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Steinway D Concert Grand

Posted By: Cinjero

Steinway D Concert Grand - 06/23/17 04:48 PM

Production Voices (production grand) has announced / updated the progress @90%. With released possibly in the FALL.

Total library (all versions 24/96, 24, 16) nearing 580 gigs. (gulp) ~ 16 bit alone is 100 gig.

https://vimeo.com/222850726/6293497e54
Posted By: TheodorN

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 06/23/17 06:04 PM

It sounds really nice. Recently, I got an email from PV, with an update for the GUI of the Estate Grand, which fixed the issue of the microphone sliders not appearing. I was about to answer and thank for the update, taking the opportunity to ask about the upcoming Steinway D, but now I don't need to.

I will take a serious look at this instrument from PV, when it's released, but probably a watered down version. Not willing to fork out for another SSD, but I might change my mind about that! A 50+ GB VSTi seems to be becoming the norm these days, at least among the big names.
Posted By: slobajudge

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 06/23/17 06:42 PM

I am afraid there are too many microphones and that means lots of (useless ? HZpiano comes to my mind) samples that bring unnecessary GB instead of max 4 mics with more velocity levels. Anyway lets wait and see, maybe it will be real good.
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 06/23/17 08:23 PM

How many layers would be needed?
Posted By: johnlewisgrant

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 06/23/17 08:31 PM

I have the full version Yamaha, which is very, very low noise; "realistic" tone (from my subjective standpoint); many layers (forget exactly how many). Meticulous sampling. It's a Yamaha, however; so not a sample I would (myself) use for classical material--which is what I do.

If I had a criticism of the Yammy, it would be that that sample lacked a bit of "air" at the very, very highest frequencies. No more lacking in the high frequencies than any other high end sample, mind you, perhaps with the exception of the HZP, which has only 4 usable layers, but which definitely has the "air" (highest frequency tone/sound characteristics) that make some recordings made with it very comparable to many modern solo classical Steinway D (Hamburg) recordings, in certain limited classical rep., that is.

The price paid for that kind of high frequency authenticity, however, is a pretty noisy, dirty-sounding sample. The PV Yamaha, in contrast, is very, quiet: but, again, maybe that's achieved at a price, too. Looks like the PV Steinway, like the HZP, will have some more remote microphone placements, which can make possible incredibly realistic verb, albeit very prescribed verb, because it's hard to add verb to an inherently verby sample. Better (in my experience) to start with a dry acoustic, if your game is to add exactly the kind of verb you want after the fact. I'm sure the PV Steinway will have super-dry mic options, if that's your thing.
Posted By: TheodorN

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 06/24/17 06:42 AM

Johnlewisgrant do you recommend the PV Yamaha C7? Judging from demos the bass sounds a little weak, but maybe it feels different when playing? I'm considering the Sforzando version with the first four microphone pairs. I don't have the full Kontakt, and it's great to be able to record from within the VSTi program itself. Would you say the other four (vintage) microphone pairs give the piano an extra character?
Posted By: bsntn99

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 06/24/17 03:47 PM

I had a chance to compare the PV C7 to Acousticsamples C7 for reference and can give my thoughts. The PV is a bit cleaner, a little more raw sounding, and has a very well programmed velocity curve with 12 layers. However, there is a bum note, G2, that stands out in timber from the adjacent notes and there is more variation note to note in volume and timbre than the AS C7 across the keyboard. The PV C7 is also a bit brighter out of the box. Bass is similar between the two, brightness aside.

I could not discern any difference with the authentic pedaling in the PV C7 for half or re-pedaling where both are readily discernible in the AS C7. (Edit: Looks like version 2 includes string resonance and re-pedaling - I only had a look at version 1. Sforzando and Modern Four though are still based on version 1.) Both pianos have almost no latency, 1 or 2 ms at most compared with 3-4 ms with CFX or pianoteq from when a note is triggered. So these two are among the best in this regard.

The PV C7 has better ppp playing with very quiet samples available. AS C7 is not quite as good, maybe at a pp level. Overall, the AS C7 comes across as a bit mellower and better balanced, but the PV C7 does have that rawness in the tone that is appealing. I don't think you are gaining much if you own the AS C7 already, but you can decide based on my description if there is any value. I do like what the Production Voices people are doing and will be keeping an eye on them.
Posted By: TheodorN

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 06/24/17 04:41 PM

Thank you, bsntn99, for this info. I hate it when notes are not evenly volumed, exactly what I noticed with the Waves Grand Rhapsody. I was practising that riff from Bohemian Rhapsody, after doesn't really matter to me, to me...where I'd play a Bb octave, then come up and play a Bb chord in second inversion, just below middle C.

The Bb note of the chord simply wouldn't cooperate, that is, play with the same volume, which kind of destroyed my mood, and consequently the playability of the instrument. When you buy a VSTi mostly because of the person who played the recorded piano, and because of Queen's music, a thing like this sort of wrecks it all.

I agree with you, that the Production Grand Modern will probably not add much new, that I don't already have in the AcousticSamples C7. I might rather take a look at another Fazioli, a Bechstein or a Bösendorfer instead. I look forward to seeing, hearing and reading, how the new Production Voices Steinway, will be received.
Posted By: johnlewisgrant

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 06/25/17 03:10 AM

I would wait for the PV Steinway, before forking out the big bucks for the PV C7. Not that it's a poor vst. That it definitely is not, and on my lowly Kawai 100 keyboard, the bass seems to me very strong. eg...This bit of Bach (WTC 2 Fugue 16), where I used the Modern variant, with some added verb.... (can't remember which verb.): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOwGpIatWR0

BTW all the other Bk 2 pf use the HZP (not very playable), not the PV C7.

But I'm hoping that Jason has upped his game (which is already at a high level) with the Steinway.
Posted By: TheodorN

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 06/25/17 10:38 AM

The Production Grand actually sounds better to me than the recording of a real piano, from 1985, which is in a related video. Probably a Steinway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ivua8RuSSY
Posted By: pold

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 06/25/17 11:31 AM

I like what Production Voices is doing, and I hope they will start using Fazioli pianos soon, for sampling in my opinions they are the best ones, somehow they always end up being more realistic when you listen to them, compared to a Yamaha or a Steinway.
Posted By: johnlewisgrant

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 06/25/17 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by TheodorN
The Production Grand actually sounds better to me than the recording of a real piano, from 1985, which is in a related video. Probably a Steinway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ivua8RuSSY


The Tube's limited sonic capacities (128 kps AT BEST, with plenty of distortion) screw up everything. Having said that, I have that Schiff CD, and the sound (to my ears) has always been pretty weird. I think Schiff re-recorded these, actually.

The Tube ALSO distorts quite badly the sonic characteristics of any given piano vst, some more than others. The PV Yamaha seems to survive the Tube torture test pretty well. One think the PV Yammy does well, I think, is ppp to p. Smooth transition, as far as I can tell. And that's something you don't hear all that often in piano vsts.

Here's the PV Yammy around vel layers 2-32 (approx):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ykThdxMfqM

Compare, now, the same piece on the HZP, which, if memory serves, is basically a 4 layer vst:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azu1h_ZU7sg&list=PLP5BZzcdRkq0zO0dfrE3ZIGMcQTQQ9XTj&index=4

The midi file (which I don't give out) for the HZP had to be worked on very, very hard to get something approaching a ppp. It never really gets there. I confess to loving the HZP in spite of its massive issues; but lets face it, it doesn't do ppp. The PV, on the other hand? PPP is a piece of cake.

A bit apples and oranges, because they are totally different samples, but what the HZP has is high frequency realism, which (as I said here before) makes it sound like it's actually "in the hall". No need to add verb, at all. But "wet" is not on for many users, because while you can add verb to a dry sample, a wet sample can't be "unverbed," so to speak.
Posted By: TheodorN

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 06/25/17 03:18 PM

Perhaps my only gripe with AcousticSamples C7, is it doesn't go down there, to ppp. I admit I haven't played much with it's velocity curve, so I can't rule out that it handles soft playing adequately. Even if it doesn't, it's still great for a lot of music. The ability to play softly, may be another reason for me to get the PV C7 for Sforzando.

There is no indication their Steinway D will be available for the Aria engine. I really appreciate PV for releasing VSTis for a free player. Besides you can record through the Sforzando player, easily. Given the horrible experience I've had with Pro Tools | First, and Ableton Live 9 Lite, that's a big plus for me. Reaper might work better, though.

If the Production Grand for Sforzando were on sale, below $100, I'd jump on it. I may even get it at $129, the usual price. I've decided I'd like to get a new piano VST every two or three months. Piano is my hobby, and spending about $50 monthly on a hobby is not much.
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 06/25/17 03:26 PM

And now we have a new member of the G.A.S. club.
A new GASketeer!
Welcome, friend. And hide your wallet! smile
Posted By: mcontraveos

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 06/30/17 12:47 AM

Originally Posted by Cinjero


Anyone else notice the abrupt cutoff at 1:43? I was expecting at least a little residual resonance or vibration...
Posted By: newer player

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 11/28/17 05:48 AM

Today's new video for "Production Voices Concert Grand" to see how this Steinway is evolving.

There is some ambisonics fun plugin. The YouTube mix sound seems to be heavily tilted left on my headphones (and level indicators).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gGmoZ604J8
Posted By: newer player

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 12/20/17 03:38 AM

Update video for "Production Voices Concert Grand" in compact running on Sforzando

Concert Grand Compact vs Production Grand Compact Virtual Pianos (Steinway D vs. C7)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMcEymozApc
Posted By: karvala

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 12/20/17 11:16 AM

Sounds interesting; one of the VSTs I'm keen to hear proper demos of. It seems to be running a bit behind schedule, though? Meanwhile I also note that the various serious bugs with the Production Grand (Compact; will presumably be in other versions as well) have STILL not been fixed. Put those two things together, and I do wonder about Jason's ability to support a second instrument properly.
Posted By: newer player

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/24/18 02:11 AM

Update email from Production Voices Steinway D (no formatting or images below).

Hi Everyone,

Happy belated New Year!

It’s been a long time coming, but I finally got the first release of the Steinway D sampling session ready to launch.

Soon Production Voices will announce the launch for Concert Grand Compact, a Steinway D concert grand piano library available for the free Plogue sforzando. The piano library is just over 10 GB before compressing to FLAC. As the Compact name implies, it is much smaller and less taxing than the followup Kontakt version will be and the pricing will be very affordable at launch. Stay tuned for details and pricing!

With most libraries you want to be perfect before releasing, but this piano sample library is different. It will never be perfect. A piano is never perfect just as a human is never perfect. The more I deeply sampled this concert grand.. 20, 21, 22 velocities, the more mechanical noise got recorded from the 9' monster and the more it reminded me that the point of sampling is not just to capture the outward beauty of the tone, but also to capture the true nature of the instrument that pinged, clunked and clanked when notes were struck, just as it should. It reverberated the soundboard with every motion the instrument made. If you have ever recorded a voiceover, you’ll know what I am leading towards. A mouth is spitty and the tongue makes flapping sounds that you can’t hear just a few feet away. Well, stick a microphone (or 16 like we did) inside a piano's mouth and you start to hear the inner workings. So, the question was: Do you keep the noise or try to clean everything up and sterilize the sound into a “typical” piano sample sound? The answer emerged as: Leave the character but reduce the clanks of the key strikes just a bit. This noisy mammoth piano sounds warm, intimate and thumpingly mechanical with close microphones yet majestic on the distance microphones like the fine concert grand it is. What you will experience playing Concert Grand is the sound the concert pianist hears and less of what the audience hears. Watch the video demo below for to hear Concert Grand Compact in action.

Video of Concert Grand Compact vs Production Grand Compact:

https://vimeo.com/251195185/23b420c418

Concert Grand Compact is similar to Production Grand Compact, our Yamaha C7 sample library, in size and playability. The two are a great combo for any producer, performer or songwriter to have in their collection. As such, Production Voices will be launching a SFZ Piano Bundle that includes all of our piano samples libraries for sforzando at an exceptional value. More details to come in the next few days!

Sforzando Bundle Coming Soon! Get it all for one low price. Pricing to be announced!

2018 Plans:

2018 should be interesting with plans for a followup to Death Piano and maybe some ventures into the electric piano and virtual analog world. It all depends on timing and customer feedback! I may consider another big piano project if the right Fazioli, Bechenstein or Bosendorfer becomes available. Let me know if you have any leads to one of these fine instruments particularly if it has MIDI!

Many thanks to all of you who continue to support the work I do at Production Voices! It is the customer feedback that keeps me going!

Kind regards,

Jason
Posted By: Osho

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/24/18 02:30 AM

Thanks for the update, newer player.

Originally Posted by newer player

Video of Concert Grand Compact vs Production Grand Compact:

Pointer to this video?

Thanks,
Osho
Posted By: newer player

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/24/18 02:37 AM

Originally Posted by Osho
Pointer to this video?


Vimeo link for 8:22 video added. I think it is the same 8:22 Youtube video linked above. . .
Posted By: EssBrace

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/24/18 10:15 AM

Both the compact pianos sound great.
Posted By: Osho

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/24/18 04:24 PM

Both sounds great - looking forward to full Steinway D - any version on pricing for that?

THanks,
Osho
Posted By: emenelton

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/24/18 09:43 PM

The left right stereo spread is 'jarring'; what perspective is it?
Posted By: Cinjero

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/25/18 12:48 AM

Yup.
Posted By: newer player

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/25/18 01:03 AM

It's odd because the Ambisonics demo video from last month had some odd left and right issues. Seems more like a youtube video production issue vs. VI issue but not sure...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-HdGOwS-1U

Posted By: RichieBill

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/25/18 04:02 PM

https://www.productionvoices.com/product/concert-grand-compact/
What is the price? $19 ???
Is it any limited version of this virtual piano?
Which version of Steinway D was sampled, German or American?
Posted By: newer player

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/25/18 04:31 PM

$19 intro. One mic. Does not require Kontakt. Upgradable to full version (when available).

Concert Grand Compact is a high-quality piano sample library for the FREE Plogue sforzando sampled from a Steinway D concert grand piano in a world-class recording studio. Concert Grand Compact contains samples from the larger Concert Grand (soon to be released) without the need for the Kontakt sampler.

Concert Grand Compact takes arguably the best single microphone perspective from Concert Grand, our 1.3 TB Steinway D piano library, and places it in the Plogue sforzando player for a highly compact, fast loading amazing sounding virtual instrument piano that is easy to use and inspiring to play!

Description
9′ Concert Grand Piano in your computer!
Over 10 GB*
Format: FREE Plogue sforzando!
Delivered Immediately by Download

Concert Grand Compact Features:
Recorded with Neumann “Golden” M149 tube mics just outside the piano lid
24 bit 96k source samples reduced to 16 bit 44.1k using Goodhertz conversion
Round-robin pedal noise samples with normal and loud settings
Sampled key up mechanical noises from the actual keyboard action
Sympathetic Resonance with on/off and volume controls
Sostenuto pedaling
Recorded at world-Class Toronto studio through classic Neve console
Burl Mothership boutique-quality A/D converters used
Premium API microphone preamps used
12 – 15* velocities pedal up (selected from over 20 sampled velocities)
12 – 14* velocities pedal down (selected from over 20 sampled velocities)
8* velocities release samples (selected from 16 sampled velocities)
Ultrafast loading
Extremely memory efficient thanks to lossless FLAC compression

Digital download delivery: Immediately after purchase, download links are provided.
The files can be expanded using any ZIP utility. Mac users can simply double click the downloaded file.

System Requirements:
Requires 64 bit version of Plogue sforzando available HERE for free.
Mac OSX 10.7 or greater or PC with a 64 bit version of Windows
2 GB of free hard drive space. 8 GB RAM. Fast 7200 RPM hard drive or a solid state drive.
Solid State Drive or 7200rpm Hard Drive recommended for best performance.
*Note about file size: Concert Grand Compact samples are provided in FLAC format. FLAC is a loss-less file format meaning that it will sound exactly like the uncompressed WAV source files from the sampling session but take up less than half the disk space with no audio quality degradation. Concert Grand Compact source sample size before compression is over 10 GB! The digital delivery size is just about 3 GB with no loss in quality. * Individual note velocities per note may vary slightly.

Concert Grand Compact User Manual:
https://www.productionvoices.com/wp...oncert-Grand-Compact-SFZ-User-Manual.pdf

Upgradeable to the full version of Concert Grand:
Concert Grand Compact is upgradable to the full version of Concert Grand (when available), should you purchase Native Instruments Kontakt at a later time. If you are a Concert Grand Compact registered user wishing to upgrade to the full Concert Grand (not yet available), please contact support and request the upgrade.
Posted By: RichieBill

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/25/18 04:37 PM

I understood, that is basic version of this VST?
How about version of the piano, American or German?
Posted By: David B

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/25/18 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by newer player


Upgradeable to the full version of Concert Grand:
Concert Grand Compact is upgradable to the full version of Concert Grand (when available), should you purchase Native Instruments Kontakt at a later time. If you are a Concert Grand Compact registered user wishing to upgrade to the full Concert Grand (not yet available), please contact support and request the upgrade.


Will the full version use sforzando or some other sofware? What is Kontakt and what does is have to do with your Concert Grand Samples? Thanks.

God Bless,
David
Posted By: RichieBill

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/25/18 04:57 PM

I already got info from Production Voices Support, that is an American version of Steinway D.
Shame, I want a German.
Posted By: slobajudge

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/25/18 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by David B
Originally Posted by newer player


Upgradeable to the full version of Concert Grand:
Concert Grand Compact is upgradable to the full version of Concert Grand (when available), should you purchase Native Instruments Kontakt at a later time. If you are a Concert Grand Compact registered user wishing to upgrade to the full Concert Grand (not yet available), please contact support and request the upgrade.


Will the full version use sforzando or some other sofware? What is Kontakt and what does is have to do with your Concert Grand Samples? Thanks.

God Bless,
David

No, obviously full version use Native instruments Kontakt program. NI Kontakt is a sampler and home for lots of sample libraries. Through NI Kontakt you can load and play piano and lots of other instruments. Kontakt is a industry standard for sample libraries. Unfortunately you must buy it separately from instrument.
Posted By: toddy

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/25/18 09:23 PM

Originally Posted by slobajudge
Originally Posted by David B


Will the full version use sforzando or some other software? What is Kontakt and what does is have to do with your Concert Grand Samples? Thanks.

God Bless,
David

No, obviously full version use Native instruments Kontakt program.


Why is it obvious? There is a tendency for some major developers to circumvent Kontakt with their own platform. Sample Modelling (or a faction thereof) is a good example of this with their SWAM engine. The sfortzando player is somewhat similar to the Garritan CFX platform - indeed the cfx can be loaded into either player.
Posted By: karvala

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/25/18 09:47 PM

Originally Posted by toddy
[ The sfortzando player is somewhat similar to the Garritan CFX platform - indeed the cfx can be loaded into either player.


Indeed, they're both based on Plogue.
Posted By: Osho

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/25/18 09:49 PM

Originally Posted by toddy
Originally Posted by slobajudge
Originally Posted by David B


Will the full version use sforzando or some other software? What is Kontakt and what does is have to do with your Concert Grand Samples? Thanks.

God Bless,
David

No, obviously full version use Native instruments Kontakt program.


Why is it obvious?


Because it says so on the page:

https://www.productionvoices.com/product/concert-grand-compact/

Quote

Upgradeable to the full version of Concert Grand:
Concert Grand Compact is upgradable to the full version of Concert Grand (when available), should you purchase Native Instruments Kontakt at a later time. If you are a Concert Grand Compact registered user wishing to upgrade to the full Concert Grand (not yet available), please contact support and request the upgrade.

Osho
Posted By: toddy

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/25/18 09:59 PM

Originally Posted by Osho


Because it says so on the page:



Ahh well. That is obvious enough!
Posted By: bsntn99

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/25/18 10:41 PM

Post from another forum. Not sure of what the price will be at the official public launch.

"I am very excited to announce the release of Concert Grand Compact to you, our customers and subscribers ahead of the official public launch! I couldn't have made this Steinway D piano sample library without your input, feedback and support. So, what better way to thank you than to give you the best pricing and first access to Concert Grand Compact!
Starting today, Thursday January 25th, the sale begins. I will update the price each day. Hurry to get the best pricing early in the sale.

7 Day Sale:
Day 1: $19
Day 2: $29
Day 3: $29
Day 4: $34
Day 5: $39
Day 6: $44
Day 7: $49

Concert Grand Compact retails for $99. This is an excellent opportunity to save up to 80% if you get it early."

In any event, I already bought it and played a bit with it this morning. Compared to the Production Grand Compact, the sound is not as bright (no surprise), more full bodied and warm, especially in the lower registers. The hammer attack is discernible on each note whereas it is not as noticeable with PGC. I would say the hammer attack is a smidge more noticeable than the Grandeur or Vintage D. Overall, the library is very clear and unprocessed sounding.

Note to note timbre is very even across the entire range with nothing standing out. Appears this piano was is good condition and well set up. PGC had a number of notes that stood out with artifacts either due to hammer wear or other noises.

I did not come across any of the same issues with notes dropping out or sympathetic resonance sticking as with PGC (note Jason has an updated script in process which I tested that addresses these in PGC). The only issue I found was with trills or repetitions with the sustain pedal down, there is a significant release tail when you release the pedal that should not be there. This should be easily fixable in the script.

Overall, I think prefer the Concert Grand Compact over PGC. I hope to play around more tonight and compare it to some of my other libraries.
Posted By: newer player

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/25/18 11:03 PM

Thanks bsntn99 - that was enough of a kick to get me to drop 19$.

Downloading now - only 2.7GB
Posted By: karvala

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/25/18 11:29 PM

I've downloaded it as well; not time to install it yet, but will try to do so later, or else tomorrow. I'm a bit concerned with all the messages warning us about imperfect "real" piano sounds and piano noises; I'm bracing myself for a rather distant and noisy sound, but we'll see!
Posted By: TheodorN

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/25/18 11:49 PM

Joined the club. Won't have time to download and install until next week probably, and have sore eczema hands right now, so I can hardly play. I'm not really looking for a new piano VST, but because of this low starting price I pulled the trigger, out of curiosity mostly.

I like playing with those lightweight VSTis, even more than the big ones, because of the fast loading time, yet quite a lot of tweaking possibilities, especially in the case of the Production Voices libraries. Reaper gives me the chance to add EQ, so the minimal interface of Sforzando is not a big problem.
Posted By: RichieBill

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/26/18 12:40 AM

I downloaded it as well for curiosity wink I install tomorrow hopefully
Posted By: Cinjero

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/26/18 12:48 AM

ca ching... very nice, I'm sure the full version will be even more impressive.
Posted By: karvala

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/26/18 12:58 AM

Okay, rapid first impressions based on 30 minutes playing. It's another Production Voices piano, and it sounds like another Production Voices piano. Whether or not you think that's a good thing will depend on your opinion of their previous products. It has far more common in with the Production Grand Compact (and Yamaha C7 they did) than any other Steinway D sample I have. That's not to say it doesn't sound like a Steinway D - it clearly does and that's good - but the style of recording is the dominant feature. It's distant, which is partly because it's the outside mic perspective of course, but partly also the house style judging from their other instruments.

The good:-
(1) It sounds like a Steinway D.
(2) There is, always with their instruments, good clarity of individual tones i.e. minimal smudging; this and the distinctive timbre is sign of a good attack sample.
(3) It more or less works out of the box without any *huge* flaws (but see below).

The bad:-
(1) It sounds distant and veiled; it feels much more like playing a recording of a piano than playing an actual piano.
(2) The upper register is hugely underpowered; more generally there are significant balance issues across the keyboard which undermine dynamic control and clarity. Some areas are audibly louder than others.
(3) There seems to be an issue with pedal on/off samples, such that when releasing pedal and keys more or less simultaneously, you get a sudden increase in volume (presumably when the pedal off release samples kick in, and indicating that they are significantly louder for the same velocity layers, which is a significant flaw. Dialling down the release samples seems to help a bit.

I'll give more detailed impressions when I've had time to play it a lot more, but that's the initial impression. £13.79 (which is what I paid) is less than I've paid for a pizza in the past, so I can't complain. If I'd spent $99 on it, I wouldn't be too happy.

If you're thinking of buying it, ask yourself if you like their previous offerings. If you do, and you like a Steinway D sound, you'll probably like this. If you don't, then you probably won't.
Posted By: RichieBill

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/26/18 01:17 AM

Originally Posted by karvala

£13.79 (which is what I paid) is less than I've paid for a pizza in the past, so I can't complain.

laugh laugh laugh
Absolutely right! Me too, I paid £13.79, less than today's shopping in The Morrisons wink
...but !!!
I read on email from PV, that this version expiry on 1st February 2018 frown
Posted By: Beakybird

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/26/18 01:52 AM

Hopefully, more reviews will come in tonight. $19 is ridiculously cheap, but if I won't use it? ...
Posted By: bSharp(C)yclist

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/26/18 02:38 AM

Probably a silly question, but I'm guessing I can get this and the free player and use it similar to Pianoteq?
Posted By: bsntn99

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/26/18 02:57 AM

The player is free, so you are only playing $19 today for the Concert Grand Compact, that's it. Now Pianoteq has way more adjustability, but is a lot more expensive.
Posted By: newer player

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/26/18 05:16 AM

Quick first impression - generally very playable and responsive. Nice value @ 19$ if you would like to sample a well-recorded Steinway D.

Concert Grand Compact mid-mics (M149) respond a bit like the Garritan CFX with close-mics only (M49/KM184). Concert Grand Compact sounds a bit more distant (probably due to outside placement) and a bit more rogue. The pianos, prep, recording and room are rather different (obviously, I suppose).

Concert Grand Compact loads quickly and seems to run efficiently (say 44.1khz with a buffer of 48 on my mid-tier laptop). Unselecting the yellow lights under "key noise", "pedal noise" etc. (Controls tab) might boost performance if you have dropouts.

I tested with two good headphones and some consumer monitors/with a sub. Tomorrow, I will try a bit of reverb etc. in Reaper DAW.

Technical note - Concert Grand Compact has 96khz recordings downsampled to 44.1khz. Sforzando Free might have a minor quirk so running sample rate at 44.1khz might provide best sound quality / lowest noise.
Posted By: EssBrace

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/26/18 08:03 AM

I took the plunge.

I don't like it. There's some seriously jarring velocity switching going on; one or two are utterly bizarre in soft playing.

No half pedal so I just turned the noises down.

Latency. Small but certainly very noticeable and I felt quite disconnected from it. I'm no VST veteran but I do have PianoTeq, which tonally I have come to truly hate. But it just worked utterly intuitively from the outset and the sense of connection is entirely comparable to playing a DP's native sounds. I use a Macbook Pro, 8GB RAM with SSD. So I can't imagine the computer is the issue. I used all their recommended settings.

The actual sound of the piano is nice although it is a bit brighter than I expected it to be. I think the sustain and resonances are rather good but I'll never fire it up again due mainly to the latency.
Posted By: RichieBill

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/26/18 09:31 AM

What does it mean "Expires - 1 February 2018"?
https://m.imgur.com/gallery/mIrr3ZP
Posted By: toddy

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/26/18 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by rychubil
What does it mean "Expires - 1 February 2018"?
https://m.imgur.com/gallery/mIrr3ZP


The file will no longer be available for download after that date.
Posted By: RichieBill

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/26/18 10:31 AM

Thanks toddy smile
Posted By: TheodorN

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/26/18 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by karvala
(3) There seems to be an issue with pedal on/off samples, such that when releasing pedal and keys more or less simultaneously, you get a sudden increase in volume (presumably when the pedal off release samples kick in, and indicating that they are significantly louder for the same velocity layers, which is a significant flaw. Dialling down the release samples seems to help a bit.

This is exactly what happens with PV Kawai Estate Grand for Sforzando, and I've talked about it before. A bit irritating, that twirp which barks at you when releasing pedal and keys. This does not happen in the Kontakt versions of PV Studio Grand LE, and not in Prod. Grand 2 Gold, which leads me to conclude this is a Sforzando related problem, in the PV scripting.

Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
Probably a silly question, but I'm guessing I can get this and the free player and use it similar to Pianoteq?

The similarity is also that you can load MIDI files into Sforzando, and record as audio (not MIDI like in Pianoteq) what you play. Apart from Pianoteq, Sforzando libraries and Garritan CFX, which is based on the same Aria engine as Sforzando, are the only VSTis I know of, in which you can record audio and play MIDI files.
Posted By: newer player

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/26/18 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by EssBrace
There's some seriously jarring velocity switching going on; one or two are utterly bizarre in soft playing.

The actual sound of the piano is nice although it is a bit brighter than I expected it to be. I think the sustain and resonances are rather good


I also thought the overall sound was good. I didn't find it quite so jarring but hear a bit of mic phasing which is tough to address with only a mic pair just outside the piano. Plus there are no ambient mics to mix in some room smoothness. I will run this in my DAW and add some reverb or room effects and see how that helps...

Originally Posted by EssBrace
Latency. Small but certainly very noticeable and I felt quite disconnected from it. I'm no VST veteran but I do have PianoTeq, which tonally I have come to truly hate. But it just worked utterly intuitively from the outset and the sense of connection is entirely comparable to playing a DP's native sounds. I use a Macbook Pro, 8GB RAM with SSD. So I can't imagine the computer is the issue. I used all their recommended settings.


Funny, I thought the latency performance was quite good and aided by very little dead space at the beginning of the samples.

The recommended settings are rubbish. Please open Sforzando again, click on TOOLS>PREFERENCES.

-- Set "sample rate" to 44.100KHz

-- Set "buffer size" as low as you can get

--Click OK

** You may need to exit Sforzando a few times to reset and lower "buffer size". After a few tries I got it to 48 on a good but not great laptop.
Posted By: EssBrace

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/26/18 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by newer player
Funny, I thought the latency performance was quite good and aided by very little dead space at the beginning of the samples.

The recommended settings are rubbish. Please open Sforzando again, click on TOOLS>PREFERENCES.

-- Set "sample rate" to 44.100KHz

-- Set "buffer size" as low as you can get

--Click OK

** You may need to exit Sforzando a few times to reset and lower "buffer size". After a few tries I got it to 48 on a good but not great laptop.


Okay, many thanks. I'll have a go. My experience with software instruments is almost non-existent.
Posted By: toddy

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/26/18 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by newer player

Originally Posted by EssBrace
Latency. Small but certainly very noticeable and I felt quite disconnected from it. I'm no VST veteran but I do have PianoTeq, which tonally I have come to truly hate. But it just worked utterly intuitively from the outset and the sense of connection is entirely comparable to playing a DP's native sounds. I use a Macbook Pro, 8GB RAM with SSD. So I can't imagine the computer is the issue. I used all their recommended settings.


Funny, I thought the latency performance was quite good and aided by very little dead space at the beginning of the samples.


Depends on which note, and how hard you're playing it. C#2 played forte (but not p or ff) is way behind its neighbours. That is disconcerting and there are other slight inconsistencies - some characterful, others annoying. Apart that, it's got a nice presence this piano, and it is a good companion to the Yamaha C7. Good for €15.
Posted By: newer player

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/26/18 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by EssBrace
Okay, many thanks. I'll have a go. My experience with software instruments is almost non-existent.


EssBrace - ask any questions here or feel free to PM me. Sforzando is good software and easy to use.

Jason incorporated some nice "effects" in the player that are worth checking out. Just click on "snapshot" and pick something like "Classical Recital". (Update to latest Sforzando player if they don't work). Won't do any more tweaking until / unless Jason sends some script updates.
Posted By: Beakybird

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/26/18 04:13 PM

Does Sforzando work with other VSTs?
Posted By: Frédéric L

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/26/18 04:25 PM

Originally Posted by Beakybird
Does Sforzando work with other VSTs?

What do you mean ?

Sforzando is a VST, and the DAW can load many VST, but this is a characteristic of the DAW, not Sforzando which won’t be aware of the other VSTs.
Posted By: karvala

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/26/18 04:34 PM

That's correct, but just to be clear in case the meaning of the question was slightly different, Sforzando can load some other software pianos - essentially anything in aria format. Some old soundfont-based pianos (going back to the early 2000s) can also be converted and used in it. So, for example, the Garritan CFX actually works fine in it, because it's also based on Plogue's aria player. By contrast, you can't load anything that uses UVI Workstation or Kontakt Player, because they're in a different format.
Posted By: EssBrace

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/26/18 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by newer player
Originally Posted by EssBrace
Okay, many thanks. I'll have a go. My experience with software instruments is almost non-existent.


EssBrace - ask any questions here or feel free to PM me. Sforzando is good software and easy to use.

Jason incorporated some nice "effects" in the player that are worth checking out. Just click on "snapshot" and pick something like "Classical Recital". (Update to latest Sforzando player if they don't work). Won't do any more tweaking until / unless Jason sends some script updates.


Thank you very much for your kind offer! I will keep trying with it. The overall timbre of the piano and its sustain are great. I can see how the software route can be so beguiling because the sense of grandeur and realism with a bigger sample set (compared to a hardware DP) is easily appreciated.
Posted By: RichieBill

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/28/18 12:31 AM

I downloaded sforzando and made everything like manual described and nothing. No idea what to do frown
Anyone can describe me what should I do step by step?
Posted By: newer player

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/28/18 01:39 AM

Rychubil,

There are install steps for Mac & Windows. I can't remember the exact procedure but it took 5 minutes of tinkering so hope this helps

First, this Sforzando guide might help you a bit:

https://s3.amazonaws.com/sforzando/sforzando_guide_1.621.pdf

In the Sforzando, you might need to go to TOOLS>PREFERENCES. There you need to select Input device etc. Once you set those, click OK and exit Sforzando. Open Sforzando and make sure your choices stuck. If not reenter them and repeat this process.

Now open Sforzando, in the top left corner there is a drop-down labeled instrument. If you click that you should be able to select "Concert Grand Compact".

> If it does not show up, then you can simply open your "file explorer" in Windows or Mac, and follow step 5 below (make sure you unzipped "concert grand" folder as noted in step 2 below). Sometimes Sforzando does not let you drag and drop that file into Sforzando; try relaunching Sforzando or restarting your computer.

_____________________
https://www.productionvoices.com/wp...oncert-Grand-Compact-SFZ-User-Manual.pdf

Installing Concert Grand Compact for sforzando

Installation of Concert Grand Compact for sforzando is fairly straightforward:

1. Download and install sforzando: http://www.plogue.com/products/sforzando/

2. Download Concert Grand Compact for sforzando and unzip.

3. Place the “Concert Grand Compact for sforzando” folder on the drive that you wish to run it from. Any fast hard drive will work. If available, we recommend an SSD solid state drive for best performance.

4. Launch sforzando.

5. Drag the “Concert Grand Compact.bank.xml” file from within the “Concert Grand Compact for sforzando” folder onto sforzando. This registers your purchase with sforzando and puts the presets into sforzando.
_____________________

If you still have trouble, please note what equipment you are using (e.g. keyboard, interface, cable type, computer brand, version of Windows/OSX. Do you have any other VIs running?
Posted By: RichieBill

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/28/18 02:21 AM

Thank you newer player for very detailed explanation. Much appreciated smile
When I back home tomorrow, I do everything again exactly like you advised. Probably I missed something while setting of sforzando.

P.S. Currently I don't have any other VSTs on my computer.
Posted By: RichieBill

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/28/18 08:06 PM

I tried to do as if I were describing both manually and nothing. Sforzando shows me information about the demo version, Compact grand is still invisible for sforzando - waste of time and money for me.
I give up frown
Posted By: toddy

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/28/18 09:17 PM

Originally Posted by Rychubil
I tried to do as if I were describing both manually and nothing. Sforzando shows me information about the demo version, Compact grand is still invisible for sforzando - waste of time and money. I'm letting go this Compact grand and I do not recommend!


Have you unzipped the files and installed the sfz player? If so, all you need to do now is drag the (unzipped) Concert Grand Compact bank.xml file from its location (wherever you downloaded and unzipped it to) to the surface of the player (it actually says 'drop a supported file to start').

When you do this, you get a notice saying 'the piano is installed and registered' or some similar message. And that's it. You can even do this off line (I've just done it with my offline music computer).

It's actually one of the easiest install and registration systems - easier by far than Native Instruments and EWQL which can be a great big pain in the butt.
Posted By: RichieBill

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/28/18 09:50 PM

OMG! I downloaded chipsounds file instead sforzando - my silly mistake! Sorry for all mess.
I already instaled sforzando and Compact Grand runs but I have a big latency. What can I do with it?
Posted By: Frédéric L

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/28/18 09:54 PM

Big latency with what configuration ?
ASIO mode ?
Buffer size ?
Sample rate ?

On a PC, you must have an ASIO driver (given with the sound card, or else ASIO4ALL), I am ok with 128 samples per buffer at 44.1kHz.

Note, some people are more sensitive about the latency than I am.
Posted By: TheodorN

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/28/18 10:00 PM

Tools -> Preferences, Audio Device API is probably ASIO, and Audio Device something like Roland Quad Capture, or however it identifies itself, if you've set your Roland up properly.

Sample Rate, try 44100 Hz, can raise it if you get the latency down, and Buffer Size 128. May depend on your computer's specifiactions, if they're low, increase the buffer size, but that raises the latency.

On another note - no pun intended - has anyone noticed that the Concert Grand Compact goes silent when switching between presets?
Posted By: RichieBill

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/28/18 10:04 PM

Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Big latency with what configuration ?
ASIO mode ?
Buffer size ?
Sample rate ?


Dell Vostro 3460: i5, 2.50GHz, 8RAM, SSD
1. I had different Asio than my Roland Quad Capture - now is ok smile
2. Buffer size: 882 - I can't change it. How can I set a lower size?
3. Sample rate: 44100

Thank you very much guys for your quick help smile
Posted By: toddy

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/28/18 10:09 PM

882 at 44khz is too high. Are you using an ASIO driver? If you use ASIO4ALL, you should be able to reduce the sample buffer in its interface window. 128 sample buffer should be acceptable in terms of latency. But try to go as low as possible.
Posted By: TheodorN

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/28/18 10:10 PM

Can you choose Asio under Audio Device API?
Posted By: Frédéric L

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/28/18 10:11 PM

Normally, from the virtual piano (in standalone mode), or the DAW (VST mode), you have an « ASIO configuration option », or something like this which opens the configuration panel of your card, then you can change the buffer size. 882 is huge !!
Posted By: RichieBill

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/28/18 10:13 PM

Originally Posted by TheodorN
Can you choose Asio under Audio Device API?

Yes but I already change it for ASIO Roland Quad Capture which is my soundcard and I get 256 but still I can't change it to lower size.

Originally Posted by Frédéric L
you have an « ASIO configuration option », or something like this which opens the configuration panel of your card, then you can change the buffer size. 882 is huge !!

There is but available option is 256 only.
Posted By: TheodorN

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/28/18 10:30 PM

Just to make sure we understand each other, there are two settings in Tools - Preferences.

1. Audio Device API
2. Audio Device

The first, Audio Device API is the Application Programming Interface, sort of the driver. In my case (Focusrite Scarlett 2i4) it's only ASIO. In your case, it could be ASIO Roland Quad Capture.

The second, Audio Device, is the hardware you're using, and that's where you should be able to choose your Roland audio card, as the hardware.

So you must make the right choices in both settings drop-down lists, first the software/driver, then the hardware.

256 buffer size might be something you could live with, but you should be able to get at least to 128. Check if you have set the Roland audio interface up correctly, and refer to the manual or a Roland forum/support site for that. I don't have a Roland card, but someone here might.
Posted By: RichieBill

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 01/28/18 10:38 PM

Originally Posted by TheodorN
Just to make sure we understand each other, there are two settings in Tools - Preferences.
1. Audio Device API
2. Audio Device


Yes, you right!
1. ASIO
2. QUAD-CAPTURE

Fortunately latency gone and hopefuly I can use that number (256) without problems - we will see wink
Posted By: newer player

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 02/02/18 03:40 AM

Three quick audio uploads from Latvia using Concert Grand...

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/mus...t-20.html#post13115613&postcount=598
Posted By: TheodorN

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 02/02/18 12:24 PM

Nice demos, I don't think the PV Steinway D is mind-blowing, but it's not bad. With the price up to $39, if I were looking for my first piano VST, I would save up for something in the $100-$150 range, which could include the Garritan CFX, depending on available offers.

The PV Steinway D Concert Grand might be enough for many pianists, I mean the sound is good, and it loads fast. Personally, I like to have many mic perspectives in virtual instruments, better sound han the internal piano voices of my digital instrument, and having them respond like a normal piano to my playing.

If they don't sound better, or only a little bit better than my digital piano, I can just as well play the internal piano voices. Though it's nice to have some variety, not always be stuck with the same piano sound. The virtual instruments can also serve that purpose, be used to get away from the Casio/Kawai/Yamaha or whatever built-in piano samples.
Posted By: -Jay-

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 02/03/18 02:22 AM

Does anyone know when the full Kontakt version will be released?
Posted By: Cinjero

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 02/05/18 09:49 PM

I guess when Mr. Jason says so.
Posted By: newer player

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 04/17/18 09:32 PM

Free playable trial version of Production Voices Concert Grand Compact.

https://www.productionvoices.com/product/concert-grand-compact-demo/


I don't think this trail version was previously available:

"* Concert Grand Compact DEMO allows users to try Concert Grand Compact with just a few keys. All the C's and a limited range from G3 above middle C to C5 are available to try in the demo version.

* The controls and features are near identical to the full version except that keyup and sympathetic resonance has been disabled.

* There is NO TIME LIMIT on the demo version. Only select notes are available on the demo version."
Posted By: Digitalguy

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 04/18/18 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by newer player
Free playable trial version of Production Voices Concert Grand Compact.

https://www.productionvoices.com/product/concert-grand-compact-demo/


I don't think this trail version was previously available:

"* Concert Grand Compact DEMO allows users to try Concert Grand Compact with just a few keys. All the C's and a limited range from G3 above middle C to C5 are available to try in the demo version.

* The controls and features are near identical to the full version except that keyup and sympathetic resonance has been disabled.

* There is NO TIME LIMIT on the demo version. Only select notes are available on the demo version."



While this is better than nothing, it's little more than an octave... It sounds nice, but it's way too little to spend $200 to $280 to try the rest. Especially the bass that is completely missing from the demo...A less defensive approach would have led to more sales IMO.
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 04/18/18 12:17 PM

Agreed. Pianoteq's demo removes around a half-dozen notes. This demo removes around 70 of them?
That's not a demo. That's a practical joke.
Posted By: TheodorN

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 04/18/18 02:14 PM

Well, you should have got it for $19, when you had the chance. cool The Compact version is not bad, at least well worth $19. For $49, not so sure.

I'd rather recommend the Estate Grand for Sforzando for that money, since it's got three microphone pairs, not one like the Concert Grand Compact.

I myself will probably not get the full Concert Grand, simply for the reason I don't want the third SSD into my setup, or to have to exchange one of the 240/250GB SSDs for a 500GB one.
Posted By: propianist

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 04/18/18 07:50 PM

I think Production Voices quickly put this demo out this week because of the recent release of the brand new Light And Sound Concert Grand Steinway Model C software piano with 11 mic perspectives on sliders plus a separate factory "Mix" perspective. L&S full product is on introductory offer for $99 USD / £71.56 GBP until 30 April.

After all, both products are pretty similar being Steinways with a very wide choice of mic perspectives, running in Kontakt (although are PV now using Plogue?), and many customers wanting to purchase a big Steinway virtual piano this year might opt for the new L&S available now for bargain price, rather than waiting until Production Voices full version is available ?????? and paying maybe 3 times the price for that instead, so Production Voices might fear they are losing potential sales and want to remind people of their forthcoming product.
In fairness, the Production Voices Steinway Compact version is already available now for $49, but that's a significantly stripped back version of the forthcoming full product.

Obviously if you're a die hard Steinway fan like me you'll be buying both...!
Posted By: michaelvi

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 04/20/18 07:30 PM

Originally Posted by propianist
Obviously if you're a die hard Steinway fan like me you'll be buying both...!
I am not dying yet (hopefully) smile but I was hunting for Steinway software piano several times with no much success (Galaxy Vintage D and PV Compact don't work for me, True Keys American almost does but not fully). So I am really interested if anyone here has experience with Light and Sound Concert Grand...

EDIT: Sorry I ran too fast with my question. I later found Light and Sound Concert Grand dedicated thread that answers it very well smile
Posted By: Digitalguy

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 04/20/18 08:46 PM

Originally Posted by michaelvi
Originally Posted by propianist
Obviously if you're a die hard Steinway fan like me you'll be buying both...!
I am not dying yet (hopefully) smile but I was hunting for Steinway software piano several times with no much success (Galaxy Vintage D and PV Compact don't work for me, True Keys American almost does but not fully). So I am really interested if anyone here has experience with Light and Sound Concert Grand...

EDIT: Sorry I ran too fast with my question. I later found Light and Sound Concert Grand dedicated thread that answers it very well smile

Haven't you tried Ivory German D or American yet? Those are IMO the best virtual Steinways aroud.
Posted By: michaelvi

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 04/21/18 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by Digitalguy
Originally Posted by michaelvi
Originally Posted by propianist
Obviously if you're a die hard Steinway fan like me you'll be buying both...!
I am not dying yet (hopefully) smile but I was hunting for Steinway software piano several times with no much success (Galaxy Vintage D and PV Compact don't work for me, True Keys American almost does but not fully). So I am really interested if anyone here has experience with Light and Sound Concert Grand...

EDIT: Sorry I ran too fast with my question. I later found Light and Sound Concert Grand dedicated thread that answers it very well smile

Haven't you tried Ivory German D or American yet? Those are IMO the best virtual Steinways aroud.

Thank you Digitalguy for suggestion. Ivory II ACD is in my wishlist under N1 but not for nearest time - I already spent too much time and money evaluating a number of different software pianos (far not all are in my signature) and currently CFX Lite is my main (and almost the only) instrument for practicing. I prefer to save money for full CFX upgrade first smile. Next try will be ACD - unless by that time community opinion will shift to something new smile. I asked about Light and Sound Concert Grand not buy it immediately but because I am still collecting information for some future smile...
Posted By: Frédéric L

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 04/21/18 01:59 PM

You can try ACD on try-sound.com... the latency is huge, but you can hear if the timbre is ok for you.
Posted By: michaelvi

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 04/21/18 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by Frédéric L
You can try ACD on try-sound.com... the latency is huge, but you can hear if the timbre is ok for you.

Thanks Frédéric! Yes, I'll probably do it.
Posted By: newer player

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 05/19/18 03:10 PM

I revisited the PVCGC this week.

I tried this with monitors & sub, 3 way decent computer monitors, big open-backed headphones, a few iems. It sounded much better to my ears with my good iems (JVC HA-FX850); not sure why. I would encourage owners to try this VI with nice iems (well inserted into ears for low fq response).

The VI's sampling is clean and clear and it has a lot of the character of my teacher's Steinway. The VI is responsive, fun to play, and I like the sound of the piano and the room. The distance, velocity groups, pedalling challenges were addressed by others above and I hope they are all sorted for the full PVCG release.
Posted By: Cinjero

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 06/14/18 11:28 PM

Many users have been asking me about what is happening with Concert Grand, our Steinway D piano library for Kontakt. I'm happy to report that it is near completion! It has been an epic journey, but worth the wait!

I’ll have more audio demos and videos soon! Let me know if you are interested in helping create audio demos! There are incentives!

I have delivery size numbers at the following, but it may change slightly:

Concert Grand Platinum 24 Bit 96 kHz Approx. 342 GB compressed or 658 GB uncompressed
Concert Grand Gold 24 Bit 44.1 kHz Approx. 157 GB compressed or 299 GB uncompressed
Concert Grand LE 16 Bit 44.1 kHz Approx. 77 GB compressed or 200 GB uncompressed
Concert Grand Full All sample rates Approx. 576 GB
Here is what is complete:

Interface, controls and functions
Concert Grand LE and Gold samples are already uploaded on our server ready for download.


Left to do:

Keymap minor sample refinements and final adjustments. Concert Grand is very useable in its current state, but there are minor refinements to do.
Upload Concert Grand Platinum samples.
Video demos, marketing materials, audio demos etc.
Factors slowing us down:

Should this be a licensed Kontakt library that includes Kontakt Player and plays nicely with NKS? This process will take an additional two months, is an extra expense and requires a royalty payment for each product sold. My thoughts on the matter are that Concert Grand is so large and represents a higher-end product that the majority of users will already own Kontakt. The flip side of the argument is that licensing Kontakt Player may open it up to a larger audience.

Challenges:

How do you make downloading 576 GB manageable?

One of the biggest concerns that Production Grand 2 users had was downloading 207 GB and only being able to download 3 or less files at a time! We are experimenting with Continuata download manager for Concert Grand. There are challenges such as Windows users having random issues getting the newer version of the software to work based on the version of Windows users have. Hard drives are an option, but for Production Grand, European orders were not reliably delivered. Hard drives have an added expense. What do you pack them in and do customers expect an unboxing moment when the package arrives?

Pricing:

This is all subject to change, but this is likely what we are looking at for pricing without Kontakt Player licensing:

Concert Grand LE: $149
Concert Grand Gold: $229
Concert Grand Full $329
Upgrade pricing from Concert Grand Compact to Concert Grand LE will be available.
Sale pricing: Likely we will launch first to existing customers and offer discounts to Production Grand 2 owners.
Release dates:

Crossing fingers that July 2018 for Concert Grand LE and Gold. Concert Grand Full: August?

More info to come.

Thanks for hanging in here with me! Concert Grand is a great product and I can't wait for you to give it a try in your everyday playing and production.



Kind Regards,

Jason Chapman
Production Voices
Posted By: angmyu

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 06/15/18 02:55 AM

Fantastic! I've been waiting for a long time!
I already own the Compact version, so I wonder what the upgrade price will be. Can I upgrade to LE version only?
I'm looking forward to July. smile
Posted By: Granyala

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 06/15/18 03:58 AM

Yikes, half a TB for a Piano library?
Kinda overkill don't you think?
Posted By: newer player

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 06/15/18 06:11 AM

Very excited for this.

@Granyala - I think the "smaller" 16/44.1 version will be just fine for me. The Garritan CFX is also at 16/44.1.

The Kontakt question is complex. Personally, If getting a Kontakt Free version takes signifincat development time and money, I would rather see those resources directed at making the very best VI possible.
Posted By: TheodorN

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 06/15/18 10:30 AM

I have the Compact version, and I really like it as well. However, hundreds of gigabytes, calling for yet another SSD, make it a deal breaker for me. If the upgrade path to Concert Grand LE is cheap, it's a remote possibility I'll get it.

I felt the same about this new Embertone Steinway discussed elsewhere. That one is only 34GB for each mic pair, so about 102GB for me, as I wouldn't take less than three mic positions.

Pianoteq, with the new Steingraeber, even Blüthner, might be next on my wishlist, possibly CinePiano, or Wavesfactory Mercury, which actually weighs in at about 34GB. At least I don't want another disk space gobbler.
Posted By: bsntn99

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 06/15/18 03:41 PM

The main difference for a Kontakt (free) Player version is that the developer has to pay NI to compile a unique nicnt file and then pay for separate licence keys for each user. He has to buy these in blocks. Then you authorize the software with your license key through Native Access and library is added to the left menu. So he would have to pass this cost on to you.

For full Kontakt, a developer has nothing to do. He just gives you the files and you open them using the browser. It's no different then if you made your own instrument library. Essentially, NI makes you pay (Kontakt Full) or the developer pay (Kontakt free). Either way NI gets their money.

I'm getting concerned as well with the size of some of these libraries. I passed on the Synchron CFX because of the size and don't really need all the mics and velocity layers. I like the ala carte option on the Walker Steinway. I know here Jason is giving you a lot of mics, thus the size, even though there are just 12 velocity layers. Like above I am somewhat interested in the LE version, but getting to the point I have to invest in another SSD.
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 06/15/18 03:50 PM

Just when I thought that 100 Mbps internet service was fast enough ... and now comes a library sized at 250GB !
That's a five hour download. frown
Posted By: EPW

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 06/15/18 04:12 PM

MacMacMac I was thinking the same thing. Only way I would ever consider this Mega Piano library is if it came on a
SSD hard drive. Really makes my decision to go will Pianoteq look good. I figure modeling for me is the future.
Posted By: newer player

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 06/15/18 05:23 PM

I can download the LE overnight so like that option. But for those with "slower" internet service, a regular USB 2.0 key at 128GB for LE is a good option in my view.

A decent 128GB USB key is robust, easy to ship, almost universal, and retails for around $25. It provides a nice backup for the consumer. If you can get the LE compressed files closer to 64GB, say by throwing away a mic pair, the 64GB USB key is half the price.

Of course USB 3.x is faster but it still has some Windows compatability issues and might be a bit more expensive. Those with USB-C can provide more colour for that connector.
Posted By: TheodorN

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 06/15/18 05:26 PM

About the Kontakt 5/Kontakt Player issue, the reason Jason gives for wanting to have his new Steinway only for Kontakt 5, is the library is very large, representing a higher-end product, and it's likely the majority of users will already own Kontakt. See his email, which Cinjero publishes here earlier.

So it seems his niche is the professionals, or semi-professionals, though the line between an amateur and a (semi)-professional, can be blurry. There is nothing wrong with that, and it's one way to cut costs, and get the selling price down.

As we've discussed, the major stumbling block of this new VSTi, is it's huge size, not the Kontakt 5/Player issue. Actually the RAM might be another bottleneck. I got extra 16GB for my computer, to be able to load all microphone positions of the Production Grand 2 Gold, which is a lot smaller library than Production Steinway D Concert Grand.

Anyhow, I recommend getting the full Kontakt 5, at least for those who qualify for the crossgrade price, €124,50, when it's 50% off. Not because of PV's new Steinway, but because it opens the doors for many other interesting libraries, like from Cinesamples, and Chocolate Audio.

I've read some comments elsewhere, stating that Kontakt 5 is problematic for virtual piano instruments, but I've not experienced it. Don't know if that's because I am tone deaf or not, ha ha!
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 06/15/18 05:50 PM

There are alternatives. I got google internet a year ago. They offer 1000 Mbps. So that would be a 30 minute download.
But at the time I figured that 100 Mbps was enough.
Originally Posted by EPW
I was thinking the same thing. Only way I would ever consider this Mega Piano library is if it came on a
SSD hard drive. Really makes my decision to go will Pianoteq look good. I figure modeling for me is the future.
Posted By: EPW

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 06/15/18 06:32 PM

Not in my neck of the city. Don't think it is coming anytime soon.
Sad part is I'm in a big metro area. Most I can get is 100Mbps
Posted By: bsntn99

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 06/15/18 07:44 PM

I know a number of folks here who do not have full Kontakt and so this is an issue for them. As far as getting the crossgrade pricing which is currently on sale for $125, ironically it only works if you have a third party library they recognize and already has a Kontakt player version. So for most, they would have to pay full price and would not qualify for the discount pricing. NI has some really convoluted pricing policies.
Posted By: newer player

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 06/15/18 08:01 PM

Agreed NI has some opaque and expensive pricing schemes. That is an issue here.

I have seen this Kontakt $125 crossgrade trick a few places (but haven't tried myself):

Originally Posted by Fleer
You can get the crossgrade price with the free Sennheiser drummic'a (http://de-de.sennheiser.com/drummica).


http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...layer-vs-kontakt-5-full.html#Post2626829

https://www.native-instruments.com/...akt-5-player/kontakt-player-vs.-kontakt/
Posted By: TheodorN

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 06/15/18 08:49 PM

Think I qualified for the crossgrade price after I got Galaxy German Grand, at €80. Didn't buy it just to get Kontakt 5 at a reduced price, think I bought a few more Kontakt Player compatible instruments after that. Never had the intention to get Kontakt 5, but then suddenly did one day, guess it's called G.A.S by some.
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 06/15/18 09:21 PM

Expensive, yes.
But not opaque. They tell you straight up: You gotta pay a lot!
Originally Posted by newer player
Agreed NI has some opaque and expensive pricing schemes. That is an issue here.
Posted By: Cinjero

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 06/15/18 10:28 PM

I've used Continuata as a download manager for other products; its reliable which I would hope what he decides to go with, download links are 80s tech.

342 is a lot of pianos (2 x the Yamaha)---- I could squeeze it onto my SSD (2) ~ 2tb or my SSD (3) ~1t, either have the space... hmm what to do...
Posted By: angmyu

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/02/18 11:13 AM

What day will the release date be? I am eagerly awaiting this. I can't wait to hear the demos smile
Posted By: Max_Forte

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/12/18 10:46 PM

Is there any chance that by the miracle, soundwise final release of the Production Voices Concert Grand can be as good as Embertone Walker 1955 Steinway D? Demo here doesn't sound as good...

https://vimeo.com/222850726/6293497e54

Should I wait for a release?
Posted By: -Jay-

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/12/18 11:35 PM

Originally Posted by Max_Forte
Is there any chance that by the miracle, soundwise final release of the Production Voices Concert Grand can be as good as Embertone Walker 1955 Steinway D? Demo here doesn't sound as good...

https://vimeo.com/222850726/6293497e54

Should I wait for a release?


The demo sounds okay to me but I did notice that it was posted a year ago. The more or equally important question is how playable is the piano library going to be. Embertone has received some criticism in this aspect on this forum although I think i read somewhere that Embertone are working on updates.


Posted By: newer player

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/12/18 11:57 PM

Maybe this is a better representation of Production Voices Concert Grand. Still an early demo from 9 months ago.

But has several mics. It might requre headphones for proper sound with Ambisonics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gGmoZ604J8
Posted By: Max_Forte

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/13/18 12:58 AM

newer player

Thanks. Saw this demo... Sounded flat to me. Hate that video. He said: "Cracks caused by a computer, not by a Concert Grand library" and this cracks are on their other videos too. I haven't seen such an unprofessional attitude elsewhere. Guys, if your computer is so weak, then you need to buy a new computer! Customers will not believe you or will think your software is so "Heavy" that will not run on their laptop. You have to buy 12 Core Xeon but don't even mention about the cracks! I suspect that they even don't have an 88 key keyboard during the demos... Look at the limited key range they press...

PV shines on "How you should act to prevent the selling of your products". Their demos are Zero informative! 90% of sounds played the Middle and the High register. Buyers want to hear the Low register too! Please, do something with your demos! Just find one good pianist and tell him to play all the keyboard long and post these videos.

They spent their time in things as "ambisonics" and "under the piano mics"...

Posted By: angmyu

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/13/18 01:52 AM

Originally Posted by Max_Forte
newer player

Thanks. Saw this demo... Sounded flat to me. Hate that video. He said: "Cracks caused by a computer, not by a Concert Grand library" and this cracks are on their other videos too. I haven't seen such an unprofessional attitude elsewhere. Guys, if your computer is so weak, then you need to buy a new computer! Customers will not believe you or will think your software is so "Heavy" that will not run on their laptop. You have to buy 12 Core Xeon but don't even mention about the cracks! I suspect that they even don't have an 88 key keyboard during the demos... Look at the limited key range they press...

PV shines on "How you should act to prevent the selling of your products". Their demos are Zero informative! 90% of sounds played the Middle and the High register. Buyers want to hear the Low register too! Please, do something with your demos! Just find one good pianist and tell him to play all the keyboard long and post these videos.

They spent their time in things as "ambisonics" and "under the piano mics"...



Not flat to me.
However, that demos are a long time ago, not even demos after the release.
It is not too late to criticize the product after the official demos.
In other words, it's too early to judge everything with incomplete demos. Let's wait for the release.
Posted By: -Jay-

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/13/18 02:46 AM

Originally Posted by newer player
Maybe this is a better representation of Production Voices Concert Grand. Still an early demo from 9 months ago.

But has several mics. It might requre headphones for proper sound with Ambisonics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gGmoZ604J8


Thanks for posting this. Sounds quite nice to me, just hope the playability is as good as Galaxy or CFX.
Posted By: Max_Forte

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/13/18 12:48 PM

I have to say that the playability of Production Voices' pianos is great, the samples are clean and UI design of the Production Grand 2 is the best in my opinion. It's a pity their demos don't show the actual level of their software. I purchased Production Grand 2 only because of the advice of users ( BTW thanks guys) on this forum, demos were useless. Now it is my second favorite piano VSTi (after Vintage D).
Posted By: newer player

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/13/18 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by Max_Forte
Thanks. Saw this demo... Sounded flat to me.


The PVCG Compact does not sound flat to me and the lower registers have quite a bit of energy. There are some issues with what I call a *beta release Compact which are noted clearly above. This beta released 6 months ago shows a lot of promise if the quirks are ironed out.

Originally Posted by Max_Forte
Hate that video. He said: "Cracks caused by a computer, not by a Concert Grand library" and this cracks are on their other videos too


The computer pops and crackles are probably from trying to run the video software and piano together. I found them distracting as well. One of the early videos has an apparent L-R balance issue. But I would prefer Jason focus on getting the VI as good as possible so I do not care about the video updates or ambosonics so much.
Posted By: Max_Forte

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/13/18 10:41 PM

Audio demos. Sounds much better than on early videos.

Playlist on Sound Cloud:

https://soundcloud.com/productionvoices/sets/concert-grand
Posted By: karvala

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/14/18 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by newer player

The PVCG Compact does not sound flat to me and the lower registers have quite a bit of energy. There are some issues with what I call a *beta release Compact which are noted clearly above. This beta released 6 months ago shows a lot of promise if the quirks are ironed out.


The lower registers are indeed not bad. It's the upper registers that concern me; very weak and decaying far too quickly. I do hope he finds a way to address that.
Posted By: newer player

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/14/18 03:30 PM

Thanks for posting those demos Max Forte.

Interestingly, the third demo was posted 2 years ago and has no, "Kontakt scripting or "magic" done to the samples."

The other four demos were posted 17 days ago with "no processing (no EQ, no reverb, no compression)."

You can see the details written in soundcloud if you click on the track name. . .
Posted By: -Jay-

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/14/18 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by Max_Forte
Audio demos. Sounds much better than on early videos.

Playlist on Sound Cloud:

https://soundcloud.com/productionvoices/sets/concert-grand


Thanks for posting. I agree, piano sounds better again via these audio demos.
Posted By: Max_Forte

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/14/18 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by -Jay-
Originally Posted by Max_Forte
Audio demos. Sounds much better than on early videos.

Playlist on Sound Cloud:

https://soundcloud.com/productionvoices/sets/concert-grand


Thanks for posting. I agree, piano sounds better again via these audio demos.


You are welcome. it is really interesting as they sounds really different. Maybe it's because of their traditionally bad quality walkthrough videos.
Posted By: Max_Forte

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/15/18 02:08 AM

Is it possible to rename this thread to "Production Voices - Concert Grand" ?
This product will become very popular, so it will be great to collect all the useful information in this thread.

With all the respect to OP, the present name of the thread is confusing as it looks like it was posted in "Digital pianos" forum by a mistake.
Posted By: -Jay-

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/15/18 03:05 AM

Max_Forte - That makes sense but only a moderator could change that.
Posted By: Max_Forte

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/15/18 02:23 PM

I want to share with you an exceptional video of a recorded Yamaha C7 with Neumann KU 100 Dummy Head Microphone.

Youtube video is under the spoiler. Use your high-quality headphones and start the video from 2:03. It is incredible! This is the beauty of a real acoustic instrument that we don't hear in the VSTis...

I'd like to get one this mic perspective in my VSTi instead of ambisonic, under the piano, 2 rooms, outside etc! It is not very difficult.

String resonance triggered by a voice sounds so beautiful!

Posted By: Max_Forte

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/15/18 02:35 PM

I meant mic position named "# 5 position Under the Hood" in the video, usually "Close mic" in many VSTis
Posted By: angmyu

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/15/18 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by Max_Forte
I want to share with you an exceptional video of a recorded Yamaha C7 with Neumann KU 100 Dummy Head Microphone.

Youtube video is under the spoiler. Use your high-quality headphones and start the video from 2:03. It is incredible! This is the beauty of a real acoustic instrument that we don't hear in the VSTis...

I'd like to get one this mic perspective in my VSTi instead of ambisonic, under the piano, 2 rooms, outside etc! It is not very difficult.

String resonance triggered by a voice sounds so beautiful!




very beautiful sound that I wanted to get from Piano VSTs.
But they usually don't have this nuance.
Posted By: slobajudge

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/15/18 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by angmyu
Originally Posted by Max_Forte
I want to share with you an exceptional video of a recorded Yamaha C7 with Neumann KU 100 Dummy Head Microphone.

Youtube video is under the spoiler. Use your high-quality headphones and start the video from 2:03. It is incredible! This is the beauty of a real acoustic instrument that we don't hear in the VSTis...

I'd like to get one this mic perspective in my VSTi instead of ambisonic, under the piano, 2 rooms, outside etc! It is not very difficult.

String resonance triggered by a voice sounds so beautiful!




very beautiful sound that I wanted to get from Piano VSTs.
But they usually don't have this nuance.

Exactly how Embertone Steinway D sounds. Main mics plus close mics gives you everything that you hear from this video. And there is binaural above the shoulder also.Thats why I love them the most. They record that resonance like you are there. Thanks Max, fantastic video.
Posted By: toddy

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/15/18 05:58 PM

Excellent recording. Neumann binaural set very impressive indeed. Beautiful sound and a rare case (for me anyway) of binaural that actually works: the sound is outside your head, outside the phones, over there and all around. Great!
Posted By: newer player

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/15/18 06:00 PM

That guy has some interesting binaural recordings on his site. Worth checking out a few videos.

I think the Neumann binaural head is a bit hit-or-miss. I don't think it is very compelling on the Garritan CFX (although I like the default mics).
Posted By: toddy

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/15/18 06:15 PM

I think the Neumann binaural head is a bit hit-or-miss. I don't think it is very compelling on the Garritan CFX (although I like the default mics).
Binaural has always been hit and miss for me, but this youtube recording worked for me. The most effective binaural recording I ever heard - it sounded just like real solid objects in real space - was made by me using two matched but very cheap dynamic microphones and my own head as the dummy. This suggests that the system is dependent on one's own psycho-acoustic make up, and one's own acoustic memory.
Posted By: Max_Forte

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/15/18 06:38 PM

Now after you've listened to it try another Interesting thing with the same video: Watch it without headphones! Yes, use your speakers! smile I use my JBL - LSR305.

It sounds on speakers very good too!

I think this point shows the potential of binaural recordings in the sampling technology and the unused power of sampling itself! We see that much higher quality samples can be recorded. And much higher quality can be achieved in VSTis. As in any other field, needed engineers with the fresh mind and thoughts.
Posted By: toddy

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/15/18 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by Max_Forte
Now after you've listened to it try another Interesting thing with the same video: Watch it without headphones! Yes, use your speakers! smile I use my JBL - LSR305.

It sounds on speakers very good too!

I think this point shows the potential of binaural recordings in the sampling technology and the unused power of sampling itself! We see that much higher quality samples can be recorded. And much higher quality can be achieved in VSTis. As in any other field, needed engineers with the fresh mind and thoughts.


Yes, it sounds good on speakers. There is an immersive, upfront real-life sound that you don't normally get. However, the full binaural effect, which is quite impressive - even shocking - at first, can only be got with (reasonably) good stereo phones. I'm not sure that you'd always want this sound perspective in a VST piano, but it's certainly a useful option to have.
Posted By: Max_Forte

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/15/18 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by toddy
Yes, it sounds good on speakers. There is an immersive, upfront real-life sound that you don't normally get. However, the full binaural effect, which is quite impressive - even shocking - at first, can only be got with (reasonably) good stereo phones. I'm not sure that you'd always want this sound perspective in a VST piano, but it's certainly a useful option to have.


Exactly! You can easily mix it with other perspectives or use alone on headphones as binaural! Great option to have instead of "under the piano", "ambisonics" or another useless in my opinion mics.
Posted By: newer player

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/20/18 07:08 PM

Main Page Walkthrough

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_a6NFTFImM
Posted By: Cinjero

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/21/18 01:32 AM

Originally Posted by newer player
New videos from Production Voices Concert Grand (Steinway D) covering presets and Ambisonics:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cUAHd148X0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRKkRMTfx5o

Video description says August 2018 release. Jason also stated Concert Grand & Production Grand 2 shared same: studio, equipment, mics (but Concert Grand has a few additional mics)

Updated website includes:

Full $??? (24/96.0, 1.1TB)
Gold $249 (24/44.1, 299GB)
LE $149 (16/44.1, 200GB)

9 mic positions. Kontakt 5.7 and above (not for Kontakt Player).


Hmm, I don't see those specs....

Concert Grand Platinum 24 Bit 96 kHz Approx. 342 GB compressed or 658 GB uncompressed
Concert Grand Gold 24 Bit 44.1 kHz Approx. 157 GB compressed or 299 GB uncompressed
Concert Grand LE 16 Bit 44.1 kHz Approx. 77 GB compressed or 200 GB uncompressed
Concert Grand Full All sample rates Approx. 576 GB

This is all subject to change, but this is likely what we are looking at for pricing without Kontakt Player licensing:
Concert Grand LE: $149
Concert Grand Gold: $229
Concert Grand Full $329
Upgrade pricing from Concert Grand Compact to Concert Grand LE will be available.
Sale pricing: Likely we will launch first to existing customers and offer discounts to Production Grand 2 owners.
Posted By: newer player

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/21/18 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by Cinjero
Hmm, I don't see those specs....


I quoted uncompressed size from the website - your data is more relevant as that is actual disc storage required.

Jason updated prices but I'll take your prices too!
____

Main Mics Walkthrough video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhKAziI2GAE

Master FX Walkthrough video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1iHmXKCRPA

Settings Page Walkthrough video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gxkl8O9x1xc
Posted By: angmyu

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/22/18 05:07 AM

Is the release date is August, not July?
Posted By: jackifus

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/23/18 06:14 AM

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
There are alternatives. I got google internet a year ago. They offer 1000 Mbps. So that would be a 30 minute download.


I'm in a *very* rural location - so I pay $1/Gb ... which makes the download cost greater than cost of the software!

hmmm...
Posted By: Gabriel Hikaru

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/23/18 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by jackifus
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
There are alternatives. I got google internet a year ago. They offer 1000 Mbps. So that would be a 30 minute download.


I'm in a *very* rural location - so I pay $1/Gb ... which makes the download cost greater than cost of the software!

hmmm...


Me too! I have satellite internet, so I only get 80 GB a month to use. -_-

Hopefully the full version will come on a hard drive. I believe the full version of Production Grand 2 was available on a hard drive?
Posted By: Cinjero

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/24/18 10:29 AM

Great sound with the demo links. Problem is of course speculation on You-Tube "sound" and what equipment he's using... I would imagine it would sound better once in our own hands. Also interesting was the mics "on" but the sliders down or nearly down; I've seen that w/the C7 but didn't make much sense, now it does... although after trying it I wouldn't say it adds a lot.
Posted By: Cinjero

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/24/18 11:50 PM

https://www.productionvoices.com/product/concert-grand-gold/

Concert Grand Gold
$249.00

Available Soon!
Concert Grand Gold is a premium 299 GB, 9 microphone piano sample library sampled from a Steinway D New York 9' Concert Grand Piano built for the full version of Kontakt 5.7 and above (not for Kontakt Player).

If you listen to classical or jazz piano recordings, chances are that is a Steinway D, the iconic king of the concert stage. For decades, performers have requested the warmth and grandeur of the Steinway sound. It is in heavy contrast to bright pop production pianos found in many recording studios. It’s elegant and refined. Every engineer has a slightly different way of recording such a large instrument and every player wants to hear a different aspect of the sound. This is why Concert Grand’s 9 microphone control is so important. You can dial in a variety of tones with microphone placements that are time-tested by audio engineers. Concert Grand let’s you take control of your sound unlike any piano library before it. The ambisonics channel is a leap forward in sample library flexibility. Be warned! Concert Grand captures all this Steinway has to offer including its thumps and bumps and louder than most mechanical noises. We didn’t strip away the imperfections, but let them contribute to the authentic piano sound.

Concert Grand Gold takes the 24 bit 44.1k samples from the larger Concert Grand, our 1.1 TB Steinway D piano library, and makes for a faster loading, amazing sounding virtual instrument piano that is easy to use and inspiring to play!

Out of stock
Posted By: -Jay-

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/26/18 09:19 AM

How much of a difference in sound is there via the 16 bit vs 24 bit versions if your DAW is set to 24 bit anyway ?

Anyone know the bit-depth of Garritan CFX Concert Grand samples?
Posted By: Cinjero

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/26/18 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by -Jay-
How much of a difference in sound is there via the 16 bit vs 24 bit versions if your DAW is set to 24 bit anyway?

Anyone know the bit-depth of Garritan CFX Concert Grand samples?


Sound and the can of worms----- sound is subjective to the person, as many would say. I prefer 96/24; but for notable sound differences, it could vary with systems/speakers, etc.

Not sure about the bit version w/CFX.
Posted By: slobajudge

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/26/18 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by Cinjero
Originally Posted by -Jay-
How much of a difference in sound is there via the 16 bit vs 24 bit versions if your DAW is set to 24 bit anyway?

Anyone know the bit-depth of Garritan CFX Concert Grand samples?


Sound and the can of worms----- sound is subjective to the person, as many would say. I prefer 96/24; but for notable sound differences, it could vary with systems/speakers, etc.

Not sure about the bit version w/CFX.

I think that CFX samples are 16 bit 44.1khz
Posted By: newer player

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/26/18 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by bsntn99
The samples are 16/44 for the CFX.


http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...an-cfx-sample-frequency.html#Post2710075
Posted By: newer player

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/26/18 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by -Jay-
How much of a difference in sound is there via the 16 bit vs 24 bit versions if your DAW is set to 24 bit anyway ?


From a practical perspective, your amps, speakers, headphones and ears will see zero difference between 16 and 24 bit.

24 bit files are huge so require bigger SSDs. But for music producers, 24 bit provides some technical advantages.

As Cinjero notes, higher sample rates can provide benefits; some DAC and output stages "reproduce" sound more "correctly" using sample rates of say 48 or 96KHz.

PianoTeq is a different beast than sampled pianos; the Pro version "synthesizes sounds" more effectively at 192KHz vs the typical 48KHz of cheaper versions (there is a thread on the PianoTeq site with some files you can compare a few notes). That is different than sound reproduction in the previous paragraph.
Posted By: TheodorN

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/26/18 09:53 PM

Now, 550GB SSDs only need to go down to $50, and this VSTi might become an option. cool
Posted By: Cinjero

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/26/18 10:03 PM

Originally Posted by TheodorN
Now, 550GB SSDs only need to go down to $50, and this VSTi might become an option. cool


Cool. My only concern is this piano seems to be even more rich than the C7 ---- so what DAW/Kontakt issues will arise? Adding reverb or other plug-ins seem to randomly cause issues (cracking, etc) with PG2. Kontakt alone is pretty solid (just the piano).
Posted By: TheodorN

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/27/18 09:59 AM

Meant to say 500GB, the typing error devil crept in on me. I know Crucial MX300 is 525GB, but I don't think there are any 550GB SSDs.

I haven't tried my PG2 Gold with any external reverbs or plug-ins, but it's a sin if it causes crackles. I've felt I'm giving my CPU enough work with four or five microphone pairs on, so I've not been taxing my system with anything more on top, not that I recall at least.
Posted By: Cinjero

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/28/18 10:37 PM

Concert Grand Release Date: August 7th
Many Production Voices users have been asking what’s going on with Concert Grand, our soon to be released 9-mic Steinway D piano sample library for Kontakt 5.7 and higher.

We’ve gone through beta testing and have had great responses with users raving about Concert Grand’s sound and playability! This makes the nearly three years of work worthwhile! Check out the audio demos below to hear what Concert Grand can do.

I have been working hard at putting the finishing touches on it and making sure that this massive piano sample library can be downloaded without any trouble.

Some PC beta testers had issues getting our downloader to work and we had some website issues with codes not being delivered properly, but we’ve worked these out and I’m happy to say that will be ready to launch Concert Grand on August 7th.

Audio Demos Available Now
I’d love if you would check out the demos on Soundcloud:

https://soundcloud.com/productionvoices/sets/conce...

Concert Grand Features:
9 microphone perspectives
Ambisonic 3D sound control
Binaural player mic position
24 bit 96k source samples
Round-robin pedal noise samples with normal and loud settings
Sampled key up mechanical noises from the actual keyboard action
Sympathetic Resonance with on/off and volume controls
Burl Mothership boutique-quality A/D converters used
20+ velocities pedal up per key
20+ velocities pedal down per key
16 velocities release samples
Advanced half-pedal control with catch
Custom installer to automate the installation process


Stay tuned for videos, intro pricing and Concert Grand Compact upgrade pricing!


Kind regards,

Jason Chapman

Lead Designer

Production Voices
Posted By: RobR

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/28/18 11:03 PM



Hi Jason:) The soundcloud link you provided is broken. I think you cut some words from the link while pasting it.
Posted By: rach3master

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/28/18 11:21 PM

I reckon it's this link.

https://soundcloud.com/productionvoices/sets/concert-grand
Posted By: Cinjero

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/30/18 12:36 AM

Originally Posted by tdwctdwc


Hi Jason:) The soundcloud link you provided is broken. I think you cut some words from the link while pasting it.


Yeah, Jason probably didn't get that but I guess the link didn't paste over correctly. rach3master provided the correct one.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/30/18 12:53 AM

I don't think Cinjero is Jason, is he?

If not, it would perhaps have been better to enclose Jason's message using the quote function of the forum, to make this point clear.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: Cinjero

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/30/18 01:08 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
I don't think Cinjero is Jason, is he?

If not, it would perhaps have been better to enclose Jason's message using the quote function of the forum, to make this point clear.

Kind regards,
James
x


No he is not. Laugh,

That post was just a copy I took from an email I got (being a Production Grand owner). Just passing on the update/info.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/30/18 01:12 AM

Yes, that's what I thought - thanks for clarifying. wink

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: RobR

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/30/18 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by Cinjero
Originally Posted by tdwctdwc


Hi Jason:) The soundcloud link you provided is broken. I think you cut some words from the link while pasting it.


Yeah, Jason probably didn't get that but I guess the link didn't paste over correctly. rach3master provided the correct one.

Probably didn't get that? Trying to be funny? Next time please put a quote on your message so we know it was not Jason or just write " i got an email/update from PV saying..." .
Posted By: Cinjero

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/30/18 05:58 PM

"He's a direct link with some apparently updated information."

https://www.productionvoices.com/product/concert-grand-gold/
Posted By: mcoll

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/30/18 08:04 PM

I don't think it's reasonable to be bothered by the criticism, Cinjero. That's what your quotation marks would suggest.
In all fairness, your post at the top of the page is signed with "lead designer...". That's misleading. Just something worth keeping in mind smile
Posted By: Cinjero

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/30/18 11:00 PM

Originally Posted by mcoll
I don't think it's reasonable to be bothered by the criticism, Cinjero. That's what your quotation marks would suggest.
In all fairness, your post at the top of the page is signed with "lead designer...". That's misleading. Just something worth keeping in mind smile


Reasonable?

Really??

Yeah, it's not unreasonable to know how to read a forum and understand how it works. Did you check page 1, post 1?

OMG.... wow. EOL.

Quote
Production Voices (production grand) has announced / updated the progress @90%. With released possibly in the FALL.

Total library (all versions 24/96, 24, 16) nearing 580 gigs. (gulp) ~ 16 bit alone is 100 gig.
Posted By: newer player

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/31/18 12:33 AM

Ok - let's revert back to the VI discussion.

Thanks for the updated links. As this was recorded at 24/96, I am tempted to grab the Gold. But the SSD requirements are a bit large and I am not sure this would play on my older laptop.

So I would like to see a "player special" version at 16/48 because:

+ much less SSD space required

+ easier to use with older computers

+ 48KHz might sound better than 44.1KHz (48KHz easily derived by dividing by 2 & more headroom for our DAC filters)

+ 16 bit samples provide plenty of dynamic range for consumers who are not producing/editing music

- Will require more SSD space & more computer horsepower than 16/44.1
Posted By: mcoll

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/31/18 05:34 AM

So I was right to perceive your quotation marks as sarcasm ha
But I didn't expect you'd take offense that much... Especially at a friendly remark. Sorry for the offtopic...
Posted By: karvala

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 07/31/18 09:32 AM

Originally Posted by newer player

+ 48KHz might sound better than 44.1KHz (48KHz easily derived by dividing by 2 & more headroom for our DAC filters)


I'm glad you picked up on that; I noticed that as well, and it does seem a bit strange. Downsampling to 48Khz to save space and have essentially no impact on the sound makes a lot of sense, but downgrading to 44.1Khz just because it's the CD standard, and introducing small aliasing effects while doing so and potentially increasing further distortion from any subsequent filtering, doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Posted By: angmyu

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/07/18 02:29 PM

out now
Posted By: TheodorN

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/07/18 08:47 PM

To buy or not to buy. That is the question.

$99 for Concert Grand LE, tempting.
Posted By: Max_Forte

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/07/18 09:50 PM

Really hard to buy another one piano VSTi if you already own so many that you even can't mention all of them in your signature...
Posted By: Max_Forte

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/07/18 10:17 PM

Now I want to buy something that sounds like a real instrument (Ok, ok, as close as it's possible smile ).

Watch this incredible video. Priceless content. These guys caught a "soul" of each instrument with a very simple setup without dozens of microphones.

Especially listen from 00:59 Body and soul of Steinway D at all its beauty!


Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/07/18 10:19 PM

Hard to buy more you say?
Originally Posted by Max_Forte
Really hard to buy another one piano VSTi if you already own so many that you even can't mention all of them in your signature.
Unfortunately, Max, that's not true.

That's why this fool and his money were often parted ...
- 4Front True Pianos
- 8DIO 1928 Steinway
- 8DIO 1929 Legacy Piano
- 8DIO 1969 Legacy Piano
- Alicia's Keys
- Amore Grand Piano
- Analogic Piano
- Aria Maestosa
- Berlin Concert Grand
- Cinesamples Piano in Blue
- Galaxy Steinway
- Galaxy Vienna Grand
- Galaxy Vintage D
- Garritan Classic Pipe Organs
- Garritan Steinway
- Imperfect Samples Fazioli Ebony Concert Grand
- Imperfect Samples Old Black Grand Pleyl
- Imperfect Samples White Baby Grand
- Jonathans Glockenspiel
- Kawai EX Pro
- NI Berlin Concert Grand
- NI New York Concert Grand
- NI The Gentleman
- NI The Giant
- NI The Grandeur
- NI The Maverick
- NI Vienna Concert Grand
- NI Vintage Organs
- Pianissimo
- Realsamples Italian Harpsichord
- Salamander Piano
- Sampletekk WG2 Studio Grand Piano
- Signature Piano
- SoniMusicae Blanchet 1720
- Sonivox Harpsichord
- Synthogy Ivory 1.5 Bosendorfer
- Synthogy Ivory 1.5 Fazioli
- Synthogy Ivory 1.5 Steinway
- Synthogy Ivory 1.5 Yamaha
- XLN Audio Addictive Keys 1.0.6
Posted By: Max_Forte

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/07/18 10:24 PM

I completely understand you MacMacMac . That's why I want something different, not similar to what I already have.
Posted By: Max_Forte

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/07/18 10:50 PM

My favourite demo tracks of Production Voices - Concert Grand

https://soundcloud.com/productionvo...y?in=productionvoices/sets/concert-grand

https://soundcloud.com/productionvo...1?in=productionvoices/sets/concert-grand

On these tracks, I can feel the body of the Grand piano. I think adding some reverb (not built-in) will increase that feeling.
Posted By: TheodorN

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/07/18 11:19 PM

Max_Forte, did you really think I'd let the short space for the signature stop me? cool Though your list is longer.

Otherwise, MacMacMac nailed it. Interesting to see the list over his GAS attacks. wink I've actually considered the majority of those piano VSTs at some point in time.

One question though, isn't the Old Black Grand Pleyel from AcousticSamples? I don't see any mention of a Pleyel on the ImperfectSamples website.

I like the video from Stefan Mendl, and have seen it before. Seems they just put microphone pairs above the hammers, but a little back, maybe a mixture of what is called hammer and far/room microphones, by the VSTi companies.

Well recorded, and captured, by the Synchron Stage Vienna guys, not saying it isn't, but I don't think it's anything the VSTi companies can't capture, or haven't, at least not the big names in the business.
Posted By: mcoll

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/08/18 04:48 AM

Wow, Mac, that's an impresive (/disturbing) list. If there's an average price of 100e/VST, you're looking at some top-of the line digitals or a nice used acoustic.
Albeit, you have 40 pianos there, not just one.
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/08/18 08:28 AM

I don't remember what I paid for these pianos. Some were cheap. Some were even free.
It was not surprising that the freebies were of poor quality.
But it WAS surprising that some of the high-priced ones were crap.

I think I may have outgrown the G.A.S syndrome. I haven't bought a piano this year, nor last.
But this board and the many threads where new pianos are discussed make it hard!
Posted By: Grazilerimba

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/09/18 06:54 PM

I am really happy that this is out. I can relate to what some people here say about having too many VSTs and about not wanting to invest too much more into even more libraries. Thing is, this library right here has been in the making for years, and no matter how it will actually turn out, the work that went into it is probably unprecedented. Or perhaps VSL CFX might come close with its ten mics and hundreds of gigs. But from what I can tell, this is a one man show. Blows my mind how he was able to pull this off. With all the delays I thought that perhaps he's gonna quit, but now it is finished! Awesome. Much respect.
Posted By: RobR

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/09/18 07:25 PM

I might go for this eventually but honestly i'm at the point where i can safely say without hesitation or "only ifs" that i found my go-to piano in the VSL CFX.

It took me a long time to find a piano that not only excels in tone and playablity, but also sounds amazing and full in the final mixdown on any system you throw it in (car stereo, PA system, phone, ipad, laptop speakers, you name it...).

You know that signature cologne you put when you go out on any occasion because you know it will be appropriate no matter what. That's how i feel about the VSL CFX.

The only reason why i might got for this Steinway D in the future is out of curiosity, to see if all the hard work put in making it translates and lives up to the specs.
Posted By: TheodorN

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/09/18 10:14 PM

I will most likely pass on the introductory offer. If it goes on sale later down the line, I might get it, and might even pick it up at the full price, if it will be considered good by other users.

I'm talking about Concert Grand LE, as I'm reluctant to go for libraries occupying more SSD space, which is still rather expensive.
Posted By: propianist

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/10/18 09:15 AM

I've already got the Production Voices Steinway Concert Grand COMPACT version, but it has the following serious issues...
For me, unless those issues are 100% working (in the full version), it's a deal-breaker, so not I'm buying it.
Anybody able to confirm either way, please?


1. Cannot play a note silently, no matter how slowly I depress the key.

2. Sympathetic string resonance doesn't really work...
Without sustain pedal, hold down any key like middle C (almost silently!), then briefly strike any related notes in the harmonic series ABOVE or BELOW and they should cause the held-down middle C note's undamped string to start resonating in sympathy at its fundamental or harmonic pitches, depending which note pitch excited their resonance... and you'll hear their resonant ringing continuing as long as you keep holding down the silent middle C key. We all know this, right?!
But on PV Concert Grand Compact, it's not working properly... It only works for notes ABOVE (eg. strike a high C octave ABOVE and you hear that high C's pitch ringing from middle C's undamped harmonic) whereas for any related notes BELOW it doesn't work, eg. strike lower octave C and it should excite middle C's undamped fundamental pitch, at least, to ring in sympathy, but IT DOESN'T WORK.


Perhaps Production Voices can comment on this, or release an update to fix things. Otherwise I assume it's the same for the full version too....???
Posted By: Cinjero

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/10/18 12:19 PM

First Impressions...

(No I am not Jason, just to make that clear)

There are 72 RAR files (2gig each, until the last one). Great move to use the download manager (I've used it with other products). So, for myself, it took maybe 45 minutes or less (250 ~ 425mbs) and the downloader also unpacks and installs everything. Next, get the presets from your email link----- pretty easy (pretty much the same setup if you have the Production Grand). Load up Kontakt...

This impression is from only Kontakt, not my DAW where I could add additional speakers----- so with that; the sound is very clean, crisp, sharp. Some same problems with loading a preset (like PG) you might wind uploading everything even though you're only using a few mics; this seems to be caused by turning all the volumes down on unused mics but still loading the samples; just something to be aware of if your system temporarily freezes.

Issues from this:

Quote

1. Cannot play a note silently, no matter how slowly I depress the key.

2. Sympathetic string resonance doesn't really work...
Without sustain pedal, hold down any key like middle C (almost silently!), then briefly strike any related notes in the harmonic series ABOVE or BELOW and they should cause the held-down middle C note's undamped string to start resonating in sympathy at its fundamental or harmonic pitches, depending which note pitch excited their resonance... and you'll hear their resonant ringing continuing as long as you keep holding down the silent middle C key. We all know this, right?!
But on PV Concert Grand Compact, it's not working properly... It only works for notes ABOVE (eg. strike a high C octave ABOVE and you hear that high C's pitch ringing from middle C's undamped harmonic) whereas for any related notes BELOW it doesn't work, eg. strike lower octave C and it should excite middle C's undamped fundamental pitch, at least, to ring in sympathy, but IT DOESN'T WORK.


-1------ Not sure what you mean; slowly eventually there is a faint sound and maintained if held. Of course, pressed harder----- sound is louder.
-2------ As above, I don't believe this is a problem.

In addition, I have both the PG and this compact version----- there "compact" for a reason, hence smaller samples and functionality.

I've only briefly played with the inside (max) and outside (3/4) and it sounds just as good and better than the demos. I think Jason has refined this piano from lessons learned with the C7, I'm pretty impressed anyway.

$149, yeah a good deal.

If there's any specific question---- I can try to test it for anyone.
Posted By: bsntn99

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/10/18 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by propianist

1. Cannot play a note silently, no matter how slowly I depress the key.

2. Sympathetic string resonance doesn't really work...

The reason for #1 was that the sympathetic resonance was not working properly with a silent note, so Jason set the minimum velocity at I think 2 - so no silent note, but the sympathetic resonance issue went away. This actually was something I emailed him on in the Production Grand Compact. This is a unique issue with the soundfont in Sforzando and not Kontakt.

For #2, the programming is set to trigger sympathetic resonance only on matching harmonics above the note pressed as you indicate. I can't remember exactly how this is scripted, but it may be easy to change. I'll take a quick look tonight as I also have Concert Grand Compact.

I was initially going to get the Concert Grand LE, but I am a bit ticked off right now on the upgrade policy. When I bought Concert Grand Compact during the launch, the marketing clearly said it would be upgradable to the Kontakt version. After some back and forth emails with Jason, he essentially told me I didn't pay enough to get upgrade pricing, so I was out of luck. Essentially then this is false advertising. He admitted he marketed this poorly, but is holding his ground. I also own 3 other libraries, and not even any consideration for this. I was only looking for a $5 or $10 dollar discount. So at this point, I am not inclined to buy any more products from him since he doesn't seem to honor his commitments. It's really a matter of principle to me and not the money here being asked for. Other developers I have bought from have always stepped up and did the right thing. So pretty mad at the moment on this.

I've spent a lot of time with CGC and as far as the sound quality in various compositions (working on Debussy Reverie currently), I find the bass a smidge weaker then some of my other vsts. It has quite a hard attack which takes away a bit in terms of delicacy. There are some upper notes, especially at forte levels that have excessive metallic ringing. Other than this, the sound is very clear, almost clinical, with good stereo presentation.

Given my current state of mind and from comments I read here and elsewhere, I am inclined to spend my money (and ssd space) on the Embertone Walker once I know the pedalling and other issues have been addressed.
Posted By: Max_Forte

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/10/18 06:13 PM

Originally Posted by bsntn99

I was initially going to get the Concert Grand LE, but I am a bit ticked off right now on the upgrade policy. When I bought Concert Grand Compact during the launch, the marketing clearly said it would be upgradable to the Kontakt version. After some back and forth emails with Jason, he essentially told me I didn't pay enough to get upgrade pricing, so I was out of luck. Essentially then this is false advertising. He admitted he marketed this poorly, but is holding his ground. I also own 3 other libraries and not even any consideration for this. I was only looking for a $5 or $10 dollar discount. So at this point, I am not inclined to buy any more products from him since he doesn't seem to honor his commitments. It's really a matter of principle to me and not the money here being asked for. Other developers I have bought from have always stepped up and did the right thing. So pretty mad at the moment on this.


bsntn99
PayPal dispute helps well in such cases. I've opened cases on PayPal several times. Works just great. Human has to hold responsibility for his words. But be ready to prove all stated with email screenshots etc.
Open a dispute and inform the Pianoworld community about the progress.
Posted By: bsntn99

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/10/18 07:38 PM

Thanks Max Forte, but this is really not something I want to get into as the dollars are pretty insignificant here and probably would come across as very petty on my part if not already. I understand Jason's position that he has to recoup the money spent on developing CGC and that the intro price was very cheap, but I think myself and others are getting to the point where we buy many products from a developer and expect some acknowledgement of our loyalty. Not looking for a freebie, just some way of saying thanks for supporting us over the years. There have been some discussions over at vi-control on this topic. Just venting my frustration here which I probably shouldn't.
Posted By: propianist

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/10/18 07:55 PM

Hi bsntn99,

Did you perhaps buy PV Concert Grand Compact back when it was crazy cheap at launch like $19....?
If so, I think you've probably already had all the discount you're ever gonna get - more than most people!!! Remember many other people will have paid the full $99 retail price for Compact in the later inbetween months, before it went back on sale again, so PV has to maybe compensate those people some money back to tempt them to upgrade. Especially because their pricing has fluctuated down and up and down so much even 80% discount in a short space of time, and customers will feel a bit ripped off if they've paid far more than others, then see it back on sale again afterwards. Annoying.

I myself paid $44 (= £ 34.65 GBP ) sale price recently (end of July) and am pretty happy with it as a Steinway D multisample for that price. Can't complain, except for those two aforementioned issues...

1. Cannot depress a key silently, no matter how slowly I move the key.
2. Sympathetic string resonance doesn't work for notes below, only for notes above.

Thank you for confirming those two issues DO exist in the full Kontakt version.
And obviously you understand, like I do, why these unrealistic behaviour bugs are a serious issue which would bother a pianist, if they're used to acoustic pianos or other nice stage pianos / software libraries that work right - and indeed, many do; it's one of the first basic quality tests I'll do with any new digital piano I try.

I think the Soundcloud factory demos sounded okay - not blown away - but not sure if I need dozens of mic perspectives at a 300GB size. Storage is expensive when you're running Samsung 960 Pro NVMe SSD drives!
I'm normally suck a sucker for Steinway D libraries I would have jumped in head first and bought the max spec version, but having downloaded the free Compact demo first, then being promised a financially fair upgrade route, I just decided to start at the cheapest option first this time, as I've bought three or four software libraries this year already which I've been far less than 100% impressed with.
Posted By: Max_Forte

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/10/18 08:53 PM

Is it possible to resell Production Voices' VSTis? If I don't like it, what can I do? Is there license transfer policy? I know EU laws force all vendors to allow license transfers, but what if they refuse?
Posted By: Grazilerimba

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/10/18 09:14 PM

Yeah the upgrade policy isn't what you would expect as a long time customer, but on the other hand I can also kind of understand it. As ProPianist said, getting the Concert Grand Compact for 20$ is more of a discount than the introductory price for the LE edition would grant its buyer. I think the developer just wants to avoid giving away too much for a way too low price.

From what I understand, the upgrade policy is that, as an owner of Concert Grand Compact, you get a discount for the price you paid for it, minus 20$. These 20$ are conveniently just the amount that the Compact Edition cost on its first day release special sale. When I first saw that I was a bit mad, but then I understood that, had I actually paid or would I pay the full price for both the Compact and LE/Gold editions, I would have paid twice the full full retail price. So that made it easier to accept.

I have only seen a couple of short videos from the developer, and he doesn't come off maliciously in any way to me. He rather seems a bit reserved. I don't know, it doesn't seem like he is trying to mislead people. In his case, I'd personally give him the benefit of the doubt but I also don't know much about him either.

@Max Forte
I don't know about the license transfer policy, but you might want to consider this (from the terms and conditions page):

"Production Voices samples have been watermarked with a unique ID code identifying you as the user. Any illegal copying and distribution of these files will result in legal action."
https://www.productionvoices.com/terms-and-conditions/

On the product page of the Concert Grand it says that you have to backup your files on your own. I assume that you won't be given more download codes in the future. Considering the section quoted above it makes sense: The samples must probably be rendered or produced every time for each individual buyer, and then served to him.
So if you ever transfered your license, and if he would refuse to render new sample files (for the simple reason that it said so on the product page), your buyer would have your ID Code in the files, tieing you to those files. That doesn't seem like a good idea to me because then you have no more control over what happens with that and that would open the door for a lot of unpleasant possibilities.
Posted By: Max_Forte

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/10/18 09:44 PM

Originally Posted by Grazilerimba
your buyer would have your ID Code in the files, tieing you to those files. That doesn't seem like a good idea to me because then you have no more control over what happens with that and that would open the door for a lot of unpleasant possibilities.

Sure,
That's why I asked about the legal license transfer.

But I think some vendors force users to act as they think they are right.
Posted By: karvala

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/10/18 10:15 PM

Thanks for the first impressions review, Cinjero. Quick question: how similar is the overall sound/feel of this to the Compact version? Obviously this will be more flexible with the different mic settings, but would you say the Concert Grand Compact is representative of the full versions?

Looking forward to reading more reviews here. The demos sound more or less okay, if nothing particularly special, but we all know that sound demos can be highly misleading so I'm not putting much store by them. I'm not generally a fan of the PV style, so I'm not sure this is for me, but I'm somewhat curious. I picked up the Concert Grand Compact dirt cheap for $19 (so no upgrade discount for me either!), which was fine for the money but had some serious flaws that I described much earlier in the thread. If the full versions are similar, but with more mic settings, then I might take a pass. If they're significantly better, though, it might be worth a punt for the LE verison.
Posted By: Cinjero

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/10/18 11:25 PM

Originally Posted by karvala
Thanks for the first impressions review, Cinjero. Quick question: how similar is the overall sound/feel of this to the Compact version? Obviously this will be more flexible with the different mic settings, but would you say the Concert Grand Compact is representative of the full versions?


I would say the compact version is just that---- maybe a tease, a sample of the beast beneath while the full version is the beast in all its glory. The sound is simply louder, rich and full--- em, like a piano. :-)

Unfortunately, I would have to review this like some pre-Production Grands (C7) I have---- this is really good---- to wow, now that is some power. hehe, Eh, the Prius was nice, but the Mustang Shelby---- yeah. lol
Posted By: angmyu

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/11/18 01:41 AM

Originally Posted by bsntn99

I was initially going to get the Concert Grand LE, but I am a bit ticked off right now on the upgrade policy. When I bought Concert Grand Compact during the launch, the marketing clearly said it would be upgradable to the Kontakt version. After some back and forth emails with Jason, he essentially told me I didn't pay enough to get upgrade pricing, so I was out of luck. Essentially then this is false advertising. He admitted he marketed this poorly, but is holding his ground. I also own 3 other libraries, and not even any consideration for this. I was only looking for a $5 or $10 dollar discount. So at this point, I am not inclined to buy any more products from him since he doesn't seem to honor his commitments. It's really a matter of principle to me and not the money here being asked for. Other developers I have bought from have always stepped up and did the right thing. So pretty mad at the moment on this.

I've spent a lot of time with CGC and as far as the sound quality in various compositions (working on Debussy Reverie currently), I find the bass a smidge weaker then some of my other vsts. It has quite a hard attack which takes away a bit in terms of delicacy. There are some upper notes, especially at forte levels that have excessive metallic ringing. Other than this, the sound is very clear, almost clinical, with good stereo presentation.

Given my current state of mind and from comments I read here and elsewhere, I am inclined to spend my money (and ssd space) on the Embertone Walker once I know the pedalling and other issues have been addressed.


I agree.

As a compact owner, I was also embarrassed about the rationality of pricing upgrades to LE. It is technically the price is not an "upgrade" price. I inquired of him, but his answer was obvious. Especially I waited for a year for PV's Concert Grand launch though the release is delayed continuously. On account of my great expectations of the release, disappointment is also big regardless of the quality of Concert Grand.
I'll buy a full version of Embertone like you, maybe.
Posted By: Cinjero

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/11/18 01:58 AM

I may be unfair to throw Jason under the bus, especially when he's not the driver, just the sound engineer who works for a company; which in turn needs to make currency.

I'd agree that some of the "promises" fell short; for instance a discount to Production Grand owners---- I don't recall being asked/contacted with any discount, yet it was probably in the fine print: contact customer support (yet oddly it appears only to be Jason).
Posted By: bsntn99

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/11/18 04:09 AM

Originally Posted by propianist

1. Cannot depress a key silently, no matter how slowly I move the key.
2. Sympathetic string resonance doesn't work for notes below, only for notes above.

I had a chance to play around a bit tonight with CGC. For #1, I was able to set a silent key by setting the minimum velocity to 2 for every appropriate sample in the script. This means a light touch equals a velocity of 1 and no sample plays. But, if you hit a correct harmonic, you will get the sympathetic resonance. The problem with Product Grand Compact is when this was set up like this and you released the key, the sympathetic resonance would continue to play. This does not seem to be an issue with the Concert Grand Compact.

I checked for #2 and sympathetic resonance is set up to play at 1x8va, 1x8va+fifth, 2x8va, 2x8va+fifth, and 3x8va above the note. So five resonances per note possible. I checked my CA-95 and the resonances trigger at one adjacent note above and below, octaves above and below, and some mixture of thirds, fourths, and fifths It is possible to add this programming, but is quite a bit of work. Not sure how the Kontakt version will be set up.
Posted By: propianist

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/11/18 10:52 AM

Thank you bsntn99.

Re: number 1.
I don't suppose you could elaborate, or walk us through exactly what you did editing the script, or where we find the relevant line entry to edit? Do you mean edit the sfz file in a text editor like notepad?
I'd like to have a little play around with it for myself - out of curiosity.

Re: number 2
Yes, my Kawai MP8 does the same, above and below and immediate chromatic neighbours. Actually the chromatic notes are rather annoying - real piano's don't do that!!!!
But obviously if you're hold a big juicy right hand chord and playing some bouncy staccato bass notes underneath it, you want each bass note to excite a bunch of resonant harmonics from the held chord, which PV Concert Grand is NOT doing, so it sounds unrealistic to me.
I could maybe forgive the cut-price Compact version, in Sforzando, because I know it's meant to be a limited, streamlined version without all the features, possible to lure you to pay for full-price version, but if even the main Kontakt version can't do it properly, I think it's a pretty poor show from P.V. and they need to fix it ASAP. I won't buy it otherwise, that's for sure.
Posted By: newer player

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/11/18 03:30 PM

That upgrade scheme from Production Voices Compact Grand was rather misleading.

But Jason is a music guy without corporate infrastructure so I will give him some leeway relating to areas outside his core skills, including: marketing, customer service, and finance.

I can understand how some people may be upset but I don't think Jason did this with any bad intentions or malice. This is a minor blunder which could (and probably should) be remedied easily. Regardless, my $20 CGC "investment" gave me a good "feel" for the piano; it is an unexpected sunk cost but I'm not going to hold a grudge there and just move on.

At the end of the day, I find the $99 introductory price for a 16/44.1 piano which I have tested (and quite liked in early beta form) a compelling offer.
Posted By: bsntn99

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/11/18 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by propianist

Re: number 1.
I don't suppose you could elaborate, or walk us through exactly what you did editing the script, or where we find the relevant line entry to edit? Do you mean edit the sfz file in a text editor like notepad?
I'd like to have a little play around with it for myself - out of curiosity.

Yes, I am talking about editing the sfz file in the programs folder. First, back this file up somewhere safe. Then, open in a text editor. I just use wordpad in windows usually. Globally replace lovel=0 with lovel=2. This affects all the lowest velocity samples which I think is the right way to go. Now save the file back. Do not use "save as" since this will change the file format potentially to something other than sfz and cannot then be read. Now, open in Sforzando and test. As always make sure you have a back up of your install package in case things go horribly wrong. If you have problems, PM me so as to not take up too much space here.
Posted By: karvala

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/11/18 03:58 PM

I'm sure you're both aware, but as an alternative in case you don't want to change the instrument files (which is probably the most elegant solution), it is very quick and straightforward (=30 seconds), if you don't mind using an intermediary host such as Savihost, to remap input values below your choice of lowest sounding input velocity (e.g. 3) to an output of 'off', which will have the same effect.
Posted By: TheodorN

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/11/18 05:52 PM

In the strictest sense of the word, the upgrade scheme was indeed misleading, as it implied that customers would get the price of the Compact subtracted when upgrading to the full version.

Then it can be said that the first $20 of the price paid for the Compact, not being subtractable towards the full Concert Grand, is not a big deal, excluding customers buying it for $19 from the additional discount.

That includes myself (in that exclusion!) since I got the Compact at the lowest $19, which was in and of itself a good deal, and I don't regret going for it.

Maybe Jason can say - or meant - that the price for Compact would qualify as discount for the full version, at it's full price.

If we see it that way, Jason has actually delivered more than he promised. Concert Grand LE is discounted $50, and Gold is down $100. I don't see any info on the biggest full version.

Then you can subtract [price paid for Compact - $20] = up to $79 more discount. I hope I don't owe Jason one dollar. cool
Posted By: minstrelman

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/11/18 09:51 PM

just felt like chiming in.
let me first say that I like reading all of what you guys post.
so not meaning anything negative against any of you at all.
ok, that said:
I bought a library from Jason last year.
he was extremely nice.
he went the extra mile and then some to help me.
also, I too bought Concert Grand Compact for $19.
and would not get any discount on upgrading to the newly released full library.
(I could have got 5% off on the first day, but I didn't.)
and thats all I have to say. which I'll repeat.
I think Jason is a super cool, very good guy.
and I'm guessing that I will be buying Concert Grand Gold soon.
Posted By: bsntn99

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/11/18 10:12 PM

Originally Posted by karvala
I'm sure you're both aware, but as an alternative in case you don't want to change the instrument files (which is probably the most elegant solution), it is very quick and straightforward (=30 seconds), if you don't mind using an intermediary host such as Savihost, to remap input values below your choice of lowest sounding input velocity (e.g. 3) to an output of 'off', which will have the same effect.

Unfortunately it's not that easy if you want to have silent key functionality and still have the resonances respond appropriately. You really need to get under the hood and do what I outlined. It only took me a couple of seconds using global replace. Currently the vst treats any velocity as a note on and plays the note. If you set certain velocities to note off with remapping, then the resonances will not respond as the sound engine sees the note as off.

You need the sound engine to see the note as on, but not play the sample. Having the sample only play with a velocity of 2 or higher means with a velocity of 1 (very light touch), the sound engine sees the note as on, so resonances play, but the sample on that key will not play, thus silent key.
Posted By: karvala

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/12/18 12:01 AM

Yeah, that's a good point about the resonances; they wouldn't work with velocity remapped to 'off'. Your method is definitely preferable.
Posted By: Boylan

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/13/18 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by propianist
Hi bsntn99,

1. Cannot depress a key silently, no matter how slowly I move the key.



Changing the preset to Authentic Dynamic or changing the touch response to 100 fixes that, at least on my kit. Don't know if it helps with the resonance issue that's been raised. Maybe you'd still need to change the velocity to 2.

As for the upgrade discussion. I paid $19! At that price I'm not complaining about anything. I did assume that the $19 would go towards an upgrade should I chose that path, but as I don't have Kontakt and won't be buying it - sooner put the money towards a real piano - it would have to be a sforzando upgrade. Add a mic or two to that and I would pay for it.
Posted By: Max_Forte

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/13/18 05:01 PM

I don't understand why everyone here describes "Upgrade" as a separate purchase of a second product. Why not implement a "sacrifice license" of Sforzando based product for a Kontakt based one? In that case, those who paid 19USD will pay 99USD - 19USD = 80USD for "Concert Grand Lite" - for Kontakt and will not be able to use Sforzando product. I think it is a fair upgrade path!

Last year I bought an audio interface and got with it for free two awesome VST plugins: Eventide - Ultrareverb and Eventide - Ultrachannel. During the Eventide spring sale got an offer to upgrade my these products to Eventide "Ultra Essentials" bundle [url=https://www.eventideaudio.com/products/plugins/bundle/ultra-essentials-bundle]Link[/urthe l] for only 49USD which was listed for 99USD ( normal price is 299USD). Nobody said: Hey Max you got your items for free there is NO upgrade for you!!! They think so: "Yes we gave them to Max for free, but now we can get another 49USD and make him feel he is very important customer for us. Who knows, maybe he will buy anything else in the future... " And they were right! Love Eventide very much!

It's all about attitude to your customers, nothing more and nothing less.
Posted By: Boylan

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/13/18 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by Max_Forte


Why not implement a "sacrifice license" of Sforzando based product for a Kontakt based one? In that case, those who paid 19USD will pay 99USD - 19USD = 80USD for "Concert Grand Lite" - for Kontakt and will not be able to use Sforzando product. I think it is a fair upgrade path!



This is how I saw the upgrade. Buy the intro product - in this case the compact version and swap it later for a different version and pay the difference between what you paid for the intro and the cost of the upgraded product.

If you paid $19 like me there's nothing to complain about. But if you paid $99 for the compact version, how much would you now pay for the upgrade? The LE version itself is $99 right now. This pricing structure means it would be free.
Posted By: TheodorN

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/13/18 06:34 PM

This is not how the upgrade scheme works.

Quote
Upgrade from Concert Grand Compact sforzando to any Kontakt version of Concert Grand: We will apply your purchase price towards the cost minus $20. So if you paid $99 for Concert Grand Compact and want to upgrade to Concert Grand LE we will credit you $79 towards Concert Grand. Contact support@productionvoices.com to request upgrade pricing and individual pricing.

From a Production voices email to subscribers.
Posted By: Boylan

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/13/18 06:57 PM

So I paid $19. Minus the $20 means I get -$1 towards Concert grand LE? So LE would costs me $1 more than if I hadn't bought compact in the first place. Cool.

It's only a $ but something tells me this hasn't been well thought out.

I think Compact was a huge bargain at $19. I'm very happy with. Like I said, I'd pay for a couple more mics in sforzando but won't be going the Kontakt route. It would mean a several hundreds of £s upgrading HDs, memory and possibly the processor as well as the cost of Kontakt. I'm just a home user, not a studio or a composer.
Posted By: TheodorN

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/13/18 07:53 PM

I was joking when I said here earlier, that I would owe Jason a dollar if I were to get the Concert Grand, any version with nine microphone pairs. Of course the price won't be raised by a dollar, for those who got the Compact version for $19.

The $20 mark just means that those who got the Compact at $19 won't get any discount, those who got it at $29, will get $9 towards any of the 9 mic versions, at $39 will get you $19, and all the way up to $79, for those who bought Compact at the full price, $99.

I agree with you about the Compact, it is pretty good, and possibly up there with many piano VSTs around the $100 mark.

What you said about being a home user, not a studio or a composer, I think I've raised the attention to this before, that both Production Grand, and the new Steinway Concert Grand, are exactly geared towards the studios, and the professionals.

Just read the Production Voices website, and you'll see that clearly. As for the home user, maybe (s)he is better off with Pianoteq 6? At least those who don't dislike the sound character of the Pianoteq piano models.
Posted By: Boylan

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/13/18 08:57 PM

Originally Posted by TheodorN


The $20 mark just means that those who got the Compact at $19 won't get any discount, those who got it at $29, will get $9 towards any of the 9 mic versions, at $39 will get you $19, and all the way up to $79, for those who bought Compact at the full price, $99.



I was joking too.

Not sure about Pianoteq. What I've heard does sound a bit off, but they all do. None truly sound like a piano to me. They don't have the right attack, bite, or presence or energy or what have you. They have got a lot better true, but they still have a way to go. And much depends on the quality of the playback gear you have.

And I agree with you about the target market being geared more towards the professionals. They may not sound like a real piano or even a good recording of a real piano but in a mix it would be hard to tell and they sure are a lot easier than miking up a piano. Have you seen how much those mics that they use on the Concert Grand cost?

It's he, bye the way.

PS. Just listened to a pianoteq steinway being compared to a real one and it doesn't sound half bad actually. But I'll stick with what I've got for the time being. I mean - $19 vs whatever.
Posted By: TheodorN

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/13/18 09:18 PM

The microphones are surely very expensive, though I don't know the exact prices. Looked up the Neumann M149, outside microphones on Thomann, €4,499 and they're yours.
Posted By: Boylan

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/13/18 09:54 PM

Originally Posted by TheodorN
The microphones are surely very expensive, though I don't know the exact prices. Looked up the Neumann M149, outside microphones on Thomann, €4,499 and they're yours.


I'll take 2 please.
Posted By: TheodorN

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/14/18 12:34 PM

laugh
Posted By: Grazilerimba

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/15/18 01:31 PM

Bought the LE version. Didn't spend too much time with it yet, but here's some first impressions.

The Compact version doesn't provide a good representation of this instrument, to me personally there's no comparison to the LE version. Additionally, I'd say that the Kontakt version feels a lot more "sturdy". I don't like the sforzando sampler too much.

The instrument sounds very beautiful and rich. Playability is solid so far, but the velocity controls are only pretty basic. You can choose between two curve types and then you have a knob for changing that curve. There's no way to add points or something like that. From what I can see, the Production Grand 2 had the same lack of finer velocity controls. I don't like that.

The sound is superb, and the microphones are a joy to experiment with. There's this whole ambisonics thing that I don't fully understand yet. You can do some kind of positional room micing and there's a deluge of settings and presets for it. I tried out some stuff and the sound is very nice. The sheer amount of customization of the sound will make advanced users who might come from the pro audio scene very happy, I'd suppose.

There is one thing that bothers me, and that's a part in the upper registers of about one or two octaves that feels a lot quieter than the rest. This was already present in the Compact version and I notice it here very strongly. It's as if he accidentally used una chorda samples for the notes in the question, that's how significantly different these keys feel to me. I'd like to hear the opinion of other users about this though, because in the past I have viewed such things very differently from other users here.

I did not notice any out of tune notes or anything, and besides this above mentioned range, the rest of the keyboard felt pretty even so far.

I guess in Kontakt you can probably make individual notes louder? Perhaps I can try to fix that segment myself somehow.

If the LE samples already sound so rich I wonder how the bigger samples must sound.

The instrument is fun to play with so far. I'll spend some more time with it and then write some more thoughts.
Posted By: jeremy12

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/16/18 06:40 AM

Originally Posted by Grazilerimba
Bought the LE version. Didn't spend too much time with it yet, but here's some first impressions.

The Compact version doesn't provide a good representation of this instrument, to me personally there's no comparison to the LE version. Additionally, I'd say that the Kontakt version feels a lot more "sturdy". I don't like the sforzando sampler too much.

The instrument sounds very beautiful and rich. Playability is solid so far, but the velocity controls are only pretty basic. You can choose between two curve types and then you have a knob for changing that curve. There's no way to add points or something like that. From what I can see, the Production Grand 2 had the same lack of finer velocity controls. I don't like that.

The sound is superb, and the microphones are a joy to experiment with. There's this whole ambisonics thing that I don't fully understand yet. You can do some kind of positional room micing and there's a deluge of settings and presets for it. I tried out some stuff and the sound is very nice. The sheer amount of customization of the sound will make advanced users who might come from the pro audio scene very happy, I'd suppose.

There is one thing that bothers me, and that's a part in the upper registers of about one or two octaves that feels a lot quieter than the rest. This was already present in the Compact version and I notice it here very strongly. It's as if he accidentally used una chorda samples for the notes in the question, that's how significantly different these keys feel to me. I'd like to hear the opinion of other users about this though, because in the past I have viewed such things very differently from other users here.

I did not notice any out of tune notes or anything, and besides this above mentioned range, the rest of the keyboard felt pretty even so far.

I guess in Kontakt you can probably make individual notes louder? Perhaps I can try to fix that segment myself somehow.

If the LE samples already sound so rich I wonder how the bigger samples must sound.

The instrument is fun to play with so far. I'll spend some more time with it and then write some more thoughts.


How are you finding the playability compared to vsl cfx or garritan cfx? Those have long been my favorite libraries and nothing else I've tried has even come close to the playability that those two libraries give me. Unfortunately, they're both samples based on the cfx and I really want a good steinway library.

I'm thinking about taking the plunge for this library during the promotional pricing period but I've purchased several libraries lately that sounded good in the demos and were not enjoyable to play at all (the latest being the new embertone steinway).
Posted By: RobR

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/16/18 07:13 AM

Originally Posted by jeremy12
How are you finding the playability compared to vsl cfx or garritan cfx? Those have long been my favorite libraries and nothing else I've tried has even come close to the playability that those two libraries give me. Unfortunately, they're both samples based on the cfx and I really want a good steinway library.

I'm thinking about taking the plunge for this library during the promotional pricing period but I've purchased several libraries lately that sounded good in the demos and were not enjoyable to play at all (the latest being the new embertone steinway).


A VSL Steinway is not a far fetched realization since they have one in the Synchron stage. When will they sample it no one knows.
Posted By: karvala

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/16/18 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by jeremy12

How are you finding the playability compared to vsl cfx or garritan cfx? Those have long been my favorite libraries and nothing else I've tried has even come close to the playability that those two libraries give me. Unfortunately, they're both samples based on the cfx and I really want a good steinway library.

I'm thinking about taking the plunge for this library during the promotional pricing period but I've purchased several libraries lately that sounded good in the demos and were not enjoyable to play at all (the latest being the new embertone steinway).


I've just been testing the Concert Grand LE as well. I'll post some review comments when I've played it a bit longer, but I can answer this easily now: playability is, in my view, substantially lower than those two, which both remain top of the playability list for me as well, by some margin. I agree it would be great to have a Steinway sound with the same quality and playability as the CFX instruments, but this definitely isn't it. I'm also hopeful that VSL will sample their Steinway (which is a far superior acoustic instrument to the one used here as well), which could be very interesting.
Posted By: Max_Forte

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/16/18 04:54 PM

I find its playability great but I don't have CFXs, so can't compare them. Feeling under the fingers reminds me of Pianoteq. Sure in these terms Pianoteq is The King and is VERY FAR away from ANY SAMPLED piano, but it's easy to jump from Pianoteq to the Concert Grand during playing without any adaptation. Can't say anything about half-pedaling as my single pedal is an "ON-OFF" switch.

Beautiful rich sound. Much better than on demos.
Posted By: Grazilerimba

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/16/18 06:52 PM

@jeremy12, I'd say the playability so far feels very solid, but I'd agree with karvala that it is below the Garritan CFX in that regard. I'd say though that it isn't too far off. The bad thing really is the lack of velocity options (pretty poor for a piano library in 2018) as well as that range in the upper registers that feels very quiet. Although, the VSL CFX has even less options with a cryptic 'midi sensitivity' slider that doesn't allow any customization at all. Even poorer for 2018.

To the others who have bought this, would you agree about that range of keys in the upper registers that feels quieter than the rest? As I said it feels like he accidentally used una corda samples, that's how big the difference to the rest of the keyboard is to me.

This is not to take away anything from the fantastic sound of this, though. As I wrote above, the microphone options are really good. If you know your stuff in the pro audio world you'll love this.
Posted By: Max_Forte

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/16/18 08:43 PM

Not sure on "Quite keys" I hear some differences in velocity: it's not just loudness but also a "color" of a tone.

But I have to say that Production Voices have to do some improvements and fixes on Kontakt script part of the instrument. There are many little issues that can upset your impressions of this really beautiful piano.

First flaw: It takes 28 - 45 seconds to fully load instrument (standalone). My system's specs are below.

How can I change the state of presets? I hate that when you choose a preset from the drop-down menu all mics are "ON"! Even those that are muted!
And it takes 3.2GB of RAM. It's not an issue with resources. I'm on Core i7 6700K + 16GB RAM, but it took too long to load samples! I have Kontakt installed on Samsung 850 Pro SSD which is used as a system drive, and samples on dedicated for VSTis Samsung 850 EVO SSD, so I can expect almost instant loading, but no...



[Linked Image]

The second screenshot shows switched off unused microphones and decreased RAM appetite


[Linked Image]



And don't be fooled by reverb field in the upper-right corner: If it shows something besides "BYPASS" it's not mean reverb is audible or switched on.
As you can see on the third screenshot you have to enter "Mixer" tab to turn "ON" the reverb!

[Linked Image]


You might think: Now reverb is really working! But not so fast! It's too easy for us, computer geeks, to be so.

What? You are not a geek... Unbelievable! But you had to go to the "Master FX" tab and add an amount to master send slider.

[Linked Image]



Just facepalm.


PV, please fix all errors and release an update.

Above all: I didn't expect such a brilliant quality of the Concert Grand. I like it very much! Superb sounding instrument.
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/16/18 09:00 PM

I don't have this piano, but when I load a multi it contains six pianos. The total load is 1.1 GB and it loads in seconds ... maybe ten seconds or so.

So ... if I were loading 3.2 GB then I, too, would likely see 28 - 45 second load times.
Ya wants da big sounds, ya gots ta loads da big RAM.

You could go into the Kontakt settings and reduce the per-sample load size. I think the default is 60 kB per sample.
Maybe if this were instead set to 30 kB the load time would drop in half?
It would then remain to be seen whether you'd suffer latency-related dropouts due to the reduced buffer size.

It's worth a try.
Posted By: RobR

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/16/18 09:20 PM

Originally Posted by Max_Forte
Not sure on "Quite keys" I hear some differences in velocity: it's not just loudness but also a "color" of a tone.

But I have to say that Production Voices have to do some improvements and fixes on Kontakt script part of the instrument. There are many little issues that can upset your impressions of this really beautiful piano.

First flaw: It takes 28 - 45 seconds to fully load instrument (standalone). My system's specs are below.

How can I change the state of presets? I hate that when you choose a preset from the drop-down menu all mics are "ON"! Even those that are muted!
And it takes 3.2GB of RAM. It's not an issue with resources. I'm on Core i7 6700K + 16GB RAM, but it took too long to load samples! I have Kontakt installed on Samsung 850 Pro SSD which is used as a system drive, and samples on dedicated for VSTis Samsung 850 EVO SSD, so I can expect almost instant loading, but no...



[Linked Image]

The second screenshot shows switched off unused microphones and decreased RAM appetite


[Linked Image]



And don't be fooled by reverb field in the upper-right corner: If it shows something besides "BYPASS" it's not mean reverb is audible or switched on.
As you can see on the third screenshot you have to enter "Mixer" tab to turn "ON" the reverb!

[Linked Image]


You might think: Now reverb is really working! But not so fast! It's too easy for us, computer geeks, to be so.

What? You are not a geek... Unbelievable! But you had to go to the "Master FX" tab and add an amount to master send slider.

[Linked Image]



Just facepalm.


PV, please fix all errors and release an update.

Above all: I didn't expect such a brilliant quality of the Concert Grand. I like it very much! Superb sounding instrument.

Batch re-save, it will load faster.
Posted By: Max_Forte

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/16/18 09:43 PM

Thanks, tdwctdwc,
"Batch Re-Save" helped. Now loading takes 7 Seconds.

I did "Batch Re-Save" two times after copying into the installation folder as had to point the samples folder. Didn't think doing it from time to time is possible without any "Harm".
Posted By: karvala

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/16/18 10:10 PM

Yes, there is undoubtedly a major problem with the amplitude of keys in the upper register; when you get more than an octave or so above C4, it is a lot quieter. I don't think it's mistaken una corda samples (though I know what you mean), I think it's a problem with the acoustic instrument itself. I don't know what instrument he sampled for this, nor how old it is, but it does not give a good account of itself. Apart from that very tired sounding upper range, there are notable timbre changes from note to the next, some further local amplitude differences, and some outright faults (e.g. play A1 with reasonable velocity, and enjoy the fog horn sound!). There are also numerous minor tuning problems (play a few octaves or fifths and listen through to the uncomfortable harmonics). All of suggests an older and not very well maintained instrument. I'm sure PV would beg to differ, but that's clearly what it sounds like.

In terms of playability: certainly the lack of the velocity curve options doesn't help, although as Grazlilerimba points out, the VSL CFX is arguably even worse in that regard. To me, though, playability is a measure of the level of nuance, of subtly, of variety, that can be achieved; it's tested by playing pieces that require very quiet, very carefully balanced sounds and ideally a variety of timbres. Both CFX instruments do this exceptionally well, largely because they are very evenly sampled, carefully processed, with integrated ambient sounds, wide dynamic range and a large number of sample layers (which turns out to be quite useful after all). By contrast, I find playability in this instrument is middling at best, because the attack is much too sharp even at low velocities, the tone too strident and the amplitude and timbre much too uneven to allow finely-nuanced control. For loud or busy music, this instrument would be fine; in fact, I think it would make quite a good pop piano. For classical, though, it's just too rough and in-your-face for my taste.

While I'm here, some further review comments. Download and installation was mixed: their server supports good download speeds, which is much to their credit, so it was downloaded in about three hours on my connection. On the other the other hand, the Connect software is awful, managing to randomly crash three times during the download, requiring attention each time. I was surprised by the total absence of installation instructions as well; it's fine for most of us here who are familiar with Kontakt and VSTis more generally, but a novice would likely be lost. And why no NI code so that it can be properly integrated into Kontakt? Other third-party piano libraries (CinePiano, Galaxy Vintage D etc.) manage it just fine.

The microphone options are good, though honestly, not quite as varied in sound as I was hoping; substantially less varied than the VSL CFX microphones, for example, although more varied than those in the TrueKeys pianos. The range of sound customisation options is good as well - including convolution and algorithmic builtin reverb, multi-band EQ, and most unusually, transient editing. Continuous and authentic pedal support is great to have, and the Ambisonics virtual speaker facility is a fantastic idea; it brings some Pianoteq-like features to a sampled instrument.

Unfortunately, though, a lot of it doesn't actually work as expected. The authentic pedal seems to be broken for me (anyone else tried it?), having a very strange effect on the sounds. Similarly, the Ambisonics options are less user-friendly than they could be, but more fundamentally also broken and creating very strange sounds. I hope both of those will be fixed in due course. The user interface also has some very strange behaviour; for example, selecting a convolution reverb setting on the Main page at the moment wipes out all of the other settings, so that all mics are turned off, all speakers are panned left, all volumes are minimised etc.. Some settings are present on multiple pages, but the settings are not always or reliably carried across from one page to another. Basically, it's clunky and buggy. It's usable, but it's a lot harder work than it needs to be.

Final comment: I've talked before about 'house styles' in virtual pianos, with particular brands have a particular approach to sampling, audio processing, scripting. This instrument is a further example of that; it is much close to the Production Grand (a Yamaha C7) in terms of sound, style, options, playability etc., then it is to Steinway Ds from other brands (e.g. The Grandeur, Galaxy Vintage D, TrueKeys American Grand, Ivory ACD etc.). That's not to say it doesn't sound like a Steinway - it just about does. Ultimately, if you like the Production Grand, you'll probably like this. If you don't like the Production Grand, you probably won't like this either.
Posted By: Grazilerimba

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/16/18 11:03 PM

Thank you Max Forte and karvala, great reviews. Yes I forgot to mention that I had similar bugs. Choosing a preset loads all mics at once even though only one or a few of them are active in the preset. I wonder why he decided to do it that way. Selecting Authentic Pedal also leads to a very strange sound for me, have to turn it off. Selecting a reverb from the main page leads to the same problems that karvala describes - all settings are set to zero, all microphone sliders are pulled all the way down, and when I try to pull them up, I can only hear sound on one side of the headphones. Have to restart Kontakt after that. My downloader also crashed multiple times. I think the software he uses is an open beta program? Gonna check out that note that you mentioned, reminds me of the Estate Grand which had similar issues (like chirping birds and loud thumping sounds if I remember correctly?). For what it's worth, the Embertone Walker also had at least one note that has a clearly audible snap or thud in a high velocity.

It really seems to be hard to deal with such a huge amount of samples. tens of thousands of sound files. You'd go crazy if you didn't do some form of batch processing, and perhaps you won't actually listen to every single sound for its entire duration. So I can understand that this happens, but it sucks of course, because once the recording is over, the sounds are there, end of story. Didn't someone tell me here that the Garritan CFX had to abandon one full note because of such an issue?

Glad that I am not the only one who has an issue with the upper part. It also seemed to me that this must have been because of the sampled instrument. I wonder if it is possible to raise the volume of the affected notes in Kontakt somehow. It seems to me that this sudden shift in timbre and volume is much bigger than in comparable situations in other piano VSTs.

Anyway, looks like the developer has some fixing to do. I feel sad that it went this way, because I really want him to succeed. he is visibly very passionate about this. and considering that he did all this by himself (that's correct, isn't it?), it is such an impressive accomplishment nevertheless.

I agree about the dynamic range of the VSL CFX. I ended up not using that on a regular basis, but whenever I return to it, the dynamic range is always the one thing that impresses me the most about it. Similar to the Vienna Imperial, that is a significant step up in liveliness, even better than the Garritan CFX in that respect. But I still prefer the latter because of its evenness and because the room ambience sounds more enjoyable than the Synchron Stage. A Synchron Steinway seems to be only a matter or time (it must certainly be called Synchron PianoS for a reason?), let's see what they bring to the table. I must admit that I despise their DRM/dongle policy so a part of me wishes that they don't release a good product (sorry) and also I tend to cut them a significantly lower amount of slack when it comes to flaws in their pianos. If you treat your customers like criminals then you better deliver a flawless top tier product. It is so interesting though, there's so many Steinways out there but not a single one that has reached the perfection of Garritan's CFX. This is why I would personally really like to see Garritan do another Steinway. They also have a respectable DRM policy.
Posted By: angmyu

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/16/18 11:22 PM

Originally Posted by karvala
The authentic pedal seems to be broken for me (anyone else tried it?), having a very strange effect on the sounds. Similarly, the Ambisonics options are less user-friendly than they could be, but more fundamentally also broken and creating very strange sounds. I hope both of those will be fixed in due course. The user interface also has some very strange behaviour; for example, selecting a convolution reverb setting on the Main page at the moment wipes out all of the other settings, so that all mics are turned off, all speakers are panned left, all volumes are minimised etc.. Some settings are present on multiple pages, but the settings are not always or reliably carried across from one page to another. Basically, it's clunky and buggy. It's usable, but it's a lot harder work than it needs to be.


Isn't that a problem that existed in Production Grand 2? I know Jason is a very passionate, sincere and capable man, but I wonder why he released without fixing all those errors.
Posted By: karvala

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/16/18 11:46 PM

Originally Posted by Grazilerimba
I agree about the dynamic range of the VSL CFX. I ended up not using that on a regular basis, but whenever I return to it, the dynamic range is always the one thing that impresses me the most about it. Similar to the Vienna Imperial, that is a significant step up in liveliness, even better than the Garritan CFX in that respect. But I still prefer the latter because of its evenness and because the room ambience sounds more enjoyable than the Synchron Stage. A Synchron Steinway seems to be only a matter or time (it must certainly be called Synchron PianoS for a reason?), let's see what they bring to the table. I must admit that I despise their DRM/dongle policy so a part of me wishes that they don't release a good product (sorry) and also I tend to cut them a significantly lower amount of slack when it comes to flaws in their pianos. If you treat your customers like criminals then you better deliver a flawless top tier product. It is so interesting though, there's so many Steinways out there but not a single one that has reached the perfection of Garritan's CFX. This is why I would personally really like to see Garritan do another Steinway. They also have a respectable DRM policy.


I'm undecided between VSL and Garritan for the CFX crown at the moment. I have great respect for the Garritan CFX for a number of reasons that I've gone into elsewhere, and it's undoubtedly the least flawed piano VSTi out there. The VSL CFX, though, has the edge on sound to me; it feels closer to playing and hearing an acoustic CFX, and that's quite compelling. The sound customisation options are also very good with those ten microphones and per-note editing. Ah, well, two great CFXs; what's not to like? I share your view on their DRM/dongle policy; I understand their argument but I don't think you should treat your customers as potential criminals. I don't understand why they don't allow an alternative internet licencing - which is supported by Steinberg in conjunction with the e-licencer dongle - and then there wouldn't be a problem. On the other hand, I have been impressed with their level of engagement in fixing problems with the instrument and releasing improvement; for example, I asked for a release sample control and sure enough they added one, asked me to beta test it and set parameters for it, and then put it in their public release. How many other developers would do that?

Would be nice to see a Steinway from either/both of those companies. I wouldn't be quite so optimistic about the Garritan one, though; their other piano libraries have been nothing special. I think the reason the CFX was so much better was that the Abbey Road team, who were very familiar with the space and instrument, were heavily involved in the sampling. You could say the same for the VSL CFX as well, but in their case that same team would also be doing their Steinway, so I'd be a bit more optimistic. There's a lesson for developers: don't go into an unfamiliar space with an unfamiliar instrument and expect to be able to sample it convincingly. Take advantage of existing recording studios with fine instruments and use the studio staff in the sampling.
Posted By: Max_Forte

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/17/18 12:07 AM

I'm ok with the imperfection of some notes: It's like playing a live instrument. But I agree that first of all, they should choose a piano which is in excellent condition. It's strange to say such obvious things but In sampled piano VSTi, a piano itself and its condition is the essential factor!

Don't forget that we are kind of beta testers now. Now is time for PV to gather all feedbacks and take the measures.

It was the last time I purchased a Kontakt piano that wasn't created for the free Kontakt Player. As I said them it's not only about Kontakt license but first of all ease of activation, adding a library and using the normal "Library view". Many of PW users have a Kontakt or the Komplete.
There is a feeling that developers not offering "Kontakt Player" functionality act like amateurs. I don't know how much it costs but some not very big companies as Wavesfactoty, Embertone etc offer their products for a "Kontakt Player" and NKS support.

+1 for a new Steinway from Garritan.
+1000 Hate VSL's USB dongle policy which is even worse than the iLOK! Just think that if you lose your E-Licenser or it is stolen they will not restore your license! Ilok in comparison is much kinder and allow you to contact the vendor to ask for a free license replacement if you are not subscribed to "Zero downtime"!

iLOK, please forgive me all my negative words I expressed in your address! smile
Posted By: toddy

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/17/18 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by Max_Forte
iLOK, please forgive me all my negative words I expressed


Contrary to the mass fury found online for iLok, my experience with iLok (bought for EWQL instruments but now also running some other VSTs) has been good. It's one of the neatest licencing systems, allowing you to instantly license and enable any computer and keep a record of all your licenses online and in your computer.

Why do people hate it so much?
Posted By: pianistje

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/17/18 11:33 AM

Wow, so many different opinions and taste.
I think i'll pass this time after purchasing the Full Embertone and CinePiano..... both Steinway D's..
I like them both very much and as a result i deleted a few libraries (Hammersmith pro and Ravenscroft ) that i really didn't like.

Recently i am less and less pleased with the Garritan CFX ...... it still plays like a dream, but the sample fatigue has hit me hard with this one after a couple of years.
There's some sterile coldness in the sound i am hearing more and more lately....
It is even more appearent in the VSL CFX...... i don't own the latter but i heard quite a few demo's that surprised me a lot........ such a cold tone...

Yesterday i went to a shop who revised an eighties Yamaha C6 from my local theatre.
The craftsmen were all top Yamaha specialised and one of a kind and everything was new, from the strings, tuning pins, hammerheads and bridge pins etc.
The C6 was like new and extensive intonation made it sound and playable in the very best way possible.
Warm, clear and distinct.......
Nothing like the many mediocre C7's i personally know.....
Since i never layed my hands on the CFX myself, i asked the owner of this Yamaha working place and he told me he had tuned lots of them the last years during festivals.
Some were great, but others not so.....he chose his words carefully not to make any mistake...
To me the Synchron CFX sounds like i lesser piano, althaugh i only base this on the demo's....

In fact i think the CFX isn't my dream grand piano sound after all..... i am more and more falling in love again with Steinway.
If i didn't have the Embertone and CinePiano i surely would consider the PV concert grand.

For all the recent owners,...... enjoy your purchase to the max !
Posted By: slobajudge

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/17/18 06:34 PM

I agree with you Pianistje, I will also pass PV after I have Embertone. I dont like PV C7 and his Steinway reminds me too much of it. I have Garritan cfx and also VSL cfx and your observation is good, vsl cfx have very cold tone, and from the first day I don`t like his top notes. Now I even consider to sell it despite they are both very playable and good libraries. Sound wise no match for Embertone. Of course, let recent owners of PV Steinway to enjoy.
Posted By: pianistje

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/17/18 08:23 PM

Originally Posted by slobajudge
I agree with you Pianistje, I will also pass PV after I have Embertone. I dont like PV C7 and his Steinway reminds me too much of it. I have Garritan cfx and also VSL cfx and your observation is good, vsl cfx have very cold tone, and from the first day I don`t like his top notes. Now I even consider to sell it despite they are both very playable and good libraries. Sound wise no match for Embertone. Of course, let recent owners of PV Steinway to enjoy.

Ah thanks !!
Always good to keep some money in the pocket for the time being......and i value your opinion because i don’t know anyone who has so many piano libraries (with hands on experience) to compare..... grin
Posted By: slobajudge

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/17/18 08:49 PM

Originally Posted by pianistje
Originally Posted by slobajudge
I agree with you Pianistje, I will also pass PV after I have Embertone. I dont like PV C7 and his Steinway reminds me too much of it. I have Garritan cfx and also VSL cfx and your observation is good, vsl cfx have very cold tone, and from the first day I don`t like his top notes. Now I even consider to sell it despite they are both very playable and good libraries. Sound wise no match for Embertone. Of course, let recent owners of PV Steinway to enjoy.

Ah thanks !!
Always good to keep some money in the pocket for the time being......and i value your opinion because i don’t know anyone who has so many piano libraries (with hands on experience) to compare..... grin

Thank you, I will do my best to give some advice about piano libraries respecting the fact that people are very different about sound they hear. Anyway this is the first time I don`t have a G.A.S about new PV Steinway and thats good. I need that update for Emberton and I am set for a long time I hope smile
Posted By: karvala

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/17/18 09:42 PM

Originally Posted by angmyu
Originally Posted by karvala
The authentic pedal seems to be broken for me (anyone else tried it?), having a very strange effect on the sounds. Similarly, the Ambisonics options are less user-friendly than they could be, but more fundamentally also broken and creating very strange sounds. I hope both of those will be fixed in due course. The user interface also has some very strange behaviour; for example, selecting a convolution reverb setting on the Main page at the moment wipes out all of the other settings, so that all mics are turned off, all speakers are panned left, all volumes are minimised etc.. Some settings are present on multiple pages, but the settings are not always or reliably carried across from one page to another. Basically, it's clunky and buggy. It's usable, but it's a lot harder work than it needs to be.


Isn't that a problem that existed in Production Grand 2? I know Jason is a very passionate, sincere and capable man, but I wonder why he released without fixing all those errors.


Sorry, missed this yesterday. Yes, I believe you're correct. I'm not sure I entirely understand his approach either; he does leave some bugs permanently unfixed while moving on to new products, which is not good. It's also clear that the Concert Grand LE has not been through even the most basic beta testing worth the name, because the numerous issues that we have all identified would have been spotted immediately by an beta tester. I understand it's a very complex product to develop, but some basic beta testing is a necessity. It's quite disrespectful towards paying customers to release it in this state.
Posted By: Max_Forte

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/17/18 10:18 PM

Can somebody confirm, please, that "Batch-Resave" solves velocity-loudness issues appeared on some keys? Or what I hear is the placebo effect, and I'm happy to be deceived? smile

Posted By: newer player

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/17/18 11:02 PM

Thanks for the detailed comments karvala, Max_Forte, Grazilerimba, etal.

Originally Posted by karvala
for example, selecting a convolution reverb setting on the Main page at the moment wipes out all of the other settings, so that all mics are turned off, all speakers are panned left


There was a December 2017 YouTube video on PVCG that was hard-panned left. That, and a handful of other comments noted in this thread would have been a good checklist for the developers. . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-HdGOwS-1U
Posted By: RobR

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/17/18 11:25 PM

Originally Posted by Max_Forte
Can somebody confirm, please, that "Batch-Resave" solves velocity-loudness issues appeared on some keys? Or what I hear is the placebo effect, and I'm happy to be deceived? smile


Don't take my word for it, but i often see developers suggesting the batch-resave to fix various "fresh installation" passive bugs that usually go away after the procedure is done. But i know for a fact that batch-resave DOES speed up loading times dramatically that's for sure.
Posted By: Max_Forte

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/17/18 11:29 PM

Oh, that totally useless "Ambisonic" mic... frown 15GB of a total 70GB is that "Ambisonic" mic. I'd be glad to delete it but what if that will cause problems...
Posted By: Max_Forte

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/17/18 11:43 PM

This is how samples are organized:






[Linked Image]
Posted By: bsntn99

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/18/18 01:52 AM

Out of curiosity for those that also have the Concert Grand Compact, do you notice the same weaker upper registers in CGC vs. CG LE? This would be the outside mic (M149s) in the CG LE for the comparison. This might indicate whether it is in the samples or just the Kontakt programming.

Jason mentions "sampled from a New York built Steinway D with a model number starting with 589 ***. A little more info from the manual that may explain some of the artifacts:

"Concert Grand is sampled from a Steinway D that just came off tour with a famous Canadian artist (his initials are B.A. for those guessing). The piano was in great shape, but was used enough to have a character of its own. This piano had some mechanical noises from the hammer mechanism that were louder than the Yamaha C7 that I am used to. My guess is that the longer strings and quick action required a little more effort from the mechanism."

Also, note on page 20, there are some additional adjustments under the hood available in the edit mode.

Posted By: karvala

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/18/18 12:19 PM

Yes, the same weaker upper registers. It's definitely in the samples, and across all different mics. The piano details are very informative and explain why the piano is so bright in the middle registers (I'm guessing it will have been prepared that way for a rock tour, and then used in that range extensively) and so weak in the upper registers (hammers not yet cut in through lack of use). I'm not so sure about "in great shape"; the lower registers sound like they've taken a bit of a beating.
Posted By: bsntn99

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/18/18 03:18 PM

Thanks for confirming the same issue exists in Concert Grand Compact. In the sfz spec used for Sforzando, you can apply adjustments to each sample or sample group. This is partly why Garritan CFX, which is essentially an sfz, sounds as even as it does. Not sure if this is possible at a sample level in Kontakt. I know it is possible at a group level.

I did also note based on CGC some buzziness with a few notes in the upper range and some unison tuning problems. Probably saw a lot of use on the road and was definitely set up to cut through rather than for a classical or more balanced performance - a missed opportunity. I may have dodged a bullet on this one. Forgot to mention, the piano is said by Jason to be 2010 or newer, so most likely not cut in as you mentioned.
Posted By: Max_Forte

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/19/18 12:31 AM

When I was interested in Concert Grand I found that demos presented by Production Voices weren't very informative.
I decided to share the demo with all who are looking for an additional info.

Link to rendered midi file played by Su Yeon Kim downloaded from E-piano competition:

FLAC on Dropbox

No over effects added but little of a built-in reverb. Custom preset used. It so easy to dial sound you are looking for, but at least 4 mic positions are completely useless to me.

If you have any specific MIDI file you think can be very helpful to assess the sound quality of CG I can render it and post here.

Concert Grand sounds really great and natural!
Posted By: wolfgangmeister

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/19/18 02:57 AM

Hi Max,

I'd be interested to hear two of my MIDI recordings rendered to assess the sound quality of PV's Steinway D Concert Grand VI. One is a lyrical recording of the Gluck-Sgambati Melody I recently posted on PianoWorld to assess PianoTeq v6.2.2 and the latest Steingraeber E-272 VI vs. four other PianoTeq VIs; the other is a more virtuostic recording of Liszt's "Orage" (from 'Annees de Pelerinage') that really tests the power, sustain and polyphony of any VI.

Gluck & Liszt MIDIs in Dropbox

P.S. I would also be interested to compare this to the new Full version of Embertone's Walker Steinway D VI, Garritan CFX Concert Grand Full, or Synthogy Ivory II American Concert D, if anyone is so inclined. Playability of both pieces using PianoTeq v6.2.2 with a fast Multi-Core PC & SSD via a real acoustic keyboard is outstanding.
P.S.S. Here's a reference YouTube link comparing the various PianoTeq VI's:

Gluck-Sgambati: Melody in Dm - PianoTeq Demo
Posted By: Aves

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/19/18 12:38 PM

wolfgangmeister, I rendered your MIDI files in both the Embertone Steinway D and the Garritan CFX.

https://soundcloud.com/thebirds/sets/embertone-steinway-vs-garritan-cfx

For the Embertone, I made different combinations of all the mic's together with the main mic.
For the CFX, I used both the default settings (with re-pedaling enabled) and my edited version with a bit more 'body' to the sound (some extra saturation, more ambience, more dynamic range).

I will not discuss my preferences and remarks, first I'm curious what you all think. smile
Please vote for your favorite instrument + version.
Posted By: Max_Forte

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/19/18 01:35 PM

Thanks, Aves

Here is Production Voices - Concert Grand - Gluck-Sgambati: Melody in Dm
Posted By: Max_Forte

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/19/18 01:58 PM

Thank you wolfgangmeister for your Pianoteq demos.
So many nuances in sound, resonances, overtones etc that make it breathing...

Couldn't resist and just upgraded Pianoteq Stage to Standard.
Posted By: slobajudge

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/19/18 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by Aves
wolfgangmeister, I rendered your MIDI files in both the Embertone Steinway D and the Garritan CFX.

https://soundcloud.com/thebirds/sets/embertone-steinway-vs-garritan-cfx

For the Embertone, I made different combinations of all the mic's together with the main mic.
For the CFX, I used both the default settings (with re-pedaling enabled) and my edited version with a bit more 'body' to the sound (some extra saturation, more ambience, more dynamic range).

I will not discuss my preferences and remarks, first I'm curious what you all think. smile
Please vote for your favorite instrument + version.

Thank you for uploading this, Embertone all the way for me.
Posted By: Grazilerimba

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/19/18 04:11 PM

Thank you for those recordings, they indeed sound very beautiful. I would have expected to be disappointed by the CFX sound but it turns out I actually enjoy those recordings quite a bit. As some other commenters said, I, too, have become a bit disappointed in the Garritan CFX lately - it feels pretty cold and lifeless to me after spending some time with a couple of Steinways. That's why I was surprised to see that the classical recordings could still convince me. Even though the Embertone recordings did have a very beautiful and sweet tone to them. I still can't get past the Embertone's flaws though. The notes that stand out and the pretty bad performance still make it unusable to me. I'm hoping that their update will bring some improvements.

As for the Ambisonics mic in the Concert Grand, I don't know why you'd call it useless. To me it's one of the most powerful features. Even as a layman I was able to get some pretty convincing sounds out of merely using the presets. Imagine if someone knew what they're doing, they could shape the sound in ways unimaginable in the piano VST world up to this point. I can understand the frustration about the things that don't work or that need improvement - at the same time, I'd say let's not downplay the good things that this VST actually does have going for itself.
Posted By: pianistje

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/19/18 05:17 PM

Thanks for the recordings !!
I like the Embertone (much) more than the Garritan, but that has more to do with me and my current feelings towards the CFX right now.....

I’m bit puzzled though that some consider the Embertone a sort of ‘unusable’ in it’s current state.
I’m looking forward to updates but in the mean time i’m enjoying it a lot.

.
Posted By: Max_Forte

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/19/18 05:27 PM

I think compared to Garritan CFX and Embertone Walker D, PV - Concert Grand really shines here:

Jason Solomonides - Liszt - Orage - Production Voices - Concert Grand

To me hands-down winner.
Posted By: Grazilerimba

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/19/18 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by pianistje

I’m bit puzzled though that some consider the Embertone a sort of ‘unusable’ in it’s current state.
I’m looking forward to updates but in the mean time i’m enjoying it a lot.


Yeah I talked about that in the Embertone thread. Some notes are sticking out really badly, and at least one is additionally out of tune. Repedal is advertised as a key feature but is completely missing. There is noise in at least one sample. Additionally I couldn't find a way to make it work without constantly getting clicks and missing notes. Only piano VST that gave me so many performance issues like this was the Bechstein Digital which has insane requirements if you want to crank up all the features. But I am well above the requirements of the Embertone so I shouldn't have any problems. I really want to like this piano because I have come to love its sound, but I just can't enjoy playing it like this. I think I could 'fix' the performance issues with a new PC, but the samples are the way they are and probably won't be fixed. There's enough people who don't mind these issues but to me personally I can't get over them.
Posted By: Max_Forte

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/19/18 05:53 PM

The same piece rendered with IMO The Best Yamaha C7 VSTi on the market today - Production Voices - Production Grand 2

Jason Solomonides - Liszt - Orage - Production Voices - Production Grand 2
Posted By: wolfgangmeister

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/20/18 03:47 AM

Originally Posted by Max_Forte
Thank you wolfgangmeister for your Pianoteq demos.
So many nuances in sound, resonances, overtones etc that make it breathing...
Couldn't resist and just upgraded Pianoteq Stage to Standard.

Thank you Max! I also couldn't resist and upgraded from PianoTeq Stage to Standard. Let me just say that the new Steingraeber & Sohne E-272 Modeled VSTi is one of my personal favorites to play of any sampled or hybrid sampled/model VSTi; and I agree with you that the Standard version's ability to "tweak the sound and move the microphone positions" allows one to really compare it to the latest top of the line sampled instruments.

Note: The advantage for this particular PianoTeq VSTi is that I recorded the Gluck-Sgambati on the E-272 - using a specific velocity "touch response" preset that was developed to best match the advanced WNG carbon-fiber / nylon composite action on my Mason & Hamlin BB acoustic instrument. This was actually the first time I ever "muted" the action for a MIDI recording made by my acoustic using ProRecord - i.e. I used the QuietTime Mute Rail to stop the hammers just shy from striking the strings... so the feedback I was hearing was of the virtual Steingraeber instrument as I recorded the piece. Usually I play the acoustic and the MIDI recording is produced as a result of this dual acoustic performance. I feel the recording came out MUCH better using the virtual Steingraeber.

Originally Posted by slobajudge
Originally Posted by Aves
wolfgangmeister, I rendered your MIDI files in both the Embertone Steinway D and the Garritan CFX.

https://soundcloud.com/thebirds/sets/embertone-steinway-vs-garritan-cfx

For the Embertone, I made different combinations of all the mic's together with the main mic.
For the CFX, I used both the default settings (with re-pedaling enabled) and my edited version with a bit more 'body' to the sound (some extra saturation, more ambience, more dynamic range).

I will not discuss my preferences and remarks, first I'm curious what you all think. smile
Please vote for your favorite instrument + version.

Thank you for uploading this, Embertone all the way for me.

I also want to thank you Aves for all of your hard work of creating these comparisons!

I agree with slobajudge relative to the Embertone's ability to reproduce the Gluck-Sgambati. Really beautiful tones out of this instrument as compared to Production Voices Concert Grand LE and Garrison CFX Full or even PianoTeq Steinway D. It is a very close second for me to the Steingraeber E-272, and that may have been due to the inexact mapping of the velocity touch response, relative to the original recording. This actually may be the biggest problem I heard with the PV "Steinway D" Concert Grand recording... the touch response seems to be off a bit as the piece crescendos... The Garritan CFX Full was my third favorite and this also surprised me as it was warmer and had more character than I expected from hearing some of the demos.

Originally Posted by pianistje
Thanks for the recordings !!
I like the Embertone (much) more than the Garritan, but that has more to do with me and my current feelings towards the CFX right now.....

I’m bit puzzled though that some consider the Embertone a sort of ‘unusable’ in it’s current state.
I’m looking forward to updates but in the mean time i’m enjoying it a lot.
.

Thank you pianistje! I definitely agree with you on the Gluck-Sgambati relative to the Embertone tone, BUT, I think the Liszt Orage reveals some of the Embertone's current "playability" deficiencies... without me even playing it... especially with the repedaling and half-pedaling... somehow it is just not right. Notes in the bass are being cut off abruptly, and this does not happen with Garrison CFX, PV Concert Grand LE or with any of the PianoTeq VSTi options. It also doesn't happen when I play it back on my M&H BB Acoustic via PianoDisc SilentDrive HD either!

Originally Posted by Grazilerimba
Thank you for those recordings, they indeed sound very beautiful. I would have expected to be disappointed by the CFX sound but it turns out I actually enjoy those recordings quite a bit. As some other commenters said, I, too, have become a bit disappointed in the Garritan CFX lately - it feels pretty cold and lifeless to me after spending some time with a couple of Steinways. That's why I was surprised to see that the classical recordings could still convince me. Even though the Embertone recordings did have a very beautiful and sweet tone to them. I still can't get past the Embertone's flaws though. The notes that stand out and the pretty bad performance still make it unusable to me. I'm hoping that their update will bring some improvements.

Thank you Grazilerimba! Relative to your thoughts on touch response (see alternate PianoWorld thread)...
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...h-one-vst-using-another.html#Post2759649
... you are absolutely right on the money, and I experienced this when I made the Gluck-Sgambati recording. If one could have create equivalent touch responses (using a standard VSTi interface), using a standard MIDI file might be a more effective method of comparing VSTIs.
Relative to your thoughts on the Embertone, agree relative to the sweet tone and (see above) the Embertone's playability flaws are very evident to me in the Liszt Orage, especially with the pedaling (listen at 10 sec, 17 sec, 18 sec, and 21 sec).

Originally Posted by Max_Forte
The same piece rendered with IMO The Best Yamaha C7 VSTi on the market today - Production Voices - Production Grand 2

Jason Solomonides - Liszt - Orage - Production Voices - Production Grand 2

Originally Posted by Max_Forte
I think compared to Garritan CFX and Embertone Walker D, PV - Concert Grand really shines here:

Jason Solomonides - Liszt - Orage - Production Voices - Concert Grand

To me hands-down winner.

Thank you Max for posting both of these Liszt recordings on the PV Concert and Production Grands... and once gain to Aves for posting the many Garritan CFX and Embertone Walker D perspectives!

In short, the recordings demonstrate a sense of the power of the Production Voices instruments, and playability of the Garritan... I liked both better than the Embertone Walker Steinway D due to the known re-pedaling shortfall.... BUT... although they sound phenomenal at the posted speeds, I think I recorded them at a TEMPO 25% and 15% slower, respectively, than what got posted here for both Production Voice VSTis and the Garritan/Embertone recordings! The MIDI file I shared should have taken 5:15.8 (or 315.8 sec) to complete. I believe I would be dead right now if I tried to match the phenomenal increased PV 25% lightning pace... or perhaps at the Garritan/Embertone 15% faster pace I feel like the undiscovered protege of the late Vladimir Horowitz! BTW - The sound of the Production Grand surprised me too, I liked it almost as much as the Concert Grand. Any reason why the recordings got sped up? Something wrong or incomplete in the MIDI file? PianoTeq, Aria, Zenph RePerform HD MIDI Editor and VanBasco's all render it similarly. Anyway, I also got a sense of the the two PV instruments by slowing it down without pitch change using Audacity, but this tool unfortunately distorts the sound a bit when you perform this action.

Thanks!
Posted By: Aves

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/20/18 06:55 AM

Originally Posted by wolfgangmeister

I agree with slobajudge relative to the Embertone's ability to reproduce the Gluck-Sgambati. Really beautiful tones out of this instrument as compared to Production Voices Concert Grand LE and Garrison CFX Full or even PianoTeq Steinway D. It is a very close second for me to the Steingraeber E-272, and that may have been due to the inexact mapping of the velocity touch response, relative to the original recording. This actually may be the biggest problem I heard with the PV "Steinway D" Concert Grand recording... the touch response seems to be off a bit as the piece crescendos... The Garritan CFX Full was my third favorite and this also surprised me as it was warmer and had more character than I expected from hearing some of the demos.

(...)
I definitely agree with you on the Gluck-Sgambati relative to the Embertone tone, BUT, I think the Liszt Orage reveals some of the Embertone's current "playability" deficiencies... without me even playing it... especially with the repedaling and half-pedaling... somehow it is just not right. Notes in the bass are being cut off abruptly, and this does not happen with Garrison CFX, PV Concert Grand LE or with any of the PianoTeq VSTi options. It also doesn't happen when I play it back on my M&H BB Acoustic via PianoDisc SilentDrive HD either!



So, for me, I was actually surprised how good the Embertone came out after rendering the file.

The perceived sound while playing consists of an interaction between both the recorded sound of the samples as the playability of the piano. The CFX sounds MUCH better during playing than the Embertone, or even all other VST's I tried, for exactly this reason.

There are a couple of problems with the Embertone:

- Obvious flaws with the pedaling, which are actually not that bad in the recordings of the Gluck pieces, worse in the Orage piece, but somehow when I play it seems to be even worse. Maybe has something to do with the way I'm used to pedaling, but please mind that I have no problems on other VST's (pianoteq/CFX/Vintage D/Grandeur) or any real piano/grand.

- When playing the piano, it feels sometimes like I'm playing 'on felt', little bit like the middle practice pedal on an upright piano. I lose the (mental) connection between playing and the sound output. Most of the times, this is an issue with the dynamic/velocity curves (latency is already very small). However, I still haven't been able to fully correct this (the lack of fine control of the velocity curves in the interface does not help). The middle-lower part of the piano sounds muffled compared to the upper part that sounds quite sharp. The timbre of the sound in different velocity levels changes to much to my taste, in which lower velocities again sound to muffled and higher velocities to bright. Again this possibly has to do with my inabilities to get the velocity and dynamic curves right. All in all it does not feel very 'even', although I'm not an expert as that I can not give any numbers or technical interpretations of this as some users on this forum can.

- Overall lack of 'thunder' or 'body' in the sound of the lower registers. The CFX really shines on this.

I'm really puzzled what the Garritan CFX does which makes it such a playable piano, for me up there with PianoTeq, but I guess even better because of the mentioned interaction between sound and playability.

Originally Posted by wolfgangmeister

I think I recorded them at a TEMPO 25% and 15% slower, respectively, than what got posted here for both Production Voice VSTis and the Garritan/Embertone recordings! The MIDI file I shared should have taken 5:15.8 (or 315.8 sec) to complete. I believe I would be dead right now if I tried to match the phenomenal increased PV 25% lightning pace... or perhaps at the Garritan/Embertone 15% faster pace I feel like the undiscovered protege of the late Vladimir Horowitz! BTW - The sound of the Production Grand surprised me too, I liked it almost as much as the Concert Grand. Any reason why the recordings got sped up? Something wrong or incomplete in the MIDI file? PianoTeq, Aria, Zenph RePerform HD MIDI Editor and VanBasco's all render it similarly. Anyway, I also got a sense of the the two PV instruments by slowing it down without pitch change using Audacity, but this tool unfortunately distorts the sound a bit when you perform this action.


In hindsight your MIDI file was fine. When I imported the MIDI file in Studio One, I got some weird tempo markings (with tempo of 250-300) and tought maybe the tempo was wrongly interpreted by the software. To be sure I changed the speed of the recording a bit to average the lenghts of the pieces found elsewere.


Posted By: slobajudge

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/20/18 08:14 AM

As far as I know Embertone working hard on update for piano, it is a matter of days, so it will be very interesting to test it after update.
Posted By: RobR

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/20/18 09:24 AM

I'm hoping (and i don't think they will) Embertone addresses the attack delay issue when you hit a key. That made the piano completely unplayable for me, it's like i feel like i'm playing with "third party" hands or with gloves, no connection whatsoever because of that delay.

In audio, even if you're playing on 64 buffer, sometimes latency get introduced when you insert effects on your track (limiter, certain reverbs...), that's why it's a rule of thumb not to use third party plugin effects when recording. My concern is that Embertone may have some of those "third-party" effects already baked in the engine.

If they address this issue in the update, then it will be welcomed back to my SSD, because as for now it's out of my computer, moved to an external dead archives drive.
Posted By: Max_Forte

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/20/18 02:19 PM

I rendered 88-key chromatic scale with PV - Concert Grand in several velocity levels:

1, 4, 8, 16, 20, 24, 28, 32, 36, 40, 44, 48, 52, 56, 60, 64, 68, 72, 76, 80, 84, 88, 92, 96, 100, 104, 108, 112, 116, 120, 127

Souncloud link

"Concert Grand" - preset used with bypassed reverb. No other tweaking, processing or loudness adjustments made.

For those who are wondering about different loudness level. Hope this helps.

BTW, Sounds great. smile
Posted By: Grazilerimba

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/20/18 04:52 PM

That's an interesting experiment Max Forte, and in those recordings the piano does sound really good. The piano sounds great in general, IMHO. The thing is, those recordings do not adequately portray the issue of the weak upper registers. If you listen really closely, you might hear it to some extent - because the last notes (the higest octave on the piano) are very clear and cut through, but the notes about one or two octaves below that are noticeably weaker. You gotta play the instrument and actually feel the weakened response of the keys while playing chords and melodies that go into those areas and move away from them to really get an idea of this issue. I'm really surprised this isn't clearer in your recordings, would have thought it would be.

Aa for the Embertone, I'm waiting for the update as well. Really curious if they will improve on it. The developers seem to be very responsive to their customers from what I can see.
Posted By: TheodorN

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/20/18 06:01 PM

Is the Soundcloud sound wave diagram an indication, that the volume of the higher notes is indeed lower? The bars are lower in height for the higher notes, than for the low to middle ones, in Max's recordings.

Is it possibly normal that the notes higher in frequency, are automatically lower in volume? Is an acoustic piano like that?

Sorry for all those questions, but I have a few more.

It's positive, that Embertone is responsive to the complaints of their customers, but shouldn't they, or any VSTi producer for that matter, make sure they have a product in decent shape, before releasing it on the free market?

Is it acceptable, that even the biggest names in the field of virtual instruments, are releasing products that look like old trousers, needing stitches here and there?

Are the manufacturers moving their R&D departments to the final customer, thus getting cheap labour for research and development? Well, actually totally free, because VSTis are not going down in price, as far as I can tell.
Posted By: toddy

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/20/18 06:31 PM

Originally Posted by TheodorN
Is the Soundcloud sound wave diagram an indication, that the volume of the higher notes is indeed lower? The bars are lower in height for the higher notes, than for the low to middle ones, in Max's recordings.

Is it possibly normal that the notes higher in frequency, are automatically lower in volume? Is an acoustic piano like that?


Yes. The lower the note, the higher the energy needed to achieve the same perceived volume. (though I doubt this relationship is linear across the spectrum). The 'bars' you mention are actally waves whose height represents amplitude, which is energy.
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/20/18 07:14 PM

And to add to that ... the higher the note, the higher the energy needed to achieve the same perceived volume.
Our hearing is at its peak at around 1 kHz, and drops off marked above and below.
Posted By: Max_Forte

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/20/18 11:05 PM

One more thing that caught my attention. PV's demo at Soundcloud:


SoundCloud: Concert Grand demo track - "Depths Of You by Eric Levy" starting at 1:12


Please, pay attention (starting at 01:12) to incredible real-life resonances. Interference of the sound waves results in chaotic sound reflections of the ringing strings in an unpredictable way! It makes you forget these are samples, not Pianoteq nor the real piano! Every time he presses the keys really hard piano adds different "colors" and tones to the core sound palette. Forty seconds of playing different samples per key: It is more like Pianoteq than the other libraries.

I like it more and more. Best "Steinway" on the VSTi market now.

Thanks to tdwctdwc for his advice to do "Batch-Resave", many issues gone.




Glad I bought it! smile
Posted By: bsntn99

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/20/18 11:31 PM

I think it's a bit disingenuous to call this the best vsti as this is your opinion and others may not feel as you do. I doubt the playability is on the level of the Garritan CFX or Pianoteq. I have the Concert Grand Compact which is the a subset of Concert Grand LE containing only the side mics. As I mentioned earlier, I find the setup more pop oriented with some unison tuning issues and a very hard attack. In the demos I am also picking up a bit of buzzing here and there. I notice this as well with a few of the samples in CGC. This may not be everyone's cup of tea.

Realize this is a piano that has been dragged around on the road and probably subjected to a lot of swings in terms of temperature and humidity. I would much prefer sampling a piano that has been left in situ in a studio or other controlled surroundings. I get that you are passionate about this library, but I think folks need to listen to demos and grab the Concert Grand Compact demo to try and make up their own mind. For me I'm passing and will look toward the Embertone. Currently I much prefer The Grandeur overall versus PV Concert Grand, but to each his own.
Posted By: Grazilerimba

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/21/18 02:41 AM

Originally Posted by TheodorN
Is the Soundcloud sound wave diagram an indication, that the volume of the higher notes is indeed lower? The bars are lower in height for the higher notes, than for the low to middle ones, in Max's recordings.

Is it possibly normal that the notes higher in frequency, are automatically lower in volume? Is an acoustic piano like that?

Sorry for all those questions, but I have a few more.

It's positive, that Embertone is responsive to the complaints of their customers, but shouldn't they, or any VSTi producer for that matter, make sure they have a product in decent shape, before releasing it on the free market?

Is it acceptable, that even the biggest names in the field of virtual instruments, are releasing products that look like old trousers, needing stitches here and there?

Are the manufacturers moving their R&D departments to the final customer, thus getting cheap labour for research and development? Well, actually totally free, because VSTis are not going down in price, as far as I can tell.


I agree with you whole heartedly on these things, because it makes me mad as well. It is not acceptable and it should not be tolerated. Thing is, sometimes I have reason to doubt that these are calculated moves by the developers. In the case of the Embertone, I'd say it's absolutely borderline fraudulent with advertising features which end up not being in the product. In the case of the Concert Grand, I am not sure what to think. Most of the issues are noticeable by any experienced player using the software for more than five minutes. Why does he invest years of hard work and excrutiating effort only to put it out in this state? What am I supposed to think about that?

Perhaps I am just glad that Embertone will still (claim to) attempt to fix some of their issues because other developers do not care about customer complaints and will either ignore them, or acknowledge them but refuse to fix them, or downright proclaim them a feature. (big-daddy of a tool, anyone?).

As for the Concert Grand being called the best Steinway - I'd think it definitely could have been the best Steinway, but not in this state. I personally think the playability is really good, but those quiet upper registers as well as the broken pedal implementation ruin it.

By the way, I don't understand the line of thinking regarding the state of the grand piano itself. If the quieter keys would be quieter because of not having been used enough (i.e. hammers haven't been cut through?), then why is the highest octave normal again? The highest keys are as crisp and sharp as everything in the, say, lowest four or five octaves. That doesn't make any sense to me. Why would everything else be cut in except those one or two octaves just below the highest octave?

It's one thing to be emotionally and financially invested in something and to then realize that it falls short of the expectations for larger, structural reasons. It's another to be invested only to realize it could very well have been what you have wanted for a long time, and that the things that might have made it work wouldn't have been all that much effort to get right.
Posted By: pianistje

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/21/18 07:22 AM

One little remark..... the last decades new hammerheads have become harder and harder.
To make a new grand sound smooth it literaly needs intensive intonation.... up to 50 times stacking the needles in one hammerhead

I think it had to do with large showrooms where bad Chinese piano's have a sort of 'loud' tone and some first buyers confuse that with 'big' tone.

If a new grand produces a weak register it has something to do with that very register more than the state of the hammerheads in most cases.
I know that i have encountered a few Steinways with one or two weak registers by default.
Years ago it was something that was whispered in the piano industry by some..... to many Steinway's exhibit a small range of weaknesses in the upper octaves.
Of course there are many that don't, but it wouldn't surprise me one bit if the PV Steinway sounds weak in some registers by default !
Posted By: Alexander Borro

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/21/18 11:33 AM

I don't mind when they tame that top end a bit on some pianos , it is fine if you have to stick above an orchestra I imagine and a lot of power is needed, but some go to town on the duplex and overtones, which IMHO is not always needed for solo and can make a bit OTT sounding . Not many are voiced like that mellow, but listen to what they did with this Steinway.


https://youtu.be/o9ev6GVFDkE?t=2m13s

I like it smile

The grandeur is a good example of what sound to me like a modern steinway that came out of the box with a bit to much of that piiiiiinnng for my liking in the upper registers, also, it gets somewhat harsh at higher dynamic levels too for my personal taste.

Actually, It is quite nice to not to have those extra harmonics on the upper registers like you find in some pianos, especially older ones , like the native instrument Maverick for example, (a sampled vintage Bechstein, no duplex at all).
Posted By: Max_Forte

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/21/18 11:35 AM


Originally Posted by bsntn99
I think it's a bit disingenuous to call this the best vsti as this is your opinion and others may not feel as you do. I doubt the playability is on the level of the Garritan CFX or Pianoteq.


First: I said best "Steinway" VSTi. It is disingenuous to attribute to me something that I did not say. wink
Second: In playability, Pianoteq is the KING and plays in the league of its own. It's almost like a real piano in that term. And if I'm ready to sacrifice in my opinion "the beautiful piano sound" my choice is Pianoteq, not CFX. But it's a matter of taste.

After 30 minutes of playing the piano (any good VSTi or a real one), I'm no longer observing sound with a magnifier. And even forget where I am and what do. laugh



Originally Posted by bsntn99
I doubt the playability is on the level of the Garritan CFX or Pianoteq. I have the Concert Grand Compact which is the a subset of Concert Grand LE containing only the side mics.



I doubt that the Mitsubishi Lancer EVOLUTION is a great sports car as I have its little brother Mitsubishi Lancer, not EVO though. But I still think that EVOLUTION one is just a normal family-everyday car too...


Originally Posted by bsntn99
In the demos I am also picking up a bit of buzzing here and there. I notice this as well with a few of the samples in CGC. This may not be everyone's cup of tea.


Sure, but you get what you pay for. Just to mention: There are so many users bought Imperfect samples' pianos, ISW - "Pearl" etc. All these pianos are "imperfectly" sampled and sold for being that.


From the description on the "Concert Grand" official page:

https://www.productionvoices.com/product/concert-grand-le/

[Linked Image]



Originally Posted by bsntn99
Currently I much prefer The Grandeur overall versus PV Concert Grand, but to each his own.


I have Galaxy - Vintage D and NI - The Grandeur both made by Galaxy instruments. In my opinion "NI - The Grandeur" is more a production tool rather than an instrument for a solo performance: Bright piano to cut through a mix.

I like all Galaxy instruments' VSTis and own many of them and will buy again their piano after they release a new one.

Galaxy - Vintage D - is the most efficient piano sample library now. With only 6GB (!!!) of samples, it is really a miracle that it has such a wonderful tone and the great playability.


I'm also waiting for an Embertone's update. I think for some styles "Walker Steinway D" is the best match as it has so great intimate and warm sound you CAN'T get from ANY OTHER VSTi and for just a 99USD... For example, it will fit wonderfully in Adele's "Hello" especially at the beginning (01:13)

https://youtu.be/YQHsXMglC9A?t=1m13s


But once again, I think that "Production Voices - Concert Grand" is more flexible and universal. It's NOT PERFECT at all (some flaws make me mad), but after an update that probably will be released to meet all the new features of "Kontakt 6" (rumored, later this year), it could be a great instrument to enjoy playing.

Posted By: newer player

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/21/18 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by Max_Forte
I'm also waiting for an Embertone's update.

But once again, I think that "Production Voices - Concert Grand" is more flexible and universal. It's NOT PERFECT at all (some flaws make me mad), but after an update that probably will be released to meet all the new features of "Kontakt 6" (rumored, later this year), it could be a great instrument to enjoy playing.


Well, assuming Embertone and Production Voices will release significant updates sometime in the future. . .
Posted By: Max_Forte

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/23/18 12:51 AM

A little correction for readers of this thread who are interested in Concert Grand for Kontakt but could be misleading by statements that Concert Grand Compact for Sforzando and Concert Grand for Kontakt are the same or very close in playability: They are NOT even close! Totally different level of playability and sound! Just downloaded the demo but it is very limited, so it's impossible to play but I could compare the sound which is just different.

"Concert Grand Compact" for Sforzando is not the same as "Concert Grand LE" for Kontakt


Concert Grand Compact for Sforzando has only 12 velocity layers and Concert Grand LE 20-23!

Here on the video, Jason said it clearly: Sforzando has 8 velocity layers less! Or 40% of velocity layers less! It couldn't be "the same at playability" having 40% of recorded dynamics less.

https://youtu.be/-cUAHd148X0?t=17s

Also, you can see it in the screenshot below:

[Linked Image]


Both versions have common only 40% of samples from 1 of 9 recorded mic positions: Mathematically 40% of 1/9 = 40% of 11.11% = 4.44% They are identical by 4.44%! laugh


It's a pity that there is no trial. But I can understand Jason.

If you don't have "Galaxy - Vintage D" or "Ivory II - American Concert D" and are on the market for a Steinway VSTi I would definitely recommend "[b Production Voices - Concert Grand LE" for Kontakt[/b]. If you have "Galaxy - Vintage D" like I do, I still recommend to purchase "PV - Concert Grand".

But be aware of little a flaws that exist in the today's state of the library. If you can live with them, you will enjoy the RAW unprocessed piano sound. It's like a Superior Drummer 3 vs EZDrummer, Addictive Drums or NI- Studio Drummer: Real sound VS glossy and polished (compressed, EQed etc).

For me for a music production NI - The Grandeur is just a great, but for solo - Concert Grand is another story. I can feel it when playing in Beyerdynamic - DT 880. For me Beyers has the unique feature: You hear the sound and "feel" the sound (bass and midrange) with your body as in real life (bone conduction). Yes, it's an illusion but with this piano, it's just a fantastic feeling.
Posted By: Grazilerimba

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/27/18 09:04 PM

So, uhm, crickets? The page hasn't been updated ever since the release, no sign of the full version, and the developer hasn't issued a statement after the initial release. Did anyone hear from him lately? Wasn't there something like an upgrade offer to the full version within a certain time frame after the initial release - I wonder how close we are to that date, since the full version hasn't even been released yet. I'm hoping he isn't abandoning this piano at this point, which would be a real shame. Lots of potential in this one, hurts me to see it go down like this.
Posted By: Max_Forte

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 08/31/18 11:38 PM

Got an Email from Production Voices:

"Concert Grand Full" is available now


Quote
Concert Grand Full available to Concert Grand LE / Gold Users First!
Many of you have been waiting patiently for news of the full Concert Grand release! I am thrilled to announce an upgrade path TODAY for Concert Grand LE and Concert Grand Gold users before we even announce Concert Grand Full to the rest of the world!
The Concert Grand Full upgrade is now available for Mac users as a download and Mac and PC users on Hard Drive.

Why no PC download? The downloader has had some issues with Windows. I’m hopeful that we can resolve this soon. Windows users can upgrade and have access to both Concert Grand LE and Concert Grand Gold, but the 24 bit 96k Concert Grand Platinum samples currently cause our downloader to crash on Windows. So, hard drive seems the best solution.


Concert Grand Full Upgrade Pricing:
Download Edition:
Concert Grand LE users: $99
Concert Grand Gold users: $49
Hard Drive Edition:

Concert Grand LE users: $159
Concert Grand Gold users: $109
Hard drives are brand name USB 3.0 1TB or larger drives (Seagate, Western Digital etc. based on availability). The hard drives are as plain as they come; I simply copy the files onto the drive and ship them out. If you have other Production Voices libraries, such as Production Grand 2, I can add them to the drive by request. Allow 2 weeks, more in some countries, for delivery. I have to copy Concert Grand to every drive and mail individually.
All packages are shipped Canada Post with tracking.

Free Shipping to Canada and USA.

Shipping to UK $40
Most of Europe $50
Big Savings
All upgrade prices reflect a full credit of your purchase price of Concert Grand LE or Concert Grand Gold and significant savings versus buying Concert Grand Full upon release! Both Concert Grand LE and Concert Grand Gold users upgrading with the download version will get Concert Grand Full at the equivalent of paying only $198! This is almost a 15% savings over the initial launch pricing of Concert Grand Full and about 40% savings over the list price of $329.

Posted By: newer player

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand - 02/25/19 08:20 PM

Update to Concert Grand Compact for sforzando (v1.1 issued today)

"Updates with sample start times optimized to match Kontakt version.
This update will remove latency on some samples with inaccurate start times and increase overall playability.
This update is recommended for all Concert Grand Compact Version 1.0 users. If you ordered after February 22, 2019, you do not need to update."

https://www.productionvoices.com/support/
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