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Posted By: RichieBill Kurzweil SP6 - 08/18/17 11:35 PM
http://kurzweil.com/product/sp6/overview/
Any body know or presume what's the keyboard action built in?
Posted By: EssBrace Re: Kurzweil SP6 - 08/19/17 12:04 AM
The spec sheet on Kurzweil's site says Medeli K6 hammer action.
Posted By: ElmerJFudd Re: Kurzweil SP6 - 08/19/17 04:09 AM
Change of thinking at Kurz in the entry level SP.
The big news is pitch and mod wheels go upstairs making it shorter, 52.5" vs. 54.8" on the SP5.
SP5 weighs 46.3lbs. The SP6 is 27.25lbs!

And they say they've simplified the UI.
We know the sounds will be pretty good.
Looks like a decent contender vs. Casio PX-5S if they can get it on some showroom floors side by side.

Don't forget they've done 10 velocity curves, so even if you don't immediately like the K6 action, find the curves/settings and see if you can get it to play.

Posted By: RichieBill Re: Kurzweil SP6 - 08/19/17 06:39 AM
Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd

Don't forget they've done 10 velocity curves, so even if you don't immediately like the K6 action, find the curves/settings and see if you can get it to play.

IMHO big amount of velocity curves worth nothing when keyboard action is rubbish.
Posted By: Marko in Boston Re: Kurzweil SP6 - 08/19/17 09:21 AM
A short video clip. Just marketing, not a demo.

https://vimeo.com/228135336
Posted By: EssBrace Re: Kurzweil SP6 - 08/19/17 12:42 PM
Their range is completely bewildering.

The key to Kurzweil at the moment is to find a product that combines the new German Grand sample with a decent action. Their so-called legendary "triple strike" grand is absolutely ancient and awful in my opinion. The new German Grand sounds fantastic to me though.

Even models quite high up in their hierarchy don't have the new sample. But then surprisingly the SP6 does seem to have it but only mated to an action that you would have to view with extreme suspicion. Kurzweil also sometimes apply an 'F' to their model numbers and that denotes a Fatar action (which, somewhat ironically perhaps, Kurzweil regard as an upgrade!)...sometimes it's TP100, sometimes TP40L (L meaning light). For me the TP100 is actually better than TP40L. The heavier TP40 model as fitted to Nord Piano and Dexibell S7 is better still.

They also rebadge at least one Chinese Medeli slab type, which is also badged under Alesis and other brands.

They really need to streamline their model range so it makes some sense. At the moment it's a minefield.
Posted By: PossumES8Krome61 Re: Kurzweil SP6 - 08/28/17 11:41 PM
How much is it? I guess no internal speakers though
Posted By: ElmerJFudd Re: Kurzweil SP6 - 08/29/17 12:52 AM
Don't know yet. We'd be lucky to see it $1.5 to $2.2k. It's very similar to the Forte SE.
Big question is how good (or bad) is that action?

Posted By: thomsurf Re: Kurzweil SP6 - 08/29/17 06:40 AM
I don't think it's going to be that expensive. The SE series is their cheaper line of DPs.
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Kurzweil SP6 - 08/29/17 11:51 AM
Originally Posted by thomsurf
I don't think it's going to be that expensive. The SE series is their cheaper line of DPs.

I assume you meant SP.

I see this as a higher end board than the $1,500 Artis SE, so I think it will sell at a premium to that. (Though it's also possible they could discontinue or lower the price of the Artis SE.)

SP is basically their "Stage Piano" line which is generally oriented toward preset operation. The current top SP is the $1,400 SP5-8... maybe they discontinue that, or maybe this is an additional, higher end product in that line. Either way, $1,500+ does not seem out of line for an SP that is more high end than any previous SP, something that has the Kurz piano quality not previously available in anything cheaper than the $3k Forte SE. So 'd be surprised if this went for anything under $1500. $1500-$2000 sounds about right to me (though it's not impossible it could also be a bit higher, when you look at what it offers relative to that $3k Forte SE or some other higher end competitors like Nord Electro 5HP or Korg Grandstage).
Posted By: EssBrace Re: Kurzweil SP6 - 08/29/17 11:59 AM
Originally Posted by anotherscott
Either way, $1,500+ does not seem out of line for an SP that is more high end than any previous SP, something that has the Kurz piano quality not previously available in anything cheaper than the $3k Forte SE. So 'd be surprised if this went for anything under $1500. $1500-$2000 sounds about right to me (though it's not impossible it could also be a bit higher, when you look at what it offers relative to that $3k Forte SE or some other higher end competitors like Nord Electro 5HP or Korg Grandstage).


But with a Medeli action!? There'll be no takers simply on the reputation of that kind of el-cheapo out-sourcing. Fatar is one thing; worthy enough at the right price and quite good when they're at their best. But Medeli?

What's an Artis SE? About £1200 GBP. That has German Grand and a Fatar action. The SP6 has the German and Japanese Grands and string resonance (which makes a pretty big difference). So yes your price prediction is about right I would guess. But what's going on with the choice of action? I really think their approach lacks cohesion. Why bugger about with such a disparate array of out-sourced actions across their model range? It seems odd to me.
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Kurzweil SP6 - 08/29/17 03:09 PM
Originally Posted by EssBrace
But with a Medeli action!? There'll be no takers simply on the reputation of that kind of el-cheapo out-sourcing. Fatar is one thing; worthy enough at the right price and quite good when they're at their best. But Medeli?

I'm guessing it may be the Medeli action that's in their KA90, which I've played. It's not a spectacular action, but I liked it more than the TP100 in the Artis. And the Medeli in the SP4-7 is a pretty decent semi-weighted action... piano plays better from that than it does from the comparably priced semi-weighted Korgs and Rolands, for example.

Originally Posted by EssBrace
What's an Artis SE? About £1200 GBP. That has German Grand and a Fatar action. The SP6 has the German and Japanese Grands and string resonance (which makes a pretty big difference)..

Also half-dampering, more fx units, bigger display. And I suspect that even the German Grand is better than in the Artis SE. The "full" GG sample set (which I believe is about 2 gb) is in the Forte (which has the 16 gb flashplay). I think the Artis SE is a 128 mb version as in the PC3A8. The SP6 with its 2 gb flashplay probably has something in between. It probably has better EPs than the Artis series as well. Though it also loses a couple of things, like the EQ knobs
Posted By: ElmerJFudd Re: Kurzweil SP6 - 08/29/17 03:58 PM
Kurz definitely suffers from a convoluted product line.
But understandable given how the lineage developed and where they found success in sales.
Posted By: Marko in Boston Re: Kurzweil SP6 - 08/29/17 04:54 PM
Some new demos here - translation needed - but get to hear the SP6 sounds:

https://www.youtube.com/user/yckurzweil/search?query=sp6
Posted By: thomsurf Re: Kurzweil SP6 - 09/10/17 08:44 PM
Yes. Meant SP, sorry.

Thomann in Europe just added it at 1190 euros. Not bad! Big question remains how the action is...
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Kurzweil SP6 - 02/13/19 05:58 PM
So, how’s that and especially the keyboard? 11kg, 88 keys, 2GB samples and the main ones sound pretty good. Where’s the catch, the Medeli action? The closest competitor is PX-5S but I don’t like the sounds.
Posted By: clothearednincompo Re: Kurzweil SP6 - 02/13/19 07:27 PM
Does Medeli necessary equal to bad?

In general it does equal to cheap.

...which could suggest bad. wink

Here's a sideview of the K6 action. It's apparently used in several Medeli (and Medeli based) stage pianos.

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2691245/medeli-k6-action.html
Posted By: JoeT Re: Kurzweil SP6 - 02/13/19 08:04 PM
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Here's a sideview of the K6 action. It's apparently used in several Medeli (and Medeli based) stage pianos.

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2691245/medeli-k6-action.html

It's a pretty bad design. Notice the sensors directly under the key? They belong under the hammer to make this a true hammer action.
Posted By: clothearednincompo Re: Kurzweil SP6 - 02/13/19 08:21 PM
Many (Yamaha, Casio...) are "pretty bad designs" in that sense then as often (but not always, like e.g. not in a Kawai) the key and hammer are linked and can't move independently.

Then it doesn't really matter where the sensors are.
Posted By: JoeT Re: Kurzweil SP6 - 02/13/19 08:28 PM
Key and hammer aren't linked in Medeli's action. It just doesn't matter, because the key sensing works like a synth action.
Posted By: jeffscot Re: Kurzweil SP6 - 02/13/19 08:28 PM
Originally Posted by CyberGene
So, how’s that and especially the keyboard? 11kg, 88 keys, 2GB samples and the main ones sound pretty good. Where’s the catch, the Medeli action? The closest competitor is PX-5S but I don’t like the sounds.

Informative thread on kbc about the SP6....

http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2890730/SP6#Post2890730
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kurzweil SP6 - 02/13/19 09:03 PM
The PHA-4 Standard also has key sensors I believe. It's not entirely relevant when the hammer and key are linked. Btw, based on the connection point in the image, my guess is the K6 action is hard-linked (otherwise they would need to have some kind of padding/damping for a free hammer flying back up against the keystick, and that design typically doesn't have such...
Posted By: EVC2017 Re: Kurzweil SP6 - 02/13/19 09:23 PM
FWIW ES8 has key sensors too.
Posted By: Kbeaumont Re: Kurzweil SP6 - 02/13/19 09:24 PM
I own one, its not a 'bad' action. It feels similar to Yamaha GHS , but to me a bit better. So its in that middle ground category. If your planning on playing it quiet at home. The action is a bit loud. Not awful, but louder than some. For me it has been an awesome gigging board. It replaced a Yamaha MOX8 workstation. I like the user interface way better. Plus the SP6 weighs less. You can load any of the Forte SE sounds and any of the PC3 and Kore64 sounds. The sample objects are already in them. And the pianos sound a lot better in my opinion than the Yamaha. The interface is easy to setup a multi and its a quite capable controller. My only quibble is I wish it had more favorites, 5 is a bit limiting. But I'm using an iPad app 'setlist' that does program changes so the point is mute. It also has a very decent organ. For a low cost, light weight stage piano its hard to beat.

I previously owned an Sp4-7 which had a great form factor, internal power supply and a very good semi-weighted action. All metal and built solid! My ONLY complaint with it were the piano sounds, the triple strike pianos were really dated.
Posted By: JoeT Re: Kurzweil SP6 - 02/13/19 09:36 PM
Originally Posted by EVC2017
FWIW ES8 has key sensors too.

It does?

[Linked Image]

I see sensors under the hammer.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kurzweil SP6 - 02/13/19 10:36 PM
Originally Posted by JoeT

I see sensors under the hammer.


Plus, it bears noting that almost all hammer actions with "hammer sensors" will have the sensors closer to the hammer pivot (which is normally where the key and hammer meet). I don't think anyone short of Alpha Piano have the actual hammerheads strike the sensors (that's a wear and tear disaster).
Posted By: EVC2017 Re: Kurzweil SP6 - 02/13/19 11:33 PM
Originally Posted by JoeT


I see sensors under the hammer.


I saw the sensors under the keys, live, not on a not so clear picture of the Internet. http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2796400/es8-opening.html


Memory may be betraying me but I am pretty sure the sensors are pressed by the keys bottom, not the pseudohammers.

I wish I had photographed from the side.

Also, that picture of the action is weird, it would make ES8 much thicker than it really is.
Posted By: JoeT Re: Kurzweil SP6 - 02/13/19 11:44 PM
Originally Posted by EVC2017
I saw the sensors under the keys, live, not on a not so clear picture of the Internet. http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2796400/es8-opening.html


Memory may be betraying me but I am pretty sure the sensors are pressed by the keys bottom, not the pseudohammers.

It's pretty clear on your own picture showing the RH3 from below:

[Linked Image]
In the upper half of the image you see the hammer shanks, behind the metal bar is the hammer pivot, directly adjacent to the hammers is the sensor board attached. The keys are are way above that, they can't reach the sensors directly.
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Kurzweil SP6 - 02/13/19 11:45 PM
To me it seems the key pushes a hammer under the front part of the key and the hammer pushes the sensors. It’s the same part of the hammer lever that’s pushed by the key and in turn pushes the sensors which is what may be confusing of one expects the far end to be the one that pushes sensors but other than that it’s still the hammer.
Posted By: EVC2017 Re: Kurzweil SP6 - 02/13/19 11:49 PM
Originally Posted by CyberGene
To me it seems the key pushes a hammer under the front part of the key and the hammer pushes the sensors. It’s the same part of the hammer lever that’s pushed by the key and in turn pushes the sensors which is what may be confusing of one expects the far end to be the one that pushes sensors but other than that it’s still the hammer.


I agree after a further look. To me this is basically pushing the sensors with the keys bottoms, even if there is the "hammers" levers in between.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kurzweil SP6 - 02/13/19 11:49 PM
Originally Posted by CyberGene
To me it seems the key pushes a hammer under the front part of the key and the hammer pushes the sensors. It’s the same part of the hammer lever that’s pushed by the key and in turn pushes the sensors which is what may be confusing of one expects the far end to be the one that pushes sensors but other than that it’s still the hammer.


That's how everyone does it. It's the slowest moving and least straining point to have the sensor contact.
Posted By: JoeT Re: Kurzweil SP6 - 02/13/19 11:51 PM
Originally Posted by CyberGene
To me it seems the key pushes a hammer under the front part of the key and the hammer pushes the sensors. It’s the same part of the hammer lever that’s pushed by the key and in turn pushes the sensors which is what may be confusing of one expects the far end to be the one that pushes sensors but other than that it’s still the hammer.

Indeed, and that is what matters, because only then the sensors can properly detect hammer inertia instead of just triggering at certain points of key travel like a synth action.

Marked the hammer assembly in orange:

[Linked Image]
Posted By: JoeT Re: Kurzweil SP6 - 02/14/19 12:06 AM
Originally Posted by EVC2017

I agree after a further look. To me this is basically pushing the sensors with the keys bottoms, even if there is the "hammers" levers in between.

A proper hammer action has freely movable hammers, which can escape. An action with a weight permanently attached to the keys is not a hammer action, it's a weighted synth action. A proper hammer action measures the speed of the free hammer to replicate how a piano works. A synth action measures the keys.

Medeli builds weighted synth actions and Kurzweil uses them.
Posted By: sullivang Re: Kurzweil SP6 - 02/14/19 12:06 AM
(previous reply deleted - I made a mistake)
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Kurzweil SP6 - 02/14/19 01:52 AM
Originally Posted by JoeT

A proper hammer action has freely movable hammers, which can escape. An action with a weight permanently attached to the keys is not a hammer action, it's a weighted synth action. A proper hammer action measures the speed of the free hammer to replicate how a piano works. A synth action measures the keys.

Medeli builds weighted synth actions and Kurzweil uses them.

Well, there could be a whole discussion over what defines a "proper" hammer action, but even using your distinction, Medeli builds weighted synth actions with hammers and Kurzweil uses them. The hammer is an integral part of the way the action feels, even if it does not behave as you'd prefer. The keys do not feel simply like synth keys with weights (which defines the "semi-weighted" actions).
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kurzweil SP6 - 02/14/19 02:28 AM
Originally Posted by anotherscott

Medeli builds weighted synth actions and Kurzweil uses them.

Well, there could be a whole discussion over what defines a "proper" hammer action, but even using your distinction, Medeli builds weighted synth actions with hammers and Kurzweil uses them.
[/quote]

Also, if we use so prescriptive a definition, then there are VERY few hammer action DPs that actually have "hammer actions." All of Yamaha's are out. I think Roland's as well, and maybe all of Kawai's plastic actions. You're left with only the Kawai AWA Pro, RM3 and Grand Feel class actions that really qualify. With all due respect to JoeT, I think that doesn't serve a very useful purpose...
Posted By: JoeT Re: Kurzweil SP6 - 02/14/19 03:15 AM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
All of Yamaha's are out.

Where does the confusion come from? Here, have a GH3:

[Linked Image]
1. freely movable hammer
2. sensors sensing hammer movement.

Conclusion: proper hammer action.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Kurzweil SP6 - 02/14/19 03:22 AM
So, it's been a while since I've had my GH CP50, but as I recall from diassembling the action, the hammer in GH, GH3, and NW/NWX is captured to the key at this point, where the key/hammer interface lies (in green). meaning there's not just an upper-bound to allow the hammer to drop/push, but a lower bound as well to prevent the hammer from "escaping" the key (the hammer tab is captured in a top/bottom bound box) from the keystick:

[Linked Image]


Posted By: CyberGene Re: Kurzweil SP6 - 02/23/19 07:00 PM
Originally Posted by Kbeaumont
I own one, its not a 'bad' action. It feels similar to Yamaha GHS , but to me a bit better. So its in that middle ground category. If your planning on playing it quiet at home. The action is a bit loud. Not awful, but louder than some. For me it has been an awesome gigging board. It replaced a Yamaha MOX8 workstation. I like the user interface way better. Plus the SP6 weighs less. You can load any of the Forte SE sounds and any of the PC3 and Kore64 sounds. The sample objects are already in them. And the pianos sound a lot better in my opinion than the Yamaha. The interface is easy to setup a multi and its a quite capable controller. My only quibble is I wish it had more favorites, 5 is a bit limiting. But I'm using an iPad app 'setlist' that does program changes so the point is mute. It also has a very decent organ. For a low cost, light weight stage piano its hard to beat.

I previously owned an Sp4-7 which had a great form factor, internal power supply and a very good semi-weighted action. All metal and built solid! My ONLY complaint with it were the piano sounds, the triple strike pianos were really dated.

I’ve somehow missed that and it’s really informative. Thanks! I need a relatively cheap keyboard with pianos, epianos, pads, maybe some leads, strings. Hammer action is a must and low weight is almost a must. It’s only for occasional gigging and I already have some invitations by some old buddies. But nothing serious, so don’t want to pour more money than that. I really can’t see a better keyboard for my purpose. Maybe a Casio connected to a Mac with MainStage but not sure if it’s worth it.
Posted By: sullivang Re: Kurzweil SP6 - 02/26/19 12:00 AM
Just tried the action (without sound) - surprised how weighty it felt - definitely plenty for me. Shame it's not tri-sensor. (I probably don't need it, but I can't help it - I just want it)

Greg.
Posted By: DaveBB Re: Kurzweil SP6 - 07/03/19 01:19 AM
Just ran across this thread. Within the last month I purchased an SP6 (with the Medeli K6 action). I am quite impressed with the action, and the overall board.

I can very quickly switch from a fairly recent Privia (that notably had good 'piano' action and response), to the SP6, and to my KAWAI Grand quite easily and happily.
The SP6 has 10 velocity curves to choose from in order to get your preferred key to finger/touch response

Between the 3, I'm spending almost all of my time on the SP6. This being my first Kurzweil, (I've had some 12 or so other variety of boards; Roland, Korg, Yamaha, Rhodes, etc.) - I can say that I'm quite impressed with the Kurzweil sound quality - Pianos, Rhodes, Organs, etc.

I'm not sure about the 'mechanics' of what's under the keys, but the sound and feeling/touch response to me is '...a lot of stars....'
Posted By: Kbeaumont Re: Kurzweil SP6 - 07/03/19 03:53 PM
DaveBB, I'm glad you like it. I really like mine, it also makes a good controller. That handy little 'dest' button makes plugging in a module simple, its color coded for local, external & both.
Posted By: shellytheman Re: Kurzweil SP6 - 07/14/19 04:58 AM
Hi SP 6 owners. Been trying a Roland DS88 for playing out, like the feel of the action, and usually a Roland fan. Haven't downloaded any online sounds, but find the mono piano 1 best for rock band use, though not connecting to this or other sounds with as much control as previous Roland RD's. Would the SP6 be worth ordering (none in stores by me)? Never owned a Kurzweil, played a few over the years, always seemed on the light side (coming from acoustic piano background).
Thanks.
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Kurzweil SP6 - 07/14/19 12:58 PM
Off-hand, I'd say key advantages of the SP6 over the DS88 would be: better organ, better MIDI (i.e. to integrate external sounds from an iPhone/iPad, laptop, additional module/keyboard), it's smaller/lighter, better VA synth, more effects capabilities (32 "effects units"), more capacity for storing user patches (Roland gives you 256 user Patches, 128 Performances; Kurz is 1024 user Programs, 1024 Multis). DS88 advantages include being able to load custom samples, being able to split/layer up to 16 sounds (vs. 4 on the SP6)
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