Greetings,

I've been looking for a digital piano for about a month now and after browsing various sources, I am still quite unsure about which piano is the best choice for me.

Long story short, I used to play the piano for a couple of years during school, but then decided to switch to guitar/drums. I know some theory, so I'm not a complete beginner and I'm mainly interested in piano sound and feel. Also, I would prefer a furniture-style digital piano over a portable.

My current list includes the following:

Casio AP 460, ~950E
Casio AP 650, ~1300E
Casio PX 870, ~950E
Kawai KDP 90, ~900E
Kawai CN 27, ~1300E
Korg C1 Air, ~1000E
Korg G1 Air, ~1300E
Roland F140R, ~900E
Roland HP504, ~1350E
Roland RP501R, ~1100E
Yamaha CLP 625, ~1150E
Yamaha YDP 163, ~900E
Yamaha YDP 143, ~700E

I managed to get my hands on some of the above pianos and although I don't have enough experience, here's what I thought:

Casio AP pianos: I didn't like the keys much, I thought they were too noisy
Roland F140R: I liked it overall, but the sound was a bit "artificial", especially compared to the YDP 163 (not a deal-breaker though)
Yamaha YDP 163: this was the piano that I liked the most from the ones I tried. The keys were a bit heavier than the rest, but it was still very enjoyable
Yamaha CLP 625: it felt similar to the YDP 163. I couldn't notice something extremely different. Is there any reason to get this instead of the YDP 163?

Please feel free to recommend pianos that I've missed or pianos that cost a bit more, but have distinct advantages over the ones I've listed.

Those Casios are overpriced. Korg is not so good compared to the alternatives. The ydp 163 and clip 625 are decent I guess, but not my cup of tea. I'm not very fond of the action.
From the list above, personally I would go for the Roland HP504, which I have and has great keys. Presently I use it with piano sounds generated by the computer (VST).
I would recommend you also try the Roland HP 601 which has marginally better keys (the newer PHA 50). They're the current top offering from Roland and are great indeed. With some talks with the dealer, it will likely fit your budget.
Also, Kawai CA48 might also be worth trying. The sound may be inferior to the Roland, but the action should also be great.
And lastly, everything is a matter of preference when it comes to piano, so you should check out all the options for yourself, try them as best you can and only then make your decision.
Have fun!

The only real contenders on your list are:
Roland F140R
Yamaha YDP-163
Yamaha CLP-625

If you like the Roland sound, get that one.
If you like the Yamaha sound, get the YDP-163. It's practically the same as the CLP-625 (almost), but for less money.
The latter looks a bit better, so if appearance matters ...

I'm on a similar search for a good mid-price digital piano, but am just an improver - a couple of years learning from Alfred.
As I never intend to play an acoustic piano, and play purely at home for my own pleasure, I'm not bothered about imitating all the key weights and actions of a real piano, and never have been sure what I was looking for .

Anyway, I've been trying all the recommended ones over the past few months - Roland, Yamaha etc, and concluded that I could put up with any of them, while not being particularly thrilled. Roland a bit heavy perhaps, Casio keys a bit clacky, Many of them had only a rudimentary display too.

Then today I found the Korg C1 Air and within a minute or two knew that this was the one for me.
I've no idea why but it just felt right to me when I played it in the store. . And it has a neat little display, a fair selection of sounds, and comes with a nice neat stand and available in white.

So when @mcoll above says ignore the Korg, I'd give it a try anyway.
It may be what you. need.

@Lillith, it sounds like we are in a very similar situation.

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to play the Korgs, I'll try to find a store that has them. Thanks for the tip!

@mcoll, the HP 601 and CA48 are above my hard limit of 1500E and I doubt that dealers here in Germany would be willing to negotiate their prices. I will add them to my list though, just in case.

Also, another Kawai is at the price range of the HP 601: the CN 37. Any thoughts about that?

You may be able to get the hp601 with a discount to fit your budget. Maybe less likely for the CA48.
As for the cn37, it's the same keys as cn27 with better speakers, sounds and some extra functions.
Personally, when I searched I have focused on getting the best keys I could afford, not caring that much for other aspects. If sounds and speakers are as important as the keys for you, you can add the cn37 to your list too.
In my case, that's why I chose the hp504. And I'm not sure why MacMacMac didn't count it among the 'real contenders', as it's the best action from the list as far as I'm concerned, and others feel the same (not everybody, as it's a matter of preference too). And the Hp601 has a slightly better action and speakers, but the difference is rather subtle.
The CA48 action may be even better, but I didn't have the chance to test it yet.

Actually YDP-163 is very close to CLP-525, which is the predecessor of CLP.625... but not very many changes in between. CLP-525 could be also far cheaper than CLP-625.

You could also try to find a CA-17 that has not been sold so far? I can see it around EUR 1600, with luck you could either find some B-stock left or bargain for this discontinued model...

I would highly recommend to make a shortlist with at least 5-6 pianos and at least 3 vendors, and try in person before making the decision.

I've got a YDP-163 and have been very happy with it.

I have just seen an CA17 for ~1350E here in Denmark, so it could be realistic.

Thank you everybody for the feedback!

I visited today once more the local store and my shortlist now is the following (strong contenders in bold):

Kawai CN 27
Korg C1 Air
Korg G1 Air
Roland F140R
Roland HP504
Yamaha CLP 625
Yamaha YDP 163

While I enjoy Yamaha the most, i would go with the kawai. I tried the YDP-163 for several days a year ago and both action and speakers weren't that good.

Jm2c

If you liked the CN27 the CN37 is absolutely worth the extra money if you can stretch to it, the extra little speakers give a lot more presence and it has USB recording which the CN27 doesn't, plus a lot of other little bonus features.

However, I guess CA17 worths the difference far more

Just one more comment.
In case you are going to use integrated sounds a lot, Roland RP501R could be worth to try as well.
Same key actions and sound engine as F140R but in a real cabinet instead of a minimalistic one.

I have tried F130R against RP401R and the difference in sound with integrated speakers has been great.
I have not liked the sound of F130R with integrated speakers, and RP401R and CN25 has been too expensive for me so I ended up with the KDP90.
(By the way even the new KDP110 could be interesting for you, however - it could take some time until you can try out one in Europe)

As far as I know there are minimal changes since then: bluetooth midi seems to be the most important one in the new models.

Yeah the CA17 looks to be reduced just now (end of line?) so at £1550 that's a good deal over the £1450 CN37. I would absolutely miss the USB recording (including overdubbing) and extra sequencer functionality though, any recording would have to be done via the headphone socket....

There may be a few hp603s still around for just under your limit as they're being phased out, these are arguably better than the 601 that seems to have replaced them in the line up.

Regarding ydp-163 vs clp625, the sound engine in the latter is somewhat more advanced in terms of resonances and has the newer CFX (including binaural) and bosendorfer samples. It also has letoff simulation in the action.

Otherwise out of your current final list the hp504 probably is a step ahead of the others in terms of sound generation/resonances but ultimately I think you probably need to have a good play of them all and pick the one you like the sound/feel of the most.

I think the HP603A replaced the HP603. So an old stock HP603 could be a nice deal.

HP504 would be my pick. It's very good value since it has the same key action, controls and sound engine as its bigger brothers in the range. Sound is 50W which should be enough, but you can always augment it with some external monitors. Downside is that it doesn't have conventional MIDI ports.

CN27 has a user interface where you need to consult the manual and press combinations with the keyboard to activate certain features; I personally could not live with this. Also lacks LINE IN and OUT.

I remember the YDP being quite enjoyable to play but I don't think it's in the same league as the CLP or HP / CN ranges.

The 603 is a good suggestion, but the OP said even the 601 is over his price limit and would have to negotiate it, and I don't think vendors will sell the "old" 603 under the price of the 601, but hey, it's worth a try!
The 601 is also better than the 504, as it has Roland's new generation of top action, better speakers and bluetooth. I would add that probably a slight further discount can be had from the price in the first post (maybe 100 euros less)

@Lolatu, sound in the 504 is 12 watts, but even so, it's more than loud enough. I keep it at 70-80 volume and it's very loud. And yes, it's definitely the best pick from the list as far as I'm concerned, the key action is one of the best on the market and it can always be used with a computer for the best sound as well (as I do).

It is true about recording... CA17 is on the same level as CN27..
You can either record MIDI ( via MIDI cable or USB MIDI or Bluetooth MIDI ) or record audio via the jacks...
Neither Line Out nor recording to USB. I think lack of Line Out is the most painful... And even CA48 is on the same level, even without Line Out
The new CA58 is going to add Line in + Line Out + USB audio recording, but is not available yet and is going to be definitely over budget.

If better audio (non-MIDI) recording than via jacks is a requirement, CN37 seems to be the only option from Kawai.

If I was about to decide within the OP's budget, the strongest contender from Kawai for me would be probably CA17 still, mostly due to RM3 Grand II action and HI-XL sampling.

Hi all,

I know it's been a while, but a lot has happened in the meantime. Because of various reasons, the budget for a digital piano, which I haven't yet bought, has been decreased a bit.

What this essentially means for me is that the only options right now are the entry level instruments, namely the Roland F140R (or RP501R - the prices are very similar), the Kawai KDP110 and the Yamaha CLP625. The only one that I haven't managed to test at all is the new Kawai, since no local shop here has one up in their showrooms.

Any final advice or recommendation before I go ahead and order one of the Rolands?

Thank you,
Iordanis

What about a Kawai ES8 (1439€) with a cheap stand (40-80€) to begin with, with the option to upgrade to the furniture stand (119€) plus pedal unit (125€) later, if money permits?
(Prices are current Thomann prices.)

@JoBert, to be honest I never considered the ES8. It looks great, but unfortunately its cost is higher than my current budget.

Ah sorry, I hadn’t realized that the 1500€ budget from the subject was your old budget that you now had to decrease. Sorry.

I would still go for the YDP163.

It has the same keyboard action as the 625. So all you are really getting for the extra money is a slightly different cabinet design, and slightly more oompf in the speakers.

I tried both when I was looking to get mine, and the YDP163 seemed like the better choice.

A year on I am very very happy with it.

Clearly, it isn't a Novus NV10!

But it is very playable.

Another option is to get a refurbished ES8 on Ebay. One is going for 1295.48 Euro currently.

Tbh though, I've never really understood why people put an arbitrary budget (rather than a range) on a digital piano purchase: just save up for a few more months and bingo, you can cover the small shortfall.
Every piano on your list is not as good as the ES8 or FP90. For the sake of a few more months, you'd have an instrument that would last you longer and be more involving to play.
Your other option is second hand: many people sell digital instruments after only a few years of use. If you take your time, you can get a stunning deal.

Bare in mind that if you buy new, the immediate depreciation on the pianos you've listed may prevent you from being easily able to resell to buy something dearer, as you will have lost a chunk of cash! For instance: if you spend 1000 euro on a digital, you'll probably only get 600--700 on resale even if you sold it only 6 months later. I know this because I brought a one year old MP7 on Ebay for £750. The seller had paid around £1300 a year earlier. He'd had the instrument for many months prior to my purchase as I had been tracking it for quite a while.

@Doug M., you do have a point, but the thing is that I've delayed this purchase since January and I feel I can't wait any longer

Joking aside, I can definitely see that the ES8 is a better instrument. Since portable pianos are now into the picture, how do they compare to the more expensive pianos I had in my list initially and the ones that other people mentioned, e.g. Roland HP603, Kawai CN37, etc?

Thank you,
Iordanis

I was also thinking at the CN37 / CLP 635 and saw the ES8. The specs look great, but it doesn't look like a piano (for me). Too much plastic for me and if you buy with the cabinet it's too expensive and the plastic remains Unfortunately I can't find any refurbished CA67 or newer in my country...

In general, you pay a premium for the cabinet bit of the cabinet digital piano. Thus, price for price, a portable should have more functions, better action etc. A stage piano will give you even more bang for your buck as you'll need a stand, damper pedal and headphones/speakers on top. I would only advise a cabinet piano for those concerned with aesthetics or those who want a top end piano with amazing amplification (Avant Grand, Novus etc, LX17, CS11 etc). At the lower end of the market, you definitely gain by going portable or stage.

For instance, the Kawai MP7SE is a much more powerful instrument than the Kawai ES8 but they are more or less the same price (the Es8 with stand and accessories vs just the MP7SE board.
One can always save up for nicer stands, headphones, damper pedals, bags, stools, speakers etc over time. That's why I went stage instead of portable (plus I wanted the opportunity to gig).

There are really only 2 very good portable pianos in the market presently (Roland FP90 and Kawai ES8); although there are some others worth looking into e.g., the Roland FP80; Roland FP60; Kawai ES7. Yamaha's offering (the P255) is ancient comparatively and soon might get an update.
Another approach is to by a piano controller: the Kawai VPC1, and hook it up to a laptop or personal computer. Then you use a VSTi (virtual studio technology instrument) such as Pianoteq; Garritan CFX, Ivory II, Galaxy D etc to give you sounds. The advantage of this approach is that you get a really high quality sound and a great piano action for the cost. The downside is that it requires some looking into and some set-up.

Your other option on finance is to buy using finance to offset the cost over a longer period, or liquidate other assets to gain enough for the better model. Myself, I went second hand because I wasn't prepared to wait and because there was lots of good options at the time.

[quote=Doug M.] In general, you pay a premium for the cabinet bit of the cabinet digital piano. Thus, price for price, a portable should have more functions, better action etc. A stage piano will give you even more bang for your buck as you'll need a stand, damper pedal and headphones/speakers on top. I would only advise a cabinet piano for those concerned with aesthetics or those who want a top end piano with amazing amplification (Avant Grand, Novus etc, LX17, CS11 etc). At the lower end of the market, you definitely gain by going portable or stage./quote]

I disagree with this point. I've owned both stage and home DPs. Medium-priced furniture-style DPs sound and feel better than ever now, look good (spouses are pleased), and are self-contained since you only need a bench, which is often provided free by dealers. I recently bought a Korg G1 Air, which I think is wonderful and retails in USA for $1,399. Yamaha Arius YDP-14X, 16X, 18X are excellent, as are Roland's HP range and Casio Privia. Kawai has superb consoles, much discussed on this forum.

Just a quick comment on this point:



It's perhaps worth noting that the ES8 is made from metal (aluminium and steel) and wood (side panels). I don't believe there is any plastic used in the cabinet - at least not in a visible area. The stand and pedal unit are also made of wood and metal. Granted, the ES8 (and stand+pedal unit) does not have the traditional piano look of a CN or CLP instrument, but that's a separate argument.

Kind regards,
James
x

Yes, James, I love to see the traditional look of the piano, that's why I ordered the CN37 My baby it's on the road right now and hope that this friday I will have it!

Well, in terms of the Kawai ES8 and Kawai MP7, the stage certainly has more functionality than the portable. Certainly, the stage has way more functionality than the equivalent CA series cabinet model (CA17).
I don't know about the Yamaha: guess it depends upon which stage instrument and portable instrument you look at. Korg for me are just poor quality in action and I wouldn't personally buy one for learning piano (although perhaps for other reasons).

Comparing the ES8 with the CA17 (similar price range):

Action:
CA17: RM3 Grand II action with Let-Off and Triple Sensor
ES8: 88 keys with Ivory Touch surface, RHIII action with Let-Off and Triple Sensor

Polyphony:
CA17: 192
ES8: 256

Virtual technician:
CA17: Touch, Voicing, Damper Resonance, Damper Noise, String Resonance, Key-off Effect (incl. Key-off Release), Fall-back Noise, Stretch Tuning
ES8: Voicing per key, Damper Resonance, Damper Noise, String Resonance, Key-off Effect, Fall-back Noise, Hammer Delay, Topboard, Decay Time, Soft Pedal Depth, Minimum Touch, Tuning, Volume and Tune of each key

Other functions:
CA17: Tuning, Transpose, Brilliance, SHS Mode, Phones Type, Sound Preview, Vocal Assist, Startup Settings, Auto Power Off , Transmit Program Change Number, MIDI Channel, Local Control, Multi-timbral mode
ES8: 28 registration memories, Keybopard/Song Transpose, Equaliser (incl. User EQ), Wall EQ, Speaker Volume, Phones Volume, Line Out Volume, Audio Recording Level, Tuning, Damper Pedal, 4-Hand Mode, Saving of custom settings, Factory Reset, Left Hand Octave, Left Hand Pedal, Split Balance, Layer Octave, Layer Dynamics, Dual Balance, MIDI chanel, Program change send, Local Control Mode, Multi Timbre Mode, Chanel Mute, Automatic Power On/Off, Speaker On/Off

USB functions;
CA17: Blank
ES8: Playback: MP3, WAV, SMF ; Recording: MP3, WAV ; Functions: Audio Overdub, Song to Audio Convertion, Load internal Songs, Save internal Songs, Save SMF Songs, Load Registration, Save Registration, Delete File, Format USB Memory

Metronome:
CA17: Beat: 1/4, 2/4, 3/4, 4/4, 5/4, 3/8, 6/8; Tempo: 10-300 bpm
ES8: Beats: 1/4, 2/4, 3/4, 4/4, 5/4, 3/8, 6/8, 7/8, 9/8, 12/8 Tempo: 10-400 BPM

Jacks
CA17: MIDI (IN/OUT), USB to Host, Headphones x 2
ES8: USB to Host, USB to Device, MIDI (IN/OUT), LINE IN STEREO, LINE OUT (L/MONO, R), DAMPER (for F-10H), DAMPER/SOFT (for F-20), PEDAL (for F-301), Phones x 2, AC-adapter PS-154

Speaker:
CA17: 13 cm x 2 (full range speakers), 5 cm x 2 (tweeters)
ES8: 2 x (8x12)cm with Bass-Reflex-System, can be turned off

Amplification:
CA17: 20W x 2
ES8: 2 x 15 Watts

Internal Sounds
CA17; 8 acoustic piano sounds, 11 other sounds
ES8: Shigeru Kawai EX, Kawai EX, Shigeru Kawai SK-5, Jazz Clean, Warm Grand, Pop Grand, Upright Piano, Pop Grand 2, Modern Piano, Rock Piano; E-Piano x 4, Organ x 4, Harpsichord/Mallets x 4, Strings/Choir x 8, Bass x 4


Basically this analysis underlines my point perfectly: For nearly the same money, the portable ES8 has greater functionality. Where the cabinet CA17 is slightly better is in its action (due to being slightly deeper, thus having room for the RMIII grand action), and in the speaker and amplification (10Watts difference). Actually, in almost all other respects, the CA17 is an inferior instrument to the ES8 despite being of similar cost. The action on the ES8 is very very good and you can upgrade the amplification to match the CA17 pretty easily.

When I say functionality, I mean the utility the instrument provides (i.e., not sound quality, not speakers). For instance, Virtual technician, recording functions, registration memories, EQ ability etc etc. Like for like, the ES8 has the same sound engine as the CA17, meaning with headphones on, they will sound the same. If you prefer greater functionality, there is always the possibility to upgrade speakers and amplification down the line.