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Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017

Posted By: Kawai James

Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 04:38 AM

Hello folks,

Here's some news that you may find interesting:

Quote
To coincide with the company’s 90th anniversary, Kawai is proud to announce that a brand new hybrid digital piano instrument, the NOVUS NV10, will be previewed to the public at Frankfurt Musikmesse 2017.

Read more...


See you in Frankfurt! wink

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: trigalg693

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 04:49 AM

Oh wow, this is excellent. Curious to see pricing, of course. If it's price competitive with the Yamaha N1, I would strongly consider getting one.

Maybe I am crazy, but if the GL-10 sells for ~10k USD, maybe it's still possible for something like this to be under 6k USD.
Posted By: brooster

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 05:19 AM


■ Outline

Product Name: Kawai Hybrid Digital Piano NOVUS (Novus) NV 10
Venue: Frankfurt Music Messe Germany · Frankfurt City International Trade Fair Venue Period: Wednesday, April 5, 2017 (Sat)

"NOVUS NV 10" which will be exhibited this time will be used for Kawai's grand piano keyboard action "Ultra Responsive · Action II", which is highly appreciated for improving performance, by long fulcrum distance and adoption of innovative materials, It is specially arranged for digital piano and mounted, it reproduces without touching its touch performance.
In addition, it has the same features as the grand piano, which is equipped with a "damper mechanism" which is a breakthrough even as a hybrid type, that the keyboard touch lightens when stepping on a damper pedal and the keyboard touch becomes heavier when releasing the damper pedal I will. With this, you can play with the feeling of playing the grand piano.


On the sound side, launched the result of business alliance with Onkyo Corporation (hereafter, Onkyo), sound source technology which reproduces the highest full concert piano SK-EX of Kawai and the sound peculiar to piano, 1 bit processing, premium dual DAC , DIDRC filter, amp etc. Among the latest audio technologies based on Onkyo, it creates a clear piano sound with depth.

■ About NOVUS NV10 demonstration

We will set up a joint booth with Onkyo in Kawai booth and demonstrate NOVUS NV 10. Onkyo's concept audio amplifier with the same technology as NOVUS NV10, concept speaker using Kawai's piano painting also displayed, introducing high quality sound that Kawai and Onkyo's technology merged by playing along with the piano sound of NV10 To do.
During the holding period, we are going to introduce the charm and technology of Kawai Hybrid Digital Piano NOVUS NV 10 through special site ( www.kawai-onkyo.com/NOVUS_preview ) and social media account etc. (Scheduled to be opened on April 5, 2017)

About capital and business alliance with Onkyo

Since the capital and business alliance of November 24, 2015, Onkyo and the Company are promoting joint development of new category products and services. Last year, we exhibited "CS-X1" which we jointly researched and developed at the same event and exhibited very popular. This fiscal year, we further developed the technology of "CS-X1", and this exhibition will show this NOVUS NV10.
We will continue to cooperate with Onkyo in order to reflect new technologies to the products of the two companies.


Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 05:31 AM

It's perhaps worth noting that the 'Millennium III' grand piano action is referred to as 'Ultra Responsive Action II' in Japan.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: ando

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 05:32 AM

Wow, that's big news. Even has the damper mechanism!

In other announcements, a new website has been setup so you can auction off your surplus organs in order to pay for your new Novus NV10... wink
Posted By: USSOWT

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 06:33 AM

May cost twice than a ca97...
Posted By: maurus

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 06:34 AM

Wow that new thing - and the damper mechanism in particular - looks cute. Perhaps I should visit Musikmesse...
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 06:36 AM

This is just awesome! I hope this is what I have been waiting for. My only hope is samples are either non-looped or are considerably longer than current HI-XL. It would be such a shame otherwise.
Posted By: Goss

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 08:21 AM

Véry nice looking.. hope to see more of this soon
Posted By: f3r

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 09:51 AM

Cool! I was waiting for Kawai to put their Millenium III in a DP.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
This is just awesome! I hope this is what I have been waiting for. My only hope is samples are either non-looped or are considerably longer than current HI-XL. It would be such a shame otherwise.

It's still HI-XL
http://www.kawai-global.com/news/novus-nv10-musikmesse-2017-preview/
Posted By: Kridlatec

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 10:37 AM

Please, VPC2 with this action for affordable price!
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by Kridlatec
Please, VPC2 with this action for affordable price!


Absolutely! This action in VPC2, even more compact than VPC1, and at least half the price of VPC1, you bloody capitalists! $399 seems a reasonable price.
Posted By: f3r

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by Kridlatec
Please, VPC2 with this action for affordable price!

Using that action would make it huge and heavy, wouldn't it?
Posted By: Kridlatec

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by f3r
Originally Posted by Kridlatec
Please, VPC2 with this action for affordable price!

Using that action would make it huge and heavy, wouldn't it?

Of course, not for being cheap and mobile device! But many people, I believe, need just extra class action, without built-in acoustic system, sound engine and full grand piano cabinet which highly rise the price. Just a grand-piano action in VPC1 style for our virtual pianos.
Posted By: Dave Horne

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 12:01 PM

This is excellent news! I'm curious to learn more about it.

Any idea about the price?
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by Kridlatec
Originally Posted by f3r
Originally Posted by Kridlatec
Please, VPC2 with this action for affordable price!

Using that action would make it huge and heavy, wouldn't it?

Of course, not for being cheap and mobile device! But many people, I believe, need just extra class action, without built-in acoustic system, sound engine and full grand piano cabinet which highly rise the price. Just a grand-piano action in VPC1 style for our virtual pianos.


A real piano action is a very expensive thing. Add to this the new damper stuff in the Kawai hybrid that requires mechanical linkages between the pedals and the action and you already have a huge cabinet. It's only the speakers and amp that are missing ($200) and the sound engine which probably costs no more than $20. Not a huge saving.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 12:33 PM

Thank you, Kawai smile
Posted By: Bambers

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by f3r
Originally Posted by Kridlatec
Please, VPC2 with this action for affordable price!

Using that action would make it huge and heavy, wouldn't it?


Everyone knows carbon composites are light! wink

(in actual seriousness I'm not sure what the weight of the millennium 3 action is but given that GF2 already seems to replicate much if not all of the 'heft'/inertia of a grand piano then the full action weight may not actually be much more. Extra cabinet will weight more though, + the whole pedal/damper thing.

Originally Posted by f3r

It's still HI-XL


But new 'advanced Acoustic Rendering resonance modelling', still a slim chance that the post attack part of the note may be modelled in some manner. Unlikely I think.
Posted By: augustm

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 01:30 PM

preview, or sell.

It is clear that for the "serious" amateur, living in town with neighbors this could
be fantastic. It is clear from reading about the 1-bit processing that Kawai have an entirely new set of
electronics too -- This is when they were talking about an earlier prototype using this technology: http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/topic/172683/gonew/1.html

Posted By: Goss

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 02:15 PM

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/question620.htm 1 bit dac in conjuction with a class D amp might yield something that would make dogs and bats go crazy when you play it though XD
Posted By: Goss

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 02:44 PM

[Linked Image]
http://www.delamar.de/instrumente/kawai-novus-nv10-39852/
larger pics on that page
Posted By: Tom Fort

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 02:44 PM

Looking forward to reading more about the optical sensors...
Posted By: Dave Horne

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 02:58 PM

Can anyone guesstimate the size of the acoustic piano the action comes from?

I have to say from the picture a few posts above, the Kawai action looks longer than the action in the AvantGrand.
Posted By: Alexander Borro

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 03:00 PM



I recall trying out the GL series pianos ( acoustics that house that millenium 3 action) not long ago, several of them, feels like a pleasure I must say.

Back then, my thought was why do kawai not make an avantgrand like product with that ?? then I thought, perhaps kawai think GF2 is close enough, that it's not worth the extra cost to do a true hybrid, but now it appears they have come around to it.

Great news. I wouldn't expect this to be cheap in a sense of being anywhere close in price to keyboards that house gf2 currently, understandably so, Avantgrand price territory perhaps.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by Goss


Nice.

A picture of the AvantGrand's action, for comparison, would be great.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 03:23 PM

Would be interesting to see whether the hammers hit something, probably a piece of felt in the part of the body that's been removed. And it certainly looks like longer than AG keys.

If this beast's price is near (preferably below) N1, I will be the first one to order it!!!
Posted By: Dave Horne

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 03:51 PM

Anyone willing to venture a guess on the size of the grand piano this action could come from?
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Would be interesting to see whether the hammers hit something, probably a piece of felt in the part of the body that's been removed. And it certainly looks like longer than AG keys.

If this beast's price is near (preferably below) N1, I will be the first one to order it!!!


I think it will be between the N1 and N2 in terms of price. Something like 7/8 grand.
But this monster has a "damper mechanism" and, it appears, longer keys.

So yes, take that, Yamaha!
Posted By: kapelli

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 04:10 PM

It's too big to fit my flat frown
and I assume the price will be in the middle between N1 and N2. But it seems like another breakthrough after AvantGrand and U1 series from Yamaha. First time in history they have real competition. I am omitting V-Grand, because it's price was three Times that of N1.
Posted By: f3r

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 04:14 PM

Note that all current Kawai grands use the Millenium III, even the Shigeru Kawais. Also, Kawai recently (I don't know exactly when) extended the length of the keysticks of their pianos (which ones I don't know, at least on their smaller models including the uprights), putting also the pivot point further back.

Here are some pics of an SK-2 action:
http://wlundahl.zenfolio.com/p311433607/h15ae2b6a#h15ae2b6a

Kawai GL-10:


and Yamaha AvantGrand's:
http://www.mediafire.com/view/44782tma16felxr/IMG_1303.JPG#
http://www.mediafire.com/view/cjidpy59exjm50d/IMG_1299.JPG#
http://www.mediafire.com/view/5c13lb6bz1cmoft/IMG_1296.JPG#
http://www.mediafire.com/view/7d7nc6oq1ps7q33/IMG_1295.JPG#
http://www.mediafire.com/view/s5l8lu1b9f3ss00/IMG_1281.JPG#

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Kridlatec

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene

A real piano action is a very expensive thing. Add to this the new damper stuff in the Kawai hybrid that requires mechanical linkages between the pedals and the action and you already have a huge cabinet. It's only the speakers and amp that are missing ($200) and the sound engine which probably costs no more than $20. Not a huge saving.

Piano action is an expencive thing, but acoustic system in this instrument, developed with Onkyo, doesn't cost 200$ (read about this here:http://www.kawai-global.com/news/kawai-onkyo-cs-x1-musikmesse-2016)
One also can assume, that it would have touchscreen. Fully polished cabinet is also pricy (you can just compare instruments with ebony polish and without (and in NV10 the polished surface seems to be very spacious)), advanced engine also doesn't cost 20$. Also don't forget, that you pay for this features not at cost price as a buyer.
So, I think the difference would be minimum 1-2K.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by Bambers

But new 'advanced Acoustic Rendering resonance modelling', still a slim chance that the post attack part of the note may be modelled in some manner. Unlikely I think.


Yeah, my first guess is that string sympathetic resonance is what is being modeled--not sure if it is talking about an algorithm to determine which strings to ring out, the actual tone of vibration (does it just play the sampled decay?) etc. It didn't strike me as a partially modeled note.

Originally Posted by f3r
Note that all current Kawai grands use the Millenium III, even the Shigeru Kawais. Also, Kawai recently (I don't know exactly when) extended the length of the keys of their pianos (which ones I don't know, at least on their smaller models including the uprights), putting also the pivot point further back.


From what you've said, it sounds like the action mechanism everything that moves other than the keystick is the same, but there's an open question about full keystick length and pivot length, right? Because this will vary on different-sized grands. You could have a 16" Millennium III for a small grand and an 19" Millennium III in a large grand?
Posted By: lolatu

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 04:46 PM

I'm not mad keen on the replacement of physical buttons with an android touch screen, but I'll reserve judgement on that until I've tried it. The UI from the CA series needed a big overhaul in user friendliness so maybe it'll work... or at least let's hope it's possible to install your own apps and Kawai publish an API, so the community can come up with a better one.

At the very least this should put some price pressure on the new N1x and N2x when they come out.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 04:48 PM

Originally Posted by f3r
Note that all current Kawai grands use the Millenium III, even the Shigeru Kawais. Also, Kawai recently (I don't know exactly when) extended the length of the keys of their pianos (which ones I don't know, at least on their smaller models including the uprights), putting also the pivot point further back.

Here are some pics of an SK-2 action:
http://wlundahl.zenfolio.com/p311433607/h15ae2b6a#h15ae2b6a

Kawai GL-10:


and Yamaha AvantGrand's:
http://www.mediafire.com/view/44782tma16felxr/IMG_1303.JPG#
http://www.mediafire.com/view/cjidpy59exjm50d/IMG_1299.JPG#
http://www.mediafire.com/view/5c13lb6bz1cmoft/IMG_1296.JPG#
http://www.mediafire.com/view/7d7nc6oq1ps7q33/IMG_1295.JPG#
http://www.mediafire.com/view/s5l8lu1b9f3ss00/IMG_1281.JPG#

[Linked Image]


OMG! The keys and pivot points are indeed longer on the NOVUS.

Yamaha needs to demolish all existing X models, and start from scratch.
This is what happens when -eight years later- you're so arrogant that you think no one will notice. Well, guess what, Yamaha, we did notice. And now with the NOVUS out of the box, you're looking pretty bad.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 04:55 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14

Yamaha needs to demolish all existing X models, and start from scratch.
This is what happens when -eight years later- you're so arrogant that you think no one will notice. Well, guess what, Yamaha, we did notice. And now with the NOVUS out of the box, you're looking pretty bad.


Heh, as exciting as this is (and it is!), I think it's a bit premature to jump to a conclusion like that! The AGs have all but ruled the roost in this market for almost a decade, with very little competition at all. Who knows how the Novus will actually compare....though I'm definitely expecting a bare-knuckle slugfest for sure.

One thing I'm fairly confident about - HI-XL is leagues above the sampling tech I've heard from Yamaha so far!
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 04:57 PM

I am not the biggest Yamaha lover (read: I have been hating Yamaha for quite a long time) but they have ca$hed out on a way too many AG-s to bother. And the NV10 is still just a picture smile But I hope you are right.
Posted By: Grandman

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 04:58 PM

I don't think this will be inexpensive. Between N2 and N3 if i were to guess price.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by Pete14

Yamaha needs to demolish all existing X models, and start from scratch.
This is what happens when -eight years later- you're so arrogant that you think no one will notice. Well, guess what, Yamaha, we did notice. And now with the NOVUS out of the box, you're looking pretty bad.


Heh, as exciting as this is (and it is!), I think it's a bit premature to jump to a conclusion like that! The AGs have all but ruled the roost in this market for almost a decade, with very little competition at all. Who knows how the Novus will actually compare....though I'm definitely expecting a bare-knuckle slugfest for sure.

One thing I'm fairly confident about - HI-XL is leagues above the sampling tech I've heard from Yamaha so far!


I need to calm down, that's true; but I still believe that what Yamaha has done with the new models (8 years later) is truly unforgivable.

They added two more pianos; which I'm certain will not be that much better than the current sample-set.

They are using a modeling technology taken directly from the Clavinova (VRM). They didn't even bother with at least "VRM 2."

The amps are more powerful, but the speakers' dimensions are the same.

The action was left untouched, and who knows, the crescendo might still be there.
Posted By: spanishbuddha

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by kapelli
It's too big to fit my flat frown
and I assume the price will be in the middle between N1 and N2. But it seems like another breakthrough after AvantGrand and U1 series from Yamaha. First time in history they have real competition. I am omitting V-Grand, because it's price was three Times that of N1.

I agree with this, and the Casio's too, the competition is good.
Posted By: Frédéric L

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 05:42 PM

@Pete14, what is wrong about the speakers dimension ? N3X has 16cm speakers (6.3"). A Focal Alpha 65 has 6.5" speakers and could be compared. Its spec indicates a low frequency of 45Hz. Isn't the bandpass wide enough ? (Note : I havn't the bandpass of the N3X speakers sytem, I must use analogy)

You should take into account that an acoustic piano doesn't have a spectrum which goes as low as its lower "fundamental" frequency (near 27Hz). The soundtable filters the vibrations and renders only a sound with higher harmonics.
Posted By: brooster

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 05:48 PM

Kawai James ,

The NOVUS NV10 looks to be an amazing product but, will any of the NOVUS NV10 technology find its way into an upright cabinet product with a less stratospheric pricing?
Posted By: ando

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14

OMG! The keys and pivot points are indeed longer on the NOVUS.

Yamaha needs to demolish all existing X models, and start from scratch.
This is what happens when -eight years later- you're so arrogant that you think no one will notice. Well, guess what, Yamaha, we did notice. And now with the NOVUS out of the box, you're looking pretty bad.

That's a lot of ridiculous hyperbole. Everybody knows that competition is what drives companies to do better. It's really not surprising that Yamaha didn't rush to innovate these niche products given nobody else wanted to make such an instrument. Let's not forget that they were the company with the balls to go and make the first one and keep making them. They deserve credit for being the first - and for doing it at all. Kawai are the ones who sat on their hands all this time. Of course they were going to have to offer better features in order to get some market share. But let's not dress it up as some sort of altruistic gesture - they didn't develop this product because they thought we were suffering at the hands of Yamaha's slow pace of technological change. It's a business decision - they want a piece of the action and this was the price of admission. And I can imagine this thing is going to cost quite a bit more than the AG's. The AG has been around for ages, it has paid for its R & D. They are also in a position to compete fiercely on price. Kawai has to try to recoup their investment in this new and expensive product. I can see it being very pricey.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 06:13 PM

ando, I'm being facetious. I don't feel that the AvantGrand should be demolished.
Posted By: f3r

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 07:13 PM

Back in 2009, I believe, Kawai showed the DP-1. It had the AWA Grand PRO II with vibration system similar to the AG's, unlooped samples, 5.1 surround system with 10 speakers Front (40w*2, Rear 20W*2, Center 40W, Woofer 90W, VIB 20W - 2cm Domex4, 5cmx2, 12cmx3, 16cmx1). The price was around €10000 if not more.

In 1996 and 1998 they launched the EGP10 and the HA11, the first with a grand action and the second with an upright action. So the Novus is their 3rd "true" hybrid.

They have the Millenium III Upright action that they could use to compete against the Yamaha's NU1.
Would anyone be interested in such a model?
That action is used in the K-200 up to the K-800 and they also feature extended keys. The K-15 is the only one using an old action.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 08:23 PM

I don't think NU1 competitor will work for Kawai. They already have great wooden action that's closer to a real grand one and might actually be better than a real upright action.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 08:26 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
I don't think NU1 competitor will work for Kawai. They already have great wooden action that's closer to a real grand one and might actually be better than a real upright action.


I dunno, some people might actually prefer an upright action or specifically want one? When I play on an NU1 it feels like a different enough experience where I could see it as its own (probably smaller) niche...
Posted By: maurus

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 09:12 PM

Hm, I was not particularly fond of the NU1 action when I played it. The action of a truly good upright (such as a Bechstein or a Pfeiffer) feels rather different.

And by the way, Kawai's Millenium III grand action feels VERY different from their upright action (the one I know best is the one in the K3 which I bought for a friend a few years back; it, too, feels very different from the action in the Pfeiffer that I inherited from family). I wouldn't be thrilled by a Kawai copy of the NU1, I am pretty sure I'd prefer the action(s) in the CA series.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 09:38 PM

I'm not particularly fond of the four speaker grills atop the NOVUS. I assume that -functionally- this is a better approach for sound propagation, but aesthetically I would've preferred for the speakers to be covered by one long and wide grill that would span the back-top width of the instrument, and then to top it off, a lid.

I'm truly happy that Kawai added the damper actuator, and is using fairly long keys.
A soundboard would've been great, but looking at the form factor, it seems like this was never a consideration.
Hopefully, the ONKYO sound system will be a worthy alternative to a soundboard. Still, I'm very excited about this instrument.
Posted By: ElmerJFudd

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 10:13 PM

This is awesome, go Kawai.

Aesthetic Design - Check
Action - Check
Sampling - any chance Kawai is using flash RAM in here to give us full length samples without the looping?
Amp & Speaker System - any chance we have a significant (aka Onkyo) jump in sound quality here? will this instrument sound good in the room, not just to the player?

Very excited about this, James. Very!

- side note: can't wait for the light weight/strong materials to trickle down to the stage pianos. Sub 40lbs MP7 or ES8 - now THAT will be the day!

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Dave Ferris

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 10:27 PM

I'm certain Pierre will have one at his place as soon as they become available in the US. Very curious to play it.

Count me has one who has been Jonesing for the N2 for some time but doesn't want to shell out that kind of dough on a digital.

Like mentioned I doubt this is cheap but maybe priced around the entry level AG.

It looks pretty deep from the picture...definitely wouldn't fit in the bedroom office where I have the CP5 and home computer.
Posted By: Bambers

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 10:30 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14

OMG! The keys and pivot points are indeed longer on the NOVUS.


From what I can see from various photos even the pivots on gf/gf2 are actually longer than the Avantgrands

Originally Posted by Frédéric L
You should take into account that an acoustic piano doesn't have a spectrum which goes as low as its lower "fundamental" frequency (near 27Hz). The soundtable filters the vibrations and renders only a sound with higher harmonics.


I'm not sure that's entirely accurate. Perhaps more that the very low frequencies are fairly weak. They are still there though.

Originally Posted by maurus
Hm, I was not particularly fond of the NU1 action when I played it. The action of a truly good upright (such as a Bechstein or a Pfeiffer) feels rather different.


Not sure if this made a difference but the pivots on the NU1 are very short, considerably so than the more quality uprights.
Posted By: trigalg693

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 10:48 PM

Originally Posted by Goss


Looks good. I like the plastic hammers. Better consistency and cheaper to make than wood most likely. Avantgrands use wooden hammers with a piece of metal attached to the end, and an optical sensor trigger that looks like it's glued to the shank.

Kawai seems to have the optical sensor as part of the molding if my eyes aren't deceiving me, and the plastic hammers are one piece which is probably cheaper than Yamaha's 2 piece hammers. I believe the action itself should be marginally cheaper, as the cost of finishing little wooden pieces is probably higher than the cost of ABS even with carbon fiber filaments in it.

I wonder if the plastic hammers will cause less wear on the backchecks or more. I want to guess less, because ABS is kind of slippery.

No soundboard is also a plus IMO, the cost to benefit ratio is pretty poor. I didn't find the CA97 speakers to be that much better than anything else, and I will use headphones anyways.

I hope they make something very basic like a VPC1 without the glossy case. This is not like an N3X that pretends to be a real piano with its fancy case, it's just another rectangular box, so no need to spend money on the frivolous things.
Posted By: lolatu

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/30/17 11:09 PM

If they price this the same as the AvantGrand N1, I predict it'll blow Yamaha out of the water and be a huge success. Might even consider getting one myself... However I think realistically it'll be more like the price of the N2; they'll sell about 50 worldwide and it'll go down in history as a little-remembered curiosity like the DP-1.
Posted By: ando

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/31/17 03:22 AM

Originally Posted by Pete14
ando, I'm being facetious. I don't feel that the AvantGrand should be demolished.


Of course the bit about demolishing pianos was facetious, but you were pretty critical of what Yamaha has done. I was providing some context. Let's wait and see how this new Kawai presents and then we'll see how Yamaha raises its game.
Posted By: sullivang

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/31/17 03:39 AM

Bloody awesome!

Btw, just because it's HI-XL, does that necessarily imply that the samples are the same length as current?

Greg.
Posted By: ando

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/31/17 04:40 AM

Originally Posted by sullivang
Bloody awesome!

Btw, just because it's HI-XL, does that necessarily imply that the samples are the same length as current?

Greg.


It's a funny one. "HI-XL" is branding so it's hard to know what exactly it encompasses. I always thought of it as being a sound fidelity thing - as in bits and kHz, in which case it could be applied to any set of samples of any length. But it might also be the branding of the samples and their quality combined. Although Kawai did add the SK pianos to their EX samples. We really don't know. But I would hope and expect that they would develop a new sample set with extra long decays for such a premium piano. It will be fascinating to finally see it and play it.
Posted By: sullivang

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/31/17 05:08 AM

Yes - I also thought it was more to do with the fidelity of the samples.

Greg.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/31/17 05:17 AM

http://www.kawaius.com/digital/Features/sound_technology.html

The "XL" is extra long (iirc meaning up to 4 seconds of sample on the attack portion for the lower bass notes). So to me it sounds like a pretty discrete sampling package/process. But of course Kawai is free to expand or change its own definitions (just like Roland has done to the confusion of the entire internet). So they could have an entirely different sampling methodology and still call it HI-XL if they wanted to.
Posted By: sullivang

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/31/17 05:34 AM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
(just like Roland has done to the confusion of the entire internet).


You mean just like you THINK Roland has done. You don't know this for sure, do you? I've yet to see a statement from Roland confirming this. Have you?

Thanks for the info about HI-XL though.

Greg.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/31/17 05:38 AM

Heh, your statement pretty much supports the point wink
Posted By: sullivang

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/31/17 05:41 AM

Bollocks.

Back to Kawai. smile

Greg.
Posted By: EssBrace

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/31/17 07:08 AM

Just my thoughts but the way Kawai has renamed each iteration of their proprietary sound chip (HI, HI88, PHI, UPHI, Hi-XL etc) I would be surprised if the sound generation/sampling is different to any significant degree on the new piano (which looks like a very promising instrument I must say). I think they'd call it something new if it was new.

I also agree with Gombessa - Roland 'SuperNatural' has been a term applied to significantly different technologies, hence the confusion caused.

sullivang's use of the term "Bollocks" is also confusing. It could relate to the idea that Gombessa said something that is nonsense. Or it could relate to testes either in general or with particular reference to specific testes. Or it could just be a symptom of frustration or annoyance on Greg's part. It's difficult to say at the present time. Greg, you should clear this up now before confusion reigns on the internet.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/31/17 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by augustm
preview, or sell.


The NOVUS NV10 will be previewed at Musikmesse, however unlike the CS-X1 last year, this model will be produced and officially announced (with full specifications - including the sound engine - and pricing info) later in the year.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/31/17 08:29 AM

Presentation schedule:

[Linked Image]
Posted By: augustm

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/31/17 08:43 AM

@james, ah then truly interesting!
Posted By: sullivang

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/31/17 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by EssBrace

I also agree with Gombessa - Roland 'SuperNatural' has been a term applied to significantly different technologies, hence the confusion caused.

Indeed, however they have not stated that they have re-named SN Mk II to V-Piano. Gombessa has provided evidence (and good/sensible evidence) to support his opinion, but Roland have not actually said that they have.

Quote

sullivang's use of the term "Bollocks" is also confusing. It could relate to the idea that Gombessa said something that is nonsense. Or it could relate to testes either in general or with particular reference to specific testes. Or it could just be a symptom of frustration or annoyance on Greg's part. It's difficult to say at the present time. Greg, you should clear this up now before confusion reigns on the internet.


LOL. smile The first and third meaning seem apt. smile I think it is nonsense to suggest that because Roland have NOT confirmed that SN II is equivalent to V-Piano, that this in fact CONFIRMS it! This seems like rather strange logic to me.
Gombessa - did you mean to say that because they have not DENIED it, that this suggests they are equivalent? That would make more sense.
Maybe they generate all this mystery deliberately, to get us all talking about it so much. I mean, here we are AGAIN, in a Kawai thread, talking about it! Well done Roland. smile

Btw, Gombessa, if you simply qualify that it's your opinion, every time you say that SN II is equivalent to V-Piano, I won't object. (if you care whether I object or not smile The reason I object is that you are a little too definite - the way you speak, it suggests that Roland have officially stated this, which is simply not the case.

Greg.
Posted By: EssBrace

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/31/17 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by sullivang
Originally Posted by EssBrace

I also agree with Gombessa - Roland 'SuperNatural' has been a term applied to significantly different technologies, hence the confusion caused.

Indeed, however they have not stated that they have re-named SN Mk II to V-Piano. Gombessa has provided evidence (and good/sensible evidence) to support his opinion, but Roland have not actually said that they have.


Yes, fair point.

To my mind it is certainly a sensible assumption that SN-II has become 'V-Piano engine' (most probably for marketing purposes) on the RD application, but you are quite right, Roland has never confirmed this.
Posted By: PikaPianist

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/31/17 10:53 AM

Oh Kawai! Shut up and take my money!
Posted By: navyasw02

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/31/17 02:03 PM

What is 1-bit processing?
Posted By: Goss

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/31/17 02:09 PM

instead of converting the digital signal in 16 or 24 bit blocks, it does so in 1 bit - this causes a lot of noise above human hearing levels among other things, and onkyo's added DIDRC tech deals with this noise problem.
http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/question620.htm

Posted By: clothearednincompo

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/31/17 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by navyasw02
What is 1-bit processing?


An irrelevant technical detail.

Aren't 1-bit DACs fairly common in consumer electronics, actually?

Something like pulse width modulation to chop the 1-bit signal on-off-on-off very fast with a varying pulse width according to the intended signal and then a low pass filter to smooth things out to a nice analog signal before reaching the speakers, right?

Of course in this case it's a very high quality 1-bit DAC. smile
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/31/17 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by sullivang

Indeed, however they have not stated that they have re-named SN Mk II to V-Piano. Gombessa has provided evidence (and good/sensible evidence) to support his opinion, but Roland have not actually said that they have.

Btw, Gombessa, if you simply qualify that it's your opinion, every time you say that SN II is equivalent to V-Piano, I won't object. (if you care whether I object or not smile The reason I object is that you are a little too definite - the way you speak, it suggests that Roland have officially stated this, which is simply not the case.

Greg.


Haha, that's the thing! The whole situation with Roland is so epic that we're the following situation: you assumed I was talking about V-PIano versus SN, but I that's not even the case (Vizzini: you fell for one of the classic blunders)!

When the LX-17 and other modeled SN pianos were released, Roland used (and still uses) the same "SuperNatural Piano" terms to describe them as they did for the older RD-800 era SN-decay engine. And nobody knew what the difference was between the two (Why unlimited polyphony? Are there samples involved?"). A Roland rep (yes, Jay) pretty much had to step in and unequivocally confirm, multiple times in fact, that the "new" SN was fully modeled, with no AP samples at all residing in the instrument (and so many people doubted him even then, due to contrary statements made by reps on those shop-sponsored youtube reviews--see, even they didn't know).

And of course, Roland didn't call it "SN II," they kept exactly the same terminology they wanted to use to brand their technology. This is directly analogous to the idea that Kawai, if they wanted to, could alter HI-XL however they please, and keep the name the same.

That's all I'm saying. I'm not trying to cast aspersions on Roland or any other manufacturer. Just making a point that the defined term can change and is really maintained only at the whim of the definer.

OK, I've hijacked this long enough. Back to the Novus, which I'll sadly never own, but am happy to pine for smile
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/31/17 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Originally Posted by navyasw02
What is 1-bit processing?


An irrelevant technical detail.

Aren't 1-bit DACs fairly common in consumer electronics, actually?

Something like pulse width modulation to chop the 1-bit signal on-off-on-off very fast with a varying pulse width according to the intended signal and then a low pass filter to smooth things out to a nice analog signal before reaching the speakers, right?

Of course in this case it's a very high quality 1-bit DAC. smile


I thought the same too. Reminds me of SACD which, IMO, turned to be virtually indistinguishable from regular CD audio quality, so it is just a clever science that's not particularly useful but is being exploited by clever marketing smile
Posted By: Goss

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/31/17 03:20 PM

Higher sampling rates combined with higher bitrates yields a lower noise floor and more dynamic range and less time smearing - current 16 bit 44.1 pianos have a dynamic range of 95db, concert grands can go to 115 or more db, so more hertz n bits are good things for that and other aspects. http://boson.physics.sc.edu/~kunchur/papers/Audibility-of-time-misalignment-of-acoustic-signals---Kunchur.pdf
Posted By: Frédéric L

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/31/17 03:22 PM

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1-bit_DAC They seem to be quite common. Multibit DACs need multiple voltage/resistor/current sink to be tuned very accurately. Designing a 1-bit DAC could be simpler.
Posted By: Goss

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/31/17 03:28 PM

Simpler but more noise shaping requiring more filtering - every approach has advantages and disadvantages
Posted By: sullivang

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/31/17 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
you assumed I was talking about V-PIano versus SN, but I that's not even the case (Vizzini: you fell for one of the classic blunders)!


Yes, I did, because that's what we've been talking about in the context of the RD-2000 for so long now - SN (II) vs V-Piano. I apologise for my classic blunder. smile

Originally Posted by EssBrace
To my mind it is certainly a sensible assumption that SN-II has become 'V-Piano engine'

And to my mind it is an even more sensible assumption that because Roland say the RD-2000 has the V-Piano engine, and that the FP90/HP/LX etc have S.N, that there is some difference, possibly only small, between the two, because otherwise they would not have given two names to the same thing.

Greg.
Posted By: Goss

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/31/17 03:57 PM

Two names for the same thing is like glass half full or glass half empty isn't it - right now that is what it boils down to because Roland has not given any details on the actual makeup of the content of the glass XD

http://www.kawai-onkyo.com/NOVUS_preview goes live april 5th
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/31/17 04:24 PM

Sadly I care for Roland less with each new release. I used to like their piano sound in my RD-700SX which was sampled from Steinway, (another patch from Yamaha but I didn't like it, etc). Then they switched to SN which was some weird breed of multiple pianos mixed into one with slight modeling features on top of the samples and it was very unconvincing to me, then the fully modeled which is even more unrealistic and unconvincing. Roland are currently on the bottom of my list, despite my best efforts to like their pianos.
Posted By: Goss

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/31/17 04:26 PM

I feel the same way about my son sometimes.
Posted By: Dutch Dhamma

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/31/17 05:33 PM

Please.. let us focus on our topic at hand smile
Posted By: Hendrik42

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/31/17 05:36 PM

Coming back to the Novus: great to see some of the technology from the Kawai Onkyo prototype from 2016 making it into a product soon. If the Novus is in stores late this year or early next, then we can expect that technology in the new CA models which are due next year (or is it 2019?).

Could a full blown pedal mechanic be incorporated into the CA97? Or just the CS11 with its acoustic-piano size cabinet?

Has anyone seen measurements of the Novus yet? Looks like 10-20cm deeper than a upright?
Posted By: Goss

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/31/17 05:38 PM

I think your guess is about right Hendrik. No reason not to make an upright version of this, though eying the design it is not that far off the mark to start with in that respect dimension wise. Might make more sense to scale úp really.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/31/17 05:39 PM

Originally Posted by Dutch Dhamma
Please.. let us focus on our topic at hand smile


+1

What's the price going to be?

Is this going to be a real product?

I'm going to be honest, it's going to take a lot for me to be a paying customer for $10k-20k digital piano, but I can't deny the impact of halo products.
Posted By: EssBrace

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/31/17 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by Goss
Higher sampling rates combined with higher bitrates yields a lower noise floor and more dynamic range and less time smearing - current 16 bit 44.1 pianos have a dynamic range of 95db, concert grands can go to 115 or more db, so more hertz n bits are good things for that and other aspects.


Are you sure about all this?

I take dynamic range to be the difference between the quietest tones and the loudest. To make a realistic piano I think you are looking for that figure to be maybe 30 - 40 db. Any more than that gives quite an exaggerated result. You seem to be talking about absolute volume maxima, which is a different thing in my book.
Posted By: Frédéric L

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/31/17 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by Goss
Simpler but more noise shaping requiring more filtering - every approach has advantages and disadvantages

I don't understand what you meen by noise shaping. I am used to mean adding a specific noise befeore quantification in order to offset some quantification noise in the higher frequency.

Here, we have allready a digital signal. Too late to process a noise shaping. What we have to do is to convert it with a simple delta-sigma modulation, then the 1 bit output is just filtered in order to produce an analog signal.
Posted By: Frédéric L

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/31/17 06:02 PM

About the dynamic, I don't know how we can extend the dynamic with the sampling frequency. 16bit at 44.1kHz and 88.2kHz is still 96dB. If we want to get further, we should use 24bit.
Posted By: Goss

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/31/17 06:37 PM

Yes Ess - many instruments have far larger dynamic range than what CD quality can record 1:1, hence the use of compressors and limiters in recording, besides making muzak sound nice on limited transistor radios so the sound is more even and does not explode here or is too faint there, they are necessary with many instruments especially when these instruments play together to even them out in the final mix to more closely resemble what your ears hear with the live performance.

Yeah Frederic - bitrate and sampling rate together is yields the higher dynamic range - higher sampling rate alone or higher bitrate alone does not.
Posted By: Frédéric L

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/31/17 07:40 PM

With 16 bits 44.1kHz, you have 96dB of dynamic. With 24dB 44.1kHz you have far more dynamic than what the S/N of your card can offer.

Then the sample frequency is irrelevant if you want a dynamic range : you can enhance the dynzmic range with the bit depth alone, but not with the sampling frequency.

The bitrate is not a good measure : it is the product of the sample frequency and the bit depth.
Posted By: EPW

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/31/17 09:14 PM

Here is a little summary of 1-bit audio.
http://dsd-guide.com/what-dsd-audio-simple-explanation#.WN7C7Dq1vcs
Posted By: DavidR816

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/31/17 09:14 PM

From the photos it looks a bit deeper than then N2, and similar to the N1 (which is 62cm deep). I'm guessing the height is the same as most grands - 101cm
Posted By: Goss

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/31/17 09:56 PM

Yeah Frederic I meant to type bitdepth, not bitrate. Lots of info on this out there, and lots and lots and insanely much discussion lol.. not the thread to do so here I suppose ^^ back to this very nice looking Kawai
Posted By: Goss

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/31/17 10:03 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14
I'm not particularly fond of the four speaker grills atop the NOVUS. I assume that -functionally- this is a better approach for sound propagation, but aesthetically I would've preferred for the speakers to be covered by one long and wide grill that would span the back-top width of the instrument, and then to top it off, a lid.

Eying that slit underneath the top, and the fallboard not covering that slit when raised, I think perhaps there are
speakers inside aimed directly at the player ^^
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/31/17 11:01 PM

Yes, this opening indicates that there are speakers inside facing the player.
The N2 has a similar opening for, I believe, the same reason.
Posted By: doremi

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/01/17 05:51 PM

Wishing for a 69 key version E to C to fit into more homes for the market success it will be!
Posted By: ElmerJFudd

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/01/17 07:35 PM

^
Not likely for digital piano like this. If you have the $$ for what this instrument is going to cost, you probably have the space too.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/01/17 08:28 PM

Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
^
Not likely for digital piano like this. If you have the $$ for what this instrument is going to cost, you probably have the space too.


Gotta agree with this. I'd wager there'd be more of a market for an extended 92- or 97-key extended version than a chopped (though both would be minuscule in an already niche space).
Posted By: sullivang

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/01/17 09:05 PM

I thought it was an April fools joke....no?

Greg.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/01/17 09:07 PM

Good point. I'm a sucker for Poe's law.
Posted By: brooster

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/05/17 01:59 PM

Millennium III Action

Kawai’s Millennium III action offers premium playability to both traditional and modern musicians. The components for the Millennium III are crafted from ABS-Carbon for long lasting durability. The components are lightweight and manufactured with improved accuracy and attention to detail, so each key has a smooth and consistent playability for the entire motion. The lighter material allows players to achieve extra speed without compromising comfort. Each key on the NV10 has been redesigned with an updated jack texture for more control, which is ideal for pianissimo styles of music. The Millennium III action achieves new levels of durability whilst retaining outstanding playability.

Damper System

Advanced piano players require a high quality dampening system for an expressive performance. The NV10 utilises an updated hybrid method to achieve the most dynamic response possible. This incorporates the pedals directly with the strings for a more integrated and realistic feel. Despite there being no strings, the high precision optical sensors can transmit detailed information levels to pick out the subtle nuances in your style. When engaged, the pedal subtly releases key pressure for a more authentic likeness to acoustic pianos.

Onkyo Collaboration

Kawai’s collaboration with hi-fi audio company Onkyo gives the NV10 the sound projection and clarity it deserves. The DIDRC filter technology removes the unnecessary high frequencies and static noise that digital instruments produce at loud volumes, resulting in a more natural sound. This feature maintains the classic tone assigned to Kawai pianos, whilst eliminating any undesirable background noise. The NV10’s speakers are specifically positioned to project groups of frequencies. The lower facing speakers produce warm, thick bass tones, whilst the top speakers project clear highs. The result is a rounded overall sound with authentic projection for both the audience and the performer. Onkyo have also designed the headphone speaker experience, so your rehearsals and private use remains immersive.

Specifications

Keyboard

Number of Keys: 88
Key Material: Spruce
Key Components: ABS Carbon
Keytops: Synthetic Ivory and Ebony
Action: Millennium III Weighted
Sounds

Piano Engine: Harmonic Imaging XL

Resonance Modelling: Acoustic Rendering
Sound Profile: Shigeru Kawai SK-EX Concert Grand
Sensor Type: Optical
General

Speakers: Onkyo Collaborative Design
Colour: Polished Ebony
Interface: LCD Colour Screen
Music Rest: Included
Lid Type: Folding
Pedals: Damper, Soft, Sostenuto

Kawai-Novus-NV10
Posted By: f3r

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/05/17 02:14 PM

I'm impatiently waiting for the videos... The e-stores should stop putting up product pages with inaccurate or incomplete specs.
Posted By: Bambers

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/05/17 03:03 PM

New engine and new resonance modelling. Interesting. This really needs to go through the DPBSD tests....

Or not? The main site seems to suggest harmonic imaging XL, did someone just miss the L of the end in places??
Posted By: brooster

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/05/17 08:57 PM

Originally Posted by Bambers
New engine and new resonance modelling. Interesting. This really needs to go through the DPBSD tests....

Or not? The main site seems to suggest harmonic imaging XL, did someone just miss the L of the end in places??


Gear4Music forgot the L in the Harmonic Imaging XL.
Posted By: sullivang

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/05/17 09:33 PM

The sampling tech is much more important than the "1-bit processing" IMHO.

Greg.
Posted By: f3r

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/05/17 10:08 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wpFEhmozlI



Just talking about the action, but it is the first video about the Novus
Posted By: ElmerJFudd

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/05/17 11:56 PM

This action speaks for itself - I know I'm going to love it without even playing it.
The question is, will this be the first effort we see from the Onkyo relationship that makes a significant jump in how a digital piano sounds in the room? Not through headphones, not recorded direct, but acoustically in the room - and not just from the player's perspective.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 12:22 AM

Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
This action speaks for itself - I know I'm going to love it without even playing it.


Famous last words, but I agree. A real grand action is going to be phenomenal, and we know how much Kawai emphasizes development of its DP actions, so I'm not even worried about this.

Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
The question is, will this be the first effort we see from the Onkyo relationship that makes a significant jump in how a digital piano sounds in the room? Not through headphones, not recorded direct, but acoustically in the room - and not just from the player's perspective.


While I hope so, frankly I'm not expecting any miracles here. I don't think Onkyo is privy to any super secret technology or know-how that they're just waiting to bust out with this collaboration. I'm sure it'll sound great, but I'm not going to hold out hope for earth-shattering just yet!

The real question for me is the price. Am I going to be able to entertain thoughts about one day splurging for this? Or is the CFO going to give me that "we're not even discussing this" look? smile
Posted By: Tom Fort

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 01:44 AM

The Bonners video is more of a teaser for the Novus than actual information about the Novus. The piano in the video is an SK-3 and the modeled action is also a Shigeru Kawai acoustic grand action.

Agree that the Milennium III in the Novus should be exceptional. I still am waiting for any information about the optical sensing system.

I'm also curious that the naming of the Novus (Novus NV10) might imply more models in the Novus family in the future?
Posted By: Frédéric L

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 04:05 AM

@sullivang: It is nice to know what means 1-bit processing since it is perhaps a quite used technology (piano, sound card, CD-players), but you are right, you will choose the piano for other reasons. (Perhaps all current digital pianos have a DAW with 1-bit DAC... but we don't know about.).
Posted By: Upright

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 08:54 AM

Thank you James for allowing me to record the presentation of the NOVUS NV10 yesterday. For all those, who are interested in the NV10 but do not have the chance to visit Musikmesse 2017, here is a video of James presentation. I hope, that this is ok for Kawai, but I expect, that they like it, when news about this great, wonderful instrument is spread.



Martin
Posted By: f3r

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 09:53 AM

Thanks for the video, Martin!
Posted By: augustm

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 10:22 AM

Very promising! Nice mechanics, but also very long, slow decays of notes! Binaural samples and it is perfect.

It would be interesting to understand the difference the new sound system makes to the traditional Kawai digital sound. Is it very different? When looking this year I was very impressed by Kawai mechanics and feel, less so by the sound production. We will have to wait a short time...

I did manage to play a Shigeru instrument, which I found quite amazing. If they get closer to this then it is an absolute winner.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 10:27 AM

Hello Martin, thank you for shooting the video. I did not realise that you had planned to upload to YouTube!

The very first presentation of the first day! I have not watched the clip yet, but I recall stumbling rather badly through the main explanation, and our pianist Entani-san dashing-out of the room in order to collect her sheet music!

I believe subsequent presentations gradually improved, so it would be a little disappointing if your video of the very first performance becomes the only record of our efforts... We can do much better!

Regardless, thank you for joining the presentation!

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: Upright

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 10:39 AM

Hello James, I am aware, that I actually asked about the recording and not for the uploading to youtube. It wasn't really planned. But as the video turned out not too bad, being only a smartphone video, and even the sound is quite decent, I wanted to share it.

Don't worry about some stumbling. The presentation was very natural. It is clear that you and Entani-san very much like what you are doing. So it was a joy to be in the presentation. It surely is a privilege to work for Kawai.

Martin
Posted By: Bambers

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by Tom Fort
The piano in the video is an SK-3 and the modeled action is also a Shigeru Kawai acoustic grand action.


While the piano is indeed an sk3, he does state the demo action is from the novus and it looks like the novus action from what we've seen so far. Note the carbon composite faux hammer and the lack of actual damper.

Demo grand piano actions typically have a real felt hammer and have the damper rod and felt damper engaging and disengaging with the metal rod.
Posted By: mabraman

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Hello Martin, thank you for shooting the video. I did not realise that you had planned to upload to YouTube!

The very first presentation of the first day! I have not watched the clip yet, but I recall stumbling rather badly through the main explanation, and our pianist Entani-san dashing-out of the room in order to collect her sheet music!

I believe subsequent presentations gradually improved, so it would be a little disappointing if your video of the very first performance becomes the only record of our efforts... We can do much better!

Regardless, thank you for joining the presentation!

Kind regards,
James
x


You did very well!
It sounds promising, nice move.
Posted By: EssBrace

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 11:09 AM

Look after that suit James or you'll never get your deposit back!
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 11:21 AM

Tough crowd...
Posted By: sullivang

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 11:21 AM

Thanks James - very classy and professional - you're a really good presenter! Nice idea to use the Onkyo speakers for the backing, too. I really enjoyed it.

Greg.
Posted By: mabraman

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 11:24 AM

By the way, this model sounds waaay better than any CA I've heard so far. More natural attack, clean and not nasal at all. Held bass notes still have a little static decay, but anyway it sounds better. If this model puts Kawai out of the cheesy sound zone, now that's something!
Posted By: Goss

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 11:36 AM

random movie quote State and Main (2000) : Doc Wilson: It's the truth that you should never trust anybody who wears a bow tie. Cravat's supposed to point down to accentuate the genitals. Why'd you wanna trust somebody whose tie points out to accentuate his ears?

j/k ;P nice presentation and looks like a real nice product for Kawai James =]
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 11:38 AM

Keep in mind that the instrument will be further refined prior to official release. So this great instrument can only get better.

I'd hope that the line-in signal goes through the same level of processing as the on-board sound, so that virtual pianos can have the potential of sounding -in terms of fidelity- as good as the on-board sound when using the on-board speakers.
Posted By: sullivang

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 11:42 AM

Anyone know what that Onkyo "spectra module" headphone amplification actually does?

Greg.
Posted By: Goss

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 12:00 PM

Were those stand mounted speakers on during play or was it just the piano's speakers at work by the way?
Posted By: Bambers

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14
Keep in mind that the instrument will be further refined prior to official release. So this great instrument can only get better.


It's also been recorded from the audience on what is presumably a mobile?

I'd be hesitant to judge the sound too much (good or bad) on that.
Posted By: Goss

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 12:09 PM

Even on the mobile it sounds like a wall of sound though ^^ I think seeing as how those extra stand mounted speakers were there it is safe to assume they were being used also
Posted By: Upright

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by Goss
Were those stand mounted speakers on during play or was it just the piano's speakers at work by the way?

The stand mounted speakers were only used for the backing music.
Posted By: Goss

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 12:44 PM

wow okay - then considering the mobile phone or camcorder recording - this piano is a beast most likely irl ^^ seeing as how James' voice vs the piano's sound. Didn't see you flinch at the volume James but I am guessing I would have XD
Posted By: Tom Fort

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 12:45 PM

At 1:10 in the video, the presenter states that the sample action is from a Kawai acoustic piano. He then states that much of that technology will be featured in the Novus NV-10.
Posted By: kapelli

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 12:56 PM

I thought that it will be ready product, but I see it will still take few months to develop??? The action inside Messe product could be anything, even GF2. They could do this just to see the market's interest.
I see there is some grey area here smile
Maybe James can clarify and tell us something more, as it was already officially announced?

I was just hoping that we will se the price, and seems we will have to wait few months still. An even though it's too big to fit my flat therefore I can't buy it, but knowing the price would be good smile

I do not expect however that thing to be cheaper than twice CA97
Posted By: Upright

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by Tom Fort
At 1:10 in the video, the presenter states that the sample action is from a Kawai acoustic piano. He then states that much of that technology will be featured in the Novus NV-10.


At 8:22 you see the Millennium III hybrid action. The damper heads, damper wires and damper-lever-wire flanges have been replaced by simple weights, see also 11:23 and the felt hammers have been replaced by weighted ABS-Carbon hammers. Apart from that, it looks and works like a usual Millennium III action.

Kind regards
Martin
Posted By: JoeT

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Hello Martin, thank you for shooting the video. I did not realise that you had planned to upload to YouTube!

The very first presentation of the first day! I have not watched the clip yet, but I recall stumbling rather badly through the main explanation, and our pianist Entani-san dashing-out of the room in order to collect her sheet music!

I believe subsequent presentations gradually improved, so it would be a little disappointing if your video of the very first performance becomes the only record of our efforts... We can do much better!

Regardless, thank you for joining the presentation!

It was a very nice presentation and I throughly enjoyed it. Every live performance is unique, that's what makes us human. Even if you felt not being on top of your game, I didn't notice you stumbling at all, that surely marks your professionalism. Was impressed by the flawless performance of your pianist just as by her mastery of our languages.

The sound quality was really great, considering the improvised recording circumstances. That shows how far we have come in technology. So there is nothing to worry about. You, your pianist and the NV10 did very well. thumb
Posted By: Tom Fort

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 02:20 PM

Martin -

I was referring to the earlier video from Bonner's Music, posted by f3r 5 posts above yours. I didn't feel I needed to quote it.
Posted By: f3r

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 02:46 PM

New video from Bonners
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9xyFSPdWss



Talking about the action, again... skip to 5:43 to hear some playing.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 03:02 PM

You did a great job James, super-professional. And the playing was superb, it really showed off the abilities of the pianist and the NV10.

From the descriptions and language used, it kind of sounds like the NV10 will only ship with a single SK-EX tone? As in, going really purist?

I'm now wondering if the HI-XL envisioned for the NV-10 is going to be different than what is currently shipping in Kawai's DP range. It could be the same technology (extra long attack samples, etc.) but I wouldn't be surprised if Kawai was using higher resolution or deeper bitdepth versions from the recording session for the NV-10's HI-XL (I think it's fair to assume that the session resulting in the SK-EX HI-XL sample comprises multiple recordings using multiple mics at extended lengths).
Posted By: Bambers

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by Tom Fort
At 1:10 in the video, the presenter states that the sample action is from a Kawai acoustic piano. He then states that much of that technology will be featured in the Novus NV-10.


hmm yea, missed that first time. A little odd given it's not a full sample action.

See the one in the second vid f3r just posted, that's a full sample acoustic grand action. Saying that, it actually looks near enough identical to the one from the first vid only someones replaced the real hammer with a carbon weight from the novus and removed the damper & riser, perhaps that's the case.
Posted By: Morodiene

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 03:33 PM

James,

At 6:47 in the Musikmesse video, the video you're playing shows the Shigeru SK-EX piano, and underneath that is states "Sampling and Modeling". Does that mean that the sounds are combination of sampling and modeling for the Novus?

Very cool about the pedal mechanism!
Posted By: Goss

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 04:05 PM

Yep - the curb side appeal of the sk-ex sound with the nerd side appeal of modelling
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 04:39 PM

Isn't the combination of sampling and modelling (the latter especially for sympathetic resonances) already being used in the current CA and CS series, probably also in other models and/or previous models of these series? Although it probably has been improved in the NV10, the technology as such is not new.
Posted By: Morodiene

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by JoBert
Isn't the combination of sampling and modelling (the latter especially for sympathetic resonances) already being used in the current CA and CS series, probably also in other models and/or previous models of these series? Although it probably has been improved in the NV10, the technology as such is not new.


That's what I was trying to figure out: just what part os modeled, is it just the sympathetic resonances?
Posted By: kapelli

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 04:54 PM

Wow. It sounds absoletule awesome under the hands of Tony. Ans samples sounds decades ahed of those from the current CA range. Please give the same the next CA series! :)I love that sound.
Posted By: Goss

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by JoBert
Isn't the combination of sampling and modelling (the latter especially for sympathetic resonances) already being used in the current CA and CS series, probably also in other models and/or previous models of these series? Although it probably has been improved in the NV10, the technology as such is not new.


I think the gains in this model are the full grand action, pre amplification processing, amplification and speaker systems - exactly how Kawai is putting it forward.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 06:11 PM

Hello folks, I'm back at the hotel now following another busy day at Musikmesse.

It's always great to speak with visitors and hear their thoughts about new models that have been at the show.

The chap behind Lachnit MIDI controllers stopped by to try the Novus, and share his interesting stories about working at Bosendorfer. Very nice guy!

Tony and Tom from Bonners also visited the booth to shoot some additional video, which I believe is already linked in the thread. They also shot our presentation. Unfortunately, despite my earlier claims that the first presentation was not so good, and that subsequent explanations are now much smoother, I competely seized-up knowing that Bonners' cameras were rolling! It was a bloody mess!
Fortunately, Entani-san's performances were excellent, as always, so viewers can still enjoy some excellent playing (with pretty clear sound), even if the product explanation is embarrassingly poor.

Time to grab dinner.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 06:17 PM

Thank you for your feedback and questions folks. I will try to respond later, however I left my iPad in the Novus booth, and only have net access through my phone.

The forum is not so great for mobile devices, so would prefer to reply properly on the iPad.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: ando

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 07:20 PM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Hello folks, I'm back at the hotel now following another busy day at Musikmesse.

It's always great to speak with visitors and hear their thoughts about new models that have been at the show.

The chap behind Lachnit MIDI controllers stopped by to try the Novus, and share his interesting stories about working at Bosendorfer. Very nice guy!

Tony and Tom from Bonners also visited the booth to shoot some additional video, which I believe is already linked in the thread. They also shot our presentation. Unfortunately, despite my earlier claims that the first presentation was not so good, and that subsequent explanations are now much smoother, I competely seized-up knowing that Bonners' cameras were rolling! It was a bloody mess!
Fortunately, Entani-san's performances were excellent, as always, so viewers can still enjoy some excellent playing (with pretty clear sound), even if the product explanation is embarrassingly poor.

Time to grab dinner.

Cheers,
James
x


Actually I thought your presentation was very good, James. It was very thorough and the pianist you had with you showed the instrument off to good effect. The only problem with the (unauthorised) video was that the camera mike didn't pick up your voice very strongly. Nevertheless, it was enjoyable to watch and it made me very enthusiastic about playing the new Novus. smile
Posted By: 36251

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 07:37 PM

Have I missed the estimated price in any of these threads?
Posted By: Upright

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 07:41 PM

Doesn't "unauthorised" sound a little harsh? wink
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 08:16 PM

Martin, it's true that I did not realise you would put the video on YouTube. However we allow everyone to film in the booth, so in a sense, all videos are somewhat authorised.

Thanks again for coming, and for shooting the video.

Kind regards
James
x


Posted By: Upright

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 08:20 PM

Originally Posted by 36251
Have I missed the estimated price in any of these threads?

Just heard it in a german video. According to the Kawai Europe representative, the target price might be something between 8000 € and 9000 €.
Posted By: Upright

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 08:26 PM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Martin, it's true that I did not realise you would put the video on YouTube. However we allow everyone to film in the booth, so in a sense, all videos are somewhat authorised.

Thanks again for coming, and for shooting the video.

Kind regards
James
x

Thank you for your answer. Maybe it was just good, that you did not think that it might get uploaded. So I could record you both being very relaxed. For me it was a perfect presentation.

Kind regards,
Martin
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 08:39 PM

Yes, that's a good point!
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 08:58 PM

I would've liked for James to have ended the first presentation with something like 'take that, Yamaha,' but I still enjoyed the half-hour video very much, and I'm looking forward to more info on the sampling/modeling part of the instrument, and also how many sounds/patches will be included. I am hoping, as someone suggested, that they include only one -Shigeru- and hopefully give the user many options over sound editing; including note-per-note volume.
Posted By: lolatu

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 09:23 PM

Originally Posted by Upright
Just heard it in a german video. According to the Kawai Europe representative, the target price might be something between 8000 € and 9000 €.

Interesting. For reference, the N1 is currently €6849 and the N2 €11690.

It's a pity that with such expensive hardware there's no mention of any modular way to update the sample sets or sound engine. If I were spending so much on a fine acoustic piano action and Onkyo amplifiers, which will no doubt last a very long time, I'd want some reassurance that its software isn't going to render the machine obsolete much sooner. You might expect an acoustic grand to last 50 or 100 years, but think how dated any digital sounds 10 or 20 years after release - by which time every other DP on the market will have 20 different multi-gigabyte sample sets or super-realistic modelling. I suppose Bluetooth midi and audio could fulfil that role? Maybe they'll design support for external sound engines into the UI so they'll be just as easy to use as the built-in sounds.
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 09:27 PM

In the other thread there was a video posted with an interview with a German Kawai representative, about the NV10. Here are some of the interesting points from that interview that haven't been mentioned here, for our non-German speaking members:

It's to be the first model of a series, more models to come.

Release probably in early October or so in shops.

It will have a sound engine that "we do not have yet, since, you know the instrument is yet to come, in the autumn" (quote).

5.1 inch capacitive touch display with high resolution in the left cheek. Will appear dark/black while not in use.

Subwoofer just above the pedals, behind the fabric that is behind the pedal rods.

Four speakers in the top, two of which are "normal left/right speakers" the other two are for lower sounds.

Plus tweeters behind the slit just above the fallboard, below the top board.

Price isn't fixed yet, but should be somewhere between 8000-9000 €.
Posted By: Tom Fort

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 10:04 PM

So James-

No other Kawai news? The Novus looks great as a halo product, and as a series of instruments it will bring some much-needed competition to the Avantgrands if the prices are low enough.

But, the MP11 and VPC-1 are very long in the tooth...
Posted By: maurus

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 10:06 PM

MP11 and MP7, maybe, since they lack the new Shigeru samples. But VPC1? As fresh as ever... smile
Posted By: slobajudge

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 10:43 PM

Originally Posted by maurus
But VPC1? As fresh as ever... smile

+1. VPC will be young forever smile
Posted By: lolatu

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 10:56 PM

Maybe Kawai will consider producing an co-branded stand for VP1 including Onkyo speakers and amps, and maybe pedals and an audio interface? Just plug in your computer or tablet with a single USB cable and start playing. Then you pretty much have a modular system.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/06/17 11:01 PM

Originally Posted by maurus
MP11 and MP7, maybe, since they lack the new Shigeru samples. But VPC1? As fresh as ever... smile


I think Kawai should just throw up their hands and update everything once a year. They could pull something from the smartphone market and introduce new colors. CA67 Product(RED). CS11 in Rose Gold.

Re. the MP11, it's barely three years old right? Coming due, but not really overdue. I'm wondering if Kawai is intentionally holding off until there's a GF3 action on the furniture models....would an MP12 with specs matching specs cannibalize sales from the CA/CS series? It certainly would in my case, but I don't think I'm typical.
Posted By: f3r

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/07/17 12:40 AM

Very brief video with no talking, showing parts of the guts; some playing; a sneak peek of the UI, Virtual Technician, Bluetooth... and a p*ick, I mean, rude guy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxU2bJ_tFIs
Posted By: Tom Fort

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/07/17 12:47 AM

I don't see why Kawai couldn't introduce their best action, sound engine, and samples at the same time but in different form factors and price points. If they hold back their slab/stage pianos to protect their console pianos, they risk a year or two of slow sales of the slabs while buyers wait for the new technology to trickle down.
Posted By: sullivang

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/07/17 01:14 AM

+1 re Lolatu's comment about updatability. I think it's ridiculous that the A.G can't be updated to get the CFX samples that the NU1 has, for example.

Greg.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/07/17 01:17 AM

Originally Posted by f3r
Very brief video with no talking, showing parts of the guts; some playing; a sneak peak of the UI, Virtual Technician, Bluetooth... and a p*ick, I mean, rude guy.


Well, now I guess we know where James left his iPad!

But seriously, I guess we now know what the UI is going to be on the new CA/CS moving forward. Capacitive touch all the way.
Posted By: fishandchips

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/07/17 02:42 AM

Kawai James Bond. Nice tux, good presentation, and a beautiful piano. Congratulations. I hope it does well. It's exciting to watch the evolution of digital pianos from all the different companies.

Posted By: trigalg693

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/07/17 02:57 AM

Originally Posted by JoBert

It's to be the first model of a series, more models to come.


More models? The NV10 looks fairly basic, if more models means models with big fake grand piano shaped cabinets, that means this is the cheapest one, unless they release a VPC like thing.
Posted By: ElmerJFudd

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/07/17 03:41 AM

Originally Posted by trigalg693
Originally Posted by JoBert

It's to be the first model of a series, more models to come.


More models? The NV10 looks fairly basic, if more models means models with big fake grand piano shaped cabinets, that means this is the cheapest one, unless they release a VPC like thing.


Only if you consider Kawai including the most intricate action they've ever put in a digital piano fairly basic. It is of course what many have been waiting for - an answer to Yamaha's efforts with the Avant Grand which are quite expensive. Let's assume for the moment that this model is their mid-range instrument. There is a possibility of a larger instrument with more extensive amp/speaker system and of course - a base model, like the Yamaha N1 - where you can get your hands on the action for significantly less but no other bells and whistles.
Posted By: pianistje

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/07/17 07:25 AM

I couldn't make it to the Messe after all ( agenda for work was in overload) , but i can only say how impressed i am with this new Kawai.

I really can't believe the 'modest' price, because between this and the N2 or even N3x i know which i want. More ( key lenght) for less !!!
Of course the sound itself and the speaker set up needs personal testing, but so far it is almost to good to be true in every aspect !

Enjoy your stay at the Messe James !!
Posted By: mabraman

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/07/17 07:51 AM

These Kawai guys know how to shake the tree. They've presented two concept models in a row and got our attention with minimum investment smile
As Lolatu and others noted, I still can't see how such a monster would keep (and justify) its value after ten, fifteen years. Too much money for a (future) midi controller.
If its processors and memory are not up to date, it will be dead at birth. Kawai only speaks for sound chips/amplification improvements. If Novus+HIXL means they're using same soundfont I'd be disappointed.
But this prototype doesn't sound HIXL at all.And that bass sustain can't be their goal, it's a joke.
Posted By: Hendrik42

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/07/17 04:02 PM

Did I miss someone pointing at the Novus videos by Bonners Music?
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6ihEVZCc97RfvrzDaXoAHg/videos

(I actually ran into Tony at the Yamaha booth and said thanks for all the nice videos :-)

I was able to attend the first presentation done on day one. Good one James! No glitches :-)

The full key length, I got that from the specs. What I did not get before the presentation is the added value of a real pedal action. You know, where pressing the pedals not just changes the sound, but how they keys behave. And that is a first. If that is going to cost less than 10kEUR then I think Yamaha is going to have a hard time.

Also, it sounded like the final product will have something beyond HI-XL as it is currently in CA/CS models.

The pianist playing, she was certainly able to get a sound out of it that was extremely impressive.

So Kawai is stepping up the game here, clearly.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/07/17 04:06 PM

What I want to know is if the entire keybed shifts to the right a few mm when you hit the una corda smile
Posted By: Morodiene

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/07/17 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
What I want to know is if the entire keybed shifts to the right a few mm when you hit the una corda smile
probably not, but if you can time it so you can shift your body slightly to the left as you press the una corda, I bet it would have the same effect. :P
Posted By: brooster

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/07/17 06:41 PM

The Novus NV10 had too much reverb! It's hard to tell much with too too much much reverb...
Posted By: upbeat

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/07/17 08:20 PM

Originally Posted by brooster
The Novus NV10 had too much reverb! It's hard to tell much with too too much much reverb...


To me, this is a thing to address with DPs. I've always had DPs to practice at home, and every time I sit in front of an acoustic grand piano, I find I need quite some time to get used to (not even going to say master) the natural resonance of the instrument. In my opinion, in a product like this, which is supposed to mimic a real grand, there should be some research put into replicating the resonance, and it should be a fixed value. Let the room provide any reverb, as it would happen with any other acoustic. I would accept maybe 4 different settings, based a hypothetical lid position.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/07/17 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by upbeat
[In my opinion, in a product like this, which is supposed to mimic a real grand, there should be some research put into replicating the resonance, and it should be a fixed value. Let the room provide any reverb, as it would happen with any other acoustic.


That's probably the ideal, or purist approach. But it does ignore a lot of the benefits a digital instrument provides.

For instance, There's a fairly strong intimation that the NV10 will only have a single SK-EX voice (to be fair Kawai doesn't claim this outright, but IMO they do go out of their way to avoid mentioning the HI-XL sounds in the rest of their portfolio). I only use the default AP voice on ALL of my DPs, so I can't say I'd really miss a selection of pop/jazz/rock pianos, but that's definitely something you could do (and do well) in a DP that's simply impossible in an acoustic.
Posted By: f3r

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/07/17 09:06 PM

I want and need reverb for when I play while using my headphones and when I'm recording. Sure, I could add it later but the reverb forces me to adjust my playing to it. In addition to that, there's no guarantee that the dry recording will sound good with the added reverb and I prefer to skip the extra step.

No reverb while playing through the loudspeaker, of course. Maybe it could be useful if the room sounds too dry? That could be adjusted physically, though.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/07/17 09:57 PM

Originally Posted by mabraman
But this prototype doesn't sound HIXL at all.And that bass sustain can't be their goal, it's a joke.


May I ask you to clarify what you mean, please?
Which video/piece are you referring to specifically?

Thank you in advance.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/07/17 10:02 PM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
There's a fairly strong intimation that the NV10 will only have a single SK-EX voice...


The NV10 will feature a good selection of instrument sounds, just like all Kawai DPs.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/07/17 10:38 PM

Originally Posted by Kawai James

The NV10 will feature a good selection of instrument sounds, just like all Kawai DPs.


Thanks for the timely correction James. I was reading more into it than I should have.
Posted By: sullivang

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/07/17 10:58 PM

Oh yeah - re the bass sustain - strange comment. I thought it sounded absolutely fine!

Greg.
Posted By: Hendrik42

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/08/17 08:39 AM

The massive bass sustain in the first piece was, I think, completely intentional by the pianist. I was in the room: she hit the b or d1 flat with her fist(!), not a finger, and I think she fixed its damper with the middle pedal, you know?

Make no mistake, with right pedal or middle pedal down the bass does goes on forever (as in the real (SK-) EX), but with the right pedal down, everything else would, too, and it would be a mess really fast.

I could not see the feet of the pianist clearly, of course, but she was using both at times.

In fact, I was thinking: once you're that good it probably does not matter that much anymore how good the instrument is, you can trick them all into beauty ;-)

PS. James, you need to compliment her on the retention of her German: excellent.
Posted By: MRC

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/08/17 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by lolatu
It's a pity that with such expensive hardware there's no mention of any modular way to update the sample sets or sound engine. If I were spending so much on a fine acoustic piano action and Onkyo amplifiers, which will no doubt last a very long time, I'd want some reassurance that its software isn't going to render the machine obsolete much sooner.

+1 from me as well. There's money to be made here. The action and the speakers will be good for decades: design the sound engine as a replaceable module, keep bringing out improved versions and sell them to all the people who won't shell out thousands of euros/dollars to replace the whole instrument but will certainly be willing to pay hundreds for better samples or more realistic modelling.

In any case, bravo Kawai for this very exciting instrument!
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/08/17 10:35 AM

^ +1
Posted By: Grandman

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/08/17 10:37 AM

Hate to break the news to you, but there's not much money in bringing out new software. The percentage of people who would actually bother upgrading their software engine is still relatively small. Remember, the people on this forum are enthusiasts who would desire such a feature and we are still a relatively small number on the grand scheme of things. Like the avant grand, the novus will still be relevant to a niche market.
Posted By: Pianoperformance

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/08/17 11:25 AM

Just one comment: anyone interested in buying lightly used and fairly new Kawai cs11 later this year 😝
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/08/17 01:44 PM

Agreed, when I first saw that strike I actually tried the same on my DP. Yeah it's more velocity than I can typically achieve with my left pinkie and results in quite the long sustain (over a minute if you just let it ring out) smile
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/08/17 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by lolatu
It's a pity that with such expensive hardware there's no mention of any modular way to update the sample sets or sound engine.


How about MIDI out and multi channel line in? I don't know how feasible is replace the sound engine wholesale, but I also can't imagine it would be a huge market. Making it easy to use existing software pianos and take advantage of the speaker setup though, gets you even more imho!
Posted By: Goss

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/08/17 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by MRC
Originally Posted by lolatu
It's a pity that with such expensive hardware there's no mention of any modular way to update the sample sets or sound engine. If I were spending so much on a fine acoustic piano action and Onkyo amplifiers, which will no doubt last a very long time, I'd want some reassurance that its software isn't going to render the machine obsolete much sooner.

+1 from me as well. There's money to be made here. The action and the speakers will be good for decades: design the sound engine as a replaceable module, keep bringing out improved versions and sell them to all the people who won't shell out thousands of euros/dollars to replace the whole instrument but will certainly be willing to pay hundreds for better samples or more realistic modelling.

In any case, bravo Kawai for this very exciting instrument!


Indeed - and it need not be just software - integrating a new soundengine box should not be rocket science..
If I bought something like this NV10 for the price I heard from the German Kawai rep at around 8500€ it would be a big plus..
If Kawai and others do not investigate such revenue streams it is their loss - Pianoteq and Garritan and such are happy to pick up the slack it appears.
Posted By: Morodiene

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/08/17 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
Agreed, when I first saw that strike I actually tried the same on my DP. Yeah it's more velocity than I can typically achieve with my left pinkie and results in quite the long sustain (over a minute if you just let it ring out) smile
I noticed that as well. I have seen in a commentary for Chopin's Prelude No. 24, I believe, that one should use 3 or even 4 fingers on the final low D's. Of course, you can't do a fist on the white keys and hope to only hit one, but you can on the black, so it's not completely unheard of and a wise choice, on her part. smile
Posted By: Alexander Borro

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/08/17 03:02 PM

Nice presentation James, looks like a very impressive instrument. A very nice selection of pieces by the pianist to show it off. thumb

Originally Posted by Morodiene
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Agreed, when I first saw that strike I actually tried the same on my DP. Yeah it's more velocity than I can typically achieve with my left pinkie and results in quite the long sustain (over a minute if you just let it ring out) smile
I noticed that as well. I have seen in a commentary for Chopin's Prelude No. 24, I believe, that one should use 3 or even 4 fingers on the final low D's. Of course, you can't do a fist on the white keys and hope to only hit one, but you can on the black, so it's not completely unheard of and a wise choice, on her part. smile


Quite amazing some of the tricks concert pianist use to get the desired result with least amount of effort, speaking of which, it reminds me of that great piano concerto by Einojuhani Rautavaara

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFIGoB7rK70

When I saw the score I wondered how that would be played. eek One version can be seen here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LMfDtQT2L0
Posted By: Grandman

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/08/17 06:34 PM

Originally Posted by Goss
Originally Posted by MRC
Originally Posted by lolatu
It's a pity that with such expensive hardware there's no mention of any modular way to update the sample sets or sound engine. If I were spending so much on a fine acoustic piano action and Onkyo amplifiers, which will no doubt last a very long time, I'd want some reassurance that its software isn't going to render the machine obsolete much sooner.

+1 from me as well. There's money to be made here. The action and the speakers will be good for decades: design the sound engine as a replaceable module, keep bringing out improved versions and sell them to all the people who won't shell out thousands of euros/dollars to replace the whole instrument but will certainly be willing to pay hundreds for better samples or more realistic modelling.

In any case, bravo Kawai for this very exciting instrument!


Indeed - and it need not be just software - integrating a new soundengine box should not be rocket science..
If I bought something like this NV10 for the price I heard from the German Kawai rep at around 8500€ it would be a big plus..
If Kawai and others do not investigate such revenue streams it is their loss - Pianoteq and Garritan and such are happy to pick up the slack it appears.


Pianoteq and Garritan have a much larger potential market as their software is compatible with any midi keyboard setup. The novus would only be beneficial to novus owners, which will be a much smaller market, especially given the price. Think avant grand market. At that price, you are competing against acoustic pianos.
Posted By: brooster

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/08/17 08:18 PM

Originally Posted by MRC
Originally Posted by lolatu
It's a pity that with such expensive hardware there's no mention of any modular way to update the sample sets or sound engine. If I were spending so much on a fine acoustic piano action and Onkyo amplifiers, which will no doubt last a very long time, I'd want some reassurance that its software isn't going to render the machine obsolete much sooner.

+1 from me as well. There's money to be made here. The action and the speakers will be good for decades: design the sound engine as a replaceable module, keep bringing out improved versions and sell them to all the people who won't shell out thousands of euros/dollars to replace the whole instrument but will certainly be willing to pay hundreds for better samples or more realistic modelling.

In any case, bravo Kawai for this very exciting instrument!


VOILA'! -> Pianoteq
Posted By: jokke

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/08/17 08:30 PM

What a great announcement. I was just today trying out acoustic pianos (Kawai K-300 ATX2 and K-600, and Yamaha U1, U3, YUS1 and YUS5) and the AvantGard N1 I tried last after the acoustics actually felt the best. Seems like I need to postpone any hasty investments and see how this one turns out.

One thing I really hope is they include a proper RCA line in jacks, the 3.5mm on my CS11 is just a bit flimsy, with its 3mm volume knob. Doesn't invite using Pianoteq at all. With this Novus, I'd expect starting to use Pianoteq 10 or something similar by 2020 at the latest...
Posted By: lolatu

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/08/17 09:06 PM

Originally Posted by jokke
One thing I really hope is they include a proper RCA line in jacks, the 3.5mm on my CS11 is just a bit flimsy, with its 3mm volume knob. Doesn't invite using Pianoteq at all. With this Novus, I'd expect starting to use Pianoteq 10 or something similar by 2020 at the latest...

It seems to be the way these days... even the "pro-grade" equipment like the RD-2000 only has a 3.5mm input, despite having 4 full size plus 2 XLR outputs. However at least RD-2000 has audio over USB so you wouldn't need to use the 3.5mm input for Pianoteq. Maybe the Novus will have this too? It would be a first for Kawai if it does.

The previous models (CS10, CA95, MP11), incidentally, do have full size line-ins.
Posted By: ElmerJFudd

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/08/17 10:37 PM

No doubt this is related to the fact that phones, tablets, laptops, and desktops (which are on the way out in consumer use) all have 3.5mm out. As Bluetooth audio becomes the consumer standard, look for no 3.5mm aux input at all. It's more the serious hobbyist, semi pro and pro folks that choose an audio interface with professional connectors like balanced TRS L and R.

But I agree, 3.5mm is dainty, and as they make these inputs typically very cheaply with plastic ring around the input... they tend not to last forever if you really do need to connect disconnect all the time.
Posted By: mabraman

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/09/17 11:03 PM

I meant what I said. Bass sustain sounds static, and the sound of this new piano doesn't seem to be hi-xl, to my ears . Am I wrong?
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by mabraman
But this prototype doesn't sound HIXL at all.And that bass sustain can't be their goal, it's a joke.


May I ask you to clarify what you mean, please?
Which video/piece are you referring to specifically?

Thank you in advance.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: ElmerJFudd

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/09/17 11:24 PM

When they say the sound engine for the NOVUS isn't finished yet, I wonder what that implies.
Maybe they haven't finished the sample set that will be included?

Can't find it now, but someone had posted what I thought was a picture of the NOVUS mainboard. It didn't look like they had done anything really cool like add enough flash storage for a multigigabyte sample library to compete with software pianos. But I could be wrong - can't get a look at the chips until we find the pic again.
Posted By: f3r

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/09/17 11:59 PM

Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
Can't find it now, but someone had posted what I thought was a picture of the NOVUS mainboard.
I've seen no pics but I did post a video on page 6.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/10/17 04:23 AM

Originally Posted by mabraman
I meant what I said. Bass sustain sounds static, and the sound of this new piano doesn't seem to be hi-xl, to my ears . Am I wrong?


Yes.

The sound used by the Novus NV10 prototype previewed at Musikmesse was definitely HI-XL. However, this will be improved by the time the instrument is officially announced and released later in the year.

Kind regards
James
x
Posted By: mabraman

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/10/17 08:37 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by mabraman
I meant what I said. Bass sustain sounds static, and the sound of this new piano doesn't seem to be hi-xl, to my ears . Am I wrong?


Yes.

The sound used by the Novus NV10 prototype previewed at Musikmesse was definitely HI-XL. However, this will be improved by the time the instrument is officially announced and released later in the year.

Kind regards
James
x

Then, you did a good job with this model, because it doesn't have some of the limitations of former ones. It sounds better overall(that's what I really meant to say)except for the looped cue. It's hard to believe that, in the demo, Novus is runnig the same default engine than a CA. There has to be something else, it has been tweaked some way. It's not "just" the new sound system. That's what my ears say, and I trust them.
Posted By: mabraman

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/10/17 09:18 AM

And to be honest, in Bonner's video it does sound like a CA smile
So the conclusions are that the pianist in the longer video is able to take that engine to its full potential, and that it sounds more natural through speakers.
Could you share the settings used for the presentation?
Posted By: Dutch Dhamma

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/10/17 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by mabraman
It's hard to believe that, in the demo, Novus is runnig the same default engine than a CA. There has to be something else, it has been tweaked some way. It's not "just" the new sound system. That's what my ears say, and I trust them.

I agree with this observation. To my ears the sound signature of the Novus is totally different (Bonners clip) then what I am used of with the CA series. Much better, more pronounced and mature. Can't wait for the release of this new series and try them myself.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/10/17 09:31 AM

Originally Posted by mabraman
Novus is runnig the same default engine than a CA.


For the Musikmesse preview, yes.
We of course wanted the new piano engine to be ready for the preview, but it simply wasn't possible, unfortunately.

Originally Posted by mabraman
There has to be something else, it has been tweaked some way. It's not "just" the new sound system. That's what my ears say, and I trust them.


Please consider the following audio upgrades present in the Novus:
- 1-bit processing
- Premium DACs (x2)
- Onkyo DIDRC filter
- Onkyo Spectra Module (for headphones)
- Onkyo power amps (for speakers)

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Bambers

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/10/17 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by Dutch Dhamma
I agree with this observation. To my ears the sound signature of the Novus is totally different (Bonners clip) then what I am used of with the CA series. Much better, more pronounced and mature. Can't wait for the release of this new series and try them myself.


Which CA series? The x5 series just had the Kawai EX concert grand while the x7 added the Shigeru SK-EX and SK-5. The SK-EX sample set that was playing on the novus does sound considerably different (rounded, bit more mellow and less tinny to me) to the regular EX set.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/10/17 10:26 AM

Ah, good point.

Only the SK-EX sound was used in the Novus presentation.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: mabraman

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/10/17 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by Bambers
Originally Posted by Dutch Dhamma
I agree with this observation. To my ears the sound signature of the Novus is totally different (Bonners clip) then what I am used of with the CA series. Much better, more pronounced and mature. Can't wait for the release of this new series and try them myself.


Which CA series? The x5 series just had the Kawai EX concert grand while the x7 added the Shigeru SK-EX and SK-5. The SK-EX sample set that was playing on the novus does sound considerably different (rounded, bit more mellow and less tinny to me) to the regular EX set.


CAx7
But What I said is just for the official presentation, through speakers. And of course it's just an oppinion.
Posted By: lolatu

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/10/17 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by Dutch Dhamma
Yamaha AvantGrand N2

Must be nice wink
Posted By: ElmerJFudd

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/10/17 01:25 PM

DA and amplification/speaker improvements most certainly are welcome and play as big a part in our ability to perceive the quality of this instrument - more so even than the sampling work and hi xl resolution in some ways. Can't wait to take NOVUS for a drive.
Posted By: Tom Fort

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/10/17 03:47 PM

Agreed, but it's nice to hear that Kawai is also going to be pushing the internal piano engine technology forward with the Novus as well. It seemed mildly disappointing that they were doing so much with the action and amplification, but leaving the piano tone generation the same. I think HI-XL has been out for a few years, but Kawai relatively recently added the SK-EX samples? Seems proper that they should take the next step with their latest/greatest digital piano.

Computer memory is quite cheap nowadays, so adding even longer samples (HI-XXL?) and more dynamic layers ought to be possible every couple of years. I suspect that what holds the digital piano manufacturers from advancing the technology that rapidly is the processors and bandwidth technology for processing and moving those samples around aren't advancing as quickly, otherwise we would have digital pianos with SSDs in them capable of holding the largest software pianos.

It seems to me that updating the piano engine in an expensive digital piano to make it a better long-term investment will ultimately involve outsourcing that brain to cell phones and tablets as cell phone processor and memory technology are advancing at such an incredible rate. The VPC-1 does this now to a computer, but smaller, lighter and easier to use (i.e. phones) almost always wins out over bigger, heavier, and more complex (computers).

James- are the optical sensors used in the Novus the same as those in the Anytime hybrid pianos?
Posted By: Hendrik42

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/10/17 04:05 PM

Where is actually the on-switch? What is hard to see in the pictures is how good the display fits into the left side. Flush with the cabinet. When the display is off, it is quite black. On the right side there was nothing (that I could see).

I was looking at the CS11 recently (the wife says the next one must be more representative :-) and while it looks a lot more piano-like than e.g. the LX-17, I hope that Kawai gets rid of: power on button, volume button and the red light.
Posted By: Frédéric L

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/10/17 04:15 PM

We have already some synthesizers which have piano unlooped samples. It is the case for the Korg Krome (1000€) which has 3.8GB of storage, 2.8GB are used for the piano.

Then perhaps this kind of technology will be used in digital pianos. (In 10 years ?)

But I don't know how much time it takes to select such a piano on the Krome.
Posted By: Dutch Dhamma

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/10/17 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by lolatu
Originally Posted by Dutch Dhamma
Yamaha AvantGrand N2

Must be nice wink

Yes, it is! And I’ am very happy with it. In fact since I have the N2 'the GAS has evaporated'. I feel like a spoiled kid with my N2; so the Novus must be something very special to make me consider buying it.

But somehow I feel sympathy for Kawai and its instruments. Maybe echo’s off an overall good experience with their CA 95 and customer service. And I like the fact they took up the challenge to develop something that might compete or maybe even better than the AvantGrand line. Who knows, maybe at the time I can try one, I find there’s still some GAS left smile
Posted By: ClsscLib

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/10/17 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by Dutch Dhamma
Originally Posted by lolatu
Originally Posted by Dutch Dhamma
Yamaha AvantGrand N2

Must be nice wink

Yes, it is! And I’ am very happy with it. In fact since I have the N2 'the GAS has evaporated'. I feel like a spoiled kid with my N2; so the Novus must be something very special to make me consider buying it.

But somehow I feel sympathy for Kawai and its instruments. Maybe echo’s off an overall good experience with their CA 95 and customer service. And I like the fact they took up the challenge to develop something that might compete or maybe even better than the AvantGrand line. Who knows, maybe at the time I can try one, I find there’s still some GAS left smile


I can quit anytime I want.
Posted By: EssBrace

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/10/17 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by ClsscLib
I can quit anytime I want.


Me too. And anyway I can go a whole month without buying a piano. So that proves I don't have a problem.
Posted By: ClsscLib

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/10/17 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by ClsscLib
I can quit anytime I want.


Me too. And anyway I can go a whole month without buying a piano. So that proves I don't have a problem.


I've sworn it off.

The new GO-Piano looks interesting, though. It doesn't count because it only has 61 keys.
Posted By: sullivang

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/10/17 11:13 PM

Listening to that demo online, with our own lousy converters, amps, and speakers/headphones etc, and YouTube lossy compression , the only relevant Onkyo stuff is probably the speakers. Much more important is the recording device, it's position, the room acoustics, and the sample engine. The Onkyo "spectra module" is clearly completely out of the picture in this case because it's only related to the headphone output. (still waiting to learn what the heck it does - intriguing!)

Mabraman: re the bass sustain, I initially thought you were referring to the sustain length, but it appears that you are referring to the lack of timbral variation as it decays. I agree that it doesn't vary all that much, but I've noticed that even long samples in sample libraries don't always have a lot of variation. I've taken another listen to the Novus and FWIW it sounds pretty good to me.

Greg.
Posted By: mabraman

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/11/17 07:43 AM

Originally Posted by sullivang


Mabraman: re the bass sustain, I initially thought you were referring to the sustain length, but it appears that you are referring to the lack of timbral variation as it decays. I agree that it doesn't vary all that much, but I've noticed that even long samples in sample libraries don't always have a lot of variation. I've taken another listen to the Novus and FWIW it sounds pretty good to me.

Greg.


Yes, I was talking about a static decay, but I used the word 'sustain' instead.
When I said bass is a 'joke' I didn't mean to be too hard but, given the estimated selling price, and how other registers sound, in the same piano, and the lack of information (we were said HI-XL was going to be 'the engine')...it seemed accurate to me.

Now Kawai has a golden opportunity to do something really good, once more. They aim high, or so they pretend. Scores choosed in the presentation were very (too much?) demanding on the engine. HI-XL can hardly cope with it if your target is a classical musician, even if amateur.
Posted By: lolatu

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/11/17 10:04 AM

Someone remind me what's supposedly wrong with HI-XL again? A name change isn't going to do a lot.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/11/17 11:03 AM

Nothing wrong per se, but it's a looped sound. Compared to the most popular software libraries this makes a really big difference.
Posted By: mabraman

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/11/17 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Nothing wrong per se, but it's a looped sound. Compared to the most popular software libraries this makes a really big difference.

And for the price of a k500+ATX2, perhaps this upright is a little more expensive (10k €).
Posted By: Morodiene

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/11/17 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by mabraman
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Nothing wrong per se, but it's a looped sound. Compared to the most popular software libraries this makes a really big difference.

And for the price of a k500+ATX2, perhaps this upright is a little more expensive (10k €).
Well, to be fair, one should compare apples to apples. We all know that software can beat most firmware piano sounds right now.

Since it's been cleared up that the actual sound of the Novus will be different (and one must assume with improvements made to it, otherwise why bother), then there's no point in criticizing it for having an un-improved sound from previous Kawai DPs.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/11/17 02:08 PM

Plus, I'd like to know how it compares to the AG sounds, both the current N1/N2 and the N3X. Kawai has always stepped up to the plate with hardware sample improvements (88 key sampling, good quality loops and layer blends) so I'm inclined to give them some runway here.
Posted By: Bambers

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/11/17 02:46 PM

That's a fair point. My understanding from the DPBSD thread is that AG samples are of a similar size to the current Kawai HI-XL sets. i.e. around 4-5s attack in the bass and then fairly short sub second loop samples that tend to make the actual looping less audible at the sacrifice of an overly static sound during the fade.

The Kawai engine in the CAx7 is more advanced as far as the resonances etc go though. From the info on the novus so far it's specifically this element that will be improved further, will be interesting to see exactly what that entails and if it will mean the elimination of audible looping.
Posted By: ElmerJFudd

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/11/17 08:04 PM

Or you do what forumite Philip Johnson does and play Garritan CFX with your AG N3. wink

This is of course what a lot of MP11 and VPC-1 owners are doing.

Which begs the question...

Which manufacturer will be the first to pair the most top modern sample liberties and sound engine techniques with an acoustic grand action and amplification that rivals the acoustic alternative. If they build it, we will come. But can they meet the price point yet?
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/11/17 09:17 PM

It seems like Philip did not get very good results (in terms of sound quality) when routing his virtual piano through the on-board speakers. He preferred using external monitors. Many others have reported similar results. This applies to all brands, not just Yamaha.

Could this be due to the fact that the line-in signal does not get the same premier treatment (in terms of sound processing) as the on-board sound/sample?

With the Novus, it seems like Kawai is taking things to another level with regard to sound processing by partnering with Onkyo, but I wonder if this will extend to signals running through the line-in (aux-in).

Even if the sound set in the Novus turns out to be great, I'm certain that users will still want to run virtual instruments through its high-quality sound system and still be able to get similar sonic results as with the on-board sound.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/11/17 09:42 PM

Pete, I think that is definitely the case. The AG3 uses multi channel samples from microphones in at least three separate locations on the sampled piano, and these are output to speakers placed in the corresponding positions on the AG3 frame.

I imagine a standard 2 channel line out just sends the same output to all speakers, with a freq cutoff.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/11/17 10:04 PM

So the results will never be optimal for this kind of set-up, I suppose.

We're stuck with monitors, or subpar sound through on-board speakers.
Posted By: Frédéric L

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/11/17 10:08 PM

On the information we have, we can read "dual DACs". Isn't dual synonymous of stereo ? Or it just mean they use some 2 channels DACs like the AK4490 used by other Onkyo product, but use many of them to produce more than 2 channels.

Then the "dual" term doesn't inform me about the quality of the product.
Posted By: ando

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/11/17 11:52 PM

Actually I would be expecting the input audio on the new NOVUS to sound very nice. If people are going to use a concerto recording in order to practice the piano part, the input audio would have to be full range and high quality. Even though James' presentation showed this scenario being used with a set of additional speakers, I think this was for extra volume in a performance setting. I think the internal speakers are two channel, high quality with internal crossovers. I don't expect any oddities like noise gates or frequency cutoff like the AGs have. I'm sure James will confirm this. I expect the NV10 will be suitable for piping in any external sound source/VSTi
Posted By: mabraman

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/12/17 08:26 AM

Pure speculation smile But AGs and other digital grands/hi level consoles, had to optimize the sound for piano playing of their own samples, giving a realistic impression.
I'm afraid it's very difficult to set it up for every possible situation.

Posted By: Goss

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/12/17 08:38 AM

the speakers were used only with the musical accompaniment Ando - the piano playing was all through the nv10's own speakers.

As for optimizing on native speaker systems..pianoteq has mic placement tweaking - if you know the profile of the kawai, you could match teq to suit the system..
Posted By: Frédéric L

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/12/17 08:52 AM

Yes, Pianoteq may place up to 5 microphones, but if the NV10 or AG have only a stereo line input, You will not be able to tune each speakers independently.
Posted By: Goss

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/12/17 11:19 AM

True =/ Forgot about that. While the various amps and speakersets are pretty clearly layed out in our Roland, tapping the different speakers independantly would require a secondary dsp unit with a switch in between.. not something I'd venture into without some serious help.
Posted By: Frédéric L

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/12/17 02:25 PM

Don't worry, your PC could act as the DSP, you may have to tune some EQ in order to drive each different speakers (with Reaper, you may even script your own filters with the formulaes of each samples and you even have some functional examples to tweak).

If you are lucky, you will find just at the front of each amplifier, a mixer with a signal from the tone generator and the signal from a filtered line-in. You just have to replace the last one by a direct input from your sound card, perhaps some op-amp to avoid impedance mismatch. That's it. smile
Posted By: f3r

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/12/17 05:23 PM

Performance videos of Ayano Entani on the NV10
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJ8wx0oYkag



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVR1n6m0-VE
Posted By: mcoll

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/20/17 06:07 PM

Count me among the people who would expect a great quality line in on such an exceptional instrument.
That may be used for VSTs in some cases but it would definitely get serious usage for accompaniment playback and for practicing concertos.
Maybe a monitor-quality experience would be a bit wishful, but at this price point, if it would be much worse, it would be a big deterrent for a purchase.

PS. I have followed the thread with great interest and want to congratulate Kawai. I hope they will make the right decisions and have a great final product.
Posted By: lucky luke

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/26/17 08:52 AM

There is a online shop offering this instrument for CHF 9500:

http://www.musikhug-shop.ch/specials/klaviere-fluegel/digitalpianos.html

So the price seems to be between Yamaha's N1 and N2.

And according to the shop it is "sofort lieferbar" meaning "immediately available / deliverable"...

@Kawai James: so NV10 is already being sold?
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/26/17 01:14 PM

I'm also sofort lieferbar, but I warn you, I come with a lot of baggage (batteries not included). grin

Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/27/17 12:17 AM

Originally Posted by lucky luke
@Kawai James: so NV10 is already being sold?


No, not yet. The NV10 will be officially announced (with pricing and full specification details) later in the year.

As with a number of other online stores, I expect the product page on this Swiss dealer's website is simply a placeholder, intended to gain a foothold on Google's PageRank algorithm.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: lophiomys

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/27/17 10:43 AM

A new kind of "fake news", ... to please the Google Search Algorithm?
SCNR
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/27/17 03:41 PM

I was just sitting around thinking this morning, one really compelling feature would be a per-speaker (or at least >stereo) line-in. I think there are enough people who buy an AvantGrand in order to get a premier action, and then run a VST, only to be able to route the output back in stereo (or be forced to use external amplification. Seems like a limitation the NV10 could help solve.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/27/17 04:08 PM

Do you mean a line-in per channel?

The AvantGrand uses 4 channels; if the Novus uses 4 as well, then that would necessitate 4 ins (one per channel) for our little scheme to work?

Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/27/17 04:19 PM

Yeah, I think so Pete. >2 channels for internal audio, and external line-in access to each channel.

I can easily see VSTs supporting this, and even setting up sampling sessions for Novus configuration.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/27/17 04:40 PM

Pianoteq can do up to 5 channels.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/27/17 04:47 PM

Right, and being able to plug those channels right back into an AG or Novus would be wonders in allowing the instrument to showcase its best abilities. It's a shame that the N3X has four internal channels but just a stereo input jack.
Posted By: Hendrik42

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 04/27/17 07:04 PM

I agree with better input interfaces so that a PC/Mac/Tablet could drive multiple speakers in a meaningful way. I sometimes test VST through the line in of my CN35 and clearly the software can not work with the four speakers as well as the build-in sound engine. It only sounds good with headphones.
Posted By: PianoGuyStuart

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 05/02/17 02:33 PM

Another placeholder one here (presumably for the benefit of Google) - http://www.bonnersmusic.co.uk/kawai-novus-nv10-hybrid-digital-piano.ir

Be interested to hear this one next to the Avantgrand N2 - https://uk.yamaha.com/en/products/musical_instruments/pianos/avantgrand/n2/index.html

From what I can see these two are in direct competition.

Not sure what prices are though on the two?

And also isn't the N2 due to be upgraded anyway soon?

Posted By: Gérard

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 05/19/17 02:17 PM

Hello,

I followed with great attention the presentation NV10 of April 5 thanks to Youtube and this Forum, I found Ayato Entani excellent and the presentation of Kawai James super :-) I also ordered the score of Musica Nara from Minako Tokuyama in Japan, thanks for this discovery! And thank you to all those who posted messages about Novus.

Would those who actually tried the NV10 tell us how they found the touch of the keyboard? Do we really find the sensations of the acoustic piano? How is the coating of the keys in NEOTEX as the acoustic range?

I noticed in the demonstrations that the pianists arrived to make pianissimo what is cool and really important, how did you find the dynamic response of this keyboard between the ppp and the fff?

Until today, I have always been disappointed by the digital even by the N3 or I miss something in the sensations of the keyboard ... in 2009 after the disappointment of the N3, I bought a C1Silent, I Had a mp8 1st version that I enjoyed as well as many other digital piano Yamaha Roland and Kawai ... Since I have sold everything and I look forward and hope the Novus ... if I like the touch, I will buy :-)
Posted By: ID5894

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 05/20/17 09:35 AM

So correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this "hybrid" piano thing just a massively overpriced 100% digital piano that it's actually much cheaper to manufacture, less durable and much faster depreciating than an acoustic?
Posted By: Frédéric L

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 05/20/17 09:57 AM

I suppose that people who buy hybrid pianos have good reasons to buy them instead of an acoustic. I plan to buy one because I use my piano only with headphones, the hybrid piano would be more adequate. If I choose a Silent, the nearest system would be a Yamaha Silent SH : it would cost me more than the hybrid, and would bring me an upright action instead of a grand action.

As a buyer, I don't really care of the piano maker cost to manufacture. What matters is to choose the best things (best defined according to my specific needs) for my money.

I don't care really of the depreciation : if I buy one, I plan to use it, and would keep it until it brokes and can't be repaired. With an hybrid, I don't think I would be tempted by a better keyboard, and I can always upgrade the sound with virtual pianos (as I do nowadays). The durability is however an issue. (I suppose I would have similar issue with a Silent acoustic).
Posted By: Dave Horne

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 05/20/17 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by ID5894
So correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this "hybrid" piano thing just a massively overpriced 100% digital piano that it's actually much cheaper to manufacture, less durable and much faster depreciating than an acoustic?


I'm almost 67, have tinnitus, and neighbors on both sides. I bought my first hybrid more than 15 years ago, the GranTouch by Yamaha.

I traded in my Yamaha C3, a six footer or so, for that GranTouch. I did everything I could to dampen down the sound of the C3. I had towels stuffed in the soundboard, I had strips of felt between the piano lid and the body, I had the hammers softened ... and still the piano was too loud for me (and I also lived in a free standing house then).

I don't care if a hybrid depreciates faster, it's a perfect instrument for me. It's also a great instrument for restaurants and theaters since the piano never needs to be tuned and can be easily amplified. It is what it is.

I only wish a hybrid would have been introduced earlier in my life.
Posted By: R_B

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 05/20/17 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by ID5894
So correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this "hybrid" piano thing just a massively overpriced 100% digital piano that it's actually much cheaper to manufacture, less durable and much faster depreciating than an acoustic?


It may well be 100% "digital" - so what ?
It is almost certainly lower cost to produce and therefore to buy than a wooden piano - again, so what ? (other than as with ALL electronic pianos lower price makes it more accessible).

As to faster depreciating; Sure, a Rolls Royce may well depreciate more slowly as a percentage per year than a Ford, but in actual MONEY per year it loses a LOT more than the Ford.

The other attributes still stand, i.e. apart from key bed sounds the hybrids are just about silent and have an action that closely resembles that of a wooden piano.

BTW, they ALL make sound - some with vibrating boards of wood and stretched metal - some with speaker cones - ergo they are ALL "acoustic" laugh
Posted By: Gérard

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 05/20/17 11:00 AM

I chosed to buy an hybrid because a grand acoustic piano sounds too loud at home and also because I want to be able to use the midi with my computer to record with Ivory II or perhaps the Novus Shigueru sampling ... What is very Important for me is to have a true impression of a piano with a majestic design pleasant to look like a real grand piano. I think the price of the Novus perfectly justified because it has a lot of technology inside, a great amplification and the Millennium III action hybrid with real grand piano damper mechanism. I would love to have feedback on the keyboard touch by people who have tried the Novus :-)
Posted By: spanishbuddha

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 05/20/17 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by ID5894
So correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this "hybrid" piano thing just a massively overpriced 100% digital piano that it's actually much cheaper to manufacture, less durable and much faster depreciating than an acoustic?

I'm a hybrid user, and fan I suppose. As others have pointed out there are valid reasons for owning one versus an acoustic, especially in the UK since I see you are in the UK too. They have other advantages not mentioned, including the low maintenance and expansion via midi. However I agree they appear overpriced, my comparison point is the desirable hybrid N2 and the equally or more desirable K500.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 05/22/17 04:52 AM

Hello Gérard,

Originally Posted by Gérard
I followed with great attention the presentation NV10 of April 5 thanks to Youtube and this Forum, I found Ayato Entani excellent and the presentation of Kawai James super :-) I also ordered the score of Musica Nara from Minako Tokuyama in Japan, thanks for this discovery!


Thank you very much for your kind words and positive feedback. I shall pass-on your compliments to everyone who worked on the Novus Musikmesse preview, including our excellent pianist, Ayano (not Ayato, as some videos incorrectly wrote) Entani. Indeed, Entani-san selected the opening piece 'Musica Nara' specifically for this preview performance. wink

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: lucky luke

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 06/06/17 12:39 PM

Hi Kawai James,

do you know if there will also be a soft pedal mechanism in NV10?
Meaning that the keyboard moves slightly to left when the soft pedal is pressed.

In the YouTube Video I see the damper mechanism (when pressing the sustain pedal), which is great smile

thanks
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 06/06/17 01:24 PM

There's no need for the keyboard to move a little to the left in order to strike two (out of three) non-existing strings.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 06/06/17 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14
There's no need for the keyboard to move a little to the left in order to strike two (out of three) non-existing strings.


Well that's a can of worms that ends with all DPs using synth actions wink Maybe we shouldn't go there.

But I asked the same question earlier in the thread about soft pedal movement, and the word from James was no, the keyboard doesn't shift when the soft pedal is depressed. I think I will survive despite that gargantuan oversight smile
Posted By: lucky luke

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 06/06/17 02:03 PM

thanks Gombessa!

@Pete14: the movement of keyboard is to imitate a real AG. I know that there are no strings in a DP. But still NV10 has hammer shank, hammer flange, hammer knuckle, repetition levers, etc. in its action, which you do not need because there is no strings...
Posted By: Frédéric L

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 06/06/17 02:51 PM

The hammer shank, repetition levers, etc are here in order to imitate the feeling of the action more than wat would do a usual digital piano action. Is it worth the complication ? I think so since I have tried a Yamaha N1 and some other high-end digital piano. When a simpler action will match the feeling of a grand piano, I would consider the extra complexity useless.

The right shift of the keyboard would be "nice", but I don't think it would be worth the extra cost. But everyone may have a different opinion.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 06/06/17 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by Pete14
There's no need for the keyboard to move a little to the left in order to strike two (out of three) non-existing strings.


Well that's a can of worms that ends with all DPs using synth actions wink Maybe we shouldn't go there.

But I asked the same question earlier in the thread about soft pedal movement, and the word from James was no, the keyboard doesn't shift when the soft pedal is depressed. I think I will survive despite that gargantuan oversight smile


I suppose the pianist could move a little to the right and achieve a similar effect. It's all about perspective. smile
Posted By: Alexander Borro

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 06/06/17 05:29 PM

Even if it did have such a feature, for it to be worth while (IMO), and go all the way, you'd also need to have the sound engine respond to the various gradations of the una corda.

Even the top VSTs only sample the fully pressed una corda pedal (AFAIK), and usually only at a few velocity levels, so it is on/off at may be 4 - 8 velocity levels, unlike the real thing, where the hammers can be voiced and yield various grades of una corda according to how far the pedal pressed.

Given the limited memory of current hardware instrument and the extra cost it would bring, as well as sampling multiple grades of una corda at various velocity levels, not sure it would be worth the price tag that may possibly bring.

I suppose a combination of some modelling applied to the samples, like applying EQ to muffle the sound more according to the depth of the pedal press might go some way towards achieving the effect, based on a set of samples at one pedal position at various velocities.

It would be cool to have, but only if they go the whole way with it. Just having the mechanism alone without the sound engine making use of it ... not sure ... IMO of course.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 06/06/17 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14

I suppose the pianist could move a little to the right and achieve a similar effect. It's all about perspective. smile


Well, the pianist would have to move a mm to the LEFT, but yeah, that was the same response I got when I first asked the same question smile
Posted By: Frédéric L

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 06/06/17 05:41 PM

Una corda is designed to be used to on/off. If we what to model it continuously, we have to model hammers which are used on less used part of felt, then when hammers hit only 2 strings instead of 3, and I don't know if they will be used once again on a used part. Perhaps modeling just the 2 strings vs 3 strings would be enough.

But here, what was proposed is not a continuous una corda, but a slight shift of the keyboard when we depress the keyboard. I don't think this feature to be very useful.
Posted By: Alexander Borro

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 06/06/17 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Una corda is designed to be used to on/off. If we what to model it continuously, we have to model hammers which are used on less used parts, then when hammers hit only 2 strings instead of 3, and I don't know if they will be used once again on a used part. Perhaps modeling just the 2 strings vs 3 strings would be enough.

But here, what was proposed is not a continuous una corda, but a slight shift of the keyboard when we depress the keyboard. I don't think this feature to be very useful.



The first tried I tried the una corda on an acoustic I was not looking at the keys particularly, I did not even notice it move when I pressed it, it only occurred to me afterwards and realised I never spotted it, but then I did not really look for it either, it is not as if I felt it move as far as I recall. When I returned later an tried some other models again, I looked for it and then spotted it, but it is not much of a shift.

I did notice however on acoustics how it can be heard pressing at various levels and affect tone in a way that digitals do not replicate, that subtle changing you can get depending pedal depth depending how well they are setup/voiced, but also, as you say the 2 versus 3 strings is one of the more important features, which would only apply to a number of keys which have multiple strings but not all keys.
Posted By: Frédéric L

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 06/06/17 06:35 PM

"It is not much of a shift". The una corda should shift the entire action and keyboard on a grand.

However, on an upright, the soft pedal is not really an una corda and just move the hammers closer to the strings.

On 2 strings, the una corda should make the hammer hit 1 string. It should always have an effect. .
Posted By: lucky luke

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 06/06/17 07:04 PM

I asked about the una corda key shift because the NV10 has the feature of key weight reduction when the damper pedal is pressed. For me the key shift is much more perceptible than the key weight reduction. Honestly I never noticed the keys being lighter when I press the sustain pedal on an AG...
Posted By: Frédéric L

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 06/06/17 07:10 PM

Be careful with abbreviations... When I read AG, I understand Avant Grand. I suppose you mean (acoustic) grand.

I am not that sensitive too, I think the weight reduction would not miss me on a Yamaha N1 for instance.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 06/06/17 07:13 PM

I do notice the key weight reduction on an acoustic with damper down, but I wouldn't be able to tell you in a blind test whether the damper is up or down; it's more of a relative thing and is very subtle to me.

Now, I rarely if ever use the una corda pedal so I have no experience to say what I think of the difference in tone or timbre. All I know is I prefer having the subtle damper mechanics over one one I personally never use!
Posted By: peterws

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 06/06/17 07:28 PM

Having read thro' some o' this, I'd be interested in how some of you folk who've had to (reluctantly) evict the acoustic felt about the playability and sound of the hybrid which replaced it. the reason I ask, is that I was playing the Kawai GL10 for a short while before the Roland LX17. And there was no comparison.
NO WAY did the Roland capture the spirit of a real grand, although it was undoubtedly good.
And no way did the grand produce the balanced, pleasant piano sound I would reasonably expect. Even when i stopped playing, it wouldn't shut up . . . . . I'll call it Mr. Bojangles . . .
Posted By: Alexander Borro

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 06/06/17 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by lucky luke
[quote=Frédéric L
"It is not much of a shift". The una corda should shift the entire action and keyboard on a grand.

However, on an upright, the soft pedal is not really an una corda and just move the hammers closer to the strings.


yes I am aware of the different mechanisms, which is why it surprised me I had not spotted it straight away when one is immersed playing, I wasn't looking down at the keys., when I looked down it it was of course quite visible and obvious.

Originally Posted by Frédéric L

On 2 strings, the una corda should make the hammer hit 1 string. It should always have an effect. .


It affects the bass strings too, just a single string there, but you can get different tones too. In any case, depending how deep you press the pedal, therefore hitting the string with harder/softer parts of the hammer surface, which is what I was getting at with the various gradations and subtle timbre variations you can get on real acoustics, currently not present on digital una corda implementations. It would be a nice icing on the cake feature to have.
Posted By: lucky luke

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 06/06/17 07:48 PM

@Frederic: sorry for the confusion. AG for me is acoustic grand smile

I use both the soft and damper pedals.
From pure mechanical point of view the shift of keys affects me more. When I jump quickly from key to key further apart than one, two octaves and press / release the damper pedal at the same time, I do have to consider the key movement. I know it is only few mm, but they sometimes do cause my finger land not only on the correct, but also on it's neighboring key.
Posted By: peterws

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 06/06/17 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by peterws
Having read thro' some o' this, I'd be interested in how some of you folk who've had to (reluctantly) evict the acoustic felt about the playability and sound of the hybrid which replaced it. the reason I ask, is that I was playing the Kawai GL10 for a short while before the Roland LX17. And there was no comparison.
NO WAY did the Roland capture the spirit of a real grand, although it was undoubtedly good.
And no way did the grand produce the balanced, pleasant piano sound I would reasonably expect. Even when i stopped playing, it wouldn't shut up . . . . . I'll call it Mr. Bojangles . . .


Sorry to bounce this, but the page turned . . . . .nobody'd see it . . .
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 06/06/17 08:43 PM

Originally Posted by peterws

Sorry to bounce this, but the page turned . . . . .nobody'd see it . . .


Hey Peter,

1. If you're logged in, clicking on a thread with new posts should take you to the earliest post you haven't read since your last view of the thread, so that could be the last post on a prior page even if there are more responses; and

2. The forum lets you customize how many posts display per page, so the page breaks are not going to be the same for everyone.

So in short, donI wouldn't worry about your responses getting lost due page changes smile
Posted By: lilp

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 06/21/17 12:59 AM

Is this still on track for October? I will pick one up on day 1, I have been dreaming of a piano like this just for the action for a long time. The AvantGrand was a good entry in the segment, but this is more what I was looking for.
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 06/21/17 11:06 AM

I don't think there ever was a definitive statement with October as a release date. I think that month was simply inferred second-hand from rather vague statements like "later this year". So since this isn't official, it also can't be officially "still on track".

But taking "October" as a synonym for "later this year", I also hope that it is still on track for that time frame.

I too am very interested (although I won't buy it sight unseen)...
Posted By: jokke

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 06/26/17 09:07 PM

A email subscription to the release announcement would be great option. I find myself checking Kawai global website once a week in case it would suddenly pop up. It's definitely on my "most likely purchases" list for Christmas season... If it is competitive in price/performance ratio to the AvantGrand series. With the N3X at 18 ke here in Finland, I won't be getting that one for Christmas in case NOVUS somehow isn't as grand as I'm hoping.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 06/26/17 10:00 PM

Personally, I think it will be better than the AvantGrand (specs aside).

Kawai has taken its time to develop this instrument, and I'm sure they've made side-by-side comparisons with the AvantGrand, and most certainly are aiming at surpassing it.
Posted By: Gérard

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 07/09/17 05:03 PM

Novus NV10

thumb 3hearts
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 07/09/17 05:58 PM

$8000 USD...gotta start saving up!
Posted By: Gérard

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 07/09/17 06:17 PM

So will I ! wink
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 07/10/17 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
$8000 USD...gotta start saving up!


If that's the MSRP, then it will sell for less than $8000.
This is good news, considering that the N2 is selling for $9000, but even if the Novus does sell for $8000 it's still a good alternative.
Posted By: Gérard

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 07/11/17 01:40 PM

https://kakakumag.com/hobby/?id=10548

[img]https://img1-kakaku.ssl.k-img.com/images/maga/10548/15.jpg?d=201706301251[/img]
[img]https://img1-kakaku.ssl.k-img.com/images/maga/10548/1a.jpg?d=201706301251[/img]
[img]https://img1-kakaku.ssl.k-img.com/images/maga/10548/33.jpg?d=201706301251[/img]
Posted By: PianoGuyStuart

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 07/11/17 03:59 PM

Translates...

"Kawai Musical Instruments Co., Ltd. (hereafter Kawai) announced the flagship model "NOVUS NV 10" of electronic piano handled by the company. The price is 900,000 yen (tax not included), and it is scheduled to be released in October 2017. At the same time it is a model commemorating the company 's founding 90th anniversary, and it is a major feature that it was jointly developed with the audio maker "ONKYO (Onkyo)" which is in a collaborative relationship."

900000 is around £6200.

Be interesting to see what it ends up costing in the UK.

Think I will hold off for a while though on buying anything. This one does sound very interesting. It sounds like they have done a fair bit of work on the headphone sound as well, which I think is important for me.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 07/11/17 04:29 PM

Is this subwoofer on the left side standard on the Novus? Looks very ugly and spoils the sleek piano appearance. Like an aftermarket solution. I don't usually relate the image of a piano with the image of a subwoofer laugh
Posted By: ando

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 07/11/17 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Is this subwoofer on the left side standard on the Novus? Looks very ugly and spoils the sleek piano appearance. Like an aftermarket solution. I don't usually relate the image of a piano with the image of a subwoofer laugh

I seem to remember the presentation that Kawai James gave mentioned that the speaker system is an optional extra. It's not part of the piano itself. I think the piano is very striking looking.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 07/11/17 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Is this subwoofer on the left side standard on the Novus? Looks very ugly and spoils the sleek piano appearance. Like an aftermarket solution. I don't usually relate the image of a piano with the image of a subwoofer laugh

I seem to remember the presentation that Kawai James gave mentioned that the speaker system is an optional extra. It's not part of the piano itself. I think the piano is very striking looking.


Huh? I don't see a subwoofer off to the side? I do see what looks like a concert grand sitting sadly in a corner behind the Novus, and a couple of stand-mounted monitors...
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 07/11/17 11:50 PM

Hello chaps,

The speaker to the left of the pianist (Ayano Entani) was just an additional monitor to allow her to hear the orchestral backing track used for the Rachmaninoff piece.

The main speakers used to play-back this backing track were two special edition Onkyo Scepter units (note that these will not be optional extras for the Novus - actually, I don't believe the ebony polish versions are even available for purchase), however for the Japanese press event, these were positioned a little further back from the NV10. Due to the greater distance from the piano (and the larger stage in general), the pianist requested an additional monitor speaker to aid her performance of the accompaniment piece.

I hope this helps to clear-up any confusion.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: brooster

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 07/12/17 12:36 PM

Novus N10 Hybrid translated

Here's the text minus the pictures:

Release of hybrid digital piano "NOVUSNV 1 0" equipped with grand piano action
Fusion of Kawai's piano technology and Onkyo's audio technology - Hybrid digital piano showing new possibilities -

Hybrid digital piano equipped with grand piano action "N O V U S N V 1 0" released </ br> Fusion of Kawai's piano technology · Onkyo's audio technology - Hybrid digital piano showing new possibilities -

▲ NOVUS NV 10

Kawai Musical Instruments Co., Ltd. celebrated its 90th anniversary in 2017. We will release the hybrid digital piano "NOVUSNV 10" with grand piano keyboard action as a commemoration model for the 90th anniversary of our founding, on October 6, with a gratitude to many customers including Kawai fans.

Since the capital and business alliance of November 2015, Onkyo Corporation is promoting the joint development of new category products and services, and now we are releasing "NOVUSNV 10" for the first time as a joint development product. Prior to this announcement, this "NOVUSNV 10" exhibited at the Frankfurt Music Messe held in Frankfurt, Germany in April 2017, has received high popularity.

"NOVUS" is a Latin word meaning "new" or "fresh", including the innovative damper mechanism as a digital piano, incorporating the latest audio technology by collaboration with Onkyo, including the intention of "a new hybrid piano" I will.

This product reproduces the performance of Kawai's grand piano keyboard action "Ultra Responsive · Action II" specially arranged for hybrid digital piano, and it's touch performance is fully reproduced. In addition, it can be played with the feeling of playing the grand piano, equipped with a breakthrough "damper mechanism" as a hybrid type.

On the sound side, Onkyo's latest audio technology, which reproduces the best full concert piano SK-EX and the piano's reverberation, creates a pure and depthy piano sound.

■ Features of this product

· Grand piano action

The action is based on Ultra Responsive · Action Ⅱ on the Kawai Grand Piano, the hammer jumps up by key strokes, and the keyboard mechanism of the NV 10 sounds is gathered with the technology of the piano maker.

For the action parts, we use state-of-the-art carbon fiber-filled ABS resin, excellent grip hysteresis, high mildness controllability, and it is possible to meet the high-level requirements of performers. Furthermore, it is equipped with a non-contact optical sensor that detects the movement of the hammer more accurately, and it is designed with a mechanism that does not affect the touch of the keyboard. Also, as with the grand piano, the weight of different hammers is also reproduced with 88 keys.

GP_Action

· Damper mechanism mounted

When the damper pedal is stepped on the grand piano, the keyboard touch will be lighter than when it is not being stepped on. The NV 10 incorporates this damper mechanism and reproduces the difference in touch feeling caused by the damper pedal.

· New sound source to reproduce the sound and reverberation of the concert piano SK - EX

Kawai 's full concert Piano SK - EX' s keyboards are sampled in multiple channels, and by fusing it with new technologies that model the entire 88 keyboard to create piano - specific sounds, the grand piano 's "comfort of playing" , "Realized sound response" realized.

As a piano tone, we have three types of Kawaii Grand Piano sounds including SK-5, EX, including the concert grand piano SK-EX, which has earned high acclaim at numerous competitions.

· High quality sound reproduction realized by onkyo technology

With technology collaboration with Onkyo which is a global audio maker, it adopts the same technology as high class audio equipment, technology which increases sound resolution (1 - bit processing), noise reduction circuit (DIDRCFilter), amplifier which improves sound quality of headphone (Spectra Module), and a power amplifier (Premium Amps) which improves the sound quality of the speaker are carried. This reproduces the pure sound faithful to the original sound.

ONKYOTechnology

· LCD color touch panel mounted

We have eliminated switches peculiar to the digital piano and mounted the liquid crystal color touch panel on the left side of the main body. You can operate with abundant functions touching, swiping, etc. with smartphone feeling.

Panel

Main specifications

keyboard 88 key wooden keyboard grand piano action 88 grade exclusive hammer
With damper mechanism
Keyboard sensor GP-IHSS non-contact optical sensor system
sound source SK-EX rendering
Maximum polyphony 256 sounds
display 800 x 480 dots color touch liquid crystal display
lesson All 377 songs (training songs 357 fingers' training 20 songs)
metronome 1/4, 2/4, 3/4, 4/4, 5/4, 3/8, 6/8, 7/8, 9/8, 12/8 100 rhythms
Internal recorder When selecting a piano: 1 part × 3 songs 10 minutes / when a sound is selected: 2 parts × 10 songs, the total number of stored sounds about 90,000 sounds
USB recorder Playback: MP3 (bit rate: 8 k to 320 bps,
Sampling frequency: 44.1 kHz, 48 kHz, 32 kHz),
WAV (44, 1 kHz, 16 bit), SMF, KSO (internal song file)
Wireless connection Bluetooth® Audio, Bluetooth® MIDI
Headphone function Spatial headphone sound, headphone type, headphone volume
function Concert tuner, dual, split, 4 hands (duel play),
Tone control etc.
pedal Damper (Half pedal compatible), Soft, Sostenuto
Music stand Possible folding (angle adjustment function: 6 steps)
output 135 W (45 W × 3)
speaker 16 cm × 1, 10 cm × 4, dome × 2 (dome tweeter)
Dimension / Weight W148 × D64.5 × H 92.5 (cm) At the time of setup, but the music stand was knocked down · 127 kg
■ Sales price

900,000 yen (excluding tax)

■ Annual sales goal

100 units (domestic)

■ Product Special Site

Http://www.kawai-onkyo.com/en/novus/

■ Press release image download site

Http://www.kawai.co.jp/newsimg/date/2017/

※ Bluetooth's word mark and logo are registered trademarks owned by Bluetooth SIG, Inc.
Other company names, product names or service names mentioned are trademarks or registered trademarks of each company.

■ Inquiries about this matter

· For the general public

Terajima cho, Naka-ku, Hamamatsu city Shizuoka prefecture 430-8665
Kawara Mfg. Co., Ltd. Customer consultation room
Tel. 053-457-1311

· For news media

Terajima cho, Naka-ku, Hamamatsu city Shizuoka prefecture 430-8665
Public Relations Division, Comprehensive Planning Department, Kawai Musical Instruments Co., Ltd.
Tel.053-457-1226 Fax.053-457-1225 Mail: koho@kawai.co.jp
Posted By: jokke

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 07/12/17 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by brooster
Annual sales goal

100 units (domestic)


To me, this was surprisingly low -- I'm already quite interested in buying one, and were I to purchase it in Japan, I'd alone be 1 % of the user base! With 5 million people in my home country (Finland), they need to sell 3.9 units annyally for a similar ratio pee capita -- already 25 % taken care of with my purchase!

I'm wondering, how many grand actions Kawai currently produces annually, and would the worldwide success of Novus 10 cause a bottleneck to appear in Millennium II action production? It would be too bad if there is either a risk of shortages or need to ramp up production enough to maybe impact quality on short term. Probably not an issue, just thinking aloud...

Price point seems to indicate they have confidence in at least average volume. Although, after nearly 2 weeks still no press release at Kawai-global.com, I hope they don't plan on controlling unit volume by limiting the geograpical availability to Japan only until several months!
Posted By: Fripp

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 07/12/17 08:49 PM

Will the NV10 ship pre-assembled (like the CA97 and CS11) or will it require assembly after delivery?
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 07/12/17 09:07 PM

The CA97/CS11 are shipped as single (assembled) units due to the built-in soundboard.
I assume the Novus will require some assembly; however, most dealers will do this for you.
Posted By: Fripp

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 07/12/17 09:43 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14
The CA97/CS11 are shipped as single (assembled) units due to the built-in soundboard.
I assume the Novus will require some assembly; however, most dealers will do this for you.


Yes, I'm aware that it is due to the soundboard but there could maybe be other reasons when it comes to the NV10.
The Yamaha NU1 for some reason ships as a single unit and maybe also the AvantGrand N2, not sure, but at least the combined N2/N3 manual only contains assembly instructions for the N3 and doesn't mention anything regarding N2 assembly.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 07/12/17 10:55 PM

Perhaps it will be shipped assembled, but it seems like it would be more cost-effective for Kawai to ship it in pieces overseas. I couldn't care less, either way, as long as I receive it nicely assembled from the dealer. Buying online might be a completely different experience.
Posted By: Belger1900

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 08/04/17 01:02 PM

Hi,

I personally think that Kawai in the last 10 years has done a huge leap forwards in digital instruments. The NV 10 is the instrument I have been waiting for, as I allways found the avant grands to be far too expensive.
BUT as all new instruments or digital/electronic components I think they will have some updating to do until they solve all hardware/ software issues/bugs. I think in one year or so this instrument would be worth the buy.

Yamaha has the advantage that they have 3 avant grand models and have more experience. If Kawai offers the NV10 too expensive, they will have a hard time selling it.

At the moment I have a Kawai ES8. Great instrument and I am leaning forward to an N1. Unfortunately Kawai will be too late for my purchase.

Is there now any news on release date for the NV10?
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 08/07/17 02:01 AM

Hello Belger1900,

Originally Posted by Belger1900
Is there now any news on release date for the NV10?


I see from another post that you have already purchased the N1, however to answer your query, a release date for the NV10 has yet to be formally announced by Kawai Europe. However, I expect the instrument will be available before the end of this year, if not earlier.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: brooster

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 08/15/17 03:38 PM

Recent Novus Videos:

KAWAI NOVUS NV-10. Muy pronto! (Trailer)

プロによる、カワイの90周年記念電子ピアノ・演奏の様子

NOVUS NV10とA-9150(S)による アンサンブル演奏|TuneGate.me

Posted By: IgorLevit

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 09/04/17 10:53 AM

Was it ever mentioned that the new piano sound might be modelled instead of sampled ?

I found this:
http://www.mi-pro.co.uk/new-gear/re...h-the-new-novus-nv10-hybrid-piano/022768
“Bringing these things together with the newly modelled sound of the Shigeru Kawai SK-EX is a perfect celebration of Kawai’s philosophy,” said the company.

Could be interesting to have a response to Roland from Kawai, but this might also be that they enhanced the modeled part for their sampled sound..
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 09/04/17 02:16 PM

Initially the Novus was described as using "sampling and modeling;" implying a hybrid approach where sampling and modeling share equal billing, but as you read more it turns out that the piano uses mainly samples with some aspects (reverberations) being physically modeled. Now we have this: '.......the newly modeled sound of the Shigeru....' as it relates to the Novus. I don't think that Kawai simply decided to go full modeling over the last six months, but I hope they could be more transparent about the underlying technology.
Posted By: ElmerJFudd

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 09/04/17 04:05 PM

Marketing speak and tech specs don't always align cleanly. How well it sounds is always most important - but they realize that modeling is a buzz word at the moment and need to express they are using current technology.

If sampling sounds better they should use it - and rely on modeling where it excels (as you suggested - reverb, string and sympathetic resonance).
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 09/04/17 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
Marketing speak and tech specs don't always align cleanly. How well it sounds is always most important - but they realize that modeling is a buzz word at the moment and need to express they are using current technology.

If sampling sounds better they should use it - and rely on modeling where it excels (as you suggested - reverb, string and sympathetic resonance).


Agreed, it sounded like a throwaway marketing term, and not some incredibly subtle hint that Kawai has some completely new tone generation technology.

Although I imagine all sampling pianos will be incorporating more and more elements of "modeling" into their DPs over the next few years.
Posted By: Osho

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 09/04/17 08:30 PM

Anyone heard from their sources when one can play this in stores in USA??

Thanks
Osho
Posted By: Falsch

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 09/04/17 10:19 PM

"Newly modeled SK-EX" probably just meant "newly created (from samples we already have)". They've been doing this for years: the Kawai EX is in a lot (all?) of their piano's, but samples sound different, are longer, or are 88-key sampled. I'm sure Kawai has one ultra-high-end quality recording of the EX, and has been re-using / re-editing / re-packaging it for a decade. Since the CA-x7 and CS-8/11, they also have an SK-EX, and I assume they just worked it over to get a new/better version.

Kawai already uses quite a bit of modelling, owing by their extensive Virtual Technician. If it was fully sampled, some of the settings they have wouldn't even be possible, such as setting the length and/or loudness of the sympathetic resonances.
Posted By: JFP

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 09/05/17 08:02 PM

Since I am planning to be back in the game , after an unplanned 2 year full-stop by an accident with my left hand, I was eying the new Kawai for a while. Probably above budget (probably , hahaha...;-) , but I was wondering the same thing. Apart from al the new snick/snack with the keybed and pedals, I doubt if the source of the samples will be any different from what has been used before (for ages). So probably the exact same sounds , although more dynamic (modelling) , longer decays , more precise control. However...basically not a very different sound from te previous models. Would be nice to have some variation in the tonal quality of the Kawai's. The EX and Sjigeru are good, but always eating the same dish can become boring in a while, no matter the quality of the dish itself. In short I hope for a new - other tone in the new Kawai's , in addition to what we already know.

Some goes for some of the other brands by the way. You might say an acoustic also 'always' sounds the same , because it is what it is, but due to the living creature inside (natural materials that are influenced by external elements) , intonation, hammer hardness , aging, etc that sound is less static and will vary over time, making it more interesting to repeatedly play in the end.

For me - either a discounted Roland LX or new Kawai is in the picture. Let's wait and see what's coming (current Kawai's seem on sale (out), so Novus is not the only model coming me guess).
Posted By: jokke

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 09/19/17 11:28 AM

I have to say it's slightly frustrating that Kawai first announces a great new digital piano product (Novus in this case), and then there is basically six months of silence, unless you count the product announcement in Japanese a couple of months ago.

I have been really looking forward to this product, but going to kawai-global.com for the 27th time and noting the "Notice and Apology Regarding Possible Leakage of Personal Information" news item dated April 13th is a bit of a bummer. I'm not sure if Kawai James has contacts towards Kawai marketing team, but here's some free marketing consultation to Kawai:

1. Announcing a new product might be best done less than 6 months from availability, unless you are aiming to stop your target group buying an impeding product from a competitor -- in this case, nothing big from Roland or Yamaha have arrived, so the latter point is slightly moot
2. If you announce way ahead, it might be great way to build enthusiasm to schedule a few events between the announcement and availability -- maybe an exclusive preview to some bigger stores, a surprise concert by a known pianist with the product, some leaked details or an interview -- it would be great PR and considering the guys here are translating articles in Japanese, they'd certainly get picked up!
3. If you don't even want to do any pre-release promotion apart from "announcement and then 6 months of silence", maybe a "notify me when product is available" -subscription into Kawai-Global.com, so people don't need to check every now and then what is happening?

Once the Novus NV10 becomes available, it would be nice to also hear where the model will be available. I asked a local store in Finland who carry Kawai DPs and they said they most likely will not have it in Finland (too small clientele for that I suppose). In case there's no units coming near me, it would be nice to for example stores in Berlin that might carry it.
Posted By: EssBrace

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 09/19/17 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by jokke
I'm not sure if Kawai James has contacts towards Kawai marketing team....


I have no doubt he does but he's not been around for a while.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 09/19/17 11:55 AM

I think for some time he was responding not in the morning (like if he's in Japan) but more like he's in Europe. Then he stopped responding... Hopefully everything is OK with him and he's still at Kawai.
Posted By: PianoGuyStuart

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 09/19/17 01:31 PM

I agree jokke.

It is a bit odd that Yamaha and Kawai and others don't have someone actively posting here (and other big piano forums) 'officially'.

The Yamaha Clavinova launch for example seemed to pass off without a single post from anyone actually at Yamaha.

And this Kawai one has a single big fanfare event and then total silence. Weird way of going about things.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 09/19/17 04:58 PM

I generally don't have an interest in companies who choose to pre-announce products (there are trade-offs to it, but not everyone has to buy into Steve Jobs' desire to announce when you are ready to ship). Kawai does however pushed a concept that doesn't seem to have gone anywhere (the CS-X1 with Onkyo) and disappeared without a word. I don't expect the Novus to share the same fate as it's been presented as an actual product, but for those in the market, it can understandably frustrating to not have any updates on availability.
Posted By: Belger1900

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 09/19/17 07:06 PM

Should be available in the last quarter of this year. Where's the problem? I do not think everyone will now want to buy the novus? Or does everyone here have to choose now between the avantgrand oder the Novus? I think not.
I think its just the typical curiosity for a new product. We will wait and see what happens.
The earlier they bring the instrument to the market, the more they can sell. They should in any case bring it before Christmas time.
Posted By: Tom Fort

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 09/19/17 07:16 PM

It makes sense not to pre-announce your product when it will cannibalize sales of your existing product (the Osborne Effect). But when your new product is likely to cannibalize sales of a competitor's product, or is a new product for you, then it makes sense to pre-announce.

I think Kawai considers the announcement of the Novus more likely to cannibalize sales of the Yamaha AvantGrands rather than their own pianos.

Apple pre announced the Apple Watch and the HomePod, both of which were entering new markets for Apple. They also pre announced the 2018 Mac Pro was in development, to prevent more defections of Pro customers to other platforms.
Posted By: Dstewart

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 09/20/17 03:43 PM

First post.

I have been following the release of the NV10 with interest. For what it's worth, I found a Japanese trade publication while Googling around about a week ago that said:

"Kawai distributes Novus NV10 hybrid digital piano on Oct. 6. First introduced at Frankfurt Music Fair in April, it was well accepted by pianists and the industry."

http://www.musictrades.co.jp/english/detail/?param=8696

Hopefully there will be more news soon.
Posted By: EssBrace

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 09/20/17 03:46 PM

Welcome! That's a good spot. Roll on Oct 6th then...
Posted By: Belger1900

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 09/20/17 10:35 PM

Curious about the price. But I do not think it will be cheaper than the N1.
Posted By: Agent88

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 09/20/17 10:55 PM

My guess is $10,000.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 09/20/17 10:58 PM

Originally Posted by Agent88
My guess is $10,000.


There was an announcement earlier that pegged it at $8000 (JPY->USD).
Posted By: Agent88

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 09/20/17 11:34 PM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by Agent88
My guess is $10,000.


There was an announcement earlier that pegged it at $8000 (JPY->USD).


Still going with $10,000 and will hope and cross my fingers I'm wrong and it costs less.
Posted By: PianoGuyStuart

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 09/21/17 10:04 AM

There is a danger that they believe their own hype in pricing this.

Even at £7000 (which is what I heard suggested from a salesman in the Kawai shop the other day) would severely limit the sales of this.

I would have thought that as the new Yamaha NU1X is priced at around £4000 to £4500. That is really their competition.

Under £5K they would probably sell a lot (assuming it is any good). But above that (which it probably will be) it enters a totally different spending bracket, and while people may like it, they still won't necessarily buy it in comparison to the competition.

At the end of the day real people have to buy these and the Kawai CS11 already feels pretty good touch wise (which is the main selling point of the NV10 from what I can see), and costs around £3400.

Anyway, be interesting to try it. The guy in the shop reckoned availability by the end of the year (this is in London), so i didn't get the feeling that Kawai had been bombarding him with sales literature.

My gut feeling is that the launch has been delayed, and it's unlikely we'll see it on October 6th. But hopefully I'm wrong!
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 09/21/17 12:40 PM

This instrument is meant to compete with the AvantGrand N2/3; not with the NU1X which uses an upright action.
If the AvantGrand N2/3 sell between 9/12 thousand dollars respectively, I don't see why the Novus will have any problem selling for 8/9 K.
The Novus has longer keys, damper mechanism, and a brand new speaker system designed by ONKYO. And yes, these are simply specs, but if we take into consideration Kawai's track record -their digital piano actions being considered the best- one can only assume that a real grand piano action from Kawai will blow the competition out of the water.
Posted By: Doug M.

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 09/21/17 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14
This instrument is meant to compete with the AvantGrand N2/3; not with the NU1X which uses an upright action.
If the AvantGrand N2/3 sell between 9/12 thousand dollars respectively, I don't see why the Novus will have any problem selling for 8/9 K.
The Novus has longer keys, damper mechanism, and a brand new speaker system designed by ONKYO. And yes, these are simply specs, but if we take into consideration Kawai's track record -their digital piano actions being considered the best- one can only assume that a real grand piano action from Kawai will blow the competition out of the water.


Yes they will be competitive, assuming they bring in some sort of equivalent to the TRS system. The action on the Avant Grand is already good enough---a longer action won't be a deal breaker---and the Avant Grand speaker system is already very good. Where the Yamaha lacks is it's sampled tones: if you don't like the Yamaha sound, maybe the Kawai will be better. I don't imagine the ONKYO speakers will beat Yamaha's; rather, they might simply bring the Kawai up a notch in an area they were slightly behind in.
Posted By: mcoll

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 09/21/17 03:26 PM

My 2 cents:
The longer action is always welcomed. The truly major upgrade is the real damper pedal which actually lifts the dampers and makes the key lighter. Thus it's an entire acoustic action (and a good action at that). This was a relevant point which the avangrands miss.
As for the TRS, I'm not sure that's such a useful feature, since when playing at acoustic equivalent volume, the keys in most digitals (even cheaper ones) vibrate plenty.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 09/21/17 03:42 PM

Speculation: since the AvantGrand action does not use a damper mechanism, Yamaha must've compromised the key weight in order to compensate for the actual key weight difference when the pedal is engaged (assuming they were aiming at an exact emulation of a Yamaha grand). In theory, the Novus action should feel exactly as a Kawai grand; at least in terms of key weight.

Reality: the AvantGrand does indeed behave like a violin when the damper pedal is engaged. They claim this is normal, and I understand what they were trying to emulate, but they over did it, and it sounds like a crescendo rather than the natural accumulation of lingering partials and their parent fundamental.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 09/21/17 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by PianoGuyStuart
I would have thought that as the new Yamaha NU1X is priced at around £4000 to £4500. That is really their competition.


I'm also curious to know how you came to this conclusion? Like other posters have suggested, are you aware that the NU1X is an upright action, whereas the Novus action is based on a full grand (and larger grands than the action of the Avant Grand N1-N3 series)?

I regularly play an NU1, and while I'm impressed by how well it simulates the feel of an upright like an Yamaha U3, I usually start and end the session thinking how much my digital action better approximates the feel of a good acoustic grand. At least for me, when I switch between the grand and the digital, it's seamless. When switching to the upright, it's absolutely fine and easy to do so but it does feel noticeably different.

Originally Posted by mcoll
M
As for the TRS, I'm not sure that's such a useful feature, since when playing at acoustic equivalent volume, the keys in most digitals (even cheaper ones) vibrate plenty.


At normal playing volume I agree, especially with the AvantGrand's substantial speaker system. I wonder if TRS is instead there for low volume or headphone play, or if there's something more subtle that Yamaha is focusing on.
Posted By: EssBrace

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 09/21/17 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by Doug M.
I don't imagine the ONKYO speakers will beat Yamaha's; rather, they might simply bring the Kawai up a notch in an area they were slightly behind in.


I think the AG N2 and N3 have Dynaudio speakers (I was told that by someone who should know anyway). In traditional hifi terms they are well regarded, whereas Onkyo isn't really. They were always a budget brand. That said, I cannot imagine that Kawai would launch a product so many years after the AG which doesn't at least have the edge over the Yamaha product.
Posted By: 36251

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 09/21/17 08:19 PM

Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by Doug M.
I don't imagine the ONKYO speakers will beat Yamaha's; rather, they might simply bring the Kawai up a notch in an area they were slightly behind in.


I think the AG N2 and N3 have Dynaudio speakers (I was told that by someone who should know anyway). In traditional hifi terms they are well regarded, whereas Onkyo isn't really. They were always a budget brand. That said, I cannot imagine that Kawai would launch a product so many years after the AG which doesn't at least have the edge over the Yamaha product.


<just the facts> The AG samples are recorded at 4 different mics and they correspond to the speaker placement, as well as there are separate amps for each zone (at least on N2 and N3.) That being said, I'm still interested in trying and maybe buying the Kawai. I do love my N2 even with its imperfections.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 09/21/17 08:37 PM

I understand at this market segment, most people are looking for a no-compromise, as-close-as-possible-to-a-grand-piano experience. But I'm really not that interested in speakers/volume, and actually wish there was a hypothetical N0 or NV-1 that didn't charge extra for the premium hi-fi and cabinet, and just had a headphone and some line-out jacks.
Posted By: Belger1900

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 09/21/17 10:03 PM

Well, I personally think the novus should be compared to the N1. The N2 for me is this "in between" thing. If I am spending the money on an overpriced digital, why not spend a bit more for the better N3?

The N1 costs between 6 and 7k€. Depending on where you buy it. The Novus will be new and will of course give some people the "must have" feeling. So I think it will be round about 7-8k€ max. If it is more I think they will be right with their assumption of max 100 units a year...if at all. Don't forget, this is a very special instrument for a rather small group of special people. The big audience will stick to their standard digitals.

And speaking of Onkyo. I don't think Onkyo is better than any other company out there selling electronics or loudspeakers. And people who have money to spend on good speakers will probably not go for Onkyo. But it's always about brand names I guess. And a good marketing seems to increase sales a lot.
For speakers I personally would rather go with focal, quadral, elac, heco, nubert just to name a few.

But I think Kawai will bring some movement inside the market and especially to yamahas avantgrand line up. Perhaps yamaha will rethink their overpriced models...
Posted By: Agent88

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 09/21/17 11:52 PM

Originally Posted by Belger1900
Well, I personally think the novus should be compared to the N1. The N2 for me is this "in between" thing. If I am spending the money on an overpriced digital, why not spend a bit more for the better N3?

The N1 costs between 6 and 7k€. Depending on where you buy it. The Novus will be new and will of course give some people the "must have" feeling. So I think it will be round about 7-8k€ max. If it is more I think they will be right with their assumption of max 100 units a year...if at all.


For the guess-game record, my guess above is for asking price. Actual selling price is dealer, market, and customer, dependent.
Posted By: 36251

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 09/22/17 12:04 AM

Originally Posted by Belger1900
The N2 for me is this "in between" thing. If I am spending the money on an overpriced digital, why not spend a bit more for the better N3?


I have an N2, it's not an "in between purchase." I'm not trying to dis the N3, but I've read reviews of people preferring the N2 cause it has a more direct sound. You really need to live with both for a month to say the N2 is an in-between.

I've had my N2 since 11/2011 and I never once thought I made a mistake. Every day I get to play an in-tune piano that sounds good enough to fool me and helping me to make strides practicing.

To get back on topic. I might be swayed by Kawai. I'm always ready to upgrade, if it is an upgrade. These things are tools unless you're lucky enough to afford and have room for a B or D (hi, Dave if you read this smile )
Posted By: PianoGuyStuart

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 09/22/17 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by PianoGuyStuart
I would have thought that as the new Yamaha NU1X is priced at around £4000 to £4500. That is really their competition.


I'm also curious to know how you came to this conclusion? Like other posters have suggested, are you aware that the NU1X is an upright action, whereas the Novus action is based on a full grand (and larger grands than the action of the Avant Grand N1-N3 series)?

I regularly play an NU1, and while I'm impressed by how well it simulates the feel of an upright like an Yamaha U3, I usually start and end the session thinking how much my digital action better approximates the feel of a good acoustic grand. At least for me, when I switch between the grand and the digital, it's seamless. When switching to the upright, it's absolutely fine and easy to do so but it does feel noticeably different.

Originally Posted by mcoll
M
As for the TRS, I'm not sure that's such a useful feature, since when playing at acoustic equivalent volume, the keys in most digitals (even cheaper ones) vibrate plenty.


At normal playing volume I agree, especially with the AvantGrand's substantial speaker system. I wonder if TRS is instead there for low volume or headphone play, or if there's something more subtle that Yamaha is focusing on.


I do think it is interesting that the NU1X has been moved into the Avantgrand lineup:

https://uk.yamaha.com/en/products/musical_instruments/pianos/avantgrand/index.htmlhttps://uk.yamaha.com/en/products/musical_instruments/pianos/avantgrand/index.html

The marketing tone regarding the action is noticeably emphasizing the ''grand feel', rather than the upright action:

"Great sound demands great feel, and the NU1X delivers with a real acoustic upright hammer action that is far more grand-like in its response than that of the NU1, or indeed, of any digital piano on the market today."

So my guess (and it has to be a guess because no-one has played one yet!) is that the feel of this may make it a direct competitor to the NV10.

I appreciate that may not be the way Kawai sees it! But, at the end of the day, it depends if this is all marketing schtick by Yamaha, or if the NU1X does have a rather more grand feel to it.

If it does, and with the same sound improvements of the CLP-685, which was recently released, (whose sound was noticeably nicer through headphones especially then all the older Avantgrands I tried). Then I do think this is a real-world competitor (in terms of handing over the money).

For what it's worth. I agree that Kawai may be targeting a higher price then £4000 to £4500 (£7000 - £8000 is my guess)

But then, ultimately, whether anyone pays it depends on what else they can get for their money. If the NU1X 'feels' 'grand-like', and has the same sound as the 685, then I would certainly put that as competition, even if Kawai is actually 'aiming' to be a cheaper competitor for the N2 (which costs around £10,500), or a 'better' version of the N1 (which is around £6700)

My guess is that Kawai will pitch it as a N2 quality for roughly N1 prices.

All I'm saying, is that depending on how the NU1X actually plays and sounds, it could spoil their party.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 09/22/17 02:07 PM

Ah, I see where you are coming from. Yeah on one hand it's weird for the NU1X to be in the AG lineup, but on the other, previously thought it was at one point!

I'd like to think that people in the market for an AG will be able to understand the difference between a real upright and a grand, but who knows. But I do I personally know someone who bought an NU1 thinking it had a grand action (and this guy was a bona fide musician, though not a pianist). So maybe there's something there. But in terms of direct competition, I would hope the NU1X is completely outclassed by the real AGs, and hopefully by the Novus as well.
Posted By: EssBrace

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 09/22/17 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by 36251
Originally Posted by Belger1900
The N2 for me is this "in between" thing. If I am spending the money on an overpriced digital, why not spend a bit more for the better N3?


I have an N2, it's not an "in between purchase." I'm not trying to dis the N3, but I've read reviews of people preferring the N2 cause it has a more direct sound. You really need to live with both for a month to say the N2 is an in-between.


As an ex-N3 owner I agree with you completely. Other than the furniture value the N2 was/is the better thing.
Posted By: Belger1900

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 09/22/17 09:18 PM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
But in terms of direct competition, I would hope the NU1X is completely outclassed by the real AGs, and hopefully by the Novus as well.


Well. The NU1X despite of its marketing "X" will still be an upright action. The N1 and above will be a real grand action. This is the main difference. Unfortunately the outdated N1 will probably not have the newer soundengine of the NU1X. So the piano voices might sound better on the NU1X.
Posted By: Bambers

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 09/23/17 12:27 PM

The biggest issue to me that needs addressing with the kawai sound is the audible looping. The modelling/sampling thing is a bit moot really, it's the result that counts.

Regarding the announcement, the csx1 was presented as a concept, not a product so there shouldn't have been any expectation of that going anywhere (in the car industry this kind of stuff is really common). For the novus, it was quite clear at the time that it was intended for release this autumn so I'm not quite sure what anyone would want in the interim, someone to simply repeat that?
Posted By: Frédéric L

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 09/23/17 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by Belger1900
Unfortunately the outdated N1 will probably not have the newer soundengine of the NU1X. So the piano voices might sound better on the NU1X.

Why would the N1 not be replaced by a N1X ? Who knows ? (Yamaha of course).
Posted By: EssBrace

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 09/23/17 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by Bambers
The biggest issue to me that needs addressing with the kawai sound is the audible looping. The modelling/sampling thing is a bit moot really, it's the result that counts.


I agree. To my ears the Kawai SK-EX sound is very pleasant indeed. But I do hear the looping. Yamaha and Kawai just don't seem to know how to do it. The existence of looping at all is a bit of a shame but it can be done so much better than Y and K do it. They use these extremely short sections and loop them so it sounds so static and droning as the note dies. Totally un-piano-like. At least Kawai does ring out, albeit with the loop, for a realistic time period though. Yamahas die rather quickly.

Nord knows how to loop; make the loop itself long enough to contain some sense of movement and character.
Posted By: Bambers

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 09/23/17 01:19 PM

I think the fashion for short loops was to try and hide it more, but you do end up losing the overall movement.

It's less of an issue with the pedal down as the reasonances don't seem to suffer from the same issue.

And yes, I like the sk-ex sample set myself, nice balance of bright and mellow.
Posted By: Osho

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/02/17 07:46 AM

It's October now.. are we any closer to NV10 in stores?

Thanks,
Osho
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/02/17 11:36 AM

I believe someone stated that the official launch would be on October 6th, but I'm not sure if that means it'll be available in stores on that same day.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/02/17 02:14 PM

I'm not sure, but I think it was stated before that there would be a limited release (JP-only for now?), meaning you shouldn't expect demo units to pop up at every Guitar Center and on Thomann's at midnight on Friday....
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/02/17 02:34 PM

That's true. It'll probably be a while before it actually shows up at local dealers.
Posted By: gvfarns

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/02/17 05:59 PM

I'm not sure if they are 100% honest or informed, but the guys at my Kawai dealership told me on Saturday that it's not clear that the NV10 will really be put into production. They indicated that at the moment it's an experiment with an uncertain future and they don't expect to be able to sell it any time soon, if ever.
Posted By: ando

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/02/17 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by gvfarns
I'm not sure if they are 100% honest or informed, but the guys at my Kawai dealership told me on Saturday that it's not clear that the NV10 will really be put into production. They indicated that at the moment it's an experiment with an uncertain future and they don't expect to be able to sell it any time soon, if ever.

Well, you'd certainly hope this is not merely an experiment. If so, that is incredibly poor form from Kawai. It's akin to vapourware. I certainly don't think Kawai James was in on it if it is the case. His presentation on the NV10 certainly showed him to be very excited about this new instrument. If they were testing the waters, it would be very disingenuous because it impacts people and their decisions - maybe some people missed out on a good deal on the Yamaha AG series, especially the recently superseded models because they thought they should wait for the NV10 to come out before making a decision. I won't hold what your dealer said as gospel until it's clear what's happening with the NV10. Maybe it's just been delayed? But if they do cancel the NV10 project, my estimation of them as a company will plummet.
Posted By: EssBrace

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/02/17 08:10 PM

I'd hold off before making conclusions. Whenever I'm in the market for something (anything) I almost always find my knowledge is superior to the people selling whatever it is. In fact I'm often astounded by how little people know about what they're in the business of selling.
Posted By: mcoll

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/02/17 08:15 PM

+1 :)))
Happened with AC units, pianos, speakers, not to mention tech stuff. Heck, even cars. If you do your research well, there's a 99% chance you'll know more than the people you're buying from. So do your homework and never take the salesman'word for granted
Posted By: ando

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/02/17 08:16 PM

Originally Posted by EssBrace
I'd hold off before making conclusions. Whenever I'm in the market for something (anything) I almost always find my knowledge is superior to the people selling whatever it is. In fact I'm often astounded by how little people know about what they're in the business of selling.

Quite true. I find talking to salespeople to be a needless distraction. I usually try to head them off at the pass right from the beginning and make it clear that I know exactly what all the specs are and I'm just there to play it and I'll let them know if I need assistance. Sometimes they don't like it, but it's actually better than wasting both our time, and you actually get time to play around with it without somebody hovering over you and complimenting you on your playing.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/02/17 08:28 PM

Originally Posted by EssBrace
I'd hold off before making conclusions. Whenever I'm in the market for something (anything) I almost always find my knowledge is superior to the people selling whatever it is. In fact I'm often astounded by how little people know about what they're in the business of selling.


All the time!
Posted By: newer player

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/02/17 08:59 PM

I find the Kawai trade show information, press releases, and tidbits from James more credible than the pitch from a Texan piano salesman.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/02/17 09:27 PM

Well, Kawai has actually said that this is going to be a real product that will be released, and I'm willing to take their word at that. As to how easily it will be find, audition, or purchase, I'm thinking as a low-volume halo product, I may never see one in my life and I don't consider that abnormal.

But if I was seriously in the market for it, I'd hope I can find one by traveling to the nearest large metro area (assuming it is released "globally").
Posted By: Gérard

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/02/17 10:30 PM

http://www.kawai.com.au/

NOVUS coming soon
Posted By: Osho

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/02/17 10:43 PM

I would be really disappointed in Kawai as a company if NV10 was a vapourware. Given the effort they have put into making some noise about it, i really hope that it is not. After all, they have shown 'working models' at places such as Musikmesse. No point going through all this trouble if they don't plan to sell and make some money from it.

Originally Posted by Gérard
http://www.kawai.com.au/

NOVUS coming soon


Good to hear.

Let's hope soon is before end of the year!!

Thanks,
Osho
Posted By: jfl

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/03/17 12:13 AM

As someone who came within a hair of purchasing an AG N2 earlier this year but decided to wait when the N3X was released, I've been anxiously awaiting the release of the Kawai Novus and now the AG N2X. I'd love to be able to do a side by side comparison before making a decision but it's impossible to find dealers in New England who have both Yamaha and Kawai DPs. Hoping there will be others who try both and post their experiences. There's been very little feedback on the N3X (haven't tried that one) improvements compared to the N2/N3. I've played both the N2 and N3 and would know I'd be happy with a next gen AG even if the improvements are evolutionary instead of revolutionary (though I'm hoping for improved connectivity, and a solution to the 'auto crescendo' damper effect I noticed when playing the AGs). On the other side, the Kawai's acoustic damper key weight simulation is intriguing. If the prices are comparable it will be a very interesting decision. Hopefully both will be available for purchase later this year or early next. I wish there was more detail to read on the Kawai at this point. It must be close to production as the initial projection for availability was October 8 '17.
Posted By: Osho

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/03/17 12:52 AM

Originally Posted by jfl
As someone who came within a hair of purchasing an AG N2 earlier this year but decided to wait when the N3X was released, I've been anxiously awaiting the release of the Kawai Novus and now the AG N2X.


I have been waiting for NV10 - before deciding on the purchase of the next digital piano - which will be either NV10 or one of the Avantgrand. I really hope Kawai hasn't been just yanking all of our chains!! smile.

Osho
Posted By: computerpro3

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/03/17 03:21 AM

In case Kawai is reading this thread - I have been waiting for the Novus since it was first announced almost 8 months ago. If I can't get it by the end of the year, my patience will have run out and I'll just buy a Yamaha Avantgrand.
Posted By: jfl

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/03/17 11:37 PM

I found the N3X manual online and I see that the damper resonance is now adjustable and the noise gate can be turned off. If these updates are propagated to the N2X then it should take care of my major complaints with the N3 and N2. Like that it has USB to host instead of just Midi also, though that wasn't essential. I'm also very impressed with the CFX and Bosendorfer sound on the NU1X as heard on YouTube. If it sounds this good in person then the next gen AGs appear to be winners. Will still wait at least another few months for the appearance of the Novus and spend time playing both. I imagine one will be better than the other on some things and vice versa. It's a matter of picking the best total package. I'm assuming that the N2X will be a bit more $ than the Novus, but it may be worth more. I'm viewing this as a 15-20 year piano so will control my 'PAS' (piano acquisition syndrome) and make a careful decision.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/04/17 12:04 AM

Yamaha denied both the excess resonance (crescendo) and noise gate issue, yet now they allow for these to be controlled/turned off.
For AvantGrand owners still in denial, yes, there is something wrong with your piano. Demand a full refund from Yamaha, a fix, or a brand new X for your aging sample-in-a-box (grand piano action included). grin
Posted By: jfl

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/05/17 10:04 PM

New from Kawai: http://www.kawai-global.com/news/kawai-announces-ca98-ca78-digital-pianos/

Latest Concert Artist series with soundboard transducer. But still no information on the Novus since April. It would be interesting to hear a statement on Kawai's DP development plans. Will the Novus series be their new top of the line followed by the CA\CS series (similar to Yamaha AG and CLP)? If the soundboard transducer adds realism in the midrange, will it be added to the Novus line at some point (assuming there is a Novus line)?
Posted By: PianoGuyStuart

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/09/17 03:32 PM

FYI - Popped into a piano shop in Central London that stocks quite a large range of Kawai DPs

(Incidentally...CS-11 is lovely to play - Anyone heard if there is a CS-12 due?)

The sales guy in there reckoned that the release of the Novus has been put back to January/February of 2018. So release may not be 'imminent'...
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/09/17 03:47 PM

CS series are released with a minimum of an year after corresponding CA-series. And the new CA series have just been announced.
Posted By: Osho

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/09/17 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by PianoGuyStuart


The sales guy in there reckoned that the release of the Novus has been put back to January/February of 2018. So release may not be 'imminent'...



How 'trustworthy/reliable', in your opinion/experience, is this sales guy?

Osho
Posted By: PianoGuyStuart

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/09/17 04:03 PM

Well, he said the dates without any prompting or preamble, and they did stock a large number of Kawai DPs, so I got the feeling that they may have kept the shop in the loop (as it is Central London off Tottenham Court Road, and may potentially shift quite a few Kawai pianos)

Honestly, I don't know. But seeing as he seemed fairly clueless in other regards, but particularly definite about the Jan/Feb dates, it sort of made it seem more likely to be true, then if a more obviously 'salesy' salesman had said it.

Who knows though right!

Kawaii James...Any chance you could put folks out of their misery and give us an idea?
Posted By: Osho

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/09/17 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by PianoGuyStuart
Well, he said the dates without any prompting or preamble, and they did stock a large number of Kawai DPs, so I got the feeling that they may have kept the shop in the loop (as it is Central London off Tottenham Court Road, and may potentially shift quite a few Kawai pianos)

Honestly, I don't know. But seeing as he seemed fairly clueless in other regards, but particularly definite about the Jan/Feb dates, it sort of made it seem more likely to be true, then if a more obviously 'salesy' salesman had said it.

Who knows though right!


Thanks - that is helpful.

Originally Posted by PianoGuyStuart

Kawaii James...Any chance you could put folks out of their misery and give us an idea?


Motion seconded!

Osho
Posted By: pianistje

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/09/17 08:40 PM

I always will remember playing the Kawai DP-1 years ago at the Frankfurther Messe.
It sounded perfect and way ahead of it's competitors, but due to the unreliable nature of their harddisc streaming it vaporized in the end.
But it was presented and i did play on it myself......here's a reminder of that
Posted By: jokke

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/09/17 09:49 PM

Originally Posted by computerpro3
In case Kawai is reading this thread - I have been waiting for the Novus since it was first announced almost 8 months ago. If I can't get it by the end of the year, my patience will have run out and I'll just buy a Yamaha Avantgrand.


Me too, I played the N3X in Japan and it is a amazing instrument, but too large and pricey for me to consider (I'd rather get a used real grand for 18 000 eur or spend slightly more and get a new C2X), and also the X didn't add that much. N2X would be a more likely candidate, and I see the NV10 directly competing against it. As soon as the Novus was announced, I've been eager to try it out, if it's really like the Millennium action in the better Kawai grand pianos, I think I'm sold.

Regarding launch date -- considering how long life cycle these types of pianos have (10 years for Yamaha AvantGrands), I'd much rather wait a few extra months so everything works just as it should, than get a "almost ready" product which might need a dozen firmware upgrades, and still have something that couldn't be fixed afterwards (think the noise gate debacle on Yamaha AGs). Thankfully, my financing for this endeavour will come (hopefully) somewhere around next April, so I can wait and see whether N2X or NV10 fits the bill.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/10/17 02:54 AM

Hello chaps,

I'm afraid I do not have a fixed launch/sale date for the NV10, however I can reassure everyone that the instrument is certainly *not* vapourware.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: Osho

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/10/17 03:03 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Hello chaps,

I'm afraid I do not have a fixed launch/sale date for the NV10, however I can reassure everyone that the instrument is certainly *not* vapourware.

Kind regards,
James
x

Thanks. That's great to hear.

Appreciate you chiming in.

Osho
Posted By: jfl

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/10/17 12:54 PM

I just received this response on an inquiry regarding latest Novus news on the Kawai UK Facebook page:

'Kawai UK Hi Jon. Thank you for your question. We are hoping for a lunch at the end of October/early Novermber, and will update on here as soon as we know.'

(Hoping the responder meant to say 'launch' ;-)

Needless to say, a release in the US may be delayed, but it's a good sign.

I too am anxious for the Novus to be released. I've waited a year for the N2X and will still be waiting to try that before I make a purchase decision. The N2 was pretty close to my ideal DP (I need a vertical form factor otherwise I'd have an inherited Steinway) but having something in the same league from Kawai makes things very interesting. I'm sure in 10 years the situation will be different, but right now the AG series is the only game in town for pianists who need an acoustic action on a DP.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/10/17 01:25 PM

They’re getting together over lunch to discuss the launch of the instrument?
This forseen -expensive- lunch will ultimately be on us, for as we all know, these expenses are factored into the final price of the product. So, expect to pay a little more for the Novus simply because Kawai couldn’t discuss launching issues over emails, and instead opted for an expensive lunch on us. Not cool, you guys!
Posted By: jfl

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/11/17 04:11 PM

A very premature and simplistic head comparison of Novus to AG, without knowing many details on the Novus and using the N3X as a guide to what will be on the N2X.

Key action: Novus Millenium III based vs AG C1 based. So Kawai's has a longer pivot point for response and will be less subject to humidity fluctuations due to ABS components?

Damper action: Novus accounts for the lightened action when the damper is depressed, AG doesn't (this seems big to me)

TRS: AG vibrates the keys to simulate the transmission of vibration from the soundboard. Novus doesn't. (My time playing the AG didn't show this as an important feature)

Samples: CFX/Bosey vs SK-EX samples - both with acoustic resonance modeling

Sound system (speakers/amplifiers), Different but seem comparable. Novus top mounted mid range speakers, AG inside with lid needing to be opened for full sound.

Configurability: Kawai has touch sensitive screen with many options. AG has a few buttons and piano key control. (Come on Yamaha!)

Warranty: 5 years on both

Kawai's CA 98 has a wooden soundboard with a transducer mechanism, in addition to amplifiers/speakers.. Novus doesn't. I wonder what the considerations are on this from Kawai.

Hope this is accurate. Anything else?
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/11/17 04:15 PM

I’m also curious as to why Kawai did not use a soundboard-based system for the Novus.
Posted By: Osho

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/11/17 06:12 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14
I’m also curious as to why Kawai did not use a soundboard-based system for the Novus.


We don't know for sure that Kawai did not use a soundboard-based system for the Novus. What was previously demoed was a 'prototype'. I would imagine that Novus will have at least 'as good' sound amplification as CA98 and ideally significantly more improved - so we will have to wait for the launch to know whether Novus has a soundboard with a transducer mechanism.

Osho
Posted By: jfl

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/11/17 06:58 PM

True. We don't know that the soundboard technology isn't on the Novus (I think we're all chomping at the bit for more information on the Novus). However, I'd think the form factor would be quite different than what was displayed at Musikmesse if there was a soundboard.

I'm not saying the lack of the soundboard is necessarily a bad thing. I've never played a CA model that had one and I don't if it adds substantially in the simulation of the sound we hear on from an acoustic. For all I know it's more of a 'TRS' type feature - nice to have, but not essential. I'd love to hear some feedback from someone who has played it (not sure if the CA97 and CA98 are the same as far as the transducer is concerned). Yamaha also has the technology in their hybrids, but chose not to include it in the AG series. They obviously felt the AG sound system didn't need it.

I'd also like to know if the Novus has enhanced midi connectivity in any significant way.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/11/17 09:41 PM

You’re right about the form factor (similar to the N2). It seems like a soundboard would necessitate a solid back (left to right, top to bottom), as with an upright piano. Or maybe Kawai will custom-build an oddly shaped soundboard -unlikely- to fit the Novus’ peculiar shape.
Posted By: EssBrace

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/11/17 10:04 PM

Originally Posted by jfl
True. We don't know that the soundboard technology isn't on the Novus (I think we're all chomping at the bit for more information on the Novus). However, I'd think the form factor would be quite different than what was displayed at Musikmesse if there was a soundboard.

I'm not saying the lack of the soundboard is necessarily a bad thing. I've never played a CA model that had one and I don't if it adds substantially in the simulation of the sound we hear on from an acoustic. For all I know it's more of a 'TRS' type feature - nice to have, but not essential. I'd love to hear some feedback from someone who has played it (not sure if the CA97 and CA98 are the same as far as the transducer is concerned). Yamaha also has the technology in their hybrids, but chose not to include it in the AG series. They obviously felt the AG sound system didn't need it.


The AG N3 has a soundboard and resonator.
Posted By: Osho

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/11/17 11:05 PM

It seems Novus NV10 arrived in a store at Kawai Omotesando.

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://shop.kawai.jp/omotesando/news/&prev=search

Quote

Kawai hybrid digital piano released on Friday, October 6
"NOVUS NV 10" exhibition started Guidance

NOVUS NV 10
Hybrid digital piano "NOVUS NV 10" of the 90th anniversary model arrived in Kawai Omotesando.
The action arranges and installs "Ultra · Responsive · Action II" adopted in the Kawai Grand Piano, as well as a revolutionary "damper mechanism" as a hybrid piano.
On the sound side, equipped with the same technology as high class audio equipment by Onkyo's technical alliance, realized touch and reverberation approaching the grand piano as much as possible.

Please try "NOVUS" hybrid piano at our shop, "NOVUS" Please feel surprised even more.
※ "NOVUS" is a Latin word meaning "new" · "fresh"

To make a reservation for a trial
https://www2.kawai.co.jp/shop/omotesando/shidan/



So, certainly not a vaporware!

Osho
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/11/17 11:39 PM

Nice! Hopefully we’ll see some new videos soon.
Posted By: jfl

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/12/17 02:41 AM

The AG N3/N3X has a “soundboard resonator”—a pair of transducers coupled to the hardwood underneath the music rack. Is that the same as the CA series soundboard?

I actually preferred the sound of the N2 (without soundboard resonator). Maybe something about the way the sound comes directly back to the player. I didn't feel any difference at all in the action. Although the N3 has vibration in the pedals, I personally found the N2's pedals to feel more solid. Liked both very much though. The N3 is certainly the most beautiful looking DP I've ever seen. The N2 not so much.

Exciting news about the first retail appearance of the Novus (albeit Japan only).
Posted By: Osho

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/12/17 06:33 AM

There seems to be more places with the model available in Japan.

A concert with Novus NV10 at one of the retail store on 9th Oct - http://sendai-izumi.shimablo.com/entry/2017/10/09/195555

The link says "As of October 9, 5 units in Japan," - that doesn't sound very good for general availability in US and other parts of the world.

Osho
Posted By: Bambers

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/12/17 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by jfl

Key action: Novus Millenium III based vs AG C1 based. So Kawai's has a longer pivot point for response and will be less subject to humidity fluctuations due to ABS components?


From the shot of the novus action that was released back in the spring it did seem to have a longer pivot than the AGs (actually i think even GF 1/2 have slightly longer pivots than the AG actions). That said, this is not really a specific thing to the millenium III action. Actions (in terms of the bit between the capstan and the hammer) are generally the same across a line of pianos, the pivot length is a separate choice that is a mix of the minimum required to get the hammers into the correct place for optimal tone and then (in smaller pianos) a trade off between piano compactness and playing feel.

And yes, the composite carbon/abs should come with the usual advantages on stability.

Originally Posted by Osho

The link says "As of October 9, 5 units in Japan," - that doesn't sound very good for general availability in US and other parts of the world.


I doubt the demand is going to be high however so should probably even out. I've no idea on what the sales numbers are for the AGs but I doubt they're very high at all, it's a pretty niche market really, most people with this money to spend often just get an acoustic as they also happen to have the space/living requirements to make that work.
Posted By: Osho

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/13/17 04:02 AM

Some official marketing videos are starting to show up:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fb2pbXbLKTk

Osho
Posted By: musicman100

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/13/17 07:24 AM

Originally Posted by pianistje
I always will remember playing the Kawai DP-1 years ago at the Frankfurther Messe.
It sounded perfect and way ahead of it's competitors, but due to the unreliable nature of their harddisc streaming it vaporized in the end.
But it was presented and i did play on it myself......here's a reminder of that



There was one for sale on gumtree

https://www.gumtree.com/p/pianos/ka...trols-screen-final-reduction-/1179574103

and the manual and other info is available here

http://www.kawai.co.uk/dp1.htm

So it looks like it was for sale!!
Posted By: EssBrace

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/13/17 09:20 AM

Originally Posted by Osho
Some official marketing videos are starting to show up:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fb2pbXbLKTk

Osho


I want one.
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/13/17 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by Osho
Some official marketing videos are starting to show up:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fb2pbXbLKTk

Osho


I want one.

I can relate! I'm more or less decided to buy one, and this video has not helped with reversing that decision! grin Maybe the price will... cry
Yeah, I know, I haven't even played it yet, but if it's even half as good as I'm currently making it out to be in my mind, then it would still be a wonderful piano... crazy
Posted By: bSharp(C)yclist

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/13/17 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by Osho
Some official marketing videos are starting to show up:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fb2pbXbLKTk

Osho


Looks exciting. I will certainly take a look at this when it's available.
Posted By: jfl

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/13/17 01:06 PM

Finally. Very impressive sound, and the action on the Chopin trills looks like the real deal. The rear bass speaker panel seems small and thin compared to the N2. I'd like to compare the speaker (amp) specs when the Novus details are available but it's ultimately it's going to come down to how it plays and sounds in person. Depending on local availability, I think Yamaha's going to miss out on some sales if they don't hurry up on the N2X.
Posted By: jfl

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/13/17 01:20 PM

And note the damper action at the 2:03 mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fb2pbXbLKTk). Very cool.
Posted By: Gérard

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/13/17 01:26 PM

I want one 3hearts
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/13/17 01:38 PM

BTW, in the video, only the Chopin piece is played in the new Pianist Mode, with the SK-EX Rendering engine. The second piece (which I do not recognize) is played in Sound Mode, with the "good old" EX Concert Grand voice (not the SK-EX), with the HI-XL engine. Still sounds good to me. smile
EDIT: That also shows us that the Novus has the same pianist mode / sound mode setup as the CA98/78.

And: I hope Kawai makes sure to include the visual effects. I too want a hologram projection of a full SK-EK concert grand to appear when I play expressively!
Posted By: Holger Stief

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/13/17 02:15 PM

Now I want one as well, and I thought I was finally through with even looking at new piano gear... crazy
Seems like they really knocked it out of the park with the pianist mode! It's nice that the official marketing video shows both modes next to each other under the same circumstances.
Sound mode sounds like a good (and rather familiar) digitial piano to me, shown off in very favorable conditions. But Pianist mode in comparison seems like a whole league above it in terms of available subtle nuances, soundstage depth, note decay and resonance. Normally the trills would give it away, but here they give me the impression of a coherent instrument being played rather than samples being triggered. I found it most impressive when putting the video on in the background and not watching... when the playing starts at about 15 seconds in, I tend to forget it's a digital instrument at all. Until he switches to sound mode...

They should have blended in the virtual grand extension in the first half of the video, would have been more appropriate! wink

My only complaint from available demos so far is that at some points, the note releases sound more like a quick fadeout being applied instead of a dedicated release sample (but you even get that in some of the full-blown software libraries). Especially staccato notes can sound a bit chopped off. But apart from that, there's little else left that would give away the digital nature of the sound generation. Kudos to Kawai for pushing the envelope further!

I just watched a few official Yamaha N3X marketing videos for comparison, and while the people being interviewed rave on long and proper about it, the actual sound tells another story. I would put it firmly in the same league as the Kawai sound mode.

Would love to get the chance to try the Novus in person, and possibly compare it against the Yamaha N3X. I must admit, I already have a strong bias now...
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/13/17 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by Osho
Some official marketing videos are starting to show up:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fb2pbXbLKTk

Osho


I want one.


+1.
Posted By: Osho

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/13/17 04:37 PM

Yes, it looks all that it has been promised so far... The video segments showing the action and the damper mechanism working inside the Piano were quite impressive - Yamaha will need to raise up their game with N2X.

One key point of comparison: Yamaha Avantgrands use actions that is found in their 5' 8" or 5' 10" grand pianos - not their 'top of the line' CFX or C7X Pianos. From what I gather, the action length and the action found in all Kawai acoustic pianos (including the top of the line Shigeru Kawai SK-EX) is essentially the same "Millenium III" action on which the Novus action is based on. So, if the Novus action feels very similar to SK-EX in person, it will be a delight to play.

Osho
Posted By: jfl

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/13/17 06:08 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5o35GEmpN4

English translated comments:

I explained the operation of the color liquid crystal touch panel installed in the hybrid digital piano NV 10, digital piano CA 98 / CA 78 released in October 2017 in an easy-to-understand manner.
Posted By: Frédéric L

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/13/17 07:14 PM

It is quite surprising to see some nowadays high-end pianos (Kawai NV10, Yamaha N3X), with a such different advance in GUI (gorgeous color LCD vs 3x7 segment LED digits) !
Posted By: rach3master

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/13/17 07:47 PM

The action (which is the only part I'm interested in) certainly appears promising. I wonder if this will make me regret my N1 purchase from last year.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/13/17 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by genuse
The action (which is the only part I'm interested in) certainly appears promising. I wonder if this will make me regret my N1 purchase from last year.


If the Novus results in a glut of used N1s hitting the market, I may have to take advantage of your regret....
Posted By: dancingfish

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/13/17 09:01 PM

Originally Posted by Osho
It seems Novus NV10 arrived in a store at Kawai Omotesando.
Quote

Kawai hybrid digital piano released on Friday, October 6
"NOVUS NV 10" exhibition started Guidance

NOVUS NV 10
Hybrid digital piano "NOVUS NV 10" of the 90th anniversary model arrived in Kawai Omotesando.
The action arranges and installs "Ultra · Responsive · Action II" adopted in the Kawai Grand Piano, as well as a revolutionary "damper mechanism" as a hybrid piano.
On the sound side, equipped with the same technology as high class audio equipment by Onkyo's technical alliance, realized touch and reverberation approaching the grand piano as much as possible.

Please try "NOVUS" hybrid piano at our shop, "NOVUS" Please feel surprised even more.
※ "NOVUS" is a Latin word meaning "new" · "fresh"

To make a reservation for a trial
https://www2.kawai.co.jp/shop/omotesando/shidan/



Has anyone in Japan been able to go in and check it out, and perhaps ask about (at least local) pricing??

I have been waiting with bated breath for months, and doing my best to exercise patience...
Posted By: Osho

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/13/17 09:23 PM

Originally Posted by dancingfish

Has anyone in Japan been able to go in and check it out, and perhaps ask about (at least local) pricing??

I have been waiting with bated breath for months, and doing my best to exercise patience...



I have seen price reports of 900000 yen in some pictures online and also speculative price of 8000 pounds on Bonners store. Both of this indicate around $7999 MSRP in US. How much will be the 'street price' is an interesting question.

EDIT Link 1: 900000 yen (excluding tax) https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&prev=search&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ja&sp=nmt4&u=https://www.kawai.co.jp/news/20170629-2/&usg=ALkJrhi-ZeEM7w-nzjEB5vd1zzFtFv6Ueg

Link 2: 900000 yen (excluding tax) https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&prev=search&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ja&sp=nmt4&u=https://www.kawai.co.jp/news/20171004/&usg=ALkJrhj6uvs52MEQ-vjazJGRXF2W9Fc4Qw

Link 2 also shows that Novus NV10 won "Good Design Award".

Osho
Posted By: terminaldegree

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/13/17 10:44 PM

Originally Posted by Osho

One key point of comparison: Yamaha Avantgrands use actions that is found in their 5' 8" or 5' 10" grand pianos - not their 'top of the line' CFX or C7X Pianos. From what I gather, the action length and the action found in all Kawai acoustic pianos (including the top of the line Shigeru Kawai SK-EX) is essentially the same "Millenium III" action on which the Novus action is based on. So, if the Novus action feels very similar to SK-EX in person, it will be a delight to play.
Osho


As regards Kawai acoustic pianos, this is incorrect.
Posted By: EssBrace

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/13/17 11:22 PM

Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Originally Posted by Osho

One key point of comparison: Yamaha Avantgrands use actions that is found in their 5' 8" or 5' 10" grand pianos - not their 'top of the line' CFX or C7X Pianos. From what I gather, the action length and the action found in all Kawai acoustic pianos (including the top of the line Shigeru Kawai SK-EX) is essentially the same "Millenium III" action on which the Novus action is based on. So, if the Novus action feels very similar to SK-EX in person, it will be a delight to play.
Osho


As regards Kawai acoustic pianos, this is incorrect.


I don't think it's right about the Yamaha either. Yamaha doesn't make a 5'10" grand for a start. Avant Grand action has been the subject of some debate since its launch. It's from a small to medium sized grand (C1 or C3). I was told C3 by someone who was certainly in a position to know for sure although others say C1. If the Novus has the same action as a Shigeru concert grand then I'll eat my hat.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/13/17 11:44 PM

Based on the pictures, it looks like the action of a six footer rather than a concert grand.
Posted By: USSOWT

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/14/17 01:29 AM

I have read a review from someone who just tested NV10 in 2017 musicchina-expo(11/10-14/10):

Overall it is the best among all DPs;

It's sound , resonance, even the smell of wood are the most acoustic-like, even better than CLP685 and GP607;

Its keyaction feels like a cheaper one after comparing with Kawai GX grand; also GP607's keyaction is superior to NV10's, GP607's keyaction is closer to SK-7 than Kawai products, and better than LX7/17; however NV10 has a higher repetition speed than GP607.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/14/17 01:42 AM

Wait a minute, ‘The GP607’s action is better than LX7/17’? I thought these two instruments use the same action.
Posted By: USSOWT

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/14/17 01:59 AM

Originally Posted by Pete14
Wait a minute, ‘The GP607’s action is better than LX7/17’? I thought these two instruments use the same action.


The author is a LX7 owner, and he has played his LX7 for 2 years. Technically HP603/605 share the same keyaction with LX7/17 too, yet still there is a difference among these 2 groups, so I believe what he wrote.
Posted By: rach3master

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/14/17 04:23 AM

May I ask where you read this review?
Posted By: USSOWT

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/14/17 04:31 AM

Originally Posted by genuse
May I ask where you read this review?


If you can read Mandarin I can send you the link, the author also posted many photos(including NV10's control panel).
Posted By: rach3master

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/14/17 04:36 AM

I can't but Google can.

Or my Chinese parents 😁
Posted By: USSOWT

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/14/17 04:54 AM

Here you go :-)

http://tieba.baidu.com/p/5371014513...1&client_version=8.8.13&sfc=copy

The thread is still being updated with new photos, so keep checking if you want to see more.
Posted By: Osho

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/14/17 06:54 AM

Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Originally Posted by Osho

One key point of comparison: Yamaha Avantgrands use actions that is found in their 5' 8" or 5' 10" grand pianos - not their 'top of the line' CFX or C7X Pianos. From what I gather, the action length and the action found in all Kawai acoustic pianos (including the top of the line Shigeru Kawai SK-EX) is essentially the same "Millenium III" action on which the Novus action is based on. So, if the Novus action feels very similar to SK-EX in person, it will be a delight to play.
Osho


As regards Kawai acoustic pianos, this is incorrect.


You are probably correct. However, as per the Kawai acoustic piano comparison page, http://www.kawai-global.com/product_comparison/?c=34, all of their grand piano actions are "Millenium III" - all the way from the SK-EX to the lower GL end models. What does that mean? Do these grand pianos have different length actions, but basically the same mechanics?

Osho
Posted By: Osho

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/14/17 07:19 AM

Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Originally Posted by Osho

One key point of comparison: Yamaha Avantgrands use actions that is found in their 5' 8" or 5' 10" grand pianos - not their 'top of the line' CFX or C7X Pianos. From what I gather, the action length and the action found in all Kawai acoustic pianos (including the top of the line Shigeru Kawai SK-EX) is essentially the same "Millenium III" action on which the Novus action is based on. So, if the Novus action feels very similar to SK-EX in person, it will be a delight to play.
Osho


As regards Kawai acoustic pianos, this is incorrect.


I don't think it's right about the Yamaha either. Yamaha doesn't make a 5'10" grand for a start. Avant Grand action has been the subject of some debate since its launch. It's from a small to medium sized grand (C1 or C3). I was told C3 by someone who was certainly in a position to know for sure although others say C1. If the Novus has the same action as a Shigeru concert grand then I'll eat my hat.


Quiet right - As per this source, http://techland.time.com/2013/01/23/mostly-piano-not-pretender-yamahas-avantgrand-n2-a-year-later/, the Yamana AvantGrand N2 action is the same as a 5' 3" C1 Conservatory Classic Piano.

It would be interesting to compare the length of the key action in Novus against Avantgrand.

Osho
Posted By: Agent88

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/14/17 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by Osho
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Originally Posted by Osho

One key point of comparison: Yamaha Avantgrands use actions that is found in their 5' 8" or 5' 10" grand pianos - not their 'top of the line' CFX or C7X Pianos. From what I gather, the action length and the action found in all Kawai acoustic pianos (including the top of the line Shigeru Kawai SK-EX) is essentially the same "Millenium III" action on which the Novus action is based on. So, if the Novus action feels very similar to SK-EX in person, it will be a delight to play.
Osho


As regards Kawai acoustic pianos, this is incorrect.


You are probably correct. However, as per the Kawai acoustic piano comparison page, http://www.kawai-global.com/product_comparison/?c=34, all of their grand piano actions are "Millenium III" - all the way from the SK-EX to the lower GL end models. What does that mean? Do these grand pianos have different length actions, but basically the same mechanics?

Osho


I’m not well versed on Kawai’s, but Steinways, for example, have several different key lengths depending on the model. I would be surprised if Kawai did not also use longer keys in their longer grands. I seem to recall Schimmel now puts the same length keys in most of its pianos so as to preserve action feel consistency across all model grands. But don’t quote me on that.
Posted By: Bambers

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/14/17 09:47 AM

Quoting myself from two days ago... wink

Originally Posted by Bambers
Originally Posted by jfl

Key action: Novus Millenium III based vs AG C1 based. So Kawai's has a longer pivot point for response and will be less subject to humidity fluctuations due to ABS components?


From the shot of the novus action that was released back in the spring it did seem to have a longer pivot than the AGs (actually i think even GF 1/2 have slightly longer pivots than the AG actions). That said, this is not really a specific thing to the millenium III action. Actions (in terms of the bit between the capstan and the hammer) are generally the same across a line of pianos, the pivot length is a separate choice that is a mix of the minimum required to get the hammers into the correct place for optimal tone and then (in smaller pianos) a trade off between piano compactness and playing feel.


If, for example, the action is designed to work with the capstan being moved 5mm and you want a normal 10mm keydip then you only need to make sure the capstan point is half as far from the pivot as the front of the key, absolute lengths can and do vary. And no the novus looks to be no where near the lengths used in 9' pianos.
Posted By: terminaldegree

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/14/17 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by Osho
Originally Posted by terminaldegree

As regards Kawai acoustic pianos, this is incorrect.


You are probably correct. However, as per the Kawai acoustic piano comparison page, http://www.kawai-global.com/product_comparison/?c=34, all of their grand piano actions are "Millenium III" - all the way from the SK-EX to the lower GL end models. What does that mean? Do these grand pianos have different length actions, but basically the same mechanics?

Osho


Now you're getting closer - as Agent88 says, the key lengths are different, while the other mechanical materials and design elements (whippens, capstans, hammer flanges) are largely the same. Key length makes a huge difference in the feel of a concert grand action vs. a smaller piano in terms of control. (also see Piano Buyer review of Kawai GX vs RX series) Agent88 is also on the right track that Schimmel has attempted to put a full concert grand action in all sizes of their "Konzert" series grand pianos. We reviewed this in a prior Piano Buyer issue as well, and noted one of the negative repercussions of trying to fit a big action in a small grand is what's done to the shape and proportions of the instrument to accommodate.

I would also suspect that the real SK-EX is probably subject to greater levels of quality control checks, additional regulation at the factory, and more time allowed in the assembly process to make sure everything's sorted out to the nth degree before it leaves the factory, compared with a low-end GL-10 model. This accounts for a lot as well, and doesn't always compute with buyers who only look at spec sheets...
Posted By: Osho

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/14/17 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Originally Posted by Osho
Originally Posted by terminaldegree

As regards Kawai acoustic pianos, this is incorrect.


You are probably correct. However, as per the Kawai acoustic piano comparison page, http://www.kawai-global.com/product_comparison/?c=34, all of their grand piano actions are "Millenium III" - all the way from the SK-EX to the lower GL end models. What does that mean? Do these grand pianos have different length actions, but basically the same mechanics?

Osho


Now you're getting closer - as Agent88 says, the key lengths are different, while the other mechanical materials and design elements (whippens, capstans, hammer flanges) are largely the same. Key length makes a huge difference in the feel of a concert grand action vs. a smaller piano in terms of control. (also see Piano Buyer review of Kawai GX vs RX series)


As per https://youtu.be/NUCaUKdBlKU?t=108 (time 1:48), the presenter says "This is the action found in every GX BLAK series grand piano" - GX series spans from GX-1 (5' 5") to GX-7 (7' 6"). So, doesn't that imply that all of GX series actions have the same key length?

Given that key length makes a huge difference in the feel of a concert grand action, do the Piano manufacturers publish the key length?

And, more to the topic of this conversation, I am interested in knowing what is the key length of Novus NV10 and which of the GX series Piano does it roughly correspond to (assuming all GX series do not have identical key lenghts).

Osho
Posted By: jfl

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/14/17 06:32 PM

If the NV10 action goes all the way back to the rear of the cabinet, I'd be satisfied based on specifications alone. In a baby grand DP form factor (N3X), a full concert grand key length would obviously be more desirable but I require a spinet form factor and would be very willing to accept a good mid-grand acoustic action. The action is paramount here but there is some compromise to be expected. I'll be judging on the whole package. Still hoping Kawai will publish detailed specs soon though. Dying to play one, but I called my nearest Kawai dealer and he told me to check back with him mid-November...

I translated that Music-China link http://tieba.baidu.com/p/5371014513...1&client_version=8.8.13&sfc=copy. Didn't get much out of it, but I'm wondering if that guy is just used to Roland actions. I have a Roland DP and I've played the LX17 (not the GP607) and I've played the N2 and N3 AGs. No comparison in my opinion. The AGs feel and sound reasonably close to the Yamaha C6 I play every other week, except for the artificial damper resonance which I hope has been fixed in the 'X' series. The Rolands don't, though they're excellent DPs at the price point. YMMV. I've been waiting for the N2X but if the NV10 action is a step up from the AG then it gets interesting.When I visit the Kawai dealer I'll be curious to try the CA98. Not considering it but curious about the transducer/soundboard.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/14/17 06:33 PM

Originally Posted by Osho


As per https://youtu.be/NUCaUKdBlKU?t=108 (time 1:48), the presenter says "This is the action found in every GX BLAK series grand piano" - GX series spans from GX-1 (5' 5") to GX-7 (7' 6"). So, doesn't that imply that all of GX series actions have the same key length?

There are keysticks and there are actions. Some concert grands will use a Renner action but afaik they all use their own keys. So you can mate an action to keys of different length to fit in different pianos.
Posted By: terminaldegree

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/14/17 06:37 PM

Osho,
They do not.

As I mentioned at the end of my post, there's much more to it than just specifications and marketing. Back in the old days of the piano industry, there was a publication called Ancott, that used to list the length of the #1 bass string on the piano. People marketed that point really vociferously when it suited them. Problem was, there was not a strict correlation between string length and bass sound quality-- there was more to the "recipe" of a piano that made it successful or not. However, many pianos over the years were sold because of their "superior" #1 bass string length...
Posted By: ando

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/14/17 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by Osho


As per https://youtu.be/NUCaUKdBlKU?t=108 (time 1:48), the presenter says "This is the action found in every GX BLAK series grand piano" - GX series spans from GX-1 (5' 5") to GX-7 (7' 6"). So, doesn't that imply that all of GX series actions have the same key length?

There are keysticks and there are actions. Some concert grands will use a Renner action but afaik they all use their own keys. So you can mate an action to keys of different length to fit in different pianos.


Just for interest's sake, quite a few companies are outsourcing their keysticks to this Kluge. Even some of the big ones like Steinway Hamburgs.

http://www.kluge-klaviaturen.de/en/index-en.php (I hear their keywork is a lot better than their website).
Posted By: Agent88

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/14/17 08:18 PM

Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by Osho


As per https://youtu.be/NUCaUKdBlKU?t=108 (time 1:48), the presenter says "This is the action found in every GX BLAK series grand piano" - GX series spans from GX-1 (5' 5") to GX-7 (7' 6"). So, doesn't that imply that all of GX series actions have the same key length?

There are keysticks and there are actions. Some concert grands will use a Renner action but afaik they all use their own keys. So you can mate an action to keys of different length to fit in different pianos.


Just for interest's sake, quite a few companies are outsourcing their keysticks to this Kluge. Even some of the big ones like Steinway Hamburgs.

http://www.kluge-klaviaturen.de/en/index-en.php (I hear their keywork is a lot better than their website).


I’m not sure Steinway is “outsourcing” there. Though I suppose it depends on how you look at it. If I’m not mistaken Steinway owns (wholly) Kluge.
Posted By: ando

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/14/17 08:47 PM

Originally Posted by Agent88
Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by Osho


As per https://youtu.be/NUCaUKdBlKU?t=108 (time 1:48), the presenter says "This is the action found in every GX BLAK series grand piano" - GX series spans from GX-1 (5' 5") to GX-7 (7' 6"). So, doesn't that imply that all of GX series actions have the same key length?

There are keysticks and there are actions. Some concert grands will use a Renner action but afaik they all use their own keys. So you can mate an action to keys of different length to fit in different pianos.


Just for interest's sake, quite a few companies are outsourcing their keysticks to this Kluge. Even some of the big ones like Steinway Hamburgs.

http://www.kluge-klaviaturen.de/en/index-en.php (I hear their keywork is a lot better than their website).


I’m not sure Steinway is “outsourcing” there. Though I suppose it depends on how you look at it. If I’m not mistaken Steinway owns (wholly) Kluge.

I look at it as outsourcing. Kluge was making keyboards long before they were acquired by Steinway. Steinway stopped making keys and started getting them from Kluge, that's outsourcing. Then they bought the company. For me, just because you buy a company doesn't mean they are part of you. Their workforce is not shared and neither is their factory. Also Kluge still sells to other manufacturers. They still operate as their own company. Companies change hands all the time. I still say they have outsourced the work rather than doing it in-house at Steinway.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/14/17 09:14 PM

Originally Posted by ando
I look at it as outsourcing. Kluge was making keyboards long before they were acquired by Steinway. Steinway stopped making keys and started getting them from Kluge, that's outsourcing. Then they bought the company. For me, just because you buy a company doesn't mean they are part of you. Their workforce is not shared and neither is their factory. Also Kluge still sells to other manufacturers. They still operate as their own company. Companies change hands all the time. I still say they have outsourced the work rather than doing it in-house at Steinway.


You learn something new every day!

I didn't know about Kluge, and I'm glad Steinway, though they bought the company, didn't just shutter the 3p sales busniess (a move Apple tends to make with acquisitions to align with their exclusive vertical integration strategy).
Posted By: jfl

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/14/17 10:17 PM

CA98/CA97 manual: http://www.kawai-global.com/data/manuals/CA98_CA78_EN_R100.pdf Look forward to being able to read the NV10 manual, but can't find it yet. For now, if someone from Kawai could verify that the Novus electronics are the same that would be a great help.
Posted By: jokke

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/15/17 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by Frédéric L
It is quite surprising to see some nowadays high-end pianos (Kawai NV10, Yamaha N3X), with a such different advance in GUI (gorgeous color LCD vs 3x7 segment LED digits) !


Nevertheless, it will most certainly be really cumbersome compared to any Android device or iPhone. smile As a rule of thumb, most non-UI centric appliances seem to be about a decade behind state of the art in UIs. Good example are car dashboard controls, it's silly that a "dashboard computer" that might cost $2500 in a BMW have inferior screens and user experience than a $100 Chinese tablet. Same goes for those parking assistants with $5 worth of cameras and 300x price tag.

But I'm straying off the topic. The Novus 10 videos look very nice, and UI is definitely state of the art in digital pianos. Really hoping they can ramp up production so I can get one in six months even here in Finland!
Posted By: Gérard

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/19/17 09:43 AM

http://www.euroconcert.fr/piano-num...Hz7L81gIVhBobCh1wvgnqEAAYASAAEgJEsvD_BwE

In France, Euroconcert say :

"kawai se lance à son tour dans le piano hybride et lance un modèle novus nv 10 somptueux ! doté d'une véritable mécanique de piano à queue, d'un clavier en bois avec touches blanches en ivoire de synthèse et touches noires en ébène, il propose un toucher absomument identique à celui d'un piano à queue acoustique. la sonorité proposée du fameux piano à queue Shigeru kawai de concert SK-EX est bluffante de réalisme. idéal pour les citadins en recherche d'un vrai toucher de piano à queue sans pouvoir en assumer le volume sonore, kawai s'est allié avec la fameuse marque japonaise onkyo et propose ici une amplification vraiment remarquable. ce piano novus nv 10 saura trouver sa place sur le marché des pianos numériques haut de gamme tant il séduit par l'excellence de sa fabrication. sa sortie est programmée pour janvier 2018."
Posted By: Osho

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/19/17 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by Gérard
http://www.euroconcert.fr/piano-num...Hz7L81gIVhBobCh1wvgnqEAAYASAAEgJEsvD_BwE

In France, Euroconcert say :

"kawai se lance à son tour dans le piano hybride et lance un modèle novus nv 10 somptueux ! doté d'une véritable mécanique de piano à queue, d'un clavier en bois avec touches blanches en ivoire de synthèse et touches noires en ébène, il propose un toucher absomument identique à celui d'un piano à queue acoustique. la sonorité proposée du fameux piano à queue Shigeru kawai de concert SK-EX est bluffante de réalisme. idéal pour les citadins en recherche d'un vrai toucher de piano à queue sans pouvoir en assumer le volume sonore, kawai s'est allié avec la fameuse marque japonaise onkyo et propose ici une amplification vraiment remarquable. ce piano novus nv 10 saura trouver sa place sur le marché des pianos numériques haut de gamme tant il séduit par l'excellence de sa fabrication. sa sortie est programmée pour janvier 2018."


Google translate -> "its release is scheduled for January 2018".

Does Kawai release new products at a different cadence in Japan, US and Europe? If so, is there a 'typical' precedence?

Osho
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/19/17 02:46 PM

I'm guessing this has more to do with the fact that the Novus is a very low volume, bespoke halo product. They are not making 500k units and distributing through their usual channels. I wouldn't expect the Novus to be comparable to an ES110 launch distro.
Posted By: PikaPianist

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/19/17 11:35 PM

Originally Posted by Osho
Originally Posted by Gérard
http://www.euroconcert.fr/piano-num...Hz7L81gIVhBobCh1wvgnqEAAYASAAEgJEsvD_BwE

In France, Euroconcert say :

"kawai se lance à son tour dans le piano hybride et lance un modèle novus nv 10 somptueux ! doté d'une véritable mécanique de piano à queue, d'un clavier en bois avec touches blanches en ivoire de synthèse et touches noires en ébène, il propose un toucher absomument identique à celui d'un piano à queue acoustique. la sonorité proposée du fameux piano à queue Shigeru kawai de concert SK-EX est bluffante de réalisme. idéal pour les citadins en recherche d'un vrai toucher de piano à queue sans pouvoir en assumer le volume sonore, kawai s'est allié avec la fameuse marque japonaise onkyo et propose ici une amplification vraiment remarquable. ce piano novus nv 10 saura trouver sa place sur le marché des pianos numériques haut de gamme tant il séduit par l'excellence de sa fabrication. sa sortie est programmée pour janvier 2018."


Google translate -> "its release is scheduled for January 2018".

Does Kawai release new products at a different cadence in Japan, US and Europe? If so, is there a 'typical' precedence?

Osho

For anyone in Australia looking to get one, I recently got a notification from Kawai Australia informing us that the Australia release of the Novus NV10 will be scheduled for January 2018 too.
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/20/17 08:29 AM

It seems to be possible to pre-order the NV10 at least from stores in the UK and NL. The site of the UK store says that "The Kawai Novus NV10 is scheduled to start shipping in very limited numbers during October 2017. Kawai are encouraging customers to pre-order their Novus NV10 as there will be a waiting list during the first six months of production." The listed price is 8500 EUR in the NL and aprox. 8000 GBP in the UK.
Posted By: PianoGuyStuart

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/20/17 08:32 AM

Originally Posted by arc_turus
It seems to be possible to pre-order the NV10 at least from stores in the UK and NL. The site of the UK store says that "The Kawai Novus NV10 is scheduled to start shipping in very limited numbers during October 2017. Kawai are encouraging customers to pre-order their Novus NV10 as there will be a waiting list during the first six months of production." The listed price is 8500 EUR in the NL and aprox. 8000 GBP in the UK.


Still, you think Kawaii would ship shop models to key shops asap.

Would anyone pay £8000 for a piano without first trying it?
Posted By: Osho

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/20/17 08:33 AM

Originally Posted by arc_turus
It seems to be possible to pre-order the NV10 at least from stores in the UK and NL. The site of the UK store says that "The Kawai Novus NV10 is scheduled to start shipping in very limited numbers during October 2017. Kawai are encouraging customers to pre-order their Novus NV10 as there will be a waiting list during the first six months of production." The listed price is 8500 EUR in the NL and aprox. 8000 GBP in the UK.


Is that incl. VAT or without? Any idea of the street price?

Osho
Posted By: ando

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/20/17 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by arc_turus
The listed price is 8500 EUR in the NL and aprox. 8000 GBP in the UK.

Certainly a big step up from the original suggestion that it would be $8000USD. It's got to be more like $10-11,000USD. That means around $14,000AUS - pity, that puts it well out of my price range.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/20/17 03:24 PM

Keep in mind that the MSRP for the N2 is $15,000, yet it sells for about $8,300 plus taxes and delivery. As a matter of fact, I was once quoted $7,500 (taxes/delivery included) for the N2. At that point the N2 had been on the market for about a year or two. Since then the price went up to the current selling price.
An MSRP of $11,000 for the Novus means that some will pay close to that (suckers), whilst others could potentially get it for much less. So, negotiate wisely, and don’t believe a word coming from the dealer in terms of ‘special of the month’ deals. The other common trick is ‘full price for future trade in’; which they will most certainly honor; however, you’ll end up paying much more for the new instrument (close to MSRP, or more if the dealer really hates your guts).
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/20/17 04:26 PM

Good to know, thanks Pete!
Posted By: Pologuy

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/20/17 04:43 PM

So it appears that if you take off the 19% VAT - it comes down to $8500 US dollars.
Posted By: newer player

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/20/17 05:58 PM


Originally Posted by Pologuy
So it appears that if you take off the 19% VAT - it comes down to $8500 US dollars.



Then add US federal import duties and your local sales tax (which gets you pretty close to 19% in many places).

More importantly, Kawai's wholesale prices will probably change based on shipping costs, regional warranty terms, and what Kawai James decides are "appropriate" regional prices.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/20/17 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by newer player

, and what Kawai James decides are "appropriate" regional prices.

Lol don't let it get to his head smile
Posted By: Pologuy

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/20/17 06:06 PM

LOL smile

So does anyone have an "educated" guess as to what this piano could be had for - i.e. street price?

After initial launch that is...
Posted By: Bambers

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/20/17 06:34 PM

Well in the uk, the n2 RRP is £11,700 with most retailers offering it for just under £10k. If the listed novus price is £8k then it's clearly sitting between the N1 and 2, which seems excellent value to me. (Given the current market)
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/20/17 07:09 PM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
Good to know, thanks Pete!


You’re welcome. smile
Posted By: Pologuy

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/21/17 01:07 AM

I think $7999 is a "fair" list price...

No...?
Posted By: jfl

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/21/17 03:35 AM

http://www.kawai-global.com/news/kawai-announces-novus-nv10-hybrid-digital-piano/

http://www.kawai-global.com/product/nv10/
Posted By: jfl

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/21/17 03:40 AM

For comparison - AG/N2 specs: https://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical_instruments/pianos/avantgrand/n2/specs.html#product-tabs
Posted By: ando

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/21/17 04:01 AM

Originally Posted by Pologuy
I think $7999 is a "fair" list price...

No...?


It would for you, except it would be incredibly unfair if the USA got that price when the rest of the world is paying substantially more. I expect this piano to go for $13-14k in Australia, which is more like $10.5-11kUSD. It's frustrating the way large corporations give such favourable deals to the US when they really gouge other, smaller nations. I know about economy of scale and all, but we pay so much more than you guys do for everything.
Posted By: Pologuy

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/21/17 04:06 AM

I think anything over $8000 is going to be a tough sell...

And $10,000 is going to be a really tough pill to swallow...

Posted By: jfl

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/21/17 04:16 AM

Official announcement: http://www.kawai-global.com/news/kawai-announces-novus-nv10-hybrid-digital-piano/

Specs and user manual (finally!): http://www.kawai-global.com/product/nv10/

On paper, the 'old' N2 seems to have an edge on speaker/amplifiers, but the Novus seems a lot more sophisticated. Hopefully there will be interesting stuff on YouTube as these hit the international markets and maybe showing up in US stores by January.
Posted By: Pologuy

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/21/17 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by Gérard
http://www.euroconcert.fr/piano-num...Hz7L81gIVhBobCh1wvgnqEAAYASAAEgJEsvD_BwE

In France, Euroconcert say :

"kawai se lance à son tour dans le piano hybride et lance un modèle novus nv 10 somptueux ! doté d'une véritable mécanique de piano à queue, d'un clavier en bois avec touches blanches en ivoire de synthèse et touches noires en ébène, il propose un toucher absomument identique à celui d'un piano à queue acoustique. la sonorité proposée du fameux piano à queue Shigeru kawai de concert SK-EX est bluffante de réalisme. idéal pour les citadins en recherche d'un vrai toucher de piano à queue sans pouvoir en assumer le volume sonore, kawai s'est allié avec la fameuse marque japonaise onkyo et propose ici une amplification vraiment remarquable. ce piano novus nv 10 saura trouver sa place sur le marché des pianos numériques haut de gamme tant il séduit par l'excellence de sa fabrication. sa sortie est programmée pour janvier 2018."


I noticed that they gave the NV10 6 out of 6 stars for sound quality and touch - but 4 out of 6 stars for price vs. qualities of the piano - and 1 out of 6 stars for features.



Posted By: madshi

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/21/17 03:28 PM

You can always use http://translate.google.com.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/21/17 03:32 PM

Who grades on a 6-star scale? You can't even get a perfect 5 out of 7.
Posted By: Pologuy

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 10/21/17 03:48 PM

Those Onkyo speakers and speaker stands made for the NV10 are sexy as %^&*!

But at $5,000 for the speakers and stands - not sure how many they will sell.

http://www.kawai-onkyo.com/NOVUS_preview/
Posted By: Gérard

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/09/17 12:17 PM

Patience wink
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/09/17 01:46 PM

I’m running out of the patience! mad
Posted By: Skjalg

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/09/17 01:59 PM

I will try it out on Friday 15th of December. 6 days left smile
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/10/17 04:22 PM

I’ve been having nightmares where the Novus briefly appears in front of me, but when I try to reach for it, the AvantGrand gets in the way and then falls onto my flabby self; that’s when I wake up sobbing uncontrollably. Please, have mercy on us, Kawai: at least show us a new promotional video!
Posted By: Hendrik42

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/10/17 04:54 PM

In any case, the German shops do not seem to have a price yet. Because it was mentioned in one of the videos from Musikmesse by a Kawai sales person, I'd expect a price below 8000 EUR. In any case a price for which you can get a nice used Kawai grand -- not a SK, though ;-)
Posted By: Osho

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/10/17 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14
I’ve been having nightmares where the Novus briefly appears in front of me, but when I try to reach for it, the AvantGrand gets in the way and then falls onto my flabby self; that’s when I wake up sobbing uncontrollably. Please, have mercy on us, Kawai: at least show us a new promotional video!

I heard from a local dealer that NV10 will debut in Los Angeles at the end of January. My reading of this is that the USA introduction will be aligned with NAAM 2018 - happening January 25-28 2018 in Anaheim CA.

It is also rumored that Yamaha will announce N2X (and possibly N1X) at NAAM 2018 as well.

So, basically get good sleep until NAAM for those in the USA smile.

Osho
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/10/17 05:47 PM

Thanks for the update, Osho.
Posted By: Dave Horne

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/10/17 06:04 PM

I contacted my Yamaha dealer about the Kawai NV10 and he informed me it will be available here the end of January 2018.
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/10/17 07:00 PM

Originally Posted by Hendrik42
In any case, the German shops do not seem to have a price yet. Because it was mentioned in one of the videos from Musikmesse by a Kawai sales person, I'd expect a price below 8000 EUR. In any case a price for which you can get a nice used Kawai grand -- not a SK, though ;-)

Actually, there are German prices already. I posted that a bit further up in the Thread. The German MRSP is 9590€, the first retail price I found online is 8999€, at Kierstein.de.
Posted By: PianoGuyStuart

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/12/17 10:12 AM

Been out for months, and yet no-one seems to have played it.

It is the Loch Ness Monster of Pianos!
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/12/17 02:55 PM

I know it's all fun and games, but Yamaha is wrapping up a big sale on their hybrids (where the price being thrown around is ~8k USD for the N2), possibly in anticipation of an N1X/N2X intro. For those actually in the market, that's quite a temptation, especially without much new word about the NV10.
Posted By: madshi

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/12/17 03:03 PM

The N2 is still 13725 USD here in Germany. Ouch. I'm very curious how the NV10 will stack up to the N1/2/3(X).
Posted By: Hendrik42

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/16/17 07:46 PM

@JoBert ah, right, kirstein.de is listing it and they say "Available from beginning of January".
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/18/17 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by Skjalg
I will try it out on Friday 15th of December. 6 days left smile


Did you get to try out the Novus?
Posted By: Skjalg

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/18/17 09:35 PM

Yes I did try it. Did not have that much time, but I took a few random pictures that I posted here
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/galleries/2697968/kawai-novus-nv10.html

My first impressions were
* very nice keyboard with excellent control
* the foot pedals I found excellent
* the bass was better than I had expected
* the user interface I did not like that much, mostly because of lack of contrast, without glasses I was a bit lost, but I managed to navigate it without too much trouble.
* to me it was good looking, with several nice details, it is designed to be up against a wall from the look of the back, which is Ok by me.
* there was a very noticable increase in perceived dB at the point you go from damped to undamped, an F#, but just that one note.
* I noticed a similiair behaviour on a Shigeru Kawai SK3-L next to it.
* I did not have time to try the headphones
* I liked the volume knob and that you could regulate the metronome to a different volume than the piano
* overall I enjoyed it a lot, but is a supplement and not a substitute for the real thing
* well done Kawai
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/18/17 09:46 PM

Thanks for the info and pictures, SKjalg.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/18/17 09:49 PM

+1, thanks Skjalg.

I'm eager to get my hands on one to try, but my local shop won't have one until Jan-Feb.
Posted By: rach3master

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/18/17 09:53 PM

Thanks for the info. Have you had any experience playing with the Avantgrand series, as a basis for comparison?
Posted By: Skjalg

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/19/17 05:33 AM

I tried the complete Avant Grand series in its previous incarnation about 2-3 years ago. So it would not be a fair comparison. I remeber considering the N3/N2 at the time. Tha last half year I have tried almost all normal grands available to me, and from that I can say the action of the Novus is superb, which in my case would be the most important criterion for a digital piano, next after price point.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/19/17 06:57 AM

Skj, have you compared the Novus action to Kawai acoustic grands? I would guess it feels like a GX/GL as opposed to an SK, but would love to hear your thoughts.
Posted By: Skjalg

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/19/17 08:07 AM

I did not have the A versus B mind when I played, but did briefly play the Shigeru Kawai SK3-L and the Kawai GX-6 as well (I have played them quite a bit before). They were both different from the Novus, but if I played all three of them without sound, I do not think I could have said the Novus was a digital instrument. I would have been able to tell them apart I guess, but it felt very much like the real thing (and it is, sort of). The Shigeru Kawai shines in its sum of parts. I overheared one customer that preferred the GX-6 over the SK-3 and SK-7; so it was good. Mostly to to with the body of sound I guess. Personally I would have taken the SK3 over the GX-6 if they had been my only two options.

When it comes to controlling the different levels of velocity it was no difference to a grand in general. It felt very natural.
Posted By: madshi

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/19/17 08:20 AM

DId you have a chance to compare the NV10 action to the Grand Feel actions of the Kawai CA models?
Posted By: Skjalg

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/19/17 08:35 AM

I have a Kawai CA97@home, so I know it very well. In the shop I did a brief comparison between a CS11 and the Novus, and while I love my CA-97, the difference is like night and day. When compared side by side, I was almost shocked. In relative terms and for the lack of a better analogy it was like running with sneakers versus boots.
Posted By: madshi

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/19/17 08:49 AM

That's very interesting! To be honest, I'm not sure if you're saying that sneakers or boots are "better". Personally, I prefer sneakers... smile Anyway, could you describe in a few more sentences how the Novus action felt better/different to you compared to the CS11/CA97 action?

Thank you!!
Posted By: Skjalg

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/19/17 09:20 AM

For running, sneakers would be the obvious choice, as for playing, the Novus would be the obvious choice, money aside. Novus = Sneakers in other words; your preferred choice.

I assume you have played a grand piano, and while the CA-line does a good job simulating the feeling of a grand, the Novus does an oustanding job in this respect. It is the sensation it gives your fingers when playing.
It felt like the real thing, I think that says it all. The CA-action does not, but it is a very nice substitue never the less.

Mind you, I had 40 minutes in the shop as I was on my way to other activities. It was a lot to take in for such a short time.
Posted By: Pologuy

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/19/17 05:31 PM

What was the price tag?
Posted By: Skjalg

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/19/17 06:34 PM

The price displayed on the piano is shown in the first picture, and was the same as the MSRP which I posted here
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...10-hybrid-digital-piano.html#Post2689118
They would trade in my current CA-97 if I wanted, but I did not ask details.

According to the salesperson the demand had been far greater from dealerships than anticipated by Kawai. To which extent that holds true I do not know.

Personally I would like both this and an accoustic grand, but that may be a hard sell@home :-),

The width and depth makes it impossible to place where my current CA-97 is, and the next available position I intended to put a grand when I have saved up... a plus to the CA-line I guess; easier to place ;-)

Posted By: Pologuy

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/19/17 08:09 PM

Well, at $11,500 U.S. - it's a non-starter.
Posted By: Skjalg

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/19/17 08:29 PM

It is slightly cheaper than the Yamaha N2. I have seen the Novus online for $9,500 U.S here. But I would much prefer a local dealer for such expensive equipment.
Posted By: madshi

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/19/17 08:43 PM

The N2 has better speaker & amplification specs, though. The NV10 seems to roughly match N1 speakers/amps, well at least as far as naked specs go...
Posted By: ando

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/19/17 09:41 PM

Originally Posted by Pologuy
Well, at $11,500 U.S. - it's a non-starter.


The price will probably come down and also be responsive to bargaining. If it's around $10k and it's an exceptional piano, why would it be a non-starter then? You can't be too strict on the price because it comes down to what you're getting. In the scheme of things, anybody who will pay $9k for a piano but not $10k, regardless of the perceived quality they are getting for that money, is being too rigid in their thinking. Also, given that people tend to upgrade again after a while if they are dissatisfied with what they have, it makes sense to buy for the longer term, and if that means paying a bit more now to keep it for longer, it makes good financial sense. I really don't think people who can buy a $9k digital lack the financial resources to buy a $10k digital. It might come down to some personal sacrifice to get there, but you should buy the piano you really want.
Posted By: madshi

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/19/17 10:10 PM

Here in Germany prices are pretty much fixed at a certain discount from MSRP that somehow all dealers seem to "agree" on. No chance for bargaining at all. MSRP for NV10 seems to be 9590 EUR, while MSRP for Yamaha N1 is 7325 EUR. And the N1 is heavier discounted than most Kawai DPs. That means the street price difference between NV10 and N1 will probably be more than 2500 EUR here.
Posted By: Osho

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/19/17 10:13 PM

I would suggest wait for the NAAM 2018 announcement when N2X and/or N1X are likely to be announced. This will put download pressure on the NV10 price.

regards,
Osho
Posted By: Pologuy

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/20/17 01:54 AM

According to some on here a Yamaha N2 can be had for $8,000.

A Yamaha N1 can be had for less than $6500.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/20/17 02:41 PM

This is true, and it has nothing to do with the expected release of the N2/1X. The N2 has been selling for about $8,000 to $8,300 before taxes and delivery.
So don’t worry too much about the purported high MSRP on the Novus; it’ll cost much, much less as it relates to the U.S.
Posted By: madshi

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/20/17 02:47 PM

Not everyone lives in the U.S.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/20/17 02:54 PM

Don't be too optimistic here. Neither Kawai nor Yamaha is aiming for a race to the bottom with their ultra premium lines. The N2 is seeing massive discounts most likely to deplete stock before the N2x is announced. When that happens, it will go back to its ~$11000 list price and sit there for years, you won't see the firesale deals we're all seeing now. Same with the NV10 I think, it will be released at list and you won't find huge discounts, at least for several years.

I am seriously considering picking up an N2 at sale price this month....since it is less than a lot of people try to sell used....and I'd use a vst with it. If I hold off or miss out, it'll be a fight between the N2X and the NV10 at full price I think.
Posted By: Bambers

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/20/17 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by Pologuy
Well, at $11,500 U.S. - it's a non-starter.



I think it's pretty clear that trying to judge US prices from European ones is a non starter. There's huge disparity even on existing lines to make any kind of realistic guess. It's curious that the N1/2 seem to be going for some fairly hefty discounts in the US but certainly advertised prices in the UK remain the usual 'discount' on the never actually charged in the first place RRP.

Perhaps you could get a good deal with some talking but usually when they're clearing lines they will drop the advertised price, as was done with the clp 500 series etc.
Posted By: Dave Horne

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/20/17 03:44 PM

Has it been mentioned which specific Kawai grand the NV10 is based on? Has anyone measured the length of the keys\pivot point?

If this has been mentioned, my apologies; these threads get so long and I don't feel like reading War and Peace.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/20/17 05:03 PM

In terms of length I don’t know if it’s based on a specific model, but it seems like the key lengths/pivot points are based on the dimensions of a six footer. The AvantGrand seems more like the action of a baby grand.
Posted By: Alexander Borro

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/20/17 05:11 PM

Originally Posted by Dave Horne
Has it been mentioned which specific Kawai grand the NV10 is based on? Has anyone measured the length of the keys\pivot point?

If this has been mentioned, my apologies; these threads get so long and I don't feel like reading War and Peace.


Only from a vague memory, I may well be wrong but I heard a GX2 mentioned.

You can google pictures of both of these actions easily enough and they do look remarkably similar ( apart from the virtual hammer replacement obviously), even the pivot length seems in the same sort of ballpark just judging by eye, but it is hard to judge from skewed perspectives.

You can eyeball the photos and see where you spot the differences smile , for example, one thing that did stand out on the lowest bass key in the novus there are two counterweights that can be seen embedded in the side of the key, but the GX2 didn't have those, or perhaps they are underneath ?. So who knows, they may well similar but weighted differently.

Also if memory serves me right, someone mentioned the pivot is longer than what is found in avantgrand N series, but I am not keen enough to start piecing together pictures and measuring it with a ruler like some seem to do. In the end it is what it is, if it feels good when trying one out, that's all that matters.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/20/17 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
Don't be too optimistic here. Neither Kawai nor Yamaha is aiming for a race to the bottom with their ultra premium lines. The N2 is seeing massive discounts most likely to deplete stock before the N2x is announced. When that happens, it will go back to its ~$11000 list price and sit there for years, you won't see the firesale deals we're all seeing now. Same with the NV10 I think, it will be released at list and you won't find huge discounts, at least for several years.

I am seriously considering picking up an N2 at sale price this month....since it is less than a lot of people try to sell used....and I'd use a vst with it. If I hold off or miss out, it'll be a fight between the N2X and the NV10 at full price I think.


Gombessa, unless you’re getting the N2 for $7,000 or less, you should definitely wait for the Novus. Just to give you some perspective, I once got a $7,500 quote for the N2 (many years ago). Most recently (two years ago) I was quoted $9,000 including taxes and delivery.
Some here have posted similar prices/quotes for the N2. The N2 will be even cheaper once the N2X comes out, so why buy now?
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/20/17 05:33 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14

Gombessa, unless you’re getting the N2 for $7,000 or less, you should definitely wait for the Novus.


That's really what is giving me the most pause. I do want to give the Novus the chance to impress.

Originally Posted by Pete14
The N2 will be even cheaper once the N2X comes out, so why buy now?


Just from watching the market for new releases, I'm thinking there is a very narrow window for this, particularly in high-income, high-population areas like the two US coasts. I don't think we're going to see the N2 and the N2X side by side, with $8000 and $11000 price tags on them, at least for long. I think Yamaha will do what they can to sell out of the N2, and then announce the N2X, and in the window between the announcement and delivery, fully deplete their legacy stock. All the while, the older versions will be harder and harder to find, and you'll have to buy and ship at distance, without a chance to inspect the unit you're purchasing for yourself.

Maybe not, but that's how I feel things tend to go in this market.
Posted By: Pologuy

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/20/17 07:06 PM

At a list price over $10,000 - it doesn't really matter how "good" or "bad" the NV10 is... it just isn't worth it for most.

From the pictures posted by Skjalg the NV10 has obviously been up in that store for awhile - as you can see quite a bit of dust sitting on it.

The fact that it has been out for over 2 1/2 months now and basically no reviews - doesn't bode well.

Why would anyone pay near $10,000 for the NV10 - when you can get the Kawai top of the line CP1 for $14,000 - or a Yamaha N2 for $8,000?
Posted By: Osho

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/20/17 07:07 PM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by Pete14

Gombessa, unless you’re getting the N2 for $7,000 or less, you should definitely wait for the Novus.


That's really what is giving me the most pause. I do want to give the Novus the chance to impress.

Originally Posted by Pete14
The N2 will be even cheaper once the N2X comes out, so why buy now?


Just from watching the market for new releases, I'm thinking there is a very narrow window for this, particularly in high-income, high-population areas like the two US coasts. I don't think we're going to see the N2 and the N2X side by side, with $8000 and $11000 price tags on them, at least for long. I think Yamaha will do what they can to sell out of the N2, and then announce the N2X, and in the window between the announcement and delivery, fully deplete their legacy stock. All the while, the older versions will be harder and harder to find, and you'll have to buy and ship at distance, without a chance to inspect the unit you're purchasing for yourself.

Maybe not, but that's how I feel things tend to go in this market.


I would keep an eye out in craigslist/ebay for used N2s as well - they may start showing up there if N2X is worth an upgrade for existing N2 users.

Osho
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/20/17 07:29 PM

Originally Posted by Osho


I would keep an eye out in craigslist/ebay for used N2s as well - they may start showing up there if N2X is worth an upgrade for existing N2 users.

Osho


I've actually been watching CL for a couple of months, looking in nearby metro areas for any avantgrand or n1/n2/n3 offerings. Nothing but vendor sales in all this time, so I'm wondering if that may not be the best venue for a top-end digital piano (I suspect most AG sellers may be trading in to shops).

Anyways, I don't mean to hijack this thread with used DP search chat, but I appreciate the advice/discussion on this point. If things continue to go the way they've been, the Novus will be available shortly anyways and I'll be able to factor that in to my decision.
Posted By: Maartin

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/20/17 09:06 PM

Pologuy, I'm sure it was cutting edge when it came out (which by the look of the front panel and its CP stablemates was over 10 years ago) , but CP1 is old technology now, for both both sound and action. You're paying for the real grand piano case there.

http://www.kawaius.com/digital/CP/cp_1.html
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/20/17 09:14 PM

Originally Posted by Maartin
Pologuy, I'm sure it was cutting edge when it came out (which by the look of the front panel and its CP stablemates was over 10 years ago) , but CP1 is old technology now, for both both sound and action. You're paying for the real grand piano case there.

http://www.kawaius.com/digital/CP/cp_1.html

Plus, it's not sold in all regions. For example not in Germany, as far as I can tell.
Posted By: Pologuy

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/20/17 09:37 PM

Originally Posted by Maartin
Pologuy, I'm sure it was cutting edge when it came out (which by the look of the front panel and its CP stablemates was over 10 years ago) , but CP1 is old technology now, for both both sound and action. You're paying for the real grand piano case there.

http://www.kawaius.com/digital/CP/cp_1.html


This may be a good time for Kawai James to chime in...

As far as action - the NV10 is most likely a little better.

As far as sound however - having owned two previous versions of the CP1 (the CP205 and CP207) - I would be very surprised if the NV10 - with its lower power rating and smaller size and number speaker specs - had a better grand piano sound than the CP1.

The CP1 has a real spruce soundboard and the speakers are connected to that spruce soundboard to get some of the same soundboard resonance that an acoustic grand piano gives.

The CP1 speakers are also roughly the same distance away from the top of the grand cabinet rim as an acoustic grand - which also adds to the resonance that an acoustic grand piano gives.

The CP1 has 9 speakers with 200 watts and a 10" subwoofer - strategically located at various points throughout the grand cabinet and spruce soundboard - the NV10 has 135 watts and a 6" woofer.

Posted By: EssBrace

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/20/17 10:05 PM

Originally Posted by Pologuy
Originally Posted by Maartin
Pologuy, I'm sure it was cutting edge when it came out (which by the look of the front panel and its CP stablemates was over 10 years ago) , but CP1 is old technology now, for both both sound and action. You're paying for the real grand piano case there.

http://www.kawaius.com/digital/CP/cp_1.html


This many be a good time for Kawai James to chime in...

As far as action - the NV10 is most likely a little better.


Chime in to say what exactly?

I'm finding some of your posts to be a little bit troll-like to be honest. Why are you sowing discord about a product you haven't tried? Lots of people here are looking forward to trying the NV10 and, given the finances, would probably be quite interested in buying one. I'm left wondering what your agenda is.

FWIW, the action of the NV10 will be in a different league because it's a real acoustic action. To my eyes the CP1's wedgy front side profile is utterly hideous and the Star Ship Enterprise vibe of the control panel is just tacky.
Posted By: Skjalg

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/20/17 10:17 PM

Originally Posted by Pologuy
At a list price over $10,000 - it doesn't really matter how "good" or "bad" the NV10 is... it just isn't worth it for most.

From the pictures posted by Skjalg the NV10 has obviously been up in that store for awhile - as you can see quite a bit of dust sitting on it.

It was unwrapped Friday 15th of December in the evning. I received an SMS. This shop deals mostly in accoustic pianos, but has the Kawai lineup of digital pianos as well. The Novus was placed by the entrance to the workshop and they were assembling/disassembling some old pianos which is why it was dusty. The pictures were taken on Monday.

An absoulte minority of people write about their purchase or intention to purchase something, It has not been out in Europe or USA for 2,5 months. In Japan, maybe.

To me the Novus looks good, feels good and sounds decent. Better than I had expected. It is for someone that needs it to practise at low volumes or with head phones, but wants real, grand action. It is an alternative to the Yamaha. You could install a silent system in your accoustic grand, but that would compromise the pp and ff. So in this case the Novus would aslo be an option.

Posted By: Pologuy

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/21/17 12:56 AM

Originally Posted by EssBrace
Chime in to say what exactly?


Well, since he has most likely played both the NV10 and CP1 - to give us his opinion on the two...

Originally Posted by EssBrace
I'm finding some of your posts to be a little bit troll-like to be honest. Why are you sowing discord about a product you haven't tried? Lots of people here are looking forward to trying the NV10 and, given the finances, would probably be quite interested in buying one. I'm left wondering what your agenda is.


Sorry you feel that way - I am entitled to post and give my opinion - just as you are.

And no "agenda" other than to get the best instrument possible - for me.

Originally Posted by EssBrace
FWIW, the action of the NV10 will be in a different league because it's a real acoustic action. To my eyes the CP1's wedgy front side profile is utterly hideous and the Star Ship Enterprise vibe of the control panel is just tacky.


To quote you - I'm finding some of your posts to be a little bit troll-like to be honest. Why are you sowing discord about a product you haven't tried? smile


Posted By: ando

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/21/17 01:10 AM

Essbrace has a point, Pologuy - to compare the NV10 with a CP1 is preposterous, and serves nothing in this discussion. The NV10 has vastly superior technology is every respect. There is a somewhat different form factor, but I hardly think the CP1 is a great looking piano, or somehow an acoustic replacement. If the NV10 delivers what it promises, I think $10k is a very reasonable price. You seem to have a fixation around $8.5k - like any piano that costs more than that is unacceptably expensive. I think you are letting your own feelings about your own self-imposed budget cloud your judgement. There are plenty of people who can afford, and will buy, a $10k instrument if they like it enough. I would personally happily pay $10k rather than $8.5k if it made a substantial difference in quality of playing experience. With that in mind, it comes down to playing the darn thing - something none of us here seems to have done yet, apart from Kawai James.
Posted By: Pologuy

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/21/17 01:21 AM

Not to be a "snipe" - but of the three of us - me, you (ando), and EssBrace - only one of us has played or had any experience with one of these two pianos - me.

For you to say that the NV10 has "vastly superior technology is every respect" may be "technically" true - but that doesn't mean it sounds better.

Only Kawai James knows so far...

Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/21/17 04:45 AM

Hello Pologuy,

Please allow me to respond to some of your comments.

Originally Posted by Pologuy
From the pictures posted by Skjalg the NV10 has obviously been up in that store for awhile - as you can see quite a bit of dust sitting on it.


I'm sorry, but this is nonsense, as Skjalg's post explains (emphasis mine):

Originally Posted by Skjalg
It was unwrapped Friday 15th of December in the evning. I received an SMS. This shop deals mostly in accoustic pianos, but has the Kawai lineup of digital pianos as well. The Novus was placed by the entrance to the workshop and they were assembling/disassembling some old pianos which is why it was dusty. The pictures were taken on Monday.


Originally Posted by Pologuy
The fact that it has been out for over 2 1/2 months now and basically no reviews - doesn't bode well.


The NV10 'officially' went on sale in Japan at the beginning of October - I believe 5 units were initially available, with demonstrations hosted at some of Kawai's larger retail store throughout Japan. The NV10 was officially announced for the overseas market at the end of October, and began shipping to a small number of Kawai's overseas distributors a few weeks later. The limited number of NV10 'reviews' is likely because only a very small number of dealers will have received the instrument, plus the fact that - despite its undoubted popularity - PianoWorld counts for a small proportion of the global piano community.

Originally Posted by Pologuy
Why would anyone pay near $10,000 for the NV10 - when you can get the Kawai top of the line CP1 for $14,000...


I don't believe the NV10 can be compared to the CP1, however, seeing as you asked for my opinion...

Originally Posted by Pologuy
As far as action - the NV10 is most likely a little better.


The NV10 uses the Millennium III grand piano action - widely considered by many pianists and piano technicians to be the most responsive grand piano action available today. It's not a little better, it's arguably the best.

Originally Posted by Pologuy
As far as sound however - having owned two previous versions of the CP1 (the CP205 and CP207) - I would be very surprised if the NV10 - with its lower power rating and smaller size and number speaker specs - had a better grand piano sound than the CP1.


Well, numbers aren't everything.

Also, may I ask how are you defining "grand piano sound"? Is it the quality of the originally recorded grand piano, or how these samples are reproduced by the digital piano's tone generator? Or is it how this sound is processed, converted, and then delivered to the speaker system? This is quite an important point so let's look at each stage:

1. The main grand piano sound of the NV10 is a Shigeru Kawai SK-EX, while for the CP1 it is an older generation Kawai EX. Both concert grands are undoubtedly wonderful instruments, however within Kawai digital pianos, I believe the majority of customers prefer the SK-EX 'sound'.

2. The NV10 features the new 'SK-EX Rendering' sound engine, which uses multi-channel sampling and full resonance modelling, while the CP1 utilises the older (but still very good) 'Harmonic Imaging XL' sound engine. Also, remember that the NV10 retains the HI-XL sound engine too, along with the CP1's Kawai EX sound and additional Shigeru Kawai SK-5 chamber grand and K-60 upright piano sounds.

3. The NV10 features advanced audio processing hardware, including 1-bit processing, dual DACs, and Onkyo's exclusive DIDRC filtering. The CP1's signal chain does not feature any such premium technology. The NV10 has three separate amplifier modules developed in collaboration with Onkyo, and a unique headphone amplifier featuring Onkyo's brand new Discrete SpectraModule hardware. I'm afraid I don't know which company developed the CP1's two amplifiers, but I believe they can be found in older generation CN instruments.

4. The NV10 features a 7-speaker output system, while the CP1 features a 9-speaker output system. It's been a while since I played a CP1, as the current generation of CP instruments are only sold in the US, however I recall that it produces a big Hi-Fi/Karaoke-like sound. This is ideal for an ensemble instrument like the CP, with thousands of sounds, hundreds of backing accompaniment styles, and comprehensive multi-track recording features - CP customers can feel like they're playing along with a real live band. However, the NV10 is perhaps intended for a different kind of player.

I expect the CP1 can probably produce more volume than the NV10 - it's a physically larger instrument, after all. However, for simulating an acoustic piano, I personally would prefer less raw power and more expressive fidelity. So, even with less speakers and a lower wattage specification, I'm confident that that the NV10 - with it's more advanced sound engine, modern signal processing, and premium amplification hardware would result in a "better" grand piano sound than the CP1.

Now, to respond to some of your other comments:

Originally Posted by Pologuy
The CP1 has a real spruce soundboard and the speakers are connected to that spruce soundboard to get some of the same soundboard resonance that an acoustic grand piano gives.


Some of the CP1's speakers are mounted onto a wooden board, this is true. However, I don't believe this board actually contributes a great deal to the overall sound of the instrument. Certainly, it cannot be compared to the Soundboard Speaker System technology found on the Concert Artist CA91/CA93/CA95/CA97/CA98 models.

Originally Posted by Pologuy
The CP1 speakers are also roughly the same distance away from the top of the grand cabinet rim as an acoustic grand - which also adds to the resonance that an acoustic grand piano gives.


I'm afraid I don't know if this is correct...it sounds convincing though! wink

Originally Posted by Pologuy
The CP1 has 9 speakers with 200 watts and a 10" subwoofer - strategically located at various points throughout the grand cabinet and spruce soundboard - the NV10 has 135 watts and a 6" woofer.


These numbers are correct, but as I mentioned above, numbers aren't everything.

Finally, to return to your original query, I don't personally believe the NV10 can be compared to the CP1. The keyboard action, pedal mechanism, sound engine, delivery system, feature set, control interface, and cabinet design are all completely different. Honestly speaking, the only thing the NV10 and CP1 share in common is the fact that they both have 88 keys, three pedals, are housed in an ebony polish cabinet with a KAWAI badge on the front, and of course produce acoustic piano sounds when played. Aside from this these points, the two instruments are very different products, and will likely appeal to very different customers.

My apologies for this lengthy post, however I felt it was necessary to address some of the inaccuracies in your posts.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: Pologuy

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/21/17 04:53 AM

So there we have it - according to Kawai James - Kawai's $12,000 digital piano has better action and a "'better' grand piano sound" than it's flagship $22,000 digital piano.

Good to know!

Thanks James!

Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/21/17 05:04 AM

What an...odd series of posts...
Posted By: newer player

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/21/17 05:04 AM

Originally Posted by Pologuy
So there we have it - according to Kawai James - Kawai's $12,000 digital piano has better action and a better "piano sound" than it's flagship $22,000 digital piano.


Horses for courses.

I imagine Chicago will be one of the first cities to receive the NV10 in North America so you should have an opportunity to try that in a couple of weeks. Looking forward to your feedback!
Posted By: Osho

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/21/17 07:32 AM

Originally Posted by Pologuy
So there we have it - according to Kawai James - Kawai's $12,000 digital piano has better action and a "'better' grand piano sound" than it's flagship $22,000 digital piano.

Good to know!

Thanks James!


This is gross over-simplification of what James said - and has connotations that are not implied by James. And, it is completely without the context and can be interpreted to mean something totally different than what James said. James provided an accurate comparison of the 2 models, highlighting their differences and suitability for different purposes. To paraphrase that in this way could be misleading without the context.

Osho
Posted By: Cosi

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/21/17 08:49 AM

Originally Posted by Skjalg
To me the Novus looks good, feels good and sounds decent


Just "decent" ? For 9000€ I expect more than that. In the commercial video, the Novus sounds as good as some high quality Vst plugin...

Mere supposition : when the N1X will be out, it will have also a nice grand action, will sound as good or maybe a little better (because Yamaha is just better concerning digital sound, imo) and will be significantly cheaper than the Novus 10.
Posted By: mabraman

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/21/17 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by Pologuy
So there we have it - according to Kawai James - Kawai's $12,000 digital piano has better action and a "'better' grand piano sound" than it's flagship $22,000 digital piano.


So...?
Novus has neither CP's recording capabilities, nor grand cabinet or number of sounds or finish. I don't know if all this justifies the price difference, but that's up to the customer to decide.
Originally Posted by Cosi

Just "decent" ? For 9000€ I expect more than that.


When you come form an acoustic piano experience, even high end digitals sound hardly decent to many ears. This one sounds very promising in Pianist Mode, but it is what it is.
Posted By: ando

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/21/17 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by Pologuy
Not to be a "snipe" - but of the three of us - me, you (ando), and EssBrace - only one of us has played or had any experience with one of these two pianos - me.

For you to say that the NV10 has "vastly superior technology is every respect" may be "technically" true - but that doesn't mean it sounds better.

Only Kawai James knows so far...


I've played a CP1, sure. You think you're the only one who played one of those? The problem is that you are making big statements about a piano that you haven't played yet, and then making a judgement that it's too costly. Citing an even more expensive piano that you do have a high opinion of does not make your point well at all - in fact it flatly contradicts your point that the market will not bear expensive DPs. It will, and it does. Just cool your jets until you play the new Novus.
Posted By: EssBrace

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/21/17 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by Pologuy
Not to be a "snipe" - but of the three of us - me, you (ando), and EssBrace - only one of us has played or had any experience with one of these two pianos - me.

For you to say that the NV10 has "vastly superior technology is every respect" may be "technically" true - but that doesn't mean it sounds better.

Only Kawai James knows so far...


...The problem is that you are making big statements about a piano that you haven't played yet...

Just cool your jets until you play the new Novus.


Big statements that are opinion. Opinion based on conjecture and speculation, not experience. Opinion expressed as fact.

Yes, hold off with all the negativity until you've played it.
Posted By: Bambers

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/21/17 10:54 AM

The CP1 is $22,000?? eek seems even more niche than the AGs/Novus. Is it US market only?

To be perfectly honest I wouldn't be surprised if the novus sound was better for pianos. As I mentioned further up, speaker tech has come a long way in the last 10 years, you only need to look at the sound some of the more serious semi portable speakers can chuck out to see that. The need for a large diameter sub is also limited in reproducing piano sounds as even a soundboard the size of a concert grand has very high impedance below around 50/60Hz.
Posted By: Pologuy

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/21/17 04:27 PM

Originally Posted by Osho
This is gross over-simplification of what James said...


James edited his post to add more to what it says now - after reading my post under his...

Originally Posted by ando
I've played a CP1, sure.


Right...

But like others have stated - you have to wait to demo any instrument you are thinking about purchasing.

I am waiting to demo the NV10 myself as soon as I can - ever since getting an email from my Kawai dealer stating: "Yes. I will be VERY competitive for you on the NV10. Not crazy about how it looks though."

Everybody has their own likes and dislikes - pick the instrument that works for YOU.

smile
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/22/17 12:16 AM

Originally Posted by Pologuy
Originally Posted by Osho
This is gross over-simplification of what James said...


James edited his post to add more to what it says now - after reading my post under his...


I believe I added an extra summary paragraph towards the end of my post, however the bulk of what was written would have been visible when you replied.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: OldFingers

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/22/17 01:09 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
I expect the CP1 can probably produce more volume than the NV10 - it's a physically larger instrument, after all. However, for simulating an acoustic piano, I personally would prefer less raw power and more expressive fidelity. So, even with less speakers and a lower wattage specification, I'm confident that that the NV10 - with it's more advanced sound engine, modern signal processing, and premium amplification hardware would result in a "better" grand piano sound than the CP1.


Having lived with an RX-3 for ten years, I've had all the raw power that I ever want to experience. It required considerable effort and expense to acoustically treat my room to make the volume level barely acceptable. I am happy to declare that I belong to the target demographic for a piano with "less raw power and more expressive fidelity". My guess is that that demographic is much larger than most piano shops would care to admit. It is probably true, however, that "raw power" is a more easily demonstrable selling point.
Posted By: jfl

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/22/17 06:02 PM

A question on the NV10 (apologies if it's previously been asked and answered). Does anyone know if it has dual optical sensors - one for the keys and one for the hammers, as with the AvantGrand N1,2,3,3X?
Posted By: Osho

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/22/17 06:12 PM

Originally Posted by jfl
A question on the NV10 (apologies if it's previously been asked and answered). Does anyone know if it has dual optical sensors - one for the keys and one for the hammers, as with the AvantGrand N1,2,3,3X?

I haven't seen this question answered.

Where did you see that AvantGrand has dual optical sensors - any pointers?

EDIT: found it here
Quote
To capture every nuance of your performance, Yamaha employs a non-contact optical sensor system that doesn’t affect the feel or performance of the action in any way. Under each key is a continuous optical sensor that captures the speed and depth at which that key is depressed. An additional optical sensor affixed to each hammer shank measures the timing and strength of the hammer hitting the virtual “strings”


Thanks,
Osho
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/22/17 06:35 PM

From the pictures, it seems to have sensors on the hammers (at the base of the hammer shaft). I can't see sensors on the keys, but they must be there (or on the "damper" weights), because you need them to determine the damper up/down moment. So yes, it has sensors on keys and hammers.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/22/17 07:20 PM

Does the Novus need key sensors? It does have a real damper mechanism after all, so conceivably the sensor could be on the damper.
Posted By: winnyec

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/22/17 07:40 PM

Still the dampers are raised independently when the keys raise them. It makes sense that the sensors are right there, but they still have to exist on a per-key basis. Which then is just a technical difference whether the sensors measure the keys themselves or the corresponding damper pieces. No?
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/22/17 08:40 PM

Yeah I guess that could still very well be a "key sensor." smile

I feel it's a bit of a shame if you have a real damper and then don't directly measure off of it, though I figure the damper is one of those things where measuring the key position is probably good enough.

Then again, lots of DPs have escapement simulations but then do not bother to measure the middle sensor off of that, either. Another potentially wasted opportunity.
Posted By: Frédéric L

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/22/17 09:09 PM

If you put the sensors on the dampers, when you press the pedal, the keys won’t move the dampers and you need a key sensor. Why would you put the sensor on thr dampers ?
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/22/17 09:46 PM

You don't need key sensors to measure velocity, if instead you measure this at the hammers - which gives you a more realistic measurement anyway. So the only reason why you still need key sensors is to determine when the dampers are lifted and when not. If you actually have dampers (or weights simulating dampers), like the Novus has, then you could just as well measure the dampers directly, instead of the keys.
For the record, I would be surprised if the Novus does this. I think it has key sensors for this.
Posted By: jfl

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/22/17 10:13 PM

It would be great to get confirmation on two: one under the keys and one on the hammer shank. I've never tried the NU1, but a thread on this site (http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2692907/1.html) seems to indicate that that the lack of a second set of hammer sensors creates a playability issue. I'm not sure I see the need for individual sensors on the dampers, in addition to the midi signal from the pedal, but I could be missing something there.

Seems like there's interest but no definitive answer. Wondering if James might know?
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/22/17 10:26 PM

The NU1 is different from the N1/2/3 insofar as it indeed only has key sensors, the latter three have hammer sensors too, as was shown a bit further up.
The images of the Novus action suggest that it has hammer sensors too.
The sensor from the pedal only tells you that all dampers are lifted. That is not enough. You also need to know for each individual key if the damper is lifted, i.e. while the key is held down when the pedal is not pressed. Therefore you need individual key or damper sensors too, even if you already have hammer sensors.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 12/22/17 10:32 PM

Originally Posted by Frédéric L
If you put the sensors on the dampers, when you press the pedal, the keys won’t move the dampers and you need a key sensor. Why would you put the sensor on thr dampers ?


My understanding is as JoBert described, that is that "key" sensors are only needed on hybrids/silent pianos to determine damper position. So if the sensors are on the dampers themselves, and the damper pedal is pressed, then you have perfect ground truth on the physical damper position, which is exactly what you want.
Posted By: Gérard

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/01/18 11:21 AM

happy new year to you all, finally 2018 the year of the NOVUS !!!!!
Posted By: computerpro3

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/05/18 04:27 AM

Just checking in again to complain that it still isn't out.

This piano is holding up a few projects I am working on. I need a real grand action and I don't want an Avantgrand.
Posted By: Osho

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/05/18 07:59 AM

Originally Posted by computerpro3
Just checking in again to complain that it still isn't out.

This piano is holding up a few projects I am working on. I need a real grand action and I don't want an Avantgrand.

Yea, not here yet - hopefully in a month.

I am curious what your projects are. Also, given your constraints, Kawai Novus NV10 is the only DP that satisfies them!

Osho
Posted By: computerpro3

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/05/18 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by Osho
Originally Posted by computerpro3
Just checking in again to complain that it still isn't out.

This piano is holding up a few projects I am working on. I need a real grand action and I don't want an Avantgrand.

Yea, not here yet - hopefully in a month.

I am curious what your projects are. Also, given your constraints, Kawai Novus NV10 is the only DP that satisfies them!

Osho


Recording Brahms 2 by myself, playing the piano part on a digital piano and using an assortment of midi controllers (wind, bite, motion detectors for my hands) to record all of the other instruments one by one into the computer.

I have a Kawai CA57 and it can do 95% of what I need it to, but there are a few sections in the concerto that I can play just fine on a real piano but need a more realistic action to play really well on the digital.
Posted By: karvala

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/05/18 01:36 PM

The NV10 is potentially an interesting product, and I'll be very interested to try one if and when Kawai can actually manage to get one to somewhere other Japan.

Just to cut to the essentials: you need three good things (all from the player's perspective) for a fine DP experience. (1) A good action; (2) A good sound; (3) a good action-to-sound mapping.

(1) Action: Hybrids are being marketed on the basis that they have a real Grand Piano action, so (1) is taken of. This is true for existing hybrids, and I'm sure it will be true for the NV10 as well. I've never played a GX-2, but I've played a GX-3 which is actually better and has the same Millennium III action in it. To cut through the marketing guff, it was a nice action as I recall, very crisp and evenly balanced. I think to describe it as the best action in the world is marketing hype; I've played plenty of other equally good actions, and have preferred some others, but that's personal preference. It's a perfectly decent Grand Piano action, but plenty of Grand Pianos have decent actions.

(2) Sound: There are three components to sound: (a) the sound samples (or model for modelled pianos) and audio processing; and (b) the output apparatus (aka speakers or headphones). For (a), as has been discussed in recent threads here at length, it's quite clear that VSTs will remain superior to builtin sounds for a good time yet. The Yamaha N3X, for example, has just 256Mb of sample memor, which cannot compare to high-end pianos, and indeed anyone who has played the Yamaha CFX sound (which to be fair isn't bad) and the Garritan CFX sounds (vastly better), the difference is clearly apparent. Note that there is a distinction to be made between samples and audio processing equipment on board, but since we don't always have details of the audio chips used, and you can't readily change them in DPs, I'm conflating the two here. In the case of the N10, though, we know they have some decent Onkyo equipment on board. For (b) this will vary depending on personal preferences, but in general audio sounds better through good headphones than good speakers, and that applies to digital pianos too. I personally find headphones with the right sound stage to give a good illusion of playing an actual piano, but many people don't and need the sound to come from speakers on the piano. In that case they can be builtin speakers, but you can also position your own speakers on the pianos. Some high end DPs (including some hybrids) have a soundboard to enhance speaker-based sound, though I don't believe that's the case with the NV10.

(3) Action-to-sound mapping: This is sometimes neglected in discussions. A hybrid might have a grand piano action, but it doesn't have a grand piano acoustic sound production mechanism, so something needs to convert the action outputs into sounds. Essentially this means optical sensor technology. How many sensors, where they are located, how frequently their output is sampled, how fine graded the outputs are in terms of conversion to different velocity layers, all have a significant impact on the playing experience. You can have the best action in the world, but if it's coupled with a lousy sensor system, it will still be bad to play. All hybrids (to my knowledge; certainly the NV10 and the Avantgrand range) have optical sensors; there isn't really any other way to do it. The optical sensor can evaluate hammer speed and position and convert that to an appropriate velocity for sound purposes. How fine-grained that is remains unclear, but it is likely to be a step up from the triple contact-sensors used in high end non-hybrid DPs.

So how can you get the best overall experience for the least money? Well there are a few options.

1. High end non-hybrid DPs. The action will not be as authentic, but the Kawai GFII action is pretty good, with hammers and counterweights. The action-to-sound mapping is similarly pretty good, but using contact sensors. The sounds you get will be the same from CA78 upwards, i.e. the SK-EX in Pianist Mode and a bunch of pianos including the SK-EX in Sound Mode. So essentially, you're paying an extra £5500 (the approximate price difference in the UK at present between) for a more authentic keyboard action and not much else. Worth it? Depends on your budget and priorities. A similar argument can made for the Avantgrands vs the CLP685 if you're in the Yamaha camp.

2. Acoustic instruments with silent systems. There are strangely neglected in discussions. To be clear, Kawai have two silent systems - the older ATX and the newer ATX2 - which use the same IHSS sensor technology seen in the NV10. The sounds are older and more outdated on both, though; no SK-EX. In that sense, the NV10 is like a combination of an ATX2 acoustic and the CA78/98. The ATX2 is applied not only the GX2, but also some cheaper but still fairly decent grand pianos including the GL10 and G30, the significance of which I'll go into below. Yamaha also have two silent systems - the older SG2 system and the newer SH system. They use the same optical sensor technology in the Avantgrand systems to the best of my knowledge; the SG2 only has older sounds but the new SH has the updated CFX binaural samples. It's worth noting that the older Avantgrand pianos (N1,N2,N3) essentially use the SG2 module, while the newer ones (N3X, and in all likelihood the forthcoming N2X as well) use the SH module. Both silent modules are offered on cheaper Yamaha grands as well as the more expensive ones, including the GC1 model. The key point about acoustic instruments with silent systems is that they have real grand piano actions - because they ARE real grand pianos - with the same action-to-sound mappings found in the hybrids as well.

So where does that leave us? With three additional considerations: (1) price; (2) space; (3) usage. The Kawai NV10 is priced in the UK in practice at just over £8k at present, though you can't actually get them. The Kawai GL10 with ATX2 silent system is just over £11k for comparison. The Yamaha N1 is dirt cheap at around £5k at the moment, while the N3X is around £15k. The Yamaha GC1 with SG2 silent system is around £11k while the Yamaha GC1 with the SH silent system is around £19k. Essentially, for £3-4k more than the hybrid, you can get an acoustic grand with the same system. It's also worth noting that acoustic uprights with silent systems from both companies are available from around £4k if you want an upright action, which is very cheap and essentially makes the NU1X largely redundant in my view. In terms of space, these are baby grands but they will still take up more space than the hybrids in all cases, though not that by as much as you might think. In terms of usage, a key question for anyone is: would I like to be able to play it as an acoustic instrument sometimes?

If the answer is yes to the last question, then an acoustic grand (or upright if you don't mind the upright action and are limited on space or budget) makes a lot of sense, and personally I would combine it with a high-end VST (e.g. Garritan CFX) for those times when it's used as a DP. For around £12k, including the cost of laptop, VST and speakers/headphones, you can effectively have an acoustic grand piano (from Kawai or Yamaha), that also functions as a hybrid and which sounds a lot better than standalone hybrid without the additional VST.

If the answer is no, or if you want a grand action but don't have the space for the instrument, then it comes down to an action choice between a cheap N1 with additional VST etc., or the slightly more expensive NV10 with probably a better action (assuming it is a faithful reproduction of the Millennium III action).

As far as I can see, the only reason to buy an N3X, and probably an N2X, is if you don't want to play an acoustic instrument AND you don't want to use an external VST AND you want the upgraded builtin sounds. The same applies to the NU1X if you're after an upright action.

From all of the above, it seems the NV10 is interestingly situated. A bit cheaper and smaller than a silent grand, but without the ability to play acoustically. More expensive than the N1, but with probably better sounds and action. If and when an N1X is announced, that might provide more serious competition for it.
Posted By: karvala

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/05/18 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by computerpro3
Originally Posted by Osho
Originally Posted by computerpro3
Just checking in again to complain that it still isn't out.

This piano is holding up a few projects I am working on. I need a real grand action and I don't want an Avantgrand.

Yea, not here yet - hopefully in a month.

I am curious what your projects are. Also, given your constraints, Kawai Novus NV10 is the only DP that satisfies them!

Osho


Recording Brahms 2 by myself, playing the piano part on a digital piano and using an assortment of midi controllers (wind, bite, motion detectors for my hands) to record all of the other instruments one by one into the computer.

I have a Kawai CA57 and it can do 95% of what I need it to, but there are a few sections in the concerto that I can play just fine on a real piano but need a more realistic action to play really well on the digital.


That's quite the undertaking! The piano part alone is quite challenging; I can certainly see why you would want a realistic action for that. Will be interested to hear the results.
Posted By: Bambers

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/05/18 01:52 PM

The thing to note with silent pianos is that the regulation has to be compromised somewhat in order to make the silent system work. Specifically the let off distance has to be increased a little more than the optimum in order to provide enough room for the hammers to be stopped short of the strings without the action jamming up when they are stopped short.

From what I've read on here, the yamaha & kawai systems which are built into the pianos from the start are considerably better than this than aftermarket systems which can be highly variable but there apparently is still some sacrifice.
Posted By: computerpro3

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/05/18 02:24 PM

I realize I am in the minority here, but I couldn't care less about the sound. There is no way it is going to be comparable to a well set up pianoteq.

I really wish these companies would do licensing deals with pianoteq to have a standalone version running inside of the piano. It wouldn't cost much and would save them thousands of development dollars (I manufacture electronics for a living).

I am literally buying the Novus as a $10k midi controller for pianoteq....
Posted By: PianoGuyStuart

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/05/18 02:29 PM

Karvala - interesting post about the actions. At some stage I hope to have the room (and the money!) for an acoustic grand. It's good that companies like Yamaha are adding in these silent systems. It makes it much more of a no brainier (if money and space are less of an issue). Because even if I was totally loaded, there would still be occasions that headphones might be the preferable option.

I noticed in your byline that you are using the objective 2 amp with the hd650s. You seem quite clued up on this stuff! Did you get the standard one, or the custom one? Did you find it improved the sound of the 650s much?
Posted By: scorpio

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/05/18 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by computerpro3
I realize I am in the minority here, but I couldn't care less about the sound. There is no way it is going to be comparable to a well set up pianoteq.

I really wish these companies would do licensing deals with pianoteq to have a standalone version running inside of the piano. It wouldn't cost much and would save them thousands of development dollars (I manufacture electronics for a living).

I am literally buying the Novus as a $10k midi controller for pianoteq....

I must be in the minority too. I agree with everything you mention.
Posted By: karvala

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/05/18 11:15 PM

Originally Posted by Bambers
The thing to note with silent pianos is that the regulation has to be compromised somewhat in order to make the silent system work. Specifically the let off distance has to be increased a little more than the optimum in order to provide enough room for the hammers to be stopped short of the strings without the action jamming up when they are stopped short.

From what I've read on here, the yamaha & kawai systems which are built into the pianos from the start are considerably better than this than aftermarket systems which can be highly variable but there apparently is still some sacrifice.


Yeah, I would never go aftermarket with these things; I think they have to be an integral part of the instrument to avoid compromising the quality. I've played a Yamaha C3X silent briefly, and it seemed fine to me, but then I'm not familiar with the regular C3 so it may have been different. I'd be quite happy to have one, though!
Posted By: karvala

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/05/18 11:26 PM

Originally Posted by computerpro3
I realize I am in the minority here, but I couldn't care less about the sound. There is no way it is going to be comparable to a well set up pianoteq.

I really wish these companies would do licensing deals with pianoteq to have a standalone version running inside of the piano. It wouldn't cost much and would save them thousands of development dollars (I manufacture electronics for a living).

I am literally buying the Novus as a $10k midi controller for pianoteq....


The two problems with that are that (a) many people don't like the Pianoteq sound or find it realistic and would actively avoid buying an instrument if it only offered Pianoteq; and (b) both Kawai and Yamaha use their DPs as an opportunity to show off the sounds of the their top-end acoustic grands, and would be reluctant to give that up. That's largely why only Roland so far have gone down the modelling route.
Posted By: karvala

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/05/18 11:40 PM

Originally Posted by PianoGuyStuart
Karvala - interesting post about the actions. At some stage I hope to have the room (and the money!) for an acoustic grand. It's good that companies like Yamaha are adding in these silent systems. It makes it much more of a no brainier (if money and space are less of an issue). Because even if I was totally loaded, there would still be occasions that headphones might be the preferable option.

I noticed in your byline that you are using the objective 2 amp with the hd650s. You seem quite clued up on this stuff! Did you get the standard one, or the custom one? Did you find it improved the sound of the 650s much?


Thanks! Yeah, if I had the space and the cash I'd certainly get a decent acoustic silent grand as well.

My O2 has customised amplifications specs (x1 and x2.5) to reflect my usage (my main sound source doesn't really need amplification but another does), but is standard other than that. Did it improve the 650 sound much? Well it did pretty much what it was supposed to, i.e. increase the amplitude without any audible noise, which was great, so in that sense yes. It didn't change the sound colour at all, however; that's also specifically the intention of the amp, but it does meant that fundamentally the sound doesn't change. A louder sound is important for all Sennheiser headphones because of the rather veiled nature of their sound, so it's definitely worth trying them loud, but the veil will always be there to some extent.
Posted By: computerpro3

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/06/18 12:42 AM

Originally Posted by karvala


The two problems with that are that (a) many people don't like the Pianoteq sound or find it realistic and would actively avoid buying an instrument if it only offered Pianoteq; and (b) both Kawai and Yamaha use their DPs as an opportunity to show off the sounds of the their top-end acoustic grands, and would be reluctant to give that up. That's largely why only Roland so far have gone down the modelling route.



1. That's just because people don't know how to set it up and tweak it properly. I can consistently fool people with pianoteq, even experienced pianists, into thinking it's a real piano in blind listening tests.

2. Their top end sounds are a joke compared to not just pianoteq, but even similarly sampled libraries you can use via PC or Mac. There is less than 1gb of memory in most of these instruments, and piano sample libraries can be 80-100gb and more.

Regardless of your feelings about pianoteq, the technology of sampling used in the instruments is about 15 years behind what it should be. I can buy a $60 single board computer the size of a credit card that has a qualcomm snapdragon quad core 1.4ghz processor with a dedicated audio DSP chip on board and 4GB of ram. That is lightyears faster than the hardware in most top end instruments.

It's not about price, it's just about them not changing anything because there is no innovation or competition to.
Posted By: Osho

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/06/18 01:11 AM

Originally Posted by computerpro3
It's not about price, it's just about them not changing anything because there is no innovation or competition to.

I don't think it is so black and white if you look at over the last decade or so.

There are 3 key aspects of DP for me: key action, sound generation technology, amps+speakers.

  • Key action: There has been significant innovation in key action in last 10 years - with AvantGrand and now Kawai Novus NV10. I expect that this will continue to get better now there is real competition in market place for DP with real grand acoustic action.
  • Sound generation technology: This is still stuck in late 1990s - despite all the advancements claimed by the DP manufacturers. I would happily pay $2000 extra for AvantGrand/NV10 if it had an optional module that makes Pianoteq 6 and Garritan CFX internal to the DP.
  • Amps+Speakers: There is some improvement on this front, but hardly as much as in key action domain. This is still lagging - this is a really hard to solve problem to make it sound 'just like a real grand acoustic piano'. Audiophiles have been spending crazy amount of money for a long time to make a recording sound live. I think DP will always lag a real grand acoustic piano on this front.


Osho
Posted By: karvala

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/06/18 01:13 AM

Originally Posted by computerpro3

1. That's just because people don't know how to set it up and tweak it properly. I can consistently fool people with pianoteq, even experienced pianists, into thinking it's a real piano in blind listening tests.


Well I'm always happy to test .fxp files from anyone who thinks they have the winning Pianoteq formula. Haven't heard a convincing one yet, but would be delighted to find one.

Originally Posted by computerpro3

2. Their top end sounds are a joke compared to not just pianoteq, but even similarly sampled libraries you can use via PC or Mac. There is less than 1gb of memory in most of these instruments, and piano sample libraries can be 80-100gb and more.

Regardless of your feelings about pianoteq, the technology of sampling used in the instruments is about 15 years behind what it should be. I can buy a $60 single board computer the size of a credit card that has a qualcomm snapdragon quad core 1.4ghz processor with a dedicated audio DSP chip on board and 4GB of ram. That is lightyears faster than the hardware in most top end instruments.

It's not about price, it's just about them not changing anything because there is no innovation or competition to.


Agreed; I think there is a general consensus on here that DP builtin sounds are way behind the curve. They do improve with each generation, but it's iterative to say the least, and there seems to be a general lack of willingness to try and produce a sound comparable to the best VSTs.
Posted By: computerpro3

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/06/18 04:54 AM

Originally Posted by karvala
Originally Posted by computerpro3

1. That's just because people don't know how to set it up and tweak it properly. I can consistently fool people with pianoteq, even experienced pianists, into thinking it's a real piano in blind listening tests.


Well I'm always happy to test .fxp files from anyone who thinks they have the winning Pianoteq formula. Haven't heard a convincing one yet, but would be delighted to find one.


My main trick is totally disabling the pianoteq reverb and running it through a high quality convolution reverb like QL Spaces. I use a tweaked pianoteq bluthner BA concert recording (I paid extra for the full pianoteq as I do not find the cheaper version mic positions realistic).

When I am playing, I get the most realistic sound quality by using open headphones (Sennheiser HD650 off of a Schiit Bifrost multibit and Asgard 2) and blending the built in sound of the Kawai on very low volume with the tweaked pianoteq sound through the headphones on high quality.

This is totally unique as it gives the left to right positional sound information coming from the kawai sound system that a real piano has from a player's perspective, along with physical key vibrations from the built in speakers. But your brain is hearing mostly the pianoteq sound and EW convolution reverb, which adds simulation of a concert hall and a better quality piano sound. Pianoteq (being technically, artificially perfect....) is tuned just a cent or so off from some of the Kawai samples, so it sound super realistic in terms of string to string variation and resonances. I have had professional concert pianists try the setup and say "WTF, this is crazy real."

In terms of just a recording (when I am not practicing and don't care about realistic sound from the player's perspective, but rather from the listener's) I will set up pianoteq differently and master the recording differently as well.

But if you know what you are doing, it's ten times better than any sample library I have found (and I own all of the big ones).
Posted By: Osho

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/06/18 06:25 AM

Originally Posted by computerpro3
My main trick is totally disabling the pianoteq reverb and running it through a high quality convolution reverb like QL Spaces.

Great to hear - I have been wanting to experiment with external reverb with Pianoteq for some time now. Two questions:
  • Are there instructions somewhere on how to do this for someone who isn't familiar with DAW etc?
  • I have heard good things about Valhalla Room + Pioanoteq as well. Have you tried that instead of QL Spaces and if so, which one do you prefer?

My go-to sound setup now-a-days is: combination VST + Kawai CA-67 sound from Kawai's speakers (in front of me) and VST sound alone from audio system speakers behind me. As VST, I use both Pianoteq 6 (with its internal reverb) or Garritan CFX (Classic configuration with ambient mics reduced compared to close mic). If I keep the overall volume lound, it is a very convincing realistic sound.

Thanks,
Osho
Posted By: JoeT

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/06/18 09:09 AM

Originally Posted by computerpro3
My main trick is totally disabling the pianoteq reverb and running it through a high quality convolution reverb like QL Spaces. I use a tweaked pianoteq bluthner BA concert recording (I paid extra for the full pianoteq as I do not find the cheaper version mic positions realistic).

When I am playing, I get the most realistic sound quality by using open headphones (Sennheiser HD650 off of a Schiit Bifrost multibit and Asgard 2) and blending the built in sound of the Kawai on very low volume with the tweaked pianoteq sound through the headphones on high quality.

This is totally unique as it gives the left to right positional sound information coming from the kawai sound system that a real piano has from a player's perspective, along with physical key vibrations from the built in speakers. But your brain is hearing mostly the pianoteq sound and EW convolution reverb, which adds simulation of a concert hall and a better quality piano sound. Pianoteq (being technically, artificially perfect....) is tuned just a cent or so off from some of the Kawai samples, so it sound super realistic in terms of string to string variation and resonances. I have had professional concert pianists try the setup and say "WTF, this is crazy real."

That's my impression too: Pianoteq serves very well in sophisticated experimental setups like yours. I imagine people at digital piano research labs do similar things before putting their findings into marketable products half a decade later. The latter is what pianists need: Something, which works out of the box and sounds good.

I find myself using Pianoteq 6 more often than 5 for piano practice now (I paid for the upgrade), because I need long sustaining notes with proper pedal response for certain more advanced pieces now. However the weaknesses of the artificial sounding modeling and the problematic action-to-sound mapping using my Kawai action are still there, but I've given up on fiddling around with settings for hours and use the time for piano practice instead.
Posted By: Chris Warren

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/06/18 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by computerpro3
Originally Posted by karvala
Originally Posted by computerpro3

1. That's just because people don't know how to set it up and tweak it properly. I can consistently fool people with pianoteq, even experienced pianists, into thinking it's a real piano in blind listening tests.


Well I'm always happy to test .fxp files from anyone who thinks they have the winning Pianoteq formula. Haven't heard a convincing one yet, but would be delighted to find one.


My main trick is totally disabling the pianoteq reverb and running it through a high quality convolution reverb like QL Spaces. I use a tweaked pianoteq bluthner BA concert recording (I paid extra for the full pianoteq as I do not find the cheaper version mic positions realistic).

When I am playing, I get the most realistic sound quality by using open headphones (Sennheiser HD650 off of a Schiit Bifrost multibit and Asgard 2) and blending the built in sound of the Kawai on very low volume with the tweaked pianoteq sound through the headphones on high quality.

This is totally unique as it gives the left to right positional sound information coming from the kawai sound system that a real piano has from a player's perspective, along with physical key vibrations from the built in speakers. But your brain is hearing mostly the pianoteq sound and EW convolution reverb, which adds simulation of a concert hall and a better quality piano sound. Pianoteq (being technically, artificially perfect....) is tuned just a cent or so off from some of the Kawai samples, so it sound super realistic in terms of string to string variation and resonances. I have had professional concert pianists try the setup and say "WTF, this is crazy real."

In terms of just a recording (when I am not practicing and don't care about realistic sound from the player's perspective, but rather from the listener's) I will set up pianoteq differently and master the recording differently as well.

But if you know what you are doing, it's ten times better than any sample library I have found (and I own all of the big ones).


Do you have any recordings you can share? (...and an fxp file??)

Like JoeT, I've got frustrated with countless hours seeking the best sound from Pianoteq. I've got it to a point now with a combination of DP and PT sound that allows me practice and play enjoyably. The touch/dynamic enhancements that PT brings to the DP (N2 in my case) easily outweigh the small sacrifices in absolute sound quality.
Posted By: Pologuy

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/06/18 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by computerpro3
My main trick is totally disabling the pianoteq reverb and running it through a high quality convolution reverb like QL Spaces. I use a tweaked pianoteq bluthner BA concert recording (I paid extra for the full pianoteq as I do not find the cheaper version mic positions realistic).

When I am playing, I get the most realistic sound quality by using open headphones (Sennheiser HD650 off of a Schiit Bifrost multibit and Asgard 2) and blending the built in sound of the Kawai on very low volume with the tweaked pianoteq sound through the headphones on high quality.

This is totally unique as it gives the left to right positional sound information coming from the kawai sound system that a real piano has from a player's perspective, along with physical key vibrations from the built in speakers. But your brain is hearing mostly the pianoteq sound and EW convolution reverb, which adds simulation of a concert hall and a better quality piano sound. Pianoteq (being technically, artificially perfect....) is tuned just a cent or so off from some of the Kawai samples, so it sound super realistic in terms of string to string variation and resonances. I have had professional concert pianists try the setup and say "WTF, this is crazy real."

In terms of just a recording (when I am not practicing and don't care about realistic sound from the player's perspective, but rather from the listener's) I will set up pianoteq differently and master the recording differently as well.

But if you know what you are doing, it's ten times better than any sample library I have found (and I own all of the big ones).


So you aren't really "fooling" anyone with Pinaoteq then...

You are "fooling" some people with Pianoteq run through another computer program and then adding in some of the original Kawai DP's piano sound itself...?
Posted By: Chewbacca

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/06/18 06:16 PM

Karvala, where did you see that the N3X “only has 256MB sample memory”? To my knowledge Yamaha does not publish any specs on avantgrands regarding sample size, sample layers and velocity levels.

Thx
Posted By: Frédéric L

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/06/18 06:25 PM

The N3 has 4x1Gbit (512kB) of Wave memory according to its service manual.

I suppose the spatial sampling (more than 2 channels) needs more memory than a SH Silent for the same amount of velocity layers or decay length. (Yes, we have no information about these specifications).

I havn’t found a N3X service manual.
Posted By: jfl

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/08/18 05:40 PM

A new YouTube NV10 video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWadIZ8chgc

Be good to know if the sound is direct or from the speaker system.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/08/18 06:34 PM

Originally Posted by Frédéric L
The N3 has 4x1Gbit (512kB) of Wave memory according to its service manual.


4x1Gbit should be 512MB and not KB right?

Originally Posted by jfl
A new YouTube NV10 video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWadIZ8chgc

Be good to know if the sound is direct or from the speaker system.


Nice, thanks for posting. The one thing that stood out to me from the video is how prominent that cheek block display is. It really makes me wish it was OLED rather than LED. Though I assume it's mainly because there isn't a whole lot else you can accurately judge from a Youtube video.
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/08/18 06:46 PM

The touch display in the video still has the protective film applied, which makes it look a bit ugly...
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/08/18 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by JoBert
The touch display in the video still has the protective film applied, which makes it look a bit ugly...


That's a good point, it's also over the Kawai logo on the fallboard and it clearly impacts the contrast. Maybe it'll be fine.

But...with a polished ebony block serving as the bezel, I can only imagine an LED looking washed out and light-bleedy with or without film. Especially as it will almost certainly be viewed off-center.

A minor issue for sure, but I think it's valid feedback for something positioned in the premium market.
Posted By: Frédéric L

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/08/18 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
The N3 has 4x1Gbit (512kB) of Wave memory according to its service manual.


4x1Gbit should be 512MB and not KB right?


Yes, of course... 512kB is rather tiny even 10 years ago.
Posted By: winnyec

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/08/18 08:50 PM

This piano is extremely pretty. (The only little thing that is slightly off-putting is those speaker grills on the top… but even so it is extremely pretty.)
Posted By: winnyec

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/08/18 08:55 PM

Do I get it right that in your opinion the piano should be modelled but the reverb should be sampled? (PianoTeq does have something that it calls convolution reverb, but I doubt that they mean by it what I mean by it.)

Does anybody know if the convolution reverb of some sampled library (Garritan has one for instance) can be fed with external sound source (e.g. PianoTeq)? And if so whether it counts as ‘quality’ convolution reverb? (I am not much interested in buying a reverb with forest, tunnel, etc. response samples.)
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/09/18 12:26 AM

Originally Posted by jfl


Thanks for posting the video.

Originally Posted by jfl
Be good to know if the sound is direct or from the speaker system.


I'm 99% certain the sound would have been captured from the instrument's Line Out connectors.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: Timpskie

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/09/18 08:12 AM

The sound is clearly coming from the Line Out connectors.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/09/18 01:09 PM

Kawai James has indicated that there is a 1% chance that the sound is coming from the speakers, so we cannot say conclusively that ‘the sound is clearly coming from the line out.’
Posted By: PianoGuyStuart

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/09/18 02:17 PM

Sounds nice.

Interesting comment in that YouTube thread:

Quote
One thing is disappointing me: dark grey felt strip in the deep of the keys instead of red one like on real acoustic Grand Pianos. Kawai choose this color for many their digital pianos, and I don't share that choice. They try to imitate real grands, but lose such details. - Oleg
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/09/18 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by PianoGuyStuart
Sounds nice.

Interesting comment in that YouTube thread:

Quote
One thing is disappointing me: dark grey felt strip in the deep of the keys instead of red one like on real acoustic Grand Pianos. Kawai choose this color for many their digital pianos, and I don't share that choice. They try to imitate real grands, but lose such details. - Oleg


I saw that comment too. But assuming the fallboard on the NV10 is "standard" (or even if it's not), it can't be too hard to replace the felt with electric blue, or hot pink, or whatever color you want...
Posted By: Tommy S

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/09/18 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by jfl
A new YouTube NV10 video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWadIZ8chgc

Be good to know if the sound is direct or from the speaker system.


It looked like there was a cable running to the Line Out port in the NV10.

Beautiful piano, and not surprising that the Pianist Mode was used. I've been using Pianist Mode almost exclusively now on my CA98, and the YouTube recording sounded very similar to what I hear from Pianist Mode/Classic setting. Presume that the Sound Mode is also available on the NV10.

Look forward to playing one down the road to see how much of a difference the action makes over the Grand Feel of the CA98.

FWIW, I found that the display isn't distracting at all. I just keep it on all the time now.
Posted By: Bambers

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/09/18 04:15 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14
Kawai James has indicated that there is a 1% chance that the sound is coming from the speakers, so we cannot say conclusively that ‘the sound is clearly coming from the line out.’


I don't think James is in any better position than the rest of us. At any rate, he said he was 99% certain which is rather different and in some respects a bit of an oxymoron. You cannot be partially certain about something! smile /english pedantry.

That said, it seems conclusive enough to me. It sounds far too similar to the SK-EX sample on my cs8 to be anything other than a line out capture. There's zero player/keyboard noise and zero 'colouring' of the sound that would be expected from the room or microphone and you'd expect some visible microphones for any setup that would be good enough to minimise those issues.
Posted By: Timpskie

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/09/18 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by Pete14
Kawai James has indicated that there is a 1% chance that the sound is coming from the speakers, so we cannot say conclusively that ‘the sound is clearly coming from the line out.’


Nothing in life is 100% sure, I always count in 1 or 2 % chance that I can be wrong. But I work in sound, I'm a sound recordist for a living. And what I hear in this clip is a very pure recording of the SK-EX samples, in perfect conditions. I myself would not be able to make such a perfect recording with my best microphones in that room, even if there was a real SK-EX. What we hear doesn't match the acoustics of the room we see. To me it's clear I hear a direct output of the piano's samples thru the line out output.

I myself also don't like what Kawai is doing with the black felt in this piano, just like their CS11, and GX line of piano's. I like the traditional red felt in most piano's. Just like I don't like the Copper-colored plate in the Yamaha CX piano's.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/09/18 05:38 PM

Let's not read too much into it (or dive into a deeply philosophical inquiry into the meaning of absolute certainty). I assume James wasn't there to personally confirm the output, but perhaps Kawai has a policy to use line out whenever they release an audio sample, and there isn't any reason for him to believe anything else was the case here.

He's just trying to be helpful, and at the same time acknowledge that maybe there's a possibility that he's wrong. I can just imagine the future pitchforks being raised and people shouting "How can we trust KJ now?! Last time he told us the sound was line-out but he was lying! So he's lying now, too!"
Posted By: ando

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/09/18 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by Timpskie


I myself also don't like what Kawai is doing with the black felt in this piano, just like their CS11, and GX line of piano's. I like the traditional red felt in most piano's. Just like I don't like the Copper-colored plate in the Yamaha CX piano's.

I agree about the black felt - dull and ugly. But I love Yamaha's copper-coloured plate!
Posted By: Cosi

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/09/18 06:09 PM

Sound : nothing special. Kinda disappointing instrument video. Can they play something more dull than this ? We want constrasts, bass, dynamics, we want a real sound demo ffs...
Posted By: jfl

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/09/18 10:44 PM

It's interesting how many excellent VPC1 YouTubes are out there with classical and jazz solos. Granted it's been out a number of years and it's more accessible price-wise. Also quite a few Avantgrand videos to listen to whet the appetite of a potential hybrid buyer. Funny there seem to not be many for the CA series. at least that I've seen.

Hopefully we'll start seeing quality NV10 performance content on YouTube in the coming months. Of course, by the time that happens I'll have pulled the trigger on either an NV10 or an N2X, so too late for me...
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/18/18 10:27 AM

FYI: The Novus has now appeared in the Thomann online shop, with the same price that I found in December in a different online shop (8999€) and an "expected delivery date" of January 29th.

I've previously received a statement from Thomann via email, that once the "expected delivery date" is given as "immediate delivery", I can assume that they also have it in their show room for testing. So I hope that this will be soon.
Posted By: PianoGuyStuart

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/18/18 11:02 AM

£8199 on Bonners.

All of the blurb they have said they expected it in from 'Oct to Dec 2017'. So clearly that never happened!

Would expect they would get it in quickly, as they seem to put out a lot of videos etc about Kawai, so I would expect Kawai would be keenish to get one in their hands.

Sort of makes me wonder if there hasn't been some technical issue with this piano that hasn't been generally made public? As it seems odd that there has been such a big gap to them actually appearing anywhere?
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/18/18 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by PianoGuyStuart
£8199 on Bonners.

All of the blurb they have said they expected it in from 'Oct to Dec 2017'. So clearly that never happened!

Would expect they would get it in quickly, as they seem to put out a lot of videos etc about Kawai, so I would expect Kawai would be keenish to get one in their hands.

Sort of makes me wonder if there hasn't been some technical issue with this piano that hasn't been generally made public? As it seems odd that there has been such a big gap to them actually appearing anywhere?

Oh come on. What "big gap"? The announcement was only 3 months ago (plus a few days). Such a gap is normal for such an item. Even for the freshly announced CA58, Kawai James just said that he would expect that they will be in shops maybe in March. Deducing a possible technical issue from that is a bit ridiculous.
Posted By: PianoGuyStuart

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/18/18 12:25 PM

Hardly.

Common sense.

If Apple has a launch date and then pushes it back a month you know its a technical issue.

I don't see that this is any different, other then that its a lot longer period, so considerably more likely.
Posted By: jokke

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/18/18 02:03 PM

Just noticed this in a Finnish digital piano shop that also carries Kawai:

https://www.digitalpiano.fi/kawai-novus-nv10.html

Price is 9000€, and there's at least stated availability. I visited their store in December and they said they should get one on the floor, perhaps on January. Once I noted it's in the web, I called them, but unfortunately currently they only have one at Copenhagen (it's a subsidiary or close partnership with a large Danish music store).

Once customer reportedly had been excited enough to book flights to Copenhagen to check it out, and they had a waiting list of people to be notified once NV10 is available for testing in Finland. So it seems there is demand even in a country with 5M people.

(admittedly the climate changes around the year a bit harsher for acoustics, and most people in capital area don't have room for a grand, so maybe not so surprising).

I find the price quite nice, especially if there was any room for negotiation. If N2X will come out around 11 000€, the NV10 will be between new N1 and possibly discounted N2s, and the N2X.
Posted By: Bambers

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/18/18 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by PianoGuyStuart


If Apple has a launch date and then pushes it back a month you know its a technical issue.

I don't see that this is any different, other then that its a lot longer period, so considerably more likely.


Given the apparent demand on this the 'technical issue' may simply be a decision to have prioritised japanese demand somewhat.

Anyway I'm not sure what bonners have been saying but it's been clear from various places that 'mid Jan' has been a likely EU delivery date for yonks now (at least since autumn or so), so end Jan would be about 2 weeks?
Posted By: PianoGuyStuart

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/18/18 03:22 PM

I'm curious. If people were lining up £8000 for a piano. The NV10 or an acoustic grand.

Do you think you could get a good acoustic grand for £8000?
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/18/18 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by PianoGuyStuart
I'm curious. If people were lining up £8000 for a piano. The NV10 or an acoustic grand.

Do you think you could get a good acoustic grand for £8000?

For me that question is irrelevant, because I do not want an acoustic grand.

But honestly, no, unless you are very luck on the used market, I don't think you can find a good grand for that price.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/18/18 03:43 PM

Depends on your criteria. I've seen very well-behaving second-hand german grands (admittedly small ones) for around €3000.
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/18/18 04:01 PM

I should have been more specific. I meant: “For that budget you must make a lucky find on the used market, because you won’t find a good new grand for that price.”
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/18/18 04:11 PM

Originally Posted by PianoGuyStuart
Hardly.

Common sense.

If Apple has a launch date and then pushes it back a month you know its a technical issue.

I don't see that this is any different, other then that its a lot longer period, so considerably more likely.

You are comparing apples with oranges.

Apple has two dates: The announcement date when the new product is announced, together with its release date. And that release date. If the actual release should then be later than this release date, then it might be reasonable to assume some sort of problem.

Kawai however only had an announcement date (back in October). They never gave a release date. They only said that they are now finished with the Novus and will now bring it to market. Without any target date. As no date was given, by definition it is impossible to be “too late “ for that date.

And taking a few months to bring a new piano to market overseas is not surprising to me.
Posted By: Pologuy

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/18/18 04:48 PM

Originally Posted by JoBert
Oh come on. What "big gap"? The announcement was only 3 months ago (plus a few days). Such a gap is normal for such an item. Even for the freshly announced CA58, Kawai James just said that he would expect that they will be in shops maybe in March. Deducing a possible technical issue from that is a bit ridiculous.


Originally Posted by JoBert

You are comparing apples with oranges.

Apple has two dates: The announcement date when the new product is announced, together with its release date. And that release date. If the actual release should then be later than this release date, then it might be reasonable to assume some sort of problem.

Kawai however only had an announcement date (back in October). They never gave a release date. They only said that they are now finished with the Novus and will now bring it to market. Without any target date. As no date was given, by definition it is impossible to be “too late “ for that date.

And taking a few months to bring a new piano to market overseas is not surprising to me.


Kawai "announced" the NV10 in October of 2017 - really?

"only 3 months ago" - really?

Musikmesse 2017 was over 9 months ago...

Kawai's press release again "announcing" the NV10 was 7 months ago.

Kawai's promotional videos of the NV10 started 6 months ago.

Etc., etc., etc.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/19/18 01:58 AM

Pologuy, I don't wish to give the impression that I'm always correcting your posts, but...

Originally Posted by Pologuy
Musikmesse 2017 was over 9 months ago...


As the title of this thread states, the NV10 exhibited at Musicmesse last year was a preview - a work-in-progress prototype, i.e. not the finished instrument.

Originally Posted by Pologuy
Kawai's press release again "announcing" the NV10 was 7 months ago.


Yes, but for the Japanese domestic market, and that was largely to coincide with a separate event (arguably too early in my opinion, but I'm not responsible for domestic matters).

Originally Posted by Pologuy
Kawai's promotional videos of the NV10 started 6 months ago.


May I ask which videos you are referring to, please?

To reiterate, the NV10 was officially announced for the overseas market on October 20th here. At that time, an exact availability date was not specified, however the instrument has obviously arrived at a small selection of stores, and will gradually become available to more dealers in the weeks and months ahead.

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: PianoZac

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/19/18 02:49 AM

I would so love to have the NV10. Kawai should sell many units. Out of curiosity James, and you don’t have to answer honestly wink but any plans for a NV10 in a grand style cabinet to go against the N3X and V-Piano Grand?
Posted By: Pologuy

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/19/18 02:56 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Pologuy, I don't wish to give the impression that I'm always correcting your posts, but...

Originally Posted by Pologuy
Musikmesse 2017 was over 9 months ago...


As the title of this thread states, the NV10 exhibited at Musicmesse last year was a preview - a work-in-progress prototype, i.e. not the finished instrument.

Originally Posted by Pologuy
Kawai's press release again "announcing" the NV10 was 7 months ago.


Yes, but for the Japanese domestic market, and that was largely to coincide with a separate event (arguably too early in my opinion, but I'm not responsible for domestic matters).

Originally Posted by Pologuy
Kawai's promotional videos of the NV10 started 6 months ago.


May I ask which videos you are referring to, please?

To reiterate, the NV10 was officially announced for the overseas market on October 20th here. At that time, an exact availability date was not specified, however the instrument has obviously arrived at a small selection of stores, and will gradually become available to more dealers in the weeks and months ahead.

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,
James
x


With all due respect, James, you can use whatever semantics you want.

Preview, announcement, demo, announced in just certain markets, etc...

Why are you not as forthcoming in correcting peoples responses in the thread entitled - Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation

Where the OP was told by a major Kawai dealership in the UK that the Novus (either the one (or two?) they had, or the Novus in general - a matter still in dispute) was not available to be played. It seems there were issues and Kawai was not happy with keyboard\action in question and it was removed from the floor.

You said that you were going to respond - but were on holiday - and then never did.

Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/19/18 04:05 AM

Pologuy, it's not really my place to question the decisions of my colleagues at Kawai Europe or Kawai UK.

However, perhaps they opted to hold their NV10 stock a little longer in order to update the software to the latest available version?

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: David B

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/19/18 07:16 AM

Originally Posted by Pologuy


With all due respect, James, you can use whatever semantics you want.

Preview, announcement, demo, announced in just certain markets, etc...


"Preview" is in the title of this thread, and "preview" was also used to describe (on the Kawai website) what they were doing with the NV10 at Musicmesse 2017.

Just because you are unable to grasp the concept that a "preview" does not have to mean an official launch doesn't make your criticism of Kawai and/or James legitimate. I'm surprised it's even taken seriously.

The fact that James even responds to you is a testament to his professionalism and patience. I would have written you off a long time ago (regarding this subject) since it seems to me that you're mostly interested in criticizing.

God Bless,
David
Posted By: EssBrace

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/19/18 08:52 AM

Originally Posted by David B
The fact that James even responds to you is a testament to his professionalism and patience. I would have written you off a long time ago (regarding this subject) since it seems to me that you're mostly interested in criticizing.


This
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/19/18 09:44 AM

Many people on this forum have their madnesses (me included). I missed what provoked Pologuy to start criticizing NV10 though and what point he is trying to make. Polo, why the bashing?
Posted By: PianoGuyStuart

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/19/18 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Many people on this forum have their madnesses (me included). I missed what provoked Pologuy to start criticizing NV10 though and what point he is trying to make. Polo, why the bashing?


It is hardly 'bashing' to make what seems a perfectly legitimate point.

If all the dealers were expecting delivery of the NV10 between October and December 2017, and then it still hasn't arrived over half way through January 2018 (having missed Christmas, which even in the piano world must be a time when they expect an uptick in sales), then it seems reasonable to suspect technical problems with the piano caused the delay.

This is relevant, because to me it indicates an issue which could potentially affect early batches of the piano.

Of course it may not. But then, if you are paying out £8000 for a piano, it would give me pause to perhaps wait for early 'real' user impressions, or you could end up with something like the NU1X issue (referenced on another thread on here), where you have a problem that the manufacturer dismisses as though its nothing, but real users actually care about.

Either way Kawai are unlikely to 'market' problems, but that doesn't mean the rest of us should leave our common sense at the door.

That isn't 'bashing'. It is simply highlighting potential real-world buying considerations that people should factor in before jumping on what is a new and as yet un-reviewed (by any real buyers) piano.

The piano will hopefully be great. Fingers crossed.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/19/18 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by PianoZac
I would so love to have the NV10. Kawai should sell many units. Out of curiosity James, and you don’t have to answer honestly wink but any plans for a NV10 in a grand style cabinet to go against the N3X and V-Piano Grand?


This
Posted By: Bambers

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/19/18 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by PianoGuyStuart
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Many people on this forum have their madnesses (me included). I missed what provoked Pologuy to start criticizing NV10 though and what point he is trying to make. Polo, why the bashing?


It is hardly 'bashing' to make what seems a perfectly legitimate point.

If all the dealers were expecting delivery of the NV10 between October and December 2017, and then it still hasn't arrived over half way through January 2018 (having missed Christmas, which even in the piano world must be a time when they expect an uptick in sales), then it seems reasonable to suspect technical problems with the piano caused the delay.


There was intention to get this to europe by the end of the year back in the spring preview, it was however, pretty clear that actual physical availability had slipped a bit by the time of the official October announcement to mid Jan or so for non japan markets.

As for Polo, I think it was a combination of the early preview (which he seems to have repeatedly interpreted as a launch) but perhaps mostly the price which he seemed to repeatedly convince himself to be as low as some of the discounts the 7 year old N2 stock has been going for in the US (which seems to be his budget limit) and then getting annoyed when attempting to translate other market prices (which is pretty futile anyway by the time you have differences in sales/import taxes, whether these have to be displayed as part of the list price, the market differences in how much the list price is artificially boosted in order to offer a generic non discount to the customer etc etc) and then finding out that they are more expensive than the $8-8.5k you can get an N2 for if you shop around in the US.

Edit: For clarity, if I recall pre lunch correctly I was adding the below as a non marked edit while Kawai James was ^thating so the below probably isn't included the thating.

As I think has been alluded to by others in the various threads, the choice for US folk after a hybrid is either jump now for a cheap N2 before the old stock disappears if you're content to put up with the limitations (ye olde sound engine, possible line in noise gate issue), or wait and see how the nv10 compares vs the N1X/N2X but risk being unable to grab an old N2 by that point.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/19/18 12:37 PM

^ That. wink
Posted By: EssBrace

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/19/18 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
^ That. wink


This
Posted By: EssBrace

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/19/18 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by Kawai James
^ That. wink


This


And that
Posted By: PianoZac

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/19/18 01:12 PM

Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by Kawai James
^ That. wink


This


And that

Haha laugh
Posted By: bSharp(C)yclist

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/19/18 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by Bambers

As I think has been alluded to by others in the various threads, the choice for US folk after a hybrid is either jump now for a cheap N2 before the old stock disappears if you're content to put up with the limitations (ye olde sound engine, possible line in noise gate issue), or wait and see how the nv10 compares vs the N1X/N2X but risk being unable to grab an old N2 by that point.


You might see more used N2s available then. Who knows. I will certainly check out the N2X and NV10 when they become available. If I think it's that much better I may consider changing, but it might be hard to sell a used N2.
Posted By: karvala

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/19/18 04:28 PM

Originally Posted by PianoGuyStuart
I'm curious. If people were lining up £8000 for a piano. The NV10 or an acoustic grand.

Do you think you could get a good acoustic grand for £8000?


I think it depends on your interpretation of "good", but you can do a strict comparison in terms of action by asking "can I get an acoustic grand with the Millennium III action for £8000?", and the short answer is no. That's what makes the NV10 an interesting proposition for anyone who definitely doesn't want an acoustic sound (neighbours etc.) and/or has limited space. You can get a Kawai GL10 with that action, and an ATX2 silent system (giving you electronic sounds/midi control, as well as the acoustic sounds) for just over £11000, so it's not THAT much more. The existence of such systems does render the high-end hybrids rather redundant except in certain rather specific circumstances related to space and/or not wanting to use VSTs etc.. I wrote a detailed post listing all of the various options a few weeks ago which you can see here.
Posted By: Maartin

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/19/18 04:36 PM

>"can I get an acoustic grand with the Millennium III action for £8000?", and the short answer is no.

Kawai GL10 can be had for just under £8000 karvala.

e.g. https://www.rimmersmusic.co.uk/kawai-gl-10-grand-piano-p25538
Posted By: karvala

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/19/18 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by Maartin
>"can I get an acoustic grand with the Millennium III action for £8000?", and the short answer is no.

Kawai GL10 can be had for just under £8000 karvala.

e.g. https://www.rimmersmusic.co.uk/kawai-gl-10-grand-piano-p25538


Good correction, you're absolutely right. smile They're cheaper than when I last looked!
Posted By: Osho

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/19/18 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by karvala
Originally Posted by Maartin
>"can I get an acoustic grand with the Millennium III action for £8000?", and the short answer is no.

Kawai GL10 can be had for just under £8000 karvala.

e.g. https://www.rimmersmusic.co.uk/kawai-gl-10-grand-piano-p25538


Good correction, you're absolutely right. smile They're cheaper than when I last looked!


Yes, but these do not have silent system. Those add additional £3000 or so I would think (I haven't priced them so don't know). Even with the silent system, you will not have a speaker - so no 'low volume' playing without headphones - for that you will have to invest in additional monitors.. With the added inconvenience of placing them appropriately and routing ugly wires etc. Also, keep in mind that the acoustic piano sound will be very unsatisfying in bass for the low end (compared to the sound of samples through good monitors).

I recently decided against buying a 5' 10" Kawai RX-2 (15 year used but in mint condition) for $7000 - because the bass was just too unsatisfactory - I would rather listen to quality VSTs via headphones or speakers of something like NV10/N2/N2X.

Osho
Posted By: ando

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/19/18 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by Osho


I recently decided against buying a 5' 10" Kawai RX-2 (15 year used but in mint condition) for $7000 - because the bass was just too unsatisfactory - I would rather listen to quality VSTs via headphones or speakers of something like NV10/N2/N2X.

Osho

Wow, I would have taken the RX-2 in a heartbeat. The bass isn't that bad, and how often are we really pounding away in the low bass anyway? Each to their own though.
Posted By: lingcod

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/23/18 09:54 PM

Looks like these videos are new and just got posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0pYR-AIwAA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lmqya_RKYf4
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/23/18 10:56 PM

Nice find!

In the first video, it says "The keyboard mechanics are identical with the Millennium III mechanics in an acoustic Kawai concert grand...the only difference is in the hammerheads."

I have to wonder to what extent that's accurate? While I'm not expecting the action to be pulled directly from an SK-EX, it would be interesting to know if this is talking about the materials, regulation, keylength, etc. Or maybe it was meant more as a generic statement?

Also, it looks like the music rest partially occludes two of the back speakers when it's down? I assume there is not much impact to the sound, but it seems like an odd tradeoff.
Posted By: HwyStar

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/23/18 11:05 PM

Interesting how it talks about the down weight is lessened when the damper pedal is pushed down. I’ve never thought about that; but ya, that’s what they do!
Posted By: winnyec

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/24/18 02:40 AM

Hmm… this is the very first sentence:
Quote
The NV10 is the debut model in the new Novus hybrid digital piano range.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/24/18 02:47 AM

Originally Posted by HwyStar
Interesting how it talks about the down weight is lessened when the damper pedal is pushed down. I’ve never thought about that; but ya, that’s what they do!


That's always been the big innovation with the Novus' real grand action--a working damper mechanism smile

Originally Posted by winnyec
Hmm… this is the very first sentence:
Quote
The NV10 is the debut model in the new Novus hybrid digital piano range.


Yeah, I think it was always claimed that the NV10 would be the first in a line.
Posted By: Osho

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/24/18 02:55 AM

I am curious where the 3 sensors are? Are there any that senses the hammer itself?

Osho
Posted By: bSharp(C)yclist

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/24/18 03:01 AM

It looks to be on the US site now. I didn't see it there earlier today.

http://www.kawaius.com/
Posted By: QuinGold

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/24/18 05:16 AM

FYI, Most manufacturers have previews days on the Weds. before NAMM opens (tomorrow) for only their dealers; that's when the big reveals happen. I expect some stuff may leak out Weds.
Posted By: Osho

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/24/18 07:47 AM

Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
It looks to be on the US site now. I didn't see it there earlier today.

http://www.kawaius.com/

It's definitely getting closer - I can smell it!

BTW, is there a reason why Kawai US site looks like it is from 90s?

Osho
Posted By: Cosi

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/24/18 09:32 AM

Strange, the Novus sounds much better on these official videos than in some random videos on youtube. The first commercial video with that japanese pianist was just a scam, with a Pianotech/other Vst instead of the sound of the real sound engine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQTJLKVoapA
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/24/18 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by Cosi
The first commercial video with that japanese pianist was just a scam, with a Pianotech/other Vst instead of the sound of the real sound engine.


With the greatest respect, this is nonsense not correct.

The promo video sound was recorded directly from the NV10 used in the video.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/24/18 11:02 AM

1. I can't tell if that statement is impugning Kawai, or showering it with compliments over its new and existing sound engines.

2. That would be an exceptionally bold scam to attempt, as the video highlights the selection of pianist mode in the first song and switch to concert ex in the second.

What an odd accusation to make out of the blue.
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/24/18 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Osho
I am curious where the 3 sensors are? Are there any that senses the hammer itself?

This image (from the Novus preview website) shows sensors that are located on the bases of the hammers shanks, close to the hinges:
[Linked Image]
The upper image shows the little optical sensor "noses" (I don't have a better name for them) that are attached to the hammers near the hinges, while the sensor array that is usually above them was dismounted for the image.
The lower image shows the sensor array in place above the hammer shanks, with the little holes where the sensor noses are detected by the optical sensors if a key is pressed (some keys are pressed in that image). I assume that the yellow "laser beam" that is visible in the second image was added in Photoshop or so, to illustrate how the optical sensors pick up the hammer movement by detecting the sensor noses.

I assume that these optical sensors are used to detect hammer velocity (in contrast to "normal" DPs that detect key velocity and infer hammer velocity from it).

I also assume that this is combined either with a key-down/up sensor or a damper-weight-down/up sensor, to know when the dampers are lifted/dropped.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/24/18 11:51 AM

JoBert, yes, you're spot on. wink

We call those noses "shutters".

The optical sensor system is essentially the same as that found in a Kawai ATX/ATX2 grand piano.
The system works well, but is rather difficult to photograph and explain effectively (hence the added 'friendly' yellow laser beam) - that's something I have to work on next...

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/24/18 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
The system works well, but is rather difficult to photograph and explain effectively (hence the added 'friendly' yellow laser beam) - that's something I have to work on next...

James, I have a camera.
I can photograph this for you.
I'll just send you a PM with my address, so that you can send me a Novus to photograph, OK?
And I think it'll probably be best if we then save you the shipping costs for sending it back...
wink
Posted By: winnyec

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/24/18 01:23 PM

Yes, there were hints (clearer and more vague), but of all I have seen/heard, by far this one was the most explicit one. It still tells nothing of where NV10 will be in that range though, about which I am very intrigued.
Posted By: Bambers

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/24/18 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
In the first video, it says "The keyboard mechanics are identical with the Millennium III mechanics in an acoustic Kawai concert grand...the only difference is in the hammerheads."

I have to wonder to what extent that's accurate? While I'm not expecting the action to be pulled directly from an SK-EX, it would be interesting to know if this is talking about the materials, regulation, keylength, etc. Or maybe it was meant more as a generic statement?


Well I think the thing to consider is that 'action' in the digital piano world includes the keys as a fundamental part, hence we bang on about pivot length etc. In acoustics, the 'action' doesn't tend to include the keysticks which are somewhat separate. The 'action' in terms of the wippen/jack/escapement mechanism is, as far as I'm aware, identical throughout most of each manufacturers ranges. Kawai and Yamaha make their own but many other acoustic manufacturers simply buy in a standard action from a third party (eg Renner or WNG actions).

Pivot length varies, but that is a function of piano size and, to an extent, manufacturer choice (you can go longer than a minimum at the expense of having a longer overall piano for a specified length of strings). So the novus doesn't have the pivot length anywhere near an SK-EX (the keys seem to be from the GL line given the lack of neotex, I'm guessing a GL30 on the length) but the action is the same (minus hammers and dampers being replaced by weighted bits)

Obviously the regulation might be set to a more exacting level on an SK-EX but this is not something that stays fixed over time so this doesn't really seem relevant. A concert SK-EX will generally get far more attention in terms of regulation etc anyway, especially if it's used by top flight pianists who like to have things set up the way they want them.

Also I recall yamaha advertise the use of a different hammer shank material on at some point up their range, but this is not something I recall seeing in kawai's acoustic marketing blurb, given the lack of hammers hitting things it probably makes no difference to a hybrid. Felts/hammer quality can vary as well but again, irrelevant to a hybrid.
Posted By: QuinGold

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/25/18 07:21 PM

Just played it at Kawai booth at NAMM, very nice. Quiet booth, you could play it all day, Nice display. I liked the Jazz sounds but can’t say I particularly like the Kawai concert grands (just me).

List 19,900 or 950? Quoting salesman Sean: Some are “on the water” now but only going to a few dealers. Limited supply for 6-9 months.

Nor is it a case of one big back order list as it sounded like some dealers will be getting more than others etc.
Posted By: Pologuy

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/25/18 07:25 PM

Originally Posted by QuinGold
Just played it at Kawai booth at NAMM, very nice. Quiet booth, you could play it all day, Nice display. I liked the Jazz sounds but can’t say I particularly like the Kawai concert grands (just me).

List 19,900 or 950? Quoting salesman Sean: Some are “on the water” now but only going to a few dealers. Limited supply for 6-9 months.

Nor is it a case of one big back order list as it sounded like some dealers will be getting more than others etc.


Did you just type that MSRP is $19,900...?
Posted By: Cosi

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/25/18 08:10 PM

Originally Posted by QuinGold
Just played it at Kawai booth at NAMM, very nice. Quiet booth, you could play it all day, Nice display.


Can you please elaborate just a little more, were you impressed by the overall sound ? How the action felt for you ? Thx
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/25/18 09:09 PM

Originally Posted by Cosi
Originally Posted by QuinGold
Just played it at Kawai booth at NAMM, very nice. Quiet booth, you could play it all day, Nice display.


Can you please elaborate just a little more, were you impressed by the overall sound ? How the action felt for you ? Thx


I get the feeling QuinGold is updating real-time on mobile, in the middle of the convention floor. Hopefully he/she will have a chance later in the day to more fully write out initial impressions. I'm looking forward to seeing it.
Posted By: QuinGold

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/25/18 09:21 PM

Sorry Cosi, I was posting from my phone and it's hard to see this Forum on it. Now I'm back in hotel on laptop.

Kawai's booth (Level 3, room 300) report:

No one was demo'ing the Novus - it was up on a pedestal but they really needed to have a demo artist there all day if you ask me. I played it until I got bored (on headphones so as not to embarrass myself!). Went through every sound - some of them sounded a bit similar to me. I really only loved the Jazz and Old Jazz sounds. The concert grands sounded a bit sterile (YMMV).

The salesman came over later with a "Buyer", and I heard the sound through the speakers then. Speakers on top look a bit wimpy compared to the N3X, but would have to compare specs. Availability 6-9 months, but sounds like it will be limited to big dealers, and list of just under $20K (I think he said $19 - 9, which I take it to mean $19,900 list).

The interface on the left side is really nice on the Novus, very contemporary looking, colorful, etc. The headphone volume is underneath the cabinet - where it took me eons to find - I blasted my ear drums for 10 minutes going through every menu looking for phone volume. (Note to Kawai: There is a Phones menu item - why not put a reminder in small print that "Volume control is under cabinet"?) Or even a label on the piano itself for attendees? Obviously someone played it at full volume, then plugged in the headphones and walk away.

As for the sound: Maybe it's just me, but the Kawai SOUND does nothing for me - except for the Old Jazz sound, which I loved. In fact, I stopped by the Casio booth and played their Grand Hybrid 500 again (I camped out there last year so was familiar with it). I preferred the Casio sounds. YMMV of course.

(Am I right in thinking that Pianoteq's "K" library is also Kawai? I don't like the sound of that piano either if so.)

I have a feeling that if you already like the Kawai sound, you'll be happy with the Novus. I just find it leaves me a bit cold. (Except the Old Jazz sound which I will have to find on a VS somewhere.)

I'm glad I got a chance to play today. I'll rinse and repeat all three booths tomorrow and see if feelings change. BTW, I am not an expert; I don't have much experience with playing concert grands or how they work.

I am actually shopping for a high-end hybrid at the show, but don't want to wait too long. Leaning towards Yamaha N3X right now (since NX2 is not an option) if I can get a good price.
Posted By: Osho

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/25/18 09:42 PM

Originally Posted by QuinGold
The salesman came over later with a "Buyer", and I heard the sound through the speakers then. Speakers on top look a bit wimpy compared to the N3X, but would have to compare specs. Availability 6-9 months, but sounds like it will be limited to big dealers, and list of just under $20K (I think he said $19 - 9, which I take it to mean $19,900 list).


This is going to make a lot of people unhappy in this thread - including me.

Osho
Posted By: Pologuy

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/25/18 09:47 PM

Originally Posted by Osho
Originally Posted by QuinGold
Availability 6-9 months, but sounds like it will be limited to big dealers, and list of just under $20K (I think he said $19 - 9, which I take it to mean $19,900 list).


This is going to make a lot of people unhappy in this thread - including me.

Osho


LMAO - especially since it lists in Japan for $7,895!
Posted By: dancingfish

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/25/18 09:49 PM

Originally Posted by QuinGold

The salesman came over later with a "Buyer", and I heard the sound through the speakers then. Speakers on top look a bit wimpy compared to the N3X, but would have to compare specs. Availability 6-9 months, but sounds like it will be limited to big dealers, and list of just under $20K (I think he said $19 - 9, which I take it to mean $19,900 list).


Is it possible that he said "ninety nine" instead of "nineteen nine"? I guess we'll find out soon enough.

Thanks for reporting from the floor!
Posted By: QuinGold

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/25/18 10:02 PM

Perhaps I misheard (he was talking fast), although I thought I said "just under 20" and he didn't correct me. He did say that dealers could charge whatever they liked. If that price sounds out to lunch, then standby and I'll report back in a few hours. Apart from checking out sheet music books, I don't have anything else to do for two days!
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/25/18 10:17 PM

Originally Posted by QuinGold
Perhaps I misheard (he was talking fast), although I thought I said "just under 20" and he didn't correct me. He did say that dealers could charge whatever they liked. If that price sounds out to lunch, then standby and I'll report back in a few hours. Apart from checking out sheet music books, I don't have anything else to do for two days!

That price would be double the price compared to Germany, so it would indeed be interesting to find out if it's the real price or a misunderstanding.
Posted By: Cosi

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/25/18 10:37 PM

Thanks a lot for your report, QuinGold. I knew the sound would be a disappointment, a least for some people. But this price seems so high, it's weird, price is always roughly 9000 € in european online shops...
Posted By: akc42

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/25/18 10:42 PM

Bonners Music in the UK have it on their web site (https://www.bonnersmusic.co.uk/pianos-kawai-digital-pianos-kawai-novus.irc) for GBP 8199, so nearly $20K seems a bit odd.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/25/18 11:03 PM

Let's not haul out the pitchforks just yet. The price quoted was most likely a mistake.

QuinGold, I notice that you spent a lot of time talking about the tone and the speakers, but almost nothing about the actual action. Is there anything you can shed on that? If you've played Kawai GL/GX/SK grands, any thoughts on how the Novus compares in terms of touch and regulation?

Thanks!
Posted By: QuinGold

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/25/18 11:10 PM

Checked price: $19,900 confirmed.
Going to “quality dealers” not necessarily “big” dealers and very limited supply.
Posted By: Chrispy

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/25/18 11:16 PM

Originally Posted by QuinGold
Checked price: $19,900 confirmed.
Going to “quality dealers” not necessarily “big” dealers and very limited supply.


😲that's really unexpected based on international MSRP. Maybe they want to give dealers tons of room to play with the price?
Posted By: karvala

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/25/18 11:18 PM

That price is bonkers. You can get a Kawai acoustic Grand with the same Millennium action AND a silent system which will get you DP functions include midi control etc., for substantially less than that, and of course you get the actual acoustic piano as part of it! Why in the world would anyone pay anything like $19,900 for an NV10? Is it possible, given the prices listed on various sites, that the rep is misinformed?
Posted By: newer player

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/25/18 11:21 PM

Originally Posted by QuinGold
Going to “quality dealers” not necessarily “big” dealers and very limited supply.


A few weeks ago, a good US dealer told me he was elated that Kawai choose him to distribute Novus. Also emphasized not many dealers would be selling the Novus. It was obvious he was quite happy for the opportunity.

He thought supply and availability would improve over 2018 so was not particularly worried about scarcity later in the year as production ramps up; he qualified that noting he had no hard evidence.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/25/18 11:36 PM

Yeah, I'm not worried AT ALL about that being the real price.

No shade to QuinGold, who is just relaying what he directly heard from the Kawai rep there, but that price is not only beyond the pale, but goes against the price I was quoted by a local shop that says they already sold one.

I think this'll get cleared up really quickly.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/25/18 11:40 PM

QuinGold, thank you for sharing your experience of the NV10.

Originally Posted by QuinGold
The headphone volume is underneath the cabinet - where it took me eons to find...


The volume knob is located on the same block as the power button (and headphones/USB connectors), so I expect most customers will instinctively adjust the volume immediately after turning on the instrument.

Originally Posted by QuinGold
(Note to Kawai: There is a Phones menu item - why not put a reminder in small print that "Volume control is under cabinet"?)


I personally don't believe this is necessary. However, if we receive sufficient complaints from customers and dealers, we will have to consider ways to improve the visibility of the volume control (while still keeping it as discreet as possible).

Originally Posted by QuinGold
Or even a label on the piano itself for attendees?


Again, that's also something we may wish to consider.

Originally Posted by QuinGold
As for the sound: Maybe it's just me, but the Kawai SOUND does nothing for me - except for the Old Jazz sound, which I loved.


The 'Jazz Old School' sound uses the existing 'Harmonic Imaging XL' sound engine ('SOUND mode').
May I ask if you had a chance to try the 'PIANIST mode', which utilises the new 'SK-EX Rendering' sound engine? There are 10 tonal characters (selected by swiping left/right) including a 'Jazz' character that I really enjoy.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: Pologuy

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/26/18 12:56 AM

Just got off the phone with senior management at Kawai US...

$19,900 MSRP confirmed.

LMAO

Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/26/18 01:05 AM

Originally Posted by Pologuy
Just got off the phone with Senior Management at Kawai US...

$19,900 MSRP confirmed.

LMAO


I guess you don't have to worry about your flagship argument anymore wink
Posted By: Osho

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/26/18 01:06 AM

Originally Posted by Pologuy
Just got off the phone with Senior Management at Kawai US...

$19,900 MSRP confirmed.

LMAO


Sounds like they want each metro market to set their own % discount. Densly populated and relatively affluent (e.g. SF Bay or NY Manhatten) will have much higher street price than less affluent markets.

Osho
Posted By: Bambers

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/26/18 01:22 AM

Still daftly ambitious given n3x US MRSP is $22k.

Do kawai US have similarly inflated list prices for their other DPs vs the rest of the world. How much is a cs11 or ca98?
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/26/18 01:24 AM

FWIW the holiday sale price of an N3X last year was $16k I believe.
Posted By: Pete14

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/26/18 01:25 AM

I believe the CS11 sells for about $5,500.
Posted By: Osho

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/26/18 01:31 AM

Another way to think about it is that Kawai has a very very limited supply - so they want to milk the market as much as possible with their limited inventory. Once the supply improves, the MSRP or the street price will definitely come down.

Osho
Posted By: QuinGold

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/26/18 02:57 AM

I bet you're right about the dealers having a lot of leeway to charge more early on and then cut deals as inventory picks up.

One thing more about NV10 is that it is boxy and not that attractive from the back. You even see rows of screws along the back of the cabinet. I have to imagine that Kawai is planning a higher-end model with a more curvy back end, more akin to Avant Grand 3. Even Roland is doing a baby grand look now (their "digital grand"). I was picturing something nice enough to turn around so I could face the room, and not the wall, so bit disappointed with that aspect.

I spent another good while playing the Novus again this afternoon. I did like the sounds a bit better once I got to play them again, although I still find them a little "clean" for want of a better word. Maybe that's why I liked the Jazz Old School more; it had a bit of grit.

These are the sounds I found:
SK-EX Concert Grand
EX Concert Grand
SK-5 Grand Piano
Jazz Clean
Jazz Old School
Warm Grand
Warm Grand 2
Standard Grand

2nd bank:
Pop Grand
Pop Grand 2
Pop Piano
New Age Grand
Upright Piano
Modern Piano
Boogie Piano
Honky tonk

3rd Bank:
Jazz Organ
Blues Organ
Gospel Organ
Drawbar Organ, 1, 2, 3, 4
(please don't ask me about the sounds as I hate organs!)

From what I remember, inside the Concert Grand bank there were Bright and Mellow etc variations. One minute I figured out how to access them, next minute I couldn't remember.

The interface is quite "showy" and colorful, with a sort of iPhone swiping action, but after a while I really just longed for a list (like I just typed above) to swipe up and select from, instead of having to swipe left/right and up/down.

Someone asked earlier about the action. I liked it just fine, but I am not an expert on keyboard action so I will defer to others. (I use to play synths back in the day, so keyboard action is not my forte.) But if I was to rank my favorite action of the day, I'd have to say Avant Grande then Novus, but it's close. (But the AG has an odd thing that when you press the key, you see a rounded "notch" cut out of the bottom of the key next to the depressed key - not sure what is up with that.)

BTW, I met Gregg playing the second Novus and hopefully he'll chime in too.

[Btw, he recommended I check out the Ravenscroft booth and I was glad I did. They have a controller keyboard that I really liked it; there was something about it - a spring in its step if you will; I just felt like I wanted to play lots of notes really fast! I bet jazz pianists would love it.]

To James from Kawai - are you at NAMM?
Posted By: PianoZac

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/26/18 03:03 AM

I reserve judgment until my dealer gets one in, but at $20,000, it’s going to be a flop. And I feel at least somewhat comfortable in saying it is not worth close to Yamaha N3X money. And certainly not worth $8,000 over MSRP of the N2. I’m a huge Kawai fan but I’m a bit puzzled by they’re thinking on this one. About as puzzled as I am that Yamaha elected not to release the N1X/N2X. confused Perhaps they got wind of Kawai charging $20,000 for the NV10 and figured nobody would be paying that much for an comparable N2 instrument so no need to update the N2 after all... grin
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/26/18 03:12 AM

That notch is probably a lead counterweight in the keystick. Most acoustic grands have these, and they are carried over in the keys of the AG and the Novus.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/26/18 04:02 AM

Hello QuinGold,

Originally Posted by QuinGold
I spent another good while playing the Novus again this afternoon. I did like the sounds a bit better once I got to play them again, although I still find them a little "clean" for want of a better word. Maybe that's why I liked the Jazz Old School more; it had a bit of grit.

These are the sounds I found:
SK-EX Concert Grand
EX Concert Grand
SK-5 Grand Piano
Jazz Clean
Jazz Old School
Warm Grand
Warm Grand 2
Standard Grand
...


Those sounds are from the SOUND mode. My recommendation would be to tap the PIANIST mode button in the bottom left of the screen to activate the new 'SK-EX Rendering' sound engine, then swipe left/right to change the tonal character (again, Jazz and Vintage being among my favourites).

Originally Posted by QuinGold
[Btw, he recommended I check out the Ravenscroft booth and I was glad I did. They have a controller keyboard that I really liked it; there was something about it - a spring in its step if you will; I just felt like I wanted to play lots of notes really fast! I bet jazz pianists would love it.]


I believe this is a modified version of the VPC1.

Originally Posted by QuinGold
To James from Kawai - are you at NAMM?


No, I'm afraid not, however some of my colleagues are at the show.

Thanks again for your feedback.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: Schuberto

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/26/18 05:50 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James


I believe this is a modified version of the VPC1.



Understood yippie
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/26/18 06:38 AM

Originally Posted by Schuberto
Originally Posted by Kawai James


I believe this is a modified version of the VPC1.



Understood yippie

That would be the special Ravenscroft version of the VPC1, not a "disguised" VPC2, in case that's what you were thinking...
Posted By: EssBrace

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/26/18 07:42 AM

All very odd.

No one's going to pay that price. Kawai USA will either have to revise that price and be more sensible or they will sell zero units. So now it's up to them.

QuinGold obviously is not using the brand new sound engine on Novus but is instead using the older Hi-XL sounds - so this was a big missed opportunity for him. Yes, they will be a bit sterile sounding through headphones on sound mode but certainly less so than AvantGrand. AvantGrand only comes into its own through onboard speakers.

Action seems to be of little importance to him. Frankly, I do have to question why he's looking for a high-end hybrid if action is not the single most important factor in his purchase selection. Once you remove the desire/need for the best possible action a whole world of choice opens up (all at far lower prices).

Posted By: QuinGold

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/26/18 08:07 AM

"Those sounds are from the SOUND mode. My recommendation would be to tap the PIANIST mode button in the bottom left of the screen to activate the new 'SK-EX Rendering' sound engine, then swipe left/right to change the tonal character (again, Jazz and Vintage being among my favourites)."

Thanks James, I will check out the booth again tomorrow and explore Pianist mode. I have the whole weekend here. Note that there is nothing on the Novus to say "the new/good stuff is under the Pianist button...". I don't know Kawai pianos so I saw a list of sounds and played them all. I did explore every button, including Pianist, but I'll return again tomorrow and give it another good listen.

I wish you were here - or someone like you! The sales reps seem to be just sales reps. No one is playing the pianos except the customers, from what I can tell. It would have been nice if there was a Kawai demo artist at the Novus to walk through the features. (The reason I bought the DGX-660 two years ago is that I could learn all about it from the Yamaha demo artist who was sitting there all day every day playing and answering questions and demo'ing to anyone who asked.)

EssBrace:

As for action: I did not say that action was not the single most important factor for me. Where did I say that? I'm looking for a great feel and a great sound. The interface (and even cost) comes last. But I've never owned a concert grand, only an upright and synths. I don't understand exactly how the key action works on grands (or even uprights for that matter). Right now, I just know what I like the feel of, which is a very personal thing imo. I also know I've outgrown the digital piano I have so am looking for something solid that I will have for a long time.

I know there are players on PW who have a deep understanding of the various keyboards; before anyone spends this much on a keyboard they need to try it for themselves and compare it to others in the running. Also, I used to work in publishing where we reviewed keyboards; I don't like to spend other people's money unless I feel comfortable that I know what I'm talking about.

By the way, I'm a she, not a he.
Posted By: EssBrace

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/26/18 08:12 AM

Originally Posted by QuinGold
EssBrace:

As for action: I did not say that action was not the single most important factor for me. Where did I say that?

By the way, I'm a she, not a he.


My apologies for making gender assumptions.

You didn't say anything about the action. That omission was what implied to me it wasn't much of a consideration. The action on Novus and AvantGrand is the single most significant thing about these products and frankly is the only reason to buy one. Your lack of comment was odd therefore.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/26/18 08:20 AM

QuinGold,

Originally Posted by QuinGold
Thanks James, I will check out the booth again tomorrow and explore Pianist mode. I have the whole weekend here.


Wow, I hope your ears will hold-up okay! wink

Originally Posted by QuinGold
Note that there is nothing on the Novus to say "the new/good stuff is under the Pianist button...".


Ah, that's a good point. The NV10 (along with the new CA98/CA78, which share the same sound hardware) automatically starts up Pianist mode (unless set other wise by the user), so I expect we assumed that everyone would naturally play this most frequently.
I agree, it would be useful to have a small PoP explaining the differences between the Pianist and Sound modes - I was actually working on something similar recently.

Originally Posted by QuinGold
I wish you were here - or someone like you! The sales reps seem to be just sales reps. No one is playing the pianos except the customers, from what I can tell. It would have been nice if there was a Kawai demo artist at the Novus to walk through the features. (The reason I bought the DGX-660 two years ago is that I could learn all about it from the Yamaha demo artist who was sitting there all day every day playing and answering questions and demo'ing to anyone who asked.)


I don't have a great deal of involvement in the organisation of Kawai's NAMM exhibition area, but I will pass on your feedback to my colleagues at Kawai America. I believe some Kawai artists are schedule to play throughout the day, but perhaps this is not clearly advertised, or the frequency of performance sessions could be increased.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: Bambers

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/26/18 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
FWIW the holiday sale price of an N3X last year was $16k I believe.


Quite possibly, but I was trying to keep like with like here and stick to MRSP, it's rather odd that in the RoW this is very much pitched as between an N1 and N2 in the market (though N2s certainly aren't going quite as cheap in europe as some of the $8.5k prices mentioned here) yet in the US seems to be almost N3X in positioning.


Originally Posted by Pete14
I believe the CS11 sells for about $5,500.


Hmm, kawaius site has the MRSP at $8,499..
Posted By: winnyec

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/26/18 12:56 PM

So using the same ratio, $20k scales down to ~$13k, which makes the previously reported street price of ~$12k quite realistic.
Posted By: Pologuy

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/26/18 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by EssBrace
All very odd.

No one's going to pay that price. Kawai USA will either have to revise that price and be more sensible or they will sell zero units. So now it's up to them.

QuinGold obviously is not using the brand new sound engine on Novus but is instead using the older Hi-XL sounds - so this was a big missed opportunity for him. Yes, they will be a bit sterile sounding through headphones on sound mode but certainly less so than AvantGrand. AvantGrand only comes into its own through onboard speakers.

Action seems to be of little importance to him. Frankly, I do have to question why he's looking for a high-end hybrid if action is not the single most important factor in his purchase selection. Once you remove the desire/need for the best possible action a whole world of choice opens up (all at far lower prices).

But the good thing that has come out of this, and something for which we can all be very grateful, is that the price has finally pushed pologuy out of the market for the NV10. So that means he can move on and buy a Yamaha and stop the unrelenting whinging about the Kawai.


LMAO - the ridiculous price (as everyone here has acknowledged) has pushed virtually everyone out of the market for the NV10.

I suggest you quit taking your constant little, and sometimes not little, personal snipes at people whom you "disagree" with, or don't like what they are saying - that is not what this forum is for.

If you have a problem with a product - fine - express it like everyone else.

However your constant personal insults and snipes regarding other members of this forum is both uncalled for and violate the forum's rules.





Posted By: PianoGuyStuart

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/26/18 04:55 PM

$20K is silly money for this.

For that you would be better off getting a normal acoustic and fitting a silent system.

I doubt it will actually sell for that. At the £8,200 Bonners price they had it listed for in the UK, I think it is actually still too expensive, but would shift enough to make it worthwhile.

The CS11 / CA98 actually feels really nice to me for around £3,200. So it's already an extra £5000 basically for the new action.

Still, who knows, perhaps someone at Kawai has been sipping on their own Kool Aid and believes it will shift at $20k?

The market will ultimately decide anyway.

Though given Yamahas meak announcements at NAMM 2018, you have to consider it an opportunity lost for Kawai to shift the market around to them.
Posted By: PianoZac

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/26/18 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by Pologuy
Originally Posted by EssBrace
All very odd.

No one's going to pay that price. Kawai USA will either have to revise that price and be more sensible or they will sell zero units. So now it's up to them.

QuinGold obviously is not using the brand new sound engine on Novus but is instead using the older Hi-XL sounds - so this was a big missed opportunity for him. Yes, they will be a bit sterile sounding through headphones on sound mode but certainly less so than AvantGrand. AvantGrand only comes into its own through onboard speakers.

Action seems to be of little importance to him. Frankly, I do have to question why he's looking for a high-end hybrid if action is not the single most important factor in his purchase selection. Once you remove the desire/need for the best possible action a whole world of choice opens up (all at far lower prices).

But the good thing that has come out of this, and something for which we can all be very grateful, is that the price has finally pushed pologuy out of the market for the NV10. So that means he can move on and buy a Yamaha and stop the unrelenting whinging about the Kawai.


LMAO - the ridiculous price (as everyone here has acknowledged) has pushed virtually everyone out of the market for the NV10.

I suggest you quit taking your constant little, and sometimes not little, personal snipes at people whom you "disagree" with, or don't like what they are saying - that is not what this forum is for.

If you have a problem with a product - fine - express it like everyone else.

However your constant personal insults and snipes regarding other members of this forum is both uncalled for and violate the forum's rules.






I’m not sure where you’re coming from. EssBrace is not condescending and certainly does not violate the rules. He may be direct from some one else’s perspective by that would be it. EssBrace been a valuable forum member for years.

To be honest, since I’ve been back on the forum, I feel the tone of some of your posts to be at the least provocative in regards to the Novus NV10.

I think at the end of the day, we need to keep this all in context. We’re digial and acoustic piano enthusiasts who discuss pianos. This isn’t anything to take personal.
Posted By: EssBrace

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/26/18 09:40 PM

Originally Posted by PianoZac
Originally Posted by Pologuy
LMAO - the ridiculous price (as everyone here has acknowledged) has pushed virtually everyone out of the market for the NV10.

I suggest you quit taking your constant little, and sometimes not little, personal snipes at people whom you "disagree" with, or don't like what they are saying - that is not what this forum is for.

If you have a problem with a product - fine - express it like everyone else.

However your constant personal insults and snipes regarding other members of this forum is both uncalled for and violate the forum's rules.



I’m not sure where you’re coming from. EssBrace is not condescending and certainly does not violate the rules. He may be direct from some one else’s perspective by that would be it. EssBrace been a valuable forum member for years.

To be honest, since I’ve been back on the forum, I feel the tone of some of your posts to be at the least provocative in regards to the Novus NV10.

I think at the end of the day, we need to keep this all in context. We’re digial and acoustic piano enthusiasts who discuss pianos. This isn’t anything to take personal.


Thanks Zac. I know I can sometimes be spiky and, well, yes...direct. I'll take direct anyway! As a result of pologuy's complaint I have been formally warned by the moderators. If I suddenly disappear I'm sure you will understand why!....
Posted By: maurus

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/26/18 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by EssBrace
If I suddenly disappear ....

Don't! wink
Posted By: computerpro3

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/26/18 10:10 PM

Kawai James,

Please pass on to management that while I am quite literally the perfect target demo for this unit (classical piano degree, serious amateur, business owner who can comfortably afford the list price, etc), it is insulting to have a 20k price for this unit and I'm out on principle alone.

As many have stated, I can get a comparable Yamaha for 1/2 the cost or an actual Kawai acoustic plus silent system for the same price.

Posted By: QuinGold

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/26/18 11:05 PM

Hi Kawai James: I stopped by the Kawai booth again and hit Pianist mode.

I had explored Pianist mode yesterday: this is where I'd found what seemed like "variations" on the main sound #1. The variations were nice enough, ranging from Classic to Romantic to Jazz etc. I particularly liked the Vintage flavor; Boogie had a great bass too. For those who know and like the Kawai sounds, they will no doubt like these too.

The Kawai keys themselves [edit; not "keyboard" as a whole] seem a little more "boxy" or "angular" to me compared to the N3X, although it's still way better than most anything else I've found here (with the exception of the N3X which I still prefer).

And if you just compare the NV10 to an N3X just in terms of looks (like you would a car's body ignoring the engine or driveability), the N3X wins hand down: The NX3's mahogany colored soundboard is beautiful, the top speakers themselves look very posh, and it includes a lid you can prop up for that baby grand look. The Novus speakers on top look less expensive in comparison, although I did like the woofer's position (it's built into the foot pedal stand).

But the kicker is if you did want to place the Novus in the middle of a room. From the front, it looks quite lovely, but it is quite "plain" from the back with a flat panel with visible screws all around. You can see that at time 2:11 in their YouTube video: http://www.kawai-global.com/news/kawai-announces-novus-nv10-hybrid-digital-piano/

Posted By: Bambers

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/26/18 11:27 PM

The NV10 isn't really a competitor to the N3X though, it's aimed (in every other part of the world anyway!) somewhere between the N1 and N2 and priced accordingly, both of which have the same boxy style with less finished back.

The N3X goes for close to twice the price of the NV10 in the UK and certainly has far more put into both the looks and the speaker system.
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/26/18 11:47 PM

Thank you QuinGold, for reporting back so diligently!

I'm happy that all those issues that you describe as "problematic" in your view, are matters of taste (sound, look) or circumstances (placement options regarding plain backside), which are in fact non-issues for me, and that you've not reported any more serious problems.

I do like the SK-EX sound, so I have that going for me.
I don't like the faux grand body look of the N3X (to me that's akin to putting a big ass spoiler on a Jetta and pretending it's now a race car). I like the unpretentious design of the Novus, that just looks like the front part of a grand, with the back part simply "cut off", seeing that the back part is unnecessary if you don't have a harp with strings. (Although I must admit that this impression of mine is from pictures only, so far - I'll see how well that holds up once I see it in real life.)
And I have no problem with the plain backside, as I have no space to place it in the middle of the room anyway.
And luckily, the price around here is only half of that of the N3X, so there's not really a competition between the two on that front (my guess is that we'll be seeing an NV20 or NV30 at some time, which will have the faux grand look and will have a similar price as the N3X - even hereabouts).

Now I only have to play it to see if it's really that much of a step up to justify replacing my CA97 with it...

EDIT: Oh, and Happy Birthday! thumb
Posted By: QuinGold

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/27/18 12:32 AM

Thanks JoBert, I'm glad it works for you! I agree that it feels more like a competitor to the N2(X), so not sure what Kawai was thinking with the list price out the gate.
Posted By: mabraman

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/27/18 12:47 AM

8777€ , just below the CVP709 GP https://www.thomann.de/es/pianos_digitales_2.html?oa=prd
Actual price.
Posted By: computerpro3

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/27/18 01:54 AM

Screw Kawai USA, I am just going to buy in Germany and ship it over with my company Fedex freight account. Will save me $7k after shipping.

Posted By: Osho

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/27/18 03:27 AM

Originally Posted by computerpro3
Screw Kawai USA, I am just going to buy in Germany and ship it over with my company Fedex freight account. Will save me $7k after shipping.

Can you get me one too please? j/k...

Seriously though, the fact that there is no USA warranty will stop me from doing this. Especially for a 'first generation' product for a company like Novus is for Kawai.

Osho
Posted By: computerpro3

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/27/18 04:37 AM

No worries, you can ship a second replacement unit from Germany and still come in at less than the Us MSRP.
Posted By: mcoll

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/27/18 07:28 AM

In all seriousness, the street price won't be anything close to the MSRP, but even so and with all the marketing logic?! behind it, the MSRP is still pretty absurd and offending. See rival product pricing and street prices, see acoustic silent systems, see prices in Europe etc.
Although I'm just a silent admirer and in no danger of getting a hybrid soon, I just had to say something about this ridiculous choice.. smile
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/27/18 08:00 AM

Originally Posted by mabraman
8777€ , just below the CVP709 GP https://www.thomann.de/es/pianos_digitales_2.html?oa=prd
Actual price.

Interesting. That's the Thomann price for Spain (tax included). The price for Germany is still 8999€. That's even though Spain's tax is even higher (21%) than Germany's (19%).
So even in Europe, different markets seem to get different prices. Although not as big a difference as to the US.
Posted By: Hendrik42

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/27/18 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by JoBert
Now I only have to play it to see if it's really that much of a step up to justify replacing my CA97 with it...

You will have to do that of course, but the real pedaling mechanic alone should give you plenty to think about :-) I had the pleasure to see and touch the Novus at Musikmesse last year and I think it is amazing. Unfortunately, I am not good enough a pianist to judge the pedaling-to-sound-engine-realism.

The other thing is that the pianist mode is a significant step up in resonance modeling from HI-XL and I totally love it. In my opinion, Roland had the edge before, but now with pianist mode I like Kawai better.

Whether that is enough to justify the Novus for you over the CA97 is your call. But I am really looking forward to the CS12 (no room for a Novus) and will think seriously about upgrading.
Posted By: toddy

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/27/18 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by mabraman
8777€ , just below the CVP709 GP https://www.thomann.de/es/pianos_digitales_2.html?oa=prd
Actual price.

Interesting. That's the Thomann price for Spain (tax included). The price for Germany is still 8999€. That's even though Spain's tax is even higher (21%) than Germany's (19%).
So even in Europe, different markets seem to get different prices. Although not as big a difference as to the US.


That's very curious. It's €8999 just across the border from Spain, here in Portugal. VAT 23%. But why is it less in Spain? In Greece it's €9090 (24% VAT).
Posted By: karvala

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/27/18 10:56 AM

Small price variations reflect local costs (office and distribution, taxes), local market conditions (competition, special offers etc.) and the cost of living. There are small price variations in most goods across countries within the EU. None of that comes close to explaining the huge price variation with the US, though, which is just blatant price gouging and which the market won't accept.
Posted By: ando

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/27/18 01:12 PM

I'm amused to see the US reaction to this price - now you're getting a taste of what we go through in Australia! Our prices are just appalling on these kinds of things. I haven't seen a price for the NV10 yet, but here's a Yamaha N3X price for you:

http://www.vivacemusic.com.au/p/8173/yamaha-n3x-hybrid-piano

That's $24,500USD today. That's after a recent rally in the AUD. A month or two ago it was closer to $27,000USD.
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/27/18 01:22 PM

Jeez! Are you digging gold in your backyards there?
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/27/18 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by ando
I'm amused to see the US reaction to this price - now you're getting a taste of what we go through in Australia! Our prices are just appalling on these kinds of things. I haven't seen a price for the NV10 yet, but here's a Yamaha N3X price for you:

http://www.vivacemusic.com.au/p/8173/yamaha-n3x-hybrid-piano

That's $24,500USD today. That's after a recent rally in the AUD. A month or two ago it was closer to $27,000USD.

Now I understand! The Kawai rep at NAMM was quoting the Australian price, in AUD! grin
Posted By: ando

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/27/18 01:59 PM

Gene and Jo, your jokes are totally justified - we are the rip-off kings! I think Antarctica gets better prices than we do.
Posted By: karvala

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/27/18 04:13 PM

The Australian example highlights the limitations of comparisons, however. The price is higher in terms of currency exchange, but in nominal both the cost of living and average earnings are much higher in Australia, so this doesn't really reflect purchasing power parity. As a proportion of average income, the price in Australian is broadly comparable with the US.
Posted By: Tom Fort

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/27/18 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by mabraman
8777€ , just below the CVP709 GP https://www.thomann.de/es/pianos_digitales_2.html?oa=prd
Actual price.

Interesting. That's the Thomann price for Spain (tax included). The price for Germany is still 8999€. That's even though Spain's tax is even higher (21%) than Germany's (19%).
So even in Europe, different markets seem to get different prices. Although not as big a difference as to the US.



Kawai seems to have the biggest price difference between European and US prices. I was considering a VPC-1 at one point, but just can't get over the higher price in the US: $1849 (Sweetwater) before taxes compared to $1,355 (Thomann) before taxes.

I assume that Kawai US sets its own prices. Kawai HQ ought to step in and suggest they make the differences no more than 10%. Everyone compares prices on the Internet, and even if you can't ship a heavy item like a VPC-1 or a Novus to the US easily, the customer sees the difference and is turned away.
Posted By: madshi

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/27/18 05:51 PM

And in many many other cases EU prices are significantly higher than US prices (e.g. Yamaha N2/N3). There's really not much that can be done about it, other than voting with your wallet.
Posted By: toddy

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/27/18 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by karvala
The Australian example highlights the limitations of comparisons, however. The price is higher in terms of currency exchange, but in nominal both the cost of living and average earnings are much higher in Australia, so this doesn't really reflect purchasing power parity. As a proportion of average income, the price in Australian is broadly comparable with the US.


If purchasing power parity were really to hold over even a common trading area such as the EU, then a digital piano costing €6,000 in Luxemburg or Denmark, say, should cost perhaps less than €2000 in Croatia or Romania and about €3000 in Portugal. This does not happen.
Posted By: ando

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/27/18 06:33 PM

Originally Posted by karvala
The Australian example highlights the limitations of comparisons, however. The price is higher in terms of currency exchange, but in nominal both the cost of living and average earnings are much higher in Australia, so this doesn't really reflect purchasing power parity. As a proportion of average income, the price in Australian is broadly comparable with the US.

Broadly speaking, yes, Karvala. But a lot of items attract a much higher premium than they should. There are a few forces that go into a product like the Yamaha N3X being as high as it is, but I won't try to break every part of it down.

A significant part of it is the relatively low volume of the Australian market, part of it is the geographical isolation of the continent making competition from other suppliers less likely. You wouldn't buy this thing online internationally and ship it because the freight would be insane. Contrast this with smaller keyboards where the prices are much closer to US prices because they know people have ways around being gouged locally. Anything that can be bought online and freighted by the individual for not too much, tends to sell at a reasonable price in Australia. Anything that is hard to ship individually gets a ridiculous price - far more than the actual cost of shipping. But basically people get gouged on high ticket items here because they can. Retail is very opportunistic.

Income stats are very misleading in my country - if you look at the average figures you can easily conclude that we are living a very high standard of living across the whole population, but the reality is not like that. Some professions are very overpaid, some are very underpaid. A lot of people who aren't in the "right" professions are priced out of many things. A lot of people will never own their own home because prices are too high for a lot of professions, and too low in others. There a lot of people who own 40-50 investment properties, and many more who will never own anything - and so rents are climbing to take advantage of this situation. It's not an even playing field here at all. A lot of people who would love to own a N3X will simply never be able to have one. That's true everywhere of course, but even moreso in countries like mine where pay rates are so unequal across different professions. If I lived in the US or Europe, I could do my exact job and with some sacrifice, eventually buy an N3X, in Australia it's way too much for what I earn to even consider it.
Posted By: winnyec

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/27/18 09:24 PM

Here is another promo video; this time from NAMM.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iR8f-N-vcU
Posted By: ngk

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/27/18 09:27 PM

Played it for a while at Namm.

My short take is: nice try Kawai, but the sound (speakers) is pretty thin and the playing experience was not overwhelming. Granted, this was in a big, open room, but I didn’t get much love in the player position. The Onkyo tie in was heavily hyped before, but I didn’t get the feeling it was being touted at Namm.
Headphones sounded very good, not incredible.

The action is nice, fairly heavy and distinctively Kawai. Not as crisp as Yamaha AG.
Sounds were good and pretty tweakable. Nice UI touch panel for more adjustments than Yamaha.
but for $20k.......! Not in my future. If it were $10k or less, that’s more like it to compete with AG N2.

As was mentioned by QuinGold, if I were in the market for the best sounding( and most flexible) DP, or hybrid, I’d look seriously into a controller/PC combo. Or buy a cheaper furniture DP with a good action (Celviano?) and concentrate on the sounds and amplification. It might involve a little technical knowledge, but not much.

If you want a piece of furniture, don’t bother reading on. If you want flexibility and the silent features........

For instance, I have a MP7 and a Roland RD2000. Both very nice actions, Roland being more solid. The MP11 or VPC is a step above. But I also have 2 CAsio PX-150’s that are very respectable for the touch and also super light, with a wood texture on the plastic key tops too. I take the Casio in my RV and to little rehearsals with my laptop. Any decent PC, Mac or even a recent iPad could host the Ravenscroft sampled piano that BLOWS away the sound of either the Yamaha or Kawai furniture pianos. It has so much control over touch, resonance, key noise, pedal noises, reverbs, etc. 4 different mic stereo positions to mix as you like. The iPad version is scaled down as far as finer control.......but still very impressive for $40.

I’d put some money into a pair of small, active / powered monitors like Presonus or JBLs and an inexpensive subwoofer. I have Genelec 1031a’s. I’d put them pointing right into my face at 3-4 ft. and get an immersed, clear sound that is super-inspiring. You decide if you want to be right inside the piano or in a small concert hall. Depending on the room, you could add some satellite speakers too. You’d be way under budget......way!

Another trend is a lot of people are repurposing or gutting older grand shells or square grands, and placing digital keyboards in them.
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/27/18 11:05 PM

I just saw in the video that was posted above that the NV10 at the NAMM show is customized with plexiglass so that you can see the piano action from the outside.

Did you see that?

(Probably not, as you would have to close the keyboard lid to see it, and who does that when he wants to playtest a piano? smile)
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/27/18 11:55 PM

Don't get hung up on the price.

The information here seems to be conjecture built upon rumor ... and all that for a piano that is now merely the announcement of an impending future reality!

There is no "price" on the unit yet ... not until you see one at a retailer and make an offer. Only then will it have a price.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/28/18 12:00 AM

Originally Posted by JoBert

(Probably not, as you would have to close the keyboard lid to see it, and who does that when he wants to playtest a piano? smile)


Yeah in the video he has someone hold the fallboard half-way closed as he plays so you can see the hammer mechanism underneath.
Posted By: QuinGold

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/28/18 02:36 AM

Well, trade shows in real time can be so much fun!!

Kawai seem to be getting the message on pricing! This afternoon I spoke with the same salesperson - and now the price is "To Be Determined"!!!

I reminded him that he told me TWICE on Thursday that the list was a firm $19,900...! He was a little sheepish about that. I got the distinct impression that Kawai are reconsidering the list price. I also mentioned to another suit & tie guy that the consensus online was that $19,900 was far too expensive.

Oh, and I found another section under Sounds with Strings and lots of other instruments (this after Suit #2 didn't know if there were Strings). I complained to him that there should be a demo artist playing and demo'ing. Not once did I see anyone play except customers (although some were very good, it's not the same as an official demo artist).
Posted By: Grandman

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/28/18 02:49 AM

Well, I still prefer to try on my own as opposed to having a demo player. I will try to test tomorrow.
Posted By: Osho

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/28/18 02:51 AM

Good news Quin, thanks for the ongoing reports!

Osho
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/28/18 04:04 AM

Yeah, these developments are...entertaining, shall I say?

I've been holding my tongue (for the most part) about the price, but in case Kawai US is actually reading forums like PW, I have to agree with the general consensus here and say that they really need to consider what it would mean to attempt to price the NV10 over $5k above an AvantGrand N3X. Especially when the same NV10 is selling in all other major ROW regions it is released in (EU, Asia) for half the purported US list price.

Literally nothing about the price makes sense, rationally, competitively, and even comparably to getting an actual new Kawai acoustic grand with the same action and silent system built in.

Whether an honest mistake or a particularly brazen test of market, I hope there is some clarity and finality on the official price sooner rather than later.

And while I fully advocate testing any piano for yourself and making a decision based on your own impression, I can't help but notice that the several first hand reports thus far have been fairly lukewarm on it... And I mention this only because it might have painted a contrasting picture if people came away raving about it and claiming that it might actually be worth the $20k price. I'll hold out hope that it may actually be, but so far this isn't exactly the reception I was hoping to see for the Novus.
Posted By: QuinGold

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/28/18 04:36 AM

Originally Posted by Grandman
Well, I still prefer to try on my own as opposed to having a demo player. I will try to test tomorrow.


I didn't mean "instead" of trying it yourself. There are two units in the booth. Most of the time both of them were free to play.

However, it is nice to see a proper demo even if it's prepared. It took me a few visits to discover all the options by poking around. Sales people want to write orders, not play the instrument and walk through features.

I'll add too that while NAMM is normally a show for dealers to order units, this weekend (for the first time) they were allowing in some artists and educators. And whenever Yamaha has a new keyboard to push, there is a guy doing round the clock demos and answering questions (this year he was pushing the Genos workstation). Kawai could use some evangelists imo. JoBert could do it next year... smile
Posted By: terminaldegree

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/28/18 05:36 AM

Originally Posted by JoBert
I just saw in the video that was posted above that the NV10 at the NAMM show is customized with plexiglass so that you can see the piano action from the outside.

Did you see that?

(Probably not, as you would have to close the keyboard lid to see it, and who does that when he wants to playtest a piano? smile)


There were two NV10’s on display. One (nearer the back of the booth) had the plexiglass panel, while the other (which was displayed more prominently) was nearer the main entrance. I have a couple photos taken through the plexi that I may post into the main piano forum’s NAMM thread later.

Kawai had a very large booth (room) this year, along with Samick were the largest acoustic piano spaces at the show.
Posted By: QuinGold

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/28/18 07:56 AM

Originally Posted by Osho
Good news Quin, thanks for the ongoing reports!

Osho


You're welcome. The video posted on page 23 from NAMM features Sean O'Shea, the rep. I spoke with. He's seems to be the most knowledgeable about the Novus if anyone is at NAMM Sunday. Nice guy. Don't beat him up too bad... smile

I spent most of the day installing the Ravenscroft virtual piano on my laptop so I can play it with my dinky travel keyboard. Haven't had time to do any tweaking - I spent so long installing it that I just wanted to play piano for a bit (and if you have Mac Sierra or High Sierra, note that there is a bug in the installer when you go to install the library - fix is in their support docs).
BTW, Ravenscroft 275 is on SALE - half price - $99 for the next 10 days: https://audioplugin.deals/
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/28/18 08:31 AM

LOL! Very funny about the price development!

Elsewhere, we would now see lots of "We did it, Reddit!" posts. smile

So ... We did it Pianoworld?!

Originally Posted by QuinGold
Kawai could use some evangelists imo. JoBert could do it next year... smile

Argh! Am I giving the impression of a Kawai evangelist around here? blush For the record: I'm not a fanboi for a certain manufacturer (see the diverse piano history in my signature). If I'm mainly posting in Kawai related threads, then only because my only experience right now is with Kawai (as this is what I own right now), and I'm not, like others around here, constantly haunting piano shops to try out new models, and I'd rather refrain from giving advice on models I have no experience with (also in contrast to others around here wink - [I don't mean you, Quin]).
Posted By: karvala

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/28/18 12:06 PM


Originally Posted by QuinGold
Well, trade shows in real time can be so much fun!!

Kawai seem to be getting the message on pricing! This afternoon I spoke with the same salesperson - and now the price is "To Be Determined"!!!

I reminded him that he told me TWICE on Thursday that the list was a firm $19,900...! He was a little sheepish about that. I got the distinct impression that Kawai are reconsidering the list price. I also mentioned to another suit & tie guy that the consensus online was that $19,900 was far too expensive.


LMAO. Anyone think that perhaps he had a call from Head Office yesterday? ;-)
Posted By: bSharp(C)yclist

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/28/18 02:47 PM

I can't see it being more than 12K, even that might be too high. Given that you can get an N2 for 8K now (at least here in US), how much more is one willing to pay for the NV10? The NV10 certainly has newer technology, not sure how much it's worth. Perhaps Yamaha decided not to say anything at NAMM, hoping that Kawai comes out of the gate too high, and pushes everyone to buy up all the old N2s. Then they will announce the N2X smile
Posted By: Frédéric L

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/28/18 02:54 PM

In France, the N2 is at 12,000€ (20% VAT included). $15,000. The difference is huge !
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/28/18 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by Frédéric L
In France, the N2 is at 12,000€ (20% VAT included). $15,000. The difference is huge !


Is the nv10 sold in France? I recall some people saying the DE/UK price is around the 9000eur point.
Posted By: Frédéric L

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/28/18 02:59 PM

Yes, the NV10 is sold at 9,000€ - see https://www.gear4music.fr/fr/Clavie...no-Numerique-Hybride-Ebene-Brillant/1XGC

It is written “available on order”, but the green flag on the corner of the photo means pre-order.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/28/18 03:47 PM

Pre-orders are tricky as at least in the US they can always be cancelled. I'm just trying to see if a direct comparison strategy to the n2 actually makes sense. It sounds to me like in the EU, Kawai is agnostic to n2 pricing, it even undercutting aggressively. And while Kawai US sets the price statewide, it seems odd that they would price the nv10 at/higher than the AG N3X.

One factor could be that production volumes for the NV10 are so low (I recall reading 800 units annually for the first year) that even priced high I'm sure Kawai can sell them out in the could of a year, all it takes is a couple dozens sales per *country*. 50 could probably be presold to China sight unseen smile
Posted By: CyberGene

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/28/18 04:23 PM

For all Europe look Thomann. They dictate the prices. My Kawai dealer complained it’s difficult to compete with their prices and he should sell almost at loss frown Can’t say which model I prefer, the capitalistic one or the social one wink We’ve got some pretty disastrous background in Bulgaria with leftist movements so I wouldn’t support such ideologies but I can’t help but feel sorry for small resellers frown
Posted By: winnyec

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/28/18 04:28 PM

It might be that Kawai factors in too many levels of distribution and their corresponding profits. But in the end, you actually see a very different ‘street price‘, and it seems to be the case with Kawai generally: the MSRP for the CS11 is $8.5k. At least in comparison you cannot expect it to be the same order of magnitude for the NV10. But then CS11s sell for $5.5k… and we have a thread already that NV10 does for $12k: the same ratio scales $20k to $13k. This does not sound that unrealistic given that Thomann quotes €3.8k for the CS11: by the same margin €9k scales up also to $13k. So I'd say everything seems to point towards this order of magnitude of ‘street price‘.

This extra in price seems to me to be one more distributor in the distribution chain. Maybe they are their own distributor in Europe, while you have to pay the profit of one more company in the US. And maybe it is just the other way around with Yamaha, hence the higher European prices for them.

If this is the reason or simply marketing, Kawai MSRPs seem to be a myth in the US anyway. Therefore I would argue that you wrongly assume (if you do) that this sudden almost change in the MSRP would make anything different for your street price. But you certainly will never know, since Mac has the point that one should wait for (if the previous thread is not one already) the actual quotes (and you will never know the ‘what would have been’s.)
Posted By: QuinGold

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/28/18 05:09 PM

FWIW, Sean told me he considered the Novus to fall between the N2 and N3. But he doesn't get to set the price.
(Still chuckling at him telling me yesterday that he "was curious what the price would be"...I guess he got to talk to a lot of folk over three days!)

If I have time I do want to check something today. I'm only 5'4" so I sit quite low compared to a tall guy. I remember "feeling" that the top of the Novus was taller than I wanted to be, so that the speakers were more likely to serenade my ceiling rather than my ears. I didn't get that feeling sitting at the N3X - I felt I could see the speakers easily, and if my eyes can see them then my ears can hear them. I wonder how tall the N2 is in comparison? Again, not an issue if you are taller then me.

JoBert - I didn't mean to imply you were a fanboi! Just that if you do buy a Novus you might like a few days in Southern California in January! Highs in the 80s today! (That's one thing I hated about Frankfurt Musikmesse - it's freezing in Feb!) Everyone loves coming to NAMM - lots of parties, usually great weather (not last year), and then you can vacation afterwards.

Kawai James: I read the information at the top of the Novus and nowhere does it say "88 sounds" (Sean mentioned it in the Kawai video above). I now dislike the swipe display more - it's too slow to get to lower levels and confusing to navigate left/right/up/down to find a sound you found earlier (took me a few goes to even find them). It suffers from what we call the "Kai effect" (in the 1990s, Kai Krause built amazing Photoshop plugins - until his interface got so "clever" to navigate that people stopped using them). Sometimes simpler is just better. I LOVE the swiping action (rather than button clicking or twirling knobs), but I want to see about 5-8 Sounds at a time scroll by on a single long list (whatever size makes it easy to "select" a line). Even when I'm in Pianist mode, I hate having to swipe/swipe/swipe to change sounds. I should be able to see the list in a single pane and click the sound I like. BTW, I did really like the Romantic one too. Just can't get past the Classic - my ears don't like it. YMMV.
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/28/18 05:46 PM

Originally Posted by QuinGold
If I have time I do want to check something today. I'm only 5'4" so I sit quite low compared to a tall guy. I remember "feeling" that the top of the Novus was taller than I wanted to be, so that the speakers were more likely to serenade my ceiling rather than my ears. I didn't get that feeling sitting at the N3X - I felt I could see the speakers easily, and if my eyes can see them then my ears can hear them. I wonder how tall the N2 is in comparison?

I checked the specs:

N3X: 101.4cm (lid down, the speakers are lower than that though, as they are a bit recessed)
N2: 100.9cm
N1: 99.5cm
Novus: 92.5cm

So, at least according to the specs, the Novus is actually the lowest of the four, by a good margin compared to the N3X (almost 9cm, more than 3.5 inch).

Maybe the Kawai bench was lower? grin
Posted By: Cosi

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/28/18 06:44 PM

Originally Posted by Frédéric L


Do you live in Paris ? Maybe you can try the Novus at Nebout, they have it now, although it says out of stock already, they surely have a show model.

Anyway, my city piano shop will not sell it and I'm very reluctant to buy it online...
Posted By: Frédéric L

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/28/18 07:23 PM

I live near Paris... but I prefer a nearest piano shop from home (Hanlet), and unfortunately, they have no Kawai (among DP).

I will probably try again Hamm-Nebout.
Posted By: Francis Martin

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/28/18 08:37 PM

Hello to all members, I hope you all have a nice Sunday! This is my first post.

I have been following interesting threads on Pianoworld for about 15 years. Since the preview of the NOVUS NV10 at the beginning of April last year, I have read pretty much every post about the corresponding threads here.
At least now after the US-debut of the new NV10 at the NAMM Show 2018 and its new “nice-price” for the US-market, which can only be described as a "NAMM 2018 KAWAI PR disaster", I finally decided to join this forum.

Briefly some facts about myself: I am a professional solo pianist. In the 1990s I was in charge of sales at a piano specialist store in Frankfurt / Main (KAWAI, Steinway & Sons, SCHIMMEL, Steingraeber & Söhne and others). At that time, I was also the owner and manager of my own YAMAHA music school, which was a bad decision and experience. I can definitely say that I had invariably bad experiences with YAMAHA regarding "music school".

First of all @ QuinGold:
Afterward, congratulations on your birthday. With great interest, I have been tracking your reports on the “US-nice-price” of the NOVUS NV10 over the last few days.

You did a fantastic job at NAMM 2018! For that you deserve the greatest respect!

Most of all, because you are sharing your research with a worldwide community and motivating other members and non-members - as in my case - to "activate" and take action.
Specifically: After reading your post on Thursday, quote: [...] "List 19,900 or 950? Quoting salesman Sean: Some are "on the water" now but only going to a few dealers. Limited supply for 6-9 months. "[...] end quote, was for me, that I'll be in this case directly to KAWAI America Corp. in Rancho Dominguez/CA, because such a "pricing" is simply outrageous and audacious, cause it is hardly to assume/accept that the purchase price of the NOVUS NV10 instruments (bought) from KAWAI America Corp. as a subsidiary(!) of KAWAI Musical Instruments Manufacturing Co., Ltd. in Hamamatsu (Japan) as the manufacturer surely should not be much higher than the purchase price that KAWAI Europa GmbH in Krefeld (Germany) has to pay to its same parent-company.
If necessary, this will be done directly by the respective subsidiaries with PT. Kawai Indonesia in Karawang (Indonesia), since the instruments are manufactured (actually assembled) there. It may therefore be possible to circumvent the purchase of instruments intended for overseas export by the parent-company in Japan.
So it's all about the profit that either KAWAI America Corp. or his dealer will realise. For my opinion the US-customers however become violently overreached / become “pulled over the table”. I think that is very dishonorable. More about this in another post.

On Friday at 6:40 pm CET (UTC + 1), i.g. 9:40 am PST (UTC-8) I phoned KAWAI America Corp.. The phone call lasted about 20 minutes and ended a few minutes before the reopening of the NAMM show at 7:00 am PST. I then wrote to Mr. Tom Love (KAWAI America Corp.) following email at 8:40 pm CET, i.g. 11:40 am PST. Further information on the content of the phone call in a later post.


Von: Frank […] [mailto: […]]
Gesendet: Freitag, 26. Januar 2018 20:40
An: 'tlove@kawaius.com'
Betreff: KAWAI booth @ NAMM 2018: NOVUS NV10

Dear Mr. Love,

my name is Frank and I am writing to you from Germany. About an hour ago, I talked by phone with a colleague and then with another colleague from you at KAWAI US, who was kind enough to give me your email address.

I come to you here on an important matter, perhaps you have already learned about this:

At your KAWAI booth at the current NAMM 2018, a KAWAI representative told a visitor that the price of the new hybrid digital piano NOVUS NV10 would be $ 19.900,00. The visitor is a member of the important internet forum Pianoworld and writes there posts under the pseudonym "QuinGold". In another post she wrote that this named price is now confirmed.

Another member of this forum called "Pologuy" posted that he had phoned the senior management of KAWAI US, which had confirmed the price.

Since then, a kind of Shitstorm is in the corresponding threads at Pianoworld.

Some are now very angry at KAWAI US and are now finally oriented to the YAMAHA AvantGrand N2 or even the N3X. Others are considering importing the instrument more cheaply from abroad.

Forum members complain that KAWAI US deals with its customers in this way. It was "a shame." They feel "betrayed" and "milked". Especially because here in Germany the price for the NOVUS NV10 is EURO 9.560,00 including 19% VAT (EURO 8.058,82 without VAT), that is equivalent to US $ 10.041,29 without VAT (US $ / € 1,2460).

If the price of the NOVUS NV10 in the US is not $ 19.900,00, I think it would be necessary to contact your KAWAI booth at NAMM to ensure that such pricing is not communicated. Because such a false price certainly sabotages the efforts of KAWAI in competition with YAMAHA and plays YAMAHA in the hands. If true, this price of course competes with the YAMAHA Model AvantGrand N3X. This should be very convenient for YAMAHA. Nobody would buy the NOVUS NV10 for such a price.

Furthermore, when visiting your KAWAI booth, customers are complaining that no official demonstrations of the instrument are offered / performed.

In my opinion, if the new NOVUS NV10 is not yet available, it would be a better practice to communicate when a delivery of the instrument to end customers will begin, e.g. in 6-9 months, and that in the specialty stores some instruments are already ready for testing, but these are currently unsaleable.

Finally, I ask for your official list price for the NOVUS NV10 for your US market to be cleared as quickly as possible on the corresponding forums / threads.

Here are two links to the appropriate threads:

Thread: "Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Music Fair 2017"

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...v10-hybrid-piano-at-musicmesse-2017.html

Host: Kawai James (KAWAI, Hamamatsu)

Thread: "Hybrid piano shoppers - two bad news today - what next?"

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...two-bad-news-today-what-next.html#UNREAD

Host: Pianoworld member "Osho".



With thanks in advance and best regards

Frank […], Germany
Email: […]


@ Mr. Tom Love, KAWAI America Corp .: Since you are also named as an editor on your web page, I expect your comment on my letter after the NAMM Show 2018. Of course, I will publish it then here in the forum completely. And of course I'm completely free to do just that. Thank you for your comprehension.

@Pologuy: You’ve posted that you phoned the senior management of KAWAI America Corp., which had confirmed the price. Could you please tell us something about this phone call and of course tell us the name with whom you phoned? This would be helpful in any case. Thank you in advance and thanks for your important activities in this case.


I would like to encourage each member to send a corresponding email to Mr. Tom Love with your own “feelings” about this issue. After the NAMM Show, he certainly waits for "feedback". His Email-adress: tlove@kawaius.com

A lovely Sunday to everyone.
Posted By: Osho

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/28/18 08:48 PM

Thank you Francis for taking the action and sharing it hear - much appreciated!

Osho
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/29/18 03:50 AM

Hello QuinGold,

Thank you once again for your feedback. I'm glad to hear that you liked the 'Romantic' character in Pianist mode also.
Regarding the user interface, I shall pass your comments on to the software development team responsible for the CA98/CA78 and NV10.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: QuinGold

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/29/18 06:24 AM

Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by QuinGold
If I have time I do want to check something today. I'm only 5'4" so I sit quite low compared to a tall guy. I remember "feeling" that the top of the Novus was taller than I wanted to be, so that the speakers were more likely to serenade my ceiling rather than my ears. I didn't get that feeling sitting at the N3X - I felt I could see the speakers easily, and if my eyes can see them then my ears can hear them. I wonder how tall the N2 is in comparison?

I checked the specs:

N3X: 101.4cm (lid down, the speakers are lower than that though, as they are a bit recessed)
N2: 100.9cm
N1: 99.5cm
Novus: 92.5cm

So, at least according to the specs, the Novus is actually the lowest of the four, by a good margin compared to the N3X (almost 9cm, more than 3.5 inch).

Maybe the Kawai bench was lower? grin


JoBert: Thanks for checking the specs. It did occur to me on the way over this morning to check the bench heights (one never wants to mess with them, although I do see experienced players do it). Once I took that into account I can see that the heights are fairly similar. I think the difference is that the "sunken" speakers on the N3X make it feel like they are lower.
Speaking of which, the speaker specs would be interesting to compare as well.

I dragged my better half around this morning, since he was done with his stuff (and whatever I get is going to dominate the living room...). The show was pretty quiet this morning, as many people skip the last day.

Someone earlier mentioned the power of the speakers. We went to Kawai first and I unplugged the headphones, cranked up the volume to max, and played a few loud chords. We agreed that the volume was not very loud. This was a test I hadn't done before, as I'd mostly played on headphones or at medium volume through the speakers.

Over to Yamaha, which was SO much quieter on the last day (no band on the stage, no mariachi trumpeters etc.) I did the same test on the N3X, and we both agreed that the same chords at forte were SO much louder - there was a satisfying feeling of power through the speakers. Maybe it's because the tilted lid bounces the sound toward the player, but the sound seems to come towards my ears in a way that the Novus doesn't.

I know the N3 is supposed to have great speakers, but honestly I thought they would be overkill and I'd be quite happy with the N2. But if the N2X turns out to be more in line with the power of the Novus, then I think I'd be disappointed. Not that I play very loud all the time, but when I'm in the house on my own, I do like to crank it up (yes, it's a detached house!).

There are some things I really like about the NV10 over the N3X, in particular all those extra Sounds. But I think I can add more sounds with a laptop and virtual pianos.

In the end, buying a piano is like buying art - you have to buy the one that make your heart skip a beat. And the Novus didn't do it for me.

I wish everyone well with their Novus purchases. I've no doubt the price will find its level before long; the market is always efficient. Kudos for Francis (Frank) for following up with Kawai.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/29/18 10:46 AM

Thanks QuinGold, you've gone above and beyond to be our eyes, ears and fingers at NAMM smile best of luck with your hybrid shopping as well smile
Posted By: karvala

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/29/18 11:36 AM

Yeah, I think Kawai should replace their NAMM floor staff with QuinGold next year. grin
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/29/18 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by QuinGold
Speaking of which, the speaker specs would be interesting to compare as well.

I'm nor suprised that you found the N3X speakers+amps more powerful than those of the Novus. They definitely are. And they better should be, for an instrument that costs almost twice as much!

Well, at least outside of the US. smile

It's interesting to see (but quite unfortunate from Kawai's point of view), how the fact that Yamaha has discounted its Avant Grand series noticeably more in the US than elsewhere, combined with the very unfortunate handling of the Novus price quote by Kawai-US at the NAMM show, now has US customers comparing the NV10 to the N3X, when in reality, the NV10 should be compared to the N1 and N2, which fall more into its price class.
Here in Germany the Novus sits almost smack in the middle between the N1 and N2 (it's a bit closer to the N1 than the N2, actually), being 2690€ cheaper than the N2, which has 8 year old tech, compared to the brand new Novus. Once the N1X and N2X come out, I expect that both will be more expensive than their N1/N2 predecessors, so the N1X becoming more expensive will shift it even closer to the Novus while the N2X becoming more expensive will shift it even farther away.
So there's the competition for the Novus. The N3X, at 17000€ compared to the Novus' 9000€, is simply in a different league. Accordingly, I would expect to hear that different league too!
Posted By: QuinGold

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/29/18 06:30 PM

I understand that the Novus is not supposed to be in the same league as the N3X. I was just noting that before NAMM, I was reading the specs of the Avant Grands and thinking that the extra volume with the more powerful speakers in the N3X would be overkill - but I found that they were about where I wanted them to be. If you are in a city apartment, the Novus volume will probably be just fine - I just found it lacking. (I play my friend's baby grand and a few mellow notes can fill a large room.)

I expect there are quite a few people like me shopping right now: I would love to find something for $10K to $12K, and I thought I'd be able to consider the N2X and the Novus. But now I can't help but see what the pricing would be on the N3X. Such is life.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/29/18 07:10 PM

Originally Posted by QuinGold
I understand that the Novus is not supposed to be in the same league as the N3X. I was just noting that before NAMM, I was reading the specs of the Avant Grands and thinking that the extra volume with the more powerful speakers in the N3X would be overkill - but I found that they were about where I wanted them to be. If you are in a city apartment, the Novus volume will probably be just fine - I just found it lacking. (I play my friend's baby grand and a few mellow notes can fill a large room.)


When I tried the N3X, I had the same thought as you, that the massive speaker systems might be overkill. But in a large room, they definitely weren't. One thing shared between the N3X and a real grand is the lid - when sitting at the bench, I never get the sense that a grand is "too loud" unless it's in a severely undersized room. But the volume is many times higher to the audience. I also recall people saying that as the pianist they preferred the N2 over the N3 because the sound projects towards the player, whereas with the N3 it projects out towards the room, so it doesn't appear as loud.
Posted By: computerpro3

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/31/18 03:38 AM

Just heard from my dealer that he has one ordered but it is on backorder.

He is telling me that based on his insinuated price, he is pretty sure I can get into the 12k range.

12k is more than I was hoping to spend (hoping for 10k) but we will see what final MSRP is. Seems that Kawai is even not telling him much.
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/31/18 02:03 PM

Seems that the NV10 is selling quickly at Thomann:

Last week, their delivery date for the NV10 was Jan 31st. Yesterday it was marked as "immediately available". Today it is marked as "expected delivery Feb 28th".

That left me unsure if those delivery dates were only guesses (that have been moved back by them) so I sent them an email and they told me, that they do have the NV10 in their shop for testing, but do no longer have it in store, as all units they had are already sold out. (Of course I do not know how many units they had, so "selling quickly" could also mean that they got two units, put one into their shop and sold the other...)

frown because if I decide to order one I have to wait longer.

smile because I'll soon be able to finally test the NV10 myself.
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/31/18 02:18 PM

Didn't Kawai say they would be making about 800 units worldwide the first year? With that kind of supply constraint, I doubt any single shop could be ordering large numbers. I know Thomann is huge, but at 10k a pop it's probably very close to what you describe.
Posted By: Cosi

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/31/18 05:29 PM

My Kawai dealer will receive it ! At the end of March... smirk
Posted By: Pologuy

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/31/18 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by JoBert
Seems that the NV10 is selling quickly at Thomann:

Last week, their delivery date for the NV10 was Jan 31st. Yesterday it was marked as "immediately available". Today it is marked as "expected delivery Feb 28th".

That left me unsure if those delivery dates were only guesses (that have been moved back by them) so I sent them an email and they told me, that they do have the NV10 in their shop for testing, but do no longer have it in store, as all units they had are already sold out. (Of course I do not know how many units they had, so "selling quickly" could also mean that they got two units, put one into their shop and sold the other...)

frown because if I decide to order one I have to wait longer.

smile because I'll soon be able to finally test the NV10 myself.


Ask them how many units they "had" - and whether or not they would be willing to give you the names of the people who purchased them so you could call and ask them what they thought of them...

And then see what he says. smile
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/31/18 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by Pologuy
and whether or not they would be willing to give you the names of the people who purchased them so you could call and ask them what they thought of them...


Uh...yeah that ain't happening under BDSG/GDPR.
Posted By: Pologuy

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 01/31/18 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by Pologuy
and whether or not they would be willing to give you the names of the people who purchased them so you could call and ask them what they thought of them...


Uh...yeah that ain't happening under BDSG/GDPR.


Well, it was meant more for the other reason...

But that happens a lot in the US - the salesperson that sold them the piano (or whatever) calls the person they sold it to and asks if it's OK for a prospective buyer to contact them regarding their purchase.
Posted By: bSharp(C)yclist

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 02/01/18 02:33 AM

Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
I can't see it being more than 12K, even that might be too high. Given that you can get an N2 for 8K now (at least here in US), how much more is one willing to pay for the NV10? The NV10 certainly has newer technology, not sure how much it's worth. Perhaps Yamaha decided not to say anything at NAMM, hoping that Kawai comes out of the gate too high, and pushes everyone to buy up all the old N2s. Then they will announce the N2X smile


One will be available at the Kawai store in Orange County in a few weeks. They will call/text me when it's setup and ready to try. I was told only one is arriving, and many others have called asking about the new model. I imagine it will sell quick, and based on what he said on the phone, it won't be 20K .. but it won't be less than 10 either. Closer to the number I mentioned above, thought it was said it can be negotiated. I will at least go and take a look at it.
Posted By: Galuwen

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 02/01/18 04:42 AM

Hopefully they won't run in the same disaster as their new CA series: Unaccetable sound quality, touch screen software not working (Favorites not working, no possibility to store basic setup, keyboard language emulation disaster, mp3 player not working, Bluetooth audio playback with loud hiss during playback, frequent crashes, headphone crash bug,....). The NV10 with last sound patch, better speakers and / or sound board and ceeck block buttons would be a fantastic instrument...
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 02/01/18 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
based on what he said on the phone, it won't be 20K .. but it won't be less than 10 either. Closer to the number I mentioned above, thought it was said it can be negotiated.


I've heard exactly the same from several shops by now. My uninformed hunch is that "negotiable" will put it between $11000-13000 pre tax. On the higher end for sure, but still coming in under the N3X. Whether it will be worth a sizable premium over the N2 will depend on how authentic the Millennium 3 action is (I came away surprising meh feeling over the AG-series action).
Posted By: bSharp(C)yclist

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 02/01/18 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by Gombessa

I've heard exactly the same from several shops by now. My uninformed hunch is that "negotiable" will put it between $11000-13000 pre tax. On the higher end for sure, but still coming in under the N3X. Whether it will be worth a sizable premium over the N2 will depend on how authentic the Millennium 3 action is (I came away surprising meh feeling over the AG-series action).


I would agree with that Thanks for the comment on the action. I'm curious to see how it feels compared to the N2. Of course the guy I spoke with said it was much better, but then again, I didn't expect him to tell me it was worse ;0
Posted By: Bambers

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 02/01/18 03:44 PM

I'd have thought finding a kawai GL10/GL30 or so would give you a pretty good idea of how it will feel, might be easier than finding a novus on display!
Posted By: Gombessa

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 02/01/18 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by Bambers
I'd have thought finding a kawai GL10/GL30 or so would give you a pretty good idea of how it will feel, might be easier than finding a novus on display!


While that's probably right, I've heard enough general banter/sales talk that suggests it may or may not be the case:

1. One of Kawai's videos says the action mechanism is identical to that in their concert grands. Is the Millennium 3 in the SK the same as in the GL-10?
2. One of Kawai's videos says you can't tell the difference between the NV10 action and their 7ft grand (and there's no 7ft GL).
3. One sales rep I talked to who played an NV10 demo unit in 2017 said he thinks the regulation is closer to that in the GX-5 than the GL series.

And a couple more like that. I know none of these are authoritative, but after playing a range of Kawai acoustic grands, there's enough difference in the actions between the GL/GX/SK that I feel the serious buyer has to try it out themselves to confirm.
Posted By: Osho

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 02/01/18 04:43 PM

As Mark Twain said, the proof of the pudding is in its eating... likewise, the proof of Novus NV10 action is going to be in its playing with one's own fingers... All videos etc. do not help one way or another - especially given these are from impartial parties.

Osho
Posted By: Francis Martin

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 02/07/18 11:15 PM

Hello to all who are interested in the KAWAI NOVUS NV10,

following links to some new YouTube-Clips about the NV10.
The first link shows the NV10 from inside, probably for the first time.
The second and the third links show two new clips from Bonners Music.

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6lBu2L0ihs
"UNBELIEVABLE!!! Affordable Shigeru!!! Kawai Concert Digital Piano Hybrid Novus NV10"

2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mk4gOJWsRfw
"Kawai Novus NV10 Hybrid Piano | UK Buyer's Guide & Playing"

3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rNHELnuNbI
"Kawai Novus NV10 vs Yamaha AvantGrand N1 | Hybrid Piano Test"

4. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deXYQRPDSSI
"Kawai NV10 Novus"

Cheers, Frank
Posted By: Francis Martin

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 02/08/18 07:09 PM

In addition to the four links to the new YouTube clips about the NOVUS NV10 above (or page before), here's another link, now to a Danish speaking dealer - obviously a store in Denmark named "digital PIANO.dk, Juhl Soerensen" - removing/lifting the grand piano fallboard during his presentation at 1:17.

5. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-HA9X8f5qQ
„Kawai Novus NV10 - Introduktion på Dansk“

As you can see, removing/lifting the fallboard happens in about 2 seconds and is basically very easy with this instrument. However, there are many grand piano manufacturers who are really tricky about this and where, in addition, it is necessary to remove some small screws beforehand, as Kawai James has implied before. But not so with the NV10. This work goes here really easy and fluid.
Then the presenter carefully reinserts the fallboard at 1:32, which takes about 10 seconds.

Nevertheless one can make mistakes out of carelessness. This happens even to experienced piano-technicians at the end of their often exhausting regulation work, which can take hours, and then it comes to damage because they have not focused enough for the final seconds of all the work done before for this simple and final action! A note that sounds banal, but it is not: Hold the fallboard when lifting and re-inserting really firm (!) in the hands, otherwise it can fall to the keyboard and do everything really slowly without any pressure to the material. When re-inserting, make sure that the fallboard on the right and left side really gets into the respective guides. That's it.

Why am I writing this at all? It happens again and again that pencils which are dropped on top of the grand piano before the music rest (!) roll down into the gap between the keyboard cover and housing. If you do not carefully and calmly remove the pen from its "dangerous" position, it rolls/falls behind the open keyboard lid down to the inside of the instrument on the keyboard. This happens especially when one now moves the fallboard, e.g. to close it. On the keyboard, the pen rattles while playing, which of course is incredibly annoying. The pen must be taken out again. There is no other way. Exactly for this, one should know, how to remove the fallboard itself (!) and put it back in, without having to let a technician come for it. After all, you only want to have your pen back and finish the rattling in the instrument and not tinker with the electronics.

In this respect, I can only recommend, in this regard, the "analog" and "acoustic" parts such as wood, felts and leather of his digital instrument (with all necessary caution) get to know. These things should not be a “black box”.

Hope, this will help, if someone is in such a trouble. So, don't worry and be happy, that you are able to open the NV10 so easily from frontside (!) and get your instrument "repaired".

Frank
Posted By: Francis Martin

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 02/08/18 07:53 PM

Hello Pologuy

within my post from 01/28/2018 I've asked you for some help:

@Pologuy: You’ve posted that you phoned the senior management of KAWAI America Corp., which had confirmed the price. Could you please tell us something about this phone call and of course tell us the name with whom you phoned? This would be helpful in any case. Thank you in advance and thanks for your important activities in this case.

Your answer may clarify the background of KAWAI America's alleged list price (MSRP) for the KAWAI NOVUS NV10 of US$ 19.900,00. After all, you placed a post here in this thread, in which you expressed that the senior management of KAWAI America confirmed this price to you by phone.
You would certainly also do a great favor to the community here in connection with the NAMM 2018 two weeks ago, when this topic hit big waves here.

I thank you in advance and look forward to hearing from you.

With kind regards,
Frank
Posted By: Francis Martin

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 02/18/18 06:26 PM

Following additional link to a new YouTube-clip about the KAWAI NOVUS NV10.

Here for the first time recorded in direct comparison to a not sampled, but acoustic SHIGERU KAWAI SK-EX Concert Grand, which is positioned directly next to the NV10.
Probably also for the first time, one can hear the NV10 not only by it's Line-Out signal, but also with its built-in speaker system, recorded with the omnidirectional binaural microphone "Free Space" by 3DIO.

The clip was published on 02/14/18 by:
The Piano Store & The Recording Place (Rocklin, Ca)
www.thepianostore.co
www.therecordingplace.com

6. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CgcFCf2qRk
"FIGHT!!! 3DIO/Shigeru SK-EX VS Novus NV10/9'1" Concert Grand vs Digital Hybrid/Acoustic vs Electric!"

Following the links mentioned above in this thread, one can see also some other new clips (1.-5.) about the KAWAI NOVUS NV10, made from KAWAI dealers.
Posted By: Osho

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 02/18/18 07:44 PM

Originally Posted by Francis Martin
Following additional link to a new YouTube-clip about the KAWAI NOVUS NV10.

Here for the first time recorded in direct comparison to a not sampled, but acoustic SHIGERU KAWAI SK-EX Concert Grand, which is positioned directly next to the NV10.
Probably also for the first time, one can hear the NV10 not only by it's Line-Out signal, but also with its built-in speaker system, recorded with the omnidirectional binaural microphone "Free Space" by 3DIO.


Thanks for posting and sharing the link.

NV10 via speakers doesn't sound anywhere close to the actually Shigeru Kawai. Line-Out sounds much better.

What is the 'bug' that they are referring to for NV10 via its speakers?

Thanks,
Osho
Posted By: Francis Martin

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 02/18/18 10:36 PM

Hi Osho,
I'm afraid, you are totally right. The Line-Outs sound definitely better than the recording via the speakers, both compared to the acoutic SK-EX.

Alan Chandler on YouTube - the first post to that clip - asked:
"The second sample is very tinny. Does the Novus 10 really sound like that through its speakers (sample 2) as opposed to with line-out (sample 3). You make no comment about it other than there is a problem with white noise. [...]"

An hour ago 'The Piano Store NorCal' answered:
"Alan- Thank you for your Question. That "Tinny" Sound is due to the several situations. One- the top speakers are covered by the music desk which limits the sound quality like 15% , Two- the Novus has 4 top speakers that push the mid-highs and the lower speaker is the low-mids ... We didn't get to hear the sound perfect Since the player blocked the lower speaker giving us a real thin recording. Last-Yes there is a "fuzzy" noise that is being addressed and will be taken care of.
What I can do is record the Novus playing its built in songs with all my mics like direct mic, room mic and lower mic so you can experience the full speaker mode. Will that be of interest?"

I would say, that would be of great interest!
And I hope, that the result could be a first more professional "view" to the sound of the speakers.

In adition, he could probably make a second recording from the same pieces, but now recorded from two good studio-monitors, standing directly left and right to the NV10 (or behind), and of course, same mic-positions.

Any improvements to the experimental setup or supplements?
Posted By: akc42

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 02/18/18 10:53 PM

Originally Posted by Francis Martin

Alan Chandler on YouTube - the first post to that clip - asked:
"The second sample is very tinny. Does the Novus 10 really sound like that through its speakers (sample 2) as opposed to with line-out (sample 3). You make no comment about it other than there is a problem with white noise. [...]"


Thats me.
Posted By: Francis Martin

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 02/18/18 11:01 PM

@akc42
Perfect! I didn't know.
Do you want to make a post to 'The Piano Store NorCal' regarding their suggestion for additional recordings?
Would certainly be very helpful to hear and read their output and rating.
Posted By: akc42

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 02/18/18 11:06 PM

@Francis Martin I already have
Posted By: UKchap75

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/04/18 01:37 PM

Hi All. I have been following this thread (as a non-member) since last year when the Kawai Novus NV10 became a topic of much conversation. I bought an NV10 a few weeks ago, on the day they were launched in the UK. I've now had it a few weeks so thought I'd let you all know my thoughts. Firstly, I'm a casual player, for my own relaxation and pleasure, late in the evenings on most nights. I play a mix of classical, film themes, and soft ballads. I also have a baby grand acoustic, but a year ago I bought a Yamaha P255 for the front room as the acoustic is in the lounge with the TV! smile I have also tried the yamaha CVP709, CLP685, NU1X, N1, N2. Out of these pianos I actually preferred the NU1X. And didn't like the 685 at all (the sound comes from beneath which seemed all wrong). I wanted a hybrid piano because I found my digital P255 didn't give the touch and feel anything like an acoustic - obviously. I wanted a digital piano purely for a good piano sound alone - no bells and whistles - an acoustic piano alternative. The Kawai NV10 defintely does just that. It is actually much nicer to play than my acoustic (a 30 year old german piano, owned from new). I have watched every available NV10 video on YouTube and have read all the comments. This NV10 is just very very lovely. It makes me play with soooo much feeling and emotion. I recently played a fairly new Steinway which gave me a similar feeling to play - very emotionally. A recent video commented on the tinny sound and white noise. I have had two very minor issues with my NV10. A squeaky sustain pedal (which the shop sorted out straight away). And the white noise. To be fair, the manual does tell you how to reduce any unusual metallic noises, but I found these didn't really do a lot for me. However, yesterday I altered the tone settings, reducing the high end setting and increasing the mid tones; it reduced the white noise to basically zero, and filled the mid tones out a little to suit my room. I also found that the default settings tend to be quite high reverb, which on a recording probably makes the sound quite distant, which possibly equates to the tinny sound that has been mentioned on YouTube. In reality it is not tinny at all in a normal room (with carpets and curtains). I imagine a concert grand in the same room would sound almost compressed! smile Anyway, I'm off now to play some more. Thanks Kawai. I have been looking for the right digital piano for over five years, and now I have it. Any potential buyers will not be disappointed.
Posted By: JoBert

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/04/18 02:03 PM

UKchap75, congrats on your new piano and that you like it so much!

You've probably already seen it, but just in case, you're welcome to hang out over at our "hands on" thread. Right now you'd be the fourth owner there:
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre.../1/kawai-novus-nv10-hands-on.html#UNREAD
Posted By: Osho

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/04/18 07:55 PM

Congratulations Ukchap75, and thanks for sharing your impressions!!

Thanks
Osho
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 - 03/05/18 02:15 AM

Indeed, welcome to the forum UKchap75, and congratulations on the purchase of your NV10!

Kind regards,
James
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