Not sure if these 2 are in the same league but would like to know your opinion if you have tried both.

Hi, Kawai ES8 is totally superior... is in another league...

Kawai ES8 is much more expensive and does not have synthesizing capabilities which the Casio PX-560 does. Some will agree that Kawai fudged up the RH3 action, as compared with the older RH2, so beware!

Care to elaborate more on your superiority claim?

Better action, better piano sound. (Subjective, but that's the likely consensus.)

OTOH, heavier, more expensive, fewer extra sounds.

I'd like to think that ES8 has better piano sound but regarding better action, like what the previous comment is saying, RH3 is worse than RH2? I know this may not be a consensus, but, while it's tough and subjective to compare one brand (Kawai ES8) with another brand (Casio PX-560), those who play both RH2 and RH3 can be more objectively compare each other. That said, if this claim re ES8 action has some merit, does ES8 still superior, be it comparing to PX-560 or to ES7?

Im curious about this comment too. How did Kawai "fudge up" the RH3 action?

Please read the review at AZPIANONEWS.BLOGSPOT.COM about the Kawai CN25 which has the RH3 action. Even for you guys that think it is only a sales vehicle for Tim, he is comparing one Kawai action to another and he sales them both. I think it is a pretty convincing argument. The reason he raises the argument in the first place is because the RH2 action was very, very good.

Es8 is more beautiful sounding. As to the action, I read the AZPiano review, the new action has a faster rebound.

I don't think he's really talking down the CN25's RH3 keyboard that much, really. And I'm a bit puzzled by his observation that these keyboards feel more like uprights that grands. That's not my experience. But if you want to read up on it, check out what he says. .

The difference in the ES7/ES8 action is shown and described in post #2328227 at http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2323243


I don't think he sells the CN25, he says......but I don't think that matters.

More to the point, I don't think it's an example of someone saying they fudged it up. He seems to say both actions have their strong points, and doesn't seem sure which he likes better.

First, in favor, he says (emphasis added),
though he also says,

So... a little of each.

I'd be curious to hear about that faster return... is it simply faster or does it also push back on your fingers? Anyone have a thought there?

I've read a bunch about the ES8, but I'm sure I missed some threads, too. Can anyone else point to comments indicating a possible preference for the ES7 action over the ES8, or more than that, that they actually fudged up the ES8?

Personally, while I think highly of the Casio action for the price (and travel weight), I thought the MP7 (same action as the ES7) felt much better. But I haven't had a chance to play the ES8.

My take on what he means, and I sent him a message about it but he never got back, is that the RH2 feels more like a grand action compared to the RH3. Does that mean the RH3 then feels more closely to an upright? I never got the answer from him.

Even grands feel different from each other, as do uprights. But they all feel like real pianos. So if a DP feels really close to any of them, I'd consider it a success! I suspect that if your playing and repertoire is of the calibre that it would disturb you to play on an upright rather than a grand, none of the digitals we're talking about are really going to make you happy. Look at something like an MP11 or a Yamaha avant grande to get as close as you can.

RH2 and RH3 have the same key fulcrum (or length to pivot point) and they have very similar mechanism. The difference is whether one likes the counterweight on RH3 (the feel of a little more substance - which applies to both push-down and return) or not.

In comparison, Casio has shorter key fulcrum to Kawai. So, if one plays near the back of key often, this can be a consideration. If not, then Casio is just fine.

I agree, Casio has a shorter key fulcrum more similar to Kawai AHA-IV key action, Kawai RH2/RH3 key fulcrum and mechanism is more similar to Roland PHA3/PHA4(Premium&Concert) key actions...

The MP7 (same action as ES7) has a quicker return with less push-back and less bounce than the Casio.

Hi Anotherscott, in this point i am totally agree with you too, Casio key return and key bounce is more similar (although slightly less pronounced in Casio keys) to Roland PHA3/PHA4 key actions...

It seems like based on the discussion here, Casio's action should be just fine for most player subjective to the person's preference and if so, assuming all else being equal, the only other factor is price in which ES8 can be $800 more than PX-560.

"All else being equal" is a big caveat, as there are many differences between these boards.

If all you care about is the piano function, and you're going to be triggering a piano sound from your computer, then as you say, action and price are likely the biggest considerations. And an action someone prefers is one of the biggest reasons people decide to pay more. If you're going to use the internal piano sound, though, then that's potetially another big area of difference. And then there's the matter of whether anything else matters (non-piano sounds, portability, other features). Also, difference in the fullness/volume of the internal speakers can matter, or not (if you mostly use headphones or external monitors).

Try Kawai ES7, because RH2 for me has a better feeling key action, and now ES7 is less money than ES8... Just to clarify, key actions topic is very subjective, but despite that in theory RH3 is a superior key action, to my fingers, RH2 feels better...

If someone doesn't need internal speakers, they can look at the MP7 for RH2 action with better-than-ES7 sounds. And still cheaper than ES8.

FYI, I do need internal speaker and ES7 does have a good speaker sound imo. That said, although statistical number (as shown above) between PX560 and ES8 does show PX560 offer more, but:
a. not sure how good PX560 speaker compare to ES8
b. I tried Roland FP-80 rhythm section and I don't like it, ES7 has much better rhythm imo and so, not sure about PX560 rhythm

That said, these 2, along with action, can't be describe by statistical number. Unfortunately, no music store in my town has PX560 or ES8 on display. I did try CN35 (which uses RH3) and has the same feeling that I like RH2 better.

Anotherscott, i am totally agree with you, Kawai MP7 would be the best digital piano under $2500 range... Key action is same to ES7 but sound is much better, more expressive and dynamic... Only Roland RD800 maybe come close to the MP7 in key action and sound (subjective)... and MP7 is only surpassed in key action by Kawai MP11 and VPC1...

The ES7 sound is the same as the mp7 isn''t it?

Hi emenelton, sound is not the same, ES7 uses PHI a old kawai sound technology while MP7 uses the more new HI XL for a more complex, rich, detailed, expressive and dynamic sound, at the end a really amazing sound.

A little off topic, but you guys that make hundreds of posts, are you guys getting paid?
Just wondering why some of you make all these posts?

You should be getting a check for $71 ($1 per post)

This has evolved into ES7 vs. ES8 ....

Well, I have the ES7 and I can tell you that it will take quite a bit to move me off of the ES7. It plays and sounds so good that I have no reason to look for something "better".

And if the OP is a beginner, I would not spend another moment pondering which is "better". The ES7 will be a very nice digital piano for you at a very good price ... in my opinion, of course.

Good Luck

They make all these posts cos they are passionate about stage pianos

It's a worthwhile and interesting hobby - they just have real passion and interest in it

I would like to work in a piano/keyboard shop - when it's quiet I could practise and learn more about all the different models - do any of u guys work in a piano/keyboard shop ?

I never realised how much I liked piano/keyboards cos for most of my life I never even thought of playing one - I only took it up in 2011 but I wish I had learnt about it when I was young cos it takes years to get really good at it

Keep up the passion guys it's actually quite interesting

Hi Edb123 and thank you for your comment uplifting, really you speak from the heart and you're right, because we love this world of digital pianos, and in my particular i speak from my own experience and my own tastes and i don't need anyone to pay me to do it. Happy day to all the good people of this forum.

I agree 100% with DMD. Im fortunate to have some nice DPs that I use for different applications, but the ES7 is still my personal favorite. I practice on it everyday. Yes, the ES8 is very intriguing to me, but as DMD says about the ES7 "It plays and sounds so good....."

Might I also add the overall quality of the ES7 has been amazing for what I have put it through over the years and now with over 1,000+ hours on it. I would expect the ES8 to be just as steadfast and pleasurable.

Fer De Amas, thanks for clarifying. Does the ES8 have better sound than the MP7?

Hi Marko in the Boston, i have come to appreciate that you have a Kawai ES7, a Roland RD800 and Yamaha CP4, i understand what you just said the Kawai is your favorite, then if you had to choose between the three one, which would you choose only considering its key action?. I clarify that I recognize that all are incredible keyboards, and I do not want to create polemics, please, just talk to us about your taste and preference.

You are welcome emenelton, both keyboards share the same sound engine based on HI XL, with the difference that the ES8 adds two additional samples (Shigeru Kawai EX and Shigeru Kawai SK-5) of the same quality than Kawai EX present in MP7, but they have different nuances that add more variety to the instrument.

Hi dmd, i am totally agree with you that ES7 keys are best under $2500 period... but are you tried other similar choices like Yamaha CP4 and Roland RD800?, how compare ES7 key action with these, in your opinion of course?... Thanks!

I have not tried the ones you mentioned for the reason I previously alluded to ... I have a sense of being totally satisfied with the ES7.

Prior to the ES7 purchase, I had about 5 different DPs in a 2 year period, frantically searching for the right one.

Thankfully, my focus now is on learning to play without feelings that a "better" piano would make me sound better.

If it doesn't sound good now ... it is on me ... not on the piano.

I totally understand what you saying and 100% agree with you that ES7 is a good instrument, however, keep in mind that you do have ES7 while I don't and therefore, I do have the opportunity to choose and in order to choose, I need to be well informed. That said, I'm here not because I want to have an unending search of the "better" instrument, but to be well informed.

Trying not to get OT but will answer your question. The reason the ES7 is my personal favorite is mostly because of my comfort level and connection with it. I have owned for a few years now and practice on it almost every day for at least an hour+. With all the time spent I know every aspect and characteristics of its capabilities and how it works with my style of playing. It's the comfort level of an honest friend sharing all the good and bad. This is why I am most confident using the ES7 in a live "solo" event.

The RD800 is wonderful when Im playing with the band. Amazing sounds with tons of voices and live sets that I can quickly jump into. Great on stage with all the flexibility required to get "that sound" I'm (and/or the band are) looking for. It really helped my playing skills and creativity to the next level.

CP4 is a great stage piano with focus on AP piano and EP piano. I adopted the CP4 for a few months from a friend that took a job overseas and I eventually bought it from him as he no longer needed it in his new situation. I thoroughly enjoy its great CFX and EP sounds. Really fun to play with its responsive action and organic feel. I plan to spend more time with it and hopefully discover all its offerings.

You want to know about action out of the three. Well Im sorry, no definitive answer. All three are very well made with an authentic feel to an acoustic piano. It's been said a thousand times here on the forum; it's all about personal preference. I do not have a particular preference for "action only" out of the three as all three feel fantastic to my fingers. However, the connection to the action and sound seems to be a bit more prevalent in the ES7 for me. Again, it just might be a comfort thing. YMMV.

Good morning chaps,

I'm a little late to this party, but just wanted to say that I've enjoyed reading the discussion.

@tnsettlemo, regarding your 'fudged' comment, may I ask if you have play-tested the RHII and RIII keyboard actions side-by-side, or is this conclusion based on the interpretation of one online review? By the way, I love fudge.

@ElmerJFudd, may I ask if you prepared that spec comparison table yourself, or was it sourced from another site?

@emenelton, as Fer correctly notes, the ES8 shares the same 'HI-XL' sound specification as the MP7, but also offers the new Shigeru Kawai SK-EX and SK-5 samples that have up until now only been available on the CA97/CA67 instruments.

Cheers,
James
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Hey, James. The data came from dealer site, in this case KraftMusic. Threw it in Excel and did a screen grab. It speaks nothing of how the keyboards sound of course. The quality of the samples and programming, the choice of components (amps, speakers, etc.), build quality. You'd really need to set the two keyboards down next to each other and play for an hour or two. But that's become impossible for many with the demise of shops and their ability to stock their showrooms.

You're familiar with my needs by now, I'd gather. Still weighting (that's a pun) for Kawai to enter the light weight game with a legit stage piano that doesn't sacrifice anything but excess pounds. Nord is too expensive and I don't care for their choice in DP actions, same problem with Kurzweil. Yamaha CP4 is over $2k as well and still 38.5lbs. I think Kawai can do this - if you feel there's a market for it of course.

Ah, I see thanks for the confirmation.

Yes, specs really do tell just one side of the story. As you say, the only way to assess these instruments properly is to play-test them both, ideally back-to-back.

I gather that the Sam Ash in NYC does have an ES8 on the floor, and I expect they will have a PX-560 available shortly too...if not already (Mike?).

Cheers,
James
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CP40 is cheaper and lighter ($1399, 36 lbs). Even the Kawai ES100 is 33 lbs. I think the only decent action in a board lighter than these is probably Casio.

Ok dmd, totally agree with you and that's the attitude my friend ... enjoy your ES7 ! Thanks for your response and your contribution to this topic!...

Kawai James, thank- you for emphasizing that fact.

Ok Marko in Boston, thanks for your honest answer and i congratulate you because not everyone can afford to have the top line of each of the best brands in digital pianos. Let me say that and I share the fact that more important than the action itself, is key to sound connection, which allows for greater expressiveness and is what has created that connection with your ES7, which I perfectly understand because the same thing happens with my MP7, and is something that Kawai has done very well with these DP that share this RH2 action. Is so wonderful the dynamics that can be achieved with this action... well basically i would like to know which keys feel more organic, less plastic and more real, which is heavier and which is the lightest, fast rebound and key repetition, quicker or sluggish, spongy or flat feel... Finally, if key actions is on par in all three boards, so tell me in terms of sound, dynamic and cut in the mix sound, which is your favorite?... Thanks again for your contribution to this interesting topic!

I share your opinion... and not everything can be had at the same time without sacrificing something, because usually the best key actions are heavy, but we must recognize the great work has done by Casio in the low-end segment with boards with very good actions for the price. I think that key action in ES100 is on par in that in Yamaha CP40, what do you think about it?

In all fairness to the OP we need to stay on topic "Casio PX-560 vs Kawai ES8." I would be getting way OT even more than I already have if I get into action comparison with CP4 vs RD800 vs ES7. I will PM you with some answers to your questions.

These are two completely different instruments at two very different price points.

The PX-560 has a range of instrument sounds that is far different and expansive than the ES8. The PX-560 not only has great pianos, electric pianos and more but a range of synths and textures that are only rivaled by the PX-5S. This sound (on the PX-5S) is something that can be done easily on the PX-560 as an example:

https://soundcloud.com/casiomusicgear/privia-pro-px-5s-intro

Not to mention the fact that the PX-560 is half the weight, has drum patterns, accompaniment, sequencing features and more.

Ok, I believe that this is a very fair proposal my friend, I will be one of the first to appreciate this topic when you open it, and so many people will know a little more about these three wonderful digital pianos, the top of the line of the three largest corporations in DP today, thank you very much...

May I note that at least in Europe the price difference between ES8 and PX-560 is just 20 %? So it is totally possible to get an ES8 for almost the PX-560 price through some bargaining.

I think with another 20 % off in Europe, the new Privia Series would sell way better.

Yes, I'm aware of that. I probably has to be more clear in what I really wanted to know. Though these 2 may well be a completely 2 different instrument, what I want to know is, for lack of a better term, the "core function" of a DP between the two, and by "core function" I mean a subjective comparison of:
1. action
2. sound
3. speaker sound
4. rhythm section. I don't play with this very often but still interested to know especially because both instrument has this feature and, as I mentioned on previous post, I tried Roland FP-80, which from price stand-point is the closest to ES7 and I think ES7 rhythm section is superior.

Just got the white furniture stand with pedal board today for my px560 and I do believe the quality of the stand is better than the one Yamaha makes for my p255. Congrats, Casio!!!

Yes, that's true, however I gather that the OP is based in North America, where the two instruments occupy different price points, as Mike notes.

Cheers,
James
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I'd say there are similarities and differences. Similar in the respect that both instruments are portable DPs with 88 weighted keys and built-in speakers, yet different in that the PX-560 offers a broader range of workstation-like features (touchscreen, sequencer, larger sound selection), while the ES8 is arguably geared more towards piano playing.



Note that the ES8 also features drum patterns/accompaniments, although lacks the ability to create user material and other sequencer functions found on the PX-560. Ah, the PX-560 also wins on weight, although this is generally true of all Privia boards when compared with other manufacturer's instruments.

Kind regards,
James
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For how much longer, James? Might we see a light weight Kawai with pro stage piano audio i/o this January in Anaheim, CA?

Hows that PX-5S rev coming along, Mike?

You can't win James. The minute Kawai makes any high-end board light weight with plastic will automatically be deemed cheap and flimsy. As you know Roland and Yamaha has already taken their knocks with new shell designs to compensate lighter weight.

Mike, PX-5S is near perfect. Just add half damper, call it PX-6S and shut everyone up.

...and expresion pedal, and more intuitive operation (probably via their 360/560 touchscreen)

^^^^
The Casio touch screen UI was a major move on their part and I would expect we'll see it on most of their new keyboards going forward... at least in the upper part of the Privia range - and it's already on the new CGP. So half damper, expression pedal input, and the touch screen UI and we've got a PX-6S (of course a hot new piano library with longer samples and and more velocity layers is always a bonus).

In case anyone interested to read recent review for both DP by Mixdown Magazine:
Kawai ES8: http://www.mixdownmag.com.au/kawai-es8-digital-piano
Casio Privia including PX-560: http://www.mixdownmag.com.au/casio-privia-pro-series-keyboards

Thank you for sharing the links.

I guess we'll have to buy the magazine for the full ES8 review...

All plastic construction isn't the only way to achieve light weight design. You'd be surprised what we upright monkeys can do when we set our engineering minds too it. Kawai already has a nice line - they just haven't decided if they want to offer something to compete with the PX-5S or 560. Maybe the profit margin is too thin at that price point.

Got to play the 160, 360, and the 860 this evening at my local Sam Ash. No 560 in yet. Not sure if they will order one for the showroom as they've never had a PX-5S in either. The Casio action is very playable, and I actually like the textured key tops. You can feel the grading as well, although I think it could feel a little more obvious somewhere around an octave or so lower than it does. A few Kawai models in, but no MP11, MP7, or ES7/8.

Elmer, just out of interest, which Sam Ash store did you visit, and which Kawai models were on the floor?

I recently heard that one of their NY locations (unfortunately I forget which one...) has an ES8 on the floor, and possibly the current MPs also.

As for an ultra-lightweight Kawai board, yes, I hear you.
Let's see what happens in the future.

Cheers,
James
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My local Sam Ash is on the NJ side of the Hudson river in Paramus. It's a good shop and it's been here a long time. Decent showroom but heavy on family and home keyboards. There are pro boards on display - Roland FA, Yamaha XF and MOXF, Korg Kronos and Krome, Nord Stage, and of late lots of synths - Prophet 6, a few Moogs, and that Auturia Key lab thing.

Local Guitar Center carries very few pro boards, and one further away in Wayne has pro boards but exactly same selection as Sam Ash. No Kawai, Casio, or Kurzweil pro offerings as far as stage pianos or workstations.

And at least one of the sample libraries from the Hybrid Grand

Here is a video interview and article on David Rosenthal's keyboard rig for Billy Joel's shows at Madison Square Garden. He is using Main Stage on Mac OSX and Muse Receptors. It's brilliant, sounds great, but requires quite a bit of redundancy. 5 part video, very interesting to say the least.

Keyboard Magazine Link

Hi James, it is the NYC Manhattan one on 34th that has it- along with a few Kawai consoles as well. Following up from our discussion, my dealer is not really giving me timely responses and seems evasive in answers. They told me to call them, then didn't call me back. For that reason I am likely going to stick with Musicians Friend or Sam Ash as I feel as though I know what the return policy is and have some sort of Amex protection- and quite possibly a 4th year on the warranty through the credit card.

Thanks for going over the marketing specs Mike- The drum patterns really would tip the scale I gather for most people. Having to use weight as an argument is somewhat desperate.

The ES8 is a superior instrument and I know what I am talking about.I have played on the stage with professionals that use Kawai products.
The speakers on the ES8 are better as well.The Rhodes is more realistic as well.Who cares about the range of instruments? I care about the quality.

The PX130 is an excellent instrument- but it does not compare to the ES8.However, I use it for taking in the car, sharing with friends etc.. It does not mean it is better than Kawai because it weighs less.

Also Kawai didn't cut corners on the speakers or parts like the PX150/350 did.

¿? The weight doesn't make the piano to sound better obviously, it's simply a feature that can be of great value for many users and a conclusive feature in the purchase decision.



Even accepting that the features of the ES8 could be better, if you need some of the lacking features that the PX-560 does have, the "superior" ES8 would be useless.

And the saving measures is what allows Casio to offer what is almost universally accepted as the best bang for the buck, in a portable pack.

Unfair comparisons, don't you think Possum? The best instrument or tool is the one that meets the needs of your job. If you need to drag your keyboard around (house to car, car to ceremony, ceremony to cocktails, cocktails to band stand, band stand to car, car to house) weight is a factor in "better". If the gig calls for a wide range of sounds, splits, and layers then a broader library and ease of programming is "better". Amp and speakers are irrelevant for live play where supplemental amplification is required anyway.

From a different prespective, if what is desired is a home instrument that takes the place traditionally held by the acoustic piano, then better is defined by focus on a very good piano library, excellent internal amp and speakers, acoustic-like piano action, and build quality where light weight is irrelevant.

I'm going to throw out there, once again, heh heh , that Kawai could do a compromise instrument that is of excellent build quality and yet light weight with superior quality piano and EP libraries but also has a wide range of other sounds and simple split/layer program creation/recall. The same instrument could be offered in two variations, one with excellent amp and speakers, and one without them opting for professional balanced and unbalanced io instead. Just saying.

Weight is a big factor in my purchases. I'm not going to regularly gig with a 50 lb board. Weight figures into many of my gear purchases. And it's part of why over the years I've bought Casio's PX500L, PX310, and PX5S.

IMO, there are objective and subjective better between instrument. An objective better instrument is when both (or more if we comparing more than just 2) instrument has exactly the same feature. In this case we can objectively compare between PX560 and ES8: action, sound, and speaker sound (plus weight and rhythm section if you want it). Keep in mind that this so called objective comparison still has subjective element in it in which I may like the action of ES8 better but other people may have different opinion for example. That said, "objective" here means both instrument has the same feature and therefore we can compare it "objectively".

A subjective better on the other hand mean you have to decide what is better instrument based on your needs. In this case, both instrument may not necessarily has the same features. If what you need is synthesizing feature (which ES8 don't have), then PX-560 is subjectively better for you. That said, what is subjectively better for you may not be necessarily the same case for other people.

I have a px150, the piano teacher's daughter has an es6. Assuming the es8 isn't *that* different for weight, size and speaker quality I would absolutely say that the weight and size difference can be a serious consideration between the two. The ES definitely has superior speakers and standalone sounds much nicer than the casio. For a band/accompaniment/background music situation with an amp or PA the casio is easily going to be more than good enough.

Ok friend and that's for sure also has a much better keyboard action. Kawai plastic action has the most realistic flat feel and responsiveness for an authentic piano experience.

you might start a fight with that statement (well, maybe not). There's a lot of competition in that mid range with mostly plastic actions, and they don't measure up so well against the high end actions. I figure buying in this range is probably mostly calculated compromise.

I'm happy to report that at 4pm today, I made decision to buy ES8 though, I should not be overly happy because the shop has to order it and they don't know whether there are any stock and how long does it take for delivery. Regardless, I'm happy that I made the decision

Most recent review of Kawai ES8: http://azpianonews.blogspot.ca/2015...al-Piano-lowest-price-pro-portable-.html

Congratulations on your purchase, nsetiap.

Thank you for posting the AZPianonews link too - I'll take a look at that now.

Cheers,
James
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Congratulations on your purchase too, nsetiap.

Undoubtedly you made a great choice, because Kawai ES8 could easily placed as the best digital piano under $2800 price range.

Enjoy it...