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P-515 locked up completely

Posted By: sullivang

P-515 locked up completely - 03/07/19 03:17 AM

My P-515 had some type of a crash. I was playing, listening with external monitors, when all of a sudden both speakers started making a loud clicking sound. The panel was unresponsive, however I was able to turn it off with the power button, BUT, that still didn't stop the noise - I had to turn off the power source to stop the noise.

It was plugged into a computer via USB at the time,but I was using the on-board sounds. I did try removing the USB cable first - that didn't help.

Greg
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: P-515 locked up completely - 03/07/19 04:07 AM

You may have unlocked an hidden on-board sound. Or does the manual of the P515 say that "the instrument produces loud clicking sounds and becomes unresponsive -> this is normal, but only very seldom occurs." After all, this is what the NU1x manual says about the loud note wink
Posted By: sullivang

Re: P-515 locked up completely - 03/07/19 05:17 AM

Snortle. (that's a combined snort & chortle)

Greg
Posted By: peterws

Re: P-515 locked up completely - 03/07/19 06:30 AM

I think we expect too much from our pianos. They're only human . . . they're only human after all. Don't lay the blame on them . . . .
Posted By: lophiomys

Re: P-515 locked up completely - 03/07/19 08:17 AM

Now it is time to pray for a software update and better management of software development at Yamaha.
Lets see, if the CP88 will do this once live on stage? wink

sullivang,
what did Yamaha Support have to say about this fault?
Posted By: JoeT

Re: P-515 locked up completely - 03/07/19 08:24 AM

Originally Posted by lophiomys
Now it is time to pray for a software update and better management of software development at Yamaha.

How is a software update going to fix a hardware fault?
Posted By: lophiomys

Re: P-515 locked up completely - 03/07/19 08:26 AM

How do you know it is a hardware fault?
Posted By: JoeT

Re: P-515 locked up completely - 03/07/19 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by lophiomys
How do you know it is a hardware fault?

Because it looks like one. A power surge resulting in a PSU fault is the most probable scenario leading to these symptoms.
Posted By: lophiomys

Re: P-515 locked up completely - 03/07/19 08:41 AM

How often have you seen such "power surge with PSU fault" happen?
In this case, the device would have gone dark with PSU failure following a power surge, and it would not have continued to make noise until switched off. The computer nearby would also have been affected by a power surge of that order of magnitude, at least the USB port burned...
Posted By: JoeT

Re: P-515 locked up completely - 03/07/19 09:02 AM

The symptoms match exactly what to expect from the 16 V DC going off limits: micro-controllers locking up, (pre-)amplifiers starting to make noises. An incandescent lit display might have flashed as well.

People overestimate the power of what firmware can do quite a lot it seems.

Originally Posted by lophiomys
How often have you seen such "power surge with PSU fault" happen? In this case, the device would have gone dark with PSU failure following a power surge, and it would not have continued to make noise until switched off. The computer nearby would also have been affected by a power surge of that order of magnitude, at least the USB port burned...

A computer PSU is a bit more sophisticated. It has continuous output voltage monitoring and shuts off immediately, if these go off limits. A 400 W PSU can stand a surge much better than a simple 40 W brick or a wall-wart.
Posted By: lophiomys

Re: P-515 locked up completely - 03/07/19 09:39 AM

So, what you are describing is:

- crappy surge protecting in the PSU of a 1500.- USD digital piano
- missing input voltage monitoring inside the digital piano
...
From the end customers view, that is about the same as poorly developed firmware / software.

Shamed be he who thinks evil of it. wink
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: P-515 locked up completely - 03/07/19 09:48 AM

We used to have armchair quarterbacks.
We now have web surfing repair technicians.
Posted By: JoeT

Re: P-515 locked up completely - 03/07/19 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by lophiomys
- crappy surge protecting in the PSU of a 1500.- USD digital piano

When you get an external PSU brick like the Yamaha PA-300C, you know that costs have been cut.

Just look at the after-market pricing:

https://www.thomann.de/intl/yamaha_pa300.htm

That's for a $10 part made in China.

Quote
- missing input voltage monitoring inside the digital piano

That needs to be on the PSU. There is not much a DC device can do about receiving the wrong voltage.
Posted By: sullivang

Re: P-515 locked up completely - 03/07/19 11:40 AM

Not sure whether it was a surge or not - I definitely didn't notice the room lights dim though. Re power management, there would of course be internal regulators creating stable low voltage supplies, and I tend to think that proper design would at the very least cause the processor(s) to cleanly reset/restart if the main internal supply voltages went under voltage momentarily.

Greg.
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: P-515 locked up completely - 03/07/19 12:59 PM

It is not uncommon to find computers with medium/high-end components powered by a low-quality PSU. The issue is that a quality PSU may cost 10x more than a cheap version that is advertised as having an equivalent efficiency and power rating. Given that a DP has low power requirements and demands a stable power load, I seriously doubt that a DP manufacturer would ever decide to install a high-quality PSU and reduce its profit margin. Unfortunately, I do not remember anyone that has opened up a top-tier digital piano to be surprised by the high-quality of its capacitors and other components...
Posted By: dmd

Re: P-515 locked up completely - 03/07/19 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by lophiomys
sullivang,
what did Yamaha Support have to say about this fault?



I did not see any answer to this.
Posted By: Jitin

Re: P-515 locked up completely - 03/07/19 02:14 PM

i belive there is a way to reset the piano to factory default. You have to hold the last key when the piano is shutoff, then while holding turn on the piano, and let the key go after the screen say factory reset complete and it comes to the normal view
Posted By: JohnSprung

Re: P-515 locked up completely - 03/07/19 03:30 PM


At this point we don't know if a factory reset will help, or if this is a case of fried hardware.....
Posted By: jamiecw

Re: P-515 locked up completely - 03/07/19 05:25 PM

Originally Posted by JohnSprung

At this point we don't know if a factory reset will help, or if this is a case of fried hardware.....


I'd be surprised if there is anything fried assuming a restart brought the DP back to life...I'd like to think that if that was not the case the OP would have said the DP locked up and it never came back on ever again! :-)
Posted By: sullivang

Re: P-515 locked up completely - 03/07/19 05:34 PM

I've reported it to Yamaha - will let you know what transpires.

And of course it came back to life. Again - I had to remove external power to reset it. (I did that by pulling out the plug from the back of the unit, and plugging it back in again. That was simply because I was too lazy to work out which AC outlet it was plugged in to)

Greg.
Posted By: toddy

Re: P-515 locked up completely - 03/07/19 08:02 PM

Originally Posted by Jitin
i belive there is a way to reset the piano to factory default. You have to hold the last key when the piano is shutoff, then while holding turn on the piano, and let the key go after the screen say factory reset complete and it comes to the normal view


What is 'the last key'?
Posted By: ee375

Re: P-515 locked up completely - 03/07/19 08:03 PM

Quote
I had to remove external power to reset it

That's because the power button doesn't really switch the power. It sends a signal to the processor to turn on power to the rest of the electronics. The processor is always powered unless you pull the plug. In order to totally reset the processor you have to remove the power, wait several seconds for the power supply capacitor voltages to decay and then reapply power.

If this doesn't fix the problem (after several tries), there is likely an electronics failure.

If it fixes the problem, there may have been a powerline glitch that sent the code into space or there is a software bug that occasionally shows up. Most good code should be able to recover from this on its own - but not always.
Posted By: Jitin

Re: P-515 locked up completely - 03/07/19 08:28 PM

Originally Posted by toddy
Originally Posted by Jitin
i belive there is a way to reset the piano to factory default. You have to hold the last key when the piano is shutoff, then while holding turn on the piano, and let the key go after the screen say factory reset complete and it comes to the normal view


What is 'the last key'?

The last key is the right most white key on the piano
Posted By: ee375

Re: P-515 locked up completely - 03/07/19 09:36 PM

I must amend my comments about resetting the processor by pulling the plug. I am totally unfamiliiar with the P-515 but some electronics use a battery (typically a coin cell) to keep the processor powered when the AC is removed. If that is the case you must unplug AND remove the battery.
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: P-515 locked up completely - 03/20/19 01:42 PM

I thought my wife invented that word long ago.
Originally Posted by sullivang
Snortle. (that's a combined snort & chortle)
I've never heard anyone else use it ... until now. smile
Posted By: sullivang

Re: P-515 locked up completely - 03/21/19 12:55 AM

Chortle. πŸ˜ƒ

This problem hasn't occurred again yet.

Greg
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: P-515 locked up completely - 03/21/19 04:42 AM

Originally Posted by sullivang
Chortle. πŸ˜ƒ

This problem hasn't occurred again yet.

Greg

β€œAnd hast thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!”
He chortled in his joy.

- Lewis Carroll, Jabberwocky (1871)
Posted By: peterws

Re: P-515 locked up completely - 03/21/19 06:51 AM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by sullivang
Chortle. πŸ˜ƒ

This problem hasn't occurred again yet.

Greg

β€œAnd hast thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!”
He chortled in his joy.

- Lewis Carroll, Jabberwocky (1871)


To be sung, standing on one's head, to the tune of "What shall we do with the drunken sailor"
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