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Posted By: JoBert Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/03/18 03:09 PM
The two other threads for the Novus NV10 (following the preview and release announcements) have been filled with lots of speculation about the upcoming product, and especially lots of controversy about its US pricing, so I thought it might be a good idea to open a new thread to post actual hands on experiences with the actual released product, and as a place to discuss those impressions.
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/03/18 03:12 PM
Today I spent about 1.5 hours in Thomann's shop, testing the Kawai Novus NV10 and, for comparison, some other digitals and acoustics. Here are a few of my impressions from that session.

TL;DR: I liked the NV10 well enough to have ordered one (or rather, to not have cancelled my preorder - but more about that below). smile

First of all, some background so that you know what you can expect from this "review": This is going to be more of a stream of consciousness write-up than a proper structured review. Also, I'm not an expert. Neither of digital pianos nor of acoustic pianos. Also not of sound systems or sound reproductions. So you won't find a detailed analysis about how every minute property of the action compares to every other digital (and acoustic) action out there. Neither anything about how the speaker/amp system is "heavy in bass" or "lacking in certain frequencies in the treble" or "overemphasizes the G4 when also playing a G-minor chord in the C3 octave", or how "the modeled harmonics for the C4 are rather a tad too sharp", or any such details.

Oh, and this might get a bit longish (<- understatement of the year!), as I tend to ramble, but you already saw my TL;DR, so that's all you need to know if you aren't up for a wall of text. wink

Today being a Saturday, I went to the shop rather early, to beat the crowd. Which was a good thing, because I had more than an hour of relatively quiet and undisturbed testing time, before around 11:00h or so, when the ambient noise picked up a lot and made further testing almost impossible (even with headphones - at least with my open backed ones).

To get sort of a baseline, I first played the Avant Grand N1 for a bit. It was how I remembered it. I.e. I didn't like it too much. Mainly because of the sound (which is of course a bit dated by now), but also because of the action feel. I always have problems on the Avant Grands, especially in fast passages.

Then I went over to the Kawai CA98, the successor of the CA97 that I currently have. I deliberately selected the SK-EX from the sound mode engine, which is the same as the SK-EX in my CA97, and as expected, I felt right at home. No wonder, as the CA98 has the same GFII action as my CA97.
Then I switched over to the new SK-EK rendering engine in pianist mode that the Novus also has. And yes, I think it does indeed sound even better than the "old" Hi-XL SK-EX that I am used to and like very well. So on that front, things were looking good in respect to how I would like the NV10.
Although I must say, if it were only about an upgrade from the CA97 to the CA98, I would pass at this time. The new pianist mode sound is very good, but the previous sound mode sound is also already very good, and just for the new sound mode, I wouldn't drop another 1500-1800 EUR (depending on how much I can get for my used CA97).

With that baseline established, I finally sat down at the Novus NV10.

First impression: Thank heavens, I do like the look in real life too. I did like how it looked on the photos and in the videos, but was unsure how my impression would be in the real world. I think it's very sleek looking. High polish black piano finish, understated design, unobtrusive speakers on top.

Second impression: The action is way different than the GFII in my CA97 (and the CA98)! At least to me. I have practically zero experience playing on grands. My whole piano education in my youth was on acoustic uprights only, and since then it was digitals all the way. That's also why having a grand piano was always a dream of mine and why I'm now so interested in this newest generation of hybrids, as it can finally get me as close to a grand as is possible with a digital (and for other reasons I actually prefer a digital over an acoustic grand). So I didn't really know what to expect. Remember how I said I didn't like the N1 too much because of the action feel? Turns out a good bit of that may have been because I'm simply not used to a grand action!
So what was so different? The action, at least of this particular unit, has a very noticeable pressure point at the escapement. Much, much more than the simulated "escapement" of the GFII. Actually, even a bit more than the same Millennium III action in the Kawai GL30 and GL50 pianos that Thomann has in their show room, and that I tested for comparison. I wonder why there is such a noticeable difference? Maybe because the NV10 was brand new, and has not been played a lot yet, while the GL30 and GL50 have likely been in that show room for quite a while by now? Maybe the GLs are better regulated (or regulated worse - I don't know which of the two is "better")? Maybe there's a difference between different manufacturing batches of the Millennium III? [Side Note: I noticed counter weights visible in the sides of the bass keys of the NV10, that I don't remember seeing on the GLs, although I forgot to explicitly check for them - maybe that's also a sign that the actions are subtly different?].
I also noticed that the action has a lot of "bounce" (for want of a better word). Meaning, that if you press a key and release it quickly, it swings back up, actually going slightly higher than its resting position, then swinging back down again, a bit lower than its resting position, up again, etc. in an oscillating pattern before (after a very short time, i.e. a fracture of a second) it finally rests still in its normal position. This I made sure to check on the GLs, and yes, on those the keys had the same "bounce back" behavior as on the NV10. So regarding that, the actions are comparable.

But what does all of this mean regarding how it plays? Surprisingly, to me, I got used to this different feel quite quickly and I had the feeling that I could control the action quite well. In contrast to the N1 action that I tried at first, I could play the fast passages, and fast ornaments, very well on the NV10 action (although that might have been because by now I was played in, while I tested the N1 "cold"). I got the feeling that the runs and ornaments were more under control and more even than what I usually manage on the CA97. Don't know if that is wishful thinking though...
So yes, this grand action felt quite different for me, but it turned out that the difference was "good" - essentially the whole reason why I'm excited about these hybrids, giving me a grand action without having to deal with the disadvantages of an actual grand. It would be a shame if there weren't a noticeable difference to the GFII, because then I could just as well stay with the CA97.
Actually, that was my main "fear" beforehand, that it would turn out that the GFII does indeed simulate a grand action so well, that the difference to the Millennium III action is so minute, that the expense to upgrade to the NV10 is simply not justified. Well, that "fear" was unfounded. The action feels quite different (although I still think the GFII is a great action too) and my play tests showed that, at least for me, that difference did indeed give me the feeling that I had better control of the action. But I could also understand if someone else comes to a totally different conclusion. I think this is highly subjective.

BTW, I quickly tried the action of the Yamaha CLP 685, as that action has been described in a quite controversial fashion here in the forum (some liking it a lot, others not at all) and I must say that I'm firmly in the camp of not liking it. It has a very stiff pressure point (static weight?) that must be overcome to depress a key, which felt very unnatural to me, especially in comparison to the N1, NV10 and the acoustic GLs that I tested.
The one action that I would probably still prefer over the Novus action was the Renner action in the 45,000€ Alpha Piano that they also had in the show room. smile

One other aspect that I tested (or tried to test) was of course the sound via speakers. Some forum members have expressed doubt that with the given specs (for speakers and amps) the Novus may not be adequately equipped to reproduce a grand piano sound properly.
This was unfortunately very difficult to test in the public show room. First of all, because I totally hate playing in front of strangers. Secondly, because the room acoustics are all but ideal. And third, there was a lot of interfering noise (other people playing acoustics and digitals), especially when the shop started to get more crowded.
From what I could test, I thought it sounded very good. smile But take my evaluation with a pinch of salt. As I said in the intro, I'm not an expert. I'm also not a hifi aficionado. When others complain that the CA97/CA98 with the soundboard sounds boomy/boxy, I can only respond that to me it sounds perfectly fine, excellent even (I still prefer playing my CA97 on speakers/soundboard over playing it with headphones). So what sounds "very good" in my ears may well sound way different in yours. wink
One test I did specifically, after QuinnGold wrote about her tests at NAMM 2018, that she thought the max volume on the NV10 was probably a bit on the low side, was to test how "loud" the piano would get at fff. I especially compared this to the loudness of the acoustics. I made only a very basic test, of course, by simply playing a bass chord at about ff force (I didn't want to lean in all my weight to go for fff or more, because of the other people there). Compared to the upright acoustics (I tested the larger Yamahas and Kawais, and even a very nice 20,000€ Blüthner concert upright), the NV10 had no problem matching the volume. I didn't even have to max out the volume knob for this. I would say that it would also be a match for the GL30. Which leaves me convinced that for the intended use in our living room, the volume of the NV10 will do just fine.
BTW, the subwoofer in the base (behind the pedal rods) manages to impart a nice vibration to the pedals and keys, when playing bass to midrange keys at f/ff. That is a small but nice thing that for me always adds that little touch of realism when playing my CA97 with the soundboard, and I'm happy that the NV10 does have this too, at least to some degree. But the final verdict on how I actually like the speaker sound (and the achievable volume) will have to happen when I test the Novus in my own home.

All in all, after my test today, I'm 90-95% sure that I will be very happy with the Novus. These final percent will have to be confirmed when testing it here, at home.

And under this consideration, it is a good thing that I have already ordered the NV10, so that I can indeed test it at home. smile

I ordered it online, BTW, so that gives me a 30 day window during which I can return the piano for a full refund, no questions asked. So if it should turn out that here at home I actually don't like it, then I still have that option open to me.

I did not order at Thomann though. While I appreciate that I could test the piano there, they currently do not have it in storage, so I would have to wait for the next batch, which is not expected before the end of the month. Instead I ordered at a different online shop. That's where I fear I'm now outing me as a bit crazy, because I actually ordered (and paid for) the NV10 a few days ago already, on last Wednesday, before I had even seen it with my own eyes, let alone tested it. crazy
I thought I was super clever with that. I had noticed that Thomann had the NV10 as "available immediately" last Tuesday, but on Wednesday it was already set back to "available on Feb. 28th". I figured, that they probably got two or three units delivered, put one into their show room and sold the other one or two. And if Thomann, the biggest player in the field, only gets two or three units of the first batch, then most likely all other sellers would also get a similar small number. Most of which would end up as show room units, so if I wanted to snag one of the first batch, and not wait until March or later, I would have to be quick.
Well, there was this other online shop that offered the NV10 too, with two advantages over Thomann: First, they gave 2% discount if paid in advance (via wire transfer) and second, while Thomann (and many others) only do curb side deliveries (and you would have to pay extra for more), this seller offered a "premium delivery" by a specialized piano mover firm for free, which includes delivery to the final placement site, which is important with a 130kg piano (up two flights of stairs in our case), and assembly. This premium delivery however has the drawback that it is supposed to take about 1 to 2 weeks from the moment the piano is available at their facility (depending on how far away you are and when the piano movers are next in your vicinity). So overly clever as I were, I figured, that I could just order the piano on Wednesday (and wire the advance payment to make sure it is reserved for me) and then test the piano on Saturday at Thomann, and if it turned out that I actually didn't like it, I would have lots of time to cancel my purchase before it even leaves their facility.
Well, this worked perfectly in so far, as I did indeed manage to reserve one of the few available units of the first batch for me. But it worked a bit too perfectly, actually. blush As it turned out, my guess that each vendor was getting only one or two units was spot on. When I called them yesterday afternoon, to confirm that my advance payment had made it through (which it had), they did tell me that they had indeed received exactly two units from Kawai. One of which they were just then in the process of setting up in their show room, and the other was the one that I had just bought. Which they had not even removed from the truck, but had simply sent on on its way to me. Argh! And I thought I had lots of time to maybe cancel the delivery after I tested the piano today. Turns out, I was wrong. Already yesterday, just one hour after I spoke to the seller, the piano movers called me to arrange for a delivery date.

So I'm now having my NV10 delivered the day after tomorrow, on Monday afternoon. Which I think makes me one of the first persons in Germany (and probably the world, excluding Japan?) to have the Novus at home. A distinction that makes me a bit excited, but also definitely a bit nervous. eek
Posted By: winnyec Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/03/18 03:35 PM
Thanks a lot. And please do keep us informed about your adventure it turned out to be.
Posted By: bSharp(C)yclist Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/03/18 03:43 PM
Congrats!! You're brave to buy it before looking at it laugh I'm looking forward to trying it in a few weeks here. Should be interesting. I've never played on a Kawai piano before. Only Yamaha at home and at the music school, and then the occasional Steinway for recitals.
Posted By: Tyr Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/03/18 04:03 PM
Thanks JoBert. I'm looking forward to the NV10 and congrats to your purchase. smile
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/03/18 04:32 PM
Did you try the Alpha Piano?
This is the first time I’ve heard of the Alpha Piano being available for purchase.
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/03/18 04:49 PM
Originally Posted by Pete14
Did you try the Alpha Piano?
This is the first time I’ve heard of the Alpha Piano being available for purchase.

Not really. I only played a few chords.
Posted By: PianoZac Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/03/18 05:01 PM
Huge congrats! I expect to play the one my dealer is getting in soon, and will report my impressions then. I’ve owned the AvantGrand N1 now for the last 4 years so I’m not expecting big differences in feel, but I am expecting improvements in the speaker system (although the N1 has a superb onboard speaker system), and improvements in the sound engine. The new SK-EX and SK-5 sounds I’ve played and heard on the CS11and CA98 are simply superb. Kawai, IMHO, has now leap frogged all other brands built in sample sets and Roland’s SN modeling, which just doesn’t feel alive, contrary to the authentic behavior of modeling. Kawai has done an exceptional job in the sound department. As much as I love my N1, I’m particularly excited to get the MP11SE.
Posted By: newer player Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/03/18 05:42 PM
Good strategy JoBert. Supplies look limited for a while so just getting a NV10 is not possible for most; negotiating price is tough when there is virtually no supply but some strong interest.

Looking forward to your impressions at home.
Posted By: ando Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/03/18 07:34 PM
Originally Posted by JoBert

The one action that I would probably still prefer over the Novus action was the Renner action in the 45,000€ Alpha Piano that they also had in the show room. smile

Wait, what?! The Alpha piano actually exists and can be bought? It's been hiding in vapourware land for so long, nobody has even mentioned seeing it. But 45,000€ - yikes! Maybe the company decided to shift to money-laundering as a business model...
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/03/18 07:42 PM
Not really on topic, but:
https://www.thomann.de/gb/alpha_studio_piano_white_polished.htm
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/03/18 07:56 PM
Who's gonna pay 50 large for a digital piano? ROFL
Posted By: clothearednincompo Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/03/18 08:39 PM
You can then buy the Sennheiser HE1 headphones to be used with the Alpha Piano.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/03/18 08:53 PM
Why a hydraulic system? Why have Porsche design it? Why the wireless pedals?
This should’ve been a bare-bones hybrid piano with nothing but the essentials (good speakers, software, and a conventional upright/mini-grand design) surrounding the concert grand action.
The sensor mechanism is yet to be proven, but it seems like a good approach (sensors act as strings). The real felt hammers strike the “strings” as they would on a real piano. This, I truly like.
The hydraulic mechanism could come in handy if you need to replace a flat tire, but other than that, I think an adjustable bench would the trick if the piano sits to low/high for some players. I wonder if Alpha is aware of adjustable benches: they go up and down, and use some form of mini-hydraulic mechanism.
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/04/18 08:21 AM
I just remembered one thing that I forgot in my write-up: The damper weight mechanism. With the NV10 currently the only digital piano that has this, I was of course curious to test it. Well, for me personally, I can say that it indeed behaves just like it did on the acoustic GLs that I tried. Meaning that both on the GLs and the NV10, I don't really notice the key weight change (with depressed damper pedal) while playing, but if I explicitly look for it by depressing a single key, there is a noticeable change in how the key press feels, and that change is so similar between the NV10 and the GLs, that I can't really say that I can feel a difference between the two. So that seems to work as designed.
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/04/18 08:29 AM
Although I appreciate the damper pedal thing, it's just one of those things piano manufacturers would have loved to not have. It doesn't do anything helpful to your playing, it's an artifact coming from the way piano works. Same as escapement. And keyboard shifting to one side when you press the una corda pedal. But I realize hybrid instruments are meant to replicate the real thing as close as possible, including artifacts so it's OK I guess.
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/04/18 11:44 AM
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Although I appreciate the damper pedal thing, it's just one of those things piano manufacturers would have loved to not have. It doesn't do anything helpful to your playing, it's an artifact coming from the way piano works. Same as escapement. And keyboard shifting to one side when you press the una corda pedal. But I realize hybrid instruments are meant to replicate the real thing as close as possible, including artifacts so it's OK I guess.

I actually agree. If the acoustic piano technicians would have been able to remove these idiosyncrasies, they most likely would have.

However, they didn’t, so now they exist in acoustic pianos. And imo, if a digital piano strives to simulate an acoustic, then this simulation shouldn’t stop with simulating the tone, decay, harmonics and what not. It should also include the touch and feel and, yes, also the idiosyncrasies. At least as well as possible for the given budget.
Posted By: Frédéric L Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/04/18 12:15 PM
Curious you dislike the N1 action. I have tested it and was very found of it. It is quite firm. Perhaps that’s what you dislike.

Unfortunately, my nearest piano shop has Casio, Roland, Yamaha but no Kawai. I will not test the NV10 soon.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/04/18 01:06 PM
It seems like manufacturers differ in terms of what ‘idiosyncrasies’ are worth replicating. For example, Casio omitted the simulated escapement effect, and still they claim that their Celviano’s note-repetition surpasses that of a real piano. Of course, they’re not using a real grand piano action, but still it’s a step in that direction.
Kawai included a damper mechanism and -naturally occurring- escapement. Alpha also has real escapement, but omitted the damper mechanism. The new sensor system in the Alpha actually requires hammers to strike string-like sensors. So yes, the Alpha has felt hammers (I assume these will need to be replaced and/or maintained at some point). Perhaps in the case of the Alpha the hammers are essential; although I wonder if using a different material for the hammer heads (synthetic) would’ve been more practical and therefore maintenance free.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/04/18 01:07 PM
A local US dealer got a Novus in and I spent a good two hours playing it yesterday.

I wanted to second just about everything Jobert said, it's a good description of the piano.

A few random thoughts (more detail to come later):

1. The UI did seem to crash and reset every time I plugged headphones into the 1/4" jack, but the piano kept playing fine while this was happening.

2. The action is truly a grand action. I have some regular experience on grands now and I will say it is more or less indistinguishable from a GL-30 or GX. What it doesn't feel like is a light, airy action on an Shigeru or Bosendorfer 214/280. In terms of hybrids, I think this is truly authentic, and the new gold standard by a country mile. Could it be better? Sure, but it is like the MP11 is to slabs (nothing else on the mass market comes close right now).

3. Feel of the pivot point, or playing in the back of the keys is very similar to the GF2 action or Yamaha Grand Touch. As expected it's a very long pivot, and I don't feel I need anything more in this respect.

4. Key surface is acrylic for whites, matte sanded for black keys, exactly like Grand Feel I.

5. Interesting trivia; each keystick is individually numbered and you can see the numbering when the fallboard is half open/closed.

6. I've spent a similar amount of time with the Avent Grands before and like Jobert, I was surprised to not really care for the action. It is stiffer than a typical Yamaha Grand like a C3X, the keydip felt shallow, and I came away thinking it felt way more like an NU1 action than any grand I have ever played.

7. I didn't intend to spend a lot of time with the speakers on but I actually did. They seemed to be plenty loud, and I never felt I had to move them to max volume. There is a directed immediacy that feels more like an N2 than an N3/acoustic (more like speakers pointed towards the player than directed outward to the audience).

8. The 20k price from NAMM isn't a thing. All the dealers i talked to who have ordered the nv10 have been consistent even before NAMM on price being in the $12k ballpark (some say a little more, some a little less) so I think the higher list price is just a way to display a big discount to the buyer.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/04/18 01:16 PM
After playing this instrument, and compared to AvantGrand, what would you consider to be a fair street price?
Posted By: Bambers Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/04/18 01:23 PM
Keysticks on most pianos, digital and acoustic, are numbered!

Originally Posted by Pete14
It seems like manufacturers differ in terms of what ‘idiosyncrasies’ are worth replicating. For example, Casio omitted the simulated escapement effect, and still they claim that their Celviano’s note-repetition surpasses that of a real piano. Of course, they’re not using a real grand piano action, but still it’s a step in that direction.
Kawai included a damper mechanism and -naturally occurring- escapement. Alpha also has real escapement, but omitted the damper mechanism. The new sensor system in the Alpha actually requires hammers to strike string-like sensors. So yes, the Alpha has felt hammers (I assume these will need to be replaced and/or maintained at some point). Perhaps in the case of the Alpha the hammers are essential; although I wonder if using a different material for the hammer heads (synthetic) would’ve been more practical and therefore maintenance free.


The celviano isn't really a hybrid though, note repetition seems to be a bit of a marketing thing as well. If anything cheaper DP actions tend to be better as the static weight of the system is proportionally greater than the overall inertia which means a faster return.

With the alpha, the sensors seem to be pretty soft, I doubt they will cut into the felt like piano strings too. Also even if the ends eventually get flattened a bit I'm not sure that makes much difference, the alpha is simply picking up velocity. Worn hammers affect tone on acoustics.
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/04/18 01:25 PM
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Curious you dislike the N1 action. I have tested it and was very found of it. It is quite firm. Perhaps that’s what you dislike.

As I hinted at in my write up, it could have been my fault, not the action’s. It could be that I’m simply not used to a real grand action, so it “felt” strange. And I played “cold”, so that could also have been the reason for my problems in fast passages. I could have tested again, but I’m not really interested in the Avant Grands right now. They are outdated and too expensive compared with the NV10 (even the outdated N2 is still 2600€ more than the NV10 and I expect that the eventual N2X will be even more expensive - and it doesn’t even exist yet).
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/04/18 01:28 PM
I felt $12k street, give or take, would be well-positioned in the market. You can always see if your dealer has room to move on that, too.

If you really like the action of the AG N1/N2, don't mind the old sound engine (zero resonance, etc.) And can get them at discount, then the NV10 will seem expensive and not worth it.

But if you felt the AG action wasn't for you, the question is if you would pay a ~10-20% premium for an action you really like and modern sound engine, and that might be an outright bargain.

Real and sale prices on these hybrids vary so much that I suspect there will be some people getting NV10s for cheaper than they can get an N2 locally.
Posted By: bSharp(C)yclist Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/04/18 01:32 PM
Originally Posted by Pete14
After playing this instrument, and compared to AvantGrand, what would you consider to be a fair street price?


Good question. It will be 12K here in the US to start I think. At least one dealer said that to me. Is it worth 4K more over the AvantGrand N2? I guess that depends on the individual. It's certainly newer, has better digital technology I guess. The action? Won't know until I try it when it comes in the store. This can be tricky because we often like things not because we like them, because we want to like them and rationalize reasons to do so.

I really like the action of the N2, it's consistent with what I practice with at the music school. But the school seems biased towards Yamaha. So when I go to test the NV10, I may be biased and try to find reasons to not like it, to justify the Yamaha I have now laugh
Posted By: Cosi Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/04/18 03:20 PM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
What it doesn't feel like is a light, airy action on an Shigeru or Bosendorfer 214/280. Could it be better? Sure


OK what you are trying to say here is that the action of the Novus is kinda heavy and it's not so enjoyable to play. Why can't they make a pleasant, light action ? It's not like they couldn't do it, technically.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/04/18 03:31 PM
I can't speak for you, but that isn't what I am saying at all.

If you play on a GL, GX, a Yamaha CxX, a M&H, or anything else, you may absolutely love the Novus action (I actually do love it, it's downright fantastic). I just happen to have the privilege of playing some amazing grands that are far it of my league, and note that the Novus doesn't feel identical to those (why should it?).

I don't think at all that it is "practice" grade action, unless a 7ft GX-5 is only good as a practice instrument?
Posted By: Cosi Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/04/18 03:53 PM
I just edited my message. Practice is not a good argument, my teacher have a Wilh.Steinberg grand and the action is very heavy, and it's not her practice instrument. But she "had" to choose a heavy action because she plays on many different instruments for her concerts. I never played Yamaha or Kawai grands, only the Schimmel of my previous teacher years ago which was kinda sluggish, and the Steinberg of my present teacher and I'm not a fan, this is very heavy for me, but good for control. I just need to find a Novus somewhere to try it I guess, just hoping it will not be too stiff and heavy for me.
Posted By: karvala Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/04/18 04:28 PM
Originally Posted by Gombessa

6. I've spent a similar amount of time with the Avent Grands before and like Jobert, I was surprised to not really care for the action. It is stiffer than a typical Yamaha Grand like a C3X, the keydip felt shallow, and I came away thinking it felt way more like an NU1 action than any grand I have ever played.


I think that's a very interesting point. Yamaha have not, to my knowledge at least, stated a specific grand mechanism from which their AvantGrand action is taken. That does make me suspect that it was put together specifically for the AvantGrands, and as such you have to question the extent to which it is a real grand action. The NV10 explicitly uses the Millennium III action, and from your description, does indeed feel like a GL-30 acoustic grand which uses that action.

From what you and Jobert have said, it seems that Kawai have once again taken the lead on keyboard action. Now they just need to sort out marketing, distribution and electronics. laugh
Posted By: Bambers Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/04/18 05:10 PM
Seems rather unlikely that yamaha would have made a new parts for a line as small as the AGs. I can't see why it wouldn't be the same action as used in their grands.

However the keysticks on the AGs are pretty short, plus the hammer/counterweight balance might be adjusted slightly to account for the lack of dampers. The regulation may be different too.

Similarly with the top end shigeru the action should be the same, however on a 9ft EX the key-sticks are necessarily rather long and SKs may well be regulated to a more exacting standard. Particularly a hybrid like a novus will be expected to last years without maintenance and as such the regulation cannot be as exact as a piano that is going to get attention before every performance, but the same applies to smaller 'every day' grands as well.
Posted By: Osho Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/04/18 05:10 PM
Originally Posted by karvala
From what you and Jobert have said, it seems that Kawai have once again taken the lead on keyboard action. Now they just need to sort out marketing, distribution and electronics. laugh


And quality control of course smile..

I find Kawai's pianos themselves are really great - I am a big fan. I own Kawai CA67 and I have recommended it to several friends/online. But the quality control and the business side seem so disorganized. NV10 US pricing PR mess at NAMM is one example. All different Kawai regional sites have their own websites - which are subpar comapred to Kawai global site - especially look at Kawai US website. Kawai Europe and other 'local' Kawai subsidiaries seem to create their own play-only PR material for internet (which doesn't make any sense given it is world-wide Internet!) - why isn't there a single Youtube channel giving the best information?

Osho
Posted By: Osho Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/04/18 05:12 PM
PianoManChuck reviews Novus NV10 and is his 'Pick Of The Year' for Hybrid piano category. He says MSRP is $16K...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ags7o029Fk

Osho
Posted By: PianoZac Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/04/18 08:52 PM
While I agree with the sentiments of many on here in regards to the sound of the AvantGrand, I have to disagree on the action. I owned an N1 in 2011, then bought an RX-2 in 2013, then had to downsize due to kids back to the N1. It feels just like an Acoustic, as it should. Nearly all action parts are what you find in other Yamaha acoustic grands. It is lighter than the action was on my Kawai. Actions are subjective and acoustic actions vary enormously between brands and age, prep, etc. while I personally think the NV10 is a better instrument than the N1/N2 due to the sound engine, all else is basically at parity with Yamaha’s nearly 10 year old tech (Yamaha AvantGrand N3 launched in 2008). This is no knock on Kawai either.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/04/18 09:55 PM
I mostly agree with PianoZac. There isn't any real indication that Yamaha's is using anything other than a real grand action in the AG, and I'm sure it's just as authentic as Kawai's. Most differences will be due to preference at this point.
Posted By: upbeat Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/04/18 11:38 PM
Well, to be fair, it's not like acoustic piano action has seen drastic changes in the past 10/20 years. If Yamaha's action was authentic when the AG series first came out, there's no reason why it should feel outdated today (sound engince is another story). I remember playing a C3 and an N3 side by side a couple of years ago, and they felt quite similar.
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/05/18 05:24 AM
Hello JoBert,

Thank you very much for your extremely detailed post. I'm obviously delighted to read that you enjoyed playing the NV10 - congratulations on your purchase!

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/05/18 05:31 AM
Hello Osho,

Originally Posted by Osho
Kawai Europe and other 'local' Kawai subsidiaries seem to create their own play-only PR material for internet (which doesn't make any sense given it is world-wide Internet!) - why isn't there a single Youtube channel giving the best information?


May I ask you to clarify what you mean by "play-only PR material"?

Also, I established a Kawai Pianos Global YouTube channel a few months ago intended for hosting non-Japanese videos created by Kawai Japan. I handed responsibility over to one of my colleagues in order to concentrate on some other projects, however perhaps I should think about preparing some videos myself - any thoughts/suggestions?

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: Osho Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/05/18 07:06 AM
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Hello Osho,

Originally Posted by Osho
Kawai Europe and other 'local' Kawai subsidiaries seem to create their own play-only PR material for internet (which doesn't make any sense given it is world-wide Internet!) - why isn't there a single Youtube channel giving the best information?


May I ask you to clarify what you mean by "play-only PR material"?

I mean videos that are primarily just playing the Piano - so they do not have any language needing translation.

Originally Posted by Kawai James

Also, I established a Kawai Pianos Global YouTube channel a few months ago intended for hosting non-Japanese videos created by Kawai Japan. I handed responsibility over to one of my colleagues in order to concentrate on some other projects, however perhaps I should think about preparing some videos myself - any thoughts/suggestions?

Kind regards,
James
xc


My suggestion would be that there is a single youtube channel for all 'official' Kawai PR material - with translations/dubbing for videos that are in different language.

If one searches for Kawai Novus NV10 on youtube, there are videos from Kawai Europe, Kawai Spain (the same video that is on Kawai Pianos Global - even though it needs no translation!), Kawai Russia (where your voice is dubbed in russian!) and of course Kawai Globals.

It almost seems there is no cohesive strategy on how to market Kawai vidoes globally - every local regional subsidiary is free to choose what they want.

This was also evident in more serious matters than PR, e.g. the whole NV10 MSRP mess for US market at NAMM.

Basically, there doesn't really seem collaboration/communication with Kawai Japan and the regional subsidiaries.

Osho

PS: I am sorry we are going a little off-topic here.
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/05/18 08:08 AM
Osho, thank you for your reply.

You raise some interesting points, however, as you say this is veering somewhat off-topic, so it's probably best if I respond to you via a PM.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: Osho Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/05/18 05:05 PM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
8. The 20k price from NAMM isn't a thing. All the dealers i talked to who have ordered the nv10 have been consistent even before NAMM on price being in the $12k ballpark (some say a little more, some a little less) so I think the higher list price is just a way to display a big discount to the buyer.

Did the dealers say $12K street or MSRP price?

Thanks,
Osho
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/05/18 05:30 PM
Originally Posted by Osho

Did the dealers say $12K street or MSRP price?


More likely street price. I never got a consistent answer about MSRP (and in my discussions it didn't make a whole lot of sense to press the issue since it's largely irrelevant). Some said around 16000, others said 17000-19000, but all said "but we'll be selling it for around 12,000-12,999" right out the gate, so I assume that's a good data point for street price, and starting point for negotiations?
Posted By: bSharp(C)yclist Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/05/18 05:39 PM
I heard nearly the same numbers as Gombessa. This is coming from a location in Orange County.
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/05/18 06:46 PM
My Novus has arrived today and is looking mighty fine:

[Linked Image]

Alas, I don't dare to switch it on yet. It has been on a truck for several days now and was thoroughly chilled down. There's heavy condensation (the keys even have a slightly wet feeling) and I don't dare to connect it to the power mains or switch it on, as I guess that the condensation inside, on the electronics, is likely just as bad. So I have to wait until tomorrow until I dare to actually play it! cry
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/05/18 07:03 PM
Beautiful!
Thanks for the hands-on review and picture. Keep us updated with further impressions once you’ve had time to play it for a few hours.
Posted By: Osho Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/05/18 07:34 PM
Beautiful!! Congratulations!!!

Did it arrive assembled or did you have to assemble it yourself?

Thanks
Osho
Posted By: newer player Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/05/18 07:45 PM
I wondered if the piano makers shipped overseas via refrigerated container to maintain some control of temperature, humidity, salty air, etc.
Posted By: pwl Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/05/18 07:51 PM
Originally Posted by JoBert
Alas, I don't dare to switch it on yet. ... So I have to wait until tomorrow until I dare to actually play it!

I'd have the self-discipline to not switch it on til tomorrow . . . but no way I could resist some "silent playing" tonight!
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/05/18 08:02 PM
Originally Posted by Osho
Did it arrive assembled or did you have to assemble it yourself?

It came in two huge boxes. One very huge one that contained the main body. And another one, a bit smaller but still large, that contained the base (the back part with the subwoofer and the pedals) plus the two front legs.
You need to attach the two legs to the base to assemble a sort of three legged "table" and then put the main unit on top. My delivery included assembly by the delivery people, but I heavily assisted them, as I had compulsively read the assembly instructions about five times (in two languages) and they of course hadn't (first of all because they are handymen who of course don't have to read instructions, ever, and second because this was of course the first NV10 they have ever delivered).
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/05/18 08:08 PM
Congrats! Nice looking piano in a very nice and cozy looking room! May you have great pleasure with that piano!
Posted By: terminaldegree Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/05/18 08:08 PM
Cool. Nice bench, by the way.
Posted By: mcoll Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/05/18 09:01 PM
It does look fantastic! And I also admired the bench. Didn't pay much attention to the room though, but now that CyberGene pointed it out, let's imagine an acoustic next to the fireplace - I'm sure it would love the warmth and temperature changes *wink wink*
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/05/18 09:22 PM
Originally Posted by mcoll
It does look fantastic! And I also admired the bench.

Yes, my wonderful Andexinger bench. My christmas gift from 2016. I'm very happy with it and agree, it matches well with the NV10.

Quote
Didn't pay much attention to the room though, but now that CyberGene pointed it out, let's imagine an acoustic next to the fireplace - I'm sure it would love the warmth and temperature changes *wink wink*

Ha! Fortunately that's a decorative ethanol fireplace without a chimney. I'm planning to move it further along the wall. Not just because of the heat near the piano, but also because it's simply too close purely for visual/layout reasons.
Posted By: Osho Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/05/18 09:34 PM
Originally Posted by JoBert
So I have to wait until tomorrow until I dare to actually play it! cry


You are a patient man!!!

Osho
Posted By: JoeT Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/05/18 09:38 PM
Interesting review. I would be interested in how it compares to a baby grand piano with the silent option.
Posted By: kiwibd Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/05/18 10:33 PM
Originally Posted by karvala



I think that's a very interesting point. Yamaha have not, to my knowledge at least, stated a specific grand mechanism from which their AvantGrand action is taken. That does make me suspect that it was put together specifically for the AvantGrands, and as such you have to question the extent to which it is a real grand action. The NV10 explicitly uses the Millennium III action, and from your description, does indeed feel like a GL-30 acoustic grand which uses that action.

From what you and Jobert have said, it seems that Kawai have once again taken the lead on keyboard action. Now they just need to sort out marketing, distribution and electronics. laugh


This is just a marketing strategy. Kawai explicitly says they use Millennium III action for most of their acoustic grand pianos. Such a statement is not necessary. I have tried the N2 and N3 and their action feels very nice and authentic. I am confident of what I am saying as I was a piano major in the university.

Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/06/18 12:08 AM
Originally Posted by JoeT
Interesting review. I would be interested in how it compares to a baby grand piano with the silent option.


I tested it against a GL-30 ATX and a couple of GXs, and other than texture of the keys (the blacks are matte plastic-ish on the NV10 and the GX had ivory-feel whites), the NV10 felt remarkably identical to the acoustics. I really think you're getting exactly what you would expect action-wise, it doesn't feel like a "baby grand" but that could be because Kawai's actions feel consistent through much of their range?

For me, this is in contrast to the AvantGrands, which also have real acoustic actions but didn't feel very similar at all to a C3X or C7 when I tried it (but did feel similar to a GB1K).
Posted By: JoeT Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/06/18 12:32 AM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by JoeT
Interesting review. I would be interested in how it compares to a baby grand piano with the silent option.


I tested it against a GL-30 ATX and a couple of GXs.

I really think you're getting exactly what you would expect action-wise, it doesn't feel like a "baby grand" but that could be because Kawai's actions feel consistent through much of their range?

I'm interested in how the the whole package (action and sound, over headphones and into the room) compares to a baby grand with silent in the same price range, because that is what the Novus is competing against (while conventional digital pianos compete against upright pianos in the same price range). I see no point in putting a GX grand against it.
Posted By: Kenny Cheng Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/06/18 01:37 AM
Congratulations on your purchase.

The bench looks like a Andexinger Bench.

Is it standard that comes with NV10?
Posted By: David B Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/06/18 07:14 AM
Wow! What an absolutely beautiful piano. It seems to me that the NV10 might be the pinnacle of digital greatness.

Congratulations.

God Bless,
David
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/06/18 08:27 AM
Originally Posted by JoeT
I'm interested in how the the whole package (action and sound, over headphones and into the room) compares to a baby grand with silent in the same price range, because that is what the Novus is competing against.

I cannot speak about how they compare, because I never tested a baby grand with silent, but I can say that, at least here in Germany, there actually isn't a fair competition between the two, because here those two are not in the same price range: At Thomann, the GL10 with ATX2 currently costs 13,000€ (down from 16,900€ MSRP), the NV10 only 9,000€ (down from 9,590€ MSRP, all prices with tax included). So the GL10ATX2 is almost 50% more expensive than the NV10 at street price (and even more so at list price).

Originally Posted by Kenny Cheng
The bench looks like a Andexinger Bench.

Is it standard that comes with NV10?

Good eyes. Yes it is indeed an Andexinger. But no, it didn't come with the piano, I already had it before.
Posted By: PianoGuyStuart Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/06/18 01:10 PM
Originally Posted by JoBert
My Novus has arrived today and is looking mighty fine:

[Linked Image]

Alas, I don't dare to switch it on yet. It has been on a truck for several days now and was thoroughly chilled down. There's heavy condensation (the keys even have a slightly wet feeling) and I don't dare to connect it to the power mains or switch it on, as I guess that the condensation inside, on the electronics, is likely just as bad. So I have to wait until tomorrow until I dare to actually play it! cry


Looks great. Congratulations!

Still think it's odd though that they didn't 'polish' the back part. When you look at the shape of it it really could be in the middle of the room (as an option anyway), if they had simply polished the back.

Have you got a picture of the back part we could look at? Be interesting to see how the shipped version ended up looking from the back.
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/06/18 01:40 PM
Originally Posted by PianoGuyStuart
Have you got a picture of the back part we could look at? Be interesting to see how the shipped version ended up looking from the back.

I don't have a picture handy right now (could post one later), but I can already tell you, that the back side is definitely not meant to be looked at. It's fine for such cases of minor exposure as mine (if you check the picture), where I can walk behind the piano to get access to the book case, at which point I'll of course have the back side in my view, but I would never turn it around to face the room.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/06/18 01:49 PM
Here is a not so great angle of the back I snapped:

[Linked Image]

I will say it is very similar to other hybrids in this sense. There's an NU1 I play that is also positioned facing the room, and the back is similarly unfinished with a cord sticking out the bottom. I guess it's just a thing with these upright format DPs...

The ironic thing is stage pianos/slabs meant to fact the audience sometimes have lights and rainbow displays dancing around a huge logo on the back smile
Posted By: newer player Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/06/18 03:09 PM
The back is rather unseemly. The fix is easy, albeit silly for a 10.000 euro box.

You could just take two pieces of thin wood or metal, bond them together like a "T" in the shape of the back panel. Then paint with some glossy paint & clear coat from an auto shop.

Alternatively, you could just have a local auto body shop do the painting and baking for pro work.

Another option is to buy some Lexan in black color. But that is rather delicate, is rather expensive and will easily scratch.
Posted By: Galuwen Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/06/18 03:18 PM
Or put some tour stickers on the back....
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/06/18 03:28 PM
Originally Posted by newer player
The back is rather unseemly. The fix is easy, albeit silly for a 10.000 euro box.

You could just take two pieces of thin wood or metal, bond them together like a "T" in the shape of the back panel.


I have to admit, I've thought the same. Unscrew the matte back boards, clear coat them generously, and have a more uniform look overall?

In my brief time with the NV10, my thoughts about its greatest drawbacks are:

1. Yes, the back is unfinished and wouldn't look very nice in a position where the pianist is facing the audience.

2. The music rest seems like a complete afterthought. It has two very basic screwed-in hinges, and a small, adjustable height stop. And what's more baffling is that the music rest occludes much of the two back speakers when it's laid down flat. It doesn't seem to impact the performance of the speakers, but it's practically impossible not to notice.
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/06/18 03:34 PM
To be honest, I have toyed with the idea of ordering a sheet of plexiglas/perspex in the size of the upper back panel (you can easily order this stuff online, cut to size) and replace the panel with it, so that one can view the action mechanics from the outside. What's stopping me from this craziness right now is, that I wouldn't be able to see it anyway, when sitting in front and playing. smile
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/06/18 03:37 PM
Yeah, you'd not only need to replace the front panel, but also the fallboard in order to see the action at work while playing :P First world problems, eh?
Posted By: Osho Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/06/18 04:00 PM
Have you turned it on yet? 😀😀

Thanks
Osho
Posted By: jfl Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/06/18 05:30 PM
Please, Please, Please. After you've had some time with it, would it be possible to upload some sound samples directly miked from the speaker system (preferably classical content or alternatively jazz) to SoundCloud?

(If I get one of these, the top half of the back will be exposed to the room. I'll be pinning a light tapestry to that.)
Posted By: Cosi Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/06/18 06:09 PM
The music rest looks a little bit high, is it a problem for you ?
Posted By: JoeT Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/06/18 06:14 PM
Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by JoeT
I'm interested in how the the whole package (action and sound, over headphones and into the room) compares to a baby grand with silent in the same price range, because that is what the Novus is competing against.

I cannot speak about how they compare, because I never tested a baby grand with silent, but I can say that, at least here in Germany, there actually isn't a fair competition between the two, because here those two are not in the same price range: At Thomann, the GL10 with ATX2 currently costs 13,000€ (down from 16,900€ MSRP), the NV10 only 9,000€ (down from 9,590€ MSRP, all prices with tax included). So the GL10ATX2 is almost 50% more expensive than the NV10 at street price (and even more so at list price).

Remove the silent option and you're down to 10k. Similar enough. The expensive part is the grand action, so first question for me is: Why not go all the way? (I know, space constraints. wink )

Having to pay up for going from a digital with a grand action all the way to a complete grand piano (with a digital included) is expected. Nothing wrong with that.

High-end digitals are in some ways superior to cheap upright pianos. So that is why I'm interested in: How does the Novus compare to entry-level baby grands? In silent mode and played aloud. Saloon grands and up don't matter, we know no digital can beat them.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/06/18 06:19 PM
Originally Posted by JoeT
So that is why I'm interested in: How does the Novus compare to entry-level baby grands? I silent mode and played aloud. Saloon grands and up don't matter, we know no digital can keep beat them.


So, action-wise at least versus a GL-10, it'll be more or less identical. That I can say from firsthand experience.

I think most of your question will hinge on the speakers/amplification.

Headphones will sound the same if using the same tone generator (but note that the Pianist Mode in the NV-10 is more advanced than what's currently available in the Anytime modules).

Playing the acoustic in silent mode with speakers seems kind of pointless to me, though there is that option. Maybe if you need to monitor MIDI recording real-time, or play along with a backing track?

Playing an NV-10 through speakers, compared to a GL-10 played acoustically, is probably the big question. I didn't compare this directly, other than to note that the NV-10 can get a lot louder than I thought it would.
Posted By: madshi Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/06/18 06:51 PM
Originally Posted by JoBert
As I hinted at in my write up, it could have been my fault, not the action’s. It could be that I’m simply not used to a real grand action, so it “felt” strange. And I played “cold”, so that could also have been the reason for my problems in fast passages. I could have tested again [...]

Haha. When starting to read your review, I was thinking: After you played the NV10 and got used to the action, now PLEASE go back to the N1 and check if you like it better now. So sad you didn't... wink
Posted By: JoeT Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/06/18 07:20 PM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
So, action-wise at least versus a GL-10, it'll be more or less identical. That I can say from firsthand experience.

The feel should be identical, as it's advertised as almost the same action. However how do the keyboard sensors compare? Same system? More accurate on one of them?

Quote
Headphones will sound the same if using the same tone generator (but note that the Pianist Mode in the NV-10 is more advanced than what's currently available in the Anytime modules).

Should come out the same minus some DP advancements here and there, but that needs to be verified first hand, too.

However once you have MIDI in your piano action, you can go with any virtual or physical digital instrument and compare them directly to the real thing on the same action. Even at the same time.

Quote
Playing the acoustic in silent mode with speakers seems kind of pointless to me, though there is that option.

I agree, nobody does that. You usually install a transducer onto the soundboard if you want projection for your digital sounds. Some people even find it pointless to play with headphones on a silent piano, but even in quiet hours with digital sound production you're still sitting at and playing a grand. So instead of moving over to some DP slab in your bedroom while the grand collects dust, you actually put some practice time into your piano.

Quote
Playing an NV-10 through speakers, compared to a GL-10 played acoustically, is probably the big question. I didn't compare this directly, other than to note that the NV-10 can get a lot louder than I thought it would.

Yes, that's the other very interesting question. What sounds better and more real[tm]? wink
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/06/18 07:29 PM
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Gombessa
So, action-wise at least versus a GL-10, it'll be more or less identical. That I can say from firsthand experience.

The feel should be identical, as it's advertised as almost the same action. However how do the keyboard sensors compare? Same system? More accurate on one of them?


Take this for the hearsay it is, but I think Kawai James said before that he thinks it uses the exact same IHSS sensor setup as on the AnytimeX grand silent systems. The images on the Kawai site of the sensor rail, the optical shutters on the hammers, etc., seem to bear this out as well.

Originally Posted by JoeT

Quote
Headphones will sound the same if using the same tone generator (but note that the Pianist Mode in the NV-10 is more advanced than what's currently available in the Anytime modules).

Should come out the same minus some DP advancements here and there, but that needs to be verified first hand, too.

While I think you should definitely verify for yourself, I did test this and found it to be the case. The ATX through headphones sounds just like my MP11, I'm not sure if Concert EX is a default piano or anything. I know there's some special Onkyo magic in the NV-10 so it may sound better, but you'll need someone who is way more of an audiophile than I am to determine that smile

Originally Posted by JoeT
Quote
Playing an NV-10 through speakers, compared to a GL-10 played acoustically, is probably the big question. I didn't compare this directly, other than to note that the NV-10 can get a lot louder than I thought it would.

Yes, that's the other very interesting question. What sounds better and more real[tm]? wink


I'm going to go out on a limb and say, if I could have a grand in my house and was limited to <$15,000 budget, I would take a 5ft GL-10 in a heartbeat over the NV-10. Yes, it's a small grand and won't have the volume or deep bass of a larger piano, but it's still a true acoustic instrument, with all of the complexity and richness that brings. I got the NV-10 mainly because a grand is NOT an option, I really wanted as authentic an action as possible, and if I do graduate to an acoustic piano at some point, I like to think I'll be aiming for a 6-7ft (after putting in a few thousand more overtime hours).

Posted By: JoeT Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/06/18 07:47 PM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
I'm going to go out on a limb and say, if I could have a grand in my house and was limited to <$15,000 budget, I would take a 5ft GL-10 in a heartbeat over the NV-10. Yes, it's a small grand and won't have the volume or deep bass of a larger piano, but it's still a true acoustic instrument, with all of the complexity and richness that brings. I got the NV-10 mainly because a grand is NOT an option, I really wanted as authentic an action as possible, and if I do graduate to an acoustic piano at some point, I like to think I'll be aiming for a 6-7ft (after putting in a few thousand more overtime hours).

Kawai actually wants us to buy grand pianos. That's why they put out flagship digitals like the NV10, so they can upsell us to grands. That kind of psychology works, as this thread shows. Last year I was considering a CA17, now I'm looking into the GL series already.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/06/18 09:04 PM
Originally Posted by Osho
Have you turned it on yet? 😀😀

Yes, I have. And it's working. cool Why do you think I haven't shown up in the thread here earlier? wink

He he. I am still in "evaluation mode", meaning, I'm not yet able to just engross myself into the music, as I'm still listening to every tiny sound detail (is that an aliquot resonance I hear there?) and paying attention to every tiny touch difference (hmm, the black keys are smooooth) and constantly think about settings (should I try a different velocity curve? how about a different rendering character?). That is really distracting!

I can say that it is definitely very different than my CA97, and there are lots of things I have to get used to until they are my new "normal".

For example:

The feel of the action. About this I am actually very excited. The action feels very good to me, and my impression from my testing on Saturday has been confirmed, that I feel that I have more control in fast passages and fast ornaments. The action gives me a "rich" and "flush" sensation. It seems to "stick" to my fingers (I'm exaggerating of course, but this is difficult to describe) and especially when playing mf/f/ff feels very substantial and when it bottoms out it somehow manages to feel soft but without feeling squishy. Since the real grand action was the main reason to buy the Novus, I'm very happy how this turned out.

The pedal is further back below the piano (which is probably more realistic compared to an acoustic grand?), so I have to hold my leg differently. This I haven't gotten used to yet, but I'm sure it's just a matter of time and then I'll feel that the pedal on the CA97 (or comparable) is too close.

The speaker sound. This is where I'm encountering the biggest difference. On the CA97, the sound comes at me like a "wall" that surrounds me, so that I feel that I sit in a sound field. With the NV10, the sound is more indirect. It spreads into the room and I hear it with a bit more distance, not so directly as with the CA97. I don't have enough experience with an acoustic grand, but I can imagine that there the sound is also more indirect? Maybe it's also only because the CA97 is in front of a wall that can reflect the sound immediately, while the Novus is in the corner that you see on my picture. I may yet try it in front of the wall to hear if that makes a difference. Anyway, to be honest, right now, after only a good hour or so on speakers (before I had to switch to headphones) I'm still missing that "sound field" that my CA97 gives me.
On the other hand, the sound of the Novus is clearer. Where the "sound field" washes the sound into a big whole, the more indirect sound of the Novus allows me to hear single notes in a harmony or chord more clearly. I'm not willing to make a judgement which of the two is "better", but right now I'm definitely still more used to the sound "style" of the CA97, and it will take some time to get used to the new style of the Novus.

The noise that the action makes when I play with headphones is quite a bit louder with the Novus than it was with the CA97. Those real hammers, wippens and damper weights make much more noise. And I have to learn to release the pedal less abruptly, because if all these damper weights fall down at once, you can hear the thump.

Originally Posted by jfl
Please, Please, Please. After you've had some time with it, would it be possible to upload some sound samples directly miked from the speaker system (preferably classical content or alternatively jazz) to SoundCloud?

I have no mic to do so. The only way I could make such a recording would be directly with the smart phone. Which would be in such a bad quality, that it would be useless for any kind of evaluation.

Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by JoeT
The feel should be identical, as it's advertised as almost the same action. However how do the keyboard sensors compare? Same system? More accurate on one of them?

Take this for the hearsay it is, but I think Kawai James said before that he thinks it uses the exact same IHSS sensor setup as on the AnytimeX grand silent systems.

I remember that too. I'm pretty sure that James wrote that the sensors are exactly those of the ATX2 AnytimeX system.

Originally Posted by JoeT
Quote
Playing an NV-10 through speakers, compared to a GL-10 played acoustically, is probably the big question. I didn't compare this directly, other than to note that the NV-10 can get a lot louder than I thought it would.

Yes, that's the other very interesting question. What sounds better and more real[tm]? wink

Sorry that I cannot be of help with this. I have very little experience with grands at all (mainly only the few tests I did at Thomann last weekend) and there the smallest was a GL-30, and even for that the details have faded so much in my memory, that I can't really compare it in a meaningful way to how the NV10 sounds here in my living room. Except for that I remember that indeed the max volume seemed about comparable (as I wrote in my first post).
Posted By: Alexander Borro Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/06/18 09:05 PM
Originally Posted by JoeT

Kawai actually wants us to buy grand pianos. That's why they put out flagship digitals like the NV10, so they can upsell us to grands. That kind of psychology works, as this thread shows. Last year I was considering a CA17, now I'm looking into the GL series already.


Kind of offtopic, sorry Jobert, hope you are enjoying the Novus smile

I wouldn't restrict yourself to just having a Kawai vision, I am not saying you are, but if prices are anything like the UK, the Feurich and Hailun models I liked more than the GL 10, GL 30 pianos, as for Hailun I am saying that of without having tried them, but heard some demos, very nice, but the Feurich range is made in the same factory, same design, have more of that European sound if that is your cuppa. Sure it is a matter of taste, but the cheaper Kawais ( GL series ) lack a bit depth and warmth in tone IMHO and have more of that metallic twang in the same sizes.

in the UK you could buy this at this price to compete with the GL 10.

https://www.broughtonpianos.co.uk/hailun-grand-pianos

If my experience with the Feurich 161 and 178 is anything to go by then I'd pick that quite comfortably. I am no expert, but if the other subforums are anything to go by it does seem with Hailun and Feurich you are getting a lot of piano for the money these days it seems to me, compared to yamaha and kawai that is in that price range.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/06/18 09:20 PM
Originally Posted by JoBert
On the CA97, the sound comes at me like a "wall" that surrounds me, so that I feel that I sit in a sound field. With the NV10, the sound is more indirect. It spreads into the room and I hear it with a bit more distance, not so directly as with the CA97. I don't have enough experience with an acoustic grand, but I can imagine that there the sound is also more indirect? Maybe it's also only because the CA97 is in front of a wall that can reflect the sound immediately, while the Novus is in the corner that you see on my picture.


Nice, glad you're enjoying the new piano!

FWIW, I've always felt that way about grands. When I was a kid, we moved from an old Baldwin upright to a baby grand, and I recall specifically thinking that it wasn't quite as loud (probably because I'm no longer sitting directly in front of the soundboard). Unless the grand is in a very small room, I've never felt even larger 7fters being *too* loud, though it has been overpowering in occasion for others in the same room.

I recall several people making the same comment about the N2 and the N3 too, that the N2 had speakers more directly positioned at the pianist.
Posted By: JoeT Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/06/18 09:53 PM
Originally Posted by Alexander Borro
I wouldn't restrict yourself to just having a Kawai vision, I am not saying you are, but if prices are anything like the UK, the Feurich and Hailun models I liked more than the GL 10, GL 30 pianos, as for Hailun I am saying that of without having tried them, but heard some demos, very nice, but the Feurich range is made in the same factory, same design, have more of that European sound if that is your cuppa. Sure it is a matter of taste, but the cheaper Kawais ( GL series ) lack a bit depth and warmth in tone IMHO and have more of that metallic twang in the same sizes.

That's alright, Yamaha is still in the race, too. wink But beyond the Japanese brands the choice of affordable APs with proper MIDI output and up to date digital sound modules is pretty thin.

Quote
If my experience with the Feurich 161 and 178 is anything to go by then I'd pick that quite comfortably. I am no expert, but if the other subforums are anything to go by it does seem with Hailun and Feurich you are getting a lot of piano for the money these days it seems to me, compared to yamaha and kawai that is in that price range.

If I had the (sound-proof) space and budget, I would go for a properly refurbished German saloon grand and use it day and night. There are glorious used pianos out there just waiting for a new owner. But they're all too big, too loud and (for the well known brands) still too expensive. Also there are gorgeous sounding and loud upright pianos - thanks to their huge soundboard, but put them in an apartment and you get in trouble if you use them too often. Once you silence them, you deal with the inferior upright action.

So here we are looking for "a little bit more than just a digital", which is the audience the so-called "hybrid piano" is aimed at. I like to discuss and compare them to their nearest relatives.
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/06/18 09:58 PM
Since I know that the forum here is a bit obsessive about such details, and just for the fun of it, tried to measure the pivot lenght of my NV10. smile
Unfortunately I could only measure up to the front edge of the key button (the little wooden "hump" an top of the keystick that strengthens the keystick around the balance pin). At the C4, the distance from the front edge of the key (including the little overhanging plastic lip of the white keytop) to the front edge of the key button is exactly 22.5cm (8.85827 inch). So the pivot length is a few cm more, depending on how long the key button is, and where in the button the balance pin is.
Posted By: EssBrace Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/06/18 09:59 PM
Originally Posted by Alexander Borro
I wouldn't restrict yourself to just having a Kawai vision, I am not saying you are, but if prices are anything like the UK, the Feurich and Hailun models I liked more than the GL 10, GL 30 pianos, as for Hailun I am saying that of without having tried them, but heard some demos, very nice, but the Feurich range is made in the same factory, same design, have more of that European sound if that is your cuppa. Sure it is a matter of taste, but the cheaper Kawais ( GL series ) lack a bit depth and warmth in tone IMHO and have more of that metallic twang in the same sizes.


I think the Feurich 178 and 179 are the best 'bang for buck' in new grand pianos now. For the same price you can only get entry level (new) Yamahas and Kawais. I think the Feurich is the superior instrument by some margin.
Posted By: jfl Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/06/18 10:02 PM
The music rest and pedal placement seems very comparable to the N2. I use a K&M tabletop music stand at home and always have a bit of adjustment when I play a Yamaha grand at my lessons reading music as there's more head movement going between music and hands. But the NV10 is realistic and that regard. I always pull the music stand as far forward as possible on an acoustic grand and that appears to be the position on the NV10. Comparing photos, the NV10 music stand seems to be a bit wider than the N2. I would always have the stand upright. Still would love to hear the sound through the speakers, but I might have to wait until my dealer gets one. Would also be very curious to know how this works as a MIDI controller with sound going back through the internal audio system.
Posted By: Osho Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/06/18 10:22 PM
Originally Posted by JoeT
Kawai actually wants us to buy grand pianos. That's why they put out flagship digitals like the NV10, so they can upsell us to grands. That kind of psychology works, as this thread shows. Last year I was considering a CA17, now I'm looking into the GL series already.

[Linked Image]

Ha ha... be careful where you are heading to smile Pretty soon you will find that no grand piano less than 7' has satisfactory bass and there you go up one notch in your budget!! Speaking from experience....

Osho
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/06/18 10:30 PM
Originally Posted by Cosi
The music rest looks a little bit high, is it a problem for you ?

I forgot to answer this (thanks to jfl for reminding me). It is indeed higher and a bit further away than that of the CA97, but I think it's realistic for a grand. It's not a problem, but yes, it's also one of the things I have to get used to. The avant grands are 7-8cm higher than the novus, iirc, so their stands should be even higher.
Posted By: bSharp(C)yclist Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/06/18 10:41 PM
Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by Cosi
The music rest looks a little bit high, is it a problem for you ?

I forgot to answer this (thanks to jfl for reminding me). It is indeed higher and a bit further away than that of the CA97, but I think it's realistic for a grand. It's not a problem, but yes, it's also one of the things I have to get used to. The avant grands are 7-8cm higher than the novus, iirc, so their stands should be even higher.


Yes, it is high on the N2, about 38.75 inches. You get used to it.
Posted By: Osho Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/07/18 04:55 PM
Originally Posted by JoBert
Since I know that the forum here is a bit obsessive about such details, and just for the fun of it, tried to measure the pivot lenght of my NV10. smile
Unfortunately I could only measure up to the front edge of the key button (the little wooden "hump" an top of the keystick that strengthens the keystick around the balance pin). At the C4, the distance from the front edge of the key (including the little overhanging plastic lip of the white keytop) to the front edge of the key button is exactly 22.5cm (8.85827 inch). So the pivot length is a few cm more, depending on how long the key button is, and where in the button the balance pin is.

How did you measure it? Did you open it up? Does that not void the warranty?

Osho
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/07/18 04:59 PM
Interesting, I missed this post!

I think the cap is called a "key button."

A 8.86" length to the key button suggests a pivot point similar to the the 9.5" length to balance pin on the Grand Feel/Grand Feel 2 actions. Perhaps a little bit longer.

But in any case, that's a genuinely "long" keystick/pivot.
Posted By: Bambers Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/07/18 05:53 PM
I think it's even longer, what are you assuming for the buttons? They're not as small as the ones on the AGs etc. A quick measure on the available images suggests around the 10-10.5 range to the white pivot depending on the assumed white key to fallboard length (which is typically 6"/15cm or slightly less).
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/07/18 06:17 PM
You might be right. I'm just ballparking it based on the image of an acoustic Millennium III at http://www.kawaius.com/technology/abs-c_action.html.

To me, that looks like ~1 to 1.5in from the front of the button to the white balance pin, and another 1in or so to the black balance pin.

Then there's the GX where the button lengths are enormous! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUCaUKdBlKU

So I imagine there's some variability in length depending on the piano...
Posted By: Bambers Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/07/18 06:34 PM
Yes, longer keys (which are needed to get the hammers to the correct strike point on the strings in longer pianos) need longer buttons to resist the keys flexing. There are some concert grands that have double reinforcement, i.e. buttons upon buttons!

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=c...6gA58Q_AUIDygA&biw=1920&bih=1106

I'm actually surprised no one's gone for carbon composite keys yet for more stiffness!
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/07/18 06:46 PM
If you guys keep talking about length and stiffness the mod is likely to jump in and shut this down. smile
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/07/18 07:32 PM
I thought I'd just piggyback on Jobert's thread rather than start another one.

Here's another Novus NV-10, this one bought and delivered in the US.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/07/18 07:54 PM
Gombessa, you actually bought one? I had no idea.
You must’ve loved it, considering you almost pulled the trigger on the AvantGrand.
Congrats!
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/07/18 08:18 PM
Gombessa, no problem with the piggybacking, that's what the thread was meant for.

It looks wonderful in your home!
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/07/18 08:32 PM
Originally Posted by Osho
How did you measure it? Did you open it up? Does that not void the warranty?

No, I did not open it. If the fallboard is closed about 80-90% and you then press the key down, you can slide a ruler in just over the key top, up to the front edge of the key button. That's also why I could only measure up to the button and not to the actual pin.

And also no: There is no clause in the warranty (either the German one that is applicable to me or the US one) that states that the warranty is voided if you open the piano. The only relevant clause says that any damage you cause while doing so is not covered by the warranty (paraphrasing).
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/07/18 08:52 PM
Originally Posted by Pete14
Gombessa, you actually bought one? I had no idea.
You must’ve loved it, considering you almost pulled the trigger on the AvantGrand.
Congrats!


Thanks! It was kind of an impulse buy, but I also feel I've spent nearly a year thinking about it.

I have to say I've been spoiled rotten by having access to some amazing grand pianos. It got to the point where I was really obsessing about the differences in feel and dynamics between various acoustics and my digital. And after comparing the NV-10 against the all the available AGs, I knew it was pretty much exactly what I wanted (unless Kawai comes out with an SK-NV next year I guess smile )

Originally Posted by JoBert

No, I did not open it. If the fallboard is closed about 80-90% and you then press the key down, you can slide a ruler in just over the key top, up to the front edge of the key button. That's also why I could only measure up to the button and not to the actual pin.

And also no: There is no clause in the warranty (either the German one that is applicable to me or the US one) that states that the warranty is voided if you open the piano. The only relevant clause says that any damage you cause while doing so is not covered by the warranty (paraphrasing).


I also noticed the fallboard seemed to have a relatively high gap when being opened/closed (meaning maybe 0.5-1mm higher than in acoustics I've seen).

And I believe that even in the US, a manufacturer can't void a warranty just because you open the case. They actually have to show that any modification you've made caused the part being warrantied to fail. So they can't say the warranty on the polished ebony is voided because you opened up the pedal unit to poke around. I think it's covered under Magnuson-Moss.
Posted By: madshi Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/07/18 09:10 PM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
And after comparing the NV-10 against the all the available AGs, I knew it was pretty much exactly what I wanted

Can you tell us your impressions on how NV-10 compares to the available AGs?
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/07/18 09:50 PM
Originally Posted by madshi
Originally Posted by Gombessa
And after comparing the NV-10 against the all the available AGs, I knew it was pretty much exactly what I wanted

Can you tell us your impressions on how NV-10 compares to the available AGs?


Oh geez, you asked for it smile

Disclaimer: I've only spent about 2 hours of playing time on the AGs (AG N1, N2, N3, N3X), and about the same time spent on the NV-10 so far.

Initial impressions
AG: I first tried the AGs first before the holidays.I had really high hopes for them because I've heard a lot about them but have never played one before. My first reaction was shock. Like "wait, what piano am I sitting at?" The keys were a tad on the stiff side, the keydip seemed a bit short, and to me the pivot felt fairly short. My very first thought was that the action felt more like an NU1 (which I have 30-40 hours on) than any Yamaha acoustic I've played (N3, C3, C3X, C7). It could just have been new, but I've been wrangling my way into trying lots of acoustic grands over the last few months and have come to trust my first impressions.

NV-10: When I first tried the NV-10 last week, I had already spent a couple of hours and sessions on various Kawai acoustic grands - the GL-10/20/30, the GX1/3/5, and the SK5/7. The NV-10 felt exactly the same as the GL/GX actions, meaning within individual variance. It was simply like playing a grand action I was familiar with, and honestly, what I was expecting to feel with the AGs. To be honest, the difference between the GL/GX actions and the SK action is night and day. I would kill for a hybrid with an SK action (or SK level regulation, whatever it is), which feels on the level of other ultra-premium large grands. But I'm not getting an SK or a 280VC, and I would love a piano with a GL or C3X action, so the NV-10 fit the bill exactly.

While playing:
AG: After the initial shock with the AGs, I moved back and forth (particularly to and from the N3X) and settled into it. It played fine. It still felt a bit odd to me, but it's by no means bad. Just, strangely, not what I was expecting. The big thing I focused on was TRS (the vibrating keys/pedal mechanism). When it triggered, it worked, but felt kind of gimmicky. It didn't seem to have any dynamics to it, just on/off. And when playing with speakers, the keys and pedal vibrate naturally anyways. The speakers generally were fantastic, no complaints, though I would mainly be using headphones (which is 90% of the reason I was looking for a hybrid to begin with)

NV-10: Nothing much to say about the NV-10. After an hour, it still felt great, and still felt like a Kawai grand. After 2 hours, I was getting tired and it was becoming painfully obvious that I didn't have 2 hours worth of repertoire memorized. But I still came away loving it. I brought my Sennheiser headphones but found I was playing through the speakers 90% of the time. Not sure if that's relevant, but it sounded good to me, and the speakers vibrated the keys and pedal realistically (just like the AG does when cranked up with TRS off).

After playing:
AG: I have to admit I came away a bit disappointed with the AGs. At first I was thinking, "If it feels anything like a C3X, I'm just going to buy the N2 for $8k and use Garritan CFX for everything." This was because I thought the N2X would be released at NAMM and the discount pricing would evaporate with the old N2 stock. After trying it, I cooled to that idea, and instead trawled CL regularly in case there were any lowball deals on N1/N2s for $3-4k, which is what I figured would be the saving required to make me forego the NV-10 in case I liked it and it cost 10-12k. I only saw one (a used N2 selling for over 7k), hybrids are real unicorns it seems. And with no N2X at NAMM, that pretty much closed the book on the Yamahas for me.

NV-10: I didn't bother waiting. It felt just like a real grand, sounded beautiful, and who knows how long I'd have to wait for another one with supposedly limited supply for the year? Plus, with no refreshed competition from Yamaha at all on the horizon, it made the choice easy. What was hard was foregoing same-day delivery because we had to go to a family dinner smile

Note - I don't mean to cast any shade on the AG, though I know my impressions may come off as a bit harsh on it. I have the luxury of being picky about the actions I've played, and have a good sense of what I prefer. I fully expect some people to come to the complete opposite conclusion I did, and that's fine smile

Posted By: madshi Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/07/18 09:56 PM
Thank you! smile

Two questions, if you don't mind:

1) Personally, I loved the AG action compared to the Kawai GFII (CA78) action. So I'm wondering, is the NV10 action nearer to the AG action or nearer to the GFII action, or completely different?

2) Did you have any chance to compare the NV10 speakers to N1, N2 and N3 speakers? Which AG would you say the NV10 speakers come closest to?
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/07/18 10:23 PM
Originally Posted by madshi

1) Personally, I loved the AG action compared to the Kawai GFII (CA78) action. So I'm wondering, is the NV10 action nearer to the AG action or nearer to the GFII action, or completely different?

I can chime in on that, although I played the N1 only for a short time (but the GFII for more than two years).

I would say the NV10 and AG actions are different, but in a similar group. The GFII is in a different group.
I'm not dissing the GFII, it's a fine action, but it's different enough.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/07/18 10:43 PM
Originally Posted by madshi
Thank you! smile

Two questions, if you don't mind:

1) Personally, I loved the AG action compared to the Kawai GFII (CA78) action. So I'm wondering, is the NV10 action nearer to the AG action or nearer to the GFII action, or completely different?

2) Did you have any chance to compare the NV10 speakers to N1, N2 and N3 speakers? Which AG would you say the NV10 speakers come closest to?


My answer here seem a bit contradictory....

But as to 1), I love the GF1 action too. It's the first digital piano action that truly let me move between an acoustic grand and the digital with almost no difference in playing technique/feel. But compared to a grand action, it doesn't feel the same (hence, the Novus I guess). So I think the NV-10 and AG actions are MUCH more similar to each other than the GF1/GF2 action is to the AG action. Perhaps the best way to describe it is that I felt the AG is a real acoustic action that I didn't personally like very much, but it is still an undeniably acoustic grand action.

2. The NV-10 and AGs were in different shops and much different spaces, so I don't think I could do a fair comparison. My guess is that the NV-10's amplification falls between the N1 and the N2, but I could be so far off base with that, that you may as well disregard it smile
Posted By: rach3master Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/07/18 10:58 PM
How is the key repetition? How fast can you reliably play repeated notes without them not sounding?
Posted By: Francis Martin Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/07/18 11:02 PM
Hello to all who are interested in the KAWAI NOVUS NV10,

following links to some new YouTube-Clips about the NV10.
The first link shows the NV10 from inside, probably for the first time.
The second and the third links show two new clips from Bonners Music.

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6lBu2L0ihs
"UNBELIEVABLE!!! Affordable Shigeru!!! Kawai Concert Digital Piano Hybrid Novus NV10"

2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mk4gOJWsRfw
"Kawai Novus NV10 Hybrid Piano | UK Buyer's Guide & Playing"

3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rNHELnuNbI
"Kawai Novus NV10 vs Yamaha AvantGrand N1 | Hybrid Piano Test"

4. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deXYQRPDSSI
"Kawai NV10 Novus"

Cheers, Frank
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/07/18 11:20 PM
Originally Posted by Francis Martin
Hello guys,
following links to some new YouTube-Clips about the NV10.
The first link shows the NV10 from inside, probably for the first time.
And there are a few new cips from Bonners Music.


Nice find, Frank! Love that they provided those interior shots.

And indeed, the key buttons are LONG, so it would seem the pivot length exceeds that of the Grand Feel:

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Loga Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/07/18 11:26 PM
Wow. This Kawai NV10 just sounds very good IMHO! More mature and full bodied than the N1! The price is quite high, but I will definitely try one (if I find a dealer near to my home).
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/07/18 11:41 PM
+1

The N1 sounded thin, digital, and all but dead compared to the Novus.
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/08/18 12:07 AM
Hello Gombessa,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts about the NV10, and the nice pictures - congratulations! wink

It's perhaps worth noting that the NV10's fallboard can be lifted out, just like an acoustic piano (i.e. there are no screws holding it in place). I'm not recommending than all NV10 owners suddenly start lifting-out the fallboard in order to see the action, or measure the pivot length, however I'm pretty sure this is how the NorCal Piano Store video (in the screenshot above) was captured.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/08/18 12:26 AM
Hello Frank,

Thank you for sharing these video links - it's great to see dealers' positive reactions to the NV10.

I particularly enjoyed the Bonners videos (recorded using 'Pianist' mode).

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/08/18 12:32 AM
Originally Posted by Loga
Wow. This Kawai NV10 just sounds very good IMHO! More mature and full bodied than the N1! The price is quite high, but I will definitely try one (if I find a dealer near to my home).


Please note that the NV10's 'Pianist' mode sound engine is also found on the CA98/CA78 digital pianos. These models all share essentially the same audio processing hardware and Onkyo technology, so will sound identical when played through headphones.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: David B Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/08/18 07:34 AM
Congratulations Gombessa on a beautiful acquisition.

These pictures you guys are posting are really making me wish I could own such an amazing piano. However, it's so far out of my budget that the closest I will come to experiencing one is only vicariously though you guys. So please post some video/recordings to satisfy my soul. smile

God Bless,
David
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/08/18 07:47 AM
Originally Posted by Francis Martin
Hello to all who are interested in the KAWAI NOVUS NV10,

following links to some new YouTube-Clips about the NV10.

Thanks Frank, for these videos.

That dealer in the first video is really enthusiastic, isn't he? ... "Would I definitely tell you that this is the first hybrid that is truly a hybrid that will blow away everybody and make everyone cry, even grown men? ... (wipes away fake tear) ... Yes! ... It will" ...

LOL!
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/08/18 08:50 AM
Originally Posted by Kawai James
It's perhaps worth noting that the NV10's fallboard can be lifted out, just like an acoustic piano (i.e. there are no screws holding it in place). I'm not recommending than all NV10 owners suddenly start lifting-out the fallboard in order to see the action, or measure the pivot length, however I'm pretty sure this is how the NorCal Piano Store video (in the screenshot above) was captured.

LOL! James, you didn't actually think that I would be able to curb my curiosity once you told me this? grin

So here it is, my NV10 with the fallboard removed (sorry for the bad quality, it's a free hand panorama I shot with my smartphone):
[Linked Image]

And a closer look:
[Linked Image]

And of course I did take the opportunity to measure the pivot length, just for the fun of it. wink

It's still a bit difficult, because of the cross bar that lies over the keys (I'm sure it has a proper piano technician name), but from my measurements, I would say that the pivot length of the white keys is ~25.75cm (give or take a millimeter or two), i.e. ~10.14".

The key button length is about 9cm (~3.54"). To me, they do look comparable to the ones in this image from the Kawai-US website, which is not from a Novus. This image is used as illustration for the GX and GL lines, where the key buttons are called "concert length key buttons" (aren't these marketing terms adorable?):
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/08/18 10:46 AM
I'm glad you did it, so that I don't have to smile

A couple of interesting notes from further play:

1. I can't really trigger a note if I strike a key exactly from the letoff; it maybe works for 1 in 10 keys? Is this normal for Kawai grands? It doesn't bother me, though I do note this behavior is almost *precisely* how my GF 1 action works and I always assumed it was some kind of oversight (because last I tried I could trigger notes on other acoustic grands, and Kawai changed this behavior for GF2).

2. There's a case for some cable management features under the chassis. I'm experimenting with running a VST through the audio in (hurray for having a separate volumes knob for this!) and the placement of the extra ports makes the cables hang a bit unceremoniously down the center of piano. I'm actually routing the cables through a small notch in the bend of one of the front leg supports to get them out to the side.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/08/18 11:19 AM
Can you please show us a picture with the cables connected. I’d like to see how well these can be concealed. Also, tell us how the VST’s sound through the on-board speakers compared to the native sound. Thank you.
Posted By: FrankieC Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/08/18 11:43 AM
Sorry if I missed the pricing in a previous post but does anyone know how much the Novus NV10 is retailing for in the USA? Also, does anyone have any comments on how it sounds through the speaker system? I currently own a Kawai RX-6 and love it but may need to sell it because I am moving in to a smaller home and am considering either the Novus NV10 or Yamaha’s N3X which I have not tested yet. The only Kawai hybrids I can find locally are the CA98 and 97 and to be honest, I don’t care for their “piano in a box” sound when listening through the speaker system. I also did not care for their action either. I thought they were close to a grand action but I felt they would not be the most ideal for me to practice on. I was able to test out Yamaha’s NU1X and liked it’s sound for an upright but unfortunately it does not have the grand action so that makes it a show stopper. If anyone has suggestions for another model I should look at please let me know.
Posted By: bSharp(C)yclist Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/08/18 12:06 PM
Originally Posted by FrankieC
Sorry if I missed the pricing in a previous post but does anyone know how much the Novus NV10 is retailing for in the USA? Also, does anyone have any comments on how it sounds through the speaker system? I currently own a Kawai RX-6 and love it but may need to sell it because I am moving in to a smaller home and am considering either the Novus NV10 or Yamaha’s N3X which I have not tested yet. The only Kawai hybrids I can find locally are the CA98 and 97 and to be honest, I don’t care for their “piano in a box” sound when listening through the speaker system. I also did not care for their action either. I thought they were close to a grand action but I felt they would not be the most ideal for me to practice on. I was able to test out Yamaha’s NU1X and liked it’s sound for an upright but unfortunately it does not have the grand action so that makes it a show stopper. If anyone has suggestions for another model I should look at please let me know.


I can't say what Gombessa (congrats!) paid for it, but it's looking like around 12.5K here in Orange County. I won't know until it's in the store (2nd/3rd week of February). I'd imagine there is some negotiation wiggle in there.
Posted By: PianoGuyStuart Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/08/18 12:36 PM
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by Loga
Wow. This Kawai NV10 just sounds very good IMHO! More mature and full bodied than the N1! The price is quite high, but I will definitely try one (if I find a dealer near to my home).


Please note that the NV10's 'Pianist' mode sound engine is also found on the CA98/CA78 digital pianos. These models all share essentially the same audio processing hardware and Onkyo technology, so will sound identical when played through headphones.

Kind regards,
James
x


All these posts are very inspiring.

It is good that the action on the NV10 seems to be what most people hoped it would be (which is why most were buying it in the first place over the CA98).

James - Quick question on the headphone front.

1/ So, the CA98 and NV10 sound identical over headphones?

2/ What is the amplification capacity on the two Kawais? I currently have a Yamaha YDP163 and while that powers Audio Technica MX50 headphones quite nicely, it does a poor job at driving Sennheiser HD650 headphones. With more power I am guessing that the HD650s might be a good alternative. The MX50s are 38ohms, and the HD650s are 300 ohms. Would the CA98 and the NV10 be able to drive them effectively? ie what is the capacity on both?
Posted By: FaceKicker Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/08/18 02:42 PM
Originally Posted by Francis Martin

3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rNHELnuNbI
"Kawai Novus NV10 vs Yamaha AvantGrand N1 | Hybrid Piano Test"

Thanks for posting -- it really does sound quite a bit better than the N1. But wouldn't the N2 be a fairer comparison in terms of the price point? Based on a quick search the NV10 is about twice the price of the N1, whereas the N2 is only a bit more than the NV10. (Not to say the comparison would turn out much different, but the speakers on the N2 are a bit better than the N1 as far as I can tell.)
Posted By: Cosi Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/08/18 02:56 PM
Originally Posted by FaceKicker
But wouldn't the N2 be a fairer comparison in terms of the price point? Based on a quick search the NV10 is about twice the price of the N1, whereas the N2 is only a bit more than the NV10.


In Europe -roughly :

N1 : 6500 €
N2 : 11500 €
Novus : 9000 €

The Novus is exactly between the two in terms of price. Whatever, the comparison would be not fair even with the N2 because it was launched in 2011 and it's outdated now. From my point of view the Novus sounds way better than the N1 in the video, however I'm not so impressed, the sound seems a bit bland for me. In my opinion the Dexibell H7 sounds better, more lively, and it's only 2800 € (but without quality grand action ofc).
Posted By: bSharp(C)yclist Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/08/18 03:10 PM
Crazy, the NV10 is almost 4K more than the N2 here in the US.
Posted By: FaceKicker Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/08/18 03:10 PM
I was looking at the best listed UK prices online from "PriceSpy", which are £4800 for the N1, £8200 for the Novus, and £9500 for the N2, which is a little closer to what I said. But you're right that in your case it's more or less halfway in between.

Originally Posted by Cosi
Whatever, the comparison would be not fair even with the N2 because it was launched in 2011 and it's outdated now.

That's true. What would really impress me is if the Novus compared favorably to the much more recent N3X. (Of course that would be unfair in the other direction price-wise, which is why it'd be very impressive if the NV10 still came out on top.)
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/08/18 03:49 PM
A few hopefully interesting notes from Day 2 with the NV-10.

I was trying to get Garritan CFX working, and wanted to see if it could function with the line-in on the NV-10. The problem is I was getting some horrible noise through both speakers and headphones with the MBP connected.

It would get a little better or worse as I moved around the audio-out cable from my MBP to the NV-10's line-in, but was still horribly noticeable. And the noise modulated whenever I adjusted volume on the laptop, so it was clear where it was coming from. After an hour or so, I decided to give up.

Just by pure chance, I pulled the USB-B cable (MIDI-over-USB) out first, and as soon as I did that, the noise completely disappeared! I still had the MBP connected to the NV-10 via line-in, and when I played sounds/music from the MBP, they came through crystal clear on the NV-10's speakers (and through the headphone jack).

Sounds like there's some kind of ground loop issue with the USB connection? I'm assuming it's not the NV-10's fault, but now I have to figure out how to connect the laptop without getting an incessant buzzing.

The silver lining is that I spent more time with the SK-EX rendering engine on pianist mode, and it's REALLY good. There's something more dynamic and responsive about it than Sound mode, but I can't really place my finger on it. Garritan CFX is still more full-bodied and natural, but the next few days and weeks will be just with the native sound engine.

The other takeaway is that it seems the NV-10 doesn't have any kind of noise gate. My MP11 had a noticeable one attached to the line-in. But on the Novus, I could adjust the line-in volume as much as I wanted (there are, surprisingly, three+ avenues to adjust this) and the sound never cut out.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/08/18 03:49 PM
Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
Crazy, the NV10 is almost 4K more than the N2 here in the US.


Talk to your dealer wink
Posted By: Osho Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/08/18 04:25 PM
Congratulations Gombessa !!!

Can you please elaborate further in the noise? It isn't clear to me. Are you saying that the noise occurs if you use USB for midi connection but not the regular MIDI cable?

Thanks
Osho
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/08/18 04:43 PM
Originally Posted by Osho
Congratulations Gombessa !!!

Can you please elaborate further in the noise? It isn't clear to me. Are you saying that the noise occurs if you use USB for midi connection but not the regular MIDI cable?

Thanks
Osho


I don't have any regular MIDI cables, so I can't test that configuration out..

Here's the setup I tried:

MBP USB-C -> USB-B -> NV-10 USB-to-host
MBP audio out -> 1/8" male to male -> NV-10 line-in
NV-10 headphone out -> headphones (or speakers)

With everything set up, I get low level digital/electronic noise coming out of the NV-10 speakers at nearly any reasonable volume.

However, if I remove the USB-B cable, the setup looks like this:

MBP audio-out -> 1/8" male to male -> NV-10 line -in
NV-10 headphone out -> headphones

And there's zero noise at all. But any audio coming out of the MBP plays crystal clear through the NV-10's line in.

There's also zero noise if my setup is:

MBP USB-C -> USB-B -> NV-10 USB-to-host
MBP audio out -> headphones

So plugging in USB-B for MIDI control (perhaps in connection with line-in) causes noise. But the noise is not coming from the audio cable, it's being caused by the USB connection, it seems.
Posted By: Francis Martin Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/08/18 04:46 PM
In addition to the four links to the new YouTube clips about the NOVUS NV10 above (or page before), here's another link to a Danish speaking dealer - obviously a store in Denmark named "digital PIANO.dk, Juhl Soerensen" - removing/lifting the grand piano fallboard during his presentation at 1:17.

5. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-HA9X8f5qQ
„Kawai Novus NV10 - Introduktion på Dansk“

As you can see, removing/lifting the fallboard happens in about 2 seconds and is basically very easy with this instrument. However, there are many grand piano manufacturers who are really tricky about this and where, in addition, it is necessary to remove some small screws beforehand, as Kawai James has implied before. But not so with the NV10. This work goes here really easy and fluid.
Then the presenter carefully reinserts the fallboard at 1:32, which takes about 10 seconds.

Nevertheless one can make mistakes out of carelessness. This happens even to experienced piano-technicians at the end of their often exhausting regulation work, which can take hours, and then it comes to damage because they have not focused enough for the final seconds of all the work done before for this simple and final action! A note that sounds banal, but it is not: Hold the fallboard when lifting and re-inserting really firm (!) in the hands, otherwise it can fall to the keyboard and do everything really slowly without any pressure to the material. When re-inserting, make sure that the fallboard on the right and left side really gets into the respective guides. That's it.

Why am I writing this at all? It happens again and again that pencils which are dropped on top of the grand piano before the music rest (!) roll down into the gap between the keyboard cover and housing. If you do not carefully and calmly remove the pen from its "dangerous" position, it rolls/falls behind the open keyboard lid down to the inside of the instrument on the keyboard. This happens especially when one now moves the fallboard, e.g. to close it. On the keyboard, the pen rattles while playing, which of course is incredibly annoying. The pen must be taken out again. There is no other way. Exactly for this, one should know, how to remove the fallboard itself (!) and put it back in, without having to let a technician come for it. After all, you only want to have your pen back and finish the rattling in the instrument and not tinker with the electronics.

In this respect, I can only recommend, in this regard, the "analog" and "acoustic" parts such as wood, felts and leather of his digital instrument (with all necessary caution) get to know. These things should not be a “black box”.

Hope, that this will help, if someone is in such a "big" trouble. So, don't worry and be happy, that you are able to open the NV10 so easily from frontside (!) and get your instrument "repaired".

Frank
Posted By: redfish1901 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/08/18 05:27 PM
Originally Posted by Gombessa


MBP USB-C -> USB-B -> NV-10 USB-to-host
MBP audio out -> 1/8" male to male -> NV-10 line-in
NV-10 headphone out -> headphones (or speakers)

MBP audio-out -> 1/8" male to male -> NV-10 line -in
NV-10 headphone out -> headphones

MBP USB-C -> USB-B -> NV-10 USB-to-host
MBP audio out -> headphones

So plugging in USB-B for MIDI control (perhaps in connection with line-in) causes noise. But the noise is not coming from the audio cable, it's being caused by the USB connection, it seems.


You have the dreaded ground loop. Your Mac's USB ground is not the same level as NV10's audio ground. When you tie them together like in your first setup, you hear her the 60hz hum.

I would suggest plugging both of them to the same outlet (have the laptop plugged in). Or some other combination to bring the USB and NV10's audio ground to the same ground. Googling for "usb ground loop" should also give you some other ideas.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/08/18 05:33 PM
Originally Posted by redfish1901


You have the dreaded ground loop. Your Mac's USB ground is not the same level as NV10's audio ground. When you tie them together like in your first setup, you hear her the 60hz hum.

I would suggest plugging both of them to the same outlet (have the laptop plugged in). Or some other combination to bring the USB and NV10's audio ground to the same ground. Googling for "usb ground loop" should also give you some other ideas.


Thanks redfish for the suggestions. I'll google around for more options.

Both laptop and NV-10 were plugged into the same surge protector on the same outlet. I also unplugged the MBP from USB-C power at one point (so it was on battery) and the hum persisted.
Posted By: JoeT Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/08/18 05:37 PM
Originally Posted by Kawai James
It's perhaps worth noting that the NV10's fallboard can be lifted out, just like an acoustic piano (i.e. there are no screws holding it in place). I'm not recommending than all NV10 owners suddenly start lifting-out the fallboard in order to see the action

Why not enjoy the sights? wink
Posted By: Frédéric L Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/08/18 05:41 PM
My Yamaha makes ground loop noises when used with USB and line in. My solution is to use a plain MIDI link.
Posted By: Cosi Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/08/18 06:09 PM
Originally Posted by Gombessa

The silver lining is that I spent more time with the SK-EX rendering engine on pianist mode, and it's REALLY good. There's something more dynamic and responsive about it than Sound mode, but I can't really place my finger on it


Glad to hear that smile
Posted By: Galuwen Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/08/18 06:44 PM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
I'm glad you did it, so that I don't have to smile

A couple of interesting notes from further play:

1. I can't really trigger a note if I strike a key exactly from the letoff; it maybe works for 1 in 10 keys? Is this normal for Kawai grands? It doesn't bother me, though I do note this behavior is almost *precisely* how my GF 1 action works and I always assumed it was some kind of oversight (because last I tried I could trigger notes on other acoustic grands, and Kawai changed this behavior for GF2).

2. There's a case for some cable management features under the chassis. I'm experimenting with running a VST through the audio in (hurray for having a separate volumes knob for this!) and the placement of the extra ports makes the cables hang a bit unceremoniously down the center of piano. I'm actually routing the cables through a small notch in the bend of one of the front leg supports to get them out to the side.


Hello Gomessa,

congratulations on the NV10!! Maybe I can enlighten you on THAT one, because today a had (finally) the time for a longer "side by side" comparison of teh NV10 and the CA98. Yes it arrived finally at my dealer in Germany:

Playing the NV10 was really a joy but soon I found out the KAWAI seems to suffer the same systematic Problem with their Action on the NOVUS as they had with the first CA97 and the GF2 Actions: The Millenium Action (when you take out the front board) is perfectly "assembled" but not "regulated". So the individual keys are slightly different in their "response". Noticeable but not really a big Problem.

Seems to me that they assamble the NV10 maybe on their digital piano line. I asked my dealer, how to service the Novus. He told me that this will be done with their Service technicians for the digital line (I know Markus from the adjustment of my older CA97). Brilliant guy. Don't know how he would do on the NOVUS Action. On the other hand a piano craftsman on the light sensors of the NOVUS NV10? Hmmm. But that is already a bit the Problem with the GF2 too.

Second I really can confirm your first impressions: The tone of the NOVUS is "round" and clear a real joy to play. Compared with the CA98 is sounds lighter. Details are missing on the top and in the bass. Here the CA98 is a bit too "bombastic" in the bass sometimes :-). The NOVUS sounds somewhat in between the CA97 and the CA98 to me.

I couldn't find tweeters on the NOVUS (like on the CA98 behind the "Sound gap" over the CA98 letters. Only 4 midrange Speakers (the are bigger than on the CA98 - maybe they are dual cone). Maybe that's a possible reason for the diferent sounds. And of course there is a SUB woofer on the NOVUS.

The "vibrations" and tactile Feeling in the keys and the pedals is a huge difference between the CA98 and the NOVUS. It is closer to the CA97 but not in a bad way. Still it's a great and realistic Feeling.

At the end of the day two really outstanding digital pianos.

Can only bow my head KAWAI - you folks did it !!!

Alexander
Posted By: JFP Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/08/18 07:01 PM
Use a groundloop isolator in your audio signal path ; job done...
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/08/18 07:29 PM
Originally Posted by Galuwen
I couldn't find tweeters on the NOVUS.

The NV10 has two tweeters, just like the CA98 and its siblings. They are quite cleverly hidden. If you look closely, there's a small gap just below the upper front edge and just above the upper edge of the open fallboard. This gap is covered with fabric (recessed by the thickness of the board, you have to shine in a flashlight to see the fabric) and the tweeters are behind that fabric, right in front of the leftmost and rightmost top speakers.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/08/18 07:37 PM
Originally Posted by Pete14
Can you please show us a picture with the cables connected. I’d like to see how well these can be concealed. Also, tell us how the VST’s sound through the on-board speakers compared to the native sound. Thank you.


Here you go!

[Linked Image]

This is far from ideal, but there's plenty of space underneath for command strips or other cable management. The good news is it is fairly easy to keep things hidden because the connection jacks on the NV-10 are hidden far back on the pedal leg. The one thing I would like is a pass-through slot to the back of the NV-10, in case you'd like to route cable to something behind or on top of the piano without having to wrap the cable around the side.

Originally Posted by JFP
Use a groundloop isolator in your audio signal path ; job done...


Just ordered an iDefender 3.0, will see if that's "job done' indeed smile

Originally Posted by Galuwen
The Millenium Action (when you take out the front board) is perfectly "assembled" but not "regulated". So the individual keys are slightly different in their "response". Noticeable but not really a big Problem.


I have no idea if that's true, but it wouldn't surprise me (and that's not a knock against Kawai). I wouldn't expect the action in the Novus to be hand-regulated to the degree of a GX or SK, and maybe sometime in the future I might have a tech come out and see if he can make some changes. But none of this affects my playing right now, so like you I agree it's not a big problem at all.
Posted By: Galuwen Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/08/18 08:16 PM
Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by Galuwen
I couldn't find tweeters on the NOVUS.

The NV10 has two tweeters, just like the CA98 and its siblings. They are quite cleverly hidden. If you look closely, there's a small gap just below the upper front edge and just above the upper edge of the open fallboard. This gap is covered with fabric (recessed by the thickness of the board, you have to shine in a flashlight to see the fabric) and the tweeters are behind that fabric, right in front of the leftmost and rightmost top speakers.



Ah....clever !! I thought so ... they must be some where...thx for the hint..
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/08/18 08:36 PM
Thank you, Gombessa. The cables seem fairly hidden, and if one tapes them right behind (by the opening) it would be even less noticeable. A pass-through slot would indeed be optimal, but I sometimes wonder why manufacturers aren’t very fond of making things “convenient” when it comes to providing optimal accessibility/connectivity for VSTs. I mean, they know everybody’s using VSTs and still the sound systems are only optimized for the on-board sounds, and connecting cables is always a trade off: to dangle or not to dangle. smile
With the LX-17, for example, there’s no way of concealing the dangling cables because the connections are right at the front.
Posted By: bSharp(C)yclist Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/08/18 09:04 PM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
Crazy, the NV10 is almost 4K more than the N2 here in the US.


Talk to your dealer wink


Yes - please ignore my comment laugh
Posted By: Grandman Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/08/18 11:51 PM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
I
1. I can't really trigger a note if I strike a key exactly from the letoff; it maybe works for 1 in 10 keys? Is this normal for Kawai grands? It doesn't bother me, though I do note this behavior is almost *precisely* how my GF 1 action works and I always assumed it was some kind of oversight (because last I tried I could trigger notes on other acoustic grands, and Kawai changed this behavior for GF2).


This is similar to the AG. I was unable to play a note from the point of escapement. It would not sound. Its possible that the optical sensors are set at a level where a trigger at the point of escapement does not create any tone. On the Kawai grand pianos, it is easy to trigger a tone from the point of escapement.

One question I have is if you know if the length of the pivot point is the same as that on the SK-EX concert grand? On the AG, I believe reading somewhere the key length is equal to their 5 ft 3 grand piano.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/08/18 11:53 PM
Last night I thought it would be a good idea to show my 4yo a nifty little feature of the NV-10: Bluetooth audio playback. I'm sure Kawai intended it so you could playback full orchestral concertos while blissfully playing along on the piano section. But now, my instrument is pretty much the world's most overqualified bluetooth speaker. It's spent most of the day blaring out My Little Pony and Frozen, at quite high volumes. There's also singing along involved smile

I'm pretty sure the wife isn't super enthused about this development, but I've decided not to bring it up...
Posted By: JoeT Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/09/18 01:00 AM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Last night I thought it would be a good idea to show my 4yo a nifty little feature of the NV-10: Bluetooth audio playback. I'm sure Kawai intended it so you could playback full orchestral concertos while blissfully playing along on the piano section. But now, my instrument is pretty much the world's most overqualified bluetooth speaker. It's spent most of the day blaring out My Little Pony and Frozen, at quite high volumes. There's also singing along involved smile

The bumper issue of Pianist Magazine (click the ad on the right side of this forum) contains an intermediate-level arrangement-of "Let It Go" for piano, so you still have the option to play along. laugh
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/09/18 01:39 AM
Haha, you seem to know my kid well! Let It Go was the first piece I learned after coming back to piano, but I jumped straight into a fairly advanced arrangement that made my return....not efficient! I've since learned my limitations (a bit) smile
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/09/18 01:56 AM
Regarding the USB ground loop, I seem to recall reading a post from PianoWorld VIP voxpops a few years ago, in which he used a transparent cable, located the ground wire, and successfully severed the connection using a craft knife.

This is not something that I would recommend as a Kawai employee, but voxpops claimed it did the trick, and stopped the hum.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/09/18 02:38 AM
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Regarding the USB ground loop, I seem to recall reading a post from PianoWorld VIP voxpops a few years ago, in which he used a transparent cable, located the ground wire, and successfully severed the connection using a craft knife.

This is not something that I would recommend as a Kawai employee, but voxpops claimed it did the trick, and stopped the hum.

Kind regards,
James
x


Ah, thanks for the tip James! I used to be quite into DIY drones, and I've spent a lot of time slicing up USB cable housings and strain reliefs in order to save a few grams and gain a few seconds flight time. So I should be able to do this mod (though I've just paid $45 for a dongle that, from what I've read, does exactly what you just described).

Also, I've followed JoBert's lead and disregarded James' prudent warning to take off the fallboard (of course) laugh

Just confirming that it seems the pivot length on the NV-10 is pretty much 10 1/4" (26.0cm) on the nose (as measured from C4).

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/09/18 03:04 AM
I believe this is a first for a digital piano: easy access to the action. This approach could prove beneficial for both Kawai and the end user because it seems that many issues with Kawai wooden actions are usually easily corrected by making minute adjustments to specific keys. Anything from clacking noises to stuck keys can potentially be solved by the user with some guidance from Kawai; therefore, avoiding a visit from a technician who would usually end up spending half an hour removing screws (and all sorts of other things), and two seconds adjusting the offending pin or misbehaving felt.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/09/18 03:05 AM
Question (probably for Kawai James):

My NV-10 came with a Kawai USB stick, with a single file on it - CAx8Lapp.SYS. From the CA78/98 update posted (PDF), this matches one of the three update files for those DPs. But I didn't get any instructions on whether I should attempt an update with this single file? The NV-10 looks like it already has software version 1.0.2 installed.
Posted By: bSharp(C)yclist Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/09/18 04:11 AM
Originally Posted by Pete14
I believe this is a first for a digital piano: easy access to the action. This approach could prove beneficial for both Kawai and the end user because it seems that many issues with Kawai wooden actions are usually easily corrected by making minute adjustments to specific keys. Anything from clacking noises to stuck keys can potentially be solved by the user with some guidance from Kawai; therefore, avoiding a visit from a technician who would usually end up spending half an hour removing screws (and all sorts of other things), and two seconds adjusting the offending pin or misbehaving felt.


You can get to the action just as easy with the Avant Grand N2 - the fallboard easily comes off. Since we are measuring "sticks", it's 9 1/4 inches for the N2 laugh
Posted By: Osho Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/09/18 04:13 AM
Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
Originally Posted by Pete14
I believe this is a first for a digital piano: easy access to the action. This approach could prove beneficial for both Kawai and the end user because it seems that many issues with Kawai wooden actions are usually easily corrected by making minute adjustments to specific keys. Anything from clacking noises to stuck keys can potentially be solved by the user with some guidance from Kawai; therefore, avoiding a visit from a technician who would usually end up spending half an hour removing screws (and all sorts of other things), and two seconds adjusting the offending pin or misbehaving felt.


You can get to the action just as easy with the Avant Grand N2 - the fallboard easily comes off. Since we are measuring "sticks", it's 9 1/4 inches for the N2 laugh

Interesting! Is that for end of white key to pivot measurement?

Thanks
Osho
Posted By: bSharp(C)yclist Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/09/18 04:21 AM
Originally Posted by Osho
Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist


You can get to the action just as easy with the Avant Grand N2 - the fallboard easily comes off. Since we are measuring "sticks", it's 9 1/4 inches for the N2 laugh

Interesting! Is that for end of white key to pivot measurement?

Thanks
Osho


Yes, same way as Gombessa measured it.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/09/18 05:23 AM
Interesting! Thanks for the info bSharp!

1) 9.25" is just shy of Grand Feel/Grand Feel 2's 9.5" pivot. Essentially identical.

2) When I tried the AvantGrands I really felt that the pivots seemed short. But the pivot is nearly identical to the DP I normally play, so clearly I was wrong on that point. It could just be because the action was stiffer than I was expecting.

I feel I should give the AG series another shake just to be fair. It's just too bad that hybrids are such rare creatures.
Posted By: Galuwen Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/09/18 05:38 AM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Question (probably for Kawai James):

My NV-10 came with a Kawai USB stick, with a single file on it - CAx8Lapp.SYS. From the CA78/98 update posted (PDF), this matches one of the three update files for those DPs. But I didn't get any instructions on whether I should attempt an update with this single file? The NV-10 looks like it already has software version 1.0.2 installed.


Even if it would match the NV10 I can not recommend this update. To many critical bugs in that software version: invisible volume button whilst playback ok f USB files. Loud hissing noise whilst playback of Bloothaudio, system crashes specially when plugging I n headphones or audio playback...

Alex
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/09/18 07:22 AM
Hello Gombessa,

Originally Posted by Gombessa
My NV-10 came with a Kawai USB stick, with a single file on it - CAx8Lapp.SYS. From the CA78/98 update posted (PDF), this matches one of the three update files for those DPs. But I didn't get any instructions on whether I should attempt an update with this single file? The NV-10 looks like it already has software version 1.0.2 installed.


Software updates for the NV10 will be handled a little differently to the CA98/CA78. I'm afraid I don't know anything about the USB stick (although it does contain one of the LCD update files, as you note - perhaps your dealer updated the instrument before delivering it to you, and accidentally included the USB stick?), however I recommend that you contact Kawai America for assistance regarding software updates.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: Osho Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/09/18 09:01 AM
Thanks for the explanation of the noise Gombessa. I will be interested in hearing if the noise goes away after you get the device for it.

Thanks,
Osho
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/09/18 11:24 AM
Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
Originally Posted by Pete14
I believe this is a first for a digital piano: easy access to the action. This approach could prove beneficial for both Kawai and the end user because it seems that many issues with Kawai wooden actions are usually easily corrected by making minute adjustments to specific keys. Anything from clacking noises to stuck keys can potentially be solved by the user with some guidance from Kawai; therefore, avoiding a visit from a technician who would usually end up spending half an hour removing screws (and all sorts of other things), and two seconds adjusting the offending pin or misbehaving felt.


You can get to the action just as easy with the Avant Grand N2 - the fallboard easily comes off. Since we are measuring "sticks", it's 9 1/4 inches for the N2 laugh

Given how “easily” the fallboard on the AvantGrand come off, why hadn’t it occurred thus far to anyone to have a go at it and measure the “sticks” (I know you’ve done it now). People around here have been going nuts as to whether the length is at baby grand level or else. All things considered, the Novus beats it in that department too.
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/09/18 12:17 PM
Just a short update:

I spent a very satisfying evening with my NV10 yesterday. I'm slowly getting used to the two physically awkward changes - the pedal being farther away and the music rest being higher up and also farther way - so those are getting less and less awkward (not fully "there" yet, though).

The action I've already gotten used to, and enjoy it very much.

And I'm also getting used to the different speaker sound character (compared to the CA97), but most of the evening I spent with headphones anyway, and there I really, really enjoyed the new sound engine very much. I wrote in my opening post that the new sound engine alone would not be a reason for me to pay the premium to upgrade from the CA97 to the CA98. But having it in addition to the other "upgrades" that the NV10 has over the CA97, makes me very happy. The pianist mode SK-EX is really another step above the SK-EX from the sound mode - and I already liked the latter very much. Especially regarding resonances, but also regarding clarity of the tone (these acoustic details are always difficult to describe - I may yet record a little comparison as an illustration).
Posted By: bSharp(C)yclist Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/09/18 12:17 PM
Originally Posted by Pete14

Given how “easily” the fallboard on the AvantGrand come off, why hadn’t it occurred thus far to anyone to have a go at it and measure the “sticks” (I know you’ve done it now). People around here have been going nuts as to whether the length is at baby grand level or else. All things considered, the Novus beats it in that department too.


I don't know frown I didn't think to measure it until I saw your and Gombessa's post. I wish I could keep up and read everything that is posted on the forums here. I'd be more educated smile
Posted By: FrankieC Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/09/18 12:26 PM
Hi Gombessa,

Congrats on your NV10 and thanks to everyone for these posts. They are very helpful. I can’t wait until I have a chance to test out one of these locally.

Regarding the noise you are experiencing, I have been full circle with this issue more than a few times in my studio. I know for certain I have no ground loops in my studio. The only thing that worked for me in my studio is connecting my computers to external, high quality audio interfaces via usb cables that have ferrites on them (https://linustechtips.com/main/topi...ays-to-remove-noise-from-usb-audio-cable). And then connecting the audio out of the audio interface into my main mixer.

I can’t tell you how many hours I have spent with this issue and the setup I describe above is the only thing that has worked for me. I believe the issue is with cross-talk between all of the components in the computer. I have four tower systems in my studio each connected to two usb keyboard controllers and each have their own audio interface that connect two stereo audio outputs to my main mixer. I have one additional workstation where I can’t use usb for the controllers at all. On that one I connect via standard midi that is available on the audio interface.

Finally, the only thing I really don’t care for with the VSTs (and I have pretty much all of them) is that the logic for the pedals is not that great which makes them a show stopper for me when it comes to a practice instrument. The Kawai, Yamaha and even the Casio GP-500/400 have better logic for the pedals IMHO.

I hope this helps a little bit. Good luck and thanks again to everyone for all this terrific info.
Posted By: danielp11 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/09/18 01:21 PM
Hi JoBert, Hi Gombessa,

first let me thank you both very very much for your wonderful insights.

I own a Kawai CS 11 digital sitting in my apartment and a Kawai GX2 acoustic grand sitting in my house.

I am thinking about "upgrading" my CS11 to a Novus NV10.

I tried a CA98 in a shop (Novus not arrived yet) and compared sounds. Especially I was interested in the new pianist mode.

While there is a big difference between pianist mode and sound mode for the SK-EX with the standard settings, the difference nearly dissapeared for me when I set all the resonance settings in the virtual technician to about 8 in sound mode (like the Smart mode for the Virtual Technicion also does when you put it to high resonance). But in the store with all the noises it´s difficult to tell.

So my question is: Is there still a big difference for you between pianist mode (standard) and sound mode with higher resonance settings in the virtual technician (which is also available on the CS11)?

The real Millenium III action in the NV10 alone probably would not do it for me. I play the GF 2 action weekdays on the CS11 and the Millenium III action during weekends, so I know them both very well, and for me the GF 2 is so good (pretty similar in feel, but not exactly the same) that I have no difficulty switching.

Any answer would be very much appreciated.

Thanks in advance
Daniel





Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/09/18 02:06 PM
Originally Posted by danielp11
Especially I was interested in the new pianist mode.

While there is a big difference between pianist mode and sound mode for the SK-EX with the standard settings, the difference nearly dissapeared for me when I set all the resonance settings in the virtual technician to about 8 in sound mode (like the Smart mode for the Virtual Technicion also does when you put it to high resonance). But in the store with all the noises it´s difficult to tell.

So my question is: Is there still a big difference for you between pianist mode (standard) and sound mode with higher resonance settings in the virtual technician (which is also available on the CS11)?

As I wrote above, I really started to appreciate the pianist mode while playing with headphones yesterday and after a few minutes of comparing, I remembered that on my CA97, I did have the resonances and decay cranked up quite a bit (actually to 8, just like you wrote). So I did the same on my NV10. With that setting, the difference is not as striking anymore than it was before, but there was still a noticeable difference in favor of pianist mode. But, as said before, I would not have upgraded the CA97 to a CA98 only for the pianist mode. Getting the new action and the much nicer looking cabinet were the main points for me, the pianist mode is a really nice bonus. Since you already have the action in your acoustic on weekends, and the CS11 already has a very nice cabinet, personally I don't think I would upgrade the CS11 at this time. Maybe I would cave once the NV20 or NV30 or whatever other successor (or one after that) comes out. wink
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/09/18 02:28 PM
Pianist mode's resonance are far more advanced (calculated for all 88-keys, and progressively) than any previous generation Kawai DP.

However, it's not just the resonances that are improved, I find the multi-channel sampling has a clearer tone, a smoother dynamic response. I cannot quite put my finger on exactly why Pianist mode sounds (and plays!) better...it just does. It's one thing to listen to the new sound engine, but I believe you really have to play it to fully appreciate the improvements.

I expect MacMacMac will dismiss my comments as marketing spiel, but that's honestly how I feel.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/09/18 03:43 PM
Originally Posted by danielp11

So my question is: Is there still a big difference for you between pianist mode (standard) and sound mode with higher resonance settings in the virtual technician (which is also available on the CS11)?

The real Millenium III action in the NV10 alone probably would not do it for me. I play the GF 2 action weekdays on the CS11 and the Millenium III action during weekends, so I know them both very well, and for me the GF 2 is so good (pretty similar in feel, but not exactly the same) that I have no difficulty switching.


I cranked up all the resonances on Sound mode in SK-EX to 8, and you're right, the differences are diminished at that point. However, there is still (imho) a significant improvement in the fidelity of Pianist mode. Kawai James describes it best, it is still more resonant, it's more clear, and more airy in both bass and treble than sound mode (and the touchscreen UI makes it SO easy A/B test this)! Compared to Pianist mode, Sound mode is a bit more muddy and "hollow" with the resonances turned up high. I honestly can't say that I would be able to tell the difference without a side-by-side comparison, but when compared against each other, it is quite evident to my ears!

Originally Posted by FrankieC
Hi Gombessa,

Congrats on your NV10 and thanks to everyone for these posts. They are very helpful. I can’t wait until I have a chance to test out one of these locally.

Regarding the noise you are experiencing, I have been full circle with this issue more than a few times in my studio.


Thank you Frankie! I'm not an EE and I have to admit being baffled as to how an electrical issue can so impact a clear digital signal, but it gives me a great sense of adventure to see continuing evidence that the world is not as simple as we would like to intuit smile Perhaps it's a matter of failing to isolate the electrical signal from one source to another. But since the buzzing modulates as I do things on the laptop (like change volume or scroll the screen), it would seem the USB connection is causing a change to manifest in the analog audio out to the piano. Hopefully the iDefender will do the trick, but I may hit you up for tips on ferrites and other USB isolation tricks if it doesn't!

Originally Posted by Kawai James

However, it's not just the resonances that are improved, I find the multi-channel sampling has a clearer tone, a smoother dynamic response. I cannot quite put my finger on exactly why Pianist mode sounds (and plays!) better...it just does. It's one thing to listen to the new sound engine, but I believe you really have to play it to fully appreciate the improvements.


I expect anyone with a CA-78/98 to be able to test this, but I definitely find this to be true. Pianist mode is fuller, MUCH more clear, and with more pleasant, ringing resonance than the Concert EX on the MP11, and also compared to the SK-EX Sound Mode. I'm still going to try to get Garritan CFX to work without ground loop buzzing, but the more I play Pianist mode, the more I get lost in the beautiful tone, and that matters a lot!

Originally Posted by Kawai James

I expect MacMacMac will dismiss my comments as marketing spiel, but that's honestly how I feel.


*Heavy sigh* I ain't saying anything here. To each their own. But I hope people try Pianist mode SK-EX Rendering before casting aspersions.


Posted By: CyberGene Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/09/18 03:55 PM
Originally Posted by Gombessa

Originally Posted by Kawai James

However, it's not just the resonances that are improved, I find the multi-channel sampling has a clearer tone, a smoother dynamic response. I cannot quite put my finger on exactly why Pianist mode sounds (and plays!) better...it just does. It's one thing to listen to the new sound engine, but I believe you really have to play it to fully appreciate the improvements.


I expect anyone with a CA-78/98 to be able to test this, but I definitely find this to be true. Pianist mode is fuller, MUCH more clear, and with more pleasant, ringing resonance than the Concert EX on the MP11, and also compared to the SK-EX Sound Mode. I'm still going to try to get Garritan CFX to work without ground loop buzzing, but the more I play Pianist mode, the more I get lost in the beautiful tone, and that matters a lot!


Gombessa, I forgot to congratulate too, thought it was only JoBert with a NV10, but apparently there are more people to envy now laugh Congrats on your new shiny NV10! smile Please, let me know how you find the difference between CFX and Pianist mode. I'm genuinely intrigued by that comparison because I am myself on a crossroad currently deciding between a CA78 to utilize the Pianist Mode, or upgrading to (an eventual) VPC2 or CA48 with GFC to use as a controller to CFX. I am a well known supporter of CFX so this will be a tough choice and I haven't yet tested pianist mode which I will certainly do when I have chance to do so, but it would be very interesting to hear the opinion of one who's able to compare them both side by side as owner of both. Looking forward to this!
Posted By: jfl Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/09/18 04:21 PM
Gombessa- Envy on the NV10. Still none to try in my locale. The action is obviously superb. Now that you've been playing it a few days, can you comment further on the speakers and sound quality. You mentioned the lack of 'wall of sound' vs the CA-98. As all have noted, the NV10 vs N2 speaker and amp specs are quite different. Are you completely satisfied with the fullness and range of sound you're hearing on the NV10? Can you crank it up to the point where it has the powerful sound of a mid-sized grand? (Obviously very subjective but helpful.)

(I'm hoping to hear a classical recording on YouTube in the near future, though it will likely not be recorded from the internal speaker system.)
Posted By: JoeT Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/09/18 04:23 PM
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Pianist mode's resonance are far more advanced (calculated for all 88-keys, and progressively) than any previous generation Kawai DP.

However, it's not just the resonances that are improved, I find the multi-channel sampling has a clearer tone, a smoother dynamic response. I cannot quite put my finger on exactly why Pianist mode sounds (and plays!) better...it just does. It's one thing to listen to the new sound engine, but I believe you really have to play it to fully appreciate the improvements.

I expect MacMacMac will dismiss my comments as marketing spiel, but that's honestly how I feel.

That's nice to hear. Do you know any time when this pianist mode is going to enter the AnyTimeX silent pianos?
Posted By: Francis Martin Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/09/18 04:34 PM
On e-onkyo music on 2017/10/04 (news 779) there was a long report and interview about the recording and sampling process of the special selected SHIGERU KAWAI EX grand piano, which now trades under "PIANIST mode: SK-EX Multi Channel 88 Key Rendering", which is first used in CA78/98 and of course the NOVUS NV10 (but you all know that).

To my knowledge, this very same piano was also used at the International Chopin Piano Competition 2015 in Warsaw (next to and in competition to STEINWAY & SONS D, YAMAHA CFX and FAZIOLI F278).

Here is the link:
http://www.e-onkyo.com/news/779/

I use the following translation tool:
http://free-website-translation.com/

One could translate this wonderful extensive article, in which pianist A. Entani-shi ("Kawai-Onkyo CS-X1 Collaboration Prototype @ Musikmesse Frankfurt 2016" and "Kawai-Onkyo NOVUS NV10 Collaboration @ Musikmesse Frankfurt 2017") and KAWAI MPA (Master Piano Artisan) T. Murakami-shi be interviewed in detail, into clean English, so that it can be perceived by a much larger readership than "only" the Japanese, since the article delivers very interesting insights into the creation process of the “SK-EX Multi Channel Rendering”.

In any case, I'm not sure which grand piano exactly was used by YAMAHA for their CFX-sampling, what past and history that grand piano was, and how the sampling was done.
For me, the CFX used in the N3X or NU1X is a "no name" YAMAHA grand piano. Business as usual.

After all, the SK-EX grand piano chosen for the 2015 Chopin Competition is a very special selected one, as it met its competitors, see above, in the competition.
To my knowledge, MPA T. Murakami-shi was also the "piano technician" who supervised this exceptional SK-EX during the competition.
Posted By: Bambers Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/09/18 04:59 PM
Originally Posted by Gombessa

I cranked up all the resonances on Sound mode in SK-EX to 8, and you're right, the differences are diminished at that point. However, there is still (imho) a significant improvement in the fidelity of Pianist mode. Kawai James describes it best, it is still more resonant, it's more clear, and more airy in both bass and treble than sound mode (and the touchscreen UI makes it SO easy A/B test this)! Compared to Pianist mode, Sound mode is a bit more muddy and "hollow" with the resonances turned up high. I honestly can't say that I would be able to tell the difference without a side-by-side comparison, but when compared against each other, it is quite evident to my ears!


Would be interesting to hear the recording of something in sk-ex pianist mode vs the same thing in the sk-ex sound mode but fed by the midi output that was produced from the painist mode (would have to be done this way around since pianist mode does not accept such inputs). Preferably something a little more wide ranging than the typical demo style fast notes mf-f only which don't really expose the limitations of digital pianos very well.
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/09/18 05:24 PM
Originally Posted by Francis Martin

To my knowledge, this very same piano was also used at the International Chopin Piano Competition 2015 in Warsaw (next to and in competition to STEINWAY & SONS D, YAMAHA CFX and FAZIOLI F278).


I watched the entire competition start to end and I believe you are wrong since there was no participant playing a Kawai. As a matter of fact, there was only one participant playing the Fazioli, while the rest chose either Yamaha or Steinway, with the Yamaha beating the Steinway. Whether Kawai presented their SK-EX but nobody chose it as their instrument or Kawai didn't participate in that competition at all, I don't know.

P.S. I feel dumb and old... Actually there was a Kawai and 11 pianists played it. I need to check my memory since it was me who created a thread in the piano forum about this numbers:
Yamaha > Steinway > Kawai > Fazioli
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/09/18 06:01 PM
Originally Posted by CyberGene

Gombessa, I forgot to congratulate too, thought it was only JoBert with a NV10, but apparently there are more people to envy now laugh Congrats on your new shiny NV10! smile Please, let me know how you find the difference between CFX and Pianist mode.


Thanks Evgeny! I think a lot of these tests will take some time. It's really easy to get swamped with new changes, settings, etc. and get "lost in the forest." My very preliminary take is that CFX Full is more "full-bodied" and rich and with more natural reverb that the built-in sounds, and Pianist mode is more "clean," When I started CFX, everything sounded immediately familiar and comfortable (as it's been my go-to tone on the MP11 for 6+ months). When I switch to Pianist mode, it's different but I never get the sense that I'm moving to an inferior sound engine.

I'll probably move back and forth between Pianist mode and CFX over the next few weeks to decide which I want to stick with. And to be honest, the decision may fall to convenience--how easily can I make it so that my family can get the piano turned on with speakers activated, without digging through too many settings or pulling plugs? I'm already looking for options that will allow the speakers to play even with headphones plugged in to the NV-10.


Originally Posted by jfl
Now that you've been playing it a few days, can you comment further on the speakers and sound quality. You mentioned the lack of 'wall of sound' vs the CA-98. As all have noted, the NV10 vs N2 speaker and amp specs are quite different. Are you completely satisfied with the fullness and range of sound you're hearing on the NV10? Can you crank it up to the point where it has the powerful sound of a mid-sized grand? (Obviously very subjective but helpful.)


I'm probably not the best one to comment on the speakers, as for me, this will be a 95% headphone piano (else I would probably have looked to get an acoustic!). I don't think I was the one who made the comment about the CA-98, as I've only played a couple of minutes on one. And on the NV-10, most of the speaker time thus far has been playing kids tunes streamed to bluetooth from the phone smile

From the few hours I've tried, I'd say that the sound from the NV-10 speakers is clean and "as expected." I've always felt that grands were quieter for the pianist than uprights assuming the room is large enough, and the NV-10 is the same. It gets loud enough, but never crazy overpowering (e.g. if you open the top lid and remove the front cover from an upright).

I think it's SO hard to compare speakers between models unless they're side by side, so I just can't reasonably make a call against the N2/N3X on this point, sorry! frown
Posted By: jfl Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/09/18 07:19 PM
My bad. It was JoBert who made the comparisons to the CA-97/98.
Posted By: danielp11 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/09/18 08:32 PM
Thank you JoBert and Gombessa for your thoughts and test about pianist mode vs. sound mode with additional resonance and congrats to your new Novus NV10.

I will try the NV10 when its available for testing in cologne.

And I couldn’t resist either blush . Here is the pivot length of my acoustic Kawai GX2 Millenium III action: 26.2 cm which is about 10 1/3 inches.

[Linked Image]

Daniel
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/09/18 08:40 PM
BTW Americans don’t break inches into thirds smile It should be 1/2, 1/4, 1/8 or 1/16-s smile Don’t ask me why, I am a metric European laugh
Posted By: JoeT Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/09/18 09:08 PM
Originally Posted by CyberGene
BTW Americans don’t break inches into thirds smile It should be 1/2, 1/4, 1/8 or 1/16-s smile Don’t ask me why, I am a metric European laugh

Think of triadic inches. wink
Posted By: Bambers Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/09/18 09:09 PM
You do get thousandths (thou) though, and occasionally tenths...
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/09/18 09:38 PM
I made a quick and dirty recording for comparing pianist mode with sound mode:



Of course this also applies to the CA98 and CA78, not only the NV10.

As you can hear, there's definitely a difference, but the SK-EX in sound mode definitely doesn't have to hide in shame. Although be aware that many of the nuances have been lost with the various compressions/decompressions on the way from my piano to your speakers/headphones, via YouTube. If listened to directly from the piano, the difference is actually more pronounced, in favor of the pianist mode.

Settings for Pianist Mode: Rendering Style "Classic" with default settings, except Resonances=7 and Damper Noise=3

Settings for Sound Mode: "SK-EX Concert Grand" sound with default settings, except Damper Resonances=8, String Resonances=8, Undamped String Resonances=8, Cabinet Resonances=4, Damper Noise=3
Posted By: danielp11 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/09/18 09:57 PM
Hi JoBert,

thank you so much for the recordings. VERY helpful and some nice Schumann pieces from „Kinderszenen“ and „Album für die Jugend“ which I played also.

The sound mode seems a little moore „boomy“ to me, but this maybe could be adjusted with the internal equalizer. The last piece „Erster Verlust“ sound VERY nice also in sound mode.

Thanks again
Daniel
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/09/18 10:01 PM
I agree (also from my own experiments). Sound mode with all the resonance settings turned up is a tad "boomier"than Pianist mode.
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/09/18 10:18 PM
Very nice comparison JoBert, thank you! Good choice of music too smile And if you allow, a slight correction to the Pathetique Sonata: at the end of the first phrase you should play pure B and not Bb (for a G major chord).
Posted By: danielp11 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/09/18 10:23 PM
Hi JoBert,

after listening to your video again a few times I think the pianist mode sounds a little bit more „refined“.

What are the thoughts of the other fellow forum members, concerning this very goog comparison video by JoBert? (thanks again!)

Daniel
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/09/18 11:02 PM
I found a really easy way to tell Pianist mode apart from Sound mode:

If you strike a key or chord (easiest if around c4, no damper, f or ff, staccato), in Pianist mode you will hear a high pitched residual "ringing" resonance around c7 that persists for a few seconds. It sounds almost like running a wet finger over the rim of a wine glass. I think that's the Pianist mode resonance modeling chiming the undamped strings in the top octave.

If you do the same on Sound mode, even with resonances turned up, there's nothing like that which sounds out. My initial thought is that the relative "boominess" of Sound mode comes from the lack of these upper harmonics, which work to make Pianist mode sound more clear/bell-like?
Posted By: danielp11 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/09/18 11:06 PM
Hi JoBert,

I just found a WAV test-recording of your last piece in the video („erster Verlust“ by Schumann) which I did about 4 years ago on my CA97, which I owned, with resonance settings of about 9. Four years ago I just started piano lessons again (after having played as a child a little bit). This is just for additional comparison to pianist mode, so please forgive me my bad playing.

Here is the link Erster Verlust

Daniel
Posted By: FaceKicker Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/10/18 12:30 AM
Originally Posted by newer player
Good strategy JoBert. Supplies look limited for a while so just getting a NV10 is not possible for most; negotiating price is tough when there is virtually no supply but some strong interest.

Looking forward to your impressions at home.

I'm a potential first time piano buyer (going to try a Novus out at a dealer tomorrow, along with a bunch of other pianos). If I decide I won't be satisfied with anything less than the Novus, would I look silly even bothering trying to negotiate the price, given it's so new/rare and already listed at almost 1000 GBP less than retail? Or is it a "never hurts to try" type situation? (edit: sorry for the off topic question BTW -- I'd be more than happy with a link to previous discussions about negotiating with dealers -- I tried searching myself but had trouble finding anything.)
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/10/18 01:49 AM
I don't know about regional differences, but as new and in demand as the Novus is, pianos aren't iPhones. Every dealer I called was eager to volunteer that they would negotiate the price they quoted to me. I don't know how many pianos a typical shop self a day/week but I assume many are happy to make a quick sale.
Posted By: rach3master Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/10/18 02:13 AM
Hi Gombessa/JoBert,

Congrats on your new purchase! As a current owner of an Avantgrand N1, I'm viewing the Novus with some interest, mainly to see how much, if any, improvement there is in the action to justify an upgrade. I have two questions:

1. How fast and reliable is the key repetition? In the N1, I find that there is a limit to how fast repeated notes can be made to sound independently. Take this video from Stephen Hough as an example. https://youtu.be/n9-XXix3wVA
When he warms slowly at :05 the N1 is able to handle that speed easily. However, when he goes full virtuoso at 2:13 the N1 simply cannot repeat notes that fast (although you might argue even the grand he is playing there is nearing its limit). How does the Novus fare in comparison?

2. How do glissandi feel? On the N1, the keys are rather stiff in this department, which makes performing certain glissandi painful, if not downright impossible. I know it is not merely my technique, since I have the fortune to be within driving distance of a Steinway retailer. I visited there just recently and was actually shocked at how easy and effortless it was to perform glissandi on any of their grands, in comparison.

These are my main (if not minor) quibbles with just the action itself on the N1. I don't make any considerations for the sound since I've fully bought into the VST "lifestyle" already.

Thanks.
Posted By: Osho Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/10/18 02:23 AM
Originally Posted by FaceKicker
Originally Posted by newer player
Good strategy JoBert. Supplies look limited for a while so just getting a NV10 is not possible for most; negotiating price is tough when there is virtually no supply but some strong interest.

Looking forward to your impressions at home.

I'm a potential first time piano buyer (going to try a Novus out at a dealer tomorrow, along with a bunch of other pianos). If I decide I won't be satisfied with anything less than the Novus, would I look silly even bothering trying to negotiate the price, given it's so new/rare and already listed at almost 1000 GBP less than retail? Or is it a "never hurts to try" type situation? (edit: sorry for the off topic question BTW -- I'd be more than happy with a link to previous discussions about negotiating with dealers -- I tried searching myself but had trouble finding anything.)

Definitely negotiate - there is enough wiggle room!

Think of MSRP as a number made out of thin air, with no relationship to the final street price 😀. I am exaggerating of course, but you get the idea.

Thanks
Osho
Posted By: FaceKicker Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/10/18 11:42 AM
Thanks a lot for the advice Gombessa and Osho! Glad I asked smile
Posted By: Dave Horne Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/10/18 02:45 PM
I just got back from a music store in Wijchen.

To make a long story much shorter, I wasn't overwhelmed.

The keyboard action wasn't crisp enough for my taste. It was a decent action, certainly not as bad Casio's venture into hybrid territory, but I wasn't thrilled with it. It wasn't bad, I just didn't find it to my liking.

I also have a complaint with the sound of the top octave, it's much too much forward when going through the built in sound system. (I realize everything can be tweaked, but out the box the top octave was too bright and too much in my face, so to speak.)

There were plenty of piano sounds from which to choose (as well as other sound groups). I wouldn't fault the basic piano sound though through headphones (Sennheiser HD598) I had to tweak the piano as there was too much bass in the piano EQ.

You can save your preferences in a Favorite setting but turning the piano off and on deletes any changes you might have made on the fly (without saving to Favorites).

I'm glad I tried it but I won't be trading in my N3 anytime soon.

At the very least, it's great that Yamaha has more competition in the hybrid field. I'd love to have a job where there was an NV10 every night for me to play; I just wouldn't want to own one as my full time practice piano.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/10/18 02:51 PM
Thanks for posting your impressions Dave. Glad you finally had a chance to try it out!

I figured it would never be the case that the target audience for the NV-10 would be existing hybrid owners (any more than your typical N3 owner would jump to upgrade to the N3X) but its entry into the market does give new customers something to compare against the AGs.
Posted By: funkycornwall Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/10/18 04:29 PM
I am visiting London mid-March for a few days. I thought I’d like to try an NV-10 but when I contacted main London Kawai dealer Rose-Morris they said they might have one at then end of March. Does anyone know of any other London Kawai dealers I could contact? I live down in Cornwall so no chance down here. I am surprised if I can’t find one to play in London
Posted By: Dave Horne Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/10/18 04:31 PM
Have you called Bonner's?
Posted By: Osho Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/10/18 05:13 PM
@Dave: Thanks for posting your review.

What did you think of action compared to N3? About same, slightly better/worse?

How about the Pianist mode sound?

Thanks,
Osho
Posted By: Grandman Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/10/18 06:32 PM
Originally Posted by Dave Horne
I just got back from a music store in Wijchen.

To make a long story much shorter, I wasn't overwhelmed.

The keyboard action wasn't crisp enough for my taste. It was a decent action, certainly not as bad Casio's venture into hybrid territory, but I wasn't thrilled with it. It wasn't bad, I just didn't find it to my liking.

I also have a complaint with the sound of the top octave, it's much too much forward when going through the built in sound system. (I realize everything can be tweaked, but out the box the top octave was too bright and too much in my face, so to speak.)

There were plenty of piano sounds from which to choose (as well as other sound groups). I wouldn't fault the basic piano sound though through headphones (Sennheiser HD598) I had to tweak the piano as there was too much bass in the piano EQ.

You can save your preferences in a Favorite setting but turning the piano off and on deletes any changes you might have made on the fly (without saving to Favorites).

I'm glad I tried it but I won't be trading in my N3 anytime soon.

At the very least, it's great that Yamaha has more competition in the hybrid field. I'd love to have a job where there was an NV10 every night for me to play; I just wouldn't want to own one as my full time practice piano.



Thanks, Dave for sharing your thoughts. My feeling was similar to yours when trying it at NAMM, but I do admit the noise at NAMM made it hard to tell definitively. I did not find the action to be indistinguishable from the Kawai acoustics. But its great that Yamaha now has some competition..
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/10/18 06:36 PM
Interesting to hear your opinion, Dave. It was time we got a dissenting one here! wink
Originally Posted by Dave Horne
You can save your preferences in a Favorite setting but turning the piano off and on deletes any changes you might have made on the fly (without saving to Favorites).

That is not correct, if we are talking virtual technician settings. Those survive a power cycle too, if you remember to hit "store to sound".
Posted By: Dave Horne Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/10/18 06:40 PM
What did you think of action compared to N3? About same, slightly better/worse?

It wasn't to my liking. It wasn't bad, it was just different than my Yamaha action.


How about the Pianist mode sound?

I played around with the menu and made some changes within the Sound Mode area. I was there to try the piano and see if I liked it. I didn't spend a lot of time going through the menus. I pretty much used the sub menus just to adjust the specific sound to my liking.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/10/18 06:45 PM
I actually find saving on the new interface quite confusing and inconsistent.

"Settings" seems to save in real time.
"Virtual technician" seems to require "save to sound."
I'm not sure how "Sound Settings" and some other entries relate to ”save to favorites" or some other scheme.

Similarly, the bottom navbar sometimes persists within a submenu. Sometimes it changes to an "X" exit button. Sometimes it disappears and a top menu "back"button appears. I think I'm some cases a combination of the above happens?

Though you can save some settings to favorites, it's not really clear which elements are affected by favorites and which aren't. And you can't save anything to a currently existing favorite, it seems you need to create a new favorite every time you want to save?

All of these seem to be addressable software issues but I did find a free of the UI decisions curious/unintuitive for a first time user.
Posted By: terminaldegree Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/10/18 07:33 PM
Originally Posted by Grandman
My feeling was similar to yours when trying it at NAMM, but I do admit the noise at NAMM made it hard to tell definitively.


I wish I knew you were going this year - it would have been fun to meet in person!
Posted By: Francis Martin Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/10/18 08:27 PM
@ Dave
With interest I have read your report posted above.

As a private amateur pianist an upgrade from a N3 to a NV10 maybe makes not so great sense, as long as you are satisfied with the keyboard and the mechanics of the N3, have no greater demands on the only few built-in piano samples (technical status approx. 2008) and at home maybe also does not want to save sound-sceneries or just don’t need to.

But if you have bigger demands on keyboard and mechanics, then the used Millennium III action in the NV10 is far ahead of the very simple and smaller keyboard/mechanics of the N3 in terms of technology and feel. I also do not think that YAMAHA will be at eye level with KAWAI in the near future, i.g. within the next 5 years, because KAWAI's lead over YAMAHA is already too big.
For example, I think the CS11 is superior to the clp685. And I have read some reports here which confirm that. The new CA-98 corresponds to a future CS12 (black polished, which is very important for the export-market outside Japan!). To make up for that, YAMAHA should already have at least the CLP800 series running. KAWAI is already two generations ahead!

The action (mechanics/keyboard) of YAMAHA has a number of disadvantages compared to those of KAWAI. And if you want to keep it on playable level, the YAMAHA action is permanently quite expensive due to maintenance. The YAMAHA-action runs out quickly (leiert schnell aus) due to its design. This affects the front rail punchings, the cushions, the felts around the pins (Tasten-Garnierungen) and capsule screws often have to be tightened, otherwise you will not be able to play it at all. This not only applies to the AvantGrand series, but also to their acoustic instruments (only, if heavily played every day). The Millennium III from KAWAI, on the other hand, is considerably less expensive and stays at a high level for much longer, although this experience currently only applies to acoustic KAWAI instruments. In public, I have not yet played on KAWAI digital pianos.

Likewise, the CFIIIS-sample used in the N3 cannot be compared with the much more authentic sound density and subtleties and the overall sophistication of the NV10 SK-EX-samples in pianist mode (technical status approx. 2016) or even before in the older sound mode. Add to that the numerous possibilities of the Virtual-Technician, which are always very, very useful and with which you can really work.

The N3 but also the N3X does not offer these possibilities at all. Here is: Take the sound as it is or let it just stay. Not to mention the impossible old-fashioned 80's operation with buttons and keyboard shortcuts. Nobody, neither me nor my colleagues uses this before or during performances. Simply said, these keyboard shortcuts are just too dangerous to use while the audience is listening! That's real life, because it is live. In addition, this operation distracts way too much, and you lose its concentration.

In contrast, with KAWAI, in particular the favorites-function (or the setups in the MP series) allows you to call up completely different sound scenarios within seconds.

This is not only "fun", but especially for professional users - e.g. 5 different pianists on the same instrument on different days in a hotel or on a ship (lobby/restaurant/bar) – is absolute prerequisite, so to speak survival necessary. It is necessary to ensure a varied program (fast changes not only with repertoire) during one evening (4-5 sets à 45 minutes) and with daily changing pianists. And every pianist has his own preferences regarding sound and setups.

I have played countless public appearances on AvantGrand-series instruments since 2009 and can definitely say that these instruments have a limited use for professional gigs. You can use them, of course, but they are a great annoyance in many ways, since the feeling of the action - weights and lever ratios - only corresponds to that of a beginner's grand piano, and the sonic yield due to a very one-dimensional sound is inferior to even a small but voiced and tuned grand piano.

However, I follow the deficiencies in the UI in various threads, as they are expressed in great detail and with great urgency, e.g. by JoeBert, Gombessa and others.
But I'm sure that the bugs will be solved until the Musikmesse 2018 for the most part.
But, the LCD touchscreen is really a game changer!
Of course it has to work reliably. And the numerous mentioned, some excellent suggestions for improvement should be implemented as soon as possible. Fantastic, how the PW members work here with such a great and very often professional creativity. Seems, that a few members here are doing the whole beta-testing including the output in form of corresponding reports.


Posted By: Dave Horne Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/10/18 09:00 PM
But if you have bigger demands on keyboard and mechanics, then the used Millennium III action in the NV10 is far ahead of the very simple and smaller keyboard/mechanics of the N3 in terms of technology and feel.

I'm not a defender of Yamaha per se, but I have to comment on this.

The action of the N3 comes from a slightly modified six foot \ two meter grand. The mechanical technology of grand pianos is a mature one. The improvements we see today are just very small incremental improvements. (Of course, improvements on paper count more to some folks while others simply play the instrument and base their opinions on what they hear and physically feel from the keyboard action.)

Having played the NV10, I personally don't feel the mechanics of the NV10 are superior, the feel is different, not to my liking, but I think you're going overboard in your praise of the NV10; it is what it is, a hybrid piano with lots of bells and whistles.

You know, I still see the predecessor of the AvantGrand, the GranTouch, on Dutch TV. Even that ... old technology sound great. smile

I think it's great that the NV10 has so many possibilities in sound editing. On the other hand, the GranTouch and AvantGrand sound excellent without any tweaking of the sound.

My needs are probably different than yours. I spend my time practicing and since the default piano sound of the N3 is superb, there's absolutely no need for me to further tweak it.


Posted By: Grandman Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/10/18 10:41 PM
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Originally Posted by Grandman
My feeling was similar to yours when trying it at NAMM, but I do admit the noise at NAMM made it hard to tell definitively.


I wish I knew you were going this year - it would have been fun to meet in person!


Likewise!! 😉
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/10/18 11:19 PM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
I actually find saving on the new interface quite confusing and inconsistent.

"Settings" seems to save in real time.
"Virtual technician" seems to require "save to sound."
I'm not sure how "Sound Settings" and some other entries relate to ”save to favorites" or some other scheme.

It's probably more intuitive for me, as it's quite similar to how the CA97 behaved, so I'm already used to it.
Posted By: bSharp(C)yclist Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/10/18 11:38 PM
I had a chance to play the NV10 this morning for about an hour. I am by no means an expert or a professional, but I thought I'd give some feedback. Keep in mind that my experience on piano has primarily been Yamaha only.

  • Price. Talk to the dealer. The numbers being thrown around on the forums here are too high. I'd tell you here what the MSRP and the street price that was on the sign. I figure it's public, so why not, but some might take offense to that. I advocate for the consumer. PM me if you are interested. The dealer felt it should be priced to compete with the N2.
  • The action, probably the most important. It felt good, although it didn't jump out and scream better than N2. N2 to me feels heavier, but I kind of like that. It's consistent with what I practice on at the music school, but all pianos are different. One needs to be able to adjust to all I guess.
  • Sound from the speakers - it's comparable to the N2. I think some asked if it would be loud enough or if it's as good as an AvantGrand. It sounded fine to me from the speakers.
  • Sustain pedal - I really like the effect. I could feel the vibration come up through my shoe and then through my body. I thought that was cool, along with the pedal sound effect, woosh.
  • LCD Panel - well, it certainly has Yamaha beat there. It's pretty intuitive I think, although you could probably get overwhelmed with options. Some don't like the little box on the N2, but it's simplistic if you're into that. Just turn it on, max the reverb, and then hide it. If some are having LCD issues, check if there is an update. The dealer mentioned there have been two already. Note, this dealer was at NAMM as well. I don't know if it's there in the settings, but it might be nice if you could turn off the LCD while playing.
  • Sound - it felt more bassy than the Yamaha, and the top register of notes are quite loud. I heard this when playing Waltz in A minor the high part there. I said, damn, that's loud! Perhaps that could be tweaked in the settings or use of a different preset. There are so many, I didn't have time to test them all. In terms of sound options, the advantage obviously goes to Kawai. However, I really wouldn't know when to choose Romantic, vs Pop, vs Jazz, vs Boogie, etc. But it could be good to have those options if you need them. I lean towards simplicity. On the N2 I use Voice 1, always.
  • Least important. Cosmetics. Can't say the speaker grills looked nice, but I guess one would get used to it. Why didn't Kawai put the name on the fallboard? The store had a nasty looking sticker. Also, how the fallboard aligns with the back of the keys. When you pressed a key, you would see the non white part of the key, the wooden gap. It was pretty noticeable, something I would expect to see when the fallboard was off, but not on.


I'd say check both the AvantGrand Series and NV10 and decide. Both are great instruments and it's going to come down to what is more important to you. The NV10 certainly has better and more modern technology, but I can't say if the action is any better - I'm certainly no action expert. If you're into all the technology options, then the NV10 might be better considering how it's priced. It might be worth the extra money. If it had been 12K street, I'd say probably not. Anyway, it will be interesting to see how Yamaha responds and what the future of the hybrid market will be.

The highlight of the trip was I got a "That was beautiful" from a customer in the store. I was playing a simple sonatina, Clementi Op 36, No 1 - Andante. Perhaps credit should go to Kawai on that, for it to sound good and get praise from a customer laugh

Enjoy your NV10s Jobert and Gobmessa! I expect you to show them off in the recital ;0
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/10/18 11:50 PM
Awesome, thanks for posting your impressions! Seems a lot of it is consistent with what others have said (allowing for personal variation and preferences).

I think Kawai name IS on some kind of laminated foil on the fallboard. That sticker is a protective film to keep the reflective lettering from tarnishing from fingerprints while in the shop. All of their acoustic pianos have the same film over the name, even (especially) the Shigerus.
Posted By: bSharp(C)yclist Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/10/18 11:53 PM
Oh, haha. It looked like a sticker blush
Posted By: Dave Horne Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/10/18 11:55 PM
bSharp, your post confirmed everything I encountered today. I played the NV10 for probably around an hour.

What I don't understand, why don't these companies test drive the piano on a handful of pianists and ask for their input. I would love to be a consultant.

It seems that the criticisms I have are shared with others. I was reluctant to mention the brightness of the top octave since it could have been the room itself, but now it seems it's f*cking bright.

I'm finishing my second glass of red wine. Cheers.

Posted By: Dave Horne Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/11/18 12:20 AM
Francis Martin, I'm confused.

You started a post with ... As a private amateur pianist ... though when I look at your profile I see, Professional pianist.

Which is it?
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/11/18 12:29 AM
Originally Posted by Dave Horne
I was reluctant to mention the brightness of the top octave since it could have been the room itself, but now it seems it's f*cking bright.


That's actually kind of interesting. I assume the brighter top octaves are shared with other Kawai DPs (especially the CA-78/98 which share the same sound engine as the NV-10)? Or is it just something to do with the NV-10's amplification?

This reminds me of a related anecdote:

When I was shopping for a first home DP (after many years hiatus) I tried a bunch of other brands Rolands/Korgs/Kurzweils. And when I eventually got a Yamaha P-105, I brought it home, played it, and thought "Geez, why is the top octave SO incredibly quiet? I have to turn the volume up all the way and have the bass rattle the case just to get any real volume out of the top end!" I've since gotten used it after playing a boatload of Yamaha DPs, but coming from playing other brands, my reaction was that Yamaha DPs tend to be quiet in the top registers.

Nowadays, I don't really notice the difference anymore, I think I've just subconsciously gotten used to the variation between models/brands.
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/11/18 12:32 AM
BSharp, I saw that gombessa already explained about the logo "sticker". That was a nice laugh, thanks! wink

Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
Also, how the fallboard aligns with the back of the keys. When you pressed a key, you would see the non white part of the key, the wooden gap. It was pretty noticeable, something I would expect to see when the fallboard was off, but not on.
Strange. I actually just now went back to my piano and opened the fall board to check, and that's not how it is with my piano. The white keytop material extends about one centimeter (~0.4") beyond the felt edge of the opened fall board (the last two millimeters are beveled off). There's no way I could see the wood of the key sticks even when pressed down, unless I crouched down like Glenn Gould with back pain and purposely peeked into the gap. A quirk of the piano you tested? An improperly installed fall board? Strange indeed. (Gombessa, how is it on yours?)

Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
I expect you to show them off in the recital ;0
Sorry, not this time. My recital piece was already recorded and submitted before I even got the Novus. But next time, I promise!
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/11/18 12:41 AM
Originally Posted by JoBert
The white keytop material extends about one centimeter (~0.4") beyond the felt edge of the opened fall board (the last two millimeters are beveled off). There's no way I could see the wood of the key sticks even when pressed down, unless I crouched down like Glenn Gould with back pain and purposely peeked into the gap. A quirk of the piano you tested? An improperly installed fall board? Strange indeed. (Gombessa, how is it on yours?)


Mine is like yours, JoBert. The white and black surfaces extend a bit behind the fallboard. BUT, when you're sitting down and playing, you are at an angle where you can definitely see the natural wood color behind (especially on the black keys). Double feature below, including the infamous decal smile

[Linked Image]

Here's the thing. My "reference piano" for everything is a $200k 214cm Bosendorfer grand, which I'm an incredibly lucky and undeserving hack to get to plink on regularly. That piano doesn't even have the 1cm extension of the white keytops, they end exactly where the fallboard felt touches the keys (and IIRC that piano doesn't even have the felt strip on the fallboard). So I can see the natural wood even more clearly when I play on that. Also, there's no synthetic ivory surface on that piano, and it has no trouble staying grippy and comfortable after an hour or more. So I end up feeling more OK with these types of issues on a $10k hybrid wink
Posted By: bSharp(C)yclist Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/11/18 12:44 AM
Jobert - I'm glad that issue isn't there for you. It could be the fallboard wasn't on correctly to begin with. I hope that's the case. Little flaws like that would bug me given the price.
Posted By: bSharp(C)yclist Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/11/18 12:46 AM
That "sticker" looks a lot better than the one I saw laugh
Posted By: Dave Horne Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/11/18 12:50 AM
Yea, the NV10 I played today also had a piece of plastic over 'Kawai'. I assume this was protective covering to keep the brass inserts from discoloring.
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/11/18 01:10 AM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Mine is like yours, JoBert. The white and black surfaces extend a bit behind the fallboard. BUT, when you're sitting down and playing, you are at an angle where you can definitely see the natural wood color behind (especially on the black keys).

That's definitely different than on mine. I cannot see the natural wood when just sitting down to play. I have to crouch into an unnatural position (and possibly use a flashlight). Here's my version (I tried to recreate your picture as well as possible):

[Linked Image]

As you can see, the wooden part is well into the shadow below/behind the felt. So I asked my wife to shine a flash light into that gap and then I was able to see a bit of wood, but still less than on your picture, and for the black key only:

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Dave Ferris Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/11/18 01:16 AM
I'll jump in as I only played the Kawai briefly at NAMM. I did make it a point though to go directly from the Marriott after playing the N3X to the upstairs Kawai room.

I'm not an AG owner but have played them a lot over the years and I'm very familiar on how they feel and sound. With that said, and having maybe 15 minutes between playing the Yamaha and Kawai - I can definitely say I preferred the action response of the AG over the Kawai.

The N3X had a feel that when I played linearly on Jazz tunes, Standards and Blues -- which is what I mainly do - everything felt closer to the experience I have with my piano now and the Yamaha grands I've owned in the past.

The NV-10 seemed not as responsive and more sluggish in that area. I could tell my improvising flow was slower and creative connection wasn't as sharp as on the Yamaha. I thought the Kawai fared best for more chordal playing. I do see how a more classically oriented player might prefer the feel of the NV-10.

Even though I didn't spent not all that long on the Kawai, I can usually get a handle on whether I connect with an instrument, or not, very quickly. And finally, all the bells and whistles are lost on me. I'm a player and am most concerned about the music. I'm not a tweeker or tech guy. smile
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/11/18 02:01 AM
Originally Posted by JoBert
That's definitely different than on mine. I cannot see the natural wood when just sitting down to play....

As you can see, the wooden part is well into the shadow below/behind the felt. So I asked my wife to shine a flash light into that gap and then I was able to see a bit of wood, but still less than on your picture, and for the black key only


Ah! I think I have an idea of what's going on. There may be some variation in the positioning of the keybed against the chassis. Yours seems pretty "standard." Mine might be a few mm "forward". Here are a few angled shots of the back and front of the keys:

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

What I can see is that the back of my keys are about 2mm forward of the felt (something I haven't seen in a typical acoustic grand).

The front of the keys are about 2-2.5mm from the keyslip, which seems fairly standard (but I've seen bigger gaps).
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/11/18 02:12 AM
Earlier I mentioned that I was getting ground loop buzzing when connecting a VST to the line-in of the NV10. I got the iFi iDefender 3.0 in today, and I'm happy to say that the buzzing is all but eliminated.

The ironic thing is that I'm not sure this is the permanent setup I want, so I might not have a real functional use for the iDefender.

My main goal is to have the easiest way to run a VST for headphones and also let my family play through the speakers when they want. Digging through settings to find "local control" isn't ideal. And of course I'd like to minimize pulling the headphone jack in/out as much as possible, for long-term reliability.

Even with the iDefender installed, once the line-in is connected, there is a perceptible "noise floor" in the NV-10's built in speakers at normal playing volume, that doesn't appear with the built in tone generator.

Again, I don't think the NV-10 has a noise gate. From my experience with PC audio equipment, this noise floor seems fairly normal?

Also, with line-in, I get the benefit of choosing whether to play Garritan CFX or SK-Rendering with minimal hassle, but to get the piano into "regular acoustic mode" my kid has to pull the headphones out, and find and enable Local Control within settings (this setting doesn't seem to be impacted by Favorites). Further, it's a pretty delicate balance of adjusting three different settings (physical line-in knob on the NV-10, software line-in level in Settings, physical volume knob) to eliminate clipping and still get appropriate volume dynamics through the headphones (though I appreciate that there are so many levels of control to fine-tune).

Instead, I'll probably run the setup I had for my MP11 - headphone output through the Macbook running CFX, local control on, and volume knob on the NV-10 set to zero. That way, I play CFX when practicing on headphones, and when anyone wants to play the piano through speakers, they just have to turn the NV-10 on and adjust the volume (and they get the built-in Pianist mode rendering by default). Easy-peasy, lemon-squeezy.

It's also a bit simpler on the cable routing end, and eliminates the need to plug/unplug headphones into the NV-10 directly.
Posted By: danielp11 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/11/18 07:40 AM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by JoBert
The white keytop material extends about one centimeter (~0.4") beyond the felt edge of the opened fall board (the last two millimeters are beveled off). There's no way I could see the wood of the key sticks even when pressed down, unless I crouched down like Glenn Gould with back pain and purposely peeked into the gap. A quirk of the piano you tested? An improperly installed fall board? Strange indeed. (Gombessa, how is it on yours?)


Mine is like yours, JoBert. The white and black surfaces extend a bit behind the fallboard. BUT, when you're sitting down and playing, you are at an angle where you can definitely see the natural wood color behind (especially on the black keys). Double feature below, including the infamous decal smile

[Linked Image]

Here's the thing. My "reference piano" for everything is a $200k 214cm Bosendorfer grand, which I'm an incredibly lucky and undeserving hack to get to plink on regularly. That piano doesn't even have the 1cm extension of the white keytops, they end exactly where the fallboard felt touches the keys (and IIRC that piano doesn't even have the felt strip on the fallboard). So I can see the natural wood even more clearly when I play on that. Also, there's no synthetic ivory surface on that piano, and it has no trouble staying grippy and comfortable after an hour or more. So I end up feeling more OK with these types of issues on a $10k hybrid wink


Hi Gombessa,

maybe you just can slide the whole action a few millimeters back in, like on a real acoustc grand, where you can move the whole action like a drawer. Maybe it went forward a few millimeters by transportation?

Watch this to see how to remove (and move) the action of a real grand piono https://youtu.be/xd7_g9LL9rE

Daniel
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/11/18 08:19 AM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
What I can see is that the back of my keys are about 2mm forward of the felt (something I haven't seen in a typical acoustic grand).

The front of the keys are about 2-2.5mm from the keyslip, which seems fairly standard (but I've seen bigger gaps).

It's hard to tell from the pictures, but it does indeed seem as if the gap between keys and felt is a tiny bit larger on yours. I would say that mine has about 1mm there. The front seems about the same though (I don't have an excessive gap there), so I don't think the position of the action is different. Probably a slight tolerance in the position of the fallboard or the felt.
Posted By: pianistje Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/11/18 10:06 AM
Originally Posted by Dave Ferris
I'll jump in as I only played the Kawai briefly at NAMM. I did make it a point though to go directly from the Marriott after playing the N3X to the upstairs Kawai room.

I'm not an AG owner but have played them a lot over the years and I'm very familiar on how they feel and sound. With that said, and having maybe 15 minutes between playing the Yamaha and Kawai - I can definitely say I preferred the action response of the AG over the Kawai.

The N3X had a feel that when I played linearly on Jazz tunes, Standards and Blues -- which is what I mainly do - everything felt closer to the experience I have with my piano now and the Yamaha grands I've owned in the past.

The NV-10 seemed not as responsive and more sluggish in that area. I could tell my improvising flow was slower and creative connection wasn't as sharp as on the Yamaha. I thought the Kawai fared best for more chordal playing. I do see how a more classically oriented player might prefer the feel of the NV-10.

Even though I didn't spent not all that long on the Kawai, I can usually get a handle on whether I connect with an instrument, or not, very quickly. And finally, all the bells and whistles are lost on me. I'm a player and am most concerned about the music. I'm not a tweeker or tech guy. smile

I believe you are simply a Yamaha guy,.......great if it works for you.
I know you really dig the CP4 soundwise and actionwise.
I personally think the Kawai wooden keys ( which i own) are far ahead of Yamaha's equivalents and Nord soundwise on stage and through the FOH.......
But not for you, which shows us how very subjective everything is.... and i know you are a very good player so don't see this as critique !


I know the differences between Kawai and Yamaha grands and like them both very much !!
The N3 i like very much , but i still have to play the Novus 10.
Posted By: Dave Horne Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/11/18 12:01 PM
Francis Martin, As a private amateur pianist an upgrade from a N3 to a NV10 maybe makes not so great sense, ...

I incorrectly responded to that comment. I thought you were referring to yourself as an amateur pianist, you were referring to me. smile

Actually, I'm a professional pianist as well. Except for a few years over 40 years ago, all of my earnings have come directly from playing the piano. Since the financial crisis of 2008 there's been less work but I've now arrived at a point in my life where I don't need to work if I don't want to.
Posted By: Dave Ferris Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/11/18 02:25 PM
Originally Posted by pianistje
I believe you are simply a Yamaha guy,.


If anything, I would consider myself a "Steinway guy". smile

I don't play digital pianos all that often in general these days.....except at NAMM. grin

Originally Posted by pianistje
I know you really dig the CP4 soundwise and actionwise.
I personally think the Kawai wooden keys ( which i own) are far ahead of Yamaha's equivalents and Nord soundwise on stage and through the FOH...


Maybe something's lost in the translation but I don't see how my preference for a stage piano - one that I use infrequently and another I sold 3.5 years ago - and how either fares through a sound system/ PA is relevant to anything I posted, or what is being discussed in this thread about hybrid digital pianos. confused

Originally Posted by pianistje
I know the differences between Kawai and Yamaha grands and like them both very much !!


Still not seeing the connection with either hybrid being discussed but I do as well and certainly agree with you. smile


Posted By: Francis Martin Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/11/18 10:48 PM
Dear Dave,
thanks a lot for your answers! Sorry I have not written to your post yesterday, 10:00 PM. But you have addressed a number of very important things that I want to address conscientiously. Only for that I need time. I hope I get to it on Tuesday. The topic is quite difficult and needs a certain amount of detail. But that's not up to you, it's the thing per se.
For me you belong to those PW-members who ask the "right questions", see your post from 03/30/17 and later on, see also below P.S ..
Others do the same for other very important topics, e.g. the issues with the UI/Touchscreen.

In fact, I do not mean myself "As a private amateur pianist…" but even with [...]"as long as you are" [...] I definitely not mean you! To mean you would be somewhat outrageous on my part. My apologies if you misunderstood as addressed an amateur. That was definitely not my intention.
In the German language in a discussion with strangers you can address things with "you" without meaning himself with whom you speak, but the reference here is meant abstractly, without meaning anyone in the round. In this case “you” are indefinite people outside, i.e. “all amateurs” not: “You Dave as an amateur…”.
I do not know if there is such a thing in the Dutch language either. The problem is that I think and dream in German and then try to translate into English ... read later for a Dutchman, from you (and from others). Of course it would be much easier for me to write in German. It would also be much faster and much more precise. But I’m afraid that would be unreasonable here in the forum. So I try to give also my best as far as English is concerned. Probably JoBert and other Germans are from the stand better in English.

I learn from this that I have to pay even more attention to the fact that through my translations (and sometimes with the help of a translation-tool) possible misunderstandings do not occur.
For my post of yesterday 09:00 PM I need, for example much longer time to write this halfway clean in English as an American or English member. This is one of the reasons why I write much less posts here than others.

By the way, since I'm also visting sometimes hotels and music colleges (Musikhochschulen) to "spy" on other pianists (that's what every colleague does), I am often surprised by whoever acts as an professional and plays for Gage or gets an applause. Often their "art" is anything but "professional". I know some amateurs who cannot even read music and are really gifted pianists. Being amateur is no shame! …for all here who are not “professionals”. On the other hand, many so called "professionals" should not perform publicly, because you can hear if someone does not have fun playing the piano. Of course you - here we are: not you Dave - can also be totally untalented and do not know it. That makes me really angry because such pianists take the place to others and better.

With best regards, Frank.
Your collegue!


P.S .: I've been following the NV10 threads since the end of March last year. Especially your post, Dave, of 03/30/17 about the size (depth) of the KAWAI Millennium III-keyboard of the NV10 in relation to its corresponding KAWAI grand model I found very interesting! I thought to myself: "These are just the right questions! Hopefully he will not let up and will get answers." In fact, you have posted your question several times after that. The last time I mean was on 12/20/17. That really impressed me and was one of the reason to pursue the corresponding NV10 threads. That's why I wrote you in your own thread "Kawai in the Netherlands" when you were looking for a suitable dealer in your area.

And now I hope this post gets a bit more interesting to all here:
As far as I can remember, Kawai James has had no response to your questions from 03/30/17 and several other posts from you Dave, regarding this topic, even if this specific question was not explicitly addressed to him, AFAIK. But just because it was here by a number of members last year for quite a long period of time about exactly this topic, especially in relation to the AvantGrand series, I would have expected an answer from Kawai James. It is really irritating. What is there to hide?

The topic "leverage" is also not too complex. In particular, because here are some very interested members who want to understand these things. But although, this is about much more than just the so-called "pivot-length". To know that one length is indeed only one clue, but indeed an important one. Another important measure is the length between the pivot-point and the center of the capstan screw (center or focus of the so called “Pilote”) or otherwise: the length from the leading edge of the key to the capstan-screw minus the length from the leading edge of the key to the pivot-point (center of the " Balance rail key pin "). And even both values do not yet describe the entire lever-travel, which goes then through the wippen (Hebeglied) to the point of the hammer-head, which defines the contact-point with the string, of course even with hybrid-action, where no strings are!

These at least two values together give a lot of information about what size of action you have "in front of you", a so called “concert-grand action” (approx. 270cm and even longer) or a so called “baby-grand action ” (approx. 145cm to 170cm) or in between a “salon-grand action” to “semi-concert-grand action”.
Probably a first clue is the “overall keystick-length”, cause as easy as it is, a really long concert-grand-keystick will actually not have a very short baby-grand-front lever way (pivot-length). But actually the total length of the key stick does not say a lot.

Two other very, very important values are the “key dip” (Tastentiefgang), which you can measure yourself with a ruler, and the hammer distance to the strings (Steighöhe), which is a bit difficult to define in a hybrid-piano. Of more importance here is the route of the shutter opening – the shutter is mounted on the hammer-shank (Hammerstiel) near the hammer-knuckle (Hammerröllchen).

The “key dip” should be about 9,5 to 10,5mm (6/16 in. to just before 7/16 in.). Don’t press the key down with pressure, otherwise you could get key-dips arround 13-14mm. This also depends on the quality of the “front rail punchings”. (Vorderdruckscheiben+Vorderstiftgarnierung). Just press down in a manner that the key is put on the rail punchings with good contact to it. Feel when the key touches the punchings with the presseure of let's say p (for piano), but then it should be nearer to 9,5mm and not more. If harder, then 10mm.

Would be interesting to read, what is measured here. Could you probably do this with some keys from bottom to top @ JoBert and @ Gombessa and you @ Dave? Would surely be helpful to all.

Incidentally, what worries me about the AvantGrand series are the extremely many lead-weights that are built into the keys. This is not good at all, and indicates that the front lever, the pivot-length, is too short to save at least two of these weights in a key. But that would be absolutely desirable. A lot of lead in the keys is obviously needed to handle unfavorable leverage at the front. As a result, however, new problems arise due to the inertia of the higher mass. Remedy would have brought here either with a lighter hammer-head and/or a lighter hammer-core or just a correspondingly longer front-lever section to compensate better for the total weight of the rear lever-section (part of the keystick behind the balance rail pin (Waagebalkenstift) with wippen (Hebeglied) and hammer) without so much lead. The first alternative - lighter hammer heads and/or hammer cores - maybe wasn’t already possible, since this weight was perhaps already calculated as minimal as possible and there was no further margin down.

A last thing for today, which is a real ugly issue, and I’m sure, that you, James, as KAWAIs digital piano specialist, could help very efficiently for the NV10 units which will be built in the future: It seems that the felt below the fallboard stands out too little from the fallboard. It should have a distance perhaps about 1mm to the back side of the upper-keys (Obertaste) but not more. And it seems that the fallboard probably has a bit too much distance to the upper-keys. The bare wood area behind the standardized white key-tops and the black upper-keys really should not be visible when the fallboard is fully opened. I'm sure you've seen the pictures in some posts above.

For my humble opinion that's a matter of quality control in the KAWAI plant in Indonesia. AFAIK there are always some officers from KAWAI Japan in the house, that can be asked if anything is “not clear”. Knowing the serial-number of the affected NV10, they could definitely check out, who was responsible to sign off the accompanying ticket/note before the instrument was packed. I think they should really know, that there is/are customer(s) on the other side of the world who really care about such things. Such issues should be stopped immediately. So, maybe it's the right way to get in contact with the quality manager there, please? I do not know if that still is Mr. Suyono.

And in addition, maybe it should also be considered, whether one rather uses the red felt under the fallboard instead of the black one? That looks simply more elegant and valuable for my opinion, as I believe others have already mentioned here in this or other threads.
In other words: why not use the black felt on the KAWAI acoustic grands instead of the red ones?
No, I think the expectation is: red.
For BECHSTEIN: probably green. I know, KAWAI once used: blue.

Thank you James, if you can help.

For those interested in getting some insights into the work of KAWAI Indonesia:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OPT3A6e8TU

Beginning at 4:33 you can see very nicely how the keyframe is prepared to insert the keysticks into the key pins. You can also see how the white key-tops are polished. Finally some regulation work on the mechanics of the action.

Sorry, if some of you already should know this clip.
Posted By: Osho Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/11/18 11:32 PM
Frank,

Interesting post smile I think the right way to say what you are trying to say is "one can do.." instead of "you can do.." in English smile

I agree red felt will look much better. That is partly why I like Yamaha's DP look.

I also agree that there seems to be quality control issue with early Kawai Novus NV10 if you can see inside wood in one case and not in another case. Hope Kawai clears this up soon.

Osho
Posted By: bSharp(C)yclist Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/11/18 11:35 PM
What I saw yesterday was a lot worse than what Gombessa showed. But then again, my eyes could be bad. I obviously don't know the difference between a sticker and decal laugh
Posted By: ando Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/11/18 11:40 PM
As somebody who speaks both languages: it's exactly the same in German or English: "you" could mean a specific person or a theoretical person or people. It depends on the context and the skill of the person in conveying the message. It's slang/spoken language so context is critical. Forums tend to be in a conversational style rather than scientific discourse mode - that's why misunderstandings happen pretty frequently. Scientific discourse uses precise terms and things like "you" are rarely misunderstood.
Posted By: Dave Horne Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/11/18 11:47 PM
Just for minor clarification, I hold a Dutch passport and speak some Dutch. My first passport comes from the US.

Without being political, I can safely state that Francis Martin's command of English is better than the current US President. (That's not much of a compliment, but it's a compliment just the same. smile )
Posted By: Francis Martin Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/12/18 12:59 AM
Dave,
I'm just shaking with laughter. Really, that's great.
You made me cofveve! ...or was it covfefe? Don't know. So sad.
Glad to know you, Dave.

Osho,
I was really thinking of asking a native-speaker, because I was not sure if it would be better in future to write :
Trump: "As long as one knows, that Air Force One is my plane." Bob Mueller: "You mean, it's your Air Force One?" Trump: "Yes. I have actually two Air Force Ones". Bob Mueller: "Oh, I see. Do you actually know the 25th amendment?" Trump: "What for?" Bob Mueller: "For you." Trump: "Right! I'm the greatest President of the US of A. All amendments are mine."

Sounds a bit strange, but obviously it is better English.
Thank you Osho. Of course, I don't wanna end like Trump!!

ando,
Respect. That was really accurate.This answer could have come from Spock. You could write dialogues for "Star Trek" movies or for the next "Star Wars"-Episode, especially for C3PO.
I didn't know, that I would be able to write in English slang. I feel valued.

By the way, you can be really happy, that you have such a great piano-Inventor in Australia: Wayne Stuart and his STUART & SONS grands. Theses grands are sonically unbelievable good. Far ahead of probably any other manufacturers. My opinion.

I really like you guys!




Posted By: ando Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/12/18 01:25 AM
Originally Posted by Francis Martin

ando,
Respect. That was really accurate.This answer could have come from Spock. You could write dialogues for "Star Trek" movies or for the next "Star Wars"-Episode, especially for C3PO.
I didn't know, that I would be able to write in English slang. I feel valued.

Lol, that sounds like a pretty fun job actually!

Your English is very good, don't worry.

Quote
By the way, you can be really happy, that you have such a great piano-Inventor in Australia: Wayne Stuart and his STUART & SONS grands. Theses grands are sonically unbelievable good. Far ahead of probably any other manufacturers. My opinion.


Yes, the Stuart and Sons pianos are magnificent. I've heard them but never had the chance to play one. They have a beautiful rich sound and gorgeous appearance with natural wood finishes. If I ever won the lotto, they would be in my top 5 to consider. The others would be Bösendorfer, Fazioli, Steinway, Yamaha SX. 9-foot, of course, just right for my newly built backyard concert hall - a big win in the lotto allows many things! wink
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/12/18 02:29 AM
Originally Posted by genuse

1. How fast and reliable is the key repetition? In the N1, I find that there is a limit to how fast repeated notes can be made to sound independently. Take this video from Stephen Hough as an example. https://youtu.be/n9-XXix3wVA
When he warms slowly at :05 the N1 is able to handle that speed easily. However, when he goes full virtuoso at 2:13 the N1 simply cannot repeat notes that fast (although you might argue even the grand he is playing there is nearing its limit). How does the Novus fare in comparison?

2. How do glissandi feel? On the N1, the keys are rather stiff in this department, which makes performing certain glissandi painful, if not downright impossible. I know it is not merely my technique, since I have the fortune to be within driving distance of a Steinway retailer. I visited there just recently and was actually shocked at how easy and effortless it was to perform glissandi on any of their grands, in comparison.


Hi genuse,

Sorry I didn't respond to your post earlier. Frankly, I'm not sure I'm up to snuff as a pianist to be able to really comment on technique at that level! But I will say that no matter how fast I repeat notes (3-2-1 or alternating hands), the NV-10 absolutely keeps up. No issues at all repeating while the keys have only partially returned, either.

As to gliss, it's not as featherweight-effortless as some pianos, as you've mentioned. But it's just fine. I play on some oldish uprights (Yamaha U3s mainly) and some of those are absolutely impossible to gliss.


Originally Posted by danielp11

Hi Gombessa,

maybe you just can slide the whole action a few millimeters back in, like on a real acoustc grand, where you can move the whole action like a drawer. Maybe it went forward a few millimeters by transportation?

Watch this to see how to remove (and move) the action of a real grand piono https://youtu.be/xd7_g9LL9rE

Daniel


Haha, maybe one day. But unless Kawai James chimes in about it being something I should be concerned about, neither the distance of the back of the keys to the fallboard or the visibility of the wooden keysticks bothers me. I think you might be right that was some movement during shipping, though I would imagine the action is secured to the frame somehow rather than just sliding around free in there?

One more quick pic for the day. I worked a bit on cable management, mainly trying to eliminate the clutter from the laptop/VST. I put a command strip hook on the wall behind the piano to route the headphone and USB cable in a more hidden way behind the NV-10. I also fixed a cable holder next to the headphone hook so it's not just hanging down from the back. The headphone hook itself is not big enough for the heavily padded HD598 headband so I'm using a printed hook. I'm thinking about pulling the piano further from the wall by a couple of inches so that I can completely hide the surge protector on the floor.

[Linked Image]

Posted By: Pete14 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/12/18 02:43 AM
Have you considered a Mac mini? You could mount it on the wall behind the piano for the cleanest look possible.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/12/18 04:54 AM
Originally Posted by Pete14
Have you considered a Mac mini? You could mount it on the wall behind the piano for the cleanest look possible.


Maybe, but going headless wouldn't work too well for me at the moment. I still have to occasionally restart CFX or reboot the Mac (or change settings), and that's a bit of a hassle.
Posted By: newer player Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/12/18 05:28 AM
Nice photos Gombessa - that looks like a good place to play. Hope you are enjoying your new toy.

Do you notice a sound difference using speakers with the music up?

Did you try different velocity curves & dynamic ranges in Garritan CFX?

A few superfical thoughts:

> I would consider mounting or hanging your power strip under the piano so it is out of sight rather than moving the unit.

> The headphone cable looks like a tripping hazard. Or if it catches on someone's foot could ruin the headphone jack on the kawai / headphone cable. I can't think of a good gizmo for that other than maybe winding a long loop around the hangar each time you put the headphones down.

> Not sure if a low table would be less precarious for the laptop. Similar risk of breaking usb-in on the Kawai / destroying laptop / damaging nice flooring.
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/12/18 05:31 AM
Hello Dave,

Thank you for sharing your comments about the NV10.

Originally Posted by Dave Ferris
I'll jump in as I only played the Kawai briefly at NAMM.
...
Even though I didn't spent not all that long on the Kawai...


Please don't take this the wrong way, however over in the Keyboard Corner forum, you mentioned playing the NV10 for less than 30 seconds at NAMM.

Am I correct in thinking that that was an understatement?

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: danielp11 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/12/18 05:36 AM
Originally Posted by gombessa

...though I would imagine the action is secured to the frame somehow rather than just sliding around free in there?...



Hi Gombessa, just for info: At least in the acoustic grands of most brands, the action does indeed slide around free, as explained in the video.

Daniel
Posted By: Osho Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/12/18 07:14 AM
Originally Posted by danielp11
Originally Posted by gombessa

...though I would imagine the action is secured to the frame somehow rather than just sliding around free in there?...



Hi Gombessa, just for info: At least in the acoustic grands of most brands, the action does indeed slide around free, as explained in the video.


That's interesting. If the action can slide freely, what happens to the action when the acoustic grand piano is transported?

Osho
Posted By: mabraman Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/12/18 08:45 AM
I can see that NV-10 has no wheels. Is it easy to move inside the house? Wouldn't it be risky to move the piano? I mean, the junctions could crack.
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/12/18 11:03 AM
Originally Posted by mabraman
I can see that NV-10 has no wheels. Is it easy to move inside the house? Wouldn't it be risky to move the piano? I mean, the junctions could crack.

With 130kg, the NV10 is very heavy. I would not slide it around, in fear of putting torque/shear stress on legs and base unit, except very carefully for small distances, e.g. to move a few centimeters or so into place. To move it around more, you I would want to lift and carry it. For this you have to have two strong people, having three wouldn't hurt. Lifting it on the main body is no problem though, it's very sturdy. That's how the piano movers brought it into our apartment: They took the main body out of the huge box that it came in and, still wrapped in the protective padding, carried it up two flights of stairs. (It would have been impossible to carry in the delivery box, both because it would have been a very tight fit on the stairs, and because that box doesn't have any handles where you can grip it.)
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/12/18 12:18 PM
Here's an update after my first week with my new NV10:

I'm happy to report that I'm fully in the rose-colored glasses honeymoon happiness phase with my new Novus. smile

All those things that I wrote about in my opening post, that I would have to get used to? I've done that. I don't even notice anymore that the pedal is further back below the piano. I've adjusted to the higher music rest (although I did some modding there, see below). The different touch? I can hardly remember how my CA97 felt different, that much I've adjusted to the new feel of Novus. The different sound? Same thing. I love the sound of the Novus' speakers and have totally gotten used to the different character of the sound projection. I also love pianist mode sound over headphones. - As you can see, honeymoon phase all the way! laugh

Apart from playing the piano, I also did a bit of DIY home improvement around the piano, for my new piano corner (the CA97 was flush against the wall in a different spot in the room), so if you are interested in that, please read on...

As I wrote about when I posted the first picture, I had to move the fire place a bit further along on the wall, so that it isn't so close to the piano, and I got and installed a new lamp for the piano. I'm very happy with the results:

[Linked Image]

And as I said, I did a bit of modding with the piano rest: Even in the most steepest angle, it was still angled back a bit too much for my taste. I wanted a stepper angle. I understand that such a steep angle does not make sense with paper books or single sheet scores, as the books would likely fall closed and the sheets would fold in on themselves, but since I'm almost exclusively playing the score from my tablet, I prefer the tablet to be steeper, i.e. more aligned to my viewing direction. Also when angled back to much, the glassy surface of the tablet would reflect the ceiling and piano lamps, making it impossible to read the score (a problem that you of course never have with paper scores).

So I took a strip of self adhesive felt, folded double so that it sticks to itself and not the piano (with a thin additional strip in the "knee" of the fold, for a tad of extra thickness) and zip-tied it to the piano rest strut:

[Linked Image]

So now, the strut is a bit longer than before and if set into the highest groove, the music rest is a bit steeper. Exactly that bit more that I needed for my tablet:

[Linked Image]

And as you can see in the first image, the piano is not flush against the wall but has a niche behind it that is large enough so that one can comfortably access the book case. So of course I needed to do something about the cables, so that there wouldn't be any tripping hazards. Plus, I wanted a three socket power outlet near the piano, so that I could plug in not only the piano but also the tablet and, in the future, possibly a VST computer. With all this installed, this is how it now looks behind my piano:

[Linked Image]

The grey strip is a floor cord cover that is low enough to fit below the ~15mm of space under the piano, so I could make it long enough to extend under the piano. From there the cable loops back out and feeds into the three socket outlet, where the piano is plugged in (the piano's cable also loops beneath the piano at first, as you can see in the front of the picture, and then loops back out again into the socket). The power supply for the tablet is also plugged in there, with the USB power cable to the tablet going straight up. You can see the latter a bit better in this picture:

[Linked Image]

In the picture above, about half way up the back of the piano (below the Kawai logo), I co-opted a back panel screw to (non-destructively) attach a zip-tie, to which in turn the cable is attached with a velcro tie. Then another such zip-tie/velcro-tie combo is attached to the music rest strut near the top, to hold the cable up if I unplug it from the tablet. I used velcro ties, so that I can easily detach the cable in case I need to take it with me.

cool
Posted By: bSharp(C)yclist Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/12/18 12:23 PM
Very nice setup, Jobert. Looks great!
Posted By: mabraman Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/12/18 12:28 PM
Happy honeymoon!!
Posted By: 9190 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/12/18 12:40 PM
Originally Posted by Osho
I agree red felt will look much better. That is partly why I like Yamaha's DP look.

+1. I wrote about this long time ago (as one of the wishes for "MP12"), and few times. I really don't get this black felt design decision by Kawai. For me it looks ugly and fake, since most grand pianos I've played had red felt. By the way, VPC1 has red felt (pictures one and two). Roland and Yamaha get this right. Today you can get red felt from Kawai only if you choose one of their cabinet piano in Rosewood color or aforementioned VPC1.
Posted By: Loga Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/12/18 01:03 PM
Originally Posted by 9190
Originally Posted by Osho
I agree red felt will look much better. That is partly why I like Yamaha's DP look.

+1. I wrote about this long time ago (as one of the wishes for "MP12"), and few times. I really don't get this black felt design decision by Kawai. For me it looks ugly and fake, since most grand pianos I've played had red felt. By the way, VPC1 has red felt (pictures one and two). Roland and Yamaha get this right. Today you can get red felt from Kawai only if you choose one of their cabinet piano in Rosewood color or aforementioned VPC1.


Can't this be easily replaced? When my small, old grand has been renovated, my technician replaced its old (I dunno what color) felt to new red ones. It looked really cool!
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/12/18 01:15 PM
Originally Posted by Loga
Can't this be easily replaced? When my small, old grand has been renovated, my technician replaced its old (I dunno what color) felt to new red ones. It looked really cool!

Yes, that would be easy, if one so desires. The felt is attached to the fallboard, which you can lift out with a simple maneuver. Personally, I hadn't even realized it was not red, until it was mentioned here again, so for me it's a non-issue. Then again, I've been playing a CA97 for >2 years, which also has a black felt, so I probably got used to that as "normal" a long while ago...
Posted By: parnassus Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/12/18 02:21 PM
How does the NV10 compare to a similarly priced upright? Say, a Kawai K500 as I haven’t had much time on the K600/K800.
Posted By: Bambers Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/12/18 03:55 PM
Originally Posted by Francis Martin

But if you have bigger demands on keyboard and mechanics, then the used Millennium III action in the NV10 is far ahead of the very simple and smaller keyboard/mechanics of the N3 in terms of technology and feel.


Well the key length difference isn't _that_ large and the feel is entirely subjective. It seems unlikely that yamaha concernt grands would remain so popular if the action was really that far behind! Regardless of maintainabiltiy there are clearly plenty of folk who prefer the yamaha action over the kawai millenium III.

Originally Posted by Francis Martin

I also do not think that YAMAHA will be at eye level with KAWAI in the near future, i.g. within the next 5 years, because KAWAI's lead over YAMAHA is already too big.
For example, I think the CS11 is superior to the clp685. And I have read some reports here which confirm that. The new CA-98 corresponds to a future CS12 (black polished, which is very important for the export-market outside Japan!). To make up for that, YAMAHA should already have at least the CLP800 series running. KAWAI is already two generations ahead!


I'm not sure two generations is accurate here either. The VRM reasonances in the 575/585 were, as far as I know, more advanced than the way kawai handled reasonances in the CAx7 line, and there are plenty that prefer the CFX sound over Kawai's. Kawai certainly had and still has the edge with setting customisabiltiy (and saving them) and obviously has now also switched to physical modelling with the pianist mode (though some of the customisability seems to have been lost as a result). The leap to the LCD is welcome but it's not something that yamaha would struggle to put in next time if it were their intention.

Same with the feel, while there are quite a few on here (myself included) that do not get on with yamaha's digital piano actions, there are some that do and outside of PW there seem to be plenty.
Posted By: PianoGuyStuart Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/12/18 04:22 PM
Originally Posted by PianoGuyStuart
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by Loga
Wow. This Kawai NV10 just sounds very good IMHO! More mature and full bodied than the N1! The price is quite high, but I will definitely try one (if I find a dealer near to my home).


Please note that the NV10's 'Pianist' mode sound engine is also found on the CA98/CA78 digital pianos. These models all share essentially the same audio processing hardware and Onkyo technology, so will sound identical when played through headphones.

Kind regards,
James
x


All these posts are very inspiring.

It is good that the action on the NV10 seems to be what most people hoped it would be (which is why most were buying it in the first place over the CA98).

James - Quick question on the headphone front.

1/ So, the CA98 and NV10 sound identical over headphones?

2/ What is the amplification capacity on the two Kawais? I currently have a Yamaha YDP163 and while that powers Audio Technica MX50 headphones quite nicely, it does a poor job at driving Sennheiser HD650 headphones. With more power I am guessing that the HD650s might be a good alternative. The MX50s are 38ohms, and the HD650s are 300 ohms. Would the CA98 and the NV10 be able to drive them effectively? ie what is the capacity on both?




Any thoughts on this Kawai James?
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/12/18 05:10 PM
How about that pivot length?
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/12/18 11:11 PM
Thanks for the comments newer player!

Originally Posted by newer player

Do you notice a sound difference using speakers with the music up?


Do you mean having the music rest up versus down? I don't notice a difference, but the OCD side of me can't unsee the fact that the music rest partially blocks the back speakers when it's laid flat. It's not a major point but I feel it has to be the result of some design/engineering tradeoff smile

What makes a small difference is when I have my large 2x2 binder up, which pretty much stands in front of all four top speakers. That's my regular setup though, so I've gotten used to it.

Originally Posted by newer player

Did you try different velocity curves & dynamic ranges in Garritan CFX?


I did play with it a bit, though for the moment I've reverted to the S-curve I used on the MP11. It responds fine, and I think the only adjustments I'll make in the future will be to try to equalize the response against a grand. I feel Garritan's standard curve is a bit aggressive (it gets loud too quickly, not making for easy p/pp dynamics).

Originally Posted by newer player

> I would consider mounting or hanging your power strip under the piano so it is out of sight rather than moving the unit.


That's a good idea. I actually found a "thinner" surge protector that fits between the NV10 and the wall. The power cabling is now completely hidden.

Originally Posted by newer player
> The headphone cable looks like a tripping hazard. Or if it catches on someone's foot could ruin the headphone jack on the kawai / headphone cable. I can't think of a good gizmo for that other than maybe winding a long loop around the hangar each time you put the headphones down.


Thankfully the cable isn't plugged into the NV-10, it's routed under the piano's top frame to the Mac, with a couple of loops to prevent the laptop from getting yanked. But yeah, it's a bit of a tripping hazard. When I'm not playing, I scoot the bench in to trap the cord, but I also can't think of a way to elegantly handle it without looping/unlooping.

Originally Posted by newer player
> Not sure if a low table would be less precarious for the laptop. Similar risk of breaking usb-in on the Kawai / destroying laptop / damaging nice flooring.


Lol, that laptop resting on a high stand sitting on a plush cushion was a temporary solution that eventually became permanent because I got too lazy to move it. The top of the piano is big enough where I might just put the laptop on top of it, which would completely hide the cables. I might try that tonight.

JoBert, your setup and room look amazing! You've got an eye for attention and detail and I really like how you've handled things like the music rest angle and the power cord.

I also can't help but tinker a bit, and have been making small modifications to the headphone hook and other forms of cable management. But my MO is more "stuff everything in a big bundle out of view" rather than to really neatly tidy up like you've done smile
Posted By: newer player Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/12/18 11:36 PM
Thanks for bringing us into your world Gombessa!
Posted By: QuinGold Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/13/18 01:14 AM
Originally Posted by Gombessa

Lol, that laptop resting on a high stand sitting on a plush cushion was a temporary solution that eventually became permanent because I got too lazy to move it. The top of the piano is big enough where I might just put the laptop on top of it, which would completely hide the cables. I might try that tonight.


I bought a little "hospital table" on wheels for the laptop by my piano. Works well as it's "split" so one side can tilt to hold the laptop, while the other can hold my pens.

It looks something like this one on Amazon but mine is all black and doesn't have the lip all around, only on the front.
https://smile.amazon.com/Medical-Tiltable-One-touch-Adjustment-Hospital/dp/B07771DX66/
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/13/18 01:20 AM
JoBert, thank you for sharing the additional pictures and write-up of your setup improvements - you have a very tidy home! wink

James
x
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/13/18 01:24 AM
Originally Posted by PianoGuyStuart
James - Quick question on the headphone front.

1/ So, the CA98 and NV10 sound identical over headphones?


Yes.

Originally Posted by PianoGuyStuart
2/ What is the amplification capacity on the two Kawais? I currently have a Yamaha YDP163 and while that powers Audio Technica MX50 headphones quite nicely, it does a poor job at driving Sennheiser HD650 headphones. With more power I am guessing that the HD650s might be a good alternative. The MX50s are 38ohms, and the HD650s are 300 ohms. Would the CA98 and the NV10 be able to drive them effectively? ie what is the capacity on both?


I will need to check this point. For reference, may I ask if you know the headphone 'amplification capacity' of your Yamaha YDP-163?

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: Hub. Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/13/18 06:33 AM
Jobert, your setup looks great, must feel great to play in such setup.
Posted By: mabraman Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/13/18 08:47 AM
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by PianoGuyStuart
James - Quick question on the headphone front.

1/ So, the CA98 and NV10 sound identical over headphones?


Yes.

Originally Posted by PianoGuyStuart
2/ What is the amplification capacity on the two Kawais? I currently have a Yamaha YDP163 and while that powers Audio Technica MX50 headphones quite nicely, it does a poor job at driving Sennheiser HD650 headphones. With more power I am guessing that the HD650s might be a good alternative. The MX50s are 38ohms, and the HD650s are 300 ohms. Would the CA98 and the NV10 be able to drive them effectively? ie what is the capacity on both?


I will need to check this point. For reference, may I ask if you know the headphone 'amplification capacity' of your Yamaha YDP-163?

Kind regards,
James
x


It seems that CA97 could drive those headphones well enough, so one would think that a new and better amp will do, too.
https://rickardnilsson.se/kawai-ca97-first-impressions/

As far as I know, most Kawais have two impedance modes (high or low volume, actually, though it relates to that).


Posted By: Dave Horne Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/13/18 10:32 AM
I test drove the NV10 a few days ago and brought my Sennheiser HD598 along, plenty of volume.
Posted By: winnyec Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/13/18 12:40 PM
They are 50Ω, right? Has anyone tried with larger-impedance cans? Maybe the famous 300Ω HD600 or H650, or the newer 150Ω HD660, or a pair of the 250Ω Beyer range?

James,
Do you happen to have such amplification data (I cannot find among the technical specifications), like max output power and voltage under varying load impedance? And once we are at it: SNR and THD of the DAC/amplification section? If it is such a proud point of the NV10, would it not make sense to make the piano capable of being an external sound card thourgh USB? Maybe so that sound does not need to be fed through line in, but also still in its digital form? (I think everything that is needed is basically already there.)
Posted By: akc42 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/13/18 01:57 PM
Originally Posted by winnyec
They are 50Ω, right? Has anyone tried with larger-impedance cans? Maybe the famous 300Ω HD600 or H650, or the newer 150Ω HD660, or a pair of the 250Ω Beyer range?


Did you read the link referenced by "mabraman" a few posts back. That is a blog by a member here with a CA97 (probably exactly the same amplifier as the Novus 10) who used Sennhieser HD650 which are high impedance phones. Worked perfectly
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/13/18 08:41 PM
Guys, if you get this thread locked by discussing politics, I'll come to your front yard and play a Williams Allegro at full volume for a whole week! Stay away from that topic!
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/13/18 08:42 PM
So my question is: if cost is not an issue, would you guys ( Gombresser, JoBert, Mabraman) upgrade from a CS11 to the Novis NV10? I have only had the CS11 about 9 months. (And the trade in value will be pretty low. Maybe $3000 if I am lucky. That means the NV10 will put me out about another $9,000 plus.) But regardless of that, is it a better piano for an intermediate player? It seems that the better action will be better to learn with. However the action of the CS11 is really good. I might not even notice the difference. Also, is the sound better without the soundboard? (With or without headphones?)
Posted By: Piano World Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/13/18 08:43 PM
You get one warning, knock off the politics or find yourself with a long timeout, or worse.
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/13/18 08:48 PM
Thanks, Frank.
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/13/18 08:58 PM
Tom, I fear that I cannot give you a definitive answer. I have no experience with the CS11. People here in the forum said that it sounds even better than the CA97 because of the different cabinet and the different speaker placement. So speaker wise, an upgrade probably doesn't make sense.
It also already has a very nice cabinet (which was a factor for me when I upgraded from the CA97), so that's another item where an upgrade does not make sense.

Which leaves the new pianist mode sound engine and, of course, the action.

With both of these, you will notice a difference, even as an intermediate player. Yes, to me the new sound is improved, and yes the action definitely feels different (I imagine "better"). But if this is worth the upgrade price to you, that's a question that only you can answer - by trying the nv10 yourself.
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/13/18 09:11 PM
Thanks, JoBert. I actually upgraded from the CA97 to the CS11 for the cabinet. And I do think the cabinet makes a difference in the overall playing experience. So I am satisfied with the upgrade, as I certainly didn't expect the NV10 to come out so soon. I should spend more time on this forum. Anyway, I am older and retired, and this is now my hobby, so a little more $$ will not impact my decision. I will be playing on it soon as the dealer here said they are in the warehouse and he will have his floor model next week.

I am looking forward to seeing you on YouTube playing the NV10.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/13/18 09:59 PM
Originally Posted by TomLC
So my question is: if cost is not an issue, would you guys ( Gombresser, JoBert, Mabraman) upgrade from a CS11 to the Novis NV10? I have only had the CS11 about 9 months. (And the trade in value will be pretty low. Maybe $3000 if I am lucky. That means the NV10 will put me out about another $9,000 plus.) But regardless of that, is it a better piano for an intermediate player? It seems that the better action will be better to learn with. However the action of the CS11 is really good. I might not even notice the difference. Also, is the sound better without the soundboard? (With or without headphones?)


Well, if cost is NO object, I would upgrade in a heartbeat. After all, I upgraded from an MP11 (which has Grand Feel 1 action compared to your Grand Feel 2, but they are exceptionally similar actions) to the NV-10, pretty much solely for the action. I don't use the built-in speakers and I don't use the built-in sounds very much.

But the action alone was worth it for me. It's really what I wanted in a digital piano--a real acoustic grand action. For me, it's absolutely worth it.

As to the native sound, the Pianist mode is better, it's more complex and richer, but it's a subtle difference compared to the Sound Mode you already have in your CS11. And I can't speak to the sound board because I haven't really played a CS11 much.
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/13/18 10:10 PM
Gombessa, If the action is that much different, and better, I will follow your lead.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/13/18 11:04 PM
Originally Posted by TomLC
Gombessa, If the action is that much different, and better, I will follow your lead.


The action absolutely feels different. I don't think any pianist will have trouble telling the Millennium III apart from the Grand Feel 2 in a blind test.

But is the extra cost worth it for you? I do hesitate to say it'll be better for practice or will make you a better pianist. Maybe it will, but I'm not qualified to say. And the Grand Feel was the first digital action I used that let me seamlessly transition from digital to acoustic grand without changing technique or dynamics (so IMO the Kawai wooden key digital actions are simply great).

But having played acoustic actions regularly, I just knew what I wanted, and the Novus fit the bill for me. I'm not using it with the impression that it'll make me better, I just know that I like it better.
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/14/18 12:57 AM
Understood. I may not even like it. We'll see when I finally get to try it. I have played a Yamaha Avant Grand and I liked it a lot. Not the sound as much as a CA97 or a CS11 though. If it was updated, I would look at that also.
Posted By: computerpro3 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/14/18 04:06 AM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
[quote=TomLC]I do hesitate to say it'll be better for practice or will make you a better pianist...the Grand Feel was the first digital action I used that let me seamlessly transition from digital to acoustic grand without changing technique or dynamics (so IMO the Kawai wooden key digital actions are simply great).



I have gone through an interesting transition on this. I used to be a huge piano snob, blaming the piano on my inability to play well. "Oh, this action is not regulated properly," or "This digital piano just doesn't repeat the same way that an acoustic grand does." That kind of thing.

I own a Kawai CA51. When I bought it, I thought it was the best action in my price range, but I really didn't like the sound. I bought it anyway due to the action (I already own an acoustic grand as well). At first, I felt I could not play certain things on it and blamed the instrument, but eventually after hearing my friends play better than I could on it, I realized the problem was me and not the piano.

Fast forward a few years and due to a variety of circumstances, I went from practicing daily on Steinways to having this humble CA51 be my main instrument, with occasional practice on my lowly Chinese Hallet and Davis acoustic grand.

I feel in that time, I have grown significantly as a pianist and from a technique standpoint - all while using the CA51. Once I stopped blaming the piano, I got a lot better....probably not a coincidence! And my progress directly translates over to acoustic instruments. I have to believe, the Kawai wooden actions are good enough for 99% of pianists. Maybe 99.5%.

Right now, in all of my repertoire, I can honestly say there is only one passage that I can more reliably play on my acoustic grand at full tempo. It's the passage below from Brahms 2.

[Linked Image]

I feel that when I am really pushing the tempo, the Kawai action is too light to really keep up. And even in this case, I am pretty sure that with more finger independence in my left hand, I can overcome that and play it equally well on the CA51 and my acoustic. I am purchasing the Novus NV10 (provided a decent price) basically because I want to and for this .05% circumstance; not because I expect it to make me a better pianist.

Just my perspective, but I think a lot of us on these forums tend to get way too hung up on thinking our pianos limit our skill. I see the same thing when I instruct drivers for high performance racing schools; novice, intermediate, and even advanced level students always tend to think their cars are why they are not fast drivers, not realizing that a Formula 1 driver in a Honda Civic would be faster than them in a Ferrari.
Posted By: 8 Octaves Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/14/18 07:09 AM
Originally Posted by computerpro3
I feel in that time, I have grown significantly as a pianist and from a technique standpoint - all while using the CA51. Once I stopped blaming the piano, I got a lot better....probably not a coincidence! And my progress directly translates over to acoustic instruments. I have to believe, the Kawai wooden actions are good enough for 99% of pianists. Maybe 99.5%.

Just my perspective, but I think a lot of us on these forums tend to get way too hung up on thinking our pianos limit our skill. I see the same thing when I instruct drivers for high performance racing schools; novice, intermediate, and even advanced level students always tend to think their cars are why they are not fast drivers, not realizing that a Formula 1 driver in a Honda Civic would be faster than them in a Ferrari.


+1.

I am in complete agreement with this post and believe there is a huge culture of believing things will make us better when they don't. All I need is a better DP, or better phone, or better car, or better whatever. Things never make us better, and certainly the best action in the world hybrid or otherwise will not. I applaud Kawai for making improvements over time, which is necessary, but it also suck consumers into a needless ever upgrade cycle that does not really do anything for their skills except make them obsessed over specs.

I had a long discussion over DP actions with my very accomplished classical piano teacher. She had a Yamaha with GH action for night time practice, which was replaced by a Kawai VPC1. When I asked her when I would out grow something like the GH action as I move beyond RCM 7 or 8 into concert repertoire territory, she said, "basically never." The lowly GH action is already sufficient for all levels of repertoire, and she demonstrated by playing an insanely great rendition of the Chopin Ballade in Gm. https://soundcloud.com/rjpianist/chopin-ballade-no-1-in-g-minor-op-23

Then she said of course the VPC1 action feels better, though she had to remove the let-off thing from the VPC1, which is an option, because she said it is basically annoying and unnecessary. It's actually annoying but necessary in an acoustic, so for DP makers to reproduce this annoying effect is very ironic. Anyway, in terms of VPC1, the action is even better, but was it necessary for my progress, absolutely not. The piano does not make the pianist.

In the end, you will like what you're used to. The OP says as much. Since he doesn't own a grand piano and hasn't spent even 1000 hours on a grand piano, how would he know that the action from a tiny 5' Kawai GL10 (according to this thread) is any good? The fact is, all actions are fine except the really light ones. I used to have a 5'3" grand before outgrowing it. The actions in these small pianos are too light. I don't understand why Kawai is using such a small piano's action for the NV10. I would have used the action of at least the GX-3 / GX-5, if the GX-7 was not possible. The GL10 action is too small. Very few actions from any 5' grand (so called micro-grands) are any good, including the Yamaha GB1/GC1, Steinway S, Kawai GL10/30, the whole lot. The only exception is the Boesendorfer 155 because it has the same action as the Boesendorfer 200. Sure if you had to buy a small grand piano that's one thing, but a DP does not need much more space beyond the action enclosure unlike a real piano where the piano maker needed to move the strike point away from the rim. Boesendorfer solved that problem though.

I hope the information that the NV10 action is adapted from GL10 is incorrect because that would be bad. The AG actions are adapted from Yamaha C3 / C5, which are much bigger pianos with longer heavier actions. I find it hard to believe Kawai will come out with a product years later and choose to adapt the action from their cheapest entry level piano. Very disappointed.
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/14/18 07:37 AM
8 Octaves, thank you for your post.

May I ask where it was stated that the NV10 keyboard action is adapted from the GL10?

I don't believe there has been any official statement from Kawai regarding this point.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: Kenny Cheng Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/14/18 07:51 AM
I believe all Kawai GX series and GL series use the same Millennium III Action. I think the only difference between GX and GL keyboards are key surfaces. And I think key lengths for GX and GL are the same no matter what piano size is (need confirm).

The smaller grand pianos have shorter strings and smaller soundboards (resulting in different sound characteristics such as dynamic ranges / velocity curves) and that's why you feel differently even if the action parts are the same.
Posted By: Osho Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/14/18 07:58 AM
Originally Posted by 8 Octaves
I hope the information that the NV10 action is adapted from GL10 is incorrect because that would be bad. The AG actions are adapted from Yamaha C3 / C5, which are much bigger pianos with longer heavier actions. I find it hard to believe Kawai will come out with a product years later and choose to adapt the action from their cheapest entry level piano. Very disappointed.


Yamaha AG actions are based on Yamaha C1 as per this source.- the smallest 5' 3" baby grand in C series.

I don't believe Kawai has said anything about which of Their GL or GX series piano NV10's action is based on. Kawai advertised that all their piano use 'extended length keys' - including the smallest GL-10. There does not seem to be authoritative information out there regarding the key length and pivot length for different grand pianos within Kawai's GL or GX series pianos.

Osho
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/14/18 08:43 AM
Originally Posted by Kenny Cheng
I think key lengths for GX and GL are the same no matter what piano size is (need confirm).


This is not correct. The key length typically increases with the length of the piano.

However, I'm afraid I am not aware of any (publicly available) Kawai materials that list the respective key lengths of each grand piano model.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/14/18 09:28 AM
I agree with computerpro3 and 8 Octaves in so far, that a better instrument does not make one a better musician. That expectation is there, nonetheless, at least subconsciously. I've had this twice now during the last 2+ years: First upgrading from the Yamaha P115 to the CA97 (a substantial leap regarding the action), and now from the CA97 to the NV10 (still a leap, but not as substantial as the first one). Each time I knew of course that just getting the new instrument would not make me a better musician. Actually, this time around I even told myself so repeatedly before the NV10 arrived, to keep expectations down. But still, subconsciously, there's this feeling when you sit down at the new "better" instrument, that you somehow have now morphed into a Maestro. smile Only to then sheepishly realize that, well, no, you are still playing the same repertoire as before (with mostly the same mistakes!), and you did not suddenly learn the full set of Beethoven sonatas and you still don't play any Mozart piano concertos. grin

But, and that's an important but, the better instrument still makes quite a difference, in two factors that are quite important to me:

The first factor is enjoyment and satisfaction. I enjoyed playing the CA97 with its soundboard and GFII action so much more than playing the P115 (usually with headphones, as the speaker sound is very bad). It was simply an incredible feeling, having this new instrument under my fingers, and that enjoyment stayed with me the whole two years. But still, now again with the NV10, there's again another increment in this enjoyment, for various reasons (the even better action being one of them).
And if the enjoyment grows, then, in my opinion, also the musicianship grows. So in a sense, I am a slightly (very slightly) better musician now, than I was before, or at least the road to becoming one is now a bit smoother.

The second factor is the purely technical. Each time I got an instrument with a better action, I definitely did notice an improvement in certain areas. I don't remember the details, but when going from the P115 to the CA97, I did have some passages that had always given me problems, that I could now play much more easily. And the same thing happened again now, with the switch to the NV10. I've already mentioned that I felt that fast runs and ornaments feel easier on the NV10. But for a concrete example, take Mozart's Fantasia in C minor, K. 475. I had played this piece many years ago (probably partially only, I don't remember exactly) and had recently, only a few weeks ago, started to work on it again, still with my CA97. I was very unsatisfied with the results. In the starting Adagio, when the Alberti bass starts in measure 6, with the melody notes "dotted" above that background by the right hand in a delicate "p", I could not manage to play that to my satisfaction (although I didn't practice it seriously either). Somehow the bass always drowned out my melody, and I had to play that melody quite indelicately at mf to have it stand out from the bass. With the NV10, I immediately managed to play that much better, on my first try. Suddenly I could keep the bass at a nice low background drone with the p melody above. That was definitely a function of the new instrument. I'm not sure if it was the new action alone, or the new pianist mode, or the different speaker system, or a combination of those, but the effect was definitely there.
So yes, one can certainly manage to learn most repertoire even on a "lesser" instrument (with a Kaway GFII or even a Yamaha GH action), but it just takes more effort to do so. Yes, I could probably have learned to play those measures of the Fantasia properly even on my CA97, but learning this would have required a lot of extra practice. With the NV10, it got better by a good increment all by itself, so I can now spend this extra practice time on other issues (and there are quite a few for me in that piece wink).

And that last item brings me back to the enjoyment factor: If I have to practice less to get the same achievement, or if I can achieve more with the same practice effort, then this brings me more enjoyment at the instrument. I'm a hobby pianist who almost exclusively plays on his own instrument, at home. I don't do gigs or recitals or whatever, where I can encounter all kinds of different pianos where it would be an advantage if I could adapt quickly to them (and it therefore might be a good idea to not have too good an instrument as my practice instrument, so that if I encounter a bad instrument somewhere, it's not so much of a shock). I want to maximize my enjoyment when playing at home, and getting easier and faster results with the same practice effort is a big factor for that.

So I'm not asking "when will I outgrow the instrument I currently have, and where does it hinder me?", because for my CA97, the answer to that would be "I will never outgrow it, and it doesn't hinder me, it's me who needs to learn to work with the instrument".

Instead, I'm asking "will the new instrument increase my enjoyment when playing the piano?" and both times I switched pianos in the last years, the answer to that was an resounding "yes".

BTW, just for the fun of it, let's see how that would transfer to the world of acoustic pianos. Because I have noticed that my three pianos, P115, CA97 and NV10, have a progression both in price and "quality" that you can find correspondingly in the acoustic world - if you multiply the prices by 10. smile

The P115 was a decent entry-level digital at 600€, the CA97 a high quality digital at 3,000€ and the NV10 a first tier digital at 9,000€. Take this times ten and you get: A decent entry-level acoustic upright for 6,000€, a high quality acoustic grand for 30,000€ and a first tier acoustic grand for 90,000€ (talking new instruments, not used). All three of these instruments would be fine instruments in their class, and the argument that you could learn 95% of the repertoire even on the 6,000€ upright would probably also be true. But still, many pianists (even hobby pianists, but professionals even more so) that have the necessary money and living conditions upgrade to that 30,000€ grand at some point. And some, with even more disposable income, even go for that 90,000€ first tier grand. And I would not be surprised if they do this for similar reasons as I had for my upgrades in the digital world, i.e. mostly for the higher enjoyment that they can get out of the more expensive instruments (because of the way they look, feel, sound, respond, etc.).

So my advice would be: Always go for the best instrument you can afford, to maximize your enjoyment. But on the other hand, if you can not afford a certain "better" instrument that you are longing for, don't allow this to affect your enjoyment either. Remember that even with the instrument that you do have, you can find enjoyment, make fine music, and become a good musician.
Posted By: Francis Martin Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/14/18 09:57 AM
@ 8 Octaves,

With respect, but your claim and statement, quote [...] "The only exception is the Boesendorfer 155 because it has the same action as the Boesendorfer 200." [...] is wrong!

It is true that there is still a brochure in print and download / PDF file in circulation, where on page 28 "Model 155 Mignon" is described that this model has the same key length which is used for the larger models 170-200.

This description is wrong.

On the basis of this description, which I assume that you refer exactly to this, I've had some phone calls with Bösendorfer about a year ago and asked why in that mentioned brochure and in addition on their website in the description of the models 170 and 185 is not (!) mentioned that these both models are equipped with the key length of the model 200? I went on to explain that with the statement in the brochure as well as on the website, the next larger models 170 and 185 would have a smaller (!) key length than the smallest BÖSENDORFER 155 model. That would be very unusual, say pure nonsense. Furthermore, I asked if this is more likely to be a "printing error", and the model 155 probably only incorporas the key length of the next larger model, the model 170.

After some confusion with my interlocutor and some consultation of this topic within the house in Vienna, it became true that the model 155 does not have the key length of the model 200, but "only" houses that of the model 170. Likewise, the models 170 and 185 do not have the key length of the model 200!
The web page was corrected accordingly. The statements on the website of Bösendorfer regarding this topic are correct now for about a year.
Posted By: Bambers Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/14/18 11:33 AM
Originally Posted by 8 Octaves
The GL10 action is too small. Very few actions from any 5' grand (so called micro-grands) are any good, including the Yamaha GB1/GC1, Steinway S, Kawai GL10/30, the whole lot. The only exception is the Boesendorfer 155 because it has the same action as the Boesendorfer 200. Sure if you had to buy a small grand piano that's one thing, but a DP does not need much more space beyond the action enclosure unlike a real piano where the piano maker needed to move the strike point away from the rim. Boesendorfer solved that problem though.


That the action keybed is GL10/30 based is speculation from people here based on marketing shots of said GL actions and similarities such as the key surfaces as well as the convienient existance of ATX versions of those two pianos, not 'information' per se.

I don't think bosendorfer particularly 'solved' any problem either. It's simply a design choice, you can have a longer keybed in a small grand if you want but you get shorter bass strings for any particular piano length as a consequenence, kawai have been making the same design choice with their smaller pianos in recent years hence the marketing blurb about longer keys.

As has been noted with tape measures further upthread, the key length on the novus is longer than the AGs
Posted By: winnyec Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/14/18 11:37 AM
I am clearly blind. Thanks.

Still I'd be interested in actual measurements. And would love to be able to use any good DAC being fed with digital signal, esp. as good as the one advertised in NV10.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/14/18 01:48 PM
Originally Posted by 8 Octaves



The actions in these small pianos are too light. I don't understand why Kawai is using such a small piano's action for the NV10.


Huh. Maybe there is a personal perception issue here. But I played the NV10 against s number of new GLs, including the GL10 and GL30, as well as several 6-7ft GX Blaks and 6-7 ft SKs. IMO the actions never never heavier going up in size, and in fact they always seemed lighter to me. Same with Yamaha playing the C3 and C7, and of the pianos I've tried the 7ft and 9 ft Bosendorfers felt the lightest of the bunch.

I don't recall if you've had a chance to try the Novus, but if you're are worried that the action will be too light, I would definitely suggest giving it a try. IMO it's not at all among the lightest of acoustic grand actions I've tried (closer to the opposite actually).
Posted By: toddy Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/14/18 02:20 PM
the actions never never heavier going up in size, and in fact they always seemed lighter to me

I agree with Gombessa. This is my experience, too. It stands to reason if you agree that quality and design get better as the size of the piano increases. The higher up the range, the lighter, is a general rule. The better the components and the design, the lighter and more regular the touch can be set. Although, against that practical factor is the physical one which is that a larger piano, producing more volume, will need more energy, force (weight) to achieve those volumes. But this may be offset by gains in the efficiency of the mechanism.

Whatever the reason, the heaviest, stodgiest actions are on cheap (smaller) pianos and the lighter, more responsive, on the more expensive (and larger) ones.
Posted By: Kenny Cheng Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/14/18 02:33 PM
Originally Posted by toddy
the actions never never heavier going up in size, and in fact they always seemed lighter to me

I agree with Gombessa. This is my experience, too. It stands to reason if you agree that quality and design get better as the size of the piano increases. The higher up the range, the lighter, is a general rule. The better the components and the design, the lighter and more regular the touch can be set. Although, against that practical factor is the physical one which is that a larger piano, producing more volume, will need more energy, force (weight) to achieve those volumes. But this may be offset by gains in the efficiency of the mechanism.

Whatever the reason, the heaviest, stodgiest actions are on cheap (smaller) pianos and the lighter, more responsive, on the more expensive (and larger) ones.


Exactly, the larger piano of the same series normally easier to play soft but might need more force to play forte.

It depends on how you define “havey”.

In DP, you should be able to set the velocity curve to your preference.
Posted By: MuddyFox Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/14/18 02:40 PM
Originally Posted by JoBert


So my advice would be: Always go for the best instrument you can afford, to maximize your enjoyment. But on the other hand, if you can not afford a certain "better" instrument that you are longing for, don't allow this to affect your enjoyment either. Remember that even with the instrument that you do have, you can find enjoyment, make fine music, and become a good musician.


I'd just like to +1 this sentiment... I spent several years struggling learning on a crappy guitar, being convinced from the outside that it's all I need and once I get better, I can get a better instrument.

Truth be told, I only got better at guitar after I bought a much better instrument than the one I started on. The ease of playing it just made all the difference, especially with motivation factor. What was once drudgery was suddenly enjoyment, even though my skill level was exactly the same. Not that I ended up being anything more than a hack, but I enjoyed the road travelled a whole lot more.
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/14/18 03:45 PM
Thanks guys, I get the point. The piano by it self won't make me "better". At my age and level I will NEVER be able to play the passage from Brahms 2. Nor do I want to. I like playing "Stardust", "Moon River", etc. But does that mean I will not enjoy playing on a piano with a better action? If I lived alone and wouldn't bother everyone listening to me practice progressions, or the same four bars over and over, I would purchase a six foot grand. However, that isn't going to happen. So I want the best "piano" I can buy that will fit in my study and I can play with headphones. The CS11 is a fine instrument, no doubt. But if the NV10 or an AG will provide a better experience, why not get it?
Posted By: 8 Octaves Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/14/18 08:09 PM
Originally Posted by Kawai James
8 Octaves, thank you for your post.

May I ask where it was stated that the NV10 keyboard action is adapted from the GL10?

I don't believe there has been any official statement from Kawai regarding this point.

Kind regards,
James
x


Hi James,

Right, it was stated a couple of times in this thread by posters, which is why I said I hope the info is wrong. The poster said "with good authority" for what it's worth. Yes, I'm skeptical because someone else said the AG is based on the C1 action, which is also false. The source is some piano sales website. Anyone playing a C1 then an N3 will know those are completely different actions, so different they might as well come from different companies. It is very wrong to think there is such a thing as a grand piano action. There certainly isn't such a thing as one Kawai grand piano action as the RX3 and GX-3 and SK3 have actions that feels completely different and we're not even talking about vastly different sizes of Kawai. Too often the discussions on this forum assume a grand piano is one thing when it's hundreds of completely different things.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/14/18 08:15 PM
Originally Posted by 8 Octaves


Right, it was stated a couple of times in this thread by posters, which is why I said I hope the info is wrong. The poster said "with good authority" for what it's worth. .


Hopefully not the same post that claimed the NV10 is actually made by building a full GL10 and then sawing the back end off, and then covering the back with cardboard after installing an ES110 into it for the tone generator wink
Posted By: 8 Octaves Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/14/18 08:15 PM
Originally Posted by Francis Martin
After some confusion with my interlocutor and some consultation of this topic within the house in Vienna, it became true that the model 155 does not have the key length of the model 200, but "only" houses that of the model 170. Likewise, the models 170 and 185 do not have the key length of the model 200! The web page was corrected accordingly. The statements on the website of Bösendorfer regarding this topic are correct now for about a year.


Thanks for this update. When I played the 155 last, it did feet larger than a typical Steinway S, which I assume was this key length described in their marketing materials. I guess having the action of the 170 is ok, but exaggerating that it is the same as the 200, well, shame on them.
Posted By: 8 Octaves Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/14/18 08:17 PM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Hopefully not the same post that claimed the NV10 is actually made by building a full GL10 and then sawing the back end off, and then covering the back with cardboard after installing an ES110 into it for the tone generator wink


Really? I missed that one. It's a great idea! laugh
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/14/18 08:19 PM
Originally Posted by 8 Octaves
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Hopefully not the same post that claimed the NV10 is actually made by building a full GL10 and then sawing the back end off, and then covering the back with cardboard after installing an ES110 into it for the tone generator wink


Really? I missed that one. It's a great idea! laugh


http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...nteresting-conversation.html#Post2703150

Quote
What I've heard over the holidays from reputable sources was even more interesting:

Kawai is actually making the Novus NV10 "hybrids" from real GL-10 models, by sawing off the back portion of the grand piano, and gluing a third leg to keep it upright.

...

I can't disclose my source, but let's just say he's from Korvatunturi and has been in the business of delivering musical instruments and all kinds of things even small children enjoy a LONG TIME.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/14/18 08:28 PM
Originally Posted by 8 Octaves
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Hopefully not the same post that claimed the NV10 is actually made by building a full GL10 and then sawing the back end off, and then covering the back with cardboard after installing an ES110 into it for the tone generator wink


Really? I missed that one. It's a great idea! laugh


Wait! You’re telling me the Novus is not a sawed-off GL10?
Posted By: 8 Octaves Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/14/18 08:31 PM
Originally Posted by Kenny Cheng
I believe all Kawai GX series and GL series use the same Millennium III Action. I think the only difference between GX and GL keyboards are key surfaces. And I think key lengths for GX and GL are the same no matter what piano size is (need confirm).

The smaller grand pianos have shorter strings and smaller soundboards (resulting in different sound characteristics such as dynamic ranges / velocity curves) and that's why you feel differently even if the action parts are the same.


No, none of this can be true. This is simply not consistent with how pianos of different sizes are designed or made regardless of the manufacturer. Kawai must follow the laws of physics like everyone else. It's absurd to think a 9-ft concert grand would share the same action as a 5-ft micro grand.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/14/18 08:42 PM
It is very well known that Kawai does not follow the laws of physics like everyone else!
Posted By: Frédéric L Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/14/18 08:54 PM
Originally Posted by Pete14
It is very well known that Kawai does not follow the laws of physics like everyone else!


It is true that 100 J of energy applyed to a key can’t produce more than 100 J of sound (in fact far less, because of a low efficiency)... excepted with electronic devices smile
Posted By: Francis Martin Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/14/18 09:11 PM
With regard to the parts of the action and keyboard used in the NV10, last October I found the following report in the "JMT Web News" (Japan Music Trade). It is from Sep. 07, 2017, and the last paragraph reads:

[...] "Kawai newly designed the keyboard for NV10 based on Ultra-responsive Action II built into Kawai acoustic grand piano in the same length, basic structure and parts of GX-1 grand piano.
According to Kawai spokesman, main markets for NV10 are expected to be music colleges as well as discerned amateurs." [...]

Whether the spokesman also made the statement about the "parts from the GX-1" in the lines above "main markets for NV10 are"?
One can certainly find out more about the report mailing to the editors of JMT.

@ KAWAI James,
you see, this topic keeps coming up again and again. It’s not the first time.
And that's good! Because it is obviously of greater interest.
Would be great, if we could finally get clarity and more transparency from the official side. Better, it would come from KAWAI as of others.
I think KAWAI does not have to hide at all!

Below, the link to the complete (but not long) publication:
http://www.musictrades.co.jp/english/detail

[Edit]
Sorry, the link above is about their news starting from Nov. 06, 2017 to present.
Though, have a look to the news from Jan. 05 2018 03:04 PM:

"Yamaha Opens Factories in Indonesia and India".

Have a special focus on the third paragraph:
[...] "Yamaha Musical Products Asia mainly intensifies production capability of digital pianos to be able to supply to world markets. The addition of a new factory will allow Yamaha to realign overall production lines at the existing 5 plants in Indonesia. It starts operation in this August." [...]

What's going to be built there?!


Now, here we are with the right link to the JMT News for the NV10:
http://www.musictrades.co.jp/english/detail/?param=8696
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/14/18 11:36 PM
My new NV10 will be delivered tomorrow! Yes I had to write a big check. Hope this is my last piano. (I told my wife that when I bought the CS11.)
Posted By: Grandman Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/15/18 01:43 AM
That was quick, did you buy without trying?
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/15/18 06:54 AM
Originally Posted by TomLC
My new NV10 will be delivered tomorrow! Yes I had to write a big check. Hope this is my last piano. (I told my wife that when I bought the CS11.)

Congratulations! I wish you a lot of fun with it!

Would be great if you would post here about your experience, once you've got the piano.
Posted By: PianoGuyStuart Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/15/18 11:49 AM
Think I might pop into Rose Morris when I get a chance and play the CA98 with some HD650 headphones, as its supposedly the same sound (though I still don't know if the NV10 has more actual amplifying power over headphones?)

The article linked to earlier gave the indication that the CA98 had plenty enough power headphone wise for HD650s. But hearing yourself is believing! Underwhelmed by them on the YDP163, but that may be down to it not having enough power over the headphones.

Doubt RM will have the NV10. I seem to recall them saying that it would go on their website immediately when it arrives, and its not on their at the moment.

Anyone found an NV10 in a showroom in London that can be played?
Posted By: funkycornwall Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/15/18 12:01 PM
Yes I'm visiting London for a few days in mid March so I contacted Rose Morris about the NV-10 and they said they hoped to have it at the end of March. I'd also like to try it out so very interested if you can find one in London. Bonners may have it but that's Eastbourne or Reigate not London.

You'd think the capital city would have one to test out somewhere
Posted By: kiwibd Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/15/18 12:12 PM
I just had a chance to try the Novus NV10. Long story short: I still very much prefer the touch of a Yamaha N2 (even without TRS).

First of all a bit of background about myself: I am not a professional but I graduated with a Bachelor's Degree in Music, majoring in piano. I used to spend 3-5 hours a day in the practice room with a grand piano in the university during my 3 years of study and I have played on quite a lot of grand pianos. I mainly play classical pieces (mainly Chopin, Liszt, Schubert, Mozart)

Before testing it today in JustMusic Berlin I was practicing on an acoustic grand for an hour. Afterwards I played on both Avand Grand N2 and Kawai NV10.

The NV10 to me has a sensitive action and good sound (playing with headphone), very realistic pedals. However, the touch of it lacks the depth or "stiffness" i need when I play a classic piece. Once you put your hand on it, your fingers almost go directly straight to the bottom of the key. It might be "easier" to play but this makes it (at least for me) very difficult to control the touch I want for the music. Sometimes when I want bring out different textures in a piece and create different timbres, I need that amount of key resistance to create such subtleness. I find it difficult to do it when the key is too loose and it goes straight to the bottom too easily. (could be an issue resulted by my technique) I always play with my arm on the piano. Those who only use finger technique to play the piano may find the Kawai NV10 easier to play.

To me the Yamaha N2 has a touch which suits me better. It has the resisitance which I need to create the difference. I wouldn't say it feels exactly the same as a grand piano. But it's by far the most realistic touch I've played on a digital (from my own experience). I can easily create different textures and tone colors on it. The sound isn't amazing. But to me, the TOUCH is the most important thing when I practice, as it's the thing which allows me to create the subtleness in my performance. For a better sound, I believe I can use a VST (like the Garritan CFX).

With the headphones plugged in, I wasn't impressed by the sound of NV10 either. I believe neither Yamaha or Kawai's sample can compare to a dedicated music sample library like Garritan CFX.

This is just my opinion. After all, it all depends on personal preference smile

Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/15/18 12:48 PM
kiwibd, it's interesting to hear those different impressions. It just goes to show that there is no such think as the grand piano action. Acoustic actions are just as varied (if not more so) as digital actions.

It would be interesting to hear if that acoustic grand that you played just before going to JustMusic was a Yamaha? Then it would probably not be surprising that the N2 felt more "correct" to you than the NV10.

Personally, I have much less experience than you playing acoustic grands (essentially none), so when I tested the NV10, to get a base line I also tested the Kawai GL30 and GL50 pianos that Thomann had in the shop, which have more or less the same action as the NV10. And as I wrote in my initial post, I felt that the resistance (the "pressure point" you need to overcome) of the NV10's action was stronger than those of the GL30 and GL50 (back then I speculated that those have maybe been in the show room for a longer time and have been worn out, or smoothed out a bit). So if the NV10 action felt to you like it lacked depth, then I would guess that those two GL30 and GL50 pianos would have felt even more lacking, in that regard.
Posted By: bSharp(C)yclist Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/15/18 01:21 PM
I think we get used to the action we play with. If forced, and we had to go from NV10 to N2, or the other way around, I'm sure all of us here would get used to it and learn to play just fine on it.

I played on a 170K Bösendorfer once with the music school. I can't say I liked it. The action felt all wobbly, no stiffness. But that just goes to show you that I don't know anything. There is probably a reason for it being wobbly. If I had the opportunity to play on it everyday, I'm sure I could get used to it, and grow to like it.
Posted By: kiwibd Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/15/18 01:41 PM
JoBert and BSharpI agree with you that there’s no “single” type of piano action. Every grand piano is different! And I could be biased as I very often played on a Yamaha grand piano when I was in college. I’ve also played occasionally the Bechstein at my teacher’s home and the Steinway D in our college’s concert hall, some Bösendorfers and some Kawais too.

Before testing the piano I was playing on an old Kawai grand with a new action installed. I bet it’s very different from the new Kawai action tho. And to be honest I’ve never liked Kawai’s acoustic pianos, neither the SK. They’re wonderful instruments but I still prefer a yamaha/Steinway. Just like digital pianos, it all comes to personal preferences !
Posted By: Bambers Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/15/18 02:19 PM
Bonners have a demo model in both their stores according to their vids, but yes, not london.

Originally Posted by 8 Octaves


No, none of this can be true. This is simply not consistent with how pianos of different sizes are designed or made regardless of the manufacturer. Kawai must follow the laws of physics like everyone else. It's absurd to think a 9-ft concert grand would share the same action as a 5-ft micro grand.


No, it is true without violating any physics becuase the action and keybed are somewhat seperate things. Look online for spare action parts. Are there a multitude of whippens etc for every length of yamaha and kawai pianos? Do Renner and WNG make 10s of slightly different actions to fit different lengths of piano? Nope, not at all, that would not only make everything an impractical mess for repairs or refreshing your piano line up but also add a huge amount of unnecessary manufacturing costs.

Instead you have a single action that is designed to work when the key shoves the whippen up by X mm, all you then need is the keybed to produce Xmm movement at the capstan when the front is depressed by the desired key dip (10ish mm normally). This of course just means that the only thing that needs to be the same is the ratio of lengths either side of the pivot.

All you have on a longer piano, where the action has to be further in in order to hit the right strike point is longer keys operating the otherwise same action. And as I mentioned previously, as a design choice, for any given length of piano you can sacrifice some string speaking length in order to move the strike point further in and thus be able to use longer keys. You can actually see this is if you have quick browse of google images for the bosendorfer 155, there is a noticable length of non speaking string at the front of the bass strings that isn't present in the 200 where the bridge is wedged about as close to the front of the piano as it can be. On a 9ft most manufacturers are actually trying to keep the key length as short as possible to avoid excessive flex (hence also the double stacks of key buttons)

Obviously that doesn't mean that manufacturers don't put a considerable amount more effort into regulating the action in the piano they're selling you for £100,000 opposed to the one you're getting for £10,000 so it's quite possible to get a different feel from the same action even for the same key length. If you buy a SK kawai will send you one of their master technicians (to some countries anyway) a little while after your purchase to tweak it up to your liking.
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/15/18 03:01 PM
Originally Posted by Bambers
No, it is true without violating any physics becuase the action and keybed are somewhat seperate things.

I think that's what it boils down to: In the digital world, we've come to associate the term "action" with the whole mechanical construct, including the keys (or key sticks) and even the key top material. That makes sense, because for most digital actions, if you remove the keys, there's not much left (only a counter weight or, at worst, a spring, maybe some lever, and a few sensors).
It is my impression that in the acoustic world, this is not necessarily so and the keybed is indeed not always understood as part of the action. That's why Kawai claims that all their grand pianos are using the same Millennium III action, when there are obviously key sticks of different lengths in different piano models. In the digital world, that would be the Millennium III-S, Millennium III-M, Millennium III-L, Millennium III-XL and Millennium III-C ("C" for "Concert", obviously wink).
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/15/18 03:31 PM
Actually, yes. They are still rare in LA/Orange County. A dealer who has a close relationship with Kawai already received three. Two pre-sold, and one left which I grabbed. At my level of play, my opinion of the touch and action is probably not relevant. If JoBert and the others here like it, I know I will. I don't need fast keys, just the ability to control minor changes in dynamics. It will be different, so I will have to adapt to it. As I mentioned before, I really like the AG N1 and N2. And this will likely feel close to those. I passed on them because they are so dated and the NV10 is the cutting edge right now.

I was reading the manual, and sort of unrelated, but I am excited to try using bluetooth to play albums in iTunes on the NV10 sound system. Imagine, Keith Jarrett playing the Koln Concert in my study!
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/15/18 03:44 PM
Congrats Tom!! I'm sure you'll enjoy the NV10 and I hope you update us with your impressions once you get it.

I take it you traded the CS11 in at the dealer?
Posted By: Grandman Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/15/18 03:53 PM
Congratulations! Look forward to hearing your impressions and post pics and a recording if you can. Preferably from the external speakers. Enjoy!
Posted By: bSharp(C)yclist Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/15/18 04:07 PM
Congrats, Tom. That's the dealer I visited on Saturday. The owner is a cool guy. Enjoy your new piano!
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/15/18 04:35 PM
bSharp, the one in West LA? I think his prices are probably better than you know who in Orange County. I was impressed with his directness. No messing around. "I have one left, it is here, if you want it this is the best price you will find. I can deliver it this week, or how about tomorrow?"
But he is a kick! Speaks four or five languages. Yes, Gombessa, I traded in the CS11 at quite a loss. But who knew as soon as I bought it only six months or so after it was introduced, Kawai upgrades the CA97 (Which I had just traded in). Now the CS11 will be upgraded shortly. So it is not worth much now. Maybe I could have sold it on Craig's list. But the hassle is not worth it. Especially since you need to hire movers every time you move it. Even into the garage. Grandman, I need to do a recording for Willie Myette. (JazzEdge) So If I'm happy with it, I will post it here.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/15/18 04:47 PM
After having the NV-10 for a full week now, I've compiled a short list of wishes, most of which are just minor nits, but I thought I would note them here. Perhaps Kawai James can evaluate and pass on some comments to the development team if warranted.

1. I want to defeat the speaker cutout with headphone jack connected. I know why it's there, but I prefer to not repeatedly plug-in/unplug the headphones just to get the built-in speakers to work (plus, there's nothing on the NV10 that holds the speaker cable in place so it'll just drop 3ft to the floor when you unplug it). Ideally, I'd be able to set a few Favorites that would let me change between headphone and speaker, and between built-in sounds and VST, without messing with additional knobs or cables: one setting that turns off the speakers, turns off local control, and turns up line-in audio (VST with headphones), one that turns off speakers, turns on local control and turns down line-in audio (SK-EX with headphones), and the same settings with speakers turned on so I can play either the native sound or VST through speakers, at the tap of an on-screen button.

2. Touchscreen coating and feel. I'm not sure if the touchsceen is glass or plastic (feels kind of like plastic to me), but it also doesn't seem to have an oleophobic coating applied, so my finger always swipes inconsistently and stuttery across the surface.

3. Touchscreen responsiveness. A lof of swipes don't seem to take very well. Often times I get no response, or it doesn't swipe far enough and bounces back when I'm trying to change a setting.

4. Top edge of touchscreen doesn't have a bezel. This one is interesting. Where the fallboard meets the cheekblock, the glass of the touchscreen is entirely exposed. There's a foam pad there to cushion against the fallboard, but it's still a bare edge. Not an issue during normal use, but it seems like you'd have to pay close attention not to chip or crack it when removing or installing the fallboard during maintenance.

5. Another way to tell if the NV-10 is on. Yes, you can see the LED backlight through the screen even if the screen is off. But I've come home to find my young child has played the piano and closed the fallboard with it still on, and the display is now hidden so you can't tell the piano is on. I've been thinking about inserting a small USB LED or always-lit thumb drive into the USB slot just to have an ad hoc power LED indicator, but it wouldn't hurt to have a real LED one next to the power button or something.

6.The headphone hook seems to be made for small/cheap headphones. This (as well as the CA/CS series) are expensive instruments, and you would expect that people would use expensive (or at least generally larger, more padded) headphones with them. But the hook is tiny and has such little clearance that some padded headphones (like my Sennheiser HD598s) don't fit unless you really compress the foam on the headband. Also, the underside of the piano is unfinished so it'll damage the headband as you rub it against the bottom to get it onto the hook (so I put some electrical tape on the understide to smooth out the rough surface). I also took a dremel and sawed off a bit of the hook so the headphones slide on and off more easily, but I think this is something Kawai should simply address with a better-designed hook attachment with more clearance.

7. As described earlier, there seems to be some variation in the positioning of the key frame within the body. Mine is more forward than JoBert's so I can see the bare wood behind the black and white keys when I press them down, but interestingly enough, it's not as far forward as on some acoustic grands I play, which have an even wider gap between the end of the black keys and the fallboard. Not much of an ask here other than for tighter tolerance, or just an official word as to whether this is within spec.

Again, these are all mostly nits. I still jump out of bed early in the morning just so I have some extra time to play on the NV10. The action and response of the keys are just so much of a joy, and I just love it.
Posted By: bSharp(C)yclist Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/15/18 04:47 PM
Yup, the guy that makes his own pianos laugh I opted not to buy, because I knew you wanted it - haha. You got the best price I've heard of so far here in the area. Congrats! They are in limited supply in this area.
Posted By: Francis Martin Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/15/18 05:10 PM
@ Gombessa,
fantastic job!!

KAWAI says:
"Because we believe that excellence is in the details. Even the smallest ones!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ysY_dbXlPo
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/15/18 05:27 PM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
5. Another way to tell if the NV-10 is on. Yes, you can see the LED backlight through the screen even if the screen is off. But I've come home to find my young child has played the piano and closed the fallboard with it still on, and the display is now hidden so you can't tell the piano is on. I've been thinking about inserting a small USB LED or always-lit thumb drive into the USB slot just to have an ad hoc power LED indicator, but it wouldn't hurt to have a real LED one next to the power button or something.

Ha, that's one of the things I like about the NV10 - and one of the little nit picks I didn't like about the CA97. The red LED that was positioned rather unmotivated on the right hand side of the otherwise smooth wooden front. Maybe a position at the connector box, near the on/off switch as you suggest would be OK though. Although I don't really need it. I have mine set to auto-power off after 60min, so even if I forget it, it will soon switch off automatically. And since that's not something that can be changed with a firmware update, no one can take away my LED free piano from me anyway! grin
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/15/18 05:48 PM
Originally Posted by JoBert

Ha, that's one of the things I like about the NV10 - and one of the little nit picks I didn't like about the CA97.


Well I think it's clear Kawai agrees with you wink

I haven't been using the auto-off because there are cases when we use the piano as a bluetooth speaker, and it's nice to be able to stream to it without it turning off with a timer (hmm, does the auto-off timer actually poll against active BT?), and also it would be great to start a stream without having to walk over to the piano every time and lift the lid just to check if it's on). Totally ancillary use case for sure, but I think a small unobtrusive LED on the control panel wouldn't be too distracting (it'd be invisible as you sit at the bench actually), and it's also easy to cover up if you really don't like it.

First world problems, eh?
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/15/18 07:25 PM
Well, I cancelled the NV10 due to the price. Dealer may renegotiate. But the trade in is a real problem. Now, I can get the N2 with the trade for $1000 less than the NV. What to do? I am going down to play the N2 today.
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/15/18 08:07 PM


Happy to report: Dealer came back with a very good compromise and will be delivering the piano this afternoon. Quite pleased with him. Looking forward to getting the NV10
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/15/18 08:11 PM
LOL, Tom, that's quite a roller coaster! crazy

I really hope now, that you will like the NV10 - fingers crossed!
Posted By: Fan Yu Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/15/18 08:44 PM
Can someone share the final price?
Posted By: jfl Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/15/18 09:36 PM
Originally Posted by kiwibd
I just had a chance to try the Novus NV10. Long story short: I still very much prefer the touch of a Yamaha N2 (even without TRS).

This is an interesting comment for me. My nearest Kawai dealer (3+ hours away) just got an NV10 in but hasn't yet assembled it. I'm planning to take the trip to play it in the near future, but he isn't a Yamaha dealer and there isn't a Yamaha dealer that's very close to him.

This may just be my own defect, but I find it very hard to assess two different pianos unless I can go back and forth and try a lot of different music (and settings on DPs) on each repeatedly, one after the other. I tend to fall in love with the one I'm playing at the time, unless there's some glaring problem like the damper volume problem on the N2, I find that I adapt to whatever high end piano I'm playing pretty quickly. (I'm a late intermediate / early advanced level classical pianist), Of course if the action or sound is artificial, as it is on most non-hybrid DPs, I can tell.

So in addition to trying it personally, I'm really looking forward to more impartial AG/Novus comparisons just to get other people's perspective. Compared to the Avantgrands, there's very little on the web for impartial NV10 reviews and also classical music performances (even given that you're not actually hearing the DP speaker system). Hopefully that will change soon.
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/16/18 01:22 AM
The piano was delivered around 1:00. Nail biter as they maneuvered it though the hallway and into my "study" that used to be my son's bedroom. The design without two legs in the back made for a precarious balancing act. But the boys handled it in a professional manner. Happy that it was on the first floor. So it is in place and I just now took a brake playing on it since 2:00. I need to read the manual to see how to save my settings to startup. First impressions, the action is very good and requires better technique compared to the CS11. Everything is more sensitive. Touch, pedals. The sound is incredible. Even though headphones. T
Posted By: Osho Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/17/18 12:53 AM
Congratulations Tom!!

It looks like everyone is busy playing NV10s last day or so! - not much chatter today smile.

Osho
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/17/18 04:57 AM
Originally Posted by Osho


It looks like everyone is busy playing NV10s last day or so! - not much chatter today smile.


I won't deny this is true laugh
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/17/18 03:25 PM
Or trying to figure out the panel. I am sure it will be easy once I am used to it. Well, today I plan to READ the manual. That may help a bit. smile
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/17/18 04:12 PM
Originally Posted by TomLC
Or trying to figure out the panel. I am sure it will be easy once I am used to it. Well, today I plan to READ the manual. That may help a bit. smile


There are a lot of settings for sure. I think part of the confusion stems from having nested save functions that that at times have effect outside of their menus.

Perhaps a good v2.0 for the new UI would be to include tooltips or help popups next to each setting.
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/17/18 04:19 PM
Thanks

All I want to do right now is set the Wall EQ , as the back is to the wall. Set the speaker volume from normal to low. And the headphones to open. I was setting them to wide, but now I think that may not be as natural as leaving that setting at normal. Then have it stay there like it did on the CS11 when I restart. Like I said I haven't even read the manual. So I am sure it won't be difficult.
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/17/18 04:58 PM
To change these settings, you need the "Sound Settings" menu: Tap the icon with the three lines in the top right corner, then on "Sound Settings". Then change the settings you desire.

Now comes the tricky part: To actually make these settings survive a power off/on cycle, you need to store them in a favorite: When you are done adjusting the settings, tap the < icon in the top left to go back one menu, then tap "Store to Favorite" and proceed as directed. After storing the favorite, you are back in the same menu again.

The next step is to make sure that this favorite is loaded upon startup: Leave the menu by tapping the X at the bottom. Then tap "Favorite" in the lower right corner. The favorite that you just stored should be in the list. In your case it is probably the only one in the list. It is actually important that the favorite is the first because of the next step (actually it is important that the favorite is the very first that was stored, ever - see my next post for more details):

While on the Favorite screen, again tap the menu icon with the three lines in the top right corner. Then set "Startup with Favorite" to ON.

That's it (finally!).

Whenever the piano boots up, it will from now on load the first favorite in the list (which should be the one that you just stored). Of course it will load all settings from that favorite, which for example includes the selected instrument and the virtual technician settings of that instrument that you had active when you stored the favorite. But it will also include the settings from the sound settings menu, as desired. And (and this is important): If you switch away from the favorite screen after startup, while this means that the instrument/VT-settings from the loaded favorite are no longer applied (but instead the settings of whatever instrument or other favorite you select), the sound settings menu values that were loaded from that first favorite upon startup remain active - just as desired.
Posted By: newer player Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/17/18 05:06 PM
Japanese menus can be infuriating.

Shockingly, the menus for "JDM only products" can be more confusing than those for "export products."
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/17/18 05:23 PM
JoBert, That helps. thanks. I will try it as soon as Keith Jarret and Charlie Haden finish playing their Jasmine Album on it. Fantastic stereo system.
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/17/18 05:40 PM
It's not only confusing menus, but there are also a few bugs to work around.

So I should add: According to my experiments, the procedure I described in my previous post only works if the favorite that is stored is the very first favorite in the whole list.

Where it started to get buggy for me was, when I created more favorites, and then changed the ordering so that a new favorite was in the first slot (the one that is loaded during startup). The sound settings of this other favorite were then not loaded correctly during startup. And even worse, if I then changed the ordering again, to put my initial first favorite back into the first slot, then even this favorite's settings did no longer load correctly.

So my advice is to proceed like this:

If you ever stored a favorite before, even if only for testing, your first step should be to do a factory reset. Then select pianist mode. Then make the settings in the "sound settings" menu as described, store a favorite and set it to "startup with favorite".

So the role of this startup favorite is essentially only to set the sound settings to a different startup default than they normally have. The nice thing is, that this new default will then persist even if after startup you switch to a different favorite or leave the favorite screen altogether.

The advanced version would be to also set the desired startup pianist rendering mode, resonances depth, ambience, metronome, maybe even VT settings, etc., before storing this first favorite. The important thing is, that with the current software version, the favorite must be the very first favorite that was ever stored (hence this need for a factory reset before doing this), or otherwise the sound settings from the favorite will not properly define the new "default" for startup. I have no idea why this is so, but I doubt that it is by design.

You can later create more favorites of course, but you should never use the reorder function to put a different favorite in first place, or you will have to start over with a factory reset.
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/17/18 08:06 PM
Originally Posted by Osho
It looks like everyone is busy playing NV10s last day or so! - not much chatter today smile.

OK, to add a bit of chatter, let me share my newest mini-mod of the NV10, this time of the volume knob:

What I liked better with the CA97 than the NV10 was, that the CA97's volume slider has visible position markers. I usually play via speakers, but still sometimes via headphones, and the two modes require different volume settings. With the CA97, I could simply memorize the slider positions for the two volume settings for speakers and headphones, helped by the markers. The NV10's almost maker-free volume knob does not make this so easy.

Actually, I got a lucky break in so far, that the correct setting for my headphones is with the knob at the 12-o'clock position (i.e. 50% volume) which is relatively easy to see via the small white dot on the knob. But for playing with speakers, the correct-for-me volume settings is somewhere at the 2-o'clock-ish position. Which is kind of fiddly to get right without bending down very low under the piano - and I'm kind of picky with such small details. When I play, I want the volume always at the same setting, as close as possible.

So... I made another one of my zip-tie "mods":

I put a small black zip-tie around the volume knob (of course with the end cut off). The knob is metal and has small grooves around the circumference, for a better grip when turning it, so the zip-tie stays in the same position without sliding around, as it "anchors" into these grooves (or rather the inner edge of the little "buckle" of the zip-tie does this), even without having to pull the tie extra tight. I then pushed the zip-tie all the way back, almost flush with the panel, where, by virtue of being black, it is almost invisible unless you really examine the knob closely. I can actually slide off the zip-tie quite easily and slide it on again at a slightly different rotation. I used this to put the zip-tie into a position where the little buckle is about at the 12-o'clock position if the volume knob has the correct volume position. Then I cut out a tiny little rectangle from the sticky part of a post-it note, of the same size as the little zip-tie buckle, and attached that little "sticker" into the same 12-o'clock position, like you can see in the first picture below.

[Linked Image]

Note, that the volume knob position in that picture is not the correct position for playing with speakers, instead it's the headphones position where by coincidence the little white dot on the knob itself also lines up with the 12-o'click position, i.e. with my little sticker. So that makes it even easier to find the headphones position.

However, I actually did attach the little post-it sticker to find the playing-with-speakers volume position more easily. And it now makes it easier, because I simply have to turn the knob to the position where the little zip-tie buckle completely obscures the little yellow sticker, as seen in the second picture:

[Linked Image]

That is quite easy to see even when seated at the piano and only bending down the head slightly, so it is now a quick adjustment to make. Plus as an additional advantage, since that's the usual position of the knob, you usually don't even see the little sticker.

You may (probably rightfully so) think that this is a stupid little thing, but for me, it's a nice little improvement. smile

BTW, for other NV10 owners: While doing all this I realized, that the panel with the sockets, the volume knob and the on/off switch was covered with one of those protective films, which is not easy to see, as, at least in my case, the film matched up so perfectly with the panel edges. That film is already removed in the above pictures.
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/17/18 08:32 PM
i am sort of wondering what headphones you use. I have the Sennheiser HD598's. and the Beyerdynamic DT990 PRO. 250 impedance. The 598's are loud, while the 990's are not. But if I am using the 990's I have to turn the piano volume down if not using headphones. With the 598's I have to turn it up. This is how I am picky. I have three sets of headphones and I am not happy with any of them on the piano. It seems that someone would make a set to high end DP specs. Like for the N2, CA98, or the
NV10. Any suggestions? BTW, I pulled off the film. It was there as you said.

Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/17/18 08:33 PM
I do pretty much everything by feel under there. I don't think I can see the control panel unless I really bend down pretty low.

My "mod" is to remember that the power button sits directly under G1 and the knob is under F1 smile
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/17/18 09:48 PM
Originally Posted by TomLC
i am sort of wondering what headphones you use. ... if I am using the 990's I have to turn the piano volume down if not using headphones. With the 598's I have to turn it up.

That makes sense. The 990s have higher impedance, so they need more power to drive them and you need to turn the volume down when going back to speakers. With the 598s you instead have to turn it up when going back to speakers, as they are easier to drive and thus require less volume from the piano.
It's the same for me: 50% volume with headphones and more with speakers. I have the 558s, which are essentially the same as the 598s, with the same drivers but a different grill on the outside of the cups and an additional piece of foam in the cups, behind the drivers (which you can remove to make the sound signature essentially the same as the 598s, which I did, although I'm not sure if it made a difference for me).
Posted By: Osho Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/18/18 01:53 AM
@Tom: There is a "Phones Volume" setting - that can be set to either Normal (default) or High. Look at Page 132, Chapter 9 of the manual.

Quote
The default setting for Phones Volume is ‘Normal’ in order to protect an individual’s ears from excessive volume
levels. The ‘High’ setting may be selected when using headphones with a high impedance, or in situations where it
is desirable to increase the maximum volume level of the headphones output.

990 being high impedance, High may be a better fit. Let us know what you think if yout ry it.

Osho
Posted By: Osho Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/18/18 01:58 AM
@JoBert: Thank you for sharing your explanation of how the favorites etc. work. This sounds way too complicated. Sort of like alpha software with zero 'real end user testing'. I expected better from Kawai - but on the plus side, it is fixable via software update. Let's hope Kawai improves this with firmware upgrades.

Osho
Posted By: mabraman Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/18/18 10:54 AM
Originally Posted by Osho
@JoBert: Thank you for sharing your explanation of how the favorites etc. work. This sounds way too complicated. Sort of like alpha software with zero 'real end user testing'. I expected better from Kawai - but on the plus side, it is fixable via software update. Let's hope Kawai improves this with firmware upgrades.

Osho


I agree on that too. It is a heck of procedure to set an user startup. The trick of Jobert seems very clever!! More clever than the GUI itself by the way.
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/18/18 03:49 PM
Today was the day when I finally couldn't resist any longer: I took the back panel off my NV10 to have a look at the action! cool

Below is a sample of the pictures I took, and a video I took while playing.

More pictures of the action can be found in the gallery here in the forum:
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/galleries/2711677/kawai-novus-nv10.html

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/18/18 03:54 PM
Thanks, I don't have the nerve to do that. Does it say where the action was manufactured? How about the assembly? Japan or Indonesia?
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/18/18 03:58 PM
Jobert, you're a beast!

Thanks for posting this, it's quite a treat. I guess the temptation is even stronger when your 400lb piano isn't pushed up against a wall, huh? smile

What's next? Replacing the speakers with larger cones? It looks like there is clearance!
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/18/18 04:22 PM
Originally Posted by TomLC
Does it say where the action was manufactured? How about the assembly? Japan or Indonesia?

The action has a sticker that says "Made in Japan", but that sticker is not visible from the back, but from the front, if you remove the fallboard. The 10cm speakers at the top have "Made in Malaysia" printed on them. I did not find any other origin or place of assembly indicators.

Originally Posted by Gombessa
What's next? Replacing the speakers with larger cones? It looks like there is clearance!

I'm not that crazy! I'm just looking, not touching! (Well, my fingers may have flicked a hammer or two... wink).
Posted By: Dave Horne Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/18/18 04:29 PM
I wonder how easy it is to remove the action for regulating.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/18/18 04:35 PM
JoBert,

I'm not sure if you can tell (especially since you need to be in two places at once), but if you still have it open, there's something I've wanted to check:

If you softly push a key down exactly to the resistance of the letoff, and then forcefully press the key to the bottom, do you consistently get a note played, on all/most keys?

My NV10 behaves exactly like my MP11 does, which is an "inconsistent" result. About one in ten keys will reliably play exactly from letoff, most won't, and some are "iffy."

The thing is, in CFX, those presses will actually register as key-down strikes if pressed hard enough (about mf-f force). But even in CFX no note will play. And on acoustic grands I definitely get more keys playable this way.

Can you check to see if the hammer actually flies (and hits the stop rail) when a key is pressed like this?
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/18/18 05:11 PM
Sorry Gombessa, already closed up again.

Dave, I think the action would be rather difficult to remove. The base plate of the action seems to be screwed down on the cabinet bottom board, in places where the screws are not easy to access. It may actually be easier to remove to top board to get access to the action (but that's just a guess).
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/18/18 05:19 PM
Originally Posted by JoBert
Sorry Gombessa, already closed up again.


No worries, probably best to ensure the action/electronics stay enclosed anyways smile

One request - can you perform the test just by pressing the key down to letoff, and from letoff to bottom? I'm interested in knowing if other NV10s behave like mine, or if they're more playable from letoff.
Posted By: mcoll Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/18/18 05:41 PM
Very nice video, JoBert!
And to think all those people were complaining about the look of the back, with screws and everything. Imagine trying to open a fully polished-ebony piano!
Posted By: mcoll Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/18/18 05:57 PM
Btw, thanks to JoBert's video, I discovered the following video in the suggestion list. Somebody was mentioning that they would like to hear what the piano actually sounded like through its speaker system.
Well here's a very nice recording comparing the sound of a Shigeru SK-EX recorded via a 3dio binaural microphone with the sound of the NV10 recorded through the same microphone and via the line out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CgcFCf2qRk
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/18/18 06:32 PM
I had never heard of the Piano Store before the Novus, but I have to say I'm really loving the videos they put out. They seem like they're having a lot of fun, and the content is actually great and they use some innovative setups that actually allow for a real comparison to be made.

It's amazing how close the digital's line-out sounds to the real SK-EX. There's something very noticeable in the harmonics of the acoustic though, that give it an undeniable "more than the sum of its parts" feeling of immersion. I think this is why I like non-dry samples such as the Garritan CFX so much. It may not be the cleanest/purest recording, but it absolutely does the best job of making you feel like you're sitting in front of an actual piano in an actual room/studio.
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/18/18 09:28 PM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
One request - can you perform the test just by pressing the key down to letoff, and from letoff to bottom? I'm interested in knowing if other NV10s behave like mine, or if they're more playable from letoff.

Depends on what exactly you mean. If I press the key until I start to actually feel the letoff notch, then I cannot trigger a tone even if I then forcefully press it down fully. If however I "learn" where the letoff is and press the key until it's just above that point (so I don't actually feel the letoff yet, but I would, if I pressed a hair's width further), then I can trigger a tone more or less reliably. At least under testing conditions. I'm not sure if my technique is good enough to use this during playing.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/18/18 09:39 PM
Thanks, both situations are exactly the same as on mine.

The interesting thing it's this is *precisely* how GF1 action on my MP11 behaves, it's actually uncanny how identically Kawai got that. The thing is, they changed that in GFII so that it can be triggered at let off more reliably.

And on various acoustics, I can trigger a note even when I feel the resistance of the letoff. So I wonder from an action regulation perspective if there is a "proper"or "preferred" behavior. That doesn't really impact my playing except for a very few notes and passages, it's more a point of curiosity for me.

Thanks again for trying.
Posted By: akc42 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/18/18 10:01 PM
On my CA67 I can press a key until I feel the let off stop and then press rapidly and I get a sound. But if I don't push (very) fast, I don't get a sound. This happens reliable across all keys ( tried 20 or so including black and white keys up and down the keyboard)
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/18/18 10:40 PM
Originally Posted by akc42
On my CA67 I can press a key until I feel the let off stop and then press rapidly and I get a sound. But if I don't push (very) fast, I don't get a sound. This happens reliable across all keys ( tried 20 or so including black and white keys up and down the keyboard)


I believe that's the intended behavior on the GFII action. On an acoustic, that letoff is the point where the hammer swings free from the rest of the action. If you can impart enough force on the key at this point, the hammer should be able to fly up and hit the string.
Posted By: Osho Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/18/18 10:49 PM
Originally Posted by mcoll
Well here's a very nice recording comparing the sound of a Shigeru SK-EX recorded via a 3dio binaural microphone with the sound of the NV10 recorded through the same microphone and via the line out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CgcFCf2qRk


This is a great comparison video.

A good way to do comparison: open the following three links in three tabs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CgcFCf2qRk&feature=youtu.be&t=98

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CgcFCf2qRk&feature=youtu.be&t=143

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CgcFCf2qRk&feature=youtu.be&t=190


Now, one can switch between the tabs and press Ctrl-R to load the videos from that location and do 'instant A/B/C comparison'

My brief thoughts:
  • Novus NV10 via speakers sounds very tinny and distant compared to real SK-EX. That is not too surprising though given SK-EX costs 10x more. Also, it may depend on the specific acoustics.
  • Line out sounds really good on NV10 - pretty close to the real SK-EX.One thing I noticed is that when there are multiple bass notes, NV10 line out sounds a bit 'muddled' vs. the real SK-EX.


Osho
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/19/18 04:27 AM
Originally Posted by JoBert
Today was the day when I finally couldn't resist any longer: I took the back panel off my NV10 to have a look at the action! cool


Very nice shots (and video!) of the action, thank you JoBert! wink

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/19/18 04:38 AM
Originally Posted by mcoll
Well here's a very nice recording comparing the sound of a Shigeru SK-EX recorded via a 3dio binaural microphone with the sound of the NV10 recorded through the same microphone and via the line out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CgcFCf2qRk


Hmm...I'm only listening using a pair of inexpensive earbuds, but I don't personally believe the recordings of the SK-EX or NV10 sound terribly good in this video.

The short clips where we see the DAW screenshot (at around 47 seconds) sound mono. The individual 30 second takes later sound better, but still rather dull. The Kawai Europe and Bonners videos were also recorded using Line Out, but sound much clearer and more vibrant to my ears.

Again, just my personal opinion, but I'm not sure how useful this kind of video is.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/19/18 05:12 AM
Kawai James. Is there a “white noise” as they say?
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/19/18 05:45 AM
Originally Posted by TomLC
Kawai James. Is there a “white noise” as they say?


In this video?
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/19/18 05:52 AM
Hello JoBert,

Originally Posted by JoBert
Where it started to get buggy for me was, when I created more favorites, and then changed the ordering so that a new favorite was in the first slot (the one that is loaded during startup). The sound settings of this other favorite were then not loaded correctly during startup. And even worse, if I then changed the ordering again, to put my initial first favorite back into the first slot, then even this favorite's settings did no longer load correctly.


I've just checked the Favorites function on a CA78 (software v1.0.2), and was able to create Favorites in both Pianist mode and Sound, enable the 'Startup with Favorites', function, and reorganise the Favorites around the screen (I only tried storing 4 different Favorites, so not multiple screens), and then turn off the power. When turning the power on again, the Favorite in the top-left position was always recalled successfully, regardless of which Favorite was stored first.

May I ask you to send me a PM detailing the steps taken to reproduce the behaviour you're experiencing (Favorite memory in top-left position not being selected automatically when 'Startup with Favorites' is enabled), please?

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/19/18 08:19 AM
Originally Posted by Kawai James
May I ask you to send me a PM detailing the steps taken to reproduce the behaviour you're experiencing (Favorite memory in top-left position not being selected automatically when 'Startup with Favorites' is enabled), please?

Sorry that I've been a bit unclear. Generally, sorting the favorites into a new order and having a different favorite as the "first" one, which is then auto-selected upon startup works for me too. I was only referring to the specific settings from the "sound settings" menu, which are also stored into the favorite, which however seem to be restored correctly only for the very first favorite (as I described). I'll send you a PM with the details - as well as I can remember them.
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/19/18 08:54 AM
Hello JoBert,

Originally Posted by JoBert
Generally, sorting the favorites into a new order and having a different favorite as the "first" one, which is then auto-selected upon startup works for me too.


Okay, that's good to know.

Originally Posted by JoBert
I was only referring to the specific settings from the "sound settings" menu, which are also stored into the favorite, which however seem to be restored correctly only for the very first favorite (as I described). I'll send you a PM with the details - as well as I can remember them.


Okay, I see.
I will wait for your PM.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Kenny Cheng Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/19/18 02:56 PM
Originally Posted by akc42
On my CA67 I can press a key until I feel the let off stop and then press rapidly and I get a sound. But if I don't push (very) fast, I don't get a sound. This happens reliable across all keys ( tried 20 or so including black and white keys up and down the keyboard)


This is also how my GX2 behaves. "playing off the jack" works in GX2.
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/19/18 04:18 PM
Originally Posted by Kenny Cheng
Originally Posted by akc42
On my CA67 I can press a key until I feel the let off stop and then press rapidly and I get a sound. But if I don't push (very) fast, I don't get a sound. This happens reliable across all keys ( tried 20 or so including black and white keys up and down the keyboard)


This is also how my GX2 behaves. "playing off the jack" works in GX2.


I've created a thread previously about why I think Kawai wooden action design is not perfect:
[Linked Image]

Basically there's a long wooden key and a hammer and it is supposed that, as on a real piano, you're able to throw the hammer freely without pressing the key all the way to the bottom. Well, not exactly! Look at the let-off notch: the grey rubber hook. It goes in the way of the hammer: the white plastic hook that's part of the hammer. Even if you tap the key with a force big enough to create a momentum in the hammer and throw it freely, the hammer hook will be slowed down by the escapement hook and thus the velocity of the hammer when touching the sensors will be lower than expected. I've tested that multiple times and I've confirmed it. It's difficult to play leggiero on RM3 and GF-actions due to hammer being slowed down by the escapement notch. If you press the keys all the way down, then you'll feel the escapement with your fingers and that's why it was created but I believe this design is wrong. It sacrificed dynamics for finger feel. The correct way of implementing that would have been to put the notch in the key way path, so that hammer travel is not affected. I'm wondering if it's possible to just remove all the rubber escapement notches from a GF-action since it doesn't contribute to anything besides finger feel. It doesn't facilitate repetition or anything else. Repetition is already facilitated by the triple sensors.
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/19/18 04:29 PM
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by TomLC
Kawai James. Is there a “white noise” as they say?


In this video?

Yes, they say there is a White Noise that will be corrected. I thought they meant in the NV10 sound.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/19/18 04:39 PM
Originally Posted by Kenny Cheng

This is also how my GX2 behaves. "playing off the jack" works in GX2.


Thanks, good to know!

Originally Posted by CyberGene

It's difficult to play leggiero on RM3 and GF-actions due to hammer being slowed down by the escapement notch. If you press the keys all the way down, then you'll feel the escapement with your fingers and that's why it was created but I believe this design is wrong. It sacrificed dynamics for finger feel. The correct way of implementing that would have been to put the notch in the key way path, so that hammer travel is not affected.

I'm wondering if it's possible to just remove all the rubber escapement notches from a GF-action since it doesn't contribute to anything besides finger feel. It doesn't facilitate repetition or anything else. Repetition is already facilitated by the triple sensors.


Interesting. Yes, theoretically it appears the letoff simulation is designed with the assumption that the hammer will move while "captured" to the key, and the GF/GF2 actually has free hammers. As an aside, I've always thought that it there's going to be a letoff simulation mechanism, it would be better to situate the middle sensor there so you have better idea of when the simulated hammer actually passes the jack.

Also, I'm 100% certain you can remove the rubber letoff mechanism from the action frame. I even recall reading very recently here that someone has done this on a VPC-1 she plays? The only thing to be aware of is that the letoff is the only part of the action that is lubricated, and it uses some kind of force/friction grease similar to that in camera lenses, so if you ever want to reinstall it, you may need to source the right grease.

Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/19/18 04:46 PM
Here's an interesting development:

After one week of play, I've noticed that the damper pedal now sits a tad lower than the other pedals:

[Linked Image]

The damper works fine, but there's about 1mm of vertical play in the pedal where you can lift it manually and it doesn't encounter any resistance, and the rod connecting the pedal can jiggle a bit (both up/down and front/back/left/right). Anyone else seeing this, or know if it's normal behavior?

It could have been like this from the beginning, but I would probably have noticed when I removed the protective plastic sleeves from the pedals a few days ago.
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/19/18 04:57 PM
You realize "anyone else" for the moment is JoBert, right? laugh Joke aside, this is worrying. Hopefully it was like this from the beginning and not spring compressed so much after just a week.

P.S. Ohh, wait! I just realized NV10 is using real dampers. This seems pretty normal to me then. There's no spring in the pedal, there's an internal damper resistance that acts as spring I guess. So it's OK if that's not entirely level with the other two pedals that are not linked to anything external.
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/19/18 06:27 PM
Originally Posted by CyberGene
You realize "anyone else" for the moment is JoBert, right? laugh Joke aside, this is worrying. Hopefully it was like this from the beginning and not spring compressed so much after just a week.

Actually, there's TomLC too. We are legion! We are ... three...

Originally Posted by CyberGene
P.S. Ohh, wait! I just realized NV10 is using real dampers. This seems pretty normal to me then. There's no spring in the pedal, there's an internal damper resistance that acts as spring I guess. So it's OK if that's not entirely level with the other two pedals that are not linked to anything external.

The pedals have springs nonetheless, but they are located at the end of the pedal rods, behind the middle panel where the pedal sensors are too (the small panel that you need to attach yourself, after assembling the main cabinet on top of the base unit, and after connecting the two electronic connectors).

Gombessa, now that you mentioned it, I had a look at my pedals and in my case, both the pedals on the sides are a bit lower than the middle pedal. That panel I mentioned above: Behind that you have access to two screws that look like they can be used to regulate how far the damper pedal moves. It's a bit difficult to explain. I'll see if I can post a few pictures when I have a moment.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/19/18 07:50 PM
Originally Posted by JoBert

Actually, there's TomLC too. We are legion! We are ... three...


I'm holding on to this one for a day I can use it (soon, hopefully):
[Linked Image]

Thanks CyberGene and JoBert for the information on the pedals. My unit came fully assembled from the shop (I bought the only one they had, which was the one I played on display). I do wish I could have seen the whole unboxing/assembly, but IMO it was good to get exactly the unit I played and liked (I figure this is more like buying an acoustic in that sense).

If you do have pictures of the pedal setup, that would be great. I might just want to take a look and see if there's something that can be adjusted, but again, the slight difference in height doesn't bother me unless there's something actually wrong/loose in there.
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/19/18 09:10 PM
Mine are tight and all the same height. Mine also came assembled from the store.
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/19/18 09:16 PM
Originally Posted by TomLC
Mine are tight and all the same height. Mine also came assembled from the store.

Yep, I forgot to mention that: Mine are tight too. No "play" in the pedals or rods.
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/19/18 10:15 PM
Ok, here are some pics of the pedal mechanism. This mechanism is behind the middle back panel. That's the smallest of the three panels, the one that is shown in the assembly instructions in the manual, which describes how you need to attach this panel after assembling the piano and connecting the two plugs. It's held by five screws that are easy to remove, but it's a bit tricky to then tease out the actual panel board without scratching anything. I managed though...

The first pic shows the main pedal unit. I'll try to explain what you can see in the picture, but please understand that I may not have the correct English terms for many of the mechanism parts.
The black box at the bottom with the grey metal across on top holds the three pedal sensors and their levers. As this is taken from the rear, the damper pedal [A] is on the left, the una-corda [C] on the right.
The mechanism above the grey metal is the lever that ultimately moves the damper weights when you press the damper pedal. The black metal box [1] on the right, with the grey/silver peg at the far right is the hinge (the peg is the hinge pivot). This holds the black wooden lever [2]. The wooden lever is braced with a sturdy spring against the top board of the whole box (the spring at the right of [3] with the red cord/felt twisted inside, presumably to avoid creaking/vibrations?). The light-brown wooden rod at the left of [3] goes through a hole into the main cabinet, and actually moves the damper weights when the lever is pressed upwards.
(You can also see a bit of one of the mentioned plugs on the left and the cable for the other plug on the right)

[Linked Image]

Before we take a closer look at the damper pedal mechanism, first a look into the pedal unit, a bit from above. Here you can see the three pedal sensor levers (the three grey metal levers inside of the white plastic rails). These levers have their hinge at the very back (i.e. at the very front of this picture, obscured by the black casing). They also have a spring that presses the lever down into rest position. As you can see, the lever in the middle and on the right (remember, this is backwards, so the middle is the sostenuto and the right is the una-corda) have much sturdier springs than the sustain pedal on the left. That's because the mechanism of these two pedals works differently than the sustain pedal: From the "bottom up", it works like this: When you press down the pedal at its front end, the back end of the pedal goes upwards (like a see-saw). This in turn pushes up the pedal rod. The upper end of the pedal rod (of these two pedals) is fixed to the free end of the sensor lever (via a hinge), so when the rod goes up, so does the sensor lever (against the tension of the mentioned sturdy spring). When you release the pedal, the spring pushes down the sensor lever, which pushes down the rod, which pushes down the back end of the pedal, so the front end of the pedal goes up.

[Linked Image]

As said, the mechanism of the damper pedal works differently, as it also has to move the damper weights. Again, the pedal, when pressed, pushes up the rod [1]. The end of the rod [3] is however not fixed to the sensor lever. Instead, the end of the rod is not fixed to anything. It simply pushes against the bottom of the black wooden lever [2] that I described in the first picture (that bottom is cushioned with a thick leather patch). When pushing up the wooden lever, it pushes against the also already mentioned spring [4] that sits between the wooden lever and the top board (the one with the red cord) and, when you release the pressure on the pedal, it is this spring that pushes down the lever (and in turn the rod, which in turn pushes down the back end of the pedal, so that the front end see-saws up). Another detail: The upper end of the wooden lever [2] is cushioned with a thick green felt patch, that in turn is stopped by an adjustable brass screw. This essentially regulates how far up you can press the damper pedal/mechanism.
So far I've only described how the damper pedal moves the wooden lever and thus the damper weights. Of course it also needs to activate the pedal sensor. In the picture, just below the upper end of the pedal rod (below the round brown leather patch) you can see the silver colored end of the sensor lever [5]. This sensor lever is not actually attached to the rod, but is simply pushed upwards (when the pedal is pressed) by the large washer (just above [1]) that is fixed to the rod.
What you cannot see in this picture is, that the end of the rod [3] is a nut that presumably can be adjusted to regulate the length of the pedal rod, without impacting the position of the washer that moves the sensor lever (although it would be tricky to get in there with a wrench). It stands to reason, that if the rod would be slightly longer (the nut screwed upwards), then the wooden lever [2] would press down the rod more (in rest position), which in turn should press down more on the pedal, which should see-saw the front pedal end upwards a bit more.

[Linked Image]

There's one more detail that I didn't describe yet that you could see in the previous picture but that can be seen better in this last picture:

The bright brown (orangeish in the picture) patch of leather [1] with the silver bracket screw (angle screw?). This screw regulates the lower rest position of the wooden lever and makes sure, that the lever does not rest on the silver metal top of the pedal unit itself (there's a small gap between the wooden lever and the metal top that you can't really see in the picture). In other words, in rest position, the wooden lever sits on the angle/bracket of the screw so that the spring cannot press it down further. The little piece of leather [1] is to avoid creaking, I would guess. At first I thought that you could turn this screw to regulate the rest position of the lever (by making the screw longer/shorter), but that turns out to be impossible, because the screw is too close to the metal top of the pedal unit, and therefore is restricted in its movement. So the rest position is essentially fixed by this bracket screw in its original length.

The only adjustable regulations I can possibly see are the little brass screw above the green felt patch, that regulates the top position of the wooden lever, and the mentioned nut (which I think can be adjusted, I'm not sure if that is actually possible, and even if it is, it would be very tricky to get a wrench in there) that could possibly regulate the length of the pedal rod by a tiny bit.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/19/18 10:49 PM
Originally Posted by TomLC
Mine are tight and all the same height. Mine also came assembled from the store.


Mine also came assembled from the factory, but they’ve gotten a bit discombobulated since.
I’ve not checked for height yet.
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/19/18 11:17 PM
Pete14, you also got a Novus? Wow, congrats! So many people with that great piano smile I’m almost ripe for purchasing a N1 but I’m sure Yamaha will update it to N1X soon and I’ll be sorry. And no Kawai in that price range frown And my research about my own DIY grand piano action controller is a rather mission impossible as it seems... Wondering if Kawai would bring a slightly lesser model but on the other hand what less than that? laugh It has the CA-engine so less than that would be bad, it doesn’t even have a soundboard so no downgrade on that side. Maybe they can remove the real dampers but how much money that would trim off? No happiness for me frown
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/19/18 11:26 PM
JoBert, you've (once again) gone above and beyond the call of duty. Thank you for such a detailed post and description, I really couldn't have hoped for more!

On examining the pedal rods (the three chrome rods visible in the front of the NV10 that go from the pedal box into the main body), I notice that the play in the sustain rod is at the top. The bottom is firmly fixed to the pedal, but the rod is more or less "free" at the very top; and lifting the rod by hand results in ~1-2mm of travel and an audible thunk as the rod contacts something in the main body. So I'm thinking there may be something in the body (a top limiter) that may be adjustable as well.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/19/18 11:30 PM
Originally Posted by Pete14

Mine also came assembled from the factory, but they’ve gotten a bit discombobulated since.
I’ve not checked for height yet.


Whoa, did I read that right? Congrats Pete! Let us know what you think about it!

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Wondering if Kawai would bring a slightly lesser model but on the other hand what less than that? laugh It has the CA-engine so less than that would be bad, it doesn’t even have a soundboard so no downgrade on that side. Maybe they can remove the real dampers but how much money that would trim off? No happiness for me frown


Yeah, it's easier to imagine upmarket versions rather than downmarket (how much can Kawai take away and how much less would that be? An N-VPC perhaps?). I'm certain Yamaha will update/replace the N1 and N2 this year, and that's going to make for a competitive space indeed.
Posted By: ando Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/20/18 12:07 AM
Originally Posted by JoBert


The only adjustable regulations I can possibly see are the little brass screw above the green felt patch, that regulates the top position of the wooden lever, and the mentioned nut (which I think can be adjusted, I'm not sure if that is actually possible, and even if it is, it would be very tricky to get a wrench in there) that could possibly regulate the length of the pedal rod by a tiny bit.

I am certain that I could turn that brass screw with no trouble. It has 4 side holes which allows you to turn it from many different angles (like most capstan screws). All you need is an implement of the right length and diameter - preferably with a slightly hooked end.
Posted By: Osho Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/20/18 12:07 AM
@Pete14: Congratulations!!! From all accounts, this seems like a great piano - I am sure you will enjoy it for years!

@JoBert: Thanks a lot for posting all the pictures and providing the details.

Originally Posted by Gombessa
Yeah, it's easier to imagine upmarket versions rather than downmarket (how much can Kawai take away and how much less would that be? An N-VPC perhaps?). I'm certain Yamaha will update/replace the N1 and N2 this year, and that's going to make for a competitive space indeed.

When Kawai originally announced NV10, they mentioned "the NV10, the very first model in the new NOVUS series" - so that implies there are other models in NOVUS series coming later on. I would really like at least three models:
  • NV10 - as it is!
  • NV20 - significantly beefier sound system - so the sound from speaker system sounds better than what I can hear in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CgcFCf2qRk
  • NV30 - a grand cabinet version. I am not interested in this, but there definitely is a market for this given N3, N3X, Roland GP609 etc.

I am sure Kawai James will quickly respond with the release dates and the prices of all these models smile.

Osho

Posted By: Pete14 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/20/18 12:20 AM
Guys, I apologize for any confusion, but I was talking about the pedals on my LX-17. smile
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/20/18 12:43 AM
Originally Posted by Pete14
Guys, I apologize for any confusion, but I was talking about the pedals on my LX-17. smile


Congrats on your LX-17 Pete!

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/20/18 12:48 AM
Thanks, James.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/20/18 01:25 AM
So, that was easy. Everything's fixed. The damper pedal is at the correct height, the rod has zero play, and there's no slack in the pedal anymore. Thanks to JoBert for providing such great pictures and descriptions - I basically looked at the mechanism for 5 minutes, watched it as I actuated the pedal, and figured out what needed to be done.

The way the tolerances line up, the pedal rod ([3] in JoBert's pictures) either has to be longer, or the beige leather pad under the wooden lever arm ([2]) needs to be thicker. I don't see how the lever itself could be dropped due to the tight positioning of the screwed hook-arm, or how anything could have loosened up during playing.

What I did should be fairly obvious from the pictures below:
Before:
[Linked Image]

In the above picture, I'm holding the pedal up where it should be (level with the other pedals), which causes the rod to drop a couple of mm below the leather pad. If I let the pedal fall naturally, the rod rises to contact the pad but it's just resting force, so the pedal and rod have high degrees of loose play.

After:
[Linked Image]

I took an aftermarket fiber/fabric adhesive furniture foot and stuck it to the leather pad. This pushes the rod down and forces the pedal up while at rest. Now with constant downward pressure against the rod, the pedal stays up, has no more play, and the rod also is "tensioned" against the damper mechanism and cannot move on its own.

The green arrow shows that when the rod is correctly pushed down, it loses contact with the gray pedal sensor (because the rod and the washer attached to it are now both lower). This isn't a big deal, as it seems most acoustics have 1-2mm of play before the damper pedal "catches" the damper. And you can also drop the half pedal height in VT to partially counter the effect. However, I wanted the mechanism to be tight, so I took a smaller/thinner furniture pad and fixed it to the washer just under the sensor (not visible in the picture) to take up the slack. Now there's no natural dead spot caused by "thickening" the leather pad and I can adjust the half pedal trigger point solely with VT.

Bonus - I could tell that there's not just one hex nut on the rod (at the visible capstan), there's another one just above the washer as well. It's indeed a bit too tight to get any standard wrench in there, but it's possible there are two points of adjustment if you go for further disassembly.
Posted By: terminaldegree Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/20/18 04:17 AM
Thanks for posting this!
It’s funny that, in the chase toward ultimate realism, it seems one ends up having to do more maintenance that mimics the acoustic piano ownership experience.
Posted By: Galuwen Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/20/18 05:47 AM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
So, that was easy. Everything's fixed. The damper pedal is at the correct height, the rod has zero play, and there's no slack in the pedal anymore. Thanks to JoBert for providing such great pictures and descriptions - I basically looked at the mechanism for 5 minutes, watched it as I actuated the pedal, and figured out what needed to be done.

The way the tolerances line up, the pedal rod ([3] in JoBert's pictures) either has to be longer, or the beige leather pad under the wooden lever arm ([2]) needs to be thicker. I don't see how the lever itself could be dropped due to the tight positioning of the screwed hook-arm, or how anything could have loosened up during playing.

What I did should be fairly obvious from the pictures below:
Before:
[Linked Image]

In the above picture, I'm holding the pedal up where it should be (level with the other pedals), which causes the rod to drop a couple of mm below the leather pad. If I let the pedal fall naturally, the rod rises to contact the pad but it's just resting force, so the pedal and rod have high degrees of loose play.

After:
[Linked Image]

I took an aftermarket fiber/fabric adhesive furniture foot and stuck it to the leather pad. This pushes the rod down and forces the pedal up while at rest. Now with constant downward pressure against the rod, the pedal stays up, has no more play, and the rod also is "tensioned" against the damper mechanism and cannot move on its own.

The green arrow shows that when the rod is correctly pushed down, it loses contact with the gray pedal sensor (because the rod and the washer attached to it are now both lower). This isn't a big deal, as it seems most acoustics have 1-2mm of play before the damper pedal "catches" the damper. And you can also drop the half pedal height in VT to partially counter the effect. However, I wanted the mechanism to be tight, so I took a smaller/thinner furniture pad and fixed it to the washer just under the sensor (not visible in the picture) to take up the slack. Now there's no natural dead spot caused by "thickening" the leather pad and I can adjust the half pedal trigger point solely with VT.

Bonus - I could tell that there's not just one hex nut on the rod (at the visible capstan), there's another one just above the washer as well. It's indeed a bit too tight to get any standard wrench in there, but it's possible there are two points of adjustment if you go for further disassembly.



I my God...I really about people that disassemble their new NV10 and help to fix factory problems by their own *shock*. Reminded me on the GF2 stories last Year.

Thanks for the great pictures and update on the ex factory quality of the new NOVUS. Helped a lot.

*pheeeeew*

Galuwen
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/20/18 07:07 AM
Gombessa, is it possible that the weird position was a result of intentional misalignment? I mean, there are real dampers and sensor. The sensor should start sending positive data the moment dampers start to lift off. I could imagine there’s some alignment between the two needed which due to the nature of the piano mechanics might have needed a slight pedal drop?
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/20/18 08:17 AM
Gombessa, I'm happy to hear that my pics helped you with your issue and that you have now sorted it out. The gap you found was exactly what I expected you would find (although I wasn't sure if you would want to go through the hassle of moving the piano away from the wall to get access). I've also thought about if it shouldn't be possible to pad that gap a bit (instead of adjusting the nut), but I had no good ideas. Your solution with the furniture foot pad is a genius idea and much simpler than trying to get in there with a wrench. Although I would make a note to have another look in a few weeks (or months) to see how it holds up to the wear and tear.

I think it was also a good idea to also pad the washer, to avoid a misalignment between the moment when the damper weights are lifted and when the sensor is engaged, just as Gene wrote:

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Gonbessa, is it possible that the weird position was a result of intentional misalignment? I mean, there are real dampers and sensor. The sensor should start sending positive data the moment dampers start to lift off. I could imagine there’s some alignment between the two needed which due to the nature of the piano mechanics might have needed a slight pedal drop?

If you look at Gombessa's first picture, you can see that the same gap exists both between the end of the rod and the leather pad (red arrow) and also between the metal washer (that is fixed to the rod) and the sensor lever (green arrow). So both functions of the pedal rod (to push against the leather pad to move the damper lever and to push the washer against the sensor lever) are actually aligned in exactly the way that you said: When the rod is moved upwards, it will engage both the leather pad (=damper weights) and the sensor lever at the same time. So there actually isn't any "misalignment".

Originally Posted by ando
I am certain that I could turn that brass screw with no trouble. It has 4 side holes which allows you to turn it from many different angles (like most capstan screws). All you need is an implement of the right length and diameter - preferably with a slightly hooked end.

Yes, that brass screw would be relatively easy to adjust. That's not the one I was referring to as "tricky to reach", though. I meant the nut at the end of the pedal rod (that nut is not actually visible in any of the above pics, as it is behind the sensor lever; in my third picture, the line from number [3] points to the top of the rod, the nut is just below that).

Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Thanks for posting this!
It’s funny that, in the chase toward ultimate realism, it seems one ends up having to do more maintenance that mimics the acoustic piano ownership experience.

Indeed. smile But if you think about it, the Novus is essentially an acoustic grand, where you have taken away the plate with the strings, and the sound board underneath, and then "sawed off" the now empty and useless rear part of the case. The whole rest of the mechanism, from pedals to hammers, is more or less the same as in an acoustic (or at least very similar). So to me it's not surprising, that with all those different moving parts made of wood, leather, metal, felt, plastic and whatnot, there may be some regulation required here and there. There certainly is with acoustic pianos.

But just in case there were any misunderstandings: So far I have not needed to "regulate" anything with my Novus. I've only opened it up and taken the pics and video, because I'm nosy and curious. smile
Posted By: PianoGuyStuart Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/20/18 12:26 PM
Interesting post on Kawais Facebook about the NV10 (if you happen to be in London, or can get there in the next few days):

Quote
We're excited to be showing the stunning new NOVUS NV10 Hybrid at Music & Drama Education Expo | London 22 & 23 February 2018 next week. Visit us on stand B9 to be one of the first to experience NOVUS, alongside a Shigeru Kawai SK-3L grand piano, K300 ATX2 Anytime X upright, the new CA98 digital piano with TwinDrive soundboard, and the affordable new KDP110.
Posted By: jtycho Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/20/18 12:49 PM
Here’s a slightly silly question but it’s relevant to me: is there enough room on top of the NV10 to pile sheet music or does the location of the speakers on top prevent that?
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/20/18 02:03 PM
Originally Posted by jtycho
Here’s a slightly silly question but it’s relevant to me: is there enough room on top of the NV10 to pile sheet music or does the location of the speakers on top prevent that?

I would say that there is enough space on the far left and far right for one stack of A4 sheet music each, plus some space behind the music rest for another pile or two. However, you do have to keep an eye on not obscuring the speakers, and I don't know how it would affect the sound if the speakers are sort of surrounded with towering piles of music books.
Personally, I like to keep my piano surface clear. smile
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/20/18 02:12 PM
There's a ton of room on top, to either side of the 4 top speakers. You can fit at the very least four full stacks of sheet music on top without covering the speakers or the music rest prop.
Posted By: jtycho Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/20/18 02:32 PM
Excellent thank you!
Posted By: R111 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/20/18 07:34 PM
Originally Posted by JoBert
so I thought it might be a good idea to open a new thread to post actual hands on experiences with the actual released product, and as a place to discuss those impressions.


Are there any recent videos or other recordings of the non-piano sounds on the NV10?
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/20/18 08:38 PM
I am seriously impressed with you guys. (JoBert also). I would have been calling Kawai support to send a tech.
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/20/18 08:48 PM
Originally Posted by R111
Originally Posted by JoBert
so I thought it might be a good idea to open a new thread to post actual hands on experiences with the actual released product, and as a place to discuss those impressions.


Are there any recent videos or other recordings of the non-piano sounds on the NV10?

The non piano sounds are exactly the same as those in the CA98/CA78, and before that the CA97/CA67. Probably also other models (maybe CA58, CA48, CA17? Maybe CA95, CA65? maybe others?).
So any recordings you can find for those models are equally applicable to the NV10.
Posted By: HwyStar Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/20/18 10:39 PM
In regards to a Grand version of the NV series pianos: I think I remember reading a few years ago that Yamaha holds the patent to a speaker cabinet configured like a piano cabinet? That is maybe why Kawai has not created an N3 version? Maybe why they only use a sound board? I could be wrong about this but I remember seeing some plans that looked like patent paper work.
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/20/18 10:57 PM
Sorry, I am trying to learn to at post a picture on a forum.

[Linked Image]


This is my new NV10.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/20/18 11:29 PM
Originally Posted by HwyStar
In regards to a Grand version of the NV series pianos: I think I remember reading a few years ago that Yamaha holds the patent to a speaker cabinet configured like a piano cabinet? That is maybe why Kawai has not created an N3 version? Maybe why they only use a sound board? I could be wrong about this but I remember seeing some plans that looked like patent paper work.


Well, if Yamaha does have some kind of patent on it, then there are a lot of ways around it, (see the Roland GP607 and GP609, Kawai CP1, etc. It's a pretty common form factor for high end digital pianos.

Originally Posted by TomLC
Sorry, I am trying to learn to at post a picture on a forum.


Hey Tom, you need to change the tag inside the brackets from ing to img (short for image) for it to work (and I'm not sure why your piano is bolted to the ceiling laugh

[Linked Image]
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/20/18 11:41 PM
(and I'm not sure why your piano is bolted to the ceiling laugh

Oh, no wonder I can't learn to play it. I don't know either. And if you right click on the image, it is back on the floor. Oh, well, Thanks.
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/20/18 11:43 PM
TomLC, thanks for sharing the pic - congrats on your new piano!

I could see the image by clicking the link. However, in order to correctly embed the image into the post, please change the "ing" tags to "img".

The image is embedded correctly, but it seems the orientation is not. Some browsers will rotate the image correctly, others will not. It seems that when embedded, the rotation flag is ignored (hence the image is shown upside down), but when shown in a separate window (e.g. right click and select 'View Image' etc.) the rotation flag is respected (and the image is shown the right way up).

Regardless of the orientation, that's a lovely shot Tom - congrats again!

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: bSharp(C)yclist Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/21/18 12:42 AM
Tom, when I tried that piano it was right side up. What did you do to it ;0
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/21/18 12:59 AM
Well, I just found out the hard way that on the NV10 one cannot record to the internal memory and then save it (convert to an MP3 or a WAV file) to a USB drive. On all of my previous models: CN35, CA97, CS11, that is how I recorded. That way I could keep recording until I was satisfied. Not a problem now that I know. But right now I am frustrated. It's hard to understand why that function was removed. If i missed something, please straighten me out.
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/21/18 01:02 AM
Thanks James. I am glad you are on the forum.

Tom
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/21/18 02:08 AM
Hello Tom,

Originally Posted by TomLC
Well, I just found out the hard way that on the NV10 one cannot record to the internal memory and then save it (convert to an MP3 or a WAV file) to a USB drive. On all of my previous models: CN35, CA97, CS11, that is how I recorded. That way I could keep recording until I was satisfied. Not a problem now that I know. But right now I am frustrated. It's hard to understand why that function was removed. If i missed something, please straighten me out.


I'm afraid the NV10 and CA98/CA78 do not include the 'Convert to Audio' feature.

However, if a song is recorded using the Internal recorder in Sound mode, it is possible to use Overdub function (via Recorder Playback in the Music screen) to achieve the same result.

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: Terry Michael Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/21/18 03:56 AM
Gosh- I love it. I have the CS10 and like it a lot. May I kindly ask what the distance is from back to front? TIA
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/21/18 09:53 AM
Originally Posted by TomLC
Well, I just found out the hard way that on the NV10 one cannot record to the internal memory and then save it (convert to an MP3 or a WAV file) to a USB drive. On all of my previous models: CN35, CA97, CS11, that is how I recorded. That way I could keep recording until I was satisfied. Not a problem now that I know. But right now I am frustrated. It's hard to understand why that function was removed. If i missed something, please straighten me out.

EDIT: I edited my description below to incorporate Kawai James' info about the overdub function.

There are still ways to make a recording, you just have to know how. And yes, unfortunately with the pianist mode it is a bit more complicated than it used to be with the CA97/67 and CS11/8 (although the sound mode is about the same as before).

(Note: These issues are not specific to the NV10, they are also shared by the CA98/78. I should also note that this applies to the software version 1.0.2. This may be changed in a future software update.)

First of all, the internal recorder works differently for pianist mode and sound mode:

In pianist mode, the internal recorder is relatively useless. It only allows three different records at a time, and it records internally in an unknown format (but judging from the specs that say "max ~10min per recording", my guess is that it records an audio format). Unfortunately, there is no way to later transfer one of these three recordings to a USB stick, which, in my eyes, makes the internal recorder in pianist mode relatively useless. The only way to get this recording "out" of the piano is to make the piano play it, and record the result via line-out*.

In sound mode, the internal recorder allows up to 10 records (with 2 parts each), and it records in MIDI format (max ~90,000 notes per recording). This MIDI recording can later be transferred to a USB stick (in MIDI format either in standard SMF or in Kawai's own KSO format, or, using the overdub function, also as MP3 or WAV).

For recording audio files (MP3 or WAV) directly, the USB Audio recorder is much more useful. This external recorder is only available if a USB stick is plugged in. Then, when you select the "Recorder" option, you have the choice between "Internal Recorder" and "USB Audio Recorder". If you select the latter, the recording will be stored directly on the USB stick. You then also have the choice between MP3 and WAV (via the three-lines menu icon in the top right corner), but unfortunately no MIDI format. This USB audio recorder is available both in pianist and sound mode.

So to summarize:
  • Pianist Mode, Internal Recorder: Recording cannot be saved/exported from the piano, except by recording the line-out signal.
  • Sound Mode, Internal Recorder: Recording can be exported to USB, in MIDI format or MP3/WAV.
  • Pianist & Sound Mode, USB Recorder: Recording happens directly on USB stick, either in MP3 or WAV format.


You should still be able to do what you wanted, i.e. to "keep recording until you are satisfied" (if a MP3/WAV recording is what you wanted - it is more complicated if you wanted MIDI while playing in pianist mode, see below). The best option, IMO, is if you plug in a USB stick and select the USB recorder, which gives you a MP3/WAV file right away. Alternatively, you can continue to use the internal recorder and, if you are satisfied, make the piano play back that recording while at the same time recording it. In pianist mode you would have to record the line-out signal* with a recording device (that in turn records in the desired MP3/WAV format), in sound mode you can use the overdub function to record it directly to a USB stick.

In addition to the weakness of the internal recorder in pianist mode, the pianist mode has one more hole: There is no way to record in MIDI format.

For this, there is fortunately a workaround, if you have a PC (or similar device) with the necessary MIDI software: Connect a PC via MIDI, with a MIDI software that allows recording in MIDI format. Start a recording with that software, then start playing on the piano (in pianist mode - of course you could also do this in sound mode, but in that mode, a recording with a PC is not really necessary, as the internal recorder of the piano already allows you to record in MIDI format, and also allows you to export that recording).

---

*: A footnote about using the internal recorder in pianist mode and then converting this into MP3/WAV by making the piano play back the recording and capturing the line-out signal: Although this is not stated explicitly in the manual, from the description it seems obvious that the internal recorder uses an audio format, and it stands to reason that this is a compressed format and not a lossless format. Which means that if you play back that recording to capture the line-out signal, that signal will already be the result of one additional level of lossy compression. Although this is speculation on my part and could be incorrect (i.e. that the internal recorder uses a lossless format after all). But in any case, with this method you always have the additional quality loss that you get as a result of the "quality" (or lack thereof) of your line-out cable and recording device, compared to having the piano save the WAV data right away, without any loss of quality.
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/21/18 10:15 AM
Hello JoBert,

Thank you for your detailed post.

Please refer to my previous post (which was edited perhaps before you wrote your reply to TomLC) in which I explain how the Overdub function (in the Record Playback function of the Music menu) can be used to 'convert' an song recorded to internal memory in Sound mode to an MP3/WAV audio file.

Note that the Overdub function is not explained in the original CA98/CA78/NV10 owner's manual, as this feature was added with a software update (v1.0.1, I believe...).

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/21/18 11:30 AM
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Please refer to my previous post (which was edited perhaps before you wrote your reply to TomLC) in which I explain how the Overdub function (in the Record Playback function of the Music menu) can be used to 'convert' an song recorded to internal memory in Sound mode to an MP3/WAV audio file.

Note that the Overdub function is not explained in the original CA98/CA78/NV10 owner's manual, as this feature was added with a software update (v1.0.1, I believe...).

Thanks for the info, that is a welcome change to the software (which had indeed escaped my notice). I have edited my post above accordingly.
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/21/18 01:02 PM
Originally Posted by Terry Michael
Gosh- I love it. I have the CS10 and like it a lot. May I kindly ask what the distance is from back to front? TIA


Terry, It is 25 1/2 inches from front to back. About 4 inches more than your CS10, I believe. I had the CS11 and for the sound board to function optimally, I placed it 3-4 inches away from the wall. There is no soundboard on the NV10, so I placed it almost touching the wall. So, basically, the difference is not noticeable. Is it available in Columbia?
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/21/18 03:41 PM
[quote=Kawai James]
Note that the Overdub function is not explained in the original CA98/CA78/NV10 owner's manual, as this feature was added with a software update (v1.0.1, I believe...).

Thank you, James, JoBert. I found the options you mentioned under the Music menu. I appreciate your help. I think I will just keep a USB drive plugged in all of the time. Just need to be sure it is selected if recording a song. The internal recorder is handy to hear back a lick or phase I am practicing.
Posted By: jtycho Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/21/18 07:08 PM
Do any of you know a dealer that will allow me to simply order over the phone? My local dealers don't seem to know much, nor were they even willing to discuss price over the phone (could be Kawai policy, IDK).
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/21/18 09:41 PM
Following up on the pedal discussion, I had a chance to crawl under a grand today (how many people who don't own one have actually done this, I wonder) and I was immediately struck by how similar the pedal mechanism was to that in the Novus. I mean, why wouldn't it be, it performs the same function? But it's just something I hadn't seen before, and made me really appreciate even more how true Kawai has stayed to acoustic piano design even where the mechanism is entirely hidden from view of the player.

First, JoBert's excellent image of the damper mechanism within the NV10:
[Linked Image]
Notice the wooden lever arm (2), the return spring and the wooden peg that travels through the bottom of the chassis to push up the action's damper rail (4), the leather pad above the rod capstan (3), and the bent-arm screw holding the lever up (between 2 and 4). When I first saw this, I thought it was an odd setup with weird mechanical allowances, and hy were all these intricate machined forms carved from wood? Why not metal/composite?

Now, here's what I saw under a pretty large grand:
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Clearly it's not identical, but the degree to which the mechanism is the same, to me at least, was striking. The rod terminates in a capstan pushing on a leather pad. The pad cushions a wooden lever arm that pushes a wooden peg up to the action's damper rail. It has the same return spring, and the same bent-arm screw design to limit the travel of the lever.

So, I just thought that was "mildly interesting." And seeing the acoustic grand mechanism really answered a lot of questions I had as to why Kawai designed its damper the way it did.

Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/21/18 09:56 PM
Very interesting pictures! Of course everything has more space, is "straighter" and larger, and the capstans on the rods are much more accessible for regulation on the grand than the NV10, but you can see that both have the same "genes", and keeping in mind the space constraints in the comparably small body of the NV10, those differences are not surprising.
Posted By: PianoZac Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/21/18 10:24 PM
Can’t deny I’m a little envious of all of you NV10 owners. Can’t imagine what the experience must be like to have an authentic GX series grand action mated to the exceptional Kawai DP Sound engine in a beautiful package. Congrats to all of you.
Posted By: Chrispy Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/21/18 11:36 PM
This is one of the best threads I've read on PW. Thanks everyone (obviously JoBert and Gombessa deserve special call outs) for all your hard work and investigation! This is the kind of stuff that keeps me coming smile
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/22/18 12:13 AM
+1

Nice job guys! wink
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/22/18 08:14 PM
Only slightly on topic: I just saw a classified ad in ebay-kleinanzeigen (=German equivalent to Craigslist, CL itself is irrelevant in Germany), where someone sells his new NV10, still in the original box. According to the ad, she(?) ordered it months ago, but when delivery was delayed again and again, she bought something different. shocked
The kicker: The asking price is 8700€. Either that is deliberately high to give the buyer room to negotiate downwards, or it is simply too high. It's just 300€ below current street price, which then includes the 5 year warranty from Kawai (which this supposedly-new-but-still-second-hand piano does not)... confused
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/22/18 08:41 PM
Originally Posted by JoBert
According to the ad, she(?) ordered it months ago, but when delivery was delayed again and again, she bought something different. shocked


Huh. stateside, you can always cancel without penalty prior to the product shipping (unless it is a custom work created specifically for the buyer). I suspect the same applies across Europe, meaning the buyer just "forgot" about $10k. Must be nice to be able to do that smile
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/22/18 08:52 PM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by JoBert
According to the ad, she(?) ordered it months ago, but when delivery was delayed again and again, she bought something different. shocked


Huh. stateside, you can always cancel without penalty prior to the product shipping (unless it is a custom work created specifically for the buyer). I suspect the same applies across Europe, meaning the buyer just "forgot" about $10k. Must be nice to be able to do that smile

Exactly. I have a hard time imagining a piano dealer who would not be willing to cancel such an order before delivery (especially if delivery was delayed several times). Seems strange. Maybe it's not the whole story? confused
Posted By: JoeT Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/22/18 11:28 PM
Originally Posted by JoBert
Only slightly on topic: I just saw a classified ad in ebay-kleinanzeigen (=German equivalent to Craigslist, CL itself is irrelevant in Germany), where someone sells his new NV10, still in the original box. According to the ad, she(?) ordered it months ago, but when delivery was delayed again and again, she bought something different. shocked
The kicker: The asking price is 8700€. Either that is deliberately high to give the buyer room to negotiate downwards, or it is simply too high. It's just 300€ below current street price, which then includes the 5 year warranty from Kawai (which this supposedly-new-but-still-second-hand piano does not)... confused

Or it's just some kind of the usual scams and there is no piano at all.
Posted By: Tyr Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/23/18 10:07 AM
Originally Posted by TomLC
Sorry, I am trying to learn to at post a picture on a forum.

[Linked Image]


This is my new NV10.


Good to see that Kawai has reached Australia. smile
Posted By: Dave Horne Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/23/18 10:30 AM
If you right click that image and View Image, it will appear right side up ... or at least it does on my setup.
Posted By: Bambers Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/23/18 02:19 PM
Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by JoBert
According to the ad, she(?) ordered it months ago, but when delivery was delayed again and again, she bought something different. shocked


Huh. stateside, you can always cancel without penalty prior to the product shipping (unless it is a custom work created specifically for the buyer). I suspect the same applies across Europe, meaning the buyer just "forgot" about $10k. Must be nice to be able to do that smile

Exactly. I have a hard time imagining a piano dealer who would not be willing to cancel such an order before delivery (especially if delivery was delayed several times). Seems strange. Maybe it's not the whole story? confused


I'd be surprised if Germany didn't already have something in place like that but the right to cancel orders has been covered by EU wide directives on distance selling since at least the late 90s. Not only that but you can send back goods bought unseen for any reason for a full refund inc basic delivery charge. The EU minimum was 7 days from receipt of the goods but this was increased to 14 days a couple of years ago, though quite a few member states were already at 14 days anyway.

Seems rather suspicious!

Obviously there's some exceptions like goods made to order, perishables and software/digital goods.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/23/18 02:22 PM
I don't want to get into conspiracy theories and all that, it could very well be that the buyer is on the nonconfrontational side and isn't aware of MOTO rules or doesn't want to bother with them. But clearly this is a case of caveat emptor. Is 300eur worth the risk on a 9000eur purchase? Here's hoping the potential buyers here are savvy.
Posted By: JoeT Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/23/18 03:50 PM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
But clearly this is a case of caveat emptor. Is 300eur worth the risk on a 9000eur purchase?

That's why you usually get offered a steep discount on the phone and then end up with no piano after sending the money.

That's nothing new on CL. wink
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/23/18 09:41 PM
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Gombessa
But clearly this is a case of caveat emptor. Is 300eur worth the risk on a 9000eur purchase?

That's why you usually get offered a steep discount on the phone and then end up with no piano after sending the money.

That's nothing new on CL. wink


Does anyone buy unseen to ship on CL? Except for the "I'll pay you extra for shipping to me at a military APO" scams, it's a local marketplace so you'd expect to go and see/try/pick up the product yourself. Harder with a 400lb piano but a pickup would do the trick.
Posted By: bSharp(C)yclist Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/23/18 10:04 PM
Oh, I love those CL scams. I've been trying to sell my YDP-181 on there. I had one lady (back in December) send me a check (obviously fake) for $1300, asking me to cash it and give $800 to shipper who would ship the YDP-181 to the east coast (from California). Upon delivery, she would send me the rest of the money for the YPD-181. After sending the check, she messaged me asking if I got it. I said yes, I cashed it and bought a bunch of cocaine. And thanked her for making my new year merry ;0

Also I had one guy (military) from the New England area say something similar. I returned his initial message saying don't bother with the scam. He said, no scam, he was very serious. I laughed and said, really, you're going to buy a YDP-181 on the other side of the continent and have it shipped ...

And the low ballers, not really scammers. Their first question - what's your best price? I say, the list price it's fair. Oh, come on dude, what's your best price?? So I ask, what's the most you are willing to spend? They return with a low number, so I return with a number about $200 higher than the original list price. Haha.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/23/18 10:08 PM
Bsharp, you can be PW's resident 419eater smile
Posted By: peraspera19 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/23/18 10:44 PM
To add to all of this extensive analysis, would one of the lucky NV10 owners mind checking the down weight of the action? I was interested in the N2, but felt the action was rather heavy.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/23/18 10:59 PM
Middle C: 50.0g (a stack of exactly 20 US pennies)

Mass on the front of the key, damper depressed, key drops down to escapement and no further.

The key doesn't drop on its own with 50g, I have to tap the underside of the keybed lightly 2-3x to get it started, but once it gets over the small initial resistance, it drops rather quickly--it would probably do so with one less penny (47.5g) on the stack but I didn't try that.

Posted By: peraspera19 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/23/18 11:01 PM
Wow that was FAST! Thanks so much Gombessa!
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/23/18 11:33 PM
Mine is about the same, although slightly heavier at around 53g (I didn't dare tapping the underside more than gently, as people are sleeping). I guess that's inside of the typical variation and/or measuring error.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/24/18 12:34 AM
Yeah, my scale could be off as well. I'd say with different pianos, and different people, halfway around the world, a 3g difference is pretty consistent!
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/24/18 07:27 PM
Today I've had the fallboard off of my NV10 again (for unrelated reasons), so I thought I might try to answer this question that was still open:
Originally Posted by Gombessa
If you softly push a key down exactly to the resistance of the letoff, and then forcefully press the key to the bottom, do you consistently get a note played, on all/most keys?
...
Can you check to see if the hammer actually flies (and hits the stop rail) when a key is pressed like this?

We had already discussed the answer to the first question, i.e. that no, when doing this experiment, I cannot get a note played. So now I wanted to answer the second question: It is a bit difficult to tell, but from all I could see, I think the answer is yes, the hammer is indeed thrown.

So the question is, why doesn't the note play then?

My theory is, that it is a combination of the nature of the experiment itself, and the way the sensor works.

The sensor, even though it measures hammer movement optically (and not key movement by pressure, as most "normal" DPs), still measures the velocity of the hammer, not the force with which the hammer hits the stop rail.
If I understand the technology correctly, the sensor consists of a fixed optical unit (with a laser) and a shutter that is attached to the base of the hammer shank. To determine the velocity of the hammer, the sensor probably uses the shutter/laser combination to detect two positions of the hammer shank, and the velocity is then a function of the time elapsed between these two positions.
  • Very short time: High velocity -> high MIDI value. This is what happens when you play ff.
  • Very long time: Low velocity -> low MIDI value. This is what happens when you play pp.
  • Even longer time: Velocity too low -> MIDI value 1 (=no note played). This is what happens if you botch the pp and press the key too softly.
  • Much, much longer time: Velocity too low -> MIDI value 1 (=no note played). I think this is what happens in the above experiment.

As you can see, for the sound engine, there is no difference between a botched pp where the key was pressed just a tad too softly, so that no note was played, and the last case, which I think is the case that happens in the above experiment. In both cases, the system generates the MIDI value 1, which means, "key was pressed, but no note played".

Why do I think that this last case is what happens in our "experiment"? Because if you look at what happens with the hammer during the experiment, you can see that when you slowly press the key up to the resistance of the letoff, the hammer is already moved upwards quite a bit. (Which is of course totally logical. After all, the letoff is the moment when the hammer is decoupled from the key, so the hammer must already have moved at this point. If it hadn't, and the key was decoupled before the hammer even starts moving, then the hammer would never move at all!).
And since the hammer has already moved upwards quite a bit, the sensor has probably already passed the first measuring position, where the measurement for the elapsed time starts. Only we, while doing this experiment, hesitate so long until we finally press down the key fully, that it takes a (relatively) loooong time for the hammer to finally reach the second measuring position. Depending on how slowly you "feel" your way down to the letoff point and how quickly thereafter you then press down the key, the time between the two measuring positions can be even several seconds (but certainly at least some tenths of a second). And this is of course an elapsed time that never happens during normal play. So while the hammer eventually reaches the second position, the system calculates a veeeery low velocity, hence the MIDI value 1 = no note played.

So my theory is, that the way we are performing the experiment, in combination with how the sensor works, actually makes it impossible to measure what we want to measure, as we artificially increase the time between the two sensor positions so much, that the result must be "no note played".

So is that a problem when actually playing the instrument?

I don't think so. Although my technique is not good enough to reliably play "from the letoff", I assume that when a pianist who has mastered the technique does this, then he (or she) will not slowly and gently press the key down (=taking quite a bit of time) until he consciously feels the letoff, and then, after a reaction time delay (after noticing the letoff notch feeling), finally press down the key fully. That method, even if mastered, would only allow to play maybe one note every second or so. No, I think that a pianist who plays with this technique plays this much more fluidly. He has a "feeling" where the letoff is, without having to slowly approach it as we do in our experiment, so the total of the key press is still relatively quick, regarding the time between the two measuring points of the sensor, which is interpreted as a low, but not too low, velocity, which results in a low MIDI value >1, which in turn produces a pp or ppp note - just as desired.

OK, now poke holes in my theory! grin


Posted By: CyberGene Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/24/18 07:44 PM
JoBert, thanks for this explanation. Can you elaborate more on the optical sensors bit, if that’s visible? Where are they located, what do you mean by shutters, etc? As you probably know I was researching the possibility to build my own hybrid controller. I’ve contacted a piano technician and we’re currently waiting for a good opportunity for a broken grand piano with acceptable and preserved action. In the meanwhile I researched sensor technology. I’m not sure how AG and NV which is why I ask you about the latter. I also checked the Alpha piano and it uses force sensors that the hammers hit. The force sensors are offered by a German company:
https://www.hoffmann-krippner.com/polymer-strain-gage/

In the materials they say this is a cheap and convenient solution and for my purposes it looks like so, but they haven’t yet answered to my enquiry about price. Wondering if they will ever do since I am just a hobbyist and not a company.

So I need to consider if optical sensors are feasible solution. And how Kawai have implemented it exactly.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/24/18 07:50 PM
Interesting, so the hammer does fly! Thanks for that JoBert.

While I agree there is some timing element or interaction with the the key sensor, I feel if the hammer flies and hits the rail, there needs to be a sound regardless of velocity (after all, it hits the string right?).

What is REALLY interesting is that MIDI registers the hit. CFX shows the key stuck if "played off the jack" with sufficient force, though there is also no sound made. Play it "silently" and no strike is registered. So there is something very conscious being decided here for some reason.

I agree it doesn't affect regular play (at least not my play) but it's interesting to note.
Posted By: ando Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/24/18 08:42 PM
Originally Posted by CyberGene
JoBert, thanks for this explanation. Can you elaborate more on the optical sensors bit, if that’s visible? Where are they located, what do you mean by shutters, etc? As you probably know I was researching the possibility to build my own hybrid controller. I’ve contacted a piano technician and we’re currently waiting for a good opportunity for a broken grand piano with acceptable and preserved action. In the meanwhile I researched sensor technology. I’m not sure how AG and NV which is why I ask you about the latter. I also checked the Alpha piano and it uses force sensors that the hammers hit. The force sensors are offered by a German company:
https://www.hoffmann-krippner.com/polymer-strain-gage/

In the materials they say this is a cheap and convenient solution and for my purposes it looks like so, but they haven’t yet answered to my enquiry about price. Wondering if they will ever do since I am just a hobbyist and not a company.

So I need to consider if optical sensors are feasible solution. And how Kawai have implemented it exactly.


I'm sure they will answer your enquiry, Gene - after all, a lot of single person hobbyists become startup companies at some point, and startups can become volume orderers at some point too... smile

I found this picture interesting:

[Linked Image]

Looking at that, this printed circuitboard appears to be able to take a lot of mechanical force! I wonder what the life expectancy of such a material is? That is quite a lot of force and displacement that a piano hammer could create (especially a bass hammer). If you decided to use the hammers that come with your piano action, you would have to compensate for the extra force that would be detected by the strain gage polymer depending on which key it was - that sounds pretty complicated. You mentioned you wanted to eliminate the "grading" anyway, so maybe it would be easier to attach identical hammers, or hammer replacements so that the sensor response is the same for each key (less programming work). But that would require you to adjust the key weighting by removing/drilling key leads so that each key has the same key weight, shank length, and hammer mass (more mechanical work). Plenty to consider there in terms of where you put your time. It's all manageable though.

I'll be interested to follow this project, Gene!
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/24/18 09:04 PM
I think this is the point where actual hammer position differs from the lowest sensor on a DP.

On a DP, lowest sensor, whether on hammer or on key, alone can signify a silent press. However, I'm not convinced that the same thing can be said of an acoustic piano hammer. Assuming the lowest sensor position is the point where the hammer meets the string, there should *always* be a strike anytime the hammer reaches that point, regardless of any previous hammer position. A hammer strike is always a momentary "point source," the hammer never rests against the string. So imo there should be a minimum volume which which always sounds if a hammer ever reaches the strike point, even if there is zero other input to consider, right? Maybe I'm missing something about how a piano action works, but that's my thought.
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/24/18 09:06 PM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
While I agree there is some timing element or interaction with the the key sensor, I feel if the hammer flies and hits the rail, there needs to be a sound regardless of velocity (after all, it hits the string right?).

But that's the thing, the piano doesn't know that the hammer hits the rail, because there is no sensor that register a rail hit.
Essentially, there's only a sensor that registers the hammer movement at two positions, and calculates the velocity from the elapsed time (the reality how that is measured may be more complex, I'm not an expert on these sensors). If that velocity is high enough so that the hammer would have reached the string (if there were a string), you get a MIDI value >1, otherwise you get =1. Im sure that this is calibrated quite well so that the minimum velocity required to simulated a "string hit" is essentially identical to the actual velocity in an acoustic piano with the same action.

What we have here is a discrepancy between the measured velocity (=veeery slow) and the actual velocity after the moment of letoff (=fast enough to hit the rail).

However, in my opinion that discrepancy never happens while actually playing the piano (even with advanced technique). So if this happens only in the artificial situation of an experiment, then I'm not losing sleep over it. smile

Originally Posted by CyberGene
JoBert, thanks for this explanation. Can you elaborate more on the optical sensors bit, if that’s visible?

That's actually not very visible even with the fallboard and/or the back panel removed, but I can refer to the following picture from the Novus announcement page (I've posted that before):
[Linked Image]
The upper picture shows the action with the actual sensor bar removed. What you still see are however the sensor shutters that are attached to the base of the hammer shanks (the little black window-like fins on top of the shank bases). If the sensor bar is installed (as shown in the second picture) then these shutters will disrupt the light of the sensor laser (one sensor per hammer) which can be measured and used to calculate the velocity (note that the yellow laser beams in the second picture were added for illustration purposes, and are not visible in real life).
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/24/18 09:16 PM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
I think this is the point where actual hammer position differs from the lowest sensor on a DP.

On a DP, lowest sensor, whether on hammer or on key, alone can signify a silent press. However, I'm not convinced that the same thing can be said of an acoustic piano hammer. Assuming the lowest sensor position is the point where the hammer meets the string, there should *always* be a strike anytime the hammer reaches that point, regardless of any previous hammer position. A hammer strike is always a momentary "point source," the hammer never rests against the string. So imo there should be a minimum volume which which always sounds if a hammer ever reaches the strike point, even if there is zero other input to consider, right? Maybe I'm missing something about how a piano action works, but that's my thought.

You wrote that while I was writing my response above, so I didn't see it before.

Now I understand your thought process.

My guess is: It would be much too complicated to calibrate the second sensor position to fall exactly together with the rail hit. The tolerances would just be too tiny: Just a tad misaligned, and the sensor does not register a note at all, even though the hammer actually hits the rail, i.e. the rail would stop the hammer before the second sensor position! Then that key would be permanently silent, which would be a catastrophe.
I think that for reasons like this, the second sensor position is reached before the hammer hits the rail. And if that is so, then this second position is only good for measuring velocity, but not good for making assumptions if the string (rail) was actually reached or not. Or rather: That assumption can only be made based on the measured velocity, not based on the fact that the second sensor position was reached.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/24/18 09:19 PM
Yeah I've seen those pics smile I have wondered before if there is a difference with the Kawai I HAS optical sensors and Yamaha's "continuous" optical sensors though from Yamaha's pictures they also use similar open shutters.

From the pictures there are *two* sensors per hammer. One closed shutter (smaller) and one (larger) open shutter with a window. I'm assuming that the open shutter position is the exact point of strike against the rail (why would it be anything otherwise? You'd just need to interpolate a hit). Which is why I would also think that any time that shutter is tripped, you can reliably register a tone.

Also, remember if you just barely raise your finger from the letoff (a fraction of a mm), you can trigger a tone no matter how long you wait before the strike. That suggests a few possibilities, but it makes a pure timing difference less likely (why register a tone with >>time from letoff but not >>time just above letoff, when the midi signal registers the same input?)

Edit: as to the sensor being slightly before the rail, that shouldn't change things as the rail serves no tone generating purpose (it only physically stops the hammer). The point of tone generation should be the instant (or +x ms) the hammer trips the bottom sensor, just as on any DP, even if the rail is 2mm away. Imo there little point in measuring the end point of a strike and assuming it doesn't hit the string.

It could very well work the way you describe but that really seems non-ideal to me, particularly when Kawai and every other dp maker has demonstrated significantly higher sensor precision with standard DP actions.
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/24/18 09:40 PM
I was thinking a lot about how I would implement optical sensing in my DIY project (although saying this it sounds like it’s all so serious whereas I’m really hesitant and rather pessimistic) and I went through almost exactly the same thoughts I read in your last posts Gombessa and JoBert smile For instance, if having two sensors, one should be very close to where hammer hits the rail but not too close because it might miss real hits and not too far since it would think there is a hit while the hammer won’t actuslly be hitting the rail. And then that even if that’s the case I can actually know from the calculated velocity whether the hammer is expected to hit the rail or not...

A particular problem I think of is how to equalize sensor distances in a DIY project. In a commercial piano they are both manufactured with tight tolerances and probably calibrated. But I would struggle with that. I prefer the Alpha piano approach with strain gages but I’m also thinking if it is durable and whether it’s precise enough, as well as producing instant enough reading. After all, that all sensing thing is far from trivial.
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/24/18 10:15 PM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Edit: as to the sensor being slightly before the rail, that shouldn't change things as the rail serves no tone generating purpose (it only physically stops the hammer). The point of tone generation should be the instant (or +x ms) the hammer trips the bottom sensor, just as on any DP, even if the rail is 2mm away.

That makes sense. I guess I had still misunderstood what you meant... smile

Originally Posted by Gombessa
Also, remember if you just barely raise your finger from the letoff (a fraction of a mm), you can trigger a tone no matter how long you wait before the strike. That suggests a few possibilities, but it makes a pure timing difference less likely (why register a tone with >>time from letoff but not >>time just above letoff, when the midi signal registers the same input?)

I think that is actually quite easy to explain. The first sensor is right there at the letoff point. If you feel the letoff distinctly, then you have already passed the first sensor. If you back off by a fraction of a mm, where you don't feel the letoff as obviously, then you are again "before" the first sensor.
As a result, in the first situation, when you obviously feel the letoff, you are already past the first sensor. If you now hesitate to press the key, you artificially increase the time between the two sensors to such a long time, that the calculated velocity is impossibly slow, so MIDI value = 1.
In the second situation, just a tiny bit before the previous point, you are still "before" the first sensor. You can now hesitate as long as you like, because you hesitate before both sensors. And as soon as you press the key, the hammer will then pass both sensors and the two sensors together can properly measure the velocity, so MIDI value >1.
The problem is, that the letoff point (as represented by the notch that you can feel) is a region, not a dimensionless point. So the position of the first sensor in relation to the letoff "region" is always a compromise. Put it early, when you barely start to feel the letoff? Or put it late, when the letoff notch is very obvious? Or maybe very late, juuuust before the letoff occurs? I can't begin to guess the advantages/disadvantages of these, but the Kawai (Novus?) sensors seem to be placed quite early in the letoff "region" (although that could probably be changed by regulating the letoff?).
(One thing I noticed when I opened the fallboard today: It is very, very difficult to hold he hammer still at the letoff point. Because of the levers involved, even the tiniest movement of the key, just like the fraction of a mm you mention, results in a hammer movement that is obvious to the naked eye - and if I can see it, then I'm sure the sensor can see it. So it is very possibly that such a tiny fraction can result in a movement that results in passing, or not passing, the first sensor.)

And that's also why I'm not losing any sleep over this behavior of the sensors/action: The first situation, where you artificially hesitate between the two sensors, does not really happen during normal play. You cannot be "hesitating" right on the letoff notch for every note, or you could only ever play Andante or Largo wink. And playing "from the letoff" without that artifical hesitation works fine even with the sensors in the Novus.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/24/18 10:37 PM
Originally Posted by JoBert

I think that is actually quite easy to explain. The first sensor is right there at the letoff point. If you feel the letoff distinctly, then you have already passed the first sensor. If you back off by a fraction of a mm, where you don't feel the letoff as obviously, then you are again "before" the first sensor.



The problem with this is what the midi data suggests. If you are at the letoff (past the first sensor), you can still get a midi strike (or not) depending solely on how hard you press the key from that point (though still, no note sounds even if the strike is registered). That means it's impossible (super unlikely) for it to be a 2 sensor system where the first sensor is before or at the letoff.

When you confirmed that the hammer does fly to the rail when played off the jack, it strongly suggests to me that the fact that no note sounds is purely a software decision. Kawai could have registered velocity 2 (or higher) when played off the jack, and could still register velocity 1 if played softly enough for no note to be triggered.

But yes, this is all academic and doesn't bother me in any case; I have yet to encounter a situation in real playing where the nv10 doesn't behave like a real piano smile
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/24/18 10:37 PM
Ideally, both sensors should be after the let off point, so that hammer is freely moving and not influenced by key anymore. Thus the velocity reading will be precise. Otherwise a lot of fooling situations might happen. For instance you can press slowly the key passing through first sensor that starts the timer. Then keep key a bit further without moving it. And then push it forcefully. The hammer would’ve hit the rail with high velocity but the time would be so long as to produce zero velocity. However let off is very close to string already so if you need to put both sensors after that point you’d end up with way too short a distance and the measurement precision would suffer. So a compromise needs to be sought.
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/24/18 11:12 PM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
The problem with this is what the midi data suggests. If you are at the letoff (past the first sensor), you can still get a midi strike (or not) depending solely on how hard you press the key from that point (though still, no note sounds even if the strike is registered). That means it's impossible (super unlikely) for it to be a 2 sensor system where the first sensor is before or at the letoff.

I'm not sure if I'm not misunderstanding something again, but I don't see a reason why that should not be possible with two sensors: First you move the key slowly to the letoff, passing the first sensor (just by a tiny fraction), then you hesitate. Then you press the key down fully, either forcefully or less forcefully.
In the first case, the force is enough to let the hammer fly past the second sensor -> MIDI strike (but with velocity 1, because you hesitated so longer after the first sensor). In the second case, the force is not enough to let the hammer reach the second sensor before it falls back -> no MIDI strike.
That is just like it would behave with an acoustic: Enough force -> hits string. Not enough force -> falls back without hitting string.
And that is actually consistent with what I saw today: With the very first tries, after reaching the letoff point, I did not press the key down forcefully, but rather lightly. And the hammer did then indeed not fly up, but simply dropped back down (with only a slight upwards bump that would not have reached the strings in an acoustic piano). My first reaction was actually "Ah, so the hammer does not fly up! ... Huh, that's not what I expected". Then I repeated that and now I did press down with more force, and then I could see the hammer flying up.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/25/18 12:09 AM
Btw, just let me say I really enjoy these hypothetical musings. I imagine some engineers from Kawai and Yamaha sitting back in a chair with a hot mug of coffee, browsing through these threads and rolling their eyes thinking "psshht, amateurs!"

I think you're right, I was confusing the behavior of hammer sensors with key sensors. With the first sensor triggered at letoff, the second can be struck if you press down firmly, or not struck if you press down lightly. All the more reason to do as Cybergene suggests and have both sensors triggered after the letoff, when you know the hammer is moving on its own. Sorry, I didn't think this one through carefully!

But I still think it doesn't make much sense to have the final sensor represent a point in the middle of travel (unless it is a technically-required compromise). Why put yourself in a position of having to guess whether the hammer strikes the string, and guessing wrong 100% of the time with a technique common enough to have its own name, when you can just define that sensor as the string? Perhaps there's some rebound issues to consider?

Here's an interesting artifact: If you go to Sound Mode, and in Virtual Technical change Touch Curve to off, then you can trigger a note even if the hammer never hits the "bottom/final" sensor. In fact, the note triggers above the letoff, well before the point of final resistance. What's difficult to tell is whether the note is being triggered by a hammer sensor (suggesting that is in fact above the letoff), or by a key sensor.

EVEN MORE interesting, if you press the key just right (about pp) in this mode, you can reliably trigger a double-note, suggesting it is registering a strike upon the aformentioned first sensor, as well as on the final hammer sensor. My guess is Kawai may have ported this feature over from a standard triple sensor digital, and didn't fully take into account the fact that there is an extra sensor input in the hybrid (hammer sensors + key sensors). If you press the key more firmly or softly, it "knows" to cancel out the double note. But at just the right velocity (about pp) you consistently get two notes.

Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/25/18 05:06 AM
So, a very interesting discovery amidst all this talk of hammer and key sensor positions:

It seems in Virtual Technician, if I set "touch curve" to "off", in either pianist or sound mode, some keys will sound as soon as the key is pressed a certain amount (near the letoff point) no matter how slowly the key is pressed, and other keys will only sound when the key is pressed with enough velocity to throw the hammer. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to which key will exhibit which behavior. Do I have some VT settings mixed up?

Also, with a fairly light key press, it's very easy to trigger a rapid double note (which I suspect is a top sensor triggering a note as well as a bottom sensor, which escapes some redundant note detection?).
Posted By: Galuwen Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/25/18 06:59 AM
Originally Posted by JoBert
Today I've had the fallboard off of my NV10 again (for unrelated reasons), so I thought I might try to answer this question that was still open:
Originally Posted by Gombessa
If you softly push a key down exactly to the resistance of the letoff, and then forcefully press the key to the bottom, do you consistently get a note played, on all/most keys?
...
Can you check to see if the hammer actually flies (and hits the stop rail) when a key is pressed like this?

We had already discussed the answer to the first question, i.e. that no, when doing this experiment, I cannot get a note played. So now I wanted to answer the second question: It is a bit difficult to tell, but from all I could see, I think the answer is yes, the hammer is indeed thrown.

So the question is, why doesn't the note play then?

My theory is, that it is a combination of the nature of the experiment itself, and the way the sensor works.

The sensor, even though it measures hammer movement optically (and not key movement by pressure, as most "normal" DPs), still measures the velocity of the hammer, not the force with which the hammer hits the stop rail.
If I understand the technology correctly, the sensor consists of a fixed optical unit (with a laser) and a shutter that is attached to the base of the hammer shank. To determine the velocity of the hammer, the sensor probably uses the shutter/laser combination to detect two positions of the hammer shank, and the velocity is then a function of the time elapsed between these two positions.
  • Very short time: High velocity -> high MIDI value. This is what happens when you play ff.
  • Very long time: Low velocity -> low MIDI value. This is what happens when you play pp.
  • Even longer time: Velocity too low -> MIDI value 1 (=no note played). This is what happens if you botch the pp and press the key too softly.
  • Much, much longer time: Velocity too low -> MIDI value 1 (=no note played). I think this is what happens in the above experiment.

As you can see, for the sound engine, there is no difference between a botched pp where the key was pressed just a tad too softly, so that no note was played, and the last case, which I think is the case that happens in the above experiment. In both cases, the system generates the MIDI value 1, which means, "key was pressed, but no note played".

Why do I think that this last case is what happens in our "experiment"? Because if you look at what happens with the hammer during the experiment, you can see that when you slowly press the key up to the resistance of the letoff, the hammer is already moved upwards quite a bit. (Which is of course totally logical. After all, the letoff is the moment when the hammer is decoupled from the key, so the hammer must already have moved at this point. If it hadn't, and the key was decoupled before the hammer even starts moving, then the hammer would never move at all!).
And since the hammer has already moved upwards quite a bit, the sensor has probably already passed the first measuring position, where the measurement for the elapsed time starts. Only we, while doing this experiment, hesitate so long until we finally press down the key fully, that it takes a (relatively) loooong time for the hammer to finally reach the second measuring position. Depending on how slowly you "feel" your way down to the letoff point and how quickly thereafter you then press down the key, the time between the two measuring positions can be even several seconds (but certainly at least some tenths of a second). And this is of course an elapsed time that never happens during normal play. So while the hammer eventually reaches the second position, the system calculates a veeeery low velocity, hence the MIDI value 1 = no note played.

So my theory is, that the way we are performing the experiment, in combination with how the sensor works, actually makes it impossible to measure what we want to measure, as we artificially increase the time between the two sensor positions so much, that the result must be "no note played".

So is that a problem when actually playing the instrument?

I don't think so. Although my technique is not good enough to reliably play "from the letoff", I assume that when a pianist who has mastered the technique does this, then he (or she) will not slowly and gently press the key down (=taking quite a bit of time) until he consciously feels the letoff, and then, after a reaction time delay (after noticing the letoff notch feeling), finally press down the key fully. That method, even if mastered, would only allow to play maybe one note every second or so. No, I think that a pianist who plays with this technique plays this much more fluidly. He has a "feeling" where the letoff is, without having to slowly approach it as we do in our experiment, so the total of the key press is still relatively quick, regarding the time between the two measuring points of the sensor, which is interpreted as a low, but not too low, velocity, which results in a low MIDI value >1, which in turn produces a pp or ppp note - just as desired.

OK, now poke holes in my theory! grin




Hi Jobert,

I think you are very close with your theory with how the optical sensor works together with let off. Those had the reason why all DP manufacturers use triple sensors today.

The only exception I found to get rid of the problem on close to acoustic actions is the alpha piano where in a addition an "elastic target" is hit like the string on an acoustic and the good old Yamaha CP80 ;-).

Little bit is aso caused by the fact that KAWAI seem a to n oh t regulate the close to acoustic actions in the factory. How should the w/o astringent their "artisans" will never touch it because electric is devil's breed ;-) ;-) ;-).

Do my humbling opinion they seem to have general problems to touch their instruments before shipping. Otherwise it can't breed explained to me how their touch display (not properly) works.

Even the manual leaves us behind in riddles and ???????.

Galuwen
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/25/18 10:52 AM
The only picture of AvantGrand action I could find is this:
[Linked Image]

To me it seems there's only one optical shutter on the hammer shanks, in contrast to the NV10 where there are two sensors. And there are the optical sensors beneath the keys as on NU1. That makes me wonder if N-series actually measure real hammer velocity? Maybe they rely mainly on the under key sensors, exactly as this is done on NU1 and that's proven to be pretty reliable and expressive. In that case they may use the hammer shank shutter as a precaution against sudden loud notes or any other jamming possibility, as much unlikely as that might be. If you have a good hammer behavior modeling, you can predict hammer movement even from beneath the keys. So, you might need the hammer shank sensors only as an on/off switch. Or maybe it still measures velocity by taking into account the key sensors as a start point and then the shank shutter as ending point?
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/25/18 11:26 AM
There may be benefits to coordinating between the key sensor and hammer sensor, but to me the big question is how the "continuous" nature of the sensor comes into play. We're all talking about the optical sensors as analogous to single impact contact sensors, but if it is actually continuous then that may be why we see only one shutter (you can measure the position of a single shutter without a separate sensor to establish velocity reference), and it also would seem like quite a waste of good data to only use it as a backstop to the key sensor (which only really needs to exist for the key damper function). But who knows!
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/25/18 11:31 AM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Btw, just let me say I really enjoy these hypothetical musings. I imagine some engineers from Kawai and Yamaha sitting back in a chair with a hot mug of coffee, browsing through these threads and rolling their eyes thinking "psshht, amateurs!"
LOL, I can see that! And the other forum members rolling their eyes, thinking "psshht, fanatics!"... crazy
laugh

Gene, remember that you need three sensors: One sensor to sense "key down/up" to sense when the key is pressed and released, so that you know when the key damper is up/down, and two sensors to calculate velocity.
(I know, on two sensor DPs, the first sensor is used both for "damper up" and as the first velocity sensor, but newer DPs have three distinct sensors, and the first velocity sensor is lower (in terms of key travel) than the "damper up" sensor (usually at letoff).)

I can imagine how the optical sensor with the shutter that has this little "window" alone is already enough to measure velocity: When the shank flies up, first the upper edge interrupts the laser (=measurement starts) then the shank goes up more and the little window again opens the way for the laser, which is then interrupted again when the shank goes up even more and the lower edge now interrupts the laser (=second measurement). Thus you have the two measurements that you need to calculate velocity, from this single optical sensor.
So now you just need another sensor for key-down/damper-up. I think that's what the key sensor does in the AvantGrand. I'm not sure how that is done in the Kawai system. I'm pretty sure that there aren't any sensors under the keys in a place similar to the AvantGrand, so that sensor must be somewhere else. Maybe it's that second optical sensor on the hammer shank (the lower sensor with the simpler "windowless", fin like shutter).
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/25/18 11:57 AM
Yeah, and you'd also have to account for the rebound as the hammer drops after hitting the silent rail, so it would need know the second set of interruptions should be ignored. Maybe that's what the continuous sensing does--it can more reliably tell upward versus downward velocity?
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/25/18 12:01 PM
The whole talk here makes me realize how more natural the Alpha piano approach with the strain gages is. You just measure how hard the hammer hits it and that's it. And an an on/off switch for the keys (although a continuous control might still be better for a smooth damper release).
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/25/18 01:25 PM
The Alpha sensors seem to be a cheaper approach than the optical sensors used by Novus/AvantGrand, but I assume that at some point the sensors on the Alpha would need to be maintained/replaced due to all the pounding from the hammer heads?
I was under the impression that the “touch-sensor-tech” used in the Alpha was proprietary and expensive, but it seems like it’s actually “cheap” and can be bought directly from the manufacturer (not Alpha). I wonder if we will see this tech in other digital pianos.
From a layman’s perspective it seems like a step closer to hammers striking strings in terms of replicating a piano’s mechanics; is it a better approach than optical sensors for registering, processing, and rendering, I ask the gurus?
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/25/18 01:53 PM
I am not an expert in any way - neither in piano mechanics stuff, nor electronics. (BTW, I have a degree in engineering physics with a specialization in semiconductors and optoelectronics, however due to numerous circumstances I've never practiced it and I was never keen on that education in the first place, and as a result, 20 years later, my knowledge on that matter is close to zero). On the other hand I researched a lot how I can create my own hybrid controller in the last few weeks.

So here's my layman's opinion on that. From what I gathered, the strain gages are resistive coils or similar flexible patterns that change their resistance in relation to force applied. From what I gathered so far, most of those are not very precise (I've seen quotes of 1% precision of max value, which would mean total of 100 steps detected? Which is less than 127 MIDI values and that's still if we assume we can generate force in the full range.). Another problem I've seen is with the time for reaction that doesn't seem to be instantaneous and in some other quotes I've seen is around 1ms but might be wrong due to the limited information I could obtain on that. All that made it clear to me, those would be unusable as piano sensors despite seemingly close to how real piano works: the hammer hits the string and it's the force of the hit that determines how loud the sound is. Anyway, later on I discovered how Alpha works and the link to the company. They state the sensors are specifically designed by (?) or at least manufactured with Alpha in mind so most probably they are much more precise than usual and faster reacting. However my first thought was the same like yours: how does the flexible part which seem like just an exposed PCB would endure constant pounding? Will it preserve its sensibility, calibration, precision? IMHO that's not the case. Maybe it will work 1 year? 2, 3? But ultimately that's a physical and relatively high-force contact and I am yet to see a material that could withstand it. Please note the typical digital piano sensors are only on/off switches and they still break. Let alone a flexible sensor that needs to provide consistent reading for the same force throughout its life.

Yamaha and Kawai are "old dogs" (that's a Bulgarian saying meaning very experienced laugh ) in the business and I doubt it they would put optical sensors if that wasn't the best solution to the problem.
Posted By: Bambers Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/25/18 02:16 PM
Would be interesting to know if this applies to atx2 implementations.

Regardless of the precise details on the sensors it does sound like they're set just a little too low than would be ideal in the hammer's travel.
Posted By: newer player Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/25/18 02:49 PM
@cybergene - several years ago I was looking to build a preamp which used LDRs as opposed to say pots to avoid physical contacts.

Some of the challenges were matching the LDRs and drift after a short time. This is not exactly on point but skim some posts as they might address some potential challenges for your DIY piano sensors:

http://www.diyaudioprojects.com/Solid/DIY-Lightspeed-Passive-Attenuator/

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/analog-line-level/80194-lightspeed-attenuator-passive-preamp.html

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/anal...-volume-source-selection-controller.html
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/25/18 04:12 PM
Originally Posted by Bambers
Regardless of the precise details on the sensors it does sound like they're set just a little too low than would be ideal in the hammer's travel.

One could get that impression from our nerdy discussion here, but if you get right down to it, we do actually not have any indication for a less than ideal placement of the sensors, other than the questionable results of our "laboratory experiment". An experiment that was performed by amateurs, with only a rudimentary understanding of piano actions and sensors, in a "heck this is fun, let's try this!" fashion, and that does not even reflect an actual real life piano technique (to my knowledge).

So I would caution against reading too much into our discussions and experiments!
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/25/18 06:40 PM
Absolutely agree here. Don't get caught up in the minuteae, unless that's where you really love to be. What really matters is how the piano responds to your playing.
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/26/18 08:04 AM
Originally Posted by CyberGene
The only picture of AvantGrand action I could find is this:
[Linked Image]

To me it seems there's only one optical shutter on the hammer shanks, in contrast to the NV10 where there are two sensors. And there are the optical sensors beneath the keys as on NU1. That makes me wonder if N-series actually measure real hammer velocity?


I do not see any sensor system beneath the key in that action image. That's not to say it doesn't exist, though...

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/26/18 08:24 AM
James, I think it is the one that's under the first two counter-weights from the left, one that is attached with two screws to the base. But I assumed it must be optical sensors. Maybe it's just a structural thing? However I don't think I've seen something like that on acoustic piano actions.
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/26/18 08:31 AM
CyberGene, ah, you might be right.

When I looked at that image initially, the metal parts that you're referring to appeared to be in line (in the Z-axis) with the wooden base of the action, and not immediately below he key itself.

James
x
Posted By: Galuwen Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/26/18 10:21 AM
Ans Uhr schon One (zentral Sensor Type) seems to be on the Hosmer itself (on top).
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/26/18 10:44 AM
Originally Posted by Galuwen
Ans Uhr schon One (zentral Sensor Type) seems to be on the Hosmer itself (on top).

Not sure what I'm reading here... Mobile auto correct mixed with German? Google translate? Both? confused
Posted By: Bambers Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/26/18 10:59 AM
Not sure why you need more than a single shutter to measure velocity? You just need two adjacent light pick up sensors - these don't need to be big, the sensors that detect computer mice motion back in the days of ball mice (and still do for the wheel) have both sensors in a single lump of plastic.

Originally Posted by JoBert

One could get that impression from our nerdy discussion here, but if you get right down to it, we do actually not have any indication for a less than ideal placement of the sensors, other than the questionable results of our "laboratory experiment". An experiment that was performed by amateurs, with only a rudimentary understanding of piano actions and sensors, in a "heck this is fun, let's try this!" fashion, and that does not even reflect an actual real life piano technique (to my knowledge).

So I would caution against reading too much into our discussions and experiments!


True, but hammer hitting where the string would be and note not sounding doesn't sound entirely right to me even if I doubt it would be particularly noticable, if at all, in real world playing. Might be that the letoff is regulated too high mind..
Posted By: bSharp(C)yclist Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/26/18 02:41 PM
I think you guys should get free NV10s for all the testing you do smile Three official owners here so far? I think this thread will be visited by many who are interested in the NV10 for quite some time.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/26/18 03:32 PM
It's worth noting on the AG action cutout that you also don't see the sensors for the hammer shank either, but Yamaha made it a specific point to include the top metal framing that intercepts the hammer shank "shutter." There's little question that this represents the the optical hammer sensor, though it may not be included in the cutaway. The fact that a metal frame exists below the key suggests the same, though I can't tell from this image whether there's a similar shutter or some other mechanism.
Posted By: Terry Michael Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/26/18 06:39 PM
Gosh, I want to try one out now. I love my CS10 so much though.
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/26/18 06:58 PM
Terry, I really liked my CS11 too. But this is another level. IMHO. Pedal action is more precise. Action is, well just real. I love it. But at my age I just get what I want. Even if i can’t justify the cost.
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/27/18 03:38 PM
Maybe an offtopic, but I found the patent that describes in huge details how exactly the key and hammer sensors in Avant Grand work together:
US5612502A - Keyboard musical instr...from one of hammer motion and key motion

Quote
The monitor on the fingering is broken down into two ways. The first monitoring system includes key sensors respectively provided for the black and white keys of the keyboard, and each of the key sensors detects the associated key moved between a rest position and an end position at more than one point. The detecting points are spaced apart by a predetermined distance, and reports the detections at the points to a data processor forming a part of the tone generator. The data processor calculates a key velocity, and estimates the intensity of the impact and the impact timing.

On the other hand, the second monitoring system includes a plurality of hammer sensors respectively associated with the rotatable hammers. Each of the hammer sensors also has more than one detecting point, and generates a binary data code indicative of the current hammer position. When the hammer is driven for rotation toward an associated string, the hammer sensor detects the hammer at the detecting points during the free rotation, and the data processor estimates the intensity of the impact and the impact timing. After a release of the depressed key, the hammer returns to the home position, and the hammer sensor detects the hammer again. The data processor estimates a timing for sound termination, and the tone generator terminates the audio signal at the estimated timing.

However, the first monitoring system encounters a problem in fidelity of the electronic sounds. This is because of the fact that the key motion represented by the key velocity does not correspond to the hammer motion at all times.

For example, if a player mincingly repeats a key across the detecting points, the acoustic tones are not loud due to the short stroke. However, the key velocity is so large that tone generator tailors the audio signal representing a loud sound. The electronic sound is too loud, and the player wonders the loud electronic sound.


Although the second monitoring system enhances the fidelity, the following problems are encountered in the second monitoring system. The hammer usually turns over an arc longer than that of the associated key, and the hammer sensor can monitor the hammer passing through a smaller part of the arc than the key sensor. In general, if the hammer sensor is closer to the string, the estimated hammer velocity reflects the hammer intensity more exactly. For this reason, the hammer sensors are provided around a hammer stopper where the hammers rebound. In an actual performance, the player sometimes depresses a key immediately after a release at the end position, and the hammer is directed toward the hammer stopper before reaching the rest position. The hammer may pass through one of the detecting points closest to the hammer stopper after the rebound. However, the hammer is missing at the other detecting point, and the data processor can not estimate the intensity and the sound generating timing for the second impact. Thus, the first problem of the second monitoring system is missing hammer position data.

The second problem is the sensor position spaced from the optimum position. As described hereinbefore, the optimum sensor position is around the strings. However, the hammer sensors can not advance beyond the hammer stopper.

The third problem is a misapprehention of the data processor. The hammer sensors tend to chatter due to the impact of the hammer against the hammer stopper. The hammer sensor hardly detects an exact hammer position under the chattering, and misapprehention takes place. In order to avoid the misapprehention, the data processor is expected to execute a complicated processing for exceptions.


The patent includes very nice description of the logical scheme of synchronizing the two sensors, etc. Absolutely fantastic read!

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

As I supposed this is a very intricate coordination and logical flow between the key and hammer sensors in a AG piano. And in bold I've also shown an admittance by Yamaha that the sudden loud problem is irritating and needs addressing wink
Posted By: Bambers Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/27/18 06:13 PM
Nice illustration of how a single shutter can work with two beams/sensors to provide velocity/direction information.
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/27/18 07:02 PM
I wonder if that Yamaha patent is the reason why the Kawai system does not have a key sensor, but instead has a second, differently shaped shutter on the hammer shank, closer to the hinge...
Posted By: Frédéric L Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/27/18 08:31 PM
It is quite clever to emulate 4 sensors on the key with only 2 optical sensors.

I suppose that with a single sensor and a graded flag we can emulate as many sensor as we can, but we need an analogic electronic processing where Yamaha use only digital (on/off) sensors.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/27/18 08:43 PM
So I guess the optical sensors are not "continuous" in the sense of continuous position, but more along the lines of "continuously" sensing/polling?
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/27/18 09:26 PM
The patent is from 1995 and it shows only binary type of shutters. However in another patent there’s a pattern type of shutter with something like triangular patterns that we’ve seen in the NU1. I guess they’ve upgraded the technology.
Posted By: Frédéric L Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/27/18 09:54 PM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
So I guess the optical sensors are not "continuous" in the sense of continuous position, but more along the lines of "continuously" sensing/polling?


Yes, the continuous variable is the timing. But it depends of the electronic architecture : they can scan one or a little set of sensor by one or a little set. Then the precision depends of the scanning freqyency.

When using switches, they usually put them in an array : this decrease the number of wires from the scanning chip. On my Yamaha (2x88 sensors), instead of 176 wires, we have 15 half octavas and 12 sensors per half octavas : 15+12=27 wires. I suppose octical sensors enable the same type of optimisation.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/27/18 11:20 PM
I love clever engineers and clever engineering smile

I imagine there must be some more detailed discussion of hybrid/silent optical sensing elsewhere (especially since this is 20+ year old tech by now), but I feel like I'm getting a lot more out of this thread than I would have guessed!

What would it take to get Kawai James to upload technical details of IHSS? smile
Posted By: ando Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/28/18 12:35 AM
Originally Posted by Gombessa


What would it take to get Kawai James to upload technical details of IHSS? smile

I'd say you'd have to get Liam Neeson to help you get it out of him...
Posted By: jve Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/28/18 07:21 AM
Indeed, it's a fairly old patent, and even if it was new doesn't mean they've actually implemented in a product. Excellent reading though. thanks for posting!

As for Yamaha's sensors, I believe the silent grands use a continuous grey-scale shutter for sensing key position, and a simpler (on/off?) sensor on the hammer. The AvantGrands are probably similar, while the silent uprights and NU1 omit at least the hammer sensor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4M13L7ZtuaA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TVwDXxs8pc
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/28/18 08:19 AM
Are AG-s using the greyscale shutter or the simple one with a hole?
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/28/18 12:42 PM
And here's the Kawai patent from 2010 for their silent grand optical sensing which I guess is the same as in the NV10:
US20100236387A1 - Musical tone control system for grand-type piano

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/28/18 02:15 PM
Wow, Mr. Neeson pulls through wink

What is interesting is that there appears to be three optical sensors at the hammer (51, 52, 53 in the diagrams).

Is it possible that the solid shutter serves as a damper sensor (presuming that pressing the key lifts the hammer a certain amount every time, it would trip the sensor as soon as the key was pressed and stays pressed. Then would you even need a key sensor?) and the windowed shutter with the two sensors gives 3 or possibly 4-5 states as to hammer velocity (both open, window closed, both closed, window open)?
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/28/18 02:55 PM
Gene, you are evolving into a veritable patent sleuth! smile

Originally Posted by Gombessa
Is it possible that the solid shutter serves as a damper sensor (presuming that pressing the key lifts the hammer a certain amount every time, it would trip the sensor as soon as the key was pressed and stays pressed. Then would you even need a key sensor?)

I just read through the patent description, and you are exactly right. There are no sensors on the keys, because sensor 1, with the first shutter (41 in the diagram) is used as the key press/release sensor (just like I speculated in a previous post).

Shutter 1 (#41) is aligned so that it interrupts the photocell very early in the key press and reopens it late in the key release and is used for key press/release detection (release is more important though, see below).
Shutter 2 (#42) is used (together with sensor 3) to determine the direction of the hammer travel (up or down).
Shutter 3 (#43) is used to determine velocity.

It goes roughly like this:

The upper frame edge of the little window of shutter 3 interrupts the photocell of sensor 3 whenever the hammer travels upwards or downwards. Above the frame edge, the photocell is not interrupted (obviously). And below it, it is also not interrupted, because the light can pass through the window. So the duration while the frame edge (with thickness D in the diagram) interrupts the photocell is used to determine velocity.

But that alone would mean that both the hammer going up and down would result in a velocity value.

So there's sensor 2 to avoid that: Imagine a time window for the velocity calculation via sensor 3. That time window starts when sensor 3 is interrupted and ends when sensor 3 is open again. If at the end of this time window the sensor 2 is also interrupted, then the hammer is going up. If instead the sensor 2 is open, then the hammer is going down. Velocity is only calculated (and a tone generated) for the first case, not the second.

Finally, when sensor 1 switches back from interrupted to open, then this is interpreted as a key release (=damper engaged, i.e. usually Note OFF, unless the damper pedal is pressed).
Posted By: Osho Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/28/18 05:16 PM
Wow, you guys are amazing going through patents and these details. I didn't read it all. Is there a 'TL;DR' summary of the discussion?

thanks,
Osho
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/28/18 10:27 PM
I think there are still too many "ifs" to make any real definitive statements, but to me it sounds like:

1. Kawai may not use a key sensor at all, instead using a second, deeper hammer sensor to tell when the key (and thus key damper) is pressed. This also makes the naming of the IHSS technology "Integrated Hammer Sensing System" meaningful. Integrated into the hammer because there's no additional sensing of the keys.

2. Yamaha may be doing the opposite, using a continuous position sensor on the keys, and similar shuttered sensor on the hammers. If so, it seems Yamaha is much more interested in what is happening at the key level.

3. Without knowing the exact positions and tolerances of these sensors, it's probably difficult to draw conclusions about whether one approach is "better." They seem like slightly different ways to accomplish the same goal - accurate sensing of a piano action without requiring physical contact with the moving parts of the action.

4. Kawai in 2010 has much better patent diagrams than Yamaha did in 1997 smile
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/28/18 10:37 PM
Btw, excellent description of the IHSS shutter system JoBert, really easy for the layperson to read!

I wonder if the way IHSS works has some kind of effect on "weird" Virtual Technician settings such as "Touch curve off." I can pretty easily trigger double notes on some keys with this setting, and I suspect it has something to do with needing to trigger a note before or in lieu of the sensors determining a "true velocity."
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 02/28/18 11:20 PM
IMO and this is rather intuition than real facts, yet based on the very complicated algorithm description of the Yamaha patent, I think the Yamaha approach is better and probably more accurate. For example Yamaha's algorithm uses multiple predictions based on the key travel and then the hammer speed that can account for fast repetitions, off-the-jack repetitions, fast rebound of the hammer from the jack (the boxing analogy), etc. Besides, having a separate key sensors will accurately determine if the key is released whereas in Kawai's case the key release is assumed from the hammer rest position which I think might not always be the case. Besides, in the Yamaha patent they state the release velocity is determined by the key release velocity, whereas Kawai is an on/off switch.

Also, it is my intuition that tells me the hammer velocity measured as distance divided by the duration based on two sensor points isn't very precise measure since the second sensor is not yet at the stop rail hence the actual hammer hit speed might not be the same (because it is decelerating after the jack and you need to also know the distance until the rail and I guess that's difficult to calibrate). Just looking at the Yamaha block-diagram it looks so much more complex than the Kawai one. It takes much more small cases into account. The Kawai one is a very intuitive and simple one.

In another patent however Yamaha describe in big details how to install the key sensors because this seems like a very tricky thing and apparently makes the instrument difficult to manufacture and assemble.

So, TLDR, if you ask me and please don't quote me, based on the two patents (that might not have anything to do with the real instruments) I believe the Yamaha one is better smile
Posted By: Osho Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/01/18 01:11 AM
Thank you CyberGene - appreciate you providing a summary.

Osho
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/01/18 06:35 AM
Originally Posted by CyberGene
So, TLDR, if you ask me and please don't quote me, based on the two patents (that might not have anything to do with the real instruments) I believe the Yamaha one is better smile

That's one way to interpret it. You could also say, that the fact that Yamaha's system needs such a complicated algorithm for their hammer/key sensor combo shows, that their system is needlessly convoluted and that the Kawai one is better. wink

Joking. ... I am not qualified to say which one is better or if there even is a "better" one between the two, or if not both system do their jobs equally well. Although I strongly suspect the latter...
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/01/18 07:18 AM
^ I can’t disagree with you! Ultimately, if I were to choose one or the other I would try to play them both. It’s been proven many times so far that what’s on specs and how a piano actually plays are two different stories.
Posted By: ando Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/01/18 07:23 AM
Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by CyberGene
So, TLDR, if you ask me and please don't quote me, based on the two patents (that might not have anything to do with the real instruments) I believe the Yamaha one is better smile

That's one way to interpret it. You could also say, that the fact that Yamaha's system needs such a complicated algorithm for their hammer/key sensor combo shows, that their system is needlessly convoluted and that the Kawai one is better. wink


Maybe it must be complicated because modelling a continuously varying mechanical system is difficult. Maybe being too simple misses too much information? Much like the modelling of the piano's sound - keeping it simple has only produced unsatisfactory piano emulations. Things should be as complex as they need to be, and no more. Anything else is sub-optimal.
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/01/18 07:59 AM
Originally Posted by ando
Things should be as complex as they need to be, and no more. Anything else is sub-optimal.

Sure, but who’s to say where that „need to be“ threshold is? Certainly not we here in the forum, after studying some patents.

Maybe Yamaha has found that sweet spot and Kawai has stopped short? Or maybe Kawai has nailed it and Yamaha shot beyond it into “needlessly complicated” territory? Or maybe both have nailed it, just coming from different directions? I’m just saying that assuming that something must be better just because it is more complex (or less complex) is a fallacy. (That's also why I qualified my statement in the previous post as a joke.)

And we don’t even know for sure how complex each system actually is. We only have the bare patents outlining the concepts, and no information about how these concepts were actually implemented; there are likely levels of complexity in both systems that we aren’t even aware of.

As Gene wrote, when it comes to determining if a system is complex enough or not (or too complex or not), the proof is in the playing (and in such things as durability, longevity, serviceability, etc.) not in studying specs and patents. The latter is just for fun - if you are inclined in that direction of fun.
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/01/18 08:17 AM
Not sure whether my opinion is in any way influential on anyone, but once again, please don't take my opinion as granted. When I say I think Yamaha's way is "better" this is just how it looks to me based on some papers presenting patents. First of all, I didn't understand the Yamaha block-diagram fully because it is overly complex. Whether that's due to limitations or due to it being precise is an open question. Maybe I am confused about the complications and that makes me think it must be better if it is more complex. Once again, do not take my opinion as anything else rather than pure speculation and intuition that might be as wrong as anything not based on real facts.

And BTW, I think the Millenium III action by itself is better than Yamaha because of the ABS carbon parts that allow for tighter tolerances, less weight, (less friction?), consistency across varying environment conditions, durability, etc. This is the same action (bar keys and their length) that they put on their most expensive pianos. Not sure about Yamaha.

BTW, reading the Yamaha patent again, it seems they rely on predetermined time duration values in milliseconds and I don't quite get that. At some point they vaguely mention that "whoever is experienced in that art" (OTOH) will know that different pianos will have different duration constants... That all doesn't make any sense to me and I am wondering whether their overly complex system is due to the relatively slow speed of the CPU-s at the time of the patent?
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/01/18 09:49 AM
It's perhaps worth noting that the Yamaha GrandTouch (the predecessor to the AvantGrand) models were released in 1998, so it's fair to assume the Yamaha patent mentioned above was actually implemented in those models.

I wonder if the AvantGrand utilises the same hammer+key sensing system?

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: Bambers Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/01/18 10:02 AM
Well the nv10 owners can establish the presence or not of key sensors fairly easily given the fall board comes off easily, just lift a key out after smile

As for the relative merits of the systems, the key sensors clearly have their limits given the loud note issues in the upright actions where there isn't a hammer sensor as backup.
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/01/18 10:54 AM
Originally Posted by Bambers
Well the nv10 owners can establish the presence or not of key sensors fairly easily given the fall board comes off easily, just lift a key out after smile

It's not that easy. there's that pesky strip of wood that one would have to unscrew, before one can lift out a key (see below).

From checking between the keys (through the gaps with the help of a flash light) it's obvious that there is no sensor system (or anything else complicated, for that matter) below the keys at least in the area in front of the fall board, below the white/black front parts of the key sticks, where I would expect such a key sensor (and where the Yamaha system has it). I must admit I did not check in detail further back along the key sticks, but don't remember anything that would suggest a sensor. It also wouldn't make sense to have a sensor so far back, close to the balance rail, as the key travel is quite minimal there, and space is more constrained. All in all, after reading the patent and from what I saw in my piano, I'm quite sure that there are no key sensors.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/01/18 11:21 AM
Guys, I apologize for going a bit off topic (patents), but has anyone made comparisons between the on-board piano sample and any given VST running through the Onkyo speakers?
Playability, fidelity, etc.. ? Is it still a compromise, as with the AvantGrand?
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/01/18 11:29 AM
Originally Posted by Pete14
Guys, I apologize for going a bit off topic (patents)
Hmm, or maybe you are bringing this thread back on topic? wink

But sorry, no, I don't have any VSTs, so I haven't tested that.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/01/18 12:01 PM
Thanks for responding, JoBert. If you get a VST down the road, please let us know your impressions as it compares to the on-board piano.
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/01/18 12:38 PM
Pete, the on-board sounds and engine in the NV10 are exactly the same as those in the CA78/98, so your best bet in comparing those to VST-s are the people with the CA-series and there's no doubt those people will be more than the NV10 owners who are currently three smile
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/01/18 01:52 PM
I think Pete was interested to hear how they compare through the NV10's speakers, not in general.
Gombessa uses the Garritan CFX, so maybe he wants to chime in?
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/01/18 01:56 PM
Originally Posted by Pete14
Guys, I apologize for going a bit off topic (patents), but has anyone made comparisons between the on-board piano sample and any given VST running through the Onkyo speakers?
Playability, fidelity, etc.. ? Is it still a compromise, as with the AvantGrand?


I have been trying this combo. I don't have it all figured out, but what I can tell is:

1. There is no noise gate as far as I can tell.

2. I can tell 1 because with VST plugged into Line In, there is more "idle static" from the speakers. The onboard sound engine alone, without line in, is dead quiet.

3. The on board speakers really accentuate "imperfections" or subtle characteristics in the VST (Garritan CFX). I thought I was hearing speaker artifacts but then noticed that the same artifacts were audible with headphones, I just didn't notice them before.

4. There is tremendous control over line in volume on the nv10. There is a physical line in volume knob. There is a line in db attenuator in sound settings on the display. There is the master volume knob. There is your PC/vst volume as well. You can really tune reach one to maximize fidelity and minimize floor/gain noise.

5. The NV10 speakers can go WAY louder than you are able to play the built in sound engine normally. I can play in pianist mode at full volume and it's loud but not like a big grand. But if you pump in line in (or BT audio), you can blast the roof off your house without going anywhere near full volume. Be careful!

6. Through speakers, honestly I didn't get much of a benefit to using the VST over the built in sound engine. There's just so much less to worry about and you don't need to fiddle with volume and gain levels--it just works, and pianist mode sounds great.

So right now, I have headphones outputting VST, and speakers outputting in pianist mode when I used them. And it's just about perfect for me that way.
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/01/18 03:08 PM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
5. The NV10 speakers can go WAY louder than you are able to play the built in sound engine normally. I can play in pianist mode at full volume and it's loud but not like a big grand. But if you pump in line in (or BT audio), you can blast the roof off your house without going anywhere near full volume. Be careful!

That also becomes evident when using the piano to play back the built in demo and piano songs. Those are way louder than what you get when you play the instrument manually (I have noticed this with the P115, then the CA97, and now the NV10 too - my theory is, that the demo songs are always louder so they sound good in a noisy music store).

Also the metronome and background rhythm:

(Actually, this is something that I always wanted to bring to Kawai James' attention, as I already noticed that on the CA97 too, so here goes...)

There is an individual volume control (via the touch screen) for the metronome and the background rhythm. But that volume control has a range that is totally out of sync with the normal pp to ff playing volume of the built in sound engine. More precisely, the metronome/drums are much louder.

The metronome/drums volume control is a slider without markings, but let's just say that it goes from 1 to 20. I find that only the volumes 1, 2 and 3 are usable. When I use the metronome, I always have it at the lowest setting 1. I can imagine that someone else may want to set it to 2, or 3, or maybe even 4 (although that would already be headache inducing for me), but any louder setting is totally overkill, it sounds like someone is whacking your head with a stick. I tried to see how far it goes and never even reached more than ~10 (let alone 20!) before it was simply too loud to bear (and I started to worry about the speakers).
That becomes even more pronounced with the drums: You can use maybe the volume levels 1-3, maybe 4, but anything beyond that totally drowns out your own playing. Anything beyond 7 or so becomes very, very loud, and again I stopped my tests around 10 or 11, when the drums where so loud I did again fear for the speakers (and the roof wink). And then I was only at 50% volume! I cannot imagine going even further!

I wonder why this is so? And (@Kawai James) if not in a future firmware update, it would be possible to bring this volume slider more into line with the actual sound engine volume (so that 20 is "almost unbearably loud" and 1 is "almost not noticeable" and 10-11 is "comparable to mf playing", or something like that...).

(Of course I am aware that the absolute volume of the metronome/drums depends on the master volume knob, so I could turn down the master volume, and then I would still have headroom left to make the metronome/drums louder, without blowing the speakers, but what would be the sense in that? Because then I would at the same time make the main piano engine much quieter, so that it would then be drowned out by the metronome/drums.)
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/01/18 03:21 PM
JoBert, I agree. The metronome comes on very loud. On the CA97 and the CS11 this was also the case. It is really annoying. Could it be a simple fix?
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/01/18 03:35 PM
Gombessa and JoBert, you guys are great. Thank you so much for all the detailed info.
I must say, the AvantGrand does not have a physical input volume knob, never mind a software-based option or the ability to make note-per-note changes (volume/intonation). So, even if the on-board approach is more practical than running VST’s (permanently) on the Novus, it still beats the AvantGrand as a controller. Why is the AvantGrand so bare bones? (rhetorical). Are they really telling us that it’s so good that you don’t need any further adjustments (other than reverb); because if that’s the case, they are dead wrong. It could use some help in the form of a more robust effects engine and overall compatibility with third party inventions (VST’s, etc.).
I did not experience the noise-gate, but others have; there’s also the crescendo effect; you can’t even save the few edits it allows -like reverb- because, once again, the default sound is so good that any changes you make are not worthy of becoming a preset, never mind “the -default- preset.”
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/02/18 12:33 PM
I guess this is not really on topic, but it is a consequence of me getting the NV10, so it is at least related:

Today I sold my CA97, to a private buyer. I got a tad above 60% of the price that I myself paid back in December 2015, which I think is not bad. It certainly lessens the impact the NV10 had on my bank acount... grin
Posted By: botski Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/02/18 07:39 PM
I am in the market for a digital piano. I am an intermediate player with a 100 year old Steinway that is in need of serious repair. Our house is small with wooden floors which amplifies the Steinway so much that my old sensitive ears are not enjoying the sound. I have always disliked the action of digital pianos until a few months ago when at a friend's concert at a music store, I sat down to a Kawai and instantly fell in love with the action. I found out I was playing the CS-11. Loved it! But then heard that Kawai was releasing the Novus which is supposed to have an even BETTER action. So last week I went back to the same store to try it out.

The action is extremely lovely. I definitely felt like I was playing an acoustic instrument. There was none of that sluggishness that seems to be the norm for low to mid range digital pianos. The sound was powerful and convinced me that I was playing a real piano. I didnt do any overtone tests to see how accurate the unit is (On the high end Roland you can hold down keys silently, and then hit a key normally and then hear the overtones of the "strings" you are holding down, which is a+ cool in my book). The one thing I hated about the unit and which caused a fracas between my wife and I is the bleep bleeping demo songs. They are so bleeping loud. At one point I had the volume of the piano VERY low to see how it would sound if I were playing late at night. I had my head up by the speakers to admire the sound, and unknowing to me my wife fired off a demo of the Chopin Polonaise and it nearly blew my head off. Pissed me off and my reaction caused a "marriage moment". I instantly hated the Novus. I am befuddled why Kawai chose to make their demo so ridiculously loud on such a beautiful nuanced piece of engineering. Any kid who comes over to play it is going to find the demo screen within 10 seconds and subsequently [censored] off everyone in the house.

Before this incident, I was going back and forth between the CS-11 and the Novus to see if I could live with the touch of the CS-11. I think I could, especially since the price is $5000 cheaper than the Novus. I never tried the demo songs on the CS-11 to see if Kawai decided they needed to be as in-your-face as the Novus. I contacted Kawai about this and lo and behold the person told me that Japan is aware of this and **might** fix it in a firmware upgrade. In the meantime, I am going to audition the high end Roland pianos at the shop and see how they compare to the CS-11.
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/02/18 07:55 PM
botski,

You will find that the demos are just as loud on the CS11.
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/02/18 08:14 PM
botski, that's funny because only four posts above I wrote about the loud demo songs. smile
The Kawai CA97 has comparatively loud demo songs too, so I assume that the CS11 (which is essentially the CA97 in a nicer cabinet) has them too. But my previous Yamaha also had loud demo songs and I remember a thread here about another model (don't remember which, but not Kawai, I think) where a user complained about the same. My theory is, that this is by design (from many manufacturers) so that the demo songs can be heard in a noisy shop.

BTW, the Novus does have the string resonance (what you called overtones).

When thinking about CS11 vs. Novus, you should be aware not only about the difference in the action, but also that sound-engine wise, the CS11 is already one generation behind.
That previous generation consisted of CA67, CA97, CS8 and CS11. Those four all have the same action and sound engine and differ mostly in cabinet and speaker configuration.
The current generation is CA78 and CA98 (which have replaced the CA67 and CA97). The current generation replacements for the CS8 and CS11 have not yet been released. This current generation still has the same action, but a newer sound engine.
So sound engine wise, the CS11 is actually behind the CA78 and CA98 (and the Novus).
Now the Novus stands a bit on the side, as it has a different action (an actual acoustic grand action), but regarding the sound engine, it has the same as the current generation CA78/CA98. So its sound engine is also one generation newer than the CS11's.
Or to be more precise, the Novus/CA78/CA98 actually have two sound engines: A new one (the newest that Kawai currently has) and also still the previous one, i.e. the same as the previous generation (CA67/CA97/CS8/CS11) had.

Confused yet? crazy
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/02/18 08:22 PM
Yes, we were just discussing how loud the speakers are on this thread smile

It's not just the demo songs. If you use the line-in or bluetooth audio feature on the Novus, you'll quickly notice that those can be extremely loud as well. Kawai actually provides separate volume sliders for bluetooth and line-in, though I don't know if any of that impacts demo songs (I've never tried any on the Novus).

The new sound engine on the Novus (and CA78/98) focuses heavily on improved "overtones" (otherwise known as string resonance). It's now modeled for every key independently, and you can hear the difference by striking a quick staccato note. There will be a ringing from the upper octave (which has no dampers) as the note decays, which you won't hear on the older sound engine (the one in the CS11).

I definitely agree that you should try all the candidate pianos before making your choice. The Novus is fantastic and a few of us here clearly love ours, but there are a lot of great digital pianos out there deserving of consideration.
Posted By: botski Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/02/18 08:55 PM
Jo Bert, I read your post about the loudness right after I posted my message. I am an electrical engineer who dabbles in micro controllers and firmware and I would have felt dirty releasing a firmware that overrides the volume control set by the user. I cant believe that the metronome is too loud for 80% of its settings! It's like Kawai has 2 groups involved with sound - one group is privy to DSP programming, audio reproduction, intricate algorithms, perfection. The other group rides Harleys, beats their chest yelling "LOUDER!" while maximizing the rotation of every potentiometer they can find.

Thanks for the info on all of the other models. I loved the look of the CS11, its "looks like a piano" frame, how the buttons can be hidden with a cover. I will dig into the sound differences of the other models. I dont think the shop had a CA78 or CA98.

I wonder if the demos of the Novus can be password protected?
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/02/18 09:17 PM
Okay, so you will pass on the Novus because the demo songs are too loud? That’s a first.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/02/18 10:03 PM
It's worth noting the NV10 has a "Speaker volume" toggle that can be set to "Normal" or "Low" in Settings. That might help.
Posted By: Osho Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/03/18 03:08 AM
Pretty much all piano manufacturers have boosted demo songs volume. It is just a marketing necessity in a piano shop floor. Humans perceive louder volume as a 'better sound'. This is just like ads being louder in television shows than the actual show.

It doesn't make sense to discount a piano based on the volume of the demo songs. After the first few days, I don't think I have ever really played any of the demo songs of Kawai CA-67.

Osho
Posted By: Hendrik42 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/04/18 01:32 PM
Regarding metronome volume, you can set a different volume and save that and you're done.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/04/18 03:18 PM
Wait! The metronome volume is also too loud?
That’s it, Kawai; you’ve now gone too far for me. First you give as a great action (per most accounts), a brand-new sound engine, and a damper mechanism, and now you have the nerve to crank up the volume on the demos and metronome!
How am I supposed to get through my daily two-hour demo practice if the volume is simply too loud?
I regret to say this, but I’m also gonna have to pass on the Novus!
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/04/18 03:21 PM
I tried to save the metronome settings. I am aware you could do that on the CN35. (I used to have one that I traded in for a CA97). But I can not see how to do that on the NV10.
Originally Posted by Hendrik42
Regarding metronome volume, you can set a different volume and save that and you're done.
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/04/18 03:32 PM
Originally Posted by Pete14
Wait! The metronome volume is also too loud?
That’s it, Kawai; you’ve now gone too far for me. First you give as a great action (per most accounts), a brand-new sound engine, and a damper mechanism, and now you have the nerve to crank up the volume on the demos and metronome!
How am I supposed to get through my daily two-hour demo practice if the volume is simply too loud?
I regret to say this, but I’m also gonna have to pass on the Novus!



Botski, The CS11 is a really nice hybrid, and about half the cost of the NV10. I know a shop in LA that will sell you my old one (9 months old) for likely $3000 or less. Because while it is nice, the Novus is exceptional.
Posted By: jokke Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/04/18 09:32 PM
Alright. Had a chance to try out the Novus NV10 myself yesterday at JustMusic Berlin. Here's my subjective account as a pianist solidly in the "amateur" category:

I started with the Novus NV10 and headphones. I was visiting Germany and didn't have my own headphones, which was a shame, because the phones plugged in (and there was a placard stating hope that you play with headphones, due to maybe 30 instruments in the same room) were plasticky and sounded quite poor. Still, initial impressions:

* More realistic sound texture in the Pianist mode than on my CS-11. It felt I could control the instrument better as well.
* Nice general feel to keyboard, definitely different than the GF-II, and very much like an acoustic. The keys have a bit "bounce" (hard to describe exactly, but they return to position more organically than on GF) in them, which makes them different from the Grand Feel. I don't play regularly with acoustic grands, but to my experience, feel was on par with entry level Kawai and Yamaha grands
* It was easier to bring out the melody than with any digital I've tried out.
* Action was to my amateur hands (3 years in the hobby) a bit hard to control, which I'd say is mostly a good thing -- more room for improvement that would likely translate to better control on acoustics as well.
* Trills were bit of a disapointment. The action was a bit on the heavy side, and even damper pedal bottomed, I couldn't immediately reach the speed I was hoping. Better than CS-11, but not by a huge margin.
* Pedal was harder to control than on CS-11. I had somewhat rigid shoes on, so this might have impacted it somewhat. On CS-11, there is some sound left when raising the pedal halfway, here it seemed to die at the moment pedal was 20-30 % up, causing audible cutting out of resonance before I got the next notes in playing a familiar song. Might be something that needs adjustment into, or tinkering with the Virtual Assistant resonance settings.

JustMusic also had Yamaha AvantGrand N2 and N3x on display, so I took advantage and immediately switched to N2 after the Novus. Compared to the Novus:

* Sound was audibly worse (not as realistic and lively). The age of N2 samples does show, and switching from Novus it was like returning to a 2010 digital from an actual acoustic. Not sure if I'd want to spend 2500e more on N2 than Novus to get such a thin sound.
* Action was lighter. Not worse or better, mostly just different. But trills were easier, much closer to the acoustic grand I'm comparing my CS11 (and Novus) against. On small minus side, initial resistance of the action was a bit "rubbery"
* Headphone amplification was obviously more limited, they had better-looking (and likely higher impedance) headphones on the AvantGrands, and I had to turn volume knob to full, and still was somewhat lacking in volume.

Especially considering the price, I'd say the Novus has a definite price-performance advantage against N2, with more modern and realistic sound, and comparable action feel. On a discount or lightly used N1, especially with VST like Pianoteq augmenting the sound, it would be a tougher call, though.

I then proceeded to N3x for a while. The sounds were definitely a lot better than on N2, and there was less of a difference against the Kawai (still, I'd not say the N3x having an advantage). From previous experience I know the sound production system on the N3x is excellent, so my main problem with the N3x is the high price and form factor, it's not an option for me currently. If I'd get and AvantGrand, I'd either try to get a bargain on N1/N2 models, or wait for N2x/N1x.

Returning back to Novus NV10, I played a bit more. After the AGs, there was an initial "oh my this is bouncy and hard to control" -feeling, but it faded after a minute or so, the actions are just somewhat different. The sound on the other hand felt more realistic than even the N3x. I asked the clerk if I could play without headphones, and tried the onboard audio system as well. The difference to the small headphones was audible and positive, the NV10 sounded very good. Bass felt better and more defined (probably the Pianist mode, not the audio system) than on my CS11. On the other hand, it did feel like the sound is coming from speakers, not the soundboard, so the CS11 may have some advantages as well, But the Pianist mode sound was very good, so I'd say the NV10 is a step up from CS11 also without headphones, but with some room to improve (waiting for NV20 smile ).

I couldn't stay for more than an hour (had a non-pianist friend waiting for me with nothing to do), so I did not try out the UI or other features of the NV10 more. My conclusions from this first hands-on were:

* Great, acoustic like touch surpassing digitals other than AvantGrand series
* Different feel than the AG series, both with their pros and cons, much like Kawai and Yamaha acoustics I'd wager.
* It's not "oh my god this is on par with a Steinway D" -level experience, so I feel there's still risk that I would at some point want a better (and more expensive) piano
* Pianist mode offers superior sound to N1/N2 and only N3x comes close (it's different), I'd have to play them both longer to say which is ultimately nicer.
* Pedal felt harder to control than on CS11, but could be due to shoes
* Price-wise, I felt that it's priced spot-on, making N2 feel overpriced and twice as expensive N3x a hard sell with only obvious benefit being the better sound system (and some may prefer the Yamaha action).

If I had to get a new digital right now, I'd pick the Novus. Still, I think I need to wait for one to arrive to Finland to try it out a second time to make up my mind if it's worth 9000e minus what I get from my CS11 to upgrade.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/05/18 12:20 AM
Thanks for posting your thoughts Jokke, glad to see a lot more people are able to get their hands on an NV10 to play!

My initial thoughts (and my lasting impressions after about 3 weeks now) are really in line with yours. I've definitely played a few large acoustic grands with actions I've preferred to the Novus, but most of those are literally an order of magnitude higher cost.

I did want to comment about the pedal (namely the sustain). I've always found that "regular" DPs tend to have unrealistically "perfect" pedaling. They have smooth travel and many levels of half-pedaling at precise points in that travel. Real grands, IMO, are all over the place. Some have extremely shallow travel, actuation pressure varies greatly, and the "engagement point" can be very different. In this sense, the NV10 is just like any other grand, it has its own feel, and you just get used to it as you play. FWIW, the pedal response is fairly notchy and stiff, which is also pretty realistic IMO. As with other Kawai DPs, there are some pedal settings you can adjust (mainly, where the engagement point is).

I definitely felt that the NV10 is more than a fair match against the AvantGrands, and other than the dated sound engine in the N1/N2, anyone comparing the two lines will likely end up making a decision based on personal preference (or in the N3X case, the form factor).
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/05/18 02:52 AM
Hello Tom,

Originally Posted by TomLC
I tried to save the metronome settings. I am aware you could do that on the CN35. (I used to have one that I traded in for a CA97). But I can not see how to do that on the NV10.


Metronome settings can be stored to a Favorite memory. I just tried setting the Metronome volume to a very low level, with 1/4 beat, then storing this to a Favorite memory. When I select that memory, the Metronome settings are recalled. The first (top-left) Favorite can be selected automatically at startup using the 'Startup with Favorite' function in the Favorites menu.

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,
James
x

Posted By: Kawai James Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/05/18 02:59 AM
jokke, thank you very much for sharing your thoughts on the NV10.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/08/18 11:16 AM
You guys, I need my Novus fix. Anything would do (even criticism): the screen is too loud, it should have 97 keys, it sounds too much like a piano, etc..
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/08/18 11:41 AM
Originally Posted by Pete14
You guys, I need my Novus fix. Anything would do (even criticism): the screen is too loud, it should have 97 keys, it sounds too much like a piano, etc..


I, too, have downed a fifth of whiskey in one evening before. That screen would be absolutely blaring in my head.
Posted By: PianoZac Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/08/18 02:05 PM
Hahaha sorry about this issues guys grin

On a serious note, while it’s not a Novus NV10, I am enjoying the heck out of my MP7SE. I can see a Kawai Hybrid in my future when school is behind me. Congrats to all of you who have taken delivery of such a fine instrument.
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/08/18 03:07 PM
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Hello Tom,

Originally Posted by TomLC
I tried to save the metronome settings. I am aware you could do that on the CN35. (I used to have one that I traded in for a CA97). But I can not see how to do that on the NV10.


Metronome settings can be stored to a Favorite memory. I just tried setting the Metronome volume to a very low level, with 1/4 beat, then storing this to a Favorite memory. When I select that memory, the Metronome settings are recalled. The first (top-left) Favorite can be selected automatically at startup using the 'Startup with Favorite' function in the Favorites menu.

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,
James
x


Yes James, this helps. I don't need to metronome other than to practice anyway.

Thanks, Tom
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/09/18 09:00 PM
It's taken me a bit longer than JoBert, but sitting down at the NV10 this morning I finally started to feel like I was coming back to playing my "primary" piano, rather than one of several actions I play on regularly. It's a really nice feeling.

Also, I loaded up my midi monitor and have some (mildly?) interesting facts to report:

1. The midi range from the NV10 is from 1 to about 121. Which is just about in line with most DPs, maybe a little better.

2. I can only play to a midi velocity of about 100, and that's playing with great force for me. In order to get higher than that, I have to literally slam my fingers onto the piano and I often hit 2-3 other keys inadvertently. I would never play it that loud, and would rather turn down the velocity range on my VST first.

3. The softest I could get is MIDI veocity 5. If I play ppp, it ranges from 5-10.

4. "Silently" playing a key results in a MIDI velocity of 1. No matter how "hard" I silently trigger a note, including trying to "play off the jack." This does seem to support the theory that the IHSS setup is calculating hammer velocity prior to the letoff.

5. Key release always results in a MIDI velocity of 76 (I think). No matter how softly of quickly I release the note, as soon as it passes the key sensor, it's always a release velocity of 76.

6. The damper pedal seems to give a full, fairly linear range from 0-127, changing in steps of 3-5 normally. One thing that's different from my MP11 is that CFX Grand will play the pedal noise "clunk" exactly at 127, no sooner and no later. On my MP11, it played that annoying clunk every time I changed the pedal position. I have no idea which is actually "correct" behavior, but I like it better the NV10 way because it's annoying and I have a real pedal to make its own real sounds.

4-5 in particular got me thinking about a couple of things. First, does the keybed send more information than what is encoded into MIDI? This goes to some of the prior discussion about Pianist mode possibly using more information from the keybed.

Second, does this result in "limitations" such as key-off noise or key release sampling? I've NEVER heard anyone talk about this feature as being something important (as opposed to this forum's apparent obsession with string resonance), but in any case, I'm not sure if the NV10 supports variable key-off effects (I can't hear anything different, nor do I feel I'm missing anything).
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/09/18 10:10 PM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
It's taken me a bit longer than JoBert, but sitting down at the NV10 this morning I finally started to feel like I was coming back to playing my "primary" piano, rather than one of several actions I play on regularly. It's a really nice feeling.

thumb

I didn't do any such detailed MIDI measurements as you did, just played around with it for a short while, but generally, I can confirm that I got similar readings as you did. I think I remember I managed to hit velocity 125 once (also not while playing, but only with a forced "hit"). And I never looked at note off velocity.
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/10/18 12:15 AM
I apologize for changing the subject..


Just wondering; Other than a little electricity, why turn the piano off? Is it better for the system to boot up every day, maybe several times a day?
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/10/18 12:27 AM
Electrically speaking, it's never "good" to power/depower a device repeatedly, as it causes spikes and surges, which components are built to handle, but eventually (years? decades?) causes completely anticipated and natural failures. Balancing that, some components are prone to heat from remaining on, some like solid state memory may degrade after (many) years... one issue is that the LCD backlight LEDs will suffer some wear, and if you don't use the display auto-blackout you'll likely see some image persistence burn-in after a while.

All in all, it's not worth stressing. It's 100% fine to turn it on and off when you play. And if you happen to leave it on day and night sucking up its rated 60w drain, it's not the end of the world.
Posted By: Galuwen Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/10/18 08:53 AM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Electrically speaking, it's never "good" to power/depower a device repeatedly, as it causes spikes and surges, which components are built to handle, but eventually (years? decades?) causes completely anticipated and natural failures. Balancing that, some components are prone to heat from remaining on, some like solid state memory may degrade after (many) years... one issue is that the LCD backlight LEDs will suffer some wear, and if you don't use the display auto-blackout you'll likely see some image persistence burn-in after a while.

All in all, it's not worth stressing. It's 100% fine to turn it on and off when you play. And if you happen to leave it on day and night sucking up its rated 60w drain, it's not the end of the world.


On the case of the new CA series and as they share the same technical buildup maybe also for the NV10 taking the piano off the power supply does not work for me because after 2 weeks of doing so it lost all internal setups and I could not store anything permanently any more (everything was lost after turning it off). So I connected it over 24h, stored everything and it worked again.

Alexander
Posted By: Hendrik42 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/10/18 12:30 PM
So Just Music in Hamburg now has a Novus NV10. Did not have too much time with it as my younger one wanted to go to the drums soon (first floor, do visit, its awesome) so I concentrated on the pedals, because I could not at Musikmesse.

It is not hard at all to notice the pedal mechanism and its effect on the action. Quite impressive, as it should be. But one needs to be a better player than I to say if this informs the piano performance significantly. I am just starting using the pedal at all :-)
Posted By: newer player Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/10/18 03:19 PM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Electrically speaking, it's never "good" to power/depower a device repeatedly, as it causes spikes and surges, which components are built to handle, but eventually (years? decades?) causes completely anticipated and natural failures.


For me the larger problem has been surges from poor quality source electricity. I've had lousy electricity in Japan, Southern Europe, and NYC so this is not an "isolated" problem.

You should get a good-quality power filter for expensive electronics now. That may protect against a major surge. And by normalizing electricity to your electronics, potentially boost lifespan. Cheap insurance. I use Schneider-APC boxes but there are plenty of good brands.

Also, during a thunderstorm, you should unplug the piano (and your computers) from the wall (and disconnect any other cables from the piano). No consumer surge protector is 100%, especially when lightning is near.

Originally Posted by Gombessa
All in all, it's not worth stressing. It's 100% fine to turn it on and off when you play. And if you happen to leave it on day and night sucking up its rated 60w drain, it's not the end of the world.


The Kawai almost certainly uses a class-D amplifying scheme, and those consume very little power when you are not playing. Regardless, for the environment & your wallet, I would be:

- using the "Auto Power Off" setting

- Unplugging when on holiday and during storms / flickering lights (depsite the possilibily of losing presets per Galuwen above.)
Posted By: Galuwen Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/10/18 03:44 PM
It's I figured out not a problem to unplug my piano during thunderstorm or a day. There seems to be some sort of battery buffet that runs dry fat on my new CA98 (around a week or two).
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/10/18 03:58 PM
I like to leave it on all of the time and just sit down and play. It has also become my preferred speaker system for playing from iTunes. We have circuit breakers in case of a power surge and it is plugged into a power strip. So it sounds like it won't hurt the piano to leave it plugged in and on.

Unless I hear from Kawai that it is a problem that is.

Thank you for the comments, guys.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/10/18 04:16 PM
This is probably old news for those familiar with Virtual Technician, but I now know how the half pedal response setting works.

At lowest setting (1), the pedal activates at about 10% and maxes out at about 60% of pedal travel. Anything outside of this range is dead space.

At highest seeing, the pedal activates at about 40% travel and maxes out at about 90%. For some reason I had always thought the pedal range scales, but it actually shifts.
Posted By: Aspiring Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/10/18 08:12 PM
I hope I am correct in thinking this thread is headquarters for NV10...

How reactive is the NV10 to changing room humidity?

I'm sure it's less reactive than my acoustic piano, but by how much? Does NV10 need special protection during the winter when the air dries out because the furnace is on? How about during the steamy days of summer? I don't have air conditioning, but I installed an additional door to limit air circulation and I keep the windows closed.

This is just NE Ohio, neither Finland nor the Amazon rain forest. Still, we do have our seasons and NV10 has those wooden keys.

Thanks!.
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/10/18 08:44 PM
Originally Posted by Aspiring
How reactive is the NV10 to changing room humidity?

Nobody really knows yet, because there is no data. The NV10 is so new, it has been in people's homes for less than two months. Not to speak of seasons.

However, some food for thought:

As I understand it, there are two main problems with humidity and pianos:
An overall humidity that is too high over longer periods can cause swelling, which, especially around pins and joints, can cause sticky/uneven keys. Many parts of the NV10 action are plastic/composite materials that are not impacted by a high humidity. But theoretically the wooden keysticks and the (partially) wooden damper weight mechanism could be impacted in that way. My guess is however, that the humidity would have to be severely high over a long period.
But the most common humidity problem with pianos is not caused by the absolute humidity, but by frequent humidity swings. Such swings cause the piano to not be able to hold a tuning. This does of course not apply at all. It's simply not a problem for a digital piano.
And, even though we have no data about the NV10 yet, I do not remember reports from Yamaha AvantGrand owners (where the action is fully wooden, i.e. potentially even more affected) about problems caused by humidity. Unless my information about that is wrong, the NV10 should have even less problems.

In short: I don't think there will be a problem in a normal home (but that is of course only my speculation).

EDIT: Additional "data" on how much the wooden keys on their balance pins would be affected (i.e. probably very little, if at all): The wooden keysticks of the Grand Feel actions (and predecessors) as used in the CA/CS series of Kawai are of very similar construction (with balance pins and all). I've never heard of humidity related problems with those either (of course there may be some problems, but they don't seem to be common).
Posted By: Smaug Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/10/18 09:21 PM
I spent about an hour yesterday in an empty showroom with the NV10 and a Yamaha N3X next to it. Overall I very much liked the NV10. I found it a very expressive instrument and greatly enjoyed playing it.
My major conclusions were:
  • The SK-EX is a lovely sounding piano sample. It provides a more refined timbre and a good contrast to the EX and SK-5. I also greatly enjoyed the SK-5. Using the older EX sample I could get a very similar playing experience to the Yamaha.
  • The top octave is shrill but the rest is evenly balanced. The speaker system is adequately loud and it is strange that the demos can go much louder.
  • I wish the screen would switch off rather than just go dark grey. I was still distracted by it.
  • The piano sounds better with the music stand up than down, presumably because the stand partly covers the speakers. I would prefer the opposite but I can live with leaving the stand up.
  • I preferred the action on the N3X as the Kawai felt a bit looser, but I would still happily take the Kawai. If the N3X was 5000 Fr cheaper it would be a close call.
  • For an instrument of this quality I find it inexcusable not to include una corda samples. Softening the volume and timbre is a very poor substitute.

Well done Kawai! This is a serious contender to replace my very trusty but ageing MP8. Still, going back home to my MP8 with Vintage D showed that older technology can still give you a very musically expressive instrument.
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/11/18 01:16 PM
Thank you, Hendrik42 and Smaug, for posting your impressions. It's always interesting to read all opinions.

Also, since that other thread has already sunk down a few pages, for people who read through this thread here and haven't seen it already, I wanted to point out a post by terminaldegree, about his Novus NV10 review for the Spring 2018 issue of the Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2719391/piano-buyer-kawai-novus-nv10-review.html
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/11/18 02:23 PM
The Novus action has been described as being “loose” when compared to the N3X. Does this mean lighter/bouncier? Or does it mean there’s too much side movement (wiggling)?
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/12/18 02:09 PM
Originally Posted by Pete14
The Novus action has been described as being “loose” when compared to the N3X. Does this mean lighter/bouncier? Or does it mean there’s too much side movement (wiggling)?


Mine doesn't feel "loose".
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/12/18 03:42 PM
I have no idea what the OP of the description meant, but mine has an absolutely normal amount of side to side play in the keys. It's less than some pianos, more than others. I actually took some video a few weeks back to check this, and I don't think there's anything out of the ordinary here.
Posted By: David B Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/12/18 05:00 PM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
I have no idea what the OP of the description meant, but mine has an absolutely normal amount of side to side play in the keys. It's less than some pianos, more than others. I actually took some video a few weeks back to check this, and I don't think there's anything out of the ordinary here.


How is it compared to your MP11. I feel like my MP11SE has too much side to side play in the keys compared with two Kawai acoustics I have access to.

It's the one thing I really don't like about the MP11SE. Is the NV10 more like an acoustic or the MP11 in lateral key play? Thanks.

God Bless,
David
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/12/18 05:36 PM
Honestly, they're about the same, maybe marginally less play on the NV10.

On the MP11, out of all the white keys, there were 1-2 that I could get to slightly rub/contact if I pushed them together (there's never any key to key contact during regular playing). I haven't noticed any keys that can contact each other on the NV10, but I wouldn't be surprised if individual unit tolerances varied one way or another.

There can be significantly less side to side play on big expensive 7+ft grands, but I don't think that's really a fair comparison against either DP.
Posted By: David B Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/12/18 06:40 PM
Originally Posted by Gombessa


There can be significantly less side to side play on big expensive 7+ft grands, but I don't think that's really a fair comparison against either DP.


I hear you. It's not something that impacts the way the MP11SE sounds when playing, but it's a mental distraction to me. Some keys have more play than others and might come to rest with a bigger space between them, and since I have to look at the keys a lot when I play, I notice it.

I think the NV10 is a valid comparison to a Kawai acoustic action since they are essentially the same. I would be surprised if their was any discernible difference in overall key movement between the two.

God Bless,
David
Posted By: Smaug Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/13/18 07:28 PM
If you're referring to my post above:
"I preferred the action on the N3X as the Kawai felt a bit looser, but I would still happily take the Kawai."

It's not "loose" but compared to the N3X it had slightly more side-to-side play.
Posted By: jve Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/13/18 07:47 PM
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Are AG-s using the greyscale shutter or the simple one with a hole?

Sorry about the delay in answering. It appears that the AGs indeed have the continuous greyscale sensor under the keys, as well as a simpler sensor on the hammers, i.e. same as the silent grands.

From Yamaha's marketing material:
"Optical hammer sensors with two-point detection are installed on the hammer shanks, accurately detecting the velocity and timing at which the hammers move. The ability to monitor key and hammer movement together adds extra precision to keystroke detection and sound reproduction"

http://forum.pianoworld.com//gallery/42/full/9671.jpg

The greyscale shutter looks identical to the one in this short clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TVwDXxs8pc
Posted By: jokke Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/15/18 09:07 PM
Originally Posted by Smaug
If you're referring to my post above:
"I preferred the action on the N3X as the Kawai felt a bit looser, but I would still happily take the Kawai."

It's not "loose" but compared to the N3X it had slightly more side-to-side play.


I had the same impression, switching straight from N3X to N2 and then NV10. Slightly more sideways movement, but as said above, well within the range I'd expect from acoustics, and not in any way significant, just that the AGs seemed a bit "stiffer".
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/15/18 11:31 PM
See, now you guys have me wiggling keys side to side every time I sit down at a piano smile
Posted By: bSharp(C)yclist Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/15/18 11:44 PM
I can say the same, the Kawai felt like it had more sideway movement compared to the N2 and the Yamaha baby grand I practice on during lessons. That doesn't make it bad though. I felt the same sideway movement on the Bösendorfer I played on once with the school. I didn't quite have $170,000 to buy it though.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/16/18 12:12 AM
I imagine there are elements of individual variation, and also design tolerance. Interestingly, the 7ft Bosie I play has *really* tight side to side tolerance (but buttery action), while a slightly older Yamaha C3 is on the looser side, and the only acoustic grand that I can get keys to rub together easily if I press them together (which isn't a real issue of course).

My NV10 is closer to the Yamaha than the Bos in terms of play, but none of the keys will contact each other on the Novus.

And yeah, what I would give for enough dough to take the Bosendorfer home!
Posted By: terminaldegree Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/16/18 01:49 AM
Pretty soon, you're going to want to invest in technician's key bushing tools... There's a lot of parts of an acoustic piano action where you're trying to strike a balance between the "right" amount of freedom of movement vs. friction. Key bushings too tight = a problem. Key bushings too loose = a problem.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/16/18 02:21 AM
Is it difficult to get into a loose bushing? You know, to make it not so loose.
Posted By: terminaldegree Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/16/18 02:48 AM
Yes, it's more difficult than easing a tight bushing with what are called key easing pliers, though. There are also (I'm an apprentice, not an expert, as a technician) more or less "correct" ways of dealing with loose key bushings, which are either more labor intensive, or quick fixes (that may not be the best long-term solutions). Pianists do have some degree of personal preferences, but it's just a minor characteristic in the overall "feel" of an action, and not a specific aspect that is sought after.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/16/18 10:21 AM
I prefer easing my way into a tight bushing, but I understand some prefer a loose bushing.
As you say, there’s a varying degree of personal preferences amongst pianists; so I ask, who here is into loose bushing?
Posted By: Bambers Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/16/18 11:12 AM
*Snicker*

You can get lubes (teflon/PTFE based usually) that may provide an optimal lack of both side to side play and friction.

Presumably that kind of thing, amongst all the other regulation tricks, are a big part of the way six figure 7ft+ pianos feel better despite using nominally identical action parts.

For bushings that are too loose it's typically a case of removing and replacing with thicker felt. There's YouTube videos on such matters. Alternatively I recall a slightly bodgy trick is to twist the pins a little as these are usually not circular but a little elliptical, this twisting them increases the effective width.
Posted By: HonzaC Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/16/18 04:32 PM
I may the only one in the entire pianoworld, but I have to say - for me Kawai Novus was big disappointment. Finally I decided to purchase Yamaha N2 over Kawai Novus (yes, "obsolete" piano with worse samples for many).

The Novus action is really excellent, as expected. Cabinet from my point of view is slightly ugly, with coffee-cup-holder like speakers on the top (making it impossible to place scores on the top of the piano unless you sacrifice the sound:-)) The control screen - I was expecting better than their low end-line control interface, and the touchscreen resolution and response is like the one of mid class phones 5+ years ago (that may tell about production cost cuts in outsourced parts..). Screen at time I tried still did not have sleep mode, not sure if they updated software yet.

Novus has also plenty of sounds and functions, which BY MY OPINION would not be necessary. Digital piano with real key action may be of interrest for serious pianists, no synthetizer mixing guys (no offense please) for whose other great products are on the market. I do believe that this is exactly why Yamaha did have success with Avant Grand series - neat cabinets, now bells and whistles, just basic things, but great key action, GREAT reponsiveness, great sound field projection (was Onkyo sleeping designing Novus, where is the HIFI??).

Regarding the headphones experience as well as speaker output, my feeling in my refference flat rated headphones was too much base (!), to the extent which made the sound muddy and not defined enough, lacking definition and clarity. Same with speakers, bass and mid section was overfilling the piano cabinet even at lower values and sound was ...like from speakers. Not any similar to the sound of Shigeru Kawai acoustic which by the way the shop had displayed in next room (entire range) and encouraged me to play.

The second try for Novus I did was when the Copenhagen branch of the Helsinki shop (or other way around actually:-)) intalled Avant Grand N2 next to Novus in same room. Playing Yamaha, I got immediatelly connected to the instrument, greedy to play more and more, discover new nuances. With Kawai there was always feeling that I need to tweak the sound somehow to make it at least sound right, pleasant. With the professional pianist who works in the shop, we also made a test - he played for me and I played for him. We listened the pianos from same distance. The spacial feeling of Yamaha output was like sound was comming from actual piano, Novus sounded like piano reproduced in speakers. Playing Yamaha, I have to mention one great feature- system TRS, which quite naturally simulates the vibrations of the keys like on real grand.

Yamaha has thinner sample sound generally speaking, but when I played it, I was feeling I play self confident serious instrument. I am sorry to touch feelings of many, but Kawai Novus, whatever cabinet similar to Avant Grand series they have, must go a good mile to get close to Avant Grand. All theory about sensors and sounds disappears when you touch the instrument.

So I just strongly recommend to all who would be interrested in buying digital of this class - visit the shop, where ideally you can directly compare, and be very careful thinking for what you spend on your 10 000 EUR. To my personal opinion, Yamaha Avant Grand is better value, made in Japan, 5 years warranty, technicians all around Europe, and design has been proved by years of service. There are not many used Avant Grands on sale in Europe. Why?:-)

I am not a blind fan of Yamaha, and actually I love sound and touch of real Shigeru Kawai. This is why it was really disappointing encounter with Novus.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/16/18 05:07 PM
Hi Honza,

Thanks for posting your impressions, and I while I understand it can be a bit difficult to jump into a thread like this with a "negative" impression, I personally found it very well-reasoned and a valuable contribution for anyone in the market or just curious between the two instruments.

I don't know if you've read this and other threads, but there are indeed others who have liked the action, aesthetics, and/or sound of the Avant Grands better (and I believe at least one, QuinGold, ended up getting an N3X after playing both).

Now that I've had more than a solid month on the NV10, I feel like I'm very familiar with it, and I actually want to sit down at an N3X and N2 again just to compare for curiosity. But it's not super convenient to get to an AG where I am.

And you're right, AGs don't come on the market frequently AT ALL, here in the US either. I'm sure much of it is because people are happy with the instruments and don't need to upgrade, but I also wonder if it's just because the hybrid market must be quite tiny (most people with this much money to spend on an instrument will probably get an acoustic if they can).
Posted By: redfish1901 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/16/18 05:12 PM
Thanks for that HonzaC for your alternate view. What you describe was similar to my comparison between AvantGrand N2 and N1--more "speaker" sound than "piano cabinet" sound. More connected-ness to N2 because of the TRS. I suspected NV10 would be closer to N1 in sound based on the speaker specs, but reviews online seemed to disagree with me. Except your review.

So, I am eager to try the NV10 myself when my local dealer gets one in sometime in the next few months.

I liked the N2 a lot when I tried it. And my dealer was asking 8K USD which is quite good. The only reason I didn't purchase it was because NV10 was slowly becoming available, and N2X is still expected soon (by my guess).
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/16/18 06:55 PM
Originally Posted by HonzaC
I am sorry to touch feelings of many

No feelings touched - no need to apologize...

Thanks for your detailed impression. Even if in most points I don't agree at all wink or have actually the opposite opinion. I've learned here on the forum that it is possible for different people to come to widely different opinions about one and the same piano, but at the end, none of them is objectively right or wrong. In most cases it's simply a matter of taste and expectations. It is difficult to understand intellectually how it is possible that someone else obviously hears something totally different, e.g. when you describe how you felt a connection only with the N2, not the NV10, I'm baffled, because for me it was exactly the other way round (although via headphones and a N1), but that's indeed how it seems to be with pianos (you can sometimes read similar differences in opinion over in the acoustic forum).
Posted By: HonzaC Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/17/18 01:50 PM
I start from the end - I have asked about any new products from Yamaha AG series, I was told that N2 is not expected to be replaced any soon (out of context rather discontinued), and AG N1x shoud be around not before early 2019. So new N1X might be intended to replace both N1+N2. I have got similar information from two different dealers but of course there is no official confirmation available.

I agree with your statements, expectation is what is important. My frined has a saying "Too much honey licking through glass". Kawai exposed customers to 2 years waiting after they announced the product, and I have the feeling they overkilled the marketing statements. And it was delayed and delayed well beyoynd the company anniversary celebrations which it was presented for (showing maybe production or bugs problems?..). Honestly the entire project looks suspicious for me in the way Kawai dealt with it (and I think it is marketing/communication department failure) - several presentations of prototypes, first different cabinet just to show Onkyo inside (what for? playing old samples through Onkyo electronics??), then presentationof cabinet but STILL without new samples. So bombastic presentations of what you can maybe have if you wait another year - or two.. and after two years of waiting there is no basic function to put the control screen into sleep to make the cabinet look discreet? Who did the testing to overlook this frequently commented detail?

Also one thing which really did not impress me and rises general quality concerns for me (I did not look where it is actually made..) - when I played Novus after it was 2 weeks on display, the grey felt on the keys (under the opened lid) was slightly leaving hair on the keys. With other obeservations presented above, I simply was done with that piano after 30 minutes, and the second try few weeks later in direct Yamaha N2 comparison just confirmed my previous conclusions. Also I asked opinions of friend of mine and my teacher - without suggesting my view before I got theirs. They both replied that N1 and N2 are great instruments with astonishing sensitivity to the touch in terms of shading and different hand movements (friend is excellent classical pianist, grown on Steinways, now plays Steinway and N2, my teacher has 40+ years of teaching experience, Sibelius Academy degree, giving lessons on Steinways and Yamahas).

I know I am very negative about the Kawai product, but its just the reaction on the many WOWs around, just to give all heads up and cool down before jumping into decision, this product is not a bottle of milk you buy every day but shoud be selected as long term companion for personal musical development and joy. I would advice everybody - take the breath, try it, compare as much as you can, even let the shop assistant record the video with your phone on different instruments, and then after week or two, when excitement of new shiny product with coulour touchscreen goes down, compare and make up your mind. The pianos will not disappear. Only then put your money on the table. And you can very well end up selecting Novus, at the end personal taste will be the winner.

Just a positive note to Kawai - Shigeru SK2 is my dream instrument:-)
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/17/18 02:59 PM
Honzac, excuse me but the following is simply incorrect, and as such statements have a tendency to become "internet facts" if not corrected, allow me to do just that, for posterity (in a proud tradition):
Originally Posted by HonzaC
Kawai exposed customers to 2 years waiting after they announced the product, and I have the feeling they overkilled the marketing statements. And it was delayed and delayed well beyoynd the company anniversary celebrations which it was presented for (showing maybe production or bugs problems?..).

There was no "2 years waiting after announcement" and no "delay well beyond anniversary celebrations". The correct dates are:

2017-03-30: First mentioning of the upcoming preview (note: not a release announcement, but a preview):
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2708994/1.html

2017-04-05: Actual preview during Musikmesse 2017

2017-10-20: Official product announcement:
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2684324/1.html

2017-12-18: First hands-on report by a pianoworld member after playing an actual model in a European shop (not at a show/fair):
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...iano-at-musicmesse-2017.html#Post2697983

2018-02-05: First unit delivered to the home of a European pianoworld member (your's truly):
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...wai-novus-nv10-hands-on.html#Post2711678
(only a day or two later another unit at the home of a US pianoworld member)

So to recapitulate:
  • Not "2 years", but only ~10 months between the first "preview announcement" and the first privately bought and delivered unit in Europe.
  • And that unit was delivered (in Europe!) only ~3.5 months after the actual "product announcement".
  • And there were <2 months between that product announcement and the first unit in a European shop.

All in all, not a slow product release at all, if you ask me. And in my opinion it also doesn't leave any wiggle room that can be interpreted as excessive delays or such, that could allow for speculation about "production or bugs problems". BTW, my NV10 has a production date stamp of August 2017 (I'm not sure if that is the date for the whole unit though). That too fits nicely with the timeline shown above and argues against some sort of "mysterious" problems/bugs. ~6 months between production in East Asia (at a time well before the official announcement) and delivery in Europe. Seems quite acceptable to me for such a product.

EDIT: The below baffles me so much, that I had to add it to my post:
Originally Posted by HonzaC
Honestly the entire project looks suspicious for me in the way Kawai dealt with it (and I think it is marketing/communication department failure) - several presentations of prototypes, first different cabinet just to show Onkyo inside (what for? playing old samples through Onkyo electronics??), then presentationof cabinet but STILL without new samples. So bombastic presentations of what you can maybe have if you wait another year - or two..
There never were "several prototype presentations" and never were "different cabinets" for the NV10. Is it possible that you are confusing this with the CS-X1 prototype that Kawai presented at Musikmesse 2016? That was a totally different project. It was a CS11 on steroids and had nothing to do with the NV10. Also it was never presented as a product that Kawai planned to actually release, but was always presented as a pure proof-of-concept prototype to showcase the cooperation with Onkyo. Like the concept car prototypes that car manufacturers present at car shows, where everyone knows that they are only studies and will never actually be brought to market.

Originally Posted by HonzaC
I know I am very negative about the Kawai product, but its just the reaction on the many WOWs around, just to give all heads up and cool down before jumping into decision
That's fine and a commendable intention, but it would work better if you had the facts correct. frown
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/17/18 04:39 PM
I think JoBert said all that was needed about the rest of your post, but this did draw my attention:

Originally Posted by HonzaC
when I played Novus after it was 2 weeks on display, the grey felt on the keys (under the opened lid) was slightly leaving hair on the keys.


Though a pretty minor point, I've noticed this myself. The felt (I think it's actually black) is very thin and it does pill and shed. Also, it's thin enough to crumple if your finger barely brushes it while playing deep into the keys.

I suspect this felt was chosen because it's not a straight shot along the fallboard, there is a cutout for the left cheek block where the touchscreen is, and the felt has to be soft enough to bend/wrap around the cutout.

But if I look at a Yamaha acoustic fallboard (either acoustic or grand), I do agree those are very obviously thicker, more firm, and the exposed strip is actually folded back over and terminates under the fallboard.

If one cared enough about it, the NV10 fallboard easily comes off, and I suspect a fallboard felt strip can be very easily sourced from a tuner/technician.
Posted By: Osho Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/17/18 04:42 PM
Originally Posted by JoBert
EDIT: The below baffles me so much, that I had to add it to my post:


JoBert,

I share your bafflement.

Reading between the lines, when someone new joins these forums and blasts competing products from company A and praises 7-year old competing products from company B in the first two posts, I wonder if there are any ulterior motives or connections. If similar negative reviews were coming from someone who has been participating in forums for a while, that would be a different story and we will all appreciate the critical commentary. But, something does not sound right here.

Osho
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/17/18 04:57 PM
"Yamaha Avant Grand is better value, made in Japan,"

I didn't pay much attention to where the Novus is manufactured, except that I understood the Millennium 3 action is made in Japan. People pay too much attention to the country of manufacture. The workers in Japan may be Japanese (if that is the point), but probably not. Japan imports workers from all over Asia and the rest of the world including the middle east. The management oversight and quality control are more important than where the product is assembled.
Posted By: redfish1901 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/17/18 07:31 PM
I'm more interested in HonzaC's comment on future of N1/N2, as he said some interesting stuff.

I think if what he says is true, Kawai is going to seriously eat into Yamaha's dominance in hybrid pianos. Already, K DP's at every price point is better than Ys. People still by Ys because of name recognition and dealership numbers, but anyone seriously cross shopping would end up with a K DP. This fight has now been extended to hybrid pianos, and I think Y has to seriously step up. Most likely Y will just barely keep up, as product development cycles are long, and R&D is expensive.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/17/18 08:40 PM
I think Yamaha is just biding time for the N3X to be in the spotlight. Many of us thought that given the "minimal" updates (mainly electronic, same cabinet) it would be quick to do the same for the n1 and n2, but when Yamaha flat out denied it at NAMM it's been clear that it would be a year at least.

I still think an n2x is coming, but I think enough people are being pushed to the $15000 update that they felt comfortable pushing out there $8000 one. And while the Kawai is in limited release (production of 800 for 2018?) They don't feel any real competitive pressure yet.
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/19/18 12:27 AM
Originally Posted by JoBert
Honzac, excuse me but the following is simply incorrect, and as such statements have a tendency to become "internet facts" if not corrected, allow me to do just that...


[Linked Image]
Posted By: Galuwen Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/19/18 06:01 AM
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by JoBert
Honzac, excuse me but the following is simply incorrect, and as such statements have a tendency to become "internet facts" if not corrected, allow me to do just that...


[Linked Image]


Sorry but Honzac is (technically) right: He speaks about the first (pre) version the KAWAI CS-X1. Not justifying subjective impressions, just to be right.

Alexander
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/19/18 06:28 AM
Originally Posted by Galuwen
Sorry but Honzac is (technically) right: He speaks about the first (pre) version the KAWAI CS-X1. Not justifying subjective impressions, just to be right.

Also sorry, but no. He did not speak about the CS-X1. He wrote about the NV10. He said the NV10 was announced and repeatedly delayed over 2 years etc. etc. Yes, he had presumably confused the CS-X1 with the Novus (that's a guess I made, iirc he himself never mentioned the CS-X1 designation) but based on this confusion, he then made incorrect statements about the NV10. So no, not even "technically" right regarding those points.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/19/18 11:09 AM
Sorry, but it seems like we’ve lost HonzaC. May it rest in peace! cry
Posted By: Chris Warren Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/19/18 01:36 PM
This was a thread about "hands on" with the NV10.... does anyone have any recordings they've done with the NV10 (preferably classical)?
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/19/18 01:59 PM
Look up JoBert on YouTube.
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/19/18 03:33 PM
Originally Posted by TomLC
Originally Posted by Chris Warren
This was a thread about "hands on" with the NV10.... does anyone have any recordings they've done with the NV10 (preferably classical)?

Look up JoBert on YouTube.

Thanks Tom. Yes, I have a small number of recordings of the NV10 in my channel (see my signature). Only the most recent ones though (adding more in the course of the 40 pieces challenge). Currently, most are still from my CA97.
Posted By: Galuwen Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/19/18 03:37 PM
Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by Galuwen
Sorry but Honzac is (technically) right: He speaks about the first (pre) version the KAWAI CS-X1. Not justifying subjective impressions, just to be right.

Also sorry, but no. He did not speak about the CS-X1. He wrote about the NV10. He said the NV10 was announced and repeatedly delayed over 2 years etc. etc. Yes, he had presumably confused the CS-X1 with the Novus (that's a guess I made, iirc he himself never mentioned the CS-X1 designation) but based on this confusion, he then made incorrect statements about the NV10. So no, not even "technically" right regarding those points.


Anyway I want to point out, that I like the way Kawai is doing their marketing work. To show customers concepts, checks the feedback and develops for their target groups.

They got me on the very first day :-) :-) :-).

Brilliant and a bit scary - Diabolic ;-).

Alex
Posted By: NormB Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/19/18 07:19 PM
Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
I can say the same, the Kawai felt like it had more sideway movement compared to the N2 and the Yamaha baby grand I practice on during lessons. That doesn't make it bad though. I felt the same sideway movement on the Bösendorfer I played on once with the school. I didn't quite have $170,000 to buy it though.


If that's really a grand (like) action in there, side play should be adjustable, no?
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/19/18 08:01 PM
Originally Posted by NormB

If that's really a grand (like) action in there, side play should be adjustable, no?


I think further up there was some input from a technician or two that it's possible, but not exactly trivial to do so. I think the bigger question is whether it's a problem at all? I've seen grands that have more side to side play, and grands with less. So my thought is the NV10 actually falls near the middle of the pack, and none of these seemed problematic to play in the first place?
Posted By: terminaldegree Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/19/18 08:06 PM
Originally Posted by NormB

If that's really a grand (like) action in there, side play should be adjustable, no?


You have to think in terms of how this is adjusted on a grand action, it's not like turning a screw or reversing it...rather you're crushing a felt bushing with pliers, or mangling it a little with a different tool to "tighten" it, or pulling the keys off, removing the key bushings, and gluing new ones in place with cauls, waiting for things to dry, and then making many small adjustments.

The closer you get to the acoustic piano action (as we're starting to see with the AvantGrand and the Novus), the more the maintenance and regulation requirements start to simulate those of an acoustic piano.
Posted By: NormB Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/19/18 09:22 PM
Originally Posted by Bambers


Alternatively I recall a slightly bodgy trick is to twist the pins a little as these are usually not circular but a little elliptical, this twisting them increases the effective width.


This is what I remember. Wouldn't want to try it on a full keyboard, as opposed to a few loose keys.

Doesn't Kawai itself somewhere in its grand adjusting info also suggest a drop of water-isopropyl alcohol on the felt with the key off, then allowing this to dry? Also not recommended for a whole loose action, I am sure.
Posted By: terminaldegree Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/19/18 10:00 PM
Originally Posted by NormB
Originally Posted by Bambers


Alternatively I recall a slightly bodgy trick is to twist the pins a little as these are usually not circular but a little elliptical, this twisting them increases the effective width.


This is what I remember. Wouldn't want to try it on a full keyboard, as opposed to a few loose keys.

Doesn't Kawai itself somewhere in its grand adjusting info also suggest a drop of water-isopropyl alcohol on the felt with the key off, then allowing this to dry? Also not recommended for a whole loose action, I am sure.


I don't mean to keep jumping into this thread, but there's some bad information here among the good. Twisting the key pins is *NOT* the correct way to solve this problem. It may help in a pinch, but if you leave it like that, you'll wear things out very quickly.

If you're really looking for a late-night sleeping aid, I have attached the link to Kawai's grand piano regulation manual. Some (but definitely not all) of these procedures will probably apply to the hybrid.

[link redacted]

Disclaimer: it should be noted that I only have performed maybe half of these regulation procedures in the field, though I have observed my mentor do more of them. I would probably feel comfortable enough to tackle the full list by my 5th year of working with a mentor, after spending most of my time (to this point) refining my tuning ability... this is absolutely not something that should be done by an inexperienced person without direct professional supervision.
Posted By: Chrispy Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/19/18 10:21 PM
Originally Posted by terminaldegree

If you're really looking for a late-night sleeping aid, I have attached the link to Kawai's grand piano regulation manual. Some (but definitely not all) of these procedures will probably apply to the hybrid.

https://www.kawaius-tsd.com/PDF/Regulation%20GP-English%201.6.pdf


This is actually a fascinating doc on some techniques used for regulating, which seems quite mysterious to us outsiders.

It's also freaking scary! From the very first part, "don't overtighten, only do 1/4 turn." Do piano techs have something against torque wrenches for this kind of thing? Then I get to the picture where a lighter is being held next to the shank. A lighter, inside this giant wood/felt/lacquer/who-knows-what-else-is-flammable beast of a machine. Not to mention various pliers hooked to bits with fairly vague specifications as to what and how much to bend. If I ever own an acoustic I'm going to be VERY picky about who I trust to do this kind of work laugh
Posted By: Bambers Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/19/18 11:21 PM
I did preface with 'bodgy' for a reason. smile
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/19/18 11:32 PM
Wow, this thread is really something else smile

I have no idea if the manual is public, but I agree with squidbot, it's absolutely fascinating. Being on a DP forum, it's a different turn to think about fixing shims or filing wooden blocks, I feel like I'm reading instructions on cabinetry/home remodeling. But of course, how else are you going to do it, right?

Bodgy or not, it makes a for a nice (and educational) distraction from the day.
Posted By: JoeT Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/20/18 10:00 AM
Originally Posted by squidbot
It's also freaking scary! From the very first part, "don't overtighten, only do 1/4 turn." Do piano techs have something against torque wrenches for this kind of thing? Then I get to the picture where a lighter is being held next to the shank. A lighter, inside this giant wood/felt/lacquer/who-knows-what-else-is-flammable beast of a machine. Not to mention various pliers hooked to bits with fairly vague specifications as to what and how much to bend. If I ever own an acoustic I'm going to be VERY picky about who I trust to do this kind of work laugh

A piano is not highly flammable and doesn't instantly combust next to a lighter. The flame is heating up the wood enough, so you can bend it into shape. Of course, to a modern Westerner it would look much less scary using some fancy high-tech electrical heating appliance for the same result. But pianos are made since hundreds of years and the classical craft still works well. I case of a lighter near a Kawai grand I would be more concerned about not hitting the plastic parts of the action.
Posted By: NormB Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/20/18 03:17 PM
Originally Posted by squidbot
[quote=terminaldegree]
If you're really looking for a late-night sleeping aid, I have attached the link to Kawai's grand piano regulation manual. Some (but definitely not all) of these procedures will probably apply to the hybrid.

https://www.kawaius-tsd.com/PDF/Regulation%20GP-English%201.6.pdf

Ah, that is where I saw it. On page 5:


"If the balance hole is loose on the pin, apply a few drops of alcohol and water (Isopropyl 70%) to the
hole then set aside. Once it is dry, re-fit it to the pin."

But there's only mention of the balance hole...
Posted By: jfl Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/20/18 08:57 PM
Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by TomLC
Originally Posted by Chris Warren
This was a thread about "hands on" with the NV10.... does anyone have any recordings they've done with the NV10 (preferably classical)?

Look up JoBert on YouTube.

Thanks Tom. Yes, I have a small number of recordings of the NV10 in my channel (see my signature). Only the most recent ones though (adding more in the course of the 40 pieces challenge). Currently, most are still from my CA97.


Hi, JoBert-

I have listened to all of your YouTube recordings and I thank you for posting such an assortment for everyone's benefit. I frankly don't hear much difference between the acoustics of the older CA-97 and newer NV10 recordings.

I found it interesting to compare the NV10 to an acoustic Kawai recording of the same piece:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrZYZai0IhA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLYrzunvM2E

I don't suppose there's any way you could make a recording of the NV10 speaker output using a microphone? I suspect room acoustics would add a natural component to the sound.
Posted By: jfl Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/20/18 09:51 PM
Another comparison using JoBert's NV10 sample and an N3 - Satie Gymnopedie No. 1 (only comparing sound, not performance):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMZo_a_T690
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHOpzsuGGGo
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/20/18 10:21 PM
I wonder if there would be any difference between a recording on an NV10 versus one on a CA78/98. Aside from the difference in the pianist's reaction to the different actions, is there anything else? E.g., do the CAs transmit note off velocity that is used by the sound engine?
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/20/18 10:46 PM
"I frankly don't hear much difference between the acoustics of the older CA-97 and newer NV10 recordings. "


These are both line out recordings I assume. Correct JoBert? From the speakers it is very possible the CA97 would sound better due to the soundboard. The point of buying the NV10 is the grand piano action. As I am the least experienced player (by far) of the three of us that own this piano, I can tell you it feels very different to me. As my teacher told me, "you have to work harder now". Why go through the challenge? The dynamics and feel I get playing the NV10 is superior to both the CA97 and the CS11. I have owned all three, and a CN35 before that. Each upgrade has improved the experience of playing a grand piano. I think that is why people stay with the AG N1 and N2. They are not as concerned with the sound as with the action. Most of the time, we play with headphones on anyway.
Posted By: akc42 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/20/18 10:53 PM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
I wonder if there would be any difference between a recording on an NV10 versus one on a CA78/98. Aside from the difference in the pianist's reaction to the different actions, is there anything else? E.g., do the CAs transmit note off velocity that is used by the sound engine?


My CA67 has very slightly different loudness for the same touch with different keys, something I am attributing to the fact there is a physical connection to the sensor. I have wondered if the optical sensing mechanism in the Novus 10 would produce a more even loudness across different notes.

I was discussing this with my teacher earlier today ( she comes to me) were she said acoustics were like that also and you learn to work with/around the issue. I have tried to lessen the impact - by switching to the EX Grand Piano from the SK-Grand piano (as to me the difference is less noticeable with the EX than with the SK) and then changing the voicing in the Virtual Technician to "Mellow2" (as the EX is a much Brighter Sound than the SK, and I prefer the more Mellow sound).

Having today received an invite from Bonners Music (where I bought my CA67 from) to an open evening where the Novus 10 will be presented. I am wondering whether to go (its in Eastbourne, whereas I live close to their Reigate piano showroom - not a store, its on an industrial estate) so its a bit of a long journey.

PS - It sends a zero as note off velocity (according to the demo version of Pianoteq I tried)
Posted By: cliowa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/20/18 10:54 PM
Hi all,
I'm happy to read people have been such good experiences with the Novus! I myself have gone try it twice at two different dealers, and while I really like the mechanics and the sound via headphones, in both places I took some issue with the speakers: starting from medium to high volumes, several (and not just few) notes created something like a resonance, where it sounded like a part of the speaker or the casing were vibrating, creating a buzzing/humming noise with the keys (for individual, but many notes, so not a white background noise). Of course the vendors tried to convince me it's the piano simulating the sound of strings vibrating, but it actually sounds more like there is a piece of aluminum foil stuck to the strings or so... Anyway, since this did not occur over headphones I just blamed the hardware of the speakers, but I have to say I was very surprised to have this happen in both versions, when I thought it must be an issue of a particular piano. In the end I find it to be such an issue that I'm holding off on buying one of those pianos for now.

Has anyone else experienced the same issues? Do you have any suggestions for possible remedies?
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/20/18 10:57 PM
"so its a bit of a long journey".

It may be an expensive one also!!
Posted By: akc42 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/20/18 11:12 PM
Originally Posted by cliowa
several (and not just few) notes created something like a resonance, where it sounded like a part of the speaker or the casing were vibrating,


This is happening to me in with the CA67 with the SK Grand Piano, it is much lessened and almost gone now I've switched to the EX-Grand. The other thing that has also improved it a bit, is that my teacher was trying to set the volume to match what she thought her acoustic sounded like at the same touch. The volume control is a slider with Min and Max at either end, and 9 graduation marks in between, effectively giving a scale of 0 -> 10. She moved the volume to 7. With mine it feels like its the bigger speakers pointing down under the keyboard that are vibrating like that

Again that was another thing I was hoping the Novus 10 would overcome - maybe its just the sampling of the SK Grand that has this in certain notes (E above Middle C is one, that I notice the most).

You will see a comment from me (Alan Chandler) against the "live mike" comparison the Bonners Music did of the ES8, FP90 and Yamaha 255 - where I could hear these resonances on different notes in those three pianos. Yet it doesn't seem to have been discussed much on here.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/20/18 11:34 PM
I think there will definitely be fairly minute variation in note to note volume with the nv10, since the action is a complex, free-flying mechanical system. But that would be the same on an acoustic as well.

I think with digitals, you have so much opportunity to isolate factors (play exact velocity over midi, make note by note VT changes, change voicings completely instantly) that it's easy to go overboard work analysis. Whereas on an acoustic, it is what it is for the most part, any change is nontrivial, and you cannot isolate it from the environment in the first place, so you focus more on the big picture.
Posted By: cliowa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/21/18 12:38 PM
Originally Posted by akc42
The other thing that has also improved it a bit, is that my teacher was trying to set the volume to match what she thought her acoustic sounded like at the same touch. The volume control is a slider with Min and Max at either end, and 9 graduation marks in between, effectively giving a scale of 0 -> 10. She moved the volume to 7. With mine it feels like its the bigger speakers pointing down under the keyboard that are vibrating like that

Again that was another thing I was hoping the Novus 10 would overcome - maybe its just the sampling of the SK Grand that has this in certain notes (E above Middle C is one, that I notice the most).


Hmm, very odd. To me it really sounds like lousy design of the speakers/the chassis. Such an effect does not happen with the Yamaha Avant Grands and also not through headphones (which speaks against the theory of the sampling). But of course, once one turns down the volume sufficiently it goes away. Not that I find that a very convincing "fix"...

So do the new NV10 ownders really not have experienced that at all? (In the end I really think this is loud enough of an issue that it will keep me from buying the piano, so I would have guessed more people must have noticed.)
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/21/18 12:53 PM
Originally Posted by jfl
I frankly don't hear much difference between the acoustics of the older CA-97 and newer NV10 recordings.
I'm afraid YouTube and its audio compression is not very friendly to these recordings. The difference between pianist mode (my NV10 recordings) and sound mode (what the CA97 uses, and which is also present on the NV10, so I can compare directly) is definitely more noticeable when listening "live", both with headphones and with speakers. The pianist mode is better, but as I've written before, not so much better that this alone would have caused me to upgrade from the CA97 to for example the CA98. My upgrade to the NV10 was prompted mainly by other factors (action and cabinet). However, since I have the NV10, for me the improvement in pianist mode is substantial enough that I've more or less played the piano in pianist mode exclusively, except for the few times when I wanted a sound with layered strings.

Originally Posted by jfl
I don't suppose there's any way you could make a recording of the NV10 speaker output using a microphone? I suspect room acoustics would add a natural component to the sound.
I'm sorry, but I do not have the necessary recording equipment.

Originally Posted by TomLC
These are both line out recordings I assume. Correct JoBert?
Well, technically "direct to USB stick" recordings (originally as WAV, except for the pianist/sound mode comparison video, which by mistake I recorded in MP3).

Originally Posted by TomLC
From the speakers it is very possible the CA97 would sound better due to the soundboard.
It certainly would sound different, but I'm not sure about "better".

Originally Posted by cliowa
in both places I took some issue with the speakers: starting from medium to high volumes, several (and not just few) notes created something like a resonance, where it sounded like a part of the speaker or the casing were vibrating, creating a buzzing/humming noise with the keys (for individual, but many notes, so not a white background noise). Of course the vendors tried to convince me it's the piano simulating the sound of strings vibrating, but it actually sounds more like there is a piece of aluminum foil stuck to the strings or so... Anyway, since this did not occur over headphones I just blamed the hardware of the speakers, but I have to say I was very surprised to have this happen in both versions, when I thought it must be an issue of a particular piano. In the end I find it to be such an issue that I'm holding off on buying one of those pianos for now.

Has anyone else experienced the same issues? Do you have any suggestions for possible remedies?

I have occasionally encountered (what I assume to be) resonance sounds that could be described as slightly buzzy/vibrating. This doesn't happen very often and only for a few notes and in a small range of dynamics (meaning how loud the note sounds). It is possible that this is what you are referring to. I don't know what causes it, but I'm pretty sure that it's not because of some hardware fault in the speakers, as I can actually hear it with my HD-599 headphones too (but much less so, i.e. only because I know what to listen for). The reason why it's more noticeable on speakers is open for speculation. Maybe the speakers are simply "better" at reproducing this specific frequency that constitutes the buzzing-component of the sound?
I do not notice it very often, so it either doesn't happen very often or simply doesn't catch my notice. The few times when I notice it, I've gotten used to it as a "quirk" of the instrument (I remember how the acoustic on which I learned as a youth also had its gaggle of quirks). Sure, I would prefer the piano not to have such a quirk in the first place, but I've gotten used to it and it doesn't bother me.
Of course someone else might be bothered by it more. It's probably also a hearing sensitivity thing, as this effect happens in very high frequencies that an individual may be more or less sensitive to than others (the high frequencies are the first to go, after all, when we get older).
P.S. Oh, and I've only ever noticed it in pianist mode and in sound mode with the SK-EX sound (and the "Jazz Clean" sound, which is also based on the SK-EX, iirc). I've not noticed it with the other sounds, so that could be an indication that it's indeed a characteristic of the SK-EX samples.
Posted By: akc42 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/21/18 02:06 PM
Originally Posted by JoBert
Of course someone else might be bothered by it more. It's probably also a hearing sensitivity thing, as this effect happens in very high frequencies that an individual may be more or less sensitive to than others (the high frequencies are the first to go, after all, when we get older).


In my youth, I was always able to hear frequencies way above anyone else (19KHz comes to mind, but I may be mistaken - I did a test where I could tell if a higher or lower frequency note was played and would get them right). I had assumed that now I am 67 (in a few days) that that ability was lost. But I hear very noticeable high frequency "ting" as part of the "SK ConcertGrand" (I assume that is what you are calling SK-EX sound) on my CA67 which isn't there with the "EX ConcertGrand" on the F above Middle C but which isn't there with the other notes close by. This is true in both speaker and headphone mode. Its noticeable enough for me to switch my default sound to the EX ConcertGrand despite I prefer the mellower overall tone of the SK. I have got round it by storing a default voicing of "Mellow 2" against the EX sound.
Posted By: Bambers Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/21/18 02:57 PM
Originally Posted by akc42

PS - It sends a zero as note off velocity (according to the demo version of Pianoteq I tried)


This might be pianoteq not using it. My cs8 sends a variable velocity for note off and the piano engine makes use of it to adjust the sound of the note being damped. The amount of this effect is an adjustable vt parameter.
Posted By: Old Apprentice Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/21/18 04:29 PM
Originally Posted by cliowa
Originally Posted by akc42
The other thing that has also improved it a bit, is that my teacher was trying to set the volume to match what she thought her acoustic sounded like at the same touch. The volume control is a slider with Min and Max at either end, and 9 graduation marks in between, effectively giving a scale of 0 -> 10. She moved the volume to 7. With mine it feels like its the bigger speakers pointing down under the keyboard that are vibrating like that

Again that was another thing I was hoping the Novus 10 would overcome - maybe its just the sampling of the SK Grand that has this in certain notes (E above Middle C is one, that I notice the most).


Hmm, very odd. To me it really sounds like lousy design of the speakers/the chassis. Such an effect does not happen with the Yamaha Avant Grands and also not through headphones (which speaks against the theory of the sampling). But of course, once one turns down the volume sufficiently it goes away. Not that I find that a very convincing "fix"...

So do the new NV10 ownders really not have experienced that at all? (In the end I really think this is loud enough of an issue that it will keep me from buying the piano, so I would have guessed more people must have noticed.)




I'm sorry, but when you join the discussion with mostly negative comments and use language like 'lousy design', you sound just like HonzaC. You joined this month, about the time HonzaC disappeared, have made 2 posts critical of the quality of the construction of the instrument (much like HonzaC) using the same type of language. You also indicate that the Yamaha Avantgrands are better made, much like HonzaC. I'm all for open and critical discussions but I doubt any instrument from Kawai, Yamaha or Roland for that matter deserves to be referred to as lousy design.

I don't own this instrument and have absolutely no vested interest. I don't feel precious about it; I just like reading about people's experiences with another hybrid instrument.
Posted By: UKchap75 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/21/18 09:22 PM
I agree that it's a shame the NV10 has this buzzing in the first place, and also that you do learn to accept it. My machine is the 1.0.1 version. I don't now how to get the 1.0.2 version and note that a couple of people that have this version do not mention buzzing. I have reduced the buzzing to almost zero (like from 100% down to 1-2%) by creating a user tone setting and reduced the High frequency setting from 5 to 2. I could reduce more but felt 2 was fine. This keeps the singing tone more than going for the mellow 2 setting. Also agree some piano styles such as Jazz are better. But the user tone setting made a huge difference without really affecting the sound at all, compared to using the mellow settings.
Posted By: cliowa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/21/18 09:32 PM
Originally Posted by JoBert

I have occasionally encountered (what I assume to be) resonance sounds that could be described as slightly buzzy/vibrating. This doesn't happen very often and only for a few notes and in a small range of dynamics (meaning how loud the note sounds). It is possible that this is what you are referring to. I don't know what causes it, but I'm pretty sure that it's not because of some hardware fault in the speakers, as I can actually hear it with my HD-599 headphones too (but much less so, i.e. only because I know what to listen for). The reason why it's more noticeable on speakers is open for speculation. Maybe the speakers are simply "better" at reproducing this specific frequency that constitutes the buzzing-component of the sound?
I do not notice it very often, so it either doesn't happen very often or simply doesn't catch my notice. The few times when I notice it, I've gotten used to it as a "quirk" of the instrument (I remember how the acoustic on which I learned as a youth also had its gaggle of quirks). Sure, I would prefer the piano not to have such a quirk in the first place, but I've gotten used to it and it doesn't bother me.
Of course someone else might be bothered by it more. It's probably also a hearing sensitivity thing, as this effect happens in very high frequencies that an individual may be more or less sensitive to than others (the high frequencies are the first to go, after all, when we get older).
P.S. Oh, and I've only ever noticed it in pianist mode and in sound mode with the SK-EX sound (and the "Jazz Clean" sound, which is also based on the SK-EX, iirc). I've not noticed it with the other sounds, so that could be an indication that it's indeed a characteristic of the SK-EX samples.


Interesting, thanks for that! I'll have to go try more different modes, but for me this really was a strikingly loud and unpleasant sound. The headphones I used where Sennheiser HD600 and so far I have not had an issue with the sound reproduction through them, hence my assumption that this was a speaker issue. I get your point that also in an acoustic piano one doesn't have perfectly clean tones, but to me this didn't sound like a high fidelity representation of an actual piano sound...

Originally Posted by Old Apprentice

I'm sorry, but when you join the discussion with mostly negative comments and use language like 'lousy design', you sound just like HonzaC. You joined this month, about the time HonzaC disappeared, have made 2 posts critical of the quality of the construction of the instrument (much like HonzaC) using the same type of language. You also indicate that the Yamaha Avantgrands are better made, much like HonzaC. I'm all for open and critical discussions but I doubt any instrument from Kawai, Yamaha or Roland for that matter deserves to be referred to as lousy design.


As you remarked I am new here, so I do not relate much to the prior history you had with HonzaC. I felt like I came across a pretty glaring design issue (or at least a serial problem with some models) of this piano, so that's why I wanted to bring it up and hear what people have to say about it. I have no idea about the quality of construction of any of these hybrids (also not the Yamahas), but the fact that very specifically the speakers seem to have an issue that is a quite basic problem felt like a very unfortunate fact given the price of the instrument. My apologies if lousy was too strong a term for your taste.
Posted By: cliowa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/21/18 09:43 PM
Originally Posted by UKchap75
I agree that it's a shame the NV10 has this buzzing in the first place, and also that you do learn to accept it. My machine is the 1.0.1 version. I don't now how to get the 1.0.2 version and note that a couple of people that have this version do not mention buzzing. I have reduced the buzzing to almost zero (like from 100% down to 1-2%) by creating a user tone setting and reduced the High frequency setting from 5 to 2. I could reduce more but felt 2 was fine. This keeps the singing tone more than going for the mellow 2 setting. Also agree some piano styles such as Jazz are better. But the user tone setting made a huge difference without really affecting the sound at all, compared to using the mellow settings.


Oh, "glad" to hear I'm not going crazy with my hearing... But cool you managed to partially fix this! Could you maybe give a little more detail as to what exactly you did, so I can try to replicate and see whether that works out? Many thanks!

As for the others, is it really true that the 1.0.2 version does not have this issue anymore?
Posted By: DiarmuidD Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/21/18 09:43 PM
Nice thread. I'm pretty much a Yamaha guy when it comes to hybrids but I have to say the sound from the Kawai is really impressive. It would make me think twice and I would love to have a go and see how I feel about the action etc.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/21/18 10:50 PM
Originally Posted by UKchap75
My machine is the 1.0.1 version. I don't now how to get the 1.0.2 version and note that a couple of people that have this version do not mention buzzing.


I don't know if 1.02 makes any kind of changes that affects this (or if it really can) but as I recall Kawai doesn't (yet?) have a used downloadable upgrade to v1.0.2, but if you're on an older version you can give Kawai a call and they will make sure you get set up correctly.
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/21/18 11:50 PM
Originally Posted by UKchap75
I agree that it's a shame the NV10 has this buzzing in the first place, and also that you do learn to accept it. My machine is the 1.0.1 version. I don't now how to get the 1.0.2 version and note that a couple of people that have this version do not mention buzzing. I have reduced the buzzing to almost zero (like from 100% down to 1-2%) by creating a user tone setting and reduced the High frequency setting from 5 to 2. I could reduce more but felt 2 was fine. This keeps the singing tone more than going for the mellow 2 setting. Also agree some piano styles such as Jazz are better. But the user tone setting made a huge difference without really affecting the sound at all, compared to using the mellow settings.



UKchap, When did you get your NV10? You must have one of the first made. Was it released in the UK first? I would think the update for the CA98 would work. It has been out since last December. (Confirm with Kawai Support of course.)
Posted By: arc7urus Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/22/18 09:49 AM
Out of curiosity, a question to the NV10 owners that also owned or used a Kawai with GF or GF-II action: is the mechanical noise of the NV-10's action louder or "noisier" than the GF?
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/22/18 10:06 AM
Originally Posted by cliowa
As for the others, is it really true that the 1.0.2 version does not have this issue anymore?
What I wrote before applies to my piano, which has 1.0.2.

Originally Posted by arc_turus
Out of curiosity, a question to the NV10 owners that also owned or used a Kawai with GF or GF-II action: is the mechanical noise of the NV-10's action louder or "noisier" than the GF?
I had the CA97 with GFII. The Novus action is very noticeably louder than the GFII. Not the keys themselves, but the noises from "inside", i.e. the whole wippen/hammer/back check mechanism.
Posted By: UKchap75 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/22/18 11:34 AM
I had a quick look back at the settings last night. I got my figures a bit wrong. Firstly, see page 126 of the user manual. I adjusted the 'High' setting from 0 to -4 dB. -3 dB almost did it but I found -4 a smidge better. I'm not quite sure of the frequency setting side of things - I didn't touch that. But may do in the future. Changing the 'High' setting made a considerable difference to the buzzing (massive in fact). I agree at first it seems like the speakers are broken. Now I think they are just not filtering enough of the high pitch tones correctly. I appreciate that much of the 'singing' of a piano sound is from those high tones, but Kawai need to do some tweaking and lose the bits that normal ears just don't pick up too much. Funny story about how I worked this out though!!! I'd had the piano for a few weeks and just put up with it basically. Love it so much so was ok about it. Then one night my wife called me on the car phone, and she was going on and on, and making the speakers buzz, which for some reason only her voice does this. I was thinking her voice must be a higher frequency. Then suddenly thought that may be the issue on my piano!!! - Too much High frequency!'. Kawai, do you have a User Tone Control for BMW speakers/wifey voices? smile
Posted By: newer player Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/22/18 12:23 PM
Why don't you try to identify the buzzing sound with some sweep generators like:

http://www.szynalski.com/tone-generator/

Put speaker volume rather low so you don't destroy the system.

Maybe a speaker cover is rattling or a screw needs to be tightened or maybe a rubber gasket can resolve the sound. . .
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/22/18 01:30 PM
Originally Posted by arc_turus
Out of curiosity, a question to the NV10 owners that also owned or used a Kawai with GF or GF-II action: is the mechanical noise of the NV-10's action louder or "noisier" than the GF?


More realistic. Yes. Pedals also.
Posted By: UKchap75 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/22/18 01:49 PM
The buzzing isn't lose speaker cover or speakers. It's a sound frequency thing I believe. An electrical sound rather than a mechanical fail sound.
Posted By: cliowa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/22/18 08:19 PM
Originally Posted by UKchap75
I had a quick look back at the settings last night. I got my figures a bit wrong. Firstly, see page 126 of the user manual. I adjusted the 'High' setting from 0 to -4 dB. -3 dB almost did it but I found -4 a smidge better. I'm not quite sure of the frequency setting side of things - I didn't touch that. But may do in the future. Changing the 'High' setting made a considerable difference to the buzzing (massive in fact). I agree at first it seems like the speakers are broken. Now I think they are just not filtering enough of the high pitch tones correctly. I appreciate that much of the 'singing' of a piano sound is from those high tones, but Kawai need to do some tweaking and lose the bits that normal ears just don't pick up too much.


Thanks for the clarifications! I'll go try that out at my local dealer, and will report back. (Btw, I assume it's possible to just save those settings to the pianist mode, right? So you don't have to edit them every time you play...) Also nice it goes with a memorable story.
Posted By: UKchap75 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/22/18 09:36 PM
Yes, it saves those settings globally, I've found. So you don't have to change them for every favourite. Ps, only my car makes my wife sound high pitched! Not sure she was overly impressed with her assistance in improving the sound pf my new toy!! lol I was over the moon!
Posted By: UKchap75 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/23/18 09:58 AM
I've had my NV10 for nearly six weeks now. I've not played my acoustic baby grand once in that time. Yet again last night, the touch, feel and expression possible on the NV10 had me almost in tears whilst playing. Love it love it love it.
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/23/18 11:06 AM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by UKchap75
My machine is the 1.0.1 version. I don't now how to get the 1.0.2 version and note that a couple of people that have this version do not mention buzzing.


I don't know if 1.02 makes any kind of changes that affects this (or if it really can) but as I recall Kawai doesn't (yet?) have a used downloadable upgrade to v1.0.2, but if you're on an older version you can give Kawai a call and they will make sure you get set up correctly.


Yes, this is correct.

Unfortunately, software updates for the NV10 cannot be made publicly available in the usual way for reasons related to Bluetooth licensing. If NV10 customers find that their instrument is still running the v1.0.1 software, it is recommended that they contact their Kawai distributor to receive information on updating the instrument.

Originally Posted by TomLC
I would think the [v1.0.2] update for the CA98 would work. It has been out since last December. (Confirm with Kawai Support of course.)


The CA98 and NV10 share very similar hardware and software, however the software updates for the two instruments cannot and should not be interchanged.
To clarify, the NV10 is not compatible with the CA98/CA78 software update.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/23/18 10:08 PM
Originally Posted by UKchap75
I've had my NV10 for nearly six weeks now. I've not played my acoustic baby grand once in that time. Yet again last night, the touch, feel and expression possible on the NV10 had me almost in tears whilst playing. Love it love it love it.


I know what you mean. I've been on it all day today. My back is killing me.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/24/18 12:01 AM
I feel the opposite right now. I've been away from home for the last few days and I'm just aching to come back to the NV10. It's such a joy to play.
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/24/18 03:58 PM
It's the weekend, and I felt like tinkering again, so when my wife notice a smudge of dirt at the side of the white keytop material (the side edge of the front piece) of one key, this of course had to be cleaned immediately, giving me the perfect excuse to take out the fallboard again and tinker with my piano. wink
Because you see, to be able to clean that edge (which by itself took only a second or two), I had to lift the key up more than is normally possible. And to do that, I simply had to take out the fallboard and also remove that wooden strip that stops the keys from moving upwards, didn't I? I mean, what else could I do??? wink
Hmmm, and with that strip out of the way, why not finally get a perfect measurement of that "oh so important" pivot length?
So here it is, exact to the millimeter (I'll leave that pesky conversion to inches to you folks):

White keys pivot length: 25.9cm from white key front lip to center of balance pin.
[Linked Image]
Black keys pivot length: 22.5cm from black key front edge to center of balance pin.
[Linked Image]

And while I was in there, I took a picture of this here too, as many people are always interested in where something is manufactured:

[Linked Image]
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/24/18 04:21 PM
Nice job, JoBert. Ya gotta keep it clean. White keys, 10.2 inches. Black keys 8.86 inches. Do you think they are the same length as a GL30 or a GX1? I read somewhere it is the same (modified) action as the GX1. However the GX series have Neotex keys. So I assume it is closer to the GL series action with Acrylic and Phenol keys. (The GL30 and a GX1 are both 166cm.)
Posted By: Osho Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/24/18 04:23 PM
Thank you JoBert for sharing these pictures. That is a really impressive pivot length.

Osho
Posted By: Osho Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/24/18 04:25 PM
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Unfortunately, software updates for the NV10 cannot be made publicly available in the usual way for reasons related to Bluetooth licensing. If NV10 customers find that their instrument is still running the v1.0.1 software, it is recommended that they contact their Kawai distributor to receive information on updating the instrument.


So, what is the way to update the software on NV10? Does it require a tech visit at home? That could get expensive down the line (I am assuming there will be more software updates in the future - correct me if that is not planned).

Osho
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/24/18 04:57 PM
The software can be updated from a USB stick, like with other models. You just have to contact Kawai to get it in the first place. There's no public download link for it.
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/24/18 05:18 PM
Originally Posted by Rearden93241
Can someone please tell me the distance from the front (upper) end of the frame to the tip of the pedals?

I answered in your other thread...
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/24/18 11:52 PM
Have you tried removing a key?
Posted By: Tom Fort Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/25/18 04:05 AM
Originally Posted by TomLC
Nice job, JoBert. Ya gotta keep it clean. White keys, 10.2 inches. Black keys 8.86 inches. Do you think they are the same length as a GL30 or a GX1? I read somewhere it is the same (modified) action as the GX1. However the GX series have Neotex keys. So I assume it is closer to the GL series action with Acrylic and Phenol keys. (The GL30 and a GX1 are both 166cm.)


Gombessa had previously measured the MP11’s GF white key pivot length at ~9.5 inches, and the GF2 should be the same. I have noted Kawai’s literature for the CS11 on its introduction stated the CS11’s GF2 white key length was exactly the same as Kawai’s RX acoustic pianos. I thought I had seen the GF2 being the same as the RX2, but I can’t find a reference for that.

The overall key length for the GX series was lengthened by 1”, as was the GL series later. It seems reasonable that if the Novus NV10’s pivot length is .7” longer, then the overall key length of the NV10 might be 1” longer. This would equate the NV10’s overall key and pivot lengths to the GX and GL acoustic pianos, while the GF and GF2 would be equivalent to the earlier RX pianos.

I do not know at what length of acoustic piano Kawai would further lengthen the key length in order to strike the longer strings at an appropriate point, but I assume the GF2 and NV10 actions match ones at the shorter end of the scale, likely the RX2 and GX2/GL2 respectively.
Posted By: danielp11 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/25/18 06:05 AM
I posted here on this thread the pivot length of my Kawai GX2 with a photo.

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...wai-novus-nv10-hands-on.html#Post2712955

Its 26.2 cm with the rail still attached, so after all it might be more or less identical to then NV10.

Daniel
Posted By: MikePianoLover Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/26/18 05:38 PM
Hello UKchap75,

I was wondering, when you have some free time, could you write for us a review of your impressions of the Kawai Novus NV10 with respect especially to the following points:
1) Sound.
---With headphones and without headphones.
---The Pianist mode vs. the Voice mode.
2) Touch. Keyboard touch and so on.
3) Possibly your take on the debate about Novus NV10 vs. Yamaha N3X or lower N2 or N1?
4) Other things you would like to mention.
5) By the way, where did you buy your Novus NV10 in the UK?

Thanks in advance.

Congratulations on your Kawai Novus NV10.
Posted By: MikePianoLover Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/26/18 06:12 PM
Just a remark on the warranty.
At this link at https://www.gear4music.com/Keyboard...T-MmK2gIVSjobCh1BCACMEAAYAyAAEgIQw_D_BwE
it indicates:
Includes 2 year warranty & 30 day money back guarantee
Optional: 4 year warranty: £679.42

(Includes 60 day money back guarantee)

I believe that most piano manufacturers provide a 5-year warranty. Roland goes even better with a warranty for 10 years on their digital piano LX and HP line!
Why on an expensive piano such as the Novus NV10 is the warranty covering only 2 years?!
Posted By: akc42 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/26/18 06:18 PM
Originally Posted by MikePianoLover
Just a remark on the warranty.
At this link at https://www.gear4music.com/Keyboard...T-MmK2gIVSjobCh1BCACMEAAYAyAAEgIQw_D_BwE
it indicates:
Includes 2 year warranty & 30 day money back guarantee
Optional: 4 year warranty: £679.42

(Includes 60 day money back guarantee)

I believe that most piano manufacturers provide a 5-year warranty. Roland goes even better with a warranty for 10 years on their digital piano LX and HP line!
Why on an expensive piano such as the Novus NV10 is the warranty covering only 2 years?!


Bonners Music has 5 year warranty for that base price (£7829)
https://www.bonnersmusic.co.uk/kawai-novus-nv10-hybrid-digital-piano.ir
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/26/18 06:58 PM
Mine has a 5 year warranty. As did my previous Kawai pianos. CN35, CA97, CS11. This one I truly expect to keep for more than 5 years.
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/26/18 07:20 PM
Same from Kawai Germany: 5 years on all grands, uprights and digitals, including of course the NV10.
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/27/18 12:15 AM
Originally Posted by MikePianoLover
Just a remark on the warranty.
At this link at https://www.gear4music.com/Keyboard...T-MmK2gIVSjobCh1BCACMEAAYAyAAEgIQw_D_BwE
it indicates:
Includes 2 year warranty & 30 day money back guarantee
Optional: 4 year warranty: £679.42

(Includes 60 day money back guarantee)

I believe that most piano manufacturers provide a 5-year warranty. Roland goes even better with a warranty for 10 years on their digital piano LX and HP line!
Why on an expensive piano such as the Novus NV10 is the warranty covering only 2 years?!


Hello MikePianoLover,

Gear4Music is headquartered in the UK and purchases Kawai instruments from Kawai UK.
Kawai UK offers a 5 year parts and labour warranty, as detailed on this page:

http://www.kawai.co.uk/5years.htm

It could be that the 2 year warranty mentioned on the Gear4Music website is referring to the retailer's warranty, not the distributor's (Kawai UK) warranty. I will double-check the situation with my colleagues in the UK and confirm this point.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/27/18 01:25 AM
I was taking care of a few things today, so with the back off I decided to grab some pictures. There are a lot of images of keys and hammers, but not a lot about the back action, which is mostly obscured by a cushioned rail:

Here's the damper mechanism. Each is individually weighted, with capstans to adjust height against the keystick.
[Linked Image]

If you look closely, you can see the wooden peg (with a steel guiding pin) that is mechanically linked to the damper pedal, and which pushes the entire damper rail (a single extruded aluminum rail) up.
[Linked Image]

And of course, the damper weights are graded. There are four zones, with 17 keys in each zone, for a total of 68 damped (dampened?) keys and 20 undamped keys. So the undamped keys in the upper register start at F6 (or F7 depending on how you count).
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/27/18 03:53 AM
Is it possible to remove individual keys?
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/27/18 06:08 AM
Cool pictures Gombessa, interesting to see the damper weights lifted up.

Pete, when I cleaned the key I mentioned, I tried to lift it out but it was restricted by the wippen mechanism before coming clear of the pins, so I didn't. However, it's possible that I was simply too timid to try properly (I didn't want to break anything) or that there is a trick that I don't know.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/27/18 11:34 AM
Thanks. The reason I’m curious is that seeing how easy it is to get to the action, if one could fully remove individual keys, it would be easy for the user to perform some basic repairs/adjustments without having to call-in a tech only to see him tilt this or compress that on/under a key. “Hey, I could’ve done that myself”.
It seems as if most issues with Kawai actions usually have to do with key warping (expanding/contracting), bent/misaligned pins (at pivot and under keys), and other issues having to do specifically with individual keys rather than the more complex components of the action mechanism.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/27/18 04:45 PM
Originally Posted by Pete14
Thanks. The reason I’m curious is that seeing how easy it is to get to the action, if one could fully remove individual keys, it would be easy for the user to perform some basic repairs/adjustments without having to call-in a tech only to see him tilt this or compress that on/under a key. “Hey, I could’ve done that myself”.


I think in this thread you'll find a lot of people who think a lot like you, at least for the basic stuff wink

Though with a lot of the traditional action/key regulation issues I feel I would want to know how to do it the "correct" way rather than accidentally muck something up with improper glue/sanding/etc.
Posted By: Deus_Ex_Machina Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/27/18 08:02 PM
Does anybody have the software to update the NV10?
I would like to update my NV10 to 1.0.2.
I'd be curious to see what the differences are
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/27/18 08:25 PM
I would contact your Kawai Germany (or EU) office and ask them.

As for what is updated, I think you can get an idea from the CA-78/98 1.0.2 update thread on this forum:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...re-update-now-available.html#Post2703626
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/27/18 08:43 PM
Originally Posted by Deus_Ex_Machina
Does anybody have the software to update the NV10?
I would like to update my NV10 to 1.0.2.
I'd be curious to see what the differences are

I got it from Kawai Germany. Didn't notice much of a difference though (it takes ~2 hours to install!).
Posted By: Deus_Ex_Machina Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/27/18 11:44 PM
Thanks you guys.
I contacted them this morning. No answer yet.
I was just curious if somebody could just send it to me.
Posted By: Osho Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/28/18 05:25 AM
Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by Deus_Ex_Machina
Does anybody have the software to update the NV10?
I would like to update my NV10 to 1.0.2.
I'd be curious to see what the differences are

I got it from Kawai Germany. Didn't notice much of a difference though (it takes ~2 hours to install!).

That is scary long - what if one loses electrical power in that time frame? You have a dead brick piano!

Osho
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/28/18 06:12 AM
Originally Posted by Osho
Originally Posted by JoBert
(it takes ~2 hours to install!).

That is scary long - what if one loses electrical power in that time frame? You have a dead brick piano!

I don't think there's any danger of that.
The update comes in three parts: The first part is the actual firmware update. That is very quick, as usual (<1min). The other parts are for the UI. The first of those takes ~10min, the second takes ~1-2 hours.
The firmware update is independent from the two UI updates, i.e. the piano still works if the firmware is already updated but the UI is not (I know that from personal experience). So if the upgrade fails during one of the longer running UI updates, you can simply restart it from the beginning.
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/28/18 07:17 AM
Hello Deus_Ex_Machina, welcome to the forum!

Originally Posted by Deus_Ex_Machina
I contacted them this morning. No answer yet.
I was just curious if somebody could just send it to me.


The NV10 software update should only be distributed by Kawai dealers/distributors.
It's also a good opportunity for dealers to communicate with their NV10 customers to ensure that they are fully satisfied with the instrument etc.

Originally Posted by Osho
Originally Posted by JoBert
I got it from Kawai Germany. Didn't notice much of a difference though (it takes ~2 hours to install!).

That is scary long - what if one loses electrical power in that time frame? You have a dead brick piano!


As with the CA98/CA78, the NV10 update process requires three stages.
The first stage updates the instrument's main CPU software, and completes in under a minute.
The second and third stages updates the instrument's touchscreen and requires considerably longer (depending on the contents of the update).

However, there are fail-safes in place at each stage to prevent damaging the instrument. In the event that one of the update stages fails, it's just a case of turning the instrument off and retrying that stage.

I hope this alleviates and concerns.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/28/18 07:18 AM
Ah, JoBert beat me too it. wink
Posted By: Deus_Ex_Machina Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/28/18 03:27 PM
I got an email from Kawai Germany today with the update and instructions on how to do it.
They weren't kidding about those two hours.
But with a usb thumb drive and the ability to press all three pedals at the same time, you're golden.

Speaking of the pedals: I told the Kawai rep about my right pedal squeaking a bit when depressing it completely, and he got right back to me, apologizing that the expert technician is unavailable at the moment to to Easter (which is a very normal thing here: holiday season)
But he'd be getting back to me on Tuesday (yeah, Monday's a holiday, too) when he's back in.
For me, Kawai's customer service has been stellar so far. I almost felt bad I said anything because I didn't want to inconvenience these nice people ;-)
Posted By: Deus_Ex_Machina Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/28/18 05:35 PM
One more question:
Does anybody know how to copy a song from internal memory to a usb drive?
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/28/18 06:59 PM
You need to record it to the USB in Pianist Mode. Or you can copy it in Sound mode. You can not copy it in Pianist Mode.
Posted By: akc42 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/28/18 08:57 PM
Originally Posted by TomLC
You need to record it to the USB in Pianist Mode. Or you can copy it in Sound mode. You can not copy it in Pianist Mode.


Can you not do what I do on my CA67 - play back the recorded song and convert it to Audio as it does it?
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/28/18 09:07 PM
Originally Posted by akc42
Originally Posted by TomLC
You need to record it to the USB in Pianist Mode. Or you can copy it in Sound mode. You can not copy it in Pianist Mode.


Can you not do what I do on my CA67 - play back the recorded song and convert it to Audio as it does it?


You can in Sound Mode, which is the same as on your CA67. But not in the new Pianist Mode. If you plug in a USB drive, you can record to that. I know: kind of odd. It has occurred to me that the Pianist Mode is targeted to compete with the AG buyers who are not so concerned with the electronic options. But instead want to practice piano on an authentic action.
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/28/18 09:47 PM
I made a lengthy post about the recording options way earlier in this thread, here:
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...wai-novus-nv10-hands-on.html#Post2716062

The gist of it is what Tom already said: In sound mode the recorder works more or less the same as before (CA97,CA67,CS11,etc.). In pianist mode, you cannot save the internal recording to USB. The only way to get an internal recording in pianist mode "out" of the piano is to make the piano play it back and record the line out signal.

My recommendation for pianist mode is to simply always have a USB stick connected and record directly to the stick (preferably in WAV format) and only use the internal recorder for throw-away recordings that you don't plan to keep anyway (e.g. to record a passage during practice for analyzing, etc.).
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/28/18 11:26 PM
Originally Posted by JoBert


My recommendation for pianist mode is to simply always have a USB stick connected and record directly to the stick (preferably in WAV format) and only use the internal recorder for throw-away recordings that you don't plan to keep anyway (e.g. to record a passage during practice for analyzing, etc.).


That is exactly what I do. You can format it from the Settings menu. It is actually quite convenient.
Posted By: Osho Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/30/18 05:48 AM
Originally Posted by TomLC
Nice job, JoBert. Ya gotta keep it clean. White keys, 10.2 inches.

I had the action of the 1981 Mason & Hamlin BB (7' semi-concert) grand out yesterday for a tech to inspect prior to some regulation work on it. I measured the white keys pivot. It was 9.75 inches - just a reference FYI.

Osho
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/30/18 03:06 PM
Originally Posted by Osho
Originally Posted by TomLC
Nice job, JoBert. Ya gotta keep it clean. White keys, 10.2 inches.

I had the action of the 1981 Mason & Hamlin BB (7' semi-concert) grand out yesterday for a tech to inspect prior to some regulation work on it. I measured the white keys pivot. It was 9.75 inches - just a reference FYI.

Osho


Thanks Osho. So, I'm sure this quote can in NO way be misinterpreted, but I honestly feel that any (pivot) length greater than 9-9.5" is probably just fine wink

One thing I just thought about this morning. As much as the NV10 boasts fully functional damper weighting, it doesn't carry over to sostenuto. I.e., if you sustain a note with sos, that's done in software entirely, like a standard digital piano, and physically the key damper has not been engaged--you can still detect the impact of the back action, as well as the increased weighting of the key, whereas on an acoustic the damper would have been physically raised. I've used sos less than a handful of times so I honestly don't miss this "omission" at all, but thought it would be interesting to mention.
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/30/18 03:40 PM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
As much as the NV10 boasts fully functional damper weighting, it doesn't carry over to sostenuto.

Nice of Kawai, isn't it, that they left something for Yamaha to innovate? So that when Yamaha comes out with the N3Y (or N3Z?) that has damper weights, they can implement and claim "the first realistic damper weight simulation that also applies to the Sostenuto pedal!" wink
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/30/18 03:44 PM
I'm still waiting for a key frame that shifts to the right a few mm when una corda is pressed! Cmon Casio and Roland, here is your chance!
Posted By: UKchap75 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/30/18 04:25 PM
My right pedal squeaked too. My dealer that I bought the piano from came out straight away. The fix took about 60 seconds, and has been perfect since. Apparently the fix is exactly as you would fix a squeaky acoustic piano pedal.

UK Kawai also sent me the 1.0.2 update. I've only had a very brief play this morning, so not much time to check the effects. It may just be me but I think the sound it a touch cleaner of digital nuances. It just sounds amazing. The Kawai sound is a bit more musically colourful compared to the Yamaha. Just that bit more acoustic. BTW I've only ever had Yamaha products (HS8 organ, ES1 synth, P255 piano) so I'm not a yamaha hater at all. I appreciate the P255 is no Avantgrand. I have played the NU1, N1 and N2. I liked them. Strangely, the NU1 made me smile more than the N1 and N2. N1 was too quiet. N2 was fine. But kept going back onto the NU1. This was before the NU1X and N3X were out. I had wanted the N3X due to it being current tech. But didn't really want some thing that big. There is a new video of the N2X online and the sound seems a bit too clean when you listen to the Kawai. I'm sure it sounds lovely if you actually play it for real. But I must say that for nearly half the price the NV10 is just everything I wanted. I love the touch. It just feels like a lovely acoustic piano. Some reports say there is lateral key movement compared to a yamaha. My NV10 had no lateral key movement. I have still not played my acoustic baby grand since getting the NV10. I prefer the lighter touch of the Kawai over the Yamaha. Just my personal preference. It reminds me of a Steinway I played.

On the previous page (21) someone asked me where I got my NV10. I work near Cambridge, so got mine from Millers. I appreciate there are cheaper places online, but they were excellent, so I'm glad I got mine from them. They jumped on getting the NV10 into their shop for me to try, and delivered it quickly. They have sorted out the squeaky pedal and 1.0.2 update. For something that isn't cheap having local support and supporting local business is very important.
Posted By: Osho Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/30/18 04:30 PM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
I'm still waiting for a key frame that shifts to the right a few mm when una corda is pressed! Cmon Casio and Roland, here is your chance!

I am actually fine if it doesn't shift to the right. There are a few 'features' of the actual acoustic grands that I wouldn't mind losing - and this is one of it.

Another such 'feature' is the constant need to tune - which hybrid DPs can declare success on smile.

I also would like if there is no need to regulate the AvantGrand/Novus actions periodically and that they are as consistent and uniform for their entire life as on day one - I do not know if this is the case with AvantGrands that have been out there for several years.

Osho
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/30/18 05:14 PM
Originally Posted by UKchap75
My right pedal squeaked too. My dealer that I bought the piano from came out straight away. The fix took about 60 seconds, and has been perfect since. Apparently the fix is exactly as you would fix a squeaky acoustic piano pedal.

I'm curious, what is the fix (so I know for the future)? Did you see what he did?
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/30/18 05:15 PM
The AGs (hybrids generally?) seem similar to grands in this instance. Most people never regulate through the life of the instrument, and some people insist it needs it multiple times, starting day one.

I think the one factor is that action feel aside, the tonal character will always remain uniform on a digital so that will relieve some fraction of the need for regulation.
Posted By: Deus_Ex_Machina Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/30/18 09:36 PM
Originally Posted by UKchap75
There is a new video of the N2X online


Video of the N2X? When, where? Want! Please!
Posted By: Chrispy Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/30/18 10:05 PM
Originally Posted by Deus_Ex_Machina
Originally Posted by UKchap75
There is a new video of the N2X online


Video of the N2X? When, where? Want! Please!


Yeah, you'd have quite the scoop if this were true. Are you sure you didn't mean N3X?
Posted By: MooseMiller Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/31/18 02:46 PM
Hi all, first post but I have been lurking for quite a while smile
Thought this thread was a great place to start as I took delivery of an NV10 2 days ago.

May I ask a question please to those that own one already:
I've noticed an electrical interference like noise through the speakers (or headphones if plugged in) on start up, or whenever the touchscreen is used. It sounds like a slight buzzing and is definitely coming through the speakers.
When you first switch on, it makes these noises while the UI screen boots up. Following this, it will make a noise each and every time you either press, drag etc on the touchscreen.
The rest of the time it is fine so once fired up and any menu selected, there is no adverse effect on playability or anything
Does your NV10 do this? I can't believe this is normal

It is not a big issue, but if it is a defect, I don't want it getting worse over time and at the end of the day, it's an expensive (to me) piece of gear I have invested in
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/31/18 03:03 PM
I just turned the volume all the way up on mine and turned it on, with my ear nearly pressed to the front left speaker. Other than an expected persistent minimal white/idle noise from high volume, there is absolutely zero noise during boot up, and no noise during touchscreen operation.

You might try a different power outlet or surge protector? Or remove any other devices that may be sharing the same ground connection as the piano?
Posted By: MooseMiller Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/31/18 03:23 PM
Thanks Gombessa - I will try a different power outlet.
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/31/18 05:35 PM
I just did the same experiment as Gombessa and can confirm the result: Except for a very silent speaker background noise (that I can only hear if my ear is <=20cm from the speaker) I hear nothing.

However, I do remember hearing that phenomenon, but I'm not sure if I ever heard it with my piano at home or only with the one in the shop. If the former, then it must have gone away on it's own, which would be kind of strange. So it probably was at the shop.
Posted By: MooseMiller Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 03/31/18 07:17 PM
I played around a little more and plugged it in to a different power source as Gombessa suggested but still the same. It didn't occur to me to check the volume though and yes, it varies according to volume control. So if turned up full it is quite loud but with the volume all the way down you cannot hear it at all. I had noticed it immediately from a playing position at around half volume. Also, at playing position it is most noticeable from the bottom speaker. At half volume you would definitely notice it without having to go 20cm close.

But interestingly, assuming half volume, I'm not sure if you would hear it in a shop as the ambient shop noise would probably mask it unless really, really quiet

I'll give the dealer a call on Tuesday after the Easter break as there is also an issue with the right hand pedal where it has no real spring tension and makes a loud acoustic 'clunk' from the piano body when pressed.

Aside from that though, it really is a great DP smile


Originally Posted by JoBert
I just did the same experiment as Gombessa and can confirm the result: Except for a very silent speaker background noise (that I can only hear if my ear is <=20cm from the speaker) I hear nothing.

However, I do remember hearing that phenomenon, but I'm not sure if I ever heard it with my piano at home or only with the one in the shop. If the former, then it must have gone away on it's own, which would be kind of strange. So it probably was at the shop.
Posted By: NormB Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/01/18 02:36 PM
Quote
I just turned the volume all the way up on mine and turned it on, with my ear nearly pressed to the front left speaker. Other than an expected persistent minimal white/idle noise from high volume, there is absolutely zero noise during boot up, and no noise during touchscreen operation.


It is a little disappointing that Kawai would use an internal amp with a high enough noise level for you to hear white noise through an internal speaker.

On the touchscreen operation noise I definitely recall at least one non-DP situation where I heard this. I suspect some kind of capacitive coupling here: perhaps a low level audio input cable being too close to the touchscreen's 'brain'.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/01/18 02:49 PM
I've never encountered a speaker that didn't have *some* audible difference between on and off if you strain to measure it. With the NV10 it's entirely inaudible unless you literally have your ear right next to the speaker grille. Not being an audiophile I can't say whether that is exceptional, horrible or something in-between, but it's better than just about any other audio system I've otherwise heard. At anything more than a few cm a away from the center of the cone (including normal playing distance of course) it's literally silent.
Posted By: NormB Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/01/18 04:15 PM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
I've never encountered a speaker that didn't have *some* audible difference between on and off if you strain to measure it. With the NV10 it's entirely inaudible unless you literally have your ear right next to the speaker grille. Not being an audiophile I can't say whether that is exceptional, horrible or something in-between, but it's better than just about any other audio system I've otherwise heard. At anything more than a few cm a away from the center of the cone (including normal playing distance of course) it's literally silent.


Good to hear that this hiss is for practical purposes inaudible.I confess to coming at this from an audiophile perspective, where today source noise levels are often 120 dB down (sometimes reaching 140 dB down), and good amp noise levels are 100 dB down.

How about the headphone output? Most modern DPs tend to be very good at keeping noise in their headphone amps really, really low...
Posted By: MooseMiller Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/01/18 05:20 PM
Originally Posted by NormB
....How about the headphone output? Most modern DPs tend to be very good at keeping noise in their headphone amps really, really low......


Nope - not a squeak with headphones. And you would really have to be only a few cm away from the speakers to hear only the slightest white noise when on full volume. Which makes the issue I have all the more obvious when using the menu
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/01/18 05:42 PM
The headphones are completely silent for me too, but TBH that is the way it is with any DP, even a $500 PX150 wink
Posted By: UKchap75 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/02/18 03:20 PM
He used a pointed instrument (like a compass tip) to gently tug at the felt around the vertical sustain pedal rod. Apparently acoustic pianos do this too.
Posted By: UKchap75 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/02/18 03:27 PM
turn down the tiny input gain knob right underneath on the rear underside plug panel. mine was turned up to max and gave the same problem. also when scrolling in a certain menu. turned it right down and no more noise. voila.
Posted By: MooseMiller Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/02/18 07:34 PM
Originally Posted by UKchap75
turn down the tiny input gain knob right underneath on the rear underside plug panel. mine was turned up to max and gave the same problem. also when scrolling in a certain menu. turned it right down and no more noise. voila.


Thank you UKchap75 - that seemed to sort it smile

Now just got to get my damper pedal fixed and I'll be golden smile
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/02/18 07:37 PM
Do you mean the "Line-in" volume knob?
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/02/18 07:41 PM
Good call on the line in volume knob, ukchap!

Originally Posted by MooseMiller
I'll give the dealer a call on Tuesday after the Easter break as there is also an issue with the right hand pedal where it has no real spring tension and makes a loud acoustic 'clunk' from the piano body when pressed.


Moose, is this the same issue I chronicled in this thread? http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...wai-novus-nv10-hands-on.html#Post2715645

The damper pedal either sagged, or would clunk a bit as it fell off manually raised to the level of the other pedals. And there was zero tension on the chrome pedal rod when at rest.
Posted By: MooseMiller Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/02/18 08:17 PM
Originally Posted by Gombessa

Moose, is this the same issue I chronicled in this thread? http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...wai-novus-nv10-hands-on.html#Post2715645

The damper pedal either sagged, or would clunk a bit as it fell off manually raised to the level of the other pedals. And there was zero tension on the chrome pedal rod when at rest.


Similar - but not quite. There is a very slight sag but I doubt if I would have noticed this. And a few mm of play in the pedal. and the rod has a bit of play in it. However, the main symptom for me is that there is virtually no tension in the pedal - it's either on or off - and you could easily depress it with your little finger say. Also, when you depress the pedal, a loud audible 'clunk' is heard from the main DP body.

Interesting thread though, and when I look at JoBert's excellent pictures slightly further down the thread; If I were to hazard a guess, it would be the spring (with red cord - number 4 in the third picture) that is the problem. It would explain the lack of tension, and also the weight of the wooden lever would be enough to return the pedal maybe. Although the clunk noise I'm not sure about.
I'll see what the dealer comes back with - If no engineer is forthcoming I may have a look inside and see
Posted By: MooseMiller Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/02/18 08:22 PM
Originally Posted by TomLC
Do you mean the "Line-in" volume knob?

Yes - this is the one I just adjusted to make the noise inaudible. Easy way to check is to turn it to max and you should hear the noise that I reported (main volume at half or more)
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/02/18 08:30 PM
I turned up the main volume to max and the line in volume to max. I could just barely hear, with my ear on the top speaker, a sound almost like a sea shell.
Posted By: MooseMiller Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/02/18 08:54 PM
Originally Posted by TomLC
I turned up the main volume to max and the line in volume to max. I could just barely hear, with my ear on the top speaker, a sound almost like a sea shell.

Hmmm - perhaps it is just amplifying an interference noise then. But I'm OK with this.

Thanks
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/02/18 09:50 PM
Originally Posted by MooseMiller

Similar - but not quite. There is a very slight sag but I doubt if I would have noticed this. And a few mm of play in the pedal. and the rod has a bit of play in it. However, the main symptom for me is that there is virtually no tension in the pedal - it's either on or off - and you could easily depress it with your little finger say. Also, when you depress the pedal, a loud audible 'clunk' is heard from the main DP body.

Interesting thread though, and when I look at JoBert's excellent pictures slightly further down the thread; If I were to hazard a guess, it would be the spring (with red cord - number 4 in the third picture) that is the problem. It would explain the lack of tension, and also the weight of the wooden lever would be enough to return the pedal maybe. Although the clunk noise I'm not sure about.
I'll see what the dealer comes back with - If no engineer is forthcoming I may have a look inside and see


I think you may have a real issue with your damper. I don't believe spring you're talking about actually provides any significant tension. Most of the weight of the damper pedal is from the fact that it has to lift a 3ft aluminum rail which is itself holding up 5-10lb of damper hinges and weights. The fact that you can depress the pedal the entire way with your pinky means the rail isn't being pushed up. It's possible the wooden peg that actually lifts the damper rail has become dislodged and the damper mechanism isn't actually engaging?

When you depress the damper pedal, can you tell if the key weighting decreases at all? While holding the damper down, when you very lightly press a key down, can you still feel the subtle engagement point of the damper? It's easiest to tell by playing E6 and F6 (since E6 has a damper but F6 doesn't).
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/03/18 12:49 AM
Hello MooseMiller, welcome to the forum, and congratulations on the purchase of your NV10!

Originally Posted by MooseMiller
I just adjusted [the Line In volume knob] to make the noise inaudible.


I'm glad to read that this matter was easily resolved. Good call by UKchap75!
May I ask if you had adjusted the Line In volume knob position after receiving the NV10?
Also, do you have any devices connected to the Line In connector?
If not, it's probably best to set the Line In volume knob to the minimum position.

Regarding the damper pedal mechanism:

Originally Posted by MooseMiller
...the main symptom for me is that there is virtually no tension in the pedal - it's either on or off - and you could easily depress it with your little finger say. Also, when you depress the pedal, a loud audible 'clunk' is heard from the main DP body.


As Gombessa notes, there seems to be a problem with the damper mechanism. If you have not done so already, my recommendation would be to contact your dealer to have this matter checked by a piano technician.

May I ask where you are based, and if the NV10 was purchased from a local dealer, please?
If you would prefer not to provide this information publicly, please feel free to contact me via a private message.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: MooseMiller Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/03/18 07:03 AM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
I think you may have a real issue with your damper. I don't believe spring you're talking about actually provides any significant tension. Most of the weight of the damper pedal is from the fact that it has to lift a 3ft aluminum rail which is itself holding up 5-10lb of damper hinges and weights. The fact that you can depress the pedal the entire way with your pinky means the rail isn't being pushed up. It's possible the wooden peg that actually lifts the damper rail has become dislodged and the damper mechanism isn't actually engaging?

This is a good point. After looking at the pictures earlier, if I were to close my eyes I would imagine that the peg missing the hole is what is felt and heard. I'll see what happens today with the dealer but if not, curiosity may make me have a look inside. I'm reluctant to do this yet as it's new - and therefore warranted - etc

Quote
When you depress the damper pedal, can you tell if the key weighting decreases at all? While holding the damper down, when you very lightly press a key down, can you still feel the subtle engagement point of the damper? It's easiest to tell by playing E6 and F6 (since E6 has a damper but F6 doesn't).

I tried this but to be honest, it all felt the same. But this could be because I do not really know what I am feeling for here
Posted By: MooseMiller Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/03/18 07:10 AM
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Hello MooseMiller, welcome to the forum, and congratulations on the purchase of your NV10!

Thank you James

Quote
May I ask if you had adjusted the Line In volume knob position after receiving the NV10?
Also, do you have any devices connected to the Line In connector?
If not, it's probably best to set the Line In volume knob to the minimum position.

I hadn't adjusted the line in knob. To be honest I didn't even notice it!
Nothing connected to LI and I've now set it to minimum

Quote
Regarding the damper pedal mechanism:
As Gombessa notes, there seems to be a problem with the damper mechanism. If you have not done so already, my recommendation would be to contact your dealer to have this matter checked by a piano technician.
May I ask where you are based, and if the NV10 was purchased from a local dealer, please?

I've sent an email to my dealer and hoping for a response today as it is the first day back after the holiday weekend and will follow up with them. I'm based in the UK and purchased the NV10 from them
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/03/18 07:47 AM
Hello MooseMiller,

Thank you for confirming those points.

I'm confident that your dealer will be able resolve whatever is preventing the damper pedal mechanism from working correctly. However, if you require any assistance, please do let me know.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: UKchap75 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/03/18 10:08 PM
Update on the User Tone settings to reduce the slight buzzing in high pitch. This effect is exacerbated by certain sounds. Such as Full. Tonight I also turned the Mid-High to -2 dB. I still have High at -4 dB. This worked very well on Full sound. I may even be able to turn the High back up to -3 dB? The Full sound has a much longer resonance/reverb echo which may not help. But I like this on certain songs so don’t want to reduce it. The User Tone definitely has the best results. Now over 99% removal of buzzing I think.
Posted By: PianoGuyStuart Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/04/18 11:12 AM
Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by Osho
It looks like everyone is busy playing NV10s last day or so! - not much chatter today smile.

OK, to add a bit of chatter, let me share my newest mini-mod of the NV10, this time of the volume knob:

What I liked better with the CA97 than the NV10 was, that the CA97's volume slider has visible position markers. I usually play via speakers, but still sometimes via headphones, and the two modes require different volume settings. With the CA97, I could simply memorize the slider positions for the two volume settings for speakers and headphones, helped by the markers. The NV10's almost maker-free volume knob does not make this so easy.

Actually, I got a lucky break in so far, that the correct setting for my headphones is with the knob at the 12-o'clock position (i.e. 50% volume) which is relatively easy to see via the small white dot on the knob. But for playing with speakers, the correct-for-me volume settings is somewhere at the 2-o'clock-ish position. Which is kind of fiddly to get right without bending down very low under the piano - and I'm kind of picky with such small details. When I play, I want the volume always at the same setting, as close as possible.

So... I made another one of my zip-tie "mods":

I put a small black zip-tie around the volume knob (of course with the end cut off). The knob is metal and has small grooves around the circumference, for a better grip when turning it, so the zip-tie stays in the same position without sliding around, as it "anchors" into these grooves (or rather the inner edge of the little "buckle" of the zip-tie does this), even without having to pull the tie extra tight. I then pushed the zip-tie all the way back, almost flush with the panel, where, by virtue of being black, it is almost invisible unless you really examine the knob closely. I can actually slide off the zip-tie quite easily and slide it on again at a slightly different rotation. I used this to put the zip-tie into a position where the little buckle is about at the 12-o'clock position if the volume knob has the correct volume position. Then I cut out a tiny little rectangle from the sticky part of a post-it note, of the same size as the little zip-tie buckle, and attached that little "sticker" into the same 12-o'clock position, like you can see in the first picture below.

[Linked Image]

Note, that the volume knob position in that picture is not the correct position for playing with speakers, instead it's the headphones position where by coincidence the little white dot on the knob itself also lines up with the 12-o'click position, i.e. with my little sticker. So that makes it even easier to find the headphones position.

However, I actually did attach the little post-it sticker to find the playing-with-speakers volume position more easily. And it now makes it easier, because I simply have to turn the knob to the position where the little zip-tie buckle completely obscures the little yellow sticker, as seen in the second picture:

[Linked Image]

That is quite easy to see even when seated at the piano and only bending down the head slightly, so it is now a quick adjustment to make. Plus as an additional advantage, since that's the usual position of the knob, you usually don't even see the little sticker.

You may (probably rightfully so) think that this is a stupid little thing, but for me, it's a nice little improvement. smile

BTW, for other NV10 owners: While doing all this I realized, that the panel with the sockets, the volume knob and the on/off switch was covered with one of those protective films, which is not easy to see, as, at least in my case, the film matched up so perfectly with the panel edges. That film is already removed in the above pictures.


Actually, reading this thread, and even without owning one of these (I wish!) I can see that one big improvement would be to have separate volume knobs for both headphones and the speakers.

It is sort of annoying to have to change the volume every time you switch between the two.

It would make much more sense if there were simply two volume knobs, so that you would most likely only have to adjust it once, and then wouldn't have to change it again.
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/04/18 12:05 PM
Originally Posted by PianoGuyStuart
Actually, reading this thread, and even without owning one of these (I wish!) I can see that one big improvement would be to have separate volume knobs for both headphones and the speakers.

That would be a nifty feature. But is there any digital piano on the market that has this?
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/04/18 12:08 PM
Originally Posted by JoBert
That would be a nifty feature. But is there any digital piano on the market that has this?


I believe Roland DPs that utilise digital volume controls (e.g. +/- buttons) allow the speaker and headphone volume to be set independently.

This is obviously not possible using an (analogue) volume knob of slider with a fixed range of movement.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: mcoll Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/04/18 12:13 PM
Yes, all relatively recent Rolands have this, as James already stated. Starting with the f130r, rp401r, hp504, 6, 8 etc. And yes, it was very useful when I was still using the internal sound engine.
Posted By: Tyr Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/07/18 12:25 AM
Currently considering jumping back on the kawai ship with a Novus. How are your impressions so far? smile
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/07/18 12:34 AM
Originally Posted by Tyr
Currently considering jumping back on the kawai ship with a Novus. How are your impressions so far? smile


My impressions are that it's definitely a DP/hybrid you need to try!

Before the NV10, the Yamaha AvantGrand was the only real game in town. Acoustic grands vary in action and tone more than most digitals do, but in the hybrid space there was only one real choice. With the NV10, that's all changed. You can play both and decide if a hybrid is for you, and/or whether you like the Yamaha or Kawai action better.

After trying the N1/N2/N3X and an NV10, I bought the Kawai on the spot, and I play it every day. It's one of the highlights of my day in fact, I simply look forward to sitting down at it.
.
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/07/18 06:40 AM
Originally Posted by Tyr
Currently considering jumping back on the kawai ship with a Novus. How are your impressions so far? smile

I've had my Novus for two months now and I can say that I would buy it again in a heartbeat.
Posted By: UKchap75 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/07/18 09:26 AM
I completely agree with Gombessa and JoBert. Had mine nearly two months and play every day too. Beautiful piano.
Posted By: MikePianoLover Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/07/18 11:23 AM
Hello UKchap75,

In previous posts, you mentioned the following:
---I've had my NV10 for nearly six weeks now. I've not played my acoustic baby grand once in that time. Yet again last night, the touch, feel and expression possible on the NV10 had me almost in tears whilst playing. Love it love it love it.
---I have still not played my acoustic baby grand since getting the NV10.

These comments you made are intriguing to me. I always thought that people having an acoustic piano, in particular for you a baby grand piano, they always would prefer the sound of an acoustic piano to the sound of a digital piano.

Therefore, it would be interesting if you would not mind answering the questions below.
1) Could you elaborate on the reasons why you prefer using your Kawai NV10 instead of your acoustic baby grand, apart from the fact that it is natural when you have a new instrument to be focused on playing it exclusively at the beginning?
2) Do you use the Kawai NV10 mostly with headphones or mostly without headphones?
What headphones do you use?
3) What types of music do you like to play at the piano, classical or non-classical?
How long have you been playing the piano?

Thanks for your feedback on these questions.

Have a great time enjoying the Kawai Novus NV10 that seems really a great piano.
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/07/18 01:25 PM
Originally Posted by Tyr
Currently considering jumping back on the kawai ship with a Novus. How are your impressions so far? smile


Tyr, If you can find one you should definitely try it and compare it to the N1/N2. My dealer in LA, which is where the Kawai distributor for the US is located, received 3 from the first shipment of 60 to the US. I got his last one. Although he has a close personal relationship with the guys at Kawai, he hasn't been able to get any more. He said most of the first shipment were pre-sold. It appears, he said, that even Kawai did not expect the response they received to the NV-10.
Posted By: Tyr Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/07/18 05:42 PM
Nice to hear guys.

@TomLC: Luckily here in Germany, i have a dozen of shops within my reach with a NV10 in stock. smile
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/07/18 07:18 PM
I talked to the Kawai service tech today. He told me that he didn't think they even got 60 in the US. But he is expecting a new shipment. soon. Kawai just can not keep up with demand, he said.

He lives a couple of miles from me, and came by today to replace a couple of wires. The reason you guys hear a noise in the speakers is a wire in the back, and another under the display. He kept listening to the top left speaker for that noise. MooseMiller was talking about. So you may want to call your dealer, or Kawai support and ask them about it.
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/07/18 07:52 PM
Originally Posted by Tyr
Nice to hear guys.

@TomLC: Luckily here in Germany, i have a dozen of shops within my reach with a NV10 in stock. smile


I understand that the NV-10 was available in Europe three months before it was released in the US. So I expect you are on your second or third shipment. The US is waiting for the second.
Regardless, you should try it. It sure feels like the Kawai's I have played in the dealers shop.
Posted By: MooseMiller Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/07/18 07:56 PM
Originally Posted by TomLC
....He lives a couple of miles from me, and came by today to replace a couple of wires. The reason you guys hear a noise in the speakers is a wire in the back, and another under the display. He kept listening to the top left speaker for that noise. MooseMiller was talking about. So you may want to call your dealer, or Kawai support and ask them about it.

Interesting... You say he replaced the wires (rather than insulate, or re-attach them)? May well be some kind of shielding issue then
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/07/18 08:13 PM
Originally Posted by MooseMiller
Originally Posted by TomLC
....He lives a couple of miles from me, and came by today to replace a couple of wires. The reason you guys hear a noise in the speakers is a wire in the back, and another under the display. He kept listening to the top left speaker for that noise. MooseMiller was talking about. So you may want to call your dealer, or Kawai support and ask them about it.

Interesting... You say he replaced the wires (rather than insulate, or re-attach them)? May well be some kind of shielding issue then




Yes, he said they were not insulated So he replaced them with insulated wire. No big deal, but amazed Kawai sent them out like that.
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/07/18 08:22 PM
Originally Posted by TomLC
I understand that the NV-10 was available in Europe three months before it was released in the US.

Not in Germany. The first NV10s here were available late January 2018 (some shops as late as 2nd/3rd February). I kept a close eye on the availability and I'm pretty certain that that was the first batch here (one of which I snagged). And Gombessa got his only a day or two later than I got mine, so the the first ones were available here and in the US at about the same time.

The availability right now is also not quite as rosy as Tyr presents it. Speaking about the large online shops: Yes, some still list it as available, but some (including Thomann and the shop where I bought) list it as "next delivery / in stock estimated for end of April" (there's even one who estimates delivery by end of May, but that could be deliberately "pessimistic"). But of course there may be smaller dealers too who still have it in stock, if you know who to ask, or one or two units still available at one or the other larger shop, but "dozens of shops with it in stock" seems a bit optimistic to me (but in the end that doesn't matter, as, if you want one, you only need to find one who has it in stock).
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/07/18 08:31 PM
Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by TomLC
I understand that the NV-10 was available in Europe three months before it was released in the US.

Not in Germany. The first NV10s here were available late January 2018 (some shops as late as 2nd/3rd February). I kept a close eye on the availability and I'm pretty certain that that was the first batch here (one of which I snagged). And Gombessa got his only a day or two later than I got mine, so the the first ones were available here and in the US at about the same time.

The availability right now is also not quite as rosy as Tyr presents it. Speaking about the large online shops: Yes, some still list it as available, but some (including Thomann and the shop where I bought) list it as "next delivery / in stock estimated for end of April" (there's even one who estimates delivery by end of May, but that could be deliberately "pessimistic"). But of course there may be smaller dealers too who still have it in stock, if you know who to ask, or one or two units still available at one or the other larger shop, but "dozens of shops with it in stock" seems a bit optimistic to me (but in the end that doesn't matter, as, if you want one, you only need to find one who has it in stock).


That's what I get for posting third hand knowledge! (Maybe the UK?) But he is the local service rep for Kawai's acoustic piano's. He had to learn about the NV-10 since he handles call's that involve key action or pedal mechanism issues.
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/07/18 08:36 PM
Originally Posted by TomLC
Yes, he said they were not insulated So he replaced them with insulated wire. No big deal, but amazed Kawai sent them out like that.

Are you talking about that noise that was reported by some that they heard when navigating the touch screen (that goes away if you turn down the line in knob)?
My piano doesn't have that, not even with line in and master volume both turned to max. So either its wires are better insulated or routed differently.

But to be honest, when I decided to buy a unit from the first batch, I was fully aware that I would be an early adopter and I honestly expected to experience such teething problems. I've never seen a piece of technical equipment where the first batch of units didn't have such problems (oh, I still "fondly" remember the jet-like fan noise and red-ring-of-death affinity of my Xbox 360 that I bought on release day...). I bought it anyway, and would do it again smile.
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/07/18 08:42 PM
Originally Posted by TomLC
That's what I get for posting third hand knowledge! (Maybe the UK?)

Well, of course I was only refering to Germany. I remember that a forum member posted a play test in a Norwegian shop in early/mid December. That's Europe too - but of course only ~1 1/2 months earlier. 3 months earlier than in the US would have been end of October/beginning of November, barely after the official release announcement. That would have to have been some very fast stealth delivery to Europe... wink
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/07/18 08:42 PM
Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by TomLC
Yes, he said they were not insulated So he replaced them with insulated wire. No big deal, but amazed Kawai sent them out like that.

Are you talking about that noise that was reported by some that they heard when navigating the touch screen (that goes away if you turn down the line in knob)?
My piano doesn't have that, not even with line in and master volume both turned to max. So either its wires are better insulated or routed differently.

But to be honest, when I decided to buy a unit from the first batch, I was fully aware that I would be an early adopter and I honestly expected to experience such teething problems. I've never seen a piece of technical equipment where the first batch of units didn't have such problems (oh, I still "fondly" remember the jet-like fan noise and red-ring-of-death affinity of my Xbox 360 that I bought on release day...). I bought it anyway, and would do it again smile.


Hey, JoBert! I agree. I didn't complain about any noise. I told him I didn't hear it. But I guess he is going to replace everyone's here so that there isn't an issue. I am thrilled with the customer service I have seen from Kawai.
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/07/18 08:46 PM
Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by TomLC
That's what I get for posting third hand knowledge! (Maybe the UK?)

Well, of course I was only refering to Germany. I remember that a forum member posted a play test in a Norwegian shop in early/mid December. That's Europe too - but of course only ~1 1/2 months earlier. 3 months earlier than in the US would have been end of October/beginning of November, barely after the official release announcement. That would have to have been some very fast stealth delivery to Europe... wink



Maybe he meant a "couple of months". His point was, they didn't get enough to fill the demand. It is selling like hot cakes!! And I LOVE IT. I can't wait to get up in the morning so I can play it. It is the fifth "DP" I have bought in four years. (The fourth Kawai). It will likely be the last unless I have a real life change and can get a SK2/3. That means I would be living by myself....:)

Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/07/18 08:58 PM
Originally Posted by TomLC
Maybe he meant a "couple of months". His point was, they didn't get enough to fill the demand. It is selling like hot cakes!!

Yes, sorry, I didn't want to be pedantic. Just killing time with the tablet and piano world. smile
I didn't mean to argue against the "high demand, short supply" point. As I wrote, quite a few dealers here currently don't have it in stock either, so it sounds plausible to me.
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/07/18 09:01 PM
I know for certain the dealer in LA, Pierre. has none. I got the third one of his from the first shipment into the US. And I believe the dealer in north OC did not get any yet. But please don't worry about the response. I enjoy your post, and your playing for that matter. It was interesting to see the back underside of the piano. All wires and electronics, and the woofer. Sort of ruined my perception of the grand piano I picture in my mind when I play it.
Posted By: Tyr Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/08/18 12:05 AM
Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by TomLC
I understand that the NV-10 was available in Europe three months before it was released in the US.

Not in Germany. The first NV10s here were available late January 2018 (some shops as late as 2nd/3rd February). I kept a close eye on the availability and I'm pretty certain that that was the first batch here (one of which I snagged). And Gombessa got his only a day or two later than I got mine, so the the first ones were available here and in the US at about the same time.

The availability right now is also not quite as rosy as Tyr presents it. Speaking about the large online shops: Yes, some still list it as available, but some (including Thomann and the shop where I bought) list it as "next delivery / in stock estimated for end of April"


Idk where you live but in Northrhine Westphalia (Ruhrgebiet) there are plently of them to pick up one.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/08/18 10:12 AM
A few days prior to NAMM was the earliest I've heard of in the US, with most dealers starting to take stock Feb 2-3 a Jobert mentions.

My dealer is still waiting for his next shipment (technically his third).
Posted By: UKchap75 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/08/18 03:11 PM
Hi MikePianoLover

To answer your questions:

My acoustic baby grand is a 30 year old german piano (a Niendorf), which has a beautiful cabinet and a lovely mid and upper sound. Obviously, being a baby grand the bass is lacking. I have this piano tuned every six months, and love having it tuned so it sings again. Having the Novus is like the piano has just been tuned that day.

I play a mix of classical, film scores, (and romantic pop songs..... sshhhh!). On the baby grand it can be difficult to play songs that go a long way into the bass. To the point that I would adjust some song arrangements to keep them in the mid-upper ranges, with lots of crossing fingers and hands! I can now play songs and use the entire keyboard on the Novus. The base is so tuneful. I like the subtle changes of sound that the Novus offers in it Pianist mode.

I am finding that I use three sounds inparticular. Some classical need a slightly milder sound, so I use the Classic setting. Some songs want a brighter sound but with a bit more reverb, like playing a large grand in a large hall, so I use Full setting. The romantic pop songs sound good (to me) on the Jazz setting - a bit cleaner sound. So it's great to change these for each song. It makes you play each song with different emotion.

Recently, I was fortunate that a large local historic country house has a 7 foot Steinway (that I would guess is no more than 5 years old), in a huge entrance hall (with probably 15 metre high roof). If you can play then they let you play this piano. This had a slightly distant sound, due to the room size. Along with the beautiful touch of this instrument I just played songs with a completely different emotion to at home on my baby grand. Believe it or not, the Novus has actually made me feel like I'm back on the Steinway.

After playing the Novus, getting back on the acoustic I find the touch and the pedal feel is actually lacking! Sadly! Hence I've not got back on it.

I did get some new headphones but these were closed back and I didn't like them. The sound was to close and not piano like. The headphone settings on the Novus didn't seem to make enough difference to improve them. I have my old Sennheiser 550 (very old!) but I'm fortunate that I have the Novus in my front room, which is far enough away from the lounge, and neighbours. I really love the way the base reverberates through the keyboard, so enjoying the speakers too much. I'll have to give headphones another go smile. See if I can be tempted to get a new set of Sennheiser.

I've been playing for about 30 years, however I started on the Organ. Mainly a Yamaha HS8. I only got into piano about 15 years ago.

I recently watched a video of the N3X by an owner at home. The sound (abeit only a YouTube video) just seemed very clean. I think the Kawai sound is more musically colourful with more acoustic nuances.

Hope that helps.
Posted By: Tyr Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/09/18 04:26 PM
Today i had the chance to play the Novus at my local store.

First thing, i was impressed about the size. It was huge compared to my CLP-685 at home. The cabinet is simply beautiful and feels stable. After playing the first couple of notes, i was absolutely amazed about the key action. It felt way better than expected. Very smooth touch, not too heavy or light. I didn't recognized an overly loud key action noise, at least not more than my current instrument.

Second, the sound production was awesome. After my disaster with the CA-98 and its wooden box sound, i had high hopes that the sound won't disappoint me and... it hasn't. It was enjoying to play.

One thing i wasn't sure about is how heavy the pedals are. I had to kick in strongly to keep the notes rolling.

I think Kawai did a fantastic job with this instrument and i will order one.
Posted By: ˆTomLCˆ Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/09/18 04:32 PM
Originally Posted by Tyr
Today i had the chance to play the Novus at my local store.

First thing, i was impressed about the size. It was huge compared to my CLP-685 at home. The cabinet is simply beautiful and feels stable. After playing the first couple of notes, i was absolutely amazed about the key action. It felt way better than expected. Very smooth touch, not too heavy or light. I didn't recognized an overly loud key action noise, at least not more than my current instrument.

Second, the sound production was awesome. After my disaster with the CA-98 and its wooden box sound, i had high hopes that the sound won't disappoint me and... it hasn't. It was enjoying to play.

One thing i wasn't sure about is how heavy the pedals are. I had to kick in strongly to keep the notes rolling.

I think Kawai did a fantastic job with this instrument and i will order one.


Tyr, Glad you got to try it. Just so you are aware, you can set the Half-Pedal depth. Using a CS11 prior to this, I found the pedal too heavy. I just set it to 3 (default is 5).
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/09/18 06:29 PM
Thanks for the impressions Tyr! Awesome to hear we're going to have another nv10 owner here wink

I've been playing around with the damper a lot and have ideas on a number of different adjustments. I do agree that the pedal itself is a bit on the heavy side as far as grands I've played, but not the heaviest I've tried (an older George Steck iirc), and definitely not as featherweight as an upright.

I think it has to do with the the shorter damper lever arm inside the action,l. There is a ton more depth in a real grand to position the lever to the damper rail to achieve the weighting you want, so the lower mechanical advantage in the NV10 leads to slightly higher force required.
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/09/18 06:58 PM
Wow, Tyr, that's an endorsement if ever I read one! Cool to soon(?) have another owner here.

Since everyone else has already commented on the pedal, I'll do so too: Personally, I didn't have the impression that the pedal is heavier than that of the CA97 I had before, but I must admit I never really paid much attention to its relative heaviness. But if the CLP-685 is anything like my CA97 was, then it too has the pedal a good bit further to the front than the NV10. The latter has it further to the back (more like an acoustic grand, I think), by ~15cm compared to the CA97. Until I got used to it, that felt a bit awkward for me too. It also results in a slightly more outstretched foot, which, together with the already slightly unfamiliar feeling, can also contribute to giving a heavier pedal feeling. But I'm certain that it won't take long for you to get used to it.
Posted By: UKchap75 Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/09/18 07:00 PM
At first I felt the pedal was very heavy. After 2 months it’s nice and I found my acoustic too light. So I would say you soon get accustomed to the weight.
Posted By: Vitali.P Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/09/18 08:41 PM
Hi, long time lurker here. Wanted to thank you guys for this thread, it helped me with the decision to buy NV10. Rarely a product has so much positive feedback.

I've got my Novus NV10 about 10 days ago. Love it. A great upgrade from Kawai CA93. I'm not an experienced player, started to learn piano as a hobby a couple of years ago. Mostly played digitals.

The pedal is indeed further away compared to CA93. For me it is a very convenient feature, because I'm relatively tall. It is more comfortable.

I also noticed the noise when touchscreen is being updated or touched. The piano has been delivered with the Line-in knob was at MAX position. It definitely makes the noise much more noticeable. I can still hear the noise with Line-in at MIN and volume at Max. However with volume at middle position it is quiet enough.

I'm very happy with NV10. Keyboard feels more responsive and predictable compared to CA93. It is fun to play.
Posted By: JoBert Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/09/18 09:02 PM
Welcome to the club, Vitali!

From what you write, if you can hear this noise from the touch screen, your piano seems to be one of those that may have an issue with a badly routed or insulated wire. From what Tom wrote, at least Kawai US seems to be aware of this and the technician knew how to fix it (exchange the wire). Kawai service in Germany was very responsive to my questions (although I didn't contact them about this issue, as my piano doesn't have it). If I were you, I would email them and ask about getting this fix that Tom had for your piano too.
Posted By: Vitali.P Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On - 04/09/18 09:28 PM
Thanks, JoBert.

Right, it was very useful information from Tom about wire replacement. I've sent an email to Kawai Germany about this issue about a week ago. They immediately provided link to 1.0.2 firmware and suggested to check the Line-In knob position. After reading Tom's posts, I've sent another email on Sunday pointing out that this seems to be a known issue and asking if they can fix the noise. No reply yet. I assume that they are busy after t