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And you (mod team) thinks we are and you are proud of that.
You deleted one old thread with a lot of useful information and lot of ideas... just because we asked why you deleted the other thread... do you even think what are you doing??? And have any kind of thought and self-criticism?

Originally Posted by Casinitaly


The kind explanation is that people were posting material that was not meant to be avaiilable to the general public and using PW as a platform to discuss the details of a product that had not been released.

Information was posted that was hacked from the Kawai site prior to their release of product.
It was illegally obtained information. It was not for public distribution.


How you can even write such a complete nonsens and using it as an explanations to your actions?
That's what Stalin did - give me a person and I will find a paragraph.

First of all - it's NOT a PW forum problem what t was available on Kawai site. It was available public for any person in the world - how the heck you can call it hacking??? No one hacked anything.

Information posted was from their website and from a user, who got his knowledge from a leaflet given to him by an authorized dealer.

None of that was illegal. Illegal was your deleting of both threads, in which users spend a lot of time and effort to contribute there.

Also, whether the product was or not released, it it changing anything? Completely not.

Originally Posted by casinitaly

One thread was removed,
another was revived, renewing the topic and harrassing the moderating team on their actions and it was also removed.


Are you 16-year old girl or mature person? If. Second, so please behave like one. How you can call "harassing"', when people asked for explanations, why two important threads were gone? And this are you calling harassing? No, we only asked, for what should be you obligation.

Still, it would be nice if you could tell us the truth, instead you are deleting all proofs and having language like a secret government agency. Bloody disgusting.
That's over-reacting, I think.

As for this:
Quote
Illegal was your deleting of both threads.
The site has an owner. The mods are charged with overseeing the owner's interests. Collectively they can manage the site anyway they see fit. Deleting threads is not illegal.

The mod said that people were posting material that was not meant to be avaiilable to the general public. What makes you think this is not true?

The mod said the information posted was hacked from Kawai. What makes you think this is not true?

The mod said it was illegally obtained. What makes you think this is not true?

We might never learn the details behind this. But no one is obligated to reveal such to anyone.

And who cares, anyway? Every iota of "secret" product information will eventually become available ... just as soon as the putative new products are released.
MacMacMac,

How can something what an authorized dealer give you can be illegally obtained?
And how something from an open website can be illegally obtained?

No one hacked here Kawai website, it was just open to the whole world.


Also, ale the mods legal depts of any manufacturers? This is only forum I know which is behave like it. In each other business you always have rumors, leaks, and no one is closing mouths to the forum members. Perhaps, because you can't close mobile phone or car forum and there thousand of them.

While pianos are kept as a top secret product, like it was an innovative weapon or nuclear bomb plans. It only digital piano! And people now in case of Kawai is time to upgrade, due to logic three years cycle being a standard in digital piano industry.
Originally Posted by kapelli
pianos are kept as a top secret product, like it was an innovative weapon or nuclear bomb plans. It only digital piano!


It would appear to be so. LOL. But after all, aren't we as avid enthusiasts being done a favour? Who could enjoy the magic of Christmas morning if we'd already peaked under the wrapping of the presents under the tree beforehand?
Originally Posted by toddy
Originally Posted by kapelli
pianos are kept as a top secret product, like it was an innovative weapon or nuclear bomb plans. It only digital piano!


It would appear to be so. LOL. But after all, aren't we as avid enthusiasts being done a favour? Who could enjoy the magic of Christmas morning if we'd already peaked under the wrapping of the presents under the tree beforehand?


Sure I understand. But here we even do not know whether we will get presentes and all our curiosity has been taken down.

They could just remove what was unappriopriate and leave the threads. Especially the thread with ideas was very good.

Also, observing market and talking with the delaers and sharing that knowledge, isn't a crime?
Sometimes we all make mistakes:

http://www.kawai-global.com/news/20170413/

Ian
I'm sure they didn't want to delete posts that members had spent a lot of time contributing to. However, members contribute to posts for free (as the service is also free with adverts) and we do so at our own leisure.

Kawai make pianos for money; therefore, if information is leaked because of a mistake or a breach of security, that breach could lead to potential loss of revenue. Marketing campaigns are carefully planned to generate the maximum excitement to stimulate the market etc. This information leak may have cost Kawai time and effort (therefore money) and also damaged the timings of their campaign. They may have inadvertently benefited by receiving early feedback; however, it is possible that any potentially helpful suggestions are too late to benefit them due to the instruments imminent release.

The moderators therefore have to balance Kawai's potential or actual commercial loss against the loss of time and material members put into the posts. As we benefit from Kawai's activities, it does us no benefit to take leaked information generate long conversations about it.
redundant
Kapelli, You actually think deleting threads is illegal?
I think (protection of intellectual property is a perfect reason for removing leaks. I can fully understand that part, and not removing the actual leak could in worst case cause legal and financial troubles. That part sounds absolutely OK for me.

I am not sure if all comments were really necessary to remove. Some announcements earlier with some minimal reasoning (leak removed in order to protect intellectual property etc.) could have been highly appreciated...
I've been on other product forums, and I've never seen a thread deleted because someone was privy to a little inside information. They should have removed individual posts.
On the other hand, if Kawai requested removal, and Pianoworld doesn't comply, Pianoworld risks losing ad revenue.
Originally Posted by Beakybird
I've been on other product forums, and I've never seen a thread deleted because someone was privy to a little inside information. They should have removed individual posts.
On the other hand, if Kawai requested removal, and Pianoworld doesn't comply, Pianoworld risks losing ad revenue.


Aren't You omitting from your statement that, in the case of a Kawai request to remove the entire thread, to only partially delete it could possibly result in legal action that would need to be defended in court? This is not a high revenue producing website, and any issues that might lead to court action I would think would be avoided by the owner....at least I would, wouldn't you in this situation?

This forum does not ask members to pay a fee to belong, but only gives the opportunity for making a donation.
Originally Posted by dogperson
Originally Posted by Beakybird
I've been on other product forums, and I've never seen a thread deleted because someone was privy to a little inside information. They should have removed individual posts.
On the other hand, if Kawai requested removal, and Pianoworld doesn't comply, Pianoworld risks losing ad revenue.


Aren't You omitting from your statement that, in the case of a Kawai request to remove the entire thread, to only partially delete it could possibly result in legal action that would need to be defended in court? This is not a high revenue producing website, and any issues that might lead to court action I would think would be avoided by the owner....at least I would, wouldn't you in this situation?

This forum does not ask members to pay a fee to belong, but only gives the opportunity for making a donation.





The moderator strongly implied that Kawai made no such request.
I am somewhere in between. There was one thread with the leaks, logically it was deleted. However there was another thread that was old and contained very interesting discussions about what people would like to see in the next CA-series. It was only a few of the latest posts that referred to the leaks and only they should have been deleted, not the whole thread.

And let's not make drama, there was a leak, James (supposedly) requested for the thread to be deleted, they try to limit the damage. Kapelli, I think you are overreacting indeed. It's not about political freedom of speech and pluralism, this is just a corporate leak about forthcoming product. The leak was (supposedly) obtained illegally, that doesn't make it right for us to distribute it freely. If you happen to find a stolen object and then the real owner comes and request that you don't hand it over to someone else but himself, what would be your reaction?
1. No one thought anyone here was a moron.
2. I admit to making an error by using the term illegal. It was pointed out to me - very politely -in a private email last night by jackifus and I corrected one post, I forgot about the second one - I'm human. I make mistakes.
3. the info was on the Kawai site, but it was not meant to be available. That's all you're getting.
4. personal abuse of ANY member is not tolerated in the forums.


It is possible that after the product is released we may reinstate the threads so that the useful information is not lost - but at this point I make you no promises.

Thank you to those of you who managed to understand what the issues were without detailed explainations and who voiced your opinions here politely and thoughtfully.

I won't lock or remove this thread for the moment but if there is any more personal abuse it will be locked and those being abusive will have their posting privileges suspended. Expressing your opinion does not mean that you have to be rude.


This is fair enough I reckon. We just need to wait and see what Kawai comes up with. Friendly speculations and/or wish lists are what keeps a forum like this ticking...but in any event it appears all will be revealed soonish......
+1 CyberGene
+1 casinitaly
+1 EssBrace
Fair enough smile
Hi, I am the one who started those 2 deleted posts, here are a few words that I want to say:

Despite the angry expressions, I need to say Kapelli is the one who is fighting for the many who are quiet after seeing their replies deleted, though I don't agree with all his words, he has my respect. This post made many who were quiet express their own opinions(including me) and it also made the moderator adjust his attitude, for that, starting this post is meaningful;

For the two deleted posts, I agree with CyberGene;

Apologies for bringing many here hard feelings;

To the 2000 who clicked the deleted post, now you know the info you have read has been officially verified by Kawai.
I agree with Doug M. quite fully. Thanks for casinitaly for clarifying comments and to me the proposed continuation sounds good.

Originally Posted by kapelli
Are you 16-year old girl or mature person? If. Second, so please behave like one. How you can call "harassing"', when people asked for explanations, why two important threads were gone? And this are you calling harassing? No, we only asked, for what should be you obligation.


As an off-topic note, trying to challenge someone regarding their maturity while at the same time implying their actions to be that of a 16-year old girl is a bit absurd, in addition to being offensive to many well-behaved individuals of the female kind in that age bracket. And in the context of a volunteer-driven forum in the internet, speaking of obligations seems quite out of place. Excess passion is better directed to piano playing than meta arguments regarding moderation.
and one more +1 for you smile
There was once a tourist who enjoyed his favourite food in this back street within the confines of Madrid. They were sweetbreads, and they were delicious; fresh and cooked to perfection.
On this occasion, he ambled in, sat down, and contemplated his usual treat in advance.

But when the dish arrived, the offering was smaller than usual. Much. But he ate and enjoyed them nonetheless, since he was an amiable guy, understanding of the pressures businesses can find themselves in on occasions.

When the proprietor brought the bill, he politely asked THE question and received the following response;
"Amigo!" he shrugged "This sometimes happens! Sad to say, but sometimes . . . the bull . . . .he wins"
I fully support the moderator's actions. If I was running a site like this (and I'm so thankful that some people are), I would fully err on the side of deleting any thread that I thought was in the slightest way questionable. It's a judgment call they had to make, and given the time they put into this site, I gladly leave those judgments to them.
To me the benefits of this forum are:

1). It's friendly. Newbies can ask questions and not get blown to smithereens.
2). It's sometimes very knowledgable and helpful.
3). This forum has a great relationship with Kawai and with Kawai James. I only wish that the other major manufacturers would dedicate paid resources to giving us the info we need.

Yes, Kawai is a major friend of this forum. They show respect for us by continuing to support Kawai James. Do I have to point out that James is not hammering us with pro-Kawai B.S. His posts are professional, balanced, and often praise the good qualities of his competitors products. What else does anyone want?

Why is wrong for the moderators to show some of that respect back to Kawai? Seems to me it's a friendly and helpful response. It's not like they deleted all the stupid ugly threads where some Kawai owner titles it "Kawai Products Are All Junk!" only to find out that they never contacted their dealer regarding a problem. There have been lots of these, and they haven't been deleted. So what's the problem here?

Sometimes it's appropriate to 'ban' folks. Too bad, but true.
Hopefully we can get the threads restored after the product release. Please be kind to one another, sometimes its way to easy say things on the internet we wouldn't dare say to someones face.
There is too much strife everywhere you go. Peace be with you all!
Also, keep in mind the moderators here are volunteers. Some of us are giving them an AWFUL lot of work to do for zero payment...
I'm surprised the forum has changed so much since the last time I was here. Historically there has never been any moderation of the digital piano forum. Not any. Theoretically the owner was the moderator but he didn't really participate in this forum. The thing is, it worked just fine and is one reason this forum has been successful. Occasionally in any forum there are immature people, but this forum has very few. And they don't stick around long. The lack of moderation has historically allowed people to be honest and frank and didn't impede the flow or neutrality of the information. That's what makes the forum interesting. If threads that reveal something that was accidentally leaked or threads that say report negative things about a piano or manufacturer are locked or deleted, then the forum becomes a much less valuable resource. It ceases to be neutral and to be the best source for information and discussion. Additionally, when you treat people like children, they behave that way. That's what has happened here. The introduction of someone you can whine to when you don't like what someone else says and a moderator figure who will come in and take the role of a superior has reduced the level and quality of the discourse here noticeably.

Quote
Why is wrong for the moderators to show some of that respect back to Kawai? Seems to me it's a friendly and helpful response


Kawai_James has always been very objective in his comments and has never taken offense nor tried to get Kawai information or complaints deleted. That's because he's mature and understands the nature of this forum. I don't think we should assume it is politeness toward him or his employer to delete a thread of speculation and reporting of information accidentally posted on a website. I can't imagine either him or Kawai requesting that those threads be locked or deleted, because they are neither naive nor immature enough to do so.

We were better off without moderation. The owner used to delete egregious things, like threats or profanity, but otherwise it was a forum where speech about pianos was free. I'm sorry to see that has changed.
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Also, keep in mind the moderators here are volunteers. Some of us are giving them an AWFUL lot of work to do for zero payment...


Volunteering is only a virtue when it does more good than harm.
Originally Posted by gvfarns
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Also, keep in mind the moderators here are volunteers. Some of us are giving them an AWFUL lot of work to do for zero payment...


Volunteering is only a virtue when it does more good than harm.


Which in this case, they undoubtedly do in my view. There is no such thing as absolute freedom. Some people want a forum free of moderation, some people want a forum free of personal abuse. Until all people are guaranteed to behave well, you can't have both unfortunately. The forum owner has decided, as he is absolutely entitled to given that this is his forum on which we are guests, that he prefers the latter. As is happens, I think his decision is absolutely correct. You may disagree, and I respect your view. Ultimately, though, it's his decision, and it's been made and we must all accept that.

For what it's worth, I think the moderation on this forum is excellent. It's very light touch compared to most moderated forums; the Kawai leak thread was the first and only thread I've seen deleted here, and there is in general a high level of tolerance and intervention is clearly a last resort. The mods are very far from trigger happy and I honestly have seen no evidence of censorship (Kawai have probably come in for more stick here than anyone else, actually). Conversely, when the mods do get involved, they generally defuse tension, warn rather than ban people where possible, and basically take a tolerant approach which is very respectful of differences of opinion.

Regrettably, there is personal abuse on the forum occasionally, and when it gets out of hand the moderators step in quietly and efficiently and deal with it. I think they should applauded for giving their time freely to do so and from my perspective, I'm glad they're here.
Originally Posted by karvala
For what it's worth, I think the moderation on this forum is excellent. It's very light touch compared to most moderated forums; the Kawai leak thread was the first and only thread I've seen deleted here, and there is in general a high level of tolerance and intervention is clearly a last resort. The mods are very far from trigger happy and I honestly have seen no evidence of censorship (Kawai have probably come in for more stick here than anyone else, actually). Conversely, when the mods do get involved, they generally defuse tension, warn rather than ban people where possible, and basically take a tolerant approach which is very respectful of differences of opinion.


This is also the first time I have seen this level of moderation in 10 years of participation. However, the effect of moderation was the opposite of what you have described. Far from being diffused, the tension was ratcheted up and harm was done as evidenced by the threads complaining about the moderation and the increase in personal, off-topic discussion and threats (from the moderator) that now pollute the forum. What was done does not conform to the "clubhouse rules" in the sense that the rules are defined by the way things have always been here. We have always speculated about future products, complained about existing ones, and posted any information we could legally get for discussion. No law and no reasonable ethical code was broken here.

Remember, the threads were closed because the moderator, for some reason, thought this is not the right place to examine and speculate about possible leaks of future product information. But that's exactly what we do here. And in another thread people weren't being respectful about each other's opinions of PianoTeq. Also completely normal here--that's our most controversial topic. They were not closed over abusive or offensive behavior in the ordinary sense of those words and the moderation was not at all light-handed.

If this case were as you described, I'd also be grateful for the moderation. But it was not. Before today my opinion was the same as yours. But this moderator changed that.
I have two comments to make about this.

First, with regard to the original "leak", it continues to amaze me that there are a vanishingly small number of people who understand a very simple principle: If you don't want information on the Internet, don't put that information on the Internet.

If I need to provide confidential information to someone over-the-wire, I encrypt it. Encryption technology is easy to use and widely available and failure to encrypt confidential information for transmission is at the least negligent, doubly so for a corporation who should have an IT department to advise on and implement such things.

Second, removal of this information has accomplished two things. It has engaged the Streisand effect since folks like me who were not originally following that thread are now wondering what the fuss is about. And it makes Kawai look bad and heavy-handed. Rather than taking advantage of the excitement and interest that the folks here have in their new product, bringing out the censor's hammer and removing the discussion from public view leads people to wonder what they are trying to hide and makes the company look bad and heavy-handed. As an analogy, if I see a wonderful painting for sale on a street corner and tell someone else, "Look at this wonderful painting", and the artist runs up and punches me in the nose, how likely am I to recommend his paintings to all of my friends after that?

Ultimately, whoever is responsible for removal of the information in question has very successfully managed to turn a positive buzz around their forthcoming products into a negative one.
Originally Posted by gvfarns
This is also the first time I have seen this level of moderation in 10 years of participation.


Your posts have been thought-provoking gv and I have to say that I agree with you completely in all you've had to say about the issue. The moderator has appeared more times in the last year than the rest of the history of the forum combined.

Purely a personal observation but I find the tone of the moderator's posts to be absolutely consistent with that of a somewhat abrupt and superior-sounding self-appointed adjudicator, talking down to participants from on high. You are quite right, there was such a 'light touch' before but now it feels like any one of us is one post away from a permanent ban. The place is diminished by such an atmosphere because it is inhibiting.

If I never appear again you'll know that my comments got me banned! The sad thing is I have genuinely considered that as a possible outcome following this criticism.
What a shame! I only post here on the odd occasion these days, but I'm disappointed that this has happened here. A few years ago I had a run-in with the owners/moderators of another keyboard forum due to their deletion of posts relating to a leaked Yamaha release. Although I understood that the owners had every right to run the site however they liked, and that the leak may have caused difficulties for individuals, the episode left a sour taste in my mouth. It suggested that the corporate voice could override the individual member, and that censorship could be used to control legitimate discussion.

I have sympathy for the mods here, but is it really necessary to delete threads that simply reflect members' enthusiasm for new products, and for information obtained from publicly available sources?
Hey vox. Good to see you! What with you and gv's reappearance all we need is snazzy pete, Melodialworks Music, Piano Zac and pv88 to return and there could be a proper reunion!
And gyro....how could I forget gyro!
Oh my! Gyro!!!

Thanks, Steve, and good to talk with you, too!
Glad to see the crew. I don't see dewster, though. frown
I posted the links to Kawai’s test site..

I did not post the links to in any way harm Kawai, on the contrary, vibrant discussion and building anticipation is a boon to a company.

Savvy tech companies leak information (even misdirecting information) for just this purpose and I did not presume to know why those links were publicly available.

I private-messaged the moderator making clear that I found those links using a publicly available search engine and that no hacking or illegal activity was involved.

The moderator was extremely kind and courteous in our communications. She acknowledged that using that language was a mistake and remedied it.

It was clear to me that her intentions were good. Mistakes happen.

As for removing the threads, intentions and reasoning could have been communicated more clearly… but life’s not perfect; especially under stress. Hopefully next time will be better should it happen again.

I look forward to Kawai’s successful product launch and Piano World’s vibrant discussion, all in the spirit of continual improvement.

Cheers
Originally Posted by gvfarns
Glad to see the crew. I don't see dewster, though. frown



I feel guilty. How could I forget Dewster, esteemed creator of the DPBSD!?
Just to share my view as a newbie.
This forum, the Digital subforum, should be useful to understand better the digital piano equipments and asking for advice. It should also be useful to understand better how to use and configure all this hardware and software.
I would expect many passionate people helping each other using digital pianos and software at their best, like in the adult beginner forums for the learning path.
Sadly, look at the PT6 thread, it's only a war, very few sharing their preferred settings or hints. The majority sharing only their subjective opinions (not facts or practical advices) positive or negative on sound quality or hardware performance.
The most of the topics are about "which is better" and "new gears". Then, after somebody as bought the dp, is over. Figure out yourself how to use it at its best, it's not interesting.
Some deleted topics on possible new gear are the mainstream.
Is this the mission of this forum? Sad.
Quote
I private-messaged the moderator making clear that I found those links using a publicly available search engine and that no hacking or illegal activity was involved.


So in addition to having the publicly available information that you were kind enough to provide censored, you were also libelled for posting it? frown

Quote
The moderator was extremely kind and courteous in our communications. She acknowledged that using that language was a mistake and remedied it.


I'm pleased that you were satisfied with her response, but really... that makes this entire bad situation look even worse. And I am truly sorry to hear this.

Perhaps someone who's a moderator and who is apparently libelling the folks who use this forum should have her moderating status removed either temporarily or permanently, and enjoy a time-out period of her own to to provide her with an opportunity to reflect on her actions and hopefully resolve to do better.

Speaking for myself only, unless something happens to change my mind in the future (and I really don't know what that would be) I think I'll be removing Kawai from any consideration for future piano purchases or upgrades. There are many other manufacturers of high quality products to choose from.
Originally Posted by FrankCox

Speaking for myself only, unless something happens to change my mind in the future (and I really don't know what that would be) I think I'll be removing Kawai from any consideration for future piano purchases or upgrades. There are many other manufacturers of high quality products to choose from.


I'm not a Kawai fan, but I wouldn't blame Kawai for possible moderator issues or mis-steps at this forum. Most companies like to keep certain info secret from their competitors as long as possible to keep them guessing.
I have to say that I hadn't taken much note of those long Kawai threads that got deleted, but the sudden reappearance of K's rep and the deletion of those threads is obviously not a coincidence, and that has pushed Kawai down as a company in my estimation.

Instead of taking advantage of the interest generated by speculative threads (whether based on unintended leaks or not) on new Kawai products, they chose instead to use their heavy hand and (presumably) financial clout to clamp down on it.

Which other DP manufacturer has ever done that in PW?
Originally Posted by jackifus
I posted the links to Kawai’s test site..


Did the moderators mention that they were asked by Kawai or anyone else to remove the links, or the information? I did not see the original links that were pulled, but can see Kawai not wanting links posted in the forum which lead to a test site of theirs. Easy enough for them to password the test site, though.

Regarding the information about impending releases, I doubt Kawai would care enough to ask for it to be removed. They might like a surprise announcement, but they'd also like some buzz to build for their new products. Probably had to do with how far out their new products might be and not wanting to devalue the stock sitting on Kawai dealers' show floors. Especially for the larger, "furniture-style" pianos, I think this would be the reason. I can see dealers who frequent the forums being the ones who ask for information to be pulled.

Pianovibe - Digital pianos and synths (this subforum) are different than the rest of the piano world (pun intended), as it's so technology-based and therefore changing so much more quickly than the rest of the piano industry. People here want to talk about the latest and rumored instruments, because they significantly impact the quality of the instruments and the playing experience. As to the Pianoteq thread, I'd say there are modelling and sampling adherents, some of whom who don't like their ears or opinions belittled. Different people also have different preferences. On an online forum one person might say something a little awkwardly or too stridently, the next person might take it the wrong way or be a bit defensive, and it seems like "a big deal." But, it's really just a tempest in a teapot; adults have differing opinions and like to stand up for themselves.
Enough is enough. I have about had it.

You people are beating on a VOLUNTEER moderator for trying to do her job. You know nothing about anything that goes on behind the scenes. But it does not stop you from being Monday morning quarterbacks. Frankly, I happen to know that casinitaly acted on information as she knew it at the time. And if you want to gripe about anyone, gripe about me because I removed the first topic. Why? Because I was requested to do so and I agreed with the reason.

Some of you forget that you are GUESTS here. Others have been very gracious, and I thank those that are. You do not own the forum nor do you own its content. The rules state that Piano World reserves the right to remove any post for any reason whatsoever. They do not state that anyone is owed any explanation whatsoever. And when I say "Rules" just think of them as "Terms of Service" which you agree to by your usage of the forum.

This post is not directed at those who have been understanding. Rather, it is directed at those who won't let it go and continue to stir the fires.

Heavy handed? We are called lenient if you want Gyro banned and we tell you to give the guy a break. Or how about Fer de Armas? We were also too lenient with him, too. We don't act fast enough for you and we are lenient. We take action and we are heavy handed. It all comes down to this.. If some of you don't like something on here we better get off our butts and fix it. As long as we don't do anything to screw with what you don't want us to screw with.

This ain't the gong show, folks. I am closing this topic and here is a warning.. Anyone tries to resurrect it with a new topic gets banned.
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