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I know it sounds like a total waste of time but I had an hour or two today which I decided to spend by listening to YouTube or official website demos of all the latest digital pianos. I've played most of them or listened to demos many times in the past so this isn't something new. Anyway.

I simply couldn't like any of them frown To put it mildly.

Newest LX-series: thin, boxed, mono-like sound that is disguised by very good resonances and stuff but the core part is meh.
Previous LX-series: even worse!
Latest Yamaha pianos: sharp and rough.
Kawai Rendering: dull, boring, sterile, way too clean (regardless of characters/modes)
Dexibell: probably the worst of them all. Maybe not suitable for listening with headphones but I barely managed to withstand listening to any of the latest platinum extended sounds: distant, mono-like, over-processed, nasal
Casio: "plink-plonk"
Nord: actually the only ones I kind of liked, however on many of the demos it seems like the dynamic curves or velocity mappings might not be well made since many players produced what appeared to be too high velocities compared to the context of say softer passage, might be wrong, need to test.

(Haven't listened to any Korg and Kurzweil though)

I've also listened to demos of a few sample-based VST-s such as Ivory, CFX, Vintage D, etc. and they all sounded fabulous. I know the problem with them is playability and I personally have managed to connect (and love) CFX only.
-----
But started wondering: is this a burnout that I am having? Am I too picky? Becoming grumpy old man? smile What do you think?
For me there also never was a "omg, this is it!!!!" moment, and I am testing since a few months. I had the fear that it was about me and not the DPs itself.

Then I sat in front of a Steinway Grand (I misread the price, read €8000 instead of €80000). It was not about me, there just is no perfect sound I suppose until now. But enough options that are "good/good enough", so I certainly dont HATE them smile
There is such a thing as having too much choice.
Originally Posted by CyberGene

I've also listened to demos of a few sample-based VST-s such as Ivory, CFX, Vintage D, etc. and they all sounded fabulous. I know the problem with them is playability and I personally have managed to connect (and love) CFX only.


You mentioned the Vintage D.
Did you try the Grandeur? I find it much more playable and velocity controllable than the Vintage D. It is nearly perfect for me except the well known pedal problem (the same as Vintage D), but it is totally usable for me and lovely to hear.
It's so relative.

I thought I hated digitals until I started shopping for real uprights. To my complete and utter surprise, I found that I hated the uprights more than the digitals. The digital strategy is to track grand pianos, and I got so used to the whole grand piano "experience", and so spoilt, that even real upright pianos don't seem to cut it in comparison.

So many of the uprights felt like they sounded terrible in particular areas of the keyboard and the action felt less expressive. To top it off, I found that some of the things I originally thought were digital sound artifacts or defects actually manifest on the real thing. laugh

It was not something I expected and, obviously, I'm not talking about high-end $$$ uprights here.
Originally Posted by stamkorg
Did you try the Grandeur? I find it much more playable and velocity controllable than the Vintage D. It is nearly perfect for me except the well known pedal problem (the same as Vintage D), but it is totally usable for me and lovely to hear.

I haven’t tried it, nor listened to it but I will definitely do. The problem is I need excellent pedal implementation. I have Vintage D and while it’s the best piano sound to my ears (maybe even better than my favorite CFX) its flawed half-pedal implementation (that I have reported to them) ultimately made me look for other pianos although I’ve used it for some time and to render a few of my recordings.
DPs aren't for listening to. Who in their right mind would record a classical CD of solo piano music using a DP?

They are for playing, for learning, for accompaniment and some are more enjoyable to play than others, and many are more enjoyable to play than a comparably priced upright in good condition never mind your average one in a state of neglect.

My other interest is Hi-Fi and I have some modestly good audiophile gear. Speakers and amplification that can (almost) create the illusion (with eyes closed) that there is a real physical piano in the room costs 4 - 5 times more than the top end DPs. And people wonder why an MDF box full of consumer electronics and car speakers cannot come close to recreating the same Grand Piano experience (the V-Grand comes close but at a premium price) ....

If you are looking for a genuine substitute for a Grand Piano, buy a grand piano. There is no substitute.

If you are looking for an affordable and easy to live with instrument that allows you to enjoyably play music written for the piano imo you are spoiled for choice at the moment from R Y K and C.
Originally Posted by DazedAndConfused
If you are looking for a genuine substitute for a Grand Piano, buy a grand piano. There is no substitute.

If you are looking for an affordable and easy to live with instrument that allows you to enjoyably play music written for the piano imo you are spoiled for choice at the moment from R Y K and C.


This.

I've got both. The digital is for gigging, computer input for creating arrangements and composing, and (in my case) rough film-scoring work; and occasionally doing in MIDI what I'm not a good enough player to do in analog.

The grand piano is for playing, rehearsing with my ensemble, and recording.

It'll set you back $5000 to $10,000 for a very good used grand piano. Have a technician check it out before you buy it. Get it revoiced if needed. Why waste your life on indifferently-implemented VSTs and compromise keyboards when the real thing is available?
Originally Posted by CyberGene
its flawed half-pedal implementation (that I have reported to them)


Yes,
I remember you were the first who noticed that.
It's a pity they didn't resolve this problem.
But, to be honest, I can live with it in my everyday practice.

What annoys me is a kind of bug related to the repedalling (also the same thing on the Vintage D). In some cases, an energic repedalling seems to trigger some release samples in an unnatural way. I don't know why but there seems to be a link between the repedalling function and the release samples. I resolved that by simply let the repedalling option off. And even there, I like it very much.
Originally Posted by Markuska
Then I sat in front of a Steinway Grand (I misread the price, read €8000 instead of €80000).


In that case, try a few used grands, and the mid-range makers. You can get some very nice instruments with the decimal point where you want it.... ;-)
Well, YouTube isn’t quite hi-fidelity so I wouldn’t be too harsh based on that.

But yes, nothing beats the sound of a good acoustic grand. wink
YouTube uses AAC which is probably the best lossy compression. Much better than mp3. And even with an audiophile headphone DAC and amplifier and my various headphones (including my favorite HD650) I can’t hear difference between FLAC/WAV and mp3 over 160kbps so the YouTube compression wouldn’t be the one to blame IMO smile

As to real grands. That’s my dream but for the foreseeable future I will be working in our capital, hence can afford to live only in a rather small apartment so a grand piano is absolutely out of the question, even though I have the budget for a baby grand such as a new Kawai/Yamaha frown
Originally Posted by DazedAndConfused
DPs aren't for listening to. Who in their right mind would record a classical CD of solo piano music using a DP?

They are for playing, for learning, for accompaniment and some are more enjoyable to play than others, and many are more enjoyable to play than a comparably priced upright in good condition never mind your average one in a state of neglect.

My other interest is Hi-Fi and I have some modestly good audiophile gear. Speakers and amplification that can (almost) create the illusion (with eyes closed) that there is a real physical piano in the room costs 4 - 5 times more than the top end DPs. And people wonder why an MDF box full of consumer electronics and car speakers cannot come close to recreating the same Grand Piano experience (the V-Grand comes close but at a premium price) ....

If you are looking for a genuine substitute for a Grand Piano, buy a grand piano. There is no substitute.

If you are looking for an affordable and easy to live with instrument that allows you to enjoyably play music written for the piano imo you are spoiled for choice at the moment from R Y K and C.


This is a really good take on the issue I think. In addition DP's are (obviously) digital, not analog, so there it something lost no matter how good your reproduction system and as is wisely noted, DP's don't have high end audio to begin with.

An interesting and related question I'd ask you CyberGene, are there any recordings of a piano you don't hate?
Originally Posted by CyberGene
YouTube uses AAC which is probably the best lossy compression. Much better than mp3. And even with an audiophile headphone DAC and amplifier and my various headphones (including my favorite HD650) I can’t hear difference between FLAC/WAV and mp3 over 160kbps so the YouTube compression wouldn’t be the one to blame IMO smile
I was comparing to live playing through the speakers.

Quote
As to real grands. That’s my dream but for the foreseeable future I will be working in our capital, hence can afford to live only in a rather small apartment so a grand piano is absolutely out of the question, even though I have the budget for a baby grand such as a new Kawai/Yamaha frown
Someday it’ll happen, we all go through seasons smile
Originally Posted by squidbot
An interesting and related question I'd ask you CyberGene, are there any recordings of a piano you don't hate?

As I said I enjoy almost all recordings made with VST-s. The notable exception being Pianoteq that I can’t stand. The problem with VST-s is most of them are not very playable. But I love the playability of Garritan CFX and it’s what I only play at the moment. In a way I’m not complaining since I play a digital sound that I love. What I’m wondering is there’s still no single digital piano that offers this kind of quality in a single integrated package. And so I started thinking maybe I’m wrong and not piano manufacturers?
In addition to Garritan CFX I also like Ravencroft 275 and Bechstein Digital. These three in my opinion have decent sound and are very playable.

In all honesty the latest entry level digital piano models have 20 year old sampling / tone generation tech in them. Intermediate and high end digital pianos have 10 year old tone generation tech in them with a few exceptions. Even when the tech is very sophisticated as in Roland LX-7XX series, sometimes the sound can be perceived to be too artificial. If you like Garritan CFX, then just stick with it and spend more time practicing than trying to find the perfect sound.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Newest LX-series: thin, boxed, mono-like sound that is disguised by very good resonances and stuff but the core part is meh.
Previous LX-series: even worse!

I'm guessing you played lower models? Because LX-708 sounds pretty clean to me with open lid.
Pianoteq. Stop resisting. Salvation is right there.
I agree, i can”t believe how mediocre hardware samples sound.
I gave my new MP11SE a very good work out for a week with it’s internal sounds but althaugh i really dig my purchase i won’t ever use it’s piano sound unless my computer brakes down.
Here what gives me my current piano satisfaction

Garritan CFX is great on all accounts as the best of modern sounding grand piano’s

Walker 1955 has the most haunting resonance and cuts through any mix in the most gorgious way.... rather ‘aged’ Steinway sound ... not tightly tuned.

CinePiano has this fat and bold Steinway sound great for pop/blues/jazz sole lines... some notes with jumpy velocities though...

Art vista Supergrand and My Piano/fluffy audio give this much appreciated ‘different’ sound when i prefer something different.

That’s it for me, bought a lot of stuff i will never use, but that’s because software is relatively cheap and impulse buys are easily made.

But no way i can enjoy those lacking internal hardware piano sounds at the moment.
Originally Posted by Nordomus
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Newest LX-series: thin, boxed, mono-like sound that is disguised by very good resonances and stuff but the core part is meh.
Previous LX-series: even worse!

I'm guessing you played lower models? Because LX-708 sounds pretty clean to me with open lid.


Yes, I've played only previous LX-series (can't remember well, maybe LX17 or 7...). In the very beginning I kind of liked it. Then on a second visit I wasn't impressed and then started disliking it a lot.

As for LX-708, I am speaking entirely based on the YouTube demos, I haven't found a place that has it for testing. I know it's harsh to judge pianos only by YouTube demos but that was the exercise: listen only to demos on YouTube. And let's be honest, this isn't entirely inconsistent with how one will feel when playing the corresponding piano with headphones.
Well, I think age and psychology do matter somehow.
When I was a kid I really liked some 8-bit NES games music. 8-bit sound. Not sure any of old grumblers is capable of that smile
I feel exactly the same way. I've never heard a DP that sounded and responded like a real piano. I have very mixed feelings about Pianoteq. I think that my Roland FP-90 is more piano like when I get used to the sound, while Pianoteq is more interesting but less realistic. My favourite VST has always been VSL's Vienna Imperial, but now I'm using their Synchron Steinway D, and I'm very impressed with it.
I think that, may be, DP sound just doesn't have to be "real" - what we have now is enough to cheat our feelings. It's like with VR glasses. One puts them on and now for shure that all that he sees is not real. But soon begins behaving sa if he is in real world, not in a game.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I know it sounds like a total waste of time but I had an hour or two today which I decided to spend by listening to YouTube or official website demos of all the latest digital pianos. I've played most of them or listened to demos many times in the past so this isn't something new. Anyway.

I simply couldn't like any of them frown To put it mildly.

Newest LX-series: thin, boxed, mono-like sound that is disguised by very good resonances and stuff but the core part is meh.
Previous LX-series: even worse!
Latest Yamaha pianos: sharp and rough.
Kawai Rendering: dull, boring, sterile, way too clean (regardless of characters/modes)
Dexibell: probably the worst of them all. Maybe not suitable for listening with headphones but I barely managed to withstand listening to any of the latest platinum extended sounds: distant, mono-like, over-processed, nasal
Casio: "plink-plonk"
Nord: actually the only ones I kind of liked, however on many of the demos it seems like the dynamic curves or velocity mappings might not be well made since many players produced what appeared to be too high velocities compared to the context of say softer passage, might be wrong, need to test.

(Haven't listened to any Korg and Kurzweil though)

I've also listened to demos of a few sample-based VST-s such as Ivory, CFX, Vintage D, etc. and they all sounded fabulous. I know the problem with them is playability and I personally have managed to connect (and love) CFX only.
-----
But started wondering: is this a burnout that I am having? Am I too picky? Becoming grumpy old man? smile What do you think?


Did you listen to all these instruments using the same headphones?
See, it’s not the YouTube compression, nor the headphones smile VST-s sound great with the “faulty” HD650-s.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
But started wondering: is this a burnout that I am having? Am I too picky? Becoming grumpy old man? smile What do you think?

Since you asked: I think you've maybe fallen (a bit) into this trap:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_is_the_enemy_of_good
Originally Posted by CyberGene
VST-s sound great with the “faulty” HD650-s.

Are your headphones broken too? Or are you making a joke?

My HD800's are broken. I've been struggling with them for months. Most recently with Sennheiser's repair center. They keep trying to claim replacing my $200 cable with a $120 cable will fix the faulty left driver. LOL. I keep explaining to them I have swapped the sides of the drivers with my cable, many times, and it is always is the left driver, so there is nothing wrong with the cable or its connectors. They don't seem to understand the implication of the fact I can do this and the problem remains on the left side. There's a 90-day warranty on repairs so I am thinking about just letting them do this stupid thing since I don't seem to be getting through to them, and when the left driver again doesn't work with their new cable, I'll just send it back again and ask them to fix for real. Lame.

I wish I had an HD650 to use instead right now, but all I have is an inexpensive pair of Roland brand headphones. frown
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by CyberGene
VST-s sound great with the “faulty” HD650-s.

Are your headphones broken too? Or are you making a joke?

My HD800's are broken. I've been struggling with them for months. Most recently with Sennheiser's repair center. They keep trying to claim replacing my $200 cable with a $120 cable will fix the faulty left driver. LOL. I keep explaining to them I have swapped the sides of the drivers with my cable, many times, and it is always is the left driver, so there is nothing wrong with the cable or its connectors. They don't seem to understand the implication of the fact I can do this and the problem remains on the left side. There's a 90-day warranty on repairs so I am thinking about just letting them do this stupid thing since I don't seem to be getting through to them, and when the left driver again doesn't work with their new cable, I'll just send it back again and ask them to fix for real. Lame.

I wish I had an HD650 to use instead right now, but all I have is an inexpensive pair of Roland brand headphones. frown

LOL, I feel your pain! It's kind of like when you call your internet provider because your internet is down, and they make you do the things you already tried like rebooting the router. Even if you tell them you already tried that, they won't go to the next step on their flowchart until you actually do it again. crazy
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by CyberGene
VST-s sound great with the “faulty” HD650-s.

Are your headphones broken too? Or are you making a joke?


I was being sarcastic smile Because I felt Doug M. might have implied it is my headphones to blame for hearing all digital piano demos as unconvincing. As I said, all sample based VST pianos sound great on YouTube through the same headphones so it just that digital pianos are lagging behind.

BTW, a good piano sound is a good piano sound (and conversely a bad piano sound is bad) regardless of headphones used. I've proven that to myself so many times when listening even on my tiny AirPods (which BTW are my favorite piece of technology ever and I could even go as far as to say I prefer them to my HD650 when all is taken into account - no wires, mobility, comfort, battery life, recharging through their case, easy connectivity with all my Apple devices, and of course amazing sound quality for such a small earbud).

Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by CyberGene
But started wondering: is this a burnout that I am having? Am I too picky? Becoming grumpy old man? smile What do you think?

Since you asked: I think you've maybe fallen (a bit) into this trap:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_is_the_enemy_of_good

That was an interesting read, thanks! Probably very close to the truth indeed. I especially liked this quote:
Quote
Economist George Stigler says that "If you never miss a plane, you're spending too much time at the airport."


It reminds me a constant argument between me, who is so often late by a little for everything, and my wife who feels very bad if late so is always way too early for everything. And I have found an interesting paper that studied people like me who are always late and discovered that the root cause is because the people who are late, actually feel inefficient if they come early because they will have to just sit and wait, so they try to be exactly on time but due to the unpredictable nature of our world this can't usually happen and they are either seeing they have some time ahead and so do something else, ultimately being late again, or just come late. I can't agree more with that because it is exactly why I'm always late, not because I want to be disrespectful to other people. And I know some cultures, e.g. the American, takes one being late as a huge disrespect and even insult... Fortunately in our eastern European part of the world things are different laugh
I realized that I felt the same recently.

Until I came across these videos over here this thread
Originally Posted by MahdiBlackStar
I realized that I felt the same recently.

Until I came across these videos over here this thread
this post actually confirms CyberGene’s finds that the digitals are a no match to acoustic grands.

The big ad for the Yamaha Clavinova is that they have sampled their top-of-the-line CFXIII (or whatever), however, the Clavinovas sound nothing like the real thing (and let me not start with the Bösendorfer sample which is next-to-useless IMO)

I can only join the eneral concensus that the digitals are good for learning or exercising but as far as recording and performing goes they are not substitute for an acoustic. If one wants to learn to play, they can get by with a digital. If one wants to learn how to perform, then an acoustic is all the way.

Yet the digitals are getting better with each generation. The progress is very slow but it’s there. I find myself actually looking forward to the Clavinova CLP 700 series which may be released next year (2020) but if they do not match my expectation I’ll be done with digitals and will buy a good acoustic instead. As a kid I learned on Petroff, it has a very specific sound which I’m accustomed to.

I’m actually a viola player but got interested in playing Chopin’s works (Fantasie-Impromptu) It’s a great challenge for a non-professional but why not. IMO everyone with moderate playing skills can learn it but only a few can actually perform it.

https://youtu.be/pK2gHiwydDo
There are excellent piano alternatives out there for home playing like Pyrophone, Hydrolauphone or Stalacpipe organ. Meet the living under clear sky. If anyone is still desperate, there is always Double contrabass flute. I am using it all the time laugh
Originally Posted by CyberGene
See, it’s not the YouTube compression, nor the headphones smile VST-s sound great with the “faulty” HD650-s.


Lol, I had my tongue firmly in my cheek when I implied it might be your headphones ;-)
I grew up in the 1960s and 1970s. You should try an RMI 'piano' and then reconsider this thread. smile

I would have given anything back then for what we have today.
Nothing digital can replace an AP. Me ? After trying them all two years ago, I bought a Korg. Best compromise between playability, programmability, touch/sound response and overall satisfaction while playing. You won't be able to select the best one for you until you test and play them yourself. So listening to audio or watching video files don't tell much.
I am giving thumb up for CyberGene on this topic and I almost agree what did you stated:
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Previous LX-series: even worse!
Latest Yamaha pianos: sharp and rough.
Kawai Rendering: dull, boring, sterile, way too clean (regardless of characters/modes)
Casio: "plink-plonk"
Nord: actually the only ones I kind of liked
(Haven't listened to any Korg and Kurzweil though)

IMO Roland modelling is step back from SuperNatural (I mean solo playing).
Kawai for me only have great imitation of grand piano action.
I had Nord piano 2. I played couple of times on Nord piano 3 (Nord piano 4 not yet but soon) and still I miss for simplicity of this instrument but I am not gigging (I am home player only) and this gear is not for me.
Someone experienced in nord gears on nord forum said about previous and new released samples form Clavia: "again a nice cymbaloms ;)" and I would agree with that.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Casio: "plink-plonk"

I love it laugh

Originally Posted by CyberGene
I've also listened to demos of a few sample-based VST-s such as Ivory, CFX, Vintage D, etc. and they all sounded fabulous. I know the problem with them is playability and I personally have managed to connect (and love) CFX only.

Personally I love german Steinway and that cause I have chosen Ivory Grand Pianos. I own it from few days and ia am in heaven smile Maybe if I would have much better PC I would choose VSL Steinawy D but not for sure. I tried last week Pianoteq 6 and I have a mixed feelings ...sorry, no.
I don't like too much Yamaha sounds but C7 from Ivory quite impressed me. I like Garritan CFX sound much more than C7 but this same problem like with VSLs - too poor PC.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Am I too picky? Becoming grumpy old man? smile What do you think?

No, I don't think like that. I am average aged and I am not able to tolerate bad and unnatural sound.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
It reminds me a constant argument between me, who is so often late by a little for everything ...

...the root cause is because the people who are late, actually feel inefficient if they come early because they will have to just sit and wait, so they try to be exactly on time but due to the unpredictable nature of our world this can't usually happen and they are either seeing they have some time ahead and so do something else, ultimately being late again, or just come late. I can't agree more with that because it is exactly why I'm always late, not because I want to be disrespectful to other people

OMG! I am this same! Always on time or a little bit late but never early. Being somewhere too early frustrate me.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Fortunately in our eastern European part of the world things are different laugh

That's true but not every parts of eastern Europe. For example, even in my country is not always the same, especially in west side (closer to german culture) of Poland, people are much more strict than on east side, near Ukraine.

Originally Posted by TrollToddington
I can only join the eneral concensus that the digitals are good for learning or exercising but as far as recording and performing goes they are not substitute for an acoustic. If one wants to learn to play, they can get by with a digital. If one wants to learn how to perform, then an acoustic is all the way.

IMO digital pianos are dentures of acoustic grands, what I repeating for many new people on muzykuj.com forum, who asking about really good instrument. Maybe enough for reading and researching new piano works and spontaneous playing but completely not enough good for practicing interpretation of classical works. VSTs ar good compromise but you will never touch a heaven if you don't play on good (tuned and well prepared) acoustic grand.

Originally Posted by slobajudge
There are excellent piano alternatives out there for home playing like Pyrophone, Hydrolauphone or Stalacpipe organ. Meet the living under clear sky. If anyone is still desperate, there is always Double contrabass flute. I am using it all the time laugh

laugh
That way I am also playing on trumpet, cornet ...and bamboo flute wink I am trying ocarina but still unsucesfull.
Originally Posted by CyberGene


Newest LX-series: thin, boxed, mono-like sound that is disguised by very good resonances and stuff but the core part is meh.
Previous LX-series: even worse!

-----
But started wondering: is this a burnout that I am having? Am I too picky? Becoming grumpy old man? smile What do you think?



Have you ever heard a sound of vocal cords coming close to pruduce sound of human voice? Initially, it's just sone kind of unpleasant hissing or something like that. Only when this sound comes through our body, when it's enriched with chest and head resonances, we can hear that beautiful singing tone, for example. May be, it's just the same with the piano? Resonances (cabinet, open stirngs etc.) do not mask anyting - resonances create piano sound.
Originally Posted by PianoStartsAt33
Originally Posted by CyberGene


Newest LX-series: thin, boxed, mono-like sound that is disguised by very good resonances and stuff but the core part is meh.
Previous LX-series: even worse!

-----
But started wondering: is this a burnout that I am having? Am I too picky? Becoming grumpy old man? smile What do you think?



Have you ever heard a sound of vocal cords coming close to pruduce sound of human voice? Initially, it's just sone kind of unpleasant hissing or something like that. Only when this sound comes through our body, when it's enriched with chest and head resonances, we can hear that beautiful singing tone, for example. May be, it's just the same with the piano? Resonances (cabinet, open stirngs etc.) do not mask anyting - resonances create piano sound.


This might seem like a proper analogy but it isn't smile Ultimately it's the final result that matters. I don't care how human voice is created, I only care if it is beautiful. Same with piano sound. To my ears the final result of the current or previous fully modeled Roland pianos isn't good enough EVEN with the rich resonances added. But that's just my ears. YMMV as they say smile
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by PianoStartsAt33
Originally Posted by CyberGene


Newest LX-series: thin, boxed, mono-like sound that is disguised by very good resonances and stuff but the core part is meh.
Previous LX-series: even worse!

-----
But started wondering: is this a burnout that I am having? Am I too picky? Becoming grumpy old man? smile What do you think?



Have you ever heard a sound of vocal cords coming close to pruduce sound of human voice? Initially, it's just sone kind of unpleasant hissing or something like that. Only when this sound comes through our body, when it's enriched with chest and head resonances, we can hear that beautiful singing tone, for example. May be, it's just the same with the piano? Resonances (cabinet, open stirngs etc.) do not mask anyting - resonances create piano sound.


This might seem like a proper analogy but it isn't smile Ultimately it's the final result that matters. I don't care how human voice is created, I only care if it is beautiful. Same with piano sound. To my ears the final result of the current or previous fully modeled Roland pianos isn't good enough EVEN with the rich resonances added. But that's just my ears. YMMV as they say smile



Reminded me a story once told by an old russian opera singer. He said when he was young he had a chance to perform in India in front of some half-wild tribe. And these local guys found all these opera stuff sound unpleasant. While we think it's beautiful. Although, not all of us - I know many teenagers grown up on pop, rap or and rock music that might say opera singing sound unpleasant to them.
So, this all is just a collection of IMHOs smile
Once again, this is an analogy that might have its merits but I don't think is applicable in my case. I've grown up with the piano, my mother plays piano, I've played many different pianos, including grand and upright pianos, I've listened to piano music all my life so I know exactly how an acoustic piano should sound, although they differ a lot, yet they have their specific inherent character that's currently missing in modeled pianos.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by PianoStartsAt33
Originally Posted by CyberGene


Newest LX-series: thin, boxed, mono-like sound that is disguised by very good resonances and stuff but the core part is meh.
Previous LX-series: even worse!

-----
But started wondering: is this a burnout that I am having? Am I too picky? Becoming grumpy old man? smile What do you think?



Have you ever heard a sound of vocal cords coming close to pruduce sound of human voice? Initially, it's just sone kind of unpleasant hissing or something like that. Only when this sound comes through our body, when it's enriched with chest and head resonances, we can hear that beautiful singing tone, for example. May be, it's just the same with the piano? Resonances (cabinet, open stirngs etc.) do not mask anyting - resonances create piano sound.


This might seem like a proper analogy but it isn't smile Ultimately it's the final result that matters. I don't care how human voice is created, I only care if it is beautiful. Same with piano sound. To my ears the final result of the current or previous fully modeled Roland pianos isn't good enough EVEN with the rich resonances added. But that's just my ears. YMMV as they say smile


And are any others any better? I think not. Perception varies enormously minute by minute almost. When you're stuck with one piano sound, you accept the situation and enjoy it, because there are (were) no alternatives then. And not a lot of money floating around, either. Generally speaking that is!
The choices we nave now create more problems than they solve. The supermarkets are five times larger than they need to be, frankly, it's a pain trying to find basic commodities any more. . . .
More is less!

I'm going to play my FP50 for a week, without any Pianoteq intrusion. Just to see how I get on . . . .I didn't buy it without reason.
Coincidentally just placed an order for a NU1X from Thomann laugh
Your lifelong exposure to acoustic pianos may indeed be the reason for your finding Pianoteq unsatisfactory.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Once again, this is an analogy that might have its merits but I don't think is applicable in my case. I've grown up with the piano, my mother plays piano, I've played many different pianos, including grand and upright pianos, I've listened to piano music all my life so I know exactly how an acoustic piano should sound, although they differ a lot, yet they have their specific inherent character that's currently missing in modeled pianos.
And someone's lack of such exposure might explain why he accepts electronically produced piano sounds as natural ... even to the point that he dislikes the acoustic piano?
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Coincidentally just placed an order for a NU1X from Thomann laugh

At least this disproves your theory that you are totally burned out - you found one that actually makes you happy! Congratulations! I would recommend that you now cease messing around with other sampled libraries for a while and enjoy your new piano! You don't want to start comparing your new instrument to other huge sampled libraries.
Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Coincidentally just placed an order for a NU1X from Thomann laugh

At least this disproves your theory that you are totally burned out - you found one that actually makes you happy! Congratulations! I would recommend that you now cease messing around with other sampled libraries for a while and enjoy your new piano! You don't want to start comparing your new instrument to other huge sampled libraries.


It's exactly what I intend to do and what I've actually been doing with all my previous purchases. Although I've used Vintage D in the past, it was only for recordings. And with Garritan CFX I started using it a year or two after I've played with the internal sound of my ES7. And I will also have my grand action DIY controller hooked to Garritan CFX, so hopefully there's much variety in my piano arsenal to not complain for a while wink
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Coincidentally just placed an order for a NU1X from Thomann laugh


Congratulations!
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Coincidentally just placed an order for a NU1X from Thomann laugh


Will you continue development of Cyber DIY grand piano??
Originally Posted by newer player
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Coincidentally just placed an order for a NU1X from Thomann laugh


Will you continue development of Cyber DIY grand piano??


Ohh, sure, it's almost finished, I have the sensor PCB-s (yes, I decided to use single small PCBs for each sensor), the note module PCB-s (those that interpret the optical signals and generate digital signals) and currently finishing the CPU board which is actually just a board that hosts the Teensy controller, does I/O with the key modules and has the 5V and pedal inputs. A particular reason for it to take so long, besides the lack of time, is my personality which is always hesitating, I always strive for perfection and I simply can't finalize things because I am afraid I might be missing something or it could have been made better and so I just think and think and try many things in my head only to realize on the next day that I should try differently... But it will be finished! smile
I've listened to piano music all my life so I know exactly how an acoustic piano should sound, although they differ a lot, yet they have their specific inherent character that's currently missing in modeled pianos.

That settles it, we'll have a double blind test and see if you can tell the difference more than 50 percent of the time. smile
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Coincidentally just placed an order for a NU1X from Thomann laugh

Congratulations - from what I've heard that's a great piano. I'll be quite curious what you'll think of the onboard CFX and Bosendorfer sounds after you've spent a lot of time with them. I haven't had the chance to play it but some of the best sounds (with a great action) from Yamaha should be very interesting!
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Ohh, sure, it's almost finished, I have the sensor PCB-s (yes, I decided to use single small PCBs for each sensor), the note module PCB-s (those that interpret the optical signals and generate digital signals) and currently finishing the CPU board which is actually just a board that hosts the Teensy controller, does I/O with the key modules and has the 5V and pedal inputs. A particular reason for it to take so long, besides the lack of time, is my personality which is always hesitating, I always strive for perfection and I simply can't finalize things because I am afraid I might be missing something or it could have been made better and so I just think and think and try many things in my head only to realize on the next day that I should try differently... But it will be finished! smile

Awesome. There is always a case for rummaging ideas and a case for just diving in.
Most of the digitals I've tried lately just sound, well, too digital. I guess I am spoiled by having an acoustic grand, but after playing some digitals, and then playing the real things, it's just not even close. Even the ones that had a good piano sound could not compete in touch. It felt like playing mf would produce a sound that's too soft, or if I wanted to play ff, I'd have to hit the keys extremely hard. In short, I didn't like the sound or the touch response of most digitals. They are good for non-piano sounds, but for just piano, I'd rather have any decent acoustic.
Originally Posted by Jeff Hurchalla
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Coincidentally just placed an order for a NU1X from Thomann laugh

Congratulations - from what I've heard that's a great piano. I'll be quite curious what you'll think of the onboard CFX and Bosendorfer sounds after you've spent a lot of time with them. I haven't had the chance to play it but some of the best sounds (with a great action) from Yamaha should be very interesting!


Thanks, Jeff! From what I've heard so far as demos, Garritan CFX is still better sounding than Yamaha's own sampling but then there's the entire NU1X package with the real action, the great sound system, the VRM resonance modeling and all that integrated into lovely playability.

But I guess I'm not abandoning Garritan CFX yet which I will be using with my own built controller, so thank you again for your excellent work on CFX and your tremendous help in regards to re-pedaling configuration.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I've listened to piano music all my life so I know exactly how an acoustic piano should sound, although they differ a lot, yet they have their specific inherent character that's currently missing in modeled pianos.


I have to find that video I've seen on Youtube about a year ago - with a little girl observing her new Yamaha P-45. Althought she speaks russian... So, the point is that she says:"The sound is beatiful! I like it much more than sound of any real piano in my music school".
So, it's a child. About 9-10 years old. Her taste is not formed yet. She just has to make fair, not influenced choice. And she chooses digital sound. I may suppose that pianos in her music school are mostly in not very good condition because financing is poor. But nevertheless, all the old peano teacher I know alway say "The worst and cheapest acoustic is better than any digital" - the child feels it opposite.
Originally Posted by PianoStartsAt33

I have to find that video I've seen on Youtube about a year ago - with a little girl observing her new Yamaha P-45. Althought she speaks russian... So, the point is that she says:"The sound is beatiful! I like it much more than sound of any real piano in my music school".
So, it's a child. About 9-10 years old. Her taste is not formed yet. She just has to make fair, not influenced choice. And she chooses digital sound. I may suppose that pianos in her music school are mostly in not very good condition because financing is poor. But nevertheless, all the old peano teacher I know alway say "The worst and cheapest acoustic is better than any digital" - the child feels it opposite.
So, she says she attends a music school. I dare to say her taste is pretty well formed.

Once I was a student to the local music school, the acoustic pianos there were low end August Fürster (I am referring to late 1980s and early 1990s). Without any doubt any contemporary digital, especially a Yamaha, would beat them in sound and mechanics.

Turning to the Russian made acoustic pianos (Чайковски, Чайка and whatnot), here (and “here” is an Eastern European country) they are considered next-to-garbage, a poor man’s acoustic piano, a better-than-nothing instrument. Those are the cheapest pianos on the market.

It’s quite believeable that the girl in the said video has been honest.

And no, I disagree with your teacher who seems to have never played a Чайка.

I do not mean to hate the Russian-made pianos. They have their uses, for example, the students in opera singing buy them to help them exercise their voice while warming up.
Originally Posted by TrollToddington
Originally Posted by PianoStartsAt33

But nevertheless, all the old peano teacher I know alway say "The worst and cheapest acoustic is better than any digital"


And no, I disagree with your teacher who seems to have never played a Чайка.



I meant not my teacher exaxctly, but any old music teacher from numerous music schools around the country. All theese grannies hate digitals.
I disagree too, of course. But I bet there some forum members that share teacher's position smile
Most of these “grannies” have prepared top class pianists, especially in Eastetn Europe smile They are very clever and know their business, don’t underestimate them! Of course Soviet pianos are crap and I’d prefer a digital over most Soviet pianos without blinking. But for me personally a digital piano, bar hybrid ones, is a no match for a well tuned and maintained acoustic Japanese or German piano.
Soviet pianos lousy? I hear nothing wrong with this one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKaXayoLGgs
When I said “most” and not “all” of them, it was exactly because of Estonia smile But can’t think of any other Soviet brand that is worth it today and is still made. BTW, Estonia is very old, so maybe shouldn’t be considered Soviet at all.
It matters very much when a particular Estonia piano was built. They were good long long ago before the Soviet period, they're excellent now. The one in the video appears to be well post-Soviet.
Originally Posted by PianoStartsAt33
But nevertheless, all the old peano teacher I know alway say "The worst and cheapest acoustic is better than any digital" - the child feels it opposite.


That teacher hasn't heard anything like my old spinet recently replaced by a NU1X. Here is a small recording of each using the voice memo on my iPhone.


50+ year old Baldwin Spinet tuned every 6 months..

Yamaha NU1X
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