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Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action

Posted By: Kenny Cheng

Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 08:43 AM

https://www.nordkeyboards.com/products/nord-grand

88-note Kawai Hammer Action with advanced triple sensors

That's interesting!

Not sure which Kawai action they are using ...
Posted By: jamiecw

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by Kenny Cheng
https://www.nordkeyboards.com/products/nord-grand

88-note Kawai Hammer Action with advanced triple sensors

That's interesting!

Not sure which Kawai action they are using ...


This is very interesting...ever more interesting will be the price tag...Nords with Fatar Action cost an arm and a leg...I am guessing with the Kawai action (especially if using anything like GF compact or II even) buyers might need to throw a kidney in the deal too...
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 09:02 AM

Wow if not an April’s fool joke it’s quite something! Judging by no mention of wood it’s RH3, not GF or RM3. They mention it’s the first time they have triple sensors on hammer rather than on keys. No more Fatar complaints I guess smile
Posted By: Kenny Cheng

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 09:05 AM

In Nord’s web, it says “Kawai Responsive Hammer keybed with Ivory Touch”

It seems it will be RH3

Kind of disappointed....
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 09:07 AM

Interesting! Finally one of the brands who don't build their own action not using a Fatar action.

Originally Posted by Kenny Cheng
Not sure which Kawai action they are using ...

It says Kawai Responsive Hammer action, so it seems to be a version of the RH. My guess would be RHIII, like in the ES8 (which also has Ivory Touch).
Posted By: jamiecw

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 09:09 AM

120 Voice Polyphony....?? Is this 2005 still!?
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 09:19 AM

There’s note stealing. 120 is more than enough.
Posted By: Iaroslav Vasiliev

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 09:21 AM

I also think it will be RHIII like on ES8 and MP7SE.

The wooden case looks awesome.
Posted By: maurus

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 09:51 AM

Wow. This is what I've been saying and recommending for years now.

Kawai James may remember wink
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by maurus
Wow. This is what I've been saying and recommending for years now.

Kawai James may remember wink

I need to check when I first suggested that Nord should use Kawai keyboards, it was so long ago, let's compete! wink
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by maurus
Wow. This is what I've been saying and recommending for years now.

Kawai James may remember wink

I need to check when I first suggested that Nord should use Kawai keyboards, it was so long ago, let's compete! wink

And the winner gets royalties!
Posted By: maurus

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 10:33 AM

I won't claim priority here - it has been an obvious thought for many reasons smile
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by Kenny Cheng
In Nord’s web, it says “Kawai Responsive Hammer keybed with Ivory Touch”

It seems it will be RH3

Kind of disappointed....

Me too... this DP seems to have plenty of space inside the case to feature a wooden action derived from Kawai's GF-II/GF-C. The Kawai RH is definitely a step up from the Fatar action, but a wooden action would be a much better option imo. The wooden case and the controls look amazing...
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 11:00 AM

Well, take in mind it's the first time Kawai gives their actions to another brand. I am amazed they agreed, TBH. But they wouldn't give them their best action, would they?
Posted By: Iaroslav Vasiliev

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by Kenny Cheng
In Nord’s web, it says “Kawai Responsive Hammer keybed with Ivory Touch”

It seems it will be RH3

Kind of disappointed....

Me too... this DP seems to have plenty of space inside the case to feature a wooden action derived from Kawai's GF-II/GF-C. The Kawai RH is definitely a step up from the Fatar action, but a wooden action would be a much better option imo. The wooden case and the controls look amazing...

It may be that Kawai is not willing to supply their best keyboards to competitor, but it seems more probable to me that Nord is not willing to buy them. Nord seems to be traditionally concerned with electric pianos and additional instruments, and wooden keyboard is imo not a good idea for EPs.
Posted By: propianist

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 12:28 PM

What puzzles me is that the weight of this Nord Grand is only 20.9kg according to their spec webpage!!!

So how exactly have Clavia made this so much lighter in weight than most of Kawai's own wooden action stage pianos?
I mean, it looks to me like they based it on the VPC1 (maybe Kawai are now discontinuing VPC1 and about to release a VPC2 and so can sell the older VPC1 chassis off to Clavia? The VPC1 itself was a development from the MP10 case chassis) and that model VPC1 has RM3 action (3 sensor, but not the full Grand Feel keystick length) and weighs 29.5kg. It's their lightest. Most of the wooden action MP series are somewhere between 32kg and 35kg. And the old Kawai CA-X was 30kg - which looks almost the same physical design as Nord Grand does today!
So it's amazing to me that Clavia have managed to produce such a thing with it only weighing 20.9kg. My gut feeling is, either some corners have been cut somewhere in the Kawai action for this, or Clavia's red casework must be very minimalist lightweight design (but doesn't look like that to me) or perhaps that 20.9kg spec is a misprint.


Anyway - as with all Nord keyboards - shame it's red. Gloss black would be the better colour.
120 polyphony is pathetic, I agree.
Shame it has no pitch bend or mod wheels - all stage pianos need these.
Shame it has no professional balanced XLR outs or AES/EBU or S/PDIF outs - only amateur unbalanced jacks (pathetic again)
Nice that they've now upgraded 2GB for the pianos, rather than 1GB as they put on the Nord Piano 4, but still probably not enough for all the libraries you might want. Surely 8Gb or more would be possible these days?
Very interesting that Kawai are now supplying OEM keyboards to 3rd party manufacturers like Clavia - especially to play all their Steinway, Bosendorfer and Yamaha samples from! No Kawai pianos?!
Wonder if the plastic key brigade (Roland, Yamaha, Kurzweil) will be on the phone when they see this wanting to buy OEM wooden Kawai actions for theirs too...?!
Shame that Kawai haven't got a new model themselves, like MP12 with all the features professionals want to see.

Posted By: Doug M.

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by Kenny Cheng
https://www.nordkeyboards.com/products/nord-grand

88-note Kawai Hammer Action with advanced triple sensors

That's interesting!

Not sure which Kawai action they are using ...


Hi Kenny,

What is this essentially?
= Nord Piano 4 + New Action (RHIII) + 2 GB Piano library memory instead of 1GB + slanted user interface & flat roof.

Why release this?
I think this is Nords response to the CP88!
In other words: the NP4 is down on action to the CP88, not any more! They've given buyers a harder choice by upping the Piano library size to 2 GB and providing the Nord with an action many would think of as being slightly better than the Yamaha NW-GH action.

So, for all that difference in look (dimensions, weight, and slanted facing front-panel), the specs show only 2 functional differences to the NP4---albeit the insertion of the RHIII action is a shrewd move.

What do you guys think?

Also, although it looks more substantial (due to the shape), but it actually weights approx. only 2 Kg more than the NP4. Seems to me that this is still aimed at the live user?!

Another thing I quite like straight away: I used to own a PSR7000 keyboard with a slanted UI. This Nord has a flat top for your laptop---lovely jubbly---and a slanted control board which makes it slightly easier to work with!

Kind regards,

Doug
Posted By: Doug M.

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by Kenny Cheng
In Nord’s web, it says “Kawai Responsive Hammer keybed with Ivory Touch”

It seems it will be RH3

Kind of disappointed....

Me too... this DP seems to have plenty of space inside the case to feature a wooden action derived from Kawai's GF-II/GF-C. The Kawai RH is definitely a step up from the Fatar action, but a wooden action would be a much better option imo. The wooden case and the controls look amazing...

It may be that Kawai is not willing to supply their best keyboards to competitor, but it seems more probable to me that Nord is not willing to buy them. Nord seems to be traditionally concerned with electric pianos and additional instruments, and wooden keyboard is imo not a good idea for EPs.


Hi Iaroslav,

Yep, Kawai keep the cream for themselves; however, by providing one of the best actions after the Grand Feel and VPC actions, Kawai have essentially handed competitive advantage to Nord. So whilst Kawai aren't selling a Nord like instrument (not operating in that sub-market), they've managed to nobble one of the advantages that the Yamaha CP88 had over the NP4 lol...Shrewd for Kawai me thinks!

Kind regards,

Doug.
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by propianist
What puzzles me is that the weight of this Nord Grand is only 20.9kg according to their spec webpage!!!

So how exactly have Clavia made this so much lighter in weight than most of Kawai's own wooden action stage pianos?

They didn't. Because it's not a wooden action (Responsive Hammer).
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev

It may be that Kawai is not willing to supply their best keyboards to competitor, but it seems more probable to me that Nord is not willing to buy them.


Yes, I think this is likely the case. RH3 would be a direct upgrade to the Fatar actions in other Nords. A GF action would be creating a new category of product.

Also. Kawai doesn't make a wooden action slab much under 70lb, which is quite a limitation for a "stage piano" meant to be carried on gigs. I think Nord picked the action that best suited their needs, and it was RH3 for this product.
Posted By: jeffscot

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 01:41 PM


That’s interesting!
Wonder if the price is under $5k? wink
Posted By: Kenny Cheng

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 01:47 PM

Please keep in mind all Nord keyboards does not have internal speaker systems.

That’s why the weight is lighter (for live/stage performance purpose).

If you need speaker systems, you will need additional monitors.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by Doug M.
So whilst Kawai aren't selling a Nord like instrument (not operating in that sub-market)

Well, not exactly the vintage type of interface but the MP7SE is very similar to a Nord Piano and now Nord Grand, the same action. Only there are no upload-able sounds. Other than that it's the same weight and costs probably 5 times less smile Which is why I think Kawai decided to give that action to Nord, they are in a different price range. With the MP Kawai are in the budget range, while Nord is in the premium range. It was really a shame that they used cheap and (supposedly low-quality) Fatar actions, a long time cons.
Posted By: anotherscott

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by Kenny Cheng
It seems it will be RH3

Kind of disappointed....

Me too...

Nord sells stage pianos. 60 and 70 lb instruments are not for their market.

Originally Posted by propianist
120 polyphony is pathetic, I agree.
120 polyphony is for the piano engine alone. An additional layered sound will have its own polyphony and won't take away from piano. Also, Nord handles polyphony very well. Even the earlier generation, which topped out at 60 polyphony, did not really generate complaints in actual use.

['quote=propianist]to play all their Steinway, Bosendorfer and Yamaha samples from! No Kawai pianos?![/quote]
Yes, they have a Kawai sample set. The Silver Grand is this one: http://www.kawai-global.com/product/sk-7/

Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by Kenny Cheng
Please keep in mind all Nord keyboards does not have internal speaker systems.

That’s why the weight is lighter (for live/stage performance purpose).


I have to disagree with this. Neither the VPC-1 nor the MP11SE have built-in speakers, and they're both 65-70+lb. The stainless steel chassis and wooden keybed/keys account for the majority of the weight.

In fact, there are some businesses out there that chop up Casio and Yamaha lightweight keyboards for maximum portability and weight savings, and they've opted to KEEP the built-in speakers on account that the added weight is not significant and the benefit of retaining built-in speakers is significant.

Posted By: Pete14

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 02:11 PM

... but I thought the Nord “Grand” was meant to be a new category of instrument. First the deeper spinet-type enclosure and then the partnership with Kawai sort of point to a different direction from the usual. I must say they did keep it red.... right?

Still, arc7urus, this seems like the paradigm shift we’ve all been waiting for: from Fatar folded to Kawai folded, plastic keys (because this is Nord), spinet form (but this is not Nord), and finally, RED! Where can I sign up for this masterpiece?

Oh, I forgot; the specs only tell half the story, so in theory, this Grand could potentially outplay the Novus. Yes, the Novus uses a grand piano action with damper mechanism, but then again, specs only tell half the story!

I really don’t get this instrument nor the association with Kawai. If they’re not interested in the purist -mostly piano- crowd, then why this thing that points in that direction, yet then reverses to a synth-like instrument in a spinet form factor with Kawai plastic keys!

Is this thing a contradiction in terms, or am I simply getting old?

P.S.

I’ve not taken my medications, so this might’ve influenced my initial impression, but still, I’m mad as heck! laugh


Posted By: anotherscott

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14
I really don’t get this instrument nor the association with Kawai.

The biggest complaint about Nord Pianos here (even among those looking for portable stage pianos) has been "I wish they were available with a better action." So, there you go.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 02:19 PM

It's very simple. Nord want to position themselves as a premium brand yet they use some cheap Fatar actions. There's a contradiction. They need to escape from that image, hence the Nord Grand.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
It's very simple. Nord want to position themselves as a premium brand yet they use some cheap Fatar actions. There's a contradiction. They need to escape from that image, hence the Nord Grand.


That's quite a loaded statement. I'm not a big Fatar fan, but it's not like there are a lot of turnkey white-label piano actions out there for DP makers to use...I bet this Kawai deal was quite a long time in the works.
Posted By: Dave Ferris

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 02:29 PM

Nice ! Good to see them addressing their weak link. Still for live, the CP4 does everything I need it to do.

For home I have the P-515 in my sights because of the speakers. But I'd consider this if it had the MP11 or even the lesser VPC-1 action , even without the speakers. I'd have to get a custom black paint job on it though.

Still looking forward to playing one but I'll bet at least in the $3500 to $4000 range. Knowing Nord, it could be more.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 02:31 PM

My point exactly, Gombessa. Just how bad are these Fatar actions? It seems like many people like them. So this Kawai action, in my opinion, is not much different; considering the similar -folded- design.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by CyberGene
It's very simple. Nord want to position themselves as a premium brand yet they use some cheap Fatar actions. There's a contradiction. They need to escape from that image, hence the Nord Grand.


That's quite a loaded statement. I'm not a big Fatar fan, but it's not like there are a lot of turnkey white-label piano actions out there for DP makers to use...I bet this Kawai deal was quite a long time in the works.

Well, I didn't say Fatar are bad actions myself. But you can't deny Fatar has a rather bad reputation. Many people would say they are not as good as Yamaha/Kawai/Roland and many would also tell you they are not of high quality either. I'm not discussing whether that's a justified criticism or unfair prejudice. But you have to admit the most common criticism of Nord is their usage of Fatar actions. They want to improve on that. That's marketing.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14
My point exactly, Gombessa. Just how bad are these Fatar actions? It seems like many people like them. So this Kawai action, in my opinion, is not much different; considering the similar -folded- design.


For one, the Kawai action has velocity measuring on the hammer part, compared to the key in the Fatar design. At least that's what Nord claim in their description. It certainly makes a difference, or why would they bother mentioning it?
Posted By: maurus

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 02:44 PM

Gals and guys, I think you have to play this thing before making conclusions.

I don't need this instrument (now) because I already own basically the same functionality (plus an organ and a second manual wink ), but as anotherscott says, the action was really the weak point of the Nords for pianistic use. Just imagine the sheer variety of the Nord Piano Library, available with a great action satisfying more advanced needs, and equipped with a direct access interface...

The polyphony certainly won't be a limitation in practice.
Posted By: Iaroslav Vasiliev

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 02:54 PM

That slanted controls panel seems to me a drawback for the stage. Many people like to watch pianist's hands and that thing is likely to block the view.
Posted By: maurus

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 03:02 PM

Depends on how the piano is placed. You can't see the hands of a pianist playing on a grand from the front either.

And for the pianist these slanted controls are just great.
Posted By: R111

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by maurus
Just imagine the sheer variety of the Nord Piano Library, available with a great action satisfying more advanced needs, and equipped with a direct access interface...
.


I wonder how many maximum-sized voice sample sets one can fit on this. I know a pet peeve of many Nord owners has been having to unload a sample set so they could load a different sample set.
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 03:57 PM

Originally Posted by R111
Originally Posted by maurus
Just imagine the sheer variety of the Nord Piano Library, available with a great action satisfying more advanced needs, and equipped with a direct access interface...
.


I wonder how many maximum-sized voice sample sets one can fit on this. I know a pet peeve of many Nord owners has been having to unload a sample set so they could load a different sample set.

The Nord Grand has 2GB memory for the Nord Piano Library. Each grand piano that has a XL sample set takes 180-200 MB. The L sample set is 80-100MB. There are 11 pianos on Nord's library and not all of them have a XL sample set. So, you probably can load all of the grand pianos. If you skip a couple of grand pianos, there could be enough space left to fit most of the other instruments on the Piano Library since they use smaller sample sets.
Posted By: Doug M.

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
That slanted controls panel seems to me a drawback for the stage. Many people like to watch pianist's hands and that thing is likely to block the view.


I've always thought this to be the optimum position on stage for a pianist: partly so you can turn towards the audience for emphasis and partly so you can see what the band is doing.

[Linked Image]

Also, having played on a keyboard with a slanted control panel, I actually found it easier to use: you can see the dials without leaning forward, and dials at the back of the board are closer to you.

Hence why electone organs---which are button heavy and require more user interaction during performance than a stage piano usually does---use a slanted design:

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Doug M.

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Pete14
My point exactly, Gombessa. Just how bad are these Fatar actions? It seems like many people like them. So this Kawai action, in my opinion, is not much different; considering the similar -folded- design.


For one, the Kawai action has velocity measuring on the hammer part, compared to the key in the Fatar design. At least that's what Nord claim in their description. It certainly makes a difference, or why would they bother mentioning it?


Hi CyberGene,

I find the 'willingness' of Kawai in allowing Nord to use the RMIII interesting...Some have said that the MP7SE is a competitor to the Nord; however, to me there is enough different about them. That said, it's unusual for a manufacturer to give competitive advantage to another firm.

Makes me wonder if an RHIV is soon to be released on some new boards e.g., the ES9 and the MP8.

Kind regards,

Doug.
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 04:17 PM

Since we are talking about slanted designs... this is the beautiful and technologically impressive Nonlinear Labs C15 digital synth. The slanted panel is detachable and the two horizontal ribbons above the keyboard are touch sensitive controllers.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: anotherscott

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by Doug M.
Some have said that the MP7SE is a competitor to the Nord; however, to me there is enough different about them. That said, it's unusual for a manufacturer to give competitive advantage to another firm.

The Nord will probably sell for somewhere around double the price of the MP7SE. Kawai doesn't sell stage pianos in the Nord price range, so they will not directly compete. In fact, Kawai can now say, hey look, our moderately priced MP7SE has the same action Nord selected for a board that's twice the price, what a bargain!
Posted By: propianist

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by propianist
What puzzles me is that the weight of this Nord Grand is only 20.9kg according to their spec webpage!!!

So how exactly have Clavia made this so much lighter in weight than most of Kawai's own wooden action stage pianos?

They didn't. Because it's not a wooden action (Responsive Hammer).


Whoops sorry, my mistake!!!! For a brief moment I was excited thinking something interesting had come to market.
When I read the blurb, in my mind, I just automatically assumed it meant a proper Kawai wooden action - I thought that's what the whole fuss was about.
Also looking and judging by the physical size, shape and depth, so similar to Kawai CA-X or VPC1, it seemed like that size and shape was justified by the deep wooden action - otherwise what's the point of it being so deep?!
Frankly, if it's just a plastic action (RH3 like in the MP7) then I can't see anything to like here.
Posted By: Doug M.

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 04:30 PM

Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by Kenny Cheng
In Nord’s web, it says “Kawai Responsive Hammer keybed with Ivory Touch”

It seems it will be RH3

Kind of disappointed....

Me too... this DP seems to have plenty of space inside the case to feature a wooden action derived from Kawai's GF-II/GF-C. The Kawai RH is definitely a step up from the Fatar action, but a wooden action would be a much better option imo. The wooden case and the controls look amazing...


Hi Arc7urus,

Some people seem to think that the wooden key makes a big difference in control-ability; however, I disagree on objective grounds i.e., because the length of the key, the position of the pivot point, and the overall mechanics of the action is what determines control-ability.

Is it not the case that the feel of the more expensive digital pianos with wooden keys is less to do with the properties of the key material and more to do with the mechanics of the action? Also, some difference in expressive control might depend upon how the electronics and hardware process the signal e.g, how sensitive the board is (e.g., the difference in control between the RD700NX and the RD800)

For a practical example: the PHA50 is isn't a wooden action (despite being dressed in a sliver of wood), but the control the PHA50 gives (IMO) is comparable to any of it's competitors except maybe the Grand Feel action (which has the longer key length).

Wood is an aesthetic thing yes, but don't the physics of the action provide feel and control?

The density of the wood (if greater than the plastic key) would give greater momentum once the key is being depressed (due to having a higher mass - momentum = mass x velocity). However, a solid wood key (assuming it is heavier than an equivalently long plastic key) would require more force applied by the muscles of the forearm to overcome inertia (to depress the key), meaning they key would be slightly harder to control. In the same sense, would you not rather play with a carbon fibre tennis racket than a wooden one, so long as the shaft length of the carbon fibre racket is comparable?

Kind regards,

Doug
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by Doug M.
Some have said that the MP7SE is a competitor to the Nord; however, to me there is enough different about them. That said, it's unusual for a manufacturer to give competitive advantage to another firm.

The Nord will probably sell for somewhere around double the price of the MP7SE. Kawai doesn't sell stage pianos in the Nord price range, so they will not directly compete. In fact, Kawai can now say, hey look, our moderately priced MP7SE has the same action Nord selected for a board that's twice the price, what a bargain!

The MP7 is roughly on the same league as stage pianos like the RD2000, CP88 and similar. But the Nords are often used for their on-board sounds and effects, not as controllers. So, there is no direct competition between these stage pianos and their price reflects that. At the end of the day, this will be a win-win situation: Nord can boast they are using a superior Kawai "grand-like" action, and Kawai can boast their (mid-range plastic) RH action is now much better than the competition since it is being being used on a top-tier stage piano...
Posted By: Doug M.

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 04:41 PM

Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by Doug M.
Some have said that the MP7SE is a competitor to the Nord; however, to me there is enough different about them. That said, it's unusual for a manufacturer to give competitive advantage to another firm.

The Nord will probably sell for somewhere around double the price of the MP7SE. Kawai doesn't sell stage pianos in the Nord price range, so they will not directly compete. In fact, Kawai can now say, hey look, our moderately priced MP7SE has the same action Nord selected for a board that's twice the price, what a bargain!

The MP7 is roughly on the same league as stage pianos like the RD2000, CP88 and similar. But the Nords are often used for their on-board sounds and effects, not as controllers. So, there is no direct competition between these stage pianos and their price reflects that. At the end of the day, this will be a win-win situation: Nord can boast they are using a superior Kawai "grand-like" action, and Kawai can boast their (mid-range plastic) RH action is now much better than the competition since it is being being used on a top-tier stage piano...


I'm interested, what sound effects does the Nord Piano 4 have that the RD2000 or MP7 don't?
Posted By: pold

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by Doug M.

For a practical example: the PHA50 is isn't a wooden action (despite being dressed in a sliver of wood), but the control the PHA50 gives (IMO) is comparable to any of it's competitors except maybe the Grand Feel action (which has the longer key length).

Wood is an aesthetic thing yes, but don't the physics of the action provide feel and control?



Doug


I agree that wood is less important than the pivot length. What do you think of the new Roland hybrid grand action in the LX 708? Maybe it's as good as the Kawai Grand Feel action, now that it's much longer:
comparison image
Posted By: Doug M.

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 06:36 PM

Originally Posted by pold
Originally Posted by Doug M.

For a practical example: the PHA50 is isn't a wooden action (despite being dressed in a sliver of wood), but the control the PHA50 gives (IMO) is comparable to any of it's competitors except maybe the Grand Feel action (which has the longer key length).

Wood is an aesthetic thing yes, but don't the physics of the action provide feel and control?



Doug


I agree that wood is less important than the pivot length. What do you think of the new Roland hybrid grand action in the LX 708? Maybe it's as good as the Kawai Grand Feel action, now that it's much longer:
comparison image


Hi Pold,

I'm not going to comment upon the Roland hybrid grand action till I've had a go. I hope it feels better than the PHA50, but that's about as far as I'm prepared to wish lol.

Kind regards,

Doug.
Posted By: pold

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by Doug M.
Originally Posted by pold
Originally Posted by Doug M.

For a practical example: the PHA50 is isn't a wooden action (despite being dressed in a sliver of wood), but the control the PHA50 gives (IMO) is comparable to any of it's competitors except maybe the Grand Feel action (which has the longer key length).

Wood is an aesthetic thing yes, but don't the physics of the action provide feel and control?



Doug


I agree that wood is less important than the pivot length. What do you think of the new Roland hybrid grand action in the LX 708? Maybe it's as good as the Kawai Grand Feel action, now that it's much longer:
comparison image


Hi Pold,

I'm not going to comment upon the Roland hybrid grand action till I've had a go. I hope it feels better than the PHA50, but that's about as far as I'm prepared to wish lol.

Kind regards,

Doug.


thanx, cheers
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 11:42 PM

Originally Posted by Doug M.
Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by Doug M.
Some have said that the MP7SE is a competitor to the Nord; however, to me there is enough different about them. That said, it's unusual for a manufacturer to give competitive advantage to another firm.

The Nord will probably sell for somewhere around double the price of the MP7SE. Kawai doesn't sell stage pianos in the Nord price range, so they will not directly compete. In fact, Kawai can now say, hey look, our moderately priced MP7SE has the same action Nord selected for a board that's twice the price, what a bargain!

The MP7 is roughly on the same league as stage pianos like the RD2000, CP88 and similar. But the Nords are often used for their on-board sounds and effects, not as controllers. So, there is no direct competition between these stage pianos and their price reflects that. At the end of the day, this will be a win-win situation: Nord can boast they are using a superior Kawai "grand-like" action, and Kawai can boast their (mid-range plastic) RH action is now much better than the competition since it is being being used on a top-tier stage piano...


I'm interested, what sound effects does the Nord Piano 4 have that the RD2000 or MP7 don't?

You should be comparing the Nord Stage with the RD and MP, not the Nord Piano. Anyway, it is not about about the number of effects but how they can be configured, combined and are actually implemented. If all DSPs were implemented the same in different makes and models it would be much easier to pick a stage piano wink
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/02/19 11:51 PM

Originally Posted by pold
Originally Posted by Doug M.

For a practical example: the PHA50 is isn't a wooden action (despite being dressed in a sliver of wood), but the control the PHA50 gives (IMO) is comparable to any of it's competitors except maybe the Grand Feel action (which has the longer key length).

Wood is an aesthetic thing yes, but don't the physics of the action provide feel and control?

Doug


I agree that wood is less important than the pivot length. What do you think of the new Roland hybrid grand action in the LX 708? Maybe it's as good as the Kawai Grand Feel action, now that it's much longer:
comparison image

In terms of pivot point it could indeed match or exceed the GF. But the PHA-50 can already be easily played close to the fallboard. I would actually be more interested in checking improvements to its static and dynamic touch-weights (which are quite different from the GF) and its noise level, since the PHA-50 is rather noisy when compared to the GF.
Posted By: FlexHank

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/03/19 02:39 AM

You can pre-order it in Europe for 3100 euro, 5 weeks waiting time. For 3100 euro you can get a lot elsewhere in this DP world...
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/03/19 03:11 AM

Are you saying the Nord........Grand is overpriced?
Posted By: Iaroslav Vasiliev

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/03/19 05:48 AM

Originally Posted by arc7urus
In terms of pivot point it could indeed match or exceed the GF. But the PHA-50 can already be easily played close to the fallboard. I would actually be more interested in checking improvements to its static and dynamic touch-weights (which are quite different from the GF)

You mean you would increase static and dynamic touch-weights of PHA-50?
Posted By: JoeT

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/03/19 06:17 AM

Originally Posted by Pete14
Are you saying the Nord........Grand is overpriced?

Not him, but it wouldn't be my first choice either, when I had to spare three grand.
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/03/19 09:54 AM

Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
Originally Posted by arc7urus
In terms of pivot point it could indeed match or exceed the GF. But the PHA-50 can already be easily played close to the fallboard. I would actually be more interested in checking improvements to its static and dynamic touch-weights (which are quite different from the GF)

You mean you would increase static and dynamic touch-weights of PHA-50?

Not sure if it would require increasing the weight. It would be mainly changing how the weight is distributed during the movement of the key so that the dynamic weight does not feel so linear. But I would definitely increase the static weight of the GF-II...
Posted By: MarioPf

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/03/19 10:41 AM

Nord has tweaked the Fatar action, so it´s not obvious that this is the same action that we find in the ES8/MP 7 SE. I'm not saying that Nord has also tweaked the Kawai action but Kawai could have done this under Nord guidelines. This is only a guess but, if it's true, it would be very interesting.

For the price, 3100 euros is a "Nord price". If you like vey much Nord sounds, as I do, this is not too much, although I could not buy one now. When Nord announced their monitor speakers I thought buying a pair of them with a Nord Piano 4, instead of buying a Kawai CA-78 or a Roland LX-706, but immediatly I give up this ideia when I remember the Fatar action. But now, this Nord Grand with Kawai action is my top list wish. I would sell my other kidney if it had a sheet music stand.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/03/19 10:49 AM

Nord didn't tweak the Fatar action. They only calibrate it so that it has even response. Apparently Fatar actions aren't very well calibrated from the factory. (which is why Fatar had/have a bad image created in the past with their own controllers with many complaints about uneven response across the keys, etc.). I doubt Kawai actions need calibration or any modifications. And I doubt Kawai would allow Nord to modify their design while the actions are Kawai branded. Nord are not an action manufacturer and doesn't have a lot of know-how to create action modifications. As a matter of fact they have a proven record of messing up action assembly (see for example Nord Piano 3 where they mounted the action in a way that cause clanking noises and required installation of additional damping materials underneath the keys, etc. And which is why they released Nord Piano 4 with almost no significant upgrades mentioned.)
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/03/19 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Pete14
Are you saying the Nord........Grand is overpriced?

Not him, but it wouldn't be my first choice either, when I had to spare three grand.


Let me put it this way, the P-515 paired to Pianoteq will crush the Nord thing any day of the week, and it costs less!
No, I don’t need to play the Nord to know this. And I couldn’t care less if the sensors are placed on the hammers or on the flats/sharps, this thing ain’t worth that kind of money (unless you’re into Gucci-type products; were bang-for-the-buck is not the dominating philosophy).

Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/03/19 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by MarioPf
I would sell my other kidney if it had a sheet music stand.


[Linked Image]

Compatible with the Nord Grand.

Cheers,
James
x

ps. Hello thread, by the way. wink
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/03/19 11:47 AM

Wait..... so the music stand is not included?
I think I’ve blown a fuse. I’m going to need some therapy for this one. cry
Posted By: maurus

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/03/19 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
ps. Hello thread, by the way. wink

Hello James, welcome to the thread smile

Have you been giving recommendations to Kawai and Clavia lately? wink
Posted By: RichieBill

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/03/19 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14
Wait..... so the music stand is not included?

None of nord keyboards are including the music stand. You have to buy it separately, unfortunately.

BTW - this is first nord gear which has damped keyboard, using material tape (felt?).
Posted By: Doug M.

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/03/19 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by arc7urus
Since we are talking about slanted designs... this is the beautiful and technologically impressive Nonlinear Labs C15 digital synth. The slanted panel is detachable and the two horizontal ribbons above the keyboard are touch sensitive controllers.

[Linked Image]


Hi Arc7urus,

That looks awesome: good job I don't have €4000 to place my pre-order...

Kind regards,

Doug
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/03/19 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by RichieBill
Originally Posted by Pete14
Wait..... so the music stand is not included?

None of nord keyboards are including the music stand. You have to buy it separately, unfortunately.

BTW - this is first nord gear which has damped keyboard, using material tape (felt?).


RichieBill, I think I’m gonna have to pass on the Nord. With that kind of money, I’d rather get me a Gucci bag. Did you know that they actually include the straps along with the bag?
And these are not just any straps: these straps are detachable; which creates multifunctionality, doubling as a shoulder bag, while the top opening frame features a hinged lock on each side for a secure closure.

So no, this is not just an overpriced bag, it’s special!
Posted By: anotherscott

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/03/19 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14
Let me put it this way, the P-515 paired to Pianoteq will crush the Nord thing any day of the week, and it costs less!
No, I don’t need to play the Nord to know this.

But not everyone would feel the way you do. There are people who prefer Nord's piano sounds to Pianoteq. There are people who prefer Kawai RHIII to Yamaha's actions.

Plus there are people who prefer to not use a computer, whether for gig convenience, or aesthetic/ergonomic reasons, or the nuisance of moving things around and open and close apps when you want to play piano (unless you're going to dedicate a computer to the piano, in which case the rig probably no longer costs less).
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/03/19 03:36 PM

Jesus, did I write that?
The meds are starting to kick in. I can see clearly now!
But seriously, I’m just messing around with the Nord crowd. I tend to get upset when nothing major is revealed at these events (Musik/Namm), plus to make things worse, James had winked at us and said,.... ‘ask me next week..’ I took this to be a hint for something big to come........and then nothing.
So blame it on James! laugh
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/03/19 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14
Jesus, did I write that?
The meds are starting to kick in. I can see clearly now!
But seriously, I’m just messing around with the Nord crowd. I tend to get upset when nothing major is revealed at these events (Musik/Namm), plus to make things worse, James had winked at us and said,.... ‘ask me next week..’ I took this to be a hint for something big to come........and then nothing.
So blame it on James! laugh

Yeah, I'm shocked myself that the only thing that appears to have been announced at Musikmesse was this Nord. None of Kawai, Yamaha, Roland, or Casio announced anything. Is this saying something implicitly about these large musical instrument manufacturers' views of the European market vs the American market?
Posted By: OneWatt

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/03/19 04:30 PM

This seems like a brilliant move, for both Kawai and Nord.

For Nord, they get to upgrade their grand keybed lineup and preserve a hold on those consumers that currently prefer the Nord look/feel/sounds and operating system.

For Kawai, they expand their revenue stream for existing well-established parts while getting the marketing bump that results from Nord explicitly pushing the Kawai brand name as top quality keybed grand action... it's the ultimate affirmation for Kawai's engineering excellence by Nord - which is already highly regarded for quality product engineering.

And of course for consumers, they get more choices.

Win-win-win for all involved. - OneWatt
Posted By: Dave Ferris

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/03/19 05:21 PM

I've owned two Nord pianos in the past and granted, I haven't used one in 5 years but I still have a good idea what the "Nord pianos" sound like - both on a gig and at home, through phones or speakers.

When this was announced yesterday I got excited like everyone else ...well maybe not here on PW but elsewhere. But knowing how I feel about the sound of those pianos and having them long term, I know this wouldn't be a DP for me. For home or a gig.

Again, the only DP in my sights, and for home , right now is the P-515. I can't see replacing the CP4 for gigs unless I play the CP88 in a more quiet environment then what I heard it at NAMM, and I'm blown away. But the more I hear even the best piano demos of the CP88, the more it reinforces my original impression of the pianos sounding synthetic compared to the CP4....and the P-515 too.

Without playing the Nord Grand, I'd make a guess and say I'd still prefer even the CP88 to it.

But I do think for hard core Nord fans, this is a great announcement and merger.
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/03/19 09:38 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Yeah, I'm shocked myself that the only thing that appears to have been announced at Musikmesse was this Nord. None of Kawai, Yamaha, Roland, or Casio announced anything. Is this saying something implicitly about these large musical instrument manufacturers' views of the European market vs the American market?

Not unexpected since the "big" manufacturers are focussing on the growing Asian markets. The American and European are about high profit margin sales through the higher-end instruments and most brands have refreshed their lineup recently.

Note that Casio, Roland and Korg are not even in the Musikmesse's exhibitors list. Only Kawai Europe and Yamaha Europe are there, along with brands like Clavia (Nord) and "niche" synth manufacturers. The number of Chinese manufacturers of all types of instruments on the exhibitor list is impressive...
Posted By: PianoManChuck

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/03/19 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by Pete14
Let me put it this way, the P-515 paired to Pianoteq will crush the Nord thing any day of the week, and it costs less!
No, I don’t need to play the Nord to know this.

But not everyone would feel the way you do. There are people who prefer Nord's piano sounds to Pianoteq. There are people who prefer Kawai RHIII to Yamaha's actions.

Plus there are people who prefer to not use a computer, whether for gig convenience, or aesthetic/ergonomic reasons, or the nuisance of moving things around and open and close apps when you want to play piano (unless you're going to dedicate a computer to the piano, in which case the rig probably no longer costs less).

You just described me to a tee!
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/03/19 11:49 PM

Originally Posted by maurus
Have you been giving recommendations to Kawai and Clavia lately? wink


I knew that Kawai would supply keyboard actions for a future Clavia instrument, but didn't have any direct involvement in the negotiations, I'm afraid.

Originally Posted by arc7urus
Note that Casio, Roland and Korg are not even in the Musikmesse's exhibitors list. Only Kawai Europe and Yamaha Europe are there, along with brands like Clavia (Nord) and "niche" synth manufacturers.


Moreover, the Kawai booth (and I believe the Yamaha booth also) is a "Business to Business" booth, and only accessible to distributors and dealers - not the general public. I don't Clavia (Nord) are exhibiting at the show (the company does not appear to be listed on the Musikmesse website). As I mentioned last week, Musikmesse is very different this year.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/03/19 11:55 PM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
I knew that Kawai would supply keyboard actions for a future Clavia instrument

And you didn’t tell us beforehand?! I thought we were all your friends... frown
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/04/19 12:00 AM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Kawai James
I knew that Kawai would supply keyboard actions for a future Clavia instrument

And you didn’t tell us beforehand?! I thought we were all your friends... frown


Yeah, any proprietary information would have completely stayed within this thread! For sure.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/04/19 01:09 AM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
I thought we were all your friends... frown


With friends like these... wink
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/04/19 01:18 AM

We love you, James. 2hearts
Posted By: PianoManChuck

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/04/19 01:30 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James

I knew that Kawai would supply keyboard actions for a future Clavia instrument, but didn't have any direct involvement in the negotiations, I'm afraid.

Somehow I knew that you knew all along!
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/04/19 10:25 PM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by arc7urus
Note that Casio, Roland and Korg are not even in the Musikmesse's exhibitors list. Only Kawai Europe and Yamaha Europe are there, along with brands like Clavia (Nord) and "niche" synth manufacturers.

Moreover, the Kawai booth (and I believe the Yamaha booth also) is a "Business to Business" booth, and only accessible to distributors and dealers - not the general public. I don't Clavia (Nord) are exhibiting at the show (the company does not appear to be listed on the Musikmesse website). As I mentioned last week, Musikmesse is very different this year.

Well, I happened to be in the area today and managed to visit the Musikmesse this afternoon smile The pianos and keyboard section was not what I was expecting. Kawai Europe had a booth for the dealers and an area open to the public. Yamaha only had an area for the dealers on another floor.

Kawai was displaying a K300-Aures, K500-Aures, CA98, CA78 and an NV10 along with three acoustic grands (two SKs and one GX). But someone at Kawai had the brilliant idea to jam the action of these grands (there was a wood contraption beneath the strings blocking the keysticks from moving). So, all the acoustic pianos and other instruments on the floor could be played except the three Kawai grands. I guess that the team that has developed the Kawai touchscreen GUI decided to introduce the same level of usability on the Kawai grands smile

I would say that 2/3 of the instruments on display were acoustics, including a Petrof concert grand. Apart from Petrof, which I think is still partially built in Europe, the acoustics were made in China but featured some fancy (or ridiculous) germanized or anglicized brand names. The digitals were mostly from Chinese brands unknown to me. Given their quality, I fail to understand why they were even on the show. Kurzweil was one few known brands and was there presenting their new PC4 workstation (anyway, Kurzweil is now also a Chinese company). The booths on this area that were not from Chinese brands were a few builders of organs and historic instruments, piano rebuilders and installers of aftermarket silent systems (good thing is that there were a couple of Yamaha and Steinway pianos on these booths ready to be played).

I also tried a Gvido music score reader. Impressive for score reading due to e-ink display but way too slow for annotations. And one can buy two big iPad Pros for the same price...

So, the positive outcome of visiting the piano & keyboard area was to be able compare (literally) side-by-side the NV10, CAs, Aures and a number of acoustic pianos. But, I left that part of the exhibition with the feeling that the acoustic and digital piano market is being flooded by mass produced, low quality instruments. On the other areas of the exhibition (drums, guitars, brass, woodwind, strings...) most exhibitors were displaying high-quality or concert-grade instruments and had a much more lively environment during my visit.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/04/19 10:55 PM

Originally Posted by arc7urus
I left that part of the exhibition with the feeling that the acoustic and digital piano market is being flooded by mass produced, low quality instruments.


That's a real shame. Did you get the impression that those who were established and had the most to lose had the least to gain from showing up? Or was it just the case that the event was flooded by low-cost consumer offerings and everyone else was drowned out?
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/05/19 01:27 AM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by arc7urus
I left that part of the exhibition with the feeling that the acoustic and digital piano market is being flooded by mass produced, low quality instruments.


That's a real shame. Did you get the impression that those who were established and had the most to lose had the least to gain from showing up? Or was it just the case that the event was flooded by low-cost consumer offerings and everyone else was drowned out?

The Musikmesse is a small/medium size event compared to other events that take place in the same location. So, if someone decided not to participate it was not because exhibition space was lacking. I do not know if established acoustic piano brands were regular participants in the past, but, due to the lack of such exhibitors, most instruments on display were mainly on the lower end of the spectrum. The scenario in the keyboard/digital pianos section was most depressing. There were plenty of exhibitors, but the majority were low quality products from dubious brands (like this one or this - these two had dozens of products on display). Above all, I don't have an explanation why the "big" keyboard/DP brands were not represented. I understand that the acoustic piano market, especially its upper tier, works in a different way. But, I was expecting to have plenty of mid- and high-range digital pianos and keyboards on display. As a result of this decision, the piano and keyboard area was in stark contrast to the rest of the event, where fine instruments were being showcased. There was also no lack of representation in the music book section, with all the big music editors there, along notation software and electronic music reading companies. So, if I had skipped entirely the keyboard area, I would have said that the event targets serious amateurs and concert/band players. I hope that next year they at least move the historic piano builders away from the shabby keyboard section.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/05/19 01:45 AM

Hello arc7urus, thank you for sharing your recent visit.

Originally Posted by arc7urus
Kawai Europe had a booth for the dealers and an area open to the public. Yamaha only had an area for the dealers on another floor.


I was not expecting any Kawai area to be open to the public. Presumably this was outside of Kawai's dealer booth?

Originally Posted by arc7urus
was displaying a K300-Aures, K500-Aures, CA98, CA78 and an NV10...


With headphones connected?

Originally Posted by arc7urus
...along with three acoustic grands (two SKs and one GX). But someone at Kawai had the brilliant idea to jam the action of these grands (there was a wood contraption beneath the strings blocking the keysticks from moving).


I will have to double-check the reason, however I believe this might be because the business area is required to be quiet.

Kind regards
James
x
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/05/19 03:04 AM

Originally Posted by arc7urus
I also tried a Gvido music score reader. Impressive for score reading due to e-ink display but way too slow for annotations.

I was planning on buying a GVIDO myself after I upgrade my piano. Can you elaborate on your comment about it being way too slow for annotations? What were you trying to do and what was it doing, or not doing, in response?
Posted By: AB99

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/05/19 03:43 AM

Just had a gig with the Kawai ES8 and I have to say that it sounded fantastic and the action was fantastic. Stick that action in a Nord and it makes me want to have a Nord as well! Congrats Nord - this was your weak point - Fatar - forget Fatar!
Posted By: JoeT

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/05/19 09:13 AM

Originally Posted by arc7urus
I would say that 2/3 of the instruments on display were acoustics, including a Petrof concert grand. Apart from Petrof, which I think is still partially built in Europe, the acoustics were made in China but featured some fancy (or ridiculous) germanized or anglicized brand names. The digitals were mostly from Chinese brands unknown to me. Given their quality, I fail to understand why they were even on the show.

Toy manufacturers pay to exhibit, so they are allowed on the Messe. Most piano makers of the last centuries do not exist anymore, so they cannot go there. Conclusion: Piano is dead, toy keyboard replaced it, guitar is still doing well.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/05/19 09:21 AM

Originally Posted by JoeT
Toy manufacturers pay to exhibit, so they are allowed on the Messe...


Joe, are you suggesting that "non-toy manufacturers" (whatever that means...) do not pay a fee to exhibit at Musikmesse?

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/05/19 09:21 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Hello arc7urus, thank you for sharing your recent visit.

Originally Posted by arc7urus
Kawai Europe had a booth for the dealers and an area open to the public. Yamaha only had an area for the dealers on another floor.

I was not expecting any Kawai area to be open to the public. Presumably this was outside of Kawai's dealer booth?

Kawai had a booth with walls around it. The dealer's area was inside the booth. The public area was around the booth. SKs acoustics were along one of the walls, the hybrid/DPs along another wall. The entrance to the dealer's area was between the CAs and the Aures.

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by arc7urus
was displaying a K300-Aures, K500-Aures, CA98, CA78 and an NV10...

With headphones connected?

Well, I tried to play the Aures and the NV10 without headphones but it was impossible since the whole area was extremely loud. I could not hear half of what I tried to play on a concert grand that was on display smile

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by arc7urus
...along with three acoustic grands (two SKs and one GX). But someone at Kawai had the brilliant idea to jam the action of these grands (there was a wood contraption beneath the strings blocking the keysticks from moving).

I will have to double-check the reason, however I believe this might be because the business area is required to be quiet.

Noise was probably not the reason smile Kawai's booth, along with the business area, was right in the middle of exhibition area. You had a few guys jamming with drums and other instruments a few meters away and dozens of people banging on the pianos. Yamaha and a few other brands were on the 4th floor, in the seminar and lounge area. I attended a seminar there and that area was quiet, but there were no instruments on display on that area.

Anyway, I was happy that Kawai was on the show! At least, a few visitors could test how a proper digital piano should feel - I say feel, because you could not hear anything wink
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/05/19 09:27 AM

arc7urus, thanks for the additional info!

In previous years, Kawai has had a public booth in one of the main halls (which can get rather noisy), and a dealer booth in one of the business halls (which is usually very quite by comparison) - as I say, Musikmesse is very different this year.

Actually, I thought the exhibition was for business visitors only (not members of the general public) - may I ask how you were able to attend?

I'll try to find out why the Kawai grand pianos were unable to be played.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: RichieBill

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/05/19 11:06 AM

Something a little bit more about keyboard action from another forum:

Kawai America HQ in California said: "The Kawai key action used in the Nord Grand is a plastic hammer key action developed specifically for Nord designated RH-N."

I presume that RH-N will be a RHIII with more plastic mechanism parts inside the keyboard, what in result will give lighter weight this instrument (important target of Nord) and a little bit a lighter keyboard action than RHIII but a little bit heavier and more controllable than Fatar.
Posted By: JoeT

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/05/19 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James

Actually, I thought the exhibition was for business visitors only (not members of the general public) - may I ask how you were able to attend?

Musikmesse 2019 was open to the general public the whole time in my impression. But I wasn't there.
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/05/19 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
arc7urus, thanks for the additional info!
In previous years, Kawai has had a public booth in one of the main halls (which can get rather noisy), and a dealer booth in one of the business halls (which is usually very quite by comparison) - as I say, Musikmesse is very different this year.

Yes, that setup would make more sense. Btw, can you elaborate on those differences? Do you have any idea why so few known brands were exhibiting at the pianos & keyboards section?

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Actually, I thought the exhibition was for business visitors only (not members of the general public) - may I ask how you were able to attend?

From what I understood, only the "dealer booths" were not accessible to the general public. I visited with a friend who is a professional player and got tickets from the orchestra he works with. Anyway, I did not notice any restrictions. I bought a couple of music books and was asked by the seller if I was a business or private visitor. The people attending concerts and shows also had full access to the exhibition areas. The website also says that in 2018 they 72% trade visitors and 28% private visitors.
Quote
I'll try to find out why the Kawai grand pianos were unable to be played.

Well, to be honest, an exhibition hall is not the place to assess how a piano sounds, regardless of their quality and craftsmanship. But other exhibitors in the show (not in the piano area) had glass panes around their testing areas that managed to reduce the noise quite well. Imo, it would be much better to have GL/GX pianos that the visitors could freely play than locked up SKs. And right in front of Kawai's stand, Petrof had concert grands pianos that could be played...
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/05/19 12:57 PM

arc7urus, what is the GVIDO annotation issue you mentioned above?
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/05/19 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
arc7urus, what is the GVIDO annotation issue you mentioned above?

https://www.gvidomusic.com/

The GVIDO It is a dual screen, A4-sized, e-ink reader, featuring annotation and organization software to work with music scores. It is impressive in terms of readability as any e-ink reader such as the Kindle. The discount price at the Messe was 1700 EUR smile

The annotations are very slow and jerky as expected from such a display. After you write something there is no immediate feedback. It is similar as making annotations on a Kindle. For the price, I expected they had some better technology for this, but it reacts as any other e-ink screen. But for reading it is amazing. You can see an example of how annotations work here (starting around 5m45s): https://youtu.be/4dfL9Gz41S0?t=342
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/05/19 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
arc7urus, what is the GVIDO annotation issue you mentioned above?

https://www.gvidomusic.com/

The GVIDO It is a dual screen, A4-sized, e-ink reader, featuring annotation and organization software to work with music scores. It is impressive in terms of readability as any e-ink reader such as the Kindle. The discount price at the Messe was 1700 EUR smile

The annotations are very slow and jerky as expected from such a display. After you write something there is no immediate feedback. It is similar as making annotations on a Kindle. For the price, I expected they had some better technology for this, but it reacts as any other e-ink screen. But for reading it is amazing. You can see an example of how annotations work here (starting around 5m45s): https://youtu.be/4dfL9Gz41S0?t=342

So say you are compare with a pair of iPad Pros (although I don't know if Forscore even supports a pair of linked iPad Pros in left-page-right-page format!), would you say a pair of iPad Pros running Forscore would be more usable than a GVIDO?
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/05/19 01:31 PM

Indeed, that annotation speed doesn't seem very good. Would be very awkward to make annotations with, I think...

But I have another question:

Why have two pages, i.e. two screens?

The product could be much cheaper with only a single screen, which also would have the advantage that you could have it centered in front of you (now you have two pages that are both off center, the prime real estate right in front of you is used for margins and bevels, and the information you are looking for is offset to the sides).
I understand why double pages make sense with a paper book, but I don't understand it with a tablet type device. Especially not since it increases the price considerably.

TBH, it seems like an anachronism that is carried over from paper score books, without reflection of if it even still makes sense with the new technology.
Or maybe it is a deliberate skeuomorph design to attract people who are on the fence about using a tablet? Similar to how the first iOS versions had controls that mimicked real life buttons, sliders, dials, etc. to win over users who, at that time, were not yet used to touch screen UIs. An approach that was then dropped starting with iOS 7, when touch UIs had become commonplace and those skeuomorphs were no longer needed...
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/05/19 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by JoBert
But I have another question:

Why have two pages, i.e. two screens?

I like being able to look at the next measure while still playing the last measures on the previous page. Allows me to get ready for those next measures without having to remember either the last measures of the previous page or the first measures of the next page. Not that this is a big problem for me though, but it's just a nice-to-have thing.
Posted By: OneWatt

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/05/19 01:51 PM

Seems like some off-topic wanderings about e-readers might make this new topic harder to find in the future. There are lots of informative posts available on readers for music scores you might want to check out, e.g...

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/2801399

... and others.
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/05/19 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by JoBert
But I have another question:

Why have two pages, i.e. two screens?

I like being able to look at the next measure while still playing the last measures on the previous page. Allows me to get ready for those next measures without having to remember either the last measures of the previous page or the first measures of the next page. Not that this is a big problem for me though, but it's just a nice-to-have thing.

I have the same preference, actually.
But do you know about the half page turn feature in Forscore, Mobilesheets, etc.? That allows for the same thing, but with a single screen.
When you tap the page turn pedal, only the top half of the page is turned, so the lower half remains on the previous page. So you can play to the end of the page and then just move your eyes to the top where the beginning of the next page is already shown. Then a bit later you tap the pedal again to turn the lower half of the page too. The advantage is, as you say, that you don't have to memorize the measures around the page turn, as they are always on screen at the same time. And you don't have to tap the pedal exactly at the end of the page (when it may be inconvenient if you are busy playing some difficult). You can tap the pedal at any convenient moment while on the second half of the page (for example during a rest) and then again during a convenient moment on the first half of the next page.
Posted By: MarioPf

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/05/19 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by JoBert

Why have two pages, i.e. two screens?

The product could be much cheaper with only a single screen, which also would have the advantage that you could have it centered in front of you (now you have two pages that are both off center, the prime real estate right in front of you is used for margins and bevels, and the information you are looking for is offset to the sides).
I understand why double pages make sense with a paper book, but I don't understand it with a tablet type device. Especially not since it increases the price considerably.


I can think two reasons to have a two-page tablet. First, for some people who have played for decades looking for two or more pages in sequence it may feel odd to look always for the same "page" up <-> down. Something like GVIDO may give the feeling of reading a paper book. Second, with a two-page display we can anticipate the next page. These are two reasons that only a small number of people can find value, but I think a product like GVIDO is designed precisely for a very narrow market niche and with certain special needs.

Maybe there is a third and fundamental reason for having two pages: style, especially if it is a very expensive product.
Posted By: TomLC

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/05/19 02:39 PM

I agree with JoBert. If they sold a one page model, they could price it at less than a iPad Pro. Which could increase sales. The accessories are also overpriced compared to the competition. It is elegant though with the leather cover. shocked
Posted By: MarioPf

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/05/19 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by TomLC
I agree with JoBert. If they sold a one page model, they could price it at less than a iPad Pro. Which could increase sales. The accessories are also overpriced compared to the competition. It is elegant though with the leather cover. shocked


In this case, people would pay a little more for an iPad Pro 12.9", because it is much better.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/05/19 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by MarioPf
I can think two reasons to have a two-page tablet. First, for some people who have played for decades looking for two or more pages in sequence it may feel odd to look always for the same "page" up <-> down. Something like GVIDO may give the feeling of reading a paper book. Second, with a two-page display we can anticipate the next page. These are two reasons that only a small number of people can find value, but I think a product like GVIDO is designed precisely for a very narrow market niche and with certain special needs.

Maybe there is a third and fundamental reason for having two pages: style, especially if it is a very expensive product.

Originally Posted by MarioPf
Originally Posted by TomLC
I agree with JoBert. If they sold a one page model, they could price it at less than a iPad Pro. Which could increase sales. The accessories are also overpriced compared to the competition. It is elegant though with the leather cover. shocked

In this case, people would pay a little more for an iPad Pro 12.9", because it is much better.

Definitely this would be reasonable as a lower cost alternative.

Personally, I would still like to have two pages at a time as that falls into the category, of "if one can afford it, it still seems better to me" along the lines you mentioned also. That said, there is a thread on ABF going on at this moment also about GVIDO and I just learned that Forscore does in fact support two iPad Pros using a helper app - and the latter might even be cheaper if one is willing to buy open-box iPad Pros. The price difference is a few hundred dollars, but, not to sound elitist, but such a small difference doesn't matter as much to me as the ability to use almost standard software (Forscore vs. some proprietary software on GVIDO), and that annotations work better under Forscore. Any difference in usability could be solved as I'm quite certain I could have a "hinge" 3D-printed for me which could lock the two iPad Pros together. That seems like it would be a win-win over a GVIDO to me.

Better though is relative. Some aspect of better is probably that some people think it might be more versatile since one could do other iPad-ish things with a dual iPad Pro solution. But as a seeker of convenience, I'd want my score reading solution to be always with my piano running the necessary software at all times, and for regular iPad use, I would simply get another iPad (probably not a pro, since mobility/size is more of a concern for me) to carry around and do my non-piano other stuff. This in fact is similar to what I do now with my VST. It runs on a dedicated piano-computer parked at my piano and left always on. The additional cost of having another computer is offset by the convenience of me never having to turn anything on and in life, we often pay for convenience.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/05/19 03:52 PM

I’m all for using two iPad Pros with Forscore; which I did not know was possible (left/right) until now.
I’d bypass the newer iPads and go for the 1st generation iPad Pro. These come up on EBay for as little as $400. So for half the price you’re getting left/right screens and better functionality.
In terms of e-ink vs. the iPad screen I wouldn’t mind the IPad. It’s not like I’m practicing under the sun or under very bright lights.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/05/19 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14
I’m all for using two iPad Pros with Forscore; which I did not know was possible (left/right) until now.

Neither did I so I am grateful that Groove On pointed that out it works with a helper application.

Originally Posted by Pete14
I’d bypass the newer iPads and go for the 1st generation iPad Pro. These come up on EBay for as little as $400. So for half the price you’re getting left/right screens and better functionality.

That ties with an issue of the iPad, which is planned obsolescence, I presently have an older iPad right now and it becomes more and more useless everyday. Why? Because Apple stops updating older iPads with new releases of the iOS operating system, and while I don't care about this, apparently app developers do as they also stop supporting the older versions of iOS with their apps. So right now, several of the apps I use are only of the older versions where I can't use any of their new features. Even for only using one app on the pair of dual iPad Pros - Forscore - I would not want this issue to pop up unless the developer promised to support old versions of iOS as long as possible. While it would still eventually happen, I can postpone this the longest by buying the current generation iPad.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/05/19 04:05 PM

I think it's for product differentiation and positioning at a premium price market and price point. There are plenty of single-screen A4-class e-readers targeted at musicians, like the PadMu, Max2 and Good eReader. I assume GVido just wanted to emulate a standard music book format and position themselves as a premium choice (because who else would spend thousands on something a photocopier can do for a few cents per score)?
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/05/19 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
I assume GVido just wanted to emulate a standard music book format and position themselves as a premium choice (because who else would spend thousands on something a photocopier can do for a few cents per score)?

I'd prefer migrating to a two-iPad solution myself. I'm using paper right now and it is not convenient. In fact, I've several times thrown temper tantrums at paper sliding off my music rest when I am right in the middle of playing a piece. Fortunately, no one was around to see me behave like a child! LOL
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/05/19 04:32 PM

Rofl. Once I'm past the the "serious scrutinization" phase of learning, when I'm penciling in fingering marks and dynamics indicators, I put my printed score into a binder so that I'm not dealing with individual sheets. It makes organization a lot easier.

If I got a GVIDO for free, I'd be ecstatic, and I'm sure I'd use it. But at $1500+ I'd rather sink that into an HTPC config with a large touchscreen to run my VST. It would display 2x sheets just fine smile
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/05/19 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
But at $1500+ I'd rather sink that into an HTPC config with a large touchscreen to run my VST. It would display 2x sheets just fine smile

...but which introduces an ergonomics issue. I have essentially that setup but my screen is not a touch screen - it is one of the few things my piano computer does other than running a VST. So while I do use it to display scores, it isn't convenient as I have to update the scores in Musescore to annotate (or change fingering). Which is why I am suffering with the paper sliding off the music rest issue, instead.

But let's say I exchanged my large monitor for a touch screen. It's still not ergonomically convenient as it is too high. Not that it hurts my neck as it isn't that high, but it does limit my peripheral vision of the keys since my line of sight is too far off of the keys, so to look down if there is any sort of jump, I have to actually look, and not depend on peripheral vision.

For this reason, I still prefer a tablet solution on the music rest (whether iPad, GVIDO, or similar) as most of the time, I could then get away with seeing my hands/fingers with peripheral vision and leave my eyes on the score, as I do right now with my paper scores.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/05/19 04:41 PM

The one thing I couldn’t find was a case that would accommodate the two iPads side by side in a “book” format. So basically the two iPads would stand independently. This is more of an aesthetic aspect, but it would also come in handy for mobility purposes. I’d rather move about with a book-like enclosure housing the two iPads over carrying two separate iPads.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/05/19 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14
The one thing I couldn’t find was a case that would accommodate the two iPads side by side in a “book” format. So basically the two iPads would stand independently. This is more of an aesthetic aspect, but it would also come in handy for mobility purposes. I’d rather move about with a book-like enclosure housing the two iPads over carrying two untethered iPads.

That's why I mentioned 3D printing a "hinge" further up. I am with you on this point even though I intend to leave the solution permanently on my music rest and not take anywhere. I'd still like it in "book format." So if I do this, it will be a 3D printed hinge for me and superglue. smile
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/05/19 04:48 PM

You could probably sell this “super hinge”. The trick would be to use a glue that leaves no marks when the “super hinge” is removed. So let’s get to building this accessory before Apple beats us to it. wink
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/05/19 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14
The one thing I couldn’t find was a case that would accommodate the two iPads side by side in a “book” format.

Based on this discussion and in the related ABF thread, I will most likely proceed in stepwise fashion (well, after upgrading my piano first, as that's a much bigger priority than not throwing temper tantrums at paper curling off my music rest!). I need a new iPad anyways to replace my current decrepit iPad. So I will first buy a smaller non iPad Pro for myself that I'd use anyways day-to-day. I will then install Forscore on both my ancient old iPad and the new one, along with the "cue" helper app that was mentioned. And I will test it out. If after a few weeks, it seems fully usable and a good replacement for my current paper scores in all respects, including annotation, then I will buy two iPad Pros for the final solution and 3D-print myself a hinge for them. If I find it less than hoped for, I will re-look at the GVIDO product, but that now is more of a backup alternative.

Originally Posted by Pete14
You could probably sell this “super hinge”. The trick would be to use a glue that leaves no marks when the “super hinge” is removed. So let’s get to building this accessory before Apple beats us to it. wink

Haha! Yes, I'm sure we aren't the only ones wanting to yoke two iPads together, in book-like fashion!
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/05/19 05:00 PM

So it looks like currently, the cheapest two iPad solution using 12.9" iPads is $1998 not including the cost of 3D-printing a hinge, which is a bit more than the GVIDO while the screen is 0.4" smaller. But 0.4" is negligible and the improved annotation will make up for the $300 price difference.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/05/19 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

But let's say I exchanged my large monitor for a touch screen. It's still not ergonomically convenient as it is too high. Not that it hurts my neck as it isn't that high, but it does limit my peripheral vision of the keys since my line of sight is too far off of the keys, so to look down if there is any sort of jump, I have to actually look, and not depend on peripheral vision.


Yes, the height will definitely need to be reviewed with this kind of solution. Especially on a hybrid grand, the music desk is quite high as it is. I know a lot of folks use ipads on them, but I don't know how much taller a large touchscreen display would be, possibly up to an inch more. I've been thinking about this for more than a year, but the use case has never been so compelling over printed sheets to actually make me take the plunge.
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/05/19 05:41 PM

For those who are interested: There's a cheaper alternative to the iPad Pro: A Surface Pro tablet (previous year model, with minimal CPU specs, to minimize price) running Mobilesheets. Or if you want, two of them. smile
I've been using that (a single one) since a few months and it works great.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/05/19 05:50 PM

Originally Posted by JoBert
For those who are interested: There's a cheaper alternative to the iPad Pro: A Surface Pro tablet (previous year model, with minimal CPU specs, to minimize price) running Mobilesheets. Or if you want, two of them. smile

Does mobilesheets work as well or better than Forscore? How are annotations via a stylus? Can you make very small annotations (small print) using the stylus, or is it not accurate enough? Does mobilesheets work across two of these devices for two-page view of scores?

Originally Posted by JoBert
I've been using that (a single one) since a few months and it works great.

I see Amazon.com has it for $600 so a pair would come in at $1200. That's a good price and cheaper than GVIDO, although the Surface Pro solution is about 1" smaller than GVIDO. As I will only use this for one purpose - on my music rest only - I don't much care that it is Mobilesheets vs Forscore as long as the former works as well as the latter, since that will be the only app those two devices ever runs anyways.
Posted By: EPW

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/05/19 06:28 PM

https://www.zubersoft.com/mobilesheets/

Mike the developer is active on his forum and updates are often. He also is working on an e-ink version too.
I believe there is a free trial. I don't have an iPad to compare to ForScore. I like it and brought it to support his work and as a backup in case by #1 has a problem.


There is also https://musicreader.net/ software that is in final Beta testing stage for new version 5 release. If not in a major hurry I would bookmark and take a look when it comes out smile
I use this one because I like the two page display and I can't wait to version 5 is released.
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/05/19 07:37 PM

Tyrone, I'll answer your questions in the ABF thread.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/05/19 09:32 PM

Slightly off topic: anyone heard of the Nord Grand? grin
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/05/19 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14
Slightly off topic: anyone heard of the Nord Grand? grin


Nord Grand? What's that? Stay on topic, Pete. We're talking about ipads being used for screenreaders on NV10s here. Sheesh! (the nerve of some people)
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/05/19 10:30 PM

I apologize! I must’ve dreamt the whole thing about a Nord built by Kawai (crazy, right?), or it might’ve been the other way around, but back to the issue at hand: built-in iPads for the NV-10. wink
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/05/19 10:31 PM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by Pete14
Slightly off topic: anyone heard of the Nord Grand? grin


Nord Grand? What's that? Stay on topic, Pete. We're talking about ipads being used for screenreaders on NV10s here. Sheesh! (the nerve of some people)

Thanks for keeping us on-topic Gombessa! Now about those iPads....
Posted By: Fleer

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/05/19 10:31 PM

Two words: Nord Grand.
Posted By: Fleer

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/05/19 10:33 PM

And one number: 2.5
GB, that is.
As in: too little, too late.
Posted By: PwYm

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/05/19 10:49 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14
Wait..... so the music stand is not included?
I think I’ve blown a fuse. I’m going to need some therapy for this one. cry


They had to cut some corners to come up with such a cheap price.
Posted By: anotherscott

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/05/19 11:00 PM

Originally Posted by Fleer
And one number: 2.5
GB, that is.
As in: too little, too late.

Nah, it's fine. It's probably enough to load just about every Nord piano sample there is. And I don't expect they are going to be coming out with any new huge gigabyte samples either, because those wouldn't work on all the Nords that have been sold over the years, and supporting existing Nords with an expanding library is part of why people buy Nords. And the fact is, despite unimpressive size by some standards, Nord manages to make their pianos sound darn good, esp. for live performance, which is their niche, they do call it a "stage piano." At home or in a studio, you always have the option of VSTs anyway.
Posted By: Fleer

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/06/19 09:21 PM

Good points, a/scott, thanks.
Posted By: maurus

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/07/19 01:34 PM

About pricing: Compare these European (Thomann) prices - I guess the relations will be similar in other markets:

Nord Grand: 3099 Euros

Kawai VPC1: 1299 Euros
Nord Electro 6D 61: 1599 Euros

So you get wooden Kawai keys, all of the Nord Piano Library, plus a waterfall action for a second manual, plus organ, in a cheaper setup... hmm.

Granted, the Nord Grand provides a simpler setup, a big plus on stage, but it is not exactly lightweight either.
Posted By: anotherscott

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/07/19 01:52 PM

True the Nord Grand is not lightweight... but for a lot of people, is less likely to cross the line to unmanageable as the VPC1 more likely would.

But there are plenty of hammer action boards one could mate with an Electro to do something similar at lighter weight. Either way, you do lose some piano sample memory (Electro has 1 GB vs the Grand's 2 GB), and possibly the triple pedal.

The other thing is that a lot of people simply want to travel with just one board. Or if they're using two boards, they want some other function out of their third board, so splitting the Nord Grand's function itself into two boards might mean increasing the total rig from two to three boards.

But to the extent that your point is that the Nord solution is not the most cost-efficient, that's pretty much a given any time a rig includes a Nord. ;-) Nord is for when your priority is things other than cost effectiveness.
Posted By: maurus

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/07/19 03:40 PM

Hi anotherscott, yes, all your points are valid. I am just pointing to the price which should be a few hundred less IMO. The triple pedal is a real plus (miss that on my setup), the sample memory less so. I tried a combo Yamaha CP4 + Nord Electro myself and was not entirely satisfied... and I love the wooden Kawai actions.
Posted By: Rusty Mike

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/07/19 07:59 PM

Personally speaking, I’m a bit less sensitive on price if the instrument checks all the boxes - within reason of course. I’m pretty sensitive to carry weight (read: lazy) so something like the Nord Grand would home studio/extra special occasion use only. I currently have a Roland RD-800 in my studio which I’m perfectly happy with right now.

I have been playing my new Electro 6D through the RD lately and have really been enjoying the sound and feel combination. I can certainly see being happy with the Nord Grand. And I like the form factor with the flat top - perfect for a laptop, tablet or small synth.

We’ll have to wait for the Nord Grand to get in the hands of users and stores to better understand its value.
Posted By: nicknameTaken

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/11/19 08:12 AM

Originally Posted by Rusty Mike
Personally speaking, I’m a bit less sensitive on price if the instrument checks all the boxes - within reason of course. I’m pretty sensitive to carry weight (read: lazy) so something like the Nord Grand would home studio/extra special occasion use only. I currently have a Roland RD-800 in my studio which I’m perfectly happy with right now.

I have been playing my new Electro 6D through the RD lately and have really been enjoying the sound and feel combination. I can certainly see being happy with the Nord Grand. And I like the form factor with the flat top - perfect for a laptop, tablet or small synth.

We’ll have to wait for the Nord Grand to get in the hands of users and stores to better understand its value.


I do wonder if they fixed the soft-sluggish keyfeel, all kawai slabs embrace.
Nothing against the furniture ones, but the slabs just don't feel right.
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/11/19 08:15 AM

Originally Posted by nicknameTaken

I do wonder if they fixed the soft-sluggish keyfeel, all kawai slabs embrace.
Nothing against the furniture ones, but the slabs just don't feel right.

Hmmmmm... the Kawai cabinet/furniture DPs use the same actions as the slabs... for example, you will find the GF2 and the RH3 on both.
Posted By: nicknameTaken

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/11/19 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken

I do wonder if they fixed the soft-sluggish keyfeel, all kawai slabs embrace.
Nothing against the furniture ones, but the slabs just don't feel right.

Hmmmmm... the Kawai cabinet/furniture DPs use the same actions as the slabs... for example, you will find the GF2 and the RH3 on both.


That's not true. The MP11SE has the Grand Feel whereas the Kawai CA78 has the Grand Feel II. It's a big difference to me.

Big enough to say, when theres no GFII on a slab, I won't use that slab as long as it feels the same way the other Kawai slab do in terms of feel.
Posted By: RichieBill

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/12/19 08:51 PM

"White grand"? New "grand" sample?
https://www.norduserforum.com/general-no...60-60.html
... american Steinway? What do you think?
Posted By: kokatla

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/14/19 07:30 AM

I admit i am excited for this, though I have not tried the RH3 action. I am not quick to write it off just due to 'plastic' keys. The VPC1 keys are wooden and feel good but are totally unrealistically heavy compared to any real grand. Combining nords samples with any kawai action sounds like a win to me.
Posted By: MarioPf

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/17/19 12:56 PM

Live performance (Joel Lyssarides Trio) with a Nord Grand:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UiqdFF78AI
Posted By: RichieBill

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/17/19 06:28 PM

New "White grand" is probably old Malmsjo grand. We will see.
Posted By: 9190

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/27/19 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I don't know if Forscore forScore even supports a pair of linked iPad Pros in left-page-right-page format!

Yes, forScore supports this mode.

GVIDO music reader: a review
Agree with conclusions and comments there: too much drawbacks for too much price.

iPad Pro 12.9", forScore, Apple Pencil and AirTurn PEDpro or PageFlip FireFly are the best combination for work with sheet music.

The best iPad score reader for most people
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 04/27/19 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by 9190
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I don't know if Forscore forScore even supports a pair of linked iPad Pros in left-page-right-page format!

Yes, forScore supports this mode.

GVIDO music reader: a review
Agree with conclusions and comments there: too much drawbacks for too much price.

iPad Pro 12.9", forScore, Apple Pencil and AirTurn PEDpro or PageFlip FireFly are the best combination for work with sheet music.

The best iPad score reader for most people


Thanks! I'm definitely going to be testing out an iPad Pro with forScore first and see if it meets my needs before spending money on a GVIDO. If it does work for me, then I am going to get a 2nd one and have a hinge 3-D printed for me so that I have a nice 2-page score-reader.
Posted By: cphollis

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 05/01/19 01:06 AM

Late to this thread. Thinking very seriously about it. But my situation isn't the normal.

I play out in three different groups. I have some very nice acoustic instruments at home. Like, very nice. I am not a pro, just an enthusiastic hobbyist.

Where the Nord Grand might work well for me is when I want to bring game to a classy, small acoustic gig. One of my groups is a vocal duo where the only instrument is piano. Think private parties, country club gigs, wedding rehearsal dinners and the like. They pay well for the experience. So I'm inclined to invest and see what happens.

Electronically, and acoustically it's a NP4 (or Nord Stage 3) with a bit of attitude. Ample piano memory. Not much new here. The expanded sample memory is convenient, but -- in the real world -- not essential. I can do everything I need to do with my 1GB in the NP4. Even I find it hard to tell the difference between L samples and XL samples, no matter how closely I listen.

I typically play through killer-diller amplification. Ear candy for myself, and the audience if they care to listen. The full potential of the instrument is laid bare for all to hear -- as well as my sloppy playing.

Aesthetically, it's not exactly a slab. It looks organic. Tres cool. Others on my circuit bring shiny plastic piano shells, which I can't really wrap my head around. It just looks cheezy to me, especially when more than a few folks in the audience have an acoustic grand at home.

But it looks like a real instrument vs. a slab computer. I am intrigued.

The wild card is the Kawai action -- will it bring magic? I get magic on my high-end acoustic grand, will this be close enough to the real deal that I can't tell the difference?

We'll see.
Posted By: maurus

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 05/01/19 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by cphollis
The wild card is the Kawai action -- will it bring magic? I get magic on my high-end acoustic grand, will this be close enough to the real deal that I can't tell the difference?


With a Bosie at home? Hardly wink
But it might still be enjoyable to play...
Posted By: RichieBill

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 05/03/19 02:11 PM

New demo sample "White grand" on soundcloud:
https://soundcloud.com/nordkeyboards/white-grand?in=nordkeyboards/sets/nord-grand-sound-demos
Posted By: RichieBill

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 05/08/19 12:19 AM

"Soft White"?
Is the variation of "White grand" sound hidden under this name?
https://soundcloud.com/nordkeyboards/soft-white?in=nordkeyboards/sets/nord-grand-sound-demos
https://www.nordkeyboards.com/products/nord-grand
Posted By: RichieBill

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 05/18/19 12:46 PM

Fresh, new "red" scones in the bakery are ready to go wink
https://scontent.fscl11-2.fna.fbcdn...f66ca81fb86847d2f9511d68&oe=5D518D35

And finally, the first presentation:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=149&v=QqYEj5dBPhs
Sound quality is r...sh but always something.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 05/18/19 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by RichieBill
And finally, the first presentation:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=149&v=QqYEj5dBPhs
Sound quality is r...sh but always something.

OMG, is that what pianists do with one of these Nords? Play the dials, knobs, and buttons instead of the keys?

[Linked Image]
Posted By: mcontraveos

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 05/18/19 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by RichieBill
And finally, the first presentation:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=149&v=QqYEj5dBPhs
Sound quality is r...sh but always something.

OMG, is that what pianists do with one of these Nords? Play the dials, knobs, and buttons instead of the keys?


It's what they do with the VSTs as well -- endless fiddling with knobs, comparisons, downloads, etc. Sure, some of that is necessary, but most of the activity is orthogonal to making music.
Posted By: mcontraveos

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 05/18/19 02:47 PM

...I will further say that I am certainly guilty of my share of playing with the settings.
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 05/18/19 03:42 PM

I play with LOTS of settings. Eighty-eight of them. smile
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 05/18/19 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I play with LOTS of settings. Eighty-eight of them. smile

Do they work in combination? wink
Posted By: RichieBill

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/13/19 10:48 AM

New sample "White grand" alreade released:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&v=_kW-s7xboRI
XL version has 245MB. In comparsion to other XLs (200MB) is really grewed.
Posted By: jamiecw

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/13/19 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by RichieBill
New sample "White grand" alreade released:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&v=_kW-s7xboRI
XL version has 245MB. In comparsion to other XLs (200MB) is really grewed.


Sounds grand (pun intended) smile but the price of a Nord coupled with their meh action just cannot entice me...
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/13/19 01:30 PM

Wait, the Nord Grand has not been discontinued yet?
And here I thought that thing had been demolished; only to find out that Nord is still trying to convince us that the price tag is just fine. Heck, you could almost get an NU1+ some loud notes for that kind of money!
Posted By: HwyStar

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/14/19 12:35 PM

A new White Grand sample. Sounds nice! Sampled from a Steinway "B":

[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&v=_kW-s7xboRI[/video]
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/14/19 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14
Wait, the Nord Grand has not been discontinued yet?
And here I thought that thing had been demolished; only to find out that Nord is still trying to convince us that the price tag is just fine. Heck, you could almost get an NU1+ some loud notes for that kind of money!


I stand corrected: the NU1 no longer includes loud notes!
Posted By: RichieBill

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/14/19 07:56 PM

https://youtu.be/Nwrf7k5qEzE
Posted By: clothearednincompo

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/15/19 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by jamiecw
Sounds grand (pun intended) smile but the price of a Nord coupled with their meh action just cannot entice me...


But the Grand uses a Kawai action and not a meh action. wink
Posted By: akc42

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/15/19 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Originally Posted by jamiecw
Sounds grand (pun intended) smile but the price of a Nord coupled with their meh action just cannot entice me...


But the Grand uses a Kawai action and not a meh action. wink


Its the Kawai RH3 action. Makes me wonder - do you think Kawai are about to announce upgrades to GFC action of their top ends slabs?
Posted By: pold

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/15/19 11:38 AM

I am not interested in the RH3, but the demo of the Nord white grand sounds better than any Kawai sample. But obviously we have to take any demo with a pinch of salt.
Posted By: Frédéric L

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/15/19 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by akc42
Its the Kawai RH3 action. Mates me wonder - do you think Kawai are about to announce upgrades to GFC action of their top ends slabs?


It is expected if we compare the nearly 20kg of the Nord Piano Grand with VPC1 (30kg) and ES8 (20kg), but I have not read anything official about this. I would be interested in knowing your source.
Posted By: maurus

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/15/19 04:33 PM

Look here:

https://www.norduserforum.com/nord-...-grand-keybed-customized-rh3-t17716.html

Pablo Mastodon is working for American Music & Sound, the distributor for Nord products in the US.
Posted By: Frédéric L

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/15/19 08:17 PM

Thanks wink
Posted By: RichieBill

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/16/19 07:39 PM

Another short demo of White grand:
https://youtu.be/3Ve2d_xV90k
Posted By: aokman

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/17/19 01:34 PM

Nice introduction on Andersons:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwrf7k5qEzE

I am keen to try one personally. I have the Kawai CS11, love the key action but the built in sounds are pretty dull I think and the lack of any new updates, sounds etc has been pretty boring. I have always dreamed of a Nord sounds with a Kawai action! It is a shame that Kawai licensed their action out without Nord reciprocating at all and maybe giving Kawai some new samples to integrate into their products.
Posted By: Chaser

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/17/19 03:38 PM

I play a CS7 at home, and love the grand feel action. The samples arent as good as Nord's though, so I'm tempted with going down a VST route to see if I can get the equivalent on mine without having to go out and buy a new piano.
Posted By: Phil Baron

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/17/19 07:57 PM

Hi All. I'd like to ask for some advice. I have been looking for a replacement board (88 weighted) for a top piano bar in Chicago, that has had a Yamaha P300 for many years. It's plays fairly well, but it's dated. I decided to put the Kawai MP7se in the place, but it turns out that every single player, including myself, HATED the action on it. It's not even close to the MP11, which I personally own. It's sluggish, spongy, and not at all acceptable for a dozen or so seasoned piano entertainers, most of whom learned on acoustic pianos. We returned the MP7SE, and I had my sights set on the new NORD Grand, and planned to purchase that when it was released, as I thought that would be a great choice. Now, I see, from reading these forums, that the action on the NORD Grand will be the RHIII, the exact same as the Kawai MP7SE. Is this true? Does anyone have any information that would indicate that the action will be different than what is in the MP7SE? If this is a fact, it is one of the most deeply disappointing things yet. That would be a deal killer for us to put the NORD Grand in this club, and would mean we're back to the Yamaha CP88, which seemed OK, but didn't really blow me away. Should we consider the NORD Piano 4? I appreciate any comments or insight you guys (and gals) might provide. (While we're at it, any thoughts on the Dexibell S9?) Thanks in advance, - Phil
Posted By: anotherscott

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/17/19 09:02 PM

I believe the Nord Grand action is supposed to be a version of what's in the Kawai MP7SE, but not identical. Nord alters some things to its specification.

If you like the MP11, why not just get an MP11?
Posted By: maurus

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/17/19 09:57 PM

+1

Indeed many who learned on acoustic pianos will probably like the MP11SE for piano.

On the other hand, with the right amplification the Nord Grand might turn out to be quite attractive after all, since it's always about the action-sound connection, and not about either of these components separately. We'll have to wait and play the thing!
Posted By: aokman

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/17/19 11:52 PM

It certainly is interesting, I have to say not as enticing though if it isn’t just a lifted GF2 action... sure I understand the weight argument for wood keys but seriously they already have the Stage 3 and Piano 4 for portability. Just commit to the form factor and go all in, if this was what we hoped, it would be hands down no contest the best digital out there with the key action, samples and effects.

Looking at the pics the blacks look wood and the Ivory feel tops the same as the GF2 so it is confusing. The Nord forums claim it is a completely custom design for Nord, maybe Kawai wouldn’t license out their flagship setup? Also confusing is the Nord rep is claiming hammer sensors which would make it more of a hybrid? Isn’t the GF2 just a conventional triple sensor under keybed?

Honestly they should have just teamed up and created a piano baby.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/18/19 01:59 AM

Originally Posted by anotherscott
I believe the Nord Grand action is supposed to be a version of what's in the Kawai MP7SE, but not identical. Nord alters some things to its specification.


Correct.

Originally Posted by anotherscott
If you like the MP11, why not just get an MP11?


This.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/18/19 02:09 AM

Hello folks,

I'm not sure why there is still confusion over the action used inside the Nord Grand. The product page on the Nord website makes this pretty clear:

[Linked Image]

"Kawai Responsive Hammer", not "Kawai Grand Feel".

Originally Posted by aokman
Looking at the pics the blacks look wood and the Ivory feel tops the same as the GF2 so it is confusing.


Which pictures are you referring to? Can you provide some links please?

Here is a shot of the Grand Feel II keyboard, with the ebony grain on the black keys clearly visible.

[Linked Image]

Originally Posted by aokman
Also confusing is the Nord rep is claiming hammer sensors which would make it more of a hybrid?


The definition of 'hybrid' is not fixed, however I don't believe using hammer sensors makes the action a "hybrid" - regardless of the definition applied.

Originally Posted by aokman
Isn’t the GF2 just a conventional triple sensor under keybed?


No, the sensors on the GFII action are above the key, and triggered by the hammer.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: aokman

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/18/19 02:25 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Hello folks,

I'm not sure why there is still confusion over the action used inside the Nord Grand. The product page on the Nord website makes this pretty clear:

[Linked Image]

"Kawai Responsive Hammer", not "Kawai Grand Feel".

Originally Posted by aokman
Looking at the pics the blacks look wood and the Ivory feel tops the same as the GF2 so it is confusing.


Which pictures are you referring to? Can you provide some links please?

Here is a shot of the Grand Feel II keyboard, with the ebony grain on the black keys clearly visible.

[Linked Image]

Originally Posted by aokman
Also confusing is the Nord rep is claiming hammer sensors which would make it more of a hybrid?


The definition of 'hybrid' is not fixed, however I don't believe using hammer sensors makes the action a "hybrid" - regardless of the definition applied.

Originally Posted by aokman
Isn’t the GF2 just a conventional triple sensor under keybed?


No, the sensors on the GFII action are above the key, and triggered by the hammer.

Kind regards,
James
x


Thanks for the clarification James, obviously I have not seen one up close yet but in the videos they seemed to have a similar texture to the GF2 keys not polished plastic that usually stands out more. Disappointing that it isn’t the GF2 action to be honest, would have been the perfect package! Seems stupid to go after portability in such a product.

I am mainly going off the Andersons video as its the first proper intro I have seen, boy that White Piano sample is delicious!

I think I need to try Pianoteq and try to improve the CS11 sound a bit smile
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/18/19 02:39 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James

Originally Posted by aokman
Isn’t the GF2 just a conventional triple sensor under keybed?


No, the sensors on the GFII action are above the key, and triggered by the hammer.


In fact, IIRC the vast majority of high end digital actions (particularly 3-sensor ones) are all hammer-sensors rather than key sensors.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/18/19 02:40 AM

Originally Posted by aokman
Thanks for the clarification James...


Well, that's partly what I'm here for. wink

Now I just have to correct all of the comments posted by "Electrics Nut" in the Andertons video...

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/18/19 02:41 AM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
In fact, IIRC the vast majority of high end digital actions (particularly 3-sensor ones) are all hammer-sensors rather than key sensors.


...some 3-sensor actions are not actually 3-sensor. wink
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/18/19 02:44 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by Gombessa
In fact, IIRC the vast majority of high end digital actions (particularly 3-sensor ones) are all hammer-sensors rather than key sensors.


...some 3-sensor actions are not actually 3-sensor. wink


Now there's a can of worms for another thread!
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/18/19 02:47 AM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by Gombessa
In fact, IIRC the vast majority of high end digital actions (particularly 3-sensor ones) are all hammer-sensors rather than key sensors.


...some 3-sensor actions are not actually 3-sensor. wink


Now there's a can of worms for another thread!


This was already discussed in another thread a few days ago. I'm not going to link to it directly, but it should be relatively easy to find.
Posted By: HwyStar

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/18/19 10:43 AM

Piano man Chuck testing the new White Grand sample:

Posted By: HwyStar

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/19/19 11:06 AM

Funk on:

Posted By: RichieBill

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/20/19 01:23 AM

White grand - this time at Electro 6D:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoT0NeW8jIA
Posted By: HwyStar

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/20/19 01:12 PM

Playing to backing tracks is such a great way to improve your piano playing skills as Mike does in the previous funk video. It doesn't always work like Mike did when he made a few mistakes, but he understands how to get out of the error and cover up his mistakes. I play to backing tracks all the time playing guitar. Try this too: Play to backing tracks with your eyes closed and it will open up a whole new way of playing. You learn to play from the heart and not the head.

I have decided to go to Sweetwater at the beginning of August; when they will be receiving their first batch of Nord Grand pianos. This is from salesman, Gage, at Sweetwater.

Hopefully, I will be able to play the Nord Grand, NU1X, N1X, CLP-695GP, and N3X all at the same place to make my final decision. The order I have put those pianos in is the same order of preference I have in getting a new piano. I am bored playing the Kawai samples and need a different sound. I really like the Roland PHA50 action but am not a fan of the sounds. And no, I do not want to tweak the knobs of Pianoteq. Been there and have done that too many times. Enough clutter and wires and "let's just try the next patch" which always leads me to sound confusion. Play the da*n piano, would you please!

That's it, I'm done, finished, kaput, the end, moving on. Until August...
Posted By: HwyStar

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/20/19 11:13 PM

The Nord Grand manual is now online: Nord Grand Manual
Posted By: RichieBill

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/23/19 09:53 PM

Quick review from Netherland:
https://youtu.be/ry-IiXShe1E
Posted By: RichieBill

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/23/19 10:35 PM

Another presentation of White grand sample:
https://youtu.be/5isWTlbtEG0
Posted By: Sweelinck

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/26/19 04:56 AM

Nord Grand $3499
Kawai MP7SE $1799

Apparently they have the same action, but different samples, models, and user interface.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/26/19 05:04 AM

Two times more expensive isn’t that bad taking in mind how many excellent piano samples there are for Nord and all the other samples.
Posted By: anotherscott

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/26/19 05:38 AM

Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Nord Grand $3499
Kawai MP7SE $1799

Apparently they have the same action, but different samples, models, and user interface.

They have a similar (bit not identical) action, and nothing else in common other than being digital pianos.

Probably the best way to look at it is that it's a $3k Nord Piano 4 that you pay $500 more for to get a version of the MP7SE action and upgraded aesthetics/ergonomics.
Posted By: EssBrace

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/26/19 07:17 AM

Originally Posted by anotherscott
Probably the best way to look at it is that it's a $3k Nord Piano 4 that you pay $500 more for to get a version of the MP7SE action and upgraded aesthetics/ergonomics.


And double the (piano) sample memory.
Posted By: Sweelinck

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/26/19 11:31 PM

I like Nord keyboards. The pianos that ship with the two keyboards in question probably would not be the deciding factor for me. I would value that Nord keyboards can update the piano samples easily when new samples are released. I’m not sure how well that is supported in the Kawai. The Nord EPs May be better than Kawai’s. But polyphony of the synthesizer sounds (46 notes) in the Nord may be too low to support layering of sounds without being susceptible to note stealing. And the absence of harpsichord sounds in the Nord would be a showstopper for me personally even if the prices were the same, although I understand that would not matter to many others.

You could buy a Roland Integra-7 midi module with the cost difference and still have cash left over.
Posted By: Rusty Mike

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/27/19 01:42 AM

There are multiple harpsichords in the Nord library. You are covered.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/27/19 02:49 AM

Originally Posted by Sweelinck
But polyphony of the synthesizer sounds (46 notes) in the Nord may be too low to support layering of sounds without being susceptible to note stealing.


May I ask if you are speaking from experience having played a Nord instrument?

The number may seem low (compared to other manufacturer's boards), however I do not recall ever reading a post from Nord customers complaining of note stealing.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/27/19 03:03 AM

I call for a ten-year mandatory sentence for anyone caught stealing notes; be it Nord, Yamaha, or Kawai, note-stealing is not what our founding fathers -Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven- envisioned for us.
Say no to note-stealing!
Posted By: anotherscott

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/27/19 03:35 AM

Originally Posted by Sweelinck
I like Nord keyboards. The pianos that ship with the two keyboards in question probably would not be the deciding factor for me. I would value that Nord keyboards can update the piano samples easily when new samples are released. I’m not sure how well that is supported in the Kawai.

Kawai samples are fixed at birth.

Originally Posted by Sweelinck
The Nord EPs May be better than Kawai’s.

I haven't heard the recent Nord updates, but at least up until then, I actually preferred Kawai's EPs.

Originally Posted by Sweelinck
IBut polyphony of the synthesizer sounds (46 notes) in the Nord may be too low to support layering of sounds without being susceptible to note stealing.

The Nord doesn't let you layer two synth sounds, so problem solved. ;-) (And when you layer a piano sound with a synth sound, the polyphony of one does not affect the polyphony of the other.)
Posted By: Sweelinck

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/27/19 04:32 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
But polyphony of the synthesizer sounds (46 notes) in the Nord may be too low to support layering of sounds without being susceptible to note stealing.


May I ask if you are speaking from experience having played a Nord instrument?

The number may seem low (compared to other manufacturer's boards), however I do not recall ever reading a post from Nord customers complaining of note stealing.

Kind regards,
James
x

I own a Nord C2, but there are no practical limitations with polyphony with this keyboard. Polyphony often can be an issue with virtual analog synthesizers. The Nord Lead 1 and 2x had 20 voices, bumped up to 26 in the Lead A1, which is the VA synth engine incorporated in the Nord Stage. But each voice can be 4-tone multi-timbral, so I think it would be like having 4x26 = 104-voice polyphony as you only need large amounts of polyphony to layer tones.

If I understand the specs of the Nord Grand correctly, the Nord Grand has sampled synthesizers instead of modeled VA ones, with 46 voices of polyphony. So, what players have experienced with other Nord keyboards is not representative of the Nord Grand.

As far as the Nord harpsichord sound goes— how does one go about trying it out before buying a keyboard? Thrown into the sample library without including it in a keyboard is not suggestive of a top-tier sample, but maybe it is quite good. Most Nord sounds are.




Posted By: Sweelinck

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/27/19 04:40 AM

Quote

The Nord doesn't let you layer two synth sounds, so problem solved. ;-)

Or problem created (no layering).
Posted By: PianoManChuck

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/27/19 04:47 AM

Originally Posted by Sweelinck

As far as the Nord harpsichord sound goes— how does one go about trying it out before buying a keyboard? Thrown into the sample library without including it in a keyboard is not suggestive of a top-tier sample, but maybe it is quite good. Most Nord sounds are.

You can preview what any of the samples (including harpsichord) sound like by going to the appropriate sound library on the nord site.

Nord sample library 2: https://www.nordkeyboards.com/sound-libraries/nord-sample-library-20
- or -
Nord sample library 3: https://www.nordkeyboards.com/sound-libraries/nord-sample-library-30

Click on Piano to get to harpsichords. From there you can hit the play button next to the sample you're interested in before you download it.
Posted By: Sweelinck

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/27/19 06:30 AM

That’s not the same as playing it. But anyway, I was not wanting to debate the relative merits of the MP7SE and Nord Grand. It is a steep price difference that will not be worth it to some, but may be to others, given they will have virtually the same action.
Posted By: anotherscott

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/27/19 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by Sweelinck
That’s not the same as playing it. But anyway, I was not wanting to debate the relative merits of the MP7SE and Nord Grand. It is a steep price difference that will not be worth it to some, but may be to others, given they will have virtually the same action.

It remains to be seen how "same" the action actually feels in practice, between the modifications made for this version of the action, and how the actions are mated to the sounds in terms of velocity curve and such.

But sure, if someone says, wow I love the Kawai RHIII, what's the cheapest board where I can get something like that, it's not going to be the Nord. You buy the Nord for reasons other than wanting that kind of action. I don't think there are very many people who choose their keyboards this way you describe. I mean, your line "It is a steep price difference that will not be worth it to some, but may be to others, given they will have virtually the same action" could just as easily be applied to choosing between a Korg D1 and a Korg Kronos 88, among other similar comparisons. The question isn't how the Nord Grand compares to the Kawai, but rather how it compares to the Nord Piano. The Nord Grand is largely for the Nord Piano customer who thinks, "this is the board I want, I just wish it felt more like a Kawai."
Posted By: RobR

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/27/19 01:21 PM

It's a matter of time before it hits stores and hands-on reviews start pouring in. From what i see on Instagram tags, it looks like most stores should have it by the end of July. I also read that there's a lot of pre orders for it.
Posted By: Sweelinck

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 06/29/19 01:08 AM

Quote

But sure, if someone says, wow I love the Kawai RHIII, what's the cheapest board where I can get something like that, it's not going to be the Nord. You buy the Nord for reasons other than wanting that kind of action. I don't think there are very many people who choose their keyboards this way you describe.

No, but they may also take into account that the kawai sounds are also very good.
Posted By: RichieBill

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 07/01/19 10:11 AM

Piano Man Chuck presents and comparing Nord grand vs Nord piano 4:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gU1soh9bgDM
Posted By: HwyStar

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 07/01/19 08:34 PM

Thanks for sharing that, Richie. I bet that Nord will be selling many of these pianos unless there is an issue with them.

The RHIII has probably not been modified that much so we know that is burnt in nicely. Only one new button has been added to the system and this button just affords the user from reaching too far and hitting a button by mistake (lockdown). Two Gig of memory affords us the ability to load eight XL piano samples into memory for instant recall. Did I say that you do not need to dig into a menu to find something? Plug it in, put the manual in a cabinet and forget about it.

Yes, the price is high but I do think that it bridges a gap between the MP11SE and the other much larger consoles. This board will be great for professional performers and now too for stay at home pianists.

No more wasting time tweaking the EQ to get it just right via a menu. Reverb, check. No metronome and drum tracks? Plug your iPad/Android into the audio input and blow away anything the other boards have to offer (within reason).

After tweaking my MP11 for many years now I have grown tired of how the interface works and digging through "pages" of menu options. Like Chuck says: Tired of playing a Steinway? Play a Kawai.

It would be great if they offered a much larger updateable memory board for more samples, but it appears that Rome was not built in a day and this is how they all make their money.

That's just my 5 grams (two pennies minted after 1981).

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.
Posted By: RichieBill

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 07/02/19 12:41 AM

Originally Posted by HwyStar
Two Gig of memory affords us the ability to load eight XL piano samples into memory for instant recall.

I think, currently 2GB of memory for samples is good enough for pianists, who need XLs. However after some time, for sure Nord will release next couple of XL piano samples sized c.a. 250MB and this 2GB memory of space can be much smaller for them.

Originally Posted by HwyStar
This board will be great ... now too for stay at home pianists.

Preciselly! This is a first Nord gear which got noise damper velvet tape. At last! I desired that in my sold Nord piano 2.

Originally Posted by HwyStar
It would be great if they offered a much larger updateable memory board for more samples, but it appears that Rome was not built in a day and this is how they all make their money.

If Nord grand will be succesful and continued, we can expect release of Nord grand 2 with 4GB of memory space, maybe in 2022(?) I hope so and I believe smile
Posted By: Dave Ferris

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 07/02/19 02:32 AM

From a pure schlep pov- I'm curious to see if Nord comes out with a specific case to fit the NG. And how much it will weigh.

I'd think any generic Gator type soft case to support a 45 lb. keyboard would have to be in the 15-20 lb. range. Which of course all of a sudden bumps that total weight to a not so friendly 60-65 lbs. wink
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 07/02/19 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by HwyStar
It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.


Personally speaking, if I already owned an MP11, I wouldn't attempt to sell it in order to fund the purchase of an Nord Grand. Instead, I would probably buy a secondhand Nord Piano (or even a Nord Electro) and MIDI this up to the Kawai - i.e. Kawai action controlling the Nord sound.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: MarioPf

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 07/02/19 10:47 AM

In theory, the Nord Grand worst enemy is the combination 'Kawai MP-11SE + Nord Electro': similar price, better action, Nord sounds plus Kawai sounds.

But in reality I think the Nord Grand will create (is already creating) its own place. It's a stage piano but, with the new Nord monitors, it's also a home piano.
Posted By: anotherscott

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 07/02/19 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by MarioPf
In theory, the Nord Grand worst enemy is the combination 'Kawai MP-11SE + Nord Electro': similar price, better action, Nord sounds plus Kawai sounds.

plus you get a good organ out of it!

But Nord is still primarily a brand for stage use, and for most people, an MP11 is too much to carry around.
Posted By: HwyStar

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 07/02/19 04:50 PM

I’m the guy (you know a guy?) that is looking to lighten the touch weight for my next piano. My MP11 is 61 at middle C.

I am hoping on finding an ES8 to play in my local area to compare it to the MP11 action. This way I can decide if I even want the NG.

If I wanted to mess with two keyboards then I would rather use Pianoteq since the latest version is quite good. But all those knobs and possibilities for just
“one more tweak” keeps me away from playing. Sigh...
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 07/02/19 05:09 PM

61g is higher than my mp11 was on middle c. How did you measure the weight? Distance from end of key, did it just start to drop it is that the weight to overcome letoff, did you take the bottom of the board to get it started, etc.?
Posted By: HwyStar

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 07/02/19 05:19 PM

I have piano weights so it was exact. No pennies here my friend!

I followed the videos online of the piano tuners. And, did the “tap the bottom” routine. It started to budge at 60 but then went down at 61. I have not been happy with the menu system on the MP11 enough to consider getting an SE. Don’t get me wrong, the MP11 action is great and feels really smooth. But, I want a lighter touch. I plan on keeping my MP11 if/when I get the NG to compare the actions. But I want to find an ES8 first. I’m just lazy and don’t want to drive for an hour and a half to find the nearest shop that carries Kawai DPs.
Posted By: RichieBill

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 07/02/19 09:29 PM

Again a short video with grand:
https://youtu.be/N9p-LXNL6_8
Posted By: HwyStar

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 07/03/19 04:48 PM

Off topic, Sorry; but it is related to my decision to pursue the NG. Or maybe even an ES8 or MP7SE...

Here is a post that OneWatt posted last year about his MP11SE-GF down/up action weights. Post: Last Thoughts Thread

To recap: He measured his board at 50-52 at middle C. My board has never been that low. Like Gombessa mentioned above, his MP11 is not "that" heavy.

Questions:
1. I do not think the actions between the MP11 and MP11SE are any different, both use the GF action so the action should perform exactly the same - right?

2. This is more of a question I would like to present to KJ: Is a technicians manual available on how to work on the GF action? It may need cleaning and lubricating? I do have a piano technician for my other pianos so armed with a manual he may be interested in servicing my older MP11. Heck, it isn't that hard to work on with a decent manual. Pop the top, grab some WD40 and empty the can into the action. Close it back up. Put rags under it for leakage and pound the snot out of it! Right? 3hearts

If I am straying too far off this thread then tell me to go back to my room upstairs and play Apex Legends... That will give my fingers a workout.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 07/03/19 05:10 PM

Originally Posted by HwyStar

2. This is more of a question I would like to present to KJ: Is a technicians manual available on how to work on the GF action?


I would urge you to contact Kawai US with that inquiry.

Originally Posted by HwyStar

It may need cleaning and lubricating? I do have a piano technician for my other pianos so armed with a manual he may be interested in servicing my older MP11. Heck, it isn't that hard to work on with a decent manual. Pop the top, grab some WD40 and empty the can into the action. Close it back up. Put rags under it for leakage and pound the snot out of it! Right? 3hearts



One thing I can tell you, the only lubrication on a GF action is viscosity grease on the letoff nub (which should not affect your weighting test). The key/hammer interface is a metal capstan against a foam/PTFE strip. Other than the letoff, there's no lubrication or grease anywhere on the action or keys.
Posted By: HwyStar

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 07/03/19 05:44 PM

So, it's a very good bet that the PTFE tape has moved or is indented like I have seen on a YT video explaining how to apply new PTFE.

I wonder if the newer MP11SE is using a different application system for applying the PTFE tape to the end of the key. I was not really that impressed with how it was done several years ago. The PTFE could move around on the sticky portion of the felt if the board got hot. In theory of course. I didn't take a blow torch to mine. Honest. But, it was in Nevada the whole time I had it and the low humidity/summer high temperatures (Reno) could have affected it. But being semi-retired now I have more time to get back into it.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 07/03/19 05:59 PM

I'm sure KJ can respond to that specific question, but I recall seeing a pic of the insides of the MP11SE once and didn't notice anything different about the PTFE tape and foam at the end of the keystick.

Note that the newer "Grand Feel Compact" action does away with that setup entirely. There's no more foam, PTFE or metal capstan. There's a plastic endcap on the key that presses directly against the hammer "shank" body. I imagine that this is a much more consistent connection (no glue or tape to come loose, no felt/foam to compress).
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 07/04/19 12:42 AM

Hello HwyStar,

Yes, the MP11/MP11SE both use the same "Grand Feel" keyboard action, so should, theoretically, feel the same.

If you feel the action on your MP11 is not performing as you would like, my recommendation would be to contact your dealer and/or Kawai America to seek assistance.

Service manuals for Kawai instruments are provided to Kawai dealers and registered technicians, however I do not believe these are typically provided to end users.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: HwyStar

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 07/04/19 06:45 PM

Thanks for the reply, James!

I am really not sure at this point what I want to do with the keyboard. I plan on going out and finding some piano's tomorrow to try out. I think there are RHIII and GFII's available to play so I will give those a go.

As is always, Thanks for your help!
Posted By: RichieBill

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 07/06/19 10:10 AM

I will be in the GuitarGuitar music store in Glasgow in 3 hours and I will be playing on Nord Grand smile
Posted By: jve

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 07/06/19 01:47 PM

Finally, a video from Bonners:
https://youtu.be/UBqA8eYzPLc
Posted By: RichieBill

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 07/08/19 05:02 PM

Another private presentation:
https://youtu.be/LwvGYXeYJb4
Posted By: RichieBill

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 07/09/19 07:56 PM

My visit in the store lasted roughly 20 minutes for three reasons. 1 - I was in Glasgow traveling to the airport on holiday with my family, 2 - there, in the store were a lot of people, which resulted a huge noise of talks and sounds of other instruments and 3 - no White Grand sample on Nord Grand, which I missed a complete feeling of this instrument. 
So, my testing of Nord Grand IMO is incomplete and insufficient, but it's always something.

Generally, the Nord Grand from the seat point does't look like a huge block, but again from an aesthetic point of view, it looks like a premium stage piano - not a flat board like the rest of nord instruments. Especially the upper red surface of the instrument looks beautiful.

Desktop of NG is the same simple as a Nord piano 4. The difference only is the control panel is oblique and panel buttons are quite close to the keyboard, which can actually results in accidental pressing of them, which actually also happened me twice while playing, so the key lock button is really desired in this instrument.

The keyboard has a very pleasant Ivory Touch imitation effect, without exaggerated structure and makes a very pleasant impression. The keyboard works almost quietly like in a digital pianos in full cabinet, which is due to the built-in velvet tape dampening the noise of keys, which has never been available before in any nord gears. The keyboard action in weight, IMO is medium enough (not too light, not too heavy), it has a noticeable escapement but the fast runs are not a problem. 
Who knows Kawai ES8, MP7SE or CN27/37 will be know how this keyboard works. The third keyboard sensor has a deep range of operation, which results in it's a high usability.

Comparing to other keyboards - apart from NG, there were in the store also Nord Piano 4 and Yamaha CP88. 
NP4 keyboard was clearly lighter than NG and the feeling of escapement was definitely less noticeable in NP4 than in the NG, not to mention the touch of plastic surface of NP4 keyboard. Yamaha CP88 keyboard also with Ivory Touch was slightly heavier. The difference in action between CP88 and NG is more about the character of the action. Personally, I don't like Yamahas keys action.

I am not writing anything about the sound, because on the board of the Nord Grand, were samples which every nord user know well (Royal Grand 3D, Amber Upright, etc.). 

I need to try and play on NG at least once more time again but in full silence and also with included the White Grand sample on the board.

P.S. This week I will be trying Kawai ES8 and probably MP7SE. After 20th of July I will try Korg Grandstage.
Posted By: RichieBill

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 07/11/19 05:37 PM

Another one review from Andertons:
https://youtu.be/8Yc1Aqq1ZFQ
Posted By: rio197

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 07/11/19 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by RichieBill
Another one review from Andertons:
https://youtu.be/8Yc1Aqq1ZFQ


It looks ace! Can't wait to try it out.
Posted By: RichieBill

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 07/16/19 07:00 AM

I found 2 another examples of White Grand:
https://youtu.be/ZJmzx3zFlU4
https://youtu.be/DY5Mtqo8zZs
Posted By: HwyStar

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 07/29/19 06:40 PM

This is a post from the Nord Users forum about the Nord Grand:

Originally Posted by SolMaster
Yesterday I spent quite a long time with the Nord Grand in Guitar Guitar Glasgow. As a Nord user, I am very familiar with all the piano samples, (which in my opinion are the best sounding of any portable keyboard) so I was only really there to see how it felt to play, rather than how it sounded.
I own a Yamaha U3, which I play a lot at home, so I was comparing the action to that, rather than my Stage 3.
First of all, I didn't want to stop playing it (which says rather a lot!)
Secondly, I left thinking that's the closest keyboard feel to a real acoustic piano keybed. It really was that good.
If you were a pianist looking for a portable unit to do solo work, accompanying vocalists or part of a small combo, look no further, it's really that good to play.
The question might now be whether Nord will continue with their Piano 4, apart from the obvious price difference.
Due to the various types of music and groups I play in, the Stage is still the do it all workhorse, but if I did more solo and accompaniment work, it would be the Nord Grand all the way.
Posted By: RichieBill

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 07/29/19 11:33 PM

Very nice beginning of your signature HwyStar smile
Give a shout when your red Graal will landed. First impressions always are hottest.
P.S. How did you set small font size of your signature?
Posted By: HwyStar

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 07/29/19 11:52 PM

PM sent.
Posted By: RobR

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 07/30/19 07:18 AM

No reason for me not to buy this when i try it soon.

- Keybed: Check. The ES8 action was hands down my favorite between all kawai actions i tried.
- Sounds: This will be the main deciding factor.
- Price: Well, let's say my G.A.S and money savings are on good terms for this one. My wallet gave the ticket pass for this purchase.


Posted By: RichieBill

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 08/09/19 09:59 PM

Again another one Nord Grand review:
https://youtu.be/b0yLSe5WS_M
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 08/09/19 11:08 PM

Originally Posted by RichieBill
Again another one Nord Grand review:
https://youtu.be/b0yLSe5WS_M


"The difference between the Kawai keybeds and the Fatar keybeds is that the Kawai keybeds actually do have hammers."

Wha...
Posted By: RichieBill

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 08/10/19 02:26 AM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by RichieBill
Again another one Nord Grand review:
https://youtu.be/b0yLSe5WS_M


"The difference between the Kawai keybeds and the Fatar keybeds is that the Kawai keybeds actually do have hammers."

Wha...

I think, this sentence is incomplete. Probably he meant "hammer simulators" or something similar but I agree - representative of Company should to explain it properly and much more detailed, especially in this case of keyboard action, which is so important aspect of this instrument.
Posted By: jamiecw

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 08/10/19 06:35 AM

Played on a Nord Grand the other day and the similarity between fatar and the RH3 from kawai is that they don’t have let-off..whereas the ES8 with the same action does. I wonder why that was left out.
Posted By: Chopin Acolyte

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 08/10/19 06:52 AM

I found this comment on YouTube:

Originally Posted by Sara Hyannis
To all pianoworld members, there’s a secret Facebook group that makes fun of each and every pianoworld member (well at least the ones that hang out at the “digital pianos” section of the forum). We have memes, videos, pictures, names and jokes about many of your members and their snobby pathetic behavior. The group has now roughly over 600 members. When we reach 1000, we plan on making the group public and show the world what a pathetic piece of [censored] species you are.


The same person used to comment on my videos. I have no clue who that is shocked
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 08/10/19 07:26 AM

Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
I found this comment on YouTube:

Originally Posted by Sara Hyannis
To all pianoworld members, there’s a secret Facebook group that makes fun of each and every pianoworld member (well at least the ones that hang out at the “digital pianos” section of the forum). We have memes, videos, pictures, names and jokes about many of your members and their snobby pathetic behavior. The group has now roughly over 600 members. When we reach 1000, we plan on making the group public and show the world what a pathetic piece of [censored] species you are.


The same person used to comment on my videos. I have no clue who that is shocked

Yes, the same person was also commenting under my videos with this and other registrations.

P.S. we’re in the wrong thread though.
Posted By: Chopin Acolyte

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 08/10/19 08:57 AM

Originally Posted by CyberGene

P.S. we’re in the wrong thread though.


I don't think so, that comment was posted on the Nord review video... (I censored some really naughty words)

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Animisha

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 08/10/19 09:18 AM

Whoa!! It is rare for me to think Get a life! but don't these people have anything better to do???

(For instance, practising the piano smile )
Posted By: HwyStar

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 08/10/19 09:38 AM

Which Nord YT video has this comment? There are a few videos now.
Posted By: Chopin Acolyte

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 08/10/19 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by HwyStar
Which Nord YT video has this comment? There are a few videos now.


The last one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0yLSe5WS_M the Sara Hyannis' comments are deleted, but you can still see the other comments.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 08/10/19 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by Animisha
Whoa!! It is rare for me to think Get a life! but don't these people have anything better to do???

(For instance, practising the piano smile )

One of the few pop musical groups I listened to as a kid was Talking Heads. From their output, there is a David Byrne song which seems appropriate:

Posted By: HwyStar

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 08/10/19 12:20 PM

Thanks, Chopin Acolyte.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 08/10/19 01:17 PM

If we were big enough to have a group of 600 people making fun of digital piano forum members, growing to 1000, Frank certainly wouldn't have any issues going to a subscription model!
Posted By: johnstaf

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 08/10/19 07:26 PM

Originally Posted by Sara Hyannis
To all pianoworld members, there’s a secret Facebook group that makes fun of each and every pianoworld member (well at least the ones that hang out at the “digital pianos” section of the forum). We have memes, videos, pictures, names and jokes about many of your members and their snobby pathetic behavior. The group has now roughly over 600 members. When we reach 1000, we plan on making the group public and show the world what a pathetic piece of [censored] species you are.


Perhaps we should be flattered that you think about us all so much, especially when nobody here would give you a second thought.
Posted By: MusicalDudeist

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 08/15/19 11:42 PM

Well, at least a couple of Grands have showed up in the US now based on the Nord Users Forum. Both offer very positive initial insights. They should start shipping over in bulk at the beginning of September according to Nord. I pre-ordered early so I'm excited!
Posted By: peterws

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 08/16/19 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by Sara Hyannis
To all pianoworld members, there’s a secret Facebook group that makes fun of each and every pianoworld member (well at least the ones that hang out at the “digital pianos” section of the forum). We have memes, videos, pictures, names and jokes about many of your members and their snobby pathetic behavior. The group has now roughly over 600 members. When we reach 1000, we plan on making the group public and show the world what a pathetic piece of [censored] species you are.


Perhaps we should be flattered that you think about us all so much, especially when nobody here would give you a second thought.


Any info on this site? Sounds like fun . . . .
Posted By: HwyStar

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 08/22/19 01:32 AM

Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 08/22/19 02:07 AM

Cool tune! wink
Posted By: Dave Ferris

Re: Nord introduces Nord Grand with Kawai Hammer action - 08/22/19 02:12 AM

Really dig Rai ! He was here in LA for sometime , not sure if he still is. He's an exceptional talent, with a really cool voice but did not care for the tone of the piano on that particular track.
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