electro 3 HP uses the Fatar TP/100. It seems I was wrong about the TP/40WOOD being in a Nord. The Nord Piano 2 uses something called the "TP40GH wood," which could be different.
Posted By: nicknameTaken

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 - 04/15/19 11:49 AM

Well. I think I just go with the Yamaha P515 set which comes with the triple pedal and the stand.
Then using it with PianoTeq.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 - 04/15/19 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Well. I think I just go with the Yamaha P515 set which comes with the triple pedal and the stand.
Then using it with PianoTeq.

Could be a good choice. If you are going to use Pianoteq, you might also consider using a velocity editor add-on. MacMacMac mentioned a free one in another thread. I am not using one yet, but I definitely could use one myself and probably will depending on what keyboard I upgrade to and if I end up using Pianoteq with it as I do now with my current DP.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 - 04/15/19 12:49 PM

+1 on the P-515\Pianoteq combo. It is a phenomenal setup. The stand is solid enough to prevent any significant wobbling, and the pedal board will never move under your feet.
Posted By: Cheshire Chris

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 - 04/15/19 01:06 PM

Good choice - I find the P-515 to be very good indeed. I'd just try the keyboard on its own first, before spending more on VSTs. I think personally that the internal voices are very good indeed.
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 - 04/15/19 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
It reads like:

They matching the VPC 1 to feel similar to the Ravenworks 275 Grand Piano.
They say, if you like the stock VPC 1, chances are that you like the custom VPC1.
That does imply:

The stock VPC 1 is already somewhat similar to the http://www.ravenscroftpianos.com/275-features.php Ravenworks 275 Grand Piano, yet not close enough.

They still use the original VPC-1 action, with all it's drawbacks..

Here is a citate from the website, they do:

Sizing of Key Pin & Balance Rail Bushings
Addition of Quality Piano Key-End Felt
Custom Key Dip
Squaring, Spacing, & Leveling of Keys
Proprietary Precision Friction Analysis & Weight Placement Determination
Proprietary Bismuth Key Weighting Procedure
The Manufacturing of Our Bismuth Weights
Key Weight Installation Procedure


I wonder if Ravenworks managed to remove the "soft" or "mushy" feeling that happens when bottoming out a key. This is one of the characteristics of the unmodified GF-I and GF-II and is a result of the "hammer" pressing against the hammer felt/damping material. Replacing the felts damping the key will not change this.
Posted By: nicknameTaken

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 - 04/15/19 02:53 PM

Hmm. Thinking harder...
Actually I couldn't take the thought not going with hi-res midi cc#88 through pianoteq when I can have it.
Also the MK23 has this neat velocity knobs...
I really have to save up and try it, if it's not good, I'll send it back.
It can take time tho.
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 - 04/15/19 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Hmm. Thinking harder...
Actually I couldn't take the thought not going with hi-res midi cc#88 through pianoteq when I can have it.
Also the MK23 has this neat velocity knobs...
I really have to save up and try it, if it's not good, I'll send it back.
It can take time tho.

Why do you want hi-res MIDI for note-on/off velocity? For knobs, wheels and other controllers it may make some sense, but I wonder why you want it for note velocity...

If you want a good action then save for a N1X or NV10. And if your plan is to use VST only, then buy a N1.
Posted By: Pedro Ruiz

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 - 04/15/19 03:48 PM

For less than that price you can get a Kawai MP11SE, which has a better Kawai GrandFeel action (IMO only Hybrid actions from Kawai Novus NV10 and Yamahas AvantGrands are above that GrandFeel action and its update GrandFeel II), same portability, Kawai SK-EX samples....

Not much a fan of Fatar actions... and I have owned quite a few of them.

BEST REGARDS
Posted By: nicknameTaken

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 - 04/15/19 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Hmm. Thinking harder...
Actually I couldn't take the thought not going with hi-res midi cc#88 through pianoteq when I can have it.
Also the MK23 has this neat velocity knobs...
I really have to save up and try it, if it's not good, I'll send it back.
It can take time tho.

Why do you want hi-res MIDI for note-on/off velocity? For knobs, wheels and other controllers it may make some sense, but I wonder why you want it for note velocity...

If you want a good action then save for a N1X or NV10. And if your plan is to use VST only, then buy a N1.


Because higher midi res results in better pianoteq sound. http://www.flkeys.at/FLKFaqEng.html#4096
Originally Posted by Pedro Ruiz
For less than that price you can get a Kawai MP11SE, which has a better Kawai GrandFeel action (IMO only Hybrid actions from Kawai Novus NV10 and Yamahas AvantGrands are above that GrandFeel action and its update GrandFeel II), same portability, Kawai SK-EX samples....

Not much a fan of Fatar actions... and I have owned quite a few of them.

BEST REGARDS


The implementation of that same action with way different tech behind it is a different story.
If I dislike it, I still can send it back.

I dislike the action in all of the portable Kawai. The Grand Feel II in the CA 78 is just something in the middle. And I don't want a Hybrid Action. I want something portable.

Posted By: Pete14

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 - 04/15/19 04:37 PM

Originally Posted by Pedro Ruiz
For less than that price you can get a Kawai MP11SE, which has a better Kawai GrandFeel action (IMO only Hybrid actions from Kawai Novus NV10 and Yamahas AvantGrands are above that GrandFeel action and its update GrandFeel II), same portability, Kawai SK-EX samples....

Not much a fan of Fatar actions... and I have owned quite a few of them.

BEST REGARDS


Pedro, why did you retire from MLB? I was a huge fan of your famous ‘fast ball’.
Oh well, at least it’s good to know you play the piano, too. wink
Posted By: Cheshire Chris

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 - 04/15/19 04:38 PM

It sounds to me as if you’re perhaps more in love with the idea of owning the “ultimate keyboard” than in actually playing the piano. A serious case of GAS?
Posted By: nicknameTaken

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 - 04/15/19 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by Cheshire Chris
It sounds to me as if you’re perhaps more in love with the idea of owning the “ultimate keyboard” than in actually playing the piano. A serious case of GAS?


Exactly. I want to find the best laugh

Well...
It's not only that. I don't want to have the feeling that the instrument is at fault.
Posted By: newer player

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 - 04/15/19 04:58 PM

I think you should make a weekend trip to Austria and try for yourself. Especially given cost of keyboard. The shops seem to be uber-skilled but we as players are all are very individual relating to actions and VIs.

As you know, Lachnit customizes the Fatar action and developed a custom optical sensor/software package. RavensWorks principally customizes the Kawai action.

Lachnit teardown and sensors - quick videos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIkSVkfQU5k
https://youtu.be/QzjGfjB4fyc?t=19

Ravensworks VPC at Arizona factory bonus 60 second highlight photos/narrative
https://youtu.be/BUC0xU7OX54?t=708

Detailed Lachnit positive & critical observations from angelvoicemusic in the comments of this 2015 video. Some of these comments are for MIDI and computer "issues" so have nothing to do with Lachnit. He plays really well. He uses several other keyboards in more recent videos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daQkQQdc6lo

"I could write a book... this synthogy american grand is good enough for me, also the pianoteq plug-in is ok. After a lot of research I found out, that it is very important, to have a controller keyboard with fast electronic, the USB/MIDI connetion. We have to factors: At first, if you play a chord, some DP/controllers have big difficulties to transport those notes in time (close together) to the software plugin. Recording them in a DAW you see the notes spread, dispersed. This makes it very unnatural. I feel a big difference to the real piano! Second thing is, even if you play one single note, when will the MIDI- information appear in the DAW? Some are really bad, some not so bad. The MK-22 is definately one of the best concerning this aspects, but it is in my opinion too expensive and the keys are too light, the fingers have not enough counterweight, or better say oscillation weight. It's a FATAR- Problem. I have the VPC-1... there's no Fatar inside, but it is too slow in both aspects, sorry.

My hot favoriteactually: Roland a-88. See how much fun some of the best players in the world have on demo videos for the new spectrasonics keyscape plugin.
I'm absolutley sure, they do not only enjoy the plugin, they feel good because the a-88 has very little delays... compared to most other kb. It is quite fast in both aspects. I measured many keyboards by recording them in logic. The a-88 keys are not as nice as the VPC-1 ones, but it is not expensive, not too heavy and it's timing closer to the natural pianos than most other controllers.

Our big problem is, that a real piano needs only 0,5ms, the dispers- aspect does simply not exist! And the big companies seem to have no idea about the problem. If they build a to some degree good controller keyboard, they seem like doing it inadvertently. The more players are aware of this inaccuracy and demand for better keyboards, the better! "
Posted By: Cheshire Chris

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 - 04/15/19 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Originally Posted by Cheshire Chris
It sounds to me as if you’re perhaps more in love with the idea of owning the “ultimate keyboard” than in actually playing the piano. A serious case of GAS?


Exactly. I want to find the best laugh

Well...
It's not only that. I don't want to have the feeling that the instrument is at fault.


Fair enough, but you said in a previous post, IIRC, that you’ve only ever previously owned entry-level keyboards. Surely you can strike a happy medium between those and an ultra-expensive hand-crafted instrument and get something where the instrument won’t be a limiting factor in your playing without spending the earth? Think of all the time you could be spending actually playing rather than waiting years while you save up for this stratospherically-priced keyboard! Unless you’re a concert pianist, a decent slab piano such as a P-515, MP11SE, etc, is not going to be the limiting factor in your playing; your skill as a pianist will be.
Posted By: Marcos Daniel

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 - 04/15/19 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by Pedro Ruiz
For less than that price you can get a Kawai MP11SE, which has a better Kawai GrandFeel action (IMO only Hybrid actions from Kawai Novus NV10 and Yamahas AvantGrands are above that GrandFeel action and its update GrandFeel II), same portability, Kawai SK-EX samples....

Not much a fan of Fatar actions... and I have owned quite a few of them.

BEST REGARDS

+1
Posted By: slobajudge

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 - 04/15/19 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Hello,

as many of you know, there is a custom Keyboard existing with a Fatar TP40W action.
http://www.flkeys.at/OrderEng.html
It's regulated, adjusted and they made a new light-sensor technology.
It's price is quite high (3990 EUR) but it's handcrafted.

Now, I have done research in many forums and they suggest that the Fatar TP40W is outclassed by the Yamaha NW-GX/GH action and the Roland PHA50 action for example.

I'd wonder if this investment does objectively any sense for the aim of the best action in a digital slab.

As many of you guys may already know, I'm no fan of the Kawai actions in digital slabs, but I kinda like the GF II in the furniture ones.
But if I had the choice, I'd pick the P515 NWX action over the GF II (because preference).

Money is an object. I do not intend to spend any money when it's just not worth.

Best,

My friend who is professional musician (jazz and classical) have contact with Lachnit. He was in Vienna to try that DP (I think it was MK22) and the action for him was too light almost like semi weight. They said to him that for 1000 euros more on default price they will put harder action. This was last year and I dont know if something has changed in the meantime.
Posted By: nicknameTaken

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 - 04/15/19 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by Cheshire Chris
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Originally Posted by Cheshire Chris
It sounds to me as if you’re perhaps more in love with the idea of owning the “ultimate keyboard” than in actually playing the piano. A serious case of GAS?


Exactly. I want to find the best laugh

Well...
It's not only that. I don't want to have the feeling that the instrument is at fault.


Fair enough, but you said in a previous post, IIRC, that you’ve only ever previously owned entry-level keyboards. Surely you can strike a happy medium between those and an ultra-expensive hand-crafted instrument and get something where the instrument won’t be a limiting factor in your playing without spending the earth? Think of all the time you could be spending actually playing rather than waiting years while you save up for this stratospherically-priced keyboard! Unless you’re a concert pianist, a decent slab piano such as a P-515, MP11SE, etc, is not going to be the limiting factor in your playing; your skill as a pianist will be.



That's mostly true..
But it bothers me that the P515 has no hi res midi... You are probably right. But one point - everyone benefits of a really good piano.
Having that Hi-Res Midi is about expression. From a logical POV, I certainly should not get it.
BUT, I also will never buy a car.
Think about it. I don't get a car, I don't get a house, why should I not spend my cash in something I love? A car is not a must nowadays. A house also is not.
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 - 04/15/19 06:06 PM

Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
...Because higher midi res results in better pianoteq sound. http://www.flkeys.at/FLKFaqEng.html#4096

Are you basing your opinion on the manufacturer's statement or have you actually tested hi-res MIDI? Because I have controlled PianoTeq for nearly two years using a keyboard that outputs hi-res MIDI (Casio PX-560) and was unable to detect any differences using A/B testing. But the problem may be me...
Posted By: nicknameTaken

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 - 04/15/19 06:08 PM

Quote

My friend who is professional musician (jazz and classical) have contact with Lachnit. He was in Vienna to try that DP (I think it was MK22) and the action for him was too light almost like semi weight. They said to him that for 1000 euros more on default price they will put harder action. This was last year and I dont know if something has changed in the meantime.


I do believe you, because it makes sense. ( I thought they also changed the weightage at least, because I played Nords with the same action and it was too light)
The new MK23 has just a new circuitry. Well, I think in that case I'll continue on pursuing the P515.


Quote

Are you basing your opinion on the manufacturer's statement or have you actually tested hi-res MIDI? Because I have controlled PianoTeq for nearly two years using a keyboard that outputs hi-res MIDI (Casio PX-560) and was unable to detect any differences using A/B testing. But the problem may be me...


No, not at all. I thought what the manufacturer said was true...
If it is not, there won't be any need. If it does not make any difference.
Posted By: Cheshire Chris

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 - 04/15/19 06:36 PM

Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
That's mostly true..
But it bothers me that the P515 has no hi res midi... You are probably right. But one point - everyone benefits of a really good piano.
Having that Hi-Res Midi is about expression.


I honestly don’t think it’s humanly possible to control the force you exert on a key to better than 1 part in 127 (the range of standard MIDI velocities) and even if you could, you wouldn’t be able to hear the difference. To be honest, this sounds like a marketing ploy, not something that makes any difference in the real world.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 - 04/15/19 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by Cheshire Chris
I honestly don’t think it’s humanly possible to control the force you exert on a key to better than 1 part in 127 (the range of standard MIDI velocities) and even if you could, you wouldn’t be able to hear the difference.

Dr. John Mortensen has said similarly.
Posted By: Pedro Ruiz

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 - 04/15/19 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14
Originally Posted by Pedro Ruiz
For less than that price you can get a Kawai MP11SE, which has a better Kawai GrandFeel action (IMO only Hybrid actions from Kawai Novus NV10 and Yamahas AvantGrands are above that GrandFeel action and its update GrandFeel II), same portability, Kawai SK-EX samples....

Not much a fan of Fatar actions... and I have owned quite a few of them.

BEST REGARDS


Pedro, why did you retire from MLB? I was a huge fan of your famous ‘fast ball’.
Oh well, at least it’s good to know you play the piano, too. wink

Seems that my name and surname is more extended that I know of...
In my country Spain, there is a journalist also named Pedro Ruiz...
And this is the first time I heard of a baseball player named the same...

...take note, this are the first steps for world domination smile

BEST REGARDS
Posted By: nicknameTaken

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 - 04/15/19 07:06 PM

Thanks for all the answers. I really love the discussion. And have yet learned more again. I don't ever wanna stop filling my mind with information laugh
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 - 04/15/19 11:03 PM

I wish those videos were available with English translation. I couldn't understand what was said.

If anyone has a chance to try one of these I'd like to hear about it. (I don't expect to see one here in the States for quite a while.)
Posted By: nicknameTaken

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 - 04/16/19 07:59 AM

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I wish those videos were available with English translation. I couldn't understand what was said.

If anyone has a chance to try one of these I'd like to hear about it. (I don't expect to see one here in the States for quite a while.)


Well everything that was said is also in the FAQ.
By the way - I mailed them...
Quote

all the theorizing and all the guesswork have little sense from a certain level. Ultimately, the only thing that counts is your own playing experience.
If you are ever in Vienna, come and play. Either to the piano makers Burggasse or we can make an appointment.

Our patented light sensor technology enables a unique playing feeling on the market... and the playing characteristics of our handcrafted keyboard hardly have anything to do with a Werks TP40w with mechanical silicone contacts made of fatar cardboard.

Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 - 04/16/19 08:08 AM

Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
By the way - I mailed them...


Is this the original email, or did you translate it yourself (German --> English)?

Also, did you request permission from this individual to repost his/her reply on a public forum?

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: nicknameTaken

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 - 04/16/19 08:14 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
By the way - I mailed them...


Is this the original email, or did you translate it yourself (German --> English)?

Also, did you request permission from this individual to repost his/her reply on a public forum?

Kind regards,
James
x



Hello,

I used a translator.
I thought it was granted to post in public as there was no text in the mail who said something like it may contain trade secrets and vice versa.

If it's a problem, I won't do it anymore and you should delete my post.
I have reported the post to the moderator.

Best,
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 - 04/16/19 08:40 AM

Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
I used a translator.


My apologies, I somehow thought that were a German speaker, and had therefore contacted the Lachnit developers in your native language.

Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
I thought it was granted to post in public as there was no text in the mail who said something like it may contain trade secrets and vice versa.


Maybe so, but I believe it's courteous to the individual to double-check before posting.
For example:

"Thank you for your reply. Would it be okay to re-post your response on the PianoWorld forum?"
etc.

I obviously cannot speaker for this individual (Friedrich Lachnit?), however I would feel rather aggrieved if information I had written via a private message or email was reposted publicly without consent.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: nicknameTaken

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 - 04/16/19 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
I used a translator.


My apologies, I somehow thought that were a German speaker, and had therefore contacted the Lachnit developers in your native language.

Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
I thought it was granted to post in public as there was no text in the mail who said something like it may contain trade secrets and vice versa.


Maybe so, but I believe it's courteous to the individual to double-check before posting.
For example:

"Thank you for your reply. Would it be okay to re-post your response on the PianoWorld forum?"
etc.

I obviously cannot speaker for this individual (Friedrich Lachnit?), however I would feel rather aggrieved if information I had written via a private message or email was reposted publicly without consent.

Kind regards,
James
x


No. I am a native German speaker and contacted them in German.
Then for make it readable here and because of laziness, I did use deepl for the translation.
It is true however, that it might be an option to just make a vacation to Wien, and then as I happen to pass by, to test it.

Best Regards
© 2019 Piano World Piano & Digital Piano Forums