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Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On

Posted By: David B

Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/08/19 09:57 PM

I was a little surprised when I saw the boxes upright at the dealers.

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Moving men helped me load it in the truck. If you're going to move these boxes around on your own you need a dolly or two strong people. It's manageable with a dolly and two weaker people smile.

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I'm incredibly impressed by the way it was packaged. I should have taken some pics of the unboxing because it is very well packaged. I suspect you can be rather rough with the handling and still not hurt it. Here is the aftermath.

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Setup was really simple. 16 screws and that's it. It took maybe 15 minutes. I had read the instructions beforehand. I tried to dress up my basement a little bit with a new rung and different color sheets on the walls. The rug makes it more cozy when I play.

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I made this little black box to be my computer/cable management box. I stained it ebony with a high gloss poly finish. I'm happy with it. It has my Mac mimi, monitor switcher, and 2i4 in it.

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I'm really happy with the unit. Thankfully everything seems to be working fine based on my limited evaluation. I'll write more of a review later. Here is a song I recorded from the Duane Shinn 52 week crash course (Lesson 34). I'll play it through as written and then arranged. I was so tempted to use my VSL Steinway for the sound, but in the spirit of the N1X thread, I'll use an internal sound. I've chosen the Bosendorfer Imperial because I think it sounds the best of the 5 internal sounds. I recorded directly onto a thumb drive without changing any of the factory settings.



God Bless,
David
Posted By: TomLC

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/08/19 10:14 PM

Excellent David! It looks and sounds great. Nice setup. Nice playing too.

Tom
Posted By: BradleyG

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/08/19 10:20 PM

Congrats! Looks like you've got quite a setup down there!
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/08/19 10:23 PM

Congrats! Looks and sounds like a great piano which I have no doubt it is! And lovely playing smile Seems like you’ve been playing it for a long time and not for just one day!

So, in your opinion the packaging allows for the separate packages to be put vertically for a moment - in my case an elevator? Apparently yours was put that way in the store and no damage has been done. Is there enough styrofoam to hold it tight and cushioned?

How many people assembled it? Was it only you and your wife? Is this feat feasible for an average male and a tiny wife? laugh

May this piano bring you a lot of joy!
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/08/19 10:40 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
So, in your opinion the packaging allows for the separate packages to be put vertically for a moment - in my case an elevator? Apparently yours was put that way in the store and no damage has been done. Is there enough styrofoam to hold it tight and cushioned?


My dealer actually transports the boxes that way. eek

The packaging is fantastic. The N1X is incredibly secure. Lots of foam and cardboard filler.

Quote
How many people assembled it? Was it only you and your wife? Is this feat feasible for an average male and a tiny wife? laugh


I assembled it and my wife helped me place the main unit on the base. Both of us are on the smaller side (I'm 5'9" 160lbs and not particularly strong. My wife is smaller than me but she does workout regularly and has good strength for a woman).

Assembly is easier than moving the boxes around. My wife and I would not be able to carry the main unit box by ourselves. We needed a dolly. Setup is very simple once the boxes are inside.

Quote
May this piano bring you a lot of joy!


Thank you.
David
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/08/19 10:41 PM

Originally Posted by TomLC
Excellent David! It looks and sounds great. Nice setup. Nice playing too.

Tom


Thank you.
David
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/08/19 10:52 PM

Congrats. That's a fine piano and I wish you a lot of fun with it. Welcome to the world of hybrids!

Originally Posted by David B
Originally Posted by CyberGene
So, in your opinion the packaging allows for the separate packages to be put vertically for a moment - in my case an elevator? Apparently yours was put that way in the store and no damage has been done. Is there enough styrofoam to hold it tight and cushioned?

My dealer actually transports the boxes that way. eek

I wouldn't be concerned. Acoustic grands are routinely transported and stored sideways, which is equivalent to putting the N1X's box vertically. It shouldn't be a problem for the action. And of course neither for the non-moving electronics parts and similar.
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/08/19 10:53 PM

Thanks for the pictures and the video! Looks great! I'll be interested in your opinion of playing it over the internal speakers and amplification versus your external setup (or do you even do that, is the external just for your VST?)

Man I am so excited to get mine... 6 sleeps!
Posted By: newer player

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/08/19 11:21 PM

David,

Nice photos.

Your basement floor may transmit moisture into the legs of the piano. So, I would recommend some quick subfloor options like a few DRICORE squares. They are cheap, easy to find, and super easy to install. They may also provide some piano protection from a bit of water on the floor. The plastic bumps on the bottom allow some air to circulate underneath so that may help prevent some mold in the concrete.

Alternatively, you could build a taller wood platform for a bit more flood protection.

Make sure there are no pipes above the piano to drip or to burst. If there are pipes, you might move the piano or figure some scheme to prevent water from possibly hitting the piano.

http://dricore.com/nw/subfloor_about.php
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/08/19 11:23 PM

Congrats David, and thanks for posting such great pics of the delivery and setup.

Hoping you have many years of enjoyment with your N1X!
Posted By: bSharp(C)yclist

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/08/19 11:29 PM

Great setup, very nice! Congrats on your purchase. The unit looks to be pretty deep, more so than the N2.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/09/19 12:13 AM

Thanks for the update, pictures, and video.
Posted By: pwl

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/09/19 12:19 AM

Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
Great setup, very nice! Congrats on your purchase. The unit looks to be pretty deep, more so than the N2.

Very perceptive! 24 5/16" vs. 20 7/8" per Yamaha website.
Posted By: TomLC

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/09/19 12:24 AM

The depth is unchanged from the N1. The N2 is not as deep. I suppose because it has a different speaker configuration.
Posted By: Dave Ferris

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/09/19 02:23 AM

Originally Posted by squidbot
Thanks for the pictures and the video! Looks great! I'll be interested in your opinion of playing it over the internal speakers and amplification versus your external setup (or do you even do that, is the external just for your VST?)


Yes, I was wondering what the KRKs are for. In my experience ( live gigging) with the N3, at a hotel that had one, when it was going through the house PA , it tended to sound more "electronic" then when just played through its own internal speakers. Yes, it projected over the bass and drums and out into the room better, but for me it lost the whole player-connection vibe of the Avant Grand.

Nice room and really dig that rug , very cool ! Congrats.

Originally Posted by pwl
Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
Great setup, very nice! Congrats on your purchase. The unit looks to be pretty deep, more so than the N2.

Very perceptive! 24 5/16" vs. 20 7/8" per Yamaha website.


Originally Posted by TomLC
The depth is unchanged from the N1. The N2 is not as deep. I suppose because it has a different speaker configuration.


I highly liked playing this at NAMM and yeah that was the first thing I did when I got home - I checked the depth measurements for my bedroom office space. The N2 would be much preferable in regard to fit. The N1X would stick out too far and take up way too much space. I could go with the P-515 on the dedicated stand....but somehow it just ain't the same. wink grin
Posted By: bSharp(C)yclist

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/09/19 03:21 AM

I thought maybe the keys would be longer in the X series, but I guess it's the same action as before.
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/09/19 03:40 AM

Originally Posted by squidbot
I'll be interested in your opinion of playing it over the internal speakers and amplification versus your external setup (or do you even do that, is the external just for your VST?)!


Originally Posted by Dave Ferris

Yes, I was wondering what the KRKs are for...


I really appreciate the audio interface on the N1X. It works great. I have the N1X running to my computer via USB. So I can use the N1X to control midi, play music through the onboard speakers or record in a DAW. I also have the L/R output of the N1X going to a passive splitter along with my Mac mini output. The splitter L/R output goes to my KRK monitors.

The splitter allows me the option to play audio/music through my computer without having the piano on, or I can run sound through just the N1X internal speakers, or both the N1X speakers and the monitors at the same time if I want. The N1X audio interface gives me plenty of options and it works great so far.

The only disadvantage in the N1X is not being able to separately control the Line Out volume. Unfortunately, both the internal speakers and line out volume are controlled by the same dial. That makes it hard if you're trying to blend the internal/external speakers for a more nuanced sound.

Here are a couple first impressions regarding the speakers:

1. I can be happy running my VST's through the onboard speakers of the N1X. The onboard speaker system sounds and performs well. The onboard speakers make the N1X vibrate while playing it thus making me feel more connected to the instrument like an acoustic piano. This tactile, organic feel, adds a significant realism to the experience (IMO).

2. Combining the external monitors with the N1X speakers brings out a bit more bass, clarity and brightness to the sound. However, it's difficult to get the right balance only having one control for both speakers systems. I'm still experimenting right now. I think the external monitors can enhance the sound provided they are balanced properly with the onboard system.

3. You definitely don't want the N1X pressed up against the wall if you're using the onboard speakers. It was like that at the dealers when I originally tried it and it sounded very muddy. I have it a couple feet away form the wall and it sounds a lot better. The 16cm speaker is right on the back of the speaker box facing the wall. It needs some clearance.

4. Plugging in headphones (even with my cheap ones) and using the CFX/Bosendorfer binaural samples sounds better than any combination I mentioned above. I can't imagine what it would be like with good headphones. However, you lose the vibration/tactile feel. Traditionally, I haven't used headphones so I'm not sure I'll be going down that road anytime soon.

God Bless,
David





Posted By: Learux

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/09/19 06:45 AM

Nice, but why not a real piano? You obviously have the money and the room.
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/09/19 07:07 AM

Originally Posted by Learux
Nice, but why not a real piano? You obviously have the money...


LOL. smile

I bought this on credit (interest free). I'll be paying it off for months. Thankfully, I was able to sell my MP11SE pretty quick.

The cheapest new Yamaha grand they had in the store was 13k dollars before tax. That's double the cost of the N1X and I didn't think it sounded that great.

Maybe I could find a used piano under 10k, but I really don't want to deal with the hassle of that. I did play a very expensive Shigeru Kawai when I was trying out the Novus. I'd rather have that than the N1X, but I don't think my family would be too happy if I sold our house to buy a piano. smile

God Bless,
David
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/09/19 08:05 AM

Originally Posted by David B
I'd rather have that than the N1X, but I don't think my family would be too happy if I sold our house to buy a piano. smile

Oh I don't know... your lad looks to be quite the trooper! grin
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/09/19 10:35 AM

David, it’s good to know that your VST sounds good through the on-board speakers.
Since trading my LX-17 for a P-515 (exclusively running Pianoteq), I do not believe that I’ll ever return back to playing on-board sounds; be it sampled or physically modeled. For me, it’s VST all the way; I digress.
The N1X is an excellent choice, and if I had the opportunity I’d pick it over the N2 in a heartbeat.
Posted By: lolatu

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/09/19 11:48 AM

You could add a small mixer into your computer cabinet rather than the passive splitter. Something like this: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Behringer-802-Input-Bus-Mixer/dp/B000J5XS3C

That would give you control of the relative volumes of the internal and external speakers, as well as a basic 3-band EQ, which will help balance the sound further.
Posted By: mydp

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/09/19 02:47 PM

Impressive... It is evident this is important for you.
I have noticed two benches, do you plan to play four hands?
Posted By: JoeT

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/09/19 02:54 PM

Congratulations to your new hybrid piano. Nice playing, sounds great.

If possible I would like to listen to some recordings of the room with he built-in sound through the speakers.
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/09/19 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by lolatu
You could add a small mixer into your computer cabinet rather than the passive splitter.


I actually have a small Mackie mixer (it's about 13 years old) that could do the job. I wish the N1X had a separate line out volume control like my MP11SE had.

God Bless,
David
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/09/19 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by David B
I wish the N1X had a separate line out volume control like my MP11SE had.


Be careful what you wish for! There was just some excoriating on here a few days ago because a DP *dared* to have a way to control line out volume in the first place!
Posted By: guyl

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/09/19 05:08 PM

For some, the form factor will surely evoke the square grand of the 1800's smile
Posted By: Alexander Borro

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/09/19 05:09 PM

David congratulations and I hope it brings you much pleasure, and a nice demo. thumb

FWIW, in terms of balancing loudness between the KRKs and the piano speakers, you do have dials on the back of the KRKs, however, if the piano speaker are already too loud this will no help much, you can go to +6 dB , but may get clipping, the other way round you can always turn down the KRKs as much as you need, they have a fair amount of range to play with, down to -30dB, the default setting is 0 dB.
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/10/19 03:38 AM

Using Midi Monitor I noticed that there is an "Aftertouch" before the final note off value of 64 (provided you don't release the key quickly). It will range from 31 to 20 depending on how slowly you allow the key to raise. Here is a screen shot with the values representing a slow lift. I believe I can hear this effect with both the internal sounds and my VST's (VSL/Pianoteq).

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My MP11SE registered no aftertouch, but it did register different note-off values.

Something else that's different from the MP11SE is the active sensor reading. If I don't play any keys Midi Monitor registers a continual string of Active sense readings.

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I can filter that reading out through midi monitor, but nevertheless, it's different from my Kawai.

So I think the key sensor on the N1X does help with expression for both internal sounds and VST's provided they have key off samples.

God Bless,
David
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/10/19 03:54 AM

Originally Posted by David B
Using Midi Monitor I noticed that there is an "Aftertouch" before the final note off value of 64 (provided you don't release the key quickly). It will range from 31 to 20 depending on how slowly you allow the key to raise.
...
So I think the key sensor on the N1X does help with expression for both internal sounds and VST's provided they have key off samples.


I think Cybergene recent explained how this most likely works--the AvantGrands will start to process key-off before the key or fully lifted, suggesting that there can be a different tone if you hold the damper just over/on the string without fully lifting the key. The aftertouch mechanism allows you to get that effect whereas note-off will only trigger once the key is fully lifted.

A good demonstration of the extreme lengths Yamaha goes to precisely replicate the sound of a real piano in their AvantGrands. It's virtually no-compromise.
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/10/19 04:17 AM

Originally Posted by mydp

I have noticed two benches, do you plan to play four hands?


The bench against the wall is the one that came with the N1X. It's an adjustable bench. I left it there for my son to use since he's taking piano lessons now. I figured it might be easier to swap benches every time we play rather than adjusting the same bench up and down every time.

I would really like to get a hydraulic bench for the ease of use, but I can't justify the cost right now.

God Bless,
David
Posted By: Harpuia

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/10/19 04:26 AM

I’m wondering how the audio interface help to play using the onboard speakers. If I’m using VST, I can also use a dedicated audio interface and output the audio to the line in of the DP right? I think it achieves the same purpose.
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/10/19 04:48 AM

Originally Posted by Gombessa

A good demonstration of the extreme lengths Yamaha goes to precisely replicate the sound of a real piano in their AvantGrands. It's virtually no-compromise.


That's encouraging. It should help with buyer's remorse. Actually, I was not tentative, apprehensive, reluctant, or timid at all about this purchase. I'm very thrilled with the prospect of playing this piano. I've amassed a firearms collection over the years that I'll be selling off to pay for the N1X. It actually feels good to trade the old hobby for this new one.

I'll keep a few firearms for practical purposes (I live in the country), but there is no reason to let them sit in the safe unused when the N1X can be used everyday. Plus, I don't have to worry about my hearing, lead contamination, or spending money every time I pull the trigger.

There is a onetime purchase with the piano (and some educational materials) and the rest it just time on the bench.

Well, maybe not a onetime purchase. I started out with a Yamaha DGX 650, sold that for a Kawai ES100, sold that for a ES8, sold that for a MP11SE, and finally sold that for the N1X. I think I'm done buying pianos. crazy

God Bless,
David
Posted By: JoeT

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/10/19 05:13 AM

Originally Posted by David B

Well, maybe not a onetime purchase. I started out with a Yamaha DGX 650, sold that for a Kawai ES100, sold that for a ES8, sold that for a MP11SE, and finally sold that for the N1X. I think I'm done buying pianos. crazy

Don't worry, you just got started on your grand piano collection. wink
Posted By: johnstaf

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/11/19 12:12 AM

Originally Posted by David B


There is a onetime purchase with the piano (and some educational materials) and the rest it just time on the bench.

Well, maybe not a onetime purchase. I started out with a Yamaha DGX 650, sold that for a Kawai ES100, sold that for a ES8, sold that for a MP11SE, and finally sold that for the N1X. I think I'm done buying pianos. crazy



I don't have a crystal ball, but I think it will be a long time before you want to replace your N1X with any other digital. The old N1 is still perfectly up to date for those who use it as a controller.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/11/19 04:13 AM

Congrats David, thank you for sharing the unboxing pictures and performance.

The rug definitely improves the atmosphere of the room too!

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/11/19 05:18 AM

Originally Posted by Harpuia
I’m wondering how the audio interface help to play using the onboard speakers. If I’m using VST, I can also use a dedicated audio interface and output the audio to the line in of the DP right? I think it achieves the same purpose.


That's correct. However, you run the risk of unwanted noise (e.g., buzz or ground loop, etc.) The AdvantGrand audio interface eliminates that possibility by keeping it digital.

The Aux input was a problem for me when I tried the NV10. I got an annoying buzz when I plugged my computer into it at the dealers. I'm sure I could have found a solution at home, but the built in audio interface on the N1X is pretty much plug and play.

God Bless,
David
Posted By: dohnjoy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/11/19 10:18 AM

Did anyone already mention that your rug is very nice? It really ties the room together.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/11/19 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by dohnjoy
Did anyone already mention that your rug is very nice? It really ties the room together.

I could just rattle on about that rug myself, including how it's positioned and the colors which transition toward warmth in the center but then are almost inexplicably extinguished by the black neutral center. Oops. That was already a few more words than this thread should get! laugh
Posted By: Tyr

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/11/19 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by Harpuia
I’m wondering how the audio interface help to play using the onboard speakers. If I’m using VST, I can also use a dedicated audio interface and output the audio to the line in of the DP right? I think it achieves the same purpose.


It's way easier to use because you just need one USB cable and thats all. On the Novus it was pain in the ass to use the line in, especially when using the internal headphone jacks of the instrument. The sound quality got worse and partially mono instead of stereo. With the build in audio interface on the Yamaha (NU1X in my case) all issues disappeared. I got also better latency results.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/11/19 11:44 AM

There are usually ground loop problems with line-in input.
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/11/19 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by dohnjoy
Did anyone already mention that your rug is very nice? It really ties the room together.

I could just rattle on about that rug myself, including how it's positioned and the colors which transition toward warmth in the center but then are almost inexplicably extinguished by the black neutral center. Oops. That was already a few more words than this thread should get! laugh


Thank you. I'll let my wife know. She helped me pick it out on Amazon.

God bless,
David
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/11/19 04:00 PM

Sort of a non sequitur, but I just noticed that in the first picture of the boxes in the store, someone is hiding behind the right side box smile
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/11/19 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by squidbot
Sort of a non sequitur, but I just noticed that in the first picture of the boxes in the store, someone is hiding behind the right side box smile


Must be the sales guy. My wife waited at home.

God Bless,
David
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/11/19 04:39 PM

Is it possible to open the packaging in a way that won't destroy it? And then pack the piano back the way it was if that's needed? I see a lot of torn cardboard in your pictures but I would assume you just didn't care smile
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/11/19 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Is it possible to open the packaging in a way that won't destroy it? And then pack the piano back the way it was if that's needed? I see a lot of torn cardboard in your pictures but I would assume you just didn't care smile


For sure. I just tore into it.

The main unit box lifts straight up after you cut the straps. It's like opening a Christmas present. smile

You can repackage the entire unit if you wanted. However, it's too late for me. My kids have made houses out of the boxes and cut holes for windows, etc.

God Bless,
David
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/12/19 03:27 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Is it possible to open the packaging in a way that won't destroy it? And then pack the piano back the way it was if that's needed? I see a lot of torn cardboard in your pictures but I would assume you just didn't care smile

Are you already thinking on how to return the N1X that you haven't yet received? wink
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/12/19 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Is it possible to open the packaging in a way that won't destroy it? And then pack the piano back the way it was if that's needed? I see a lot of torn cardboard in your pictures but I would assume you just didn't care smile

Are you already thinking on how to return the N1X that you haven't yet received? wink


I was afraid someone's gonna ask this laugh No, I don't intend on returning the N1X unless it's terribly faulty smile Even if that's the case, I prefer not having to improvise with my own packaging of an item like that and instead use the original packaging.

BTW, until yesterday my order in Thomann was labeled as something like "the item is not currently in stock and will be sent when it's in stock", while N1X was marked as "available in 2-3 weeks". Well, today the order is marked as "open" which judging by my previous order of NU1X means the item is available and is about to be sent. Not holding my breath yet but I secretly hope a miracle happened and I may have the piano sooner than expected...
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/12/19 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
BTW, until yesterday my order in Thomann was labeled as something like "the item is not currently in stock and will be sent when it's in stock", while N1X was marked as "available in 2-3 weeks". Well, today the order is marked as "open" which judging by my previous order of NU1X means the item is available and is about to be sent. Not holding my breath yet but I secretly hope a miracle happened and I may have the piano sooner than expected...

thumb thumb
This means you gotta work even faster on finishing your DIY controller! grin
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/12/19 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
This means you gotta work even faster on finishing your DIY controller! grin

Let's not hijack this thread with offtopic about my DIY controller and I'm already guilty of doing that on countless other threads laugh But yes, it means that indeed. But I'm determined to finish it though, regardless of the N1X arrival. I am pretty positive right now about the outcome, and (probably foolishly and naively) hoping that it would turn out to be a successful and accessible (read cheap) way for many other people to have a real grand piano action. Let's see.

Now, back to N1X, who was the other guy who expected a N1X soon? Was it squidbot? How are things going?

And you, Tyrone, I'm following you closely wink You're already spending too much time researching what piano to buy and I think you've overachieved. Time to order a N1X instead of worrying about ground loop, innit? laugh
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/12/19 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
And you, Tyrone, I'm following you closely wink You're already spending too much time researching what piano to buy and I think you've overachieved. Time to order a N1X instead of worrying about ground loop, innit? laugh

I'm actually waiting to try one on the piano shop! smile But it seems that people who are ordering sight-unseen such as yourself are getting them before the stores around here.

I did check on Youtube this morning to see if there are any new review videos and amazingly, the last reviews are still from NAMM in January - none of the independent reviewers (non-store reviewers like PianoManChuck) have done a review yet. I don't know if that is unusual or not.

I had started with a longer list of possibilities, but I've whittled it down to just N1X and NV10 now. It's a shootout. smile
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/12/19 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

I had started with a longer list of possibilities, but I've whittled it down to just N1X and NV10 now. It's a shootout. smile


Wait much longer and A New Challenger Has Entered the Ring! Then you'll have to weigh the NV-20 against the N2X wink
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/12/19 04:01 PM

Yet another off-topic, deserving its own thread. It was very curious to see how many people bought NV10-s, considering it's among the most expensive digital pianos. MacMacMac is our statistics guy who can do a comparison with other digital piano models but I wouldn't be surprised if NV10 would rank among the top 5 most owned digital pianos in the forum. Supposing I'm not wrong about that, it makes me think how come one of the most expensive digital pianos on the market is so popular? I mean, it's great, no doubt, but how come people are ready to spend so much money on digital pianos? There's some contradiction here. I'm wondering if part of the explanation is peoples' "prejudice" that only if it's expensive it's worth it smile
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/12/19 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Not holding my breath yet but I secretly hope a miracle happened and I may have the piano sooner than expected...


I was pleasantly surprised when my came in a couple weeks earlier than anticipated. Let's hope the same thing happens for you. We'll hold our breath together. smile

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

I'm actually waiting to try one on the piano shop! smile But it seems that people who are ordering sight-unseen such as yourself are getting them before the stores around here.


My dealer told me that actual sales take preeminence over all deliveries. It's like the Obama health care bill (you'll have purchase it before you know what's in it.) smile

God Bless,
David
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/12/19 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Yet another off-topic, deserving its own thread. It was very curious to see how many people bought NV10-s, considering it's among the most expensive digital pianos. MacMacMac is our statistics guy who can do a comparison with other digital piano models but I wouldn't be surprised if NV10 would rank among the top 5 most owned digital pianos in the forum.


Ping JoBert, he's keeping track. I think it was over 40 last time we checked in?

As to why it's popular, maybe partly due to the fact that the AGs were released around the time of the global financial crisis a decade ago, so there wasn't much of an initial seed of a community to form. Whereas the NV10 was released while the world economy is currently doing much better and folks have much more discretionary income? Just a guess.
Posted By: oneilt130

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/12/19 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Yet another off-topic, deserving its own thread. It was very curious to see how many people bought NV10-s, considering it's among the most expensive digital pianos. MacMacMac is our statistics guy who can do a comparison with other digital piano models but I wouldn't be surprised if NV10 would rank among the top 5 most owned digital pianos in the forum. Supposing I'm not wrong about that, it makes me think how come one of the most expensive digital pianos on the market is so popular? I mean, it's great, no doubt, but how come people are ready to spend so much money on digital pianos? There's some contradiction here. I'm wondering if part of the explanation is peoples' "prejudice" that only if it's expensive it's worth it smile


Just offering my own 2 cents but I think it depends upon what you are looking for. In may case I would have been fine with an acoustic piano except that I absolutely needed the headphones option. To accomplish that I had to either go with a upright with a silent system or a hybrid. I didn't want to spend 10K so I went with the NU1X (and am still loving it.) Had the N1X been out I may have considered that. If you are seeking out the experience most like an acoustic grand and wanted a more recent model prior to the N1X being released the only options that I am aware of were the NV10 and N3X. I excluded the NU1X because of the upright action.
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/12/19 04:27 PM

I'm puzzled by this ...
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Yet another off-topic, deserving its own thread. It was very curious to see how many people bought NV10-s, considering it's among the most expensive digital pianos. MacMacMac is our statistics guy who can do a comparison with other digital piano models but I wouldn't be surprised if NV10 would rank among the top 5 most owned digital pianos in the forum. Supposing I'm not wrong about that, it makes me think how come one of the most expensive digital pianos on the market is so popular? I mean, it's great, no doubt, but how come people are ready to spend so much money on digital pianos? There's some contradiction here. I'm wondering if part of the explanation is peoples' "prejudice" that only if it's expensive it's worth it smile
I wonder, as you do, how such an expensive digital could be the most-owned. I really doubt that it is. I'll have to look at the prices paid later today ... but my gut says that the NV10 is nowhere close to most owned.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/12/19 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
It was very curious to see how many people bought NV10-s, considering it's among the most expensive digital pianos.

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I wonder, as you do, how such an expensive digital could be the most-owned. I really doubt that it is. I'll have to look at the prices paid later today ... but my gut says that the NV10 is nowhere close to most owned.

Forum members maybe a self-selecting population. People who are interested not only in playing their instruments but who want to carefully research them and discuss them. Such people may be more likely to spend a larger portion of their discretionary income on an instrument than others.

Consider that from an abstract perspective, many people could afford even an NV10 than actually buy them. But there are always trade offs and so instead of spending $10K on a piano, they pay for other things out of their discretionary funds (vacations, new curtains, home renovation, a new car, etc). By virtue of being active on this forum, it doesn't mean you have more discretionary funds, but it may mean that many have a greater willingness to direct their discretionary funds toward the purchase of an expensive instrument (e.g., rather have a piano than that Winnebago, rather have a piano than visit the Grand Canyon for the 3rd time, etc.) Look at what the OP has done to own a piano - traded in his gun collection! This I think is more common than not for forum participants and this is what I mean by a "self selecting population" here.
Posted By: QuasiUnaFantasia

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/12/19 04:55 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
how come one of the most expensive digital pianos on the market is so popular? I mean, it's great, no doubt, but how come people are ready to spend so much money on digital pianos?


I don't know that there is any clue in this, but when I got onto PW, somewhat before the NV-10 was released, the Digital Pianos forum seemed to me like a Kawai lovefest. Positive feelings for Kawai were oozing from every other thread. And then the NV-10 was announced, and it was the first Kawai contender in the Hybrid class. I think there was so much goodwill towards this product, that it made people willing to pay much more, than they would have paid for a similar product from any other brand.

But I may be entirely wrong about this.
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/12/19 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
Ping JoBert, he's keeping track. I think it was over 40 last time we checked in?

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I really doubt that it is. I'll have to look at the prices paid later today ... but my gut says that the NV10 is nowhere close to most owned.

Sorry for the off topic: The current count of NV10 owners that posted in the NV10 sister thread (since Feb. 2018, i.e. over the last 13 1/2 months) is 43. Of those, to my knowledge 2 no longer own the NV10 (one sold it for a NU1X, one returned it, replacement unknown to me).
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/12/19 06:48 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene

Now, back to N1X, who was the other guy who expected a N1X soon? Was it squidbot? How are things going?


It arrives Thursday morning between 9 and 11 smile They actually had it in the warehouse when I purchased it two weeks ago, but due to my location I had to wait until the delivery service could get to me.
Posted By: BradleyG

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/12/19 09:21 PM

When I was shopping (dec), my dealer told me that the piano they sold the most of by far was the NU1X. The reason being institutional sales- apparently music conservatories buy them in pretty large volume, and replace them often.
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/13/19 01:12 AM

Here is a CFX comparison between the internal N1X CFX and my VSL CFX. They both sound good, but I prefer the VSL CFX. It sounds more rich and clearer to me.

I do prefer the N1X Bosendorfer over the N1X CFX.



God Bless,
David
Posted By: sullivang

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/13/19 01:22 AM

I'm looking forward to hearing this comparison. Just btw, I think prefer the P-515 Bodendorfer to it's CFX, too.

Greg.
Posted By: Dave Ferris

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/13/19 01:54 AM

The Bosendorfer has a softer hue to the tone and sounds less "digital". The CFX is more in your face. Based on this video, I too prefer the Bosendorfer.

If the AG was being used in a group, as opposed to playing solo, the CFX would fare better, with regard to more clarity and a better "cutting through" quality in the ensemble. Although I would guess that would be in the very small percentage of AG user applications.

I recently played both a brand new CFX and 280 VC side by side at Keyboard Concepts in the Valley. The difference was eye/hear opening how big a tonal difference there is between the two. While always having been a Yamaha fan- I've owned two in the past - the CFX wasn't in the same ballpark as the Austrian piano.

Thanks for the video comparison.
Posted By: Jitin

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/13/19 02:02 AM

Originally Posted by David B
Here is a CFX comparison between the internal N1X CFX and my VSL CFX. They both sound good, but I prefer the VSL CFX. It sounds more rich and clearer to me.

I do prefer the N1X Bosendorfer over the N1X CFX.



God Bless,
David

When you play the vst cfx, are you listening to the sound by piano's speakers or the studio monitors?
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/13/19 02:25 AM

Originally Posted by Dave Ferris
The Bosendorfer has a softer hue to the tone and sounds less "digital". The CFX is more in your face. Based on this video, I too prefer the Bosendorfer.


You mean the N1X CFX has a softer hue? The Bosendofer was played in the original post of this thread.

Either way, I agree with your observation.

Quote
If the AG was being used in a group, as opposed to playing solo, the CFX would fare better, with regard to more clarity and a better "cutting through" quality in the ensemble. Although I would guess that would be in the very small percentage of AG user applications.


That's a good point. Thanks for sharing.


I'm really impressed with the N1X Bosendorfer sound (in the original post video). It has a very natural feel to it and is very expressive.

All of these sounds are nice, and coupled with the N1X action, the experience is as close as you can get to an acoustic. I'm very happy with this piano. I remember reading about the great joy NV10 owners had as they anticipated playing their pianos everyday. I remember thinking, "I don't feel that way about playing my MP11SE or any other DP for that matter." Now I know what the NV10 owners are feeling. I look forward to playing the N1X everyday and I'm disappointed when it's time to go to work.

Please excuse my religious expressions, but I just have to "Praise The Lord!" It's hard to believe that I own such a nice instrument.

God Bless,
David

Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/13/19 02:28 AM

Originally Posted by Jitin

When you play the vst cfx, are you listening to the sound by piano's speakers or the studio monitors?


I play everything through both the internal speakers and external monitors. I view the external monitors as supporting the main speaker system of the N1X. I like the combination.

God Bless,
David
Posted By: pianokat123

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/13/19 05:15 AM

Originally Posted by David B
Originally Posted by Dave Ferris
The Bosendorfer has a softer hue to the tone and sounds less "digital". The CFX is more in your face. Based on this video, I too prefer the Bosendorfer.


You mean the N1X CFX has a softer hue? The Bosendofer was played in the original post of this thread.

Either way, I agree with your observation.

Quote
If the AG was being used in a group, as opposed to playing solo, the CFX would fare better, with regard to more clarity and a better "cutting through" quality in the ensemble. Although I would guess that would be in the very small percentage of AG user applications.


That's a good point. Thanks for sharing.


I'm really impressed with the N1X Bosendorfer sound (in the original post video). It has a very natural feel to it and is very expressive.

All of these sounds are nice, and coupled with the N1X action, the experience is as close as you can get to an acoustic. I'm very happy with this piano. I remember reading about the great joy NV10 owners had as they anticipated playing their pianos everyday. I remember thinking, "I don't feel that way about playing my MP11SE or any other DP for that matter." Now I know what the NV10 owners are feeling. I look forward to playing the N1X everyday and I'm disappointed when it's time to go to work.

Please excuse my religious expressions, but I just have to "Praise The Lord!" It's hard to believe that I own such a nice instrument.

God Bless,
David



Thanks for this post David. I ordered my N1X last week and I have to wait until mid to end of April to receive it (I live in Australia). I’m very excited to play it for the first time...!
Posted By: Harpuia

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/13/19 06:03 AM

Originally Posted by David B
Originally Posted by Dave Ferris
The Bosendorfer has a softer hue to the tone and sounds less "digital". The CFX is more in your face. Based on this video, I too prefer the Bosendorfer.


You mean the N1X CFX has a softer hue? The Bosendofer was played in the original post of this thread.

Either way, I agree with your observation.

Quote
If the AG was being used in a group, as opposed to playing solo, the CFX would fare better, with regard to more clarity and a better "cutting through" quality in the ensemble. Although I would guess that would be in the very small percentage of AG user applications.


That's a good point. Thanks for sharing.


I'm really impressed with the N1X Bosendorfer sound (in the original post video). It has a very natural feel to it and is very expressive.

All of these sounds are nice, and coupled with the N1X action, the experience is as close as you can get to an acoustic. I'm very happy with this piano. I remember reading about the great joy NV10 owners had as they anticipated playing their pianos everyday. I remember thinking, "I don't feel that way about playing my MP11SE or any other DP for that matter." Now I know what the NV10 owners are feeling. I look forward to playing the N1X everyday and I'm disappointed when it's time to go to work.

Please excuse my religious expressions, but I just have to "Praise The Lord!" It's hard to believe that I own such a nice instrument.

God Bless,
David



David have you tried the Bösendorfer grand? How does it compare to the Bösendorfer imperial? I believe in your video you are playing using the bösendorfer imperial right?
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/13/19 06:56 AM

Originally Posted by Harpuia

David have you tried the Bösendorfer grand? How does it compare to the Bösendorfer imperial? I believe in your video you are playing using the bösendorfer imperial right?


That's correct. In the first video in this thread I'm playing the Imperial. I haven't done a comparative analysis yet between the Bosendorfer imperial and Bosendorfer Grand. Mostly I've been playing the Imperial and my VSL samples.

God Bless,
David
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/13/19 07:12 AM

While owning the NU1X I thought the Bösendorfer wasn’t as bad as some people previously suggested but I vastly preferred the CFX anyway. That’s through headphones though. The binaural CFX is simply superb. But even playing through speakers I still preferred the CFX. It would be interesting to see whether N1X is different in that regard. It’s 4-channel sampled compared to stereo on the N1UX.
Posted By: sullivang

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/13/19 11:40 AM

The VSL obviously sounds richer, but I like them both. Perhaps the N1X would sound closer to the VSL with a bit more reverb. I liked the VSL more than I expected I would - earlier demos I'd heard sounded too distant for my taste.

Greg.
Posted By: Osho

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/13/19 03:49 PM

A little late to this thread - Congratulations David!! Your piano, and room looks awesome. Very nice setup.

I am really glad to know that the builtin audio card is working well with VSTs - that is one thing that I am hoping will come in NV20!

Thanks,
Osho
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/13/19 04:14 PM

Current status of my order in Thomann changed to "Your order has been commissioned, and the items are being assembled right now!". What the... What does that mean? Hopefully Yamaha will be able to "assemble" my piano soon frown
Posted By: JoeT

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/13/19 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Current status of my order in Thomann changed to "Your order has been commissioned, and the items are being assembled right now!". What the... What does that mean? Hopefully Yamaha will be able to "assemble" my piano soon frown

I bet it's just a funny translation and your items are actually just collected, compiled and assorted right now. laugh
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/13/19 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Current status of my order in Thomann changed to "Your order has been commissioned, and the items are being assembled right now!". What the... What does that mean? Hopefully Yamaha will be able to "assemble" my piano soon frown

It's a translation of the German "Ihre Bestellung wurde kommissioniert und wird gerade zusammengestellt". It means that they are in the process of packing up everything for delivery. The "kommissionieren" and "zusammenstellen" bits essentially mean the same thing: Collect everything that was ordered from storage and assemble it into a delivery package. Of course the wording makes a bit more sense if you ordered more than one item, but I guess it's a bit too complex to have a different boiler plate text for orders with only one item.
So rejoice, it's on its way to you - or will be, very soon. smile
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/13/19 04:58 PM

Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Current status of my order in Thomann changed to "Your order has been commissioned, and the items are being assembled right now!". What the... What does that mean? Hopefully Yamaha will be able to "assemble" my piano soon frown

It's a translation of the German "Ihre Bestellung wurde kommissioniert und wird gerade zusammengestellt". It means that they are in the process of packing up everything for delivery. The "kommissionieren" and "zusammenstellen" bits essentially mean the same thing: Collect everything that was ordered from storage and assemble it into a delivery package. Of course the wording makes a bit more sense if you ordered more than one item, but I guess it's a bit too complex to have a different boiler plate text for orders with only one item.
So rejoice, it's on its way to you - or will be, very soon. smile

Wow, thank you! That's a nice surprise, I thought it meant something entirely different! smile
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/13/19 05:14 PM

JoBert: I emailed Thomann, and they've updated the order to say: Ihre Bestellung wurde ausgewählt und an MacMacMac gesendet
Thanks for the nice piano! smile
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/14/19 04:22 PM

My N1X was shipped today. Should arrive in about 7-8 days smile
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/14/19 05:56 PM

So, they finally got to “assembling” it after all!
Looking forward to your take on the N1X; especially as it compares to the NU1X. Thank you in advance smile
Posted By: HwyStar

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/14/19 06:02 PM

I will be interested when you set the piano up in your room Gene if you think the CFX is lacking a little bit in the bass department compared to the Imperial when using the onboard speakers. You can clearly hear the difference in David's recording. I did ask David on being able to EQ the CFX up some in the bass, but I guess those piano's do not have EQ built in. And, it appears that the Smart Pianist also does not allow the editing of the EQ.

Do you think, that the placement of the piano in specific places in a room will enhance the CFX sound? Like a corner of the room?
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/14/19 06:17 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
My N1X was shipped today. Should arrive in about 7-8 days smile


Wonderful!

The countdown begins.

God Bless,
David
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/14/19 06:22 PM

Huzzah! Movers left about an hour ago. Had to play with it before I posted smile

[Linked Image]

Gallery: http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2826781/squidbot-n1x.html#Post2826781
Posted By: JoeT

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/14/19 06:25 PM

Congratulations @squidbot, this corner was made for this hybrid piano!
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/14/19 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by squidbot
Huzzah! Movers left about an hour ago. Had to play with it before I posted smile

[Linked Image]

Gallery: http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2826781/squidbot-n1x.html#Post2826781


Beautiful!
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/14/19 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by squidbot
Huzzah! Movers left about an hour ago. Had to play with it before I posted smile


Cool!

Nice pics of the movers and the assembly process in the photo gallery. Even the professionals used a wheel cart. I wouldn't try moving it without that or a dolly.

You're going to love this instrument.

God Bless,
David
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/14/19 07:27 PM

Squidbot, congrats! Nice pictures and that corner is indeed perfect and looks very cozy. It cries: please play me! smile
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/15/19 12:50 AM

Some initial thoughts, mostly to do with ergonomics and comparing to the CLP-685

- OMG as a tall person, the music rest being on top of the instrument is a HUGE win. I had jury-rigged a solution that never worked very well on the CLP-685 where the music rest is just above the keyboard as it's more "console like" and was actually suffering a lot of posture issues while playing because I was hunching over to see my music.

- Having the headphone jacks and a USB port easily reachable is a welcome design decision. The most frequent accessory I plug/unplug are headphones. On the CLP-685 you had to reach under the keyboard and plug them in upwards as they faced the floor. You either got on your hands and knees or did it by feel. It's nice having a headphone jack in easy reach and visible. This is true for the USB port as well, which I use to plug in a memory stick. It's handy to have it more accessible. On the CLP-685 it's on the bottom panel of the instrument and required getting under the unit to plug in. Also, more than once I hit the stick with my knee and dislodged it.

- Another change is where they put the midi interfaces and the "to computer" USB interface and aux in/out on the bottom left of the piano. This is a much better placement for where you'll likely have computer and other audio equipment, and is also less likely to be hit by your knee.

- I have a volume knob! I don't know why, but I really hate volume sliders. I much prefer knobs. I was jealous of the LX-700's with their nice big shiny knobs. Anyway, I this is another welcome change. The Roland's still have by far the best UI of any of the DP's but I can live with the new controls on the Yamaha.

- Speaking of controls, I will say, the control panel on the CLP-685 was nicer. I could do all the operations from the control panel through easy to use menus. Most of the options on the NX1 need to be controlled with combinations of button presses and keyboard presses which is what my ES110 does! And it's just three SSD's to do all the status display. It honestly seems a little cheap... I'm guessing the NX2 when it comes out will have something more similar to the CLP-685 with its LCD panel. I do like that the 3 SSD's turn completely off once you've made your selection, so the only visible light that after you turn the unit on is on is a small red LED on the headphone jack/volume panel. I guess I finally have a reason to get the Smart Pianist app.

- The Bosendorfer sounds are much better than what was on the CLP-685. I'm finding the CFX to be pretty much the same (which is great, I really like it, especially on headphones with the binaural mode.) I'm glad as the Bosendorfer on the CLP-685 was a real disappointment. I think I read the David B was fond of the "Bosendorfer Grand", I actually prefer the "Bosendorfer Imperial", which is preset 2. I don't know what the difference is as the CLP-685 was also supposed to be an Imperial, but it seems like a vast improvement on the N1X.

- I don't think I'll miss all the extra sounds on the CLP-685, I pretty much used only the piano. I will occasionally switch to one of the pipe organs or the harpsichords for novelty, but those were brought to this instrument. My wife will certainly not miss the drums, barking dogs and explosions my son liked to play with smile

- I definitely like the pedal more than the CLP-685. I'd mentioned this earlier from my experience in the store, it's firmer and feels more like the C7 we typically play for recitals. the CLP-685 was a bit of a "limp fish."

- In general the instrument is just a joy to play. I'm looking forward to some more time with it this evening. While the CLP-685 was definitely strengthening my ability to play other pianos, and took a fair amount of effort to control, especially soft passages and trills, the N1X is responsive and, well actually feels like a grand action, because it is. I'm bummed I have to leave Saturday and won't have the weekend to play with it (not next weekend either, I'll be working GDC till next Saturday...)

- Wishing I was a more accomplished pianist to give you a better review on how it plays. I'll come back to you in 10 years with a report! Actually, my teacher expressed interest in checking it out, I'll ask if I can video him playing it and talking about it when he comes over.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/15/19 01:20 AM

Originally Posted by squidbot
I'm guessing the NX2 when it comes out will have something more similar to the CLP-685 with its LCD panel.


I'm not too sure about that. Look at the N3X, which keeps the N2/N3 sliding control panel. I think Yamaha is trying very hard to keep the AG as "acoustic-like" as possible, which means a minimal UI. The N1/N1X shares the old NU1 control panel interface, which is REALLY basic. I definitely think it could be improved upon, but the product is probably targeted to people who want to just turn it on and play piano, rather than futz around with a ton of settings.
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/15/19 01:34 AM

Originally Posted by squidbot
I think I read the David B was fond of the "Bosendorfer Grand", I actually prefer the "Bosendorfer Imperial", which is preset 2.


I'm really impressed with the Bosendorfer Imperial (preset #2). I'm actually finding myself playing it more than my VSL samples.
It has a very authentic sound and feel to it.

I haven't really played the Bosendorfer Grand (preset #4) for very long. I'm enjoying the Imperial too much.

This is such a great instrument. It inspires me to play more.

God Bless,
David
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/15/19 03:21 AM

Here’s a dumb question. What is the purpose of the cloth key cover? It came with it in the box, a red cover you can lay over the keys. Why wouldn’t I just shut the fallboard? I’m not sure what to do with it.
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/15/19 03:29 AM

Originally Posted by squidbot
Here’s a dumb question. What is the purpose of the cloth key cover? It came with it in the box, a red cover you can lay over the keys. Why wouldn’t I just shut the fallboard? I’m not sure what to do with it.


I was using mine at first and then I noticed some red fibers being left behind on the keys so I decided to shelve it.

God Bless,
David
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/15/19 03:35 AM

Speaking of covers.

The polished ebony seems to magnify every particle of dust that rests on the piano. It's amazing how much dust is in my basement.

I purchased this microfiber towel from Amazon that works very well as a cover for the N1X. It's very soft and the piano gets dusted by virtue of covering and uncovering it.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B075DD6DT9/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I would highly recommend it.

[Linked Image]

God Bless,
David
Posted By: navindra

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/15/19 03:50 AM

Originally Posted by David B
Originally Posted by squidbot
Here’s a dumb question. What is the purpose of the cloth key cover? It came with it in the box, a red cover you can lay over the keys. Why wouldn’t I just shut the fallboard? I’m not sure what to do with it.


I was using mine at first and then I noticed some red fibers being left behind on the keys so I decided to shelve it.

God Bless,
David


Exact same experience on the NV10. I had meant to ask this myself. Conceivably on the Novus, you could use the red felt to replace the default black felt on the keys? 🤷🏽‍♂️
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/15/19 09:38 AM

It’s meant to be placed over the keys, yes, but it’s not for any kind of protection. It’s simply a symbolic gesture meant to evoke the so-called ‘red carpet unveiling.’ This phenomena makes the player feel like every sit-down at the piano is a happening, an event, an encore, an award........
I think Yamaha and Kawai might’ve gone a bit too far on this one (red carpet).
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/15/19 09:55 AM

This is a traditional acoustic piano treatment, isn't it? I've seen the red felt cover come on various grands and uprights. I still use mine, it makes for a nice little ritual (I place it on top of the piano and then put my phone on it so I can see my notifications and the time while I play).
Posted By: tudor33sud

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/15/19 10:04 AM

Congratulations for your new pianos! laugh they are quite charming, and I was curious, can some of the owners give us some insights about how the default speakers sound ? Do they have enough bass, enough projection etc? I tried an avantgrand N3 (not the X model) and sounded pretty convincing, however people say that N1/N2 envelop the player better. I just wonder whether we are close to the time where you would mistake a digital for an acoustic for like 80% laugh

I think I'll never be able to afford and maintain an acoustic grand, so I'd like to think about what things are coming and if we are there to be happy enough with a hybrid instrument both in terms of touch and sound. Thank you and enjoy your new pianos smile
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/15/19 10:05 AM

On my mom's upright piano (which I grew up playing on) the hinges wouldn't hold the note rest tight, so when you close the fall-board the note rest would open and scratch against the keys. Which is why I was taught I must use the felt cover.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/15/19 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
On my mom's upright piano (which I grew up playing on) the hinges wouldn't hold the note rest tight, so when you close the fall-board the note rest would open and scratch against the keys. Which is why I was taught I must use the felt cover.


That's a really good point. More than half the U3s I've seen have that happen and it irks me every time I close the fallboard. Why not have some kind of lock/latch so it doesn't bang on the keys when it drops??

But even grands without fallboard-rests traditionally come with covers. And it's not always red, doesn't Grotrian have a green or grey dust cover?
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/15/19 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by CyberGene
On my mom's upright piano (which I grew up playing on) the hinges wouldn't hold the note rest tight, so when you close the fall-board the note rest would open and scratch against the keys. Which is why I was taught I must use the felt cover.


That's a really good point. More than half the U3s I've seen have that happen and it irks me every time I close the fallboard. Why not have some kind of lock/latch so it doesn't bang on the keys when it drops??

On the NU1X there was a very odd solution to that problem, however I don't have pictures to show it and not sure if I can describe it with words. Basically there was a small pin on the note rest (or on the fallboard, don't remember) and a corresponding hole on the fallboard this pin slide in, that create friction and holds the note rest closed. I had mixed feelings about that because the friction was too high to open/close the note rest, and the pin itself was kind of making it look non-symmetrical and touching the scores.
Posted By: JoeT

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/15/19 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
On my mom's upright piano (which I grew up playing on) the hinges wouldn't hold the note rest tight, so when you close the fall-board the note rest would open and scratch against the keys. Which is why I was taught I must use the felt cover.

This can be fixed by squeezing the hinges a bit with pliers. After that the music rest stays up.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/15/19 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene

On the NU1X there was a very odd solution to that problem, however I don't have pictures to show it and not sure if I can describe it with words. Basically there was a small pin on the note rest (or on the fallboard, don't remember) and a corresponding hole on the fallboard this pin slide in, that create friction and holds the note rest closed. I had mixed feelings about that because the friction was too high to open/close the note rest, and the pin itself was kind of making it look non-symmetrical and touching the scores.


Yep, I've seen that on the NU1, and I believe the U3s have them as well. The problem is that this doesn't solve the problem. If the music rest becomes so loose that it flops down when closing the fallboard, the pin will likely not hold it up (it will have lost its friction just as the hinge has).
Posted By: oneilt130

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/15/19 06:48 PM

I learn something new here everyday. Now I know that the strip of red felt is for.

Thanks.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/15/19 08:58 PM

So it turns out that the red cloth-like artifact is not symbolic, after all?
Can it double as a scarf if the circumstances demand it? grin
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/15/19 11:53 PM

Originally Posted by David B
The polished ebony seems to magnify every particle of dust that rests on the piano.


You weren't kidding.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/16/19 09:48 PM

I wonder if the N1X would look good in satin black?
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/19/19 06:29 PM

Are we done here?
You know, the Novus ‘Hands on’ thread is at almost 3,000 posts, right?
So let’s get busy and start digging up issues and non-issues, quirks and idiosyncrasies, buzzes and hisses, pivot lengths and associated perceptions!
I’ve heard that the bass is somewhat lacking in the N1X; especially as it compares to the Novus.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/19/19 06:31 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14
Are we done here?
You know, the Novus ‘Hands on’ thread is at almost 3,000 posts, right?
So let’s get busy and start digging up issues and non-issues, quirks and idiosyncrasies, buzzes and hisses, pivot lengths and associated perceptions!
I’ve heard that the bass is somewhat lacking in the N1X; especially as it compares to the Novus.

If this thread stays short in the future, I would consider it a good thing based on the contents of that Novus thread! laugh
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/19/19 08:53 PM

I’m out of state at a trade show this week so not playing with my instrument, just wishing I was. I plan on digging in when I get home. Maybe even get brave enough to take off a panel to see the action.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/19/19 08:58 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
If this thread stays short in the future, I would consider it a good thing based on the contents of that Novus thread! laugh


Lol, it would seem that way. But many of us are still over the moon with the NV-10, I know I am, despite having multiple bug reports sent to (and acted upon by) Kawai.

I'm sure the enjoyment will be the same with the N1X, and of course it would be very nice if you AG owners don't have to deal with the various growing pains of a new model/category/UI like some of your hybrid brethren have wink

All you N1X owners, keep those impressions, reviews and videos coming!
Posted By: JoeT

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/19/19 09:18 PM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
I'm sure the enjoyment will be the same with the N1X, and of course it would be very nice if you AG owners don't have to deal with the various growing pains of a new model/category/UI like some of your hybrid brethren have wink

At least the user interface of the AvantGrand N1X series is the exact opposite of the Novus NV-10:

[Linked Image]

Remember this?

[img]https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-LUmC-pjm6sw/U_-fdg914iI/AAAAAAAADqA/tkBlfGKbkyY/s1600/401_075.bmp[/img]

Welcome to the 1980s! laugh
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/19/19 10:15 PM

Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Gombessa
I'm sure the enjoyment will be the same with the N1X, and of course it would be very nice if you AG owners don't have to deal with the various growing pains of a new model/category/UI like some of your hybrid brethren have wink

At least the user interface of the AvantGrand N1X series is the exact opposite of the Novus NV-10...

Hardware and production theetings problems are somewhat expected on a new model. But developing flawed software to drive a basic GUI is not. The thing is that the Kawai GUI could be an impressive product differentiator... however, for that to happen Kawai needs to improve and revise it - and the improvements are not about "bug" corrections, but very deep changes to the overall UI design and functionality (rethinking the design and then developing a new GUI from scratch would be a good starting point). The problem is that the UI limitations are not even being acknowledged. So, if Kawai keeps this "you are holding it wrong" attitude, the GUI will be nothing else but a missed opportunity that will fail to show its potential superiority over archaic interfaces like the one on the N1X (that can be paired to an app btw).
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/19/19 11:10 PM

Originally Posted by JoeT
Welcome to the 1980s! laugh


On the plus side, when you start playing, the SSD's go completely black, not "backlit black." This has been a complaint about the NV10, and I suspect as this instrument is really geared to acoustic players, is a nod to that.

I will miss being able to easily make changes to the tone like I could with the CLP-685, but as noted, I can do it on my phone (though not through bluetooth, which is annoying, I need either a cable or wifi adapter.)
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/19/19 11:16 PM

Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Gombessa
I'm sure the enjoyment will be the same with the N1X, and of course it would be very nice if you AG owners don't have to deal with the various growing pains of a new model/category/UI like some of your hybrid brethren have wink

At least the user interface of the AvantGrand N1X series is the exact opposite of the Novus NV-10:

Remember this?

Welcome to the 1980s! laugh

I believe the idea is that a real GUI for the N1X is being provided via a phone/tablet interface.

Originally Posted by squidbot
I will miss being able to easily make changes to the tone like I could with the CLP-685, but as noted, I can do it on my phone (though not through bluetooth, which is annoying, I need either a cable or wifi adapter.)

Are you saying that the N1X does not support bluetooth connection to a phone/tablet? I thought that's what was added in the N1X over the N1.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/19/19 11:18 PM

Originally Posted by JoeT

Welcome to the 1980s! laugh


Oh, I see that nearly every day smile

[Linked Image]
Posted By: oneilt130

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/19/19 11:34 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
[quote=Gombessa]
Are you saying that the N1X does not support bluetooth connection to a phone/tablet? I thought that's what was added in the N1X over the N1.


This is the one thing I found annoying about the NU1X, the need to get a separate Wi-Fi adapter. Anything designed and built in the last few years should have all wireless connectivity built in. If some markets prohibit it the. available at a low price.
Posted By: oneilt130

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/19/19 11:42 PM

Speaking for the NU1X I think the interface is fine and I like the minimalist approach. Of course I pretty much just turn it on an start playing. I rarely change the settings and if its more than the piano voice or reverb I use the app. I think the Avante Grand series is geared towards those who treat it more like an acoustic piano with headphones.
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/20/19 05:37 AM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Are you saying that the N1X does not support bluetooth connection to a phone/tablet? I thought that's what was added in the N1X over the N1.


Though it supports a bluetooth connection, it's only for audio playback from a device over the piano. There's no bluetooth midi support (and I could be wrong, but I don't think any Yamaha DP's support bluetooth midi yet.) So honestly, IMHO, the bluetooth support is pretty useless. I connected my phone to my CLP-685 a couple of times for novelty, but it really serves no purpose for me to listen to music through my piano speakers.

This pdf covers the way you can connect to a "smart device": https://usa.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/6/725646/iphone_ipad_connect_en_om_j0.pdf

There were other additions from the N1 however, the modern sound engine and the USB audio interface not the least among them.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/20/19 07:16 AM

TBH, I never bothered playing around with the menu on my NU1X, I rarely even changed voices. I simply turned on the piano and played. And BTW the reverb button has a LED next to it which is lit by default and I would have preferred if nothing was visible there. While I can certainly understand how a fancy touchscreen interface is the norm nowadays and I agree with that, I would personally prefer even more concealed approach as on the N3X where the panel is hidden beneath the piano. These are premium pianos meant to replace a grand piano and I don’t see them needing any complicated interface at all. The less, the better IMO.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/20/19 09:52 AM

My N1X will be delivered in an hour. I am working from home today since my daughter is sick, but that means I'll be too busy at home to find some time for the piano frown Well, I hope I'll find a few minutes when the project I work on recompiles and can do a brief encounter with the piano.
Posted By: ShyPianist

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/20/19 09:55 AM

Screen breaks are a must ;-)
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/20/19 10:37 AM

Solution: One hand on each keyboard - computer and piano...
Posted By: akc42

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/20/19 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by Pete14
I’ve heard that the bass is somewhat lacking in the N1X; especially as it compares to the Novus.


I've tried both and reported about it elsewhere, but to summarize

1) When I play the Novus, I can feel the music in my body just like when I play an acoustic upright that is at my daughters house. I think it is because of the woofer down by the pedals. I don't get that feeling with the N1X
2) The N1X sound has a "clarity" (I can't think of a better term and its very subjective) to it over the Novus that I rather like.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/20/19 11:19 AM

You guys, we’re doing great! At this rate we’ll catch up with the Novus thread very soon.

Of pivots, hammers, and sensors, do we truly have a consensus? Discuss amongst, but do not by any means project, simplify, nor quantify; for as we all know, imagination is more important than knowledge. I’d rather imagine that a hybrid is an acoustic than know that, well, it is not.

If you try to make sense of the above, you, my friend, should carry on....carry on... as if nothing really matters.......Mama! cool
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/20/19 12:55 PM

[Linked Image]

Can’t say much now frown Played it for 30 seconds. I haven’t played a piano for almost a month but initial impression is it’s definitely better than NU1X as a keyboard feel, more substantial and a bit heavier in regards to dynamic weight. The bass is exactly as I like it: clean and not boomy. Will write more when I have at least a few more minutes alone with it frown
Posted By: Morodiene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/20/19 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
[Linked Image]

Can’t say much now frown Played it for 30 seconds. I haven’t played a piano for almost a month but initial impression is it’s definitely better than NU1X as a keyboard feel, more substantial and a bit heavier in regards to dynamic weight. The bass is exactly as I like it: clean and not boomy. Will write more when I have at least a few more minutes alone with it frown

I would not be able to resist. Maybe it should be a "sick" day for you too laugh
Posted By: JoeT

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/20/19 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by squidbot
midi support (and I could be wrong, but I don't think any Yamaha DP's support bluetooth midi yet.) So honestly, IMHO, the bluetooth support is pretty useless.

Isn't at least the MD-BT01 Bluetooth MIDI adapter available?

Or does it not work?
Posted By: percy64

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/20/19 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14

I’ve heard that the bass is somewhat lacking in the N1X; especially as it compares to the Novus.

Using the speakers I was a bit disappointed with the sound of both of them. Given the price you are paying, and that the Novus makes a point of the Onkyo hook up I expected better. I would say in that respect they were both inferior to my old Clavinova.

Through headphones the N1X on CFX is definitely superior.

I didn't notice that the bass was particularly different between the two. The Yamaha CFX sound is noticably brighter in the treble, and I prefered the Bosendorfer sounds in the N1X - but they don't have the clever sampling for headphones.

I am keen to hear more feedback from others who have tried both. I intend to buy one can't decide which. I am not an expert pianist but I didn't like the N1X action as much as the Novus. On the otherhand in almost every respect I prefer the N1X
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/20/19 02:31 PM

I had a few more minutes, played both through speakers and through headphones.

Through speakers I played only the CFX. The bass is deep and powerful. I really don't see how one can find it "lacking". I would go as far as to say it's approaching the upper limit of my taste, above that it would be boomy. Mind you I am not a bass-head. But a piano is a piano, there's no "the more the better" when speaking about an acoustic instrument which has what is a proper bass and what is not. Honestly, can't see what the fuss is about. And to put some comparison in the picture, I've always found Kawai bass unnaturally boomy. I haven't played a NV10, however I've played a CA78 and it was hip-hop level boomy. But each to their own.

Through headphones, I briefly went through all voices. As I expected, CFX binaural is awesome. I think it might actually be a bit cleaner and brighter than what used to be on the NU1X but my memory is fading already, so might be wrong. However it seems the headphone amplifier is weaker. I plugged my 300 Ohm HD-650-s and I had to put the knob at the max position which wasn't the case with NU1X where there was some headroom. At MAX position on the N1X the volume is just enough for me, however other people might not be OK. But we're speaking about a 300 Ohm pair, so it's already a corner case.

All other piano voices sound kind of nasal through headphones which has already been discussed. I remember that was also the case with NU1X. However Bosendorfer was great through speakers on the NU1X. It's something related to how the pianos were sampled, probably related to the multichannel sampling and how that's mixed down to stereo.

The keyboard is very responsive, I can finally play trills near the bottom, there are no loud note issues smile And there are no irregular keys/sensors. So far all is simply great. I can't wait having more time to start practicing and restoring my technique which after a month is quite bad. I might try recording something tonight but I don't want to embarrass myself on the other hand laugh
Posted By: johnstaf

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/20/19 02:39 PM

Indeed. Past a certain point, the more pronounced the bass, the less like a concert grand it sounds. The CFX and SK-EX have anything but boomy bass.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/20/19 02:45 PM

CyberGene, you seemed to have loved the NU1X dearly; especially as it related to the sound propagation, and how convincing the overall experience was.
Do you feel that the N1X surpasses this in some respects, or in all respects?

Regarding the bass, the N1X uses one subwoofer facing the wall; whereas, the N2 uses two subwoofers facing the player (under the keybed). I remember the bass being somewhat “weak” on the N2, but I wonder if the placement (low/front) had something to do with that.
I also wonder if there really is any need for two subwoofers instead of one placed optimally (left-most side); after all, left is where the bass should be coming from, isn’t it?
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/20/19 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14
Regarding the bass, the N1X uses one subwoofer facing the wall; whereas, the N2 uses two subwoofers facing the player (under the keybed). I remember the bass being somewhat “weak” on the N2, but I wonder if the placement (low/front) had something to do with that.
I also wonder if there really is any need for two subwoofers instead of one placed optimally (left-most side); after all, left is where the bass should be coming from, isn’t it?


You're not quite right. The subwoofer on the N1X is facing the floor and is on the left side of the piano along with the bass port:
[Linked Image]

Also, while assembling the piano, there was a rear grill I had to remove temporarily and there was a speaker facing the wall but I'm not sure it's a subwoofer.

Also on the back of the piano near the top there are two small grills which I would assume are tweeters. There are also three elongated grills on top. And finally there are two speakers facing the player behind the cloth (in the picture above), facing the player but slightly angled towards the floor.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/20/19 03:11 PM

P.S.

Originally Posted by Pete14
you seemed to have loved the NU1X dearly; especially as it related to the sound propagation, and how convincing the overall experience was.
Do you feel that the N1X surpasses this in some respects, or in all respects?

TBH I played mostly at night and on headphones, however you're right I also loved how it sounded in those cases I played through speakers. But my memory is fading and I can't really say I can compare them. If I had to say something based on just a few minutes of playing through speakers today, I would say the N1X has slightly more powerful bass and the sound projects from everywhere, better than NU1X, although NU1X wasn't bad in that respect either. The improvement can also be due to the multichannel sampling though (only stereo on NU1X). I just tested the two Bosendorfers briefly on speakers (patch 2 and patch 4) and they are both wonderful through speakers! The second Bosendorfer patch is a new one, especially for N1X and it has even more clarity and brightness compared to the first one, however both are clear and would be of use depending on the reportoire, the first one for dark romantic pieces and the second one more open. What I can certainly say though is through headphones it's only the binaural CFX that works. The rest is very nasal.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/20/19 03:30 PM

Thank you, CyberGene.
I saw a picture of the N1X with the speaker facing towards the wall exposed, and I assumed this was the subwoofer. Still, it seems that 6 speakers facing in many directions should be fine, and of course, there’s always the possibility to add monitors to suit individual needs. David added some monitors, and I must say the setup still looks very nice and clean (no dangling cables, etc.)
Posted By: percy64

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/20/19 04:00 PM

I also noticed the N1X was very quiet when played through the headphones - the same ones that I use on the Clavinova were too quiet for practical use on the N1X which is another minor frustration. Other than the CFX I thought the voices were a bit thin and monaural through the headphones - again compared with the Clavinova.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/20/19 05:31 PM

A slight correction regarding speakers. There’s no left front speaker on the underside of the keyboard. It’s the subwoofer there which is floor facing. So, we can assume the speaker placement, number and size are the following (from specs):

- Three 8 cm tweeters on top (left, center, right), facing the ceiling
- A 13 cm center rear speaker facing rear wall, in the speaker box beneath the keyboard.
- A 13 cm right front speaker facing the player and very slightly inclined towards the floor, in the speaker box beneath the keyboard
- A 16 cm subwoofer facing the floor, with bass port, on the left side of the speaker box beneath the keyboard.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/20/19 05:32 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
A slight correction regarding speakers. There’s no left front speaker on the underside of the keyboard. It’s the subwoofer there which is floor facing. So, we can assume the speaker placement, number and size are the following (from specs):

- Three 8 cm tweeters on top
- A 13 cm center rear speaker facing rear wall
- A 13 cm right front speaker facing the player and very slightly inclined towards the floor
- A 16 cm subwoofer with bass port facing the floor and on the left side of the speaker box beneath the keyboard.

CyberGene, how do you think the overall sound compares when using speakers between the N1X and the NU1X? My impression from reading on this forum was that the NU1X speaker placement was close to optimal, and that speaker placement might be a slight weakness for the N1 (but maybe not for N1X).
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/20/19 05:38 PM

Tyrone, that’s hard to answer, but I tried to answer that in another post above, answering to Pete, check it out.
Posted By: Harpuia

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/20/19 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
A slight correction regarding speakers. There’s no left front speaker on the underside of the keyboard. It’s the subwoofer there which is floor facing. So, we can assume the speaker placement, number and size are the following (from specs):

- Three 8 cm tweeters on top (left, center, right), facing the ceiling
- A 13 cm center rear speaker facing rear wall, in the speaker box beneath the keyboard.
- A 13 cm right front speaker facing the player and very slightly inclined towards the floor, in the speaker box beneath the keyboard
- A 16 cm subwoofer facing the floor, with bass port, on the left side of the speaker box beneath the keyboard.


How does the N1X speaker compared to N1? I only tried N1 and the bass is underwhelming. I don't mean it is weak like a small upright. What I mean is it sounds like playing a recording using a cheap woofer. I remember the speaker sound from N1 is like coming from a box but not from a real piano. Not sure if it is improved in the N1X.
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/20/19 06:49 PM

Originally Posted by Harpuia
How does the N1X speaker compared to N1? I only tried N1 and the bass is underwhelming. I don't mean it is weak like a small upright. What I mean is it sounds like playing a recording using a cheap woofer. I remember the speaker sound from N1 is like coming from a box but not from a real piano. Not sure if it is improved in the N1X.

Which DPs have you tested that remotely sound like a real piano? The DPs on the market either have a strong but boomy/muddy bass, sound like a not that good hi-fi system or simply have inadequate speakers. So, in the best case scenario you will find a DP with acceptable speakers and ampliification but that will be far from delivering a realistic sound.
Posted By: oneilt130

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/20/19 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
[Linked Image]

Can’t say much now frown Played it for 30 seconds. I haven’t played a piano for almost a month but initial impression is it’s definitely better than NU1X as a keyboard feel, more substantial and a bit heavier in regards to dynamic weight. The bass is exactly as I like it: clean and not boomy. Will write more when I have at least a few more minutes alone with it frown



Ok, seeing how many DP's have occupied that space I think its time for a photo montage showing your DP progression. wink

Seriously looks great!
Posted By: JoeT

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/20/19 06:56 PM

Originally Posted by oneilt130
Ok, seeing how many DP's have occupied that space I think its time for a photo montage showing your DP progression. wink

Yeah, couldn't take that long to the silent baby grand now. wink
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/20/19 07:00 PM

Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by oneilt130
Ok, seeing how many DP's have occupied that space I think its time for a photo montage showing your DP progression. wink

Yeah, couldn't take that long to the silent baby grand now. wink

I guess cybergenes’s DIY hybrid controller will come first ;-)
Posted By: oneilt130

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/20/19 07:02 PM

Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by oneilt130
Ok, seeing how many DP's have occupied that space I think its time for a photo montage showing your DP progression. wink

Yeah, couldn't take that long to the silent baby grand now. wink


Let's see, he had the NU1X for a little under a month now the N1X while taking into account the coefficient of moving up multiple flights of stairs... I would estimate 264 days give or take a week. smile
Posted By: JoeT

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/20/19 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by arc7urus
I guess cybergenes’s DIY hybrid controller will come first ;-)

Didn't that become pretty pointless now?
Posted By: jeffscot

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/20/19 07:49 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
[Linked Image]

Can’t say much now frown Played it for 30 seconds. I haven’t played a piano for almost a month but initial impression is it’s definitely better than NU1X as a keyboard feel, more substantial and a bit heavier in regards to dynamic weight. The bass is exactly as I like it: clean and not boomy. Will write more when I have at least a few more minutes alone with it frown

Looks nice CyberGene!
David B seemed to think the N1X needed to be placed a couple feet away from the wall to benefit the rear speaker sound.

This thread has me wanting to get the N1X. crazy
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/20/19 08:42 PM

I've had about 40 minutes to play at the early evening, mostly on speakers this time, then on headphones.

I can certainly say this piano is a step up from NU1X in every respect, except for looks. I preferred the upright style which looked like a real piano. This monster now is some rather ugly Quasimodo, but the wife says it look much better. Women know better.

Keyboard feel is better. Controlling notes is better. Soft trills are so easy now! I don't have to think how I play to avoid loud note issue, etc.

Sound from speakers is definitely better! It comes from everywhere. Bosendorfer definitely sounds somehow brighter than the CFX! This is entirely new experience. In the NU1X and Clavinovas, it sounded dull and dark. Not anymore. But I still prefer the CFX.

The piano is simply perfect and I can't find any problem with it as of now. Rest assured, I won't upgrade it soon. Whereas on the NU1X I tried to heroically cope with the loud note issue and then some key sensor irregularities and that was too much. I am yet to think of anything that I don't like about N1X. Man, I love it!!!

As to my DIY controller. It's something entirely different. It's for me to prove to myself (and to the (piano)world) that a hybrid controller can be made (relatively) easily and cheaply by a guy who didn't know much about electronics and grand piano actions. And even that such a controller would still be able to compete with the big boys to some degree. I am determined to prove that and I will finish it smile
Posted By: HwyStar

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/20/19 08:56 PM

Excellent news Gene! We are all eager to hear you play your new date!

I need to go online and by some Beano from Amazon... to be used for the gas I am experiencing currently.

I created a post on the Cunningham Piano YouTube N1 page asking if they could play the N3X vs the N1X side by side and using microphones. That would be very interesting to hear.
Posted By: JoeT

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/20/19 08:57 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
The piano is simply perfect and I can't find any problem with it as of now. Rest assured, I won't upgrade it soon. Whereas on the NU1X I tried to heroically cope with the loud note issue and then some key sensor irregularities and that was too much. I am yet to think of anything that I don't like about N1X. Man, I love it!!!

Awesome, enjoy your honeymoon! laugh
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/20/19 09:06 PM

I wanted to show off but as I said my technique is terrible right now frown So, recorded the Naima theme, short and simple:
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/20/19 09:48 PM

Beautiful song, Gene.

So glad you're happy with your N1X.

Women often do have a better sense of aesthetics than men. At least that's what my wife tells me.

It looks great and sounds great.

God Bless,
David
Posted By: TomLC

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/20/19 10:01 PM

Sounds great, Gene. Nice playing. Looks like the search is over.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/20/19 10:08 PM

CyberGene, I have to say that I prefer this beast -aesthetically- over the NU1X.
Yes, the NU1X looks almost exactly like an upright, but it’s narrower (depth) than even the smallest upright. The one thing I like about the beast is its depth; not even the N2 comes close to it.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/20/19 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14
CyberGene, I have to say that I prefer this beast -aesthetically- over the NU1X.
Yes, the NU1X looks almost exactly like an upright, but it’s narrower (depth) than even the smallest upright. The one thing I like about the beast is its depth; not even the N2 comes close to it.

I never could understand why the form factor of an upright is even something to aspire to. If pianos had never exist, and industrial designers in 2019 were to get out a fresh sheet of paper to design a new sort of musical instrument which hammers strings, would it look like an upright?! I just posted this to the piano forum:

Well, I don't know about j&j, but personally, I dislike the look of upright pianos. They all look to me like they belong in a saloon in the Old West, maybe with a piano roll running though it. (No disrespect to owners of uprights intended!)



Frankly, I don't know why here in the 21st century, they can't design a piano that is a bit sleeker and trimmer.... (oh wait! they have! it's called a "digital!" laugh )
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/20/19 10:42 PM

Well, I’ve grown playing an upright. Maybe I’m too used to that shape smile My mother in law also commented how the N1X looks much better than NU1X. So apparently it’s just me. But frankly, I don’t care, I love the sound so much, I would play it even if it looked like cr*p!
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/21/19 07:33 AM

Congratulations Gene! Glad you’re so happy with it. Thanks for the video is was a very nice piece.

Selfishly, I’m glad you got one as I suspect now I don’t have to figure out how to take bits off to expose the innards as I would bet you’ll succumb to temptation to see what Yamaha did in there and take plenty of pictures smile
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/21/19 07:37 AM

Originally Posted by squidbot
Selfishly, I’m glad you got one as I suspect now I don’t have to figure out how to take bits off to expose the innards as I would bet you’ll succumb to temptation to see what Yamaha did in there and take plenty of pictures smile

thumb thumb
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/21/19 08:52 AM

We’ll see about pictures smile

I think I’ve done enough playing on the N1X to confirm I really prefer it over the NU1X. The main reason being I can’t hear a directly exposed speaker towards me. Instead there’s a soft sound radiating as though coming from within the piano, exactly like playing a real grand. Not sure if you noticed but playing real grands sounds a bit muffled for the player. It’s the audience sitting against the open lid that experience brighter sound. So, while people might found the sound of N1X slightly soft from playing position (and especially if they’re used to more direct and bright sound as heard on records or when sitting in the audience), I am confident this is the proper way of hearing the piano sound as a player. I’d say I prefer it over headphones even with the otherwise awesome binaural CFX. I’ll try to play more on speakers when I can.

And again, not sure what Yamaha changed but the Bösendorfer is brighter than the CFX on speakers. That’s a huge surprise. I’m split between which one I prefer, they are complementing each other perfectly and offer great variety for different types of music and personal tastes. I’d still choose CFX more often though.

And the keyboard definitely feels even heavier. In a nice way. All at all, I’m so deeply fascinated by this piano! It’s the best piano I could ever imagine I would realistically own. I’m glad I ended up with the N1X and it’s definitely one of the most successful product choices I’ve ever made.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/21/19 09:23 AM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
And the keyboard definitely feels even heavier. In a nice way. All at all, I’m so deeply fascinated by this piano! It’s the best piano I could ever imagine I would realistically own. I’m glad I ended up with the N1X and it’s definitely one of the most successful product choices I’ve ever made.

Yay. And I feel like I did my part in pushing on CyberGene to trade up! wink

Now if only our local piano stores can final stock one of these things so I can try it myself! grrrrrr..... mad
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/21/19 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
...And the keyboard definitely feels even heavier. In a nice way. All at all, I’m so deeply fascinated by this piano! It’s the best piano I could ever imagine I would realistically own. I’m glad I ended up with the N1X and it’s definitely one of the most successful product choices I’ve ever made.

How would rate the noise of the mechanical action when playing through speakers at low volume or when you use your open-back headphones? I ask this because I already had issues with neighbours when playing late at night due to the thumpety thump of my previous DP. My only data point is a grand with silent system that I occasionally play, but most of the noise I hear comes from the mute/silent rail and not from the action itself.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/21/19 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by arc7urus
How would rate the noise of the mechanical action when playing through speakers at low volume or when you use your open-back headphones? I ask this because I already had issues with neighbours when playing late at night due to the thumpety thump of my previous DP. My only data point is a grand with silent system that I occasionally play, but most of the noise I hear comes from the mute/silent rail and not from the action itself.

There's a loud thump, no doubt about it. It's certainly louder than regular digital pianos. If you've previously had problems with that, you'll have with the N1X and I guess hybrid or silent pianos. I guess it's inevitable, you have high velocity hammers that need to rebound with the same speed as from a string (e.g. a high tensile spring). If you have to eliminate noise, you should either use a lot of dampening on the rail but that would interfere with the rebound, or have noise insulated body or something.

Fortunately I don't have problems with neighbors regarding thumping. I believe one of the reasons might be that traditionally Bulgarian construction is very heavyweight, excessive concrete amounts are used for slabs and rooms are separated by heavy bricks. I've sometimes heard ridicules about how we build houses as though they are pill-boxes smile But at least noise even between two rooms is well insulated. I remember when I lived in Ireland, internal walls were pathetic, I could hear my room mate breathing in the next room... And even between flats/floors it was all so thin.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/21/19 11:59 AM

Based on CyberGene’s impressions (and others), it seems like the N1X is a ‘substantial’ improvement over the N1 despite the specs not being too different.
For example, the speakers got a slight bump in wattage, but there’s no mention of the actual quality. Could the speakers on the N1X be slightly better overall?
What about the action? In terms of dimensions it seems to be identical, but what if Yamaha gave it the true acoustic treatment this time around; perhaps employing their master technicians for the final touches, such as regulation, etc... Who knows?
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/21/19 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14
Based on CyberGene’s impressions (and others), it seems like the N1X is a ‘substantial’ improvement over the N1 despite the specs not being too different.
For example, the speakers got a slight bump in wattage, but there’s no mention of the actual quality. Could the speakers on the N1X be slightly better overall?
What about the action? In terms of dimensions it seems to be identical, but what if Yamaha gave it the true acoustic treatment this time around; perhaps employing their master technicians for the final touches, such as regulation, etc... Who knows?

The improvements are mostly limited to the sound engine (resonance model/VRM, new multi-channel samples, binaural CFX samples) plus updated connectivity options (BT Audio, USB Digital Audio and Smart Pianist app integration). Upgrades to the speakers are not mentioned on the press release or on the official pages.

I also seriously doubt that N1X features an improved action. You should expect to find the same action as in the N3X (released ca. 2016) and I wouldn't be surprised if this action is the same used on the AvantGrands released around 2011. Maybe some of the materials and production processes were changed. For example, the repetition lever on the AvantGrands is made of plastic, but this might have been a change introduced during production. But if there was any tangible improvement to the action you could be sure you would find plenty of marketing gibberish around it. And there is none... so, either the action is the same as before or is was downgraded to increase profit margins... I would bet on the former.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/21/19 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by arc7urus
The improvements are mostly limited to the sound engine (resonance model/VRM, new multi-channel samples, binaural CFX samples)


I've played a N1 many years ago and I wasn't impressed. I would agree that the power of a good playability coming from better samples, multichannel projection, VRM, etc.shouldn't be underestimated.

As to action, I don't think an upgrade is needed. Grand piano actions have been like that for 200 years. Well, yeah, the pivot point could have been longer but other than that it's still a nice grand piano action - the one that has been on the market for hundreds of years, however made in the 21st century. The real actions don't get upgraded every 3 years. They never get upgraded, they have been always like that smile Kawai and WNG upgraded some parts with ABS and other composites. Yamaha replaced the repetition lever with a plastic one. Can't see what's wrong in that. Plastic is stronger than wood. We don't even know what kind of plastic that is. You can also say ABS is plastic too.

I believe the digital crowd is too used to expecting evolutions, revolutions, upgrades and whatnot every few years which isn't the case about a long ago established grand piano action. I really can't see why would Yamaha need to update the action in an AvantGrand. It feels great to me, undistinguishable from the action of an acoustic grand, simply because it's the action from an acoustic grand.
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/21/19 01:26 PM

I purchased this new monitor from Amazon ($164.00).

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

It’s a 31.5” monitor and it’s just the right size to be a few feet away from the N1X. I need a monitor for my piano lessons, VST’s, and recording. I was using a smaller 21” monitor, but I didn’t like it so close to the piano. This one works well and I’m happy with it.

The height of the N1X music rest is like a normal acoustic piano and I needed a stand that could raise the monitor high enough for me to see it over the music rest. I was able to find this stand on Amazon ($49.99) and I’m really happy with it also.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

I like this setup because it places the monitor away from the piano keeping the playing experience more natural. That’s one thing I really like about the N1X. I feel like I’m sitting down to play a real piano. I never had that feeling before with the various DP’s I’ve owned and I always coveted playing a real piano anytime I could. Now when I play different acoustic pianos (I have access to two Kawai pianos) I feel like I’m literally transitioning from one acoustic (N1X) to another.

The N1X is remarkably authentic. My fingers are more conditioned after a few weeks of playing it. It’s very noticeable when I play the heavier actions of the Kawai pianos. My fingers feel strong, whereas before, they would feel weak when transitioning to an acoustic from the MP11SE. I also feel like I have more dynamic control on real acoustics after playing the N1X. The other day I was able to play in-between services at church and I immediately felt confident and in command because I’ve gotten used to playing the N1X acoustic/hybrid action everyday.

I’m sure experienced players can transition between DP and acoustics quite effortlessly, but as a beginner, I found it more challenging. Perhaps there was a psychological factor along with the actual neuromuscular difference. However, the N1X is getting my brain wired to the feel of an acoustic piano and I feel much more comfortable actually sitting behind a real acoustic and playing it.

God Bless,
David
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/21/19 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by arc7urus
The improvements are mostly limited to the sound engine (resonance model/VRM, new multi-channel samples, binaural CFX samples)


I've played a N1 many years ago and I wasn't impressed. I would agree that the power of a good playability coming from better samples, multichannel projection, VRM, etc.shouldn't be underestimated.

As to action, I don't think an upgrade is needed. Grand piano actions have been like that for 200 years. Well, yeah, the pivot point could have been longer but other than that it's still a nice grand piano action - the one that has been on the market for hundreds of years, however made in the 21st century. The real actions don't get upgraded every 3 years. They never get upgraded, they have been always like that smile Kawai and WNG upgraded some parts with ABS and other composites. Yamaha replaced the repetition lever with a plastic one. Can't see what's wrong in that. Plastic is stronger than wood. We don't even know what kind of plastic that is. You can also say ABS is plastic too.

I believe the digital crowd is too used to expecting evolutions, revolutions, upgrades and whatnot every few years which isn't the case about a long ago established grand piano action. I really can't see why would Yamaha need to update the action in an AvantGrand. It feels great to me, undistinguishable from the action of an acoustic grand, simply because it's the action from an acoustic grand.

Sorry if my comments sounded negative. That was not the point. A capable sound engine is fundamental to connect the player to the DP. Even with an hybrid action, a DP with a subpar sound engine will not be able to deliver the illusion of playing a grand. So, the upgrade to the sound engine is very significative.

The usage of composite and plastic materials also make complete sense to increase the stability of the action and to reduce the impact of humidity and temperature changes. And these "modern" materials are not used by many acoustic pianos builders because they are somehow "inferior" but simply to keep with tradition (another example of this is the use of brass instead of other alloys).
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/21/19 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by arc7urus
Sorry if my comments sounded negative. That was not the point. A capable sound engine is fundamental to connect the player to the DP. Even with an hybrid action, a DP with a subpar sound engine will not be able to deliver the illusion of playing a grand. So, the upgrade to the sound engine is very significative.

The usage of composite and plastic materials also make complete sense to increase the stability of the action and to reduce the impact of humidity and temperature changes. And these "modern" materials are not used by many acoustic pianos builders because they are somehow "inferior" but simply to keep with tradition (another example of this is the use of brass instead of other alloys).

Sorry if it sounded like I was opposing your post. On the contrary, actually I liked what you said and quoted it in agreement that a sound upgrade can actually result in a much better instrument even if the action is the same. My post was probably a bit grumpy but wasn't an answer to you but rather to the generic notion I've seen sometimes in the forum that Yamaha need to upgrade the keyboard action in N1.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/21/19 02:20 PM

Realistically speaking, I agree with arc7urus and CyberGene regarding the plausibility of an improved action in the AvantGrand in terms of parts, dimensions, etc.. but my fantasy has more to do with ‘improvements’ to the implementation, such as regulation, of these components.
Then again, as mentioned before, if Yamaha had made these improvements they’d be all over it and then some......... “Regulated by Michio Sacamoto, the best piano technician ever born....on planet earth.”
So yes, any perceived improvements most likely have to do with the new sound engine and such.

P.S.

Let us not confuse plastic with ABS. The last time I referred to Kawai piano butts being made from plastic, I got a whipping (lesson) from James in terms of the differences. And here I always thought ABS to be some form of plastic. I learned my lesson! Thanks, James. grin
Posted By: jeffscot

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/21/19 02:37 PM


My local Yamaha dealer carries all the Yamaha acoustic and digital pianos, with the exception of the AvantGrands.
They say more people are interested in the silent acoustics than the AvantGrands.

So i don’t get the pleasure of trying out the N1X. mad
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/21/19 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by David B
I purchased this new monitor from Amazon ($164.00).

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

It’s a 31.5” monitor and it’s just the right size to be a few feet away from the N1X. I need a monitor for my piano lessons, VST’s, and recording. I was using a smaller 21” monitor, but I didn’t like it so close to the piano. This one works well and I’m happy with it.

The height of the N1X music rest is like a normal acoustic piano and I needed a stand that could raise the monitor high enough for me to see it over the music rest. I was able to find this stand on Amazon ($49.99) and I’m really happy with it also.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

I like this setup because it places the monitor away from the piano keeping the playing experience more natural. That’s one thing I really like about the N1X. I feel like I’m sitting down to play a real piano. I never had that feeling before with the various DP’s I’ve owned and I always coveted playing a real piano anytime I could. Now when I play different acoustic pianos (I have access to two Kawai pianos) I feel like I’m literally transitioning from one acoustic (N1X) to another.

The N1X is remarkably authentic. My fingers are more conditioned after a few weeks of playing it. It’s very noticeable when I play the heavier actions of the Kawai pianos. My fingers feel strong, whereas before, they would feel weak when transitioning to an acoustic from the MP11SE. I also feel like I have more dynamic control on real acoustics after playing the N1X. The other day I was able to play in-between services at church and I immediately felt confident and in command because I’ve gotten used to playing the N1X acoustic/hybrid action everyday.

I’m sure experienced players can transition between DP and acoustics quite effortlessly, but as a beginner, I found it more challenging. Perhaps there was a psychological factor along with the actual neuromuscular difference. However, the N1X is getting my brain wired to the feel of an acoustic piano and I feel much more comfortable actually sitting behind a real acoustic and playing it.

God Bless,
David

David, many thanks for your input!

I think that what you are experiencing is not only a psychological effect. The level of mechanical feedback from an acoustic action cannot be compared to any top-tier digital action. Advanced players already know how to "work with the action", so they can easily adapt to the characteristics of most instruments. However, extensive experience is required to start creating that connection between the acoustic action and the player. And that feedback is something you will always lack from a digital action, even as beginner. So, I am happy that you are already able to feel the difference!
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/21/19 02:49 PM

jeffscot, I think they’re full of it! I doubt that most people are interested in the silent option; simply due to pricing and all the other inconveniences related to acoustic-based silent pianos. You know, these silent pianos have to be tuned regularly, and properly ventilated. Novus-type hybrids can be beaten to the ground before any need for maintenance.
Posted By: johnstaf

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/21/19 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14

Let us not confuse plastic with ABS. The last time I referred to Kawai piano butts being made from plastic, I got a whipping (lesson) from James in terms of the differences. And here I always thought ABS to be some form of plastic. I learned my lesson! Thanks, James. grin


ABS is a common plastic.

Lego is made of ABS.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/21/19 02:54 PM

Wait, are you saying Kawai James is wrong?
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/21/19 03:05 PM

without speaking for James, I think he may have been talking about the characteristics of the plastic in question or additional compounds added to it.

ABS itself is plastic. It's a type of plastic, and there are many types, with widely varying qualities.

Saying ABS is not plastic is like saying balsa (or rare macassar ebony) is not wood. It may not be suitable for your particular need but it's definitely a class of wood.
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/21/19 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14
Wait, are you saying Kawai James is wrong?

I think the distinction was, that the Millennium III action parts are made out of an ABS + carbon fiber composite.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/21/19 03:09 PM

Actually Kawai Millenium III is a composite of ABS and carbon. I won't speculate as to what percentage is the carbon part in that composite wink In a totally unrelated news, I've recently bought some biscuits "with butter", and then when I actually read the ingredients, the butter was 0.1% laugh But yeah, there IS butter in the biscuits, right?

P.S. JoBert beat me to it.
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/21/19 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14
Wait, are you saying Kawai James is wrong?

KJ is simply using Kawai's official marketing terminology, which, like most marketing-oriented terms are usually far from being precise. So, do not blame KJ but his employer. And obviously marketing is never wrong.

Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by Pete14

Let us not confuse plastic with ABS. The last time I referred to Kawai piano butts being made from plastic, I got a whipping (lesson) from James in terms of the differences. And here I always thought ABS to be some form of plastic. I learned my lesson! Thanks, James. grin

ABS is a common plastic.
Lego is made of ABS.

ABS is certainly a common plastic. ABS composites, such as ABS mixed with other resins or fibers are still classified as plastic by the manufacturing industry. This also applies to the CFRP aka ABS-Carbon used in the Millennium-III action.

However, it is well known that any material will acquire magical properties after passing through the marketing department and therefore cannot be classified anymore by mere mortals.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/21/19 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by arc7urus

However, it is well known that any material will acquire magical properties after passing through the marketing department and therefore cannot be classified anymore by mere mortals.


Or, realistic properties. It's almost certain that ABS alone (or other composite forms) didn't pass the durability and longevity requirements Kawai had for an action component, whereas ABS-carbon did. Given that, it makes sense that they would want to highlight the difference whenever they could. And that difference could be avoiding any reference to it as "simply" ABS. I'm willing to give them that much, since it's a part of any materials selection process.
Posted By: johnstaf

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/21/19 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14
Wait, are you saying Kawai James is wrong?


Lego is cool.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/21/19 03:34 PM

I think I will open the N1X after the 30-day period (no, I'm not intending to return it unless I discover a fault) to just have a look at the action and check whether the repetition levers are still plastic. With that in mind, how is a N1 opened? I would assume it's unscrewing the topmost screws in the rear and then sliding the top panel forward but since there are also speaker grills I am afraid there might be tweeters attached to panel and I need to be careful to unplug cables...

Wondering why Yamaha chose exactly the repetition lever to be plastic though. Its function isn't weight bearing. I mean, it's the jack that is transferring the force from the keys to the knuckle and hammer, as well as the friction at the escapement point and I would imagine the jack as the most obvious target for replacing wood with plastic. NU1 and NU1X according to pictures have plastic jacks. It's an upright action but the principle is the same, so it's strange why Yamaha (supposedly) use wooden jacks in the N1(X) and plastic repetition levers.
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/21/19 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
Or, realistic properties. It's almost certain that ABS alone (or other composite forms) didn't pass the durability and longevity requirements Kawai had for an action component, whereas ABS-carbon did. Given that, it makes sense that they would want to highlight the difference whenever they could. And that difference could be avoiding any reference to it as "simply" ABS. I'm willing to give them that much, since it's a part of any materials selection process.

I think Kawai has been using plastic parts in their actions since the 70s, and they were indeed using "normal" ABS for a long time (successfully). AFAIK, only with the Millennium III did they introduce the ABS-carbon composite (in 2003 or so).
Here's an interesting article about that (including about the underhand sales tactics of the competition, to bad mouth those "plastic actions"):
http://digitaleditions.sheridan.com/publication/?i=85037&article_id=709953&view=articleBrowser&ver=html5#{%22issue_id%22:85037,%22view%22:%22articleBrowser%22,%22article_id%22:%22709953%22}

So to bring this back on-topic a bit: I see no reason to see the introduction of the plastic repetition lever by Yamaha as a negative thing. After all, they have to start somewhere, if they want to catch up to the industry leader in the field of action parts made out of modern materials. wink Maybe they are using the AvantGrands (where the DP crowd is maybe more likely to accept the evil plastic parts) to test out those parts, to later phase them in in their acoustic lines, once they have shown that they do work in the AvantGrands (for a decade or two)...
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/21/19 04:03 PM

Are we being used as guinea pigs for Yamaha’s macabre plan: testing ABS -I wanna say plastic- components on us before they start mass producing for the acoustic crowd? Shame on you, Yamaha.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/21/19 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by Pete14
Wait, are you saying Kawai James is wrong?


Lego is cool.


How about a Lego piano action, anyone for it?
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/21/19 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by Pete14
Wait, are you saying Kawai James is wrong?


Lego is cool.


How about a Lego piano action, anyone for it?


Hmmm

Posted By: Harpuia

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/21/19 05:25 PM

Look at this: https://youtu.be/_O1UHbWe3vE

Yamaha Grantouch used both plastic repetition lever and plastic jack, starting from 20 years ago.

I opened my N3 and I’ve confirmed that the repetition lever is made of plastic but the jack is made of wood. There is a guy in the technician forum said N3X has plastic jack and he found some reproducible failures for the action. I’m not 100% sure about what he meant. I tested an N3X last week and tried to play a trill for a long time (longer than 30s). There is chance that the key gets hanged and I have to release the key fully to play it again.
Posted By: spanishbuddha

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/21/19 05:25 PM

Now I have GAS (Lego piano) smile
Posted By: Harpuia

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/21/19 05:50 PM

Also I did tested the action of Yamaha N2, N3X, Yamaha acoustic grands and a couple of Steinway and Bosendorfer side by side. I think each individual piano varied a little bit and the regulation matters a lot. Personally I don’t feel much difference among those pianos. I wrote those impressions in a separate thread.

The really important fact is the combination of the touch and tone. That’s something that really sets a good piano apart. If you considered touch only (like turn off the power of an AG and played silently), the difference is much less.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/21/19 09:37 PM

I would be very surprised if there was some noticeable deficiency with the AG's action. Yamaha went to such expense and effort to get a pristine acoustic action into a digital, it'd be such a waste to "cheap out" with inferior parts now (not saying that plastic is inferior to wood as a material, but if a change did result in a less capable action, then that would indeed be a shame).
Posted By: johnstaf

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/21/19 09:44 PM

I wonder if this will make its way to the acoustics. Making mechanical parts out of wood in the 21st Century is a bit odd, although plastic actions are more expensive currently.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/22/19 12:01 AM

I dedicated the night to piano playing, maybe 3 hours now! I am slowly regaining my technique but it's still far from what I feel is my best... frown Decided to record something classical this time:


I did zillions of takes but never managed to record it without mistakes frown I'll need more time for that... But N1X is one h*ll of a beast! I can't stop digging it! I know I said the same about the NU1X but that was before I got the N1X wink

BTW, I have lowered the headphones volume from the MAX position. Seems after playing a lot and "calibrating" my ears and brain to the dynamic range of the piano, as well as regaining my finger strength, I had to lower the volume and that's good, there's some headroom now.
Posted By: jeffscot

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/22/19 01:24 AM


Nice playing, CyberGene!

Like the black & white, artistically angled vidoes. thumb
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/22/19 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by arc7urus

However, it is well known that any material will acquire magical properties after passing through the marketing department and therefore cannot be classified anymore by mere mortals.


Or, realistic properties. It's almost certain that ABS alone (or other composite forms) didn't pass the durability and longevity requirements Kawai had for an action component, whereas ABS-carbon did.

I agree. But if a company wants to market a product as "more than conventional ABS", then why use "ABS" to describe the product in first place? This is marketing 101.

And are you aware that Kawai used ABS plastic on their piano actions before the Millennium-III with carbon fiber was introduced? ABS was then considered by Kawai an "ideal material for use in the critical parts of a piano action". So, ABS was able to meet Kawai's quality requirements before. This makes carbon fiber an even-more-than-ideal material, which is probably a good thing wink

Originally Posted by Gombessa
Given that, it makes sense that they would want to highlight the difference whenever they could. And that difference could be avoiding any reference to it as "simply" ABS. I'm willing to give them that much, since it's a part of any materials selection process.

Sure. When ABS is reinforced with carbon fibers, the resulting composite material is called CFRP which stands for Carbon Fiber Reinforced Plastic/Polymer or simply Carbon Fiber. Carbon Fiber is not only a widely known term but also often associated to demanding (and expensive) applications, such as aviation and high-performance sports. So, if they really wanted to avoid references to ABS, why not just call it carbon fiber? This is exactly how WNG labels their piano action parts. Maybe CFRP is called this way in Japan and this is just one of those "lost in translation" situations...
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/22/19 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by Harpuia
Look at this: https://youtu.be/_O1UHbWe3vE

Yamaha Grantouch used both plastic repetition lever and plastic jack, starting from 20 years ago.

I opened my N3 and I’ve confirmed that the repetition lever is made of plastic but the jack is made of wood. There is a guy in the technician forum said N3X has plastic jack and he found some reproducible failures for the action. I’m not 100% sure about what he meant. I tested an N3X last week and tried to play a trill for a long time (longer than 30s). There is chance that the key gets hanged and I have to release the key fully to play it again.


The AG repetition lever is plastic. Not sure if the jack is wood or plastic. May be wood or wood-coloured plastic. See picture below from Yamaha's website.

Regarding the action "failures": I don't think it is feasible for an hybrid action to behave "better" than an acoustic piano action that is properly and periodically regulated. The AG will be regulated just once at the factory. After that it will travel by sea for weeks, be stored in some warehouse and then transported by road until final delivery. It is a fact that an hybrid action is rather resilient to environmental changes and all the bumps during transportation, but it is not immune to those. Nevertheless, I wonder how many hybrid piano owners consider regulating the DP after the break-in period. And if they decide to do it, I wonder how many technicians are actually qualified to perform such a task.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/22/19 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by Pete14
Wait, are you saying Kawai James is wrong?

I think the distinction was, that the Millennium III action parts are made out of an ABS + carbon fiber composite.


Correct.
Posted By: bSharp(C)yclist

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/22/19 12:11 PM

In my N2, the repetition lever is plastic. The jack is wood.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/22/19 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
I dedicated the night to piano playing, maybe 3 hours now!...

Very nice playing!
Quote
BTW, I have lowered the headphones volume from the MAX position. Seems after playing a lot and "calibrating" my ears and brain to the dynamic range of the piano, as well as regaining my finger strength, I had to lower the volume and that's good, there's some headroom now.

I think you should get an headphone amp. You are likely losing clarity and soundstage by driving your 300 Ohm headphones directly from the AG.

Btw, have you tested already the Smart Pianist app with the N1X? I am curious about what can be controlled via app, since I cannot find such description on the manuals.

But I am disappointed because according to the manual it is not possible to use Bluetooth to connect to the app. The manual says you need to use either a cabled USB connection (plus the Lightning/USB adapter on a iOS device) or an wifi connection using the Yamaha UD-WL01 adapter (which is far from ideal since it requires the device to be disconnected from the internet).
Posted By: HwyStar

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/22/19 12:56 PM

Suggest to us acr7urus a good headphone amp that would sit nicely and work well with the piano. Maybe it would be mounted below the key bed? I use 650’s too (300 ohm).

There are so many choices out there I just throw my hands in the air. I do NOT want to become an audio-pile again. Been there, done that.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/22/19 01:06 PM

I'm not a huge proponent of the dedicated headphone amps TBH. I've had a brief "audiophile" period in which I was advised good headphones such as HD650 need headphone amps and so I've had multiple headphone amps: a custom built one from a well-respected Bulgarian engineer, with discrete elements, toroid power supply, galvanically isolated AK4490 DAC and whatnot..., an Apogee Groove USB DAC/amp, a hybrid tube amp. After many months of trying to convince myself it sounded better than just plugging the headphones in my Mac and iPhone I had to admit there's absolutely no difference. Maybe I'm not one of those blessed (cursed?) golden ear guys but I'm perfectly OK without dedicated headphone amps and luckily both the Mac and the iPhone are providing just enough power. Same applies to the N1X now, so I don't really see the need to use an external headphone amp. I sold the audiophile one but I keep the hybrid tube one and might test it but as I said, I rather skeptical. Luckily for my budget I'm immune to audiophilia smile

As to the Smart Pianist, I downloaded it but was disappointed to realize I need to purchase a €100 worth of dedicated wi-fi adapter. And frankly I doubt I can do something special from the app. N1X sounds great as it is, the touch response is perfect. I guess it's only the touch response that would benefit from a dedicated app but in that case it's not needed.
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/22/19 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by HwyStar
Suggest to us acr7urus a good headphone amp that would sit nicely and work well with the piano. Maybe it would be mounted below the key bed? I use 650’s too (300 ohm).

There are so many choices out there I just throw my hands in the air. I do NOT want to become an audio-pile again. Been there, done that.

I have this amp: https://www.schiit.com/products/magni-1 - it is not easy to get one in the EU as they are often out of stock (they are made in the USA).

I use it to drive 250 Ohm headphones (Beyerdynamics DT990) and I am happy with it since I prefer the sound coming out of the amp to the non-amplified source. But that I am no audiophile and I am also not up-to-date when it comes to audio equipment. I picked this amp because of a recommendation and reviews such as this. So, you may get more informed suggestions from other forum members.

PS: I believe this should fit under the keybed provided you install some braces or similar.

Posted By: JoeT

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/22/19 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by arc7urus
I have this amp: https://www.schiit.com/products/magni-1 - it is not easy to get one in the EU as they are often out of stock (they are made in the USA).

It's nowhere to get at all.
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/22/19 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by arc7urus

Btw, have you tested already the Smart Pianist app with the N1X? I am curious about what can be controlled via app, since I cannot find such description on the manuals.


I have and I purchased the wireless adapter. I bought a demo version from Sweetwater for $75. I think the wireless adapter should come with the N1X for free. It's kind of silly I had to purchase it separately. My Yamaha dealer said some other Yamahas come with it free. Why not the N1X?

It controls everything plus more. For example, you can control individual note volumes which I don't believe is possible with just the N1X alone. You can customize the velocity curve settings rather than just the "soft, medium, and hard" the N1X offers. Also, adjusting things like reverb with a slider is much easier on the fly than than the combo button/key method of the N1X. You can record and edit wav files directly to your iPad. Everything is just simplified and enhanced using the app.

However, there is one thing it won't control and I can't figure out why it's missing. It won't control the overall "brightness" e.g., Normal, Bright 1, Bright 2, etc. That a has to be controlled via button/key combo which means you have to disconnect from the app in order to do that. When you're using the app, you cannot use the N1X controls and vice versa. I actually called Yamaha about it and they had no answer for me.

The USB Cable/lightening adapter option is much cheaper, but since I keep the USB to Host connected to my computer all the time, I didn't want the hassle of plugging and unplugging cables every time I use the app. I like the app, but I just don't feel good about having to spend extra money to get the full use out of the N1X. I just doesn't seem right after spending all that money on a premier product like the AdvantGrand.

God Bless,
David

Posted By: newer player

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/22/19 03:51 PM

The "JDS Labs Atom" headphone amp measures well and is $99.

This guy worked at Microsoft and other shops as an audio engineer. He has some outrageous lab equipment and does some reviews of headphone amps for fun on his blog. He stated there is plenty of power for the HD850:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...of-new-jds-labs-atom-headphone-amp.5262/

The MassDrop "Massdrop THX AAA 789" is another option he liked if you have $349 burning a hole in your pocket

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ements-of-massdrop-thx-aaa-789-amp.5001/
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/22/19 04:04 PM

Just a correction. It looks like you can't customize individual velocity curves beyond the options available in the software. However, you can adjust individual note pitch and volume with he app.

God Bless,
David
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/22/19 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by newer player
This guy worked at Microsoft and other shops as an audio engineer.

Amir Majidemehr was never an audio engineer except in his retirement vocation of audio testing as a hobby.
Posted By: percy64

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/22/19 04:29 PM

Seems strange to spend that much on a DP and then have to fork out extra for headphone amp, wireless adaptor etc. You would have thought that Yamaha would have sorted that themselves
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/22/19 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by arc7urus

Nevertheless, I wonder how many hybrid piano owners consider regulating the DP after the break-in period. And if they decide to do it, I wonder how many technicians are actually qualified to perform such a task.


That’s actually a great question and I’ve been wondering about that myself. I asked our local tech and she’s not comfortable doing it. I’m going to call the store and ask if they have anyone (alas will probably have to pay a travel premium.) What would generally be considered a reasonable break in period? 6 months?
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/22/19 04:41 PM

I don’t have audiophile headphones (Sony MDR7506) but they are fine for my older ears. I do find the max volume to be a tad low though compared to the speakers. Not terrible but I wonder if I should think about a headphone amp. The headphone impedance is 63 ohms, would an amp be overkill?
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/22/19 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by squidbot
The headphone impedance is 63 ohms, would an amp be overkill?

yes.
Posted By: TomLC

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/22/19 04:57 PM

Please explain this discussion regarding the need for a headphone amplifier. The NV10 specs. indicate there is one:

“Headphone Enhancements Discrete SpectraModule™ headphone amplifier”

I have to assume the N1x has one also.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/22/19 05:01 PM

This is an audiophile talk and not strictly piano related. Audiophiles are people who often think you need to spend thousands for the sound to be good. IMHO it’s a myth one needs a headphone amp to change how headphones will sound. Unless an amp is not powerful enough to drive the headphones. But let’s not turn that into another audiophile flame smile
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/22/19 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by TomLC
Please explain this discussion regarding the need for a headphone amplifier. The NV10 specs. indicate there is one:

“Headphone Enhancements Discrete SpectraModule™ headphone amplifier”

I have to assume the N1x has one also.

The issue is one of gain and not whether there is already an amplifier or not. But if there is enough gain in the amplifier to drive a given pair of headphones to an adequate sound pressure level given the impedance and sensitivity of those particular headphones? The MDR7506 has a sensitivity of 106 dB/W/m and is 63Ω. There is no reason squidbot needs a higher gain amplifier to drive those to reasonable levels. (say 100 dB max).
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/22/19 05:10 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Unless an amp is not powerful enough to drive the headphones. But let’s not turn that into another audiophile flame smile

I believe the Squidbot was asking about whether the amp would be powerful enough to drive the headphones to a reasonable level, but his MDR7506 is sensitive enough and the 63Ω low enough that the N1X can drive the headphones to a completely unreasonable volume.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Audiophiles are people who often think you need to spend thousands for the sound to be good. IMHO it’s a myth one needs a headphone amp to change how headphones will sound.

This is no more unreal then people thinking sampled pianos VSTs sound better than modeled piano VSTs because the sound is fuzzier in the sampled pianos, or people who prefer their pianos to have a detuned sound because the unisons are too pure. Recently, on the acoustic piano forum, there was a mini discussion about a certain acoustic having a "synthetic" (?!?!?!) sound. Audio preference is very individualistic and is indeed real.
Posted By: Frédéric L

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/22/19 05:14 PM

Quote
“Headphone Enhancements Discrete SpectraModule™ headphone amplifier”

I have to assume the N1x has one also.


Discrete SpectraModule is a trademark by Onkyo... I don’t expect to find this technology in the Yamaha AvantGrand.
Posted By: TomLC

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/22/19 05:14 PM

Yes, Tyrone, But why would you need another amplifier on the N1x? Even with 300ohm headphones.
Posted By: TomLC

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/22/19 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Discrete SpectraModule is a trademark by Onkyo... I don’t expect to find this technology in the Yamaha AvantGrand.


No, but they have something similar. After all it is Yamaha.
Posted By: percy64

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/22/19 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by TomLC
Please explain this discussion regarding the need for a headphone amplifier. The NV10 specs. indicate there is one:

“Headphone Enhancements Discrete SpectraModule™ headphone amplifier”

I have to assume the N1x has one also.

My own experience trying the N1X in store is that the headphone output is too low - using the same headphones I use regularly on the Clavinova. I had to turn the volume up full and still the sound was too quiet (not as loud as half volume through the speakers)

Maybe a different set of headphones would do better - but that is frustrating in a top-end product
Posted By: JoeT

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/22/19 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by squidbot
I don’t have audiophile headphones (Sony MDR7506) but they are fine for my older ears. I do find the max volume to be a tad low though compared to the speakers. Not terrible but I wonder if I should think about a headphone amp. The headphone impedance is 63 ohms, would an amp be overkill?

The main question is:

Can the N1X amp drive the MDR-7506 and is it loud enough with a linear enough frequency response?

This depends on two factors: output impedance of the (built-in) amp and efficiency of the headphones drivers.

There is a common misconception, that low impedance headphone drivers mean better efficiency and more volume. This is only correct for low (near zero ohm) output impedance sources, like smartphones and computers.

If you headphone amplifier has an higher output impedance (like 50 ohms), you can't you use low impedance headphones, because they will just distort (frequency response) and burn much of the amplification power with the amplifier circuit because of impedance mismatch: Just as with speakers, headphone driver impedance needs to be higher than output impedance. And if its output power isn't enough to drive low efficiency, high impedance headphones, you will get unsatisfying results with those as well.

So what are high output impedance headphone amplifiers good for then? They are cheap to make or in other words: garbage. When you pay peanuts, that's what you usually get.
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/22/19 05:19 PM

This review is a whole lot of hooey ...On the Massdrop amp ... he can distinguish channel 1 at 122.903 dB SNR from channel 2 at 123.014 dB SNR? ?????
(a) Anything over 100 dB is beyond perception.
(b) Measuring that level of SNR requires a screen room ... and more. Does this guy have what it takes?
(c) Can he (or ANYBODY) take such measurements to 6 significant figures? NO!
I call hooey.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/22/19 05:32 PM

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
This review is a whole lot of hooey ...On the Massdrop amp ... he can distinguish channel 1 at 122.903 dB SNR from channel 2 at 123.014 dB SNR? ?????
(a) Anything over 100 dB is beyond perception.
(b) Measuring that level of SNR requires a screen room ... and more. Does this guy have what it takes?
(c) Can he (or ANYBODY) take such measurements to 6 significant figures? NO!
I call hooey.

Amir Majidemehr may be worth $100M from his Microsoft days. He can get a screen room if he wants one.

He certainly has bought an amazing amount of test gear on top of spending hundreds of $K on high-end audio gear to test. Testing is now his post-retirement hobby. He has posted pictures of his basement test lab.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/22/19 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Audiophiles are people who often think you need to spend thousands for the sound to be good. IMHO it’s a myth one needs a headphone amp to change how headphones will sound.

This is no more unreal then people thinking sampled pianos VSTs sound better than modeled piano VSTs because the sound is fuzzier in the sampled pianos, or people who prefer their pianos to have a detuned sound because the unisons are too pure. Recently, on the acoustic piano forum, there was a mini discussion about a certain acoustic having a "synthetic" (?!?!?!) sound. Audio preference is very individualistic and is indeed real.

The truth is in ABX testing. Audiophiles are notorious for hearing cables and then failing in ABX testing. It’s not simply “preference” smile
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/22/19 05:39 PM

I partly agree. But they just don't do it.
The pianos work fine with most headphones and in most use cases. If they miss your situation (or mine), it's just tough. You buy what's needed to make it work.
Originally Posted by percy64
Seems strange to spend that much on a DP and then have to fork out extra for headphone amp, wireless adaptor etc. You would have thought that Yamaha would have sorted that themselves
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/22/19 05:45 PM

I have Shure SRH440 headphones and I don't go past mid volume for fear of damaging my hearing. It's loud at mid volume. If I were to max the volume out with these headphones, it would be intolerably painful.

God Bless,
David
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/22/19 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
This is no more unreal then people thinking sampled pianos VSTs sound better than modeled piano VSTs because the sound is fuzzier in the sampled pianos, or people who prefer their pianos to have a detuned sound because the unisons are too pure. Recently, on the acoustic piano forum, there was a mini discussion about a certain acoustic having a "synthetic" (?!?!?!) sound. Audio preference is very individualistic and is indeed real.

The truth is in ABX testing. Audiophiles are notorious for hearing cables and then failing in ABX testing. It’s not simply “preference” smile

Of course. There are many things that are bogus in audiophile-land. But not everything falls into that category. And yes, there is the matter of preference! But of course preference does not cover everything and will not distinguish OFC cables from those made from non OFC copper!
Posted By: TomLC

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/22/19 06:16 PM

Originally Posted by David B
I have Shure SRH440 headphones and I don't go past mid volume for fear of damaging my hearing. It's loud at mid volume. If I were to max the volume out with these headphones, it would be intolerably painful.

God Bless,
David


+1.
Posted By: AnthonyPaulO

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/22/19 10:12 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
This is no more unreal then people thinking sampled pianos VSTs sound better than modeled piano VSTs because the sound is fuzzier in the sampled pianos, or people who prefer their pianos to have a detuned sound because the unisons are too pure. Recently, on the acoustic piano forum, there was a mini discussion about a certain acoustic having a "synthetic" (?!?!?!) sound. Audio preference is very individualistic and is indeed real.

The truth is in ABX testing. Audiophiles are notorious for hearing cables and then failing in ABX testing. It’s not simply “preference” smile

Of course. There are many things that are bogus in audiophile-land. But not everything falls into that category. And yes, there is the matter of preference! But of course preference does not cover everything and will not distinguish OFC cables from those made from non OFC copper!


I have to admit that my joints act up whenever it’s about to rain or I hear music over non OFC copper cables, and even when I hear someone tell me they’re using cheap cables that doesn’t break the bank. Please, for my joints sake, don’t ever mention cables here unless you’ve taken out several mortgages for them!
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/22/19 10:59 PM

And why don’t we step up even further and discuss expensive USB cables laugh I personally know a guy who purchased a €1000 USB Audioquest cable and believes it makes a difference to his digital music, using very elaborate terms to describe what it improves wink How about that, huh?
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/22/19 11:14 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
And why don’t we step up even further and discuss expensive USB cables laugh I personally know a guy who purchased a €1000 USB Audioquest cable and believes it makes a difference to his digital music, using very elaborate terms to describe what it improves wink How about that, huh?

Why discuss? It's obvious to me how such a cable would work. In order to ensure the hygiene of the bits, they are pre-sorted on the cable.

That said, CyberGene, you have some well-heeled friends. Why didn't you offer to build him a very special power conditioner to ensure that no bad electricity sneak into his equipment. You could have charged for this.... how much was your N1X again?
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/22/19 11:22 PM

Only 1000 EUR? Why cheap out. Please tell him he should go for the REALLY good cables at around 10,000 EUR. smile
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I personally know a guy who purchased a €1000 USB Audioquest cable and believes it makes a difference to his digital music, using very elaborate terms to describe what it improves.
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/23/19 06:33 AM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I believe the Squidbot was asking about whether the amp would be powerful enough to drive the headphones to a reasonable level, but his MDR7506 is sensitive enough and the 63Ω low enough that the N1X can drive the headphones to a completely unreasonable volume.


That is what I'm asking, but I don't find the headphones are driven to a reasonable volume, certainly not compared to the CLP-685. What would be the solution for me then? I would like to be able to turn it up a bit more. I'm definitely not getting the same experience of David B ("I have Shure SRH440 headphones and I don't go past mid volume for fear of damaging my hearing. It's loud at mid volume. If I were to max the volume out with these headphones, it would be intolerably painful.") but am in the percy64 situation where they seem low even at max volume.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/23/19 07:46 AM

Originally Posted by squidbot
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I believe the Squidbot was asking about whether the amp would be powerful enough to drive the headphones to a reasonable level, but his MDR7506 is sensitive enough and the 63Ω low enough that the N1X can drive the headphones to a completely unreasonable volume.


That is what I'm asking, but I don't find the headphones are driven to a reasonable volume, certainly not compared to the CLP-685. What would be the solution for me then? I would like to be able to turn it up a bit more. I'm definitely not getting the same experience of David B ("I have Shure SRH440 headphones and I don't go past mid volume for fear of damaging my hearing. It's loud at mid volume. If I were to max the volume out with these headphones, it would be intolerably painful.") but am in the percy64 situation where they seem low even at max volume.

Well, the key is the voltage gain. So if the output voltage at VRMS for the headphone output isn't high enough, then you simply won't hear it at hearing-damaging levels. You can calculate the minimum VRMS needed from the amplifier to damage your hearing using this spreadsheet. You already know 2 of the inputs for the spreadsheet, the impedance and sensitivity of headphones. The other thing you'll need is to enter the max sound pressure level you want to achieve (see graph at bottom). The spreadsheet then should tell you the minimum VRMS the amp headphone output needs to produce to attain that sound pressure level. If you want to use a external headphone amp, there are a number of them that would deafen you completely, so you should be able to find one that produces whatever the minimum VRMS is. Note however, possibly to avoid lawsuits, some headphone amps actually have a high gain dipswitch inside the case that you have to turn on, to get the real dangerously high voltage gains. For example, since my headphones have less sensitivity than yours and also a higher impedance, I had to open my headphone amp up so I could access the high gain switch.

(BTW, this is all assuming your headphones behave linearly, which they never do. In particular, they may limit current as the sound pressure level goes up, which will naturally then cap the maximum sound pressure level they can produce. Otherwise the drivers would likely burn out, anyways before you can be deafened.)

P.S. Be safe and do none of this testing with the headphones on your ears! wink
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/23/19 08:01 AM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
If you want to use a external headphone amp, there are a number of them that would deafen you completely, so you should be able to find one that produces whatever the minimum VRMS is.

BTW, before you spend money on an external amp, you should check that your N1X is set properly. I'd contact Yamaha and verify you have set everything correctly for the max headphone output levels, and also, I'd ask tech support to look up what the max headphone output voltage gain level produced by the builtin N1X headphone amp is - that is if this info isn't already in your N1X manual. The typical maximum headphone output voltage will vary from 0.1 to 1.0V RMS, with many headphone amps sitting around a 0.7V RMS level.
Posted By: ando

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/23/19 08:33 AM

It's little wonder that there are varying experiences with headphone volume. We are all taught that speakers must be matched to our amplifier and we know not to break that rule, yet we expect any set of headphones to work perfectly in any headphone socket. This, despite the fact that one set of headphones might be 1/10 of the impedance of another. If you think about it that way, you can see that audio companies have to choose a range somewhere in the middle. You can't cover everybody. They are probably limited by some standard to prevent hearing damage so that means you need headphones that sit within the range that Yamaha chose. If not, you have to get another amplifier or another set of headphones. I wouldn't call this a design fault, more of a practical/legal necessity.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/23/19 09:13 AM

Originally Posted by ando
It's little wonder that there are varying experiences with headphone volume. We are all taught that speakers must be matched to our amplifier and we know not to break that rule, yet we expect any set of headphones to work perfectly in any headphone socket. This, despite the fact that one set of headphones might be 1/10 of the impedance of another. If you think about it that way, you can see that audio companies have to choose a range somewhere in the middle. You can't cover everybody. They are probably limited by some standard to prevent hearing damage so that means you need headphones that sit within the range that Yamaha chose. If not, you have to get another amplifier or another set of headphones. I wouldn't call this a design fault, more of a practical/legal necessity.

I agree, which is what I said to squidbot above! But as I said, at least for headphone amps, the manufacturer sometimes hides an adjustment (sometimes a dipswitch or a jumper) which is the "I know what I'm doing" switch for higher voltage gain. wink
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/23/19 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by arc7urus
I have this amp: https://www.schiit.com/products/magni-1 - it is not easy to get one in the EU as they are often out of stock (they are made in the USA).

It's nowhere to get at all.

What do you mean? They have a dealer in the NL (https://www.schiit-europe.com/) and shipping costs are ca. 5 EUR within the EU. You may have to wait a couple of weeks if the item is not in stock, but you can order any product from their catalogue.
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/23/19 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by squidbot
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I believe the Squidbot was asking about whether the amp would be powerful enough to drive the headphones to a reasonable level, but his MDR7506 is sensitive enough and the 63Ω low enough that the N1X can drive the headphones to a completely unreasonable volume.


That is what I'm asking, but I don't find the headphones are driven to a reasonable volume, certainly not compared to the CLP-685. What would be the solution for me then? I would like to be able to turn it up a bit more. I'm definitely not getting the same experience of David B ("I have Shure SRH440 headphones and I don't go past mid volume for fear of damaging my hearing. It's loud at mid volume. If I were to max the volume out with these headphones, it would be intolerably painful.") but am in the percy64 situation where they seem low even at max volume.

I would expect the N1X (or any other DP for that matter) to be capable of driving headphones up to ca. 80 Ohm without the need to crank up the volume to near max. The use case for an external amp applies when connecting 200+ Ohm headphones to portable devices and other equipment that lacks the proper amplification circuitry. In my case, the 250 Ohm headphones sound low even at max volume. But the major issue is not the volume but the quality of the sound, since it loses spatiality and becomes "muddy", especially the lower freqs. With the external amp, I am able to get a clear sound regardless of the volume. Btw, if I connect low impedance headphones to the amp I cannot tell the difference.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/23/19 12:51 PM

I'm currently using my HD-650-s (300Ω) at around 80-90% volume and the sound is very clean. There's no muddy sound, there's no lack of separation or any distortions at all. I mean, the headphone amp in the N1X is perfectly capable driving even 300Ω headphones, so apparently there's no need for an external amplification. Most probably the piano will be able to drive almost every possible headphones except for some exotic high-impedance 600Ω headphones, etc. The headphone amp is apparently up tp the task.
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/23/19 01:02 PM

That's surprising, CG. But it's useful information.

Ya know ... with all the possible pianos and all the possible headphones ... how is anyone to know whether given phones will work well with a given piano?
Perhaps discoveries, such as yours, should be compiled for reference?
Your information is not the first and will not be the last ... but it will disappear from public knowledge all too quickly if it's not kept visible somehow. frown
Posted By: JoeT

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/23/19 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Ya know ... with all the possible pianos and all the possible headphones ... how is anyone to know whether given phones will work well with a given piano?

Simple: Check the technical specification of the headphones amplifier. These need to be provided by the manufacturer obviously. Here is an example:

Frequency Response: 20Hz-20Khz, -0.1db, 2Hz-900KHz, -3dB
Maximum Power, 16 ohms: 3W RMS per channel
Maximum Power, 32 ohms: 2W RMS per channel
Maximum Power, 50 ohms: 1.3W RMS per channel
Maximum Power, 300 ohms: 430mW RMS per channel
Maximum Power, 600 ohms: 230mW RMS per channel
THD: Less than 0.001%, 20Hz-20KHz, at 1V RMS, less than 0.02% at 5V RMS into 32 ohms
IMD: Less than 0.001%, CCIF
SNR: Greater than 108db, unweighted, referenced to 1V RMS
Crosstalk: -70dB, 20 Hz-20KHz
Output Impedance: Less than 0.3 ohms

Obviously digital pianos do not provide these specs, because their headphones amps are afterthoughts no "reviewer" ever wastes a single second with (just like with the built-in speakers). On those fancy YouTube videos, you can see every gear wired up through the LINE OUTs. This is how they listen to those products and this is how the YouTube audience listens to the products.
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/23/19 01:55 PM

CyberGene said that the HD650 phones work with the AG N1X.

Do your specs tell me whether these example phones will work with that piano?
Posted By: percy64

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/23/19 01:57 PM

My headphones are hardly exotic (Audio Technica) but they are 600 ohm. On the Clavinova they do sound quieter than my 32 ohm AKGs but not that much.

I think partly the touch on the much older Clavinova is such that I don't necessarily notice myself playing louder to compensate whereas that is much more apparent on the Hybrid action.
Posted By: JoeT

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/23/19 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
CyberGene said that the HD650 phones work with the AG N1X.

Do your specs tell me whether these example phones will work with that piano?

The specs are not from that piano nor from headphones. Yamaha doesn't post amp specs for the N1X. And hidden specs are usually crap specs.

Of course, you can easily check if the HD650 headphones work with the amp from which my posted specs are (Schiit Magni 3, mentioned earlier in this thread):

HD650 impedance: 300 ohms

Maximum Power, 300 ohms: 430mW RMS per channel (= loud)
Output Impedance: Less than 0.3 ohms < 300 ohms (= works perfectly)

See? It's not black magic. smile
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/23/19 03:10 PM

Oh, those are headphone amp specs. So you can determine, perhaps, whether phones will work with that amp.

But that doesn't answer my question. I want to know whether the phones will work with my piano ... so that I would not need to buy a headphone amp.

Well ... I've never seen any such specs posted for a piano. So the question remains: How do I know whether phones will work with a piano?
Posted By: JoeT

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/23/19 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Well ... I've never seen any such specs posted for a piano.

For a reason.

Quote
So the question remains: How do I know whether phones will work with a piano?

Well, with no posted specs, you won't know. But you can still make an educated guess:

1. They won't work (work = proper match of amplifier and drivers).
2. Because it's analog, they will still make some kind of noise.

For the typical digital piano customer 2 is enough and they don't notice 1.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/23/19 04:48 PM

Originally Posted by percy64
My headphones are hardly exotic (Audio Technica) but they are 600 ohm. On the Clavinova they do sound quieter than my 32 ohm AKGs but not that much.

I think partly the touch on the much older Clavinova is such that I don't necessarily notice myself playing louder to compensate whereas that is much more apparent on the Hybrid action.

Your AT cans are almost monitor headphones in that they have the same impedance as monitors. Of course they cannot be driven by the same amplifier to the same level as your AKGs, But in addition to impedance, when considering how high of a sound pressure level that it will be possible to drive any given pair of headphones from the same amplifier, is the sensitivity of the headphones. Two otherwise comparable headphones with dramatically different sensitivity can also not be driven to identical levels of sound pressure.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
I mean, the headphone amp in the N1X is perfectly capable driving even 300Ω headphones, so apparently there's no need for an external amplification.

You are right but the implication is not necessarily right. As JoeT pointed out above, headphone amplifiers are not scalable in the sense they have a certain output level - voltage gain at the headphone jack. So the N1X built-in amplifier is rated for a certain VRMS output level. This should be enough to drive even 300Ω headphones as you say, or a low impedance set of headphones but not to the same level. It may be enough though.

The key here is not whether it can drive 300Ω headphones of a certain sensitivity (in addition to impedance, it is necessary to consider sensitivity as I mentioned above), the real question is it enough to drive a those headphones to the sound pressure level sought by the user? This is a different question and for this question the answer is most certainly "no" for some sound pressure levels and "yes" for other sound pressure levels. It completely depends on what sound pressure level the user is seeking.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/23/19 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by JoeT
1. They won't work (work = proper match of amplifier and drivers).
2. Because it's analog, they will still make some kind of noise.

For the typical digital piano customer 2 is enough and they don't notice 1.

Wow. I just used a lot more words to say the same thing.... LOL thumb Next time I should read all the posts before responding to any smile
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/23/19 05:39 PM

How come this thread became yet another silly headphone talk... It’s either Pianoteq (guilty myself) or headphones. Sigh... frown
Posted By: JoeT

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/23/19 05:42 PM

Pianoteq is great, headphones are great.

And somehow headphone amps are an issue on the latest Yamaha models (P-515 included). Maybe they changed a supplier?
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/23/19 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
How come this thread became yet another silly headphone talk... It’s either Pianoteq (guilty myself) or headphones. Sigh... frown

Because when people spend a lot of money on a piano, they want to enjoy it. And if there are issues with sound, they aren't enjoying it. Sounds for example, like squidbot is not fully enjoying the N1X because the headphones are not being driven to a high enough level. I think it is only natural to talk about those issues that impede full enjoyment of the piano here.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/23/19 06:31 PM

I really doubt that the 7506 can’t be driven high by the N1X. I’ve had them briefly and they were certainly MUCH louder than HD650 when hooked to the same amp. I think squidbot meant he doesn’t get comparably loud sound to speakers (whatever that meant). Not that they are not loud enough or it impedes his joy. Maybe he will elaborate more. But the talk is again turning into theory of headphones. It’s just boring smile It might seem like I’m taking a defensive stance, as a current happy N1X owner, but it’s just that I’m already bored to death by the new wave of headphone audiophilia that spreads all over the Internet. It’s not just this forum and I’m not referring to anyone personally, so don’t take offense. People talk about amps and stuff so much that actual music is now something auxiliary to all that. Anyway, anyone’s free to discuss whatever he wants smile
Posted By: KevinM

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/23/19 06:36 PM

Honestly I love my Superlux hd681 headphones at 32ohms. Cheap, half closed, sound excellent and my cheap Casio piano can drive them.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/23/19 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
I really doubt that the 7506 can’t be driven high by the N1X. I’ve had them briefly and they were certainly MUCH louder than HD650 when hooked to the same amp. I think squidbot meant he doesn’t get comparably loud sound to speakers (whatever that meant). Not that they are not loud enough or it impedes his joy. Maybe he will elaborate more. But the talk is again turning into theory of headphones. It’s just boring smile It might seem like I’m taking a defensive stance, as a current happy N1X owner, but it’s just that I’m already bored to death by the new wave of headphone audiophilia that spreads all over the Internet. It’s not just this forum and I’m not referring to anyone personally, so don’t take offense. People talk about amps and stuff so much that actual music is now something auxiliary to all that. Anyway, anyone’s free to discuss whatever he wants smile

But that's not it at all. Otherwise you could say the same about DPs and this forum, or acoustics and the acoustic forum, or learning piano and the ABF forum. People often like to talk about their passions, but that's because they are passions. If people actually didn't use their headphones to listen to music or their piano, then they would soon lose interest in talking about the headphones themselves I think - at least for most people. We spend time on headphones because the sound is important to us, but after we attain the sound we like, then we are already happy - and might only talk about it because there are other people who are less happy who we feel we might be able to help (like squidbot smile )
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/23/19 07:29 PM

I think I almost completely disagree smile Anyway, peace!
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/23/19 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
I think I almost completely disagree smile Anyway, peace!

Well, you spend time on this forum talking about digital pianos and hybrids. Could you imagine yourself talking about digital pianos if you actually no longer even use a digital piano? Some day, if by some magic, you have sold your last digital piano and find yourself only with acoustics, would you still expect that you'd spend as much time on this particular forum? Do you think there are people on here who consistently talk about digital pianos who no longer even use digital pianos?

And if you don't think that is true for digital pianos, why do you think it is true for anything else people get interested in?

But if you do think that there are people on this forum who consistently talk about digital pianos, but who no longer even use them, then I count myself surprised, as I don't understand why that would be at all... It seems illogical and not well motivated behavior.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/23/19 08:08 PM

I really don’t want to go into this kind of talk. Headphones and audiophilia are a very special case which is hardly comparable to other hobbies. You won’t hear people telling you they’re passionate about DSLR-s or lenses. They will say they like photography. You won’t find people passionate about DIGITAL pianos, or ACOUSTIC pianos. They will just say they like PIANO or even music in a more general sense. However many people are just passionate about headphones, speakers, amps, DAC-s, cables, etc. You won’t hear them talk about music. Even if they do, they usually only pretend wink
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/23/19 08:20 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
I really don’t want to go into this kind of talk. Headphones and audiophilia are a very special case which is hardly comparable to other hobbies. You won’t hear people telling you they’re passionate about DSLR-s or lenses. They will say they like photography. You won’t find people passionate about DIGITAL pianos, or ACOUSTIC pianos. They will just say they like PIANO or even music in a more general sense. However many people are just passionate about headphones, speakers, amps, DAC-s, cables, etc. You won’t hear them talk about music. Even if they do, they usually only pretend wink

Having spent about $45K on audio equipment over the last 30 years, I guess I fall into your group, except until recently on this forum as a matter of fact, I almost never talked about audio equipment, although I've read about it. I have my own setup and listen to my music.

Frankly, I've never met any such audiophiles as you describe personally, although I can imagine them in theory - my wife is in the art business and works with art collectors - some art collectors spend millions on art which they store in special climate controlled warehouses and almost never look at themselves. The description of an audiophile who spends money on equipment and then doesn't use it because they don't appreciate music is a bit like this, and so if art collectors can do it, then why can't certain audiophiles?

I would really like someone to point out some examples of real people who are like this, though. I think the audiophiles you personally know who are like this are something like faux audiophiles or are actually not audiophiles but just have an ungodly amount of money. When a billionaire goes to buy audio equipment, he naturally might buy different stuff than you or I, and why not, if they have the money?
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/23/19 08:35 PM

Let’s wait for squidbot to confirm if he indeed can’t drive the 7506 loud enough even at max volume. If that’s the case, he needs an amp, although I would personally check other headphones first and even my hearing because as I said 7506 are very sensitive and it’s very doubtful the N1X can’t drive them to deafening levels.
Posted By: JoeT

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/23/19 08:59 PM

My MDR-7506 isn't very efficient. It needs quite a punch.

Though none of my digitals can drive headphones to deafening levels. I've yet to see that.
Posted By: jeffscot

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/23/19 09:10 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Frankly, I've never met any such audiophiles as you describe personally, although I can imagine them in theory - my wife is in the art business and works with art collectors - some art collectors spend millions on art which they store in special climate controlled warehouses and almost never look at themselves. The description of an audiophile who spends money on equipment and then doesn't use it because they don't appreciate music is a bit like this, and so if art collectors can do it, then why can't certain audiophiles?

Art collections can be used to hide money, with the added possibility of a decent return on investment.
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/23/19 11:08 PM

True, true.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
How come this thread became yet another silly headphone talk... It’s either Pianoteq (guilty myself) or headphones. Sigh... frown
This "was" an N1X thread. smile
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/23/19 11:19 PM

Originally Posted by jeffscot
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Frankly, I've never met any such audiophiles as you describe personally, although I can imagine them in theory - my wife is in the art business and works with art collectors - some art collectors spend millions on art which they store in special climate controlled warehouses and almost never look at themselves. The description of an audiophile who spends money on equipment and then doesn't use it because they don't appreciate music is a bit like this, and so if art collectors can do it, then why can't certain audiophiles?

Art collections can be used to hide money, with the added possibility of a decent return on investment.

Which is excellent point and even more points out how nonsensical collecting expensive equipment is if one isn't interested actually using/listening to it. I have I monoblock amplifiers I paid $20K for before I went to Russia 20 years ago. A member of this forum said some things to me in a PM that made me look up the street price of these used today. $8K for the pair today. Not a very good store of value even if it is audio file and they aren't old enough to be "retro" yet. So no, one can't buy expensive audio equipment to hide money or with any possibility of a decent return on investment. If one buys it anyways and doesn't actually use it or like music, well, that is ... interesting.

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
True, true.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
How come this thread became yet another silly headphone talk... It’s either Pianoteq (guilty myself) or headphones. Sigh... frown
This "was" an N1X thread. smile

And it can be again. wink
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/23/19 11:52 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Let’s wait for squidbot to confirm if he indeed can’t drive the 7506 loud enough even at max volume. If that’s the case, he needs an amp, although I would personally check other headphones first and even my hearing because as I said 7506 are very sensitive and it’s very doubtful the N1X can’t drive them to deafening levels.


So sorry, I didn't mean to derail the conversation smile So yes, my headphones work fine. They worked well with the CLP-685 and the volume seemed adequate and there was enough headroom I wasn't getting any muddiness or distortion.

The N1X is a different story and now I'm wondering based on David's feedback if there isn't an issue with the headphone amp on my unit. I have to put the volume knob almost max to get to a reasonable volume (whereas on the CLP-685 it was about 2/3 the available gain.) And even the reasonable volume it seems like the gain is high enough that I'm losing some of the dynamic quality, if I go any higher I get distortion. The headphones work well in every other situation I've had them in, listening to music on my phone, the computer, my ES-110.

So shame on my, I didn't try the headphones on the store unit so I don't know if there is a difference. I also have a couple of other pairs I can try to see what happens (AKG K545 and Sennheiser 598 Cs.) I'm at the Oakland airport right now waiting for my flight back to Seattle so it will be a bit before I can try smile
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/24/19 12:54 AM

Originally Posted by squidbot
[The N1X is a different story and now I'm wondering based on David's feedback if there isn't an issue with the headphone amp on my unit. I have to put the volume knob almost max to get to a reasonable volume (whereas on the CLP-685 it was about 2/3 the available gain.) And even the reasonable volume it seems like the gain is high enough that I'm losing some of the dynamic quality, if I go any higher I get distortion. The headphones work well in every other situation I've had them in, listening to music on my phone, the computer, my ES-110.

So shame on my, I didn't try the headphones on the store unit so I don't know if there is a difference. I also have a couple of other pairs I can try to see what happens (AKG K545 and Sennheiser 598 Cs.) I'm at the Oakland airport right now waiting for my flight back to Seattle so it will be a bit before I can try smile

It should take:
  • 0.071Vrms to drive your MDR-7506 to 95dB (OEM's published, nominal technical specs: 63Ω, 106 dBSPL @ 1 milliwatt)
  • 0.10Vrms to drive your HD598Cs to 95dB (OEM's published, nominal technical specs: 23Ω, 115 dBSPL @ 1Vrms)
  • 0.79Vrms to drive your K545 to 95dB (OEM's published, nominal technical specs: 32Ω, 97 dBSPL @ 1Vrms)

So of all of these, your MDR-7506s should sound the loudest on the N1X, followed by the HD598Cs, and with the K545 in last place.

To conduct a simple experiment, pre-record something on the N1X. Then play it back three times with the N1X volume control set to 70% each time, but with each of these three headphones.

If the MDR-7506 does not sound louder than the other two (and the HD598Cs should sound louder than the K545), then there is likely something wrong with your MDR-7506.

If all three sound loud as ranked in the above order with the MDR-7506 loudest and K545 softest on your pre-recorded piece, and all are unacceptably soft, then it's possibly something wrong with the headphone amp in your N1X and you should conduct more tests (for example, with another N1X) or you should contact Yamaha tech support.
Posted By: oneilt130

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/24/19 10:12 AM

Bringing this back to the N1X I have a question for CyberGene. How does the Binaural CFX on the N1X compare to the same on the NU1X when playing with headphones?
Posted By: HwyStar

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/24/19 10:45 AM

I agree with bringing it back to the N1X.

If your headphones are not being driven properly with the output from the N1X then pick up a great headphone amp for $99 bucks (Schiit Magna 3) and then get back to playing the piano. The headphone amp, with a couple of Home Depot mounting clips under the keybed would do the trick.

Don't make me pull out the next scientific video about how the Chrysler Turbo Encabulator outperforms all other brands of planar tension bolts. That video dates itself. They're using a differential girdle spring, which in modern times has been all but replaced by reciprocating crush bearings.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/24/19 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by oneilt130
Bringing this back to the N1X I have a question for CyberGene. How does the Binaural CFX on the N1X compare to the same on the NU1X when playing with headphones?

I think they are maybe the same. In my YouTube channel (see the signature) there are two videos from the NU1X and one from the N1X, all made with the binaural, so it can be compared.
Posted By: oneilt130

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/24/19 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by oneilt130
Bringing this back to the N1X I have a question for CyberGene. How does the Binaural CFX on the N1X compare to the same on the NU1X when playing with headphones?

I think they are maybe the same. In my YouTube channel (see the signature) there are two videos from the NU1X and one from the N1X, all made with the binaural, so it can be compared.


Thanks. I agree they do sound the same. Of course now that I have watched your videos I realize that I can't blame they way I sound on the instrument anymore. frown
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/24/19 11:47 AM

Thanks for bringing the Encabulator to my attention. I had never before heard of it. I'm now enlightened. Thanks. smile
Originally Posted by HwyStar
Don't make me pull out the next scientific video about how the Chrysler Turbo Encabulator ...
Posted By: percy64

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/24/19 11:56 AM

I don't want to extend the headphone drift of this thread but surely the answer is to buy a pair of headphones that the N1X will drive easily rather than going to the fuss of a separate device wired in?

This is not an issue that will put me off buying the N1X - but it is a frustration in a high end device that here is something it does less well than my ancient Clavinova.
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/24/19 12:41 PM

I agree, Percy. Sometimes the easiest solution is elusive, eh? smile
Posted By: HwyStar

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/24/19 01:14 PM

I agree wholeheartedly Percy! If this is the only issue with this hybrid, it can be solved without a lot of pain or money depending on your cans used.

I bet Yamaha reps are watching these pages and have taken note for the N2X. No, N1X2. Nope, that's not it. Gene: Help me out here! smile
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/24/19 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by percy64
I don't want to extend the headphone drift of this thread but surely the answer is to buy a pair of headphones that the N1X will drive easily rather than going to the fuss of a separate device wired in?

This is not an issue that will put me off buying the N1X - but it is a frustration in a high end device that here is something it does less well than my ancient Clavinova.

But if we are referring to squidbot, it might not be an issue of there being something wrong with the MDR-7506s, but that that particular N1X is defective. So I'd agree that possibility should be eliminated first before just buying another pair of headphones. Besides, if that was the issue, squidbot has 2 other pairs of headphones already. Why buy a fourth?
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/24/19 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by HwyStar
I agree with bringing it back to the N1X.

If your headphones are not being driven properly with the output from the N1X then pick up a great headphone amp for $99 bucks (Schiit Magna 3) and then get back to playing the piano. The headphone amp, with a couple of Home Depot mounting clips under the keybed would do the trick.

The Schiit Magna 3 is a really great headphone amp that proves that audiophile gear can be dirt cheap contrary to the beliefs of some around here abouts. I don't have one but have read some great things about it. And any company that names itself after something you say after the word "good" when you are smoking something to make oneself high, is a good company in my book!

Originally Posted by HwyStar
Don't make me pull out the next scientific video about how the Chrysler Turbo Encabulator outperforms all other brands of planar tension bolts. That video dates itself. They're using a differential girdle spring, which in modern times has been all but replaced by reciprocating crush bearings.

Could this be yet another thiotimoline application?
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/24/19 03:29 PM

I didn't know you could buy Schiit so cheap.
Originally Posted by HwyStar
... pick up a great headphone amp for $99 bucks (Schiit Magna 3)
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/24/19 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I didn't know you could buy Schiit so cheap.
Originally Posted by HwyStar
... pick up a great headphone amp for $99 bucks (Schiit Magna 3)


...especially not audiophile Schiit.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/24/19 05:14 PM

Good job, you guys thumb
At this rate we’ll beat the Novus (thread).
Don’t get me wrong, there’s still a lot of work ahead (2,626 posts and counting), but if we keep this Schiit up, we’ll get there!
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/24/19 05:39 PM

Goodness. You guys are giving analtech.com a run for its money (Oh, of course it's SFW. Go ahead, try it).
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/24/19 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14
Good job, you guys thumb
At this rate we’ll beat the Novus (thread).
Don’t get me wrong, there’s still a lot of work ahead (2,626 posts and counting), but if we keep this Schiit up, we’ll get there!

No chance!
If this thread should come anywhere near the post count of the NV10 thread, I'll just post "Pianoteq does not really sound like a piano, samples are much better!" in the NV10 thread and its post count will skyrocket so fast, you'll only see the dust left behind!
Posted By: ando

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/24/19 06:02 PM

Well, considering about half of the NV10 thread has been about trying to fix problems, I'd say it would be far preferable to lose the post count competition...
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/24/19 08:09 PM

Now, back to boring stuff, I mean N1X... Playing it as much as I can this weekend. A lot through speakers and a lot through headphones.

I can very confidently state now the speaker system is not only better than NU1X, it's absolutely stunning! As I said previously though, the overall sound is rather soft and slightly muffled, as though coming from inside a real grand piano piano. To me that's exactly the way real grands sound and although it's not very often that I play real grand pianos, it's something that I've noticed. However other people might find the same effect not to their liking, especially if they prefer more direct sound. With the NU1X it was clean sound, bright and pure, it was like listening to perfectly chosen monitor speakers, nothing to complain. With the N1X though it's like listening to a grand piano wink But don't take my word for granted. I don't want to cause unnecessary GAS with a biased and "still honeymoon" opinion. But to me personally, I can't believe I am finally having my absolutely dream instrument, taking in mind all else. I mean, yeah, I'd like a Steinway but I don't have the money and the space. For my current situation this was the absolute maximum I could afford (in terms of budget and space) and without any doubt it's also the best piano for me.

A particular thing I like is the dynamic weight of the keys. While the static weight is probably the same as the NU1X, the dynamic weight is higher. Initially that caused a very slight pain in my forearms after the first two days, but not anymore. However I can do soft trills now with a precision I could never do on regular digital pianos before.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/24/19 08:22 PM

CyberGene, hopefully at some point (past the honeymoon) you’ll have the time to run a VST through the on-board speakers using the built-in audio interface; and then compare the results (in every respect) to the N1X’s native sound.
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/24/19 08:27 PM

Months ago I tried the NV10 and thought that this would be the piano I'll buy when I retire in two years.
Now I'm beginning to wonder whether I should choose the N1X.
There wasn't one on the floor at Sam Ash. And I don't know of a Yamaha dealer in town. Gotta do some research ...
Posted By: ando

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/24/19 10:16 PM

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Months ago I tried the NV10 and thought that this would be the piano I'll buy when I retire in two years.
Now I'm beginning to wonder whether I should choose the N1X.
There wasn't one on the floor at Sam Ash. And I don't know of a Yamaha dealer in town. Gotta do some research ...

By the time you do retire the N2X will be out and you'll be spoiled for choice! Hopefully by then the kinks with the NV10 have been ironed out too.
Posted By: percy64

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/24/19 11:17 PM

I'll be heading back to the shop tomorrow to try the N1X head to head with the NV10. I really want to prefer the N1X but I need to convince myself that the action really is as good - on everything else it is clear leader (bar the additional fun sounds the NV10 can make that are a bit frivolous for a serious piano smile )
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/25/19 06:51 AM

Just had an absolute "wow" moment with the piano. It's my first practice session in a week and some, and I'm getting more comfortable with the keyboard. I was just now working the Bach Prelude in C minor and around measure 19 the piano was reacting so differently than the CLP, it was "real." It felt and, most importantly, sounded like when I play on my teachers grand... the response was completely different than anything I ever got on the CLP, the N1X sounded alive and organic. It really knocked my socks off, so much I interrupted my session to come here and post. This is the longest period of time I've had to play with it so far and it's really a spectacular instrument. I'm so very pleased with the purchase.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/25/19 07:20 AM

Squidbot, I know exactly what you’re talking about smile Cheers!
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/25/19 08:22 AM

squidbot, isn't the N1X sound (engine) the same as your previous CLP-685?

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/25/19 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
squidbot, isn't the N1X sound (engine) the same as your previous CLP-685?

Kind regards,
James
x

Even if the sound engine was the same, the perception of the sound should be different due to how the action responds. The same reasoning applies to the NV10 vs. CA98/78, which have the same sound engine but an entirely different action.

But in Yamaha's case there are some differences in the sound engine. First, the set of available DSP filters is not exactly the same across the CLP and AG models. Second, the text describing the resonance model (VRM) is slightly different, but that may be a marketing decision that does not reflect the technical specs. Third, and most important, the N1X has multi-channel sound output. The CLP-685 (and the NU1X) may internally use the same multi-channel samples but the output is not multi-channel but simple stereo (similar to the NV10/CA98/78 that feature multi-channel samples and output the sound in stereo). The CFX binaural samples over headphones should be equivalent across the N1X, NU1X and CLP-685, apart from potential differences regarding the headphone amplifiers.
Posted By: tblb

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/25/19 01:03 PM

hello,

i 'm trying to make a choice between an acoustic piano with a silent system like kawai k500 atx3 and and hybrid like the n1x.
For those who has make there choice, why did you choose the hybrid way ? what about the sound without headphone ?

i'm not intend to start a shiit storm between pro and against it's a true question.

thanks
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/25/19 01:10 PM

You should really start a new thread.
Originally Posted by tblb
i 'm trying to make a choice between an acoustic piano with a silent system like kawai k500 atx3 and and hybrid like the n1x.
For those who has make there choice, why did you choose the hybrid way ? what about the sound without headphone ?
Posted By: jeffscot

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/25/19 06:16 PM


Not much N1X pricing history yet. I see, in the prices paid thread, one U.S. buyer paid $8268 including tax and delivery.
Anyone been quoted a better price?
Thinking about asking my local dealer, that doesn’t stock it, to special order.
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/25/19 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
squidbot, isn't the N1X sound (engine) the same as your previous CLP-685?


Yes, it has something to do with the way the action works with the engine e.g. my comment "the response was completely different than anything I ever got on the CLP". I was expecting the keyboard to feel great on the N1X, I didn't expect how different the experience would be and how it would color the sound of what I played. It was always clear I was playing a DP with the CLP, I don't know exactly how to describe it, but you'd never mistake it to be an acoustic. With the N1X, if you had blindfolded me I would swear up and down I was sitting at an acoustic grand. I'm really blown away.

I'd suspect people have had a similar experience with the NV10 versus the CA98 for example, but I don't actually know smile
Posted By: llyw

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/25/19 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by percy64
I'll be heading back to the shop tomorrow to try the N1X head to head with the NV10. I really want to prefer the N1X but I need to convince myself that the action really is as good - on everything else it is clear leader (bar the additional fun sounds the NV10 can make that are a bit frivolous for a serious piano smile )


i liked the n1x when i tried it, but found that the nv10 was a lot better, especially the action, so went for that instead.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/25/19 07:37 PM

Unfortunately I never had the chance to try N1X or NV10 and compare them side by side. It’s still possible that I would have preferred the NV10 smile Which doesn’t actually matter because I like everything about the piano experience I have with the N1X. Even with acoustic pianos people prefer one action or the other. I think with hybrid grand pianos there’s already a realism achieved that is so high it’s only about personal preference and not so much about deficiencies, faults or anything wrong with any of the instruments.
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/25/19 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Unfortunately I never had the chance to try N1X or NV10 and compare them side by side. It’s still possible that I would have preferred the NV10 smile Which doesn’t actually matter because I like everything about the piano experience I have with the N1X. Even with acoustic pianos people prefer one action or the other. I think with hybrid grand pianos there’s already a realism achieved that is so high it’s only about personal preference and not so much about deficiencies, faults or anything wrong with any of the instruments.

Indeed. A few days ago I tried the NV10 and N3X side by side (both with headphones only, so I assume the N3X was a good stand-in for the N1X experience). Of course I'm biased, so I liked the NV10 more smile but the N3X felt very good too. I'm sure I would be very happy with the N1X too - and I'm pretty sure the same would be true for most (if not all) of the N1X owners here if they had an NV10 instead.
These hybrids are simply a joy to play. (Anecdote: Over in the ABF there's this MOYD thread where people pledge to play the piano at least once every day. I feel that club is kind of useless for me, as I have a hard time not to play my piano at least once a day, for example when I'm travelling grin).
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/27/19 11:57 PM

I discovered a totally unknown to me composer Sergei Bortkiewicz yesterday. There is a 9-CD set with the complete piano music on the streaming services. I liked a prelude which didn't seem very difficult. Played it last night to get familiar and recorded it an hour ago:


The piece explores well the dynamic range of the piano. I tried my best to play the fff parts but I think my fingers have always been kind of weak, so I'm not sure if I could extract all that was possible, plus I am a bit afraid treating my new piano badly laugh (And there's a final low and loud note that I hold for long so that you can see when the piano starts looping laugh it's not that bad and is barely audible but anyway, I know you guys love these things)
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/28/19 12:40 AM

Originally Posted by CyberGene

The piece explores well the dynamic range of the piano... I know you guys love these things)


I do love listening to you play.

Are you recording the CFX binaural sample in wav and then inserting it directly into whatever video editor you're using?

God Bless,
David
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/28/19 12:48 AM

Originally Posted by David B
Originally Posted by CyberGene

The piece explores well the dynamic range of the piano... I know you guys love these things)


I do love listening to you play.

Are you recording the CFX binaural sample in wav and then inserting it directly into whatever video editor you're using?

God Bless,
David


Thank you smile Yes, it’s a WAV file on the flash drive. The only thing I do is to normalize in audacity the volume to -1dB since it’s a bit quiet. And then merge with the video in iMovie.
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/28/19 01:24 AM

Originally Posted by CyberGene

Thank you smile Yes, it’s a WAV file on the flash drive. The only thing I do is to normalize in audacity the volume to -1dB since it’s a bit quiet. And then merge with the video in iMovie.


It sounds really good. The N1X CFX has a very smooth sound and you control it well. At first I liked the Bosendorfer better, but the CFX binaural experience is really speaking to me. Every time I load one of my VST's I end up coming back pretty quickly to the CFX/Bosendorfer.

Thanks for sharing.

God Bless,
David
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/28/19 02:00 AM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
I discovered a totally unknown to me composer Sergei Bortkiewicz yesterday. There is a 9-CD set with the complete piano music on the streaming services. I liked a prelude which didn't seem very difficult. Played it last night to get familiar and recorded it an hour ago:


The piece explores well the dynamic range of the piano. I tried my best to play the fff parts but I think my fingers have always been kind of weak, so I'm not sure if I could extract all that was possible, plus I am a bit afraid treating my new piano badly laugh (And there's a final low and loud note that I hold for long so that you can see when the piano starts looping laugh it's not that bad and is barely audible but anyway, I know you guys love these things)

Great as usual! grin

Does 'familiarization" for a single evening include memorization? Because am I seeing wrong that you are playing without a score on your music rest? Count me impressed! thumb

(And why are you not cross-posting this/these piece(s) to either here or here so other PW members, who don't happen to be members of the digital forum, can also enjoy your pieces/playing?)
Posted By: rach3master

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/28/19 06:57 AM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
I discovered a totally unknown to me composer Sergei Bortkiewicz yesterday. There is a 9-CD set with the complete piano music on the streaming services. I liked a prelude which didn't seem very difficult. Played it last night to get familiar and recorded it an hour ago:


The piece explores well the dynamic range of the piano. I tried my best to play the fff parts but I think my fingers have always been kind of weak, so I'm not sure if I could extract all that was possible, plus I am a bit afraid treating my new piano badly laugh (And there's a final low and loud note that I hold for long so that you can see when the piano starts looping laugh it's not that bad and is barely audible but anyway, I know you guys love these things)

It sounds nice. Good playing!

You should also try his Op. 6 No. 1. It also isn't very difficult and sounds a bit like a Chopin Nocturne.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/28/19 08:32 AM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Does 'familiarization" for a single evening include memorization? Because am I seeing wrong that you are playing without a score on your music rest? Count me impressed! thumb

The N1X is a grand piano form-factor, the scores are a bit high, they are not visible in the video laugh BTW, that's a point I'm still deciding whether a cons or a pros. The higher positioning of the note rest is good for me since I'm relatively tall and so the scores are in front of my eyes. On the other hand I need to sometimes look at my fingers and that makes it difficult to move my head constantly up and down frown

Quote

(And why are you not cross-posting this/these piece(s) to either here or here so other PW members, who don't happen to be members of the digital forum, can also enjoy your pieces/playing?)

Not sure why, I've actually never participated so much in other sub-forums than the digital one. I've read a few threads there and it's too scary for me, people are so professional and good, maybe I'm afraid of being too harshly dismissed laugh People are obsessed with the quality of every single note, which is entirely right, but I'm not sure I am that good frown

Originally Posted by rach3master
It sounds nice. Good playing!

You should also try his Op. 6 No. 1. It also isn't very difficult and sounds a bit like a Chopin Nocturne.

Yes, I've listened through a lot of his music, it's a mix between Chopin, Rachmaninov and Scriabin! BTW, it's a strange coincidence, my mother in law, who's a piano teacher, saw my video and said I should also try the Op.6 No.1 laugh Well, seems like a logical choice, thank you!
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/28/19 08:45 AM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Quote

(And why are you not cross-posting this/these piece(s) to either here or here so other PW members, who don't happen to be members of the digital forum, can also enjoy your pieces/playing?)

Not sure why, I've actually never participated so much in other sub-forums than the digital one. I've read a few threads there and it's too scary for me, people are so professional and good, maybe I'm afraid of being too harshly dismissed laugh People are obsessed with the quality of every single note, which is entirely right, but I'm not sure I am that good frown

You are!!! Don't be so self-critical! You're pieces are definitely worth listening to and can give pleasure. And having listened to many of the pieces posted by others, I think yours would fit right in. Why don't you do a little test post and see what feedback you get smile thumb
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/28/19 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Does 'familiarization" for a single evening include memorization? Because am I seeing wrong that you are playing without a score on your music rest? Count me impressed! thumb

The N1X is a grand piano form-factor, the scores are a bit high, they are not visible in the video laugh BTW, that's a point I'm still deciding whether a cons or a pros. The higher positioning of the note rest is good for me since I'm relatively tall and so the scores are in front of my eyes. On the other hand I need to sometimes look at my fingers and that makes it difficult to move my head constantly up and down frown

I had the same issue when I got the NV10. You'll get used to it and it will then feel absolutely normal. Looking up/down between score and fingers won't be a problem either. Well, at least that's how it was for me...
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/28/19 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Does 'familiarization" for a single evening include memorization? Because am I seeing wrong that you are playing without a score on your music rest? Count me impressed! thumb

The N1X is a grand piano form-factor, the scores are a bit high, they are not visible in the video laugh BTW, that's a point I'm still deciding whether a cons or a pros. The higher positioning of the note rest is good for me since I'm relatively tall and so the scores are in front of my eyes. On the other hand I need to sometimes look at my fingers and that makes it difficult to move my head constantly up and down frown

I had the same issue when I got the NV10. You'll get used to it and it will then feel absolutely normal. Looking up/down between score and fingers won't be a problem either. Well, at least that's how it was for me...

That's good to know. I am already getting used to it, it doesn't bother me as during the first days. Previously on the NU1X there was another problem with the low positioning: the open note rest with scores on it would get in the way of my hands smile
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/28/19 12:51 PM

Moving from grands to uprights, I've had the opposite experience. It's amazing how much more I can concentrate on the score and my fingers due to the close distance and low height of the upright music rest. It is what it is, and on the grands it helps if you focus on your posture as well.

My wife noticed this too, she has taken to holding the lesson book on front of the fallboard for my daughter while she is practicing smirk

Talk about our first world problems, eh?
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/28/19 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
Moving from grands to uprights, I've had the opposite experience. It's amazing how much more I can concentrate on the score and my fingers due to the close distance and low height of the upright music rest. It is what it is, and on the grands it helps if you focus on your posture as well.

My wife noticed this too, she has taken to holding the lesson book on front of the fallboard for my daughter while she is practicing smirk

Talk about our first world problems, eh?

As every other minor first world problem, this too has been solved (in contrast to the major first world problems wink):
https://www.grandstandforpiano.com/
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/28/19 02:09 PM

Good God man.... Have you no decency?! You post that kind of thing in a public forum?

If my wife ever sees that, I'll be forced to buy that abomination. Edit your post!
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/28/19 02:26 PM

Wow! A piece of plastic for $150. Such a bargain. smile
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/28/19 02:40 PM

Well, there's a niche, you can make them and sell them for $100 wink
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/28/19 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by JoBert

As every other minor first world problem, this too has been solved (in contrast to the major first world problems wink):
https://www.grandstandforpiano.com/


Why is my first impulse, "cool, I need one of those"?

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Wow! A piece of plastic for $150. Such a bargain. smile


shocked

I don't need one that bad.

God Bless,
David
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/28/19 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by David B

I don't need one that bad.


Same. I can get access to all of raw materials, Glowforge and X-Carve for way less than that.
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/28/19 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by Gombessa


Same. I can get access to all of raw materials, Glowforge and X-Carve for way less than that.


I was thinking how I can build one out of wood and paint it gloss black. I can put felt on the contact points and it would probably cost less than 20 dollars.

God Bless,
David
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/28/19 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by David B


I was thinking how I can build one out of wood and paint it gloss black. I can put felt on the contact points and it would probably cost less than 20 dollars.

God Bless,
David


My thoughts exactly (especially the felt to protect the finish). And I think adjustments can be made to account for the non-adjustable nature of the music rests on the NV10/N1X so that it's not quite as slanted back.
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/28/19 04:47 PM

Don't they make clear-plastic clipboards?
Do they make one oversized, like the music desk in question?
If so ... Office Depot could become our musical supply house.
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/28/19 04:48 PM

Geez, I should make one and sell it for $75, I think I'd still be making $65 profit!

And, as with CyberGene, I'm also tall and the higher music rest is just what the doctor ordered. Literally, well at least the physical therapist, I was having back pain while playing after about 1/2 hour on the CLP-685 where the music rest is on the fallboard. I had a video taken of my playing posture and it turns out I was subconsciously hunching over to read the music. My PT had me figure out a way to get the music higher. I wound up having this to put on top of the CLP: The Grand Stand

With the N1X, the height is just perfect where I can sit up straight and see the music and all my back pain is gone, as well as having to haul out the ugly plastic stand every time I want to practice.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/28/19 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by Chrispy

And, as with CyberGene, I'm also tall and the higher music rest is just what the doctor ordered. Literally, well at least the physical therapist, I was having back pain while playing after about 1/2 hour on the CLP-685 where the music rest is on the fallboard. I had a video taken of my playing posture and it turns out I was subconsciously hunching over to read the music.


I'm 5'10, and the height of the music desk on a grand is usually fine, but it's the distance that's starting to get to me (and both the height and distance are noticeable issues for my 5yo). Most grands allow you to pull the music desk forward, but honestly I never bother to do so since it's not THAT much of a problem. But I still notice the closer distance and lower orientation on uprights is a benefit when really concentrating on learning new works.

If I rolled my own "Grand Stand" device, I don't think I would use clear acrylic. It strikes me as a bit 60's Space Age retro TBH. And I think it would look like there's some kind of jerry-rigged CPAP machine bolted to the piano...
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/28/19 04:56 PM

Well, I can see a use case for a very small child or for example the lady in the video. She obviously uses bifocal glasses so she has to tilt her neck back to be able to read through the lower part of the lenses. Looks uncomfortable indeed. She also doesn't look like the typical DIYer. smile
I can imagine that this target audience deems 150$ a cheap price to pay.
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/28/19 04:56 PM

Grand Stand ... only $16.95
Now that's a sensible alternative.
Posted By: JoeT

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/28/19 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Wow! A piece of plastic for $150. Such a bargain. smile

You can buy a LED lamp at below $5.

You can buy the same LED lamp as a "piano music stand lamp" at up to $500.
Posted By: karvala

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/28/19 05:30 PM

If only they sold a gadget that would play the instrument as well for me....Think of how much time it would save!
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/28/19 05:55 PM

They did a century ago (the player piano) and they do today (Disklavier and the like for acoustic pianos, and MIDI player software for digital pianos).
Originally Posted by karvala
If only they sold a gadget that would play the instrument as well for me....Think of how much time it would save!
Posted By: dancingfish

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/28/19 07:07 PM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by David B

I was thinking how I can build one out of wood and paint it gloss black. I can put felt on the contact points and it would probably cost less than 20 dollars.


My thoughts exactly (especially the felt to protect the finish). And I think adjustments can be made to account for the non-adjustable nature of the music rests on the NV10/N1X so that it's not quite as slanted back.


Great idea. There's a Tap Plastics near me where I've had a clear plastic slanted table top desk made for calligraphy/lettering for about $16. I'm sure they'd be able to make one that would work for a music stand extension for less than or close to $20, at whatever size I'd like. I'm fairly short and am a little concerned about the height of the music stands on the N1X/NV10, which are the two I'm considering for upgrade.

If you guys make yours, please post pictures!
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/28/19 07:42 PM

Can I make one from cardboard? Or does it have to be reinforced ABS (otherwise known as plastic)?
Posted By: Azzawaba

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/28/19 09:40 PM

The Yamaha Hybrid pianos sounds much better live than recorded and played back here and on youtube etc. I think the psychoacoustic experience when playing on it yourself live makes you believe it is the real deal. That is a good thing, I do not want to say that the Hybrids are bad, just that when recorded, no matter what, it is so obvious that it is not the real deal, it is very uninspiring and quite boring to listen to. My point? Those who buy these hybrids get all the benefits! and do not suffer from the boring and uninspiring experience as listeners do. And for the majority who buys these, I believe it is for her self and not her surroundings. :-)
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/28/19 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by Azzawaba
The Yamaha Hybrid pianos sounds much better live than recorded and played back here and on youtube etc. I think the psychoacoustic experience when playing on it yourself live makes you believe it is the real deal. That is a good thing, I do not want to say that the Hybrids are bad, just that when recorded, no matter what, it is so obvious that it is not the real deal, it is very uninspiring and quite boring to listen to. My point? Those who buy these hybrids get all the benefits! and do not suffer from the boring and uninspiring experience as listeners do. And for the majority who buys these, I believe it is for her self and not her surroundings. :-)

I tend to agree. Listening to my recording above is not comparable to how I feel behind the piano even in that particular case with headphones and binaural sound. And then it’s even better when playing on speakers. These are instruments for having a love affair with smile
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/29/19 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Does 'familiarization" for a single evening include memorization? Because am I seeing wrong that you are playing without a score on your music rest? Count me impressed! thumb

The N1X is a grand piano form-factor, the scores are a bit high, they are not visible in the video laugh BTW, that's a point I'm still deciding whether a cons or a pros. The higher positioning of the note rest is good for me since I'm relatively tall and so the scores are in front of my eyes. On the other hand I need to sometimes look at my fingers and that makes it difficult to move my head constantly up and down frown

I had the same issue when I got the NV10. You'll get used to it and it will then feel absolutely normal. Looking up/down between score and fingers won't be a problem either. Well, at least that's how it was for me...


Ok, I understand that the music rest on an cabinet DP or on a grand stands higher than on an upright. The following are the height values I got from the specs:
- Kawai CA97: 92.5 cm
- Kawai CA98: 94.0 cm
- Kawai NV10: 92.5 cm

- Yamaha CLP 685: 102cm
- Yamaha CLP 675: 97 cm
- Yamaha CLP 665: 93 cm
- Yamaha N1X: 100 cm

- Yamaha CX (acoustic grand): 101 cm (103 cm on the CX 6/7)
- Kawai GL/GX (acoustic grand): 102 cm

These height values should roughly correspond to the position of the bottom of the music rest. So, the music rest on the NV10 should be the same height as on the CA97 and 1.5cm lower than on the CA98. On the N1X it sits 2cm lower than on the CLP685 and slightly higher than on other CLP models. The N1X has roughly the same height as an acoustic grand while the NV10 is ca. 10 cm lower.

Given this, I was surprised to learn than my teacher's grand should be "only" 7 cm higher than my CA98 since the music rest feels uncomfortably much higher than that. I am also confused by JoBert's comment since the music rest on the NV10 should be at exactly the same height as on his previous CA97 (Jobert: were you referring to upright vs NV10?) I would also expect the height of the keyboard/keys to the floor to be the same on all these instruments, which would mean that the bench height would not be a factor.

So, could the NV10 and N1X owners measure the actual height of the music rest?
Posted By: percy64

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/29/19 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by arc7urus


Ok, I understand that the music rest on an cabinet DP or on a grand stands higher than on an upright. The following are the height values I got from the specs:
- Kawai CA97: 92.5 cm
- Kawai CA98: 94.0 cm
- Kawai NV10: 92.5 cm

- Yamaha CLP 685: 102cm
- Yamaha CLP 675: 97 cm
- Yamaha CLP 665: 93 cm
- Yamaha N1X: 100 cm

I find the figure for the NV10 very hard to believe. To my eye it is clearly the higher than the CA98 etc and roughly the same as the N1X.

I seem to remember the overall height of the N1X and NV10 is very close
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/29/19 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by percy64
Originally Posted by arc7urus


Ok, I understand that the music rest on an cabinet DP or on a grand stands higher than on an upright. The following are the height values I got from the specs:
- Kawai CA97: 92.5 cm
- Kawai CA98: 94.0 cm
- Kawai NV10: 92.5 cm

- Yamaha CLP 685: 102cm
- Yamaha CLP 675: 97 cm
- Yamaha CLP 665: 93 cm
- Yamaha N1X: 100 cm

I find the figure for the NV10 very hard to believe. To my eye it is clearly the higher than the CA98 etc and roughly the same as the N1X.

I seem to remember the overall height of the N1X and NV10 is very close

The specs may be wrong but those are the official numbers. And that is exactly why I am confused :-)

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]


Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/29/19 01:04 PM

Isn't the "bottom of the music rest" lower than the "top of the piano"?

It's maybe two inches lower on my CLP240. SEE HERE

It was about a foot lower on my Kawai upright. SEE HERE

So I think "top of the piano" is not a useful reference point, eh?
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/29/19 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Isn't the "bottom of the music rest" lower than the "top of the piano"?

It's maybe two inches lower on my CLP240. SEE HERE

It was about a foot lower on my Kawai upright. SEE HERE

So I think "top of the piano" is not a useful reference point, eh?

Depends on the instrument. If the music rest is placed like on an upright, i.e. on the fallboard, then you are right: the height of the instrument says nothing about the position of the rest.

But on all the instruments we were discussing (Kawai CA97, 98, NV10, Yamaha CLP 600, N1X) the music rest in not on the fallboard but mounted on the top of the DP. This means that the bottom of the music rest should at the same height as the top of the DP (plus maybe 1-2 cm). The same reasoning applies to the height of the rest on an acoustic grand. Check the next picture with a CA97, NV10, CLP675 and N1X.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/29/19 02:06 PM

High up is a good place for the music stand. Especially for taller people, like me. Especially for people with degenerating disks, like me.
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/29/19 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by arc7urus
Ok, I understand that the music rest on an cabinet DP or on a grand stands higher than on an upright. The following are the height values I got from the specs:
- Kawai CA97: 92.5 cm
- Kawai CA98: 94.0 cm
- Kawai NV10: 92.5 cm
...
So, could the NV10 and N1X owners measure the actual height of the music rest?

It's a mistake in the specs (a remnant from the CA97 specs?).

My NV10 is 97cm high, without the music rest.

The bottom of the music rest, i.e. that part that the book/tablet actually sits on, adds another 1-1.5cm (because it's slanted).
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/29/19 05:28 PM

You all talking about 2-3cm differences smile

Here's what I'm deailng with:

NV10: (about 9-10" high off the white keys, about 12" back from the front of the piano)
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

U3: (about 4" high off the white keys, about 6" back from the front of the piano)
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

That's a huge difference in terms of adjusting your focus and attention between score and keys/fingers.
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/29/19 06:56 PM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
You all talking about 2-3cm differences smile

Hey, it's 4.5cm! wink

Originally Posted by Gombessa
That's a huge difference in terms of adjusting your focus and attention between score and keys/fingers.

~5.5in (~14cm), that is indeed more substantial (and probably closer to what CyberGene experiences, going from the NU1X to the N1X). For me, already the 4.5cm were an adjustment - I can't imagine 14cm. wink
Posted By: Cheshire Chris

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/29/19 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
High up is a good place for the music stand. Especially for taller people, like me. Especially for people with degenerating disks, like me.


Not if, like me, you wear varifocals, where the close-focus part of the lens is at the bottom. I'm fine on my stage piano where I'm looking down at the music, but on my piano teacher's Steinway I'm looking straight ahead at it, and it's really difficult to focus. It seems silly to have to get "piano glasses" for one lesson a week!
Posted By: oneilt130

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/29/19 08:16 PM

Originally Posted by Cheshire Chris
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
High up is a good place for the music stand. Especially for taller people, like me. Especially for people with degenerating disks, like me.


Not if, like me, you wear varifocals, where the close-focus part of the lens is at the bottom. I'm fine on my stage piano where I'm looking down at the music, but on my piano teacher's Steinway I'm looking straight ahead at it, and it's really difficult to focus. It seems silly to have to get "piano glasses" for one lesson a week!

Since we have now devolved completely away from the piano aspect of the N1X and into various sight related topics I will throw in my two cents. I also have multifocal lenses for regular wear that are a bit of a pain when playing the piano. Fortunately I also have a pair of glasses just for working at the computer that are single focus for very near distance. These are great for playing the piano.

Now to circle this back around to the N1X it would be interesting if someone were to post recordings of the same music played with the CFX and the Bosendorfer to compare the two.
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/29/19 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by arc7urus

But on all the instruments we were discussing (Kawai CA97, 98, NV10, Yamaha CLP 600, N1X) the music rest in not on the fallboard but mounted on the top of the DP


On the CLP-685 the music rest is not on the top like the rest of the CLP series upright styles, it's actually built in to the fallboard so it's quite a bit lower than the other CLP's.

You can see how different it is here: https://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical_instruments/pianos/clavinova/index.html

It's that strip on the fallboard, and it folds down to make the rest.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/29/19 08:43 PM

Originally Posted by oneilt130
Now to circle this back around to the N1X it would be interesting if someone were to post recordings of the same music played with the CFX and the Bosendorfer to compare the two.

I can do this, although I’ve already had a few glasses of wine... laugh
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/30/19 08:47 AM

I just want to praise David B, CyberGene, Chrispy and all those with N1X's contributing to this thread. Yours are the only real independent (non-reseller/vendor/OEM) reviews of this piano around! Shockingly, Youtube still has no independent reviews of the N1X even two months after NAMM! Keep your comments up! smile

If one of you were to post an independent product review to Youtube, you would literally be the first shocked shocked
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/30/19 05:49 PM

Thanks Tyrone. My biggest concern is that I’ve not even been playjng for 3 years yet so I don’t feel qualified to do a review. I just don’t know enough yet nor am I confident enough in my playing ability to give a demo to a wider audience than here on pw.
Posted By: KevinM

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/30/19 07:09 PM

Originally Posted by oneilt130
Originally Posted by Cheshire Chris
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
High up is a good place for the music stand. Especially for taller people, like me. Especially for people with degenerating disks, like me.


Not if, like me, you wear varifocals, where the close-focus part of the lens is at the bottom. I'm fine on my stage piano where I'm looking down at the music, but on my piano teacher's Steinway I'm looking straight ahead at it, and it's really difficult to focus. It seems silly to have to get "piano glasses" for one lesson a week!

Since we have now devolved completely away from the piano aspect of the N1X and into various sight related topics I will throw in my two cents. I also have multifocal lenses for regular wear that are a bit of a pain when playing the piano. Fortunately I also have a pair of glasses just for working at the computer that are single focus for very near distance. These are great for playing the piano.


Luckily for me, my piano is literally behind me when I am sitting at my work desk. I have single focus glasses that I use when working using my computer and the glasses sit on my desk. I only ever use the same glasses when playing on my piano. Whenever I forget I know immediately I try to focus on the sheet music, just turn around and grab my glasses.

I think you would find piano glasses would be of benefit when playing at home as well. With your varifocals you usually only have a limited area that is in focus and you may then also find that reading your music and when you have to glance down at the keys it is easier to get the information you need before looking back up at the music.
Posted By: Cheshire Chris

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/30/19 08:05 PM

I’ve remembered that I do actually have a pair of reading glasses (which, since getting varifocals, I no longer wear). I’ll try them out for piano use when I have my next lesson.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/30/19 09:33 PM

Originally Posted by oneilt130
Since we have now devolved completely away from the piano aspect of the N1X and into various sight related topics I will throw in my two cents. I also have multifocal lenses for regular wear that are a bit of a pain when playing the piano. Fortunately I also have a pair of glasses just for working at the computer that are single focus for very near distance. These are great for playing the piano.

Is it because you find it still hard to read the notes at piano desk distance?

I use multifocal contact lenses for my presbyopia and find have found that they work great for reading music at piano desk distance. In fact, the only distance they don't seem to work is 0 to 6 inches. Mine are Air Optix Aqua.
Posted By: Colin Miles

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/30/19 10:10 PM

I always blamed my short-sightedness on the amount of time I spent playing the piano when young as it ended up exactly matching the distance to the piano score on my upright. Now I have varifocals, another short-sighted pair for the piano and a long distance one for Badminton and as an emergency pair in the car.
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/31/19 08:57 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by oneilt130
Since we have now devolved completely away from the piano aspect of the N1X and into various sight related topics I will throw in my two cents. I also have multifocal lenses for regular wear that are a bit of a pain when playing the piano. Fortunately I also have a pair of glasses just for working at the computer that are single focus for very near distance. These are great for playing the piano.

Is it because you find it still hard to read the notes at piano desk distance?

I use multifocal contact lenses for my presbyopia and find have found that they work great for reading music at piano desk distance. In fact, the only distance they don't seem to work is 0 to 6 inches. Mine are Air Optix Aqua.

Well, multi focal contact lenses may be easier to use than multi focal glasses. Never tried them. Multi focal glasses will have their own focal zones/areas, depending on the prescription and type of lens. If I use my multi focal glasses to work with a wide computer monitor (or two monitors) or to read a score, then I have to keep my eyes roughly on the same position and move my head around to keep things in focus at close distance. This Is not feasible while playing the piano because once I look down at the keyboard and then up again at the score, chances are the text will be out of focus. So, I have to use single focus glasses for work and playing the piano...

Hopefully the n1x owners will bring this thread back to the topic wink
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/31/19 09:27 PM

It would be interesting for a current Novus owner to go and buy an N1X, so we can get a hands-on comparison (thread).
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/31/19 09:36 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14
It would be interesting for a current Novus owner to go and buy an N1X, so we can get a hands-on comparison (thread).

From the other thread, jgbs is turning in his Novus and might be getting an N1X he says, but it doesn't sound like it will be soon. But the new Novus patch is coming in a few days. Either the Novus owners who are currently struggling will become wildly ecstatic, or perhaps others of them might trade for N1X's also - so eventually, their probably be some reviews by owners that have (had) both.
Posted By: JoeT

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/31/19 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14
It would be interesting for a current Novus owner to go and buy an N1X, so we can get a hands-on comparison (thread).

When I win the lottery (which I don't play), I promise, I will get both. My forum signature will be adjusted accordingly. wink
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/31/19 10:47 PM

Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Pete14
It would be interesting for a current Novus owner to go and buy an N1X, so we can get a hands-on comparison (thread).

When I win the lottery (which I don't play), I promise, I will get both. My forum signature will be adjusted accordingly. wink

JoeT, want to come and further comment on this old idea of yours? I've been using it BTW, and it works great (despite naysayers wink )
Posted By: JoeT

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 03/31/19 11:46 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
JoeT, want to come and further comment on this old idea of yours? I've been using it BTW, and it works great (despite naysayers wink )

I posted two long comments in that thread. HTH. BTW: Back in 2015, when I made that post, I finally figured out how to use a weighted action without hurting my pinkies with that light ES100 action. wink
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/01/19 12:18 AM

Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
JoeT, want to come and further comment on this old idea of yours? I've been using it BTW, and it works great (despite naysayers wink )

I posted two long comments in that thread. HTH. BTW: Back in 2015, when I made that post, I finally figured out how to use a weighted action without hurting my pinkies with that light ES100 action. wink

My current bane is pinkies too! laugh
Posted By: JoeT

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/01/19 12:59 AM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
My current bane is pinkies too! laugh

To avoid injury, immediately stop practice before it hurts.

The actual issue is not the key weight itself, but the key bottoming out, while there is still muscle activity.

Light weight keys amplify the problem, because their inertia is really low, so they reach high speeds with less effort, before being abruptly stopped again.
Posted By: jgbs

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/01/19 06:41 AM

Originally Posted by Pete14
It would be interesting for a current Novus owner to go and buy an N1X, so we can get a hands-on comparison (thread).

As said Tyrone Slothrop I will probably change my NV10 for a N1X but not before early may. And of course I will write my opinion on the différences.
I owned the NV10 for 5 months and even if I change because of the buzzing issue that seems have no solution, I had time to appreciate the great quality of the instrument specialy concerning the action and feeling when palying.
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/01/19 06:51 AM

Originally Posted by oneilt130

Now to circle this back around to the N1X it would be interesting if someone were to post recordings of the same music played with the CFX and the Bosendorfer to compare the two.


Well here you go! Back on topic. A few things to note about what I've done in this video. First, over headphones, the binaural CFX is a clear winner. So I wanted to try to capture what I hear when I play without headphones. So what I've done is placed a microphone about where my head would be when I play. Unfortunately I don't have a super music recording mic, but I used my Blue Yeti which I think will do a better job than what's built in to my Surface Pro. Second, this is not me playing. I wish! This is having the instrument play a midi file from the diskclavier archive so it is a) consistent and b) something you actually want to listen to. I chose this Nocturne as it demonstrates pretty good coverage of the notes and dynamics. I hope this isn't too "cheaty" I wanted to give a fair consistent comparison.

I have to apologize, the heater fan came on right in the middle of the Imperial and it sounds like it got picked up frown If it's truly distracting let me know and I'll try recording again and turn the heat off. If you are actually watching you'll see me get up and try to turn the heat off but the fan keeps going for a while even after being turned off. Ah well, you get to hear what is sounds like at Chrispy's house.

Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/01/19 06:53 AM

When I switched from ES7 to a NU1X I noticed how hard bottoming the NU1X was but I especially liked that. After a month of playing it I went to test the CA78 and one particular aspect I disliked about it was how soft bottoming it was. It’s so soft that I can’t feel at which point the sound should be generated, so it felt very unrealistic. I’m wondering if that’s a trait Kawai also have in their grand pianos, hence NV10.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/01/19 07:06 AM

Christy, nice comparison. I tried to do a comparison too but since I used headphones I realized CFX binaural is miles ahead of the other sounds. The other piano sounds are nasal and mono like, reminding me of Pianoteq somehow and I’ve already described that in another thread. Even if I switch the binaural (stereo optimization for other voices) off, it’s still nasty. I felt they are so uninspiring I wouldn’t play well a piece because of that fact smile I will record a comparison through speakers, on a USB drive though, simply because Bösendorfer and the rest are excellent through the speakers and I can deep dive into the music.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/01/19 07:52 AM

Chrispy, what happened to squidbot?

James
x
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/01/19 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Chrispy, what happened to squidbot?

James
x

He was showing how he can change even after 30 years smile
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/01/19 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Chrispy, what happened to squidbot?

James
x


http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2831600/re-username-significance.html#Post2831600
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/01/19 08:32 AM

Tyrone you’re in a way our databot laugh
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/01/19 08:44 AM

Got it, thanks!
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/01/19 08:49 AM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Tyrone you’re in a way our databot laugh

D@mn. That's what happens when one's memory is a big garbage can of useless facts (and musical notes that don't connect). LOL
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/01/19 09:04 AM

Apparently you have great memorization skills. I envy people with that ability. I can memorize easily only music. It’s relatively easy for me to learn music and then sing, whistle or play it on the piano. But for all else I’ve always been pathologically bad at remembering. I couldn’t remember a single date or year in history classes. I remember birthdays of only my mom, dad, siblings... Which is why I liked mathematics, physics, etc. where you can virtually deduce entire laws and stuff through logic and equations smile
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/01/19 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Apparently you have great memorization skills. I envy people with that ability. I can memorize easily only music. It’s relatively easy for me to learn music and then sing, whistle or play it on the piano. But for all else I’ve always been pathologically bad at remembering. I couldn’t remember a single date or year in history classes. I remember birthdays of only my mom, dad, siblings...

I only remember types of things that I'm interested in. I'm especially bad at remembering data. Whether numbers or dates. On the other hand, my wife who is Russian, has a very poor long-term member, but remembers the birthdays of about everyone she knows. I think there is a social mechanism at work there also. In the West, remembering birthdays is not so critical. Among Russians, forgetting a birthday and you will be ostracized from an entire social circle.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Which is why I liked mathematics, physics, etc. where you can virtually deduce entire laws and stuff through logic and equations smile

I think I am right on the cusp of disaster. Where I still use formulas to derive other formulas or in physics use dimensional analysis to derive things. I have a friend from school who had marginally better memory than me and he already was over the line. Where he would derive nothing and would remember all the formulas. For example, he would remember formulas which would be easily derivable as infinite series, say by mathematical induction. This actually made him less smart. Because whenever he arrived at something not memorized, he was stuck. I could have easily been him had I the misfortune of having slightly better memory....
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/01/19 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
I went to test the CA78 and one particular aspect I disliked about it was how soft bottoming it was. It’s so soft that I can’t feel at which point the sound should be generated, so it felt very unrealistic. I’m wondering if that’s a trait Kawai also have in their grand pianos, hence NV10.


You'll be happy to hear it's not. As far as I can tell, it's mainly a Grand Feel characteristic to really dampen the sound of the action (can't speak to the ES7). Neither Kawai acoustics nor the NV10 bottom out softly/mushy. They use a thick felt punching at the front rail (I think most acoustics do). Of course, the acoustic actions are nowhere near as quiet as a Grand Feel!
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/01/19 02:21 PM

After some more time spent with the N1X I have one impression that I can confirm and one new observation.

The impression:
- The sound through speakers is absolutely fantastic. Even though the CFX binaural is unequivocally a great sound for playing through headphones, the multichannel CFX through speakers is ultimately better because that's what a piano is: you hear sound coming from everywhere, you don't have anything on your head and ears, and you feel vibrations in the air and through your fingers and body. There were previously some doubts as to the quality of the speaker system, placement and direction of speakers. I haven't played a NV10, however I have played all the major digital pianos + NU1X and IMO the N1X is much better than the rest. YMMV but to my ears it sounds and feels exactly like e real grand piano in front of me. I've tested a N1 and a N3 some years ago and I was blown away by the N3 and underwhelmed by the N1. Now, I feel blown away in the same way by the N1X. I guess the N3X would be even better, but I haven't tested it. In any case, I will try to play on speakers as much as I can. Kudos to Yamaha for offering a premium hybrid piano that is perfect both through speakers and headphones.

The observation:
- Real grand piano actions, despite having double repetition lever, still have their limits in terms of how much you should lift the key before repeating it smile For instance if I play very quickly two notes one after another and it happens that I lift the key very slightly, say only 1-2mm, the repeat will be silent and so I've already had silent notes. Now, before we fully elaborate on "sudden silent note issue", let me clarify this is absolutely normal and I've experienced that on grand pianos too, including a Steinway D in our biggest concert hall in Sofia (which I had the pleasure to play for almost a week many years ago when participating in a jazz masterclass). With that in mind, my ES7 had triple sensors but surprisingly their location is such that it would allow for a repetition that's closer to the bottom than the N1X smile I guess there are some areas digital pianos might actually be even better than real grand pianos. But once again, that's not a bug or a fault, it's just the way grand piano actions work. They have the double repetition lever to allow keys to be repeated before full release (which isn't possible on upright pianos, hence not possible on the NU1X), but the double repetition lever has its limitations. However it's a "side-effect" that can be worked around. When I had my NU1X I learned to release keys fully. After I got my N1X I reversed my technique in a drastically opposed way, trying to repeat as low as possible, which sometimes resulted in silent notes, so I have calibrated my fingers now to a slightly higher position of minimum repeat. It's unconscious and happens very fast. But I though I'd mention it anyway smile
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/01/19 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I went to test the CA78 and one particular aspect I disliked about it was how soft bottoming it was. It’s so soft that I can’t feel at which point the sound should be generated, so it felt very unrealistic. I’m wondering if that’s a trait Kawai also have in their grand pianos, hence NV10.


You'll be happy to hear it's not. As far as I can tell, it's mainly a Grand Feel characteristic to really dampen the sound of the action (can't speak to the ES7). Neither Kawai acoustics nor the NV10 bottom out softly/mushy. They use a thick felt punching at the front rail (I think most acoustics do). Of course, the acoustic actions are nowhere near as quiet as a Grand Feel!


The GF/GF-II uses two felts on the front rail under the key stick to absorb the bottoming movement. Their location and thickness seems quite similar to what is found on an acoustic. Are the GF-II felts really that softer than the felts used on acoustic? Or are there other mechanical factors at play besides the stiffness of the felt? On the GF-II I am not sure if the "mushy" feeling is a result of the key pressing against the front rail felt or the "hammer" pressing against the hammer/sensor rail, which also features dampening materials.

On an acoustic the mechanical noise of the action may actually be louder than the noise of the key bottoming out. Of course, at louder dynamics the bottoming out noise will be significant, but it will be lost in the sound of the instrument. But pressing down a key silently on a grand makes the action produce quite a loud "clunk" followed by a rather subdued "thud" when the key bottoms out.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/01/19 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
For instance if I play very quickly two notes one after another and it happens that I lift the key very slightly, say only 1-2mm, the repeat will be silent and so I've already had silent notes.

You are simply talking about what he describes @ 3:58, right?

Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/01/19 02:48 PM

^ Yes, exactly. You need to release the key above the point of escapement in order to repeat. A regulation of the grand piano is done so that the repetition lever hits the drop screw at the same time the regulating screw pushes the jack. So, as a result, the jack would be able to slide back in under the knuckle only when you release the key above the escapement. The relation between the escapement point and the bottom of the key is called aftertouch. You can regulate in a way that the escapement happens very close to the bottom or higher. I guess a technician can share more details about the cons and pros of each one. I've seen other videos where there are three distances of aftertouch - one that is a medium one and most used, another one which is closer to the bottom and one that is slightly higher than the standard. To my understanding it's the pianist taste which one he prefers but I'm still wondering what's the actual difference in therms of cons/pros.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/01/19 03:00 PM

Here's a video about setting the aftertouch: Setting Aftertouch
0.060" (1.52 mm) - very wide aftertouch
0.040" (1.00 mm) - standard aftertouch
0.030" (0.76 mm) - narrow aftertouch (he says some pianist prefer it)

Those distances are the distance between escapement and bottom of the key travel at the guide pin, measured through a plastic bit with the corresponding thickness.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/01/19 03:15 PM

On an acoustic, the escapement point can be regulated to a degree. It's likely the es7 is calibrated to a different point than what you have previously experienced?
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/01/19 03:31 PM

I actually think it might be something else. Maybe the escapement point (or in the case of ES7 the repetition depth, i.e. the second sensor location) is set at the same height as in the N1X. However depending on the speed of rebound of the action it might turn out that one presses the key too quick after it has bottomed out and so it hasn't rebounded above the escapement point.

Maybe the ES7 had a quicker rebound which is to be expected since it doesn't have long hammer blow distance. The hammer travels less than in a grand piano, the leverage is different.

This problem can be solved by playing leggiero both on grands and uprights.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/01/19 03:51 PM

I think it could be any of those things you mentioned. When I took the panels off my NV10 to see the action I realized there was a lot I wasn't taking into account in my understanding of how a grand piano works.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/01/19 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
I think it could be any of those things you mentioned. When I took the panels off my NV10 to see the action I realized there was a lot I wasn't taking into account in my understanding of how a grand piano works.

Indeed. I have the bare grand piano action for my DIY project at home and I can observe it every day and there are still some situations where I just sit and imagine how it works and then go to test and see myself and realize I was wrong. The grand piano action is a very complex mechanical system that has so many side effects and quirks yet it works so great smile But there are so many combinations of what could happen... Which is why it's still hard for digital pianos to imitate it as behavior. And which is why the most expensive hybrid pianos use actual piano actions to solve that "problem" smile On one hand it seems digital actions might be "better" in one way or another but it's that 200-year old design that's almost unchanged and was created entirely as a result of solving particular problems that also turned out to be so good in being so expressive for an instrument that is the best among them all (or at least that's what we pianoworld folks must be thinking, right? wink )
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/01/19 04:24 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
The grand piano action is a very complex mechanical system that has so many side effects and quirks yet it works so great smile But there are so many combinations of what could happen... .it's that 200-year old design that's almost unchanged and was created entirely as a result of solving particular problems that also turned out to be so good in being so expressive for an instrument that is the best among them all (or at least that's what we pianoworld folks must be thinking, right? wink )


I totally agree, and I'm humbled every time I try to break the "simple" mechanical system down to try to understand it. And Cristofori and others probably did not have 1000fps slow-mo digital camera rigs to help troubleshoot their designs! In short, it's ingenious, and my hat's off to piano designers from history and at Yamaha/Kawai today, and also the countless technicians and rebuilders out there who work on and improve these actions every day.
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/01/19 06:07 PM

The almost but not quite there escapement simulation on the CLP-685 was something I had to overcome when going to play at my teachers studio, I usually start the session by playing and "missing" note for this reason. The CLP was too forgiving, and it's one of the reasons I said earlier that though I liked the CLP for a lot of reasons, it always felt like I was playing a digital piano.

Last week was my first lesson where I'd been practicing on the N1X the prior week and I definitely had fewer "missed" notes but I'm still figuring it out. I've been practicing a lot this week as my family is out of town and I'm finding I'm getting more and more used to it and my fingers are starting to figure out how to not do that.

A few posts back I was talking about having those moments playing the N1X where I was completely convinced I was playing an acoustic (or forgot I was playing a digital maybe.) This is definitely one of the reasons!
Posted By: Csillag

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/01/19 08:51 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
the multichannel CFX through speakers is ultimately better because that's what a piano is: you hear sound coming from everywhere, you don't have anything on your head and ears, and you feel vibrations in the air and through your fingers and body. There were previously some doubts as to the quality of the speaker system, placement and direction of speakers.


Sounds great. So great that I wonder:
- Does the built-in USB sound interface expose the multi-channel speaker system towards the host computer?
- Does that mean that if we have a VST with similar multi-channel sound, it should be possible to use that with the built-in sound system, to achieve more-than-stereo sound?
- Is there any such VST available currently?

Thanks.
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/01/19 09:17 PM

Originally Posted by Csillag
Originally Posted by CyberGene
the multichannel CFX through speakers is ultimately better because that's what a piano is: you hear sound coming from everywhere, you don't have anything on your head and ears, and you feel vibrations in the air and through your fingers and body. There were previously some doubts as to the quality of the speaker system, placement and direction of speakers.


Sounds great. So great that I wonder:
- Does the built-in USB sound interface expose the multi-channel speaker system towards the host computer?
- Does that mean that if we have a VST with similar multi-channel sound, it should be possible to use that with the built-in sound system, to achieve more-than-stereo sound?
- Is there any such VST available currently?

Thanks.

USB Audio does support multi-channel audio. Most VSTs also support multiple input and output channels, but the channels available to the VST depend on the (virtual) audio interface/sound card. When using USB Audio, the available channels will also depend on how the driver exposes them.

However, Yamaha should be sending stereo audio over USB. The multi-channel audio on this DP is optimized to be played using the specific internal speaker setup of N1X, which is not a standard 5.1/7.1 multi-channel setup. So, if a multi-channel signal was sent, then the consumer would need a specific driver to mix down this signal in a meaningful way. Sending a stereo signal over USB is therefore the simplest setup to cover the expected use cases.
Posted By: Csillag

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/01/19 10:04 PM

Originally Posted by arc7urus
USB Audio does support multi-channel audio.


Yes, I am aware of that. The question is whether the specific device that is integrated to this DP supports multi-channel audio. (Besides stereo, which it obviously does support.)

Originally Posted by arc7urus
The multi-channel audio on this DP is optimized to be played using the specific internal speaker setup of N1X, which is not a standard 5.1/7.1 multi-channel setup.


Yes, I understand that, but if technically, those channels are exposed on the USB audio device, then making them work for us (at some point in the future) is only a question if tweaking the software on the PC side.

Originally Posted by arc7urus
So, if a multi-channel signal was sent, then the consumer would need a specific driver to mix down this signal in a meaningful way. Sending a stereo signal over USB is therefore the simplest setup to cover the expected use cases.


For now, yes. For the future, not necessarily ... if we can find out some info about the speaker system, and find a way to meaningfully map the multi-channel output of VSTs to these channels, then I think there is a reasonable hope that we might be able to go beyond stereo, even with the VSTs, just like how the integrated sound engine. Of course this all depends on whether or not those channels are actually exposed to the PC by the integrated USB device. That's why I am asking...
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/01/19 10:32 PM

Originally Posted by Csillag
...For now, yes. For the future, not necessarily ... if we can find out some info about the speaker system, and find a way to meaningfully map the multi-channel output of VSTs to these channels, then I think there is a reasonable hope that we might be able to go beyond stereo, even with the VSTs, just like how the integrated sound engine. Of course this all depends on whether or not those channels are actually exposed to the PC by the integrated USB device. That's why I am asking...

I share your enthusiasm, but it took well over a decade for the DP manufacturers to start adopting USB Audio and even today, just a few DPs support it. I wouldn't be surprised if Dexibell, Nord start supporting multi-channel audio and send multi-channel audio over USB on their *stage pianos* in the future. Yamaha, Roland and Korg might do the same with their synths/workstations. But multi-channel audio would be a niche segment. In any case, you will need a major paradigm shift to have such functionality and flexibility available on console digital pianos...
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/01/19 10:53 PM

Pianoteq can transmit up to 5 channels; it would be nice to be able to route these channels into the N1X’s sound system, but it seems like we’ll have to wait for that paradigm shift. In the meantime we’re stuck with baby steps. Damn you, Yamaha! eek
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/01/19 11:15 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14
Pianoteq can transmit up to 5 channels; it would be nice to be able to route these channels into the N1X’s sound system, but it seems like we’ll have to wait for that paradigm shift. In the meantime we’re stuck with baby steps. Damn you, Yamaha! eek


While it seems the N1X only has two line-in ports for stereo, I'm presuming the USB Audio interface might be extensible to allow for multi-channel input? Who knows if that's actually the case, but it's not limited to physical form factor at least....
Posted By: Csillag

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/01/19 11:22 PM

Originally Posted by arc7urus
But multi-channel audio would be a niche segment. In any case, you will need a major paradigm shift to have such functionality and flexibility available on console digital pianos...


I would be happy to accept this point if providing this feature would actually require investing some serious R&D, but as far as I can tell
- Multi-channel, high-resolution USB DAC ICs are available as ready-made components (or kits). (Or at least they could be very easily licensed form any number of companies, like PreSonus etc.)
- The DP already has a nice, finely tuned, multi-channel sound system, with the appropriate EQ and all.

Given that these prerequisites are already in place, I don't think it would break the bank to connect these things up, enabling an untold number of powerful future applications of the aforementioned sound system. (Including VSTs.)

But anyway, the progress is undeniable, so I'm not complaining.
Posted By: Csillag

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/01/19 11:25 PM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
I'm presuming the USB Audio interface might be extensible to allow for multi-channel input?


Can anyone check what is the actual embedded USB device? (Vendor ID, product ID... maybe some kernel logs when connected to a Linux computer?)
Posted By: Harpuia

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/02/19 06:28 AM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
After some more time spent with the N1X I have one impression that I can confirm and one new observation.

The impression:
- The sound through speakers is absolutely fantastic. Even though the CFX binaural is unequivocally a great sound for playing through headphones, the multichannel CFX through speakers is ultimately better because that's what a piano is: you hear sound coming from everywhere, you don't have anything on your head and ears, and you feel vibrations in the air and through your fingers and body. There were previously some doubts as to the quality of the speaker system, placement and direction of speakers. I haven't played a NV10, however I have played all the major digital pianos + NU1X and IMO the N1X is much better than the rest. YMMV but to my ears it sounds and feels exactly like e real grand piano in front of me. I've tested a N1 and a N3 some years ago and I was blown away by the N3 and underwhelmed by the N1. Now, I feel blown away in the same way by the N1X. I guess the N3X would be even better, but I haven't tested it. In any case, I will try to play on speakers as much as I can. Kudos to Yamaha for offering a premium hybrid piano that is perfect both through speakers and headphones.

The observation:
- Real grand piano actions, despite having double repetition lever, still have their limits in terms of how much you should lift the key before repeating it smile For instance if I play very quickly two notes one after another and it happens that I lift the key very slightly, say only 1-2mm, the repeat will be silent and so I've already had silent notes. Now, before we fully elaborate on "sudden silent note issue", let me clarify this is absolutely normal and I've experienced that on grand pianos too, including a Steinway D in our biggest concert hall in Sofia (which I had the pleasure to play for almost a week many years ago when participating in a jazz masterclass). With that in mind, my ES7 had triple sensors but surprisingly their location is such that it would allow for a repetition that's closer to the bottom than the N1X smile I guess there are some areas digital pianos might actually be even better than real grand pianos. But once again, that's not a bug or a fault, it's just the way grand piano actions work. They have the double repetition lever to allow keys to be repeated before full release (which isn't possible on upright pianos, hence not possible on the NU1X), but the double repetition lever has its limitations. However it's a "side-effect" that can be worked around. When I had my NU1X I learned to release keys fully. After I got my N1X I reversed my technique in a drastically opposed way, trying to repeat as low as possible, which sometimes resulted in silent notes, so I have calibrated my fingers now to a slightly higher position of minimum repeat. It's unconscious and happens very fast. But I though I'd mention it anyway smile



Hi CyberGene I've recorded a few videos when I tested Yamaha AGs and other grands. Not sure if that corresponds with your experience.

The repetition of N3 in my home


N3X repetition:


N2 repetition:


NU1X repetition:


Schimmel grand repetition:
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/02/19 06:48 AM

Harpuia, your test is about speed of repetition with fully released keys. While that’s a useful test I was describing another thing: repeating a key before it’s fully released.
Posted By: Harpuia

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/02/19 07:14 AM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Harpuia, your test is about speed of repetition with fully released keys. While that’s a useful test I was describing another thing: repeating a key before it’s fully released.


I did also test if I can re-press the key when the key is not fully released. Maybe I ignored something but I didn't notice a huge difference when I tested the AGs with Yamaha grands side by side.

Another question, you mentioned that the N1X has different marketing terms for the VRM than the NU1X. The N1X seems does not have body resonance modeling. Did you notice any difference after you got N1X?
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/02/19 08:13 AM

Well, since you mentioned it, I think (or maybe it’s my imagination) but I think the resonances in the NU1X were a tiny bit more prominent. For instance there’s a piece I use to play with a specific chord that used to create a nice resonance on the NU1X and on the N1X that’s less accentuated. It can simply be the default VRM level is different. But can also be due to different VRM implementations. Or the lack of body resonance in N1X. In any case the resonances in the N1X are clearly audible and are nice and realistic. If there’s any difference it’s subtle at best.
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/02/19 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Well, since you mentioned it, I think (or maybe it’s my imagination) but I think the resonances in the NU1X were a tiny bit more prominent. For instance there’s a piece I use to play with a specific chord that used to create a nice resonance on the NU1X and on the N1X that’s less accentuated. It can simply be the default VRM level is different. But can also be due to different VRM implementations. Or the lack of body resonance in N1X. In any case the resonances in the N1X are clearly audible and are nice and realistic. If there’s any difference it’s subtle at best.

If you have the patience and find the time, could you record the effect of the VRM while silently pressing some keys?

Something like this:
https://soundcloud.com/ac-635715790/res02/s-zNH47
https://soundcloud.com/ac-635715790/res04/s-8aruV
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/02/19 05:19 PM

It's been pointed out that the latest firmware revisions on the NV10 do not support string resonance on open strings which are played without a sound, although earlier revisions did. This feature of acoustic pianos has been intentionally used by Bartok and other 20th century piano composers.

Would one of the N1X owners mind testing this on the N1X? That is, silently hold down a key all the way so that the string that key represents is considered "open," and then play some nearby keys and see if the string represented by the silently held down key also resonates?
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/02/19 05:21 PM

I’ve tested it after I received it. It works. Or do you want to hear how it sounds?
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/02/19 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
I’ve tested it after I received it. It works. Or do you want to hear how it sounds?

No, I don't need to hear it. I'm sure it works if you say it works. Thanks for confirming!

So in the case of the NV10, it was speculated that this might be related to zero velocity MIDI events or the lack of them. Does this work on the N1X no matter how slowly you press the key for the "string" being held open?
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/02/19 05:45 PM

Yep, I’ve particularly wanted to test with silently pressed keys. The N1X has key sensors so it’s easy to detect a silent key press regardless of hammer sensors.
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/02/19 06:02 PM

I can confirm that this works with the N3X, because I have recently tested this myself.
But if you'll allow me the OT-plug: The NV10's resonances, as well as the Roland LX70x's resonances (I tested the LX705), are much more pronounced than the resonances from the sound engine in the N3X. That was actually the one point I found most disappointing on the N3X. Disclaimer: The N3X may have a setting to ramp up the resonance to similar levels as those of the NV10 or LX70x that I just wasn't aware of.
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/02/19 06:56 PM

I haven't tried it yet, but apparently you can adjust the aliquot and and body resonance from the app. On the piano itself you can only adjust the string and damper resonance. I could be wrong about this, but the N1X feature page says you get more controls like the "piano room" on the CLP series. David, you had the app going right? Have you tried this? I need to get a USB->Lightning dongle, thought I had one but it was USB->USB C.

I'll take this opportunity to express a few disappointments with the piano. I do miss having the full UI like the CLP-685 had as I really hate controlling things with the "find the right note" UI. It's a pain, it's opaque and any time I have to pull out the manual to control something the UI has failed. I understand Yamaha was going for the "it's an acoustic so we need to make the UI invisible" but it seems like they could have solved it a little more elegantly.

So you could argue the app is the elegance, however the fact is, to use it I have to have a dongle of some sort. It really bugs me that Yamaha either forces me to have a wire hanging out of the front of the instrument to use this interface or buy their $100 adapter to get wifi. Really? we spend 7-8 grand on the piano and you couldn't see fit to put a $2 wifi chip in it? Also, if I want wifi, I'm unable to also have my memory stick in, I have to switch between the two because there is only one USB port they work with (the other is the "printer cable" port for the midi/audio interface.) And, it also happens that while it's nice to have the usb on the front of the instrument so I can take memory sticks in and out with ease, it's not so nice that if I want full time wifi I have a big dongle with a light on it that sticks out of the front and is very easy to dislocate with a knee or while going to adjust the volume. All in all, Yamaha cheaped out here and it's a poor design which was not though through from a customer perspective, it is clearly that they didn't want to make any changes from what they have on all their DP's for economy.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/02/19 06:59 PM

Regarding resonances (or the default level, for that matter) it’s sometimes a matter of what one is used to, also taste. I remember after having owned the NU1X for some time and then testing the CA78 I indeed discovered the resonances are more pronounced but I wasn’t sure I liked it. To me it was more like a reverb. I’m sure if I own one and then test a N1X I’ll find it lacking in terms of resonances.
Posted By: le_sacre1

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/02/19 07:44 PM

Originally Posted by Chrispy
It really bugs me that Yamaha either forces me to have a wire hanging out of the front of the instrument to use this interface or buy their $100 adapter to get wifi. Really? we spend 7-8 grand on the piano and you couldn't see fit to put a $2 wifi chip in it?


Try buying an N3X and then finding out that even if you buy adapters, there's no wifi compatibility possible, ever. smile

Though to be fair, the N3X came out way back in (late) 2016. Who could have realized back then that wireless connectivity would be something consumers expect in top-of-the-line products...
Posted By: HwyStar

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/02/19 10:39 PM

In the appendix of the N1X manual is a one or two page diagram of all the UI keys that control the piano. That may help until you get the app up and running? Yes, it is a pain to use the keys!
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/03/19 12:14 AM

Originally Posted by JoBert
I can confirm that this works with the N3X, because I have recently tested this myself.
But if you'll allow me the OT-plug: The NV10's resonances, as well as the Roland LX70x's resonances (I tested the LX705), are much more pronounced than the resonances from the sound engine in the N3X. That was actually the one point I found most disappointing on the N3X. Disclaimer: The N3X may have a setting to ramp up the resonance to similar levels as those of the NV10 or LX70x that I just wasn't aware of.

In the N1X there are settings to increase the resonance levels through the keyboard and apparently more resonance settings can be controlled via the app.

But the amount of resonance in all of these DPs is a matter of taste. I find that the Kawais have an exaggerated amount of resonance in pianist mode. I say exaggerated because it seems to be simulating the resonance very close to the strings and not from the player's position. The overall effect can be acceptable over speakers depending on the piano's character and additional sound settings, but can become unrealistic over headphones as it is more pronounced than on a acoustic piano. If you play around with Pianoteq you will need to place all the microphones inside the piano's cabinet for it to start sounding like resonance in pianist mode smile

Btw, how would you compare the AvantGrand action against the Novus?
Posted By: oneilt130

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/03/19 02:01 AM

Originally Posted by Chrispy

So you could argue the app is the elegance, however the fact is, to use it I have to have a dongle of some sort. It really bugs me that Yamaha either forces me to have a wire hanging out of the front of the instrument to use this interface or buy their $100 adapter to get wifi. Really? we spend 7-8 grand on the piano and you couldn't see fit to put a $2 wifi chip in it? Also, if I want wifi, I'm unable to also have my memory stick in, I have to switch between the two because there is only one USB port they work with (the other is the "printer cable" port for the midi/audio interface.) And, it also happens that while it's nice to have the usb on the front of the instrument so I can take memory sticks in and out with ease, it's not so nice that if I want full time wifi I have a big dongle with a light on it that sticks out of the front and is very easy to dislocate with a knee or while going to adjust the volume. All in all, Yamaha cheaped out here and it's a poor design which was not though through from a customer perspective, it is clearly that they didn't want to make any changes from what they have on all their DP's for economy.


I agree that is is absurd to have to buy a separate adapter and the way it sticks out is not at all keeping with the elegance of the Avante Grand DP's design. The conspiracy side of me thinks that the engineers probably wanted to include WiFi and Bluetooth in the X versions of the AG saying "look it costs less than 5 bucks and everything has wireless built in these days". (They also don't have to deal with determining if a wireless adapter is pluged in or not.) Then the folk from the accessories group say "Whoa, wait a minute. We charge $150 list for WiFi and $100 for Bluetooth. You can't take away that revenue stream". The engineers were then severely reprimanded for their lack of financial vision and the accessories folk get to keep on milking the overpriced external wireless adapter market. smile
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/03/19 02:16 AM

Originally Posted by oneilt130
The conspiracy side of me thinks that the engineers probably wanted to include WiFi and Bluetooth in the X versions of the AG saying "look it costs less than 5 bucks and everything has wireless built in these days".


I believe including Bluetooth (and possibly also WiFi) functionality in a product requires certification from regional authorities. This can be an expensive and complicated process, and is perhaps one of the reasons why some instruments that feature Bluetooth functionality have the feature disabled when sold in certain markets.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/03/19 02:37 AM

I wonder what's fuss (tell me what's a-happening) about the lack of wifi? Should I be web-surfing on my piano? smile
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/03/19 06:42 AM

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I wonder what's fuss (tell me what's a-happening) about the lack of wifi? Should I be web-surfing on my piano? smile


Since the app is the best way to control the piano settings it would be nice to be able to wirelessly connect to a device as a built feature. No web surfing involved more IOT.
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/03/19 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I wonder what's fuss (tell me what's a-happening) about the lack of wifi? Should I be web-surfing on my piano? smile

No, but you should be able to easily connect the N1X to the Yamaha app that simplifies using the DP. The connection options are either a USB cable or wi-fi. If you don't want cables dangling around you need to use wi-fi. But the wi-fi adapter is not built-in, so you need to buy an adapter that costs an additional 90 EUR and will stick out of the USB port. Then, the external device must be connected to the N1X's network access point, meaning it will be disconnected from your local network. So, dangling cables are definitely the way to go with the N1X...
Posted By: JoeT

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/03/19 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by arc7urus
Then, the external device must be connected to the N1X's network access point, meaning it will be disconnected from your local network

Is this the case? My P-515 is able to join an existing network according to the owners manual.
Posted By: percy64

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/03/19 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by arc7urus

No, but you should be able to easily connect the N1X to the Yamaha app that simplifies using the DP. The connection options are either a USB cable or wi-fi. If you don't want cables dangling around you need to use wi-fi. But the wi-fi adapter is not built-in, so you need to buy an adapter that costs an additional 90 EUR and will stick out of the USB port. Then, the external device must be connected to the N1X's network access point, meaning it will be disconnected from your local network. So, dangling cables are definitely the way to go with the N1X...

That all sounds shocking short sighted.

Might have been okay for a DP designed in the 20th Century but very poor for a device that has just been released.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/03/19 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by arc7urus
Then, the external device must be connected to the N1X's network access point, meaning it will be disconnected from your local network

Is this the case? My P-515 is able to join an existing network according to the owners manual.

I haven't tested it but after reading the manual that's also my understanding. The N1X will present itself as an Access Point only the first time, so that the mobile app will be able to connect to it and set configuration details such as your home wireless AP details and credentials. From there on, the Yamaha will connect itself to your AP and the mobile app will use your home network so that it can discover and communicate with the N1X. That's a pretty standard procedure for connecting smart devices to your home network and controlling them with mobile applications. I have a robot cleaner and a baby camera that were configured the same way.
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/03/19 10:46 AM

It seems to me that if you can't control the N1X from the N1X ... and you must use some other device to do so ...
Then the problem is not the lack of wifi in the N1X. It's poor UI. Poor usability. There's no excuse for that.
Where's Don Norman to weigh in on this?

So just what things must you do to the N1X that you cannot do without wifi?
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/03/19 11:00 AM

Although I agree it could have had a better interface, let's not forget it's an acoustic piano replacement. It's not a workstation or a synth. How many people would buy real grand piano and will need to tweak setting all the time? I only switch it on and play. All is great by default. Even if it's not, I can tweak it through some key combinations and that's it, it's a one-off thing. I am not here to defend the outdated interface, actually I gave 4 stars out of 5 for "features" in my review in Thomann exactly because of this fact and the lack of embedded Wi-Fi, but I would personally love to even have the entire panel hidden like in the N3X. I really see no point in them providing touch screen or any fancy UI, so that only you can put your wi-fi password in an easier way. What's the huge problem in a one-off procedure to connect your phone to the piano so that you can configure wi-fi and from there on you won't need to do that anymore unless you change your home network? Everything on the N1X can be configured through key combinations, no need for the app. I know that you can do note by note volume adjustments through the app only but that's absolutely unnecessary since the note volume is even and well chosen by Yamaha and I can't see how one would need to improve it at all. I mean, what's the fuss about the outdated UI? smile Honestly, I haven't even used the other voices lately. I just switch on and play with the CFX, either though speakers or headphones. I would be perfectly OK if the piano had only one CFX voice, a volume knob and a power button smile But that's me.
Posted By: QuasiUnaFantasia

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/03/19 11:01 AM

Careful about wishing for WiFi in your digital pianos ... What if hackers got in and made it play "Für Elise", badly, no matter what you did, unless you paid them a ransom? wink
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/03/19 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I wonder what's fuss (tell me what's a-happening) about the lack of wifi? Should I be web-surfing on my piano? smile

No, but you should be able to easily connect the N1X to the Yamaha app that simplifies using the DP. The connection options are either a USB cable or wi-fi. If you don't want cables dangling around you need to use wi-fi. But the wi-fi adapter is not built-in, so you need to buy an adapter that costs an additional 90 EUR and will stick out of the USB port. Then, the external device must be connected to the N1X's network access point, meaning it will be disconnected from your local network. So, dangling cables are definitely the way to go with the N1X...


arc7urus, are you being sarcastic when you say, “...dangling cables are definitely the way to go...,” or are you into dangling cables?

Personally, I pass on dangling cables; If I see a dangling cable when I’m playing, I have to stop, conceal the offending cable (OCD), and only then can I proceed.
Posted By: JoeT

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/03/19 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
I would be perfectly OK if the piano had only one CFX voice, a volume knob and a power button smile But that's me.

You mean like an acoustic piano which has only one voice, no volume knob and no power button?

Maybe Yamaha had a similar UI like Kawai in development for the N1X, then saw how Kawai struggled with their first implementation and pulled it in the last second reverting to the tried and tested interface from the previous generation? Who knows.

Also keeping the radio separate is a very sensible choice for a long-life product, only the price for the option is debatable (a simple USB Wi-Fi interface doesn't have to cost 75 €). The P-515 doesn't need a special setup procedure, you can enter the network credentials directly into the menu.
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/03/19 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by arc7urus
Then, the external device must be connected to the N1X's network access point, meaning it will be disconnected from your local network

Is this the case? My P-515 is able to join an existing network according to the owners manual.


The user interface of the P-515 provides the option to configure the UD-WL01 wireless adapter to be used as an access point or to join an existing network (this is how wireless connectivity is provided by several DPs). However, the N1X has a basic user interface and selecting a network and providing a password is not possible. So, unless the UD-WL01 + N1X can be setup using automated WPS and set to work in so-called "LAN infrastructure" mode, only access point mode will be available. I will check if the manuals have further info on this regarding the N1X.
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/03/19 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by Pete14
Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I wonder what's fuss (tell me what's a-happening) about the lack of wifi? Should I be web-surfing on my piano? smile

No, but you should be able to easily connect the N1X to the Yamaha app that simplifies using the DP. The connection options are either a USB cable or wi-fi. If you don't want cables dangling around you need to use wi-fi. But the wi-fi adapter is not built-in, so you need to buy an adapter that costs an additional 90 EUR and will stick out of the USB port. Then, the external device must be connected to the N1X's network access point, meaning it will be disconnected from your local network. So, dangling cables are definitely the way to go with the N1X...


arc7urus, are you being sarcastic when you say, “...dangling cables are definitely the way to go...,” or are you into dangling cables?

Personally, I pass on dangling cables; If I see a dangling cable when I’m playing, I have to stop, conceal the offending cable (OCD), and only then can I proceed.

Unfortunately it is a mix between being sarcastic and pragmatic wink I also obsess with dangling cables. However, hiding the offending USB cable might prove to be easier than having to deal with a protruding wireless adapter and setting up a network connection every time one wants to use the app. Moreover, the N1X does not seem to support Bluetooth MIDI (only BT Audio). The cabled connection would also enable MIDI connectivity. As a result, the cable indeed seems to be the better option if you want to connect this DP to an external device...
Posted By: JoeT

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/03/19 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by arc7urus
Moreover, the N1X does not seem to support Bluetooth MIDI (only BT Audio).

Though Yamaha provides Bluetooth MIDI option as well.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/03/19 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Although I agree it could have had a better interface, let's not forget it's an acoustic piano replacement. It's not a workstation or a synth. How many people would buy real grand piano and will need to tweak setting all the time? I only switch it on and play.


While I sit down and play most of the time too, having a usable interface makes a big difference in day to day operation,. Not only can I change settings and save than as new favorites that can be recalled at the touch of a button, I can also start a recording with one touch (and name it whatever I want). I can view a file system and select to playback any file from USB stick. I can start/stop the metronome, and easily adjust its volume and time signature and speed from the screen. I can select from banks of other instruments (and see what they actually are), easily make and test per-key or global adjustments, start/stop/see dozens of demo songs, etc. I don't do all of these every day, but every week I end up using some combination of advanced functions that benefit from a descriptive user interface. Some of these things my daughter really enjoys and it keeps her interested in the instrument, which is a bit of a plus for a parent, too.

If I couldn't easily do any of these things, I would just sit down and play without doing much else either. But I think you may not be appreciating the impact of friction on how you operate the device, and how your operation may change if that friction were removed?

When I play the NU1 (similar interface to the N1X), I also don't touch a thing, because I have no idea what any button does and what combinations of keypress are required, how to undo anything I might activate, or what the three-element LED is trying to say. But if the controls were more intuitive, I would likely use them more.

Just my $0.02 smile
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/03/19 01:12 PM

I can deal with the dangling cables. Mine are all hidden.
I might feel otherwise if I had a slab-on-a-stand. It would be hard to hide the clutter, eh?

@QuasiUnaFantasia: Regarding wifi, you ask "What if hackers got in and made it play Fur Elise badly ... unless you paid them a ransom?"
This is not a problem for me. That hacker doesn't need wifi to hack in. He already has direct keyboard access to the piano. That would be me. smile
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/03/19 01:16 PM

For metronome and recordings it’s really pretty easy. Well, you need to know how to select the USB as a destination and audio as format (which is fine through song + selection button until U is displayed, then a particular track is selected with the full ones denoted by dots between the digits) laugh I know it can be absurd but once you know that it’s ultra easy. I mean it’s a single click, then pressing the record button. The touch interface of Kawai also needs some prior knowledge such as you need to swipe left/right to change instruments.

As to saving registrations. What kind of registrations do you save and recall? Do you mean split and layers patches? There’s no such thing in the N1X and so there’s also no need for a dedicated interface. I’ve never ever used splits or layers on my previous Kawai ES7. Call me purist but I find almost anything different than acoustic piano, harpsichord or Rhodes cheesy laugh
Posted By: JoeT

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/03/19 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Although I agree it could have had a better interface, let's not forget it's an acoustic piano replacement. It's not a workstation or a synth. How many people would buy real grand piano and will need to tweak setting all the time? I only switch it on and play.

While I sit down and play most of the time too, having a usable interface makes a big difference in day to day operation,.

The first two weeks I played the menus of my P-515 more than the keys. wink But now I'm back to how I used the ES100 without any interface beside a few buttons: Turn on, start playing piano, stop playing piano, leave the piano to turn itself off. The rhythms were fun as well in the first weeks, as were the one button layering with strings/pads.

My only wishes left are: 1. faster boot time, 2. having a single front panel button to turn Binaural on or off independent of the headphones plug (maybe there is a hidden function + piano key combo for that?). I like to turn it off for serious practice sessions, so I can hear better what I'm doing on the keys. I still do not record myself, don't use accompaniment, rarely use the metronome and use only the two piano voices. So while I don't intend to defend to 1980s interface of the AvantGrand, I think could live with it, without missing the nested menu system too much.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/03/19 01:58 PM

I have one registration for local control off (VST mode) and touch curve light+, another for local on and normal touch curve (internal sound engine + speakers), and a couple of variations for monitoring through headphones while recording internally (and vice versa). The first two are used multiple times every day depending on who is playing. And they're easy to create, save, and shuffle without any extra help or documentation (when they work correctly, that is ;))

Yes the N1X is a bit more "purist" in focus than the Kawai, but I honestly think the interface is as Yamaha-opaque as can be (remember the CP5/50?). You shouldn't have to dig manual to hunt for a function-key combo to do things in 2019, imho!

I mean, you can't tell me that a single line dot matrix LCD wouldn't be an improvement over the three-digit LED smile
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/03/19 02:13 PM

As I said previously, I'm very bad with memory but I managed to learn the two important settings I will ever need to make:
voice + C7 (one octave below highest C): switch between binaural on/off, the actual value "ON/OFF" is displayed on the screen
function + C7: local control ON/OFF

all else that's important to me is accessed through physical buttons: changing voice, recorder, metronome
BTW, I still think physical buttons are probably better than touch screen for things like recorder. I don't want to eventually mess up (delete/overwrite) anything by unintentionally touching the wrong place on the screen. Especially since it would go black while recording. And when I decide to stop it, do I have to tap it once to wake it and then choose stop?
Posted By: JoeT

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/03/19 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
As I said previously, I'm very bad with memory but I managed to learn the two important settings I will ever need to make:
voice + C7 (one octave below highest C): switch between binaural on/off, the actual value "ON/OFF" is displayed on the screen
function + C7: local control ON/OFF

That's very useful. My P-515 doesn't have these shortcuts, so I have to dig through nested menus every time I want to change these settings.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/03/19 02:24 PM

I'm sure the shortcuts are faster than digging through a menu, too.

For something that frequently used, I would have a one-touch favorite created (and I actually do, since most of my favorites settings are for toggling headphone and speaker use).

This is starting to remind me of the command line versus GUI wars smile
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/03/19 02:41 PM

So I get that Gombessa is not for the bare-bones N1X approach, and CyberGene feels that the N1X offers everything he needs, and he also prefers the basic interface over a fancy touch screen, right?
What about we get rid of the basic buttons and fancy touch screen, and opt for voice commands?
“Alexa, play Chopin!” wink
Posted By: percy64

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/03/19 02:48 PM

I think the simple button (and key) interface of the Yamahas is preferable to touch screens, but I have grown used to it on the old Clavinova. You soon get used to how to access the functions you use every day and when you do it is faster than trying to scroll through a touch screen.

Also I worry a bit about the durability of the touch screen - not sure it is as robust and long lasting as a simple button. What happens when it goes wrong in 7 or 8 years time and spares are not available?
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/03/19 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by percy64
Also I worry a bit about the durability of the touch screen - not sure it is as robust and long lasting as a simple button. What happens when it goes wrong in 7 or 8 years time and spares are not available?

Then you go and replace it with a DIY button+key UI:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2822965/1.html

smile
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/03/19 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by percy64

Also I worry a bit about the durability of the touch screen - not sure it is as robust and long lasting as a simple button. What happens when it goes wrong in 7 or 8 years time and spares are not available?


What happens in 7-8 years when your hardware buttons fail, and spares are not available? smile IMO it's really the same issue with both, in either case a control board will likely need replacing, and whether spares are available depends on the manufacturer's service program and not on a specific technology.
Posted By: percy64

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/03/19 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by Gombessa

What happens in 7-8 years when your hardware buttons fail, and spares are not available? smile IMO it's really the same issue with both, in either case a control board will likely need replacing, and whether spares are available depends on the manufacturer's service program and not on a specific technology.

Yes - but in my experience touchscreens fail more frequently than buttons smile

And if a button does fail I stand a reasonable chance of being able to do a DIY fix
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/03/19 04:52 PM

I purchased the adapter to use the smart app as an interface with the N1X. It's essentially a touchscreen at that point with a modern look. It works really well and I wouldn't mind if it was built into the N1X with a small screen on the side like the NV10. The smart app was really cool at first, however, I have found that I actually only use it for recording. For day to day operations I find it quicker to use the N1X buttons. One button/hand for the metronome, voices, reverb, etc., beyond that there is really not more to change.

God Bless,
David

Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/03/19 06:49 PM

I should note that UX issues aside, the N1X is still the nicest piano I've owned and I'm delighted with it. But I couldn't let this thread just be a love fest could I? smile

Originally Posted by JoeT
Maybe Yamaha had a similar UI like Kawai in development for the N1X, then saw how Kawai struggled with their first implementation and pulled it in the last second reverting to the tried and tested interface from the previous generation? Who knows.


Yamaha already has a very nice interface built for the CLP-685 (and probably other CLP's?) that has a 1.5" square (ish, I'm guessing) backlit LCD display that is manipulated with mechanical buttons and offers full control of the instrument through menus, but also has a very nice "Piano Room" feature which uses icons effectively to allow control of things like lid position, reverb, resonance and such. It's a very nice little UI actually. As I mentioned in my earlier diatribe, I'm guessing it wasn't included on the N1X so it would keep the acoustic aesthetic where if you're not using a control, there is literally just black on the left side, where on the CLP the screen was obvious all the time. This is pure conjecture on my part though.

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I can deal with the dangling cables. Mine are all hidden.


So I don't mind them either if I can hide them. So on the N1X there are two USB ports, one takes a "printer cable" which is what you use to hook your PC to the audio/midi interface. It's nicely hidden on the left side of the instrument, under the body. The midi ports are there as well along with aux audio jacks. It's actually very thoughtful placement because it makes it easy to hide those cables.

The USB port for devices however is right in front of the instrument under your left knee. It's right at the bottom of the keybed and also has the volume knob and headphone jacks. The knob is discrete enough, and I don't mind the headphone jacks because if you're using headphones there's no hiding it and it's convenient to have the jacks right there. But the USB port there means you just can't hide the cable, is sticks out of the front of the instrument like an aardvark tongue. Even if you pulled the cable back under the instrument, the strain relief causes it to poke out a couple of inches. And, as I mentioned, because it's right there next to the volume knob, to the right of in it in fact, many times while reaching for the volume you can easily knock the plug out if you're not looking (well even if you are looking, I've done it) and it's also easy to knock it out with your knee.


Originally Posted by Gombessa
I'm sure the shortcuts are faster than digging through a menu, too.


Not really. I have to haul out the manual first off, because there's no way you'd memorize all of the settings. Then find the page and the setting. Then look to make sure you're hitting the right key, and I often have to count because I don't remember which D6 is all the time. If you have a setting you use all the time and have memorized it like CyberGene maybe but that's the only time I can see it being a time saver.
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/03/19 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by David B
I purchased the adapter to use the smart app as an interface with the N1X. It's essentially a touchscreen at that point with a modern look. It works really well and I wouldn't mind if it was built into the N1X with a small screen on the side like the NV10. The smart app was really cool at first, however, I have found that I actually only use it for recording. For day to day operations I find it quicker to use the N1X buttons. One button/hand for the metronome, voices, reverb, etc., beyond that there is really not more to change.

God Bless,
David


David, can you tell me if you're able to control more resonance from the app than from the N1X itself? The only resonance feature you can change on the instrument are the string and damper resonance. The description of the app seems to imply you can also change things like the aliquot and body resonance (which you can change on the CLP-685 from the instrument.) Is this true, are there additional settings you can make from the app that you can't on the piano itself?
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/03/19 11:02 PM

Something from today. Bortkiewicz is very new to me but I can't get enough of his music!
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/04/19 02:01 AM

Originally Posted by Chrispy
David, can you tell me if you're able to control more resonance from the app than from the N1X itself? The only resonance feature you can change on the instrument are the string and damper resonance.


Just String and Damper Resonance.

God Bless,
David
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/04/19 07:45 AM

Originally Posted by David B
Originally Posted by Chrispy
David, can you tell me if you're able to control more resonance from the app than from the N1X itself? The only resonance feature you can change on the instrument are the string and damper resonance.


Just String and Damper Resonance.

God Bless,
David


Thanks for checking! So less control than I had on the CLP-685 and maybe it is possible to change all settings from the instrument then. Mind you I never actually changed the body or aliquot resonance on the CLP except to see what it did smile
Posted By: Smaug

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/04/19 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by Chrispy
The USB port for devices however is right in front of the instrument under your left knee.

Would these help?:
https://www.amazon.com/Adapter-VCZHS-USB3-0-Converter-Female/dp/B01G8H7I44
https://www.amazon.com/wawpi-Degree...mp;psc=1&refRID=8C2ZWMC3GG5RM74NXWJ1
Posted By: jeffscot

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/04/19 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by Chrispy
Thanks for checking! So less control than I had on the CLP-685 and maybe it is possible to change all settings from the instrument then. Mind you I never actually changed the body or aliquot resonance on the CLP except to see what it did smile

The P515 still has the body and aliquot . . .
Could you tell what they did? smile
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/04/19 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by Smaug
Originally Posted by Chrispy
The USB port for devices however is right in front of the instrument under your left knee.

Would these help?:
https://www.amazon.com/Adapter-VCZHS-USB3-0-Converter-Female/dp/B01G8H7I44
https://www.amazon.com/wawpi-Degree...mp;psc=1&refRID=8C2ZWMC3GG5RM74NXWJ1


Not really, first they are still visible and would just be hanging down rather than out, and second, at least for me who is tall, the port is right next to my knee so I'd still hit it. And it would still be in the way of the volume knob. I guess the first could be somewhat contained if I got two and did a 180, but I still would be hitting it I think. Thanks for the suggestion though, always good to have those types of adapters in the back of my head for other stuff.
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/04/19 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by jeffscot
Originally Posted by Chrispy
Thanks for checking! So less control than I had on the CLP-685 and maybe it is possible to change all settings from the instrument then. Mind you I never actually changed the body or aliquot resonance on the CLP except to see what it did smile

The P515 still has the body and aliquot . . .
Could you tell what they did? smile


I mean yes, but it was subtle. Unless I was actively changing it or setting it to ridiculous values, I'd probably not notice in a blind AB comparison.
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/04/19 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by JoeT
Maybe Yamaha had a similar UI like Kawai in development for the N1X, then saw how Kawai struggled with their first implementation and pulled it in the last second reverting to the tried and tested interface from the previous generation? Who knows..

Yamaha has been using touchscreens on their synths and workstations for a while. Adding a touchscreen or a new interface would cut 0.01% from their margin, so they kept the old one wink

Kawai is not even acknowledging that the UI has design issues, so, from their perspective, they are not struggling. The current UI has a lot of eye candy and looks nice in the showroom during the first contact with the DP. So, it is perfect for the customer segment they want to attract. The few users who care about usability and want features such as registration editing are a minority and can be safely ignored. If Kawai wanted to have a new UI designed from scratch for usability (and not for eye candy) they would only need a small team of specialized UI designers/programmers working on it for a couple of weeks. The reason there are no UI updates is not technical...
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/05/19 07:15 PM

Another buyer just posted in the prices thread, now there’s four of us yay! Congratulations pianokat123!
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/08/19 01:49 PM

Last Saturday I decided to test the speaker system. The volume knob is at min position at say 7 o'clock and turning it clockwise tops at say 5 o'clock. I think for the small living room putting it a 2 o'clock gives the most realistic experience of real grand. Lower than that is too quiet. Higher than that it gets unrealistically powerful. Left it at that position and played for a 10 minutes. Well, played a Bortkiewicz piece that has some fff sections. Then my phone chimed and the neighbor that lives two floors below complained in a rude way which ultimately led to me having quite a heated chat, since according to the laws in Sofia, I am allowed to play an instrument between 10:00 and 14:00 and between 16:00 and 20:00 and it was 17:00. But I believe he's simply some grumpy nut because he's always complaining of every little noise in the building. So might not be very objective test of loudness smile But in any case it was loud enough and sounded to me very realistic.

However I was very frustrated by the neighbor's reaction. Legally he can just go f**k himself since I'm allowed to play the piano in the allowed hours. On the other hand I don't feel comfortable bothering people and going into arguments frown I already started researching ways to move into a house. That might take a lifetime wink But at least I have the reason.
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/08/19 02:16 PM

Maybe just change your phone number?
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/08/19 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
I already started researching ways to move into a house. That might take a lifetime wink But at least I have the reason.

Well, there is at least one PW member, CadenzaVVi, formerly Jouishy, who told of buying a house so she could buy a piano. And here you are thinking of buying a house for your piano. smile But my advice to you is that never tell your wife you are buying a house for your piano - the correct answer is always that you are buying the house for her and your daughter! wink

BTW, your description of your neighbor's call reminded me of the scene @ 14:09 in this film short about classical piano. (There are subtitles in English for those that need to understand what the neighbor is saying.)

And also, there is, from the neighbor's perspective...

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/08/19 04:15 PM

Chrispy's semi-review of sound on the N1X still remains the only independent review of the N1X on Youtube. Is this because the only ones buying the N1X so far are players who are not confident enough to post reviews of DPs? Or some other factor? It's been over 2 months since NAMM.

BTW, I don't need a review myself. The owners on PW have given great reviews (thanks David B, CyberGene, and Chrispy!). I'm just wondering if I should be concerned that there are few reviews to be found outside of PW?
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/08/19 04:28 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Chrispy's semi-review of sound on the N1X still remains the only independent review of the N1X on Youtube. Is this because the only ones buying the N1X so far are players who are not confident enough to post reviews of DPs? Or some other factor? It's been over 2 months since NAMM.


You'll find the same dearth of reviews for the original N1/N2/N3 released nearly a decade ago. They're extremely high-end, niche products and the market for YO-WASSUP-BOI-ITS-YA-MAIN-BRUH-PIANO-DUDE-HERE-WITH-ANOTHER-YOUTUBE -FIRST-HAAANDDSSSONNNN-REEEVVVVIIIEEWWW!!!! is quite limited.

I can't explain the NV10's relative popularity on this board other than the fact that it takes a lot to discover and commit to a minority player like Kawai rather than going with the default-Yamaha juggernaut? I'm not trying to say that Yamaha purchasers are ill-informed or poor-researchers, but IMO it takes a lot more effort to find out about Kawai, research it, and take the plunge (and thus be willing to talk about it) than it does to simply visit a normal shop/piano store and just buy a Yamaha, which seems to be regularly represented in most stores.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/08/19 04:39 PM

In regards to reviewing stuff on YouTube, I'm rather old-fashioned and I still prefer reading about stuff rather than watching/listening to videos smile Well, I've seen a lot of YouTube reviews about digital pianos but more often than not I'm bored and usually scroll to listen to actual playing rather than hearing some facts I can also read myself. Which is why I decided that recording a few pieces is much better than trying to review. Besides, I've never done a video review. I don't think my verbal English is good enough, although I speak everyday since I work for a US company but still I would prefer not to embarrass myself in such an obvious way laugh And it would be rather comical to create a review in Bulgarian, because it's almost certain there won't be more than a few sold over here laugh
Posted By: Harpuia

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/08/19 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Last Saturday I decided to test the speaker system. The volume knob is at min position at say 7 o'clock and turning it clockwise tops at say 5 o'clock. I think for the small living room putting it a 2 o'clock gives the most realistic experience of real grand. Lower than that is too quiet. Higher than that it gets unrealistically powerful. Left it at that position and played for a 10 minutes. Well, played a Bortkiewicz piece that has some fff sections. Then my phone chimed and the neighbor that lives two floors below complained in a rude way which ultimately led to me having quite a heated chat, since according to the laws in Sofia, I am allowed to play an instrument between 10:00 and 14:00 and between 16:00 and 20:00 and it was 17:00. But I believe he's simply some grumpy nut because he's always complaining of every little noise in the building. So might not be very objective test of loudness smile But in any case it was loud enough and sounded to me very realistic.

However I was very frustrated by the neighbor's reaction. Legally he can just go f**k himself since I'm allowed to play the piano in the allowed hours. On the other hand I don't feel comfortable bothering people and going into arguments frown I already started researching ways to move into a house. That might take a lifetime wink But at least I have the reason.


When I play my N3 using speakers I usually put the knob at 2 o’clock or 3 o’clock. Anything quieter than that does not feel real and I feel like I can not control my dynamic. Anything louder than that will drive my neighbor crazy.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/08/19 06:04 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
according to the laws in Sofia, I am allowed to play an instrument between 10:00 and 14:00 and between 16:00 and 20:00 and it was 17:00.

BTW, I forgot to ask, why not between 14:00 and 16:00? Because instruments interfere with the digestion of lunch? Disruption of children's homework? 14:00-16:00 is the traditional nap time of Bulgarians? laugh Seriously though, this is just very odd to me! grin
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/08/19 06:11 PM

Not sure if you’re asking seriously and I haven’t researched whether that’s only a Bulgarian thing or widespread (which is why you’re joking?) but yeah, 14:00-16:00 is the traditional nap time smile As a kid I’ve been forced by my grandma to sleep in that time and as you can imagine I couldn’t sleep nor I wanted to stop games smile On the other hand I would be so happy to be allowed to take that nap now as an adult but employers don’t observe it laugh
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/08/19 06:13 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Not sure if you’re asking seriously and I haven’t researched whether that’s only a Bulgarian thing or widespread (which is why you’re joking?) but yeah, 14:00-16:00 is the traditional nap time smile As a kid I’ve been forced by my grandma to sleep in that time and as you can imagine I couldn’t sleep nor I wanted to stop games smile On the other hand I would be so happy to be allowed to take that nap now as an adult but employers don’t observe it laugh

I was serious and the nap time thing was just a wild guess. Wow! I should buy a lottery ticket today! smile

I don't know if this happens in other countries. For example, south of the US border or Mediterranean countries, I would think are most likely to have a traditional nap or siesta time. Not in the 5 countries, I've spent the most time in: USA, China, Netherlands, UK, and Russia (at least not in Moscow, although I can't speak for the Regions).

Thanks for the cultural explanation and your personal story smile
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/08/19 06:21 PM

That's a nice way of putting it ...
Originally Posted by Gombessa
You'll find the same dearth of reviews for the original N1/N2/N3 released nearly a decade ago. They're extremely high-end, niche products and the market for YO-WASSUP-BOI-ITS-YA-MAIN-BRUH-PIANO-DUDE-HERE-WITH-ANOTHER-YOUTUBE -FIRST-HAAANDDSSSONNNN-REEEVVVVIIIEEWWW!!!! is quite limited.
Anything on You Tube that starts with WASSUP is instantly rejected here. I don't expect professional-level content, but I have no tolerance for crap.

This fear is unfounded, I think ...
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I'm just wondering if I should be concerned that there are few reviews to be found outside of PW?
How many reviews are needed anyway? I really only need a product announcement, followed by a trip to the piano shops.

Once there I will conduct the only review that really matters: my own.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/08/19 06:23 PM

Hm, I did a quick research and indeed it seems like nap is a regional thing. It’s so common around Bulgaria that I thought it was something around the world. Apparently it doesn’t apply for working people, however it’s very strictly observed around residential buildings and is a widespread residential law everyone observes about not doing noises in that time. I think that even loud construction is not allowed around residential areas unless an urgent repair or something. Also, seems there are some health benefits with napping, especially for preventing heart problems. I take this nap sometimes during weekends smile
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/08/19 08:33 PM

So I finally tried plugging in my AKG headphones. They are only slightly louder. Maybe I'm losing my hearing, but I'm still flabbergasted that David is reporting that if he puts the volume past half way with headphones he risks hearing damage. As it is, I definitely feel like the headphones are just barely enough, and I'm loathe to go to max volume as it seems like it distorts a little at the top end when I max it. I need to bring my headphones to the store and try it out and see if it's just my unit.

RE CybeGene's volume settings on speakers, I've basically found exactly the same thing, about 2 o'clock is the "correct" setting to make it sound like a grand that belongs in my house. I have cranked it a bit more and it is extremely loud, like it would probably fill a symphony hall loud. I will say the "Organ Tutti" at volume is earth shakingly gratifying. The bass response is surprisingly on this instrument, it supports the lower spectrum well.

Also, man, I wish we had nap time here in the US...
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/08/19 09:38 PM

Originally Posted by Chrispy
So I finally tried plugging in my AKG headphones. They are only slightly louder. Maybe I'm losing my hearing, but I'm still flabbergasted that David is reporting that if he puts the volume past half way with headphones he risks hearing damage. As it is, I definitely feel like the headphones are just barely enough, and I'm loathe to go to max volume as it seems like it distorts a little at the top end when I max it. I need to bring my headphones to the store and try it out and see if it's just my unit.

Your AKGs should actually be a little quieter. Your MDRs should be loudest. See this post. I'd say this this test probably shows your headphones are working but (possibly) the headphone amplifier stage of your N1X might be defective, or at a minimum, there is a configuration option you haven't yet discovered. It's good you are taking your headphones to the store. You should take the MDRs also since those should be the loudest.
Posted By: TheophilusCarter

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/08/19 09:46 PM

You folks should know that this thread is giving me massive G.A.S. laugh
Posted By: HwyStar

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/08/19 11:04 PM

For the gas inclined, Cunningham Piano in Philadelphia has 5 units showing up at the store around this Friday. As far as I know two are already pre-sold. If I get the chance to go up there I will go to compare it side by side with the N3X. Hopefully Rich and Hugh are planning on doing a side by side recording of both units with Hugh playing. They only use microphones to do their recordings. Would be a great plug for their store.

Come on Rich and Hugh do the comparison for us! I know you are reading this Rich...
Posted By: J5on

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/09/19 12:38 AM

Had a big disagreement with wife whether or not to get a digital piano or acoustic piano. She wants an acoustic where as I don't want to deal with the hassle of tuning the piano every now and then. She tried heaps of piano YUS1, YUS3, YUS5, C1X, CLP 689, NU1X...etc and insist that the touch in an acoustic piano is far superior than a digital piano. I don't know if that's more of a psychological or actual feeling, but given that she hasn't played for 10 years I would weight the psychological factor more.

So in the end, I made the executive decision to get the N1X without even trying on the actual piano. Full payment paid and just waiting for the piano to arrive now.

Would be interested to hear what she says when the piano arrives.
Posted By: WeakLeftHand

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/09/19 02:31 AM

Originally Posted by Jason Tsang
Had a big disagreement with wife whether or not to get a digital piano or acoustic piano. She wants an acoustic where as I don't want to deal with the hassle of tuning the piano every now and then. She tried heaps of piano YUS1, YUS3, YUS5, C1X, CLP 689, NU1X...etc and insist that the touch in an acoustic piano is far superior than a digital piano. I don't know if that's more of a psychological or actual feeling, but given that she hasn't played for 10 years I would weight the psychological factor more.

So in the end, I made the executive decision to get the N1X without even trying on the actual piano. Full payment paid and just waiting for the piano to arrive now.

Would be interested to hear what she says when the piano arrives.


You are brave my friend. Good luck!
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/09/19 02:38 AM

Who is the piano meant for? For you, or for her?
Originally Posted by Jason Tsang
Had a big disagreement with wife whether or not to get a digital piano or acoustic piano. She wants an acoustic where as I don't want to deal with the hassle of tuning the piano every now and then.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/09/19 02:57 AM

Originally Posted by WeakLeftHand
You are brave my friend. Good luck!

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Who is the piano meant for? For you, or for her?
Originally Posted by Jason Tsang
Had a big disagreement with wife whether or not to get a digital piano or acoustic piano. She wants an acoustic where as I don't want to deal with the hassle of tuning the piano every now and then.

Myself, I wouldn't have done that if she is the one that plays piano and the piano is so she can play. As a general rule, I believe in the "happy wife, happy life" meme.
Posted By: J5on

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/09/19 03:11 AM

Originally Posted by WeakLeftHand
Originally Posted by Jason Tsang
Had a big disagreement with wife whether or not to get a digital piano or acoustic piano. She wants an acoustic where as I don't want to deal with the hassle of tuning the piano every now and then. She tried heaps of piano YUS1, YUS3, YUS5, C1X, CLP 689, NU1X...etc and insist that the touch in an acoustic piano is far superior than a digital piano. I don't know if that's more of a psychological or actual feeling, but given that she hasn't played for 10 years I would weight the psychological factor more.

So in the end, I made the executive decision to get the N1X without even trying on the actual piano. Full payment paid and just waiting for the piano to arrive now.

Would be interested to hear what she says when the piano arrives.


You are brave my friend. Good luck!


Got an ETA that it won't arrive until late Jun. That gives me another 3 months to persuade her. wink



Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Who is the piano meant for? For you, or for her?
Originally Posted by Jason Tsang
Had a big disagreement with wife whether or not to get a digital piano or acoustic piano. She wants an acoustic where as I don't want to deal with the hassle of tuning the piano every now and then.



It's for both of us and also hoping to get my two kids into piano.
I guess I'll be the main player.
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/09/19 03:15 AM

Originally Posted by Jason Tsang
So in the end, I made the executive decision to get the N1X without even trying on the actual piano. Full payment paid and just waiting for the piano to arrive now.

Would be interested to hear what she says when the piano arrives.


I love my N1X and I have access to acoustic pianos to play on a fairly regular basis. In some instances I prefer the action and sound of the N1X over some acoustics I've played.

Obviously, I don't know how your wife will feel about it, but these hybrids an absolute amazing experience. I still feel very humbled and grateful that I actually own one. I could literally play it 4 hours a day if I had the time.

Congratulations on the purchase.

God bless,
David
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/09/19 05:18 AM

Originally Posted by Jason Tsang
It's for both of us and also hoping to get my two kids into piano.
I guess I'll be the main player.

Well, if you are the main player, then I'd agree it's mostly your call. Seems only fair. smile
Posted By: HwyStar

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/09/19 01:31 PM

Rich of Cunningham Piano did reply to my request of comparing the N3X vs the N1X and Hugh Sung will hopefully play both piano's with the same passage so we can hear the difference's between the two pianos. His reply to my initial request we: "We will do it!"

Hugh Sung is an American classical pianist (Hugh Sung Wiki) that is good friends with Rich.

I am trying to decide between getting the N3X and the N1X. I think that Rich mentioned to me via a phone conversation that his best comparison between the two piano's was: If you are playing to other people and your space affords the larger piano then it is worth getting. Otherwise, if "you" are only going to use the piano and will just be playing for yourself then the N1X would foot the bill nicely.

My wife has had some health issues recently and it will be a little while until I can demo these pianos for myself. frown
Posted By: TheophilusCarter

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/09/19 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by HwyStar
I think that Rich mentioned to me via a phone conversation that his best comparison between the two piano's was: If you are playing to other people and your space affords the larger piano then it is worth getting. Otherwise, if "you" are only going to use the piano and will just be playing for yourself then the N1X would foot the bill nicely.

That seems like a good way of putting it. The actions should be more or less identical; the main differences seem to be in the speaker system.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/09/19 01:54 PM

Yep, I think:

Speakers
Lack of USB audio interface (a shame)
Ivorite white keytops
Different pedal pressure
TRS haptic feedback
Posted By: HwyStar

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/09/19 02:39 PM

Rich did mention that the placement of the speakers, to him, did give him the impression that the sound was nicely balanced around the player. Helping the player to be "enveloped" in the sound like a real AP would. Only sitting in front of one can truly answer that question though.

But, it will be interesting to hear the difference in the bass response of the two units via a microphone recording. I am not sure what mic/mic's they use to record their piano's in their videos. Hopefully, when they record the video on YT they will post what equipment was used for the recording.
Posted By: HwyStar

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/11/19 12:14 PM

Gombessa: In regards to the lack of a USB audio interface on the N3X:

1. That aids in recording the audio from the N3X resident sounds directly into a DAW,
2. Input audio from a computer for musical playback through the resident speakers.

Is that it? Everything else outside of the piano can be handled by the other connection; analog audio, midi, etc.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/11/19 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by HwyStar
Gombessa: In regards to the lack of a USB audio interface on the N3X:

1. That aids in recording the audio from the N3X resident sounds directly into a DAW,
2. Input audio from a computer for musical playback through the resident speakers.

Is that it? Everything else outside of the piano can be handled by the other connection; analog audio, midi, etc.


I'm sure there are more, but that's my understanding of the benefits as well. The specific details of these two benefits might include:

a. Potential decrease in latency due to pure digital signal (no ADC step into the DP)
b. Potential decrease in noise due to pure digital signal
c. Potential elimination of ground loop interference
d. Potential simplification of volume controls from aux/line-in volume/gain adjustment
e. Aesthetic/setup benefits from wiring simplification
f. Potential support for additional input/output modes in future updates/products (>2 channel input/output?)
Posted By: HwyStar

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/11/19 04:51 PM

Excellent reply! Thanks a lot, Gombessa. I wanted to make sure I was not forgetting something. Those are all good reasons to "consider" the N1X over the N3X. Thanks again!
Posted By: thepianoplayer416

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/11/19 11:39 PM

Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/12/19 12:35 AM

1. Get your model numbers right. It's not an NU2! Also are you SURE that's an N3 not an N3X?
2. Yes the music rest folds down
3. The "entry level" is the NU1X not the N1
4. The NU1X is NOT the N1X
5. As this was just made why wasn't the N1X included? At first I thought maybe he was mistaken, but indeed the speaker layout and the not curved side pieces show it is an N1.
6. It's a display model, the one you buy doesn't come with the transparent front panel.
7. Just because you can't see the speakers doesn't mean they are there
8. Doesn't appear he understands the difference between the actions between the NU1X and the others
9. "I believe this one has (an actual piano action) but it doesn't feel as good because it's entry level". ORLY?

IMHO there is a minimum amount of research you should do before you review something.

P.S. Is that the correct way to stress the syllables on the word "Avant"? maybe it's a Canadian thing or I just say it wrong?
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/12/19 12:57 AM

Yes, there are a few inaccuracies in this chap's reviews, however he's clearly a big fan of pianos, comes across pretty well on camera, and has a cool name, so I'm prepared to cut him some slack. wink

James
x
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/12/19 01:09 AM

Some slack, sure. But not that much.
Posted By: bSharp(C)yclist

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/12/19 01:17 AM

He got the names right a few times I think. Just need to study harder.
Posted By: J5on

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/12/19 01:30 AM

Originally Posted by Chrispy
1. Get your model numbers right. It's not an NU2! Also are you SURE that's an N3 not an N3X?


Ya.. This also makes me question if he really refers to N1 or N1X as well.

Originally Posted by Chrispy
6. It's a display model, the one you buy doesn't come with the transparent front panel.

In fact, I think it is fascinating to get the model with transparent front panel. Being able to see through will increase my interest to play the piano. and cover it with a blanket when I find the action movements to be too annoying. smile

The N1 introduction is just a joke. serious, you do a review without even find out where the power button is?!

Indeed, hes keep reiterating that the high end model has less variations in sound. This makes me rethink "Do I really want those sounds on these pianos?" From the UI design, a very sleek, clean piano with no fancy touch screen/button design. A key action equivalent to the Yamaha Grand piano, as well as the CFX/bosendorfer sound. With all the features from a high end grand piano, having extra sound variations makes these AvantGrant neither fish nor fowl.

Overall, I would just disregard his reviews.
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/12/19 06:18 AM

For what it's worth, you are in good company. His Novus NV10 review was equally "well" researched and full of these small inaccuracies. For example, iirc, during the whole NV10 video he was using the older sound mode (that has been available for years in the CA67/97, ES8, etc.). He was even demonstrating the resonance modelling and showing it off as if it were something new, when in fact that was the "old" sound engine and he didn't even switch to pianist mode with its new and improved resonances. And I think he never talked about the damper weight mechanism - the one feature that currently sets the NV10 apart from all other DPs and hybrids. crazy
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/12/19 01:58 PM

Wow. You guys smile

If this was a proper review, I would probably feel the same. But from seeing his videos, it seems he travels all over, presenting on several pianos/organs/harpsichords/celestas/etc. a week.

They don't seem like "reviews" and more like "first impressions," without the benefit of being able to put together a script or prior research it time on the keys. Taking it for what it is, I find myself focused on the experience of being exposed to all of these different instruments I may never see in person in my own lifetime, along with his house clear enthusiasm for the piano. I've seen more obscure grands, glockenspiels, and organs from his channel than anywhere else, and imo it's kind of cool.

It's doesn't bother me a bit that he doesn't know what is under the hood of a hybrid digital.
Posted By: KL NY

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/12/19 03:21 PM

I think he is more acoustic guy and not knowing much about DP.
I like some of this others "review"




Posted By: ando

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/12/19 05:46 PM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
Wow. You guys smile

If this was a proper review, I would probably feel the same. But from seeing his videos, it seems he travels all over, presenting on several pianos/organs/harpsichords/celestas/etc. a week.

They don't seem like "reviews" and more like "first impressions," without the benefit of being able to put together a script or prior research it time on the keys. Taking it for what it is, I find myself focused on the experience of being exposed to all of these different instruments I may never see in person in my own lifetime, along with his house clear enthusiasm for the piano. I've seen more obscure grands, glockenspiels, and organs from his channel than anywhere else, and imo it's kind of cool.

It's doesn't bother me a bit that he doesn't know what is under the hood of a hybrid digital.

Well, I think the problem is that he does act like he's a bit of an expert in all things piano, when he's actually more of an "enthusiast" for all things piano. He can play, but his technical understanding of all the instruments he reviews is pretty basic and sometimes well off the mark. I guess we are all lucky because we are aware enough to know what is BS and what isn't, but I do feel sorry for people who are starting out and are getting their information from guys like this.
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/12/19 06:54 PM

This says it all ...
Originally Posted by ando
I think the problem is that he does act like he's a bit of an expert in all things piano, when he's actually more of an "enthusiast" for all things piano. He can play, but his technical understanding of all the instruments he reviews is pretty basic and sometimes well off the mark. I guess we are all lucky because we are aware enough to know what is BS and what isn't, but I do feel sorry for people who are starting out and are getting their information from guys like this.
Posted By: Haruki

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/14/19 12:28 AM

I didn’t want to create a new thread just for this question, so I hope this is still on topic and someone can answer it.

Is the sound from the N1X different from the NU1X? If so, which one do you think sounds better?

From the videos I’ve listened to, I have the impression that the NU1X has a better sound. It sounds more like an acoustic piano than the N1X which sounds more digital. However, since this is my impression from videos, and not real playing, I would like to hear comments from someone who has really played both.

Thank you in advance!
Posted By: HwyStar

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/14/19 02:05 AM

Cybergene has had both pianos. He returned the NU1X and replaced it with the N1X. He is very happy with the N1X so far.
Posted By: Haruki

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/14/19 02:08 AM

Originally Posted by HwyStar
Cybergene has had both pianos. He returned the NU1X and replaced it with the N1X. He is very happy with the N1X so far.


I see. It would be great to hear from him, if he feels any difference between the sound quality between the two pianos.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/14/19 05:33 AM

The CFX and Bosensorfer are four channel samples on the N1X compared to stereo on the NU1X. Whether they are from different sampling sessions is difficult to say. The binaural CFX to my ears is the same.
Posted By: Haruki

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/14/19 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
The CFX and Bosensorfer are four channel samples on the N1X compared to stereo on the NU1X. Whether they are from different sampling sessions is difficult to say. The binaural CFX to my ears is the same.


So the N1X sound is actually better? I wonder why the sound when recorded doesn’t sound so good.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/14/19 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by Haruki
Originally Posted by CyberGene
The CFX and Bosensorfer are four channel samples on the N1X compared to stereo on the NU1X. Whether they are from different sampling sessions is difficult to say. The binaural CFX to my ears is the same.


So the N1X sound is actually better? I wonder why the sound when recorded doesn’t sound so good.

Well, if you mean the four channel samples. They are meant for live playing and to sound good through the onboard speakers. When mixed down to stereo it’s not very convincing.
Posted By: Haruki

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/14/19 10:28 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Haruki
Originally Posted by CyberGene
The CFX and Bosensorfer are four channel samples on the N1X compared to stereo on the NU1X. Whether they are from different sampling sessions is difficult to say. The binaural CFX to my ears is the same.


So the N1X sound is actually better? I wonder why the sound when recorded doesn’t sound so good.

Well, if you mean the four channel samples. They are meant for live playing and to sound good through the onboard speakers. When mixed down to stereo it’s not very convincing.


I see. Thanks!
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/15/19 05:41 PM

Where do I get an AvantGrand jacket? laugh


Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/15/19 08:38 PM

Can we see a pic of the N1X’s underside? Specifically where the usb-to-host and other connections reside. There are no pictures of this area, and I wonder if someone here wouldn’t mind showing us what it’s like down there.
Posted By: TheophilusCarter

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/15/19 08:42 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14
Can we see a pic of the N1X’s underside? Specifically where the usb-to-host and other connections reside. There are no pictures of this area, and I wonder if someone here wouldn’t mind showing us what it’s like down there.

I see a picture here of that:
https://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical_instruments/pianos/avantgrand/n1x/index.html
Look for the straight-on view, click on it, then hit the + button until it's nice and big, and you can see the master voume, USB port, and two headphone ports, right next to the headphone hook.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/15/19 08:57 PM

Some of the connectors are really hidden, they are on the left underside facing the floor:
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/15/19 10:35 PM

Thanks, CyberGene. I’d say that’s the perfect location for cables to be hidden from view.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/15/19 10:39 PM

Originally Posted by TheophilusCarter
Originally Posted by Pete14
Can we see a pic of the N1X’s underside? Specifically where the usb-to-host and other connections reside. There are no pictures of this area, and I wonder if someone here wouldn’t mind showing us what it’s like down there.

I see a picture here of that:
https://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical_instruments/pianos/avantgrand/n1x/index.html
Look for the straight-on view, click on it, then hit the + button until it's nice and big, and you can see the master voume, USB port, and two headphone ports, right next to the headphone hook.


Theo, thanks for the link, but I was referring to the usb-to-host, audio in/out, etc... (see CyberGene’s picture). Having these connections set to the far left (facing down) is good for keeping cables out of sight.
Posted By: TheophilusCarter

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/15/19 11:07 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14


Theo, thanks for the link, but I was referring to the usb-to-host, audio in/out, etc... (see CyberGene’s picture). Having these connections set to the far left (facing down) is good for keeping cables out of sight.


Ah! Gotcha. smile
Posted By: pianokat123

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/17/19 06:42 AM

Hi all. I'm still awaiting my N1X - Yamaha just advised my dealer it will now be a few weeks later than expected so looking at mid May I believe. Can I ask, and sorry if it's been asked before, has anyone found a decent cover for the N1X? Or anyone that would make one to size online? Nothing too old fashioned or frilly preferably! laugh
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/17/19 07:09 AM

Dust will form a perfect fitting cover over the piano about 5 seconds after you unpack it smile

Really though, I don’t think any of us have covered it. I just keep a zwiffer duster nearby. It’s such a pretty piano it seems a shame to me to cover it!

And that stinks you have to wait so long! Hopefully the date is worst case.
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/17/19 07:11 AM

Originally Posted by pianokat123
Can I ask, and sorry if it's been asked before, has anyone found a decent cover for the N1X? Or anyone that would make one to size online? Nothing too old fashioned or frilly preferably! laugh


I posted this earlier in the thread. Perhaps it's not what you're looking for, but it works as a great cover.

I purchased this microfiber towel from Amazon that works very well as a cover for the N1X. It's very soft and the piano gets dusted by virtue of covering and uncovering it.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B075DD6DT9/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[Linked Image]

God Bless,
David
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/17/19 07:17 AM

What exposure do you need to protect against?
Originally Posted by pianokat123
Hi all. I'm still awaiting my N1X - Yamaha just advised my dealer it will now be a few weeks later than expected so looking at mid May I believe. Can I ask, and sorry if it's been asked before, has anyone found a decent cover for the N1X? Or anyone that would make one to size online? Nothing too old fashioned or frilly preferably! laugh
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/17/19 07:45 AM

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
What exposure do you need to protect against?

Dust and cat hair. And then more cat hair. And the cats themselves.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/17/19 07:55 AM

N1X is a dust magnet frown I thought my apartment was dust free compared to the previous ones, since we live on a high floor, far from busy roads and indeed there’s much less visible dust on the furniture than before, it’s much cleaner than what I’m used to. Well, I realized I was wrong after I got the N1X laugh It seems to collect and somehow suck all the dust in the universe...
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/17/19 08:09 AM

I meant to pose my question to pianokat123.
Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
What exposure do you need to protect against?
Dust and cat hair. And then more cat hair. And the cats themselves.
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/17/19 09:00 AM

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I meant to pose my question to pianokat123.
Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
What exposure do you need to protect against?
Dust and cat hair. And then more cat hair. And the cats themselves.

Maybe piano_kat_123 has no cats ;-)
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/17/19 09:07 AM

She (?) is a dog person. wink
Posted By: J5on

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/17/19 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by pianokat123
Hi all. I'm still awaiting my N1X - Yamaha just advised my dealer it will now be a few weeks later than expected so looking at mid May I believe. Can I ask, and sorry if it's been asked before, has anyone found a decent cover for the N1X? Or anyone that would make one to size online? Nothing too old fashioned or frilly preferably! laugh


My dealer is advising mid-late June delivery despite we are on the same island. Guess this is also why our price are heavily discounted. wink


I am going to stitch a few towels together to make the piano cover. laugh
Posted By: HwyStar

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/17/19 11:39 AM

I have "not" watched this video yet... I guess this will be an interesting comparison to watch. Thanks, Bonners!:

Posted By: HwyStar

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/17/19 11:54 AM

I watched the video and both the piano's sound great! I am assuming they are direct in recorded.

I "think" I preferred the N1X for my style of play or my hearing. The N1X seems to have a little bit more "bite" to the samples and the NV10 is slightly more mellow in tone. This makes sense since the real AP's sound that way in real life.

Now, it is just your own personal flavor of sound that you prefer. I am so happy that the hybrids have come out now and these days of playing DP's and their inferior sound are going away.
Posted By: akc42

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/17/19 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by HwyStar


Now, it is just your own personal flavor of sound that you prefer. I am so happy that the hybrids have come out now and these days of playing DP's and their inferior sound are going away.


Since I live just down the road from Bonners Showroom in Reigate and I went and played on the two hybrids and a Fuerich. My report on that visit is here
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...ha-n1x-released-at-namm.html#Post2823274
Posted By: percy64

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/17/19 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by HwyStar
I watched the video and both the piano's sound great! I am assuming they are direct in recorded.

I "think" I preferred the N1X for my style of play or my hearing. The N1X seems to have a little bit more "bite" to the samples and the NV10 is slightly more mellow in tone. This makes sense since the real AP's sound that way in real life.

Now, it is just your own personal flavor of sound that you prefer. I am so happy that the hybrids have come out now and these days of playing DP's and their inferior sound are going away.

One of the benefits of the N1X is that it comes with 2 distinct samples - the Yamaha CFX that is indeed "bright" and the Bosendorfer that is a lot more mellow. The NV10 has just one sound, but provides a number of different filters to make it brighter

I haven't been able to watch the video above - it is comparing NV10 with N1X or the N1?
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/17/19 01:49 PM

Originally Posted by percy64
I haven't been able to watch the video above - it is comparing NV10 with N1X or the N1?

N1X. It is only the second N1X video on Youtube since NAMM (after Chrispy's!)
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/17/19 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by percy64

One of the benefits of the N1X is that it comes with 2 distinct samples - the Yamaha CFX that is indeed "bright" and the Bosendorfer that is a lot more mellow. The NV10 has just one sound, but provides a number of different filters to make it brighter


While true for the SK-EX rendering engine, the NV10 comes with ~17 different pianos (probably 5-7 samples distinct samples) including EX Grand, SK-5, and upright pianos. You'd be forgoing the advanced rendering engine, but IIRC the N1X reserves some of its features for its flagship CFX sample only, too.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/17/19 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by percy64

One of the benefits of the N1X is that it comes with 2 distinct samples - the Yamaha CFX that is indeed "bright" and the Bosendorfer that is a lot more mellow. The NV10 has just one sound, but provides a number of different filters to make it brighter


While true for the SK-EX rendering engine, the NV10 comes with ~17 different pianos (probably 5-7 samples distinct samples) including EX Grand, SK-5, and upright pianos. You'd be forgoing the advanced rendering engine, but IIRC the N1X reserves some of its features for its flagship CFX sample only, too.

Well, yes and no. On the N1X both the CFX and the Bosendorfer use 4-channel sampling. I would assume they are equally premium and make use of all the possible engine effect like resonances, smooth release, etc. It was on Clavinova pianos that the Bosendorfer lacked some features. On the NV10 you have only one rendering piano, the SK-EX, whereas the others are stereo samples with the older engine.
Posted By: pianokat123

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/17/19 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I meant to pose my question to pianokat123.
Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
What exposure do you need to protect against?
Dust and cat hair. And then more cat hair. And the cats themselves.

Maybe piano_kat_123 has no cats ;-)


Haha! No cats, but a dog, and two small children... often (always?) with sticky hands. Any extra form of protection can only help! Whilst they're young anyway, I totally agree it's a shame to cover it as it's a beautiful instrument.

Sigh, just need to be patient now. Arghhh!
Posted By: percy64

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/17/19 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by HwyStar

N1X. It is only the second N1X video on Youtube since NAMM (after Chrispy's!)

Ah - I see a brand new video - I will look forwards to watching it later - but I am pretty sure Bonners have already put out an N1X video (and of course an NV10 one).
Posted By: TomLC

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/17/19 02:21 PM

YMMV, In my opinion the “older” samples of the SKEX, EX, and especially the SK5, are still very good. Playing SK5 on speakers in a room just sounds so realistic to me. cool
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/17/19 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by HwyStar
I watched the video and both the piano's sound great! I am assuming they are direct in recorded.

I "think" I preferred the N1X for my style of play or my hearing. The N1X seems to have a little bit more "bite" to the samples and the NV10 is slightly more mellow in tone. This makes sense since the real AP's sound that way in real life.

Now, it is just your own personal flavor of sound that you prefer. I am so happy that the hybrids have come out now and these days of playing DP's and their inferior sound are going away.

In the NV10 you have several settings to configure the sound output. Since this is a sample-based instrument there are obvious limits, but, nevertheless, you have some room for adjustments. And then you have the "characters" in pianist mode that work as kind of presets using different "microphone" position and mix settings. These also significantly change the sound profile. The N1X seems to be more limited in this regard (unless the external app unlocks additional settings).
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/17/19 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
[quote=Gombessa]
Well, yes and no. On the N1X both the CFX and the Bosendorfer use 4-channel sampling. I would assume they are equally premium and make use of all the possible engine effect like resonances, smooth release, etc.


Is it confirmed that the Bosendorfer is also multi-sampled?

What about binaural audio?
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/17/19 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by Gombessa

Is it confirmed that the Bosendorfer is also multi-sampled?

Yes according to the specs: "Features 4-point spatial acoustic samples of two world class concert pianos: the Yamaha CFX and the Bosendorfer Imperial" (https://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical_instruments/pianos/avantgrand/n1x/index.html)

Originally Posted by Gombessa
What about binaural audio?

Binaural audio only applies to the CFX.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/17/19 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by percy64
Originally Posted by HwyStar

N1X. It is only the second N1X video on Youtube since NAMM (after Chrispy's!)

Ah - I see a brand new video - I will look forwards to watching it later - but I am pretty sure Bonners have already put out an N1X video (and of course an NV10 one).

They have, of course, put out videos on both. This new one is a head-to-head comparison of the N1X and NV10, though.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/17/19 02:55 PM

From the description for each voice in the user manual:
Quote
2 Bösendorfer Imperial - The sound of the famed Vienna-made Bösendorfer flagship grand piano, utilizing four-channel sampling. This Voice has a rich and captivating sound, ideal for expressing the most delicate and tender musical passages.


This seems to be new and I can confirm that through speakers the Bosendorfer sound is better than what used to be on the NU1X (a stereo one, probably the same as in the Clavinova pianos and the P515). The one in the NU1X was overly dark and muffled whereas on the N1X it's very convincing and different. It's certainly on par with the CFX as expressivity and richness.

As to binaural, unfortunately it's only the CFX that's binaural and as a consequence it's the only voice that sound good through headphones. All other voices, regardless of headphone optimization on/off (including Bosendorfer) sound very dull and nasal. I've described that in a thread. But the CFX makes up for that. I can perfectly live with only the CFX binaural for headphones and CFX 4-channel through speakers. So I'm not complaining smile But it would have been better if they offered Bosendorfer binaural too.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/17/19 04:41 PM

Originally Posted by HwyStar
I have "not" watched this video yet... I guess this will be an interesting comparison to watch. Thanks, Bonners!:


A nice comparison! I know I am biased and I shouldn't judge a piano through YouTube, but I seem to prefer the sound in the N1X more than that of NV10 smile Well, unsurprisingly. There has always been something in the bass of Kawai digital pianos, I can't describe it well, but it's certain lack of clarity, a bit of boominess. When you play in the bass softly, there's an attack that's too fat/thick and reminds a generic bass instrument, almost like a bass guitar. Before anyone gets offended by that, it's an exaggeration on my side, to make my point. There's only a hint of what I am describing, I don't mean the NV10 sounds like a bass guitar (or bongo). IMO, it's just the way Kawai prefer to process their bass notes (I don't believe it's how it sounds in a real Kawai grand because I haven't heard that in recordings of Shigerus) and I don't think other people may find it bad, quite on the contrary, they may actually like the resulting "thickness" of the sound. Personally I prefer the Yamaha with its cleaner and more distinctive attack in the bass where the fundamental isn't so prominent.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/17/19 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene

As to binaural, unfortunately it's only the CFX that's binaural and as a consequence it's the only voice that sound good through headphones. All other voices, regardless of headphone optimization on/off (including Bosendorfer) sound very dull and nasal.


Unfortunately I think there are a few compromises to the alternative pianos no matter which platform you choose, at least for this generation. It's a good thing the default sounds are good though.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
I seem to prefer the sound in the N1X more than that of NV10 smile Well, unsurprisingly. There has always been something in the bass of Kawai digital pianos, I can't describe it well, but it's certain lack of clarity, a bit of boominess.


For what it's worth, I agree with this description. Kawai has a much deeper bass, and louder treble too. Yamaha has a more clear, distinct bass but an unnaturally muted treble compared to acoustics. The bass character is replicated in Garritan CFX too, so I'm thinking it may actually be a CFX thing and not just processing.
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/17/19 05:25 PM

I wonder how Bonners is recording the N1X? Are they just running the R/L N1X outputs to whatever digital recorder they are using?
In that case, the sound would be the CFX Stereo sample (not binaural). I assume they are not processing the sound post recording.

I also prefer the N1X CFX sound over the Kawai SK-EX and it's for exactly the same reason Cybergene mentioned. He articulated it very well. I played the ES8 and MP11SE and still felt the need to explore VST's. However, I feel kind of silly now that I've invested so much in VST's and a new Mac mini to run them. Since I've owned the N1X (a month and a half and just over 100 hours on it), I find myself preferring the N1X samples. They are very satisfying through the speakers and amazing through headphones (CFX binaural).

When I first got the N1X I think I tricked myself into preferring my VST's to avoid the realization of a superfluous VST expense. However, it's difficult to maintain that position now that I've been playing the N1X for so many hours. I still like my VST's for variety, but I might not have spent so much money (VSL CFX/Steinway/Mac mini = ~$3k) if I had just gotten the N1X first.

God Bless,
David
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/17/19 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by David B
I wonder how Bonners is recording the N1X? Are they just running the R/L N1X outputs to whatever digital recorder they are using?
In that case, the sound would be the CFX Stereo sample (not binaural). I assume they are not processing the sound post recording.


Good q. For the sake of a comparison I don't think they can assume listeners will be on headphones, in which case binaural through speakers would actually be a disadvantage.

It's great to hear how good the CFX is on the N1X. When I tested the N3X I thought it was ok but still preferred the sound of Garritan. Of course I only had an hour or so to play.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/17/19 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by David B
I wonder how Bonners is recording the N1X? Are they just running the R/L N1X outputs to whatever digital recorder they are using?
In that case, the sound would be the CFX Stereo sample (not binaural).

I also wondered the same and even left a comment to recommend the binaural patch. IMO they used the main 4-channel sound which is internally mixed down to stereo and doesn’t sound very good, at least IMO.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/17/19 05:48 PM

I think Garritan CFX still has the edge in terms of ultimate timbre beauty and especially with the Abbey Road studios natural reverb. However the N1X provides better control of its internal engine with perfect velocity mapping, half-pedaling, smooth key release, VRM, etc. which all makes the N1X’s CFX more playable for me.
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/17/19 06:44 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
I think Garritan CFX still has the edge in terms of ultimate timbre beauty and especially with the Abbey Road studios natural reverb. However the N1X provides better control of its internal engine with perfect velocity mapping, half-pedaling, smooth key release, VRM, etc. which all makes the N1X’s CFX more playable for me.


Again, I have to agree. I have the Garritan CFX lite version and it sounds a little more like a real piano, but the N1X CFX plays better for the reasons you've mentioned.

It's seems like you're able to consistently articulate how I feel. Next time someone asks me a question, I'll refer them to you. smile

God Bless,
David
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/17/19 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by David B
It's seems like you're able to consistently articulate how I feel. Next time someone asks me a question, I'll refer them to you. smile

Sure, we can request gold accounts from the forum administration for saving them database space laugh
Posted By: Iaroslav Vasiliev

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/17/19 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by HwyStar

It's the first comparison I've watched. Here Yamaha clearly wins in expressiveness IMO.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/17/19 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by David B
It's seems like you're able to consistently articulate how I feel. Next time someone asks me a question, I'll refer them to you. smile

Sure, we can request gold accounts from the forum administration for saving them database space laugh

Can you two lovebirds get a room already or something? wink grin
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/17/19 08:37 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Can you two lovebirds get a room already or something? wink grin

I thought the N1X thread WAS their room! What are you peeping in here for? shocked
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/17/19 08:42 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by David B
It's seems like you're able to consistently articulate how I feel. Next time someone asks me a question, I'll refer them to you. smile

Sure, we can request gold accounts from the forum administration for saving them database space laugh

Can you two lovebirds get a room already or something? wink grin

You can join us! You only need to thrice deny Pianoteq laugh
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/17/19 09:07 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by David B
It's seems like you're able to consistently articulate how I feel. Next time someone asks me a question, I'll refer them to you. smile

Sure, we can request gold accounts from the forum administration for saving them database space laugh

Can you two lovebirds get a room already or something? wink grin

You can join us! You only need to thrice deny Pianoteq laugh

shocked You just made me involuntarily cross myself! shocked
Posted By: Carlos-CR

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/17/19 09:37 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene


A nice comparison! I know I am biased and I shouldn't judge a piano through YouTube, but I seem to prefer the sound in the N1X more than that of NV10 smile Well, unsurprisingly. There has always been something in the bass of Kawai digital pianos, I can't describe it well, but it's certain lack of clarity, a bit of boominess. When you play in the bass softly, there's an attack that's too fat/thick and reminds a generic bass instrument, almost like a bass guitar. Before anyone gets offended by that, it's an exaggeration on my side, to make my point. There's only a hint of what I am describing, I don't mean the NV10 sounds like a bass guitar (or bongo). IMO, it's just the way Kawai prefer to process their bass notes (I don't believe it's how it sounds in a real Kawai grand because I haven't heard that in recordings of Shigerus) and I don't think other people may find it bad, quite on the contrary, they may actually like the resulting "thickness" of the sound. Personally I prefer the Yamaha with its cleaner and more distinctive attack in the bass where the fundamental isn't so prominent.

Hi, some years ago I was decided to get an small grand and tried some kawais and can confirm that they don’t sound like that. But I also tried a CA95 and that same quality you described was present. To me it sounds like an old warm stereo system. My guess is that this “signature” comes from the micro used in the recording more than the speakers system as it seems is present in many models with different speakers. And I hear a little of that same quality in vintage D and to me it’s very unrealistic.

Carlos
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/18/19 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by Carlos-CR
Originally Posted by CyberGene


A nice comparison! I know I am biased and I shouldn't judge a piano through YouTube, but I seem to prefer the sound in the N1X more than that of NV10 smile Well, unsurprisingly. There has always been something in the bass of Kawai digital pianos, I can't describe it well, but it's certain lack of clarity, a bit of boominess. When you play in the bass softly, there's an attack that's too fat/thick and reminds a generic bass instrument, almost like a bass guitar. Before anyone gets offended by that, it's an exaggeration on my side, to make my point. There's only a hint of what I am describing, I don't mean the NV10 sounds like a bass guitar (or bongo). IMO, it's just the way Kawai prefer to process their bass notes (I don't believe it's how it sounds in a real Kawai grand because I haven't heard that in recordings of Shigerus) and I don't think other people may find it bad, quite on the contrary, they may actually like the resulting "thickness" of the sound. Personally I prefer the Yamaha with its cleaner and more distinctive attack in the bass where the fundamental isn't so prominent.

Hi, some years ago I was decided to get an small grand and tried some kawais and can confirm that they don’t sound like that. But I also tried a CA95 and that same quality you described was present. To me it sounds like an old warm stereo system. My guess is that this “signature” comes from the micro used in the recording more than the speakers system as it seems is present in many models with different speakers. And I hear a little of that same quality in vintage D and to me it’s very unrealistic.

Yamaha's DP sound signature has been about a bright(ish) and clear sound across the overall range. Kawai's DP sound signature is mellower/warmer and has stronger emphasis on the bass. The stronger bass on the Kawais makes the middle registers sound richer than Yamaha's, imo. But the side-effect is that the lower octaves become muddy quickly, even with light use of the pedal (and this does not happen on an acoustic piano, on the CLPs or pianoteq, for example). These differences can be also heard via headphones or line-out recordings, such as on the Bonner's video posted above. When reproducing the sound via speakers, these differences are even more evident: on Yamaha's top-range models the sound is clear but "thinner" due to the (relative) lack of bass, whereas on Kawai's top-range models the overall sound is richer but "muddy" and "boomy". It then boils down to a matter of preference. In any case, these DPs sound very good as digital pianos but are light-years away for being able to match the clarity and timbre of an average grand piano...
Posted By: MrKaramba

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/18/19 11:43 AM

As written by CyberGene, Yamaha soprano register are artificially muffled and rolled off, What some of you recogniZe as expressiveness, is in my opinion just he tone, which is very (and far too much for my taste) sweet.

Kawai sounds like much better piano, with open open. It's brother, but it's also fuller in all areas and not muffled

Bombing bass was a problem with CA97 SERIES. Didn't play 98 or NV10 to comment on that, but based only on YouTube videos Kawai is clear winner
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/18/19 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by MrKaramba
As written by CyberGene, Yamaha soprano register are artificially muffled and rolled off

I didn't say that, it was Gombessa. Actually, I find the high register in my N1X exactly to my liking, neither too bright, nor too muffled. When I recently played a CA78, I was disappointed by slightly piercing top octaves.
Posted By: MrKaramba

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/18/19 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by MrKaramba
As written by CyberGene, Yamaha soprano register are artificially muffled and rolled off

I didn't say that, it was Gombessa. Actually, I find the high register in my N1X exactly to my liking, neither too bright, nor too muffled. When I recently played a CA78, I was disappointed by slightly piercing top octaves.


Oh, sorry than. Was writing while walking on the corridor at work laugh top octovaes need to have a bit of piercing... And concert grands prepared for performing with orhetra can be sometimes even painful, but you need this to cut through orhetra in 2000 seats hall...
However, I would not like to have it at home, but Yamaha's sounds like muffled or covered by a coat
Posted By: Nordomus

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/18/19 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by MrKaramba
As written by CyberGene, Yamaha soprano register are artificially muffled and rolled off, What some of you recogniZe as expressiveness, is in my opinion just he tone, which is very (and far too much for my taste) sweet.

Kawai sounds like much better piano, with open open. It's brother, but it's also fuller in all areas and not muffled

Bombing bass was a problem with CA97 SERIES. Didn't play 98 or NV10 to comment on that, but based only on YouTube videos Kawai is clear winner


IMO on CA98 it's not too boomy. It's very nice, clear and warm. Ok it CAN be boomy when playing lots of notes in bass with sustain but that's how it suposed to be. And remember to use "wall eq" option when testing.
Each piano has it's own characteristics and merits and in a way I like them all smile I really want to test N1X.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/18/19 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by Nordomus
I really want to test N1X.

Dare you test the N1X after your piano adventures since December? You've owned a Roland and a Kawai. Test an N1X and you are daring fate on being overtaken by G.A.S. and having owned all a piano from each of the top three brands in a 3 month span! wink grin
Posted By: Nordomus

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/18/19 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by Nordomus
I really want to test N1X.

Dare you test the N1X after your piano adventures since December? You've owned a Roland and a Kawai. Test an N1X and you are daring fate on being overtaken by G.A.S. and having owned all a piano from each of the top three brands in a 3 month span! wink grin

Haha, test like test in shop out of curiosity not test like test for new purchase, I'm done with changing pianos for this year wink Gonna wait for new models in upcoming years.
Posted By: Carlos-CR

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/18/19 08:19 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by MrKaramba
As written by CyberGene, Yamaha soprano register are artificially muffled and rolled off

I didn't say that, it was Gombessa. Actually, I find the high register in my N1X exactly to my liking, neither too bright, nor too muffled. When I recently played a CA78, I was disappointed by slightly piercing top octaves.


One interesting test I did today was to try pianoteq through my samson rubicon r6a speakers and through my CVP305 internal speakers. With the samsom's the top octaves sound piercing and there is a clear increase in loudness from F4 upwards. But with the CVP305 internal speakers the sound is more homogeneous and there is no piercing top range (although it comes a little muffled)

My conclusion is that yamaha chooses very well its speakers to give a very likeable sound without any outstanding defect and it matches very well the sound of a recorded piano. And maybe other manufacturers, even having "better" ingredients (samples, actions, speakers,.. whatever) don't match each part of the "piano equation" as well as yamaha does.

Carlos
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/18/19 08:29 PM

A Spaniard who knows that the word is homogeneous, not homogenous. Bravo!
Posted By: Carlos-CR

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/18/19 09:48 PM

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
A Spaniard who knows that the word is homogeneous, not homogenous. Bravo!

Well.. spellchecker's merit.. but thanks :-)
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/20/19 09:46 AM

Disaster has befallen my piano! I think I may have our first test of how Yamaha does with warranty service. Tonight I was closing up the fall board after practice and it made a funny noise and the left side of the fall board popped out of its hinge. Now I can’t get it back on! There are U shaped brackets on the side of the piano and pins on the fall board that fit in the slot in the bracket. However if I get one side in, the other side is slightly too far to let the pin sit in the slot. It’s like the side of the piano moved or the pin recessed back in to the hinge mechanism. Either way I can’t get the fall board back in. Calling the dealer tomorrow.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/20/19 12:02 PM

Yikes. Hope you get it sorted.

Many soft close mechanisms require you to set the fallboard down at a slight angle (about 3 inches from fully open). Also, you may want to see if the soft-close mechanism is housed in the bracket--it may have swung to "closed" when the fallboard popped out, which is not letting the pin reseat, so you may have to find a way to "open" it before it will accept the pin (some Bosendorfers are like this).
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/20/19 12:07 PM

Your piano has come unhinged? It's joints are failing?

That sounds very familiar. I'm coming unhinged and my joints are failing. Well, that's age for you! smile

So, how old is your piano?
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/22/19 05:42 AM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
Yikes. Hope you get it sorted.

Many soft close mechanisms require you to set the fallboard down at a slight angle (about 3 inches from fully open). Also, you may want to see if the soft-close mechanism is housed in the bracket--it may have swung to "closed" when the fallboard popped out, which is not letting the pin reseat, so you may have to find a way to "open" it before it will accept the pin (some Bosendorfers are like this).


Yeah I've looked at it a bit, the mechanism is on the fallboard itself, one on each side. They were misaligned but I was able to turn them to be the same way. The pins still don't mesh with the brackets on the body of the piano. I suspect the left side mechanism is broken and receded in to its housing a little bit, making it impossible to get the fallboard back in. My guess is the tech will need to replace the mechanism. It looks like an easy fix, three exposed screws. Dealer is working on finding a tech in the area who can do it (I'm a bit far from their store.)
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/22/19 06:56 AM

Hopefully they will fix it easily. Do you push the fall board forcefully when closing? In the manual they say it’s not recommended because it can break the mechanism. I’m always letting it close by itself.
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/22/19 07:06 AM

I always let mine close slowly on its own. I actually enjoy the peacefulness of it. It's like saying "Amen" after a prayer. smile

I love to tinker. If it were my fallboard, I'd be taking it apart to try and figure out what's wrong. I'm sure it will get sorted out soon.

God Bless,
David
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/22/19 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Hopefully they will fix it easily. Do you push the fall board forcefully when closing? In the manual they say it’s not recommended because it can break the mechanism. I’m always letting it close by itself.


That's a good question. I don't, but I'll make sure my son isn't. I missed that in the manual!
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/22/19 05:01 PM

N1X is now €7499, down from €7899 at Thomann. D*mn!
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/22/19 05:09 PM

Just got off the phone with a tech. I'm taking a photo of the part so he can make sure we are talking about the same thing. He recently fixed a slow close mechanism on a Yamaha acoustic and may have the part he needs on hand and would be able to come out in two weeks to replace it. Here's hoping Yamaha reuses a lot of parts between pianos because otherwise he suspects it will be 6 weeks for Yamaha to ship him a new one frown
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/22/19 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
N1X is now €7499, down from €7899 at Thomann. D*mn!


Sorry to hear that, but suspect you already know that early adopters pay the highest price across a product's life cycle smile It's just going to keep going down (remember the N1 sells for <$6k now). Don't worry, your NV-10 brethren are right there with you on this.
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/22/19 05:49 PM

I hope to be a NV10 clansman. But that must wait for two years. So perhaps I won't have to pay the early-adopters penalty?
Originally Posted by Gombessa
... you already know that early adopters pay the highest price across a product's life cycle.
Don't worry, your NV-10 brethren are right there with you on this.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/22/19 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I hope to be a NV10 clansman. But that must wait for two years. So perhaps I won't have to pay the early-adopters penalty?


That'll be over 3 years from initial release in the US, so I'm sure you'll be able to find it at an agreeable discount (easily less than $10k). But Kawai may have a new revision of their hardware and sound engine by then, too wink
Posted By: newer player

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/22/19 06:09 PM

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I hope to be a NV10 clansman. But that must wait for two years. So perhaps I won't have to pay the early-adopters penalty?

It will be NV10x by then so you will be in the same boat.
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/22/19 06:35 PM

It's not the price that most concerns me. It's the defects that must be worked out.
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I hope to be a NV10 clansman. But that must wait for two years. So perhaps I won't have to pay the early-adopters penalty?
That'll be over 3 years from initial release in the US, so I'm sure you'll be able to find it at an agreeable discount (easily less than $10k). But Kawai may have a new revision of their hardware and sound engine by then, too wink
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/22/19 06:42 PM

Honestly, three years should be more than enough time to incorporate any "running changes" in production to address systemic issues. But I suspect your best bet for information will be to keep an eye on the NV10 threads here; you'll be able to see if we get any more reports of buzzing (seems to have quieted down already), broken hammers (two reports so far), etc. over the next couple of years.
Posted By: DionG

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/22/19 06:50 PM

Did someone notice the change to red velvet on the Novus in Bonners newest video (comparing the NV10 to N1X): When I tried out the Novus one year ago it was grey. Do they ship now with red?
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/22/19 07:23 PM

I just noticed and compared to online videos. This is the only one I could spot with red felt. Incidentally, I much prefer this color.
Posted By: TomLC

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/22/19 09:11 PM

I just looked at that video and the felt is, indeed, red. The replacement I received last Thursday is brand new from Kawai’s US Distribution center. It has black felt. Maybe Europe gets red, and US/CA get black?
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/22/19 11:36 PM

Maybe it's just like the clear acrylic front beams that some dealers get, just a touch of flair for the showroom. Or...

Kawai's GL and GX acoustics have black felt too... Perhaps Kawai is making a change for 2019?

BTW, for you N1X folks, this is part of the reason it's going to be hard to catch the NV10 thread. You guys just don't have enough drama and speculation going on with your pianos wink
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/23/19 01:28 AM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
BTW, for you N1X folks, this is part of the reason it's going to be hard to catch the NV10 thread. You guys just don't have enough drama and speculation going on with your pianos wink

It seems like there is hardly anything to speculate on. Like almost only, "when is the N2X coming out?" Unlike an NV20, there doesn't even seem to be the need to wonder if there will be an N2X! smile
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/23/19 02:25 AM

Yeah, when was the last time anyone posted *anything* about the felt strip on an AvantGrand? wink

I think I had a post early on in the monster NV10 thread about it soon after I got mine!
Posted By: bSharp(C)yclist

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/23/19 01:24 PM

Maybe the N2X will come next year. Good for me. When I was considering the N2, people told me to wait, the N2X is coming. Well, it hasn't, so I'm glad I didn't wait smile
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/23/19 10:14 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
N1X is now €7499, down from €7899 at Thomann. D*mn!

Another observation- after your amazing list of issues with NU1X, I hardly noticed any complaints or observations from you at all about the N1X. Is it just perfect for you or did you just get exhausted with the evaluation of the NU1X that you had no energy left to beat on your N1X and find all the issue? wink <--- tongue in cheek!
Posted By: Carlos-CR

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/23/19 10:23 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by CyberGene
N1X is now €7499, down from €7899 at Thomann. D*mn!

Another observation- after your amazing list of issues with NU1X, I hardly noticed any complaints or observations from you at all about the N1X. Is it just perfect for you or did you just get exhausted with the evaluation of the NU1X that you had no energy left to beat on your N1X and find all the issue? wink <--- tongue in cheek!


Maybe he is just playing now =:-O

Carlos
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/23/19 10:26 PM

Originally Posted by Carlos-CR
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by CyberGene
N1X is now €7499, down from €7899 at Thomann. D*mn!

Another observation- after your amazing list of issues with NU1X, I hardly noticed any complaints or observations from you at all about the N1X. Is it just perfect for you or did you just get exhausted with the evaluation of the NU1X that you had no energy left to beat on your N1X and find all the issue? wink <--- tongue in cheek!


Maybe he is just playing now =:-O

Carlos

Good answer! grin
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/23/19 10:53 PM

Ha, you guessed it, I was just playing! smile It’s usually my playing time, between 12AM and 2AM, wife and daughter sleeping and me having two hours alone at night smile But I was lazy today and played only 20 minutes. Feel guilty now frown

Let me think of some complaints. The sustain pedal is a bit more noisy than what I would have liked, especially on pedal up. It’s a purely mechanical noise which is somehow related to the rubber bushing that creates the grand piano resistance emulation.

Very nit picky: trills in the middle of the keyboard with the binaural patch are somehow rough. Still don’t know what exactly is off but I guess it sounds a bit like lacking enough reverberation. Maybe it’s related to note off tails. It’s very very subtle though.

Even more nit picky and I guess not a defect but rather an effect that’s also there on grand pianos. Due to the counterweights (?) and or probably heavier bass keys, it seems bass keys require more force to produce ppp compared to the middle or high ranges. It’s actually something that I got used too and comes very useful since it allows me to better control quiet dynamics in the bass which is usually the purpose of counterweights. But it came as something I had to adapt to.

Really can’t think of anything else smile
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/23/19 11:23 PM

Now that I suspected the key off release as the reason for trill sounding a bit abrupt, I remembered something I read in the Garritan CFX manual and I found it:

Quote
Example: You're recording a very fast, very dense passage in your project, so in order to get a very short staccato sound from the piano, you turn the Room/Release Decay knob and the Release Crossfade knob down until you get the definition from each individual note that you need.


I think that’s what happens with the CFX binaural, it’s a bit more staccato-ish with trills. It’s sad there’s no release decay and cross fade settings in the menu. But I’m wondering if that’s how a new grand piano will sound too. If the dampers are still new they will be able to dampen the sound quicker than when they wear off. I also remembered the “soft release” button in Nord pianos:
Quote
Soft Release
A Soft Release-mode adds a slightly longer release, more suitable for legato playing, emulating a looser damper tension in an acoustic or an electro mechanical instrument.

So, as I said, maybe the N1X acts like a new grand with tight dampers. On the other hand I haven’t noticed that through speakers but there’s the actual reverberation of our living room that would mask it so I can’t be sure.
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/25/19 05:19 AM

The tech isn't able to come out for two weeks but he had me take some pictures and look more closely for damage. I did and now I'm convinced the problem is not the fallboard, it's the somehow the left cheek has popped out about 1/4 inch or so. I took some pictures, can you see enough in them to tell me if I'm crazy or not? It certainly would explain why the fallboard won't seat any more, it can't reach the left bracket because it's moved over. I've looked the fallboard up and down and it seems totally fine, and both hinges seem aligned correctly. The left top picture the right top is the most obvious to me. You can see wood and pins and stuff that you can't see on the right, the gap is much smaller. Similarly on the bottom, but less obvious visible stuff, the gap looks much bigger on the left than right.

Here's the gallery where you can see the imaged rotated, sorry they aren't here in the post
http://forum.pianoworld.com//ubbthreads.php/galleries/2842125.html#Post2842125

Left Top
[Linked Image]

Right Top
[Linked Image]

Left Bottom
[Linked Image]

Right Bottom
[Linked Image]

Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/25/19 05:34 AM

Originally Posted by Chrispy
The tech isn't able to come out for two weeks but he had me take some pictures and look more closely for damage. I did and now I'm convinced the problem is not the fallboard, it's the somehow the left cheek has popped out about 1/4 inch or so. I took some pictures, can you see enough in them to tell me if I'm crazy or not? It certainly would explain why the fallboard won't seat any more, it can't reach the left bracket because it's moved over. I've looked the fallboard up and down and it seems totally fine, and both hinges seem aligned correctly. The left top picture the right top is the most obvious to me. You can see wood and pins and stuff that you can't see on the right, the gap is much smaller. Similarly on the bottom, but less obvious visible stuff, the gap looks much bigger on the left than right.

Here's the gallery where you can see the imaged rotated, sorry they aren't here in the post
http://forum.pianoworld.com//ubbthreads.php/galleries/2842125.html#Post2842125

Left Top
[Linked Image]

Right Top
[Linked Image]

Left Bottom
[Linked Image]

Right Bottom
[Linked Image]


It does look like an alignment issue from your photos. I will be interested in what your tech says about this.

BTW, were you the one that said your N1X is a dust magnet? I see that from these photos, and especially the last one! I wonder if these surfaces are carrying an electrostatic charge because there was not enough anti-static additives in the plastic during manufacturing. I'm also wondering if an anti-static spray would help.
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/25/19 05:47 AM

Originally Posted by Chrispy
I took some pictures, can you see enough in them to tell me if I'm crazy or not?


I'm not home right now otherwise I'd check mine. I'll be home tomorrow and will compare it with yours.

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop


BTW, were you the one that said your N1X is a dust magnet? I see that from these photos, and especially the last one! I wonder if these surfaces are carrying an electrostatic charge because there was not enough anti-static additives in the plastic during manufacturing. I'm also wondering if an anti-static spray would help.


Mine collects dust like crazy. I have to dust it two to three times a day. It's a phenomenon.

God Bless,
David
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/25/19 05:50 AM

If you've every owned a black car or taken direct flash photos of one wink it's probably not some kind of electrostatic charge, this just looks like gloss black effect. You see dust way more easily.

Chrispy, hope you get it resolved without any issue. Despite what some here may profess, these are complex, heavy machines and some fraction are likely to suffer from manufacturing/shipping issues, even Yamaha wink The mark of a good maker is in many ways how they will deal with such issues when they arise.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/25/19 05:50 AM

If you've every owned a black car or taken direct flash photos of one, I think the effect would be clear wink It's probably not some kind of electrostatic charge, this just looks like "gloss black" effect. You see dust way more easily on this type of surface, especially with direct flash illumination.

Chrispy, hope you get it resolved without any issue. Despite what some here may profess, these are complex, heavy machines and some fraction are likely to suffer from manufacturing/shipping issues, even Yamaha wink The mark of a good maker is in many ways how they will deal with such issues when they arise.
Posted By: navindra

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/25/19 06:04 AM

Was the piano assembled on-site or at the dealer's? Will you accept a repair on this? Why wait 2 weeks for an uncertain resolution -- save time and just ask to start the exchange process now.
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/25/19 07:26 AM

It was assembled on site fresh out of boxes. I’ll don’t suspect the tech will be able to repair and yes I’d rather have a replacement. I’ll see what he says tomorrow after seeing the pictures and likely call the store.
Posted By: navindra

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/25/19 07:48 AM

FYI the threshold for exchanging should be low. I had my old CA98 exchanged due to some surface scratches that were not otherwise visible in normal use... your issue is much more significant. Good luck!
Posted By: spanishbuddha

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/26/19 06:45 AM

R
Originally Posted by David B


Mine collects dust like crazy. I have to dust scratch it two to three times a day. It's a phenomenon.

God Bless,
David

Be careful, very careful how you do this or you’ll end up with a myriad of tiny swirls in the sheen visible in bright light. I have a PE finished piano and learned to love the dust, and fingerprints.
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/26/19 06:59 AM

Originally Posted by spanishbuddha
R
Originally Posted by David B


Mine collects dust like crazy. I have to dust scratch it two to three times a day. It's a phenomenon.

God Bless,
David

Be careful, very careful how you do this or you’ll end up with a myriad of tiny swirls in the sheen visible in bright light. I have a PE finished piano and learned to love the dust, and fingerprints.


I've already noticed quite a few small scratches. Isn't there anyway to buff small scratches out of the finish?

It's just some type of wood (I don't believe it's actual ebony, maybe birch?) painted black and some form of clear coat finish. Why can't the small scratches be buffed out with a soft cloth and some polish/compound?

God Bless,
David
Posted By: spanishbuddha

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/26/19 10:57 AM

There are several old threads covering the care and repair of different finishes. For example for PE here and here, but there are others that might be worth reading.
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/26/19 11:49 AM

Remember that PE (short for "Polished Ebony") is not a material name, but just a name for the color. It is just marketing lingo meaning "shiny black".

The actual material to create a PE look may differ. These days it is usually done with a polyester clear coat but lacquer is also in use (but I doubt that it is used for any DPs). Polyester is actually quite durable (more so than lacquer). So if you want to be absolutely sure about how to take care of the finish, make sure to find out if you are indeed dealing with polyester PE and then look up the care instruction for a polyester finish.
Also, IIRC from what I've read on PW, buffing out scratches from a polyester coat is essentially impossible to DIY.
(EDIT: Or at least very difficult. Here's an old thread about buffing polyester PE.)

Personally, I'm using the following routine for cleaning (but not too often - only every few weeks):

I have three different microfiber cloths that I don't use for anything else than cleaning the piano, and that each has its dedicated step (i.e. I don't mix them, so I made sure to have cloths of different colors):

The first one is very soft and fluffy. I use this to dust off the piano before cleaning, so that most of the particles that can create scratches are gone. And when dusting, I only touch the piano lightly, without any pressure (essentially just the weight of the cloth itself).

The other two are normal microfiber cloths. One is wet with a spray of a cleaning agent (I use this one, but similar ones are surely fine too), which I use to gently rub/clean the surface, the other is dry which I use to (immediately) dry off the moisture from the first (to avoid streaks).

Also, I usually try to avoid to put objects (or books, etc.) on top of the piano. Even soft ones that wouldn't scratch by themselves, but might create scratches when rubbing against the dust that has already collected.
Posted By: TomLC

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/26/19 01:16 PM

I use this: https://www.amazon.com/Music-Nomad-...;qid=1556284432&s=gateway&sr=8-1
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/26/19 01:43 PM

Funny, I have almost exactly the same process as JoBert. And I use Windex (sprayed onto the cloth and not directly on the piano) for removal of anything left over from the initial dusting--it dries workout leaving streaks.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/26/19 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
Funny, I have almost exactly the same process as JoBert. And I use Windex (sprayed onto the cloth and not directly on the piano) for removal of anything left over from the initial dusting--it dries workout leaving streaks.

Has anyone tried an antistatic spray to see if that would help with dust accumulation?
Posted By: newer player

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/26/19 03:15 PM

We use air purifiers to control indoor dust and pollen. They make a huge difference.

The big Honeywell "branded" units are effective but somewhat noisy.

We now have the new Sharp units as the motors are very quiet and the units are not so expensive. The fans get noisy when the filters need replacing. The OEM filters are a bit pricey but last a long time; you can also just DIY tape in commercial filters for a few dollars albeit it takes some time and the filtration is less effective.

http://www.air-purifier-power.com/doityourselfhepadyi120510.html
Posted By: KevinM

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/26/19 03:34 PM

I think even if I had the money to go for the PE finish on a piano I wouldn't. The dust and smudges from finger oils on the surface would just bug me too much. I spend enough time cleaning my glasses.

So though the non PE surfaces don't look immediately so nice I will be less annoyed by the finger marks and dust being less obvious on them when they are in use.
Posted By: spanishbuddha

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/26/19 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by KevinM
I think even if I had the money to go for the PE finish on a piano I wouldn't. The dust and smudges from finger oils on the surface would just bug me too much. I spend enough time cleaning my glasses.

So though the non PE surfaces don't look immediately so nice I will be less annoyed by the finger marks and dust being less obvious on them when they are in use.

Well I’m a bit OCD about tidiness, minimalistic, clean, things in order and their ‘right’ place. Slowly getting better as I age and some interesting life experiences. You could write your name in the dust on my DP, also my grandchildren have free access. The dust and fingerprints doesn’t bother me at all, it once did. It once did. It once really did mad The music and practice is what it’s for, it’s an instrument, although I think also quite an attractive piece of furniture. Thinking now about digging out the cleaning kit. Just thinking though. wink
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/26/19 05:48 PM

I will say the camera really accentuates the dust and other marks. The pictures where it looks like a liquid must be sweat from the movers (yuck!) You can’t see it with the naked eye but now I want to scrub it down...
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/26/19 05:50 PM

Originally Posted by Chrispy
I will say the camera really accentuates the dust and other marks. The pictures where it looks like a liquid must be sweat from the movers (yuck!) You can’t see it with the naked eye but now I want to scrub it down...

Yep, that's what I had originally guessed for photos 1 & 3, but maybe not the movers wink
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/26/19 06:17 PM

I’m also one of those OCD guys but after having a kid you either change or better jump from a bridge smile The daughter is so destructive... I simply accepted the objects are, well, objects smile I clean porridge from the external surfaces of my N1X on daily basis but at least for now she’s not tall enough to pour it over the keys. Or the wife didn’t tell me, knowing me well laugh
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/26/19 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by Chrispy
I will say the camera really accentuates the dust and other marks. The pictures where it looks like a liquid must be sweat from the movers (yuck!) You can’t see it with the naked eye but now I want to scrub it down...


They shouldn't have been handling the piano in that location. If they were lifting it up from there, that could account for a possible structural integrity issue. The assembly instructions in the manual show where to lift from and that is underneath the main unit.

God Bless,
David
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/26/19 06:21 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
I’m also one of those OCD guys but after having a kid you either change or better jump from a bridge smile The daughter is so destructive... I simply accepted the objects are, well, objects smile I clean porridge from the external surfaces of my N1X on daily basis but at least for now she’s not tall enough to pour it over the keys. Or the wife didn’t tell me, knowing me well laugh

Well, my friend, I hope one day you don't return home from work and find some of the piano keys sticking. Having a daughter, who of course, once upon a time, was the age of yours, I know that they want nothing better than to pour the porridge or the contents of their sippy cup on any object which doesn't like porridge or sippy cup contents poured on it!
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/26/19 09:05 PM



Thanks.

I just ordered their Cleaning Kit.

God Bless,
David
Posted By: TomLC

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/26/19 09:14 PM

Originally Posted by David B


Thanks.

I just ordered their Cleaning Kit.

God Bless,
David


That’s exactly what I have. Once a week is more than enough.
Posted By: Osho

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/27/19 12:43 AM

Originally Posted by TomLC
Originally Posted by David B


Thanks.

I just ordered their Cleaning Kit.

God Bless,
David


That’s exactly what I have. Once a week is more than enough.

You guys are making me feel bad for not even dusting the NV10 regularly smile.

Osho
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/27/19 10:03 AM

A satin black NV10 would be cheaper and easier on the dust.
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/27/19 12:52 PM

My piano is PE finished ... and I don't have ANY issue with the dust.

But my wife does.

Every second week comes "dusting day". Everything gets dusted.
She uses one of those long fluffy sticks. (Long ago they'd have feathers doing the work, but these days they have some synthetic shamalamabob material for that.)
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/27/19 01:47 PM

What about a self-dusting piano?
Robotic arms attached to the piano (hidden when not in use) automatically sense excess dust and go to work. We can call this system the Shamalamabob NV10 (optional add-on). wink
Posted By: sjlin0

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/28/19 11:09 PM

After 2 months of waiting .. it finally arrived, and I am blown away. Very impressive action and sound quality.

[img]https://imgur.com/gJL3KnU[/img]

There are something I couldn't realize from the manual:

1. It is heavy. Almost 600 lbs including the bottom wooden pallet and wrappings of two huge boxes. It took quite some efforts to assemble. I'd recommend to move/assemble it with more than 2 guys.

2. It delivers stunning and powerful sound. For a living room with 20'x18'x8' on hardwood floor, it is almost too powerful. Even the volume dialed to10 o'clock, the wood floor shakes a lot ... can feel the strong vibration from my feet. But I guess even an acoustic grand will do that easily since the floor is not solid. Should it be placed on a carpet?
Posted By: TomLC

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/28/19 11:24 PM

Haha, Turn it down....:) Looking great!
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/28/19 11:35 PM

Yes, it looks great.
Posted By: JJHLH

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/28/19 11:56 PM

Congratulations! That’s a beautiful instrument.
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/29/19 02:02 AM

@ Sjlin0

That is one sexy looking piano. Congratulations!

I've been playing my N1X for 4 hours today (on and off) and I still don't want to close the fallboard.

God Bless,
David
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/29/19 05:43 AM

Congrats! Welcome to the club smile
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/29/19 12:14 PM

Is there anyone here who has had the chance of playing both the N1 and the N1X?
If so, do you truly feel the N1X to be a much better instrument despite similar specs to the N1?
Although the action is identical in terms of design, dimensions, etc.., Yamaha could’ve still improved upon it.
For example: better implementation, regulation, curation, and overall attention given by higher level technicians. I’m speculating, but still I’m intrigued.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/29/19 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14
Is there anyone here who has had the chance of playing both the N1 and the N1X?
If so, do you truly feel the N1X to be a much better instrument despite similar specs to the N1?
Although the action is identical in terms of design, dimensions, etc.., Yamaha could’ve still improved upon it.
For example: better implementation, regulation, curation, and overall attention given by higher level technicians. I’m speculating, but still I’m intrigued.

I haven’t yet had the courage to open mine but from marketing pictures it seems the jack is now also plastic. On the N1 only the repetition lever was plastic. That’s not something related to the keyboard feel though, rather than to durability of the action. But on the other hand it means Yamaha changed something in the action so they might have also changed other parameters that are not apparent but contribute to different (improved) feel.
Posted By: pianokat123

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/29/19 01:58 PM

I received a text message today saying my N1X has arrived earlier than expected and is ready for delivery - TOMORROW! Excited is an understatement laugh
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/29/19 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Pete14
Is there anyone here who has had the chance of playing both the N1 and the N1X?
If so, do you truly feel the N1X to be a much better instrument despite similar specs to the N1?
Although the action is identical in terms of design, dimensions, etc.., Yamaha could’ve still improved upon it.
For example: better implementation, regulation, curation, and overall attention given by higher level technicians. I’m speculating, but still I’m intrigued.

I haven’t yet had the courage to open mine but from marketing pictures it seems the jack is now also plastic. On the N1 only the repetition lever was plastic. That’s not something related to the keyboard feel though, rather than to durability of the action. But on the other hand it means Yamaha changed something in the action so they might have also changed other parameters that are not apparent but contribute to different (improved) feel.


CG, you surely meant to say carbon fiber; plastic is what the cheapskates at Kawai use! wink

Seriously: what if Yamaha decided to quietly up the ante for the N1X to make it a direct NV10 competitor?
Price-wise it would seem like a hypothetical N2X would be competing against the NV10; however, there will be no N2X (sorry), so that assignment now goes to the cheaper N1X. So yes, I speculate, Yamaha is out to get Kawai and their weapon of choice is the N1X! laugh
Posted By: KevinM

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/29/19 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by pianokat123
I received a text message today saying my N1X has arrived earlier than expected and is ready for delivery - TOMORROW! Excited is an understatement laugh


I think the pianokat is having kittens.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/29/19 02:55 PM

Somebody should start counting N1X owners already! We need to pass them novuses! wink
Posted By: lvercaut

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/29/19 03:27 PM

Originally Posted by pianokat123
I received a text message today saying my N1X has arrived earlier than expected and is ready for delivery - TOMORROW! Excited is an understatement laugh


Haha, i'm happy in your place ! Congrats !
It IS a beautiful piano !
Posted By: thickfingers

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/29/19 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by KevinM
Originally Posted by pianokat123
I received a text message today saying my N1X has arrived earlier than expected and is ready for delivery - TOMORROW! Excited is an understatement laugh


I think the pianokat is having kittens.

Actually, probably not. "Having kittens" is more for alarm than excitement, in the English vernacular. Good try, though. eek
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/29/19 04:21 PM

Originally Posted by pianokat123
I received a text message today saying my N1X has arrived earlier than expected and is ready for delivery - TOMORROW! Excited is an understatement laugh


I can feel the eagerness of your anticipation.

I've owned my N1X for almost two months now and I still get a release of the good feeling hormones when I see and play the piano.

It's like a new car smell that is never going to go away. smile

God Bless,
David
Posted By: johnstaf

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/29/19 05:31 PM

Originally Posted by KevinM
Originally Posted by pianokat123
I received a text message today saying my N1X has arrived earlier than expected and is ready for delivery - TOMORROW! Excited is an understatement laugh


I think the pianokat is having kittens.


So would I if I had an N1X coming tomorrow!
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/30/19 02:22 AM

Stay on topic, people! cry
Posted By: Bro'

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/30/19 03:24 AM

I join the club!
Expected delivery ... Late june! frown
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/30/19 03:44 AM

Originally Posted by Bro'
I join the club!
Expected delivery ... Late june! frown


Congratulations.

Sorry you have to wait so long. Hopefully, you'll get it earlier. I received mine a few weeks earlier than anticipated. It was a pleasant surprise.

God bless,
David
Posted By: percy64

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/30/19 06:54 AM

Still (at least) 2 weeks to go for me
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/30/19 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by pianokat123
I received a text message today saying my N1X has arrived earlier than expected and is ready for delivery - TOMORROW! Excited is an understatement laugh

And????
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/30/19 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by pianokat123
I received a text message today saying my N1X has arrived earlier than expected and is ready for delivery - TOMORROW! Excited is an understatement laugh

And????

pianokat123 is still playing. It's like that the first days with N1X, you can't get enough smile
Posted By: pianokat123

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/30/19 01:07 PM

Wow! I had my N1X delivered today and it truly is amazing! Wonderful sound through the headphones too. In fact I thought the sound was coming from the piano when I first tried them on, the binaural sampling is very impressive. I'd go as far to say the sound is even better than through headphones than the instrument itself. I have the Sennheiser HD6xx headphones (purchased through Massdrop thanks to recommendations from this page).

My kids were too interested in the piano to let me play properly until they were in bed, although I've had a good 1-2 hours on it now (it's 9pm here in Australia) and I am very pleased with my purchase. I use a Yamaha C2 in my teaching studio and it's a beautiful instrument, the N1X isn't exactly the same as the C2 (obviously) but the action is pretty close. I think I probably just need to get used to the sound the N1X makes - it is a digital instrument after all. The bass is impressive.

I'm rambling a little! Will post more as the days go on.
Hopefully this image works: [img]https://imgur.com/a/hoy06ui[/img]
We are re-arranging photo frames and furniture so the wall above is screaming for a nice big print!

Oh and FYI I actually really dislike cats smile dogs are much better!
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/30/19 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by pianokat123
Hopefully this image works: [img]https://imgur.com/a/hoy06ui[/img]

reposting the image for pianokat:
[Linked Image]
Posted By: EPW

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/30/19 01:27 PM

Beautiful room and nice piano too smile
Posted By: Bro'

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/30/19 02:56 PM

Originally Posted by David B
Originally Posted by Bro'
I join the club!
Expected delivery ... Late june! frown


Congratulations.

Sorry you have to wait so long. Hopefully, you'll get it earlier. I received mine a few weeks earlier than anticipated. It was a pleasant surprise.

God bless,
David


Thanks!
Waited a couple of months first reviews, all from you guys... have to wait a couple more to feel as happy as you, lucky N1X owners, are.
Hope to have an early pleasant surprise too!
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/30/19 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by pianokat123
I'd go as far to say the sound is even better than through headphones than the instrument itself.


I prefer the CFX binaural sample also. It seems to be a bit brighter compared to the multi-channel CFX sample. While the speaker system on the N1X is nice, I augment it with external studio monitors. I can plug in my headphone jack and listen to the binaural sample through the external monitors and I wish I could get that same sound through the internal speakers.

I still find myself defaulting to the N1X CFX and Bosendorfer over my expensive VSL samples. I'm very impressed with Yamaha's product overall.

God Bless,
David
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 04/30/19 03:06 PM

When I play with the binaural samples through the headphones, I can hear every little detail in the sound, I can hear resonances, I can hear the pedal "loom", etc. With speakers it's a bit muffled. I'm not sure if one is better or the other because, as I said previously, the ultra detailed piano sound we're sometimes used to is the one we hear in recordings with close miking and not the one we hear when we play real grand pianos. Whenever I've played real grand pianos it was rather muffled and dull to me as a player. But the binaural samples are supposed to be what a player hears, so I might be wrong that the sound through the speakers is the realistic sound of a real CFX. Maybe the real beast isn't muffled at all but is rather bright and punchy even for the player. Who knows.

Anyway, with my neighbors complaining about playing through speakers at proper volume, I have almost no choice, so binaural and headphone it is...
Posted By: J5on

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/01/19 02:01 AM

Originally Posted by pianokat123
Wow! I had my N1X delivered today and it truly is amazing! Wonderful sound through the headphones too. In fact I thought the sound was coming from the piano when I first tried them on, the binaural sampling is very impressive. I'd go as far to say the sound is even better than through headphones than the instrument itself. I have the Sennheiser HD6xx headphones (purchased through Massdrop thanks to recommendations from this page).

My kids were too interested in the piano to let me play properly until they were in bed, although I've had a good 1-2 hours on it now (it's 9pm here in Australia) and I am very pleased with my purchase. I use a Yamaha C2 in my teaching studio and it's a beautiful instrument, the N1X isn't exactly the same as the C2 (obviously) but the action is pretty close. I think I probably just need to get used to the sound the N1X makes - it is a digital instrument after all. The bass is impressive.

I'm rambling a little! Will post more as the days go on.
Hopefully this image works: [img]https://imgur.com/a/hoy06ui[/img]
We are re-arranging photo frames and furniture so the wall above is screaming for a nice big print!

Oh and FYI I actually really dislike cats smile dogs are much better!




Congratulations!

Nice piano in a charming and elegant house.

I am reaching out to the dealer to see if there's any chance to have the piano delivered earlier than the late Jun ETA. fingers crossed
Posted By: JJHLH

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/01/19 03:31 AM

Originally Posted by pianokat123
Wow! I had my N1X delivered today and it truly is amazing! Wonderful sound through the headphones too. In fact I thought the sound was coming from the piano when I first tried them on, the binaural sampling is very impressive. I'd go as far to say the sound is even better than through headphones than the instrument itself. I have the Sennheiser HD6xx headphones (purchased through Massdrop thanks to recommendations from this page).

My kids were too interested in the piano to let me play properly until they were in bed, although I've had a good 1-2 hours on it now (it's 9pm here in Australia) and I am very pleased with my purchase. I use a Yamaha C2 in my teaching studio and it's a beautiful instrument, the N1X isn't exactly the same as the C2 (obviously) but the action is pretty close. I think I probably just need to get used to the sound the N1X makes - it is a digital instrument after all. The bass is impressive.

I'm rambling a little! Will post more as the days go on.
Hopefully this image works: [img]https://imgur.com/a/hoy06ui[/img]
We are re-arranging photo frames and furniture so the wall above is screaming for a nice big print!

Oh and FYI I actually really dislike cats smile dogs are much better!



Congratulations on your N1X! It looks beautiful at your place. And great choice with the Sennheiser HD6XX!
Posted By: johnstaf

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/03/19 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by EPW
Beautiful room and nice piano too smile


Yep. The piano and decor look fantastic together.
Posted By: HwyStar

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/06/19 01:03 AM

Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/06/19 01:19 AM

Originally Posted by HwyStar

Nice video! So Cunningham Piano finally got its N1X. My local Yamaha store also just got its N1X too only a few days ago. I will be going in the next few days to try it out.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/06/19 02:11 AM

Are the speakers ‘much more powerful’?
Also, Mr. Chow says that it plays like a concert grand. Can a baby action truly play like a concert grand action?
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/06/19 03:21 AM

Originally Posted by Pete14
Are the speakers ‘much more powerful’?
Also, Mr. Chow says that it plays like a concert grand. Can a baby action truly play like a concert grand action?


My thoughts exactly.

However, I've never played a concert grand piano.

The N1X felt pretty comparable to the Yamaha baby grands that were on the showroom floor where I bought my N1X. I think in his enthusiasm for the instrument Mr. Chow is exaggerating a bit.

Although, maybe to him it does feel like a concert grand. He certainly would know.

God Bless,
David
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/06/19 03:37 AM

Why would the action be much different between a baby grand and a concert grand?

I had the opportunity to play a 9' Steinway when I was out piano shopping. Though it sounded very different to me, it didn't feel much different than other Steinway's I'd played at the store (not Steinway store I should note, it was an independent store that sold them used.)
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/06/19 03:40 AM

BTW, quick update, tech coming out Wednesday afternoon to examine the piano to see if it's a replacement or repair deal at this point. Pretty convinced it's a replacement, but I'm no expert. Will be nice to have a whole piano again. With the fallboard off the speakers don't sound nearly as good. I image a) because sound is coming from somewhere it normally wouldn't and b) I think the fallboard acts as part of the speaker box, so the bass response is quite poor right now.
Posted By: WeakLeftHand

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/06/19 05:15 AM

My question is: who is the Mr. Chow everyone is referring to?
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/06/19 05:20 AM

Originally Posted by Chrispy
BTW, quick update, tech coming out Wednesday afternoon to examine the piano to see if it's a replacement or repair deal at this point. Pretty convinced it's a replacement, but I'm no expert.

Hopefully a replacement will also solve your headphone amp problem.

Originally Posted by Pete14
Are the speakers ‘much more powerful’?
Also, Mr. Chow says that it plays like a concert grand. Can a baby action truly play like a concert grand action?

We know that the Millennium III is the action in the Kawai Novus NV10 and we know what acoustic pianos the NV10 is used in. What is the action in the Yamaha AvantGrand N1X and how do we know that action is only in Yamaha baby grands?

Originally Posted by WeakLeftHand
My question is: who is the Mr. Chow everyone is referring to?

I assumed they are referring to Hugh Sung.
Posted By: navindra

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/06/19 05:26 AM

Originally Posted by HwyStar

Is it just me or does that silly wireless dongle he demos make anyone else feel irrationally mad at Yamaha? What were they thinking? confused

The recorded sound does sound muffled to me as well.
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/06/19 05:50 AM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Originally Posted by WeakLeftHand
My question is: who is the Mr. Chow everyone is referring to?

I assumed they are referring to Hugh Sung.


I saw Pete call him Mr. Chow and I thought that was his name.

Sorry for the confusion.

God Bless,
David
Posted By: Harpuia

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/06/19 05:52 AM

Cunningham uploaded another interesting video at the same time. They compared Yamaha B1/B2/B3 side by side and also the recording of Yamaha silent system. To me, I feel like even Yamaha B1 sounds better than the N1X either with speaker or recording. I can feel the nuance and phrasing under Hugh Sung’s hands. While those small details don’t exist in the digital recording. In the digital video, the melody in the right hand just sounds like different discrete notes with an over bright timbre.
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/06/19 05:59 AM

Originally Posted by navindra

The recorded sound does sound muffled to me as well.


It definitely sounds muffled.

I thought it was strange for him to place the mic so low and behind the piano and then say it's so that we can hear what he is hearing in an acoustic environment.

If he wanted us to hear what he is hearing, shouldn't he have placed the mic closer to where his head is?

God Bless,
David
Posted By: percy64

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/06/19 08:32 AM

Originally Posted by Pete14
Are the speakers ‘much more powerful’?
Also, Mr. Chow says that it plays like a concert grand. Can a baby action truly play like a concert grand action?

Why should a baby action feel much different to a concert grand?

The N1X certainly feels very similar (indistinguishable to me - but I'm no expert) to the 6' Yamaha Grands in the showroom alongside.
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/06/19 09:59 AM

My 2005-vintage CLP240 has an action that closely matches that of the finest concert grand piano.
That's what the sales literature said ... so it must be true. smile

@percy64: You might not be an expert, but your opinion means more than that of the sales literature, or of any salesman.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/06/19 10:10 AM

The most noticeable difference between the N1X’s action and that of a concert grand (besides the fact that the concert one would be regulated carefully by a top gun) would be the pivot length difference. It should be more noticeable towards the ends of the keys but we're already nitpicking here since the pivot length in the N1X is good enough. I even tested the shortest pivot keyboard in the world’s history of keyboard instruments, that of the new Casio pianos and while it’s close to impossible to push the keys towards the end of the keys, I didn’t find that apparent in my regular playing. But my fingers aren’t exactly Rachmaninov-long smile
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/06/19 10:54 AM

I just noticed Hughs Hung at the beginning of the video; as a matter of fact, I watched other videos from him, and his name is always displayed at the beginning.
I apologize for the confusion, but I genuinely thought this was Mr. Chow. He’s a multifaceted man, Mr. Chow, so I just assumed he also sold pianos.

For the record, Mr. Chow is also a doctor.
Posted By: johnstaf

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/07/19 02:29 AM

Originally Posted by percy64
Originally Posted by Pete14
Are the speakers ‘much more powerful’?
Also, Mr. Chow says that it plays like a concert grand. Can a baby action truly play like a concert grand action?

Why should a baby action feel much different to a concert grand?

The N1X certainly feels very similar (indistinguishable to me - but I'm no expert) to the 6' Yamaha Grands in the showroom alongside.


Apart from the action geometry mentioned by CyberGene, a Yamaha concert grand will be prepped by a very fine technician. That level of attention to detail isn't really feasible given the price of the N1X. Having said all that, a large part of the regulation wouldn't apply to an N1X.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/07/19 02:51 AM

Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by percy64
Why should a baby action feel much different to a concert grand?

The N1X certainly feels very similar (indistinguishable to me - but I'm no expert) to the 6' Yamaha Grands in the showroom alongside.
Apart from the action geometry mentioned by CyberGene, a Yamaha concert grand will be prepped by a very fine technician. That level of attention to detail isn't really feasible given the price of the N1X. Having said all that, a large part of the regulation wouldn't apply to an N1X.

This is odd to me. The Millennium III action in the Kawai NV10 is the same as in in 9' Grands such as the Kawai EX Concert Piano. Yet I am reading in this thread the claim that the action of the N1X is only in Yamaha baby grands and not in Yamaha's concert grands. Does this mean the N1X's action is inferior to the NV10's Millennium III action?
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/07/19 03:04 AM

Not all grand actions are the same. Sizes differ. And maybe size matters.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/07/19 03:06 AM

I don't think you can draw a conclusion like that between two makers. Though Kawai users the same base action, they make significant adjustments and use custom/specialised parts in the action on the EX series grands, including specialized hammer felts.

Yamaha otoh doesn't say quite as much about how their actions may differ between models, at least from what I can find online. But almost certainly they use similar specialized materials and treatments in their flagship grands.
Posted By: johnstaf

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/07/19 03:12 AM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by percy64
Why should a baby action feel much different to a concert grand?

The N1X certainly feels very similar (indistinguishable to me - but I'm no expert) to the 6' Yamaha Grands in the showroom alongside.
Apart from the action geometry mentioned by CyberGene, a Yamaha concert grand will be prepped by a very fine technician. That level of attention to detail isn't really feasible given the price of the N1X. Having said all that, a large part of the regulation wouldn't apply to an N1X.

This is odd to me. The Millennium III action in the Kawai NV10 is the same as in in 9' Grands such as the Kawai EX Concert Piano. Yet I am reading in this thread the claim that the action of the N1X is only in Yamaha baby grands and not in Yamaha's concert grands. Does this mean the N1X's action is inferior to the NV10's Millennium III action?


Millenium III is a family of actions. The action in a Kawai baby grand isn't the same as in a concert grand. Leaving out the keystick length, the action has to be different to accommodate different numbers of strings in each section. In a concert grand, for example, you will have fewer wound strings, so the placement of brackets will be different. It's quite common for concert grands to make allowances for heavier hammers. This could be a slightly different action ratio, or simply more lead in the keys. Japanese concert grands are also well known for almost fanatical attention to detail, which is expensive.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/07/19 07:02 AM

Grand piano actions are all the same: keysticks, capstans, whippens, jacks, repetition levers... you know all that. One decides to call that Millenium III. Other decides not to call that Billenial 3.14. Whatever. The action in the NV10 is not the same as in SK-EX. There are longer keysticks on the SK-EX. Putting plastic (or whatever plastic compound it is) parts won’t arguably change how it feels, it will only contribute to eventually better durability and more consistent behavior in varying temperature and humidity. Some of the most expensive grands still use all wooden actions and top class pianists haven’t complained. So, when you replace parts with plastic your marketing department need to make it a big deal and come up with some name. Yamaha introduces plastic repetition lever in the first generation of AvantGrand and then also plastic jacks in the second generation. And not call it anything. Whatever smile
Posted By: ando

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/07/19 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

This is odd to me. The Millennium III action in the Kawai NV10 is the same as in in 9' Grands such as the Kawai EX Concert Piano. Yet I am reading in this thread the claim that the action of the N1X is only in Yamaha baby grands and not in Yamaha's concert grands. Does this mean the N1X's action is inferior to the NV10's Millennium III action?

The fact that you have come to believe that shows what excellent marketing Kawai has done on you with the NV10. The NV 10 action is comparable to a grand piano around the 6ft/180cm length. Using the key sticks from a concert grand would make the NV10 prohibitively expensive and also very awkwardly sized.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/07/19 10:18 AM

Does a tractor-trailer drive better than a Corolla?
I mean, it’s much longer, has more wheels, bigger/stronger brakes, and perhaps at times, precious cargo.
Perhaps it doesn’t, but it will certainly be a different experience to driving a Corolla, so we can’t say that ‘the Corolla drives exactly as a huge tractor-trailer’ because it does not.
So is it not a lie to claim that a baby grand action ‘drives’ exactly as a concert grand action?

Posted By: JoBert

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/07/19 10:43 AM

Replying to Tyrone's question:

When you look at the way how Kawai uses the name "Millennium III action", then you see that this name does not include the key sticks or the hammers (and that usage of the term "action" is common in the acoustic world). While here in the DP world we usually call the whole assembly of moving parts, from keys to moving weights, the "action" (and I think that is where your confusion stems from). The name "Millennium III" refers to the mechanical bits between the key sticks and the hammers (i.e. the wippen, jack, repetition lever and spring, etc.). At least that is what I gather from Kawai's websites. They always talk about the Millennium III action and the keys and the hammers separately.

Of course Kawai's smallest grands have shorter key sticks than their concert grands (and so has the NV10). I don't think Kawai is engaging in any deception there. The smaller/cheaper grands also have different hammers. But the bits in between, those bits that the name Millennium III refers to, seem to be the same throughout their whole line, from NV10 and GL-10 up to the SK-EX. (That is, if we are looking at the mechanism, and the parts involved, for a single key. The whole assembly, for all 88 keys, differs between different pianos - as Johnstaf pointed out - because they have different requirements for the overall layout to fit into the respective piano and to mesh with the other parts of the piano.)

So to attempt an answer for your question:

Kawai has this Millennium III action which, mated to different keysticks and hammers, and in various assembly configurations, they do indeed use in all their current acoustic grand models, from the lowly GL-10 and NV10 up to the SK-EX.
Yamaha does not seem to have such a "named" action that it uses in all of its models. Instead, in addition to the variations in keysticks (and hammers), there also seem to be variations in the core action between Yamaha acoustic grand models. And the AvantGrands may even have their own core action that isn't used in an actual acoustic grand model.

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
The Millennium III action in the Kawai NV10 is the same as in in 9' Grands such as the Kawai EX Concert Piano.
As said above, this claim does not apply to the key sticks (and pivot length), but only to the core action. So from this claim, you should not infer that the pivot length in the NV10 is the same as in an SK-EX concert grand (which it isn't).

But this statement:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Yet I am reading in this thread the claim that the action of the N1X is only in Yamaha baby grands and not in Yamaha's concert grands.
was made specifically with the keysticks (and the pivot length that results from the stick length) in mind. And that part is true. The N1X action has keysticks of a length comparable to a Yamaha baby grand, not a Yamaha concert grand. It also seems to have a core action that is not the same as the core action in a Yamaha concert grand

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Does this mean the N1X's action is inferior to the NV10's Millennium III action?
On paper, maybe (and arguably). Because, yes, the NV10's core action is the same as that of Kawai's concert grand, while that is not true for the N1X. And if we again expand the comparison from the core action to the keysticks, the NV10 has a longer pivot point than the N1X.
But in real life, with regards to what you feel when playing it, I don't think so. It isn't "inferior", it is only "different". And it depends on your personal preference which one you like better.
(If one want's to be absolutely nit-picky, one could say that the Millennium III is arguably less susceptible to humidity fluctuations, as it uses less wooden parts - but again, I doubt that this would make a difference to most owners.)
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/07/19 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by JoBert
Replying to Tyrone's question:

That you JoBert! You've comprehensively answered my question! It now belongs on a FAQ for hybrids!
Posted By: Bro'

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/07/19 11:23 AM

Thank you Jobert for this detailed explanations, much more clear to me!
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/07/19 11:41 AM

Am I sensing some passive-aggression here, Bert? laugh
You’re saying that the core action in the N1X is different to that of their concert grand actions (other than length, etc.). Since the perception is that the concert grand action is the ultimate reference point (whether right or wrong) this implies that not only is the action in the N1X different but also inferior.
Conversely, you state that the core action in the NV10 is identical to the action used in their concert grands (again, other than key lengths, etc..); this implies that it’s better than the ‘unique’ action in the N1X (so good that Yamaha doesn’t use it on any of their grands).
To top it off, the NV10’s action is ‘arguably’ less susceptible to humidity fluctuations, yet we have some reports of hammers flying off their super stable (carbon fibre) cores. wink
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/07/19 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by Pete14
Am I sensing some passive- aggression here, Bert? laugh

Not intentionally, no.

I meant it, when I wrote that this implied "inferiority" exists only on paper, not in reality. And that in reality the two actions are simply different (not inferior/superior) and whichever you like better is up to your personal preference.
Posted By: QuasiUnaFantasia

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/07/19 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by David B
Originally Posted by navindra

The recorded sound does sound muffled to me as well.


It definitely sounds muffled.



This is actually kind of funny/interesting (at least to me): I think the recorded sound in that video is particularly good; I can't think of any digital piano sounding that good in a recording. I was especially impressed by the massiveness of the bass.
Posted By: HwyStar

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/07/19 01:16 PM

Here is a video of two Bosendorfer 225 being played side by side at Cunningham (I like the second one better!). The two mics they are using seem to be boosting the mid-range somewhat. At least to me.

They have not recorded a CFX there at their shop using the same mics. I had asked Rich if he could record the N3X beside the N1X for comparison but they did not. The placement of those two mics on the N1X may have contributed to the muffled sound based upon the placement of the mics on the back. Speakers are much more directional than an acoustic is.

Have a listen:
Posted By: johnstaf

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/07/19 05:46 PM

Apart from the plastic bits, the NV10 action is not the same as the SK-EX. The keysticks are probably the most important difference between it and a concert grand but almost everything else is different as well. Millennium III only refers to the plastic bits. There's no reason to think Yamaha's action is in any inferior to the Kawai, apart from the keystick length. Using a plastic jack or repetition lever doesn't really matter if it works as well. Why would it?

I believe it's dishonest to claim (or give the impression that) hybrids have the same action as a concert grand. It's simply not true.

Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/07/19 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by johnstaf
Apart from the plastic bits, the NV10 action is not the same as the SK-EX. The keysticks are probably the most important difference between it and a concert grand but almost everything else is different as well. Millennium III only refers to the plastic bits. There's no reason to think Yamaha's action is any more different form their concert grand, apart from the keystick length. Using a plastic jack or repetition lever doesn't really matter if it works as well. Why would it?

I believe it's dishonest for Yamaha and Kawai to claim (or give the impression) that their hybrids have the same action as a concert grand. It's simply not true.

I don't think Yamaha make this claim anymore, but they did when the AG came out first.


I feel we're approaching the point of arguing semantics. However, if we exclude the keysticks and hammers (as I also understand as JoBert does that this is common in the definition of an "action" in the acoustic world),

Quote
believe it's dishonest for Yamaha and Kawai to claim (or give the impression) that their hybrids have the same action as a concert grand.


I'd really like to see some evidential backup to this claim, as applies to either Yamaha/Kawai.

Kawai in particular, explicitly states that the EX Concert Grand uses a Millennium III action, as does the SK-EX. If you have proof that they don't, that's at the least a strong false advertising claim, and I would encourage you to make the case more fully.

I've not seem much reference to Yamaha's action used in the CFX, except for vague recollections that it has a "Yamaha balanced action" as opposed to a 3P action like a Renner, but even that doesn't really describe what the differences are with an AG hybrid action....

I wonder if this is something that should be flagged for the Tuner-Technicians Forum? Perhaps they may have a more defined acoustic standard that we're not quite so familiar with in the digital realm?
Posted By: johnstaf

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/07/19 06:48 PM

Kawai refer to THE Millennium III action, but there isn't a single Millennium III action. This leads people to believe that the action is the same in an NV-10 and the SK-EX.

I don't think any technician would ever talk about an action design without taking the keys into account.
Posted By: johnstaf

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/07/19 07:14 PM

P.S. Very shortly after the AG appeared Yamaha started calling it the modified acoustic action, or something like that. They only claim to use real action parts, AFAIK, which is a much more appropriate way to market the piano.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/07/19 08:28 PM

Originally Posted by johnstaf
Kawai refer to THE Millennium III action, but there isn't a single Millennium III action. This leads people to believe that the action is the same in an NV-10 and the SK-EX.


Is that really the case? Genuinely interested in the evidence behind this, is there anything you can link to support it?

Originally Posted by johnstaf
I don't think any technician would ever talk about an action design without taking the keys into account.
Again, is this really the case? Everything I've seen so far in the acoustic (grand) world separates the keysticks from the the action. Many even separate the damper mechanism (the back action) from the core action mechanism.

Does WNG consider the keys a part of their actions? Does Renner? Again, I'm not really versed in what is considered an acoustic action so I'd really like to know if this is the case.
Posted By: johnstaf

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/07/19 10:22 PM

You can't use the action from a small grand in a concert grand. Compare the plate design of the SK2 and the SK-EX. They have a different number of struts and different width, so the hammers would be in the wrong place. I don't know if an SK-EX action would even fit into the action cavity of an SK2.

WNG sell compete "top actions". They also sell back actions (damper actions). They don't call these complete actions.

If you buy a completed assemblies from some big European piano companies, you can buy a top action stack, or a complete action assembly that includes Kluge keys. This doesn't include the back action, but it's not sold as a complete action.

It drives many techs to distraction when some people replace repetitions and hammer shanks with Renner parts and call it a Renner action. My piano has a Schwander action with some Renner parts. It's not a Schwander action anymore, and it's most certainly not a Renner action.

Steinway call their American grand action the Accelerated Action. These are actions that have a specific type of key balance rail design. That's not even part of the top action stack.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/07/19 10:32 PM

Originally Posted by johnstaf
You can't use the action from a small grand in a concert grand. Compare the plate design of the SK2 and the SK-EX. They have a different number of struts and different width, so the hammers would be in the wrong place. I don't know if an SK-EX action would even fit into the action cavity of an SK2.


Does it make for a "different action" when the geometry is individualized for 4 struts versus 5? I honestly don't know. But I've always assumed that the geometry varies for each piano as required, and that doesn't change the nature of the action itself. Perhaps there are significant differences in the stresses depending on where the "breaks" are for the brackets/rails, but if that makes for a completely different action designation, that's news to me!

Would a WNG action not be a WNG if it were separated across 5-6 brackets instead of 4?
Posted By: ando

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/08/19 05:34 AM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by johnstaf
You can't use the action from a small grand in a concert grand. Compare the plate design of the SK2 and the SK-EX. They have a different number of struts and different width, so the hammers would be in the wrong place. I don't know if an SK-EX action would even fit into the action cavity of an SK2.


Does it make for a "different action" when the geometry is individualized for 4 struts versus 5? I honestly don't know. But I've always assumed that the geometry varies for each piano as required, and that doesn't change the nature of the action itself. Perhaps there are significant differences in the stresses depending on where the "breaks" are for the brackets/rails, but if that makes for a completely different action designation, that's news to me!

Would a WNG action not be a WNG if it were separated across 5-6 brackets instead of 4?


I get the point you are making, but I could also propose that Millennium III does not represent an industrial standard like ISO 9001 etc. We have no way of knowing whether they use the same premium felt, capstans, knuckle material etc on a Millennium III on a NV10 as they do on a SK-EX concert grand. I believe we are supposed to remain in the dark about this. It's classic marketing vagueness. The only thing we can be confident of is the actual mechanical substrate being used ie. the Carbon Fibre reinforced ABS plastic, which is essentially all Millennium III means as far as I can tell, given the geometry is completely different for differently sized pianos. I also think it would be naive to exclude the possibility of a large corporation creating different levels of product within the same product designation because large corporations are famous for making an effort to shave dollars and cents off the cost of production.

So, all in all, I'd say this is a zero sum argument between Yamaha and Kawai in terms of these hybrid pianos. They are both using high quality action parts and designs and the actions are actually the most time-proven parts of these hybrid pianos - much more so than any of the electronic stuff.
Posted By: Amy C

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/08/19 12:36 PM

The N1X in Hugh's video is actually mine (I ordered it awhile back, finally came in a few days ago!). It's being delivered this Friday. I got a good long play at it on Friday. A little background - I'm a former professional pianist, been playing and practicing almost exclusively on Steinway/M&H/Bosendorfer grands in nearby churches, because I have no room in my house and a lot of kids so I would need something very compact and with headphones. I tooled around on the N2 a bit ago and while it's not an acoustic grand, the action was comparable to a grand and I was surprised by how great the sound was in headphones. So I bit the bullet and ordered the N1X so I can have something that works in my house with the latest sound engine and comparable action to an acoustic grand.

It's a great instrument, and I'm really happy with it! Practicing on it vs an acoustic Steinway, the feel of the action is spot on and I don't have any worries about the work I do on there carrying over to the acoustic grands when I perform or even just practice. I only had two reservations - one being that the CFX sound is BRIGHT. Like, almost buzzy-bright. We were able to mess with some of the settings in store to mellow it out a bit, but it's still pretty buzzy. I strongly prefer a mellow Mason and Hamelin sound, so it's a bit of getting used to. Second, the length of the keys to the fallboard - particularly the stiffness of the keys towards the fallboard - was a bit different than I am used to. I played through a section of Beethoven that requires me to be at the very top of the keys and it was like doing push-ups - it really required some muscle. I think I'd rather err on more than less resistance, though, so not a deal-breaker.

Obviously, I'm not a digital connoisseur - I really know my way around an acoustic, but the digital thing is new to me - but as someone who needs a faithful action but the ability to plug in headphones and a very compact instrument, this was an easy win.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/08/19 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by Amy C
Obviously, I'm not a digital connoisseur - I really know my way around an acoustic, but the digital thing is new to me - but as someone who needs a faithful action but the ability to plug in headphones and a very compact instrument, this was an easy win.

I'm sure it is night-and-day compared to your old CVP-309GP. smile
Posted By: Amy C

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/08/19 12:49 PM

P.S., if you are in the Philly area and want to try it out, it's at Cunningham in KOP till this Friday, so make haste!
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/08/19 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by Amy C
The N1X in Hugh's video is actually mine (I ordered it awhile back, finally came in a few days ago!). It's being delivered this Friday. I got a good long play at it on Friday. A little background - I'm a former professional pianist, been playing and practicing almost exclusively on Steinway/M&H/Bosendorfer grands in nearby churches, because I have no room in my house and a lot of kids so I would need something very compact and with headphones. I tooled around on the N2 a bit ago and while it's no acoustic, the action was comparable to a grand. So I bit the bullet and ordered the N1X so I can have something that works in my house with the latest sound engine and comparable action to an acoustic grand.

It's a great instrument, and I'm really happy with it! Practicing on it vs an acoustic Steinway, the feel of the action is spot on and I don't have any worries about the work I do on there carrying over to the acoustic grands when I perform or even just practice. I only had two reservations - one being that the CFX sound is BRIGHT. Like, almost buzzy-bright. We were able to mess with some of the settings in store to mellow it out a bit, but it's still pretty buzzy. I strongly prefer a mellow Mason and Hamelin sound, so it's a bit of getting used to. Second, the length of the keys to the fallboard - particularly the stiffness of the keys towards the fallboard - was a bit different than I am used to. I played through a section of Beethoven that requires me to be at the very top of the keys and it was like doing push-ups - it really required some muscle. I think I'd rather err on more than less resistance, though, so not a deal-breaker.

Obviously, I'm not a digital connoisseur - I really know my way around an acoustic, but the digital thing is new to me - but as someone who needs a faithful action but the ability to plug in headphones and a very compact instrument, this was an easy win.

Amy, congrats on your new piano and welcome to the club smile We're still only 5 (including you).

Regarding the bright character of the piano. Was that through speakers or through headphones? Because many people actually find the sound of the CFX through speakers slightly muffled. And there's the Bösendorfer sound which is slightly darker. Through headphones the CFX is brighter but I wouldn't describe it as overly bright sound. It's no brighter than any other CFX sound I've heard on recordings made with real CFX pianos, such as the one used in the International Chopin Piano Competition or any sampled CFX libraries. But it can indeed be brighter than other pianos. Yet, I think someone might have tweaked the brilliance control of the N1X and it's one of the settings that's being preserved even if the piano is switched off. I have tested it only once and it made quite a difference to my ears: the brightest setting was overly bright, almost like a pop piano recording, whereas the darkest setting was too dull. Make sure you reset the piano to factory settings when you get it. That's easy: press and hold the rightmost key (highest C-key) while turning on the piano. You don't need to hold it the entire time, just make sure you're holding it while you are switching the piano. After 10 seconds the screen will show "Clr" and that would ensure the piano is at its factory settings. If you still find it bright, then you can try decreasing the brilliance control:
Quote
To adjust the brightness of the sound, simultaneously hold down [FUNCTION] and press one of the A#1–D2 keys. During the operation, the specified value is shown on the display.

Each of these keys corresponds to a brilliance degree between 1 and 5 and will be shown on the display, 3 being the default one.

As to playing towards the fallboard. As has been previously discussed, the piano action in the N1X is similar to those used in Yamaha baby grands, hence it has shorter pivot points. If you are comparing it to concert grand pianos, there will be difference because they use keyboards with extremely long key pivots. There's another hybrid piano Kawai NV10 which uses a real Kawai action which has slightly longer keys, albeit still not in the range of big concert grands.
Posted By: Amy C

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/08/19 01:30 PM

@cybergene oh my goodness, that is so helpful! The CFX through headphones was when it was really bright, it wasn't quite as bad through the speakers, which at least to my ears didn't sound terribly muffled, though it wasn't wildly resonant either. I'll be sure to mess around with the brilliance setting. "Pop piano" is a good term to use. It would sound great with Billy Joel, but it didn't quite suit the heavy and dark Rachmaninoff I was playing grin

I am really excited, I'm tired of driving 25 minutes every day just to play piano, it'll be so nice to have something decent in my house to practice on, or that I can sit down on while waiting for the pasta to boil and pick at some passages. It's a really, really lovely piano - miles better than any other digital I tried, thats for sure.
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/08/19 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by Amy C
I only had two reservations - one being that the CFX sound is BRIGHT. Like, almost buzzy-bright. We were able to mess with some of the settings in store to mellow it out a bit, but it's still pretty buzzy. I strongly prefer a mellow Mason and Hamelin sound, so it's a bit of getting used to.


Hi Amy,

Congratulations on the purchase. The N1X is a beautiful instrument and I'm sure you'll get a lot of enjoyable and meaningful interaction with it.

Concerning the sound, if you're not able to adjust the touch sensitivity (pg 20 in the manual) or the brilliance (pg 22) to your satisfaction, there is one more thing you can try. The CFX binaural sample is by default activated when you plug the headphones in and select the CFX sample. To the best of my understanding, the binaural sample utilizes two microphones placed up by the head of the player to capture the sound, which results in a brighter tone compared to the non-binaural (multi-channel sample) that is activated when you play through the internal speakers (without headphones plugged in). There might be other factors involved in shaping the CFX binaural sample, I'm not sure, but it definitely is brighter.

Personally, I really love the CFX binaural sample experience. I even bought new headphones in order to get the most enjoyment out of it. It was definitely money well spent.

However, you can turn the binaural sample off even when you have headphones plugged in (pg 15 in the manual). Having the binaural sample turned off with headphones plugged in (to my ears) reduces the brightness of the CFX sound. While it's not preferred by me, you might find it more to your liking based on your previous operational experience. Thanks for sharing and welcome to the N1X experience. I can't wait to hear more about your impressions as you spend more time with the N1X.

God Bless,
David
Posted By: newer player

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/08/19 01:48 PM

Hi Amy - some headphones may sound "brighter" than others. That is another way to "EQ" your piano. You don't need expensive headphones.

Maybe your local music store would make a few recommendations and let you borrow a few headphones (or buy a few with full refund vs. store credit) to try at home.
Posted By: HwyStar

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/08/19 02:05 PM

And Amy; the action may be able to be regulated with a lighter touch by a professional piano tech. I am not sure about that since this is a DP. You guys, who own this piano: did the store's comment on regulation of this piano? If anyone can answer this question it is Rich of Cunningham. I will send a link to this post to him so he can answer us here.

Rich: we need a Yamaha "KJ" here in DP land! As long as we all do not ask too much from you, since you are a salesman of Yamaha DP's, your insights would help here too.

PS: Now we have to say "You People" that own the N1X! Congrats Amy!
Posted By: RobR

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/08/19 02:37 PM

Is $8400 a good price for this? This price is after discount.
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/08/19 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by RobR
Is $8400 a good price for this? This price is after discount.


I paid $8,050.00 out the door for mine.

I provided for my own delivery and setup so there was no additional charges.

God Bless,
David
Posted By: RobR

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/08/19 02:45 PM

Thank you for the answer.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/08/19 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by RobR
Thank you for the answer.

Check the last 3-4 pages of the prices paid thread too for more data points.
Posted By: RobR

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/08/19 03:06 PM

Very useful thread. Thank You.
Posted By: Bro'

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/08/19 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by HwyStar

did the store's comment on regulation of this piano?

The dealer told me that it can be regulated cause it's a real action. Like real pianos, middle keys, due to regular playing, are more solicited so the keyboard can be "digged" after X-time and so it can be regulated.

PS : sorry for my approximate english
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/08/19 03:22 PM

The N-series can be regulated, however they have very specific parameters of regulation that are needed for the sensing system to work. They can't be just regulated to the taste of the player. The "regulation" is rather to bring them back to spec so that the piano works as expected. With that in mind, there's no way for a regular piano technician to just come and make the keys lighter for you smile Although I'd argue that making keys lighter isn't something that's at all possible through only a regulation. Let alone changing the feel towards the fallboard which is a physical limitation of the leverage (pivot point) rather than anything related to the regulation.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/08/19 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Although I'd argue that making keys lighter isn't something that's at all possible through only a regulation. Let alone changing the feel towards the fallboard which is a physical limitation of the leverage (pivot point) rather than anything related to the regulation.

Couldn't counterweights be added to or removed from the keys?
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/08/19 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Couldn't counterweights be added to or removed from the keys?

If you wanted to potentially sacrifice repetition speed, then yes you can add more counterweights. But have you seen the number of counterweights in an Avant Grand compared to an acoustic grand key stick? There's already so much, It's kind of crazy. This is one of the main things that makes me wonder what the difference is between an Avant Grand action and one of Yamaha's acoustic baby grands.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/08/19 03:45 PM

Maybe you can remove weights from the keysticks to make them lighter (they need to be removed in pairs though, because otherwise you will also change the static weight of the keys which needs to be e.g. 50g. By adding them in pairs you make the key having a higher inertia while still retaining the static weight). However it's not sure if Yamaha added them in pairs to start with. Maybe they calculated their action in such a way that the static weight is achieved through a careful balance of the added weights vs the action parts and the hammer. Most of these things are usually calculated by the manufacturer and it's not supposed for technicians to do them although I known they sometime do them. But it isn't considered a standard manipulation to add/remove weights to the keys. And especially for a hybrid instrument that relies on a fine balance between physical motion and electronic timing measurement which should be translated into predefined range of values. Maybe I am wrong.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/08/19 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Maybe you can remove weights from the keysticks to make them lighter (they need to be removed in pairs though, because otherwise you will also change the static weight of the keys which needs to be e.g. 50g. By adding them in pairs you make the key having a higher inertia while still retaining the static weight). However it's not sure if Yamaha added them in pairs to start with. Maybe they calculated their action in such a way that the static weight is achieved through a careful balance of the added weights vs the action parts and the hammer. Most of these things are usually calculated by the manufacturer and it's not supposed for technicians to do them although I known they sometime do them. But it isn't considered a standard manipulation to add/remove weights to the keys. And especially for a hybrid instrument that relies on a fine balance between physical motion and electronic timing measurement which should be translated into predefined range of values. Maybe I am wrong.

There was an interesting discussion on adding or removing counterweights on real acoustic pianos on the technicians forum that I was looking at a little while back. Not sure if this applies to hybrids though.
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/08/19 04:42 PM

Question on repetition, and this is honestly more of an action question I think. Occasionally while playing a fast repeated note I do "something" and when I hit the key the second time it feels different, like it's sort of stuck and the piano also doesn't play the note. I can't make this happen consistently, but I'm trying to hone in on what I do when it does happen. Perhaps it's striking the key a bit off center? It happens mostly when actually playing my current piece (the second movement of Beethoven's Op 49 No 2, the dotted 8th followed by a 16th) rather than trying to make it happen by testing. I've kind of had it happen on my teachers piano though it feels different, however it also makes no sound.

I'm guessing it's some sort of deficiency of my technique but I'd love to understand the mechanics of what's going on.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/08/19 05:11 PM

Originally Posted by Chrispy
Question on repetition, and this is honestly more of an action question I think. Occasionally while playing a fast repeated note I do "something" and when I hit the key the second time it feels different, like it's sort of stuck and the piano also doesn't play the note. I can't make this happen consistently, but I'm trying to hone in on what I do when it does happen. Perhaps it's striking the key a bit off center? It happens mostly when actually playing my current piece (the second movement of Beethoven's Op 49 No 2, the dotted 8th followed by a 16th) rather than trying to make it happen by testing. I've kind of had it happen on my teachers piano though it feels different, however it also makes no sound.

I'm guessing it's some sort of deficiency of my technique but I'd love to understand the mechanics of what's going on.

This happens to me as well when replaying a key and when the key has been released only slightly from the bottom position. The actual reason is that on grand pianos although you can replay the key without releasing it fully (owing to the double repetition lever), there's still some distance needed by the key to travel back before the double repetition lever does its job. This is aggravated if the repetition needs to be fast because the speed with which the key will bounce back on its own is limited and it needs some time.

I've so far found two solutions to this problem:

1. I try to release the key slightly more before replaying it. This is possible if the speed of the repetition isn't very fast. However if the speed is fast, you simply don't have time to release key too high before replaying it. Which is why I found out a much better solution:

2. This is a variant of the so called "playing off the jack". Let me first start with a fact you might not know: you can play a key and produce a note without actually pressing the key fully to the bottom. You can remove your finger before the key has hit the bottom and the hammer would still have the inertia to hit the "string" with the same velocity. This is usually difficult to master when you need to play lines, etc., however in the specific case of just playing a quick double note (single repetition), you can easily learn a movement where you strike the key with a single downward motion but stopping temporarily at a middle point. I need to draw a picture though, not sure if you get it. It needs a bit of practicing but is very effective.
Posted By: Rich Galassini

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/08/19 05:11 PM

Originally Posted by Chrispy
Question on repetition, and this is honestly more of an action question I think. Occasionally while playing a fast repeated note I do "something" and when I hit the key the second time it feels different, like it's sort of stuck and the piano also doesn't play the note. I can't make this happen consistently, but I'm trying to hone in on what I do when it does happen. Perhaps it's striking the key a bit off center? It happens mostly when actually playing my current piece (the second movement of Beethoven's Op 49 No 2, the dotted 8th followed by a 16th) rather than trying to make it happen by testing. I've kind of had it happen on my teachers piano though it feels different, however it also makes no sound.

I'm guessing it's some sort of deficiency of my technique but I'd love to understand the mechanics of what's going on.


I think this might be helpful, Chrispy. Check out this animated grand piano action VIRTUAL ACTION

Look on the shank towards the right and you will see what called a "knuckle" tht is generally made of leather. The L shaped piece right underneath it is called the "jack". The jack is what actually makes the hammer move towards the string. After the hammer builds momentum it flies free away from the jack allowing it to strike the string and get away from the string quickly, allowing the string to vibrate freely. At the same time the jack recovers so we can immediately repeat the note if necessary.

If the jack is not allowed to recover (not lifting our fingers enough to allow for the recovery, for instance) the mechanical action will not reset. This will happen on any piano with a full action.
Posted By: navindra

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/08/19 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by Amy C
P.S., if you are in the Philly area and want to try it out, it's at Cunningham in KOP till this Friday, so make haste!


Congratulations, but I hope you’re also getting compensated for all these people using your piano!
Posted By: JJHLH

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/08/19 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by Amy C
The N1X in Hugh's video is actually mine (I ordered it awhile back, finally came in a few days ago!). It's being delivered this Friday.


Hi Amy! Congratulation on getting the N1X. How exciting! Friday is almost here. You are going to have a great weekend for sure. I can’t wait to try one myself as it has gotten glowing reviews. It seems like a wonderful instrument.
Posted By: daz100

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/08/19 07:07 PM

A few years ago my partner complained how loud the action was on my Roland when using headphones and i practice 90% of the time with headphones on. So I had to sell my Roland and buy a Kawai VPC1 ,which solved the noisy action problem. Ive been using my VPC1 now 5 years and want to upgrade to a hybrid. So ive started looking so far I tried the Yamaha NU1x and just after 5 mins play the action was unbearably loud so ive crossed it off my list. Next I tried the Kawai NV10 and thought the action wasn't as loud as my old Roland but the pedal action seemed very loud. I haven't tried the Yamaha N1X yet so my question here is just how loud is the action on the keys and pedals in comparison to the Kawai NV10 and the newer Rolands like the LX708.
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/08/19 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by Rich Galassini
Check out this animated grand piano action VIRTUAL ACTION


Great link thanks! I really wish they had a slider/scrubber so you could slow it down and go back and forth smile
Posted By: Rich Galassini

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/08/19 07:36 PM

Originally Posted by daz100
A few years ago my partner complained how loud the action was on my Roland when using headphones and i practice 90% of the time with headphones on. So I had to sell my Roland and buy a Kawai VPC1 ,which solved the noisy action problem. Ive been using my VPC1 now 5 years and want to upgrade to a hybrid. So ive started looking so far I tried the Yamaha NU1x and just after 5 mins play the action was unbearably loud so ive crossed it off my list. Next I tried the Kawai NV10 and thought the action wasn't as loud as my old Roland but the pedal action seemed very loud. I haven't tried the Yamaha N1X yet so my question here is just how loud is the action on the keys and pedals in comparison to the Kawai NV10 and the newer Rolands like the LX708.


Hi daz,

I just went to an NU1x and then played the N1x a few feet away (Hi Amy smile ). Both instruments were turned off so I was paying attention only to how audible the action was. There is a marked difference between the two. The NU1x is louder. I believe it is because of the placement of the rail that stops the hammer. The rail is just behind the front board and it is in my face. Also, the cabinet is smaller and less insulated than the NU1x. Having said that, I have a large number of clients who play the NU1x with headphones and have no complaints at all.

Full disclosure - I dropped Roland to pick up Yamaha in 2016 and the Clavinova actions then were noticeably quieter than the LX-15 at the time. I have only played the latest Rolands at NAMM and we are still very happy with our choice. Frankly though, I was not listening to this detail in the action. I was concerned with the tone and touch only.

My 2 cents,
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/08/19 08:30 PM

I haven’t compared them side by side but I had a NU1X for a month and now the N1X. They are all VERY noisy. My wife isn’t very happy smile
Posted By: iLogic

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/08/19 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
I haven’t compared them side by side but I had a NU1X for a month and now the N1X. They are all VERY noisy. My wife isn’t very happy smile


What made you sell/return the nuix?
Posted By: spanishbuddha

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/08/19 08:49 PM

Someone on here had the action on their AG regulated.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/08/19 09:06 PM

Originally Posted by iLogic
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I haven’t compared them side by side but I had a NU1X for a month and now the N1X. They are all VERY noisy. My wife isn’t very happy smile


What made you sell/return the nuix?

Well, I knew about the infamous loud note issue before purchasing the piano and managed to reproduce it consistently (I even made a YouTube video to demonstrate that) and although still frustrated by it, I could live with it by adjusting my technique and somehow anticipating it. But then I also discovered that two keys in the middle of the keyboard were producing a slightly louder velocities than the neighboring keys. Yamaha sent me instructions on how to calibrate the sensors but it didn’t seem to help. At that point it was already too much for me, I was still in my grace period and N1X just became available for ordering and so I decided to upgrade. Ultimately both are good but I have better and consistent control on the N1X with no irregularities and no need to overcome deficiencies. It’s almost twice the price of NU1X but it’s totally worth it IMO.
Posted By: HwyStar

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/08/19 09:15 PM

That’s a great link to the Renner site, Rich! Thanks for sharing!
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/08/19 09:20 PM

Originally Posted by spanishbuddha
Someone on here had the action on their AG regulated.

I guess easing up on parts to lower friction is OK. However I’m not sure changing escapement distances and stuff is a very good idea especially if performed by just a piano technician who uses his experience with acoustic pianos rather than knowledge about how AvantGrand pianos work. Maybe he won’t do harm but who knows? For instance, the escapement point on the AvantGrand pianos is 1mm more (hammer travel after escapement to string) than standard pianos. The idea is to be able to position the upper sensor within region where the scanning circuitry would manage to read the value. Shortening that distance might eventually lead to missed fortissimos or missed repetitions or who knows what. I wouldn’t personally allow non-Yamaha trained technician experiment with my AG. Or maybe I’m just to OCD-ed smile
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/09/19 12:27 AM

Well, tech was here. As suspected I'll need the piano replaced. Will be making arrangements with the store tomorrow. The best the tech could figure is perhaps the bottom board was bad and expanded pushing out the cheek. I'm sure Yamaha will be interested in getting it back and figuring out what was wrong. Oddly enough, the tech said though he'd never seen this before, he's going next week to look at an N3X where the fallboard came off.

As a bonus, I got to take some photos while he had the top off trying to see if there was any way to get the cheek pulled in. Wasn't exactly sure what to take pictures of so it's kind of random, but maybe the first pictures of the inside of an N1X in the wild?

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Posted By: navindra

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/09/19 07:25 AM

Glad you're getting it replaced. Techs are famous for saying they've "never seen this issue before". Keep us updated on how things go with Classic Pianos.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/09/19 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by Chrispy
Well, tech was here. As suspected I'll need the piano replaced. Will be making arrangements with the store tomorrow. The best the tech could figure is perhaps the bottom board was bad and expanded pushing out the cheek. I'm sure Yamaha will be interested in getting it back and figuring out what was wrong. Oddly enough, the tech said though he'd never seen this before, he's going next week to look at an N3X where the fallboard came off.

As a bonus, I got to take some photos while he had the top off trying to see if there was any way to get the cheek pulled in. Wasn't exactly sure what to take pictures of so it's kind of random, but maybe the first pictures of the inside of an N1X in the wild?

Nice pics! Do let us know if the replacement piano has the same issue with your set of headphones where the headphone amp simply doesn't have enough gain for your headphones.
Posted By: KevinM

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/09/19 11:32 AM

I know the N1X etc. are expensive and certainly beyond a future budget of mine for the next couple of years. But looking at those photos it is clear there is so much part of their construction that is still fiddly time consuming stuff done by hand. I'm almost beginning to think they are cheap for what they are.

Clearly these things are still not being sold in large enough numbers to invest in more automated manufacturing, including the design of the pianos to be more easily built by automated manufacturing.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/09/19 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by KevinM
I know the N1X etc. are expensive and certainly beyond a future budget of mine for the next couple of years. But looking at those photos it is clear there is so much part of their construction that is still fiddly time consuming stuff done by hand. I'm almost beginning to think they are cheap for what they are.

Clearly these things are still not being sold in large enough numbers to invest in more automated manufacturing, including the design of the pianos to be more easily built by automated manufacturing.

Ironic as for acoustical piano, more handcraft and less automated manufacturing is considered good smile I'm waiting for the day when I'll be able to print a piano out of my 3D printer smile
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/09/19 12:55 PM

I’m beginning to think that they are expensive for what they are. There’s nothing but an entry-level action and some circuit boards/cables in there, yet they cost as much as an acoustic.
How much do you think it costs to build/implement the iron plate, soundboard, strings, pins, felt hammers, real wood cabinet, etc..? None of this is present in a hybrid. All I see is an action, lots of empty space and some cables. Of course that’s fine for the intended goal, by it sure does not translate well into the pricing.
Don’t get me wrong, I like these hybrids, but I don’t agree with the prices. A forum member was actually quoted more for an N3X than a Yamaha acoustic baby grand (I don’t remember the model). Still, my guess is that -quirks and all- the acoustic would sweep the floor with the N3X; incidentally, the most grossly over-priced hybrid ever.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/09/19 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14
How much do you think it costs to build/implement the iron plate, soundboard, strings, pins, felt hammers, real wood cabinet, etc..? None of this is present in a hybrid. All I see is an action, lots of empty space and some cables. Of course that’s fine for the intended goal, by it sure does not translate well into the pricing.

Could you be underestimating the price of a piano action, itself? For example, the NV10 using a Millennium III action. If I had a real Kawai acoustical grand and needed to replace its Millennium III action, how much would buying the replacement action alone cost, not including labor? I suspect that price is well into 4 figures.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/09/19 01:10 PM

I’m speculating, but I don’t believe that the Millennium in the NV10 is identical to the one used in the Shigeru concert grand as is implied. The action in the NV10 might share a similar design and plastic -carbon fiber- parts, but my gut tells me that it does not get the kind of love from expert technicians that the Shigeru action gets. At best it’s a ‘Chinese’ replica of the real thing. wink
Once again, I’m speculating.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/09/19 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14
At best it’s a ‘Chinese’ replica of the real thing. wink
Once again, I’m speculating.

Well, Kawai would be engaged in false advertising and in violation of export/trade laws then, as it says "Kawai Action--Made in Japan" right on the action rail!

Kawai James for Prison 2020!!
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/09/19 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14
I’m speculating, but I don’t believe that the Millennium in the NV10 is identical to the one used in the Shigeru concert grand as is implied. The action in the NV10 might share a similar design and plastic -carbon fiber- parts, but my gut tells me that it does not get the kind of love from expert technicians that the Shigeru action gets. At best it’s a ‘Chinese’ replica of the real thing. wink
Once again, I’m speculating.

The Shigeru is advertised as completely handbuilt. I assumed that included the piano action. Does it actually use a Millennium III action?
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/09/19 01:23 PM

TBH, I also thought (and still think) current hybrids are overpriced which was why I started my DIY hybrid in the first place. On the other hand these are niche instruments.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/09/19 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by Pete14
At best it’s a ‘Chinese’ replica of the real thing. wink
Once again, I’m speculating.

Well, Kawai would be engaged in false advertising and in violation of export/trade laws then, as it says "Kawai Action--Made in Japan" right on the action rail!

Kawai James for Prison 2020!!


Let’s start proceedings to have James impeached! laugh
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/09/19 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

The Shigeru is advertised as completely handbuilt. I assumed that included the piano action. Does it actually use a Millennium III action?


C'mon Tyrone, your better than that! You can go to Kawai Japan's page for the SK pianos and look at the specs here: http://www.kawai-global.com/product/c/grandpianos/shigeru-kawai/

All of them, including the SK-EX, specify the action is the Millennium III. What that means we can split hairs about, but the claim is right here. Why would Kawai "downplay" their most prestigious instrument?

Originally Posted by CyberGene
TBH, I also thought (and still think) current hybrids are overpriced which was why I started my DIY hybrid in the first place. On the other hand these are niche instruments.


CyberGene, didn't you try to source a new Chinese grand action for your project? How much were they asking (with volume discount)?
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/09/19 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
CyberGene, didn't you try to source a new Chinese grand action for your project? How much were they asking (with volume discount)?

Well, they never quoted me. The said I should order at least 50 for us to start talks smile Which I may eventually do some day... Anyway, I've seen brand new Chinese grands costing as low as $3000. They are probably cr*p but in any case that's the price for entire grand pianos with a cabinet, action, soundboard, iron frame, strings... Even if the action might not be very good it's still an action, right. So I would assume an action alone won't cost more than $1500. And that's reasonable after all. These are just some wooden parts, cut by CNC. Even if all that needs to be manually assembled, it would still not take more than a few man-hours total IMO.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/09/19 02:47 PM

$1500 for a "cr*p action" in volume isn't a bad estimate, IMO. In any case, it supports the proposition that we're well into the 4-figure arena, and previously quoted figures of $2-4k for a...non-cr*p(?) action aren't out of line at all. I'm sure some actions go higher. As to whether that speaks to an inflated pricing for hybrids I simply cannot say.

FWIW, having seen grand actions at work, I think you may be underestimating the manual labor needed to supplement all those mass-CNC'd parts with glue, felts and leather to the point where all keys operate as they should, even excluding the bespoke regulation inherent in premiere concert grands.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/09/19 02:59 PM

So, if CG can get an action for about $1,500 (for the sake of argument), that means that it probably costs about half that for the manufacturer to build it (they have to make a profit, after all).
That leaves us at about $750.00 for the manufacturing costs of the NV10 action; add some speakers ($400), and a mock cabinet (500), and we end up at $11,000 street price....... wait, something went wrong with my calculations. We need someone with top-notch math skills to crack this open.
Are hybrids more than the sum of their parts, or are they more than the sum of $750+400+500?

P.S.

This applies to the AvantGrand as well.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/09/19 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14
wait, something went wrong with my calculations. We need someone with top-notch math skills to crack this open.

I suspect this is the missing math fact to make these numbers balance.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/09/19 03:04 PM

So, if we take the numbers at face value, what would this mean for DPs with non-grand actions?
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/09/19 03:16 PM

For ‘regular’ DP’s the formula is $2.99+$1.59+$2.15, and somehow Roland wants $7,000 for the LX-708. cool
Posted By: QuasiUnaFantasia

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/09/19 04:17 PM

The manufacturing cost for a hybrid is only really relevant, if the price obtainable by the producer on the retail market is lower than that (in which case production and sales would come to an end). The manufacturers sell the hybrids at the price, which they believe will maximise their income after subtraction of costs. If people are willing to shell out a high price for a hybrid, the manufacturers will be happy to sell at that high price. If market interest drops off, the selling price will also drop off (unless the manufacturers are really dumb).

By the way, why would anyone assume that the hybrids are based on top-of-the-range acoustic grands? Surely they are based on bottom-of-the-barrel acoustic grands (made in Indonesia, just as the digital pianos are).

Incidentally, for price comparisons involving the N-3X, Thomann sells this for 17666 EUR, whilst they sell the entry level acoustic grands Kawai GL10 for 9699 EUR and Yamaha GB1 for 9799 EUR. In other words, you can get both of those two grands together for about 10% more than the N-3X costs. Go figure ...
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/09/19 04:21 PM

OTOH, the N1X is manufactured in Indonesia. Since it requires some skills with acoustic piano manufacturing I'm wondering whether it's a factory that also makes some of their acoustic pianos and which ones. Certainly not their flagship pianos which are probably hand made in Japan.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/09/19 04:24 PM

Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
Incidentally, for price comparisons involving the N-3X, Thomann sells this for 17666 EUR, whilst they sell the entry level acoustic grands Kawai GL10 for 9699 EUR and Yamaha GB1 for 9799 EUR. In other words, you can get both of those two grands together for about 10% more than the N-3X costs. Go figure ...

If I was given this selection at this point in time with a budget of 20000, I would take the N3X as neither of the other two have a silent mode. Even adding a silent mode to one of the GL10 and GB1 might not sway me, as I'd want to know how good of a silent mode it was. 95% of my piano playing is with headphones.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/09/19 04:27 PM

Quasi, I don’t believe the hard-core Avant-techies will take kindly to your comparing their hybrids to a bottom-of-the-barrel.... and why are you picking on Indonesia when there’s always China?
Posted By: Hecarim

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/09/19 04:37 PM

Right right, let me do the real math here:

Scenario one: N1X
- Cost of the piano: 6k
- Time invested: the 5 minutes from my office to the Yamaha London store + the time to try the piano and find the courage to part with a lot of cash for something I plug in the same socket as my toaster
- Hate level of neighbors: non-existent

Scenario two: GL10
- Cost of the piano: 9k (+3k from N1X, but for a real grand, a more than fair difference)
- Cost of the new house I need to buy to make it fit: 600k
- Time invested: the eons that'll take me to find a house I like and that isn't a flat or a terraced + the daily increase in commute time to Central London (if I want to fit a grand I need a bigger house. If I move closer to London, I'll need to move to a crappier area to afford that space with 600k; to keep standards, I'd need to move further out, essentially giving myself less time to play)
- Hate level of neighbors: significant
- Total effort required: full nervous breakdown

All of a sudden, an Indonesia-made, overpriced N1X becomes the best grand action I can afford both in terms of space and $$$. The only real alternative is going for a K300 Aures.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/09/19 04:42 PM

When you say ‘crappier’ area are you referring to the people that live in that area or the infrastructure embedded within that area? Surely you don’t believe that poor people are ‘crappy’? wink

P.S.

..and why are you picking on Indonesia?
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/09/19 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by Hecarim
Scenario two: GL10
...
- [censored]-off level of neighbors: significant
...The only real alternative is going for a K300 Aures.

I'd argue that the K300 Aures is not a useful alternative in your use-case. That is, you could certainly place one in your current home, just like I could in mine, but in your use-case, the most important features of the K300 Aures (strings) vs N1X, you wouldn't even be using much of, in order to maintain the peace with your neighbors.
Posted By: Hecarim

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/09/19 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

I'd argue that the K300 Aures is not a useful alternative in your use-case. That is, you could certainly place one in your current home, just like I could in mine, but in your use-case, the most important features of the K300 Aures (strings) vs N1X, you wouldn't even be using much of, in order to maintain the peace with your neighbors.


They won't kill me if I play like 30 mins after dinner or in a weekend afternoon - and only after I learned a piece to decent standards. I would make use of the acoustic sound, though likely for 10% of the time only. Which probably defeats the point of an acoustic.

For me it's more about the action anyway and I haven't tried the Aures yet.

Posted By: QuasiUnaFantasia

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/09/19 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14
Quasi, I don’t believe the hard-core Avant-techies will take kindly to your comparing their hybrids to a bottom-of-the-barrel.... and why are you picking on Indonesia when there’s always China?


I have no doubt you're right about that; I must also admit some mischievousness with my comment. smile

The reason for bringing in Indonesia is that the entry level acoustic grands are made there, and both Kawai and Yamaha manufacture dp's there.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/09/19 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
OTOH, the N1X is manufactured in Indonesia.

Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
Originally Posted by Pete14
and why are you picking on Indonesia when there’s always China?
The reason for bringing in Indonesia is that the entry level acoustic grands are made there, and both Kawai and Yamaha manufacture dp's there.

Well, as CyberGene points out, it seems Indonesia is already a place for hybrid manufacturing.
Posted By: TomLC

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/09/19 09:19 PM

I might have missed some of this thread as I am a little anxious to reply to some the misinformation proffered here.
I was at a local Kawai dealer this morning. Besides Kawai they carry several brands. Including top European brands. I specifically wanted to try the G10 and GL20. It is obvious that the action in the NV10 is, as advertised, the same used in the GL30, and the GX1. In other words, equivalent to a 5' 5" grand piano. The feel of the GL10 is not even close due to shorter key pivot points. I discussed this in length with the salesman. We played a SK-2 for comparison. Now of course I am not suggesting the NV10 action is as well regulated as an SK or even a GX. However, I am told it is the same action except the hammers are replaced by the sensor "hammers".

OT: The best baby grand in the shop (IMO) was a 5'5" Cunningham. It is build in Indonesia, then delivered to Cunningham PA for final preparation. Exceptionally beautiful cabinet, touch and sound was better than Estonia, Kawai, and used S&S's.
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/09/19 10:29 PM

Originally Posted by TomLC
I might have missed some of this thread as I am a little anxious to reply to some the misinformation proffered here.
I was at a local Kawai dealer this morning. Besides Kawai they carry several brands. Including top European brands. I specifically wanted to try the G10 and GL20. It is obvious that the action in the NV10 is, as advertised, the same used in the GL30, and the GX1. In other words, equivalent to a 5' 5" grand piano. The feel of the GL10 is not even close due to shorter key pivot points. I discussed this in length with the salesman. We played a SK-2 for comparison. Now of course I am not suggesting the NV10 action is as well regulated as an SK or even a GX. However, I am told it is the same action except the hammers are replaced by the sensor "hammers".


1. You say that Kawai advertises that the NV10 uses the same action as the GL30 and GX1. The action on the GX1 on the GL30 must therefore GL30 be the same. Is this true?

2. You say that the "feel of the GL10 is not even close due to shorter key pivot points". The Kawai Global web page on the GL emphasizes the differences between the GL40/50 and GL10/20/30. It also emphasizes the extended keys on the GX series. However, Kawai says nothing key length differences across the GL range. Is it true that the GL10 has shorter pivot points?

3. The Kawai Global page says this: "Based on the GX series’ proven action design, Millennium III Hybrid retains the composite parts and extended key sticks of its acoustic cousin, while replacing the traditional felt hammers with individually-weighted ABS equivalents." If we read this statement literally (as it seems you are) then we must assume that the "GX series action" is exactly the same across the whole range, from the 166cm GX-1 to the 229cm GX-7.

So, can you please sustain what you have said? Or should I read your comments as just another piece of "misinformation"?
Posted By: TomLC

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/09/19 11:19 PM

1: Yes, they are both 5’5” long.
2: The longer the piano, the longer the key-sticks is my understanding. The GX1 and the GL30 have the same length key-sticks. All of the GL, GX, SK, and the NV10 have “extended key sticks. I suppose compared to what they previously used.
3: No that is not what I thought I said. The longer the piano the longer the key-sticks and thus the pivot point.
Go try a GL10 and then the GL30. Compare with the NV10. The difference is noticeable. What I was referring to is that the actions are all made in Japan. However, not to infer that the plants in Indonesia produce an inferior product.

I have always thought I would prefer the GL10 to the NV10. YMMV. For me, I prefer the NV10. Made in Indonesia or Japan.
Posted By: NormB

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/10/19 12:02 AM

Continuing the price/value discussion, I am saddened that both Yamaha and Kawai digital offering are almost exclusively made of MDF rather than wood. I suppose one could use a lot of MDF in acoustic grands, but no one does, to my knowledge.
Posted By: TomLC

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/10/19 12:06 AM

The Kawai CS11 is in an actual (modified) K2 cabinet. K2 is the predecessor to the current K200 44" upright.
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/10/19 04:04 AM

I've been wanting to look inside of this since I bought it. I like to tinker, build guns, change my own oil, etc. I feel pretty comfortable with tools and basic mechanics. Chrispy's pictures inspired me to open mine up.

The disassembly is easy. 4 screws and the top comes right off. Don't forget to disconnect the speakers from the mainboard.

Top board and speaker assembly.

[Linked Image]

Here she is naked. The fabric that is draped over the keys is fastened with an adhesive, so I left it on.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Plastic repetition lever.

[Linked Image]

Plastic jack.

[Linked Image]

Hammers from treble side.

[Linked Image]

Bass hammers.

[Linked Image]

I noticed that a piano product I purchased for cleaning had carnauba wax in it. Therefore, I decided to try putting some Meguiars wax on the piano. I already have the wax since I routinely detail my own cars.

One thing I learned is that a the clear coat on a car is more porous than the high polish finish on the N1X. Therefore, the micro layer of wax that is left on lays more on the surface compared to a car. It did coverup some of the fine surface blemishes.

It came out pretty good. It has a very "wet" look to it now and is super slick to the touch. The dust seems to glide off easier as well.

Assembled and waxed.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

My curiosity is now satisfied. Back to practicing. There are four songs in the current lesson I'm working on (Lesson 39 Duane Shinn) and it's going to take some time finish.

God Bless,
David

P.S. I did measure the pivot length and the white keys measured 9" and the black keys were 7.5"





Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/10/19 05:58 AM

Nice pics, David! smile And finally confirmed the jacks are indeed plastic.
Posted By: oneilt130

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/10/19 10:10 AM

Nice tip on the Meguiars wax. My NU1X is getting a lot of smudges on it. I may try that out this weekend. Did you do anything before you applied the wax?

Edited to add nice pics!
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/10/19 10:26 AM

I was under the impression that the back grills (left/right) were covering speakers, but looking at the nekid pictures it seems like these are just escapement ports.
My question is where are the other (2) speakers? I know there’s the backfiring subwoofer and obviously the three top speakers for a total of four, but I can’t see the other two; are these hidden tweeters?
Posted By: HwyStar

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/10/19 10:28 AM

Excellent post, David! Thanks for sharing the pictures. And, the wax idea. That will come in handy to know for the future.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/10/19 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by Pete14
I was under the impression that the back grills (left/right) were covering speakers, but looking at the nekid pictures it seems like these are just escapement ports.
My question is where are the other (2) speakers? I know there’s the backfiring subwoofer and obviously the three top speakers for a total of four, but I can’t see the other two; are these hidden tweeters?

I think I might have answered that to you previously in this thread wink There are three top speakers and in the bottom body (the speaker cabinet) there's one central rear-facing speaker, one right front facing speaker and a floor facing subwoofer in the left.

P.S. Edited it, there's no left front speaker.
Posted By: percy64

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/10/19 11:26 AM

Talking of rear facing subwoofers what is the experience of the placement of the N1X especially in reference to the rear wall?

I see the manual says no closer than 15cm but that could make positioning tricky in a small room - not to mention it looking a little odd.

I guess it won't make much difference if listening through headphones smile
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/10/19 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by percy64
Talking of rear facing subwoofers

No, it's floor facing, in the left. There's only one central rear-facing speaker.
Posted By: percy64

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/10/19 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by CyberGene

No, it's floor facing, in the left. There's only one central rear-facing speaker.

So where is the last speaker? The specs say 2 x 13cm and 1x16cm (plus the 3 mounted on the top)

I guess it is all to do with the "spacial acoustic" modelling
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/10/19 11:57 AM

I think the subwoofer is the 16cm one.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/10/19 12:44 PM

Thanks, CyberGene. I was confused about the rear-facing speaker. For some reason I took it to be the subwoofer. I had no idea that the subwoofer was a separate (down-facing) speaker, nor was I aware of the one front-facing right speaker.
I mistakenly thought: three top speakers + rear-facing subwoofer, and two (right/left) back rear-facing speakers. I thought that those ‘grills’ on the back were for the ‘back’ speakers.
Perhaps what seems to me like an odd speaker placement is due to the multi-channel system.
You see, I still think in stereo left/right (I’m old). smile
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/10/19 12:53 PM

According to the manual the CFX and the Bosendorfer sounds utilize four-channel sampling. It's interesting how they reproduce that through 6 speakers though. I would imagine you need 4 speakers for 4 channels. But maybe they double some of them.
Posted By: percy64

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/10/19 03:34 PM

The three speakers at the top would suggest that they are using 3 channel sound (at least spacially)
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/10/19 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by oneilt130
Did you do anything before you applied the wax?


I purchased a couple of piano cleaning products and one that I like is Cory Cleaner.

It's a non-abrasive, water-based cleaner that will remove natural/synthetic wax and surface contaminants. I tested a small portion of the piano with the Meguiars wax after applying the Cory cleaner and it came out really well. I then applied the Cory cleaner to see if it would remove the wax and it did. I then cleaned the entire piano with the Cory cleaner before I applied the Meguiars wax.

I don't know if the Cory Cleaner is a necessary step if you have never put anything else on the piano, but it's nice to start with a clean surface. I always clay bar my cars before I wax them and the result is a fantastically smooth and shiny finish.

Originally Posted by HwyStar
Excellent post, David! Thanks for sharing the pictures. And, the wax idea. That will come in handy to know for the future.


Again, I want to emphasize that it's not like applying wax to a car. The wax wipes off very easy on a car, but not as easy on the N1X. The microscopic porosity on a car surface is greater and the wax doesn't seem to lay on the surface as much. With the high polish N1X, even after you thoroughly wipe the wax off, the residual bonding layer is more discernible if you touch the piano. However, I like it because it really does leave an ultra slick and shiny protective coat on the piano.

You can easily scratch the N1X finish just by lightly dusting it with a microfiber cloth when the piano finish is bare. I know because I've done it. They are not deep scratches that you can feel with your nail, but they are enough to "cloud" the high polish finish. I guess that is the trade-off with a high polish finish. The wax not only covered up those fine blemishes, but it also provides a protective coating. It's so super slick that the dust glides off easier.

The reason I went with wax is that I'm leery of all-in-one products. I purchased one piano product that cleans, polishes, and protects. It had carnauba wax as an ingredient (I would assume that is the protectant). Since they don't include all the ingredients on the bottle, I contacted the company and asked if there were any abrasives in it since it "polishes" as well. Sure enough, there were abrasives in it.

I would rather have one product for each purpose. A cleaner for cleaning, a polish for polishing (if I were going to polish), and wax for protecting and final appearance. So I used the Cory Cleaner which only cleans, and the Meguiars wax which only protects and shines.

I suspect I won't have to clean again or apply wax for quite some time since the piano is not exposed to the elements. It's usually just dust on the top surfaces and fingerprints on the fallboard. Now that it is cleaned and waxed, maintenance will be a light dusting of the surface with a microfiber cloth and occasionally I'll wipe the fingerprints off the fallboard by applying some Meguirars quick detailer to a microfiber cloth. Time will tell if this is a good method or not.

God Bless,
David

Posted By: NormB

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/10/19 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Nice pics, David! smile And finally confirmed the jacks are indeed plastic.


At the same time, the hammer heads look to be nylon, which is really tough and stable. It is a bit harder to see, but the repetition levers may be nylon also.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/10/19 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by percy64
The three speakers at the top would suggest that they are using 3 channel sound (at least spacially)


Layman walking: is it possible that a multi-channel system for reproducing the sound of a piano is overkill?

I once owned a relic called the CLP380 and it used 8 speakers spread throughout the entire instrument, and I can tell you that I truly felt surrounded by the sound despite its old fashioned stereo system. There was plenty of clarity, separation, imaging, and all the goodies related to proper propagation.

Would you prefer the N1X fashioned 8 speakers (stereo) instead of 6 (multichannel)?
But one more thing, the 8 speakers in stereo would be of a much higher quality, and the overall size (at least for the subwoofer) would be larger.

P.S.

Yes, I know that the AvantGrand samples are recorded from 4 different points; however, the Novus also uses samples recorded from multiple sources, yet Kawai managed to cram them samples down to good ol’ stereo for the speaker system used on the Novus.
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/10/19 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by NormB
It is a bit harder to see, but the repetition levers may be nylon also.


Yeah, it's very difficult to get the camera in there because everything is so compact. It's not like examining the action on an acoustic grand (which I've done) because the keyframe on the N1X is fixed to the keybed.

God Bless,
David
Posted By: Frédéric L

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/10/19 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
According to the manual the CFX and the Bosendorfer sounds utilize four-channel sampling. It's interesting how they reproduce that through 6 speakers though. I would imagine you need 4 speakers for 4 channels. But maybe they double some of them.


Interesting, but puzzling... the speakers are : 8 cm x 3 + 13 cm x 2 + 16 cm x 1

One solution is each 8cm speaker has a channel, each 13cm are mixed from the two 8cm neighbours, and the 4th channel used for the middle 16cm.

But there are other settings. With a 8cm x 4, the allocation of channel would be more obvious.
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/10/19 04:54 PM

There was a request for a picture of the fiber optic sensor wires. Here are some pictures of the sensors that I did not post originally and another picture of the shine. smile

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

I also noticed that there is much less dust collecting on the piano. I didn't cover it last night and there was virtually no dust on it this morning. I might have removed a static charge by cleaning and waxing. Either way, I'm surprised by the unusually sparse amount of dust on it so far.

God Bless,
David

P.S. Some of the jacks are engaged because my hand was resting on the keys when I took the picture.
Posted By: newer player

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/10/19 06:38 PM

Thanks David!
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/10/19 07:07 PM

Originally Posted by newer player
Thanks David!


thumb
Posted By: Amy C

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/11/19 04:55 PM

She has arrived! The way it sounds in my home is SO much better than it sounded in store - the tone has warmed up a lot, no more of that buzziness I heard when playing at Cunningham. I turned the brilliance down to 1 and have kept it there, and turned down the reverb quite a bit. The action on this piano BLOWS ME AWAY. Seriously. It just feels so authentic under the hand.

This is a potato quality recording (recorded on my Android with no mic, I made a few mistakes, and the sun keeps running in and out of the clouds so the lighting is wacky) but you can get a sense for how lovely the sound is.


Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/11/19 05:05 PM

Congrats on your new piano! Beautiful playing smile BTW the recording through your phone creates the impression of an acoustic grand piano! In the rare moments I can play on speakers I also feel I’m playing a real grand.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/11/19 05:53 PM

Originally Posted by Amy C
She has arrived! The way it sounds in my home is SO much better than it sounded in store - the tone has warmed up a lot, no more of that buzziness I heard when playing at Cunningham. I turned the brilliance down to 1 and have kept it there, and turned down the reverb quite a bit. The action on this piano BLOWS ME AWAY. Seriously. It just feels so authentic under the hand.

This is a potato quality recording (recorded on my Android with no mic, I made a few mistakes, and the sun keeps running in and out of the clouds so the lighting is wacky) but you can get a sense for how lovely the sound is.

Congrats! Lovely playing and such a nice digital piano!
Posted By: NightTrain77

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/11/19 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by Amy C
She has arrived! The way it sounds in my home is SO much better than it sounded in store - the tone has warmed up a lot, no more of that buzziness I heard when playing at Cunningham. I turned the brilliance down to 1 and have kept it there, and turned down the reverb quite a bit. The action on this piano BLOWS ME AWAY. Seriously. It just feels so authentic under the hand.

This is a potato quality recording (recorded on my Android with no mic, I made a few mistakes, and the sun keeps running in and out of the clouds so the lighting is wacky) but you can get a sense for how lovely the sound is.


Lovely! The music's nice too.
Posted By: JJHLH

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/11/19 07:02 PM

Originally Posted by Amy C
She has arrived! The way it sounds in my home is SO much better than it sounded in store - the tone has warmed up a lot, no more of that buzziness I heard when playing at Cunningham. I turned the brilliance down to 1 and have kept it there, and turned down the reverb quite a bit. The action on this piano BLOWS ME AWAY. Seriously. It just feels so authentic under the hand.

This is a potato quality recording (recorded on my Android with no mic, I made a few mistakes, and the sun keeps running in and out of the clouds so the lighting is wacky) but you can get a sense for how lovely the sound is.




Wow Amy, that is some spectacular playing! I’m so impressed! If you say the action of the N1X blows you away that is very meaningful given your expert level of playing. I’m sure you have played many pianos getting to be as good as you are. Congratulations on the wonderful new instrument! I look forward to more videos like this!
Posted By: peterws

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/11/19 08:02 PM

Originally Posted by Amy C
She has arrived! The way it sounds in my home is SO much better than it sounded in store - the tone has warmed up a lot, no more of that buzziness I heard when playing at Cunningham. I turned the brilliance down to 1 and have kept it there, and turned down the reverb quite a bit. The action on this piano BLOWS ME AWAY. Seriously. It just feels so authentic under the hand.

This is a potato quality recording (recorded on my Android with no mic, I made a few mistakes, and the sun keeps running in and out of the clouds so the lighting is wacky) but you can get a sense for how lovely the sound is.




Funny how natural that piano sounds, with basic recording. Never sounds as good on YT demo vids. Lovely work, too. Quite a large instrument, isn't it? You'll enjoy it for years.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/11/19 08:33 PM

Originally Posted by peterws
Originally Posted by Amy C
This is a potato quality recording (recorded on my Android with no mic, I made a few mistakes, and the sun keeps running in and out of the clouds so the lighting is wacky) but you can get a sense for how lovely the sound is.

Funny how natural that piano sounds, with basic recording. Never sounds as good on YT demo vids.

Yes, for a potato, that was a mighty fine recording that Amy made. Perhaps it was also that it was Bach? Chopin might have required the potato at least to be baked first! wink
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/11/19 08:37 PM

Originally Posted by Amy C
She has arrived! The way it sounds in my home is SO much better than it sounded in store - the tone has warmed up a lot, no more of that buzziness I heard when playing at Cunningham. I turned the brilliance down to 1 and have kept it there, and turned down the reverb quite a bit. The action on this piano BLOWS ME AWAY. Seriously. It just feels so authentic under the hand.

This is a potato quality recording (recorded on my Android with no mic, I made a few mistakes, and the sun keeps running in and out of the clouds so the lighting is wacky) but you can get a sense for how lovely the sound is.

BTW, now that you have such a nice piano under your fingers, consider sharing your future recordings with others over here so others can also appreciate both your playing and your piano. smile
Posted By: johnstaf

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/11/19 10:08 PM

Fantastic Amy! I'm glad your AvantGrand found such a good home!
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/11/19 11:22 PM

Originally Posted by Amy C
She has arrived! ...
This is a potato quality recording (recorded on my Android with no mic...


wow

A beautiful woman, playing a beautiful piano, beautifully.

Thanks for sharing.

God Bless,
David
Posted By: Hecarim

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/12/19 12:18 AM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Congrats on your new piano! Beautiful playing smile BTW the recording through your phone creates the impression of an acoustic grand piano! In the rare moments I can play on speakers I also feel I’m playing a real grand.


I was thinking the same. If I didn't know it was a DP and listened to that recording with my eyes closed, I would bet on an acoustic piano. And a good one, too. The only reason why I would maaaaaybe suspect otherwise is because the sound is possibly too clean (if such thing is possible), I assume because of the settings Amy changed.

This is the Nth proof the YT videos (in a way, including this one) really should be take cum grano salis.

Most importantly: brilliant stuff Amy!
Posted By: Learux

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/12/19 02:02 AM

I liked your playing very much, That piano sounds great
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/12/19 04:28 AM

Amy's video (and Cunningham's) inspired me to try and capture the raw N1X sound. I used the two mics that I own (Rode NT1 and AT4033) and ran them through the right and left channels of my 2i4 and then panned them right and left in my DAW (Garage Band) for a stereo signal.

The piano sound is the N1X CFX multi channel sample with the factory settings. I recorded it as a wave file and did not process it at all. So it's a raw sound. I didn't try any other mic positions and recorded this on the second take. This is a song from my most recently compiled lesson in the Duane Shinn 52 Week Crash Course.

Ultimately, I prefer the binaural sample over the Multi channel one, but this still sounds good in person. It sounds good coming out of my studio monitors, but not so good out of my laptop speakers after it's been uploaded to youtube. I could probably play around with the mic positions to get a more accurate recording, but I didn't want to spend much time doing this. Hopefully it gives folks another perspective on the N1X sound.

Here it is.



God bless,
David

P.S. This sound is only the N1X internal speakers. My monitors are not producing any piano sound in this recording.


Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/12/19 06:02 AM

Originally Posted by Amy C
I turned the brilliance down to 1 and have kept it there, and turned down the reverb quite a bit.

Please take in mind the reverb level change isn’t preserved across piano restarts. Once you turn the piano off and on again it world restore the reverb level to the default value of 5. However the brilliance would be preserved. Also, the piano will store whether the reverb is on/off (the button light will be lit or not). So your only solution is to see whether you like the sound with the reverb entirely off and at least that would be preserved.
Posted By: pwl

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/12/19 06:03 AM

That is both nice playing and a very believable sound, imo.
Posted By: jgbs

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/12/19 06:09 AM

Last week I spent 2 hours tuesday and again 2 hours thursday in the shop to try and compare the NV10 vs N1X.
I met another customer who also came to try these pianos. It was intersting because we don't hear exactly the same when playing and when listening.
The youg man I was comparing with had a very good level and he was playing modern style music like jazz and so, while I am more classical player.
Both NV10 and N1X are really great for DP but even if the NV10 did not have the issue of the one I own, sound seems more clear on the N1X and action more firm and accurate.
As I had the choice between exchanging my NV10 or returning it, I decided to return the NV10 and bought the N1X.
Unfortunatly it's not avalaible until september but I can keep the Kawai until that date.
Listening Amy and David make me impatient. Thanks for your performance!
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/12/19 06:13 AM

Ohh, we have a switcher now smile jgbs, congrats and welcome! Hopefully they will be able to find one for you much earlier than September.
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/12/19 06:32 AM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Ohh, we have a switcher now smile


He's been proselytized. smile
Posted By: jgbs

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/12/19 07:44 AM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Ohh, we have a switcher now smile jgbs, congrats and welcome! Hopefully they will be able to find one for you much earlier than September.


I hope so!
But to be honest, the NV10 is great also and except the issue on some notes it will help me to wait.

Originally Posted by David B
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Ohh, we have a switcher now smile


He's been proselytized. smile




That's true, even if I had in mind to test the N1X anyway.
Posted By: 9190

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/12/19 08:48 AM

It seems that N1X will be a bestseller, and significantly surpass sales of NV10. Personally, I would choose N1X too.

Did someone compare how the pedal feels in both? I read that in Kawai it is too tight and requires user's actions to fix it. How about N1X, how it feels?
Posted By: Amy C

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/12/19 10:30 AM

David, that's one of my favorite hymns! Sounds really good (and played beautifully)...the sound you captured is pretty true to my experience of the piano, though yours has a bit more reverb and a bit of a broader sound to it, like a grand in a concert hall vs a grand in a studio (probably due to my settings and the fact that I have mine in a small room with a lot of wood).
Posted By: Amy C

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/12/19 10:35 AM

@9190 - I tried both the Yamaha and the Kawaii...yes, the Kawaii pedals are quite tight. The Yamaha's are on the opposite end, at least on mine - quite loose, almost bordering on too much so, but they are still extremely responsive. I play on an older Bosendorfer now and then that has extremely tight pedals and I've learned that I'd rather on the looser side with a little less control than on the tighter side and having to be jamming on it.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/12/19 10:44 AM

How do we know that Amy and David aren’t working for Yamaha? wink
They’ve already convinced one member to switch from the NV10 and have several others drooling over the N1X.

P.S.

Everybody knows that CyberGene works for Yamaha, and he’s been doing a great job at that! laugh
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/12/19 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by Pete14
Everybody knows that CyberGene works for Yamaha, and he’s been doing a great job at that! laugh


Quote

It's not about the money, money, money
We don't need your money, money, money
We just wanna make the world dance
Forget about the Price Tag
Well keep the price tag
And take the cash back
Just give me six strings
And a half stack
And you can, can keep the cars
Leave me the garage
And all I, yes all I need are keys and guitars
And guess what, in thirty seconds I'm leaving to Mars
Yeah we leaping across these undefeatable odds
It's like this man, you can't put a price on the life
We do this for the love so we fight and sacrifice every night
So we ain't gonna stumble and fall never
Waiting to see us in a sign of defeat uh uh
So we gonna keep everyone moving they feet
So bring back the beat and then everyone sing
It's not about the money.
Posted By: Amy C

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/12/19 11:38 AM

Hahaha, I WISH I worked for Yamaha. Getting to hang around pianos all day? Sounds good to me. Way less stressful that being a psychologist specializing in trauma!

Funnily enough, I'm actually not a big Yamaha person. The brightness of the tone isn't my cup of tea - I grew up on a 1920's Mason and Hamelin, and that deep, dark, bell-like tone really shaped my preference. I play a lot of Rachmaninoff and it just works so well with that sound. If I didn't have a house full of teenagers who need to study and sleep in after a late night shift and who do NOT appreciate being awoken to the sound of the Paganini variations, I would for sure have an M&H in my house - but alas, I need headphones. While I'm warming to the sound of the Yamaha, and I have to say I'm actually really surprised at how nice it sounds in my house, the spot-on action of the N1X combined with the ability to plug in headphones sold it for me. Nothing else came close that was digital.
Posted By: Grandman

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/12/19 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by 9190
It seems that N1X will be a bestseller, and significantly surpass sales of NV10. Personally, I would choose N1X too.

Did someone compare how the pedal feels in both? I read that in Kawai it is too tight and requires user's actions to fix it. How about N1X, how it feels?


Woa, slow down. That's a bit bold and premature based on the thoughts and comments of a very few on PW in the grand scheme of things.
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/12/19 11:50 AM

All of this is making me uneasy. I've had an urge to buy an NV10, and the only thing holding me is waiting for retirement in two years, moving to somewhere else, and then buying the new piano.
And now in the interim I'm tempted by the N1X.
I cannot have both ... so May 2021 is going to be a difficult time for me, trying to find and try these pianos ... and deciding which to take home.
Originally Posted by jgbs
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Ohh, we have a switcher now. jgbs, congrats and welcome! Hopefully they will be able to find one for you much earlier than September.
I hope so! But to be honest, the NV10 is great also and except the issue on some notes it will help me to wait.

Originally Posted by David B
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Ohh, we have a switcher now.
He's been proselytized.
That's true, even if I had in mind to test the N1X anyway.
Posted By: HwyStar

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/12/19 12:16 PM

Amy: Please report back to us in a week and let us know how the honeymoon is going for you with the N1X.

I do have an M&H "AA" and I get what you are saying on the bell-like response. Those piano's do sound unique compared to others since they are made so robustly.
Posted By: percy64

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/12/19 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
All of this is making me uneasy. I've had an urge to buy an NV10, and the only thing holding me is waiting for retirement in two years, moving to somewhere else, and then buying the new piano.
And now in the interim I'm tempted by the N1X.
I cannot have both ... so May 2021 is going to be a difficult time for me, trying to find and try these pianos ... and deciding which to take home

Perhaps there will be an NV20 / NV11 by then?

While the NV10 is an excellent first attempt for me the maturity of the N1X shows - the second generation Kawai should be a lot closer.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/12/19 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Please take in mind the reverb level change isn’t preserved across piano restarts. Once you turn the piano off and on again it world restore the reverb level to the default value of 5. ... So your only solution is to see whether you like the sound with the reverb entirely off and at least that would be preserved.

The preferred way I use my DP is to leave it on 24x7, especially as I use a VST and it otherwise just takes too long to turn on, boot up, and start - instead, I like being able to walk over, flip on the speakers (if I even use speakers) or put on the headphones, and just play.

My FP30 doesn't draw much power when it sits quietly. I looked up the Kawai NV10 and it is 60W. I assume it also draws less when it sits quietly. But what does the N1X consume? Googling, the closest I could find to the N1X was the K300 Aures which draws 58W. Is the N1X also about that? If I could just leave my DP on all the time, then I really won't be caring much about which settings are preserved and which ones aren't. At least most of the time unless I'm forced to restart the DP.
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/12/19 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by Amy C
Hahaha, I WISH I worked for Yamaha. Getting to hang around pianos all day? Sounds good to me. Way less stressful that being a psychologist specializing in trauma!


Originally Posted by MacMacMac
All of this is making me uneasy... so May 2021 is going to be a difficult time for me, trying to find and try these pianos ... and deciding which to take home.


Don't worry MacMac, now that we have a resident psychologist on the forum, Amy can help you cope with the stress thus reducing the trauma of this upcoming experience. smile

Let's take up a forum offering to go towards MacMac's counseling sessions. Maybe Amy will give forum members a discount. smile

God bless,
David
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/12/19 03:12 PM

So no one has chosen to contest my claim that "I cannot have both" ? smile
Posted By: JJHLH

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/12/19 03:26 PM

I am very tempted by the N1X, particularly after seeing and hearing the wonderful playing by the pianists on this thread. It seems like a wonderful instrument. I like the fact that the AvantGrand series has been around since 2009 and has a proven track record.

I have a couple of questions I was wondering if anyone could help me with:

1. Do you anticipate a sale on the N1X around Black Friday? Has that happened in the past with the N1?

2. How are the keytops compared to the Ivorite used on the N2 or N3/N3X? Is there a noticeable difference?

Thanks for any input you can offer!
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/12/19 03:32 PM

I've seen Black Friday sales for digitals from retailers, but Yamaha typically subsidies sales at year end (Christmas to New Years) on their hybrids and acoustics.
Posted By: jgbs

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/12/19 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Please take in mind the reverb level change isn’t preserved across piano restarts. Once you turn the piano off and on again it world restore the reverb level to the default value of 5. ... So your only solution is to see whether you like the sound with the reverb entirely off and at least that would be preserved.

The preferred way I use my DP is to leave it on 24x7, especially as I use a VST and it otherwise just takes too long to turn on, boot up, and start - instead, I like being able to walk over, flip on the speakers (if I even use speakers) or put on the headphones, and just play.

My FP30 doesn't draw much power when it sits quietly. I looked up the Kawai NV10 and it is 60W. I assume it also draws less when it sits quietly. But what does the N1X consume? Googling, the closest I could find to the N1X was the K300 Aures which draws 58W. Is the N1X also about that? If I could just leave my DP on all the time, then I really won't be caring much about which settings are preserved and which ones aren't. At least most of the time unless I'm forced to restart the DP.


I guess that when it sits quitly it draws peanuts either NV10 or N1X
Posted By: 9190

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X – Hands On - 05/12/19 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by Amy C
@9190 - I tried both the Yamaha and the Kawaii...yes, the Kawaii pedals are quite tight. The Yamaha's are on the opposite end, at least on mine - quite loose, almost bordering on too much so, but they are still extremely responsive. I play on an older Bosendorfer now and then that has extremely tight pedals and I've learned that I'd rather on the looser side with a little less control than on the tighter side and having to be jamming on it.

Thanks, Amy. Could you clarify. If you rest your foot in a shoe on the pedal, will the pedal start to move down a little?

One more question about pedal. If I remember correctly, some of previous generation AvantGrand models had a bug when holding a chord and making repedaling was exaggerating the sound. Is it fixed in N1X?

Originally Posted by Grandman
Originally Posted by 9190
It seems that N1X will be a bestseller, and significantly surpass sales of NV10. Personally, I would choose N1X too.
Woa, slow down. That's a bit bold and premature based on the thoughts and comments of a very few on PW in the grand scheme of things.

Just remember this post, wink thoughts from which based not just on few PW forum member messages.
Posted By: HwyStar

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X – Hands On - 05/12/19 06:43 PM

Mac'ster: Go for it. Then you would have the Kawai and Yammer/Bosendorfer samples. Why not? You live only once and cannot take it with you.

The better excuse: I want to leave my grandkids something to remember me by!
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/12/19 07:22 PM

I tried to play around with mic position a little bit today and it has become obvious (to me) that I cannot duplicate what I'm hearing with the two mics I have. I tried moving the mics closer to my ears, but I just can't capture the texture and nuances of the CFX multi-channel sample. Moving the mics closer to my ears I think improves the recording a bit, but unfortunately, now you can hear more keys noise.

Here is a song from earlier on in the Duane Shinn Course recorded that same way as before except with the mics closer to my ears in the hope of capturing a sound that is closer to what I hear. Clearly this method of recording a digital piano is not ideal and it's not going to replace recording via a direct audio interface connection, but I was curious to see what it would sound like. My curiosity has been abated now.



God Bless,
David



Posted By: Amy C

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/12/19 09:36 PM

@9190 - Yes, the pedal will move down - but it won't engage, though, until you have pressed down a good bit more. I don't know how much that is true across all the N1x's, but it is true for mine.

David, I don't think you captured the sound entirely unfaithfully! I think It's pretty close - I wonder if part of the issue is that the N1X has a tendency to sound very "clean" as it is, and then the mics on top of that smooth out the remaining texture and nuance that we can hear in person.
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/12/19 10:21 PM

Originally Posted by Amy C
David, I don't think you captured the sound entirely unfaithfully! I think It's pretty close - I wonder if part of the issue is that the N1X has a tendency to sound very "clean" as it is, and then the mics on top of that smooth out the remaining texture and nuance that we can hear in person.


I think that's a good point.

Also, I'm trying to compare what I hear when I play, which is 4-Channel multi sampling (spread out over 6 speakers), to the recorded sound which is a simple 2-channel stereo reproduction. There are probably other factors as well that I'm not smart enough to understand.

I feel like the N1X delivers a very satisfying sound through the internal speakers. The amazing binaural sample through headphones is on an entirely other level.

God Bless,
David
Posted By: Hecarim

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/12/19 10:44 PM

Originally Posted by David B
I tried to play around with mic position a little bit today and it has become obvious (to me) that I cannot duplicate what I'm hearing with the two mics I have. I tried moving the mics closer to my ears, but I just can't capture the texture and nuances of the CFX multi-channel sample. Moving the mics closer to my ears I think improves the recording a bit, but unfortunately, now you can hear more keys noise.

Here is a song from earlier on in the Duane Shinn Course recorded that same way as before except with the mics closer to my ears in the hope of capturing a sound that is closer to what I hear. Clearly this method of recording a digital piano is not ideal and it's not going to replace recording via a direct audio interface connection, but I was curious to see what it would sound like. My curiosity has been abated now.


God Bless,
David





To my ear, this second recording has a crispier, cleaner sound compared to your first one. To be honest, after hearing Amy's video, I was surprised about your first one, as it almost sound muffled in comparison. This 2nd one brings to my ear that crisp, clean sound that might lack the strings resonance fiesta of an acoustic, but that I absolutely love.

Tomorrow I'll go (again) at the Yamaha showroom to try the piano because this forum is not having a good effect on me and it compels me to be willing to try that thing again just because I want to compare it to these 3 recordings. I hate you and I love you all laugh
Posted By: navindra

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/12/19 11:31 PM

Originally Posted by David B
You can easily scratch the N1X finish just by lightly dusting it with a microfiber cloth when the piano finish is bare. I know because I've done it. They are not deep scratches that you can feel with your nail, but they are enough to "cloud" the high polish finish. I guess that is the trade-off with a high polish finish. The wax not only covered up those fine blemishes, but it also provides a protective coating. It's so super slick that the dust glides off easier.


I'm confused because when I was researching pianos, I'm quite sure I came across Yamaha marketing literature that claimed the ebony gloss finish was specially treated to be scratch resistant. I remember thinking I wish Kawai also had the same scratch resistant treatment.

However, I can't find this marketing claim anymore. Perhaps it doesn't apply to the N1X? Or perhaps Yamaha retracted the claim?
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/12/19 11:48 PM

Originally Posted by navindra

I'm confused because when I was researching pianos, I'm quite sure I came across Yamaha marketing literature that claimed the ebony gloss finish was specially treated to be scratch resistant.


I'm not sure what kind of finish they use. I contacted my dealer and they didn't know (not definitively). I contacted Yamaha customer service and they didn't know.

It must be a secret.

God Bless,
David
Posted By: TomLC

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/12/19 11:56 PM

Is this “scratching” a problem for all you N1x owners?
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/12/19 11:59 PM

Originally Posted by TomLC
Is this “scratching” a problem for all you N1x owners?


Not with with the help of Meguiars.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/13/19 04:53 AM

Mine doesn’t have any scratches yet besides a very tiny one after my daughter tried to draw with a very hard chalk on the surface... Still it’s barely visible.
Posted By: NormB

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/13/19 01:52 PM

To maintain that finish without any issue of wax buildup perhaps use a spray on, wipe off car 'gloss enhancer' like this one from Zaino.
Posted By: HwyStar

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/13/19 03:44 PM

Good link NormB!

It does say this at the bottom of that page and that may apply to pianos better:

Please note: Using the product in its original concentration will provide the best results. However, some people may find it difficult to evenly spray Z-6™ in its extremely high concentration. To make Z-6™ Ultra Clean more user-friendly, you may dilute the product with distilled water up to a ratio of 1 to 1 to help you get better results. Test by diluting with small proportions until you find what works best for you. Again, for optimal results, it is best not to dilute Z-6™ Ultra Clean.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/13/19 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by Amy C
@9190 - I tried both the Yamaha and the Kawaii...yes, the Kawaii pedals are quite tight. The Yamaha's are on the opposite end, at least on mine - quite loose, almost bordering on too much so, but they are still extremely responsive. I play on an older Bosendorfer now and then that has extremely tight pedals and I've learned that I'd rather on the looser side with a little less control than on the tighter side and having to be jamming on it.

Amy C, if you had your preference would you have preferred the pedals on the N1X to be different in any way, or are you fully satisfied with them? When you tested out the NV10, did you find it any easier to control half-pedalling on the NV10 or the N1X? I assume from your remarks above that you think the Bosendorfer's pedals are too tight and the NV10 is too similar to that? Is that right?

Also, moving away from pedaling, when you tried both N1X and NV10, how did you find the keyboard action compares to each other, and say, the Bosendorfer you play?
Posted By: rach3master

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/13/19 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Amy C, if you had your preference would you have preferred the pedals on the N1X to be different in any way, or are you fully satisfied with them? When you tested out the NV10, did you find it any easier to control half-pedalling on the NV10 or the N1X? I assume from your remarks above that you think the Bosendorfer's pedals are too tight and the NV10 is too similar to that? Is that right?

Also, moving away from pedaling, when you tried both N1X and NV10, how did you find the keyboard action compares to each other, and say, the Bosendorfer you play?

I owned the N1 (not the N1X) for 2 years and have currently owned the NV10 for about 9 months. The N1's pedal action was just fine in every aspect and I presume the N1X would have remained the same, if not improved. The NV10's pedal action, on the other hand, is very stiff out of the box, and the half-pedaling window is much too narrow to apply consistently. Fortunately, I had a piano technician regulate the mechanism to adjust it to my liking, and I have no more issues with it now.
Posted By: Amy C

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/13/19 06:12 PM

Tyrone, I completely agree with rach3master - the N1X damper and sostenuto pedals are great - totally responsive and not too stiff and, even though on the slightly looser side, completely responsive to half-pedaling. Playing through some debussy yesterday, the the pedal really allowed for a wide range of sound. I found the half-pedaling easier on the N1X, and indeed, the very stiff pedals were a big mark against the Kawaii. The only thing I'm not super thrilled with is that the soft pedal is not very responsive. I wish it was a little stronger of an effect - it doesn't have quite that "glossy" sound that a grand does when used.

As for action, honestly, the NV10 was extremely good - I'd say comparable to the Yamaha. But taken as a whole - when I sat down to play something that needed a lot of fine control and really small gradations of texture and tone and pedal, the Yamaha definitely won out. Compared to the Bosendorfer or the Steinways I frequently play on? They are VERY close in feel. It is most comparable to a rebuilt early 20th century Chickering that I play on once a week - slightly stiffer action, but quite responsive. The only thing I noticed is with some finicky and fast turns/trills/other ornamentation, every now and then they don't come through, even though I know I'm hitting it right. I don't have that issue on the Chickering.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/13/19 06:19 PM

Thanks rach3master & Amy C! Very helpful! I'm thinking I will buy one of these two this week (finally).
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/13/19 06:35 PM

Originally Posted by Amy C
The only thing I noticed is with some finicky and fast turns/trills/other ornamentation, every now and then they don't come through, even though I know I'm hitting it right. I don't have that issue on the Chickering.

Hmm, wondering if it’s the same effect of very occasional note misses we discussed recently in this thread with Christy. I thought (and still believe) it’s due to the double repetition lever needing a bit more key release travel to do its job, i.e. it’s perfectly normal for a grand piano action. However now that three of us have noticed it, it is (very) slightly worrying smile I even have my own theory about why it works this way, knowing the Yamaha patent smile But I’m from my phone so will explain later. I can reproduce it only in one particular place in the Chopin’s first ballade but I know how to avoid it too. I mean it’s rare and is easy to overcome (basically you need to get used to the particular key rebound of the Yamaha action and anticipate how it would behave and kind of internalize how much to release the key depending on how fast you need to replay it).
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/13/19 06:40 PM

I still think it's just me and learning how to use the action on a grand. Though I don't get the "stuck key" feeling on my teacher's piano like the N1X, I do have an issue with repeated notes not sounding on his piano. I'd be interested in what you've identified about the action that might cause this. As you say, and I talked to my teacher about this, it definitely has to do with how I'm striking the keys and I'm working on some ideas he had to make it better.
Posted By: HwyStar

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/13/19 07:04 PM

Maybe 256 polyphony? Doubtful, but with how fast some of you pros are playing anything could be possible. I am just throwing it out there. It is probably not that.
Posted By: TomLC

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/13/19 07:13 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Thanks rach3master & Amy C! Very helpful! I'm thinking I will buy one of these two this week (finally).


I for one will be really interested in what you decide Tyrone. Even though you have received everyones opinion, it is really up to you. Get the one, or something else, that makes you feel good. Regardless of what everyone else thinks. Try to play several grands and uprights too. I played a Estonia grand last week. As soon as I touched the keyboard I was in love. So light and smooth. Until I heard the sound I was making. . Sooooo bright! I couldn’t keep playing it. However, many folks love it? My point being, YMMV. wink.
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/13/19 09:34 PM

Originally Posted by HwyStar
Maybe 256 polyphony? Doubtful, but with how fast some of you pros are playing anything could be possible. I am just throwing it out there. It is probably not that.


No it's definitely not a polyphony issue, it has to do with how the sensors deal with the jack resetting on the key I'm pretty sure. And as noted, it's possible to get something similar to happen on other grand pianos even acoustics. I'm actually curious if this affects Yamaha acoustic grands if CyberGene has found an issue if the patent action, or if it's specifically how the Yamaha action works with the sensors.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/13/19 09:49 PM

I think it has to do with sensors.

Let me try to explain my theory about the missed notes in N1X. It’s just a theory and before making it into a “silent note issue”-gate (similar to the infamous loud note issue in NU1X), this one happens very rarely, has rather easier workaround and maybe I’m just wrong smile

You’ll probably get lost in my explanation and non-native English anyway laugh

Yamaha initially thought of measuring the key velocity only, as in NU1X. However they knew it would lead to loud note issues and they even mentioned that in the patent. But key velocity is much more precise than hammer because it’s slower (1:5 ratio). So according to the patent Yamaha still measure key velocities but also add hammer sensors and compare values (also look for discrepancies). For instance, if the key velocity is higher than some value, the hammer velocity is then checked because we might be in a NU1X situation smile The hammer one is the truth.

So, to measure hammer velocity you need to measure the time hammer passes between two points. The second point should be where the hammer hits the string/rail. The first one however should be after the escapement because if you play “off the jack” you would have erroneous measurement. Why? Because you slowly press the key up to the escapement point (hammer is 1mm before the string) and if you’ve already passed the first sensor, the measurement would have started. Then you wait and hit hard. And time duration is not the correct one. It would be too long. So, we should position the two points within the last 1mm. However we know that the hammer can reach velocities in excess of 5m/s (some say even 10m/s). So, the closer the two points are, the less precise the measurement is because all hammers are scanned in a loop and the CPU needs to be very fast to be able to cope with such a short duration. Yamaha knew that and so they decided to play safe and since hammer measuring is only a fallback, they put the first sensor before the escapement, according to N3 service manual it’s full 10mm of hammer travel before the string (out of around 50mm of total blow distance). That’s well beyond escapement and has the potential of missing notes were it not for the key velocity measurement.

And now comes the interesting part. You play a fast repeated note with only slightly releasing the key. The hammer usually rests on the back-check 8mm from the string. If you release the key very slightly so that the jack is reengaged but the hammer never drops to activate the first sensor (i.e. hammer stays within the 10mm zone) then no hammer velocity will be measured and so the measurement system will get confused. It will measure a high key velocity strike with undetermined hammer velocity. It would fallback to producing zero.


Or maybe it’s just that the slightly extended escapement distance on the AvantGrand pianos (varies from 3mm to 2mm, compared to usually 2-1mm on real grands) that requires a slightly higher release of the keys. I mean it could just be a mechanical deficiency which is also present on real grands as discussed and may (or may not) be more pronounced due to the longer escapement distance.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/13/19 10:35 PM

OK, forget what I said smile I just sat at the piano to analyze that “issue”. It’s the first time since I have my N1X that I sit at the piano not to actually play but to analyze and observe stuff smile I never needed it.

It’s purely mechanical and expected. The key simply won’t replay if not released at least a few millimeter off the bottom. That’s how grand piano action works and how repetition lever is expected to help the jack reengage. It’s much better than upright piano actions but still needs some release. I’m not sure what the standard regulation dictates but it might be that on the N1X it’s slightly higher than standard. Or maybe it’s OK. Why I encountered it only in one particular piece: because it’s a repeating black note I have to play with my pinky. My pinky is short and weak and it lacks the speed and agility compared to the other fingers. All that (and the higher position of the black key) make it harder for me to release the black key enough with the pinky to be repeated. I need to practice more. But it’s totally expected and natural.
Posted By: JJHLH

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/13/19 11:06 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
OK, forget what I said smile I just sat at the piano to analyze that “issue”. It’s the first time since I have my N1X that I sit at the piano not to actually play but to analyze and observe stuff smile I never needed it.

It’s purely mechanical and expected. The key simply won’t replay if not released at least a few millimeter off the bottom. That’s how grand piano action works and how repetition lever is expected to help the jack reengage. It’s much better than upright piano actions but still needs some release. I’m not sure what the standard regulation dictates but it might be that on the N1X it’s slightly higher than standard. Or maybe it’s OK. Why I encountered it only in one particular piece: because it’s a repeating black note I have to play with my pinky. My pinky is short and weak and it lacks the speed and agility compared to the other fingers. All that (and the higher position of the black key) make it harder for me to release the black key enough with the pinky to be repeated. I need to practice more. But it’s totally expected and natural.


Thanks for the information. It makes perfect sense the way you describe it.
Posted By: navindra

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/14/19 12:48 AM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
My pinky is short and weak and it lacks the speed and agility compared to the other fingers.


This is the first I've heard of this short and weak pinky issue causing N1X silent keys and missed notes. This is very worrying, to say the least... Tyrone could you let us know if you see the same issue when you audition the N1X?
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/14/19 12:53 AM

Originally Posted by navindra
Originally Posted by CyberGene
My pinky is short and weak and it lacks the speed and agility compared to the other fingers.

This is the first I've heard of this short and weak pinky issue causing N1X silent keys and missed notes. This is very worrying, to say the least... Tyrone could you let us know if you see the same issue when you audition the N1X?

I will. And in fact, when I go, I will bring a tape measure and not only measure the distance from the point where you feel the double escapement to the keybed on the N1X, and then compare this for some of the Steinways and Yamahas in the same store. Because of course, if the key is not release to above the escapement, then it cannot play again - this is a limitation of the double escapement of the grand piano. I will also try this measurement on the NV10 so I can compare that distance. Will post my findings in a day or two.



(I know some are probably really tired of this video as I've posted it on PW at least 4-5 times already, but the first few mins explains the double escapement issue.)
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/14/19 04:20 AM

Originally Posted by navindra
Originally Posted by CyberGene
My pinky is short and weak and it lacks the speed and agility compared to the other fingers.


This is the first I've heard of this short and weak pinky issue causing N1X silent keys and missed notes. This is very worrying, to say the least... Tyrone could you let us know if you see the same issue when you audition the N1X?

It’s the digital piano with the heaviest keys I’ve owned too. And the keys are not as springy as typical digital piano actions. Plus it has real escapement, not a simulated one, so once escaped you need to then un-escape. I’ve had this issue on real grands too but I’ve never owned one to really be able to observe any patterns. I’m way too used to digital actions after all.
Posted By: navindra

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/14/19 05:32 AM

It appears I'm far too adept at channeling Pete14. Appreciate the thoroughness, folks! smile
Posted By: Harpuia

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/14/19 11:09 AM

CyberGene do you have the link of Yamaha patent? i’m pretty interested reading that
Posted By: Harpuia

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/14/19 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by navindra
Originally Posted by CyberGene
My pinky is short and weak and it lacks the speed and agility compared to the other fingers.

This is the first I've heard of this short and weak pinky issue causing N1X silent keys and missed notes. This is very worrying, to say the least... Tyrone could you let us know if you see the same issue when you audition the N1X?

I will. And in fact, when I go, I will bring a tape measure and not only measure the distance from the point where you feel the double escapement to the keybed on the N1X, and then compare this for some of the Steinways and Yamahas in the same store. Because of course, if the key is not release to above the escapement, then it cannot play again - this is a limitation of the double escapement of the grand piano. I will also try this measurement on the NV10 so I can compare that distance. Will post my findings in a day or two.



(I know some are probably really tired of this video as I've posted it on PW at least 4-5 times already, but the first few mins explains the double escapement issue.)


Thank you Throne Slothrop so much for you to post this video! This pianist explains so well why the grand action is easier to control. Now I know the advantage of grand action is not only for repeated notes. The escapement provides so many possibilities and I’m so glad that I chose an N3 with grand action.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/14/19 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by Harpuia
CyberGene do you have the link of Yamaha patent? i’m pretty interested reading that

There's a link and an image I've posted somewhere in the huge NV10 thread but someone need to find it...

P.S. Found it: Yamaha patent
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/14/19 10:37 PM

I discovered my old Sennheiser HD595-s today. I remember I compared them to my HD650s with Garritan CFX and the 650-s were doing black (should I say dark?) magic to the Garritan CFX whereas the 595-s were piercing and bright. Which is why they’ve been sitting unused for ages. What a mistake! I tested them on the N1X, and they made such a difference! I guess it’s now the opposite: the brighter nature opens the sound and makes the binaural 3D illusion even better. They just make the piano feel even more realistic. What’s more, I’ve previously mentioned some trills in the middle sounded kind of disconnected which I thought was something related to the binaural sampling. Well, I think it’s now much better with the 595-s, so it must have been frequency related. Plus, they’re 50 Ohm and are deafening at max level, I had to dial down the volume to 2 o’clock. Absolute keeper. So, it won’t hurt if you experiment with headphones, the results may surprise you.

I’d get accused of being boring but it was another day when I just can’t get enough of my piano, I LOVE IT!!! smile Which made me think a bit more about that. I realized it’s the fact I can control the dynamics very easily. And that’s a result of the high inertia of the keys, i.e. the dynamic weight. Maybe it comes from the counterweights or simply the actual action parameters but the higher inertia makes it much easier to control and give the desired velocity. It comes at the price of requiring more workout for the fingers but the substantial dynamic mass allows for the fingers to transfer the exact momentum even halfway through the key press. I know it’s a mater of taste and other people may prefer lighter actions. And BTW I think it’s the higher inertia that will unfortunately make the key to bounce back slower than a lighter key, which is probably why a fast repetition near the escapement point might lead to the silent notes. And can be overcome by playing off the jack as shown in that famous video Tyrone posted. I mean all grand pianos need some degree of release before you can repeat the key but a heavier action might feel like slightly worse in that respect.
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/14/19 10:49 PM

Haven't heard yet from piano store, going to call them which kind of irritates me, tech was sure they'd call me back the next day or two. I'm leaving for Tokyo for a week on Saturday so hopefully they will get back to me before then.
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/14/19 11:56 PM

Congratulation Tyrone! Just saw your update in prices paid. Welcome to the fold smile
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/15/19 12:02 AM

A little late, but I finally joined the club. Amy C's post and David B's most recent post probably pushed me over the top since the sound was so good even from a potato smile (in the case of Amy C's phone) and David B's two mics.

I did try the Kawai Novus NV10 today as mentioned above, and overall, the N1X just seemed a lot better for me (with my own aural preferences and as a headphone user). They did "throw in" (translation: I paid for it in my total price laugh ) the N1X wireless adaptor. Delivery is next Thursday or Friday.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/15/19 01:34 AM

Congrats on the purchase! Welcome to the hybrid club!
Posted By: EPW

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/15/19 01:58 AM

Wow Tyrone you didn't fool around smile
Enjoy!
Posted By: jeffscot

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/15/19 02:04 AM


Congrats Tyrone! thumb

So the wife gave the go ahead, or is this decision still under review? laugh
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/15/19 02:23 AM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by navindra
This is the first I've heard of this short and weak pinky issue causing N1X silent keys and missed notes. This is very worrying, to say the least... Tyrone could you let us know if you see the same issue when you audition the N1X?
I will. And in fact, when I go, I will bring a tape measure and not only measure the distance from the point where you feel the double escapement to the keybed on the N1X, and then compare this for some of the Steinways and Yamahas in the same store. Because of course, if the key is not release to above the escapement, then it cannot play again - this is a limitation of the double escapement of the grand piano. I will also try this measurement on the NV10 so I can compare that distance. Will post my findings in a day or two.

I went to two piano stores today to compare N1X and NV10. I had a tape measure, but not calipers, so I really don't think my numbers can be used for precise comparison purposes. For each of the NV10, N1X, a Steinway B acoustical grand, and a Kawai GL30 acoustical grand, I measured both the key dip distance and the distance between the keybed and point where one feels the escapement. My results for all four were approximately 11-12mm key dip, of which 1.5-2.0mm was the distance from the keybed to the point where one feels the escapement for the given key.

Originally Posted by Gombessa
Congrats on the purchase! Welcome to the hybrid club!

Thanks!

Originally Posted by EPW
Wow Tyrone you didn't fool around smile
Enjoy!

Thanks. Although I did fool around a lot. I first started looking at upgrades in late November 2018, so it's approaching 6 months of window shopping. I also took many different turns along the way. There was a time when I was seriously considering the VPC1 and MP11SE for example. Then when I thought I would get the NV10 back in January, I wanted to wait for the N1X, and when it was released at NAMM, waited interminably for it to hit my local piano store. Then I even toyed with waiting to see if there would be an N2X at Summer NAMM. But I finally decided I was being ridiculous and the piano I can use right now is better than one in my dream.

This said, I am now quite glad I didn't buy the NV10 in January and waited for the N1X, because I was really wow'ed by the sound through my Sennheiser HD800's, even without a separate headphone amp as I have at home.

Originally Posted by jeffscot
Congrats Tyrone! thumb

So the wife gave the go ahead, or is this decision still under review? laugh

LOL. Wife doesn't know and since she prefers our Amsterdam flat to DC, and she doesn't read PW, she won't find out until she comes home to DC. wink

But I predict the main angst when she discovers it will be that I am "making her play a Kawai ES110" in Amsterdam and didn't get her one. Well I'm quite determined to not get the same one for her for our Amsterdam flat since I think buy two identical pianos is stupid (which is why we had an FP30 in DC but have an ES110 in Amsterdam), so it may just be that I could end up buying an NV10 after all. BUT, it might just also be that she'll not notice I upgraded my pianistic life. wink (She spends as little time in DC as possible.)
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/15/19 03:08 AM

Congrats Tyrone!

I shall look forward to seeing how you manage to squeeze the N1X into the allocated space in your apartment.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/15/19 03:15 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Congrats Tyrone!

I shall look forward to seeing how you manage to squeeze the N1X into the allocated space in your apartment.

Kind regards,
James
x


Yes! I've already just mentioned to two people who asked me the same question in PM about my space (or lack of it) that I have an interior designer that will have to reorganize me. But that will take 4-6 weeks. So probably no piano porn pics from me for 4-6 weeks! wink
Posted By: johnstaf

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/15/19 04:29 AM

Congratulations Tyrone! That's fantastic news. It's a fantastic piano. You'll love it!
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/15/19 05:06 AM

Congrats, Tyrone, feel very happy for you, welcome to the club smile I knew it wink
Posted By: iLogic

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/15/19 05:16 AM

Gosh, I regret finding this forum. Makes it hard to settle for anything not costing an arm and a leg when reading posts like these from Tyrone haha...
Posted By: newer player

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/15/19 05:18 AM

@CyberGene - Now that you have settled in with the N1X, it would be interesting for you to connect Garritan CFX for an evening and hear your quick opinion comparing N1X on playability, sound, general enjoyment, and whatever else you note.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/15/19 05:39 AM

Originally Posted by johnstaf
Congratulations Tyrone! That's fantastic news. It's a fantastic piano. You'll love it!

Thanks!

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Congrats, Tyrone, feel very happy for you, welcome to the club smile

Haha. Thanks!

Originally Posted by CyberGene
I knew it wink

You might have known but until I tried the NV10 side-by-side with the N1X (or almost side-by-side - different piano stores separated by about 40 mins), I was 50:50 split between N1X and NV10, and if anything leaning just slightly toward NV10 because of the real damper pedal. But when I tried it and compared it to the N1X pedal, I honestly felt the N1X pedal was so much easier for me to control. That real damper action was erased by the greater difficulty it was to control the damper, and that I seemed to be able to half-pedal on the NV10 at only one single exact point. I'm definitely not that precise.

Lastly but probably most importantly, the Bonner's Music comparison of the sound made me think the NV10 sounded clearly better to me. About 4 notes were even oversaturated on the N1X. But as you pointed out in your Youtube comment to that video, the N1X introduced the binaural headphone mode. So today, when I brought my headphones to both stores, there was no doubt to me that with headphones, the N1X sounded so much better to my ears than the NV10 did. Binaural headphone mode made a huge difference, and I think Kawai needs to play catch up on that feature.

In the end, after personally trying, it was an easy decision for me that I was able to make without even considering price. For me, the differences were that significant.
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/15/19 06:40 AM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Amy C's post and David B's most recent post probably pushed me over the top since the sound was so good even from a potato smile (in the case of Amy C's phone) and David B's two mics.


cool


Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
So today, when I brought my headphones to both stores, there was no doubt to me that with headphones, the N1X sounded so much better to my ears than the NV10 did. Binaural headphone mode made a huge difference, and I think Kawai needs to play catch up on that feature.

In the end, after personally trying, it was an easy decision for me that I was able to make without even considering price. For me, the differences were that significant.


Binaural is the bomb!!!

I'd love to try it with your 800's.

Congrats on the purchase.

God Bless,
David
Posted By: Iaroslav Vasiliev

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/15/19 07:08 AM

Wonderful news, Tyrone! My congratulations!

I'm yet to play N1X and your description of it has blown my appetite. smile
Posted By: KevinM

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/15/19 08:19 AM

Congrats Tyone. Great news for you. I wish lots of enjoyment with your new piano.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/15/19 08:37 AM

Tyrone, with your formidable memory you seem to be the best one to maintain our N1X adoption statistics smile
Posted By: johnstaf

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/15/19 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Tyrone, with your formidable memory you seem to be the best one to maintain our N1X adoption statistics smile


We have our very own piano Google!

Congratulations again Tyrone. How utterly wonderful!
Posted By: QuasiUnaFantasia

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/15/19 10:42 AM

Also congratulations from me for reaching a decision Tyrone! Now it will be interesting how well Pianoteq fares. My guess is that it will get very little usage from now on. Probably just a few times to remind yourself, how much better the N1X sounds. smile
Posted By: TomLC

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/15/19 02:12 PM

Happy you are happy, Tyrone. Looking forward to seeing a pic of the new setup.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/15/19 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by David B
Binaural is the bomb!!!

I was really shocked it made such a difference. I did check out CyberGene's binaural recordings and they seemed nice, but when I was at the piano with headphones, it blew me away.

I think we should have a thread with N1X owners though to share settings. I'm with Amy C on not liking the default brilliance, but a little reverb is not bad. Interested in what other people are using on their N1X so I can try those settings out on myself too.

Originally Posted by David B
I'd love to try it with your 800's.

Due to G.A.S., I was thinking of actually upgrading to HD800S's, but I was so impressed with how the N1X sounds with the HD800's, I think I'm going to table that.

Originally Posted by David B
Congrats on the purchase.

Thanks!

Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
Wonderful news, Tyrone! My congratulations!

I'm yet to play N1X and your description of it has blown my appetite. smile

And you probably shouldn't unless you are ready for it to make a 650,000 RR hole in your pocket! laugh

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Tyrone, with your formidable memory you seem to be the best one to maintain our N1X adoption statistics smile

Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Tyrone, with your formidable memory you seem to be the best one to maintain our N1X adoption statistics smile


We have our very own piano Google!

LOL. Euler1707, CyberGene, pianokat123, J5on, Amy C, Bro', jgbs, Tyrone Slothrop, David B, Chrispy, Tyrone Slothrop. Who did I leave off?

Originally Posted by johnstaf
Congratulations again Tyrone. How utterly wonderful!

Now I just have to just get it in time to furiously practice Twinkle Twinkle before the piano party so I'm not embarrassed!

Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
Also congratulations from me for reaching a decision Tyrone! Now it will be interesting how well Pianoteq fares. My guess is that it will get very little usage from now on. Probably just a few times to remind yourself, how much better the N1X sounds. smile

Thanks. I'm feeling quite nostalgic about Pianoteq. I had been thinking of upgrading my piano PC to be able to run Pianoteq with a silly number of voices but that also is at least temporarily tabled as I check out if the N1X fully satisfies me as I think it might. I also suspect I may have just swung unexpectedly toward sampled pianos. LOL.

With regard to VSTs, I will go ahead and buy either Garritan CFX full or VSL Synchron Concert D though. Need to try those out. But probably not immediately. N1X by itself seems like it will be satisfactory for me.

Originally Posted by TomLC
Happy you are happy, Tyrone. Looking forward to seeing a pic of the new setup.

Well that's not going to happen that soon since I'm engaging an interior designer to make my space livable with the new piano since it definitely won't fit in the currently allocated location. About 4-6 weeks, will put up my pics though - maybe after Bulgaria though wink
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/15/19 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Originally Posted by TomLC
Happy you are happy, Tyrone. Looking forward to seeing a pic of the new setup.

Well that's not going to happen that soon since I'm engaging an interior designer to make my space livable with the new piano since it definitely won't fit in the currently allocated location. About 4-6 weeks, will put up my pics though - maybe after Bulgaria though wink


You can always do before and after pics. The before pic would satisfy our visual lust to see your new N1X immediately, while the after pic would provide a nice contrast displaying the new home you made for the N1X.

Just a thought. wink

God Bless,
David
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/15/19 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by David B
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Originally Posted by TomLC
Happy you are happy, Tyrone. Looking forward to seeing a pic of the new setup.

Well that's not going to happen that soon since I'm engaging an interior designer to make my space livable with the new piano since it definitely won't fit in the currently allocated location. About 4-6 weeks, will put up my pics though - maybe after Bulgaria though wink

You can always do before and after pics. The before pic would satisfy our visual lust to see your new N1X immediately, while the after pic would provide a nice contrast displaying the new home you made for the N1X.

Good idea. I think I will do that then!
Posted By: oneilt130

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/15/19 06:59 PM

Congrats on your decision Tyrone!

Ok, who had the 3rd week in May in the pool? smile
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/15/19 08:32 PM

Prtcy64 just joined the club according to the prices thread smile
Posted By: percy64

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/15/19 10:24 PM

Should turn up tomorrow but I won't have much time until the weekend
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/15/19 11:05 PM

Originally Posted by percy64
Should turn up tomorrow but I won't have much time until the weekend


Unless you're not home, I predict you'll miss a meal or some sleep to find a little time.

I was very intemperate the first night I had my N1X (and the second and third night). grin

Congrats on the purchase.

God Bless,
David
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/15/19 11:18 PM

Originally Posted by newer player
@CyberGene - Now that you have settled in with the N1X, it would be interesting for you to connect Garritan CFX for an evening and hear your quick opinion comparing N1X on playability, sound, general enjoyment, and whatever else you note.

I received a mail from Philippe from Pianoteq earlier today informing me there’s a new version of Pianoteq that I might like. And you asked me to test Garritan CFX so I decided to briefly test both with the N1X.

First Pianoteq, it’s definitely an improvement from what I remember. I think I like the Bechstein DG the most. But I still hear some nasal character in the muddle. I’ll have to test more though, don’t want to bash on Pianoteq without more thorough testing.

Garritan CFX. Hmm, first impression after the long break is it’s so sibilant. I just can’t believe I’ve managed to tolerate this noisy hiss and sibilance before (but I used HD650 before and now it is the HD595 that are bright so the certainly make things worse). Second impression is the lush reverberation I used to like is just too much and smearing things. Needs getting used to and I think I prefer less reverb now. Otherwise a nice timbre and a playable piano. But that noise frown Switched to the N1X binaural and it’s so clean and nice. It’s the best of the three pianos. I don’t see myself returning to VST-s soon.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/15/19 11:50 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Tyrone, with your formidable memory you seem to be the best one to maintain our N1X adoption statistics smile
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Tyrone, with your formidable memory you seem to be the best one to maintain our N1X adoption statistics smile
We have our very own piano Google!
LOL. Euler1707, CyberGene, pianokat123, J5on, Amy C, Bro', jgbs, Tyrone Slothrop, David B, Chrispy, Tyrone Slothrop. Who did I leave off?
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Prtcy64 just joined the club according to the prices thread smile
Originally Posted by percy64
Should turn up tomorrow but I won't have much time until the weekend

I counted myself twice (obviously I was so excited, I thought I had two new pianos and not just one). No matter, the club rolls needs an update already: Euler1707, CyberGene, pianokat123, J5on, Amy C, Bro', jgbs, Tyrone Slothrop, David B, Chrispy, percy64

Congrats percy64! I'm impressed you just bought it and are already getting it delivered, while mine is going to take another week to bring it all of 20 miles. Haha.

Originally Posted by David B
Originally Posted by percy64
Should turn up tomorrow but I won't have much time until the weekend
Unless you're not home, I predict you'll miss a meal or some sleep to find a little time.

I was very intemperate the first night I had my N1X (and the second and third night). grin

Oh my. In my case, I already hardly sleep as it is. I'll probably need to impose some rules on myself smile

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Garritan CFX. Hmm, first impression after the long break is it’s so sibilant. I just can’t believe I’ve managed to tolerate this noisy hiss and sibilance before (but I used HD650 before and now it is the HD595 that are bright so the certainly make things worse). Second impression is the lush reverberation I used to like is just too much and smearing things. Needs getting used to and I think I prefer less reverb now. Otherwise a nice timbre and a playable piano. But that noise frown Switched to the N1X binaural and it’s so clean and nice. It’s the best of the three pianos. I don’t see myself returning to VST-s soon.

This is one of the things I really liked about the N1X without thinking of a word for it: sibilance. Thank you for that word. I played on the N1X yesterday before I went to the other store to play on the NV10, and that was exactly the character I noticed. The contrast was almost jarring. The N1X sounded so clean with headphones. Admittedly though, I was simply not used half the time to the pedal 'whooshing' of the NV10 (although I finally figured out how to turn that off), but even with stuff like that off, the N1X sounded more clean "out of the box". The only thing I had to do in the store was to turn down brilliance, and then it was perfect for me.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/15/19 11:53 PM

CyberGene, did you play the VSTs through the on-board speakers as well? If so, how did they sound? Do you believe the multi-channel system works well with stereo inputs, etc..?
Posted By: HwyStar

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/16/19 12:35 AM

I know that using piano weights to measure the down weight of middle "C" is not the perfect way to test a DP, for down-weight (inertia), but would any of you have a set to measure middle-C with? Fazioli 52, 54, 56, 58, 60, ouch 62, OMG 64, use your elbows 66...

I understand the differences between AP's and DP's but since the hybrids are using actual keybeds it is a little bit more accurate than DP keyboards. I am betting the N1X is probably at 60 grams. I do not remember what the NV10's came in at.

Remember how Hugh made the comment about the workout? I have my concerns since I do have some arthritis in both my hands. Too many broken guitars on stage. smile
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/16/19 12:49 AM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

This is one of the things I really liked about the N1X without thinking of a word for it: sibilance. Thank you for that word.


That is a good word. The meaning is clear from the context, but I still looked it up. Thanks, CyberGene. You've added to my vocab. thumb
Posted By: newer player

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/16/19 02:26 AM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
I received a mail from Philippe from Pianoteq earlier today informing me there’s a new version of Pianoteq that I might like. And you asked me to test Garritan CFX so I decided to briefly test both with the N1X.

First Pianoteq, it’s definitely an improvement from what I remember. I think I like the Bechstein DG the most. But I still hear some nasal character in the muddle. I’ll have to test more though, don’t want to bash on Pianoteq without more thorough testing.

Garritan CFX. Hmm, first impression after the long break is it’s so sibilant. I just can’t believe I’ve managed to tolerate this noisy hiss and sibilance before (but I used HD650 before and now it is the HD595 that are bright so the certainly make things worse). Second impression is the lush reverberation I used to like is just too much and smearing things. Needs getting used to and I think I prefer less reverb now. Otherwise a nice timbre and a playable piano. But that noise frown Switched to the N1X binaural and it’s so clean and nice. It’s the best of the three pianos. I don’t see myself returning to VST-s soon.

CyberGene - thank you so much for taking the time to test both Garritan CFX and the updated PianoTeq.

I was hoping the N1X's action and integrated interface would propel the VSTs to new heights. Perhaps fiddling with the velocity curves might help a bit.

It is nice to see that Yamaha has improved its sound system enough to ignore the VST options. That gives you more time to focus on playing.

And without continuous VST purchases, hybrid pianos become a more affordable stand-alone investment.
Posted By: AlexBltn

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/16/19 07:30 AM

Did anybody compare Yamaha's Binaural sound between N1X and CLP-645 or P-515? Are they different things, or comparable in their quality?

Originally Posted by newer player
It is nice to see that Yamaha has improved its sound system enough to ignore the VST options. That gives you more time to focus on playing. And without continuous VST purchases, hybrid pianos become a more affordable stand-alone investment.

+1. This is good news. Finally no need that mess with VST's.
Posted By: Animisha

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/16/19 08:18 AM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
[quote=Tyrone Slothrop] Well I'm quite determined to not get the same one for her for our Amsterdam flat since I think buy two identical pianos is stupid (which is why we had an FP30 in DC but have an ES110 in Amsterdam), so it may just be that I could end up buying an NV10 after all.

I have heard there is a Roland with a terrific app... just rumours... but it might interest you for your Amsterdam flat? cool
Posted By: percy64

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/16/19 08:48 AM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
[
Congrats percy64! I'm impressed you just bought it and are already getting it delivered, while mine is going to take another week to bring it all of 20 miles. Haha.


In fact I ordered it about 4 weeks ago. I just missed getting one they had in stock so have had to wait for another batch to arrive in UK. However I think the waiting and anticipation just builds the excitement so you get so much more enjoyment if you have to wait a short period smile
Posted By: percy64

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/16/19 08:52 AM

Originally Posted by David B


Unless you're not home, I predict you'll miss a meal or some sleep to find a little time.

I was very intemperate the first night I had my N1X (and the second and third night). grin

Congrats on the purchase.

God Bless,
David

Ha - I've been playing the old Clavinova (CLP-155) almost exclusively for a long time. That has such a light touch that I expect to have a few issues playing the N1X - I doubt if I have the stamina to manage more than a hour or so at the moment.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/16/19 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by AlexBltn
Originally Posted by newer player
It is nice to see that Yamaha has improved its sound system enough to ignore the VST options. That gives you more time to focus on playing. And without continuous VST purchases, hybrid pianos become a more affordable stand-alone investment.

+1. This is good news. Finally no need that mess with VST's.

Well, that’s how I feel. Other people might still prefer VST-s. Don’t take my word for granted smile
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/16/19 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by David B
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

This is one of the things I really liked about the N1X without thinking of a word for it: sibilance. Thank you for that word.


That is a good word. The meaning is clear from the context, but I still looked it up. Thanks, CyberGene. You've added to my vocab. thumb


Credit goes to head-if forums (and my past obsession with headphones which is now luckily gone smile ). The term “sibilant” in the context of headphones and sound has a rather negative connotation and refers to non-neutral coloration that seems to accent on a particular part of the highs that is perceived as a hissing sound. It comes from the sibilant consonants of “s” and “sh”. There’s this hissing, or sibilance, in Garritan CFX which has been previously discussed and is even more pronounced through HD595-s. Which is why I prefer HD650-s. On the other hand there’s absolutely no sibilance with either of these headphones and N1X which is very clean of noises and other artifacts.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/16/19 09:58 PM

Trying to find a temporary place for N1X until interior designer can rejigger my flat. I took measurements in the store but now I'm questioning one of the them.

Could someone measure the depth of the unit from the back to the front edge of the keyboard for me? While in the store, I measured and noted down a depth of 61 cm from front to back, but now I'm wondering if I left out the keyboard and my measurement was only the upper cabinet.
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/16/19 10:17 PM

24.25" or ~62 cm


Edited to readjust measurement.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/16/19 11:22 PM

Originally Posted by David B
24.25" or ~62 cm


Edited to readjust measurement.

Thanks David! I guess I did include the keyboard after all. smile
Posted By: Amy C

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/16/19 11:29 PM

YESSS Tyrone! One of us! One of us! grin grin grin

The more I play it the more I love it. Practicing every day has been such a joy! I spent some time on a Steinway Grand today, and every piece I learned this week on the Yamaha transferred over perfectly. It felt like a seamless transition, thanks to the N1X action. For me, at least, because I am jumping between the Yamaha and Steinway/Bosendorfer/Chickering grands a few times a week, I couldn't be happier.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/16/19 11:55 PM

Originally Posted by Animisha
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
[quote=Tyrone Slothrop] Well I'm quite determined to not get the same one for her for our Amsterdam flat since I think buy two identical pianos is stupid (which is why we had an FP30 in DC but have an ES110 in Amsterdam), so it may just be that I could end up buying an NV10 after all.

I have heard there is a Roland with a terrific app... just rumours... but it might interest you for your Amsterdam flat? cool

Good point! Although the LX708 is almost as expensive as the N1X. confused LOL But she might like the Piano Every Day app, that's true enough. grin

Originally Posted by Amy C
YESSS Tyrone! One of us! One of us! grin grin grin

The more I play it the more I love it. Practicing every day has been such a joy! I spent some time on a Steinway Grand today, and every piece I learned this week on the Yamaha transferred over perfectly. It felt like a seamless transition, thanks to the N1X action. For me, at least, because I am jumping between the Yamaha and Steinway/Bosendorfer/Chickering grands a few times a week, I couldn't be happier.

That's great to know!
Posted By: percy64

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/17/19 08:34 AM

Well - the sound is as glorious as I had remembered and nice to have it in the quite of my own room rather than the noise of the piano showroom. As expected it is going to take me a while to get used to the action - I feel as if my playing has taken a step backwards as it is so long since I have played a Grand Piano regularly. But even now I find the intricate parts of the music (e.g. trills) so much easier
Posted By: johnstaf

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/17/19 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Good point! Although the LX708 is almost as expensive as the N1X. confused LOL But she might like the Piano Every Day app, that's true enough. grin

[quote=Amy C]YESSS Tyrone! One of us! One of us! grin grin grin
!


In Europe, it's closer to half the price. It's a cost-effective way to get Brownie points!
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/17/19 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Good point! Although the LX708 is almost as expensive as the N1X. confused LOL But she might like the Piano Every Day app, that's true enough. grin

[quote=Amy C]YESSS Tyrone! One of us! One of us! grin grin grin
!


In Europe, it's closer to half the price. It's a good way to get cost-effective Brownie points!

Great point! I wouldn't be buying it in US, I'd be buying in Amsterdam.

Well, we'll see if I can survive PhilipInChina's piano party without someone letting slip to my wife that I bought an N1X for myself, to see if those cost-effective Brownie points will be needed! shocked wink laugh
Posted By: johnstaf

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/17/19 11:27 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Well, we'll see if I can survive PhilipInChina's piano party without someone letting slip to my wife that I bought an N1X for myself, to see if those cost-effective Brownie points will be needed! shocked wink laugh


That could have been a close one! I can keep my mouth shut. grin
Posted By: percy64

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/18/19 08:47 AM

The N1X really is very fussy about headphones. I have a decent pair of AKG but when I try those the sound is really unbelievably poor - no base at all and very thin mid range even at full gain. My Audio technicas sound better but too quite. Those are both good headphones that work well with the old clavinova and every other source I have used them with.

I bought a pair of Yamaha HPH-150 phones with the piano and at least they match. The sound is pretty good but a bit sibilant when used with the already bright binaural CFX sound. Looks as if I am going to have to go shopping for another pair, but it will be tricky to test them out and risky to buy without trying them in combination with the N1X itself.

Still I am loving the piano itself - already my playing is sounding better.
Posted By: percy64

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/18/19 09:02 AM

Originally Posted by percy64
The N1X really is very fussy about headphones. I have a decent pair of AKG but when I try those the sound is really unbelievably poor - no base at all and very thin mid range even at full gain..

In fact the AKG seemed to have a problem with the lead and switching that improved it a lot - now better than the HPH-150 but not perfect.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/18/19 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by percy64
Originally Posted by percy64
The N1X really is very fussy about headphones. I have a decent pair of AKG but when I try those the sound is really unbelievably poor - no base at all and very thin mid range even at full gain..

In fact the AKG seemed to have a problem with the lead and switching that improved it a lot - now better than the HPH-150 but not perfect.

By 'lead,' do you mean the entire headphone cable? Because that's surprising that the cable would have made a difference. Did you just become a headphones audiophile while we weren't looking? (ok, that was a joke since this forum is so anti-audiophile laugh )
Posted By: percy64

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/18/19 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
[By 'lead,' do you mean the entire headphone cable? Because that's surprising that the cable would have made a difference. Did you just become a headphones audiophile while we weren't looking? (ok, that was a joke since this forum is so anti-audiophile laugh )

In fact it was the adaptor to convert from 3.5mm to 1/4" that must have been making a bad connection - using a different one sorted it. It might have been sending the right channel to both ears that would account for the lack of bass.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/18/19 05:05 PM

One time, I brought back several of the same model headphones from work to test out on my CP50. None of them sounded the same, in quality or volume. That was quite surprising to me. It's possible that one or more were blown out at some point, but they all functioned well independently, but required drastically different volume/EQ settings from the instrument.
Posted By: nax

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/19/19 10:25 AM

I ordered a N1X after comparing the N1X and NV10 at a local store. I liked both action and the sound better on the N1X.

Did anyone pay attention to the smell right after the delivery?
The N1X will be placed close to my bed, but if it smells a lot it might be better to set it up in another room first.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/19/19 10:34 AM

Congrats and welcome to the club.

I still sense some processed wood smell from time to time but it’s kind of pleasant to me smile
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/19/19 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by nax
I liked both action and the sound better on the N1X.

Same. Side by side, I was actually shocked how much I preferred the sound of the N1X. Before my A-B comparison, I thought both would be comparable with pluses and minuses, with regard to sound. But it turned out I was wrong and it wasn't a toss up after all. For me, the N1X sound was clearly superior using headphones.

Didn't you say something like that yourself CyberGene after listening to the CA96 or 98?

However, with respect to action, it was comparable for me. I guess I'm just not an advanced enough pianist to tell which action is better.

I did note that for me, the pedal behavior on the N1X was vastly superior than the NV10. I found that to half-pedal on the NV10 took far greater precision/fine motor control in my right foot than I possess. It seems the half-pedal point was precisely at one point in the pedal travel, while the N1X pedal was more forgiving.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/19/19 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Didn't you say something like that yourself CyberGene after listening to the CA96 or 98?

After I returned the NU1X and wondered between N1X and NV10 and no way to test either of them, the closest I get to the sound of NV10 was to play a CA78, which according to James is exactly the same sound engine. It was not the first time I played it but was the first time after I had played the NU1X for a month. It was a shocking difference to me and I was convinced I like the CFX sound much more than the SK-EX rendering engine.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/19/19 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Didn't you say something like that yourself CyberGene after listening to the CA96 or 98?

After I returned the NU1X and wondered between N1X and NV10 and no way to test either of them, the closest I get to the sound of NV10 was to play a CA78, which according to James is exactly the same sound engine. It was not the first time I played it but was the first time after I had played the NU1X for a month. It was a shocking difference to me and I was convinced I like the CFX sound much more than the SK-EX rendering engine.

BTW, I don't know if anyone else who had a chance to try the NV10 itself (and not the CA series) and compare it directly to the N1X noticed this, but the NV10 does have what appears to be a better set of speakers than the N1X. They seemed to be more powerful, possibly with greater dynamic range. (Unfortunately, I was running short on time, so I didn't have the chance to really shake this aspect out.) However, for me, the speakers reproduce their audio signal input. And the audio signal input into the N1X speakers was clearly better to my ears than that going into the NV10 speakers, so the fact the speakers seemed better just didn't move the needle much for me, especially as I really can't use speakers at the 2-4am that I typically play my piano. If I had been compare the same VST being played back through those speakers though, say Pianoteq, I might have found the NV10 had a better sound through speakers. This is purely speculation however as I haven't tried Pianoteq, or any VST for that matter, through either the N1X or NV10's speakers.
Posted By: nax

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/19/19 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Congrats and welcome to the club.

I still sense some processed wood smell from time to time but it’s kind of pleasant to me smile


Thanks for the feedback. As long as the smell is not too artificial, I will not mind it too much.

About the NV10 comparison. Regarding the action it is probably mostly preference as both are good.
I played the NV10 at two different stores. At the first one the higher keys sounded too loud, almost distorted via the speakers. At the second store, however, it was basically the opposite. Very muffled like when you have a cold and your ear canal is blocked. Maybe it saves the old settings and if a lot of people fiddle with them, it can be difficult to get back to the default settings. Maybe it is also less consistent between individual instruments.
Still I liked the N1X better in both cases (and also better than the sound of the N3X).
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/19/19 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by nax
Still I liked the N1X better in both cases (and also better than the sound of the N3X).

Now that is interesting since the N3X has the same sound generation as the N1X but a soundboard and supposedly better speakers. The piano store where I bought my N1X had an N3X and I did try it a bit, but couldn't turn the volume up so high (the kiddies showed up after school to pound on piano keyboards with their parents... LOL) and so I didn't get a proper test. However I did sense that when not using headphones, the sound was fuller and perhaps more "natural" on the N3X. This was just an impression though since it was obtained through trying the N3X for maybe only about 3 minutes total just to see if there was any reason at all for me to consider the N3X (my use-case being 95% headphone use), and there was not.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/19/19 12:07 PM

I’m also curious about how Pianoteq sounds through the N1X’s speakers and how it compares to the on-board (CFX) sound.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/19/19 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by nax
At the first one the higher keys sounded too loud, almost distorted via the speakers.


When that happens, I would bet that the "Wall EQ" function was turned on. What I can see is that it really boosts the treble output unrealistically (plus the nv10 doesn't have wall-facing speakers, so it's a bit odd why they're would be a wall EQ control).

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Now that is interesting since the N3X has the same sound generation as the N1X but a soundboard and supposedly better speakers.


This is actually a common refrain that's been applied to the original N1/N2/N3 effort nearly a decade. Because the n1 and particularly n2 have forward facing speakers (or lid positions), many have stated that the n2 sounds better for playing at the pianist position, whereas the n3 sounds (much) better in a larger room or when heard by the audience. Kind of the same effect as playing an upright versus grand (the bench is the "worst seat in the house").
Posted By: nax

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/19/19 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by Gombessa

This is actually a common refrain that's been applied to the original N1/N2/N3 effort nearly a decade. Because the n1 and particularly n2 have forward facing speakers (or lid positions), many have stated that the n2 sounds better for playing at the pianist position, whereas the n3 sounds (much) better in a larger room or when heard by the audience. Kind of the same effect as playing an upright versus grand (the bench is the "worst seat in the house").


This explains it well. The N3X really sounded less direct/clear as if the sound is directed somewhere else, which it probably is considering the open lid and the position of the spreakers.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/19/19 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14
I’m also curious about how Pianoteq sounds through the N1X’s speakers and how it compares to the on-board (CFX) sound.

I will be certainly trying this at some point when I get my N1X. But David B already can try this for us, if he hasn't already done that, since he has Pianoteq too.
Posted By: Peter 512

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/19/19 01:32 PM

I am planning to upgrade to the N1X, but little bit concerned if it can be installed at my place, e.g. I have some tight corners to get into my piano room.

Is it possible to transport the main unit upright in order to get around a tight corner? the manual advises to transport the instrument horizontally.

also, is it necessary to leave the instrument 15 cm away from the wall?
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/19/19 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by Peter 512
I am planning to upgrade to the N1X, but little bit concerned if it can be installed at my place, e.g. I have some tight corners to get into my piano room.

Is it possible to transport the main unit upright in order to get around a tight corner? the manual advises to transport the instrument horizontally.

Yes, you can! I think David B made pictures of his own N1X packages stored vertically in the store where he bought it. Technically speaking it’s a grand piano action which is secured firmly and won’t get affected by whatever orientation it’s put.
Posted By: JJHLH

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/19/19 03:57 PM

Originally Posted by nax
Still I liked the N1X better in both cases (and also better than the sound of the N3X).


Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
This was just an impression though since it was obtained through trying the N3X for maybe only about 3 minutes total just to see if there was any reason at all for me to consider the N3X (my use-case being 95% headphone use), and there was not.

Did you all notice much difference in the feel of the keytops between the N1X and N3X?
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/19/19 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by JJHLH
Originally Posted by nax
Still I liked the N1X better in both cases (and also better than the sound of the N3X).


Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
This was just an impression though since it was obtained through trying the N3X for maybe only about 3 minutes total just to see if there was any reason at all for me to consider the N3X (my use-case being 95% headphone use), and there was not.

Did you all notice much difference in the feel of the keytops between the N1X and N3X?

I really wanted to. I thought I wanted the Ivorite keytops. But when I played them both, I really didn't feel much of a practical difference. It was possible that the Ivorite on the N3X was less slick than the acrylic resin on the N1X, but if so, it was still pretty close.

Again, I don't want to read too much into a 3-min test of the N3X. When I wasn't wow'ed by the sound w/o headphones on the N3X, I was pretty much done.

BTW, the store hadn't upgraded the N3X's TRS system and it could barely be felt in the keys. Really shocked that Yamaha didn't catch this issue in their QA/QC. I told the salesperson they should have their Yamaha technician upgrade their floor model with the board with the TRS fixed.
Posted By: nax

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/19/19 04:11 PM

I did not pay enough attention to the keytops to notice a difference between N1X and N3X. But compared to the NV10 I noticed a difference and I liked the yamaha better as the NV10 somehow felt more slippery to me. But that is probably just personal preference. A friend who tested it in the same store preferred the NV10 action+keytops.
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/19/19 04:15 PM

Originally Posted by nax
I ordered a N1X after comparing the N1X and NV10 at a local store. I liked both action and the sound better on the N1X.



thumb


Quote
Did anyone pay attention to the smell right after the delivery?
The N1X will be placed close to my bed, but if it smells a lot it might be better to set it up in another room first.


Currently, if I place my nose close to mine it smells like Meguiars Wax, which I think has a lovely smell. The N1X did have some type of industrial smell when I first received it, but it didn't bother me. I don't remember how long the smell lasted.

God Bless,
David
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/19/19 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by David B
Currently, if I place my nose close to mine it smells like Meguiars Wax, which I think has a lovely smell. The N1X did have some type of industrial smell when I first received it, but it didn't bother me. I don't remember how long the smell lasted.

God Bless,
David

All of your talk about Meguiars Wax is making me want to order some and try it when my piano arrives this week. But I've never as much waxed a car and don't know how to do it. Is there a website or something about what to do with the wax once you have it?

BTW, I could care less how shiny the piano is. I'm sure I will make it un-shiny in short order. LOL. I just hate how much dust it seems to suck up. They look like real dust magnets. If waxing is too complicated, I might also consider some antistatic spray too.
Posted By: nax

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/19/19 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by David B

Currently, if I place my nose close to mine it smells like Meguiars Wax, which I think has a lovely smell. The N1X did have some type of industrial smell when I first received it, but it didn't bother me. I don't remember how long the smell lasted.

Thanks for sharing your experience. I would not mind at all if it was placed in the basement. wink
But the optimal position is only 1-2m from my bed, so I thought it could be an issue the first few days/weeks.
Posted By: David B

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/19/19 07:44 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

All of your talk about Meguiars Wax is making me want to order some and try it when my piano arrives this week. But I've never as much waxed a car and don't know how to do it. Is there a website or something about what to do with the wax once you have it.


I've been real happy with the Meguiars Wax (I use their "Ultimate" liquid synthetic wax) on my cars and therefore, that's what I used on my piano. It smells so nice. smile

Get some good microfiber cloths. Be careful to avoid ones with large boarders around them because that can mar the finish. On the piano I used the microfiber cloths for both application and removal. The normal applicator pad that I use on my cars seemed a little too abrasive for the high polish finish on the N1X. It was probably an unnecessary precaution on my part. There are some nice videos on the Meguiar's website that demonstrate how to use their products.

Dust removal and care has been easier after the wax application. My microfiber dusting cloth glides smoothly over the piano removing the smaller amount of dust that collects. The piano now smells good, looks good, and feels good to the touch.

God Bless,
David
Posted By: Hecarim

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/19/19 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by Peter 512


also, is it necessary to leave the instrument 15 cm away from the wall?


Is this true? I assumed 3-4 cm to allow enough space for the plug, but 15?
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On - 05/19/19 07:57 PM

Originally Posted by Hecarim
Originally Posted by Peter 512
also, is it necessary to leave the instrument 15 cm away from the wall?
Is this true? I assumed 3-4 cm to allow enough space for the plug, but 15?

From p.7 of the N1X Owner's Manual:
Quote
Place the instrument away from the wall by at least 15 cm to optimize and enhance the sound effect. If you find the instrument shaky or unstable after installing, insert the included felt strips. For details, refer to the instructions supplied with the felt strips.
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