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Posted By: doremi OT: Windows 10 - 07/31/15 02:39 AM
Anyone made the jump?
Posted By: Gatsbee13 Re: OT: Windows 10 - 07/31/15 02:55 AM
not yet.. but probably will tonight. ill be running it from my macbook pro through bootcamp.. interested to hear feedback from those who've made the jump as i haven't had time to read any reviews on any of the tech sites.
Posted By: ElmerJFudd Re: OT: Windows 10 - 07/31/15 03:31 AM
I use OSX or Windows 7 at the moment. But now that they've decided to stop monetizing the OS I'll give 10 a try. Why not. They say some improvements have been made to Audio/MIDI but I'll believe it when I see it. We've heard that song and dance before.
Posted By: grlazy Re: OT: Windows 10 - 07/31/15 05:42 AM
Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
I use OSX or Windows 7 at the moment. But now that they've decided to stop monetizing the OS I'll give 10 a try. Why not. They say some improvements have been made to Audio/MIDI but I'll believe it when I see it. We've heard that song and dance before.

yep.on a toshiba encore tablet and at dell i5 laptop.
still on 8.1 my daw pc, i thnk i'll wait for that.
looks good,better ui than 8.1 , more user friendly.
both were upgraded,no issues .


Posted By: Hendrik42 Re: OT: Windows 10 - 07/31/15 09:23 AM
Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
... But now that they've decided to stop monetizing the OS I'll give 10 a try.


Stopped? They have just started. You can not play Solitaire on Windows 10 without looking at ads or buying a subscription...
Posted By: ElmerJFudd Re: OT: Windows 10 - 07/31/15 01:33 PM
Haha. Well good thing I don't play solitaire!
Posted By: Alexander Borro Re: OT: Windows 10 - 07/31/15 02:17 PM
No rush to try it for me, and I skipped the whole 8 generation. These days I have little interest in that the latest and supposedly greatest, and more have the attitude, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. smile

I installed windows 7 about 3 years ago on my current machine, with dual boot linux, no problems at all, no blue screens anymore that sometimes I got in XP and earlier windows days ( I skipped Vista also and never missed it apart from when I was forced to DX11 one day, so I went to 7 then from XP),

These days, never any OS crashes, 7 works well, and still serves me well, and my PC gets a fair work out, hours of calculations, using GPU and CPU and not a hiccup in that time and the audio stuff I now use for a year or so, it works great in 7 as well for me.

Seems looking around a lot of drivers are not around yet, but they'll probably work anyway with the older ones in many cases. I'll give it a few months and see how it is received and how certain apps run on it. I guess seeing it is free this time, that's a bonus, and I'll have to do it at some point anyway, but when I feel the time is right to jump ship, not just for the sake of upgrading because I can smile
Posted By: David Farley Re: OT: Windows 10 - 07/31/15 02:26 PM
I've been able to keep some older devices working because Windows Vista 64-bit drivers work with Windows 7 64-bit, and I've had good luck digging up old Vista 64-bit drivers. Those drivers do not work with Windows 8 or 8.1 and I doubt very much they'll work in Windows 10. I'm attracted to the idea that Windows 10 runs in a much smaller footprint and the new low-latency stuff Microsoft's been touting. Might do some testing, at least.
Posted By: bill5 Re: OT: Windows 10 - 07/31/15 05:10 PM
Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
I use OSX or Windows 7 at the moment. But now that they've decided to stop monetizing the OS I'll give 10 a try. Why not.
Because Win 7 is an excellent and proven OS while Win 10 isn't. And MS is notoriously erratic with Windows, coming out with crappy versions at least as often as good/great ones. Why risk it?

I have 8.1 and don't like it, but it's bearable...plus there will be inevitable problems with software compatibility, needing new drivers, etc etc.

Also I've heard rumor (granted it's only that) that they are going to start charging subscription fees a la MS Office 365.

Pass...

(PS: I don't consider this totally off-topic as some of us are interested in using our PCs to record or otherwise expand our keyboard capabilities)

Posted By: Doritos Flavoured Re: OT: Windows 10 - 07/31/15 05:16 PM
I'm waiting for the Baidu edition.

kidding, made the jump to the free and ad-free Linux many, many years ago...
Posted By: Frédéric L Re: OT: Windows 10 - 07/31/15 08:01 PM
There is an interesting article on the latency improvements of Windows 10 when using the WASAPI interface. It is on MSDN : https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/hardware/mt298187(v=vs.85).aspx
Posted By: doremi Re: OT: Windows 10 - 07/31/15 08:57 PM
I use a webcam to record myself, primarily to see and listen more carefully what I (an amateur) am doing. But I occasionally share the wmv files too.

MS dumped WMC lock, stock, and barrel from Windows 10. I do not use any other features of WMC, but I like to continue what I am doing as described in the previous paragraph.

Will I be affected if I upgrade?
Posted By: anotherscott Re: OT: Windows 10 - 07/31/15 10:07 PM
There's a lot of great info about Win 10 and its usability for musicians at

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/mus...-thread-post-your-expectations-here.html

including a lot of answers from a Microsoft rep.
Posted By: Digitalguy Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/01/15 12:10 AM
For me the main reason to upgrade would be extended support. Windows 7 support will end in 4.5 years. Windows 8.1 will last 3 years more. Windows 10 support will be supported until October 2025. So if you have a powerful pc with Windows 7 that may well last beyond January 2020, you will have to pay to upgrade then if you haven't done during the free 1 year window. Having said that I think I'll only upgrade my surface and some secondary PCs. I will not risk upgrading my 2 main PCs (Windows 7 and 8.1, both powerful i7 with lots of RAM) amd if I haven't replaced them by 2020 and 2023 I will pay to upgrade then....
Posted By: R_B Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/01/15 12:55 AM
Originally Posted by Doritos Flavoured
I'm waiting for the Baidu edition.

kidding, made the jump to the free and ad-free Linux many, many years ago...


Me too.
Unless/until someone convinces me that there is ANYTHING of use in Windoze that doesn't have AT LEAST an equivalent in open source I'll stay where I am.
Faster fixes too, lots of "eyes on the code", fixes are a competitive pastime for many of the volunteer coders.
Posted By: Dwscamel Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/01/15 01:12 AM
Originally Posted by R_B
Originally Posted by Doritos Flavoured
I'm waiting for the Baidu edition.

kidding, made the jump to the free and ad-free Linux many, many years ago...


Me too.
Unless/until someone convinces me that there is ANYTHING of use in Windoze that doesn't have AT LEAST an equivalent in open source I'll stay where I am.
Faster fixes too, lots of "eyes on the code", fixes are a competitive pastime for many of the volunteer coders.


Team Linux reporting for duty! I'm with you guys - so glad Pianoteq supports us.
Posted By: sullivang Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/01/15 12:58 PM
In the process of upgrading now. My reason: I always have to have the latest version ASAP!

Greg.
Posted By: BeowulfX Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/01/15 10:09 PM
For those with plans to free-upgrade to Windows 10, you may want to check this article out: Rolling Back From Windows 10 to your older OS appears problematic

Posted By: sullivang Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/02/15 01:13 AM
Working fine (tested with Pianoteq 4 only so far), despite the fact that the audio driver for my (very old) M-Audio Fast Track Ultra doesn't list Windows 10 compatibility. (it does support 8.1 though, so I'm not surprised it still works)

Also, I don't know why the author of that article that BeowulfX posted says "The initial upgrade process itself is needlessly long and complicated, too." This is BS IMHO.

Installed on my old Dell M4500 laptop.

Greg.
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/02/15 03:30 AM
I'm trying to find a reason to upgrade. What will I get? A new boot screen? A new version of IE that I'll never use? Support for Outer Mongolian fonts?

Even getting past that ... upgrades are often ill-advised because:

- The upgrade OS may require a heftier machine. Unless your box is a recent upper-range computer, it wasn't built with the new OS in mind. XP users couldn't migrate to Vista. Why should we expect 7 users to be able to upgrade to 10?

- You have to wizard your way through the h*ll that is device compatibility. Will your gear work? Will there be driver support? Or will you have to replace this part, that part, and the other part? (That "free" copy of 10 is not free after all. No thanks!)

- The new OS will likely be buggy. I prefer to let the leading-edgers take the risk. I'll come along when I buy my next computer, and I'll have the smoothed out SP1 or SP2 version.
Posted By: JoeT Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/02/15 08:20 AM
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
The new OS will likely be buggy. I prefer to let the leading-edgers take the risk. I'll come along when I buy my next computer, and I'll have the smoothed out SP1 or SP2 version.

Except that you won't have it.

As private consumer you will always get the newest and buggiest edition of Windows 10 installed automatically via the Internet with no option to opt-out from that. Windows will continuously send telemetry and crash log data back to Microsoft, so they know how bad it runs on your machine (you can't disable that either).

This way you will always test the "latest and greatest" Windows for Microsoft's enterprise customers, so these can get a bug-fixed and stable experience via the LTS program. This is not available to the general public.
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/02/15 11:32 AM
What? No way to opt out of Windows 10? I'm already opted out.

What? No way to block the telemetry/crash data? Not true. Easily blocked if you wish.
Posted By: R_B Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/02/15 02:16 PM
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I'm trying to find a reason to upgrade. What will I get? A new boot screen? A new version of IE that I'll never use? Support for Outer Mongolian fonts?

Even getting past that ... upgrades are often ill-advised because:

- The upgrade OS may require a heftier machine. Unless your box is a recent upper-range computer, it wasn't built with the new OS in mind. XP users couldn't migrate to Vista. Why should we expect 7 users to be able to upgrade to 10?

- You have to wizard your way through the h*ll that is device compatibility. Will your gear work? Will there be driver support? Or will you have to replace this part, that part, and the other part? (That "free" copy of 10 is not free after all. No thanks!)

- The new OS will likely be buggy. I prefer to let the leading-edgers take the risk. I'll come along when I buy my next computer, and I'll have the smoothed out SP1 or SP2 version.


You will STILL need daily "updates" (Haa, the M$ term for patching unfinished code) to get it to do the things that M$ didn't even THINK to test.
Plus "security" updates to patch each "hole" that users and hackers discover in the lace (more like fishing net).

I think there are more reasons to go straight to a Linux distribution than to backgrade to Win10, which will almost certainly carry more BLOAT and commercial "free trials" than ever - plus a few buggy new "functions".
Ubuntu Studio (for example) brings with it a LOT of audio and video packages, graphic arts too. You can select to not install any/all of those.
You can re-partition your hard disk with it and not impact Windon't, other than taking some free disk space for the new partition(s).
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/02/15 04:46 PM
Lots of people and companies would move to Linux ... if it were easy.

But none of my apps will run on Linux. Few of my document files are fully compatible. And re-training is expensive.

If Linux had predated Windows the computing landscape would be different, eh?
Posted By: Lester Burnham Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/02/15 05:21 PM
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Lots of people and companies would move to Linux ... if it were easy.

But none of my apps will run on Linux. Few of my document files are fully compatible. And re-training is expensive.

If Linux had predated Windows the computing landscape would be different, eh?

Unix did predate Windows, and was probably used on corporate desktops (at least large ones) before Windows took hold. May not have been run locally on the desktop, but all the same, there was a period when desktop computing was significantly served by Unix OSs - and quite likely, served by mainframe OSs prior to that.

Many corporates do use Linux (and proprietary Unix OSs), often at web layer level - and many actually pay for licensed and supported distros.

Truth be told, I find OS advocacy rather passe - I've worked with many, and at different levels, and as a techie, I may be as at home on Unix, Windows (of various flavours or levels), Mac OS, and some rather outdated mainframe OSs. In the home environment, I tend to use Windows because most of the apps I want, run most simply, on Windows - and as a techie, I can make Windows behave as I want.
Posted By: Doritos Flavoured Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/02/15 05:31 PM
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Lots of people and companies would move to Linux ... if it were easy.


it's so easy nowadays that you can even run it from Windows to play with it and decide if it's worth installing to disk

Quote
But none of my apps will run on Linux. Few of my document files are fully compatible. And re-training is expensive.


are you sure. I've heard those excuses forever through all these years. Linux is better supported now than ever, with Valve's SteamOS and Android. Heck, even Microsoft makes money off it, both by claiming patent infringment and other such nonsense and having its share of illegal profit from other people work on android and by actually offering Office for Android. She won't offer it for desktop Linux of course, because that would be the end of desktop windows.

Quote
If Linux had predated Windows the computing landscape would be different, eh?


Unix (the OS Linux is modelled after) predates it by a full decade before even when windows was just a window manager for the DOS that microsoft bought from other company.

anyway, enjoy your ad-infested solitaire...
Posted By: Alexander Borro Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/02/15 05:34 PM
Those pro linux debates get me wound up, the fanclubs as it were smile I don't have an either or attitude with linux or windows, so why not use both, I use both since both have their pros and cons for me and I use when it suits depending on application. It is a bit of a blinkered vision IMHO those Linux user extremists. I suppose we get the same debates with modelled versus sampled often around here laugh

For music I use Cubase for recording, it doesn't exist for linux, where is Ivory pianos, drivers for my audio interface don't even exist. etc etc. the list goes on.

That stuff about performance for average desktop use with modern distros that is pretty much old hat these days too, there is a lot more than just the Linux OS to run for typical desktop user these days. KDE or GNOME with all its bells and whistles is more of resource hog than windows often times, since the GPU drivers are just not there up to par with windows in terms of hardware acceleration, and it is not even utilised nearly in full with the open source GPU drivers. With the never cards they are in fact orders of magnitudes slower for serious work that usitilise GPU, that simply can't work for me, where robust CUDA/ OpenCL support is needed in my case as well.

The proprietary drivers for linux for Nvidia are pretty decent but will always be behind the windows ones, and the open source developers don't get the inside scoop from AMD or NVidia, so they will always be behind as long as that remains so. In fact when I bought my NVidia GTX 980 GPU there wasn't one Linux distro with an open source driver for it to even work at all, and for some time.

So different courses for different horses. I'll always be a dual boot man smile
Posted By: doremi Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/02/15 10:15 PM
Nobody worried about privacy?
http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/privacystatement/default.aspx
http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/servicesagreement/

The privacy issue is not limited to Windows 10, not even limited to Microsoft, as the other Internet giants such as Facebook and Google have similar wide-ranging Service Agreements as to privacy - VERY intrusive!
Posted By: RestfulCargo Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/02/15 10:33 PM
Hello pianoworld forum members. First time poster here. Nice to meet you all.

I use a laptop with Windows 8.1 for displaying sheet music on my piano (through a secondary touch screen monitor). With this in mind I tried Windows 10 recently and was disappointed to see they removed PDF Reader completely. This was my main application for reading music due to its excellent touch screen interface. I guess since Edge now takes care of displaying PDFs (or people install something else) Microsoft thought this program was no longer needed. This is kind of a deal breaker and forces me to look for alternatives yet again. This is particularly a sore issue for me. I was happy with PDF Reader (as simple as it may be) and hate having to go through the process of searching, installing, trying, and uninstalling programs again. For now I'll stay with Windows 8.1 but will check again in about a year (before the free offer ends).


Posted By: Lester Burnham Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/02/15 10:38 PM
Originally Posted by doremi
Nobody worried about privacy?
http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/privacystatement/default.aspx
http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/servicesagreement/

The privacy issue is not limited to Windows 10, not even limited to Microsoft, as the other Internet giants such as Facebook and Google have similar wide-ranging Service Agreements as to privacy - VERY intrusive!

Truth be told, no - I'm not that worried about privacy.

Least not with anything I'm using either online, or using "free" services, such as facebook, google et al

I've worked in the IT industry for decades, I have a reasonble feel for how to secure anything I'd truly be bothered about keeping private, other than that, I don't really care, really.
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/03/15 12:05 AM
You've missed the point ...
Originally Posted by Doritos Flavoured
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
But none of my apps will run on Linux. Few of my document files are fully compatible. And re-training is expensive.
are you sure. I've heard those excuses forever through all these years. Linux is better supported now than ever, with Valve's SteamOS and Android.
Quite sure. My company took a look and found that it would cost tens of millions to convert. Linux has plenty of apps, but they're not the same as those on Windows. Switching to Linux would force a lot of retraining and relearning. (Remember: Not everyone is a techie.)

Even the office apps that claim compatibility aren't quite there. That's not a problem in a small company for which Office is a non-starter. But my former employer was a heavy Office user. With 20k+ employees they could not bear the cost of converting. (There was much more to it than just moving MS Office.) After investigating the costs in the mid-2000s, the plan was rejected.

The compatibility problem is worse of all for companies who depend on MS Office for core business use. Excel and Access are programmable, and upon that many companies build their office automation. (It's far cheaper than the six-figure cost of a mid-tier business suite, or the seven-figure cost of a top-tier ERP package. Small companies really don't have the luxury.)

If they try to drop MS Office and move to an alternate office suite, even the slightest incompatibility can bring business operations to a halt. The issues could likely be fixed by re-writing those Office apps, but the cost is prohibitive.

So back to the point ...
Yes, Unix ran on the desktop. I had that arrangement for around ten years ... roughly 1988 through 1998. That ran on expensive proprietary hardware, but neither Windows nor Mac could do the job so the choice was made.

But eventually it became impossible to justify $10,000 for a Unix workstation when a Windows box (by the late 90s) cost around $3,000. So we moved the desktop to Windows.

Business users were fine. The just moved from MS Office on Mac to MS Office on Windows.
Engineering users were fine. They were light users (or non-users) of MS Office. And their server-based Unix apps didn't have to move at all.

But had Linux desktop been there in the mid-90s, it could have run on that lower-cost hardware ... and we might now be in a Linux world.

I think the future will take us down another path (and it has already started). It won't be a Windows vs. Mac item.

More and more work will be done in the cloud. My new company depends heavily on that. We get lower infrastructure cost, faster stand-ups and deployment, rapid up- or down-scaling, and elimination of capital spend.

The desktop OS may soon be irrelevant.
Posted By: Lester Burnham Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/03/15 12:12 AM
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
You've missed the point ...
Originally Posted by Doritos Flavoured
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
But none of my apps will run on Linux. Few of my document files are fully compatible. And re-training is expensive.
are you sure. I've heard those excuses forever through all these years. Linux is better supported now than ever, with Valve's SteamOS and Android.
Quite sure. My company took a look and found that it would cost tens of millions to convert. Linux has plenty of apps, but they're not the same as those on Windows. Switching to Linux would force a lot of retraining and relearning. (Remember: Not everyone is a techie.)

Even the office apps that claim compatibility aren't quite there. That's not a problem in a small company for which Office is a non-starter. But my former employer was a heavy Office user. With 20k+ employees they could not bear the cost of converting. (There was much more to it than just moving MS Office.) After investigating the costs in the mid-2000s, the plan was rejected.

The compatibility problem is worse of all for companies who depend on MS Office for core business use. Excel and Access are programmable, and upon that many companies build their office automation. (It's far cheaper than the six-figure cost of a mid-tier business suite, or the seven-figure cost of a top-tier ERP package. Small companies really don't have the luxury.)

If they try to drop MS Office and move to an alternate office suite, even the slightest incompatibility can bring business operations to a halt. The issues could likely be fixed by re-writing those Office apps, but the cost is prohibitive.

So back to the point ...
Yes, Unix ran on the desktop. I had that arrangement for around ten years ... roughly 1988 through 1998. That ran on expensive proprietary hardware, but neither Windows nor Mac could do the job so the choice was made.

But eventually it became impossible to justify $10,000 for a Unix workstation when a Windows box (by the late 90s) cost around $3,000. So we moved the desktop to Windows.

Business users were fine. The just moved from MS Office on Mac to MS Office on Windows.
Engineering users were fine. They were light users (or non-users) of MS Office. And their server-based Unix apps didn't have to move at all.

But had Linux desktop been there in the mid-90s, it could have run on that lower-cost hardware ... and we might now be in a Linux world.

I think the future will take us down another path (and it has already started). It won't be a Windows vs. Mac item.

More and more work will be done in the cloud. My new company depends heavily on that. We get lower infrastructure cost, faster stand-ups and deployment, rapid up- or down-scaling, and elimination of capital spend.

The desktop OS may soon be irrelevant.

Just one point on the Unix-on-the-desktop in yesteryear thing.

Yes, it was on the desktop - but only fairly rarely using expensive workstations, or not as expensive, but not utterly cheap, X-Terminals.

It was most likely on "dumb" character based terminals (eg Wyse, or other makes) using fairly tradition vt.... emulation, and served over relatively low speed comms lines (given it was all character based traffic).

The reason why PCs moved in to fill that void, being that they were very much more general purpose "New Technology" that meant they could likely serve all the existing functionality by merit of terminal emulators, plus better and more standalone productivity software. Windows apps were becoming increasingly prevalent and there was a certain momentum that was difficult to resist...

A lot of the players in the X-term market, suddenly had a reinvigorating few years as Window's thin client terminal vendors when Citrix was first doing multi-user Windows server OSs.
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/03/15 12:20 AM
Yes, very.
Originally Posted by doremi
... the other Internet giants such as Facebook and Google have similar wide-ranging Service Agreements as to privacy - VERY intrusive!
That's why I seldom post on Facebook. I use it to see what my daughters write. But I reserve my words for direct conversation. I have nearly nothing to say online ... unless I'm using a pseudonym.
Posted By: Doritos Flavoured Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/03/15 10:44 AM
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Yes, very.
Originally Posted by doremi
... the other Internet giants such as Facebook and Google have similar wide-ranging Service Agreements as to privacy - VERY intrusive!
That's why I seldom post on Facebook. I use it to see what my daughters write. But I reserve my words for direct conversation. I have nearly nothing to say online ... unless I'm using a pseudonym.


same here. hey, we're privacy bullies to our children just as those companies lol


Quote

Switching to Linux would force a lot of retraining and relearning. (Remember: Not everyone is a techie.)

Even the office apps that claim compatibility aren't quite there. That's not a problem in a small company for which Office is a non-starter. But my former employer was a heavy Office user. With 20k+ employees they could not bear the cost of converting. (There was much more to it than just moving MS Office.) After investigating the costs in the mid-2000s, the plan was rejected.


well, I'm sure the cost of retraining and relearning when transitioning from traditional Office to ribbon-Office and from pre-W7 to newer Windows' tablet-like interface went fully justified. I'm also sure gpu-acceleration would be a hurdle on those happy hours of gaming in the office.
Posted By: Digitalguy Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/03/15 01:18 PM
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I'm trying to find a reason to upgrade. What will I get? A new boot screen? A new version of IE that I'll never use? Support for Outer Mongolian fonts?

How about security support? Do you plan to replace all your windows 7 devices by the end of 2019? I'm surprised how people do not consider (or forget) this....
Originally Posted by MacMacMac

Even getting past that ... upgrades are often ill-advised because:

[quote=MacMacMac]- The upgrade OS may require a heftier machine. Unless your box is a recent upper-range computer, it wasn't built with the new OS in mind. XP users couldn't migrate to Vista. Why should we expect 7 users to be able to upgrade to 10?


Because Windows 10 is not heavier than 7 or even Vista (Vista was much heavier then XP). Having said that, older machine may not benefit from some new features.

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
- You have to wizard your way through the h*ll that is device compatibility. Will your gear work? Will there be driver support? Or will you have to replace this part, that part, and the other part? (That "free" copy of 10 is not free after all. No thanks!)

The problems reported so far are essentially GPU driver issues (and a few old peripheral drivers, like expresscards). If there are big issues Windows will say it cannot update (as it said with 2 of my Windows 8 atom tablets, as the GPU is not compatible) so no risk
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
- The new OS will likely be buggy. I prefer to let the leading-edgers take the risk. I'll come along when I buy my next computer, and I'll have the smoothed out SP1 or SP2 version.

It doesn't seem so far. I am surprised how well it works on a 2010 Windows 7 pc. But waiting a few months more could be safer, especially if it's the only pc or main pc.
Posted By: Alexander Borro Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/03/15 02:18 PM
Originally Posted by MacMacMac

So back to the point ...
Yes, Unix ran on the desktop. I had that arrangement for around ten years ... roughly 1988 through 1998. That ran on expensive proprietary hardware, but neither Windows nor Mac could do the job so the choice was made.

But eventually it became impossible to justify $10,000 for a Unix workstation when a Windows box (by the late 90s) cost around $3,000. So we moved the desktop to Windows.


Interestingly one of my jobs back in the early nineties involved evaluating desktop linux back then 1993 with a view to use it on PCs seriously( 486 at the time ) instead of SUNOS, Silicon graphics workstations IBMs we had, all Unix based which, as you say, were so costly.

Well, it worked out, I managed to successfully migrate to desktop linux. Windows was never used at work in those days in our group. I recall using one of the very first slackware distros, kernel 1.x.x or something around there, it took days to build and compile everything, but it worked out, and by the end we had fully fledged x windows running on 486 computers, in those days x widows ran fine on that spec. Indeed, It turned out to be a very good cost effective alternative to the expensive silicon graphics x terminals and work stations we had as well, and it saved quite a bit of money on our total setup.

You could remote login to the bigger machines too with all the advantages of x windows and run SGI graphical apps fine that way on the Linux PCs too.

On the other hand, we were not typical office users and didn't need things like MS office. Any office/documents work, they were all typeset back then in Latex/Tex, and linux already had those tools back then to handle large documents and tables to produce very professional looking documents, that excel and office could just not handle, not only that, they looked far worse in terms of quality of fonts as well so they weren't even an option for us. In fact for many journals and professional publications Latex docs were the only thing accepted back then.

So, ironically, for me, compared to today while dekstop linux is far more popular and better known today, the advantages it offers now compared to back then are much reduced compared to when we were on windows 3.1 and the early desktop linux days, in some respects.
Proper multitasking, which early windows wasn't even able to do, some big bonuses it had going for it.

I was amazed the days it all happened and when we migrated. I was so impressed, fully flegded UNIX running on a PC, free C/Fortran compilers, all the stuff we needed it was all there ... for free, who would have believed it. Guess what the prices of C/Fortran compilers like were on commercial Unix alone in those days, not cheap, thousands. laugh.

Luckily, one of the founders of the Perl language was a few office block away from me and there for a helping hand if I needed it with tricky linux builds, he was an expert and I helped me convince me do it when I met him once on a lunch break.

Desktops for linux have been around since the early nineties fully working, but not well known of course in those days. I also ran it on my 486 at home using a graphics card with 1 Mb Ram an it worked fine for me as it was a much better alternative to windows and windows 95 ... for me and my needs anyway.
Posted By: anotherscott Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/03/15 02:39 PM
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I'm trying to find a reason to upgrade. What will I get? A new boot screen? A new version of IE that I'll never use? Support for Outer Mongolian fonts?

As I mentioned, the thread at
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-co...tions-here.html
will give you a lot of info about why musicians in particular may benefit from the upgrade.

But if what you have is working fine, there's always something to be said for "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."
Posted By: bill5 Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/03/15 04:31 PM
Originally Posted by Digitalguy

How about security support?

Microsoft security support. Talk about an oxymoron smile

That's about the last reason I would "upgrade." Windows is never truly secure.
Posted By: Digitalguy Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/03/15 10:08 PM
Originally Posted by bill5
Originally Posted by Digitalguy

How about security support?

Microsoft security support. Talk about an oxymoron smile

That's about the last reason I would "upgrade." Windows is never truly secure.


Then don't use it
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/03/15 10:13 PM
This is easy to forget ...
Originally Posted by Digitalguy
How about security support? Do you plan to replace all your windows 7 devices by the end of 2019? I'm surprised how people do not consider (or forget) this...
... because all of those devices will be replaced long before 2019. My PC will be a nine-year-old dinosaur in 2019, and will surely be replaced before then ... with a box running Windows 14?
Posted By: Digitalguy Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/03/15 10:54 PM
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
This is easy to forget ...
Originally Posted by Digitalguy
How about security support? Do you plan to replace all your windows 7 devices by the end of 2019? I'm surprised how people do not consider (or forget) this...
... because all of those devices will be replaced long before 2019. My PC will be a nine-year-old dinosaur in 2019, and will surely be replaced before then ... with a box running Windows 14?


Not everyone has old dinasaurs... I have a 2012 ultrabook with an i7 CPU, 8GB of RAM and 256GB SSD running windows 7. It works great and I hope to be using it for quite a few years to come.
Posted By: ElmerJFudd Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/04/15 01:05 AM
The problem with Linux is you don't have all the options you have on the more popular Win and Mac platforms. In DAWs, interfaces (drivers), virtual instruments and the active support of developers with updates, bug fixes, new versions, etc. because they have a paying user base.
Posted By: JoeT Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/04/15 07:48 AM
Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
The problem with Linux is you don't have all the options you have on the more popular Win and Mac platforms. In DAWs, interfaces (drivers), virtual instruments and the active support of developers with updates, bug fixes, new versions, etc. because they have a paying user base.

Linux was quite successful in the educational environment back in the 90s, not because it was that great back then, but because it was cheap (and BSD had a lawsuit). Linux successfully killed every UNIX vendor (Microsoft's competitors) and helped Microsoft to achieve its current market share.

By the end of 90s were there some efforts to establish Linux as a general desktop OS. But Microsoft saved the struggling Apple Inc, so they could have their superior OSX desktop ready by 2001. In the following years, most commercial ISVs abandoned Linux and moved to OSX.

Now all the audio stuff is on OSX and iOS, for some developers it is even the primary platform. It makes no sense from a business standpoint to switch to Linux from there.

The main issue always overlooked here: It's not you (the end consumer), who decides about OS platforms. You choose what you are going to do and what application software you need for that. The independed software vendor (ISV) then decides, what kind of computer and operating system you have to buy to use his products. Most Musicians buy Macs and iPads because of that.
Posted By: Lester Burnham Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/04/15 08:32 AM
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
The problem with Linux is you don't have all the options you have on the more popular Win and Mac platforms. In DAWs, interfaces (drivers), virtual instruments and the active support of developers with updates, bug fixes, new versions, etc. because they have a paying user base.

Linux was quite successful in the educational environment back in the 90s, not because it was that great back then, but because it was cheap (and BSD had a lawsuit). Linux successfully killed every UNIX vendor (Microsoft's competitors) and helped Microsoft to achieve its current market share.

By the end of 90s were there some efforts to establish Linux as a general desktop OS. But Microsoft saved the struggling Apple Inc, so they could have their superior OSX desktop ready by 2001. In the following years, most commercial ISVs abandoned Linux and moved to OSX.

Now all the audio stuff is on OSX and iOS, for some developers it is even the primary platform. It makes no sense from a business standpoint to switch to Linux from there.

The main issue always overlooked here: It's not you (the end consumer), who decides about OS platforms. You choose what you are going to do and what application software you need for that. The independed software vendor (ISV) then decides, what kind of computer and operating system you have to buy to use his products. Most Musicians buy Macs and iPads because of that.


What ARE you talking about with this "Linux successfully killed every UNIX vendor"? 'cos there's not very diplomatic ways of saying that's complete rubbish.

Linux is heavily used in corporates, for scale-out "farms" of servers, but proprietary UNIX OSs have never gone away, and are still heavily used for large UNIX platforms.

What will threaten them, is dominance in the large UNIX platforms - and / or corporates finding they aren't as reliant on large UNIX platforms any more - and that, in turn, because they have changing needs, or one of the other platforms takes up the mantle for big, scaleable, and stable / robust.

In my experience, Linux didn't get the corporate positioning due to it being available to users for free, since many corporates pay for licensed, supported distros. It prevailed in corporates, because of performance, stability, and being able to support the types of software used heavily at the web-y and web application layer(s).

Windows Server OSs weren't taken that seriously in their early years, due to scaling, and historical viewpoints / perceptions of Microsoft's positioning.
Posted By: doremi Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/04/15 04:41 PM
Folks, as the topic starter, let's talk about Windows 10, and its impact on music, privacy, security, etc. Thanks!
Posted By: lolatu Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/06/15 04:48 AM
I'm on Windows 10 now, upgraded from 7. No problems at all. A few minor bugs in the new apps but nothing breaking stuff I already had (save having to re-choose my default apps in some cases). Seems a lot of the settings are more streamlined and better thought-out. The new music app is pretty nice. The app store is something that the Windows desktop has been crying out for... I feel much better about installing software from there than some random site on the internet. Too bad there's not much useful stuff on there yet.

Main objection is that Microsoft is eying up Google and Facebook's business model, and seems intent on spying on you in every way possible. Unless you select "customize settings" during install (which is hidden in a tiny button), you're sending Microsoft all your contacts, calendar items, keyboard input, location, location history (!!), browsing data (!!!), and error diagnostics (your hardware and pretty much everything about your system). It's hard to believe, but here's a screenshot.

Overall prolly worth upgrading.
Posted By: Alexander Borro Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/06/15 11:26 PM
Much like Lolatu, first impression are very good, update 7 pro to 10, in spite of what I said I'd wait, seeing it was via updates, I didn't really want to do a fresh install and there was no rush, I did some more reading and decided to bite the bullet as it seemed straightforward for most. I had that experience as well.

All is working fine on first impression.

Only a couple of extra things I needed to do so far,

1) Reinstall graphics drives for my Nvidia GPU, the windows drivers work fine though, but it got rid of my official Nvidia drivers when updating which wouldn't have worked anyway, I just had to download the windows 10 ones, install, done.

I expect AMD cards too, if you want their official drivers, download them, it has always been that way, but the windows drivers should work too for normal desktop use no problem.

2) Cubase elements would not launch, I don't use a USB licencer for this, it is registered to the hard disk/PC in my case, and you will probably not have this problem if you use Cubase full or artist with a USB licencer, the elicencer program for cubase complained too, I updated that first, then I re-registered Cubase 7 elements no problem.

Worth mentioning that compatibilty issues are listed on the steinberg website and advice to wait for their DAW software, Midi timing issues etc.

That said it did launch fine, made sounds, nothing I immediately noticed but needs more testing. I can live without it for a bit anyway if need be, no rush, may be good time to try reaper if it comes to it.

pianoteq, no problems on first impressions
ivory, no problems on first impressions
kontakt player instruments, no problems on first impressions

That doesn't mean there may be something lurking in there I will come across in the next few days, but so far so good.

Asio drivers no problems for my audio interface also.

I have to hand to them for being a smooth process, overall
Looking good so far thumb

Didn't take much time at all. I recall installing service pack 1 and .net framework updates for win 7 in the past, that took longer smile

Anyone noticed the KDE style window frames and tabs that come on some linux distros ?. Looks like MS were looking at linux desktop styles for inspiration laugh
Posted By: lolatu Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/07/15 03:45 AM
The new look - I like the thinner borders, but I think it's just a little bit too minimalist for me. Colours can serve a useful purpose in zoning off areas of a window. And it's hard on the eyes looking at huge expanses of white.

I did spend quite some time playing around with the scaling function on Display Settings. I recently got a high-resolution second monitor, so I'm running a dual-monitor desktop. Scaling up on the high-res monitor would be handy, because the fonts are rather small to read otherwise. While the scaling can look good, it basically doesn't work when you have two monitors of different dpi. Well, it works, but it'll only look good on your primary monitor (which is selectable). All your apps that aren't DPI-aware will look fuzzy on your second monitor (this includes all the stuff I actually use like Firefox, Office 2010, and everything except a few very recent Microsoft products). So after some frustration, I concluded that tiny was a lesser evil than fuzzy, and turned it off.

Yeah Cubase requires starting the eLicencer in Admin mode, but after it's done whatever it needs to do, Cubase works fine. It was no hassle at all.
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/07/15 12:05 PM
I'm not reading anything about what has changed in Windows 10, aside from some cosmetic changes ... some described as good, some bad. Is there anything of real substance?
Posted By: dire tonic Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/07/15 12:50 PM
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I'm not reading anything about what has changed in Windows 10, aside from some cosmetic changes ... some described as good, some bad. Is there anything of real substance?

Not that I've noticed. A new "better" browser? I'm only running on a DAWless PC for the moment. I got the impression that MS saw win 8 as half-cocked in the way that Millenium and Vista were intermediate to the more reliable XP and win 7 which followed.

I've been happy with win 8 and will leave that on my DAW laptop for now.
Posted By: Alexander Borro Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/07/15 01:28 PM
Nothing stands out so far that I really spotted to say to do it. Windows 7 will be supported for some time yet by MS anyway. No rush.

FWIW, I'd say it's resource management and memory use is at least as good as windows 7 was, from early experiments if not better I get the impression. Then again my PC is plenty fast enough that I don't need to worry about that type of thing.

There is no fear that this upgrade is anything like the jump from XP to Vista, and in that case introducing DirectX for the desktop requirement as well for the first time, for fancier desktop graphics adding a lot to its footprint.

I would say, For those of you that have 7 running fine ( since I skipped 8 ) 10 will run fine too in terms of speed, responsiveness on the same hardware.

I haven't had any apps yet I even need to run in compatibility mode so far.
Posted By: Doritos Flavoured Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/07/15 04:12 PM
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I'm not reading anything about what has changed in Windows 10, aside from some cosmetic changes ... some described as good, some bad. Is there anything of real substance?


does it matter? it's yet another yearly compulsory MS upgrade for world domination

upgrade and play the latest yearly COD with smoother headshots
Posted By: RestfulCargo Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/08/15 01:16 AM
Originally Posted by RestfulCargo
Hello pianoworld forum members. First time poster here. Nice to meet you all.

I use a laptop with Windows 8.1 for displaying sheet music on my piano (through a secondary touch screen monitor). With this in mind I tried Windows 10 recently and was disappointed to see they removed PDF Reader completely. This was my main application for reading music due to its excellent touch screen interface. I guess since Edge now takes care of displaying PDFs (or people install something else) Microsoft thought this program was no longer needed.


Update: I learned that Microsoft moved the Reader App to the Windows Store as a free download. Things are looking up... sort of.

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I'm not reading anything about what has changed in Windows 10, aside from some cosmetic changes ... some described as good, some bad. Is there anything of real substance?


Some things I noticed: At the moment you can't install adblockers to Edge. It appears it is doing some basic filtering but it's not enough. They moved a lot of things around to the "Settings" window. Many mundane things (like for example selecting wallpapers or sounds from a theme pack) have been buried inside a sub menu in Settings. Changing your default browser is particularly tricky this time. It's almost as if they don't want you to find it.

To me it looks like they made the touchscreen interface more difficult to use. I know it's the opposite of what everyone is talking about, so for what it's worth...

In the new Metro Reader App, Microsoft replaced the touchscreen file picker interface with a standard mouse "File Open" dialog. This happens regardless if I am in tablet mode or not. It defeats the purpose of using a touchscreen app in the first place. Now that I think about it I've yet to see the metro "File Open" dialog anywhere in Windows 10. I am not sure but it appears to be gone. It feels like a step back.

While in tablet mode applications launch maximized, but they don't launch fullscreen (or at least I haven't been able to or noticed it myself). This adds the annoyance of having to click on a button on the title bar to switch to full.

While in the subject of tablet mode: Microsoft has made it an "all or nothing" option where you either enable it for all your hardware or not at all. Works if you got a tablet but it doesn't if you got multiple monitors. For example in my setup I have a non touch laptop connected to a touch screen monitor. Windows 8.1 was flexible enough and allow me to use the mouse with the standard desktop interface on the laptop monitor while at the same time use touch gestures on the extended display. Windows 8.1 did this automatically without any configuration on my part. With Windows 10 I can't do that. If I disable table mode then touch gestures are gone. If I enable it then I can't control the non-touch screen like if it was a standard desktop. There is no in between.
Posted By: doremi Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/08/15 06:29 PM
Wikipedia has an excellent entry on Windows 10 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_10
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/08/15 07:42 PM
Thanks for that doremi.
From the article it has become clear that there's nothing there I want or need.
Posted By: anotherscott Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/08/15 08:25 PM
That wiki article doesn't talk about any of the advantages for musicians. Did you see nothing of interest in the gearslutz thread I linked to?

Though it looks like one of the two times I mentioned it, the link didn't work, so here it is again...

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/mus...-thread-post-your-expectations-here.html

Pay particular attention to the posts from the MS rep, Psychlist1972
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/08/15 11:00 PM
Thanks.
I just looked at that slutz thread.
Eleven pages of posts! Too much to read.
Could I impose upon you to summarize ... just the highlights?
Posted By: anotherscott Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/09/15 03:23 AM
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Thanks.
I just looked at that slutz thread.
Eleven pages of posts! Too much to read.
Could I impose upon you to summarize ... just the highlights?

There's a bunch of MIDI/audio stuff, different things will matter to different people. Best thing is just to use the Find command to go right to the posts by Psychlist1972 - skim them, and read the ones that seem most relevant.
Posted By: doremi Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/09/15 08:24 AM
Said MS rep summarized the impact of Windows 10 on music (and more, watch the truly excellent embedded video!) in a keynote at 2015 Summer NAMM http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2...midi-performance-easier-app-development/

Thanks to anotherscott for the hint and especially for his insistence, it sent me off to do the search smile
Posted By: anotherscott Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/09/15 01:40 PM
Thanks for the link, do.

Win10 does look really interesting for musicians. As with any OS upgrade, the most exciting things will probably be new apps that take advantage of what it can do (which means we're going to see new apps or upgrades that will require Win 10, and that may be when more musicians are tempted to upgrade), but there are things there that indicate that even existing apps can benefit.

Having been spoiled by Apple's relative simplicity, I like that this may mean Windows will be less reliant on having to deal with external interfaces, 3rd-party driver software (ASIO), and the additional configuration complexity that can come with them. This may turn Win 10 tablets into more viable "piano modules," with touch screen operation, and without as much physical/visual clutter as you typically get from a laptop and interface. That sounds nicer both in the living room and on stage. (Windows gives you more capable pianos than an Ipad, and Apple doesn't make a Mac tablet.)
Posted By: bill5 Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/10/15 04:26 PM
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Thanks for that doremi.
From the article it has become clear that there's nothing there I want or need.
Likewise. But I pretty much figured that anyway.

Posted By: JoeT Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/10/15 05:43 PM
Originally Posted by dire tonic
I got the impression that MS saw win 8 as half-cocked in the way that Millenium and Vista were intermediate to the more reliable XP and win 7 which followed.

Windows Me had absolutely nothing to do with Windows XP, it was the end result of the abandoned Windows 98 development. The entire codebase was abandoned, because it was a train wreck.

Windows XP was the successor of the quite successful Windows 2000 Professional, which was the successor of Windows NT 4.0 Workstation. Windows 2000 got released at the same time as Windows 98 SE (1999) which was very successful, too.

The main issue with Windows Vista were the high hardware requirements in 2006, which solved themselves by just waiting for the industry to catch up, so Windows Vista SP3 (named Windows 7) could finally start replacing Windows XP in 2009.
Posted By: Kbeaumont Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/10/15 06:17 PM
Windows 2000 was the most stable OS Microsoft ever produced.
Posted By: Digitalguy Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/10/15 08:07 PM
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by dire tonic
I got the impression that MS saw win 8 as half-cocked in the way that Millenium and Vista were intermediate to the more reliable XP and win 7 which followed.

Windows Me had absolutely nothing to do with Windows XP, it was the end result of the abandoned Windows 98 development. The entire codebase was abandoned, because it was a train wreck.

Windows XP was the successor of the quite successful Windows 2000 Professional, which was the successor of Windows NT 4.0 Workstation. Windows 2000 got released at the same time as Windows 98 SE (1999) which was very successful, too.

The main issue with Windows Vista were the high hardware requirements in 2006, which solved themselves by just waiting for the industry to catch up, so Windows Vista SP3 (named Windows 7) could finally start replacing Windows XP in 2009.


2000 was not a consumer OS, but it's true that XP was based entirely on its kernel (in turn based on Windows NT) while Millenium based on 98's kernel. But XP, contrary to 2000, was both a consumer and professional OS (with windows server being the successor of 2000 for the server segment of win 2000), so it was also the successor of Millennium.

It's true that the bad reputation of Vista and 8 is exaggerated. But clearly there were mistakes made by MS. The hardware requirements of Vista were a big jump, but afterwards MS learnt the lesson and kept them virtually unchanged until windows 10.... and there were also a lot of security policies that irritated consumers (things improved in 7). Windows 8 was made to push everyone towards touch, which was a big mistake, but it also had some improvements over 7. Windows 10 is was 8 should have been.
Posted By: doremi Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/11/15 01:45 AM
Do you work for a company with an IT department or an IT guy/gal on staff? Or are you an IT professional yourself?

I am curious about the uptake of Windows 10 at companies, thanks!
Posted By: TonyB Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/11/15 02:00 AM
Originally Posted by doremi
Anyone made the jump?


Just today, I did the update on my Toshiba KIRA i7 Ultrabook. It took about an hour total, but I had to find and install a replacement for the Microsoft GS Synth. I am not really interested in whatever apps come with Windows. I use Melodyne Editor, Transcribe!, Home Concert Extreme, Synthesia, Forte 6, and a few others. All seem to work OK.

I have used Linux exclusively since the early 90s until I got the Ultrabook and need Windows support for the Camera and mic. The current crop of music software for Windows is pretty darn impressive, though the Open Source community has some great things going too. For my current needs, the Windows software I have is perfect. I really don't much care what comes with Windows as long as these apps run properly.

Tony

Posted By: Digitalguy Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/11/15 08:36 AM
Originally Posted by doremi
Do you work for a company with an IT department or an IT guy/gal on staff? Or are you an IT professional yourself?

I am curious about the uptake of Windows 10 at companies, thanks!


Not sure if you are asking me. However, I am self-employed now (not working for a specific company) but according to my experience, companies and public sector entities tend to keep their OS as long as possible. A lot of them changed from XP pro to Windows 7 pro only because of the end of support last year (and some are even paying to keep XP supported).
Remember that companies use volume licences, and volume licences are not part of the free offer for Windows 10, so personally I don't see any big uptake from corporate entities. Those that have moved to 7 will stay with it till it's dead (January 2020) and some even after that...
Posted By: doremi Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/11/15 04:17 PM
Thanks for the comments, Digitalguy! Anyone knowledgeable about the uptake of Windows 10 at companies is welcome to comment.

My own thoughts are as follows. Windows 10 has a privacy setting window with 13 privacy setting subwindows. Each privacy setting subwindow has up to 16 privacy settings and more. The more apps you have, the more apps can access your private data for 'the best, personalized computing experience', unless you opt out, working your way through many dozens of privacy settings. The default opt in settings is thus VERY intrusive. Did you know that you have an 'advertising ID'? Will all your apps patch their security defects? Are you sure that your many dozens of personalized settings leave no unintended holes? It takes only one hole to leak out your 'advertising ID' containing your private data. I don't think that any company (or privacy/security conscious individuals) will like that (and more things like that).

On the other hand, Microsoft and other Internet giants can argue that they are giving us the tools to control our own privacy and security settings, which tools have long been necessitated by the facts-of-life of contemporary computing anyway.

Anyway, up for discussion smile
Posted By: JoeT Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/11/15 08:42 PM
Originally Posted by doremi
My own thoughts are as follows. Windows 10 has a privacy setting window with 13 privacy setting subwindows. Each privacy setting subwindow has up to 16 privacy settings and more. The more apps you have, the more apps can access your private data for 'the best, personalized computing experience', unless you opt out, working your way through many dozens of privacy settings. The default opt in settings is thus VERY intrusive.

The main issues are telemetry (means phoning home what your computer is doing) and forced online updates (means full remote control). Both with no option to opt-out.

The advertising & tracking stuff is a side issue.
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/11/15 11:55 PM
You can opt out by using a network filter.
Posted By: doremi Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/12/15 02:24 PM
Blocking Windows Update goes against MS maintainance plans for the OS. For the vast majority of computer users, you would be worse off in the long run, IMHO.
---------------
The privacy/security issue goes far beyond what is going on between computer users and MS. There are thousands of third party apps (if not more, the numbers are ever growing) that by default have access to your private data. Over time, these apps will positively develop vulnerabilities exploited by black hatters. This privacy/security issue is far worse than that with MS, IMHO.

I think that market forces pressurize Microsoft and other Internet giants to offer us computer users the most features by default, and with it come the most privacy/security issues. It is then up to us to opt out and do so correctly, finding our way through many dozens of privacy/security settings.

I just hope that MS does not develop into something like Facebook when it comes to privacy/security issues shocked shocked shocked
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/12/15 11:45 PM
There's no harm in blocking Windows updates. Just block them with a filter ... then keep tabs on the Windows 7 update in the news, and ignore the Windows 10 stuff. Then manually download the necessary Windows 7 update files and install them.

Yes, that's tedious. But if MS is going to force me to move to Win 10, that's what I'll do.

In the meantime I'm free of Windows 10. I've disabled that GWX demon, so I'm no longer seeing the Win 10 update nag in the tray.
Posted By: doremi Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/13/15 02:59 PM
The issue started long before Windows 7. By then, MS knew more about your computer than you do, Google knew more about your browsing habits than you do, etc. Things are just getting worse.

Anyway, I let others talk about the issue and positive experiences with Windows 10 smile
Posted By: Alexander Borro Re: OT: Windows 10 - 08/13/15 04:51 PM
Overall, so far so good for me, only some small niggles for music making so far I found, but nothing to want me go back to 7.

Cubase 7: Not a 100%, some here say it is okay but the site does state some issues which I too am finding, very occasionally it throws some midi timing wobbles, as if the notes isn't quite timed/triggered right. I hammered Cubase good 'n' proper the last few nights and on the whole it has been good enough to use but it has done that a few times.

Pianoteq: Occasionally does not release my sound device properly, when you run it no other app in windows can use that same sound device, that's normal, but when you close it should release that device to be used by other apps in windows, that bit it doesn't always do, but sometimes. a Quick unplug from the USB port sorts it anyway, so no biggy. Perhaps pianoteq will sort it out in an update if it has something to do with their code. I'll report it.

kontakt player: complained once with an runtime error on closing when running the metronome, no big deal. They do state they are doing compatibility testing so no doubt their win 10 updates will sort out any issues. No problem in using it however for playing anything that I found so far.

None of the above things ever happened in 7 for me. My ASIO drivers may be to blame for pianoteq issue, I don't know if it would happen with my sound card or other devices I own, or with asio4all, so far untested, but only pianoteq does this, Cubase, kontakt do not.

On the whole happy camper with the upgrade still. No serious show stoppers for me anyway.

I don't like the minimalist look/theme much I must admit, but that is of little importance to me smile
Posted By: doremi Re: OT: Windows 10 - 10/22/15 03:08 PM
I finally upgraded to Windows 10 on one of my not-important computers. I like it so far, but at the same time, I get the impression that Windows 10 is not ready for productive day-job type of use yet.

Anyone here uses Windows 10 for his/her day-gig?
How ready is Windows 10 for business/office use?
Posted By: Lester Burnham Re: OT: Windows 10 - 10/22/15 03:19 PM
My parents updated their laptop to Windows 10, caused problems and was essentially unusable. It passed all the checks in the suitability verification thing.

I suspect the issue was with driver support, but there was nothing available from either the laptop manufacturer (HP), the graphics chip vendor (Intel), and the windows session wasn't responsive enough to be able to properly check Windows Update.

And who's brilliant idea was it to prevent Windows Update from working in safe mode (with network support), when in Windows 10 you're pretty much forced that way for supportable drivers?
Posted By: peterws Re: OT: Windows 10 - 10/22/15 04:11 PM
I guess tjhe longdr you leave it, the better itll be when you do go down the W 10 path. Did ours this morning. O K so far. . .
Posted By: Gatsbee13 Re: OT: Windows 10 - 10/22/15 10:40 PM
curious... since were on the topic of MS.. anyone interested in the new Surface Book/Pro4? i know its not out yet but both devices, especially the Surface Book, look pretty cool.
Posted By: Lester Burnham Re: OT: Windows 10 - 10/22/15 11:00 PM
Originally Posted by peterws
I guess tjhe longdr you leave it, the better itll be when you do go down the W 10 path. Did ours this morning. O K so far. . .

Think there's a lot of truth, there, especially for slightly older machines - perhaps especially laptops.

My laptop that I just went with the W10 upgrade when it first nagged me, went fine, it's about a year and a half old, and originally came with Windows 8 installed.

My parents laptop, that they eventually gave into the nag screen, is probably another year or two older and came wuth Windows 7 Premium.

Possibly in the near future driver support will improve for it. And perhaps a clean install from scratch may have worked, but that would have been considerably more work in terms of app and configuration work following a new install.

As somebody who's worked in IT for decades, Microsoft should have engineered more thorough checks in the suitability check thing, and also sort out the whole disabling Windows Update when booting into safe mode (with networking) on W10.
Posted By: Rickster Re: OT: Windows 10 - 10/22/15 11:24 PM
Hi All,

I don't post here much, but saw this OT thread and it caught my interest...

I also use Win 7 and I like it fine. I purchased a new PC a few years ago when MS stopped supporting Win XP and opted for Win 7 rather than 8.0 or 8.1 at the time.

Here is my question; I use Avast internet security (the paid version) and whenever I do a virus scan, I get a message that there are a bunch of files that cannot be scanned. That didn't start until the Win 10 offerings were automatically downloaded on my PC through windows updates, I suppose. Anyway, I did a search on the internet and from what I read, all the files that Avast cannot scan are the windows 10 files.

So, it appears that MS is being a bit aggressive, it seems to me, downloading all those win 10 files (though dormant), that my AV can't scan. I honestly don't like the fact that it seems to be messing with my Avast antivirus. All the files that Avast says it cannot scan start with "C:\$Windows." and have "SafeOS" in the file.

Anyway, like most here, I'm reluctant to download all of Windows 10 because my current PC and OS works so well.

Any expert IT comments appreciated. smile

Thanks,

Rick
Posted By: sullivang Re: OT: Windows 10 - 10/23/15 12:21 AM
No problems here on my ~6 year old Dell M4500 laptop.

Greg.
Posted By: lolatu Re: OT: Windows 10 - 10/23/15 05:39 AM
Windows 10 download kept failing on my desktop until I disabled antivirus (windows security essentials) temporarily. I think it was because it takes so long to scan the files. MS already know the files are virus free, so maybe they make them unscannable just to make the upgrade run more smoothly.

Or maybe Cortana was getting flagged as spyware, because that's what it is.

Also LOL at paying for antivirus
Posted By: doremi Re: OT: Windows 10 - 11/22/15 02:15 AM
Windows 10 had its first big update since the official launch in July. The big update was earlier this month, the so called November update.

Earlier today, Microsoft suddenly and tacitly pulled the November update.

Pressed for answers, Microsoft said in the past hour that the November update was not really pulled, but will be rolled out gradually via Windows Update.

That leaves open questions, see e.g. http://www.winbeta.org/news/microsoft-has-pulled-the-windows-10-november-update-from-windows-update

FWIW, as to myself, I am glad that I have installed Windows 10 on a trial computer. Windows-as-a-service is a new game even for a giant corporation.
Posted By: R_B Re: OT: Windows 10 - 11/22/15 11:40 AM
If the hardware vendors could just UNHOOK from M/S we would be free from that ~$100 or so premium that we pay for the "free with the hardware" O/S.
{bundled, arguably illegally}

It is incredibly difficult to just delete the junk that "comes with" new platforms, 30 day trial versions of worthless virus scanners, office software,etc.
It seems to be an integral part of the "system", it is implied that deletion of the M/S stuff somehow "BREAKS" the new machine, or at least voids the warranty (worthless though that may be).
For some time now I have merely booted a Linux CD, re-partitioned the disc to squeeze Windows down and installed Linux - but for some reason I never get around to deleting the Windows partition.
I used to keep it around "in case", but I keep asking myself in case of what ?
Open Office handles ALL the "business" file formats I need, Ubuntu Studio has just about every music/art app I could ever use. I don't think there is an application that I want that doesn't run on Linux, so I am left wondering WHY I keep Windows around.

W_a_a_S ??
Windoze "WAAS" Was.
Posted By: peterws Re: OT: Windows 10 - 11/22/15 11:51 AM
Another thing. Some stuff like video auditors wont work with windowx 10. . . Im back to 7.
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: OT: Windows 10 - 11/22/15 02:29 PM
This is just drivel:
Originally Posted by R_B
If the hardware vendors could just UNHOOK from M/S we would be free from that ~$100 or so premium that we pay for the "free with the hardware" O/S. {bundled, arguably illegally}
Windows is not free. Nothing is. If you don't want something, don't buy it. So why the rant?

And the bundling is not illegal. Why, I've had tires "bundled" onto every car I've ever bought. And "Windows" bundled with every house.

Originally Posted by R_B
It is incredibly difficult to just delete the junk that "comes with" new platforms, 30 day trial versions of worthless virus scanners, office software,etc.
It **is** simple. Just uninstall. Or even simpler: Don't run the unwanted software. Easy.

Originally Posted by R_B
it is implied that deletion of the M/S stuff somehow "BREAKS" the new machine, or at least voids the warranty (worthless though that may be).
I've seen no such implication. Where do you get that from?

Originally Posted by R_B
I don't think there is an application that I want that doesn't run on Linux, so I am left wondering WHY I keep Windows around.
My experience is quite different. My software won't run on Linux. And the substitute "equivalent" software is not at all equivalent, and not compatible. Big problem.

But if you insist on using Linux, fine. I wonder (as do you) just why you keep the Windows installation in place "just in case". (Just in case you feel the need to raise a rant?) smile
Posted By: Digitalguy Re: OT: Windows 10 - 11/23/15 12:04 AM
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
This is just drivel:
Originally Posted by R_B
If the hardware vendors could just UNHOOK from M/S we would be free from that ~$100 or so premium that we pay for the "free with the hardware" O/S. {bundled, arguably illegally}
Windows is not free. Nothing is. If you don't want something, don't buy it. So why the rant?

And the bundling is not illegal. Why, I've had tires "bundled" onto every car I've ever bought. And "Windows" bundled with every house.

Originally Posted by R_B
It is incredibly difficult to just delete the junk that "comes with" new platforms, 30 day trial versions of worthless virus scanners, office software,etc.
It **is** simple. Just uninstall. Or even simpler: Don't run the unwanted software. Easy.

Originally Posted by R_B
it is implied that deletion of the M/S stuff somehow "BREAKS" the new machine, or at least voids the warranty (worthless though that may be).
I've seen no such implication. Where do you get that from?

Originally Posted by R_B
I don't think there is an application that I want that doesn't run on Linux, so I am left wondering WHY I keep Windows around.
My experience is quite different. My software won't run on Linux. And the substitute "equivalent" software is not at all equivalent, and not compatible. Big problem.

But if you insist on using Linux, fine. I wonder (as do you) just why you keep the Windows installation in place "just in case". (Just in case you feel the need to raise a rant?) smile


Absolutely agree with MacMacMac on every point....
Posted By: sullivang Re: OT: Windows 10 - 12/24/15 03:16 AM
Well now I do have a problem - audio clicks & pops that I can't get rid of. Problem goes away if I switch to the integrated audio interface, using ASIO4ALL. May have started after the most recent major Win10 update. My audio interface is the old M-Audio Fast Track Ultra, now supported by Avid. Have sought assistance.

Greg.
Posted By: sullivang Re: OT: Windows 10 - 12/24/15 07:20 AM
I found the problem - I'm a bloody idiot.

I was using the power adaptor from a different laptop - still a Dell, but a different model. The laptop had detected that I was not using the correct adaptor, and limited the performance/power consumption to protect itself from the bloody idiot user.

I very nearly went the whole of 2015 without making a mistake! Damn.

Greg.
Posted By: doremi Re: OT: Windows 10 - 07/11/16 07:23 PM
18 days left for the free upgrade to Windows 10 if you are on Windows 7 or Windows 8.1

Me? 1 machine has been upgraded to Windows 10, 1 is to remain at Windows 7, still can't decide on whether or not to upgrade for several other machines LOL
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: OT: Windows 10 - 07/11/16 08:04 PM
My work laptop was moved to Win 10. Works like a charm. But I don't run pianos on that laptop!

At home my pianos are on Win 7.

Will Win 10 run those pianos properly? I'm not ready to take a chance.

So ... this is my twelfth home computer on which I've done no OS upgrades. It's not worth the risk.
Posted By: Frédéric L Re: OT: Windows 10 - 07/11/16 08:12 PM
I have multiple virtual pianos on my computer and they all work fine on Windows 10.
Posted By: Digitalguy Re: OT: Windows 10 - 07/11/16 11:16 PM
I have 6 windows PCs (actually more than that, but I don't include 3 windows atom tablets/convertibles, one of which however I upgraded to windows 10 or a couple of older laptops with XP which I don't use anymore)
Of these 6 active and powerful enough machines, two were moved to windows 10 immediately (one is an old 2010 AMD laptop that I now only use for test purposes) and the other is a quad core i7 desktop replacement from 2014.
The 4 others were not upgraded and are:
- Surface pro 3: windows 8.1 (I actually had moved to windows 10 but just went back to 8.1 as "system and compressed memory" was hogging the CPU constantly and causing the fan to be always on. Now it's silent again. I use it for virtual pianos especially when I am away from home.
- An old quad core laptop from 2009 (one of the first) which I upgraded with 2 SSDs and that is now only devoted to virtual pianos. It will stay with Windows 7.
- An i7 ultrabook from 2012 with windows 7, which I upgraded with a 1TB SSD and now dual boots Windows 7 and 10 (I can have free Windows licences with the University I work for).
- Another quad core i7 from 2013 which is my main machine, which for some reason refuses to upgrade, so I ended up dualbooting as well (8.1 + 10), as I don't want to do a clean install (too many softwares including giveaways I don't want to lose)
So with upgrades and dual boots I have Windows 10 in all my active machines except the 2 I mainly use for music (well I also use the ultrabook sometimes and actually it will replace my old quad core at some point in the future when I retire it).
Posted By: dire tonic Re: OT: Windows 10 - 07/13/16 10:31 AM
Originally Posted by Digitalguy
I have 6 windows PCs (actually more than that

- and that's it? All I see in your post is a description of your vast PC wealth with no feedback at all about win 10 itself.
Posted By: dire tonic Re: OT: Windows 10 - 07/13/16 10:39 AM
FWIW, I'm going to do the upgrade today. The freebie for most users, win 7 or later, will be unavailable after the 29th July.

It looks fairly benign to me. You can opt out of pretty much all of the MS data collection, all your apps and data are left in place and you have 30 days to change your mind, reverting to whatever you had before. The bit I'm not sure about is system updates which I believe are non-negotiable - you have to have them. If that turns out not to be at a time of your own choosing then I guess temporarily disabling the internet connection would be a work-around for those in mid-project.
Posted By: Lester Burnham Re: OT: Windows 10 - 07/13/16 10:54 AM
Originally Posted by dire tonic
FWIW, I'm going to do the upgrade today. The freebie for most users, win 7 or later, will be unavailable after the 29th July.

It looks fairly benign to me. You can opt out of pretty much all of the MS data collection, all your apps and data are left in place and you have 30 days to change your mind, reverting to whatever you had before. The bit I'm not sure about is system updates which I believe are non-negotiable - you have to have them. If that turns out not to be at a time of your own choosing then I guess temporarily disabling the internet connection would be a work-around for those in mid-project.

FWIW, my own, main laptop (that is reasonably contemporary and shipped with Windows 8) it was a smooth and seemless upgrade to Windows 10, as was an identical laptop I upgraded for another family member.

My parent's slightly older laptop, running Windows 7, was troublesome, and I ended up rolling it back to Windows 7 - as issues with graphic chipset drivers was problematic, and wouldn't resolve by Windows update, and there were no other drivers available.

I'm going to give it another go, before the deadline, just to see if the driver situation has been addressed in the interim, if not, I'll just roll it back to Win7.
Posted By: dire tonic Re: OT: Windows 10 - 07/13/16 11:10 AM
Originally Posted by Lester Burnham
My parent's slightly older laptop, running Windows 7, was troublesome, and I ended up rolling it back to Windows 7 - as issues with graphic chipset drivers was problematic, and wouldn't resolve by Windows update, and there were no other drivers available.

I'm going to give it another go, before the deadline, just to see if the driver situation has been addressed in the interim, if not, I'll just roll it back to Win7.

Yes, I can see that being an issue for win7 where manufacturers have been or are being lazy about drivers. Both the laptop and the desktop I use for music (downloading win 10 as I write!) are win 8 so I'm expecting minimum fuss. I do have a much older win 7 laptop which took to win 10 without problems but then again, there's nothing on it except browsing and a couple of other apps. Still, the roll-back makes this worth trying again, as you say.
Posted By: JoeT Re: OT: Windows 10 - 07/13/16 11:41 AM
Originally Posted by dire tonic
The freebie for most users, win 7 or later, will be unavailable after the 29th July.

I wouldn't bet on that. smile

It comes free with a new PC anyway. One one which it's guaranteed to work on without issues.
Posted By: R_B Re: OT: Windows 10 - 07/13/16 01:57 PM
Does Win10 "upgrade" interfere in any way with the boot loader and other partitions ?
i.e. what if the MBR has GRUB that points to various partitions with REAL O/Ss on them ?
Does it wipe the whole disc clean for its own use ?
Posted By: BusyWait Re: OT: Windows 10 - 07/13/16 02:30 PM
The Windows 10 upgrade replaces ("updates") whatever existing boot loader you have. If you are dual booting different versions of Windows then it will spot the others and add them as options at boot time. For booting to non-Windows OS you'll have to reinstall your previous boot loader after the upgrade.

The upgrader does not wipe the disk clean for it's own use. (You can download an install ISO and wipe the disk if you want, but that isn't how the upgrade works).
Posted By: dire tonic Re: OT: Windows 10 - 07/13/16 02:31 PM
No problems at all here. I had to uninstall then re-install the elicenser for Cubase but everything else, all libraries (Ravenscroft, Ivory, CFX, Kontakt) are running without any hitch I can see. Same with a cursory look at my other apps, no problems. I'm not so keen on the new 'Edge' browser, mainly for the lack of simple navigation but iexplorer 11 is included so I'll stick with that for now. Apart from the newer, flatter graphics, win 8 users will feel immediately at home, I think.

Originally Posted by R_B
Does Win10 "upgrade" interfere in any way with the boot loader and other partitions ?
i.e. what if the MBR has GRUB that points to various partitions with REAL O/Ss on them ?
Does it wipe the whole disc clean for its own use ?

Apart from a new recovery partition at the end of the drive which is there for roll-back should you need it, the partition layout looks unchanged from the prior 8.1 OS. I've no idea how the upgrade would deal with a multi-boot system. I don't think it will allow you to install a fresh win 10 alongside your existing OS, if that's what you mean.
Posted By: R_B Re: OT: Windows 10 - 07/13/16 04:02 PM
No, I meant Linux and mac partitions.
e.g. For someone with a mac that has a Win7 partition.

From Busywait's reply it seems that upgrading the Win7 partition would destroy the mac partition - and most likely any Linux partitions, e.g. system and swap.
Posted By: R_B Re: OT: Windows 10 - 07/13/16 04:20 PM
This;
http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/...ows/d7ca80ce-96b0-4f0a-9a8e-4038ded592b2

seems to answer my question, at least for SOME users - others had difficulties, knowledge of partition tables and boot loaders got them through.

So, the answer seems to be that Linux partitions are left alone, although there may be some fairly obscure mucking around of the partition table, resulting in One having to find the boot partition.
Recoverable by a competent Linux user, e.g. if you have shrunk windoze to create space for a Linux partition and gone through that install you can probably handle this laugh
Posted By: peterws Re: OT: Windows 10 - 07/13/16 06:38 PM
I win 10 on my 7 desktop. Not old, but a previous generation when I bought it. Consequently the upgrade isn't clever. A lot of stuff didn't work on it, nor could we get our oldish heads round it.

So off it went. Now, Windows 7 upgrades won't take, nor would they previously before we installed.

Time to get a man in. . . But I rather fancy an Apple with the big screen. Very smart!
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